Kyiv

[QUOTE=Mystery77; 1161094]I met some diamonds in Kiev. You are 100% Some real cool working girls / hookers.

Also I find ultimately even though strippers they want a holiday, or more cash. In the end they in general prefer more alpha or masculine traits come end. Some action, someone to adventure with, someone that won't take to much shit. Though seekings holes in your armour is literally a game to some more experienced negative based strippers. & the main weapon they have against you in the end, is the emotional connections that have been placed over time.

Eliciting emotions is a key characteristic when dating experienced players, actually falsely making an argument. Or crying. Nobody loves me, or what the fuck ever. Getting you invested emotionally seriously. While on her part it is but an act. So you have this big fight & think thats it I'm out of here! Then the flip comes just before the door closes, follows you down the street. Crying I'm so sorry I love you, please don't leave me, it's not me! The boss sends me out, or its his fault her fault. You get the idea.

& this is key people. Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to there level, & then beat you with experience. & that also goes for educated idiots as well, I lost but I was right. I don't understand. It does not compute. [/QUOTE]Too many stories from guys thinking with their d*ck, instead of their big head, and then being surprised when things turn to sh*t. PAY ATTENTION to the woman in front of you and stop gushing over her physical appearance. There's an American saying,"Fool, act like you've been here before." Some guys turn stupid when an attractive woman is talking to them and they fail to notice what's ACTUALLY happening. If you don't have the "stones" to totally control that interaction when dealing with party girls / strippers / professional players, then you are IN OVER YOUR HEAD. The guys they choose to f*ck in their personal lives (smile) are not following them around like love struck puppy dogs hoping to get a piece. The guys they CHOOSE to f*ck are the type of men that can replace them with minimal effort, while still being charming, fun, cool mother f*ckers.

Guys, you're in a strip club. They are PROFESSIONALS at flirting. It's what they do. Why on earth would someone think eye contact from a STRIPPER means she's totally into you? WTF! She's into you when she's already f*cked you twice and is pushing for more. They've had more experience than most men can even fathom and are master manipulators (strippers, club queens, professional sugar babies, etc.) They're VERY good at doing just enough to get a guy to jump through hoops if he isn't already; which is one reason why the interaction can turn cold quickly. They're also masters of the "takeaway". (Poor guy is thinking,"if I do more for her, then maybe she'll give me what I want".) Nope. These girls do it so often that the behavior is on autopilot. (I've had to verbally smack more than a few women for treating me like a "mark". Shuts down autopilot so then they appreciate "fun, cool, and charming". Consequently, if you behave this way with "normal" women without the autopilot B. S, you come across as an arrogant jerk.

Ultimately, if she isn't putting in the effort on some level to move the interaction forward, then you're S. O. L, just a means-to-an-end.

I am flattered that my prose was sufficiently elegant to the quoted, and I prefer not to engage in 2-way discussions, but I think this is simply a matter of a misunderstanding. I hope nobody thinks this discussion is between someone who has in interested in increasing sex tourism and someone who want to prevent it.

I think the difference of opinion depends on the definition of the word 'supermodel'. What is a 'supermodel'? Think of Marisa, Miranda, Adriana, etc. A 'supermodel' is simply a woman who gets an exorbitant amount of money for doing what others do for a lot less, and many do for free: to show off her bodies or to show off clothes on their bodies. So, why do they get so much money? It is NOT because they are more beautiful! Sure they are beautiful, just as beautiful as many other regular models. In most cases, this 'supermodel' status takes several years to achieve, and these woman are NOT unlike every other woman in the planet; they do NOT get more beautiful as they get older. They were actually more beautiful when they started, when they were 18 or younger. The reason they get some much money is due to clever marketing, reputation, seizing the opportunity, good make-up, hair and other support staff, and plain old luck.

It is the same among working girls. Some of them have figured out how to get an exorbitant amount of money for their services. How they got there? Well, perhaps they are a little smarter or more experienced. They work at 'high end' places; they approach only high rollers; they make sure they look their best when they are working; they work under 'favourable' light conditions; l they use heavy make-up; they wear high heels; they truly convince themselves and behave as if they are :elite' companions; they invest on cosmetic procedures; they know how to appeal to male fantasies. Are they more beautiful? No, they just have better marketing.

People interested in spending $500 a pop (all costs included) can easily stay home. An 'elite' companion in London, Paris, New York, or any other major city will cost about that much. Yes, you can also pay far more. They beauty about Kiev, and most of Eastern Europe for that matter, is that you can get the same type of girl for a fraction of the cost. If there were not this abundance of beautiful women, then people (like us) would not travel there to meet them.

On a nice summer day, in any city in Easter Europe, including Kiev, there are hundreds of beautiful women littering the streets. The difference with North America and some other parts of Europe? They are slim; they are elegant; they are feminine; they are sexy. You can go to Rio and pay $300 or more for a PROFESIONAL 'supermodel', or you can just stay home. Alternatively, you can have a perfectly beautiful 18 year-old student for under $100 who, in the back of her head, still hopes this meeting might turn into a real relationship, and will give you a great time.

But. Your own experience will tell the tale. Just make sure you do nto put all your efforts into one strategy, or the other.

[QUOTE=Drgn; 1161153]Too many stories from guys .....[/QUOTE]Right on the money as usual Drgn.

Many guys here seem to remember that stripping (as pro sex for that matter) is all about role-playing. That's live theater, that's all.

[QUOTE=FamaIt; 1157238]Hey guys,

Ok so I have booked Hotel Rus for my trip. The prices had gone up at $125 / night from last weeks $80. Aw well. Would post a FR of my trip when done.

In the meantime, if anyone has any suggestion for another hotel which is cheap then let me know.

Thanks so much for your help![/QUOTE]If you want there is slavutich hotel, not is the best, but sure have the best price, with 40$ a night can have a good room. Found in google slavutic hotel Kiev.

[QUOTE=Prosal; 1161179]Right on the money as usual Drgn.

Many guys here seem to remember that stripping (as pro sex for that matter) is all about role-playing. That's live theater, that's all. [/QUOTE]Read "to forget". Ooooops. (smilie)

[QUOTE=Prosal; 1161179]Right on the money as usual Drgn.

Many guys here seem to remember that stripping (as pro sex for that matter) is all about role-playing. That's live theater, that's all. [/QUOTE]Thanks for the nod, Prosal.

AAARGH! I just lost a long post because "I wasn't logged in"! Crap! Oh well, here it is again:

PLEASE lend me your experience. I have a lot of questions and just don't want to be ripped off or disappointed. Here is my situation:

I live one block off K Street and will be here on business for months. I'm working on my Russian but that will take some time. I'm English only for now. I can spend maybe $1500 a month on this comfortably, so I have to make my money count!

Here's my questions:

Where to find girls? You all seem to like clubs. I don't, but I'll go there if that's the best place to troll for girls. Is the consensus here that is where you will find the best girls and the best sex? How about just finding a reliable cab driver? Or (my preference) a web site like Mamba? Is Mamba the best website? Last, what about Escort services? Which one is best? I'm looking for advantages / disadvantages here.

Where to do it? I'd prefer my apartment, but is that wise? She could bring her friends to rip me off. Is security an issue? How about of she spends the night with me? Some of you have done this and I guess you weren't ripped off. Is it a good idea, though?

What? I like oral to completion (swallowing). Is that hard to find? Can I ask for it up front, or is considered rude? What is the best way to ask? How much should it cost?

When? Is it cheaper on weekdays? How about during the day? Some of the escort services seem to drop prices in the day.

How long? Is one hour not enough? Obviously the longer the better but let's be honest I'm not going to fall in love. Yet I don't want to feel rushed. You all seem to think 1. 5 hours is minimum. When does the clock start? DO you say when she walks in your room, OK, it's 1AM, my time starts now?

How much? I asked before, but someone posted don't pay until service is rendered. I agree, but do girls object to this? Is it customary?

Thanks for any advice in advance. I will reciprocate when I get some experience of my own. I will be calling a girl from Mamba today who says she will swallow for $100 unless I hear someone give me the red flag here.

Oh, one last thing: what do girls mean when they say "needs sponsor"?

[blue]=============================================

[b][u]Compose Long Reports in Word Processor[/u][/b]

Greetings Gentlemen,

I strongly suggest to everyone who is writing a long report that they write it in a word processing program first, then proofread and spell check, then save it as file on their computer, [u[AND[/u] [u]THEN[/u] copy and paste it into the forum.

With this method, there is no danger of losing your work, and besides, it's easier to write in a real word procession program first. Even if you're in an Internet Cafe computer with no word processing program installed, you can always use Notepad or WordPad.

Thanks,

Jackson[/blue]

AAARGH! I just lost a long post because "I wasn't logged in"! Crap! Oh well, here it is again:

PLEASE lend me your experience. I have a lot of questions and just don't want to be ripped off or disappointed. Here is my situation:

I live one block off K Street and will be here on business for months. I'm working on my Russian but that will take some time. I'm English only for now. I can spend maybe $1500 a month on this comfortably, so I have to make my money count!

Here's my questions:

Where to find girls? You all seem to like clubs. I don't, but I'll go there if that's the best place to troll for girls. Is the consensus here that is where you will find the best girls and the best sex? How about just finding a reliable cab driver? Or (my preference) a web site like Mamba? Is Mamba the best website? Last, what about Escort services? Which one is best? I'm looking for advantages / disadvantages here.

Where to do it? I'd prefer my apartment, but is that wise? She could bring her friends to rip me off. Is security an issue? How about of she spends the night with me? Some of you have done this and I guess you weren't ripped off. Is it a good idea, though?

What? I like oral to completion (swallowing). Is that hard to find? Can I ask for it up front, or is considered rude? What is the best way to ask? How much should it cost?

When? Is it cheaper on weekdays? How about during the day? Some of the escort services seem to drop prices in the day.

How long? Is one hour not enough? Obviously the longer the better but let's be honest I'm not going to fall in love. Yet I don't want to feel rushed. You all seem to think 1. 5 hours is minimum. When does the clock start? DO you say when she walks in your room, OK, it's 1AM, my time starts now?

How much? I asked before, but someone posted don't pay until service is rendered. I agree, but do girls object to this? Is it customary?

Thanks for any advice in advance. I will reciprocate when I get some experience of my own. I will be calling a girl from Mamba today who says she will swallow for $100 unless I hear someone give me the red flag here.

[blue]=============================================

[b][u]Compose Long Reports in Word Processor[/u][/b]

Greetings Gentlemen,

I strongly suggest to everyone who is writing a long report that they write it in a word processing program first, then proofread and spell check, then save it as file on their computer, [u[AND[/u] [u]THEN[/u] copy and paste it into the forum.

With this method, there is no danger of losing your work, and besides, it's easier to write in a real word procession program first. Even if you're in an Internet Cafe computer with no word processing program installed, you can always use Notepad or WordPad.

Thanks,

Jackson[/blue]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]151786[/ATTACH]

There are probably far more cracking (the best?) EE chicks in London now than going through all the hassle and expense of traveling. The attached babe is 200 quid / hour and in my view they do not come much hotter! So overall it's cheaper. BTW this girl is genuine and comes highly recommended. Just perfect.

Hi having visited fkk clubs in germany frequently over the last few years and being based in england I am now considering a venture further east into Kiev to hopefully sample some of the beauties there. I have read the forum and have a few questions which I would appreciate help with.

1) Only liking to go with a girl that I can first of all see ie NOT internet or mamba or agencies etc from what I have read.

Rio seems to be my best bet. It will be my first time in ukraine, I will be staying for around 6/7 nights so do not mind.

Paying more to get the works, as it will be my holiday too. Of course nothing is 100 percent guaranteed anywhere.

2) With regards to Rio club I am of egyptian origin but born in england. Is there any form of anti foreigner ie as I am of.

Middle eastern appearance would this be a potential block to gaining access into the club due to face control. In some.

German clubs for example only white german looking men are admitted. If this is or is not an issue could someone

Confirm having seen middle eastern / turkish looking men in the club. To fly in from england and then be refused entry would be a killer in Rio.

3) Is a smart shirt and trousers / shoes ok or do you need a suit blazer ie even smarter for face control / entrance?

4) Are solid gold / millenium / premier palace cabaret the best alternative strip clubs to Rio for girl beauty and ease of dealings / take outs etc?

5) Finally I understand at Rio 300dollars is for 4 hours? Can it be for longer at this price or do the girls have to be back for 5am? Thanks alot for all replies mohab

[QUOTE=Fox7717; 1161743]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]151786[/ATTACH]

There are probably far more cracking (the best?) EE chicks in London now than going through all the hassle and expense of traveling. The attached babe is 200 quid / hour and in my view they do not come much hotter! So overall it's cheaper. BTW this girl is genuine and comes highly recommended. Just perfect. [/QUOTE]Do you report this girl as genuine based upon personal knowledge?

Be advised that this same girl is advertised as available in Kiev for 100 Euro! Take a look at the following link.

[url]http://escort-models.com/en/girls/escort-independent/ukraine/olesja_2167.html[/url]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but obviously this is a bait and switch photo either in Kiev or in London or, more likely, in both.

I would be happy to be corrected by you and you to report that you met this girl personally in London and she appears as advertised, since London is one of my playgrounds. So please let us know if you actually met her, or did you just read a review and accept it as true.

LJ

[QUOTE=KievGuy;1161683]Where to find girls?[/quote]You can find them anywhere. K street has plenty of good stores. Shoes, clothes, you can go in there and try to talk to many different girls. Results will vary but you can get some freebies that way. I haven't been to Kiev for two years but I doubt that the stores have changed much. Most of them have female sales associates. Try Globus, high end perfume stores.

[quote]Is Mamba the best website?[/quote]Mamba is the most popular website. Personally I don't like it because of fake pictures. Many profiles are not genuine. I prefer to meet girls in real life (clubs, on the street, stores etc.) But it doesn't mean that you cannot try. Just be careful and don't be afraid to send girls home if someone else has arrived to your place (not the girl in the picture).

[quote]Where to do it? I'd prefer my apartment, but is that wise? She could bring her friends to rip me off. Is security an issue? How about of she spends the night with me? Some of you have done this and I guess you weren't ripped off. Is it a good idea, though?[/quote]Most of mongers who invited girls to their apartments have stayed in Kiev for a few days / weeks. It was a rental apartment. Your situation will be different? Again be careful and use your own judgement.

[quote]What? I like oral to completion (swallowing). Is that hard to find? Can I ask for it up front, or is considered rude? What is the best way to ask? How much should it cost?[/quote]It all depends. Could be free, could be $300. It depends how much you are willing to pay. Of course if you're fluent in Russian, you will have a better chance to score some freebies. Some girls would get upset if you ask upfront, some would be ok. Again it all depends on each particular situation.

[quote=insomniaque; 1161003]i tend to see rio differently now. so far i figured that, regardless of the looks of the girls, the average level of service was higher than in other venues, or than what you could get through mamba and the like. but maybe is it just that i was very lucky on my first try. with erika, everything had happened like in a dream; a genuine chemistry, an unforgettable private show (i had private dances with a dozen different girls so far, including agatha who did it quite well, but erika still remains unsurpassed) and then the best shag of my career. from there, i definitely conceived very high expectations: what i am learning now is that reality does not (always) meet them. don't get me wrong: i still think you can get awesome gfe from rio; that is not the point. it's just that i am no longer so sure that the premium against standard wg (entrance fee to rio + bribe to managers + private dances + obviously the $300) is worth it, as it does not seem to really increase your chance of getting a real gfe, which from my perspective was its sole justification.

and you can't say either that there are more stunners in rio than elsewhere; i have never seen many 9' and 10' on any given night, only a couple of them at best (even in the vip area). nikita could be a 9+ in my own scale; agatha is a 10; ada and eva could be a 9, if i remember correctly, and i guess mira could be an 8; this is all i can recall at the minute, in terms of stunning specimens. and on top of that, would these girls remain so in broad daylight, without the make up, the dim lights, the g-strings and the high-heels (god, i love those things)? would nikita or agatha, for instance, stand a chance against the moroccan goddess i found via mamba, who was a 10 "au naturel"? i am not sure. of course, with mamba, for one goddess you find, you will have a dozen of average looking girls, so it is really a matter of luck. yet again, is the rio premium really worth it? [/quote]dear insomniaque.

chances of gfe.

you wrote that 'increased chances of getting a gfe' was your sole justification for mongering at rio strip club. i suppose the reason for your expectation of an increased chance of gfe at the strip club was based on the fact that it is a controlled environment and presumably the club supervises its product (the girls) and exercises 'quality control' to insure they behave properly. i'm not sure that is the case, particularly since the managers always said that the club has nothing to do with the customers' discussions with the girls about going out of the club. since the club disassociates itself from the out of club activities of the girls, i assumed that i was on my own with the girl. i assumed the gfe chances were similar to any independent girl i might meet at a nightclub, which is why the interview process is always crucial.

whether or not there is any 'quality control' at rio, and whether the managers can and will address customer complaints with remedial action toward the offending girl, still remains at this point a question.

but i had other reasons for going to rio which are worth considering. my reasons were (a) cost—related and (be) efficiency—related.

(a) in terms of costs, i felt that the prices being asked by the girls in the nightclubs ($300 or $400 for two hours, which is a net rate of $150-$200 per hour) were higher than the costs at rio ($300 for three hours, or a net rate of $100 per hour). i was capable of utilizing and enjoying three hours with a beautiful girl, and the price was low enough, so i was ok with the 3 hour minimum.

(be) in terms of efficiency, the girls at rio were all collected there in one place beginning earlier than nightclubs at 8:00 pm opening time and were being passed directly in front of me a few at a time, leaving me free to easily approach and make contact with any girl i saw that i wanted to speak to, or have her summoned to me by a manager. i could fully see the body and looks of each girl from all angles. this was much more efficient than the nightclub scene where i would have to chase all over a nightclub after a girl i might like or go to nightclubs all over the city and then at each nightclub i would have to spend time to figure out who was an 'available' wg. plus my visits to avalon and buddha bar were failures because there were not a lot a lot of girls to be found there at the time of my visits. so i didn't want to waste more time with the nightclubs, and chose the efficient and more certain location for girls who i might take home.

i also felt that pursuing internet girls was a very inefficient direction to pursue because of the fake photos and bait and switch which resulted in a colossal waste of time. so despite the lower prices on the internet, i limited my involvement with mamba. ru and top-modals. com and other websites to daytime hours when there were no nightclub or strip club options, but for the evenings i felt the only viable options were nightclubs or the strip clubs like rio.

where is it possible to get girls who are 9's and 10's?

after taking in your recent report and your last comments, and the reports of others with negative strip club experiences, i think it worthwhile to go over all the options and put things into perspective for the readership, for the sake of maintaining the value of this forum as a source of useful and reliable information upon which travel and mongering decisions can be based for readers who have not been to kiev yet and seen for themselves.

i think that it is particularly important to restate the basics, in light of the continued postings by some members of this forum who write in each of their posts that there are hundreds of girls who are just as beautiful as the girls at rio strip club (which includes 9's and 10's) all over the streets of kiev who are ready to have sex for $60, which is simply not the case insofar as the 9's and 10's are concerned.

until i see evidence / pictures which convince me otherwise, i will concede and agree to writers like stevie69 and lukasek only that for between $60. $100 it is possible to get p4p from girls one can meet on the streets. but these are average looking girls to be rated maybe not more than between 5 – 7. if that is adequate to satisfy some members of this forum, it's great, because they can be happy while spending only a small amount of money comparatively. but dear readers, please understand that these cheaper girls are decidedly not the beauties who could be rated as 9's and 10's, which would be an extremely rare occurence.

i would also concede to writers like stevie69 and lukasek that at rio strip club there are many average looking girls who would be rated 5 – 7, and that it would be silly to pay $300 (plus the other club costs) for a girl who is at most a 7, when you might be able to find such a decent looking girl on the streets (after much time and trying) for $60. $100, unless you have no time to pursue it on the streets. but while stevie 69 and lukasek are correct about this assertion, it entirely misses the whole point!

the point is that at a strip club like rio there are also some girls who are really beautiful and could legitimately be rated as 9's or 10's. they are not the majority. they are not many. but they are there. and they are available. so at rio, for $300, it is possible to get a really beautiful girl who is a 9 or a 10 – and that is the point!

to think that there are hundreds of girls all over the streets of kiev that will have sex with you for $60 – and who are also real beauties on the level of 9's and 10's. is simply not true. i do not understand why these writers continue to assert otherwise. i am starting to believe that maybe they simply do not differentiate between a girl who is a 7 and a 10.

when i read in the reports of lukasek and stevie69 that at rio they only saw girls who looked no better than the girls that could be seen on the streets, but who only appeared a little sexier because they were naked, and that they saw no real 9's and 10's at rio, i begin to wonder what happened to them when they were at rio.

i know from my own eye-witness observations that at rio, there are some real beauties that could be rated 9's or 10's. is it possible lukasek and stevie69 simply were unlucky and didn't see the same girls i saw?

could someone look at a beautiful creature like taya and not say she was a 9 or a 10? or margarita? or nikita? or gloria? or maybe even yanna?

it is not just me who says that there are 9's and 10's at rio. read the comments of tango9001 or insomniaque in prior posts, or theknight. or read the comments below of jet setr, who met up with me at rio on the night of my duo (about which i wrote in my 'three's company' post of may 1, 2011). i was sitting with ada (brunette) and rosa (dark blond) :

[quote=jet setr; 1150994]joe is, indeed, not exaggerating about the hotness of the girls. the brunette was attractive and a sweetheart, but the blonde may have truly been one of the prettiest girls i have ever seen. she had the face of an angel. i thought i knew what a ten was, and then this girl completely reset my scale. her face would rate an 11-12 on my 'old' scale.

in general, i have never seen such a pretty ensemble as one sees just walking down the streets of kiev. it is truly amazing. most of the girls have these bright blue or green eyes and they are all usually in good shape and dress to the nines. fully 1/4 of them look like they are sisters or cousins of megan fox or mila kunis. [/quote]

what does a 9 or a 10 look like? : in order to avoid further confusion on this issue, i am attaching hereto pictures of girls who i think could qualify as beauties to be rated as 9's or 10's. these are not kiev girls, but rather home grown usa beauties that i am presenting here both for your entertainment and to illustrate what i am referring to when i say a girl is a 9 or a 10. needless to say, you will not find hundreds of girls looking as good as these on the streets of kiev willing to have sex with you for $60. however, there are some girls approaching or at this level at rio, and some of them are available for sex for $300. i hope you guys out there get it now.

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a review of the kiev options.

the mongering options in kiev consist of the following types of venues / sources:

1. strip clubs that have take out.

2. nightclubs / bars that routinely have lots of working girls (wg's)

3. internet advertisements for escorts.

4. girl apartments.

5. street action

the rates and types of girls for each type of venue are as follows:

strip clubs: rio strip club rates for take out are $300/3hours, which is an effective net rate of $100 / hour. for an all night take out until 5am closing time at club when they must return to club, the rate at rio has been $400, and some guys have reported getting the girl to stay longer than 5am, which of course lowers the net rate per hour significantly. some of the girls just dance and do not do take out. the girls in the line-up at rio are all young and consist of many cute above average looking girls in the 5. 7 range, a significant number of very good looking girls in the 8. 9 range, and some stunning girls in the 9. 10 range.

paradise strip club, a sister club of rio, has the same line-up and rates, but is located far from downtown (about a 20 minute taxi ride). mandarin another sister club of rio is currently closed and is said to be reopening "soon". other strip clubs, as reported by theknight do have take out, but the rates are beginning at $400 and i'm not certain how many hours that fee covers, and the line up that wasn't so good. there has been little investigating and reporting on the other strip clubs.

* note: i report that there are girls at rio who are clearly 9's. 10's based on what i have seen with my own eyes. my standards are very high, as you will understand from viewing the photos of the two girls i referenced and provided links for in my very first post (amelia and gloria in london) to see what i consider to be a 9 or 10. i also have attached to this report some playmates whom i believe adequately illustrate what i would consider a 9 or a 10. the 9's and 10's at rio that i have been with include girls like taya. taya has a great body and is as facially pretty as cover girl christie brinkley or model / actress cheryl ladd (of charlie's angels television series) were in their prime. or there is rosa who also has a great body and a face pretty like a princess. don't only take my word for rosa's good looks, see above quote from jet setr. there was also margarita a tall modelesque brunette who i didn't get a chance to speak with because she was so busy, and also the mucho caliente gloria whose hotness and service were reported by tango9001, and i agree with him that she is very hot and at least a 9. and there was yanna and quite a number of others. therefore, dear reader, i suggest that when you read sour grapes reports by some on this thread, if you have any doubts if there are 9's and 10's at rio, you should go into the club and see for yourself.)

nightclubs / bars: the problem here is that i have not found the locations where there are significant numbers of really hot wg's like there were at the river palace and seen the hotties in the nightclubs with my own eyes. the clubs i tried, avalon and buddha bar, did not have a significant wg presence when i visited. it could be because i went to buddha bar from 9 to 11:30pm and it was too early. anyways that's why i shifted my focus to the strip clubs. but based on the reports by others in this thread, it seems that there are lots of wg's at buddha bar and clubs like d'lux and the prices would be similar to what independent girls were asking in the river palace, which are: for the really pretty girls rates of $400 for 2 hours or $300 for 2 hours, and less pretty girls were asking $200 for 2 hours. however, it has been recently reported that $200 for 1 hour is now a standard asking price at clubs. this thread needs more reporting on this topic of wg's in the clubs and their looks and prices. much depended on the monger's negotiating skills and on the time of night as to whether you would be successful in getting the price down from the initial asking price significantly.

nevertheless the rates at the nightclubs were usually higher per hour than the strip club rates. the only exception was with the more average looking girls that you could get for $200 for 2 hours, which although it was the same $100 per hour net rate as the rio strip club, nevertheless was a smaller total cash outlay of $200 as opposed to the $300 minimum at the strip club, and 2 hours is a sufficient time period even for a relaxed unrushed session. for this reason, since i was trying to get the 9's and 10's, i felt the strip club would be the less expensive route to take because such 9 or 10 type girls in the nightclubs would surely be asking $400 or $500 for two hours, which is a higher net rate and cumulative rate than rio strip club. barring some other trailblazer doing significant investigation and reporting, i guess the only way for me to crack this nut of the nightclub scene, is for me to get out there and do it myself the next time i'm in kiev.

internet girls: [url]www.mamba.ru[/url] and [url]www.top-modals.com[/url] were two of the most favored venues for guys on this thread to get girls with prices of 800 uah ($100 usd) down to 600 uah ($75) or maybe even lower. in the past years there were still some girls using true pictures, but it seems that is a thing of the past. now the pictures are fake and you're mostly dealing with agencies. the girls who come to your door are mostly average or below that, but on rare occasions a pretty girl comes and you are lucky. at this point i don't see the advantage of mamba and top-modals over any other website as they are all bait and switch agencies, it seems. there is a lot of time wasting using this method, but during the daytime, maybe it's worth trying. if you come up lucky with a beauty at a cheap rate, you are all set.

there are two exceptions to the fake pictures websites that i am aware of, gia and vodka. here are their links:

gia [url]http://gia-escort.com/escorts[/url]

vodka [url]http://www.vodkaescort.com/gallery.php[/url]

i have not used gia as i felt their rates per hour were too high and the looks of their girls didn't impress me and reach the level of the 9's and 10's i wanted to meet.

i have met with two of the models from vodka for $300 for three hours (julia and inna). since it was the same rate as the rio strip club rate, i decided to give it a try. the photos of julia and inna appeared to me to be true pictures, however, very photoshopped. in the flesh, both girls were slim and sexy, but not as glitzy perfect as the photos. inna's photos in particular really impressed me, but in person dressed for every day, she is not as modelesque perfect, but she is damn sexy little girl, very educated and nice. it was a gfe with both girls. no guarantees regarding their other girls, but i am reporting what i know from personal experience.

to be noted also is that vodka has started a sister operation in the dominican republic based in punta cana which you can check out at [url]www.caribescort.com[/url]. for those of you who live closer to dominican republic this is a chance to meet girls from kiev without traveling all the way there.

girl apartments: there are many apartments with girls in kiev. this is where local ukrainian guys go to have their fun. there has been virtually no reporting of significance on this forum giving details about addresses, prices, services etc. for the girls in these apartments. one way to find these venues is to find a taxi driver in downtown kiev who can take you there. i would recommend that if you don't speak russian, that you prepare a list of prices and questions about services you may want to ask in yes or no format using an online language translator such as [url]http://translate.google.com[/url]. this way you can simply point to a question on your list and she will read it and respond either yes or no (the means 'yes', and nyet means 'no') , or point to a price or numbers on your sheet so you can know how much money to pay even if you can't understand the amount when they speak it in russian. you should also be mindful of security issues in going to an apartment. you might ask the taxi driver if he would wait at the apartment while you are there and agree on a fee for his services as a tour guide for a period of hours in advance. probably it would be a good idea to go with a wingman or several wingmen until an apartment is verified as a legitimate establishment to your satisfaction. better yet is to inquire if the girl can come with you to your apartment.

street action: this topic has some reports attesting to the possibilities of meeting girls on the street and getting them to agree to sex for money, or attesting to the possibility of freebies. but there is little reporting of significance that gives information that might guide the reader who never tried propositioning girls in the street in how to do this, where to do this best, how to approach, how to avoid an embarrassing situation of propositioning a girl who is not a wg, what to say, how to lead the conversation, how to get the girl into your apartment, how to get things to the next level, how to make the first sexual move, or anything that could help others get a better idea on how to do this. i encourage all those who have succeeded at doing this to write in detail about their successes by including details addressing these questions. but currently, there is no body of knowledge based on success and experience that has been written about on the forum giving advice to help those wanting to try this. so basically each monger is left to his own devices to try his luck at picking up young girls on the street that he may use when he is home or may have used at one point in his life. of encouragement are the reports by those mongers who say they have succeeded at this. based on that, i guess we can know it's possible.

happy travels.

lj

[QUOTE=Liljoey; 1162052]Dear Insomniaque.

CHANCES OF GFE.

WHAT DOES A 9 OR A 10 LOOK LIKE? : In order to avoid further confusion on this issue, I am attaching hereto pictures of girls who I think could qualify as beauties to be rated as 9's or 10's. These are not Kiev girls, but rather home grown USA beauties that I am presenting here both for your entertainment and to illustrate what I am referring to when I say a girl is a 9 or a 10. Needless to say, you will NOT find hundreds of girls looking as good as these on the streets of Kiev willing to have sex with you for $60. However, there are some girls approaching or at this level at Rio, and some of them are available for sex for $300. I hope you guys out there get it now.

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liljoey...

I agree girls in the photos are 9. 10 by most blokes standards but remember they have been photo shopped too!

I have been on ISG several years and my thoughts are simply, why the endless debate about prices? If a $100 either way is so critical, should you even bother when overall it's cheaper to stay at home? Some members almost make it sound like the girls should be paying them! I know it's personal choice and some will be happy with a $50 SW but personally, I want a 10 type GFE to blow my socks off, otherwise it's not worth all the hassle. I also agree, what I would call a 10 and what some members call a 10 are VERY different. Trust me, I have found some unbelievable girls. Just perfect and so who cares about paying $100 'over the odds.' Life's too short. It's a shame but none have let me take a photo to post on ISG and prove it. (One was a trainee weather girl on TV and so hardly surprising!) Incidentally, many of the best 9-10's now work in London or elsewhere, as they can earn 2-3x the money and so it is cheaper overall to stay at home now when you weigh up the flight and hotel costs etc and so personally I do both, as a visit to Kiev is always fun. In my experience there is no difference between a 10 and say a 5-7 as both can be either great or bolshy cows with attitude issues, it's all down to some luck and experience at interview. One of the best ever was a blonde babe in Budapest who fucked me senseless but was just so nice and a real GFE to remember.. just wish I still had her number!

[QUOTE=Liljoey; 1162032]Do you report this girl as genuine based upon personal knowledge?

Be advised that this same girl is advertised as available in Kiev for 100 Euro! Take a look at the following link.

[url]http://escort-models.com/en/girls/escort-independent/ukraine/olesja_2167.html[/url]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but obviously this is a bait and switch photo either in Kiev or in London or, more likely, in both.

I would be happy to be corrected by you and you to report that you met this girl personally in London and she appears as advertised, since London is one of my playgrounds. So please let us know if you actually met her, or did you just read a review and accept it as true.

LJ[/QUOTE]Many thanks liljoey and posting my comment and photo has done exactly what I hoped for and turned up an escort listing in Kiev. Local knowledge is everything! I have no idea if this girl is for real, but many listed in London are (from personal experience.) These photos look too good to be true and you know what they say about that, but if genuine and no attitude issues, the 200 quid an hour would not bother me personally. A bargain in fact.

Incidentally, regarding 'bait & switch' this has only happened to me a couple of times, but as ever the outcome remains unpredictable. Once in Budapest, the girl in the photo 'Christina' turned up and was simply mind blowing, yet I read on ISG later that loads of blokes either could not get her, as she was never available or were bait & switched to something ordinary. Luck plays a part as ever. I will do some more research on this blonde.....