German FKK Clubs - Lounge and chat area

[QUOTE=Neurosynth;2068201]All of this speculation about fines and how they will be collected is a bit of a waste of time. And that's because the law itself is unenforcible. I'll be surprised if there will any fines for BB sex at all.

What sequence of events will lead to that AND provide evidence to support the charge? Be specific and plausible.[/QUOTE]Again, I agree (well, 90%) ;) I find it hard to see the law being highly enforced (I'm no expert but I think there has been little enforcement over the years in Bayern). The most likely problem would be a normal run of the mill raid on one of the clubs which used to be officially AO, with the Police then rummaging through waste bins looking for condoms, and taking the names of the customers present and writing to them at home with some kind of general warning letter. Someone would have to be very very unlucky to be found in a position where legally relevant evidence of BBBJ was available.

Any views on this from members resident in Germany and fluent in German would be interesting

Time will tell.

Let's say I am riding the you-bahn without a ticket. Then, I get the standard 60 Euro fine.

What happens if I don't pay? What happens if I can't pay?

They take me to jail for awhile? Or, does this present a problem the next time I try to enter the country? If I have 3 unpaid you-bahn fines, will they deny me entry upon arrival by Immigration until I settle my previously late fines?

No need to discuss plausibility of enforcement of you-bahn fines. Happens every day. I've just never heard definitely what happens when one doesn't pay this fine.

[QUOTE=UltraHappy;2068158]There's nothing written in the law about this. I'm not saying that you're wrong -- I'm merely stating that I've read the law and the law doesn't say anything about this (including the section that particularly deals with fines).

In any case, how would Germany know how much I, as an foreigner, earned anyways? What's to stop me from saying that I am but a humble office worker who only makes $23,000 per year? (or $47,000 per year or whatever).[/QUOTE]It wouldn't be written in THE law. You would find it in general statutes regarding sentencing / fining.

Courts usually make an estimate of what a accused earns on the basis of their declared profession. Only in tax fraud cases or serious criminal cases (more than a 3-month suspended) would they look into your bank account (difficult to believe but true). A clever lawyer would tell the court what you do for a living in a way that would induce the court to set the lowest rate possible. Astonishingly the courts don't investigate this in detail, probably because it would add considerably to their workload. If you lie you lie at your own risk but you may withhold part of the truth. You may let on that you are a building engineer and withhold the fact that you are also a building contractor with your own successful company. That's why bragging about one's financial status is the last thing to do when dealing with the police or the court system here. There's a barrier in Germany that protects your bank account (up to a point) from automatic inspection even by the courts.

I'm sure if mongers get fined for BBBJ the fining/sentencing will be testimony-based only. This is not per se good news as it depends on someone else's story. But if a prosecutor ("Staatsanwalt"), or in more serious cases, a judge, is convinced you did it, you're toast. I am not about to forget the day when that German lawyer told me "You wouldn't believe how many guys sit in Stadelheim just because someone said "I saw him do it". Stadelheim is a well-know prison. I read somewhere this heavy reliance on testimonies was typical of Societies where torture is not an option. You can't torture a suspect so you have to rely on what other people say. Torture is certainly not a good think but it's interesting that even the abolition of torture may have come at a price.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2068218]Change? But I thought there was a cap on 2 periods at the office.

Or does Germany also allow foreigners into high office positions? Hehe.[/QUOTE]BBBJ Libre!

Well only counter strategy I can think of for Germany is strategy 50.

If there is no BBBJ, I just go for 50 euro 30 min doggu dog style banging sessions. Without BBBJ quality of session would be limited anyways and I doubt they gives me rimjob after gives me CBJ? Or rimjobs comes with condom too now? LOL.

BBBJ long sessions, no BBBJ just 50 euro sessions is the only way for me.

[QUOTE=XXL;2068420]It wouldn't be written in THE law. You would find it in general statutes regarding sentencing / fining.

Courts usually make an estimate of what a accused earns on the basis of their declared profession. [/QUOTE]Do you happen to have a link to these general statutes that purport to charge fines for Ordnungswidrigkeit offences in proportion to salary? I don't see these anywhere in my searching.

In Germany, an accused has an absolute right to remain silent. So, I'm curious how a German court determine a foreigner's profession if the accused relies on their right to remain silent?

[QUOTE=UltraHappy;2068517]Do you happen to have a link to these general statutes that purport to charge fines for Ordnungswidrigkeit offences in proportion to salary? I don't see these anywhere in my searching.

In Germany, an accused has an absolute right to remain silent. So, I'm curious how a German court determine a foreigner's profession if the accused relies on their right to remain silent?[/QUOTE]You have a right to remain silent but once charged you (your lawyer) must say something eventually. Your lawyer can lie in court but it can be a good idea to tell something close to the truth. On your imigration card or your visa application you will have provided your profession.

Remaining silent means leaving it to your lawyer to do the talking and not incriminating yourself before any charges are made. It doesn't mean you can get off the hook by playing deaf and dumb.

In practice you should get the opportunity of paying a fine and be done with it and that is the best thing to do. I'm not sure they fine proportional to salary for non arrestable offences. For arrestable offences they sure do.

[QUOTE=XXL;2068521]On your imigration card or your visa application you will have provided your profession.
[/QUOTE]Those of us arriving from the States do not fill out an immigration card -- Rather, we qualify for visa-free travel. So, we do not provide our profession to Germany before or upon arrival.

I found this interesting comparative law article that compares some of the aspects of German criminal law to American law. On p. 45, the author writes:

"German procedures against self-incrimination are equal to, or perhaps even stronger than, American standards. However, unlike in America, "most German defendants waive their right to remain silent. " On the one hand, this may be a cultural difference bolstered by the atmosphere and customs of a German trial. But there is also a procedural distinction that underpins the difference: defendants in Germany are allowed to give unsworn statements at trial, and they cannot be held criminally liable for these statements. ".

Source: [URL]http://www.eur.army.mil/aepubs/docs/CLS-Germany.pdf[/URL].

I find it interesting that the German court supposedly cannot hold a defendant criminally liable for their own statements. In the States, many Defendants are convicted solely based on their own testimony.

Another brief article about a few key points of German law states as follows:

"Under certain circumstances, accused parties who are not German may have their passports confiscated to keep them from leaving the country. In serious cases, the accused may be placed in pre-trial confinement. ".

Source: [URL]http://www.howtogermany.com/pages/legal.html[/URL].

So, at least in some cases, Germany could withhold your passport to keep you from leaving the country or keep you in jail until trial. I wonder how long I could go without paying a fine for traveling on the the Deutsche Bahn without a ticket before Germany decides to pull the trigger on the nuclear option and jails me or confiscates my passport?

If Germany were to take my passport in that scenario, what's to stop me from driving to my American consulate in France, reporting my passport lost, getting a new passport issued to me on an expedited basis, then returning home directly from France with my new passport?

So many mysteries about the German legal system. Too bad there are no German legal experts here.

[QUOTE=UltraHappy;2068517]Do you happen to have a link to these general statutes that purport to charge fines for Ordnungswidrigkeit offences in proportion to salary? I don't see these anywhere in my searching.[/QUOTE]17.3 indicates the offender's wealth / economic circumstances are sometimes considered.

[URL]https://dejure.org/gesetze/OWiG/17.html[/URL]

[QUOTE=Samplerr;2068538]17.3 indicates the offender's wealth / economic circumstances are sometimes considered.

[URL]https://dejure.org/gesetze/OWiG/17.html[/URL][/QUOTE]Damn. That's some serious shit.

And, thanks for sharing the link! You are a gentlemen and a scholar sir!

[QUOTE=UltraHappy;2068528]If Germany were to take my passport in that scenario, what's to stop me from driving to my American consulate in France, reporting my passport lost, getting a new passport issued to me on an expedited basis, then returning home directly from France with my new passport?

So many mysteries about the German legal system. Too bad there are no German legal experts here.[/QUOTE]Are you willing to bet the German gov. Is that stupid? Are you willing to be charged with a second crime?

What is more interesting is: do you have the right to have the girl there as a witness? What if you paid her not to be available? You could always allege that no condom was the girls idea and you just did not know. A better defense.

I agree with Neuro that these discussions are largely theoretical and academic. I think (hope?) that investigations, convictions, and large fines and other punishments are unlikely.

This link here gives some overview of the German legal system. No idea if this info is accurate and authentic.

[URL]http://www.howtogermany.com/pages/legal.html[/URL]

My personal view in legal matters is, (a) not to break the law to the max extent possible (b) if broken and caught, then not to present a argumentative defense which could insult the judges' intelligence and toughen their stance and resolve -- rather to admit to facts which are evident, pay any fine and request for lenience due to a first time offense (c) not to repeat any longer. Anyway, that's me.

I am more interested in what the procedures and processes are -- can you pay the fine on the spot and leave? Does the record stay on beyond the fine? If the fine is a large one and you want to contest or appeal, how long before one can see the judge and be stuck in Germany (and do you need to engage a local lawyer -- if the fine is as large as 50 K then I would assume that you would want some legal help).

Anyway, I hope none of us have ever to face these issues.

[QUOTE=UltraHappy;2068528]

If Germany were to take my passport in that scenario, what's to stop me from driving to my American consulate in France, reporting my passport lost, getting a new passport issued to me on an expedited basis, then returning home directly from France with my new passport?
[/QUOTE]If your passport gets confiscated it should go on a list and your consulate should know about it. Things go quite fast these days with EDP. If you lie to get one back all the same you are committing a further offence and putting yourself deeper into trouble. When you report a lost ID or passport you are required to tell the truth about what happened (lost, stolen, burnt etc.).

[QUOTE=UltraHappy;2068404]Let's say I am riding the you-bahn without a ticket. Then, I get the standard 60 Euro fine.

What happens if I don't pay? What happens if I can't pay?

They take me to jail for awhile? Or, does this present a problem the next time I try to enter the country? If I have 3 unpaid you-bahn fines, will they deny me entry upon arrival by Immigration until I settle my previously late fines?

No need to discuss plausibility of enforcement of you-bahn fines. Happens every day. I've just never heard definitely what happens when one doesn't pay this fine.[/QUOTE]I was stopped in June for being on the metro without a valid ticket. I had a ticket that was a couple of days old and was trying to argue that I had bought this ticket but hadn't traveled that day so thought that I could use it on another day as it had not already been validated.

Their view was that the ticket was only valid on the date that it was bought. They also said that if I was a German citizen then they would take and validate my address and give me a summons to appear at some office to either pay the fine or provide plausible reasons why I did not have a valid ticket. However as I was non-German I would have to either pay the fine on the spot or they would call the police.

I refused to pay and they called the police however as the police were busy with other more important matters I was detained at the station for 30 minutes before I decided that I could not stay waiting at the station indefinitely as I had to get on with my day.

They had asked for my passport saying that all visitors are obliged to carry identification at all times but I said that I did not have one. I was wary in case they would hold on to it rather than hand it back. Maybe the reason they detained me was also partly because they wanted the police to check whether I was in the country illegally.

In the scenario where you are left waiting for the police indefinitely and then have to make a trip to the police station which would take up 2 or more hours of your time then maybe it would be worth paying the fine.

In any case I believe they have a two or three strikes and then you are out approach. So if you are given a fine and do not pay it then the next time you could be arrested and asked to attend court where you could be fined a higher amount and imprisoned or banned from the country if you don't pay.

Do they note unpaid fines on your record for immigration purposes? I am not sure of the scenario whereby if you return to Germany and there are unpaid fines noted on your record whether you would have the option to pay the fine at the passport desk. That is not their responsibility after all and they may not have the procedure in place to pass these unpaid fines on to the appropriate persons.

Jnpr. You raise crucial questions. I hope somebody knows the answers

On a separate aspect. Advice given to me by Police I know, and obviously followed by Police themselves, don't admit to ANYTHING (until you have seen evidence against you which is clearly impossible to dispute in any way) to the Police when they first talk to you. If you are innocent of what they are asking about, still don't admit anything (even that the sun is shining). Police say that everybody is guilty of something somewhere in their lives, it's just a question of getting them to talk or seizing electronic evidence.

If you can, avoid presenting your passport at a raid (say it is in your car, then go out and drive off if possible, as most customers did at a recent raid in Frankfurt). Deny going to an FKK to have sex, say you were just there for the sauna and to relax. Give a story about the places you visited as a tourist by train and with your mobile phone turned off. They are then faced with having to decide if it's worth seizing your or the club's electronics to try to disprove you. And so on.

Of course once it goes to court the situation is different and what JNPR says in b) is sensible, not to insult the legal system with barefaced lies which can be easily disproven