Seeking Arrangements

Thanks Elvis for the mega write up. Lots of truth in there. And there is more to it than the money with the girls I know. As I said before, an affectionate relationship first and the gifts fall naturally and without effort from that.

Slightly OT again but it's such fun if you need a diversion go to the Diva Escorts website and browse girls. Prostitution is legal in the UK and Diva has one of the best sites for window shopping. It even lists each girls services. Does she CIM? COF? It's all there. The photos are photoshopped but honestly the Good girls are the same or better in person. Been with ten (ish) of these girls and can tell you they are 100% real and you fuck in their bed. It's great fun just to shop and fantasize about a future trip.

PS we need a Midwestern update on his girl! Dude! ??

[QUOTE=BrizLad;2484466]I have found that girls from Asian countries that we associate with lower priced pussy tend to ramp up their prices when they on [URL]seeking.com[/URL]. Trying to get back on topic, has anyone had success with Asian SB pussy when travelling in Asia?[/QUOTE]Singapore has always been high dollar but the SA gals there have a severe case of GPS for sure. Hong Kong is the same way with many of the gals, although I have had some 3-6 month SB's that were fun and reasonable. Only had one SA date in Thailand, but at it seems they really want to make sure you are in it for the long term before sex. It is still better than USA, which is the worst of all. I have a few more Asia countries to try. Looking forward to the journey.

Elvis, thanks for the mega post. A lot of what you say makes sense. In fact, the current gal that I am seeking an arrangement with said to me, "There's more to my life than men and money. In fact, men and money are a small part of my life. " To be honest, it was a bit of a revelation to me.

Someone asked about SAs in Asia. I'm in Shanghai, and I looked at the SA site several times, and each time, after spending about 30 minutes looking at the profiles, I felt exhausted. But in Shanghai, there are millions of migrant workers (people that come here from second tier Chinese cities to work). Many are single women or married women who are trying to support their kid back home. About 10 years ago, there was a senior poster in the Beijing forum who kept saying that these migrant workers were ideal targets for arrangements, PPMs, freebies, etc. I usually ignored his posts. One time, I even told him to stop posting useless info. But I now realize that he was TOTALLY right. So, since last year, I've been "seeking arrangements" with migrant workers. My friend in Singapore did the same for many years, with the Filipino maids that work in Singapore. You might ask how it's been going for me so far. And my reply is that it's been an adventure, I'm enjoying it, I'm getting laid this way, and so I'm still doing it.

Steve. A small update. There isn't much to report. I've been busy with work, and her Aunt Flo visited on Monday. We met for lunch once, which was a fucking drag, but I'm trying to boyfriend her, as you know. We also met up at the movie room again. You might recall that a movie room is like a KTV room, but instead of singing, you just rent the room to watch movies. Inside the room, there is a huge bed, and a huge screen TV. Hundreds, maybe thousands, of movies are available. The room rent is $8 per hour. We just put on a movie, and then we fool around. But we've never fucked in those rooms. It's probably not a good idea to do so. We're planning to spend the day together on Monday. Last night, she told me she shaved her pussy, for our date on Monday. She even sent me pictures and also a video of herself playing with her pussy. So, Monday looks promising. I haven't fucked her since almost 3 weeks ago. As far as "our arrangement," neither one of us has brought it up again, after we had that huge fight when I told her that I was married. My plan is to go ahead with the arrangement, but IF and ONLY IF we fuck a few times during the next few weeks. If we do, then one day I will suddenly surprise her with some money, and say it's my way of helping her out. Otherwise, I'm cutting bait. BTW, the receptionist is ignoring my texts. Oh well. I fucked her 4 times, which is not bad, but I wish she was still in the picture.

So since more folks are joining this thread and much of the good primer information is way back in Jan / Feb I thought I'the write a little intro to Seeking. Hope you enjoy and it helps others on their journey. Please note that this is for guys that enjoy the whole romance and simulated girlfriend thing. If you just want to find a girl to fuck there are plenty of those also.

Seeking Arrangement opened a whole new world for me -- Sugar Baby. Sugar Daddy dating. I had gotten a taste of this with Thifany (the girl from the São Paulo Boate that I flew to London for a week). I mean SBSD is really what we were doing when I flew her to London. I paid her a very reasonable allowance for the week and we just played boyfriend and girlfriend. What fun.

I came to realize through the Thifany experience that I like more than just paid sex. And in fact I love having a girlfriend. I enjoy texting each other. I enjoy that someone cares about me (even if she's pretending -- just never tell me so!) and of course I love the complete experience of dinners and dancing and just acting like real lovers. Not transactional sex partners. And SB / SD is all about this same experience. When done properly.

So how do you do it properly? I suppose this could vary widely depending on what you are after. But I am after a girl who FEELS like a girlfriend. She's affectionate, appreciates an evening above her usual stature in life, and is able to actually enjoy herself with you. She views the allowance / gift (I. E. Money!) as a bonus. Not the only thing she is after. Any girl where I feel money is the primary motivation and she will go with anyone for a high enough price, gets kicked straight to the curb. She's got to be a girlfriend first, and benefit second.

Knowing that this is the kind of girl I want to attract (and other guys I have talked to also find this persona the most attractive) there is a set of rules you have to play by. Understand that SA is NOT AT ALL like picking up hookers. It is much more like meeting a girl into a bar and seducing her to leave with you. It's just an online bar. Sure you need money, but you also need some distance game and you need to treat her with respect. If you do, you have a chance of closing the deal. However, the moment you disrespect her, she will be gone.

Most importantly, never discuss sex or money. These things will be implied and they will be done offline. Never discuss sex or money on SA and really never discuss sex at all. As soon as you are that explicit, the kind of girl you are after will feel disrespected and ghost you in no time flat.

So start with some light chat and flirt. Your opener should be something specific to her that you read in her profile -- not something generic. And ALWAYS end every message with a question. This prompts her to respond. If you don't ask a question, she will not take the initiative -- the conversation will just die. You have to drive it -- and you drive with questions. Get her to tell you a few things about herself -- what she likes to eat, her favorite wine, dog or cat person -- It doesn't really matter-- just something that will get her to engage a bit.

At some point you will establish that you like each other reasonably enough and one or the other will suggest to take the conversation off of SA and over to text. If she goes there in the first few exchanges, she is probably a hooker. If she doesn't ask for a pic pretty early on, she is probably a hooker. Often, I am the one to suggest going over to private phone text. You can keep it pretty innocuous, saying you notice she is not on often and it might be easier to connect up by text.

Once over to text, you can discuss allowance / gifts (never "her price" or "how much you charge") though some guys leave that for in person dates. Because I am a fly-in guy and want to close the deal -- I. E. Go to the room and have sex -- the very first night, I prefer to get this elephant out of the room before the date if possible. But again, you can't go straight here. Start first with how you see the date going.

I usually say something about going out and having an epic time and if the chemistry is right spending some private time (or intimate time or adult time -- insert your favorite euphemism -- but never say SEX! And ask if that sounds about right to them. Most often they will be down with this description -- I mean we are all on SA for a reason. This opens the door for the pricing discussion. I usually say something like "Of course I'the want to give you a gift. Did you have something in mind?" and the negotiation is underway. As of this writing, with A LOT of searching and false starts I'the say most big cities $400 is reasonable for a pretty girl (lots will ask more) with SF and NYC more like $500. $300 is more like it for second tier cities, and I've found a few gems at $200 (though more in the 6-7 category).

Once you have the "we are going to have sex, right" -- without saying it -- and money discussion out of the way, you should be good to go. Just keep on with the flirty texts without being too frequent, clingy or annoying and then meet up at the appointed day and time. More often than not, if you are not terribly objectionable looking, have a little bit of charm, and follow the "let's get out of here" model you might use with a regular pickup, you will end up in the room with your girl and have a rocking time.

[QUOTE=Mongerer88;2484583] Certainly there are arrests for picking up street decoys and a few citations for going to massage parlors that are unlicensed and where sex is found to occur during sting operations, but that is rare.

Law enforcement has never had success in attacking escorts who screen, or their customers. It is a purchase of time and companionship, which is legal. Sugar arrangements are even safer legally than that.
[/QUOTE]Mongerer,

Whenever I talk about this subject, I run into denial on the part of men. For some reason, men who engage in prostitution think of themselves as law abiding citizens instead of the criminals they really are. In fact, you probably wince at me just using that word.

For law enforcement (LE), there was not a lot of success prosecuting people for a victimless crime. Until there was active promotion of a campaign against human trafficking. Now all of sudden there were victims, and men were the perpetrators.

Most white people, and I am white, are happy thinking the police / law enforcement are there to protect them, when they arrest someone there is good cause, when the police do use violence, they are justified. Again, there is the thinking the police like me and would never shoot me because I am a law abiding citizen, and I get it. People are happy believing that, and they attack anyone who bursts their bubble. If that is the case, quit reading right here.

So when I show you this story about how a DEA agent just took someone's life savings, $16,000, do you defend LE and the government? And think this agent probably had a good reason? Maybe you think there was something more to this story. [URL]https://www.abqjournal.com/580107/dea-agents-seize-16000-from-aspiring-music-video-producer.html[/URL].

What was more to the story was that it was just the tip of the iceberg. "A Washington Post investigation last year found that local, state and federal agents nationwide have seized $2. 5 billion in cash from almost 62,000 people since 2001 – without warrants or indictments. It's unknown how many got their money back. ".

The typical monger cheers on the crackdown on human trafficking. I don't. I see LE looking at all the cash in prostitution like a kid looking at candy through a glass window trying to figure out how they can get that cash, and human trafficking was the rock used to break the window.

I saw how the government operated. First, there are the brochures about human trafficking, then more brochures, then the tragic media reports of those trafficked, then the elevation of more and more media stories about trafficking, and finally we are at crisis level where "something has to be done".

Guys who had sugar babies were like we are helping women out, we would never be busted for trafficking. I tried to tell them trafficking was just the excuse. LE wanted your money and was going to shake you down using it as an excuse.

I ran into a lot of resistance. Then Robert Kraft got arrested: [URL]https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/palm-beach/fl-ne-robert-kraft-prostitution-case-appeal-fight-20191227-h7aepphb2jfzvl52qpmn5a2ibu-story.html[/URL].

"But now lawyers for the state are arguing for the first time that Kraft — charged with two misdemeanor counts of soliciting prostitution — actually committed a felony.

The latest court filing from the Attorney General's Office suggests Kraft could face a third-degree felony punishable by up to five years in prison, if the state wins its appeal of a lower court order favoring the billionaire."

LE arrested Kraft for getting a hand job and wanted to put him in jail for 5 years.

And what do you think the DAs droned about as a reason to put Kraft in jail? Supporting trafficking. Kraft was not the only one arrested, and no one was charged with trafficking, but LE wanted to stop trafficking even when in cases like this there was none.

When you are paying women cash for sex, do you think of yourself as a criminal? Do you automatically go in thinking what happened to Kraft could not happen to you?

You see with me I know when I pay for sex I am a criminal, but I do all I can to blur the lines. I know what happened to Kraft could happen to me, and I do all that I can and learn all I can so I am not a charged criminal. I get the denial but I think that is a question of putting happiness over safety. Still, people attack those who threaten their happiness, and I do not want to be attacked any more. Been there, done that.

No, you make unwarranted jumps in your logic and conclusions.

And you don't study actual arrests.

I think asset forfeiture and seizure is terrible. I mentioned it in my post. It is applied against those with cash earned from a supposedly illegal activity. It affects sex workers and what few remaining agencies exist. It doesn't effect Johns unless that John picks up a streetwalker in his car in certain jurisdictions. So don't pick up streetwalkers. Asset forfeiture doesn't effect the bank accounts of Johns. There isn't illegal cash there.

Kraft went to a massage parlor with several ladies working there at once. The massage parlor was under internal surveillance. Granted that was a relatively new and abusive law enforcement technique and I hope like hell that the courts continue to kick law enforcement's ass over it. But it was a commercial facility operating under a business license and the warrant was granted for surveillance as a result of supposed illegal activity occurring there that involved multiple women. Different activity than what its business license allowed That is tremendously different from the granting of a surveillance warrant for a residential location where only one lady is present at a time. Tremendously different. A commercial license in a business district is simply treated differently.

The gold standard for John safety from a law enforcement perspective is outcall to a hotel room or his residence with an escort who has her own website and who has reviews. The gold standard for escort safety from law enforcement is incall to an apartment zoned for residential purposes after the customer has been screened. They are both safe from law enforcement activities.

Sugar arrangements are even safer, but what I described above is already safe. Damn expensive and a hassle, but safe.

No-screening Backpage type encounters, massage parlors, strip joints (including the parking lot of strip joints) and certainly the streets are not safe in the USA.

But you can't take citations and arrests from one activity and extrapolate it to other activities.

And for what it is worth, I think the police go overboard on a regular basis in many areas. But that doesn't keep me from studying and thinking, and I don't take nonsense from bad 8 pm TV crime dramas and assume the police techniques shown there actually happen.

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2484827]Mongerer,

Whenever I talk about this subject, I run into denial on the part of men. For some reason, men who engage in prostitution think of themselves as law abiding citizens instead of the criminals they really are. In fact, you probably wince at me just using that word.

For law enforcement (LE), there was not a lot of success prosecuting people for a victimless crime. Until there was active promotion of a campaign against human trafficking. Now all of sudden there were victims, and men were the perpetrators.

Most white people, and I am white, are happy thinking the police / law enforcement are there to protect them, when they arrest someone there is good cause, when the police do use violence, they are justified. Again, there is the thinking the police like me and would never shoot me because I am a law abiding citizen, and I get it. People are happy believing that, and they attack anyone who bursts their bubble. If that is the case, quit reading right here.

So when I show you this story about how a DEA agent just took someone's life savings, $16,000, do you defend LE and the government? And think this agent probably had a good reason? Maybe you think there was something more to this story. [URL]https://www.abqjournal.com/580107/dea-agents-seize-16000-from-aspiring-music-video-producer.html[/URL].[/QUOTE]

Steve, all of your advice and suggestions are SPOT on!

Elvis, I agree with a lot of what you said. I know many MP gals in the states, and none of them were trafficked. When they get arrested, they say they're were forced into the business because they don't want to admit they voluntarily entered this line of work. But I'm not saying that trafficking doesn't happen, of course. But I have a question for you. What's the main takeaway that we should take from your recent posts? Are you suggesting that we can get arrested for SB / SD relationships? Sorry that I'm dense.

[QUOTE=Midwestern;2484905]Steve, all of your advice and suggestions are SPOT on!

Elvis, I agree with a lot of what you said. I know many MP gals in the states, and none of them were trafficked. When they get arrested, they say they're were forced into the business because they don't want to admit they voluntarily entered this line of work. But I'm not saying that trafficking doesn't happen, of course. But I have a question for you. What's the main takeaway that we should take from your recent posts? Are you suggesting that we can get arrested for SB / SD relationships? Sorry that I'm dense.[/QUOTE]The women work in MPs with tourist visas usually are rotated from city to city arranged by an organization. Although they are not forced. The law enforcement is going to find a way to apply or interpret the law in a way that considers the arrangement as sex trafficking.

If a group is determined to stop something but can't change the existing law, they are going to do it by creating another law to achieve it indirectly. The example being selling sex is legal, but buying is illegal, and the case of backpage. You can also bet there is a group plotting to create another law to get the user private data collected by the big high tech companies because they can't do it like the way China does it.

The country is great that is as long as you don't get involved with the law in some way and not on the receiving end of it. Because often one will find out the law does not work the way it is intended and it is not the same as what we see on TV shows. The nicest thing when someone is poor is that no one will sue you but also no one will seek justice for you. The opposite is also true like in the case of Kraft that Elvis mentioned

And that is how our government are in deadlock all the time.

My 2 cents

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2484827]Mongerer,

Whenever I talk about this subject, I run into denial on the part of men. For some reason, men who engage in prostitution think of themselves as law abiding citizens instead of the criminals they really are. In fact, you probably wince at me just using that word.

For law enforcement (LE), there was not a lot of success prosecuting people for a victimless crime. Until there was active promotion of a campaign against human trafficking. Now all of sudden there were victims, and men were the perpetrators.

Most white people, and I am white, are happy thinking the police / law enforcement are there to protect them, when they arrest someone there is good cause, when the police do use violence, they are justified. Again, there is the thinking the police like me and would never shoot me because I am a law abiding citizen, and I get it. People are happy believing that, and they attack anyone who bursts their bubble. If that is the case, quit reading right here..[/QUOTE]Too many generalizations. Also, you continually assume there is something or someone called typical monger, and that you know what that typical monger thinks. It is almost as if you think you are some objective, wise observer standing apart from the rest of the crowd passing judgement on them. Sorry to burst your bubble, you are also part of the typical monger crowd, whatever that means.

Most of us, or many of us anyway, know SB / SD is borderline gray area. Some of us also use escort services in US, some use street walkers, some used Craig's list, backpage, paid strippers for sex, what not. People do risky things. Some times they are aware of the risk, compute the risk and are accepting of the risk reward trade off. Sometimes, they underestimate the risk. Sometimes, their brain stops working and they do dumb stuff. When we are away from the scene, sitting alone in front of the computer and typing, many of us are able to analyze this in more cold calculated fashion and evaluate the risk.

It is up to each person to manage his own risk when it comes to SB / SD stuff or other forms of escorting. If you are not comfortable with that risk, go to Germany and fuck girls in FKKs which is quite legal. Or any other place that floats your boat.

But there is no need for lectures. The reality is that mongers are well traveled, hardcore bunch and know the realities of the world. You can even say jaded.

[QUOTE=Midwestern;2484905]What's the main takeaway that we should take from your recent posts? Are you suggesting that we can get arrested for SB / SD relationships? Sorry that I'm dense.[/QUOTE]Honestly, MW, I was just going through why I went from escorts to sugar daddy to international sugar daddy, and I was hoping others would tell their story.

As for LE, LE came right out and said if you are paying for sex, you are supporting human trafficking. That was why DAs said Kraft should be jailed for 5 years.

It would be hard to sell a college coed as being trafficked and I have not heard too much about LE going after the SD SB thing, but it is crazy right now. It is sad because for decades LE left us alone if no one got hurt. Even the sex workers are griping this is not helping them.

But I am not interested in this topic. I just saw things had come to a stand still and I am interested in why other guys became sugar daddies.

[QUOTE=BrizLad;2484466]I have found that girls from Asian countries that we associate with lower priced pussy tend to ramp up their prices when they on [URL]seeking.com[/URL]. Trying to get back on topic, has anyone had success with Asian SB pussy when travelling in Asia?[/QUOTE]SA price is higher is a phenomenon across almost all countries I have experience with.

I think the only Asian country for mongering that is worthwhile on SA is Indonesia because I find it easier to find SB and less scams. Other countries like Thailand have their own dating sites so very few girls use SA even though they have a large population of prostitutes. There are many scams that are based in HK so skip all girls that use HK numbers. This includes the west coast in US. The Asian locals that use SA are seeking foreigners mostly or are expats living there. If I describe someone I met from SA in a specific city now, it is possible that you will able to identify the person if you try hard enough. There are not many choices after the scams are filtered out.

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2484956]Honestly, MW, I was just going through why I went from escorts to sugar daddy to international sugar daddy, and I was hoping others would tell their story.

As for LE, LE came right out and said if you are paying for sex, you are supporting human trafficking. That was why DAs said Kraft should be jailed for 5 years.

It would be hard to sell a college coed as being trafficked and I have not heard too much about LE going after the SD SB thing, but it is crazy right now. It is sad because for decades LE left us alone if no one got hurt. Even the sex workers are griping this is not helping them.

But I am not interested in this topic. I just saw things had come to a stand still and I am interested in why other guys became sugar daddies.[/QUOTE]My move to SB had nothing to do with LE. I became a P411 member about 3 years ago. For those who don't know what P411 is it is a verification service run out of Canada that vets both sides to make sure no one is LE and has an "okays" system so girls can avoid weirdos. It really works pretty well and I've had several nice girls thru P411 including one of my ATFs Asian Christine who was my hot Filipina girlfriend for four straight nights but at about $2000 and just 6-8 hours total time. Don't know if they still accept new members — they closed up shop for a while when SESTA / FOSTA came out. If you want a safe hooker they are a good bet.

But then as I said in my primer below it was the real GFE with Thifany in London that got me into SB. And by GFE in this sense I mean beyond the bedroom. Romantic dinners. Dancing till 3 AM. Holding hands and walking in the park. Texting when apart. And of course legendary rather meaningful sex.

So that taste made me want a "girlfriend" instead of an escort. And of course for the same $400 you don't get an hour, you get an evening. And sometimes a full overnight. So it's truly awesome. Plus it does seem safe.

Of course I like my girls in all forms and venues. So the Boates of Brazil, the FKK of Germany, the Strip Clubs in Russia, the Love Hotels in Tokyo, the Ro-girls incall in London, the bar pickup in Shanghai (now mostly defunct). It's all too awesome to pass up when traveling abroad. But in the US? Seeking is the only game in town for me.

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2484956]Honestly, MW, I was just going through why I went from escorts to sugar daddy to international sugar daddy, and I was hoping others would tell their story.

But I am not interested in this topic. I just saw things had come to a stand still and I am interested in why other guys became sugar daddies.[/QUOTE]My reasons for becoming an SD is pretty much identical to Steve's reasons. This doesn't mean that I only seek SB / SD relationships. I still see pros regularly.

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2484827]Then Robert Kraft got arrested: [URL]https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/palm-beach/fl-ne-robert-kraft-prostitution-case-appeal-fight-20191227-h7aepphb2jfzvl52qpmn5a2ibu-story.html[/URL].

"But now lawyers for the state are arguing for the first time that Kraft charged with two misdemeanor counts of soliciting prostitution actually committed a felony.

The latest court filing from the Attorney General's Office suggests Kraft could face a third-degree felony punishable by up to five years in prison, if the state wins its appeal of a lower court order favoring the billionaire."

LE arrested Kraft for getting a hand job and wanted to put him in jail for 5 years.

And what do you think the DAs droned about as a reason to put Kraft in jail? Supporting trafficking. Kraft was not the only one arrested, and no one was charged with trafficking, but LE wanted to stop trafficking even when in cases like this there was none.[/QUOTE]This is all old news that is misleading in its presentation. In January, the Florida prosecutors backed off a claim that Kraft committed a felony. The prosecutor's appeal to a higher court was to instate the video as evidence. A lower court threw out the video. In any event, in August the higher court upheld the lower court's suppression of the video evidence.

Whether this was your intent or not, your post reads in its sequence that the prosecutors were appealing the designation of a misdemeanor and trying to get the crime raised to a felony. Prosecutors typically can't appeal verdicts or charges. They appeal procedural rulings by a court such as the suppression of the video.

[QUOTE=Steve9696;2484819]So since more folks are joining this thread and much of the good primer information is way back in Jan / Feb I thought I'the write a little intro to Seeking. Hope you enjoy and it helps others on their journey. Please note that this is for guys that enjoy the whole romance and simulated girlfriend thing. If you just want to find a girl to fuck there are plenty of those also.[/QUOTE]Steve, I have gone back and read your earlier posts and experiences from Jan / Feb. I think what would be helpful is how you screen SBs on the SA website. Now it might be hard to generalize what are the positive profiles. It seems like some attractive girls are super chill and the first impression is they want to hang out and have a good time. Others seem more sexually forward implying they are ready to get down. Perhaps both of these profiles are worth a response.

I would think it would be easier to look for negatives. Over the top requirements for long-term allowances, luxury shopping and international travel seem like a no-go. Phrases like "I know what I am worth" seem like a surefire GPS alert. The word "platonic' seems like a non-starter, but some guys on other boards seem to think that's just for public consumption and privately everyone knows what SA is all about. I'm not sure I would spend time responding to this type of profile. I'm sure there are other red flags.

Do you recommend prioritizing girls who are new to the site? Conversely, do you avoid girls who mention they have had several great SD relationships? Do you prefer a girl who has a bikini photo? Or do you prefer a more modest girl? I would think a girl with just head shots and a description like "curvy" or "a few extra pounds" would be problematic.

I'm not trying to answer my question. I am interested in Steve and other's take on initial screening.