Enter Complaints about other Members

i was under the impression that this problem (nova/dc board)would have resolved itself by now but i see i was wrong.

the novs/dc/bmore board(s) have always prided ourselves on having a self sufficent (jackson you are the man and i mean no disrespect to you in any way!) and informative board. along comes a senior member, (otto) who to my knowledge is not and has not been a frequent poster to any of the above mentioned boards, who comes in like the new sheriff in town. the message (as it was perceived) was i'm buddies with jackson and there is nothing you can do about me. usually when someone makes errors in these threads one or several of the senior members will attempt to lightly correct the problem either through a general posting for all to read or a pm. in this case otto appeared to relish in stirring things up. stronger worded postings followed ( i admit i posted a very strongly worded reply that probably should have been thought out better) which seemed to be reported to jackson with astonishing speed. pm's containing what i will call whining and veiled threats from otto were delivered to those who chose to speak out aginst him. otto states "*i am not going to apologize for encouraging members to follow jackson's no-flame, no-attack rule. *i am not going to apologize for referring your posts or anybody else's posts for editing due to your inability to keep from attacking other members (including me, it now seems)." to me it appears that you are willing to dish it out but not take it in. in my opinion,this clouds your judgement . in several of your postings you degrade the rest of us by your attitude and choice of words. no one has referred to me as a boy in a long time. i served my country proudly in the military and am a veteran of two wars. if i have a problem with someone i sure don't run to mommy (jackson in this case) to tell on them.

the effects of all of this are now very evident. posts in these threads seem to be edited quickly. posts are being deemed as spam are removed and several senior members of these threads ( sorry guillermo you don't count here because as with otto, you aren't a frquent poster to these threads) have stopped posting in protest. these members have been extremely valuable posters for years and the knowledge they have passed on is great. i challenge anyone to review posts from lovelos or trashman as examples. even the corrections (spankings) they have delivered are usually done so with tact and lightness. if this problem isn't addressed quickly then i believe the loss of these valuable members is soon to be a reality.

i am the first one to say that otto has the right to post his opinions. my greatest concern is that his postings have brought a festering sore to the board. yes i agree with sainter that the biggest problem is his attitude. otto does appear to be able to get away with things that most members don't. case in point is his spamming. how jackson defines spamming is still a mystery to me. how a posting i sent out could be labeled as spamming but otto's aren't leaves me scratching my full head of hair. again jackson no disrespect. i believe you do a remarkable job with this board.

i follow suite with trashman and lovelos in offering the olive branch to otto. i do so only with the understanding that your posting need to change. if you can see past your better then you and hostile attitude you will see we are all pretty much the same. i do not believe in ignoring a problem because i have learned in my life that ignoring a problem only makes it worse.
in closing i would like to say that i do believe jackson does a great job of keeping a an even hand on this board. i look forward to reading his solution to this mess. several members have posted some very good thoughts here. others seem to posted where they should have thought before typing. i have had that same problem as i stated above.

Jackson,

I have been reading this thread and wanted to add my two cents worth. First, I want it noted for the record that I consider LoveLOS to be a friend and wish to defend him as much as possible. At the same time, I want it clear that I mean no disrespect to Otto whatsoever. In fact, I do respect Otto and his voluminous contributions to this forum. Therein lies my dilema. I want to support my friend without casting dispersion on Otto, while I call it as I see it. So, here is my attempt.

I think that they both have very valid points. I learned the hard way that flame wars did not add any positive contribution to this site, and as you so eloquently pointed out, is not the purpose of this site. So, this must all come to an end. But, I don't want to see it end where we loose a couple of well respected members because of this. Some sort of compromise must be made.

I do not think that Otto has your password or has Admin access to this site. I believe that you, Jackson, edit personal attacks out of any posts that comes to your attention. I know this from personal history. I myself got into a flame war and attacked a fellow member on the board. When I came back to see the response, I noticed that my original post had been edited and any personal attack that I had launched on a fellow member had been deleted or changed. At first I was upset, but later realized that you were just protecting the integrity of this site. If things just degrade into personal attacks, we all loose. So, I have to defend Jackson on this one LoveLOS, I believe he is the one that edited any personal attack out of your posts.

Now, don't get me wrong, I totally agree with LL and Trashman in flaming a newbie about RTFF and asking stupid questions. And, I further agree that you try to encourage the offending party to mend their ways and post only useful information, or to only ask questions that have not been answered recently. Hopefully, the newbie learns the error of their ways and then goes on to be a great contributor to the forum. I further agree that if someone is posting bullshit information then it is our duty to point that out as well. This is where my opinion differs slightly from LL's. He said that no one looks at the number of posts that a member has made, and I disagree totally. I think the number of their posts plays a very big part in how you view the member. Now, when I look at guys like LL, Trashman, PWhipped and even Otto, I see that they have contributed several hundred posts each and I tend to give them more respect out of the sheer volume of their contributions. No, I don't look at the specific numbers, but if someone has posted more than 200 times on this forum, you tend to really take notice of what they say. When I look at a newbie that has 2 or 3 posts that wants to start a flame or cause problems, then I think it is a senior members responsiblity to try to inform and educate the newbie as to how we operate around here.

This is where I agree with Otto, I don't have a problem with him visiting other areas and giving his opinion on matters. In fact, I encourage it. If a senior member like Otto weighs in on a subject, it can only improve the situation. However, I think he should respect the senior members that post on that particular board regularly and not flame them as well. And, I don't think he should drop your name as if he is speaking for you. He should state his opinion and maybe even allude to your stated opinions on matters, but he should not speak for you.

Now, as to Otto being creeped out by being stalked! I think he was trying to be humorous, but it is very easy to do a forum search to find any information that you are looking for. And, I have to say that LL did an admirable job doing research and posting all that he found to back up his point. So, now we get to the point of asking the question, How the hell do we fix all this?

IMHO, I think both parties, Otto and LoveLOS should be made to write formal apologies to the other. I don't give a shit about the semantics of who started what and when. I think at this point they have both engaged in bad behavior and should have to apologize for it. (Sorry LoveLOS, just my opinion) And, as senior members, we should support each other whenever possible, especially if it is on your own home turf. So, I would expect Otto to show more respect to people on local boards whenever he decides to chime in. As, I would expect anyone else to show him respect on his home turf or boards as the case may be.

I think they should apologize to each other and agree to not attack the other again. And, I don't think that anyone should ever speak for you Jackson, or to even state that they are speaking for you. That way we can put all this shit behind us and go looking for some women. After all, that's what we come here for in the first place.

Now, I hope that LL and Otto are not upset with me for my opinion. After all, opinions are like assholes, everyone has one! lol. But, I felt it important to defend LoveLOS out of my respect for him and the friendship that we have, even though I do not agree with everything that he said. I also did not want to anger Uncle Otto because of the respect that I have for him.

Thanks,
Box

Jackson,

Let me start out by saying that this entire discussion is based on what appears to be a clash of personalities, and it has nothing to do with either your rules for the board, or what seems to be perceived as some lack of respect for you or your administration.

In fact, I have gone on record several times in the past praising your efforts and commending the time and money you put into running what I, and many others, consider a crucial service.

Those of us who consider the DC/NOVA boards to be are "home" are proud of the fact that we contribute to what we see as among the most vibrant and healthy areas of WSG. And, we also see that this area has run well, and has been almost entirely self regulating and free of friction.

What seems to have raised the ire of many members is that someone who had made no noticible contributions to the local boards suddenly appeared to have taken on the self-appointed job as our local moderator. And to escalate the tension his relationship with you was frequently mentioned as his reason for his new position.

Some may say we did not react well. In fact, I'll freely admit that I made an intemperate posting that you quickly edited. I deserved that. I regret that I responded to a situation with words that were uncalled for. And perhaps that intempeate posting could be used to argue that we need some kind of a moderator here in DC/NOVA. That, of course, is your call.

I have no problem with the fact that every member of the board has the right to express his opinions. And while I have a special kinship with Trashman and LoveLOS because we share the same hunting grounds, I fully support OttoGraham's right to share his opinions with us as well.

But I would hope, and most respectfully request, that if you see some special need to appoint a moderator for our area of the board, that it not be a principal in this little conflict.

Hopefully, we all have a common intention, and that is to keep this board as the premier source of information on our hobby in the world. My "senior" status is really because of the silver in my hair and the miles under my tail. I cannot tell you how many years were wasted in looking for love in all the wrong places before the board came along. What we have here, thanks to your unstinting efforts, is a remarkable tool that makes the pursuit of our hobby far easier than it was in the old days.

I trust that the current spat will soon be forgotten as tempers cool and calm returns. Frankly, I don't see a major problem here and would follow the old addage "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." But, if in your opinion some remedial action is required, I trust you to find the correct course.

Randy

Jackson "spams"
1. As this is Jackson's board, we all have to expect solicitations for the BA charity. To me, it is ok if Otto spams on that. My trawling shows that Freeler and some others complained about it but I figure those reminders are a cheap price to pay and I ma sure the army of Northenr Virginia do not have a problem with occasional shots like that. I do not contribute for my own reasons, most of which concern personal security. I am a cheap Charlie in many, but not all ways. I do like to help the poor, mostly direct, to young and not so young women with loose morals and looser teeth (toothless old women give the best bjs: take it from one who know;) As regards the BA charity, I am not giving out my credit card details to anyone here, Jackson and Paypal included. Nor, this being Japan, will I mail a check!
2. The Globo trotto ads, complete with Jackson's warning, are also a small price to pay. I doubt that Globo gets rich from it and at least one dude, Robux, enjoyed the service and "shared the love" with us all. Again, a small price.

Jackson"flames"
1. I thought PNG's flame of TNG was a classic and I was very saddened to see it edited. I particularly love the piece about doing a "Passion of the Christ" on TNG. That is a new way of expressing something more earthy than personal love and I like it. Well done PNG. I forgive you your fondness for young skanks; you are a good little boy at heart.
2. Jackson, please allow witty flames to stand if the wit is more than the shit. On this matter, I feel you wrongly censored the poets on the Mongolian board. I don't think they were flaming; rather I think they were just delving into Ulaan Bator's dark side. I was annoyed with some asshole saying I do low quality flaming. There ain't nothin' low quality about Rev John Tits Skinless.


Boxcc:
1. So you are a veteran of two wars? Big ones or small ones?
2. The real question is did you survive the school playground? If not, maybe this board wilkl be good training:)

Nibu Raphael:
1. You are the wisest man on the entire site (admittedly there is not a lot of competition).
2. Give my regards to Big Titted Sandra and all the other jungle bunnies. Do one for the Gipper:)
3. You might be interested to know that JTS has a bunch of big titted Thai skanks lined up for next month. "Climb every mountain"

[b]My Two Cents[/b]
I am posting out of respect for LOVELOS, flinging mud only guarantees that you get muddy so I try to avoid any internecine brawls.

I have only two problems with the Virginia>NorthernVirginia board.
1) Aint nearly enough action. There has got to be some latina SWs out there serving the transient labor market but no one seems to post it.

2) OttoGraham. The NoVa board does a great job of policing itself and we do not need some self-appointed champion showing up, causing trouble and telling us how to handle ourselves. Otto, if you want to become a member of the local community - someone we will pay attention to - then do some mongering around here and give some advice. Otherwise take (what many people see as) your superior attitude elsewhere and let us deal with own local issues and idiots. The fact that we are wasting so much effort on YOU proves that this isnt about your cleaning up a board that needs your help. It is all about YOU and to be perfectly honest I do not care how many ho's you have turned into love slaves due to the magnificence of your love making, what your preferred chardonnay is or whether you prefer straight or clarified butter with your lobster (personnally I am an advocate of a hint of rice vinegar but that is an acquired taste and...do you care?). I do care that you have antagonized a number of very respected members on our board and contributed nothing.

UncleOtto, you seem like a very bright guy, and I've thoroughly enjoyed most of your reports in various areas. So I confess I'm baffled as to why you don't seem to recognize that most folks here are not objecting to [i]what[/i] you did, but [i]how[/i] you did it, i.e. acting as unofficial and unappointed militia, with that same degree of military swagger. Given that your chief complaint against members is also one of methodology (the impermissibility of attacks on other members) this simply seems very strange.

Or is it that you [i]are[/i] very clear on this point, and just don't care? Because if so that clarifies things considerably.

No one has a problem with how Jackson polices the board -- you're just setting up and knocking down a straw man with that statement -- the paranoia over editing and admin passwords aside, which has been clearly laid to rest.

(As an aside to all, is it simply this time of year that gets everyone so testy? Sure seems like a recurrent pattern. I think everyone just needs to go get some and chill a bit.)

huh? yet again, you miss my point -- not that you're referring anything to the admin, which many of us have done, or that he's edited things, which he almost invariably does quite deftly, but [i]that your tone in lecturing people is what has pissed them off,[/i] somehow that specific subject is the thing you continuously ignore or obfurep001e.

i agree that it would have been better had lovelos simply let this whole stupid thing die, as, for example, i did in the thailand section despite the fact that i felt you were being a bit of a self-righteous pain. (big deal -- so am i, far too often.) i had my say at the time, and that was that, and that's what should have happened here. and in reading through the whole virginia section i personally thought your comments were fairly mild in any event.

but using the forum's search function is hardly cyberstalking any more than is you visiting new sections and whapping at members there. lovelos (who's not my "friend" as i don't know him and have at most had an exchange or two with him on this board, if that -- i only got brought into this because he quoted one of my old posts) specifically denied making such a reprehensible threat and said he regretted that someone did. given that he's admitted being mistaken about the whole password thing and apologized for that, i see no reason not to take him at his word on this as well -- his posts in this thread have always been civil, and the admin has seen fit to edit none of them. and as i recall, lovelos did not in fact say he knew his post was going cause offense; he apologized in advance for stirring up a hornet's nest.

you're rightfully offended that someone made a stupid and threatening comment -- why is it so hard to grasp that the tone and language of some of your posts lecturing people about how to behave could have had the same effect?

Just trying to clarify the misconceptions and errors. I realize i'm long-winded, but please read carefully before posting. My detractors, including Otto, are often making arguments that have nothing to do with my complaint.

1. I thought Jackson and I made it very clear that the issue of the hacked password is a moot point. Jackson verified he mad the edits and I humbly retracted my concerns. Let's all please drop that issue.

2. Otto has repeatedly brought up accusations of a threat to his person, which he has not subsantiated. Now he has simply accused me of this. That, gentlemen, is a personal attack. I have never threatened him and have repeatedly tried to tone his rhetoric down, to no avail.

3. Which is it, hysterical or premeditatied? I ask you all to read my comments both before I posted my complaints (in NoVA) and after. I have tried to be even handed and non-inflamatory, although my intent has obviously been misread. :( I admit I posted the complaint itself in a manner designed to get Jackson's attention, but not after a lot of PMs from most of the guys on the (LOCAL) board, not one of which was complimentary. I feel now that I must add not one of which was a threat to his person. I opened this discussion not because he attacked me, but because he attacked all of my friends.

4. This issue is not with Jackson or following his rules. Only one of my posts has ever been edited by the admin, and I learned from that. I have had nothing edited since the zero tolerance policy went into effect, and I honestly don't have any clue when that occurred. Otto, your claims I am a serial flamer are unfounded, according you Jackson's interpretation of his rules (as you stated, "in his good judgement").

5. Otto, your contributions to WSG forum are fabulous. Your "on-topic" posts and reports are some of the best I have ever read. I have no problem with you when you are talking about banging chicas or your food/wine/hotel posts. When a member (e.g. Fool4FishNets) refers to any lack of contributions to THIS board, he is referring to the NoVA /DC area local board.

6. Most of the parties supporting me understand where I am coming from. It is the STYLE, not the CONTENT of Otto's POLICING posts and PMs that I am objecting to. Otto and his suporters seems to be willfully blind to that concept.

7. The NoVa board is now flame free, congrads Otto. It is also devoid of posts because you have pissed off those members who keep it active. I do note Jom Rob is posting, guess we didn't run him off and limit him. Please do not claim credit in helping make him feel welcome as you did not bother being kind to the guy. Remember that incident is the basis of my complaint, you AGGREVATED the flaming on the board.

In a nutshell, my complaint is that you FLAME BAIT and then BASH the party that TAKES the BAIT. Is that too hard to understand?

6. Let me make it clear to all that I am not above admitting a mistake in judgement. This is not a change in my stance as I believe firmly that I have not made a mistake in judgement; and because I have always stated my respect for Jackson who I turned to to officiate this diagareement. Thus, if, in Jackson's opinion I am totally out of line, makes clear to my why he has come to this opinion using his usual even handedness and logic, and asks for my apology in this matter; I will back down. I hope Otto can say the same thing if called upon to do so.

7. If you think I pay $160 to an ugly mamasan for a HJ, please research my posts a little more in depth :D, I promise I wont get creeped out... <LOL>

LoveLOS

Otto, I have extended an olive branch to you now on several occaisons, including an invite to bury the hatchet over a beer.

Your response was to initially ignore me, followed by an accusatory message, and now the zinger, snipe, flame, whatever you choose to call it at the bottom of your post to LoveLOS.

I think that you are a hypocrite. Your post referencing me in derogatory terms, again accusatory, and a rather rude decline of an open invitation to make peace is just the kind of thing that you have been whining about on this board that others are doing.

I strongly suggest that you keep your [blue][Deleted by Admin][/blue] mouth shut about me. You want to blast back flames at LoveLOS or anybody else, that's your business, but to not drag me into it. Am I making myself crystal clear?

And to set the record straight, I invited you out, you answered with a yes, I asked when and where and then you [blue][Deleted by Admin][/blue] out. That's NOT desperation. Quite to the contrary, your answers seem born of desperation.

[size=-2][b][u]EDITOR'S NOTE[/u]:[/b] [blue]This report was edited in accordance with the WSG Forum's [u]Zero Tolerance[/u] policy regarding reports containing any personal attacks or derogatory comments directed towards another Forum Member or the Forum Membership in general.[/blue][/size]

I enjoy a good fight as much as anyone, but this thread has gotten to the point that ALL the parties are in violation of the rules. Perhaps Jackson would do the honor of putting a kill date for messages similar to last months Thailand discussions.

I’ve sat back and watched this whole mess ramify over the last X days to my ever increasing exasperation and dismay. My hope is that this whole mess just STOPS, and I thank Jackson for relocating it here from the Northern Virginia board. I offer these comments, observations and opinions for your thoughts and consideration.

1. [b]Gasoline doesn’t extinguish flames.[/b] While this appears to be a fight between Otto and the rest of the members that have contributed here, most all of the rest have calmed their provocations down considerably while Otto hasn’t. My suggestion to Otto is that he also calm down. My suggestion to everyone is that this become a debate about behavior and not a fight between people. I’m not the first to bring this up, but it begs to be repeated.

2. [b]When you ride in on a high horse, you have farther to fall.[/b] My first thoughts when Otto began posting on the NOVA board was “there’s a new sheriff in town.” Now, nobody likes a hard-assing cop (or an officer of the court, Guillermo) abusing their unestablished authority or making specious arguments -- especially mongers, and that’s the way Otto has presented himself to us locals. We’re basically scofflaws at heart, so I’m not surprised at the local reaction.

3. [b]This is Jackson’s board, but is Otto Jackson’s proxy?[/b] Establishing this will go a long way toward calming the restless natives. Jackson? WSG isn’t a democracy, it’s a benevolent dictatorship, and Jackson is privileged to dispense special dispensation to any and all of his friends, with or without preamble. My only comment is that here in Northern Virginia, which is essentially Washington, DC Metro, we’re used to a rather high quality of diplomacy, which is considered one of the local arts, and exports. Words are the tools of our trade. It’s not always pretty, as evidenced in what might be misconstrued as personal attacks by outsiders. This is the local product, not the export product.

4. [b]Messing with a man’s art is the surest way to [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140][CodeWord140][/url] him off, and his friends.[/b] TrashMan is the undisputed Don of Washington/NOVA/Baltimore, and his art, besides posting on his many P4P experiences, is his good-natured trash talking, humility and worldview. LoveLOS is his consigliere. Trash’s widely held high level of esteem cannot be fully understood without a detailed study of his canon of posts in their original context. I have personally been on the receiving end of TrashMan’s missives, and can honestly say it was an honor just to have come up on his radar. What’s important to note is that TrashMan’s derogatory (yes, derogatory) comments are instructive, humorous and entertaining [u]in the local custom[/u]. When he’s wrong, he apologizes fast, as is the local custom. Otto’s behavior was so jarring because he presented himself as an outside colonizing influence. Few, if any, of those of us on the receiving end of Trash's posts have been scared off from subsequently posting, usually issue a mia culpa, and our posts become better for Trash’s instruction. Please note: [u]We have no local flame wars except for small dustups about the quality of posts,[/u] with the exception of this latest more personal situation. The local boards under TrashMan’s purview are better for his participation. As TrashMan represents the heart and soul of our local boards, [red]it is my considered opinion that this whole firestorm was catalyzed by those local men who respect TrashMan and came to his defense. [/red]

5. [b]Too much paranoia.[/b] Otto, nobody is going to put a cap in your skull. That type of talk, which is never posted on the boards except by you, can also be considered local custom. Believe me when I tell you this. We have such a large former and current military and spook population in this region that only those unfamiliar with this subculture would be shocked. For example, on a recent evening, sitting over dinner with my local charitable service organization, I counted well over 60% of the men I was dining with who had personally killed numerous people in the service of their country. No, LL and Trash are not members of my club. :) So go enjoy your beer with TrashMan and bury the fucking hatchet already.

6. [b]Is peace the goal, or adherence to policy?[/b] The NOVA board has been self-policing, productive and very popular. This firestorm has brought NOVA to a halt for all practical purposes. My question to you, honorable Jackson: If peace is the goal (and we have been peaceful in NOVA), is creating a forum-wide policy to solve a Thailand-specific problem the best possible solution if the unintended consequences of the cure shut down entire boards? Is the letter or the spirit more important? I believe we in NOVA have adhered to the spirit and created a great place to call home.

7. [b]”Can’t we all just get along?”[/b] My posts to attempt to get things going again, and inject a little levity, have utterly failed, and it’s about time we got back to posting about getting laid – or jerked off, which is the norm in NOVA AMPs. As a result of those pissed off not posting, the whole region’s boards have suffered. In this dearth of anything good to read or discuss, even a pic of my dog has gotten almost 600 views! All you warring MF’s can get together and have a drink on me. Let’s get past this and back to posting about pussy.

Well, I shot my wad.

Robux

P.S. Jim Rob, the recipient of the initial dissing by TrashMan and LoveLOS that provoked Otto’s scolding, is actively and productively contributing posts, so what the fuck is this flame war really about Otto?

The WHOLE Argument here is =

Do YOU *LIKE* What OttoGraham has to say ??

Or = Don't You ??

IF You DO NOT LIKE what he has to say =

** IGNORE HIM !!! **

In my humble opinion = Uncle OTTO is one of the
Wisest and Most Experienced Senior Members Here

I'd rather be Kicked in the Ass by OTTO ,
Than be Knighted by the Queen of England !!

But that's Just me

Robux,

Great post, sir. And not surprising, given your WSG history.

Personally, I'm not taking sides in this battle, short of hoping that it all ends peacefully, and soon.

I do tend to completely ignore most of OttoGraham's offerings as a bit too high-handed and holier-than-thou for my tastes, and typically look forward to reading posts by LoveLOS and TrashMan as they tend towards the witty, funny, and informative. There are also other posters whom I alternately chose to either ignore or read, however, that's just my take on things; others can do what they wish regarding the reading or ignoring of posts. It's a free forum.

In any case, I'd hate to see ANY of them go, because they ALL provide value to WSG in one form or another. Jackson, please consider this in your evaluation.

My 5 cents, adjusted for inflation.
- Atlanta Monger

Otto, Please sir, I reiterate for the nth time: [b]I absolutely do NOT want you kicked off of WSG[/b]. Never said it, never will.

Your arguement will be more convincing when you get some basic facts straight.
LL

Originally posted by LoveLOS:
[quote]
6. Let me make it clear to all that I am not above admitting a mistake in judgement. [/quote]

Well , We ALL make Mistakes , LLOS !!

And On Behalf of the This Entire Site =

We THANK YOU for being MAN Enough to ADMIT It !!