General Info

I would like ot welcome marlow to the forum.

Finally we have a second person like CBGB, who is very confident in what he believes even if it is a whole crock of shit!

1) The average daily fee at an FKK is not 60€. In the 3 clubs around frankfurt it is, as well as the bavarian clubs, and Villa in Hannover, but the vast majority of clubs have much lower fee's for the girls. Shieferhof is 18€ a day, PHG, goldentime & Samya are all at the 100€ a week rate, while Wildenrath is at 15€ a day. The 15-35€ a day rate is the norm for the vast majority of FKK clubs that exist.

2) I did not know that two clubs with the same name count as many FKK clubs. Because there are only 2 owned by the Hell's Angels, and that is world 1&2 and that is well known, and the presence of them is seen everywhere. The only person that can really be considered owning "many" clubs would be the guy known as "the Blindman" who owns all the red Carpet clubs, putting him as the owner of about 12 clubs. Other than that i don't know anyone who has more than 4 real FKK's, adn even that guy (cocoon, tropicana, Ali Baba) is out of the country. there are quite a few who have 2-3 clubs.

3) this 500€ recruitment fee is a bunch of crap. Clubs do have contacts who help them recruit, and sometimes there really is the feeling of "a bus full of new girls" coming into a club. But the vast majority of talent at a club is held and recruited through simple ads in the papers.

Trust me, i know a bunch of girls from a bunch of clubs quite well personally. I know the whole story of a number of girls who have been trafficked and pimped and the whole thing. But you are manipulating facts just as poorly as any sensationalist report does.

Most pimping is psychological. The HA's and some of the albanians who really have more than 10 girls running are exceptions, but a tonne fo pimps are more or less manager boyfriends, who have 1-4 girls working for them, and they have no inclination to harm them should they leave. In my experience more german girls let themselves be pimped than the foreigners.

When they had a more difficult time organizing papers it wa s a bit of a different matter, but now it is easier for them to get decent papers, at least long enough for 3 month stints.


And if it were 500€, that ois hardly worth the effort it takes to get a girl into germany. The fee you used to get if you went into a fake marriage was the equivalent of 5000€, but not 500.

And the method of coercion that you describe, of not letting the girl come back, is one that ois used in any job. If i decide to quit my job without notice to go work for the competition every boss in the world would say, "If you go there, you're not welcome back here"

That is what clubs tend to say to girls they don't want to lose, but if the girl goes, there isn't much they would do. If the girl has any class about the way she leaves, and if she doesn't really just head to the clubs main competition then I have seen a lot of travelling around and being welcomed back with oopen arms.

Club owners and managers know the girls want to make some money, and being a new girl somewhere else always means bigger paychecks for a while, so they understand.

Of course when world opened the Oase and Atlantis people said, "if you work there, you can't come back here" but that is normal if you have a new competitor.

I'll agree with you on the drugs front, but there are clubs where it is a huge problem and ones where it is a little problem. Babylon was famous for all the girls really hitting the coke hard. I find GT has way too many girls and customers on hard drugs. There are other clubs where you get a distinct hash smell coming out of a room or two, but not so many mirrors being needed.

and not all club owners and mangers are crooks. I know some who I really respect. i know others i think are abhorrent. If i see what the manager of Wildenrath is doing for Nici (that Pam anderson type girl) during her struggle with Cancer (Driving her to and from her chemo treatments) and the way he helps girls get off drugs and all sorts of other stuff I would rather not mention, they are far from being crooks.

there is so much more that is BS in your post, but it si late and i want to get to sleep.

Peter,

Thank you for taking the trouble to add a differeniated view on the topic.

Regards,

Globus

Wow, does the man protest too much or what!

Accused of talking a lot of bullshit – ooh you are terrible!

Dear Peter, you are trying to convince me that all these club owners are nice guys helping out. I don't believe it. The guy who owns Bernd's having met him I am not keen to meet again. His wife is great, and I feel sorry for her. The man who used to own Sudbad is a nice guy, but he is old school Cologne puff owner.

If these men are all above board nice guys then pray tell me why Atlantis was raided, why World was raided, Oase was raided, why a host of other clubs were raided and accused of tax evasion and drug dealing and trafficking? Explain to the great public why bordello owners get shot on their doorsteps, why a gang of Hell’s Angels went to prison in Hamburg? Please, we are dealing with human nature here in a business where there is no customer relations department, no recourse to unfair dismissal, no mission charter - in other words a rough, cut-throat trade. It is just a bit naive (or a bit of PR) to say that violence and threats of violence are not part of this business.

The 500 fee is fact. I have known it offered.

As for the day fee girls pay, I never said there was anything wrong in it. Yes the fee at Bernd's is less because they creamed off 30 Euros per session for themselves, the girls only got 50 Euros a trick. What the system is now I have no idea but for sure the girls don't get more than 50 Euros basic. Fucking without gummi and sandwich and other extras they keep.

How charming to call pimps boyfriend/managers. As one girl said to me the 'boyfriend' of a prostitute either loves her and hates the job or he loves the money and couldn't care a toss about the girl outside of earning for him. Am I really to accept that in this business a man who looks after a girl is going to shrug his shoulders and say ce la vie when she leaves him for another boyfriend/manager?
Of course any girl with any sense avoids getting involved with a pimp and works as a freelance. That's why most of them don't have a man in their life, for fear of him sitting at home counting the cash and spending it on himself. As for the cancer victim, well good God who wouldn’t help! But that’s not proof these guys are all saints and Samaritans.

We men have a lot of fun at these clubs and I think it is right we should pay for it as we are having it at the expense of girls who know this isn't a great career move for them. Long term it can damage them psychologically. Who deals with these problems? Where is the help (outside of ad hoc advice) to a girl who wants to lead a normal life and have a normal sex life? A significant number of these girls are messed up to begin with and this job in no way helps them. They earn big money and live in a fantasy world from which escape is really hard, and almost impossible for many.

Papers.

Most East Europeans don't bother with papers if they come on a student visa
Recruitment

I would like you to see how many girls you get through a simple ad!

Hell's Angles

At PHG they sit in the offices watching the CCTV screens.

SW is also owned by FKKWorld. the previous owner is in jail.

You go, Peter!!!

Cheers,

Dedalus

This is funny, there is a very strong criminal element involved in the sex trade in every country, Germany is definitely not an exception to the rule.

Marlow,

I did forget about the fact that SW now is owned by HA as well.

the whole Hamburg stuff has nothing to do with FKK's. The criminal elements you are talking about were much more involved in RLD's and wohnungen and the like. their involvement in FKK's is more limited, because of the nature of the clubs. why do you think HA's opened World in the first place.

there were no people going to the RLD's and wohnungen anymore, they had all emigrated out to the FKK's.

RLD's are concentrated in one area and cannot expand in a big way, or move ot another part of town. that is why these areas are often the sight of violence and gangish fights. Most of the RLD's in Hamburg and frankfurt (the largest in Germany) have been the sight of fights for control from bike gangs, russian and albanian gangs for the past 15 years. They use direct violence, and even intimidate the customers with people playing card games in front of the doors to slow down business and such.

FKK's are out of town, so you can't use as much intimidation and those things, so the better way is to open up another better club where the customers will go. that's what they did with World.

Mauro, the owner of Oase is actually a nice guy. The raids have more to do with checking taxes and immigration status (and student visas mean they can work as far as I remember the law) more than trying to control a criminal club owner.

People involved in questionable business will be a bit more seedy than sunday school teachers, but i wouldn't say they are all horrible people. the owners of Samya you can pretty much consider to be a mom and pop operation.

As to why girls get in this business, it is almost all about the money. I hope most girls are strong and smart enough to get out of the business before it ruins them, and take a bit of cash with them.

I know this one girl who works behind the counter at a club. she needed cash badly and since i had always bugged her about being willing to pay for it. she said she would let me go down on her for 1000€, which i took her up on. well, that short term cash crunch has turned into a more repetitive thing and she keeps proposing that we repeat this deal, or maybe go for more over and over. Once you have done it once, it gets easier.

this girl is totally german, has a real job on the side and all sorts of normal stuff, but she needs some cash and is willing to trade sex for money. that is the basis of prostitution.

The reason these small time pimps don't harm the girls if they leave is not because of benevolence. it is just because they aren't really tough criminals, and if they actually harmed the girl they could actually get in real trouble.

Cologne is filled with a bunch of young turkish and albanian pimps. most of them have less than 4 girls working for them and barely clear enough cash to pay for an opel. They like being considered a pimp, but their pimp hand definitely isn't strong.

they would only resort to violence to save their face, adn that owuld only be if the girl was stupid enough to flaunt her newfound "freedom" around his friends. If a girl does that, she is just stupid.

But usually if they take off, and just try to avoid contact with him for a while, he will tell all his friends that she is old and ugly and not earning anymore and that she paid him the 8,000€ that is named the going rate to buy freedom (used ot be 15,000 marks).

they have nothing real to hold these girls with, and unless they are big time pimps with the connections to get her muscled up, they ain't going to risk real jail time for a small time payout.

that being said i know girls who have kept saving the pimps share and making sure the other girls who work for him are earning like they should while he was on a two year jail sentence. She could have easily left, as most of the other girls did (she tried o rally friends of the jailed pimp to muscle these other girls) but she wanted to be sure that she stayed his "top *****" when he got out. that is a messed up type of love, that this girl with a German Passport did. No explaining peopole and their motivations sometimes.

Having been a witness to some scenes in RLDs in Germany, the FKK scene is about as clean as it gets. I used to see plenty of people (sw and not) shooting up in open daylight on the streets. You will never see anything remotely related to that in a FKK. What you will see is women abusing their bodies by not getting sleep and drinking large amounts of highly caffinated drinks to stay awake. It's pretty hard on the body to work 15 hours a day for weeks at a time.

some girls use coke and marijuana to help them get through the day too. those are the main drugs i have seen in clubs, wit the coke being the less widespread.

Let's be honest about what the girls are earning nowadays. there are quite few who are managing 7 rooms a day on average, 4 is a more realistic number. Just too many clubs and a poor economy spreading the men quite thin.

[QUOTE=Peter]
Let's be honest about what the girls are earning nowadays. there are quite few who are managing 7 rooms a day on average, 4 is a more realistic number. Just too many clubs and a poor economy spreading the men quite thin.[/QUOTE]

Do you mean 4-7 sessions per day spread out over a week, or per day worked? Also are you taking seasonal ups and downs into consideration? Before Christmas, I would bet that the percentage of girls at the big-three Frankfurt clubs doing more than 5 sessions per day worked would have been fairly high (30-35%) My tour of the big-three last week left me with the impression that this percentage was now around 15% as it was clearly a buyers market. (Great time to snag a top-act!!) Also are we counting an hour session as two sessions?

Interesting topic.

Mauro is ok, but he could smile now and then.

Cheers,

Dedalus

Hi guys,

I don't live in Germany and I don't know any of the FKK owners so I am not able to judge their character (although I will give Mario props if he takes down that damn strobe light). I do not know how many of the girls do hard drugs. I do not know if a girl is beeing pimped or not but I hope they are receiving most of what they are earning. I am pretty ignorant on the situation of how a particular girl ended up in the place. The girls tell stories, good and bad, but I never know what to believe so I just leave it at that

I am far from beeing the the most experienced monger in the world, but I've been around. This I do know: The FKKs I've been to are the places where I find sex workers that seemed to be in general much more ok about their situation and line of work than any other p4p I've experienced. That tells me something.

Chivaz

[QUOTE=Akibono]Having been a witness to some scenes in RLDs in Germany, the FKK scene is about as clean as it gets. I used to see plenty of people (sw and not) shooting up in open daylight on the streets. You will never see anything remotely related to that in a FKK. What you will see is women abusing their bodies by not getting sleep and drinking large amounts of highly caffinated drinks to stay awake. It's pretty hard on the body to work 15 hours a day for weeks at a time.[/QUOTE]
Tell that to the people at Atlantis. Lets avoid the word "Clean", prostitution has a serious social stigma in Germany as well as in Anglo countries. Its just that the Germans have a different way to approach the problem. If you told me Amsterdam was "Clean", I would laugh, I got a rude awakening to the scene in the Netherlands which has a very strong underworld element, Peter wasn't kidding that I would need a bodyguard. The majority of FKK girls are doing this as a normal job to pay their bills, an alternative to bagging groceries at Aldi or Plus.

[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]Tell that to the people at Atlantis. Lets avoid the word "Clean", prostitution has a serious social stigma in Germany as well as in Anglo countries. Its just that the Germans have a different way to approach the problem. If you told me Amsterdam was "Clean", I would laugh, I got a rude awakening to the scene in the Netherlands which has a very strong underworld element, Peter wasn't kidding that I would need a bodyguard. The majority of FKK girls are doing this as a normal job to pay their bills, an alternative to bagging groceries at Aldi or Plus.[/QUOTE]



Note, Atlantis was shut down and the suspects arrested and jailed. So, it is an indication that there is an effective watch dog at work. It is an indication of success--not failure. How many shops in RLDs are ever raided?

The sex industry in Germany is by no means a clean business, I have even spoken with a few locals about this, especially with the women, some of them pull tricks to get legal residency like getting married to a local. It doesn't happen all the time but enough that it is an issue. From what I know, the Netherlands and the UK have a more serious problem with this, some other Euroepan countries also have more blatant violations, France and Italy being two countries where this problem is quite serious. The United States has the worst problem with regards to [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord908][CodeWord908][/url], this occurs in Australia with regards to most Asian massage parlors, where I live there is a sizable sex industry but things are tightly regulated by the authorities, women are discouraged from giving clients bbbjs in Australian brothels.