General Info

I flirt away with the women, while feeling their boobs and bottoms. I have never had any complaints for doing that in an FKK club.

Last time in Oase a month ago, I easily groped half the women there, and DFKed 3 girls and even fingered one girl who I didnt got to the room with, and none complained.

I think its important to be flirty and jokey if you are going to touch the women and then dont go to the room with them.

Oase seems to be better than Palace for free touching, cos the women are more forward. As for World i cant say cos I have never been.

Infact I feel like a school boy again when Im in an FKK club. When I was a teenager I went to a mixed school, and I used to feel plenty of girl's bottoms. God bless the 80's when you didnt get sued for behaviour like that.

I can't say i have ever groped a woman. Personally I would never feel up a woman if I was not going with her. And I've seen plenty of girls object to being DFKd etc by men who clearly weren't planning to go to a room - they did not object to the man but made it quite clear to other girls what they think of the man. I'm not saying this applies to Wan King as I have never been there with him - it could be you have such style and panache that there is no problem, but for most ordinary mortals like me....

Routard - As for taking up her time talking - I will only do that if she asks and makes it clear she wants a bit of a break from the job - otherwise I keep it short and sweet - a couple of minutes maximum. No worker wants to be followed round by men asking inane questions or sharing confidences - it stops them working. And yes - sex is better when there is some kind of affinity, when things click. Sex with someone on a different wavelength is impossible except as a mechanical exercise

Chivaz - dead right. No harm in grinning like an idiot. My dog does that whenever he sees a girl dog (he also has his tongue hanging out and his eyes rolling - I have seen some men do this as well!! - However I think I will stick at the sheepish grin which seems to come over me) At FKKW there is one man who always smiles and he is called the Smiling Man - Cordelia says he is liked by most girls

You can touch the ladies but if she puts Mr Wiggy in her mouth, you're obligated to go into the room with her. 50EUR is nothing in my experience, a good hooker where I come from can easily charge a $1000 if she is FKK level. One thing I have noticed in Germany vs. Nederland, in the latter the women are paranoid about bbbj that you will never get it. Its similar in Australia, where the women give you a penis exam before the session(the health authorities down under are anal ).

[QUOTE=Shiatsu]I'm not saying this applies to Wan King as I have never been there with him - it could be you have such style and panache that there is no problem, but for most ordinary mortals like me....[/QUOTE]

Ha Ha, I wish !!!

But there is a technique to a successfull grope : First put your arm around the girls waist, and wait to see if she leans into to you abit. if she doesnt or if she pulls back, move away.
But if she moves in, well i then let my hands roam around. Also if she grabs your cock, you can be assured that she wont mind you groping.
As for the kissing, 2 of the girls actually planted their lips on me after maybe a minute of groping and cock handling. What can i say..

Also if you are tempted by some free groping, start off small with some bottom rubbing. Rubbing a bottom would be considered a far lesser offence than touching a breast or a pussy. Of course you can always ask the girl before hand, most will say yes.

As I said before Oase is much better for this than Palace because the women are more forward. No doubt i will be caught out some day and some angry girl will stick her nail in my testicle or eyeball or something!!!

Wan King - ah - that sounds more like something I can do. I was envisaging you making a cold assault (so to speak). If the girl gives the green signal then you're right to go!! Sounds good

Thanks to all posters below for their comments on this ultra interesting topic: FKK Etiquitte.

Routard, thanks for your honest and open comments below about the specific question of Do-you-want-company? etiquitte in the FKKs. You write:

"I'm embarrased for example when a girl comes to me and asks "want some company?". If I answer "yes", it's nearly if I close the deal."

Where on earth did you get this from? No way does having a conversation with a girl (or two girls or three or whatever) on the couch close the deal. Niet War! As we all know, technically you are not committed to a session until the girl performs bbbj on you...and if you don't want to go have a session with a girl, you have no business allowing her to get to the bbbj stage. But just talking with her or even enjoying a few moments of intamacy on the couch does NOT in my opinion committ one to a session.

Sure we must all act in good faith and not attempt to decieve a girl or take advantage. But this whole FKK scene is one giant flirtation game, and if you and the girl both know the rules and abide by them, then nobody should be offended by a guy not going for the session after a "Do you want company" pitch is accepted. Conversely no male guests should feel pressured to go for a session if he has not behaved outside the rules. I have often taken the game beyond the first stage (i.e. the "Do you want some company?" stage) and played on just to see where it would go, and then later bailed out or even aborted the session before I crossed the zimmer (or bbbj) threshold. After all, we graduated from the Windows just so we can take advantage of getting to know the girls better before we select and being able to develop chemistry. (That's why I pay the 65E entrance fee, to be able to do this!)

Now sometimes it is a bit awkward to bail out whislt you are walking past the bar, or whatever, and you have to come up with some good excuses...but sometimes you just have to look her in the eyes and say: "I changed my mind." With a few specific exceptions, there is no contract really until the bbbj stage or until you cross the through into the room. I think if you are honest about it, it is better. For me, one of the worst mistakes I used to make was to go through with a session even though I knew the chemistry or something else between us was not right. Then I have a really shitty time, feel like you feel when you loose at poker or roullete, and this affects my mindset and ability to enjoy myself and reach good sessions later on that day/night or sometimes beyond.

Here's an example of a recent episode:

Just three nights ago I was in Oase. I was laying down on one of the couches in the big lounge room leading on to the kino, watching the girls parade in/out of kino in a horizontal position. From across the room an attractive fairly slim girl about mid-twenties with dirty blonde hair down to shoulders started to approach in my direction. I decided to lock eyes with her whilst she was still some distance away and keep the optical connection all the way through her walk towards me. She came over to me, smiled and asked "Moechtest du gesaelshaft?" (Sorry, no umlauts!)

I really did want to get to know her, because I had actually let her stroke me a bit in the kino three days earlier (she did not recognise me or remember I had met her before; no wonder: Imagine how many guys these girls chat to quickly over the course of a long weekend, esp. the Thurs so-called Frei Eintritt Tag!), and I was a bit turned on to her. She gave off vibes of possibly delivering a really strong GFE session, but I was not sure about her, indeed not even sure I was ready to make a decision to committ to a session with any girl at that point as I was still checking out the offerings on the menu that day. So I answered her: "Wie du willest," (Suit yourself) and as I said this I smiled and looked into her eyes more deeply and made room for her on the couch by sliding over a bit.

This manouevre had the advantage of getting her to sit with me, but not giving her the feeling that I was definitely interested to session. Just to talk a bit...and it gave her incentive to show me her intimate side, ja?

Over the course of the next few minutes, I played the game, speaking with her, telling her how nice she was, but how I was not sure I was ready, "I'm a little kaput, you know? Not finished for the night, but maybe I need a little more time, maybe not" --a bald lie! I had just walked in the door less than half and hour earlier! So I let her start to fondle me a bit, and accepted her light kisses and brushes of her lips against mine. I got bold for a second and let my tounge out a bit to see if she would DFK, whe started to meet the tounge but I quickly retracted my tounge and did not initiate a full kiss. (I had my answer, I thought.)

The girl's name is Sandra, btw. A good German-speaker from Poland.

Somehow, I let her talk me down from a trip to the kino: I had suggested it, but she said: "Much, much better in a more quiet place like a room." (That was a bit of suspicious information about her, and I started to get mixed feelings.) Nevertheless, I let her think I was warming to the idea of going straight to the room --whilst privately I was mulling over my encounter with her and reviewing the vibes she had/was giving off. Then she asked me how long I would like in the room: "30 minutes is much too short, an hour is much, much better, blah, blah..."

Hey, in that moment, it all crystalised for me and I knew she was not right! So from that point onwards I changed my entire posture and let her kn ow I was not interested. She looked a bit baffled for a minute and perhaps a bit hurt, but a few seconds passed and a look of comprhension came over her: She suddenly understood the mistake she had made with me, that is: To give me that session up-grade sales pitch, even before we were in the room!

Not that it would even matter if, for example, I had said on the couch: "Let's do 1 hour" but decided in the room to terminate the session, or end it naturally, with only 29 minutes on the play (room) clock. I don't think you have to pay for a full hour if you if you make a verbal declaration about going for a full hour, but in reality finish your business after only 30 minutes!

This is just one example of how you can play the game, still get that company, without committing to a session. Be honest, smile, act a little naive if you must, and let the girl decide to act like an aggressive asshole if she gets upset that you ain't parting with your money just after a chat. I mean, do you think every chat with a girl at the bar ties you down to a session? No way...

Questions for the experts:

Does DATY seal the contract where you have to pay the €50??
Or is only BBBJ??

Example: Could you sit a girl down, kiss her, suck her tits,eat her pussy etc for 20 mins and then change your mind and walk away and NOT pay any money??

What are the limits of free activity??

Can the girl complain to the management if you do this??
Does the girl have rights in this area??

I often felt I could have made my free activity last abit longer.

These may be questions for PETER, thee FKK knowledge man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But please let anyone else answer either.
cheers

Fred

Fred,

The answers to your questions are pretty obvious if you think about it. Oral sex seals the deal despite which direction it goes. Yes the girl could/should complain to the management if a male guest abuses the situation by doing what you describe.

... always works. In any interpersonal situation, I smile often. Because I like to be friendly, and because people like to be nice to friendly people.

In my rookie days at Atlantis, I tried to avoid smiling in order to prevent myself from leading girls on. So I always showed a stern look. Here is what this buys you: isolation! But that's no at all what I come to the clubs for. I want personal contact.

I forgot who it was at Atlantis, but this one girl I went to the room with really opened my eyes. After we were done, she said to me: "Dude, you are such a friendly and fun person in the room, why do you act so cold and unapproachable downstairs?" That opened my eyes to my strategic errors.

Since then I always smiled and looked with appreciation at (well, almost) all of the girls. At the FKKs this strategy has worked great for me. And the results really blew me away in the Rio termas!

There are some really really gorgeous girls walking around completely naked in the FKKs. No harm in showing them how beautiful you think they are. Yes, some of them (most of them) come over as a result. But that's good, not bad. Many times it leads to great conversations, and sometimes to sessions with girls who just win me over in the process. That's good, too, and reminds me to avoid judging the book by the cover - i fyou know what I mean.

If you really don't want to session, and if your dick has not touched their lips yet, you are still not committed. There is always the old standby: "I just got back from the room; sorry, maybe later". And the girls realize that we have only limited capacity in terms of the numbers of sessions.

euro

Ortos: Excellent report on the Gasaellshaft. I think you have it nailed.

Fred / Wan: There are no explicit rules about this, but for sure I would say that oral sex will seal the deal. There have been some encounters in the past where the guy has changed his mind after some bbbj in the main room. I remember reported instances of the girls taking the issue up at the counter and the guest having to pay. I also remember some instance of half pay for this. Anyways, IMHO you have committed to the session at that point.

There are no actual time limits of free activity. I would say it depends on what your intentions are. If you are purposefully pushing it over say 5-10 minutes without going to room, you will not be popular by the girls. You may get away with it for the first few times, but be aware that the girls talk amongst them self and you might be "labeled". As you are taking girls to room in between, this might not be a problem though if they feel they have a fair chance. There are guys coming to the clubs, just paying entrance and then never take any of the girls to room. The girls tend to learn pretty fast who those are if they are repetitive customers.

quote: "I often felt I could have made my free activity last abit longer."

Again this kind of depends on if you intend to go to room with the girl. If you are sure you will go to room, I think it is ok to stretch it a bit, specially if you are to do a longer session or some extras (guess it is kind of proportional), but if you have no intentions of going to room, I think you have to be fair. The girls have also paid entrance fees and are there to make return on that.

And then just maybe we should not analyse this do death and keep it a bit spontanious ;-)

Chivaz

You asked: "Could you sit a girl down, kiss her, suck her tits,eat her pussy etc for 20 mins and then change your mind and walk away and NOT pay any money??"

If you put it the way you do, your question sounds pretty insane! Do you really think that DATY with a girl would be OK, and you should not have to pay for it? And why would you want to do this in the first place? You don't really want to be so cheap and take advantage of a girl in this way, do you?

Here is the general rule of thumb: If the girl grabs any part of your body, you are still not committed. Light kissing is OK, even if you do not want to go to a room later. Extended DFK is not. Also, you shouldn't really initiate it either, if you do not intend at all to follow through. Tit-sucking is definitely not OK. DATY is so far out of bounds that it made me laugh when I read it.

... but perhaps that was the intent of the question ... LOL

Now, don't get me wrong. You can do all of these things, if you are prepared to follow through and go to a room with this girl later. In that case all of the above is considered regular no-charge foreplay.

But if you are seriously trying to do the things you asked, and if you are not willing to follow them up with a for-pay session, then you are ruining it for all of us. 'cause if a girl gets scammed a few times by guys like you, then she will not be as willing any more to engage in free foreplay and insist to go to a room right away. And if all girls go this way, then the FKK experience is kaputt.

euro

Friends (Chivaz, dedalus, Shiatsu, Routard, Ortos, Euro et al),

This discussion on this thread is one of the reasons why this forum is great, and before I pitch in with my 2 cents, I just want to say thanks to all of you for your frank, enlightening, lucid, entertaining and very intelligent comments.(except for Chivaz's comment about New Yorkers – we're not that bad!)

I always look into the eyes, and have opined this from the very beginning of my posts here. It's what I do outside of FKK's in my interpersonal relations with clients, colleagues, employees, family members, government bureaucrats, taxi drivers, waiters, etc. It shows an interest in the people I meet, and telegraphs a desire to understand where they are coming from and what they would like to receive in return from me. When people avert their eyes, they send a clear message that they either are not interested in communicating with me, that they have something to hide, are self-conscious about something, or fear that basic level of intimacy with me.

When I avert my eyes, I am sending the same message back, and immediately put some distance between me and them. So, if I want to bring them into my "circle of trust" (my apologies to the Robert DeNiro and the Fockers) I communicate this by looking them straight on. Try this outside an FKK environment and see the results.

When I'm at an FKK, I want to guage the level of intimacy that can be achieved with the person sharing my couch. Along the way, I make sure to compliment her on her beautiful eyes. I look for the smile in there, the mirror to the soul, that little bit of mirth, to see if she enjoys what she's doing, and what we're about to share. That's my litmus test, and other than one instance at Villa in Hannover, it's never failed me.

It’s not so much the smile on the mouth (which can be put on and taken off like makeup) as the smile in the eyes which can never lie. It shows respect for the person I'm with, an interest in their true person, not the image that their body transmits. Bodies change with time, go flabby or go south but the person inside remains true.

Now I admit that this may sound like so much psycho analytic new age hogwash. But it's difficult for me to commit for a session with an sp, without first establishing, like my learned colleague Shiatsu, a level of emotional intimacy that is the foreplay before the foreplay, and may I add, the afterplay as well. Of course if I'm occasionally in the mood for a "Wham bang, thank you mam", that's okay too and then the litmus test becomes more on the level of physical attraction than emotional magnetism.

This respect issue basically removes "cold" groping as an option, but if I am sitting with a woman and talking and we begin feeling the skin, there's nothing wrong with that for a few enjoyable minutes. I've used that "Wie du willest," line myself, and if the woman decides to sit with me without a commitment from my side, she's passed over the the first line of intimacy on her own volition and made her first step into the circle of trust.

It's all in the eyes guys. All of these women have breasts and other sundry body parts, but not all of them have voluptuous insides.

Again, thanks to chivaz for starting this, and all of the learned brethren who pitched in.

Hi Isseu,

Glad you joined in. During my first few visits to the FKKs not so many years ago, I was armed with some advice from the boards, some I forgot as soon as I entered the club dumbstruck by the sights and sounds of the place, but some stuck with me. One of those advice that stuck was actually your "it's all in the eyes" as a indication for a level of intimacy.

One of the things that keeps drawing me to girls like Gabriela at Oase is that the smile actually reaches her eyes and by that you can see it is a genuine one. The difference between a fake and real smile is all in the eyes.

I know you New Yorkers are not that bad ;-)

Chivaz

When I first went to the clubs, I headed straight for the eye candy. After being "processed" for a few times and given short sessions, I found an emotional encounter was just as important.


When you have sessioned with a girls, and she finds that you are interesting and kind, you get a much different session. She then tries to please you instead of process you. However, I understand Shiatsu when he says he sometimes wants to hide from the girls. Some expect you to session with them every time or expect you to spend 100E if that is what you spent the last time. This can be a bit uncomfortable.

Iseeu - can I feebly echo your words? "eyes. I look for the smile in there, the mirror to the soul, that little bit of mirth, to see if she enjoys what she's doing" you say

I think you are dead right about the skills needed at an FKK and those in "real" life. It's all about relationships(even if only a cash one) and integrity. My main concern after my initial FKK visits was to make sure I was not ripped off, and of course as time goes on one's expectations rise. There are of course the techniques of watching how the girls behave with clients - that way I can eliminate probably 30% of the girls. This leaves the other 70% who probably give decent service. Out of that percentage I am looking for the perhaps 5% who give exceptional sevice - and if I don't find her I won't go with anyone normally.

Like you I have found that the only way is an almost instinctive understanding from watching their body language and primarily their eyes. It is like, as I put it in posts well over a year ago, the eyes are the window to the soul, and as Chivaz says the smile only counts if it reaches the eyes. Only if I see honesty and tenderness there will I go with a girl in any expectation of a good session. If the girl has that, it is obvious like a flash of lightning - one time I saw a girl entering the FKK as I was dressed and leaving, and I turned right round and went back in, changed and had the first of many sessions with her, another time I saw a different girl who was not my "type" and I would normally refuse totally but who only had to open her eyes to say she was loving trhe job, the next time was also with a rather spotty podgy girl who also had the eyes, and lastly one very recently who I caught the eyes at a tangent and saw that she would be a good provider.

I have recently never made a mistake in assessing the quality. I guess maybe I am fortunate as part of my job is about assessing how people are, what they need and what they have to offer. FKKing is a marvellous opportunity to practice understanding people skills. Just to test myself I will occasionally go with someone who I think is only a good (not outstanding) provider (using my eye assessment and body language reaction) and have always found that to be accurate. Nobody can fake eyes or even body language - faked body language is clearly fake - what is in the soul is expressed in the body and eyes however much technique is layered over the top. Large breasts, fluttery eyes, false smiles, screams of ecstasy, can all be faked - but someone who enjoys the job and gives a little bit of themselves cannot. What counts is what is on the inside - regardelss of age, shape, ethnicity and so on

One of my favourite workers used to say to me that men only liked her body and would ignore her when she was old. Trite maybe, but true - this person would be the same person whatever age she was, and in the 20 months she was at FKK, the lines began on her face, and the muscles began to move their slow descent, but to my mind she was growing as a person and the inside was better than ever. To my mind, if I were only to go with 18 year olds then that would mean I was only the consumer of an empty body not a temporary partner with a person (the fact that it is a commercial transaction does not mean the person does not exist)

Of course the extreme logic of what I am saying is that the physical sex is only a way to get somewhere else. Now that's a paradox of a proposition to put in a discussion about how to get the best sex - best sessions comes when it's not about the physical alone. In fact I would even ask myself if in some ways the best sessions I've had have been in those every rare sessions when the closest we got was touching hands. This intense sex depends not on mechanical programmes to make a man come but on what the shared 30 minutes (or longer) experience is.

As they say never mind the width, take some time to discover the quality, which may be subtle or obvious, young or old, black or white, but always unique

Ortos and Chivaz - i won't add to what you have said in recent posts except to say that I have the same views and experiences and think you have said it exactly correctly