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Aca Gold: 40 € / 30 min. LR: 50 € / 30 min. DV: I don't know.
No overcharge for BBBJ or DFK in the two clubs above. If a girl tells you there is one, use the magical word: "no". Or else you'll pay the tourist rate. Make up an excuse like "my good Belgian friend comes often here and he told me there is no upsell in this club" or something like that. And please don't tip or commit to a one hour session before the start.
[QUOTE=Gino02;2333292]Are these new poor service upselling recruits in last 2 years actually making more money per month compared to the new good service no-upselling recruits before that? I remember Aylice at Sharks or Elizabeth CZ at Oase in 2015-2016 used to easily make 1000-1500 e per day, 15000 - 20000 e per month by doing 50 e 30 min sessions or multiple units of that with giving really good service and zero upselling. How many of these poor service upselling new recruits in last 2 years make that kind of money in Oase or Sharks nowadays? I don't know any, do anybody here know? If they are not making similar to Elizabeth CZ or Aylice, maybe they can learn from the history? Maybe we mongers can help today's new recruits by coaching them about how to maximize net income by balancing good products and solid services with attractive pricing, commitment to quality, volume and discounts, value of repeat business etc, when we get any chance to talk with them?[/QUOTE]Yes, little Bulgarian Aylice at Sharks, was high level in bed, but not a top beauty, and even she was so lovely with a beautiful smile, I was not anymore attracted when she became silicon. When I think you could get what you look for with her, but I had higher level girls at Sharks like now Kate Globe for Sharks rate, and Megan was higher level for me, I don't mean about extreme performances, but more than 30 rooms with Megan only at Sharks, versus less than 10 rooms with Aylice.
About Elisabet. Cz at Oase, also really lovely, but nothing exceptional for me in bed, only technique but no sensuality, had also higher level girls for me at Oase, like Tatiana. Ru or my April girls.
After my last real life girlfriend, when I found some Russian escorts met in Paris were not pretty enough and was criticized when I wrote this on another forum before this one, it was really difficult for me to find pretty girls when I started in FKK land on end of 2012, looking for Siberian types, I often left most famous clubs like GT, Sharks, Oase with full, heavy balls, taking appointment with one of my regular escort when driving back to Paris, for a Russian night, but I succeeded to find few beauties, I learned to love Romanian beauties and understood the most difficult for me is to find pretty girls, so when I succeed, even when they are not performers, I prefer to work to make a beauty improving for me. At LR, I chose one for her look and charm, even first room was really average with her small pussy. At the end of our discovery, I didn't think to repeat, but nothing better on end of 2016 at LR, so I looked again at her look and I returned to her few hours later, I was her first to repeat on same day with her, I met her weekly when she worked, she followed me in bed and became my best ever girl in whole FKK land, even including Globe superstars, not for her performances in bed, but for complicity and trusting for sex, with so erotic games. I loved when I put her sticky, white liquid on my fingers to make her taste, but she turned head, so I put in my mouth and kissed her to put in her mouth, and some other sexual games, and I also understood when you make your girls feel woman, making them cum, some will ask you for again, and most will treat you in different way than others, you are not anymore only for money, but then they think, when they are most often just a piece of meat to fuck, you are in love, and some will become jealous, asking you not to go with other girls, or very angry when you stop, but I always stop when I think their behavior don't deserve anymore my money I work to make, and I only returned to this one, because she had exceptional behavior to welcome me when we met again on beginning of September 2017, and immediately on this day, she adapted her schedule like before. On the week end I stopped, she was booked all week end, but delayed her appointment to be free for me, but I couldn't anymore, I was too bored, but I know how she really tried to keep me, when I was not her biggest money, and I m sure she is not so angry about her other lost clients. Also interesting at the moment, when we don't have room together, but relation going on with another very regular, saying I'm so kind with her, when no money between us. But I m not interested to meet for shopping, or holidays. I have my own plans for my busy holidays.
[QUOTE=Massimoweb;2333496]
What is the actual average rate for the std 30 minutes and for 60 minutes in these clubs?
I saw that with the new law, BBBJ is not a std anymore. In January, at Babylon Hamburg I had to pay 10 euros more for it. Is it same now in NRW?
[/QUOTE]50EUR for 30 minutes, 100EUR for 60 minutes, and don't agree to BBBJ for extra, the girls are taking advantage of the law change to try to get more money out of you.
[QUOTE=BigBuddy69;2333359]You're not greedy you're honest and reasonably demanding. Go to LR, 6 sens, Finca, you'll find girls for your tastes. Around Frankfurt Bahamas and Dietz may be your better choices. The 40 euros clubs around Dusseldorf (Aca gold and H7) could suit you but you have to interview the girls a little bit more.[/QUOTE]Dietzenbach only worth, like Villa Venus or Arabella, if you want AO sex, but certainly not for high level of sex, when no beauty, no sensuality. Some new LR girls don't kiss, among some of the prettiest like Reina or Georgi. Few try to upsell at Finca like one of the prettiest, Deniz, when I had high level girls at Sharks for club rate, a really top class on June 2018 , and Oase was really high level, higher level than my LR 2019 girls and prettier, and even higher level than most of my last GT girls, on last months, with my only 2019 wow girl, at Oase. But we don't all have same tastes for looks and level in bed.
[QUOTE=Downandup;2333558]50EUR for 30 minutes, 100EUR for 60 minutes, and don't agree to BBBJ for extra, the girls are taking advantage of the law change to try to get more money out of you.[/QUOTE]I second what DownandUp and BB69 say.
[QUOTE=Pessimist;2333456] I doubt that many girls are at the level of Sharks' Aylice ...in terms of service levels...
Aylice didn't even have many mentors either.[/QUOTE]Aylice was a magnificent performer and also very beautiful with charisma. Her BBBJ skills were legendary and she was a sweetheart too. I think she stopped working before the new anti-BBBJ laws came in. At least I haven't seen her since.
[QUOTE=Pessimist;2333456]You make good points. I doubt that many girls are at the level of Sharks' Aylice or Oase'Elizabeth CZ in terms of service levels. Those two were such nice sweethearts for me and probably many guys.
Aylice didn't even have many mentors either, and was good friends with Manuela and a couple of girls as I recall.
But today's new girls are probably acting on mistaken advice, own internal expectations, and bad early habits. They may be thinking that acting in the manner they are doing is a good way of maximizing their monthly take and when that is not happening, I am not sure they are doing a proper introspection and correcting their behavior. Such honest and critical introspection is a hard thing to do for even well educated, mature adults. I suspect not many of these girls are at that level. So, they are more likely to blame some other external factor, perhaps change a club or whatnot but not truly change their own behavior and service level.
I also don't think us mongers can truly coach them to make changes. First, the girls under discussion IE bad service inflated expectation girls are not sitting down with experienced mongers for any length of time, as they think it is a waste of their time and money and are more likely to yap away with fellow WG friends. They don't view the monger as a potential mentor in any sense. They view us as a John with Euro notes attached to cock. At the same time, few mongers are likely to take the time and patiently pursue a single girl to drill into her head what's good for her business. Our interest is to obtain a good session, keep the session pleasant enough such that she is inclined to provide a good session in future if we picked that girl again and have an equally good session with another pretty girl as soon as we leave the room. I have heard of very few girls who changed their set ways in any meaningful manner because a monger advised and influenced her.[/QUOTE]Pessimist, thanks for appreciating my points.
Yeah most of these new girls won't take any advice from mongers about how to make more money in this business, but given how much time they now spend on Instagram, Snapchat, TikTok, Boomerang etc when back in their sleeping beds and on their off days, don't you think that even if only 1 or 2 of the 200+ girls on the Sharks roasters try the advice and succeed making more net money at the end of the day / month, this success story can get viral thru the social media and many more girls will follow the path of success? Obviously some girls will also notice the successful girls in the club itself and try to understand or mimic the steps, but it can be a hit or miss to notice 1 or 2 successes out of 100+ girls and few hundred guys at any given day in Sharks. Same goes for the other upselling clubs like Oase, Mainhattan, Palace etc; in fact social media has a much better chance of making this success story viral across clubs. In the end, everyone wins - WGs, mongers, clubs - all.
FYI, this is the same "viral by social media" strategy that most businesses and think tanks are using these days to influence effectiveness of marketing, ideas etc - I'm sure you already thought of it by now.
[QUOTE=Gino02;2333622]Pessimist, thanks for appreciating my points.
Yeah most of these new girls won't take any advice from mongers about how to make more money in this business, but given how much time they now spends on Instagram, Snapchat, TikTok, Boomerang etc when back in their sleeping beds and on their off days, don't you think that even if only 1 or 2 of the 200+ girls on the Sharks roasters try the advice and succeed making more net money at the end of the day / month, this success story can get viral thru the social media and many more girls will follow the path of success? Obviously some girls will also notice the successful girls in the club itself and try to understand or mimic the steps, but it can be a hit or miss to notice 1 or 2 successes out of 100+ girls and few hundred guys at any given day in Sharks. Same goes for the other upselling clubs like Oase, Mainhattan, Palace etc; in fact social media has a much better chance of making this success story viral across clubs. In the end, everyone wins - WGs, mongers, clubs - all.
FYI, this is the same "viral by social media" strategy that most businesses and think tanks are using these days to influence effectiveness of marketing, ideas etc - you probably already guessed it.[/QUOTE]I agree that not all girls are not uncoachable. Some girls are certainly likely to take a pragmatic, business minded approach to their careers, analyze what's working well and not, look at other successful girls and what is the factor helping those girls and try to copy them. Copying may be the greatest form of flattery but that's also how all of us human beings improve — from the time as babies imitating grownups how to talk, walk, eat and potty. The sensible girls in the clubs should be copying the habits of the more successful girls as you rightly said.
Some or perhaps many girls read ISG as well, from what I have observed and from what members wrote here. So, some of them know what men are thinking of them. This is also a form of feedback — the sensible girls do not take offense and try to learn from it — or they should anyway. The narrow minded girls try to track down who wrote what and blacklist their existing clients. Talk about stupidity — if you are a business owner that received negative feedback from an existing customer in an anonymous survey, would you track that customer down and refuse to accept his business? For any business that wants to survive and thrive such an act would be considered colossal idiocy. But that's precisely the behavior exhibited by many FKK girls.
There is also the question of how many of us would go to the trouble of reforming and helping a girl with bad habits. Remember, we are talking here about girls with bad service levels, bad attitude, prone to upselling, etc. The good girls are already good, there is no reason to reform them or help them in any way. It is the bad ones needing help, in order to make a whole club better. But most of us are likely to avoid the bad ones, try to get a time slot with the good ones, perhaps write a good review about the better service girls and recommend her to a friend, and perhaps even pan the bad service girl in a ISG review. The hope is that the bad service girl has to possess some amount of self realization, recognize the facts in a bad review and also recognize why another girl is getting a good review + more business and change herself.
Unfortunately, many of these girls took the exact wrong lesson to heart, came to the faulty conclusion that the best way to increase their business is to target mild mannered people, foreign tourists, dare I say even Asians, and otherwise scam unsuspecting mongers.
[QUOTE=Pessimist;2333626]I agree that not all girls are not uncoachable. Some girls are certainly likely to take a pragmatic, business minded approach to their careers, analyze what's working well and not, look at other successful girls and what is the factor helping those girls and try to copy them. Copying may be the greatest form of flattery but that's also how all of us human beings improve from the time as babies imitating grownups how to talk, walk, eat and potty. The sensible girls in the clubs should be copying the habits of the more successful girls as you rightly said.
Some or perhaps many girls read ISG as well, from what I have observed and from what members wrote here. So, some of them know what men are thinking of them. This is also a form of feedback the sensible girls do not take offense and try to learn from it or they should anyway. The narrow minded girls try to track down who wrote what and blacklist their existing clients. Talk about stupidity if you are a business owner that received negative feedback from an existing customer in an anonymous survey, would you track that customer down and refuse to accept his business? For any business that wants to survive and thrive such an act would be considered colossal idiocy..[/QUOTE]The girls that work at an FKK are usually not the most educated girls. The FKK provides a safe environment. Which attracts the girls. Usually, girls are controlled by pimps that tell them what to do. Most think pretty short term and want fast money. When you were that age, did you really think about long term prospects? That is why you see the more educated and older girls in the high end escort business. These girls know that their looks alone will not get them far. They understand the art of seduction and many have mad skills (I. E. Globe). They understand that proper grooming, being able to speak well, being adaptable to a variety of situations, and older professional men is where the money is. They are not looking at 100 E / hour, but 1-2 K over a day or two with possible foreign trips and shopping excursions. Sex is just one part of the equation. They know wealthy men want to be pampered. They must be available at a moments notice. And they can't look like a WG. By the time a girl is close to 30, she knows this or is struggling to earn a living. Ever wonder why a 30 year old escort can command 400-500 an hour and a 21 year old cannot? The experienced girl knows it is not about the orgams. She knows she can make a guy want to have sex and keep him interested until he is exhausted and satisfied. This does not have to mean doing the nasty stuff. She knows she can give him what no other girl can. That is why he pays and keeps coming back. There is nothing that keeps a girl from learning this except her ego and inexperience.
[QUOTE=Sebastiane;2333577]Aylice was a magnificent performer and also very beautiful with charisma. Her BBBJ skills were legendary and she was a sweetheart too. I think she stopped working before the new anti-BBBJ laws came in. At least I haven't seen her since.[/QUOTE]Are we all speaking about small Bulgarian brunette Aylice who became silicon? Who was really high level in bed, or maybe about blond, Marilyn look, model type, Hellis? But average face.
Yes, some WGs, at Sharks, at LR, at Oase, read this forum.
Yes, some guys tell to girls what we are writing, some even pay for time in room spent to bullshit about other guys, and how could I know if I was not told by my girls.
From my experiences, high level, smart girls don't speak about money, they prefer to make regular clients who return often, sometimes weekly, driving so many kilometers for me. Usually, upselling girls won t be the highest level. For example, at Sharks you have Mandy, busy for club rate, and some who try to upsell, but sitting waiting. Girls are often on their clients level, look at their clients and You know a bit about the girl, but with few you can sometimes make them go on your level.
Have to play and make the job to get what we want.
[QUOTE=Pessimist;2333626]I agree that not all girls are not uncoachable. Some girls are certainly likely to take a pragmatic, business minded approach to their careers, analyze what's working well and not, look at other successful girls and what is the factor helping those girls and try to copy them. Copying may be the greatest form of flattery but that's also how all of us human beings improve from the time as babies imitating grownups how to talk, walk, eat and potty. The sensible girls in the clubs should be copying the habits of the more successful girls as you rightly said.
Some or perhaps many girls read ISG as well, from what I have observed and from what members wrote here. So, some of them know what men are thinking of them. This is also a form of feedback the sensible girls do not take offense and try to learn from it or they should anyway. The narrow minded girls try to track down who wrote what and blacklist their existing clients. Talk about stupidity if you are a business owner that received negative feedback from an existing customer in an anonymous survey, would you track that customer down and refuse to accept his business? For any business that wants to survive and thrive such an act would be considered colossal idiocy. But that's precisely the behavior exhibited by many FKK girls.[/QUOTE]What a theoretical approach, I spent many months in several cities in Romania with Romanian girls working in FKK and I really don t believe that any girl in a club have this kind of approach, they just try to earn as much as possible by providing the less service possible. Be a prostitute is not a business, is also not without health issues for most of the girls, 90% of the girls have pimp or a BF or are married.
[QUOTE=Pessimist;2333626]I agree that not all girls are not uncoachable. Some girls are certainly likely to take a pragmatic, business minded approach to their careers, analyze what's working well and not, look at other successful girls and what is the factor helping those girls and try to copy them.
Unfortunately, many of these girls took the exact wrong lesson to heart, came to the faulty conclusion that the best way to increase their business is to target mild mannered people, foreign tourists, dare I say even Asians, and otherwise scam unsuspecting mongers.[/QUOTE]I have enjoyed this conversation and the thoughtful replies. As to the topic of service: I am reminded of comments that people make about NYC service in any clubs or stores. It was perfunctory even abrupt and cold. People would say in a city that large there is almost always another customer right behind you! So don't expect the majority of stores to care! As you and several others pointed out, how many people in FKK clubs are tourists, newbies or just so desperate after leaving their own home that any service is fine as long as they get laid. Most never post and I suspect many don't read this forum or any other except to look at prices. If you come from London a 20 Euro upsell compared to your wife saying "I'll Give you a BJ when he'll freezes over" is pretty darn good.
Most people don't post and the girls probably don't care. If 2 or 3 girls are successful and the rest are all upsellers my first thought would be why would 90%change to match 10%. Honestly if I were in a club and two girls were really busy I'the suspect they were offering something I'the rather not ask do. Just a different view of the Rorschach inkblot from my perspective AND as many of you pointed out. As long as they keep coming through the front door- why change.
[QUOTE=Pessimist;2333626]I agree that not all girls are not uncoachable. Some girls are certainly likely to take a pragmatic, business minded approach to their careers, analyze what's working well and not, look at other successful girls and what is the factor helping those girls and try to copy them.
Unfortunately, many of these girls took the exact wrong lesson to heart, came to the faulty conclusion that the best way to increase their business is to target mild mannered people, foreign tourists, dare I say even Asians, and otherwise scam unsuspecting mongers.[/QUOTE]I appreciate the conversation here! I am reminded of the comments people made when they used to visit me in NYC and would ask "How can the shopkeepers keep customers with that attitude. Really abrupt and almost rude". And I would think, well with so many people walking through the door each day? It's whatever it takes to keep the door open and not too much more. Nothing personal! Life in the FKK seems to be like that. Lots of tourists, men who visit at best, 1 or 2 times a year or once in their life!!
Do the girls really care what the 1 or 2 girls do who are successful, maybe 5% of the ladies? Does that happen in many businesses? Sure some will follow but most come to work, do what they can to get through the day and leave. And if enough people come through the door who only care about that one visit, maybe even a couple visits a year, then the attitude prevails. When I see one or two girls extremely busy, I don't just think: I bet their service is incredible. Sometimes I think what extra things are they offering that the regulars all know? Consider the guy sitting in the FKK thinking: 20 or 50 for a BJ, versus going home to his wife who says: You want a BJ, when hell freezes over.
I admit it, I'm going for my first visit to an FKK, having traveled to other countries and indulged mostly in North America with its own messed up rules. And sadly, if a girl says to me 20 for kissing and she's cute enough, maybe I'll be stupid enough to pay, because when I'm in a club with naked women who may or may not be rubbing my dick, I'm not sure how in control of things I really am.
[QUOTE=Akibono;2333696]The girls that work at an FKK are usually not the most educated girls. The FKK provides a safe environment. Which attracts the girls. Usually, girls are controlled by pimps that tell them what to do. Most think pretty short term and want fast money. When you were that age, did you really think about long term prospects? That is why you see the more educated and older girls in the high end escort business. These girls know that their looks alone will not get them far. They understand the art of seduction and many have mad skills (I. E. Globe). They understand that proper grooming, being able to speak well, being adaptable to a variety of situations, and older professional men is where the money is. They are not looking at 100 E / hour, but 1-2 K over a day or two with possible foreign trips and shopping excursions. Sex is just one part of the equation. They know wealthy men want to be pampered. They must be available at a moments notice. And they can't look like a WG. By the time a girl is close to 30, she knows this or is struggling to earn a living. Ever wonder why a 30 year old escort can command 400-500 an hour and a 21 year old cannot? The experienced girl knows it is not about the orgams. She knows she can make a guy want to have sex and keep him interested until he is exhausted and satisfied. This does not have to mean doing the nasty stuff. She knows she can give him what no other girl can. That is why he pays and keeps coming back. There is nothing that keeps a girl from learning this except her ego and inexperience.[/QUOTE]Fantastic report and so true!! Men want women that know how to make them exhausted and satisfied and want to come back to enjoy those moments I think that what attracts more these women is their level and class, the way they speak and behave etc. In FKK almost all girls are un educated and you can see that from the way they behave.