General Info

[QUOTE=Optimist;2104688] Technically it is illegal to refuse entry on grounds of race, except to a private event. Girls: well that is up to them. One girl refused me because I was over 50. No comeback[/QUOTE]Just got an idea. Freedom Poon Riders! I will arrange a tour bus of Arabs and African Americans on a tour to Germany. We will all dress is suits with bow ties. If they refuse us will then file a lawsuit in Germany and start a March. Hopefully I can skim enough cash of the tour fees to set myself up with multiple free sessions.

[QUOTE=BaltiX;2104165]How would someone outside of gov would know the girl works as a working girl? Something tells me this aspect of the new law would get thrown out of court or unenforced by state governments.[/QUOTE]Doesn't Germany have some sort of law allowing public freedom of records access? Also maybe the press could try to get the information as part of a news story or something?

[QUOTE=Pistons;2104773]Why would they need a lawyer?[/QUOTE]Pistons,

To your question why they needed a lawyer.

Only just to be prepared. I think that should not be a disadvantage.

It's one thing telling lies to family, friends, club managers, customers and that's what I like the most, telling lies to boyfriend or husband. But telling the authorities the right lies is quite another matter.

Imagine the 20 year old young woman somewhere from Eastern Europe. Speaks very little German or English and should then attend the counseling interview without help and instructions. (Despite the interpreter who is called in).

What should she tell during the consultation? "My boyfriend told me I need to register so I can work, because he needs gas for his rusty stolen BMW and he's addicted to MDMA, but my boyfriend only loves me as long as I pay him and the other sluts in the club pay him also for being loved, I have to work."

That would be difficult.

I like to point out of the law:

Paragraph 9 measures for advice.

Here it says:

(2) The competent authority shall, without delay, take the necessary measures to protect the person, if there is an actual indication that:

1.

A person is under 21 years of age and is or will be brought by a third party to take or continue the prostitution or.

2.

A person is or will be induced by a third party to exploit a predicament, their helplessness linked to their stay in a foreign country or their personal or economic dependence on prostitution, or that person is or is to be exploited by third parties.

(Google Translation).

The whole construction of the young woman should be able to withstand unpleasant demands.

For a 45-year-old German who has been in business for 22 years, things may look different. She may be able to handle the whole thing without help.

Clubs are advised by lawyers, why not the girls. Maybe the girls are also advised by the lawyers of the clubs, but probably not for free.

The good thing is that not only experts work in German authorities. No, sometimes even real amateurs. But I speculate and actually know absolutely nothing.

But I love that these mongers on ISG see me trolling.

[QUOTE=DrPoon;2104947]Doesn't Germany have some sort of law allowing public freedom of records access? Also maybe the press could try to get the information as part of a news story or something?[/QUOTE]Does any country have such a law? Sounds quite strange if one had. And it would have absolutely nothing to do with freedom of the press.

[QUOTE=RogueNation;2104362]That's exactly the point. It has been discussed before. Some clubs are enforcing CBJ. So there are consequences for us mongers.[/QUOTE]From a manager pov, there are several negative consequences to balance: loss of business is a massive negative consequence. He is paid to run the club and maximize the profits. Losing girls is another. Unwanted attention and fines from law enforcement is another.

If manager realizes that enforcement is not severe and if other clubs are cheating and hence the said club is losing customer traffic, even a strict manager can't hold out for too long. If the club loses guest traffic, over time they will also lose girls who will go where the male guests are.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2105043]From a manager pov, there are several negative consequences to balance: loss of business is a massive negative consequence. He is paid to run the club and maximize the profits. Losing girls is another. Unwanted attention and fines from law enforcement is another.

If manager realizes that enforcement is not severe and if other clubs are cheating and hence the said club is losing customer traffic, even a strict manager can't hold out for too long. If the club loses guest traffic, over time they will also lose girls who will go where the male guests are.[/QUOTE]Correct and that is why Shark is lazy with the implementation of the new law, on opposite World seems to be more proactive.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2105043]From a manager pov, there are several negative consequences to balance: loss of business is a massive negative consequence. He is paid to run the club and maximize the profits. Losing girls is another. Unwanted attention and fines from law enforcement is another.

If manager realizes that enforcement is not severe and if other clubs are cheating and hence the said club is losing customer traffic, even a strict manager can't hold out for too long. If the club loses guest traffic, over time they will also lose girls who will go where the male guests are.[/QUOTE]Isn't this what is partly happening at World? At Oase and Sharks, I keep meeting girls who "used to work at World. " And, if not for its location within Frankfurt city limits, MH would be more under pressure.

[QUOTE=Ortos;2105078]Isn't this what is partly happening at World? At Oase and Sharks, I keep meeting girls who "used to work at World. " And, if not for its location within Frankfurt city limits, MH would be more under pressure.[/QUOTE]Could be one explanation but not the only one, we see less and less german mongers and most of them are getting older so less rooms, World is too far from the airport or even Frankfurt city center to be able to attract a significant number of young tourists with limited budget because it is too expensive to go there if you don't drive your own car, Shark and Oase business are also suffering a bit in the recent months. Is there enough market for so many big clubs in Frankfurt area.

[QUOTE=Ortos;2105078]Isn't this what is partly happening at World? At Oase and Sharks, I keep meeting girls who "used to work at World. " And, if not for its location within Frankfurt city limits, MH would be more under pressure.[/QUOTE]Yes, agree. Some members here are saying "I agree that cops won't break into the rooms and catch guys and girls in the act, this BBBJ violation is essentially unprovable in the court, *but* at the same time some xyz club manager will enforce it himself and kick out girls (and guys) who are rumored to be partaking this sex act".

But why would he? Some managers may be initially more risk averse than others, but in time if the law enforcement is not coming down on these clubs, they will stop being hard asses because by then they are losing business to other clubs. The club owner / investors are sure to be asking these managers "why is the club across the town making money and why am I not?

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2105115]Yes, agree. Some members here are saying "I agree that cops won't break into the rooms and catch guys and girls in the act, this BBBJ violation is essentially unprovable in the court, *but* at the same time some xyz club manager will enforce it himself and kick out girls (and guys) who are rumored to be partaking this sex act".

But why would he? Some managers may be initially more risk averse than others, but in time if the law enforcement is not coming down on these clubs, they will stop being hard asses because by then they are losing business to other clubs. The club owner / investors are sure to be asking these managers "why is the club across the town making money and why am I not?[/QUOTE]The new law is taking place with more and more power, many mongers at oase, World, or Manhattan are only getting CBJ.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2105115]Yes, agree. Some members here are saying "I agree that cops won't break into the rooms and catch guys and girls in the act, this BBBJ violation is essentially unprovable in the court, *but* at the same time some xyz club manager will enforce it himself and kick out girls (and guys) who are rumored to be partaking this sex act".

But why would he? Some managers may be initially more risk averse than others, but in time if the law enforcement is not coming down on these clubs, they will stop being hard asses because by then they are losing business to other clubs. The club owner / investors are sure to be asking these managers "why is the club across the town making money and why am I not?[/QUOTE]After just spending a week in NRW. I can confirm with 100% certainty that this so-called "BBBJ ban", that everyone hon this forum seems so obsessed about, has had near zero impact on the services I received. I have visited 6 different FKK clubs and sessioned with a dozen or so girls. Not a single one insisted on CBF, I repeat. Not one. The worst thing that happened. One girl asked if I "preferred covered or uncovered BJ". (hmm, good question! And another asked me not to CIM (I wasn't about to anyway). But other than that. No difference from my previous visit 1. 5 years ago. Now, it could be due to me being relatively young and not gross looking, but I doubt I was all that special.

I did notice a couple of clubs posted banners proclaiming that "condoms are required", or something to that affect. (I don't read German). But that's just paying lip service to the new regulations, with no discernible affect on what goes on in the room. In other words. Exactly what one would expect from a "law" like this.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2105043]From a manager pov, there are several negative consequences to balance: loss of business is a massive negative consequence. He is paid to run the club and maximize the profits. Losing girls is another. Unwanted attention and fines from law enforcement is another.

If manager realizes that enforcement is not severe and if other clubs are cheating and hence the said club is losing customer traffic, even a strict manager can't hold out for too long. If the club loses guest traffic, over time they will also lose girls who will go where the male guests are.[/QUOTE]This has happened at one of the more remote clubs at NRW. The first month only CBJ. Then second month, WGs were asking 10 EUR extra. Now back to pre-July 1st pricing. I've only tried two WGs at this club. But yes the changes were precipitated by drop in traffic. As far as I know, it wasn't much reported. I was following the developments via word-of-mouth.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2105115]Yes, agree. Some members here are saying "I agree that cops won't break into the rooms and catch guys and girls in the act, this BBBJ violation is essentially unprovable in the court, *but* at the same time some xyz club manager will enforce it himself and kick out girls (and guys) who are rumored to be partaking this sex act".
[/QUOTE]Yes, unprovable in court, assuming the BBBJ happens behind closed doors. As Neurosynth says, "he said she said" is not sufficient in courts of law, thus no negative consequences should ever fall upon male customers in the form of fines and arrests.

However, hearsay rumors, depending on their severity, could result in increased monitoring and raids by law enforcement (negative consequence for club). Hearsay rumors could also result in WGs being banned from clubs (negative consequence for WG). In both of these cases, proof is not necessary. Suspicion and "he said she said" is sufficient.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2105115]
But why would he? Some managers may be initially more risk averse than others, but in time if the law enforcement is not coming down on these clubs, they will stop being hard asses because by then they are losing business to other clubs. The club owner / investors are sure to be asking these managers "why is the club across the town making money and why am I not?[/QUOTE]That is the hope, that the market corrects what has been a negative consequence for us mongers. But some clubs seem to be more openly associated with criminal organizations, so some would say that the club has other goals besides simply money derived via customer traffic. Last year at one NL club, Dutch SWAT teams knocked down doors, guns drawn like they were looking for Bin Laden. Every customer, staff, and WG had their possessions searched. Every customer was interviewed and expected to remember what dominations of notes they handed over to reception and to the WGs. This operation probably cost taxpayers millions of EUR.

Our stance as mongers is that certain club managers are overreacting and too risk-averse. But perhaps they just want to give the authorities zero reason to peek behind the curtains.

[QUOTE=PumDiPum;2104970]Pistons,

To your question why they needed a lawyer.

Only just to be prepared. I think that should not be a disadvantage.

It's one thing telling lies to family, friends, club managers, customers and that's what I like the most, telling lies to boyfriend or husband. But telling the authorities the right lies is quite another matter.

Imagine the 20 year old young woman somewhere from Eastern Europe. Speaks very little German or English and should then attend the counseling interview without help and instructions. (Despite the interpreter who is called in).

What should she tell during the consultation? ".[/QUOTE]Using your logic, I would need an attorney to get a drivers license. Romanians are allowed to work in Germany and prostitution is not illegal. Generally, you need an attorney of you are breaking a law- not following it. The law is to protect the girls. Sure, a girl may "lie" that she is working on her own volition when she is actually controlled, but no authority would punish her for the lie.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2105199]Yes, unprovable in court, assuming the BBBJ happens behind closed doors. As Neurosynth says, "he said she said" is not sufficient in courts of law, thus no negative consequences should ever fall upon male customers in the form of fines and arrests.

However, hearsay rumors, depending on their severity, could result in increased monitoring and raids by law enforcement (negative consequence for club). Hearsay rumors could also result in WGs being banned from clubs (negative consequence for WG). In both of these cases, proof is not necessary. Suspicion and "he said she said" is sufficient.

That is the hope, that the market corrects what has been a negative consequence for us mongers. But some clubs seem to be more openly associated with criminal organizations, so some would say that the club has other goals besides simply money derived via customer traffic. Last year at one NL club, Dutch SWAT teams knocked down doors, guns drawn like they were looking for Bin Laden. Every customer, staff, and WG had their possessions searched. Every customer was interviewed and expected to remember what dominations of notes they handed over to reception and to the WGs. This operation probably cost taxpayers millions of EUR.

Our stance as mongers is that certain club managers are overreacting and too risk-averse. But perhaps they just want to give the authorities zero reason to peek behind the curtains.[/QUOTE]I don't believe there will be ever a trial for a monger from a big FKK, the risk is 0, again the main target of the new law is to reduce the offer and therefore the demand, World and menhaden and Finca and many brothel in the RLD of Frankfurt belong to the HA Frankfurt chapter, Artemis to the HA chapter Berlin. Oase seems to have some link with the Italian.