German FKK Clubs - Lounge and chat area

[QUOTE=TheCane;2192663]Exactly. A common and oft used and observed tactic. Telling you what you said and / or think when you said no such thing, nor believe in something who somebody else alleges that you do.[/QUOTE]Kinda like when the other poster uses the pejorative phrase "self declared alpha male" just because one poster used the generic term beta male to describe a a submissive male. It's a civil discussion where personal attacks need not be made.

I think McAdonis was dead on when he described that some of the discussions here as "geeks arguing on this forum about semantics."

[QUOTE=Takedown;2192732]I think it would be foolish to throw the alpha, beta, etc dynamics out the window. Your assessment is correct in the context of society at large and long term relationships. However, there is still the matter of carnal attraction that is preprogrammed in our biology. Thousands of years of progress in science, technology, and culture pales in comparison to the millions of years of evolution that has led to our current physical form.

Simply put, our hardware has not kept up with our software. Women are still hardwired to be drawn to dominant, often physically dominant, men.[/QUOTE]Unfortunately, a major section of my prior entry has been edited without indication by the moderators. This makes my last entry sound a bit incomplete To them, I apologize for making statements that are in violation to the forum rules. I hope this does not extend my time as a regular member, if it does I will remove my account.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2192442]All logical and well but that's the problem, you're putting yourself in the girl's shoes and thinking like you, with logic. In the moment and in the early rooms, that's not always the case. The girl can lose herself if the game of attraction is played well. Not all girls, but definitely many of them in my experience. Your points will prevail in the end when extending the interaction to future rooms and outside the club interactions because you give logic and facts a chance to settle in and reminding the girl that you are a paying customer.[/QUOTE]I agree that logic and facts take a while to settle in. However, logic is not the only way that a WG can come to the conclusion: pro monger = loser. Society stereotypes mongers as "lonely losers who can't find sex any other way". So this prejudice was probably already present before in the WG's mind before she ever entered the profession.

For instance, often dispensed advice to newbies here is "never go with WGs that aggressively approaches you the moment you walk into the club". Their logic behind this statement is: "That WG probably has zero business. All the regulars already know she is a rip-off artist. That is why she desperately hunts tourists". So newbie walks into Sharks. Angelica the Egyptian approaches. It won't take the newbie more than a moment to recall this prejudice.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2192448]As a quant and numbers based guy with very linear thinking and who never took a psych class in life, I usually ignore all those theories.[/QUOTE]A deep understanding of the human brain, and being able to consistently predict how others might think or feel about something is essential for navigating life. For some professions, it is an absolute necessity. Plastic surgeons must understand what is considered "aesthetic". Artists need to understand what would be considered "artistic". Tech luminaries like Jobs and Sean Parker need to possess the vision to predict what the next big gadget or service will resonate with the masses. For all of the above disciplines, psychologists have proposed theories, and conducted experiments to test their theories. This article from the New Yorker discusses how academics (Plato, Aristotle, Freud) have tried to solve the following riddle: "what makes something funny". The precise formula they are looking for will probably never be found. The human brain is just too complex.

That said, I believe a successful stand-up comedian like Chris Rock have a strong grasp on what most people would find funny. But even he falls flat on some of his jokes occasionally. Chris Rock instinctively uses the "Incongruity Theory" to craft some of his jokes, even though he may have never actually read about this theory. While Chris Rock isn't as book smart as us, he possesses intelligence nevertheless. I don't doubt for a second that he hasn't dilgently studied the routines of those that came before him (Pryor, Carlin, Murphy, etc).

Why is this psycho-babble relevant to us mongers? (1) WGs run psychology game on us to manipulate more money out of us than we want to spend, (2) having a better pulse on how others think, feel, and operate helps us in sales, negotiation, job interviews, proposals, and personal relationships. Even though I am a "logic" guy, I understand getting paid more is often not about what you know, but who you know, and who likes you. (3) Even though some mongers outwardly are happy, they might be depressed and lonely. Many of us are males in the 45-55 age demographic, highest rate of suicide, I believe. Having a better understanding mental health might help us watch out for another. In short: saving money, making more money, and staying alive.

Sean Parker on how he knew FB could exploit psychology to make users addicted: [URL]https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/09/facebooks-sean-parker-on-social-media.html[/URL].

Trying to understand what makes something funny: [URL]https://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/a-quest-to-understand-what-makes-things-funny[/URL].

[QUOTE=Chongmal;2192622]I tried hard to change the topic to something other than Alpha, Beta, Omega, Gamma and Sigma specimens of humans. Why, civilization, education and advancement in technology have honestly changed the paradigm of these classifications within humans. Yes, there are physically dominant individuals but a geek with a computer, laser, or audio based weapon can bring these physically dominant specimens to there knees or worse. So personalities aside all this Alpha, Beta blah blah can be tossed out the window.[/QUOTE]I believe you and Takedown are conflating two different things. In the early 2000's, the manosphere co-opted the scientific terms "alpha male" and "beta male". This is similar to how the alt-right has co-opted the term "cuck". The meanings have been altered slightly. For people in the PUA sub-community, alpha males do not always need to be physically dominant.

Here is an entertaining primer. A famous PUA, Neil Strauss, is being interviewed by Jimmy Kimmel with Jessica Alba listening in: [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC0hrqbhx5M[/URL].

Neil Strauss captures the community quite well, describing it as a "Revenge of the Nerds" type of community. In other words, a bunch of sexual frustrated young men, googling "how to get women" then subsequently finding one another.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2192836]I agree that logic and facts take a while to settle in. However, logic is not the only way that a WG can come to the conclusion: pro monger = loser. Society stereotypes mongers as "lonely losers who can't find sex any other way". So this prejudice was probably already present before in the WG's mind before she ever entered the profession.[/QUOTE]Not sure how this scenario escapes the logic versus primal attraction argument. I think prior knowledge falls under the relm of facts and logic which can still be trumped by attraction. It's cognitive dissonance due to emotion.

Thee point is that primal attraction (temporarily) overrides facts, logic, or knowledge.

On the flip, why else would a monger who knows that WGs are gold diggers shower a girl with gifts to win affection? Cognitive dissonance to the fact that she's a working girl.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2192848]I believe you and Takedown are conflating two different things. In the early 2000's, the manosphere co-opted the scientific terms "alpha male" and "beta male". This is similar to how the alt-right has co-opted the term "cuck". The meanings have been altered slightly. For people in the PUA sub-community, alpha males do not always need to be physically dominant.[/QUOTE]You can be alpha without being physically dominant although it helps. Physically dominant guys do tend to favor the alpha persona, at least it makes it easier to do so.

But speaking of Neil Strauss, in "The Game: Secret Society of PUA", his first commandment and a "must do" is to work out. So even the PUA community understands that even if you're not a 6'3" brick house, you must still meet some physical qualifiers or metrics to pass as an alpha.

[QUOTE=SamsonMonger;2192632]Contribution to humanity, society, friends, or family? Or simply passing on of genetic material?[/QUOTE]I pay my tax, pretty big amount actually, family sure, but that extend to my parent only. Society, well I have been doing that all my life and what I meant is that I stopped courting girls as I prefer pro girls where there is no need to play game and suck up, but just choose and pay and you can change when you want as beautiful and young you want with no problem.

Friends, I have, but I cannot openly talk about my mongering hobby LOL, so for this I got good intelligent online friends, who are much more freedom humans than or out of most.

As for genetic material, hmmm I do understand a bit, but man, kid is too much of hassle and too expensive that I prefer to invest that money to FKK or escort, but maybe if my net worth cash amount exceed over 10 million usd, then it maybe worth a stretch. But to be honest, I prefer cute dogs over most kids.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2192859]Not sure how this scenario escapes the logic versus primal attraction argument. I think prior knowledge falls under the relm of facts and logic which can still be trumped by attraction. It's cognitive dissonance due to emotion.

Thee point is that primal attraction (temporarily) overrides facts, logic, or knowledge.

On the flip, why else would a monger who knows that WGs are gold diggers shower a girl with gifts to win affection? Cognitive dissonance to the fact that she's a working girl.[/QUOTE]WGs are at the peak of the food chain. Their beauty allows them to pick from 95 percent of the male population.

The mongers that shower girls with gifts to win affection, I assume they understand they are not at the top of the food chain. They are paying for a fantasy that they do not want to end. They see what they want to see. You've written before that you work with dying patients. The family members and maybe the patient themselves, I am sure there is an unwillingness to accept reality. They choose to see what they want to see.

Note: I am not talking about mongers that give a one-time gift as a "tip".

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2192900]WGs are at the peak of the food chain. Their beauty allows them to pick from 95 percent of the male population.

The mongers that shower girls with gifts to win affection, I assume they understand they are not at the top of the food chain. They are paying for a fantasy that they do not want to end. They see what they want to see. You've written before that you work with dying patients. The family members and maybe the patient themselves, I am sure there is an unwillingness to accept reality. They choose to see what they want to see.

Note: I am not talking about mongers that give a one-time gift as a "tip".[/QUOTE]Well, not so sure I can agree that the girls are [B]that[/B] beautiful. Definitely not the bottom 75% of a club anyway, LOL.

All the same, cognitive dissonance is the reason the guys don't accept the reality. WGs can also fall victim to this cognitive dissonance if the monger can disarm her. I think our difference is that you are saying that you don't believe some mongers can do this (disarm her) while I believe some can. I feel that I have done this at times and I remember you telling me a story of how you have also. At Paradise was it? A WG doesn't give free "extras" to a first or second time 50-100 euro monger because of charity. In some way, not because you were a big spender or a frequent flyer, she [B]wanted[/B] to give that to you right?

McA normally I respect what you write and the thought and intelligence you articulate in your writings. So, if I have time, I will watch the video links you provided. Thanks.

However, I am confused. Is nt Tyler Durden the character played by Brad Pitt in Fight Club, a movie I was not particularly fond of but know that it somehow became a cult hit. If so, are there books, other videos, theories, and philosophy attributed to that character? Interesting.

I will say, yes, in hiring decisions and during normal business activities, some awareness of cultural backgrounds is useful. And yes, a hiring manager is required to assess the potential fit and ability to succeed of a new applicant. But there is a thin line between making that narrow assessment within the parameters of a business, and liberally applying one's own biases under the guise of using gut instinct. I don't know where you practice this, but here in the US, there are at least legally all kinds of axis (sex, gender, age, race, religion, national origin, yadda yadda) where such discrimination or gut instinct or what have you, would be illegal unless it is a very narrow business reason.

In any case, as far as I know, there is zero requirement that one should know about this PUA or whatever it is, to make this assessment during hiring process. I have never heard of this PUA acronym until reading your posts. May be your comment is not specific to PUA, but the kinds of broad based psych theories you guys are throwing around....If those are used as a basis for discriminating against specific individuals, I think it would be deeply troublesome from a legal pov in the US (my opinion. I am not a lawyer).

Also, I don't have any clue about all this "understanding women". I know this is a mongering forum where some extremist fringe guys have proposed that women should not even have voting rights, and feminist is a dirty word worse than Nazi. But what the heck is "understanding women"? Women are half the population. Does anyone write here about "understanding men"? Even in a personal setting, in my own extended family and relatives, there are logical men, logical women, illogical and emotional men and women, crazy men and women and so on. All of them are best understood and analyzed as individuals and not under one broad based category of gender.

I know that phrase "understanding women" is not yours, but it is a deeply archaic phrase. Perhaps if it is said by Seinfeld or Erasmus or Shakespeare it is fine, but otherwise in today’s professional setting if one said such a thing, he would lose all credibility.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2192476]Jnpr, I work in a male-dominated "linear thinking" field. But I also manage teams from disparate cultures. To be successful managing people, I need to be able to judge character. It's useful to see patterns and try to predict future behaviors. Ultimately, this requires me to use my "gut instinct" and to recall on past experiences managing others. If I am screening a candidate and trying to assess if their personality and goals are compatible for my team, I don't have the luxury of waiting for "evidence" to manifest itself. If I misjudge the candidate's character or miss "red flags" in their history, and they turn out to be a drama queen who needs to be let go, money is lost, progress is stalled, and opportunities are missed.

Takedown mentioned that the pick-up artist (PUA) literature uses the same principles he learned in Psycho-pathology. That isn't a surprise. Sales psychology same shit. The underlying idea is to develop a sixth sense during a social interaction. I do believe the principles and psychology behind PUA are sound. But understanding principles, doesn't make one skilled at something. For the most part I know the principles behind public speaking, but I can't say I am good speaker. I don't have a natural aptitude for it, nor do I have thousands and thousands of repetitions under my belt. I'the say the same for majority of PUA community, ninety percent of which are geeks on the internet like us who argue with one another over semantics.

Anyway, I went down a rabbit hole and watched another video by that Tyler Durden guy. Jnpr30, you probably won't watch, but I'd encourage you too. He tries to study women, understand women, and test his understanding by analyzing hidden camera footage of himself speaking with a woman. It probably has very little applicability to women in FKK, but it is entertaining nevertheless. He's a captivating, dynamic speaker with Zach Galifianakis-style humor. In another life, he could have probably done improv or stand-up. Interested to hear Takedown's take as well. Maybe you guys think it is scripted and staged. Probably could skip the first 5 minutes or so.

[URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzmD8mZZKfc[/URL][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2192900]WGs are at the peak of the food chain. Their beauty allows them to pick from 95 percent of the male population.

The mongers that shower girls with gifts to win affection, I assume they understand they are not at the top of the food chain. They are paying for a fantasy that they do not want to end. They see what they want to see. You've written before that you work with dying patients. The family members and maybe the patient themselves, I am sure there is an unwillingness to accept reality. They choose to see what they want to see.

Note: I am not talking about mongers that give a one-time gift as a "tip".[/QUOTE]There is a big flaw in your logic. The girls would not be hunting for guys and be willing to go with 95% of them (not the top 5%) if they were that good. The top 5% are able to land the big fish in a marriage. The guy with money is still at the top. It does not have to be money. Power works as well. The guys throwing money are just fools that thinks it makes them better than the competition. It does buy a little like priority and a little more affection. For some people, that is worth it.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2192775]Kinda like when the other poster uses the pejorative phrase "self declared alpha male" just because one poster used the generic term beta male to describe a a submissive male. It's a civil discussion where personal attacks need not be made.

I think McAdonis was dead on when he described that some of the discussions here as "geeks arguing on this forum about semantics."[/QUOTE]Since you are complaining about the needless personal attacks here TD, enquiring minds want to know if your use of word "geeks" is meant to be complimentary or a needed personal attack, and if that term geek refers to the self declared alpha males or whoever are the beta males in the opinion of the self declared alpha male.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2192923]In any case, as far as I know, there is zero requirement that one should know about this PUA or whatever it is, to make this assessment during hiring process. I have never heard of this PUA acronym until reading your posts. May be your comment is not specific to PUA, but the kinds of broad based psych theories you guys are throwing around....If those are used as a basis for discriminating against specific individuals, I think it would be deeply troublesome from a legal pov in the US (my opinion. I am not a lawyer).[/QUOTE]Yes "broad based psych theories". My point is that we instinctively use psychology in our everyday life, even if we do not know it. Some more than others. You yourself have used the term "confirmation bias", which in layman's terms could be defined as "seeing what you want to see". But I believe psychologists in the 1960's came up with a formal description.

With regards to discrimination in hiring. Hiring managers who are racist or sexist tend to not openly admit it. They would simply dig for other reasons to explain why the candidate is unqualified. When I wrote my post about assessing a job candidate and missing a "red flag", I actually had a specific individual in mind. Nine months ago, we were interviewing a job candidate. My boss (who is not a "numbers" guy) was also sitting in. He tends to establish rapport with personal questions that you might ask when casually striking up a conversation at the pub with a stranger. After the interview was over, we compared notes. My senior manager keyed in on two sentences that were uttered in a 5 second portion of the interview. He determined that the candidate would be a drama queen. For some reason, the candidate had spoken about his relationship to his adopted parents. I thought they were innocuous statements, but maybe my boss saw something in the candidate's body language. Long story short: I ignored my boss' recommendation. The candidate has indeed been a drama queen. And now I have to clean up this mess.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2192923]However, I am confused. Is nt Tyler Durden the character played by Brad Pitt in Fight Club, a movie I was not particularly fond of but know that it somehow became a cult hit. If so, are there books, other videos, theories, and philosophy attributed to that character? Interesting.[/QUOTE]These PUA instructors brand themselves as life coaches. Tyler Durden is his stage name. All the PUA instructors use stage names. When Owen Cook charms women using his PUA techniques, he introduces himself by his real name "Owen Cook". He does not want these women Googling him and finding out that he is a PUA.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2192928]Since you are complaining about the needless personal attacks here TD, enquiring minds want to know if your use of word "geeks" is meant to be complimentary or a needed personal attack, and if that term geek refers to the self declared alpha males or whoever are the beta males in the opinion of the self declared alpha male.[/QUOTE]I will own responsibility for the use of the word Geek here. Takedown simply responded reusing my chosen term. I am a Geek, so no harm in my use of the word.

As for the rest of the discussion, if I was still in my prime and could make attractive women in there early 20's swoon and offer me sex three times per day just because I'm such an amazing man, I sure as hell wouldn't be in the Sauna Clubs paying for sex. I would just come to hang out, drinks lots, eat the amazing food and enjoy the wellness facilities.