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[QUOTE=Nr71;2196911]Thank you for all the posts regarding female guests.
I should have been a little more specific in my first post. My wife would love to watch me with a WG in an FKK, and I would love to show her the places and the "chemistry" in the clubs. She has watched me with WG's earlier, but not in an "exclusive" club as an FKK. Our intention is to let me be a regular customer, and let the wife watch. From your answers it looks like it would be possible in some clubs. Thank you again![/QUOTE]Definitely. But not in all clubs.
The only thing I would add to the helpful comments by others is that you will of course need to make sure your wife is happy at all points. I guess you know this already.
If your wife and the girl can establish some connection then that can up the quality of the experience. They could end up running the session and having a riot.
I occasionally had disasters when doing what you do. I got so keen on a particular girls I didn't check how my wife felt, so there were a couple of less than successful times.
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NR71.
Definitely. But not in all clubs.
The only thing I would add to the helpful comments by others is that you will of course need to make sure your wife is happy at all points. I guess you know this already.
If your wife and the girl can establish some connection then that can up the quality of the experience. They could end up running the session and having a riot.
I occasionally had disasters when doing what you do. I got so keen on particular girls I didn't check how my wife felt, so there were a couple of less than successful times.
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Optimist, thank you for your good advices. If you would I would love to hear why you brought your wife, and her impression of the clubs. What clubs did you go to? Will you bring her again? How did the WG's react? And more. .
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[QUOTE=Optimist;2197100]...
I occasionally had disasters when doing what you do. I got so keen on particular girls I didn't check how my wife felt, so there were a couple of less than successful times.[/QUOTE]People who were ever into swinging, swapping etc are well-aware of this. When you involve a wife / girlfriend with a third party female, the wife / girlfriend is likely to lose her cool in the following cases:
- the third party female is younger / sexier / better-looking.
- you are obviously too keen on the third party female.
- the third party female is of the raunchy aggressively sexual kind.
You can experience that yourself by having a trio with another man (eg a "cuckold" experience). If the other chap turns out too handsome, too much of a hypersexual badboy, you are likely to experience a testosterone turning of the worm inside your male brain.
Here added is the afterthought that the working girl is getting some of your money.
On the whole I've found sexual fantasies involving 3 people to be exponentially more difficult to put into practice than fantasies involving just me and another adult.
Note that the bullet-points above are exactly what we look for when we session a girl one-to-one.
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[QUOTE=Pistons;2196888]Are you sure they were not just pole dancers, or some women working there? Or someone looking into working at the club? Because if memory serves me right, I believe I overheard the receptionist once say civilian women were not allowed in.[/QUOTE]Yes, they were as in two girls were swimming down stair pool by sauna and guys eyes were fixed on their nude body and many including myself went up to them asking for session and they said they do not work and they are also the guests, these two girls were real beauty. It seems they were there to check the place out as they were giggling, pointing at places etc.
This is only time I saw girls at artemis or any other FKK I have been to since 2009 or 2010 actually.
Most crazy thing I saw at FKK was pregnant woman as a working girl. I mean. I got my limit.
Most regrettable I did not see at FKK that I missed were beautiful twins, oh I want to go threesome with such girls. Sisters I have seen but one of them is not hot or both were not hot, or it is merely a lie that these girls are actually sisters LOL.
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[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2196970]Making the girls pay an entry fee implies they are not employees of the club but are renting the club facilities to ply their trade, in effect making them independent self employed contractors -- which in turn gives the club some amount of immunity from potential legal violations by the girls. This was, in a nutshell, the argument / explanation provided here in the past. I am not a legal expert, so I will leave it to the lawyers here.
[/QUOTE]Barak Allah-bama, Jnpr.
So, the ostensible aim of the girls' entry fee is to stop an employer-employee relationship and the kind of bondage that implies. However, the effect is the opposite: it increases the bondage between the girl and the club. The money increases the feeling of commitment the girl has, and she may get into a sort of debt bondage. Also if she is paying that fee, she is paying for the whole day, so she cannot do two or three clubs in one day.
High entry barriers stifle competition. At most, the girl should be paying 10 E to cover the food (and food is not an intrinsic part of an FKK anyway -- it can be paid for or ordered separately). A free setup like this would be much friendlier to the casual Hobbyhuren that I love, increasing the "applicant pool" tenfold. If a club started to become dominated by a gang, the good providers would be able to switch much more easily, and customers would quickly follow -- meaning that clubs that allowed gangs to fester would die out more quickly.
Competition and free movement are key to quality.
I am not saying that a club has to be a free-for-all where any woman can get in and behave as she likes. Each FKK should be free to determine its own policies, but the FKKs that will do better in a free market are the FKKs that impose quality control. This does not imply bondage. If a fashionable nightclub has no problem turning away guys who are not young or sexy enough, then why should an FKK feel guilty about turning away the grannies who sometimes show up in their underwear and scare the patrons? If a nightclub does not mind turfing out a customer who has gotten drunk and violent, or a mall can revoke the license of a shop with many complaints, then why shouldn't an FKK ban a girl who is operating a con game on customers and bringing the premises into disrepute? That kind of control does not imply an employer-employee relationship.
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Very well said Allabama! I agree with you 100%.
And the fact that not everyone thinks like you do in your post, poses some questions. Some of which some of us with more insight into rumors at the clubs know a bit more of. And the problem like you say: barriers of entry for the girls.
I don't know a good solution here on what we can do about it. But thw clubs: All of them, might want to rethink their agendas if they want to survive another 10 years.
And what you direct your post at is the main issue I have with FKK's. And it could be their downfall as they all show a terrible lack of knowledge on crisis management.
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And like you say, girls should not pay for anything other than food. But still we hear of crazy rules at Globe and Oase and a bit less crazy rules at Aca and a few more no-approach policy clubs. These things make sense if you have the girls only paying for the food. But it makes zero sense if they pay normal entry fees. I know the feminist mafia would be totally all over this. No need to say more. So the idea is to consider game theory.
If it means that other jobs must be cut at the clubs, then so be it, but I think entry levels from guys will increase if the clubs lower this entry level for the girls also.
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Poly,
You make good arguments. Keep in mind, I was a messenger merely regurgitating the arguments which were presented by others.
You did not address the legal aspect of this. I am not a lawyer and have zero knowledge of German law. If a club feels its legal liability is much less with the current set up, they will use it. If you KNOW otherwise, please say so.
As for the commercial aspect again, we are not privy to the details of their finances. What we do know is that every day, they are getting entry fee from nearly a hundred girls which is not insubstantial. You say, if they forego that amount they will make it up with increased men's traffic. May be they will, may be they won't. But they WILL lose that pool of money from girls' entry fee and it is understandable why clubs could remain conservative and unwilling to lose that amount.
Bondage is a dirty word. There are real girls out there suffering real bondage. Let us not throw these adjectives around lightly.
I can see both sides of this argument. A girl who paid entry fee has an incentive to work hard and give good service to recoup her investment. A girl who pays nothing has less incentive to do the same.
And the variable cost to the club is not simply just the food, but also the upkeep and maintenance, laundry, utility bills, even the interest and tax payments to some extent, more employees to support the increased traffic. There are also physical limitations. People already complain GT is ridiculously crowded and no place to sit etc. Weekend nights have long room waits in many places. Is the club able to handle ten times the traffic that you suggest will be generated if they abolish the entry fee for girls? How?
I also don't think there is any evidence that there are several thousands of attractive girls who are at present willing to sell their bodies but are holding back due to the entry fee. What I do see is that the attractive girls with good service are able to easily covering their entry and still making good money. The so so girls just cover their fee and make some money. If they can't cover the fee consistently, they up their game and give better services or quit the playing field. The entry fee acts like a sorting system and separating the good providers from not so good ones.
Standing at the street corner is free. I don't know if street h00 kers are quite legal in Germany. But that doesn't make it better competition or a good outcome. We go to FKK as opposed to finding street walkers or even the RLD with some expectations. There is no guarantee that those expectations will be undisturbed if they open the club doors to every girl that shows up. If the clubs are filled to the brim with a bunch of free loader types that look to scam the guys, the male traffic instead of growing multi fold, might very well decline.
[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2197124]Barak Allah-bama, Jnpr.
So, the ostensible aim of the girls' entry fee is to stop an employer-employee relationship and the kind of bondage that implies. However, the effect is the opposite: it increases the bondage between the girl and the club. The money increases the feeling of commitment the girl has, and she may get into a sort of debt bondage. Also if she is paying that fee, she is paying for the whole day, so she cannot do two or three clubs in one day.
High entry barriers stifle competition. At most, the girl should be paying 10 E to cover the food (and food is not an intrinsic part of an FKK anyway -- it can be paid for or ordered separately). A free setup like this would be much friendlier to the casual Hobbyhuren that I love, increasing the "applicant pool" tenfold. If a club started to become dominated by a gang, the good providers would be able to switch much more easily, and customers would quickly follow -- meaning that clubs that allowed gangs to fester would die out more quickly.
Competition and free movement are key to quality.
I am not saying that a club has to be a free-for-all where any woman can get in and behave as she likes. Each FKK should be free to determine its own policies, but the FKKs that will do better in a free market are the FKKs that impose quality control. This does not imply bondage. If a fashionable nightclub has no problem turning away guys who are not young or sexy enough, then why should an FKK feel guilty about turning away the grannies who sometimes show up in their underwear and scare the patrons? If a nightclub does not mind turfing out a customer who has gotten drunk and violent, or a mall can revoke the license of a shop with many complaints, then why shouldn't an FKK ban a girl who is operating a con game on customers and bringing the premises into disrepute? That kind of control does not imply an employer-employee relationship.[/QUOTE]
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[QUOTE=Pistons;2197213]And like you say, girls should not pay for anything other than food. But still we hear of crazy rules at Globe and Oase and a bit less crazy rules at Aca and a few more no-approach policy clubs. These things make sense if you have the girls only paying for the food. But it makes zero sense if they pay normal entry fees. I know the feminist mafia would be totally all over this. No need to say more. So the idea is to consider game theory.
If it means that other jobs must be cut at the clubs, then so be it, but I think entry levels from guys will increase if the clubs lower this entry level for the girls also.[/QUOTE]Girls pay more to enter in some clubs buddy, like at Artemis, if I remember right girls pay 120 or 140 euro entry fee, but they sleep in dorms up stairs.
Sometimes, when ugly girls approach me in FKK, I politely tell her how long and how much you are willing to spend on me in room? As saying no thank you LOL.
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[QUOTE=Pistons;2197213]And like you say, girls should not pay for anything other than food. But still we hear of crazy rules at Globe and Oase and a bit less crazy rules at Aca and a few more no-approach policy clubs. These things make sense if you have the girls only paying for the food. But it makes zero sense if they pay normal entry fees. I know the feminist mafia would be totally all over this. No need to say more. So the idea is to consider game theory.
If it means that other jobs must be cut at the clubs, then so be it, but I think entry levels from guys will increase if the clubs lower this entry level for the girls also.[/QUOTE]The reason clubs charge entry is to weed out the undesirables. For example, men who ogle and feel up a woman with no intention of going to a room. The same happens on the girls side. There will be freeloaders. Girls with poor service or rippoffs. When a girl pays entry, they have something to loose. That is why girls who are short time or move around a lot tend to have bad service. There is no incentive for repeat business. Plus, the good looking ones know they will get a share of people who will try them.
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The reason why clubs charge entry to girls and guys is to make money. It's as simple as that. They are not non profit organizations. It's redlight environment. Profit is priority. Nothing else.
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[QUOTE=Akibono;2197278]The reason clubs charge entry is to weed out the undesirables. For example, men who ogle and feel up a woman with no intention of going to a room. The same happens on the girls side. There will be freeloaders. Girls with poor service or rippoffs. When a girl pays entry, they have something to loose. That is why girls who are short time or move around a lot tend to have bad service. There is no incentive for repeat business. Plus, the good looking ones know they will get a share of people who will try them.[/QUOTE]If you truly read poly's post, you should see the easy fix to this: an evolution in 'dress code requirements'.
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[QUOTE=Akibono;2197278]The reason clubs charge entry is to weed out the undesirables. For example, men who ogle and feel up a woman with no intention of going to a room. The same happens on the girls side. There will be freeloaders. Girls with poor service or rippoffs. When a girl pays entry, they have something to loose. That is why girls who are short time or move around a lot tend to have bad service. There is no incentive for repeat business. Plus, the good looking ones know they will get a share of people who will try them.[/QUOTE]I think the answer given before was spot on up until the speculation that the only impact to the club from the women conducting business is about €10 per day per woman. In addition to food other costs are present: cleaning rooms, bed laundry, towel laundry, electricity, water for washing and toilets, security, etc. If the women don't have to pay entry, these costs would be passed on to the male clients. I also agree that the club has the right to deny entry to both male and females due to their behavior inside the club.
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[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2197028]I simply don't think those sessions were wasted money in any sense. As they say, the journey is the main reward, not reaching the destination. I fully expect not to finish, and still want to enjoy the sex with these nubile wenches.[/QUOTE]Common sentiment I hear. A lot of fly-in mongers, Americans especially, have told me they have difficulty cumming in the room. Over half don't regularly cum in the room. But due to my personal history of having difficulty, my natural follow-up question is "how often can you climax to online porn at home?" Most of them will say their output at home is at least 3 times what they can manage in the club. I don't keep a spreadsheet or anything but here are some observations:
Observation #1: EVERY single one of them has expressed extreme difficulty with CIM. Many even stating that they have never in their life climaxed inside a girl's mouth, unless they did the work themselves and sprayed it in there.
Observation #2: 90-100 percent of the time they can cum in only their go-to position. Many have said they have never in their life cum when a girl is riding them.
Both of the above statements were once true for me. At age 16, my absolute peak in libido, I could never accomplish either of the above. These were milestones that I achieved much later.
[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2197028]That said, a couple of things: my own productivity in the clubs has declined rather precipitously. A couple of years ago, I was managing the 8 or 9 crescendos you mentioned in a 4 to 5 day visit. So, this is a sad turn of events.[/QUOTE]Are you sure that your reduction in productivity is due to age, health and or reduced libido? My understanding is you have only been FKKing about five years. Perhaps your libido has only dropped ten percent. But the "novelty factor" is what is missing now. Some fly-in guys get addicted immediately. Maybe ten trips in a 20 month period. When compared against their first two trips, their production has decreased precipitiously as well, even though they have not aged much. When I was 16, I could masturbate six times a day and climax each time. I had GFs and the first ten times we had sex, I climaxed with relative ease (15-20 minutes). Then the novelty factor went away, and I started having difficulty (60 minutes no climax). But I was still able to masturbate six times a day at home by myself and climax each time.
