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[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2578138]Got to tell you MDS, people's naivete on China is amazing. Somehow American deaths from Corona were Trump's fault, and China is blameless. How the hell did that happen? Clearly, China has a great PR team.[/QUOTE][URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEfDwc2G2_8[/URL]
They all carry water (ass lickers) for the ccp.
[QUOTE=JjBee62;2578435]Vaccination reduces the spread of the virus. We know that. It's a point which is no more debatable than whether or not the earth is flat.
Oh, it's because you don't want to help the pharmaceutical companies make a profit? How many pills have you taken in your lifetime?
You don't want to get into the cycle of having to take another vaccine later? Maybe I missed your social media campaigns against annual flu shots, tetanus booster shots,
Which leaves us with it's your personal decision.[/QUOTE]It actually leaves us with more than that, which are my issues that are likewise not debatable.
"It traditionally has taken 5-10 years to get a new vaccine."
"On average, it takes 10-15 years and costs $2.6 billion to develop one new medicine, including the cost of the many failures. Only 12% of new molecular entities that enter clinical trials eventually receive USA Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approval. " That says 10 years, NOT the 2 months it took for these vaccines! In addition, covid vaccines are authorized for emergency use, but they are not FDA approved.
"On average, it takes at least ten years for a new medicine to complete the journey from initial discovery to the marketplace, with clinical trials alone taking six to seven years on average. " That says clinical trials taking 6 years, not the 3 weeks it took for these vaccines!
On top of that if something happens to you because you took one of these barely tested vaccines, it is too bad so sad. You have no means to do anything about it because the makers of these vaccines are exempted from any legal action.
[QUOTE=MrEnternational;2578665]That says clinical trials taking 6 years, not the 3 weeks it took for these vaccines!
[/QUOTE]Are you sure current Covid vaccines only took 3 weeks?
I just want to add the Covid vaccine development time is shorten partly because I have read that there are royalty free technology pooling so that helps and obviously the governments put a lot of money behind it helps too, but I don't know how much speed up is a result of those.
[QUOTE=MrEnternational;2578665]It actually leaves us with more than that, which are my issues that are likewise not debatable.
"It traditionally has taken 5-10 years to get a new vaccine."
"On average, it takes 10-15 years and costs $2.6 billion to develop one new medicine, including the cost of the many failures. Only 12% of new molecular entities that enter clinical trials eventually receive USA Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approval. " That says 10 years, NOT the 2 months it took for these vaccines! In addition, covid vaccines are authorized for emergency use, but they are not FDA approved.
"On average, it takes at least ten years for a new medicine to complete the journey from initial discovery to the marketplace, with clinical trials alone taking six to seven years on average. " That says clinical trials taking 6 years, not the 3 weeks it took for these vaccines!
On top of that if something happens to you because you took one of these barely tested vaccines, it is too bad so sad. You have no means to do anything about it because the makers of these vaccines are exempted from any legal action.[/QUOTE]"On average" is wonderful. On average a Major League Baseball player will get a base hit 1 out of every 4 at bats. Does that mean no baseball player will ever get 10 hits in 10 consecutive times at bat? No. Does it mean no hitter will ever go to the plate 54 consecutive times without getting a hit. Also no. It just means, when you add them all together that's what the average comes out to be.
When talking vaccines and medications, which are 2 different animals, it gets more complicated. Let me try to simply it for you.
Let's say you're a mechanic and the only cars you've ever seen or worked on are 1954-1973 Volkswagen Beetles. You can probably rebuild a 1600 CC dual port VW engine blindfolded. You can probably diagnose a problem just by listening. If someone brings you one of those cars, if you can't fix it, it can't be fixed.
One day someone shows up with a Meyers Manx dune buggy. It looks a lot different from all those Beetles. But, when you tear into it, it's just a different body sitting on a VW chassis. Same engine, same transmission. Turns out you already know quite a lot about the car.
You could change that to a Porsche if you want. Each one you find that you're not starting over from scratch. Instead you already have a foundation of knowledge, which helps to understand how the new vehicle is different.
Which brings us back to SARS-CoV-2. We already know a great deal about Coronaviruses. We already know about SARS. In fact, a vaccine for SARS was developed more than 15 years ago.
Let's assume for just a moment that all those researchers at all those pharmaceutical companies aren't idiots. A new virus comes along, which has a lot of similarities to a known virus. Do you think they're going to throw out nearly 20 years of knowledge and start over from scratch? Or are they going to compare the new virus to similar known viruses and check out known vulnerabilities? Are they just going to put on blindfolds and start throwing darts, hoping one will hit, or are they going to take what they already know and attempt to isolate the difference?
So the vaccine development didn't begin 2 months before the vaccines went into trials. The vaccine development has been ongoing for 20 years.
Now let's talk about medicine, since you want to conflate medication development with vaccine development. It makes as much sense as comparing toilet paper with toothpaste, but I'll humor you.
Vaccine development is typically pushed by health agencies, in response to a particular disease. The WHO, CDC, NIH and others work with educational and pharmaceutical groups to facilitate the development of a vaccine in response to a specific disease which poses a serious health risk. In other words, the money comes first. It's like someone taking you to the casino and giving you money to gamble with.
Medicine development originates within the pharmaceutical companies depending upon potential profitability of the medicine.
To simplify it again, when your house is on fire, you call the fire department. When you find out your wife is pregnant with twins you make a financial decision to add on to your existing house, sell and buy a new house, or just deal with the overcrowded conditions.
Many medicines end up effective against diseases which don't exist. So the medicine, which would be profitable sits until the insurance companies accept the new disease as something they will cover. "Shift Work Disorder", "Attention Deficit Disorder" and many eating and sleeping disorders come to mind. It doesn't do any good to market a prescription medication if the insurance companies aren't going to pay for it.
You've probably heard of Viagra. How many of those little blue pills would have been sold if every insurance company refused to cover pills to help guys get erections? How much would Pfizer have spent on marketing if the consumer cost was more than most people could afford?
Another significant difference between a vaccine and a medication is the effectiveness. A vaccine is typically one, or two shots which provides protection for a number of years. Medication is usually something taken regularly for an extended period of time. You might take an antibiotic 4 times a day for 2 weeks (and repeat the next time it hurts to piss). You don't just take one pill and the infection is no longer a problem. What this means is negative reactions to a vaccine usually show up very quickly. However, negative effects from medication can take months and even years to develop, because the effect is cumulative. Taking 1 200 MG ibuprofen probably isn't going to cause a problem. Taking 3200 MG a day for 6 months probably will cause a problem.
Do you understand the difference now?
Your last point is valid. Any time you take any medicine, or receive a vaccine you are exposing yourself to a risk. And in many cases, you're not going to receive compensation if something goes wrong. Even if you do receive compensation, it will likely take many years and by the time you, or your heirs, receive compensation, you'll be lucky to get a dime of every dollar owed to you. That is not a problem limited to companies exempted from liability.
But, figuring out, based on "if something goes wrong" is a simple math problem. There have been about 34 million identified cases of COVID-19 in the US, with 606,000 or so deaths. That means if you get Covid you've got about a 1. 5% chance of dying.
There have been over 300 million doses of the vaccine administered in the US, with 3 deaths attributed to the vaccine. That means your chance of dying because you were vaccinated is. 000000001%.
Let's simplify again. Catching Covid is 15,000,000 times more likely to kill you than getting vaccinated against Covid. And just like if you're one of the. 000000001% who die from the vaccine, ain't nobody going to send you a check if you die from Covid.
[QUOTE=Nounce;2578723]Are you sure current Covid vaccines only took 3 weeks?
I just want to add the Covid vaccine development time is shorten partly because I have read that there are royalty free technology pooling so that helps and obviously the governments put a lot of money behind it helps too, but I don't know how much speed up is a result of those.[/QUOTE]These are just excuses in the anti vaxer movement. The mRNA technology has been in development for nearly 20 yrs. When the Covid-19 outbreak started, one of the only good deeds the Chinese did was to publish the genetic code for the Spike protein of the virus (it would have been identified by sequencing sooner or later in the west) but it did give a few weeks head start. Then the mRNA envelope and technology and gene splicing know how was already in place, so the actual vaccine development went really fast, just a few weeks, then the trials phase 1,2,3 all happened as normally would, looking at the same statistical end points as pertain to any peer reviewed study. The thing that helped ironically was the fact that the virus raged fast during the time of the study, allowing more in the placebo arm to get infected and reaching statistical significance sooner. If you all remember even as Trump would pressure the scientists to announce it before the election, Fauci et al, would comment that we just don't know when we will hit the end point. So finally we did in November and the safety profile to that point was stellar. Since then hundreds of millions of doses later, and about a year since the start of the phase 3 trials, it's really hard to make any reasonable arguement about short term safety. Now looking at prior vaccine trials the vast majority of issues that ever emerged, did so within that time frame, so realistically what is left is in the realm of paranoia. That won't stop the anti vaxer crowd, but the reality is that these things are proving about as darn safe as the air we breathe. Full FDA approval is forthcoming.
[QUOTE=Nounce;2578723]Are you sure current Covid vaccines only took 3 weeks?
I just want to add the Covid vaccine development time is shorten partly because I have read that there are royalty free technology pooling so that helps and obviously the governments put a lot of money behind it helps too, but I don't know how much speed up is a result of those.[/QUOTE][URL]https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/12/moderna-covid-19-vaccine-design.html[/URL]
[QUOTE=GeneHickman;2578730]These are just excuses in the anti vaxer movement. The mRNA technology has been in development for nearly 20 yrs. When the Covid-19 outbreak started, one of the only good deeds the Chinese did was to publish the genetic code for the Spike protein of the virus (it would have been identified by sequencing sooner or later in the west) but it did give a few weeks head start. Then the mRNA envelope and technology and gene splicing know how was already in place, so the actual vaccine development went really fast, just a few weeks, then the trials phase 1,2,3 all happened as normally would, looking at the same statistical end points as pertain to any peer reviewed study. The thing that helped ironically was the fact that the virus raged fast during the time of the study, allowing more in the placebo arm to get infected and reaching statistical significance sooner. If you all remember even as Trump would pressure the scientists to announce it before the election, Fauci et al, would comment that we just don't know when we will hit the end point. So finally we did in November and the safety profile to that point was stellar. Since then hundreds of millions of doses later, and about a year since the start of the phase 3 trials, it's really hard to make any reasonable arguement about short term safety. Now looking at prior vaccine trials the vast majority of issues that ever emerged, did so within that time frame, so realistically what is left is in the realm of paranoia. That won't stop the anti vaxer crowd, but the reality is that these things are proving about as darn safe as the air we breathe. Full FDA approval is forthcoming.[/QUOTE]I am in the University of Chicago Moderna study I joined in Aug the MD running the study was telling me in Sept and Oct they were 100% confident in the results they were seeing.
Then 5 or 6 days after the election they made that announcement, they waited until after that date, that was clearly done to fuck Trump.
[QUOTE=Nounce;2578723]Are you sure current Covid vaccines only took 3 weeks?
I just want to add the Covid vaccine development time is shorten partly because I have read that there are royalty free technology pooling so that helps and obviously the governments put a lot of money behind it helps too, but I don't know how much speed up is a result of those.[/QUOTE]I was speaking in hyperbole when I said 3 weeks. We know it was not developed in the YEARS that is standard for something of that nature. And again, I am no antivaxer. I do not go around trying to convince people either way. You decide what is best for you to do with your own body. The name calling and attempts to shame do not work on me. You should be able to forgive a mf that may not be on board with something like this when shit like the Tuskegee Experiment and other medical experimentation was done to their ancestors.
[QUOTE=MrEnternational;2578763]I was speaking in hyperbole when I said 3 weeks. We know it was not developed in the YEARS that is standard for something of that nature.[/QUOTE]There was a 10 year head start on Mrna vaccines that went into this specific covid vaccine--its been tested and and developed very much in accordance with other vaccines. And with more people in more trials han any other vaccine.
[QUOTE=MrEnternational;2578763]I was speaking in hyperbole when I said 3 weeks. We know it was not developed in the YEARS that is standard for something of that nature. And again, I am no antivaxer. I do not go around trying to convince people either way. You decide what is best for you to do with your own body. The name calling and attempts to shame do not work on me. You should be able to forgive a mf that may not be on board with something like this when shit like the Tuskegee Experiment and other medical experimentation was done to their ancestors.[/QUOTE]I hope you are not responding to me. I am adding to your reply about vaccine development with some additional info that I think is valid, it is nothing against your reply or your view.
[QUOTE=MrEnternational;2578763]I was speaking in hyperbole when I said 3 weeks. We know it was not developed in the YEARS that is standard for something of that nature. And again, I am no antivaxer. I do not go around trying to convince people either way. You decide what is best for you to do with your own body. The name calling and attempts to shame do not work on me. You should be able to forgive a mf that may not be on board with something like this when shit like the Tuskegee Experiment and other medical experimentation was done to their ancestors.[/QUOTE]Mr. E, I do understand your perspective, but that said, the first people eligible for and that's took this thing were the medical personnel on the front lines. All races and mixes have as well. So if you can't see the difference well.
Even though I am mostly libertarian, I can def. Say that in a public health emergency like this, there is a role for more state pressure. I suspect more mandates will be coming after full FDA auth. And needing a vaccine for international travel could easily come to pass, and I personally wouldn't have a problem with it.
[QUOTE=MarquisdeSade1;2578744]I am in the University of Chicago Moderna study I joined in Aug the MD running the study was telling me in Sept and Oct they were 100% confident in the results they were seeing.
Then 5 or 6 days after the election they made that announcement, they waited until after that date, that was clearly done to fuck Trump.[/QUOTE]They didn't want to wait too long, because people were dying (not even 1 week after election day they announced it was ready).
So I want to know, how many people died because they delayed the vax until after election day just so they could fuck orange man?
[QUOTE=Nounce;2578771]I hope you are not responding to me. I am adding to your reply about vaccine development with some additional info that I think is valid, it is nothing against your reply or your view.[/QUOTE]No, not you. I am saying in general. Jj got sick with the vaccine by going to Bogota and Medellin. I have been all over Colombia, all over Brazil, all over Dominican Republic, all over Thailand, all over the USA and other places. I haven't gotten shit. So as Elvis was saying, if Jj is the poster child for antivaxxers, then I am on that same poster right along with him, but for the opposite reason. Not that I am wishing to get shit or trying to get shit, but you have to figure if anybody would have gotten shit then it would have been me.
Almost any and everything you read will echo that around 99% of the CoVid deaths are in unvaccinated people. I copied a bunch of links below. They are not all parroting the CDC's findings.
(Which should be sufficient for anyone who isn't a conspiracy theorist). Many of the links are reported from individual states or counties (Maryland, North Carolina, Virginia, California, Washington).
The uniformity of the results might lead a rational person to actively seek vaccination. You are not guaranteed against getting the virus, but you are far more likely to survive it.
Isn't that enough?? Do we really need to know exactly how the virus operates or how the vaccine was conceived or who profits or who scratches their balls.
[URL]https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/unvaccinated-individuals-now-account-for-the-vast-majority-of-covid-19-hospitalizations-and-deaths-in-the-u-s-according-to-available-data/[/URL]
[URL]https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/07/06/maryland-says-100-of-june-covid-deaths-were-among-unvaccinated-as-early-data-shows-similar-trend-nationally/[/URL]
[URL]https://www.wavy.com/covid-19-vaccine/ncdhhs-unvaccinated-make-up-more-than-99-percent-of-new-covid-cases-in-may-june/[/URL]
[URL]https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/nearly-all-covid-deaths-in-us-are-now-among-unvaccinated[/URL]
[URL]https://www.kpbs.org/news/2021/jul/07/unvaccinated-san-diegans-covid-cases-deaths/[/URL]
[URL]https://fredericksburg.com/news/local/99-of-virginians-who-died-from-covid-19-since-january-were-unvaccinated/article_6f4be63e-cc02-54ce-b306-ae82dfa1b406.html[/URL]
[URL]https://www.columbian.com/news/2021/jul/07/study-nearly-97-percent-of-clark-county-covid-19-cases-were-unvaccinated/[/URL]
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2578138]Got to tell you MDS, people's naivete on China is amazing. Somehow American deaths from Corona were Trump's fault, and China is blameless. How the hell did that happen? Clearly, China has a great PR team.[/QUOTE]Here's a quote from Mitt Romney a few months ago if you can believe it.
Sen. Mitt Romney said Friday that the world is snoozing while China grows as a threat to civil rights, free economies and democracy — and that the Trump administration is failing to build a global coalition to compete against it.
The Chinese "made it very clear that their objective is to become the world's dominant player, to replace the USA As the leading nation on the planet, to replace the USA Economically, militarily and geopolitically," Romney said in a webcast to the conservative Sutherland Institute.
He added that America and the world have not paid attention to the threat.
"We as a nation and the West have been sitting back not worrying much about China, thinking about them as a developing country without recognizing that they are already the second most powerful economy in the world, that they're investing as much as we are in military hardware. ".
He said China achieving its goal as the world's superpower should concern people everywhere.
Chinese leaders "believe in an authoritarian state where there are not two parties, where there's not a free press, where opposition leaders are jailed or worse," he said.
Romney said China gives each of its residents a "social score" that goes higher if they do such things as attend pro-government rallies, but decreases if they go to church, talk to dissidents or attend pro-democracy rallies.
"If your point total gets low enough, you can't get a job," he said. "This is the way they tend to manage their people. They represent a dramatic departure from the principles of liberal democracy that have characterized the great nations of the earth. "
Romney complained that China has learned to use capitalism well but doesn't play by the rules that other nations do.
"They're now cowboy capitalists applying principles that are effective but illegal in most countries," he said.
For example, he said Indonesia produces 80% of the world's nickel used for stainless steel. He said China bought up Indonesia's stainless steel companies and nickel suppliers, and then announced it would not export any outside the county. That would amount to an illegal monopoly elsewhere, which is putting stainless steel companies in jeopardy.
"China does this industry after industry and we and the rest of the world sit there with our mouth hanging open, not knowing what to do," he said. "The answer is. Don't allow China to sell those products in our marketplace. "
But he said China has been spreading billions of dollars in foreign aid worldwide, leading many recipient countries not to complain about Chinese abuses.
"They're looking at spending a half a trillion dollars in Iran. So, of course, Iran's going to be a real friend," Romney said. He adds that similar spending in the Middle East likely has led Islamic countries to be silent about Chinese mistreatment of its Islamic Uighur minority, including beatings and widespread concentration camps.