Kyiv

[QUOTE=Latexian2;1210779]Of course the downside is the small town effect where the girls might be embarrassed to be seen with you, and if she goes home with you from a club everyone will know.[/QUOTE]From my (admittedly small) experience of provinces, what is surprising is that many of the girls—especially the ones that have been abroad and have a bit of stature—have very little respect for their fellow countrymen and don't care what they think. Of course, they won't be seen dead with a turk or italian cheapo sex-tourist, but if you're a decent looking westerner that looks "serious" and dressed with rafinement and style, it is even a matter of prestige for them.

[QUOTE=Latexian2; 1210806]Only once did I have any problems, and some girls stepped in and called the police. But in general I really haven't had much trouble. The key is to always hit on girls alone, or groups of girls. A few times I have had some guy come and tell me one of the girls is his girlfriend and in those situations I try to be friendly, it helps if you speak Russian. That is I immediately defer to the guy saying I had no idea, offer to buy him a drink, etc. If he's super drunk or something I'd probably just get the hell out as fast as possible though.

Also I find that in the provinces there is often an "old people's club" which is where the 21-60 crowd hangs out, and the young people's club which is often something like 15-25. Naturally since I'm a sleazeball I go to the young people's club which tends to be more upscale in terms of decor and less drunken fist fights. I lived in provincial Russia for half a year and there was one club that always had drunk and beliigerant Russian guys, and you'd often see blood on the walls in the bathroom. But other clubs were very orderly and most people wouldn't try anything.

I'm also a big guy so those scrawny 18 year olds aren't really a problem. I do agree that it is always a fear of mine to see groups of drunk guys on the streets at night as I'm walking by. That's why I try only to take taxis past dark or not to say too much. Also in winter if you're wearing a coat / hat you blend in much more than in summer in my experience.

But in general all of these problems I think are worse in Russia then Ukraine because nationalism is strongly anti-Western and anti-foreigner in Russia. St. Pete is actually the worst, I think I have about 10 friends now who have been beat up or mugged by police, one of them even got "escorted" him by the police only to have them rob his apartment (computer, cash, passport, etc.). I haven't heard such stories in Ukraine, only the typical ones in Kiev like the cash lying on the street scam where you pick up the money and someone comes and says it's theirs but it's not all their so you owe them $100 or whatever.

The possibility of violence this is a real issue that one should be careful of. I guess after living in Russia for so long I've gotten good at seeing these problems coming before they hit you, so you know how to get out of those situations. And it's true you sometimes have to be weak and just give the girl you're entertaining away; I'm all for standing up to tough guys but when you're one foreigner in a club of 50 Ukrainians and a group of them comes up to you you should just defuse the situation as fast as you can even if it means just leaving the club immediately. (That only happened to me once in 2 years. Really about the same as in a small town in the US).

But in Ukraine I think you'd be surprised that most young guys at a club are more interested in being the guy chilling with the foreigner than they are getting pissed at you. That is being with you gives them status and better prospects with the ladies. Nine times out of then that's what I've experienced, and it often gets really annoying because these guys won't leave you alone and can end up cockblocking you.[/QUOTE]I don't think that we can compare Russian and ukrainian people. Even if they share the same language and almost the same culture they are very different. Ukrainian usually like foreign people and they treat them well. In Russia, especially Russian guys are very agressive and don't like foreign men. I spend few years in Moscow and I just saw some horrible attitudes toward foreign people during nightlife. Today the good thing in Moscow is, as you mentioned, the fact that there are less foreign men compared to the population than in Kiev.

[QUOTE=Toptraveler1;1211020]In Russia, especially Russian guys are very agressive and don't like foreign men. I spend few years in Moscow and I just saw some horrible attitudes toward foreign people during nightlife.[/QUOTE]Sounds weird. Moscow is full of cosmopolitan, worldly, arty, intelligent people. This is not the case of Lugansk or Donetsk. Ukrainian masses are a fairly dumb lot IMO.

[QUOTE=Prosal;1210866]. but if you're a decent looking westerner that looks "serious" and dressed with rafinement and style, it is even a matter of prestige for them.[/QUOTE]That is such a good point that needs further discussion sometime because some guys just don't get it. They travel to the provinces dressed like they are going to a football match or looking like a backpacker (baggy ill fitting jeans, scruffy shoes etc.) and wonder why they are not doing well. When U-turn up in the provinces you should want your image to say something about you as a person, and the best image is wealth and style. You don't need wealth to succeed, not at all, but you should imply it subtly. A lot of guy's problems meeting devs could be solved by wearing well fitting, stylish clothes that are neat and clean. Russians judge people by their possessions and clothes in particular, they're a very materialistic bunch. Whereas in the west you can be rich but still dress scruffy out of choice or because it's just your style, in Russia that is seriously rare. Rich Russians can't wait to throw away their black caps and get themselves an overly ostentatious Versace shirt. And as we are on holiday we have few ways to show our wealth (we don't have our car with us, can't bring a girl back to our stylish home etc.) so the only thing open to us is our clothes (and gadgets ).

I have a friend who I was in Bishkek with, lovely lad, funny, younger then me, better looking, better Russian BUT he dressed in baggy combats, scruffy converse shoes, non ironed t's, unkempt beard. That look can be quite cool in the west, and does not mean you're financially poor, but over there the result was that not only did he get no action but he totally cockblocked me. Women used to ask me why I hung around with a Bomzh and be reluctant to join us at our table. When you step off the train in a new provincial town in the middle of nowhere it's like you're on stage. Therefore give the girls what they want, give them the fantasy of the stylish, cool westerner come to save them from their drudgery. No woman ever dreams of being swept off her feet by a bin man. You remember the Carly Simon line "You walked into the party like you were stepping of a yacht", that's what I do, I walk into the club, bar, hotel, bank, like I'm the coolest mofo on the planet even though inside I'm riddled with insecurities about my looks etc, and it pays dividends. I'm not saying dressing stylishly will get you laid automatically, but it will help introduce you to ten times more women, and women of a higher quality will certainly be more open to being approached by you.

[QUOTE=Toptraveler1;1211020]. In Russia, especially Russian guys are very agressive and don't like foreign men. I spend few years in Moscow and I just saw some horrible attitudes toward foreign people during nightlife.[/QUOTE]A bit of an over generalisation. I've had nothing but good vibes from Russian men personally, you just need to know how to handle them and be good at pre-empting situations, oh, and not hitting on their women :) Speaking some Russian makes conflict so much rarer I think. I will agree that Ukrainians seem a bit more westernised in their outlook though.

[QUOTE=Prosal;1210856].I've been involved in brawls two or three times, and in Tashkent even had a cornea crack that obliged me to go to the eye-clinic twice a day during one week to plaster my eye and to endure a bandage covering half of my face. Positive side is that during that week, girls pampered me like never. (smilie)[/QUOTE]Only time I've ever had a fight or threatened has been in Central Asia. The Asian guys there don't seem to be able to hold their beer too well and can get a bit violent when pissed.

[QUOTE=Prosal;1210866]. but if you're a decent looking westerner.[/QUOTE]I forgot to mention that point: Do you mean 'decent looking' as in facial looks? I would say that looks are not half as important in Russia as they are in the west. Qualities like confidence, alpha behaviour, wealth are much higher on the women's list of priorities. Evidence of this can be seen on the streets of Russian towns where you see such a high number of unbelievably hot looking women walking arm in arm with men who are decidedly below average in the handsomeness stakes.

[QUOTE=Borderland;1211252]I would say that looks are not half as important in Russia as they are in the west.[/QUOTE]+1. Style and clothes are more important than looks. Looks help of course, but it isn't a central theme with Russian / Ukrainian girls. They are undoubtedly some of the most fashion-conscious women on earth. They dress to the tens, and anything less than a similarly stylish and well-groomed guy is not a guy worth fucking. But you need the real stuff. Fake and cheap gets you nowhere, it's a turn-off for 99% of the girls, who are VERY good at gauging what you wear.

[QUOTE=Borderland;1211243]. Rich Russians can't wait to throw away their black caps and get themselves an overly ostentatious Versace shirt.[/QUOTE]That's a bit of a stereotype. Rich Russians with taste and class don't wear obviously labeled clothes. It is very much a gopnik and unclassy thing to be covered head to toe with D&G, Armani or Versace logos, be it in the West or in Russia. That said, in places like Chisinau or Tashkent, this "label" stereotype does still rear its ridiculous head.

Personally I dress in upper-quality and non-monogrammed "casual line" clothing. More precisely, for clubs, something like a dark Zegna or Boss shirt or sweater, stylish vintage Diesel jeans, a labeled belt (only labeled thing I allow myself) , and nice shoes. A nice coat that looks expensive is also something of importance in winter. Bought last year a mink and cashemere Brioni black coat that is a true killer and allowed my some lofty scores. The latest touchscreen mobile phone and the expensive eye-catching watch are also magnets for girls.

[QUOTE=Prosal;1211195]Sounds weird. Moscow is full of cosmopolitan, worldly, arty, intelligent people. This is not the case of Lugansk or Donetsk. Ukrainian masses are a fairly dumb lot IMO.[/QUOTE]Do not mix things. I compared Moscow and Kiev but also Russian and ukrainian people. I did not talk about Lugansk or Donetsk as I've never been there. I'm talking about the night life in Moscow. Of course there are many intelligent people, artists, writers and intellectuals in Moscow like in any big city in the world. But I'm not sure that we can find a lot of Russian intellectuals in club Che or in any other club in Moscow.

[QUOTE=Prosal; 1211270]That's a bit of a stereotype. Rich Russians with taste and class don't wear obviously labeled clothes. It is very much a gopnik and unclassy thing to be covered head to toe with D&G, Armani or Versace logos, be it in the West or in Russia. That said, in places like Chisinau or Tashkent, this "label" stereotype does still rear its ridiculous head.

Personally I dress in upper-quality and non-monogrammed "casual line" clothing. More precisely, for clubs, something like a dark Zegna or Boss shirt or sweater, stylish vintage Diesel jeans, a labeled belt (only labeled thing I allow myself) , and nice shoes. A nice coat that looks expensive is also something of importance in winter. Bought last year a mink and cashemere Brioni black coat that is a true killer and allowed my some lofty scores. The latest touchscreen mobile phone and the expensive eye-catching watch are also magnets for girls.[/QUOTE]Yes, I was not being overly serious regarding Versace shirts (I think that such ostentatiousness was much more in vogue with the first wave of Russian millionaires then now ). Shirts and jackets etc. that are emblazoned with designer names are just hideously naff and scream out that the wearer is a try hard faker. (Do Armani even make those t-shirts or are they all knock offs?)

As you said, women have an expert eye for evaluating your social standing by your clothes. If you can't afford expensive clothes (and I'm by no means saying you need to wear them to pull but it helps with the supermodel types) then you would be so much better off buying clothes from your local high street retailer (consider having them adjusted by a tailor to suit your physique better) then going for fakes. Fakes are poorly made and don't hang the way well tailored clothes do. You can also spot a person wearing fakes because they look in-congruent. There is no point wearing a fake designer shirt and jeans if you are also using an old Samsung mobile and a pair of sports shoes that have seen better ways and dragging around a cheap Chinese bag. We can spot it, and that certainly means a woman of style and class will be able to. And once she does your value will be almost zero.

I have an interest in fashion and wear some designer clothes but nothing that you would know was designer except by noticing the fit and quality. My outfit in the FSU is a slim fit shirt or RL slim fit polo shirt, a Diesel grey sweater that has a tiny barely readable logo over my left tit, dark blue jeans and a pair of black leather Prada pumps which has the red logo hidden under the laces. I travel with a Louis Vuitton Pegasse 55 rolling suitcase which can be taken on the plane as hand luggage. That does sound naff and will be few people's cup of tea, however in my defence I bought the black version which is very understated and you'd have to know about designer luggage to recognize it as a LV from a distance. I had the luggage label hot stamped with my initials in silver which is understated but gets noticed. What I do need is a better coat, I've seen a Burberry mac that is black with leather sleeves but would be impractical in a Russian winter. I've never considered a fur coat thinking it was a bit feminine however your mink and cashmere coat sounds sublime (no homo :) so I'll keep the idea in mind when I purchase something.

Tasteful designer wear (I use the word designer to mean clothes of impeccable fit and construction as opposed to just labels) will work wonders on the 7's and 8's and will allow you take a shot with more confidence and equal footing to the 9's and, if the opportunity arises, the supermodel 10's.

A great resource for men who just are not into clothes / fashion but would like to get some ideas should check out the 'styleforum. Com' which is a great resource.

[QUOTE=Borderland;1211243]And as we are on holiday we have few ways to show our wealth (we don't have our car with us, can't bring a girl back to our stylish home etc.) so the only thing open to us is our clothes (and gadgets ).[/QUOTE]This is very true and there are a good few conclusions to draw from this for freebies. First is that you should BRING PICTURES of your home / car / city etc. If you have them on a laptop this is a very natural way to ask a girl to come to your place to look at the pictures, and you can show her how you live and she'll start imaging herself in the pictures. This is a very good move. Hell go ahead and tell her you want to come visit while at the same time going for the kiss.

Second gadgets can be great, but don't overdo it. You want to use them as a way to get a girl to sit next to you, or hold her hands, etc. But you're not going to get an introduction due to a gadget, although I once got a number just because a girl in Vladimir saw me talking on a Moto RAZR (back in 2004/2005 I think). She asked to look at it and entered in her number.

Also some gadgets like iPhones / iPads are probably still good in the provinces for drawing attention. But you won't outright impress a girl with one, although I noticed for instance in provincial Russia even in 2008/2009 girls would take my iPhone and try to use it with their fingernails, and it doesn't work (since the screen is capacitive and needs meaty flesh to work). It's obvious that they had never seen a touchscreen before.

[QUOTE=Toptraveler1;1211322]But I'm not sure that we can find a lot of Russian intellectuals in club Che or in any other club in Moscow.[/QUOTE]Hum. I didn't say that one will find a lot of "intellectuals" in Moscow clubs, but that Moscow clubs are swarming with cosmopolitan, worldly, intelligent people. Successful people. Rich people. Elite people. Good looking people. High-powered businessmen, artists, actors and other members of high society. People who simply couldn't care less that you are a foreigner. Your statement of Moscow clubs being filled with gopniki whose only wish is to beat up to death any foreigner showing up was simply silly.

Anyhow, as to compare Ukrainians and Russians, I think that Russians are on the whole considerably smarter and more cultured than Ukrainians.

I also think that in places where sex-tourism is strong, like in Kiev or Chisinau, local guys have a strong and palpable resentment (and sometimes hate) towards sex hungry foreigners.

[QUOTE=Borderland;1211354]As you said, women have an expert eye for evaluating your social standing by your clothes.[/QUOTE]Indeed. But this is not that the girls will see you as a big fat wallett, but as someone correspondingly well-groomed they want to hang out with, have some fun with, and worth to have an adventure with.

[QUOTE=Latexian2;1211398]Hell go ahead and tell her you want to come visit while at the same time going for the kiss.[/QUOTE]Smooth, going to try that.

Showing her your photos is a great idea but you must be careful not to overdo it. Pictures of you leaning on Lamborghini's just looks try hard and will raise suspicions (the girl would wonder why you're in a cheap apartment somewhere in deepest Udmurtia and not Cannes. They already wonder WTF we are doing in these towns as it is ). The best photos are not fake or set up but just of you with your friends having a good time. It immediately gives you the social proof that you're lacking as a lone traveller. You with some good looking women would be good too. Also photos in cool locations so that you can use that to tell her a story about it which will raise your value. You should have a photo of your place of residence too, however not just a picture of your house by itself, that will look try hard. Instead have a picture of you sitting on your sofa (if you have a nice living room) looking good. That way the house is kind of incidental, however she will study it carefully and know that you are a man of quality and that she would feel comfortable visiting you there should you be kind enough to invite her one day (this would be a good picture to use the Latexian kiss strategy I would think ). I also have a couple of pictures in the file that have no value at all to the narrative (I. E out of focus shots, random picture of someone with half their head cropped off) again this just allays any suspicions that I'm bragging or being try hard and just makes the photo file look like any other file people would have on their laptop. This is quite important.

It could in some ways be seen as being a somewhat manipulative tool, however I would never project myself to be anything I'm not or stoop to lying a girl into bed. The idea is just to portray your life in the best possible light whilst discretely glossing over the mundane and the negatives.

[QUOTE=Prosal; 1211508]Hum. I didn't say that one will find a lot of "intellectuals" in Moscow clubs, but that Moscow clubs are swarming with cosmopolitan, worldly, intelligent people. Successful people. Rich people. Elite people. Good looking people. High-powered businessmen, artists, actors and other members of high society. People who simply couldn't care less that you are a foreigner. Your statement of Moscow clubs being filled with gopniki whose only wish is to beat up to death any foreigner showing up was simply silly.

Anyhow, as to compare Ukrainians and Russians, I think that Russians are on the whole considerably smarter and more cultured than Ukrainians.

I also think that in places where sex-tourism is strong, like in Kiev or Chisinau, local guys have a strong and palpable resentment (and sometimes hate) towards sex hungry foreigners.[/QUOTE]Prosal your statement is just emotional and does not make sens! Being rich, sucessful, good looking does not mean tolerant to me. You could also find many rich, sucessful and good looking people in Germany during the 1930s.

I don't know how much time you spent in Moscow to have such opinion about the people in this city and why you are so fascinated by russians but if you speak Russian, something I am sure you do, please just ask the « cosmopolite people » you meet in Moscow –especially people from ex sovietic republics- how they feel in this city and if they feel just safe.

Anyway if I was really thinking that ukrainians are so uncultured and russians are so good looking, worldly, rich and smart, as you do, I'the buy a ticket for Moscow tomorrow morning and would leave Ukraine forever.

By the way I never told that clubs in Moscow are «filled with gopniki whose only wish is to beat up to death any foreigner showing up'. Please read my comments again!

[QUOTE=Toptraveler1;1211693]russians are so worldly[/QUOTE]That is a pure fact. The "emerging" Russian middle classes take two to three trips a year on average (WTO numbers).

Anyhow seems that you like to argue. The point was not that Moscow was dangerous to Central Asians economic refugees. Of course it is. The (your) point was about safety in Moscow mid-to upper level clubs. And it is safe. Those clubs are filled with successful young professionals (men and women) who travel a lot and have no resentement or bad feelings towards foreigners. I am french, and can tell you that Russians are fond of french culture (there was some 1 millions Russian tourists that have visited Paris in 2010). I have not the feeling that Ukrainians are equally cultured and worldly. Furthermore, Russia is not touched by sex-tourism as Ukraine or Moldova are. As I said below, the more a place is invaded by sex-tourism, the more disdain (and sometimes hate) towards foreigners is palpable.

BTW you said you "lived a few years in Moscow", but a single search on your past posts reveals only questions about this city, such as "Hello, I need to know if there is any other expat club, except Ché, in Moscow and if there is any where we can dance salsa and "meet" girls?" or "Hello, anybody knows where we can find Toshkas in Moscow?". Strange, indeed. You seem to have a weird agenda.