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All US dollars in Cambodia? You are plain wrong. Over a year ago the government made a push to relax the reliance on USD and subsequently most 1's and 5's are slowly going away to the point where most transactions under 10 US are done these days in Riel. That's not to say you cannot use them but it is far less common than a year or 2 ago.
Yeps at SouthEaster is 100% right. You will be lucky to see a US dollar bill now in PP. They're gone- the odd $5 - but essentially the currency move to riel has happened really fast.
My first post Covid return trip was Aug / Sep 2022, and then was back again Feb / Mar 2023 , and the speed of progression away from the USD has been fast and impressive. Basically all small purchases now happen with riel.
What's driving the death of the use of USD is also the use of scanning of your ABA QR code for payment. For anything and everything from Smile Mart to tuk tuk drivers to street sellers for your $2 / 8000 riel noodles!
So yeah. Bring USD, but you will be given change in riel and you will be constantly using riel if you don't have an ABA account!
DingoD.
[QUOTE=DingoD;2832927]Yeps at SouthEaster is 100% right. You will be lucky to see a US dollar bill now in PP. They're gone- the odd $5 - but essentially the currency move to riel has happened really fast.
My first post Covid return trip was Aug / Sep 2022, and then was back again Feb / Mar 2023 , and the speed of progression away from the USD has been fast and impressive. Basically all small purchases now happen with riel.
What's driving the death of the use of USD is also the use of scanning of your ABA QR code for payment. For anything and everything from Smile Mart to tuk tuk drivers to street sellers for your $2 / 8000 riel noodles!
So yeah. Bring USD, but you will be given change in riel and you will be constantly using riel if you don't have an ABA account!
DingoD.[/QUOTE]USD isn't dead. Something like 80% of Khmer bank accounts are denominated in USD. It's true that the use of US cash has decreased but that is as you said primarily due to the rise of ABA and QR code payments. Those transactions are almost always in USD. Anyone can and does use USD in Cambodia with no problem as long as the bills are good condition. The whole thing is really a non-issue to me bc Riel is fixed to the Dollar so they are completely interchangeable. Almost every place will price quote in both USD and Riel. Use one or the other or both it doesn't matter. The only two things you have to be careful about is receiving fake USD as change and making sure the condition of your bills is good. I personally use Riel for everyday transactions, and USD for paying bar tabs and the girls.
I am going out for Holidays but am not sure which one to choose, the traveling cost for me is high if I go to Bali, Lower if I go to Jalarta and Lowest if I go to Cambodia. So I'm confused where should I go for best mongering experience. I'm into Nuru massages which lead to the deed. And maybe also pickup girls from bar.
After 6 year I was full with expectations when landing at Phnom Penh international airport. Already in the tuktuk I get the feeling a bad feeling. All the new skyscrapers reminds of the time when Bangkok left its Thai soul.
After my incheck at the hotel I rush for the bar and the girls. " Buy me a drink ", Buy me a drink", buy me a drink" , and no shame at all about the price, lady drinks (juice) = 5 Dollar. I refuse and kindly said, please let me just sit down and having my beer first. I thought I could have little chat But No. I was left there at the table as an lonely stupid barang with my beer course was refusing paying that 5 dollar drink, which I never do if I don't know if the chatting girl go with customer or not. The problem is that the girl don't answer that question before you pay that lady drink o change after. In fact Today 9-10 girls don't go. They are so called, hostes girl and are there only for talking with you ONLY If you pay that 5 dollar drink and you also have to buy another one cours they so thirsty. During the time you maby lucky if the girls you pay the juice want to go to hotel, and the price short time, 100 dollar! If you you more lucky you can get it down to 80 dollar but then you have to pay the barfine with is 20 dollar if you not have payed a lady drink and 15 dollar if you have. This is what I was meeting in every bar on every street, 136,130, 118,51 , 5 and so on. I have been mongering all over the world and 2 times at year in Cambodia during 2000 - 2017 but never seen any change that turned so negative as in Phnom Penh. So unfriendly bargirl, like money robots with no brane at all. When I try to ask the girls, what they think about that almost every bar have no costumer, they just smile little and don't get it. Is the bar only a cloud of money washing or Visa buissiness or the Chinese not have enough by destroyed Shv. Do the bargirls who think the the tourist pay flight tickets for thousand of dollars to get there and then sit alone with a fucking beer in a girlie bar and be served with idiot prices that together with crazy lady drinks and barfines are the highest in the world today. Of course the whole net talks and of course costumer choose other destination. I miss that friendly Cambodia who cares and give time and I hate this pissed garbage girliebars system. Soon the immigration will give you an extra donky stamp beside you visa on arrival. Of course there will alway be some stupid traveler who buy this totally humiliation that have destroyed the country. For me the worst bar with the most unfriendly girls was the OSTEX Bar on 136, the corner, were a girl get angry me when I want to sit alone with my beer for a while. Cambodia and Phnom Peng thanks for all the good year, you never see me again and I will never miss you stinking pot.
Interesting, I was there for the first time this week and rather enjoyed myself. True, girls want drinks and they drink fairly quickly. The majority of them spent the time kissing with me and whenever I was interested in more, there was little problem slipping your hand in her bra or panties (while playing along with the 'shocked' reaction of course). I found that there were many cute girls and no baby damage or anything like it.
Barfines were 10 and I could talk some down to 15 after being quoted 20. Some of the girls did ask 100, with all girls where I had this talk it was very quickly down to 50. As in 'why so much, I give you 50'. A couple that didn't mention a price, I just started with 50 and it was ok.
Didn't get any drink only girls and a bunch others that I didn't want to go with, started about boomboom during the first drink. In the bigger bars with many girls (Wow, Amazing and Exotica?) I did notice that the cuter and younger girls were not calling out to me and avoiding eye contact, so I didn't pursue them.
In 4 days I had 4 girls over, and repeated one of them (so 5 bookings). One 21 year old, 2 19 year olds and an 18 year old. Average weight probably around 42 kg. Service was fine and the girls were very relaxed, happy to be there and accommodating. Was a bit sad to leave for Siem Reap, which turns out to be a place I pretty much hate.
I've been here a couple of weeks and will stay a few more days. PM me if anyone is interested in getting together for a coffee or a beer. I'm staying near river and 130/136st.
My experience here this time is much more similar to that of Free Dude than Finkel60. Depending on how eager the girl is to go, you might be able to negotiate down to $40 or $50, esp. For short time. A significant number of very new girls (less than 3 months) may be due to the industry being shut down during much of COVID. Also, a lot of options in the 18 to early 20's range, then a lot more in 20 something age bracket. And compared to previous times, it seems the percentage of girls with no child is getting pretty high. Birthrate in Cambodia has fallen to nearly 2 per woman so for those who don't like single moms, PP is getting pretty good.
The best value for money in many of these places is to take a girl or two to a sofa near the back and enjoy intimate petting and kissing in a dark area. Some places even have curtains you can close. Assume $5 per drink and you can have a pretty good time for just $30 or so on-site.
I love the 35-38 kilo spinners. It's sometimes a chore to find them in the Philippines (where I normally go). But they are great. I have a 2. 5 week trip to Bangkok coming up and am considering sidetrips either to Pattaya or PP. Where am I more likely to find some little spinners?
Great reporting, mates. It would be nice if you elaborated also on how and where you came on or with the girls and whether a condom was needed, body sdize and weight etc. Both the negative and positive reports ring true. If you can spend a little, have game and time and need a slim 18 yo, approach her. Dress nicely. Drink tea instead of alcohol and work on conversing with her. Even if she rejects a short time offer, her reputation among the older, less pretty chicks strengthens if she can entice you to throw a drink party for say 4 girls. As the night progresses, she may change her mind. Work with tuk tuk drivers to mine the gems. And report back here. Or pm me.
Don't hate Siem reap- visit KTV's there are lot of them and you can find cute looking girls over there but the charges are $80-100. It's not regular KTV's as most of them at first floor all girls sit and you can choose and have a drink and exit.
[QUOTE=FreeDude;2837094]Interesting, I was there for the first time this week and rather enjoyed myself. True, girls want drinks and they drink fairly quickly. The majority of them spent the time kissing with me and whenever I was interested in more, there was little problem slipping your hand in her bra or panties (while playing along with the 'shocked' reaction of course). I found that there were many cute girls and no baby damage or anything like it.
Barfines were 10 and I could talk some down to 15 after being quoted 20. Some of the girls did ask 100, with all girls where I had this talk it was very quickly down to 50. As in 'why so much, I give you 50'. A couple that didn't mention a price, I just started with 50 and it was ok.
Didn't get any drink only girls and a bunch others that I didn't want to go with, started about boomboom during the first drink. In the bigger bars with many girls (Wow, Amazing and Exotica?) I did notice that the cuter and younger girls were not calling out to me and avoiding eye contact, so I didn't pursue them.
In 4 days I had 4 girls over, and repeated one of them (so 5 bookings). One 21 year old, 2 19 year olds and an 18 year old. Average weight probably around 42 kg. Service was fine and the girls were very relaxed, happy to be there and accommodating. Was a bit sad to leave for Siem Reap, which turns out to be a place I pretty much hate.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Philosophus;2838114]Great reporting, mates. It would be nice if you elaborated also on how and where you came on or with the girls and whether a condom was needed, body sdize and weight etc. Both the negative and positive reports ring true. If you can spend a little, have game and time and need a slim 18 yo, approach her. Dress nicely. Drink tea instead of alcohol and work on conversing with her. Even if she rejects a short time offer, her reputation among the older, less pretty chicks strengthens if she can entice you to throw a drink party for say 4 girls. As the night progresses, she may change her mind. Work with tuk tuk drivers to mine the gems. And report back here. Or pm me.[/QUOTE]I had other reasons to be in PP but I also spent some time walking around and sampling the bars from 136 to the night market from the river to 3 blocks in. I am on my way out waiting for my flight at the airport. I did not do exhaustive research by any means. Right before this trip, I was in Pattaya for nearly a month and that was purely a rest and relaxation trip. Here are some thoughts and impressions about PP in general and in relation to Pattaya.
1. Lots of slim girls and a few chubby ones. Height mostly ranges from 153 to 163 cm, with a few out of that range. The bars seem to have many more girls than a few years ago, and people working in the bars have confirmed that with me. Some girls have a bit of a mixed look, NE Asian look, or Indian look. Some are light-skinned, a few much darker ones but usually not as dark as some of the people you see in very poor or countryside areas. The bars seem to be full of 20-somethings with a few late teens and a few 30-40 something experienced ones, often who are mamasans or play a de-facto mamasan role w their generally better English skills. In general, the industry seems to be a hybrid of what they say Angeles City was like in 2000-2010 in terms of youth and abundance of relatively inexperienced girls and modern Pattaya in terms of prices for take-out and maybe attitudes. I don't think it's nearly as easy for Western men to bond with the Khmer bargirls in PP in 2023 as it was with AC girls 15 years ago given the language and culture gaps they face here.
4. Sometimes, I would approach one or two ladies on the street around the bars, invariably the ones who looked late teens / early 20's. More often than not, they didn't speak a lick of English and were very shy. So I would just ask "do you work bar, what name". They could usually say the bar's name, and I would go there later or another day. Once there, the girls were more comfortable, and I could get help from one of the English-speaking girls or mamasan to communicate w them.
5. In Thailand, if I want to communicate w a girl who speaks no English, I can resort to writing on Google Translate. Most of them have it on their own phones too, and can write Thai to show their responses w their phones. So communication is easy in most cases. Unfortunately, in Cambodia, many Khmer girls in the bars struggle to read Khmer and may not know how to write it at all on their phones. They rely on the voice and speakerphone function of Google Translate when I pull it out. But with the music and background noise, talking to text is usually not possible. Generally, I like to build a rapport w a girl by communicating in English or w a translator. That method works a lot better on Soi 6 in Pattaya than PP.
6. Perhaps the best way to bond w a girl of your liking who is younger and doesn't speak English is to treat her and a fluent English speaker to a drink and see whether or not a private couch w curtain drawn can be arranged. Some girls, especially the very young ones who are brand new, may or may not be comfortable, so the other girl who speaks English can make it clear to you along w the girl's body language. If the girl is not comfortable but the mamasan pushes her, that's no good.
7. As I said before, it seems many girls have only been around a few weeks to a few months, so this may be a good time as COVID effect dies down. Also, many of the bars will have what they call original girls (cherry girls from the Philippines back in the day). I think these girls sometimes get propositioned by Asian guys or even local Khmers with money and the cost can be $2,000 or more to be first. I was happy to see that many of the young girls w no kids were not presented as originals, even though the bars probably could have gotten away with it. Some had been married briefly and others had had a boyfriend or even husband but were divorced.
8. I recommend checking out ID of anyone who looks on the young side. Families may lie to the bars and claim the girl is older than she really is. If no ID is available, I avoid even talking to.
9. Communication w Khmers, in general, is more challenging than w their Thai counterparts, whether or not they speak English or have any other common language with you (some know Mandarin Chinese or Thai). I noticed this w bars, hotel staff, etc. It boils down to cultural differences and mutual understanding. Thais in tourist areas have been heavily exposed to English-speaking foreigners for decades. This is much less the case in Cambodia, I believe, w a few exceptions. Thus, I sometimes find myself confused as to what is really going on and whether a person has a positive or negative impression of me in PP. I suspect Khmers may have less negative feelings and sentiment towards non-Asian foreigners but I may be wrong. I'm still trying to know Cambodia better. Khmers seem to be very stoic and serious and live a simple lifestyle. I don't see as much talking and loud chatter, joking, drama, etc. , as I see in Thailand and some other places. They also seemed calm, and I didn't see anyone lose their temper while I was there on this trip or on previous trips.
10. During my last night, I witnessed an older white foreigner outside of what I think was 136 Bar arguing w several girls and a mamasan. Apparently, he got charged for 9 drinks (3 for himself and 6 for a couple of girls he sat with for a while) and he claimed he never bought them. Bill was around $42. He told them to call the police and that he had lived in Cambodia for 20 years. Soon one officer came on a motorcycle and took the foreigner back on his bike while the mamasan and one girl followed. Note, during the whole scene, he was the only one who ever raised his voice. I decided to have a drink there w one girl who caught my eye since it was across from my hotel, and I was keen on a nightcap. A few minutes later, the mamasan came back and I asked her what happened. The girl w me already had told me what happened up to that point. It turns out the guy only had about $36 on him so the officer offered to take that and pay the other $10 himself. But he refused, so he ended up staying the night at the station. So the mamasan told me she would need to return to the station the next day and renegotiate or else she would need to pay the money out of her pocket. What struck me odd about the story (if it's true according to what they told me) is that nobody at the bar nor the police officer yelled at him or physically assaulted him. Moreover, the police did not expect a lot of extra money from him at the station and even offered to cover the shortfall. But since he refused, the mamasan told me she would need to go back to the station the next day and re-negotiate. If something like that happened in Pattaya, the guy would have been shouted down by the bar staff and the police would be a lot more brutal and expensive given his attitude. From what I saw, I don't believe they just randomly stuck him w a bill for a bunch of drinks out of nowhere. That has never happened to me in those bars this trip or on previous trips.
11. The worst thing that happened to me in PP this time was someone trying to stiff me for $10 at Ostro Hotel restaurant. I paid w a $100 bill and they gave me change w a combo of US $ and Cambodian Riel. I stood at the counter and carefully went through the bills and change but noticed as I did this the guy (maybe a manager) who they took my bill to to make change got visibly nervous and finally came over and put another $10 bill on the counter. Thus, it was an intentional error, and he was dumb enough to show his cards instead of pretending to have made a mistake.
12. I love a lot of things about PP. Of all the Southeast Asian and Northeast Asian capitals I've been to, it's the least crowded, has the lightest traffic, and is the easiest to get around. I can get pretty much anywhere in town within 10-15 minutes by tuktuk and when I order one on PassApp, it' usually arrives to pick me up within 1-3 minutes, even during rush hours. There is a lot of well-designed architecture, both colonial-era stuff and modern condos and office buildings. Government buildings and institutions are well-designed and often beautiful. The streets are relatively wide, and there are amazing parks, temples, and the riverfront of course. Cambodia is the second poorest nation on GDP per capita in all of NE / SE Asia, right after Myanmar, yet PP seems better developed in many ways than, say, Metro Manila or Jakarta, which on paper, are much wealthier. PP also has a reputation for having a lot of violent crimes such as muggings. In reality, I think the biggest risk there is having a phone or bag snatched if you don't pay attention or go to darker areas at night, such as the riverside. I am careful with my phone and bag and don't walk in dark, isolated areas at night. But in general, I feel very relaxed and safe there. It feels worlds safer than many of the most popular cities in South America or Africa that many guys on this forum go to. Also, I suspect it will get safer with time, similar to what happened with Bangkok in the 90 and early 2000's.
Another insightful report. Cambodia is dirt poor. Phnom Penh is a trashcan. Khmers are not subdued, but certainly not as exuberant crazy as some Thais can be. Many girls sit in the bars for lack of any other purpose. Make money on drinks or some nights make no money at all. So that is a peculiarity, that many young ones don't make themselves available. My experience is though, that they are all curious and desparately need money. If aou are nice and have game, they can be swayed. Often then only boom boom, no yam yam, no French kissing. But they like being pampered in bed and are orgasmic. If the girl is 18, slim and pretty, I don't mind limited service. I react strongly to her fair pink and youthful beauty. English is very poor. Cambodia is in China's orbit. The jaded, alcohol addicted older bar girls will shout brrrothaaaa after you. Not enticing. You got to control the situation, pick the sexy one and manipulate her with your generosity. As this forum states, money is the best aphrodisiac. I agree that Thailand is easier than Cambo for most mongers.
A short travelogue and my view of Phnom Penh and Cambodia July 2023.
In nearly 100 trips over 23 years to Cambodia, I have always felt that friendly welcome from people who took the time to chat for a few minutes. As a tourist, I have "almost" always been treated with respect and I have traveled there because I simply could not let go of such a fantastic country. Of course, I have also had some short times but actually more long times with the same girl as Ol sihxxxx, , whom I met a number of times, e. G. Last time in Shv. . Short times are not something I chase, I want to be able to sit down and feel the respect, the discussion, the attention and the friendship. I see the value in exchanging opinions, history, humor and a good laugh, simply hanging out with new people. So far I have always found that in Cambodia.
This time when I land in the middle of July 2023 after six years of longing. Already in the tuktuk from the airport, can I feel that a bigger change has taken place when all the skyscrapers towered up. My first hotel was the Ohana Palace Hotel and I sat there in the rooftop jacuzzi and listened to that "atmosphere" with joy and expectations. Once I started walking the streets of the well-known blocks, 136,130, 118,110, 5, I see streets that are 99% girlie bars a la Pattaya.
I sit down several times to have a beer and talk to someone. "Buy me lady drink 5 dol, "buy me lady drink 5 dol," "short time 100 dol. " " , is the only talk in all the bars. I explain that I just want to sit down with my beer. Then I get to sit there alone with my beer and feel the girls' now contempt instead of any attention or friendly glances. No one takes the time, no one cares. I'm just a shit Barang and not even worth chatting with as I'm not idiot enough to pay 5 dollar for a fucking lady juice to talk to someone who can't even speak English or accept the Paris prices 100 dollars + 20 dollars barfine for a short time.
This is repeated in bar after bar and I also leave my undrunk beer after beer. I note that I pay 1100 USA dollar to fly 11 hours to sit alone with a beer and feel unwelcome and despised because as a customer I don't pay for chat in a "bar" without first having been able to talk to the girl and see if she knows English and is nice company or know if she joins, "customer".
I am trying to understand this changed attitude towards barangs / (tourists, are the bars only there for various scams e. G. Visas or money laundering, in any case they are not there for the customers, I can probably count the customers on one hand at these 100's of bars the same at 51 an and 104/102.
If then foreigners buy up bars that don't need to make a profit, the tourists don't need to be given any direct service but an experience of cold and raw fucky fucky unserious prices in comparison with the rest of the mongering world. An industry which has changed the attitude of almost all Cambodian girls from friendly to raw money attitude.
This is why the tourists today flee Cambodia instead of returning, all the other tourists I talk to say the same thing, how unfriendly, harsh and impersonal the country has become, never again.
Then you can say that if now the girls are to have a lady drink for 5 dollars, (and keep 2. 5 dol. Themselves), in order to even keep company or talk, they should at least be able to speak English, which hardly a 5 part can. This concept is probably the stupidest thing ever seen in the whole world. Even more stupid in the way that it's actually a matter of pure idiotic explanation and humiliation towards me as a tourist, how much of a donkey do they think I am.
At the same time, the Cambodians say that nowadays it is hard and difficult to get money in Cambodia and there you scratch your head. But then they have to start by making the tourists feel welcome again and putting down the New York prices in the bars.
Nah, I didn't find that good Cambodian welcoming feeling that I've loved for over 20 years. I am still happy about this trip because now I can start traveling in the other direction again without missing Cambodia. Unfortunately. I, like many many others, am so disappointed in Cambodia that for me it no longer feels worth the money to return there. Now it will be, Medellin, Dominica and Rio again.
Maybe I moved in the wrong quarter I moved in the wrong neighborhood. Not at all I lived luxurious interspersed with backpackers on 172, I rode the river boats I greeted Ratana's family in their house in PP so I moved around in all parts of PP, I saw the worst crash at Norodom I got to see for the first time a "moto theft", that is, when guys on motorbikes in broad daylight drove and snatched the mobile phone from a walking tourist who screamed and tried to run just in case.
Another event which, according to him, illuminates the new Cambodia; After 2 days of watery diarrhea I felt compelled to go to the hospital. I had European ERV. Travel insurance a great travel insurance that also applies to illness and accident. The tuktuk takes me to Raffles medical at 51 an (old SOS clinic). Once there, they get my insurance letter to contact euro alarm, who in turn set up a case. I am examined and a bacteria in the intestine is found. Get a bag of medicine. But I can't leave the clinic. They first want payment from my travel insurance, I. E. On their account. Although European ERV broadcasts a so-called," garanty of paymenth ", then I am not allowed to leave until the actual payment has arrived in their account.
There I sit with my medicine that I cannot start taking. I ask them if I should have waited with the medicine even if I was dying despite a payment guarantee from one of the world's largest travel insurance companies, no answer. Have to wait the next whole day and suddenly they have received the money, goodbye.
At this time I am not at all surprised, once again it turns out that even ordinary working medical staff in the new to me Cambodia have the same raw and cold attitude, full of contempt for tourists. Yes, cash talk, but maybe a little kindness should also be present.
One day when I'm walking on the "riverside walk" away from the riverboats, a girl yells at me. It's a girl who recognizes me from before. She works there as an usher for the boat tours. We get in touch and I chat with her on messenger every day and I regret my experience about the prices for ladydrinks just to be able to talk to someone who doesn't know English alternative to sit alone. Of course she tells me that she now has bad kidneys and has to clean her blood once a week, cost 55 dollars, well I know where that goes. But I just ignore this and I don't forget her last text to me before I cut off our contact. "Why you want lady when you don't spend money".
When I visit a country as a tourist and respect the country / people in all parts, I think it is not an honor to receive contempt in return for no reason.
Yes, there are some lovely glimmers of light, partly because I stayed in a very good hotel, Okay Boutique Hotel str. 19, see picture and partly I saw again a friend from many years. In addition, I enjoyed being able to stretch my legs.
Worst memory. One of the evenings I go to the "Ostro Boka Pot" bar 136/5 opposite Ostro Bistro. I buy myself a beer and immediately a girl comes standing there and rubs herself against me. I explain that I want to sit alone. Then suddenly she becomes loud and narrows her eyes at me and falls a lot angry. I leave the beer and go my way, FyFan that is.
Finally, remember my first trip to Phnom Penh 2021 when I was sitting there and asked another elderly tourist, " what so special with this " ? The friendly atmospfer, he said. An atmosphere that is long gone these days.
Maybe the winds will turn for me towards Cambodia one day? Who knows.
Finkel.
Alright guys this is just based on my first night in a small area but I wanted to add what I think of the little I've seen thus far. I am with a chick already my Thai girlfriend we live in Pattaya together we are on vacation here in PP. We went to a good amount of bars only on 136 and from what I saw the chicks look better than what you would find on soi 6 but not go go bar quality so I think that's pretty good. It's not as crowded as Pattaya so that's good. One thing I must say is the drinks aren't as cheap I expected but still cheap. I already like it better than Vietnam as I thought the nightlife there was just lame.
[QUOTE=TravelingMan3;2838833] went to a good amount of bars only on 136 and from what I saw the chicks look better than what you would find on soi 6 but not go go bar quality so I think that's pretty good.[/QUOTE]
Accurate assessment.
[QUOTE=TravelingMan3;2838833] I already like it better than Vietnam as I thought the nightlife there was just lame.[/QUOTE]Pasteur Street is lame? I'd take Pasteur over Soi 6 or PP. Much more difficult to pick up a girl but that's half the fun imo.