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[QUOTE=Cynical]You should understand that if the security cameras on every club are a much higher risk to your privacy, as they record everything in their vicinity[/QUOTE]Let's hope the club management never wants to use them "internally". By their interpretation of internally, we could be at risk from the security cameras too. No, no. This is not for me.
[QUOTE=Henio]Ohh well, I was really gonna let this whole thing go by, but since we have the owner stating some misinformation here, I feel obligated to respond:
I observed the whole thing from start to finish. I was sitting with the "complainant" eating by one of the outside table and not far away Angelina was dancing. After a while we notice there is a photographer taking picture, and he is turning the camera towards us (not at Angelina).
We walk up to the photographer and my friend asks him
"were you taking our picture?"
"Absolutely" was the response
"Can you please delete them"
"Absolutely not"
The photographer was dressed in a red rope just like any other customer and as such not distinguishable from other guests except that he had the camera
My friend went to the desk to complain, and I witnessed the whole exchange. He was not loud, he was not drunk (he even was the designated driver for the night) but he was indeed upset about having his picture taken by another guest of the club.
The discussion lasted about 30-45 seconds, not 5 minutes, and yes, there was a line of customers waiting at the desk since there were no free lockers which may have added to the manager's stress level.
Stephan, the manager cut my friend of in mid sentence and did indeed say that the photographer was working for the club and the pictures were for his own personal collection. My friend objected since he does not want his picture in a FKK to be anybody's personal collection and explained to Stephan that this activity was "not cool", but did so in a composed allthough a little bit upset manner, but at no time was he loud or obnoxious and at no time did he show any activity that should have had Stephan come to the conclusion that he was drunk.
Stephan, you were the one that was loud, raising you voice close to shouting "this is my club and I do what I like. If you don't like it then you can leave". This you said couple of times cutting off my friend in mid sentence when he was trying to explain why that taking pictures of him in a club was an uppsetting activity.
My friend then accepted that he was not getting anywhere with this so he turned around and walked away. At this you went after him and said "I have changed my mind. You leave the club now".
So, this is exactly how it went down. Stephan may see it differently and look at it as a challange to his authority of the club, but not recognising the issue at hand as being problematic for the guest is a bit strange.
We left the club (since there were few of us sharing a ride) and at no time was any reimbursement offered, and we did not ask for one. To be honest, it looked like you were using the opportunity to clear out some lockers since the whole situation was non-threatening and we were walking away from the issue when you decided to have us leave. This is however our observation and I am not stating it as fact, but all else above are absolute facts on the situation.
Now, there are a few mistakes I believe that were made in handling the issue:
a) The photographer was dressed in a red rope just like any other visitor giving no indication that he was working for the club. He looked like any other guest except with a camera filming the guests. This is a mistake by the club. The guests should be able to identify the photographer and have the opportunity to move away (like most other clubs do).
b) If Stephan felt uncomfortable having this issue discussed in front of other guests, then he should have offered to take the conversation to another place.
c) Shouting at the client in a threatening way is just bad style, there are much better ways available to establish authority over the situation.
d) The guests in question left the club without getting their entry fee paid back. Not a big deal really, but I think when you decide to throw someone out of club for complaining, you should pay back the entry fee.
I have been in this game for 10 years, visited clubs all around Germany, and I was very surprised witnessing the manner which the issue was handled. I can only assume that the Stephan was overstressed or something like that because of the whole party thing and did not act rationally and in a composed manner.
[/QUOTE]
I too have followed this issue with great interest. I find the behaviour of the club manager, Herr Stephan, to be completely out of line and arrogant. He is dead wrong, and seems clearly in denial about it, or at least unable to admit his own mistakes. There is no question about the photography during club operating hours when guest are present, both male and female guests: Photos are dead wrong at anytime.
True Stephan may have been over-stressed and not acting rationally. But several days later he composes a post in which he does not back down, but just digs himself deeper into a hole. He even makes completely outrageous statements, like implying that the complainer was drunk. Did you do an alcohol test, Stephan?
In light of all this --and it's all here for all to read below-- I would support a full-blown BOYCOTT OF VILLA VERTICO by all members here until:
-- An official apology is issued by the management of the club VV.
-- A new policy is published banning all photography in the club (by anybody) during operating hours.
-- Free entry is offered by the managment to the unfortunate guests that were kicked out of the club just for calling into question the club's own mistaken policy.
I would further urge all who support this boycott idea to spread the word and encourage boycotting this club on all other Message Boards and Internet Chat rooms dealing with this hobby in Europe. Let the message spread far and wide, that is what I say!
Ortos
[QUOTE=Ortos]
In light of all this --and it's all here for all to read below-- I would support a full-blown BOYCOTT OF VILLA VERTICO by all members here
Ortos[/QUOTE]
I'd like to know what's being said on the local boards...the roemerforum and the ijsberenforum. Id also like to point out blurring a face does not always guarantee confidentiality. Someone out there could possibly recognize you by a tattoo, a scar etc that wouldn't be blurred out of the photo. You get recognized, you could be in deep shit with work and/or home.
As to my upcoming trip, had VV penciled in...but with these latest reports will have to go along with this boycott.
By chance I was just looking on Lustscout, Roemer and Rheinforum. Nothing. It is an issue on Youppie (French forum), where someone copied the ISG reports concerning the photography. Reactions similar to here.
There is some discussion on it on the Ijsberenforum: [url]http://www.ijsberenforum.nl/forum/showthread.php?t=11767[/url]
[QUOTE=Breadman]I'd like to know what's being said on the local boards...the roemerforum and the ijsberenforum. Id also like to point out blurring a face does not always guarantee confidentiality. Someone out there could possibly recognize you by a tattoo, a scar etc that wouldn't be blurred out of the photo. You get recognized, you could be in deep shit with work and/or home.
As to my upcoming trip, had VV penciled in...but with these latest reports will have to go along with this boycott.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps one of the reasons why this issue should be of greater concern to isg members vs other local board members is: Stephan evicted ISG members, i.e. Auslander-mongers (non-German mongers), and specifically English-speaking mongers because one of them had the cajones to question the practise of open photography (hired by the club!!) during operating hours. Plus, the people who were actually involved and present during the event are members of this very board. Do I need to name names?
This is an outrage to all of us, and the more so because --and let's be realistic here-- there is little chance Stephan would have evicted local German guests or spoken to them in such an arrogant, condescending manner. I was not there, so I cannot be sure, but it sure smacks to me of a ein bischken xenophobia, ne?
And if this jerk Stephan cannot even mustre an apology or even admit the slightest bit of culpability, then he deserves his club to be black-listed by all who still believe in a degree of integrity and respect (auch fuer Auslander!) in this scene. Or am I wrong here?
Ortos
[QUOTE=Toscana]By chance I was just looking on Lustscout, Roemer and Rheinforum. Nothing. It is an issue on Youppie (French forum), where someone copied the ISG reports concerning the photography. Reactions similar to here.[/QUOTE]
I did not check out Lustscout yet, but VV has had very few reports on the Rheinforum or Roemerforum period. It would seem that not so many of those guys are visiting or reporting on the place.
Also I did not notice any adverts for VV on the Rheinforum. I do not know what this means or if it implies anything. Probably not, but it is interesting to note.
Cheers,
Dedalus
[QUOTE=Henio]There is some discussion on it on the Ijsberenforum: [url]http://www.ijsberenforum.nl/forum/showthread.php?t=11767[/url][/QUOTE]
Yes there is! And we concluded that although some pictures were taken on the Hustler Party (with no intention, Pictures to be placed on any bulletin as has been expressed 1000 times, also on the party) that Villa Vertigo is a very nice club. I frequent weekly many clubs in NRW (GT, PHG, VV) and in the Frankfurt area.
I know no other club in Germany where the manager is always asking his guests if everything is OK and whether there are still points for improvement. Stephan is a man with a mission he wants to make of VV the best club in NRW.
The club opened begin Januari and now I am very satisfied with VV. After just about 6 months! Not a bad job.
I was on the Hustler party and know that the photographer said, these pictures are only taken for a private album if that is OK for you then stay if you do not want that then please stay out of my picture.
That was all. No pictures, ofcourse as has been promissed were published on what website what so ever!!
I am ashamed of the insinuating reports I have read in this topic the last few weeks.
The only forum that allowed that pictures taken from "some private person" were published actually was ISG.
I refer to this report on ISG,
[url]http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=755175&postcount=48[/url]
Let us face the truth. The only forum that published private pictures about VV without permission was ISG. I recognize on the ISG pictures somes faces that I know very well. For me it is a shame these pictures were published here!!!
VV is not heaven on earth, nevertheless I come there almost weekly that means I like it there!
To tell the thruth some reactions in this topic are indeed wrong, yes very wrong ... .
Regards,
Big30
[QUOTE=Big30]Yes there is! And we concluded that although some pictures were taken on the Hustler Party (with no intention, Pictures to be placed on any bulletin as has been expressed 1000 times, also on the party) that Villa Vertigo is a very nice club. I frequent weekly many clubs in NRW (GT, PHG, VV) and in the Frankfurt area. [/QUOTE]
I think noone has said here that the club is not nice. It is the actions of management that are being critizised
[QUOTE=Big30]
I know no other club in Germany where the manager is always asking his guests if everything is OK and whether there are still points for improvement. Stephan is a man with a mission he wants to make of VV the best club in NRW.[/QUOTE]
There are many witnesses to the encounter between Stephan and Fusco, yours truly included, and at that time he sure was not asking us for any ideas for improvement
[QUOTE=Big30]
The club opened begin Januari and now I am very satisfied with VV. After just about 6 months! Not a bad job.[/QUOTE]
I agree. That is why the whole thing is a shame. We really wanted to like this club and were having a very good time up until this incident. We even talked about putting the club onto our permanent itenary (which is quite often).
[QUOTE=Big30]
I was on the Hustler party and know that the photographer said, these pictures are only taken for a private album if that is OK for you then stay if you do not want that then please stay out of my picture.[/QUOTE]
The photographer said nothing at all to us before he started shooting the pictures. We were sitting on a sofa behind a table eating and all of a sudden we realized he was shooting at us. We covered our faced but he kept going. That is when we stood up and approached him and he admitted he was taking our picture and did not want to delete them
[QUOTE=Big30]
That was all. No pictures, ofcourse as has been promissed were published on what website what so ever!!
[/QUOTE] No, that is NOT all. We complained and were thrown out of the club. THATS ALL. Do you think that is justifiable?
[QUOTE=Big30]
I am ashamed of the insinuating reports I have read in this topic the last few weeks. [/QUOTE]
And I am astonished that you do not recognise the need for guys to be able to count on their privacy and their right not to have a guy dressed as any other guest take their pictures
[QUOTE=Big30]
The only forum that allowed that pictures taken from "some private person" were published actually was ISG.
I refer to this report on ISG,
[url]http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=755175&postcount=48[/url]
[/QUOTE]
No, the pictures could be posted on lots of different forums, but I agree, this should not happen either and is just to show how dangerous it is to allow ANYONE take pictures in a club. Every guest should respect the privacy of other guest and not take pictures of them in the club
[QUOTE=Big30]
Let us face the truth. The only forum that published private pictures about VV without permission was ISG. I recognize on the ISG pictures somes faces that I know very well. For me it is a shame these pictures were published here!!!
[/QUOTE] Agree, they should not be posted here or in any other place
[QUOTE=Big30]
VV is not heaven on earth, nevertheless I come there almost weekly that means I like it there!
To tell the thruth some reactions in this topic are indeed wrong, yes very wrong ... .
[/QUOTE]
Using your words "Let's face the truth":
Truth 1: There was a photographer taking pictures in the club
Truth 2: The photographer was dressed as any other guest
Truth 3: The photographer admitted he had taken a guests picture
Truth 4: The guest complained to the manager
Truth 5: The manager threw the guest out of the club
Big30: Do you honestly think this issue was handled correctly?
As I have repeatedly stated, it is a very nice club with great facilities and so and so lineup. I believe I have been very subtle in my critisism of the events. I did not bring the details up until Stephan was not truthful of the event on this board. I do not believe I have been unfair in telling it as it happened.
You must understand there are two issues at hand here that are being critizised:
Issue a) How should photography be conducted at a club
Issue b) How should guest complaints be handled at the club
In our case, they failed on both accounts, but if I understand you correctly Big30, you are saying that they were successful on both accounts or am I reading your defence of VV actions wrongly?
[quote=ortos]and if this jerk stephan cannot even mustre an apology or even admit the slightest bit of culpability, then he deserves his club to be black-listed by all who still believe in a degree of integrity and respect (auch fuer auslander!) in this scene. or am i wrong here?[/quote]
ortos,
sorry i won't be joining the boycott.
since this is turning into a "respekt vor auslander!" issue, should we also not boycott gt for turning away my friend and i just because my friend is not white?
actually, both he and i let it go. and we had a friendly chat with the owner on a later date when we were admitted.
i don't remember reading anyone complaining about the mobile phone pictures posted in this forum which show other mongers (presumably without their consent). big30 is right on this issue.
while i don't like that a photographer was present during club hours there are conflicting reports as to what transpired. as i don't know what really transpired, i will not be joining any boycott of vv. frankly, there is way too much ego in this dispute and demands for public apologies. this could probably have been settled by a polite private conversation after the fact (next day) or via pm if stephen signed up for a membership. at this point, it turned into a pissing contest, and i decline to take sides.
the issue of photography at the club does bother me, whether it is by club staff or isg members.
i think vv still has ways to go in terms of the line up and vibe. but i am rooting for vv to improve. i'll probably pop my head in once every few months to check up on the progress. the facilities are great and they do not seem to exclude guests based on their race. complaints about the shower, wc layout are just plain silly. do you really care if your silloette is visable behind the opaque door when drying off?
as for photography, i plan to keep my eyes peeled for cameras (both professional and mobile phone) and stay out of their field of view.
cheers,
radler
[QUOTE=Radler]should we also not boycott GT for turning away my friend and I just because my friend is not white?[/QUOTE]
Hummmmm...... off-topic but how did Radler knew the reason they were turned away is [b]just[/b] because they are not white? The club told them so? Unlikely. Sounds like bullshit to me. How do they explain they were admitted at a later date then? Changed their skin colour?
For the record, I'm also non-white, and I have also been refused entry to a club more than once (or even have services refused by a girl). But I never put that on my skin colour without proof. There are tens of reasons to deny entry of a club to somebody on a particular day, some personal, but some not.
So I think that if somebody wants to make some accusation about racism, he should also [b]bring some credible proof first[/b].
To be honest, I'm tired on my fellow non-white mongerers (in general, not talking about Radler here) who, at the first incident, blame it or their skin colour. Sounds like it takes a lot of time for them to overcome their complex.
Jim
[QUOTE=Radler]Ortos,
Sorry I won't be joining the boycott.
Since this is turning into a "Respekt vor Auslander!" issue, should we also not boycott GT for turning away my friend and I just because my friend is not white?
Actually, both he and I let it go. And we had a friendly chat with the owner on a later date when we were admitted...
Cheers,
Radler[/QUOTE]
Radler,
One must respect your position not to be personally offended by what happened at VV that day, but my call for a boycott is related to the actions of the management in arrogantly evicting some guests who simply complained about having their picture taken, and this is something you do not address in your comments. I find it outrageous. I am not saying the club is distinctly anti-Foreigner, but I am wondering if the manager Stephan would indeed have spoken to German guests in that manner or kicked them out simply for questioning what was going on. Don't you wonder about that too? And I am not sure your situation at GT is at all analogous...
And I also find it outrageous that a week or two after the event, he should publish remarks here that show absolutely no remorse for having photography going on, something that bothers some of his "dear guests," and no sympathy for the men who were evicted and lost their entry fees.
[QUOTE=Big30]The only forum that allowed that pictures taken from "some private person" were published actually was ISG.
I refer to this report on ISG,
[url]http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=755175&postcount=48[/url]
Let us face the truth. The only forum that published private pictures about VV without permission was ISG. I recognize on the ISG pictures somes faces that I know very well. For me it is a shame these pictures were published here!!!
[/QUOTE]
I posted the pictures to illustrate a key incident in my report. I cropped the pictures to cut out the other customers and blurred the faces of the 2 mongers still visible in 2 of the pictures. I question whether it is still possible to recognize those 2 faces.
I accept the points made in this discussion that pictures should not be taken or posted without consent from the people involved. I have asked Jackson to either remove all the pictures in my post or else allow me to further edit them. I take full resposibility for this and apologize to any one who may have been offended by this action.
Still, all of this is besides the point. ISG is a public forum, dependent on contributions from people like ourselves who visit these clubs as pay
ing customers. It is certainly not Jackson's or the ISG's policy to take pictures of their customers. It is VV's policy, and we can assume that those pictures were taken with the intent of publishing them on the VV's own website/blog.
[QUOTE=GandJim]Hummmmm...... off-topic but how did Radler knew the reason they were turned away is [b]just[/b] because they are not white? The club told them so? Unlikely. Sounds like bullshit to me. How do they explain they were admitted at a later date then? Changed their skin colour?
For the record, I'm also non-white, and I have also been refused entry to a club more than once (or even have services refused by a girl). But I never put that on my skin colour without proof. There are tens of reasons to deny entry of a club to somebody on a particular day, some personal, but some not.
So I think that if somebody wants to make some accusation about racism, he should also [b]bring some credible proof first[/b].
To be honest, I'm tired on my fellow non-white mongerers (in general, not talking about Radler here) who, at the first incident, blame it or their skin colour. Sounds like it takes a lot of time for them to overcome their complex.
[/QUOTE]
GandJim,
First of all, I am white and pass easily for German until I open my mouth. It is my friend who is not white. I have never been refused entry to a club. My friend has been denied entry once before when he arrived alone. We went together because I thought there was zero chance he would be denied entry arriving with me. I was wrong. As far as your "tens of reason", I came up with the following:
1) club really was full (nope, LBC and others checked and many lockers were empty)
2) friend was loud or boisterous (nope, I did all the talking, in German)
3) friend was ill groomed or dirty (nope)
4) friend had previously visited and caused an issue (nope, never was admitted)
I'm having difficulty coming up with the other "tens of reasons". Perhaps you would care to enlighten us.
To answer your question why he was later admitted, two reasons. First, it was a different receptionist. Second, we had LBC with us, who is quite recognizable and has attended many times recently.
So, no offense GandJim, you weren't there.
My point was not to call for a boycott of GT, as I noted that we had certainly gotten over it and indeed had a very polite conversation with the owner. I was using it to illustrate that the great VV controversy had gotten out of hand.
Cheers,
Radler
[QUOTE=Ortos]One must respect your position not to be personally offended by what happened at VV that day, but my call for a boycott is related to the actions of the management in arrogantly evicting some guests who simply complained about having their picture taken, and this is something you do not address in your comments. I find it outrageous. I am not saying the club is distinctly anti-Foreigner, but I am wondering if the manager Stephan would indeed have spoken to German guests in that manner or kicked them out simply for questioning what was going on. Don't you wonder about that too? And I am not sure your situation at GT is at all analogous...[/QUOTE]
I'm not that offended because I don't know what truly transpired. I feel confident that there was a camera involved and a discussion with Stephen resulting in an eviction. Tone and context matter in these issues. While I think it is good that the incident was posted so we can all decide what weight to give the incident, it is the desire to publicly punish the owner than makes me question what actually transpired. I suspect the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
As for my GT issue, I used it as an illustration some times it is best just to let things go. Also, I wanted to make you question the whole boycott issue with the GT example because I don't expect anyone not to go to GT based on this incident. Hilter could be running the club and we would all happily go and pay the eintritt. It's that good.
You are right, my incident was not directly comparable as we were not out our Eintritt. It was also, however, a result of a bad decision or policy by management.
[QUOTE=Ortos]And I also find it outrageous that a week or two after the event, he should publish remarks here that show absolutely no remorse for having photography going on, something that bothers some of his "dear guests," and no sympathy for the men who were evicted and lost their entry fees.[/QUOTE]
He bothered to post in the forum and it may have truly been his point of view. The fact that he posted indicated he was bothered by the incident. Perhaps the matter could have been resolved had the conversation gone private from there. And the photography issue has been discussed ad nausium. My position is clear on that in other posts.
Cheers,
Radler