German FKK Clubs - Lounge and chat area

[QUOTE=Optimist;2068748]
If you can, avoid presenting your passport at a raid (say it is in your car, then go out and drive off if possible, as most customers did at a recent raid in Frankfurt). Deny going to an FKK to have sex, say you were just there for the sauna and to relax. Give a story about the places you visited as a tourist by train and with your mobile phone turned off. They are then faced with having to decide if it's worth seizing your or the club's electronics to try to disprove you. And so on.
[/QUOTE]I don't know why I would need to say that I was at the FKK for just relax. Being at FKK is totally legal in Germany. Why would I need to run away from FKK control? It's not illegal for me to be there. Why would I need to make up stories about other places that I've been to?

Perhaps these gentlemen feared that there was some sort of evidence of some sort of illegal activity against them? Maybe they were smoking inside the club when the raid occurred and the tourists knew that smoking inside the clubs is now illegal?

Even if the police seize my phone, I suspect that they couldn't do much with it as it is locked and encrypted. So, if my phone is off when they seize it, the data on it is completely encrypted and inaccessible, even if they could somehow bypass the lockscreen. To the police, my phone is just a useless brick -- an expensive brick but a brick nonetheless. Even if they seize my phone in the on state, bypassing the lockscreen is not trivial, even if possible, and I doubt they would go to such efforts for most low level offenses.

Agree with UH. Being in the FKK is by itself quite legal. I have never been caught in one of those raids on the clubs thank goodness, and I heard that by and large they check that girls and clubs are following the rules and leave the men alone (may be check their IDs at best) -- and I don't know if they ask why you are in the club and so on. Having sex in the club with girls there is quite legal and I don't see why I should lie about it.

My comments were more generic in nature and not specific to the club. I believe that when one lies and especially in a legal situation, eventually the truth comes out these days with the amount of surveillance and electronic clues we have / leave everywhere. In my view, a cover up always looks worse than the original lie. So, this is a general principle.

I agree with Optimist, I didn't mean that one should volunteer a tremendous amount of information to the police, but whatever you say, it should not be a lie. If possible, speak as little as needed.

Anyway, these issues crop up only if the situation balloons up into a big legal calamity. Far better to pay a quick fine and leave with a clean record, if such a thing is possible. As long as the fines are less than a grand, I think most foreign tourists might be amenable to this. If the fine is as high as 50 K, then guys might contest. If the fine is a few thousand, then it becomes more complicated -- to contest / appeal, or not?!

Jnpr. I have been in maybe six fullscale raids and they are exactly as you say: absolutely no problem for customers as they were only taking part in legal activities. In future there will be the new element that the Police raid could possibly be keeping an eye out for the newly illegal activities: in view of this my attitude wil change and I will exercise discretion, being the better part of valour, and will just try to keep off their radar (no more long chats with Police during a raid). Innocence is never any guarantee of not being framed, set up, and even found guilty.

I agree a cover up lie is the worst option. I meant just to say it's a good idea not to implicate oneself intentionally or accidentally unless there is the evidence against one.

UH. In my country a phone access cannot be denied to the Police. To withhold passwords to encryption is a serious criminal offence. I think in Germany it is different, so you are correct and they would have a much harder case to make to get access to a phone.

Anyway, I didn't mean to inflate this issue. As Jnpr says, enforcement is likely to be near impossible. If anyone is caught then I hope as he does that one can just pay the fine and not get a criminal record.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2068782]I believe that when one lies and especially in a legal situation, eventually the truth comes out these days with the amount of surveillance and electronic clues we have / leave everywhere. In my view, a cover up always looks worse than the original lie. So, this is a general principle.

I agree with Optimist, I didn't mean that one should volunteer a tremendous amount of information to the police, but whatever you say, it should not be a lie. If possible, speak as little as needed.

Anyway, these issues crop up only if the situation balloons up into a big legal calamity. Far better to pay a quick fine and leave with a clean record, if such a thing is possible. As long as the fines are less than a grand, I think most foreign tourists might be amenable to this. If the fine is as high as 50 K, then guys might contest. If the fine is a few thousand, then it becomes more complicated -- to contest / appeal, or not?![/QUOTE]It's not just about being caught in a lie. Often, telling the truth can land you in hot water. If you don't believe me, listen to this law professor describe all the reasons why he declares that he is PROUD that he will NEVER talk to ANY police officer:

[URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE[/URL]

And, if you don't believe that law professor, then listen to the highly experienced police officer during the second half of the presentation who has conducted hundreds and hundreds of interrogations. Admittedly, this presentation is directed to US law, but it's enough to put the fear in me of ever saying anything to the police. Granted, I don't apply this rule so strictly when I am abroad, but in the States, I never answer questions from police officers.

Regarding the amount of the fines, if I were ever caught doing something illegal in an FKK (like for example, smoking indoors in an NRW club), I would be quite happy to pay a 1,000 Euro fine and be done with it. If the fine were 50,000 Euros, then in that case, I would have to consult my consulate (which all foreigners have the right to do per international treaty) before deciding what course of action made sense for me.

In any case, I agree that all of this talk is purely theoretical as the current evidence suggests that there is no likelihood that any of us would ever be prosecuted for any violations whilst enjoying one's self in a sauna club.

We need pros lobbying in German parliament to lift the ban on BBBJ part as it is almost done as a side topping of the law.

But it ain't over till its over.

The last of the German BBBJ.

UH. Thanks. That excellent video clip makes in great detail the point I was trying to make. A bit more radical than me though.

Agreed again, hopefully this is all hot air on our part and we will never be faced with it in reality. I just want to get my mind in the right place just in case. Up till now I have always been very friendly and forthcoming with German police: in future I intend to melt into the background if I can.

[QUOTE=Optimist;2067978]McAdonis. I always, like you, try to put business the way of a girl I like and think is good. I check with her first of course. As you say, the girls concerned always appreciate this: they'd rather have a publicist than a jealous guy trailing them (unless that guy has the money to buy them for the day). I also let other less reliable guys take "my" girl first, so she appreciates that, and when she goes with me she often has already made her target for the day.
[/QUOTE]Ass-alam Optimist! Now this is what I call the true FKK spirit. Sharing the bounty of the earth freely. Completely the opposite to the competitive spirit that some guys bring to the FKKs.

In most developed countries like the US and France there is a perceived shortage of attractive women, leading to hoarding, leading to exacerbation of the shortage, leading to great conflict between guys: any guy would stab his brother or best friend for a chance of a night with a hottie! I suspect this situation will one day be considered as unhealthy for society as the shortage of food in the Middle Ages.

Anyway a lot of guys have a hard time dropping this mindset when they enter FKKs. They might bring gold watches with them to convince the girls they are richer than other mongers, or tell the girls, "Don't go with those other guys, they are fat monsters!" The girls learn to have contempt for the guys and set them against each other, the same as in mainstream society.

That is why it is like a breath of fresh air to hear people take a non-possessive, non-grasping attitude towards the girls in this forum.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2069070]In most developed countries like the US and France there is a perceived shortage of attractive women, leading to hoarding, leading to exacerbation of the shortage, leading to great conflict between guys: any guy would stab his brother or best friend for a chance of a night with a hottie! I suspect this situation will one day be considered as unhealthy for society as the shortage of food in the Middle Ages..[/QUOTE]Poly, you crack me up man! You have a original way of putting things in perspective. Interesting comparison between food shortages and attractive pussy -- we solved the first problem, but how do we solve the second one? I seem to lose attraction when the girl ages even a few extra years, even those I used to find eminently Fuckable.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2069191]Poly, you crack me up man! You have a original way of putting things in perspective. Interesting comparison between food shortages and attractive pussy -- we solved the first problem, but how do we solve the second one? I seem to lose attraction when the girl ages even a few extra years, even those I used to find eminently Fuckable.[/QUOTE]Perhaps because the girls have been prematurely aged by smoking and obesity? In the original spirit of the movement, FKKs should be at the forefront of promoting public health. It is when people are naked that the ravages of a poor lifestyle on beauty are most evident. How about replacing all the crap carbs in those buffets with fruits and salads? There are some FKKs I will go into and half the girls are unfuckable because of this one problem. It is part of the global obesity epidemic that has blown up over the past few decades. I think if we were mongering in the 1970's this issue wouldn't even be on our radar.

Maʿ al- salāmah, Jnpr, and may the white goat of peace nuzzle ever more gently at your testicles!

Polyamorist. Even ten years ago there were few fat girls. The obesity epidemic hit eastern Europe only since then.I count myself lucky to have seen one of the great wonders of the world: girls before the obesity epidemic

The only thing FKK clubs and the original FKK movement have in common is nudity.

[QUOTE=RogueNation;2069500]The only thing FKK clubs and the original FKK movement have in common is nudity.[/QUOTE]As the original format or beginning and ripe maturity period, peak has been passed few years ago for German FKK culture as we used to know it.

Remarkable change is nationalities that vanished. There were not many but few Czech, Austrian, German and considerable amount of girls in line up from Poland. Now these nationalities are almost extinct from German FKK line up, there has been obvious decline in that area.

And hard up sell make it too annoying and DFK up sell was the red line to handle and it was OK, but now BBBJ with new girls who do not know you. Can be turning point for some pro mongers.

[QUOTE=RogueNation;2069500]The only thing FKK clubs and the original FKK movement have in common is nudity.[/QUOTE]Yes and also that they were both persecuted by the German government as a threat to public morality, one in 1933 and the other in 2017.

[QUOTE=UltraHappy;2068528]I find it interesting that the German court supposedly cannot hold a defendant criminally liable for their own statements. In the States, many Defendants are convicted solely based on their own testimony.[/QUOTE]There's a fundamental difference between the US (and many former British colonies) and most of Continental Europe. You have on one side common law and on the other civil law systems. It's not surprising that the systems would create different solutions for various topics.

I would think that in Germany (because it's this way in other European countries) that the accused is expected to say anything to be acquitted. It's pointless to try to charge them with perjury for lying about their innocence.