American Politics

[QUOTE=JustTK;2754111]Sorry, but I dno nt accept that at all. The metrics have been heavily criticised and are biased to the USA. They don't equalise differences across countires properly. It's similar to how some people try to use IQ tests to demonstrate that black people are more genetically stupid. It doesn't work bcos you cannot apply the same metric across different countries.

And even if they did, it would have nothing to do with my points that middle classes are being squeezed. To confron that claim you would have to demonstrate that the middle class is no worse off now in real terms than it was in previous years. And it has nothing to do with the inequality.[/QUOTE]Why would the OECD, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which generated the metrics, be USA biased? It's headquartered in France and the majority of its funding comes from Europe. You could create the same tables in Euros or pounds and they would show the same thing.

After a quick look, I can't find data by year for real wages in European countries. But I'd dare say you see the same trend towards lower growth rates and real middle class wages across Western Europe and Japan, as a result of globalization and technology, as you see in the USA.

Still the middle class has made strides forward. Here's an interview with Bruce Meyer, an economist who focuses on poverty, inequality and social safety net programs at the University of Chicago. No doubt you'll poo poo this, since the University of Chicago was once a hotbed of supply side economics (Hayek and Friedman, both mentioned in your Mobiot piece, taught there). Also, like the Guardian, the AEI reputedly is biased. But I read your Monbiot piece and hope you'll read this. While Meyer doesn't say this, his thoughts agree with my observations of middle class living conditions in the USA versus Europe and Japan. We have more cars, larger living spaces, more appliances, air conditioning, and things usually cost less (not necessarily right now) and are more available in the USA.

[URL]https://www.aei.org/economics/inequality-and-poverty-in-the-us-a-long-read-qa-with-bruce-meyer/[/URL]

A couple of quotes,

There are very tangible things that you can look at to see that people in the middle of the distribution are better off than they were 20, 30 years ago. For example, if you look at the share of people in the middle of the income distribution that have central air conditioning, or maybe only a couple of room air conditioners, or have a dishwasher, or a washer and a dryer in their house or apartment those numbers for the middle look like the numbers for the top 20% as of 20 or 30 years ago. So theres been quite dramatic improvements if you look at tangible things like what kinds of appliances have in the house. You can also look at the size of peoples houses or apartments square footage, number of rooms those things have gone up quite sharply for people in the middle of the distribution....

....Well, when you talk about the broader income distribution, particularly those at the bottom, its very important to pay attention to taxes, and in-kind transfers, and to the fact that our income data sources tend to undercount a lot of key transfers from the government. Much of what we have done over the past 20 or 30 years to help those at the bottom of the income distribution has been in the form of tax credits, like the Earned Income Tax Credit, or transfers that are in-kind like food stamps, which we now call SNAP, or housing benefits, or Medicaid. And those benefits are not counted in our official income or poverty statistics. Omitting those leads to a huge understatement of the resources available to those at the bottom of the distribution....

[QUOTE=JustTK;2754165]I don't agree with everything George Monbiot writes, but this is the best I have ever read from him. Neo-lieralism is: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-ideology-problem-george-monbiot

"freedom for the pike, not for the minnows. Freedom from trade unions and collective bargaining means the freedom to suppress wages. Freedom from regulation means the freedom to poison rivers, endanger workers, charge iniquitous rates of interest and design exotic financial instruments. Freedom from tax means freedom from the distribution of wealth that lifts people out of poverty. The greater the failure, the more extreme the ideology becomes. Governments use neoliberal crises as both excuse and opportunity to cut taxes, privatise remaining public services, rip holes in the social safety net, deregulate corporations and re-regulate citizens. The self-hating state now sinks its teeth into every organ of the public sector. ".

Hope you enjoy the read. I know you hold the Bible close to your heart, but we atheists hold the truth close close to ours. Neo-liberalism can never fix our problems, bcos it doesn't have our needs at heart.[/QUOTE]Your religion is anti-neoliberalism. I and most others who view ourselves as fans of free markets believe in rights for labor, including the right to unionize, and reasonable regulation of business by government.

Thanks. I did enjoy the read, in the same way I enjoy watching Rachel Maddow or Lawrence O'Donell. If you exclude their "reporting" on Trump, they're wrong in about 90% of what they say. But it's a window into how the other side thinks.

[QUOTE=EihTooms;2753861]For those who don't think forcing workers to save 37% of every paycheck until age 55, as is apparently done in Singapore, would be a fine plan to replace Social Security and Medicare (yeah, let's wait for the vote count on that one), here comes more help from MSM for Repubs poised to gut Social Security and Medicare to win the midterm elections.[/QUOTE]You and I have been thrifty and wise enough to save and invest. We could stop working and be fine. But many Americans spend all their money just as fast as it comes in. What I'm proposing is like a huge combination IRA and HSA, with the ability to take out money without penalty for a downpayment on a house or education. And restrictions so the money must be logically invested by reputable mangers, like the Australian super funds. You'd have to transition to this over time to avoid having it induce a recession. And yes, you're right, the majority of Americans, more so Republicans, wouldn't go for something like this.

[QUOTE=EihTooms;2753861]For those who don't think forcing workers to save 37% of every paycheck until age 55,[/QUOTE]And BTW, 20% is paid by the employer, 17% by the employee. Your big into minimum wage increases. Twenty percent would result in the employer forking over 13.8% more than the current 6. 2% contribution.

[QUOTE=Spidy;2754096]Medicare works just fine for many Americans. I think the ONLY problem with Medicare, is the right-wing Trojan horse that is [B]Medicare Advantage[/B], meant to eventually privatize Medicare.

[B]Medicare Advantage Is a For-Profit Scam. Time to End It.[/B]
[URL]https://www.commondreams.org/views/2021/09/08/medicare-advantage-profit-scam-time-end-it[/URL]

Medicare Advantage, pawns itself off as being better than Medicare, when in fact it is just a multi-trillion dollar scam. It deceives and uses deceptive practices to fools current users of Medicare (especially the elder) into there "Advantage" program, to relieve and Americans of their premiums, while denying medical care, by using fancy policy loopholes designed to minimize and rebuff Americans, of the necessary medical care needed.

[B]Medicare Advantage Money Grab[/B]
[URL]https://publicintegrity.org/topics/health/medicare-advantage-money-grab/[/URL]

Just get rid of Medicare Advantage, problem solved. Or at the very least forbid / copyright them from using the Medicare name.[/QUOTE]You were replying to me Spidy. I don't even know what Medicare Advantage is, so don't have an opinion. I do believe that our health system is really f*cked up, and both parties share part of the blame for that. So does that make me a Bothsider? No! That makes me a Bestsider!

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2754246]Your religion is anti-neoliberalism. I and most others who view ourselves as fans of free markets believe in rights for labor, including the right to unionize, and reasonable regulation of business by government.

Thanks. I did enjoy the read, in the same way I enjoy watching Rachel Maddow or Lawrence O'Donell. If you exclude their "reporting" on Trump, they're wrong in about 90% of what they say. But it's a window into how the other side thinks.[/QUOTE]I will have a read of what you posted in your other comment. Don't have time this moment to focus. I accept that you urself beleive in labour rights etc, but you cannot speak for others. And the issue is that 'free markets' naturally tend to oligopoly. They are like a radioactive atom on the element table. They immediately decay in to a different state. They cannot exist in nature. Why? Bcos they are based on competition. With competitions there is always a winner and a loser. With that comes wealth, with wealth comes power, with power comes influence, comes corruption of the market, comes dominance, comes anhilation of the competition. We all end up as lowers, apart from the oligarchs, who oend up with everything, but even that state is transient, as with their greed they eventually consume themselves.

I didn't mean the OECD is biased, I mean the stats are biased. Bcos they use USA as the benchmark. Its all in USD, its all based on US norms. So the 'baskets' they use are US consumer baskets. They fairly represent the USA, not the other countries. Also adjustments for things like education costs, health costs. These are made to the other countries. They are not made to the USA. So the high USA health cost is not reflected. Nor reflected is the quality of life. For a USA household to attain that salary, they need to work 2 or 3 jobs each person, work longer hours and have less holidays. Avge USAn works 20% more hours than a German, just to get by.

But as I keep saying, that is really irrelevant. What is relevena t is that we are seeing an erosion of the poor, of the middle classes, across all neo-lib states, and greater levels of inequality. This is the natural / predicted course of events in neo-liberalism. The concentrations of wealth / power first consume the weak, then they need to seek out new victims to exploit and consume. The middle class.

"middle class living conditions in the USA versus Europe and Japan. We have more cars, larger living spaces, more appliances, air conditioning, and things usually cost less (not necessarily right now) and are more available in the USA. ".

Correct, but irrelevant to my point. Also longer working hours. USA WAS the NEW WORLD. Europe was totally developed and on the verge of collapse. North America was the great godsend that allowed UK and rest of Europe to continue in its capitalist ways. Allowed them to continue on their destructive paths to produce and expand. For this reason, and bcos the USA only fought in half a world war, and was the only large economy not totally destroyed, it became world leader. It was the Golden Age for the USA, for the USA middle class. But since then, those luxuries and advanatges have been eroded away. And now the USA middlel class needs to work 20% more to stay afloat. From those heady days, the USA has fallen a long way. Surely, you can see trend?

[QUOTE=JustTK;2754156]Freddie Sayers coming good again. Super interviewer. Great guests.... COVID stuff.

[URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Fr0-TMdjQ0[/URL][/QUOTE]For old farts like many of us, it's not a hard decision. You get the vaccines and stay boosted. But if you're an eighteen year old male, it's not as easy.

Either way, thanks to American Big Pharma (Pfizer and Moderna) and the Trump Administration's Operation Warp Speed, we have great vaccines and the freedom to choose!

[QUOTE=EihTooms;2754240]In classic Repub Party fashion, deabeat Repubs shoulder none of the heavy lifting, assume none of the political risk, leave all of the work to the Dems, do nothing but slam and snipe at the Dems for their hard work and effective legislation and then swoop in afterwards and try to con their constituents and the American voter into giving them credit for it. LOL.

[B]Biden Calls Out Socialist Republicans Now Begging for Money From Program They Voted Down[/B]

[URL]https://news.yahoo.com/biden-calls-socialist-republicans-now-191450315.html[/URL]

It is beyond all debate and will now and forever be proven in the data and actual record of results that, in just the past 21 months, POTUS Joe Biden's Administration and his Dems in Congress have accomplished more to materially improve the lives of more Americans, especially Repubs in Red States, as well as to strengthen and spread democracy and Western democratic alliances around the world than all of the Repub Administrations and all of the Repub members of Congress of the past century or more combined.

By stark contrast, no administration, now the holy template for all future Repub administrations and slavishly aped by virtually every Repub in Congress and running for election, inflicted more damage to the health, well-being and the economy of America as well as the cause for democracy around the world than the immediate previous one that still refuses to simply apologize for his total disaster, admit defeat and go away.

Snap out of it.

Wake up.

Pay attention.

Vote accordingly.[/QUOTE]Biden et al are just recycling money to the states through an inefficient federal government, which often values its priorities over the priorities of the people and their communities. I've provided the example of the public transport system where I live. The federal government paid for the buses, which we accepted because they were "free. " And now you have buses running around town with no or one or two passengers. So should the mayor and city council, all but one Republicans, have rejected the buses because they're a waste of federal taxpayer money? Tough call. It's hard turning away free stuff.

I don't agree with your and PVMonger's belief, expressed here more than once, that Democrats should take money from all Americans and just spend it on blue districts and states.

And that's quite a claim about the Biden administration doing more to spread democracy around the world than all the Republican administrations and members of Congress in the past century or more. Biden hasn't done squat to spread Democracy. The Reagan administration played a big part in bringing democracy to Eastern Europe and part of the FSU.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2754292]Biden et al are just recycling money to the states through an inefficient federal government, which often values its priorities over the priorities of the people and their communities. I've provided the example of the public transport system where I live. The federal government paid for the buses, which we accepted because they were "free. " And now you have buses running around town with no or one or two passengers. So should the mayor and city council, all but one Republicans, have rejected the buses because they're a waste of federal taxpayer money? Tough call. It's hard turning away free stuff.

[b]I don't agree with your and PVMonger's belief, expressed here more than once, that Democrats should take money from all Americans and just spend it on blue districts and states.[/b]

And that's quite a claim about the Biden administration doing more to spread democracy around the world than all the Republican administrations and members of Congress in the past century or more. Biden hasn't done squat to spread Democracy. The Reagan administration played a big part in bringing democracy to Eastern Europe and part of the FSU.[/QUOTE]Although the point I highlighted would very likely produce some of the best economic results and investment gains of all time for America, I don't remember asserting such a thing.

Was it in the same post where I didn't assert that thing about Dem campaign donations?

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2754286]For old farts like many of us, it's not a hard decision. You get the vaccines and stay boosted. But if you're an eighteen year old male, it's not as easy.

Either way, thanks to American Big Pharma (Pfizer and Moderna) and the Trump Administration's Operation Warp Speed, we have great vaccines and the freedom to choose![/QUOTE]Thanks to [B]Obama's[/B] decisions ten years earlier, we had vaccines produced and ready to go at warp speed:

[B]Obama's science advisors outline plan for faster pandemic vaccine.
Aug. 19, 2010[/B]

[URL]https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2010/08/obamas-science-advisors-outline-plan-faster-pandemic-vaccine[/URL]

[B]Foster Highlights President Obamas Contribution to Rapid Vaccine Development in Hearing with Dr. Fauci[/B]

[URL]https://foster.house.gov/media/press-releases/foster-highlights-president-obama-s-contribution-to-rapid-vaccine-development[/URL]

However, thanks to Trump's decisions the world [B]needed[/B] vaccines produced and ready to go at warp speed:

[B]Timeline of Trumps Coronavirus Response[/B]

[URL]https://doggett.house.gov/media/blog-post/timeline-trumps-coronavirus-responses[/URL]

Also, thanks to Trump, most Americans and many millions of others around the world harbored the deadly and mistaken notion that it wasn't necessary for anyone to bother inventing a vaccine at either warp speed or at their leisure much less ever bother or risk taking one for practically the entire critical Trump's Pandemic year of 2020:

[B]'It's going to disappear':
A timeline of Trump's claims that Covid-19 will vanish[/B]

[URL]https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2020/10/politics/covid-disappearing-trump-comment-tracker/[/URL]

[B]Trump Baselessly Claims Coronavirus Will Go Away Without Vaccine[/B]

[URL]https://www.factcheck.org/2020/05/trump-baselessly-claims-coronavirus-will-go-away-without-vaccine/[/URL]

[QUOTE=Tiny 12;2754094]I finally figured out what neoliberalism is. I googled it in Wikipedia.

[URL]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism[/URL]

Neoliberalism, that is free market capitalism, has lifted hundreds of millions out of poverty. Thank goodness it predominated over socialism and communism![/QUOTE]

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Neoliberalism, is capitalism on steroids, gone awry. Neoliberalism, [b]is a right-wing/Repub economic/political construct[/b] (more like a rabbit hole, that unfortunately, the Dems fell into and are currently, partially digging themselves out). And as I like to say (and IMHO), while it was lifting "hundreds of millions out of poverty", it simultaneously [b]"placed billions into poverty". [/b]

It is designed to reduce the middle and working class democratic governments to mere hollow shells of power, to the point were the predominate balance of power is given over/transferred to the economic elites (also known as "the free markets"), to consolidate and entrench societal and economical power at the top, for the wealthy 1% (or is it the 0.1% ???).

[QUOTE=Spidy;2754325]Nothing could be further from the truth.

Neoliberalism, is capitalism on steroids, gone awry. Neoliberalism, [b]is a right-wing/Repub economic/political construct[/b] (more like a rabbit hole, that unfortunately, the Dems fell into and are currently, partially digging themselves out). And as I like to say (and IMHO), while it was lifting "hundreds of millions out of poverty", it simultaneously [b]"placed billions into poverty". [/b]

It is designed to reduce the middle and working class democratic governments to mere hollow shells of power, to the point were the predominate balance of power is given over/transferred to the economic elites (also known as "the free markets"), to consolidate and entrench societal and economical power at the top, for the wealthy 1% (or is it the 0.1% ???).[/QUOTE]Over a billion people in Eastern Europe, the FSU, China, Vietnam and Cambodia, who lived under both systems, would disagree. Look at the places where free market capitalism doesn't exist -- Cuba, North Korea, to a large degree Venezuela -- they're basket cases.

And I present a way to economically empower the Workingman, who would beneficially own more of American industry than he now does through pension plans, IRA's, 401-K's and direct investments if the Tiny Savings and Medical Plan were adopted. And EihTooms poo poo's it. Again, the Democrat politicians need to work on lifting people up instead of f*cking the top 1%. They can f*ck the 1% to the maximum extent possible. They still wouldn't have enough money for universal health care or a decent social security system, and in the long run that would only make the rest of the country poorer. You don't knee cap your most successful innovators, businessmen and investors and get off Scot free.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2754334]Look at the places where free market capitalism doesn't exist -- Cuba, North Korea, to a large degree Venezuela -- they're basket cases.[/QUOTE]You mean look at all the places that are blocked from participating in normal world trade by the USA, simply bcos they dare try a different economic system and refuse to suck the USA dick?

Of course they are likely to fail. Show me a socialist country that has not had to try to succeeed AS WELL as compete against the oppressive weiight of sanctions / coups / ostracism by the USA and other leading puppy-dog powers.

Listen to Bill Burr spoke out candidly:

[URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ScLu3BX1AY[/URL]

[QUOTE=Tiny 12;2754283]You were replying to me Spidy. I don't even know what Medicare Advantage is, so don't have an opinion. I do believe that our health system is really f*cked up, and both parties share part of the blame for that. So does that make me a Bothsider? No! That makes me a Bestsider![/QUOTE] Medicare Advantage is a major part of the problem.

But, what's f*cked up is the QAnon/Repubs, wanting to keep the status quo, while Dems are at least trying to remedy past healthcare sins and provide a more equitable healthcare, outta the clutches of the insurance companies and big data firms. It helps to recognize, at the very least, which side is trying to do right by the Americans voted them into office, that want to see a better healthcare system.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2754150]Yep, enacting Medicare Advantage was the most egregious and wasteful money scam of the 20th century. They relentlessly spam and confuse seniors getting them to sign up for inferior medical plans by offering a few bucks in return. [b]What they do is criminal, [/b]and it's not a figure of speech.[/QUOTE] Spot On!

[QUOTE=JustTK;2754284]"middle class living conditions in the USA versus Europe and Japan. We have more cars, larger living spaces, more appliances, air conditioning, and things usually cost less (not necessarily right now) and are more available in the USA. ".

Correct, but irrelevant to my point. Also longer working hours. USA WAS the NEW WORLD. Europe was totally developed and on the verge of collapse. North America was the great godsend that allowed UK and rest of Europe to continue in its capitalist ways. Allowed them to continue on their destructive paths to produce and expand. For this reason, and bcos the USA only fought in half a world war, and was the only large economy not totally destroyed, it became world leader. It was the Golden Age for the USA, for the USA middle class. But since then, those luxuries and advanatges have been eroded away. And now the USA middlel class needs to work 20% more to stay afloat. From those heady days, the USA has fallen a long way. Surely, you can see trend?[/QUOTE]You've got a point about hours worked. That would be part of the reason why per capita disposable income in the USA is so much higher. It sounds like Europe is a great place for slackers. Asians would probably say the same thing about the USA.

I don't see any series that would enable me to compare real median income growth across European countries and the USA. The best I can do is per capita GDP. I'm going back to 1980 because that's when the IMF data series start, and going through 2019 to avoid funky effects of COVID. Here's annual growth over the period for several countries.

USA 1.68%/year

Germany 1.45%/year

France 1.13%/year

Please note that, as measured by government revenues and government expenditures as a % of GDP, the USA has smallest government, France has the largest, and Germany is in between.

The differences may seem small, but over the 40 year period, USA Per capita GDP grew by 95%, compared to 66% for France. That's substantial.

Also, growth should be higher for a country starting from a lower base. You have noted that the USA emerged from the second world war in better shape than Europe. That's correct. I'll note growth should be higher for a country starting from a lower base. But that hasn't been the case. Rather the country with the highest growth is the one with smallest government. And that's what you'd expect. You leave more money with the people and the private sector, the engine of growth, and the economy grows faster.

BTW, thanks, you have modified my world economic view, A LITTLE, by reminding me of the differences in working hours between countries. And also your link impressed on me how comparatively mild the symptoms of myocarditis associated with COVID vaccines are. I learned something from you today.