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[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2200706]McA sorry, your comments are normally sensible but here you are conflating two different things.

The phenomenon in FKK is entirely different. To the extent full service effectively costs x and official rate is 50, mongers who want the full service pay the difference of x-50 as the tip. If one pays just 50, only partial service is received. That is just economic reality, and not a degenerative tipping practice.[/QUOTE]The tone of your original post, as I interpreted, seemed to indicate that there is something disingenuous (maybe even unscrupulous) about the American tipping system I. E. "more than what's indicated on the rate card". The use of the word "degenerative" also carries a negative connotation. So I will amend my previous post to be more clear. Rather than trying to compare two different things, I will simply say both of these two different things can be characterized as follows: "degenerative" and "more than what's indicated on the rate card".

Inflation happens at restaurants, yes. BUT they change their menu prices to reflect that. The fact that prices have increased is completely transparent to the customer! Essentially what certain WGs do at certain clubs, would be analogous to restaurant advertising a 400 g steak for 20 EUR, but bringing you out a 200 g steak for 20 EUR, then asking for a tip.

I have no issues with letting free market dictate. I would have absolutely no problem if a WG were to deny me service for the following reasons: (1) "My friend told me you are a 50 EUR guy" or (2) "Last time you only gave me 50 EUR". Those are all acceptable. Whats inexcusable to me is when the WGs lure men into the room, force a customer to pick a price tier, then deliberately give shitty service if the customer picks the lowest tier. If that is their intention, then the WG should just say "If you only want to pay 50 then I will only give you 15 minutes, do you still want to stay?

With regards to your statement that dishes in America are not kept artificially low, one CNBC author seems to disagree:

"So what if more American restaurants followed suit (Tokyo) and started to pay waiters and waitresses a salary? First, the obvious: Menu prices would be higher. Without tipping, restaurants would be forced to raise the price of dishes. " [URL]https://www.cnbc.com/id/100978743[/URL].

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2200997]If that is their intention, then the WG should just say "If you only want to pay 50 then I will only give you 15 minutes, do you still want to stay?
[/QUOTE]Just one caveat, some clubs have "club rules" that prohibit a girl from doing just that. Therefore, in the mind of the girl, she has no alternative other than to play the games she plays, because she cannot quote non-standard prices or times for standard services.

Rather, she can only charge extra for non-standard services and vary her service levels. Obviously, depends on the club she is in. In some clubs, it is not a rule per se imposed on the girl, but the so-called "rule" can nevertheless manifest itself in disputes at Reception where Reception will side with the customer regarding non-standard pricing / times for standard services.

Interesting that the millennials tip the lowest of all age groups according to recent surveys. Millennials disdain for tipping may account for the trend of opening up more counter-style service restaurants at the hip new places, like Shake Shack, etc.

[URL]https://www.nbcnews.com/better/business/dollars-sense-why-are-millennials-tipping-less-older-generations-ncna886966[/URL]

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2200997]




With regards to your statement that dishes in America are not kept artificially low, one CNBC author seems to disagree:




.[/QUOTE]That is not what I said. You should read again.

I said tipping is independent of restaurant prices.

I quite agree with the CNBC link, and in any case it is obvious. Yes, prices would be higher if tipping is removed, sure. My point is indeed that actual price is being obscured by tipping, and it would far more optimal to have a transparent pricing, inclusive of all service charges (at this point, tipping is nothing more than a service charge and many restaurants directly charge 18% or higher if there are 4+ people in a party — and then sneakily leave a line on the credit card bill for a tip..at least a few times, I did not pay attention and paid a tip AFTER already paying a service charge).

As for branding as degenerative both US tipping practice and girls' providing less for 50 it is your prerogative ofc, but I would slightly disagree. If the effective price has moved up over time due to inflation but is artificially kept down by the club, the girl would feel justified in providing less. Yes, it aggravates me too, but I can understand it. If we were forced to work in jobs which had zero raise in 20 years, over time we will also cut corners and provide less.

[QUOTE=BigBuddy69;2200988]Actually it was more 33% for a one hour session and 50% for a 1h30. Yet at Acapulco prices stayed the same and girls are happy about that since the entrance is really cheaper.[/QUOTE][blue][Deleted by Admin][/blue] Concerning the inflation, service levels, fair market economy, etc. , I would like point out a couple things. If a WG at a club and is suffering slow business, the other WGs in that club will prevent her from running "Black Friday" specials, also known as discounts to move financials from the negative to the positive side of the balance line. They will allow them to run gimmicks such as "multiple orgasms" even accompanied with "squirting", but they will all talk negative about the increased interest in such an ingeneous WG. Realistically, there is a WG "mafia" controlled by them and their managers. The only way to counter this is by the mongers vetoing the requested prices by withholding money from the WGs and the clubs. Unfortunately, the market price in FKK / Sauna Clubs is now being driven by tourists in many clubs, similar to land prices in lower economic zones such as Croatia, Bulgaria, Romania and Greece. At some point the prices increase beyond affordability of the the locals and the economic model becomes purely tourist based, the resolve to battle to support pro prostitution legislation decreases and the system as we know it declines. I can honestly say that I've witnessed much of this since starting to visit Sauna Clubs in 2008. I was one of a few tourists in the clubs. At that time if the locals mongers found out a tourist was over paying they would complain to reception who wouldn't let him back in. This balance has shifted to where now, in many clubs the tourist mongers outnumber the local mongers so the clubs tolerate the touristic behaviors. A few clubs, like Aca Velbert, are still heavily dominated by local mongers. Here you see much less price / quality manipulation by the ladies. It does fall apart occasionally when a tourist does visit and convinces their favorite girl in all of FKK land to transfer to their favorite club where she can make so much more money.

[QUOTE=UltraHappy;2201019]Just one caveat, some clubs have "club rules" that prohibit a girl from doing just that. Therefore, in the mind of the girl, she has no alternative other than to play the games she plays, because she cannot quote non-standard prices or times for standard services.

Rather, she can only charge extra for non-standard services and vary her service levels. Obviously, depends on the club she is in. In some clubs, it is not a rule per se imposed on the girl, but the so-called "rule" can nevertheless manifest itself in disputes at Reception where Reception will side with the customer regarding non-standard pricing / times for standard services.[/QUOTE]This is the capitalism vs socialism argument. With uniform pricing, it generates more business for everyone. However, the better girls who could charge more are disadvantaged. The laws say the club cannot set prices. So, each girl can quote their own. But girls that do not adhere to standard pricing will be shunned by some punters and will ruin a clubs reputation. A club should let girls quote different prices in advance, but if the customer complains, they should be kicked out. If you charge more, you better be worth it.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2200706]McA sorry, your comments are normally sensible but here you are conflating two different things. You are mixing up prices going up in FKKs (which they have been, effectively) with the bad practice of forced tipping in the US.

In US, you could very well have price inflation *and* you still need to tip. Tipping did not happen here because prices were kept artificially low. Since tipping is a percent of the sale, the more inflation in the sale prices tip also increases accordingly.

Tipping became the norm because employers did not pay the correct market wage to their employees and offloaded a portion of the wage onto customers in a very sneaky way. Tipping now induces guilt ("got to tip them because they don't get paid" shame ("tip them Cheapo!) and fear (of being branded a bad tipper). One should feel pleasure when tipping (good service received, and happiness that you rewarded someone for a job well done), but instead it induces negative emotions..[/QUOTE]Only partially correct. Tipping is cultural. We tip because we are expected to and feel we will be shunned if we do not. Society sets the level and the situation. There are many service industries where we do not tip. We do not tip professionals even if their pay is low. Right now, hotel maids who were not tipped are transitioning to a tipping culture. There are many jobs where tipping is expected but not so culturally strong. So, people get away without tipping. For example, valet parking.

[URL]http://dailycaller.com/2018/07/12/trump-immigration-changed-fabric-europe/[/URL]

[QUOTE=Chongmal;2201063]Realistically, there is a WG "mafia" controlled by them and their managers. [/QUOTE]Salaam Chongmal. Yes, hard to escape this conclusion if you notice girls using exactly the same tactics inside the rooms. If you see it too often, it makes you feel you are not dealing with an individual but an army. Who wants to have sex with an army?

But I would like to point out this situation is not inevitable, even with the tourist invasion. It would not necessarily be the case if FKKs had been careful to keep ethnically diverse lineups. And still, to escape the mafia it helps to choose "outsider" WGs.

[QUOTE=Akibono;2201074]Only partially correct. Tipping is cultural. We tip because we are expected to and feel we will be shunned if we do not. Society sets the level and the situation. There are many service industries where we do not tip. We do not tip professionals even if their pay is low. Right now, hotel maids who were not tipped are transitioning to a tipping culture. There are many jobs where tipping is expected but not so culturally strong. So, people get away without tipping. For example, valet parking.[/QUOTE]Sure, I did not say tipping is not cultural. But the culture developed over time. Google search pulls up a bunch of articles which show that tipping was actually brought to US from Europe about a hundred years ago. Over time, the practice got entrenched. Yes, that creates inertia or culture if you will, and it will take just as much time to get rid of it as it took for this practice to get entrenched. But as UH provided links, there are some regions and demographics where tipping may be losing its allure and we will see if we can evolve into a system where tipping is genuinely a reward system for outstanding service and every employee is paid fair wages by the employer regardless of tipping.

"We do not tip professionals even if their pay is low".

It is not about low pay, but paying below minimum federal wage. That's the big difference when it comes to tipping dominated industries.

[URL]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/18/i-dare-you-to-read-this-and-still-feel-ok-about-tipping-in-the-united-states/[/URL]

Besides Babylon, any other decent clubs has the FKK rule for the ladies?

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2201059]As for branding as degenerative both US tipping practice and girls' providing less for 50 it is your prerogative ofc, but I would slightly disagree. If the effective price has moved up over time due to inflation but is artificially kept down by the club, the girl would feel justified in providing less. Yes, it aggravates me too, but I can understand it. If we were forced to work in jobs which had zero raise in 20 years, over time we will also cut corners and provide less.[/QUOTE]Majority of ISGers make decent money because they are lucky enough to be in high-demand professions where there is a shortage of workers. So perhaps some of you think, "Prices of goods and services have went up in the 20-30 years since I entered working age, and my salary has increased faster than the prices of goods and services in my country". But you guys are top ten percent earners in the rich nations where you live. This is not the case for majority of workers.

"Wage stagnation is a problem for broad swathes of the USA Population, not just those workers without a post-secondary education. The EPI found that in 2013, young college graduates' real hourly wages were lower than they were in the 1990's. For comparison, the average real hourly wage of a young college graduate (regardless of gender) was $18.00 in 1998, while in 2013 it was $16.99. However, manufacturing and production workers have been the worst affected group of American workers. Blue-collar manufacturing workers have seen their wages dropping by 4. 4% from 2003 to 2013, a rate of decline three times that of the average USA Worker. " [URL]https://globalriskinsights.com/2018/01/us-economy-workers-dilemma-declining-wages/[/URL].

"In America, median wages have been stagnant for more than 40 years. In Japan and Germany, it's been 20 years without a pay rise. " [URL]https://www.bbc.com/news/business-35709058[/URL].

The FKK clubs do not keep prices artificially low. The entirety of the German paid sex scene keeps prices low. FKK clubs are priced to compete with alternatives. If FKK girls don't like the 50 EUR /30 min rates that the club imposes on them, they are free to try their luck elsewhere as a 200 EUR per hour escort. My guess is they know they would get extremely low volume of customers. Because paid sex is so cheap in Germany. They'd truly have to stand out, perhaps Victoria Secret level to succeed in high price escort pool

OK, it is not like we are all billionaires here and detached from the reality of working folks. We are all bourgeoise here if not the proletariat.

The numbers you point out in your examples and links McA are are "real wages". Which means they are adjusting for inflation. In FKK, the 50 E has been constant, and that is a nominal amount. Not real.

[URL]https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/inflation-cpi[/URL]

German CPI has been low but barring a couple of short periods, is still positive inflation.

[URL]https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/wage-growth[/URL]

As are the German wages. And notice, the link shows real wages.

And these are countrynwide numbers, not some cherry picked sectors.

As for the argument that girls better like the 50 E or else they can take a hike and go work in the red light district well, they are not doing that. They stayed in the clubs, and have increased their effective wages and still getting enough business. I am not advocating for a price increase for the FKK girls, I am merely pointing out that they do have enough pricing power and have been able to increase their true effective prices already (by cutting back on services, time, etc and still paid 50 E).

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2201300]




The FKK clubs do not keep prices artificially low. The entirety of the German paid sex scene keeps prices low. FKK clubs are priced to compete with alternatives. If FKK girls don't like the 50 EUR /30 min rates that the club imposes on them, they are free to try their luck elsewhere as a 200 EUR per hour escort. My guess is they know they would get extremely low volume of customers. Because paid sex is so cheap in Germany. They'd truly have to stand out, perhaps Victoria Secret level to succeed in high price escort pool[/QUOTE]A month or two ago, we had extensive discussions and I thought we generally agreed that effective prices in FKK clubs have appreciated for the years. Do you no longer think that is true? Or are you saying effective prices went up only in FKK clubs but have stayed stable at a lower level outside the clubs (in RLD, street corner,.)?

If prices are lower outside the FKK clubs and high inside, then FKKs would be losing market share and customers. If that is not happening, then it means FKK prices even after they have gone up effectively are not that high because they offer a superior product which their customers value.

[QUOTE=JennyKk;2201273]Besides Babylon, any other decent clubs has the FKK rule for the ladies?[/QUOTE]Also legendary Bernds, and very beautiful, small, saunaclub Venus where You can also have public sex in lounge upstairs or in kino downstairs, but couldn't find any girl to make me dream. You can see girls dancing at Venus.

Same at Freudenhaus Dortmund, not a FKK, but a very beautiful club. Girls and even staff couldn't understand I didn't go to room, but I enjoyed a good diner with excellent beans, like in UK or Dubaï for breakfast, then hot chocolate watching Wimbledon. No girl to make me dream, no beauty like Alina found at Bahama Maintal, when difficult for me to find at big Sharks or Samya, so when I find one, I m so happy and repeat with her as long it works, I marry for the best and leave for the worst. FKK life.