German FKK Clubs - Lounge and chat area

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2197226]
You did not address the legal aspect of this. I am not a lawyer and have zero knowledge of German law. If a club feels its legal liability is much less with the current set up, they will use it. If you KNOW otherwise, please say so.
[/QUOTE]Hamdulillah Jnpr. The FKK concept is bigger than Germany. We thank Germany for inventing it, but the torch has moved on. Since 2017, when talking about what is best for FKKs, "It is not allowed in Germany," is no longer an interesting argument. Nothing is allowed in Germany. Let's not get distracted agonizing over the ins and outs of a maze of twisty legislation that is designed to screw up the FKK system and set the participants against each other.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2197211]Very well said Allabama! I agree with you 100%.

And the fact that not everyone thinks like you do in your post, poses some questions. Some of which some of us with more insight into rumors at the clubs know a bit more of. And the problem like you say: barriers of entry for the girls.

I don't know a good solution here on what we can do about it. But thw clubs: All of them, might want to rethink their agendas if they want to survive another 10 years.
[/QUOTE]Shukran Pistons, I'm glad someone agrees with me anyway. Would be interested in hearing more about those rumors, though appreciate you're limited in what you can say.

[QUOTE=Akibono;2197278]The reason clubs charge entry is to weed out the undesirables. For example, men who ogle and feel up a woman with no intention of going to a room. The same happens on the girls side.[/QUOTE]Does it? I thank Allah for the blessing! When I go the club, there will be plenty of freeloading chicks wanting to cop a free feel of Poly's jiggly jewels in the shower.

But what I noticed over the years is that if a hot woman strips nude among a bunch of horny guys and struts around in her high heels, she generally has an ulterior motive -- making some cash -- and she is not just there to sample the sauna facilities.

If a girl is in an FKK, she means business, regardless of whether she has paid an entry fee. There is always the danger of hardened sharks trying to come in, but if a club takes a firm line against them, eventually they won't even bother appearing at the door, and the management will need to do less and less work.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2197226]What we do know is that every day, they are getting entry fee from nearly a hundred girls which is not insubstantial. You say, if they forego that amount they will make it up with increased men's traffic. May be they will, may be they won't. But they WILL lose that pool of money from girls' entry fee and it is understandable why clubs could remain conservative and unwilling to lose that amount.
[/QUOTE]A healthy FKK is going to have ten times as many customers as girls throughout any given day. So it should make ten times as much money off the guys. Its first concern then should be, "What will attract more guys?" rather than "Let's squeeze more cash out of our stable of girls. ".

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2197226]
I can see both sides of this argument. A girl who paid entry fee has an incentive to work hard and give good service to recoup her investment. A girl who pays nothing has less incentive to do the same.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Akibono;2197278]
When a girl pays entry, they have something to loose.[/QUOTE]Similar points, and good ones. But the assumption you seem to share is that people need to get into some kind of debt before they can be relied on to do a good job. I on the other hand would tend to assume that girls have other needs to be met by earning money, even before "investing" in the system.

Perhaps the best system is a mix of clubs, some with an entry fee for the girls, some with none. The "free" ones can act as feeder clubs for the more established ones. A guy can choose what club he goes to based on whether he prefers fresh girls with an element of risk, or seasoned pros with established reputations.

Especially when there is a new club (not that I am expecting any new clubs in Germany) that is having trouble getting girls, it should try this experiment of free entry for girls. Inshallah this will attract many semi-pros and locals. If the experiment fails it fails, but it should do so for market reasons, not because of pressure from a cartel or from the State.

When Netscape was available in 1994/95 timeframe and I started using it, I could not understand how it was free, why they were not charging, and how they plan to get their investment back.

Then this business model of giving the product away for free and capturing returns through ads or other services became the norm. First, it was software and then some hardware too. Amazon sells its Kindles and echos and other gadgets below cost because they make money off it in myriad other ways.

Europe is a stodgy place business wise, and I doubt they will experiment. None of these tech business models ever came out of Europe.

Want to abolish girls' fee? Why not men's fee as well? Same argument can be made. No fee, many more men, more sessions. How does the club get paid? Some sort of room rent perhaps? Towel rent, charging excessively for food, pestering the men to buy other products (dick enlarging medicines, medicines to prolong sex to 5 hours, legal herbs, you name it).

I personally think that is bogus. There is no price elasticity or very minimal amount in this segment. I don't think there are many or any attractive girls who want to sell their bodies for money but holding back due to lacking the 100 entry. Do you know of any?

If they abolish the men's entry, there will be a lot of free loading men for sure. It will be a everyday Sharks Sunday sausage fest. That will in turn drive out the real mongers. No place to park, no place to sit, sour dour girls who are put off by all the free loaders touching and squeezing, etc etc.

However, there is always room for entrepreneurial gents, Poly. You can gather up a little money, start a small club with no entry fee, and see how it goes. Perhaps partner with a few likeminded men to share cost? Start small. It will be a novel idea, word of mouth will help spread the idea (build it and they WILL come — apologies Kevin Costner) and you can do your own PnL analysis and see if it is a workable, sensible idea or just a utopian dream.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2197435]If they abolish the men's entry, there will be a lot of free loading men for sure. It will be a everyday Sharks Sunday sausage fest. That will for sure drive out the real mongers.[/QUOTE]Well of course. Nobody was talking about letting in guys for free. I'm assuming that is how clubs make 90% of their money. The change I was suggesting is a much smaller one.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2197438]Well of course. Nobody was talking about letting in guys for free. I'm assuming that is how clubs make 90% of their money. The change I was suggesting is a much smaller one.[/QUOTE]The argument is symmetric. If you say "people don't need to go into debt to be good providers or customers", the no entry argument can be extended both ways.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2197441]The argument is symmetric. If you say "people don't need to go into debt to be good providers or customers", the no entry argument can be extended both ways.[/QUOTE]It's totally different. The FKK is filtering the guys based on what money they can present up front, and it is filtering the girls based on their beauty and service. That is the way it should be. Only a feminist would say that guys and girls should be treated the same in every way. I even have a name for it: "the symmetrical fallacy".

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2197438]Well of course. Nobody was talking about letting in guys for free. I'm assuming that is how clubs make 90% of their money. The change I was suggesting is a much smaller one.[/QUOTE]That's the way it should be. Some clubs run on that business model. Others are covering their cost and are making money by letting as many girls in as possible, not caring if they can make money with the number of customers coming and even charging them a whole lot more than the male guests.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2197451]It's totally different. The FKK is filtering the guys based on what money they can present up front, and it is filtering the girls based on their beauty and service. That is the way it should be. Only a feminist would say that guys and girls should be treated the same in every way. I even have a name for it: "the symmetrical fallacy".[/QUOTE]A fee for ladies is a way of filtering. If they are not good enough, they will not make back their money and will not come back. If you do not charge a fee, there will be girls that look around for big spenders or suckers and will not go for the basic 50. For many women there no reason to session with the difficult guys. Free also attracts the really ugly girls who will pester the guys for sessions. For guys, if there is no one interesting to session with or they get hassled too much, they too will not come back. If you want free, go the the rld and see what type of environment it is.

The market has spoken. That is why the FKKs are the way they are. It is maximum profit for the owners and a good environment for the guys. The model is proven by its success over time and why it has been copied in other countries. IMO the clubs have gotten too big. It is really interesting how people fail to appreciate how good and how cheap the model is. Yet, the constant complaint over 50 E.

You have referred to your past difficulties in a number of posts, but I haven't seen one where you described how you overcame them. Did you go through any particular "sex therapy" or just gradually got over being uncomfortable? Perhaps you have discussed this previously, if so it would be great if you could refer me to previous posts. I considered searching through all your old posts, but searching over 1300 posts seemed like a daunting task!

In my case I've gone through different versions of this, in particular with public sex. I've always been fascinated by the swinging / group sex / gangbang scene and have participated in many of those activities with some great experiences. While I always get rock hard watching things like gangbang porn, though (and hey, I'm not the only one, it's the number one subject of porn searches! I've certainly always found it hard to cum when I actually participate.

I do know one young woman who has been a godsend to me, she is a true nymphomaniac and is always enthusiastic to arrange something such as when I've said, you know, I'd really like to try a DP session. Here again, I've done some and I have great memories but it's hard to get them to work. I always think of the disclaimer in TV commercials with crazy driving "Trained professionals on a closed course, do not try this". But still I have the feeling I could do much more and get more out of it if I could overcome my inhibitions.

Geez that must sound really weird, I've done dps and gangbangs and group sex but I'm too inhibited. On the other hand, though, I've experienced issues like this many times in "normal" one on one paid sex. Thank god for my special friend, she is the one woman virtually always guaranteed to get me off. Interestingly, she has been in a relationship with the same guy for long before I've known her, although my guess is she wore the poor guy out years ago. She is around 32 so I know he is around 42.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2197388]Common sentiment I hear. A lot of fly-in mongers, Americans especially, have told me they have difficulty cumming in the room. Over half don't regularly cum in the room. But due to my personal history of having difficulty, my natural follow-up question is "how often can you climax to online porn at home?" Most of them will say their output at home is at least 3 times what they can manage in the club. I don't keep a spreadsheet or anything but here are some observations:

Observation #1: EVERY single one of them has expressed extreme difficulty with CIM. Many even stating that they have never in their life climaxed inside a girl's mouth, unless they did the work themselves and sprayed it in there.

Observation #2: 90-100 percent of the time they can cum in only their go-to position. Many have said they have never in their life cum when a girl is riding them.

Both of the above statements were once true for me. At age 16, my absolute peak in libido, I could never accomplish either of the above. These were milestones that I achieved much later.
[/QUOTE]Also, Hello, to all the current posters from someone in the distant past. I haven't posted in years, basically since circumstances changed and I wasn't going on trips to Germany. I do remember Creature and Optimist as posters, but all of the regulars I used to interact with seem to be gone. I guess 5 years is like 50 internet years. Still, I'm enjoying the discussion. I started reading the FKK threads when our USA sex guide went down with the new "FOSTA / SESTA" internet laws here. But Jackson et al sold it to a foreigner and it's back up and running.

Now I'm retired and could do more pleasure trips, but have to say at 64 I don't feel a special trip to FKK land is worth it to me. I'd be super happy if I had sex every other day, but I sure as heck can't abstain and save up to do, say, 10 times in one week. As relates to the discussion above, the physical limitations are part of it (as Junpr recently described), which is why I'd like even more now to get over hangups which prevent me from enjoying the capabilities I have left.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2197451]It's totally different. The FKK is filtering the guys based on what money they can present up front, and it is filtering the girls based on their beauty and service. That is the way it should be. Only a feminist would say that guys and girls should be treated the same in every way. I even have a name for it: "the symmetrical fallacy".[/QUOTE]I've never been asked to present my wallet for inspection prior to being granted entry. I'm asked for €20 - €100 at the door and then I'm granted access. I have been refused entry from GT twice and was told I couldn't enter YY because my small pack was too large. One of the times GT was refusing me one of the WGs who knows me approached and talked with reception who then allowed me entry. Amazingly, all of the refusals for entry came after 8 years of visiting Sauna clubs and GT was the first club I visited back in 2008. It was strange to me to be refused because I know half of reception from when they worked the floor and I was refused after the door policy had started relaxing a bit.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2197451]It's totally different. The FKK is filtering the guys based on what money they can present up front, and it is filtering the girls based on their beauty and service. That is the way it should be. Only a feminist would say that guys and girls should be treated the same in every way. I even have a name for it: "the symmetrical fallacy".[/QUOTE]Sorry Poly. The invocation of a straw man feminist is the lamest resort on ISG when all else fails and have no logical reply.

If you think what you propose is a good business model, and that it will make money, you should try.

If you think there are several thousands of attractive girls waiting to work in FKK and provide great service at current prices upon removal of entry fee, you should provide evidence.

If you think "build it and they will come" works, you should build.

Good Day.

Can someone advise if there are any clubs in the Essen district?

Thanks, Cap.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2197388]Are you sure that your reduction in productivity is due to age, health and or reduced libido? My understanding is you have only been FKKing about five years. Perhaps your libido has only dropped ten percent. But the "novelty factor" is what is missing now. Some fly-in guys get addicted immediately. Maybe ten trips in a 20 month period. When compared against their first two trips, their production has decreased precipitiously as well, even though they have not aged much. When I was 16, I could masturbate six times a day and climax each time. I had GFs and the first ten times we had sex, I climaxed with relative ease (15-20 minutes). Then the novelty factor went away, and I started having difficulty (60 minutes no climax). But I was still able to masturbate six times a day at home by myself and climax each time.[/QUOTE]Are you having this with all girls? To me, it depends on chemistry how long she will keep me erect at full potential. And I don't realise the sexual chemistry (it is also genetic) until after several times of having had sex. So that is why an FKK is a goldmine. I can try 100 girls, and maybe I find that unstoppable chemistry with 5 or just 2 of them.

[QUOTE=Cappy;2197684]Good Day.

Can someone advise if there are any clubs in the Essen district?

Thanks, Cap.[/QUOTE]FKK? The nearest is Acapulco in Velbert.

Brothel? Kuschelluder nearer to the city centre.