East China - Shanghai

[QUOTE=SamCan;1771223]I have done overnight (at 1 am) for 1200-1500. What you are stating is starting price. Push a little! I always ask all those questions up front before leaving the bar. If they don't want the pay after, I will give half, if they don't want that, I walk on. I also state one more pop than I think I can do so I have agreement on what I am getting.[/QUOTE]Same here. Under 1500 for overnight is the norm for me. But I tend to go on week days (Sunday through Wednesday). Also the later it gets, say after 2 am, the more willing they are to negotiate.

[QUOTE=Arizona123;1771394]Same here. Under 1500 for overnight is the norm for me. But I tend to go on week days (Sunday through Wednesday). Also the later it gets, say after 2 am, the more willing they are to negotiate.[/QUOTE]I would also say the "lower rate chance" is connected a lot with the actual situation in the bar. They are all "dealers" who have only one "product" in stock (or how a girls told me recently: "Unfortunately I have only one pussy" And it is a fact, that they can not sell more another day if they have less today, so from economic aspects the daily profit maximization must be the unconditional goal!

So if the girls have a chance to find a better deal (which they loose if they leave with you), they would be stupid to agree in a lower deal. And will not agree. If they have a high risk to end up with no deal, they would be stupid to refuse your. Even cheap. Offer. So the actual situation is one of the most important point of price range!

And beside that, for sure also the estimate of how easily they can rip you off! If the bar has many "potential customers for them", but they also feel a good chance to sell a overnight to you, cheat you by leave after one shoot, than go back and take another deal, than they are also willing to agree to a lower price. Which for sure will not follow up to a "afterwards payment" agreement!

That doesn't mean all girls who not agree to a "pay later solution" planned to rip you off. I know many girls there who simply had a bad experience with guys who ripped them off by finally paid less or nothing, so this girls set up a rule never risk that again. Even they never agree to serve without forehand payment, some of them will also not cheat you, but the problem is, how to find out what is her plan if you pay forehand.

Personally I don't like the feeling, that the girl in my bed actually want to leave, but only because of outstanding payment she must remain. So I always pay forehand and some girls leave after one shoot, some appreciate my trust in them and want in return give something back. Which mostly follow up to great girlfriend experience, some of them appreciate a lot to met such a "greenhorn" and happy to leave after one shoot. Unfortunately the share of the second group has increased a lot over the last 3 to 4 years, from my view one of the reason why I say this kind of service go down the hill. And the girls not understand, that there benefit of cheating today is there loose of business tomorrow.

If you talk about that with them. What I do often with Vietnamese working girls when I visit friends in their apartments. You will find out, that they follow the idea, that no one can know what will be tomorrow, but the money they have in their pocket today will be a fact.

Not great from customer view, but understandable regarding to visa policy, changing rules and situation, illegality of the business and so on.

And another word to the negotiation strategy. I would suggest that everyone should be clear about his targets and make sure his "strategy" matched to his target!

I am personally very sure, that the way and amount you should pay depends also a lot on what you are looking for.

If you are looking for just a "pussy", I think hard negotiation is not a problem, but if you are looking for something in girlfriend experience style (which for example is my desire), than I strongly believe, you reduce your chance a lot with a hard negotiation.

Personally I can not believe, that a girl who just "lost" a hard strong battle about the price (which is from her view for sure also a "rating" of her attractiveness) one hour later will feel you are such a good guy and good friend that she can relax on your side and for herself feel like having a boyfriend sex situation. Really? I don't believe that!

For sure she will still have your posting in mind, that she not deserve more than this 800 (or what ever), because many other girls around you also could take.

And from my experience revenge is a typical reaction. Especially from girls. If they will get the chance for that.

And while you have sex, she is the one who decide what and how she serve you (except you force her to do what you want. What is not normal in a "girlfriend sex action", that's why I said it depends on the sex style you expect).

I would guess most girls are able to get their revenge if they like, just by giving you a service that they feel you got a lot of fun less for the 500 RMB you saved.

From psychology view that is obvious, but I also know that from psychology view all guys who "play" that "price down strategy" - from their view successful and without any disadvantage. Need to deny that, simply to avoid loose the feeling, that what they are doing is right.

So the normal "self confidence correction effect" will be, that if a girl serve bad, they will be 100% sure it was right to not to pay her more, because she is a bad provider, if she notwithstanding provide a good girlfriend experience, they will be reinforced, that their strategy is the best. In psychology that very common effect is called a "self-fulfilling prophecy".

But the question is, if you would negotiate generally less "hard", would you also generally get better service that is worth (from your point of view) the additional spending? If you are looking for a girlfriend experience, I think so.

But again, that is only my personal view and I really don't want to offend anyone, but simply dropping a different view of things in the discussion about the price range to avoid, that all people here will think the "low price strategy" is the only option they have without "wasting" money.

Have fun and great pickups.

[QUOTE=Arizona123;1771394]Same here. Under 1500 for overnight is the norm for me. But I tend to go on week days (Sunday through Wednesday). Also the later it gets, say after 2 am, the more willing they are to negotiate.[/QUOTE]Thanks for the feedback from you both. And from Shanghai Nightlife. I typically start a little early (11 PM?) - and try to leave by 1 AM. I know that this means a higher price. But I am just getting too old to stay up later. I do generally not negotiate too hard (although LT typically started last time at 2500. Ended up at 1700). Do think it affect the quality.

I do now talk about the payment only at the end. And will not go with someone if there is not agreement. Good thought to offer half up front for LT. It would be less than the ST cost. So may try that if I get stuck.

Anyone around on the 18th, 19th or 25th to try a KTV run?

Will

Totally agree. You cannot expect the girl to be lovey dovey after you drove a hard bargain. That is why I prefer sauna, where there is no haggling over price ( not that necessarily mean the girl will be in a better mood or give better service as a result), over MP or pick up bars. But the fun for some is from the hunt and the back and forth.

If you're looking for rock bottom prices, you can't complain when you get a lower service level.

Carrot or the Stick my friends. Happy encounters are more likely with a girl that is happy she met you. If you're a last ditch option (because of your low money or a hole attitude), you're going reap what you have sown.

BODI UPDATE.

I had one day in Shanghai and my favorite girl was unavailable so I went to Bodi.

AWESOME lineup. The fishbowl is back for the second time (in 4 months) for me instead of a dimly lit hallway lineup of 6 with 2 other punters standing next to me. 25 girls with many hotties.

With so many hot girls and only one punter (me) on this side of the glass, it was a tough decision.

I decided on a girl that looked at me and smiled. For only a brief moment. That method has served me well. It's very telling when a girl will interatct with you while the other girls are staring straight ahead with a blank expression.

After the service, we chatted and she reinforced the fact that they are afraid of foreigners because they think we're all packing elephant dicks and will rip them apart.

When you Asian guys go in front of a fish bowl, are you getting more than 3 in 25 who will actually look your way or even smile? I'm an OK looking guy and in OK shape. If these were American girls I'm sure I would get a better reaction from them.

I remember a couple years ago. A guy in manhattans was pushing to get a girl cheap. He said, "this girl is going to learn a thing about negotiation!" he then said, "it doesn't matter, they are all lousy in bed anyway. HAHA. I laughed then because he never put the cause with the effect.

I have also had girls tell me "I like you, I will give you last price, don't need to play" sometimes it is a good price, sometimes it is every other girls first price. Regardless, I came to the conclusion that there is an expectation of some push back. I have found 1500 to be the asking price for overnight. 1200 seems to be the sweet spot. Girls will offer that quickly if you say no to the 1500.

I have had my best and worst experience at 1000. Two different girls (in 2015) quoted me 1000 for overnight. The first girl was Mae. She was 36 and fresh off the plane that day from Viet nam. She said she worked in an office in Viet Nam. I think she might have. The sex was GFE ad I think maybe she had not had any in a while. Maybe she was not sleeping around in Viet nam or maybe she just liked sex. She was so good, I always regretted not getting her number. Another one in August of 2015 was kissing my neck, my ears, rubbing up against me, getting me hard. She said she only wanted 1000 for all night. She was ready to leave the bar and wanted to go. We went to my place, had one pop and she wanted to sleep. I tried to kiss her ear and she said she wanted to sleep. I tossed her out and slept by myself. I prefer sleeping by myself than with a stranger I just met. OK she won that round but I slept well!

I met a 24 year old named Ray (May 2015). I grabbed her the first night for 1500. We had one BJ 2 FS pops and I asked her to go. She didn' t want to go. She liked my bed and slept wrapped around me. I finally said she had to so I could sleep.

I saw Ray 2 nights later. I had met a german expat (Steven? Haha) and he told me not to pay more than 1000 for overnight (may 2015). Ray showed up and asked me to go with her. I told her my friend said 1000 was the rate. She accepted (at midnight on a Saturday) and it was back to my place. Sex was just as good as 1500 rmb sex.

Bottom line, maybe I need to take a girls first offer and see if there is a difference. What I have paid has never provide a consistent cost or experience. I would gladly pay more for a better experience but I have not found that yet. I guess when you are dealing with people. (who are all different,) what do we expect?

SAM CAN.

So Sam my man.

Bottom line. You going to send me Ray and Mae's numbers? Hahaha!

[QUOTE=SamCan;1771624]I remember a couple years ago. A guy in manhattans was pushing to get a girl cheap. He said, "this girl is going to learn a thing about negotiation!" he then said, "it doesn't matter, they are all lousy in bed anyway. HAHA. I laughed then because he never put the cause with the effect.

I have also had girls tell me "I like you, I will give you last price, don't need to play" sometimes it is a good price, sometimes it is every other girls first price. Regardless, I came to the conclusion that there is an expectation of some push back. I have found 1500 to be the asking price for overnight. 1200 seems to be the sweet spot. Girls will offer that quickly if you say no to the 1500.

I have had my best and worst experience at 1000. Two different girls (in 2015) quoted me 1000 for overnight. The first girl was Mae. She was 36 and fresh off the plane that day from Viet nam. She said she worked in an office in Viet Nam. I think she might have. The sex was GFE ad I think maybe she had not had any in a while. Maybe she was not sleeping around in Viet nam or maybe she just liked sex. She was so good, I always regretted not getting her number. Another one in August of 2015 was kissing my neck, my ears, rubbing up against me, getting me hard. She said she only wanted 1000 for all night. She was ready to leave the bar and wanted to go. We went to my place, had one pop and she wanted to sleep. I tried to kiss her ear and she said she wanted to sleep. I tossed her out and slept by myself. I prefer sleeping by myself than with a stranger I just met. OK she won that round but I slept well!

I met a 24 year old named Ray (May 2015). I grabbed her the first night for 1500. We had one BJ 2 FS pops and I asked her to go. She didn' t want to go. She liked my bed and slept wrapped around me. I finally said she had to so I could sleep.

I saw Ray 2 nights later. I had met a german expat (Steven? Haha) and he told me not to pay more than 1000 for overnight (may 2015). Ray showed up and asked me to go with her. I told her my friend said 1000 was the rate. She accepted (at midnight on a Saturday) and it was back to my place. Sex was just as good as 1500 rmb sex.

Bottom line, maybe I need to take a girls first offer and see if there is a difference. What I have paid has never provide a consistent cost or experience. I would gladly pay more for a better experience but I have not found that yet. I guess when you are dealing with people. (who are all different,) what do we expect?

SAM CAN.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Arizona123;1771641]So Sam my man.

Bottom line. You going to send me Ray and Mae's numbers? Hahaha![/QUOTE]I wish I had them!

[QUOTE=Stegram;1771552]If you're looking for rock bottom prices, you can't complain when you get a lower service level.

Carrot or the Stick my friends. Happy encounters are more likely with a girl that is happy she met you. If you're a last ditch option (because of your low money...., you're going reap what you have sown.
[/QUOTE]Unfortunately I disagree in the most part. There is no correlation between amount spent and service level. We want to think and believe we make them like us more by spending more on them, but instead the vast majority end up taking you for a sucker and try their best to maximize their take. Instead of providing a great service, they hold back hoping to make you give even more. Like others here, my best experiences have come from the lower end of the going rate in any region I have been. My worst experience was the most expensive I ever paid for, but I have also had 1 or 2 very good services from the high end 'pricers'.

Sam is right we are dealing with unpredictable humans, but they can also be quite predictable. The one constant I have always found is that providers that are quick to demand payment upfront always tend to provide lower quality service. I have found very few exceptions to this rule, very few indeed.

I think saunas may be switching their girls' numbers around. I can understand promotions to a higher tier because a girl got great reviews, but I suspect they sometimes just switch numbers to make it looks like they have more girls than there actually are.

I keep a log of the girls with a little note about the session when I was on my way home. I took this girl last evening who had a number I had not been with before, but I was almost sure, as we played, I was with her a month ago, but she had a different number then.

So unless you can remember faces well, you may not get the repeat you were looking for, or trying to avoid.

Here's something else to throw into this debate. Manhattan, Judy's, MP's, sauna's, independents. Some of these girls live together and they talk about their customers. Yes, even the independents. So if you're a regular at these places, some of the girls will know about you, how much you negotiated to get the girl out the door for ST or LT, how much you tip them after the happy ending, how you treat them, even the type of hotels you're staying at, is it a 5 star or a Motel168. Of course this applies only when you frequent the same place but switch girls, it does affect the expectations from the girls when they negotiate.

[QUOTE=NorthSouth;1771945]I think saunas may be switching their girls' numbers around. I can understand promotions to a higher tier because a girl got great reviews, but I suspect they sometimes just switch numbers to make it looks like they have more girls than there actually are.

I keep a log of the girls with a little note about the session when I was on my way home. I took this girl last evening who had a number I had not been with before, but I was almost sure, as we played, I was with her a month ago, but she had a different number then.

So unless you can remember faces well, you may not get the repeat you were looking for, or trying to avoid.[/QUOTE]I discussed that issue with my sauna section manager, and we both are sure, that they not switch numbers to let them look like they would have more girls. The main reason will be, that every "switch" cause additional problems, because many regular Chinese customers do a reservation, the girls also get "bonus" for recalls and so on. All this getting more complicate and will cause frustration, if they change numbers, so the "effect" compared with the upcoming problems would not make too much sense.

So from that view I would guess very less saunas will change girls numbers because of this reason.

But it still could be it happened and followed to your experience, because there is really a case where girls need to change the numbers.

Most sauna clubs now have different number "categories" for their different price and "model" range.

For sure all girls want to charge the higher rate, but normally beginners don't get this chance.

So if a girl will get "upgraded" to a "higher level", she also will need to change the number, because other categories have other number systems (like for example another "block" of numbers like "9 XX instead of 7 XX or an additional sign like A888 instead of B888 and so on).

But I would guess a "number exchange" in between a number category will be an extremely exception.

Have fun, what ever the number will be.

[QUOTE=Arizona123;1771977]Here's something else to throw into this debate. Manhattan, Judy's, MP's, sauna's, independents. Some of these girls live together and they talk about their customers. Yes, even the independents. So if you're a regular at these places, some of the girls will know about you, how much you negotiated to get the girl out the door for ST or LT, how much you tip them after the happy ending, how you treat them, even the type of hotels you're staying at, is it a 5 star or a Motel168. Of course this applies only when you frequent the same place but switch girls, it does affect the expectations from the girls when they negotiate.[/QUOTE]

I remember a post. But don't remember who it was apologies for not giving credit. He took a Viagara (or 2 haha) offered a girl at Manhattans 3000 RMB if she could rock his world for the night. this was a few years ago. so 3000 went that much further.

Well she did....... and he paid up. For the longest time, he could not get a girl to quote anything below 3000.

Arizona! To your point!

[QUOTE=ShanghaiGuide;1772006]I discussed that issue with my sauna section manager, and we both are sure, that they not switch numbers to let them look like they would have more girls. The main reason will be, that every "switch" cause additional problems, because many regular Chinese customers do a reservation, the girls also get "bonus" for recalls and so on. All this getting more complicate and will cause frustration, if they change numbers, so the "effect" compared with the upcoming problems would not make too much sense.

So from that view I would guess very less saunas will change girls numbers because of this reason.

But it still could be it happened and followed to your experience, because there is really a case where girls need to change the numbers.

Most sauna clubs now have different number "categories" for their different price and "model" range.

For sure all girls want to charge the higher rate, but normally beginners don't get this chance.

So if a girl will get "upgraded" to a "higher level", she also will need to change the number, because other categories have other number systems (like for example another "block" of numbers like "9 XX instead of 7 XX or an additional sign like A888 instead of B888 and so on).

But I would guess a "number exchange" in between a number category will be an extremely exception.

Have fun, what ever the number will be.[/QUOTE]Well, I know for a fact that saunas owned by the same group rotate their girls. (Namely 999, SiYuan, Bodi, New Jade Screen, Southern).

And when the rotations occur, the number changes. The girls tell me the rotation typically occurs every three months sometimes earlier so the customers will get a fresh selection.

My rule of thumb is that if I haven't been to a particular sauna for more than two months, then it is almost certain the number no longer works.

Usually, if I "reserve" a girl that I have never been with the locker room staff will remind me that who I have in mind might not be the same girl I am looking for.

And there were a couple instances where the girl who showed up is indeed totally different from whom I was expecting.

If she looks appealing then I will keep her. If she is not my type, I will tell the manager that she isn't the same person.

Usually the manager will explain to me that the original number X now works at a different location or she is on holiday.

Yes, the girls get bonuses for having reservations by repeat customers, I don't know how they work it out if the number changes though.

[QUOTE=Kib123;1771709]Unfortunately I disagree in the most part. There is no correlation between amount spent and service level. We want to think and believe we make them like us more by spending more on them, but instead the vast majority end up taking you for a sucker and try their best to maximize their take. Instead of providing a great service, they hold back hoping to make you give even more. Like others here, my best experiences have come from the lower end of the going rate in any region I have been. My worst experience was the most expensive I ever paid for, but I have also had 1 or 2 very good services from the high end 'pricers'.

Sam is right we are dealing with unpredictable humans, but they can also be quite predictable. The one constant I have always found is that providers that are quick to demand payment upfront always tend to provide lower quality service. I have found very few exceptions to this rule, very few indeed.[/QUOTE]Kib it seems that you have interpreted my meaning to be that girls who charge more are better in the sack. Absolutely not true.

My point is that if you beat a girl down too far from her normal price, THAT girl has less incentive to provide good service because you are not a full paying customer FOR HER, and her incentive to want to get you to see her again has gone down. This is a common business acumen and there's no reason it does not apply here. Companies expect to negotiate contracts but if you beat them down to where they don't really profit you are going to get what you get.

By beating her fee down below expectation, you have lowered the chance that THIS girl will provide you a good experience. You're going to get what you get.

Nothing is a for sure and none of the applies every time. It's just playing the odds. I'd rather pay 15% more than the rock bottom possible price to have a 35% better chance at a good session with an attentive girl.