General Info

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2203313]Sayyid Pistons: it's not because the market is saturated that there are no new FKKs. It's because in 2017, the German government sent a big signal that it is hostile to FKKs. It increased raids, restricted immigration, imposed registration, etc. No sane moneymaker would want to start an FKK in this adverse legal climate.

Time for mongers to get the message and move on. Evolution is about adaptation and migration.[/QUOTE]I understand your statement about the German government sending a big signal that it is hostile toward FKKs, but I can also see things slightly from the governments viewpoint. Since their inception, FKK / Sauna Clubs have operated largely outside the realm of legal businesses. No regular industry; bar, restaurant, construction, etc. Would have been allowed to so openly operate outside the law for numerous years. The entire BBBJ section of the law is different. I know as an immigrant worker in Europe, I was required to register with the city, region and country. I also had to register with a professional guild. The company I helped establis and worked for had to register and undergo compliance reviews. I think the only reason the clubs were allowed such a long free run was they were not so numerous and many government officials were among the clients. I feel the rapid expansion of the clubs and heavy involvement of criminal elements in ownership and control of clubs forced government officials to take steps to bring about compliance on an equal level with other legit businesses.

One part of it may be that management has been told not to intervene with the girls as much as before too. So the girls aren't getting proper training at customer retention.

I do however know that many girls read this forum, so perhaps they might want to read this article too:

[URL]https://www.quicktapsurvey.com/blog/3-customer-service-tips-to-turn-return-customers-into-repeat-customers/[/URL]

And the last problem I see is that at our point in time, 50 really is too cheap and 100 really is too high given inflation, spending power and market competition. But girls don't want to settle in the middle at 60 or 70 (because small notes are worthless? And nothing is worse than hustling about money if you want a repeat customer. So prices should be static and guys should know before entering and never have to discuss it with the girls. As soon as money is brought up in the conversation, alarm bells are ringing in the heads of every guy there, and negative impulses arise.

As an ex sales person myself with several years of experiences in it, I know that every negative impulse you give takes three times as long to fix. You need 3 positive impulses to fix any negative impulse. And every impulse is a price driving force. So as soon as you mention 'money', or word 'extra' from the girl (the guy should know about 'extra' policies when entering, and never discuss it with the girl) the willingness to pay falls, and the chances of having a return or repeat customer falls even lower. Right before a sale is locked, it is the worst time in the world to come with a negative impulse. So why in the world is this happening? Why is money brought up? Lack or experience among the girls, or poor training and knowledge is my only guess.

Lastly, the prices for 'extras' sounds out of touch. Who would pay 50 or even 30 extra for fingering? Who would pay 50 or even 30 extra for kissing and then see that only the bad kissers are the ones not including it for free. Or anal or BBBJ or whatever they try. An extra is never +100% or even +60% of the base price. An extra is normally +20% for single items, or maximum +40% for full extra bundles of 3-4 added items. This is plain micro economics to add maximum income. And if the girls really are there for maximising the income (as some openly suggest), then why don't they follow these simple rules?

[QUOTE=Pistons;2203270]- Obesity is going up, and the average man don't exercise enough. Especially cardio. Before my latest venture into FKK land for me, I did some more cardio than I have done for some years. It resulted in me averaging 4 sessions a day for the first 4 days. And I had no issues finishing every time. On previous visits with less cardio, I have fallen down to 2/3 finishers.[/QUOTE]How much cardio are you doing? I think you are spot on. My refractory period is terrible. I know every single trick in the book but I am not able to solve it. I think it's part genetic, part fitness condition.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2203632]One part of it may be that management has been told not to intervene with the girls as much as before too. So the girls aren't getting proper training at customer retention.[/QUOTE]There's never been any customer retention training" for the girls. Girls are brought into the club, dumped there to make money. That's the only guideline. Make as much money as possible. Then they develop a strategy to achieve that. One way is good service at the standard rate to get repeat business. Another one is to make guys fall for you and milk them as good as you can. Or just try to rip guys (preferably tourists) off and take as much money as possible in a session with lousy service knowing the guy will never repeat and move on to the next victim.

Some clubs have set clear rules, others haven't. The effect of the new law is not as strong as members here might think.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2203632]Lastly, the prices for 'extras' sounds out of touch. Who would pay 50 or even 30 extra for fingering? Who would pay 50 or even 30 extra for kissing and then see that only the bad kissers are the ones not including it for free. Or anal or BBBJ or whatever they try. An extra is never +100% or even +60% of the base price. An extra is normally +20% for single items, or maximum +40% for full extra bundles of 3-4 added items. This is plain micro economics to add maximum income. And if the girls really are there for maximising the income (as some openly suggest), then why don't they follow these simple rules?[/QUOTE]Salaam Pistons, I totally agree. The girls do not act in their own economic self-interest at all.

In fact I would go further and abolish the concept of "extras" entirely. There is just too much cheating and ill will around the concept. Customers don't come back when upselling occurs, so there is a huge loss of income for the girls. It's a hidden loss, so that's why it continues. The short-term gains of upselling are more visible and give a rush of pleasure like winning the lottery on those rare occasions they are successful, so girls can get hooked on it. But those gains are erased ten times over by the loss in repeat business.

Maybe there are a couple of things that could legitimately be called extras like watersp0 rts and BDSM, but it would be safer to have these in a different type of session entirely.

[QUOTE=SaratogaX;2203746]How much cardio are you doing? I think you are spot on. My refractory period is terrible. I know every single trick in the book but I am not able to solve it. I think it's part genetic, part fitness condition.[/QUOTE]To recover faster, no smoke, nor alcohol, but sport and being fit. If club have a swimming pool, swimming is good because relaxing, playing football at Oase or LR is also good.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2203895]Salaam Pistons, I totally agree. The girls do not act in their own economic self-interest at all.

.....Customers don't come back when upselling occurs, so there is a huge loss of income for the girls. It's a hidden loss, so that's why it continues. The short-term gains of upselling are more visible and give a rush of pleasure like winning the lottery on those rare occasions they are successful, so girls can get hooked on it. But those gains are erased ten times over by the loss in repeat business.

[/QUOTE]Perfectly put. I know that by upselling you mean charging for extras which should be part of a basic service, and not offering to sell services which were never any part of basic service (as you suggest, [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord117][CodeWord117][/url], fisting, SM and so on).

Unfortunately in some clubs clients have allowed the girls to succeed to a large degree. And in these places the hidden loss probably become much less. Maybe I am a weirdo, but I know that in my case the hidden loss to the girls can be quantified as being about 4000 euros this year so far

Pistons, as far as I can make out Oase management is encouraging girls to offer only suck and fuck for 50, so I doubt they will intervene, especially as the club seems to be on a high

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2203895]Salaam Pistons, I totally agree. The girls do not act in their own economic self-interest at all.

In fact I would go further and abolish the concept of "extras" entirely. There is just too much cheating and ill will around the concept. Customers don't come back when upselling occurs, so there is a huge loss of income for the girls. It's a hidden loss, so that's why it continues. The short-term gains of upselling are more visible and give a rush of pleasure like winning the lottery on those rare occasions they are successful, so girls can get hooked on it. But those gains are erased ten times over by the loss in repeat business.

Maybe there are a couple of things that could legitimately be called extras like watersp0 rts and BDSM, but it would be safer to have these in a different type of session entirely.[/QUOTE]Most of the girls are not the queen of strategic marketing, they just follow their basic instinct sometimes under negative influence of alcohol, drug, pimp. But by visiting prostitutes are we not also following our basic instincts.

Most of the girls have low education, usually one of the parents is dead, or they are divorced, some of them are pretty but don t expect too much from them. If the girls were clever they will never work in a club or a brothel, may be we should never forget this point, advice some of you to meet real German escorts, personally more than 100, to really feel the difference of level and ask those escorts if they will work in a FKK club.

[QUOTE=SaratogaX;2203746]How much cardio are you doing? I think you are spot on. My refractory period is terrible. I know every single trick in the book but I am not able to solve it. I think it's part genetic, part fitness condition.[/QUOTE]Well, I never do hard cardio more than 20 minutes at a time (max length of most sex sessions), but try to do some gym 5 times a week with varying amounts of cardio. But my 20 minute runs is what I added these past months that I feel did the trick. Stair climbs in particular, but I hear spinning can give good results too. Not sure how running works as you don't lift your knees high enough. The thighs are important for sex after all.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2203632]One part of it may be that management has been told not to intervene with the girls as much as before too. So the girls aren't getting proper training at customer retention.

I do however know that many girls read this forum, so perhaps they might want to read this article too:

[URL]https://www.quicktapsurvey.com/blog/3-customer-service-tips-to-turn-return-customers-into-repeat-customers/[/URL]

And the last problem I see is that at our point in time, 50 really is too cheap and 100 really is too high given inflation, spending power and market competition. But girls don't want to settle in the middle at 60 or 70 (because small notes are worthless? And nothing is worse than hustling about money if you want a repeat customer. So prices should be static and guys should know before entering and never have to discuss it with the girls. As soon as money is brought up in the conversation, alarm bells are ringing in the heads of every guy there, and negative impulses arise.

As an ex sales person myself with several years of experiences in it, I know that every negative impulse you give takes three times as long to fix. You need 3 positive impulses to fix any negative impulse. And every impulse is a price driving force. So as soon as you mention 'money', or word 'extra' from the girl (the guy should know about 'extra' policies when entering, and never discuss it with the girl) the willingness to pay falls, and the chances of having a return or repeat customer falls even lower. Right before a sale is locked, it is the worst time in the world to come with a negative impulse. So why in the world is this happening? Why is money brought up? Lack or experience among the girls, or poor training and knowledge is my only guess.

Lastly, the prices for 'extras' sounds out of touch. Who would pay 50 or even 30 extra for fingering? Who would pay 50 or even 30 extra for kissing and then see that only the bad kissers are the ones not including it for free. Or anal or BBBJ or whatever they try. An extra is never +100% or even +60% of the base price. An extra is normally +20% for single items, or maximum +40% for full extra bundles of 3-4 added items. This is plain micro economics to add maximum income. And if the girls really are there for maximising the income (as some openly suggest), then why don't they follow these simple rules?[/QUOTE]Good points! Well articulated.

I think one explanation, as RN mentioned, is that these girls are not well trained sales people looking out for maximization of long term earnings, but looking to take as much as possible in the immediate future from many punters. And they don't have any mentors to tell them differently. If anything, they learn from other girls who were there before and behave the same exact way.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2203980]Well, I never do hard cardio more than 20 minutes at a time (max length of most sex sessions), but try to do some gym 5 times a week with varying amounts of cardio. But my 20 minute runs is what I added these past months that I feel did the trick. Stair climbs in particular, but I hear spinning can give good results too. Not sure how running works as you don't lift your knees high enough. The thighs are important for sex after all.[/QUOTE]I have for the last three weeks in preparation for Man vs Condom II been using the elliptical machine 5 times a week for 60 min and doing laps in the pool for 30-60 minutes as well too cool off (95-100 every fucking day here!) I dropped 5 pounds and the other night put things to a test and paid 80 bucks for a covered blow job / covered sex girl (prepare for the worst hope for the best, kind of like a batter in the on deck circle weighing his bat down before stepping up to the plate) and the system seems to be working better than before. Temperatures in Frankfurt the next two weeks look brutal and Day Care's AirCon is opening the front and back door hoping for wind so I may end up in Air Conditioned clubs as it is no fun sitting in sweat and showering in puddles of fungi.

Optimist, the on deck circle is where a batter stands and waits as he will be the next guy to bat and they take practice swings while he waits his turn. I hope you can understand that without needing a translation in to cricket if not the guy on deck is kind of like the guy standing in line for a girl getting fucked in a gangbang ready to shove it in when the guy in front of him finishes up. I am pretty sure that one makes sense. The guy behind the guy on deck is said to be ' in the hole. '. That being said I am sure you have been in all those situations either at bat or second or third in line!

:D

[QUOTE=RogueNation;2203858]There's never been any customer retention training" for the girls. Girls are brought into the club, dumped there to make money. That's the only guideline. Make as much money as possible. Then they develop a strategy to achieve that. One way is good service at the standard rate to get repeat business. Another one is to make guys fall for you and milk them as good as you can. Or just try to rip guys (preferably tourists) off and take as much money as possible in a session with lousy service knowing the guy will never repeat and move on to the next victim.[/QUOTE]Well, some call it club rules, others may call it customer retention training. The purpose is the same for the clubs: making more money on return customer. Some clubs did nore of it in the past, but less so now (Artemis) perhaps due to bad framing with a vile purpose on what was being done. Other clubs followed more or less. Some not at all.

The last part of the quote I made here is just an assumption. Nobody can know that a 'tourist' will never return. Travel is now so cheap that no matter where he comes from, he can return and repeat 20 times. Not to mention word of mouth, Japanese blogs or 20 internet forums which affect a potential amount of repeat sessions up to ten times larger. (This is mentioned in the blog post I linked also by the way). So the idea of scamming a tourist might have worked 20 years ago, but not in 2018. Today it is like biting your own tail.

I also do the elliptical machine, but I feel it is useless at slow pace. But you can go max 1 km on it, then 90 sec rest and another 1 km maybe 3 times. And push yourself to the max. I can average at over 22 km / h in one kilometer on it. 60 minutes on it just makes you into a marathon runner, and I don't know how good that is for sex. Your dick will be hurting after two sessions that long even if your heart will take it. But the stair climbs or spinning affects sex much better. Blood comes from the thighs, and so you want to lift your knees as high as possible during exercise.

[QUOTE=SaratogaX;2203746]How much cardio are you doing? I think you are spot on. My refractory period is terrible. I know every single trick in the book but I am not able to solve it. I think it's part genetic, part fitness condition.[/QUOTE]For me the best thing to be fit is to control our weight, for example if you are 180 high you should never be over 80 kilos, 175 and 75 kilos, second eat as less meat as possible, never drink cola, or other sweet drinks, eating as less sugar as possible, no cake, no ice cream, very few alcohol, sleeping at least 8 hours obviously no smoking. Exercise every week at least 3 times but not less than 45 minutes each time. I am 60 yo for many people I look 50, can still have 3 times sex a day without any blue pill.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2204065]Good points! Well articulated.

I think one explanation, as RN mentioned, is that these girls are not well trained sales people looking out for maximization of long term earnings, but looking to take as much as possible in the immediate future from many punters. And they don't have any mentors to tell them differently. If anything, they learn from other girls who were there before and behave the same exact way.[/QUOTE]To me it would be an interesting statistic to see the relationship between the entry price the club charges the woman compared to the amount of upselling by the women working in the club.

I was speaking to a woman who was an aggressive upseller, her asking would cost me minimum €200 per hour. I told her at her asking rates I was better off driving back to my regular area to hobby, eating €150 in petrol and a second club entry price, where I get €50/30 min sessions with all her extras included. She countered and told me that with her entry and nightly charge for a place to eat she would need five €50/30 min sessions before she made her first €15 of the day. When she had raised this to the club management she was told, many women working there are making money providing normarl services after one hour, she just needed a better approach. After a week of working there she had become an upselling queen. Another complaint she had about this club was the hands on approach by the male management and security team, taking liberties with frequent free touches and making comments that if she didn't like it they could send her on a vacation.

Some other clubs I attend with lower entry costs for both men and women, have lower rates per full 30 min sessions with DFK, BBBJ, DATY, CFS all included for €50 or less. Some clubs have a €30/20 min quicky for CBJ and CFS. I was speaking with a woman at one of these clubs and she said she was €10 in the positive after 2 x €40/30 min sessions, in a club where men rarely stay in the room after they finish even when the woman offers, so most sessions are 20 min or less. She did say a couple women complained about how much time she spent talking with me outside the room. I asked her about the hands on approach and she said, the male staff never touches any of the women. She included that they also made it clear that male clients should not me groping and touching outside of the paid session and she has been told on multiple occasions to notify them if a client or other staff member gets out of control. She told me she had worked at a club with nicer facilities, where two of the male managers, their friends and employees who worked in capacities outside the clubs all felt entitled to free access. She said she never expected she would like working at what appeared to be a much lesser club but that she was much happier feeling more respecting.