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[quote=bill buxton]
people are people wherever you go, never let your guard down and allways look around you and get a feel for the area.
they take your picture and send it to guys down the street you have never ever seen before. the cell phone is a great tool in the hands of scammer. just do not be over trusting with anyone even guys from your own country.
be ready, play safe. b. b.[/quote]
well said bb
my pet peeve: some brothers in this forum comming from a far away country, i won't say where, but let just say that the abbreviation is u.s.a, where there is a highest hommocidal rate in the world, they take out a small portion of their incomes to vacation in the phillipines. yet they do some dump things like get tricked out by some street hustler in some card games and lost couple of hundred bucks and yet, to them, the country is dangerous and full of thieves.
i would rather lose two or three franklins in a card game than get my head blown up by some "loner" in a fast food restaurant in the so-called "the greatest country in the world."
the best judge of a great country is the number of people dying to get in.
[quote=columpuss]well said bb
my pet peeve: some brothers in this forum comming from a far away country, i won't say where, but let just say that the abbreviation is u.s.a, where there is a highest hommocidal rate in the world, they take out a small portion of their incomes to vacation in the phillipines. yet they do some dump things like get tricked out by some street hustler in some card games and lost couple of hundred bucks and yet, to them, the country is dangerous and full of thieves.
i would rather lose two or three franklins in a card game than get my head blown up by some "loner" in a fast food restaurant in the so-called "the greatest country in the world."[/quote]
El Socio06 ...You need help....I was in the same road as you are right now...in matters of getting girl....otherwise my life is as usual in dumps....I cannot guide you to become rich and succesfull or be a somebody..but by reading [url]www.askmen.com[/url] doc love article ..i can gaurentee you that you never be alone in your life even if you have pennies in your pants...you will always have a girlfriend....BUT to improve your social status or to get money...sorry dude...can't guide you....
do any mongers that go to the p.i feel good going into most restaurants an get greeted by a 12 gauge shotgun carrying security guard?or the bank,or embassy with a line of men with m-16 rifles?do beggars chase you down the streets at home?do the cops let you go when caught for a seatbelt violation after you give 100 p'"2 dollars" with your paperwork?can you be charged with a greater crime at home and get out of jail by negotiation with the cops without a trial,heering,court?do you have to buy property in someone else's name so you can own the property, and then get kicked out later on?can you pay local property taxes 2-3 times and watch the city official spend your money, and keep coming back for more?can you go past a line of waiting people20-30 or more and walk up the stairs "box of chocolate in hand" get your paperwork done in minutes at home?the answer is no,and that's why feeling safe here is not high on my list.u.s.a. that's all i know for the past 40 years right or wrong.but you will have your day in court and the cops will work for you rich or poor without extracting money's from your pocket.
yes time spent is a good way to judge facts, and opinions, and a six month stay i feel gave me some great insight into many things there.you can get killed walking your dogie anywhere in the world.but i do not worry about corruption meeting me face to face on the street at the level that there is here.i have never once had a cop want to sell me a girl for sex while he was in uniform!please tell me where else in the world they do this?mothers pimping out the kids and getting you to pay the cops to get out of jail,after they split the take.
bar girls, working and going out with guys for sex-money and later crying [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url]?and being with the guys many times before."the marines on trial there for [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url]".what a wild west show this place is,do what you want and "pay" later.the problem her is not all with the locals it with the influx of the road scholars from everywhere else in the world.the arrogant ones "that could not poor [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140][CodeWord140][/url] out of a rubber boot with the instructions scribbled on the heel".the guys that think "i am rich i can do what i want".it's a reaction from locals driven by the foreign influx and thats the outcome get what we can before they go home.you might say not true,but how can these things happen if the law is the law?you are not guilty until prov-en so,not here just pay first.i guess you get from life what you put into it, but what about the foreign guy 2-3 years back that was shot 15-20 times outside angelis while riding a motorcycle and his wife sitting right behind him and never getting a scratch?now they say she and some cops were behind it for insurance and othermoneys.why did the government say that it was just a murder.and after investigation by outsiders found to have links to cops,local government.why did the government take or try to take the new airport terminal thats built from the german company that built it????
why do they sell human live bodies of children in manila for 10,000 p?200 u.s. dollars.this is a ring that was caught in march selling live people for organ's,i might still have the front page newspaper clipping here.so i guess i will take my chances here, u.s. and wait my turn for the upcoming shit storm hitting my area.own my belongings here and know that they will not be taken by anyone that wants them.pay my taxes and get full credit at the time of the transaction. and not see some thief with his family on vacation using the tax money he just collected from me to subsidize his trip at some resort in the p.i.
b.b.
El Socio06,
No money equals no pussy. It does not matter where you go. You always pay for it one way or another. You might get a "freebie" if the woman thinks that she can get more out of you later but you have to present good prospects for that.
Based on what you said it appears that money, or a lack of it rather, is your most immediate problem. You need to break out of the low income Latino profile and not just because of pussy. Take a look at your financial situation and see if there is anything that you can do without e.g. cable TV, bloated cell phone plan or more car than you can afford. Next, take a serious look at what you can do to improve your earnings, maybe your job pays more for people with certification; if that is the case then get certified using the money you squeezed out of your budget cuts. Lastly, finish your 4-yr degree, you are already half-way there and with all of the evening classes and online options there is not reason not to do so. Taking one class a semester is better than nothing and will bring you closer to your goals.
None of this is going to be easy and your hand may well be the only pussy that you get on a regular basis for the next few years, but when you eventually get a job that provides a good income it would be worth the sacrifice. Forget about LTR in the US it will only bring you more drama. There are fine mojadas who work and would hook up with you but you have to able to offer them shelter at least.
[QUOTE=Chocha Monger]El Socio06,
No money equals no pussy. It does not matter where you go. You always pay for it one way or another. You might get a "freebie" if the woman thinks that she can get more out of you later but you have to present good prospects for that.
Based on what you said it appears that money, or a lack of it rather, is your most immediate problem. You need to break out of the low income Latino profile and not just because of pussy. Take a look at your financial situation and see if there is anything that you can do without e.g. cable TV, bloated cell phone plan or more car than you can afford. Next, take a serious look at what you can do to improve your earnings, maybe your job pays more for people with certification; if that is the case then get certified using the money you squeezed out of your budget cuts. Lastly, finish your 4-yr degree, you are already half-way there and with all of the evening classes and online options there is not reason not to do so. Taking one class a semester is better than nothing and will bring you closer to your goals.
None of this is going to be easy and your hand may well be the only pussy that you get on a regular basis for the next few years, but when you eventually get a job that provides a good income it would be worth the sacrifice. Forget about LTR in the US it will only bring you more drama. There are fine mojadas who work and would hook up with you but you have to able to offer them shelter at least.[/QUOTE]
You have it right there... no matter the country you are always paying for it... my child support would support most guys in South America with a chica and a few visits to the casas... get the schooling or find that right job... at 200k plus I never have enough
been away from the PI, and internet boards about the PI, but it seems little has changed. Yes there are scammers there, more than in most countries perhaps, but there are not many places with those sweet LBFMs available for ll nighters for less than the cost of a good dinner in the US.
The US is currently a VERY screwed up country too with the worst government in our history. But the "culture of corruption" in the republican party is done on such a grand scale (Abramoff alone put MILLIONS of dirty dollars into the hands of crooked Congressman) that the poor Filipinos seeking a few Piso seem like Pikers in comparison.
Also, despite driving in the PI NUMEROUS times, and getting pulled over twice (for legitimate infractions of which I was guilty), BOTH times I was let go without paying a single Piso. In the US you would have had to go to traffic school at minimum. I was NEVER pulled over for a made up violation, NEVER!
One time a taxi driver attempted to overcharge me for taking my surfboard to the airport. We were arguing in the street when a drunken PNP officer out of uniform (he showed me his ID) camev up and asked ME (the WHITE GUY) what the problem was. I told him the taxi driver was trying to overcharge me because I was American, then he lit into the driver (in Tagalog so I could only understand a portion of the exchange) and threatened him with violence if he did not accept the fare I was offering. He got red in the face and was SO angry both the cop's wife and I were worried he was going to pull his gun on the driver, she told me so as she tried to calm him down. The driver eventually relented and I profusely thanked the cop. He never asked me for a single Piso for his assistance.
None of this is to discount the presence of crooked cops, or scams, in the PI. You DO need to use good judgment at all times. But reading these whiny reports about how lousy the PI is, and how great America is, make me want to wretch just as surely as if I had eaten Balut. To ALL those who think shit don't stink in the US (most Filipinos think that but they can be forgiven as their views of the US are based on television, NOT reality) I say "STAY HOME THEN.
On a BRIGHTER note: I wish there were more expats in the PI like CanContrib, and LESS of the sex tourists who mistreat the babae. Yes some GROs are cheaters and swindlers, but there are also LOTS of very sweet, guilless, girls who come from desperately poor families with no alternative but to send their daughters to Manila, Cebu, Angeles etc. And MANY of these girls are manipulated and abused by foreign sex tourists (The Whites are almost as bad as the Japanese who are not nearly as bad as the Arabs).
My point is that guys need to wake up and smell the roses. A large part of the reason for the scammers is because they have previously been cheated by sex tourists from rich countries and they have learned to turn the tables and bvecome victimizer rather than victim.
From Colombia to PI, Surfer's reports have the same theme: how the big bad sex tourists are mistreating those poor, underpriveleged gals who sell their pussies.
What bullshit!
Most mongers I've met are well-educated, well-travelled and altogether reasonable. Likewise, most PI bar girls I've met are fun and reasonable.
I'm sure that there are exceptions to both groups. But why the obsession with the exceptions? And the virtuous, holier-than-thou tone?
Come on Surfer! Why don't you just admit that you work for a NGO that is trying to impose american values worldwide. Or that you are deep cover for NOW (National Organization for Women).
I can barely prevent my stomach from heaving when I read your stuff on the Colombia boards but to have to read it here is just too much, especially after the fight we had to get rid of your friends, On The To and Junior.
I was thus moved:
There was once a monger called Surfer
Mostly he read, never moving his cursor
But then lo and behold!
He emerged to criticize and scold
Till all wished he'd return to being a lurker.
Don
Hit the gym, and give off an air of confidence and money...while working to acheive that monetary goal by going back to school and making some budget cuts. Remember, in this world nowadays, image is everything. Play up your latin lover stereotype...are you boricua cuz i know crazy amounts of women who hunt just for peurto rican men. You just gotta hit the gym, eat right, and work towards getting your wallet fatter. It's easier said than done, but it can be done.
hey dude,
it is because of [blue][deleted by admin][/blue] like you i never choose to make posts or share my photos. surfer has made more quality posts than you have ever shagged in women. you are all [blue][deleted by admin][/blue] and someone who has to make up multiple identifications here on the isg to amuse yourself and who has to live in a fantasy world as you are nothing but a wannabee monger. surfer i hope you just ignore this [blue][deleted by admin][/blue] and keep up your good work or do as i do and not post jack shit. [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord132][CodeWord132][/url] don and your multiple id's get really old in a hurry and i can see by the number of comments other members make to your posts they are all sick of you and your bullshit as well. from what i can see not one member has made a comment to a post you and your ids have made. that should tell you something or do you just not get it?. you really must have serious issues that you have to spend so much time on a computer writing posts to your various identifications on here. i see by reading your previous posts you seem to be a real trouble maker, and if it wasn't for your friendship with jackson i am sure you would would not be here along with your prov 01 and guinness. i am sure i am making this post on behalf of many other members on here [blue][deleted by admin][/blue].
[size=-2][b][u]editor's note[/u]:[/b] [blue]this report was edited in accordance with the forum's zero tolerance policy regarding reports containing any [u]personal attacks or derogatory comments[/u] directed towards another forum member or the forum membership in general.
please be advised that forum members who succeed in having three or more of their reports deleted for personal attacks, racial epithets or other derogatory comments, will be banned under the forum's serial antagonist policy.[/blue][/size]
bb
corrupted cops, pimps selling kids or whatever it is, beggars chasing you down the street, the big picture here is nobody dies. no ****s kidnapping kid, [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url], mutilate and kill them.
guess where i live? a little corner of the world where it breeds serial killers
300 points for the correct response. and no it's not some 3rd world country.
my uncle has his retirement savings wiped out by some dope heads running what was once, one of the biggest companies in the world and was once endorsed by the president. guess the company and the president, and no he didn't take any contribution money because people don't do that in the west.
the syndrome here is, it is ok to be stabbed by my brother than robbed by my neighbor.
I am not saying that the states are great just giving my personal feelings and insight into potential problems as I viewed them.PERSONAL MY OPINION not trying to say anything other than what might pop up for a new guy entering the wild west.
And after my 6 month visit I would rather be there than some other so called great places in the world.Visit is the term not retire or escape whatever is closing in on me like many others have.Where else can you get by on a small retirement check every month and have an 18 year old gf that thinks you are rich?Like I said many times,IF ALL THE FOREIGN GUYS WERE RICH THEY WOULD NOT LIVE HERE.Likethe foreigner that told me his bar was making money,sure,taking in pesos and spending the same.I said take in dollars,pounds,euro,and spend pesos and then you will be making money.Everyone here wants to be a big fish,but remember it is a small pond,not hard.The big fish keep on doing what they do in there own country and don't try to impress the wizards here.How hard is it anyway?most everyone I knew here was drunk or well on his way by noon.Delusions of grandeur and foolish people loosing there money I heard it all go figure.Ask a bar girl where the foreigners leave there brains? at the airport they say.
Through the eyes of a regular guy, B.B...
Wow - is this the begining of paid political anouncements on this board?
I didn't sign on for this stuff.
[QUOTE=Surfer]been away from the PI, and internet boards about the PI, but it seems little has changed. Yes there are scammers there, more than in most countries perhaps, but there are not many places with those sweet LBFMs available for ll nighters for less than the cost of a good dinner in the US.
The US is currently a VERY screwed up country too with the worst government in our history. But the "culture of corruption" in the republican party is done on such a grand scale (Abramoff alone put MILLIONS of dirty dollars into the hands of crooked Congressman) that the poor Filipinos seeking a few Piso seem like Pikers in comparison.
Also, despite driving in the PI NUMEROUS times, and getting pulled over twice (for legitimate infractions of which I was guilty), BOTH times I was let go without paying a single Piso. In the US you would have had to go to traffic school at minimum. I was NEVER pulled over for a made up violation, NEVER!
One time a taxi driver attempted to overcharge me for taking my surfboard to the airport. We were arguing in the street when a drunken PNP officer out of uniform (he showed me his ID) camev up and asked ME (the WHITE GUY) what the problem was. I told him the taxi driver was trying to overcharge me because I was American, then he lit into the driver (in Tagalog so I could only understand a portion of the exchange) and threatened him with violence if he did not accept the fare I was offering. He got red in the face and was SO angry both the cop's wife and I were worried he was going to pull his gun on the driver, she told me so as she tried to calm him down. The driver eventually relented and I profusely thanked the cop. He never asked me for a single Piso for his assistance.
None of this is to discount the presence of crooked cops, or scams, in the PI. You DO need to use good judgment at all times. But reading these whiny reports about how lousy the PI is, and how great America is, make me want to wretch just as surely as if I had eaten Balut. To ALL those who think shit don't stink in the US (most Filipinos think that but they can be forgiven as their views of the US are based on television, NOT reality) I say "STAY HOME THEN.
On a BRIGHTER note: I wish there were more expats in the PI like CanContrib, and LESS of the sex tourists who mistreat the babae. Yes some GROs are cheaters and swindlers, but there are also LOTS of very sweet, guilless, girls who come from desperately poor families with no alternative but to send their daughters to Manila, Cebu, Angeles etc. And MANY of these girls are manipulated and abused by foreign sex tourists (The Whites are almost as bad as the Japanese who are not nearly as bad as the Arabs).
My point is that guys need to wake up and smell the roses. A large part of the reason for the scammers is because they have previously been cheated by sex tourists from rich countries and they have learned to turn the tables and bvecome victimizer rather than victim.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Surfer]been away from the PI, and internet boards about the PI, but it seems little has changed. Yes there are scammers there, more than in most countries perhaps, but there are not many places with those sweet LBFMs available for ll nighters for less than the cost of a good dinner in the US.
The US is currently a VERY screwed up country too with the worst government in our history. But the "culture of corruption" in the republican party is done on such a grand scale (Abramoff alone put MILLIONS of dirty dollars into the hands of crooked Congressman) that the poor Filipinos seeking a few Piso seem like Pikers in comparison.
Also, despite driving in the PI NUMEROUS times, and getting pulled over twice (for legitimate infractions of which I was guilty), BOTH times I was let go without paying a single Piso. In the US you would have had to go to traffic school at minimum. I was NEVER pulled over for a made up violation, NEVER!
One time a taxi driver attempted to overcharge me for taking my surfboard to the airport. We were arguing in the street when a drunken PNP officer out of uniform (he showed me his ID) camev up and asked ME (the WHITE GUY) what the problem was. I told him the taxi driver was trying to overcharge me because I was American, then he lit into the driver (in Tagalog so I could only understand a portion of the exchange) and threatened him with violence if he did not accept the fare I was offering. He got red in the face and was SO angry both the cop's wife and I were worried he was going to pull his gun on the driver, she told me so as she tried to calm him down. The driver eventually relented and I profusely thanked the cop. He never asked me for a single Piso for his assistance.
None of this is to discount the presence of crooked cops, or scams, in the PI. You DO need to use good judgment at all times. But reading these whiny reports about how lousy the PI is, and how great America is, make me want to wretch just as surely as if I had eaten Balut. To ALL those who think shit don't stink in the US (most Filipinos think that but they can be forgiven as their views of the US are based on television, NOT reality) I say "STAY HOME THEN.
On a BRIGHTER note: I wish there were more expats in the PI like CanContrib, and LESS of the sex tourists who mistreat the babae. Yes some GROs are cheaters and swindlers, but there are also LOTS of very sweet, guilless, girls who come from desperately poor families with no alternative but to send their daughters to Manila, Cebu, Angeles etc. And MANY of these girls are manipulated and abused by foreign sex tourists (The Whites are almost as bad as the Japanese who are not nearly as bad as the Arabs).
My point is that guys need to wake up and smell the roses. A large part of the reason for the scammers is because they have previously been cheated by sex tourists from rich countries and they have learned to turn the tables and bvecome victimizer rather than victim.[/QUOTE]I think this board is about info and it was a culture shock to look at a shotgunyealding guard at a mickey D's when trying to eat my happy meal.The raod checks by PNP holding an M-16.The reason I posted this is because several guys including myself until I went there never had the experience in the differences of there own countries verses this one.It is not just about fucking some bar gal and telling about how many times you got your NUT,and weather she spit afterwards.I guarantee that many guys if they have the time to stay in the Philippines 4-6 months will have similar things they saw or heard about from longtime players.How hard is it to get a gal in any area of the P.I. Anyway,toothless,bald,fat,skinney,black white or green you have the cash the gals will follow.Just a slight difference than in America,OZ, or other places on the planet I am sure, or we would all not want to go and taste the fruits of DA JUNGLE.
B.B...
Not being American,I dont think I should comment on USA politics,though I have lived in the PI for the last 14 years and speak Cebuano and Tagalog.However I would like to weigh in on the multiple ID issue,I had coffee with Guiness at Ziggurat Restaurant,While Prov 1 was tapping away at the 88 Internet Cafe Across the street,Guiness called Dashing Don at the Manila Peninsula where he really somehow registered himself as Senator Real name.There is no possibile way they could be the same guy.They are not even from the same state.For example one is from a Western State and the other is from a Northwestern state.I will be fixing travel arrangements for 2 of them visiting Cebu,So Anybody can always PM me if there are any other doubts,Back to regular programing
[QUOTE=Surfer]
On a BRIGHTER note: I wish there were more expats in the PI like CanContrib, and LESS of the sex tourists who mistreat the babae. Yes some GROs are cheaters and swindlers, but there are also LOTS of very sweet, guilless, girls who come from desperately poor families with no alternative but to send their daughters to Manila, Cebu, Angeles etc. And MANY of these girls are manipulated and abused by foreign sex tourists (The Whites are almost as bad as the Japanese who are not nearly as bad as the Arabs).
My point is that guys need to wake up and smell the roses. A large part of the reason for the scammers is because they have previously been cheated by sex tourists from rich countries and they have learned to turn the tables and bvecome victimizer rather than victim.[/QUOTE]Hi Surfer While I agree with you that there are many nice sweet guiless girls,There are plenty of scammers also,Being Foriegn looking But Filipino speaking allows me to eavesdrop on many bargirls chatting "girls talk" and one of their favorite topics is really discussing how to squeeze money out of the old stupid goats AKA Matandang Tangang Gurang na Kano.They also prefer westerners compared to Koreans and Arabs and in many cases Filipinos,Since They are better treated by most westerners compared to most Arabs and Koreans.Binababoy sila ng mga Arabo at Koreano.Personally I am active in Bantay Bata which is a local NGO that fights Child abuse and yes Kiddy Fuckers.But just because you believe strongly in something,You should not impose your views.Anyway my 2 centavos opinion
I just did some research.
Remember Numero One from the 'Who should be given their own thread' section? Well, Total Package is a dead ringer for Numero One. They repeat the same stuff. Throw in Chivas1 and you have all of On The Go's monikers. At least at the time of writing.
Guinness deserves special mention as he is like a bloodhound when it comes to sniffing out On The Go's latest ID. Well done Guinness!!
Back to Surfer: Will CL's post change Surfer's position on the multiple ID issue? Not likely. (BTW, CL, thanks for acknowledging my position as Senator). When Surfer doesn't understand an issue or feels threatened, he immediately throws up the 'multiple ID' smokescreen.
We all just have to hope that Surfer forgets to wax his board some day and when he takes a header, it ends up his rear end.
What an epitaph!
Don
[QUOTE=Billpsu]I didn't sign on for this stuff.[/QUOTE]
A political thread on ISG? What is this website comming to?
You would think that by starting this thread, Jackson is trying to clean up the other P.I. threads so that our distinguished brethren can bicker to their hearts content but it does not seem to be working. Maybe give it a few days with the hope that the posters in question will get the picture and only post information or field reports.
Mattrick
It's not political. It is that I despite guys who come to the PIs, has green horns, got taken by real life and bad mouth about it.
They had their ways with the girls for a couple of bucks and yet something happened to them on their ways to get some actions, it is the end of the world.
They came to visit the Las Vegas of the PIs and they think the whole country is such. The country is not better or worse than others. When you come to look for sex, you are more likely surrrounded by shady characters.
Its nice to see The Great Mattrick back. He always shows up when there's a fight, usually to complain about the participants.
When he's not complaining, he's all over the place--a true cyber traveller. In the last two months he's posted in: Cuba, Canada, Brazil, Hong Kong, Macau, Philippines, Thailand (On The Go's thread), Morality of Prostitution, Special Interests, Colombia and more. I can't memorize them all.
He has a passion for travel, that's all I can say. And of course I applaud him for that.
Don
[QUOTE=Mattrick]A political thread on ISG? What is this website comming to?
You would think that by starting this thread, Jackson is trying to clean up the other P.I. threads so that our distinguished brethren can bicker to their hearts content but it does not seem to be working. Maybe give it a few days with the hope that the posters in question will get the picture and only post information or field reports.[/QUOTE]
Why would anyone with a good job in another country go to the P.I. and live?Maybe lazy?running from something?Or just wanting to escape life's general bull****.The P.I. through me eyes not a 2-3 week tourist but a fact finding person with enough money to stay anywhere in the world thinks this is a great playground for adult men to go.With other wide scale problems that most of the people do not know about.
I have told people I know about the bar scene and they listen just as I once did to a friend telling the yarn's.I am sure as God made green apples they think it's all bula bula.Thats ok that keeps the flood of people from hitting the area and keeping it for the ones that know the difference.Many guys from around the world come here and I have talked to many that have come here for years and they all have stories about things they saw or heard.I think I would have liked to read posts about other things here than just bar gals.I have many hours invested here also as I am sure many others do also trying to answer many questions about daily life in this country.I might be alone in feeling that asking a simple question and getting the answer in return being "why don't you read the board"not very helpful.
Obviously the easiest thing to do here is find a gal right?what about transportation,general mongering questions,air travel to other places,travel by boats,cost of buying general merchandise.Who wants to find out on his own all the right ways of doing business.Yes maby You or I found out the hard way and that's fine but whats wrong with giving someone a break?I am sure someone gave you a break one time or another.
I am telling the info here like I would want someone to have it told to me STRAIGHT UP.Where else can you live and eat and have a social life on 1000. or 2000, dollars a month? not here.And even support a family on that.Why would the government check camera phones computers for dirty pictures and other stuff when returning back home.It is because it's different here, and there is a small element of unsavory people that come and also live here.Yes the P.I. and also America and all over the globe.I am stating the facts about what I saw and lived not trashing or prasing anything.I posted last year because until now sim cards were not used in my country.That is another big question and with my phone I had to have the line opened, for it to work there.Yes it was stolen because after a while I let my guard down,ME, and I was too trusting and that's when I lost.Being complacent in a strange place, acting like I had all the answers, well that's what happens,no big deal.
Its all good info and there are no stupid questions to be asked here,Why not a new thread on every board here about ground and air transportation?I know it would have Ben a great place for me to spend some quality pc time.
Loosen up guys nobody has to prove anything here and who has all the answers to every question? not I.
Play Safe,
B.B...
[QUOTE=Dashing Don]Its nice to see The Great Mattrick back. He always shows up when there's a fight, usually to complain about the participants.
When he's not complaining, he's all over the place--a true cyber traveller. In the last two months he's posted in: Cuba, Canada, Brazil, Hong Kong, Macau, Philippines, Thailand (On The Go's thread), Morality of Prostitution, Special Interests, Colombia and more. I can't memorize them all.
He has a passion for travel, that's all I can say. And of course I applaud him for that.
Don[/QUOTE]
You are correct Senator Don in you assessment of Mattrick. It's funny, in all his posts he has yet to post a field report about a WOMAN! It make me wonder about this character...
[QUOTE=El Socio06]Well, guys.
After reading through all the posts here, I think I can say that I have it the worst when it comes to LTR, without a doubt. You see, I'm not a black man, a white man nor an asian man. I am a US-born Latin from New York. You have no idea how LIMITED my options are in terms of LTR:
1) I fit the profile of US-born Latins having lower income. I do have a high school diploma and an associate degree but finished short of the 4-yr degree. Too much drama that I won't get into here. So no going over the world mongering for me.
2) My parents are usually the conservative type from the "homeland", which means that some of their fucked-up social and cultural values rubbed off on me. I have problems trying to loosen up when it came to meeting people of the opposite sex. The clubbing scene is a big turn-off for me. Even the social clubs around the city I have trouble getting traction in because the girls are already there with their boyfriends/fuck buddies/whatever or a bunch of girls are together and have this bad attitude. A lot of US-based Latins have the worst attributes from both their old culture and the US culture COMBINED. That is not to mention the stupid reggaeton/hip-hop crap that's the rage today. It's absolutely sickening!
3) Going outside the ethnic group/social group is a BIG problem because:
a) Latins in the US have this big stigma attached to them. Either they're looked at as criminals, illegal aliens or the machista-sexist type. I'm neither a criminal nor an illegal alien. And I'm pretty soft for a big guy. Shy even.
b) Again, Latins have this cultural pride thing and, as a result, I have problems trying to break through this barrier. It's stupid but that's what I have to live with.
4) Going back to the "homeland" to look for women is another BIG problem:
a) Most women there think that people coming over from the US already have money or SHOULD have money by now. I'm about as close to broke as possible. So I can't even afford to lie to a woman promising to take care of her because I already have enough drama paying the bills and I can't afford to tack on a woman who turns out to be a manipulating (rhymes with "witch").
b) On that point, you have to realize that Latin women in many countries treat men of the same ethnic group like CRAP. Either they feel that they have to get back at all the other men because of the way many men mistreat them or they have this superiority complex that hides their self-doubt.
c) Like I said before, I am neither black, white nor asian. So I can't even fake an "exotic" look.
So I get no luck with women in the same ethnic AND with women from other ethnic groups.
The real reason why I read this forum is to live through others' reports the fantasy of being that man who is desired, of that confident and well-off man who is adventerous and self-assured. In reality, I am just another nobody in a sea of nobodies. I feel that I can't even look at a woman because I'm afraid she'll report me for harrassment. Maybe I need psychological counseling.
At this point, I can certainly use some tips from the experts at this little panel here. I think LTR is the only way I will ever have a decent sexual relationship because I certainly don't have the goods for STR nor a bang-bang.[/QUOTE]
I went through a period like this in my early twenties....massive debt, people sueing me left and right, gaining weight, forced to drop out of college, shit low paying-physicaly demanding high stress job, no car, moving home with my parents who heaped vicious abuse (which I had to endure on pain of being thrown out homeless) on me nearly around the clock...as a result, I was basically a beaten down, no self esteem, nervous wreck, like our friend here. Needless to say, no girl woud even look at me (despite this, one of my mother's incessant harping points was "Get Married-because two people can live cheaper than one") Towards the end of that ordeal (having worked my ass off in this situation for two years, until I got a better job, and went back to school-a student loan disbursement funded my move out of Mom and Dad's house) I actually had to have a dental procedure to have enamel bonded back on my teeth as I had ground all of it off (while awake)
Anyways, after all of that, I realized years later that I actually came out ahead, because statistically speaking, that would have been the time for some litte bimbo to have gotten her claws into me......I'm sure that a celibate marriage, likely divorce and subsequent child support would have put me all in all in a place much further away from where I want my life to be than the "lost years" did.
B8k
[QUOTE=Artisttyp]I love the diversity of america but I'm tired of people taking and not giving back.Nowhere else in the world would this happen.You either contribute and be a part of the community as a whole or get out.You cant expect to be liked if you take jobs.People in europe are starting to feel the brunt of it as well it's draining any progress thats been made.Nobody would be racist if you hired americans and spent your money here instead of sending it home so more people can come here and the drain the system.Theres nothing racist about it just look at the stats.
Asians are the worst offenders of this world wide.[/QUOTE]
I am so sorry that I walked into this conversation. All I have to say is WRONG!!!!!!WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!WRONG!!!!!!!! AND WRONG AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!i I am not going to post my reasons why you are wrong, buecause I do not want to perpetuate a flame war even though I do have valid reasons which I will not discuss here. How ever I will say that as an american (a discusted one at that), fed up with the hollier then thou attitude and the people running the country, I have decided to work here and take my hard earnded dollars out of the country and if anyone I would encourage anyone albiet american or from other culture to do the same also. There is nothing unpatratiotic about it and I will not be silenced by bieng called a communist as it the fashion nowadays. BTW. I am not Mexican, black, chinese, polack, arab or a redneck hillbilly. I am a HUMAN, born on this planat and I dont see how race, color, creed, or religion has anything to do with it.
Reminds me of, well better not say.
So now you or anyone would like to flame me please do so as I will not respond and you will go into my ignore box, so feel free.
[QUOTE=DirkDingy]i concur. america is the greatest political entity in the history of mankind but our greatness is declining. america is great because of our protestant work ethic, rugged individualism,respect for the rule of law, and eternal optimism that is shared among our populace. we are also historically unique in that we'll kick your ass, help you up, patch ya up, and then declare no hard feelings.
unfortunately, our common cultural fabric is being eroded by mass immigration from non western nations. an immediate immigration moratorium must be declared on Asians, latinos, slavs/e.europeans, and especially muslims--africans don't immigrate in any mentionable numbers anyway. it's not a racial issue but rather a cultural and ethical one. most of the aforementioned come here to benefit from the financial paradise that my forefathers made possible with no inkling to replenish what they take. if we need cheap labor fine, but they should not be granted citizenship or be treated to the trappings of such. american citizenship laws should be modeled after german laws... or better yet roman cannon...no first generation passports.
there should be a few exceptions, like those who deposit 250K in an american bank account with no withdrawal possible for five years. these people, along with other immigrants, should pay a higher tax rate--10%-20%-- than american citizens do.
these things will weed out freeriders from those that are genuinely interested in being americans and embracing the responsibilities that come with citizenship.
also, foreign brides must return home if their j-1 sponsor requests it within a ten year time frame. i'm sick of seeing sorry ass men being taken for rides by natashas.[/QUOTE]
@Artistyp, I'm asian, and my parents' retail business employs many AMERICANS, at above the minimum wage, who otherwise would not have jobs because they do not have the same opportunity at education as I was entitled to. Also, the biggest offenders of this so called "sin" (I agree with the guy below me) are not asians, it's huge corporations (many with stockholders from varying ethnicities, but predominantly white) that lay off hundreds of thousands of Americans and outsource. I'm only 21 with minimal savings, but as my bank roll and I grow older, I intend to invest at least 70 percent of my savings in the European market, and the rest in my own enterprises (home-grown, which will also employ AMERICANS). What you do with your hard-earned money is your own business.
I agree our history past and present are not exactly beyond reproach. I often wonder why our forefathers are said to have had a "great Protestant work ethic" when we all know that they relied on slave labor from Africa to do the most back-breaking work? Even today, the Mexicans immigrants demonstrate more of a work ethic than the average American, and they are mostly Catholics not Protestants.
Stating the facts instead repeating well aged slogans does not make one unpatriotic. Remember the story "The Emperor's New Clothes"?
CM
"I often wonder why our forefathers are said to have had a "great Protestant work ethic" when we all know that they relied on slave labor from Africa to do the most back-breaking work? Even today, the Mexicans immigrants demonstrate more of a work ethic than the average American, and they are mostly Catholics not Protestants."
I appreciate what you are trying to say, but speaking from personal experience and even though I am Catholic, I know a lot of "normal Joe" WASP (White Angle-Saxon Protestant) Americans working their asses off because they simply believe its the right thing to do and the way "a good American" should conduct himself. Moreover, just as much as America was built on imported foreign labor and slavery, it was also built based on the back-breaking work and sacrifice of our forefathers, whether they be English, German, Swedish, Irish, African, Chinese, Mexican or whatever.
Maybe the mentality is changing among America's population, but I have yet to be in a FIRST WORLD country where the people truly worked harder than the average American does. Germans for example are some of the laziest workers on the planet, but their companies are well-organized and the country's infrastructure runs very well... allowing their workers a degree of laziness less-efficiently run countries cannot afford.
As for the second and third world... sure they work hard, but are generally being exploited by their own "elected" politicians and are victims of their own woefully inefficient infrastructure.... essentially slaves to inefficiency.
I also believe that work ethic is largely fueled by necessity, or do you think those Hispanic road crews and landscapers work that hard because they want to? I am sure the guy on the powered lawn mower isnt about to trade places with the guy pouring tar on the highway on a 95° California afternoon.
I also want to add that when my father came to this country with almost nothing, nobody helped him...not the American government, nobody. He had to start from scratch even though he had a degree from one of the most prestigeous universities in South Korea. He doesn't have to employ Americans and pay decent wages, but he does.
Patriotism, Nationalism, and protectionism are for hillbillies. They need something to decorate the back windows of their truck's with.
I'm an advocate of incrementally eliminating national borders...things tend to equalize over time.
I work with a lot of Mexicans (all fine individuals) at my little shit restaurant job.....even though they are willing to do a hell of a lot more work for less pay, I am not the least bit concerned about them taking my job, because they (as simple unsophisticated, villagers from a coastal town in southern Mexico) can't perform my function nearly as well as I can.
Call me crazy, but I don't think one world government is such an evil idea......so long as it isn't just a corrupt tool for advancing corporate interests as is our current administration.
b9k
Columpuss,
Although I do not keep up with all the data on killings or other violence in the USA or other countries. I do think it is reasonable that the murders, killings or persons going missing and later presumed dead and other violent acts are 99 percent accurately reported in coutries like the USA.
I do not think that in the Philippines or other 3rd world nations there is even a 20% accuracy to how many people are murdered or go missing or have violent acts committed against them.
So I do not think you can really compare the two societies in relation as to which is safer in general.
That said, the PI and other 3rd world countries like the PI are probably, in relation to violent crimes, safer for foreigners. Even in China if a violent crime is committed against a foreigner the local government will go all out to capture and punish all involved. Most countries are all to aware of the importance of the tourist dollar.
FF
Pals,
Just wondering about the guy who Posts all over the place. Does he actually go to any of these places. I travel far more than anyone I know and I know many wealthy, successful people due to my work. But I do not travel a fraction of what this one guy Posts. I have Posted so far in So China, Thailand, Toronto, Ca, London, UK and Phils. All during or after my Trips there.
I would say that it is likely this guy travels in his mind. Where are the photos??? I have posted several hundred photos on various sites. I have never posted about Japan but have had several erotic adventures there (need to Post the soon).
Anyway, Happy Father's Day to all.
Dragon Slayer
Have a nice day guys lighten up it's all in a day in our lives.
[quote=frequent flier]columpuss,
although i do not keep up with all the data on killings or other violence in the usa or other countries. i do think it is reasonable that the murders, killings or persons going missing and later presumed dead and other violent acts are 99 percent accurately reported in coutries like the usa.
i do not think that in the philippines or other 3rd world nations there is even a 20% accuracy to how many people are murdered or go missing or have violent acts committed against them.
so i do not think you can really compare the two societies in relation as to which is safer in general.
that said, the pi and other 3rd world countries like the pi are probably, in relation to violent crimes, safer for foreigners. even in china if a violent crime is committed against a foreigner the local government will go all out to capture and punish all involved. most countries are all to aware of the importance of the tourist dollar.
gentlemen:
just my 2 cents on this note, as a former homicide detective, narcotics branch commander (usa wash dc) un sanctioned teacher (e. timor) private body guard (singapore) security consultant (singapore, malaysia and thailand) and martial arts teacher (thailand/philippines) i think im qualified to say a word or two on comparitive safety in the philippines as wellas thailand and a few other places i lived in worked in and traveled to in asia.
hands down the philippoines are safer for an expat westerner or touriost than the usa. we have much more random crime and violence than the phils.
i compare manila with washington dc where i wore various lawman badges for 23 years. wash dc is a cesspool where tourists are murdered, robbed, raped and injured at a higher rate, random violence, one minutes you are seeing the washington monument the next minute some junkie has a cheap pistol in your face and pistol whips you for your wallet and loose change.
violence towards foreigners does occur in the philippines, but in most cases some idiot brought it on himself, got drunk and mouthed off to some local or slapped around his gf. yeah you can say all you want about the abu sayeff and the npa, but vey clearly stay out of their territory and you wont have a problem with them. also stay out of anacostia and potomac gardens housing project in wash dc and bed sty or spanish harlem in new york, but it might not matter, the usa criminal is more mobile (that means he can drive a car) this makes people in the suburbs a car ride away from assholes from se dc with mayhem on their minds.
a great deal of the violence in the phils is connected to politics, live her a while and you understand the symbiosis between politics and family, its the patronage system, if my guy gets elected, you and your family who voted for me get all the breaks, meanwhile the guy who voted against me and his family get shit, pretty soon somebody gets tired of the short end of the stick and losing money and decides to hold an impeachment process with a 45, enough said, hold a review...
p.s. record keeping is a complete joke in this country, half the systems are not computerized and have to be hand searched by somebody who knows where the log book is
regards
spamhog
That's a good report "SH" And I agree with what you said about the getting drunk and acting stupid in the PI.Most of the problems here are from guys acting more stupid than they ever would in there own countries.
World famous;
B.B...
The good US of F'in A
Attended my nephew's 8th grade graduation ceremony 2 days ago. The school is in a residential area. Most parents couldn't find proper parking space so some of us parked on the side walk on school's property but not completely blocking the side walk. The sign says "no parking before 5PM" reserved for school buses. The ceremony starts at 7pm. When it ends at 9, we came out and saw a line of cars, must be around 10 cars that was ticketed for parking on the side walk. now, it is not down town. Parking cops don't go around residential areas after 5 to give out tickets.
My conclusion: some patriotic American must have performed his or her civic duty to punish law breakers.
Those who don't live in this country, this is a crime free country. The only law breakers are parents who park illegaly
Why don't we close up the boarders,the free stuff to other countries and help just the ones here??Stop the social security to overseas foreigners living abrod,and all ex-military pensions to those living in other countries.Lets give our our country full control of setting things straight here.
The facts are we do what we do right or wrong,most of us would like to see a change here,but we still help out everyone else in the world.Remember that when you buy American living in the PI,all that shit you eat and drink and have on your back is not from everywhere else in the world.
How many old Hz bens from the states would cry if the goodies were stopped???You say I earned it well thats ok you did, and so am I every week helping you guys grow old in a different place.Jelous?no, just saying don't ***** about the farmer with your mouth full.We all live from the freedom America provides and we all take full advantage of it every day 24/7.America will serve anyone anytime night or day without question in a hospital or soup kitchen.Not ask for payment first before services are rendered.Is that the same in the PI I don't think so.I know you all living there think life is great and I also when I was there.Remember you are DIFFERENT.As was I we have income,we can support ourselves.How many of us go there and live like the locals do??? Not many That I saw,just the pompous foreigners strutting around bitching about the shit they have to deal with overseas.Sounds like they could not deal with the shit from where ever they were from so that's why they are there now.Lets put the cards on the table,call a spade a spade.We are different from each and every place,oz,france,the uk everywhere.We do have more than the locals and we ***** about what we don't have before what we do have.I am sure I left there 2 months ago thinking about the girl the cost of living feeling differently, but the general thought in my mind was I WAS LUCKY TO BE GOING HOME.I can assure you that my trip made me feel different and I think different now than before.I wake up feeling lucky to have a job and business here,and be able to go ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD I WANT without delay.
I do not look at material things like I did before,AND YES I HAD AND DO HAVE THEM ALL.The important thing in life is what I learned from the local culture,not some guy from another country.Be happy rich or poor,be happy with your family.Who would ever think that I had to go 9000 miles away at the age of 41 and learn a life's lesson like that.
B.B...
B.B...
I don't want to get into a debate on patriotism or the political morality of the US versus anywhere else. I do think that the gist of Bill's argument is correct, and that the US does, in fact, act as a beacon to the rest of the world in many respects, though certainly (at least with the current administration) not all. I do want to point out though, in terms of our giving away the "free stuff" that the amount of money the US gives away as foreign aid is less, on a per capita percentage of GDP than any other developed country in the world. We are not nearly as generous for example, as Norway (the highest percentage of GDP as foreign aid), or Canada.
Historically, the US Congress has traditionally viewed foreign aid with a great deal of suspicion, and it continues to do so.
As to the payment of social security to US expats, why shouldn't we receive it? We pay it after all, in the same proportion as those living in the US, and we therefore "earn" the right to it the same as any other US citizen.
As with most complex arguments, this is not a simple, "either or" situation. For me, and I think for most of the expats I know, there are certain elements of living overseas that are preferable (to us) to living in the US. At the same time, there are certain qualities--both material and otherwise--that are lacking and that all of us miss. Most of the expatriates I know fall into one of two categories:
1. They live overseas because that's where their jobs took them, and they adapted well to the life. My experience is that, after not very many years, people in this category (including myself) get classified by employers as those who have maximum value to their companies by living overseas. It's difficult therefore, to come back to the US and find equivalent jobs.
2. They moved overseas when they were older and about to retire, for the simple reason that their pensions and savings are insufficient to support them well in their home countries. Since US (or European) money stretches much further in the developing world, they chose to move overseas to attain a higher quality of life, in the material sense.
Expatriotism is not for everyone, and probably not for most people. Adaptation is often difficult, and even for those of us who have lived abroad for years, the occassional pangs of displacement and homesickness never go away completely.
:D
GE
You are right you did earn it but what about the working class or any class for that matter that pays taxes on wages and then again on savings.If the people could vote on paying ss and giving it to those who move from there country to live elsewhere they might want the cash to stay here.Fuel the economy at home not in another country.
I have argued about this at home with many just a thread not just my personal feelings.I have seen both sides of the coin and each should decide his fate here or there.
B.B...
I hate to see things degenerate into a ***** session, borrrrriiiinnnnngggg, so please understand I am not bitching and I am not taking aim at anyone. I, like many other expats LOVE my country, the good old USA, I served it in many ways for almost 30 years. I do not view my substantial pension as "supported by taxpayers" as I had to pay into it, that's right... came out of my salary every week I worked, Im proud of that too.
However, as much as I love my country, i choose not to live there as I simply cannot afford to unless I want to work. Probably in a private business as I had before. Why the hell should I work, pay taxes, maintain a business ,license and put up with all the crap of having employee's, labour management hassels and the inevitible law suits and other crap? Unfortunately, that is what American has become. Freedom ???
The legal profession has made everyday life a mine field of political correctness where there are so many laws, rules regularions and mandates that it is nearly impossible not to violate something or other then the special agenda groups take over and nail your ass to the wall coz U are a white male republican. That isn't freedom my friends.
Being an expat in Asia, living and working and of course playing here for more than seven years has made me realize many things, one is that how lucky I am to have been born in the USA and be a success at my chosen field and enjoy a generous retirement stipend every month that allows me to live like a fuedal warlord. But believe me I earned every penny. This is the other thing I learned:
TRUE FREEDOM IS FINANCIAL FREEDOM. If you have enough money and a dependable income you can go anywhere at any time and do anything you want...now thats freedom and that is what I have here.
The other issue is, once you get over in Asia and live there, you dont want to go back...so many reason for this. I came to this realization on a brief trip back to the USA recently to see my grandkids...I dont fit in anymore.
Spend more than a few months here and you wont either.
Regards
The Spam hog
As always, SH, you make perfect sense, and you raise a point that I forgot to mention. Once you've lived overseas for a certain period of time, be it in Asia, Europe or wherever, you just do not fit in "at home" any more. I guess it's because in the US, as with everywhere else, the culture is dynamic, things are changing all the time, and you (the expat) have not been there to accommodate or internalize the changes. I find exactly the same thing on my rare visits to the US: I will often be jarred by the culture shock and think to myself, "Where the hell am I?"
In my case, I've lived outside the US for so long that I don't even know anyone, aside from the kids, very well any more and when I do get together with old friends, we find we have very little to say to each other. They cannot possibly identify with or be cognizant of my lifestyle, and I can no longer identify with theirs. I don't think this has anything at all to do with one's feelings toward the US or wherever your country of birth happens to be. It's just the inevitable process of cultural alienation.
Prior to living in Asia, I lived in Paris for several years, and I recall thinking, on a trip back to the states, how loud Americans are. Of course, the noise level probably hadn't changed since I had lived in America, but I simply was not used to it any more.
This is probably the last comment I'll make on this subject, but it is somewhat reassuring to note that others experience some of the same feelings that I do.
GE
[QUOTE=GoodEnough]As always, SH, you make perfect sense, and you raise a point that I forgot to mention. Once you've lived overseas for a certain period of time, be it in Asia, Europe or wherever, you just do not fit in "at home" any more. I guess it's because in the US, as with everywhere else, the culture is dynamic, things are changing all the time, and you (the expat) have not been there to accommodate or internalize the changes. I find exactly the same thing on my rare visits to the US: I will often be jarred by the culture shock and think to myself, "Where the hell am I?"
In my case, I've lived outside the US for so long that I don't even know anyone, aside from the kids, very well any more and when I do get together with old friends, we find we have very little to say to each other. They cannot possibly identify with or be cognizant of my lifestyle, and I can no longer identify with theirs. I don't think this has anything at all to do with one's feelings toward the US or wherever your country of birth happens to be. It's just the inevitable process of cultural alienation.
Prior to living in Asia, I lived in Paris for several years, and I recall thinking, on a trip back to the states, how loud Americans are. Of course, the noise level probably hadn't changed since I had lived in America, but I simply was not used to it any more.
This is probably the last comment I'll make on this subject, but it is somewhat reassuring to note that others experience some of the same feelings that I do.
GE[/QUOTE]
This doesn't make any sense to me. You are a person who has many times gone to new places and made friends with people of a different cultures but you can't get past some changes at home? Maybe you aren't really trying.
[QUOTE=GoodEnough]I do want to point out though, in terms of our giving away the "free stuff" that the amount of money the US gives away as foreign aid is less, on a per capita percentage of GDP than any other developed country in the world. We are not nearly as generous for example, as Norway (the highest percentage of GDP as foreign aid), or Canada.
[/QUOTE]
But when you factor in our defense budget and the way we protected Europe and most of the world from the Soviet Union for 40 years, we might look a little more generous. Then factor in the Americans who died in defense of others in both world wars, the cold war and so many undeclared wars. I think we have done more than anyone can expect. If Europe had to depend upon the likes of Norway they would all be speaking Russian.
SH, I agree with MOST of what you said BUT,What about the guys working today giving more than you in terms of paying into the ss system.The guy that works every day and hears about how there is likely not gonna be anything for him.And you telling how you live like a war loard.Are you bragging or complaining?Sounds like the money you paid in and got back was yours what about the statement about not wanting to work?"lazy"? not fitting in back home.Why? you don't make an attempt at keeping in touch?your family and friends not liking your choice of countries?or the gal you chose?I saw all the same in my short trip,many guys that we misunderstood by there friends and family.
Many of the reasons were because of THERE CHOICES not there families.It's not about being the big time charlie or is it?Sounds like you got that kind of ego you need to fuel.Cant cut the mustard at home you mean YOUNG GALS?It's a fucking joke with you OLD GUYS yes I said old running around like you are still somebody,well the joke is on you!It takes work and guts to stay at home and pay and face the music and vote for whoever you think will do the best job for the people.You are probably like others that BIT** every day about bush but were never here to try and change anything, or cast and vote for what you think should be changed.I met what I would call shitheads from here on my trip wanting to be or act young again.Talking very loud about the riches all there incoharent hours.I responded to them every chance I got,if your so rich why ain't you home???I never got an answer from most, and some were coherent enough to speak.
I dont find the fascination with the younger guys in your place like I do with the old.Mabey it's because they still get there stinger wet every night at home.And the answer is if you had the corner on the place to live everyone would be there.
Lazy,drunk,bigshot,whatever fuels your egos lap it up but the bottom line is you want the riches from the pot "think American now, BECAUSE YOU ARE INTITLED TO THEM "SS" YOU PAID YOUR SHARE AND WANT IT BACK"I am sure you take that check away and the warlord would surely cry like a regular baby.And please tell us what bank in Asia you have the money entered into?most guys have a us bank and for what reason???Come on you know please tell us all mr. warloard.What about the 10% interest you can get there on all your ritches you have it's sure better than what you get here!! Bit,what about safe? Please tell us how safe your green is there.I heard the local braintrust there worrying about there peso accounts because of the rates at the first of the year.Worrying about the 1 point up or down sounded like they all had billions in the bank.Sure thats why they would ***** when the beer price went to .05 pesos per beer higher.The rich big shots with the money to burn,most could not pour [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140][CodeWord140][/url] out of a rubber boot with the instructions scribbled on the heel.
The facts are the facts and the truth is the truth,You are gonna die and leave the embassy to pay for the funeral after the guys back home pay for it.Not to mention after that Young cooze and the RELATHIVES loot and get the warlords belonings,every last drop...
I SAW IT AND LIVED IT EVERY DAY FOR 6 MONTHS, so blow smoke up someone else's ass...
B.B...
Bill, you might have seen, but you obviously failed to understand much or perhaps most of what you saw. First, I have met SH several times, and your perception of his motivations, his attitudes and his behavior are not only egregiously wrong, but offensive. Second, your generalizations about the lifestyles of expatriates would be equally offensive if they were not so absurd.
In fifteen years of living overseas, I've found that peoples' motivations vary enormously: sometimes the rationale is economic, sometimes political, and sometimes social, but it's rarely sexual. That is, most men who make the decision to live oversea don't do so primarily so they can screw younger women. This may be a fringe benefit, but it's hardly a motivation for changing one's entire life. Maybe before your next trip you should read a couple of books and arrange to meet a more representative sample of expats. You might also want to brush up your syntax prior to making your next lengthy post.
J Boy, your point is well-taken though I'm not sure I would include defense expenditures post World War II as foreign assistance. I think it's more on the order of self-interest and perhaps a determination on the part of politicians to ensure the survival of the defense industry and the number of jobs associated with it. I doubt, for example, that the Japanese or the Germans view the presence of US troops on their soil as essential any longer.
Maybe it's not possible to generalize accurately about either of these issues, and maybe the reasons that those of us who live overseas do so are as idiosyncratic as the individuals who make the choices. I do think though, that once someone has lived overseas for long enough, though he or she may adapt to other cultures, the individual never "fits in" again. For example, as an American living in Asia, I'm always going to be perceived as an outsider, and will be perceived somewhat in that vein by Americans when I do go home.
Obviously, this is just my point of view and just my two centavos worth of opinion.
:D
GE
I understand perfectly what my sober eyes and ears saw and heard.Can't chew the leather anymore and maybe I was in a place that reeked of Scams and insolence from foreigners.Could be but I saw and heard much that was to my disgust will try another area nextime I go, lets see.Failed to understand "what". The part of cheep beer,girls,Lack of good medical care what did I miss??The fact that you sometimes go to a doctor 2-3 times before getting the right diagnosis??Come on you can justify just about anything when you talk from your wallet.A friend from the states had red eye went to 3 doctors before getting the right drops to clear the shit up.And the second one gave him something that would make him blind if he had continued use.Sure that could happen anywhere,not likely at home.Thats the difference,why do all or most of the guys living there know and say if they get sick they are going home to get medical care?????I am sure you got an answer for that a 700 dollar ticket home for FREE care on the taxpayers.I know the mentality over their cheep charlie they call it maybe most did not plan well enough ahead and that why they are there.20 THOUSAND DOLLARS makes you a millionare in the PI,Well thats the difference any half a mope can get to that plato in life working at mickeyD's or burgerking.War Lord in fantasy land that's the mentality when you stay there to long.And I am sure you feel everything you also report here is right.I am sure there are lots that can't tell me when they drew there last sober breath but many could tell me about the new bar or great looking addition "FEMALE" that works at it.Or who is giving away free food at happyhour.Sorry guys I lived there surrounded bu drunks and braggarts what can I say millionaires galore from everywhere,but they all come running back here for something they think the are entitled to.Sit in the vfw and make out entitlement papers because they deserve it.The last stage in life, loss of reason and intravenous alcohol use don't add up to much.Expatriats I wave my flagg every week so I can pay for your medical care when you fly back home with a medical crisis next time.A new location still the same what can my country do for me attitude.
Come on IT ain't great enough for me to sell out and live there and the newness wares off after a while...
B.B...
[QUOTE=Bart9000]Patriotism, Nationalism, and protectionism are for hillbillies. They need something to decorate the back windows of their truck's with.
I'm an advocate of incrementally eliminating national borders...things tend to equalize over time.
I work with a lot of Mexicans (all fine individuals) at my little shit restaurant job.....even though they are willing to do a hell of a lot more work for less pay, I am not the least bit concerned about them taking my job, because they (as simple unsophisticated, villagers from a coastal town in southern Mexico) can't perform my function nearly as well as I can.
Call me crazy, but I don't think one world government is such an evil idea......so long as it isn't just a corrupt tool for advancing corporate interests as is our current administration.
b9k[/QUOTE]
What do you think the One World Nation is about!
One Nation under Lucifer not God!
Mr. Rothchild doesn't need our money he has Trillions of dollars!
He wants our minds!
He wants to turn all of us into slaves, but I guess he already has a few slaves in his pockets already.
I know this is a sex site but Some of you guys really need to pick up a Bible are read it. Even more importantly try to understand it.
Bart9000
You really think only Rednecks are Patriotism, Nationalism, and protectionism are for hillbillies. Man America is doomed!
[QUOTE=Bart9000]Patriotism, Nationalism, and protectionism are for hillbillies. They need something to decorate the back windows of their truck's with.
I'm an advocate of incrementally eliminating national borders...things tend to equalize over time.
I work with a lot of Mexicans (all fine individuals) at my little shit restaurant job.....even though they are willing to do a hell of a lot more work for less pay, I am not the least bit concerned about them taking my job, because they (as simple unsophisticated, villagers from a coastal town in southern Mexico) can't perform my function nearly as well as I can.
Call me crazy, but I don't think one world government is such an evil idea......so long as it isn't just a corrupt tool for advancing corporate interests as is our current administration.
b9k[/QUOTE]
If they were all coming to do shit jobs for less money it would be fine. How about when they all need welfare, free housing, free health care and food stamps? Who the fuck do you think is going to pay for that? The tax payer is. So when we already have record debt please explain to me how 50 million unskilled, uneducated workers that earn less than 12k per year is going to help the country.
Well, I will add my 2 cents to this discussion. I live in the Phillipines for many reasons, most have a lot to with how I love I the country. However, there is a separate reason for why I don't live in America. I lived in the US for all of my adult life, and it is a place I truly despise. It used to be great place, maybe as recently at 15 years ago. But times have changed. It is a borderline police state today. The country has the highest per capita incaration rate in the world, by far. Cops everywhere. The government can monitor you communications at will. The smallest thing, from driving after having a few to many, to not having your kid in car seat, can get you in serious trouble. Argument with your wife, maybe you go to jail. Your kid gets sunburned, maybe you are charged with child abuse. Music to loud, disturbing the peace. Say something untruthful to a cop, you go to jail for a long time. Your 5 year old son touches a girl inappropriately, he gets in whole lot of trouble. This list goes on and on.
But the biggest reason that I could not live in the US, is that I am against the US in their war in Iraq. The US destroyed the country and is now occupying it. They claim they are liberating it, but over 80% of the population, in every poll taken in the past 6 months, want the US out NOW. Now I don't want to enter a debate about Iraq. It is just that in good conscience, I cannot live in a country I do not support. Out here, while not everyone supports my views, they at least consider them rational and don't get upset with me for having them. When I express joy at every strike the resistance makes against the US, I don't have to worry about going on some terrorist watch list merely because I have an opinion that is counter to US interests. In war, there are two sides. Who is right and and who is wrong largely depends on where you live. It is very difficult to live in a country at war when you support the other side, even if your support is merely the opinion that the other side is right.
[QUOTE=LoveAsian*****s]Well, I will add my 2 cents to this discussion. I live in the Phillipines for many reasons, most have a lot to with how I love I the country. [/QUOTE]
easy access to limitless supply of reasonable price asian *****s helps?? did you renounced your US citizenship??
[QUOTE=LoveAsian*****s]Well, I will add my 2 cents to this discussion. I live in the Phillipines for many reasons, most have a lot to with how I love I the country. [/QUOTE]
easy access to limitless supply of reasonable price asian *****s helps?? did you renounced your US citizenship??
[QUOTE=Icquest]easy access to limitless supply of reasonable price asian *****s helps?? did you renounced your US citizenship??[/QUOTE]
The problem with renouncing citizenship is that you then become stateless. I need to leave the country every six months to renew my visa, but if I tried to that while being stateless, I could spend the rest of my life in an immigration holding cell. Citizenship is something that you generally have no control over. Just like you cannot control who your parents are, you cannot control where you are born. Obtaining Philippine residency is not that difficult, but citizenship is. And even then, it is quite difficult traveling anywhere outside of ASEAN with a Philippine passport. Alas, US citizenship is something I will have to bear for life.
BB are you talking about medicare for the elderly? If you are it applies to all US citizens. Same for social security. You/me/senior citizens all are paying or have paid for it. All elderly US citizens are using these. The ones you saw in the Philippines are saving you tax dollars as they are not using medicare there.
You will be using both someday too.
[QUOTE=Bill Buxton]SH, I agree with MOST of what you said BUT,What about the guys working today giving more than you in terms of paying into the ss system.The guy that works every day and hears about how there is likely not gonna be anything for him.And you telling how you live like a war loard.Are you bragging or complaining?Sounds like the money you paid in and got back was yours what about the statement about not wanting to work?"lazy"? not fitting in back home.Why? you don't make an attempt at keeping in touch?your family and friends not liking your choice of countries?or the gal you chose?I saw all the same in my short trip,many guys that we misunderstood by there friends and family.
Many of the reasons were because of THERE CHOICES not there families.It's not about being the big time charlie or is it?Sounds like you got that kind of ego you need to fuel.Cant cut the mustard at home you mean YOUNG GALS?It's a fucking joke with you OLD GUYS yes I said old running around like you are still somebody,well the joke is on you!It takes work and guts to stay at home and pay and face the music and vote for whoever you think will do the best job for the people.You are probably like others that BIT** every day about bush but were never here to try and change anything, or cast and vote for what you think should be changed.I met what I would call shitheads from here on my trip wanting to be or act young again.Talking very loud about the riches all there incoharent hours.I responded to them every chance I got,if your so rich why ain't you home???I never got an answer from most, and some were coherent enough to speak.
I dont find the fascination with the younger guys in your place like I do with the old.Mabey it's because they still get there stinger wet every night at home.And the answer is if you had the corner on the place to live everyone would be there.
Lazy,drunk,bigshot,whatever fuels your egos lap it up but the bottom line is you want the riches from the pot "think American now, BECAUSE YOU ARE INTITLED TO THEM "SS" YOU PAID YOUR SHARE AND WANT IT BACK"I am sure you take that check away and the warlord would surely cry like a regular baby.And please tell us what bank in Asia you have the money entered into?most guys have a us bank and for what reason???Come on you know please tell us all mr. warloard.What about the 10% interest you can get there on all your ritches you have it's sure better than what you get here!! Bit,what about safe? Please tell us how safe your green is there.I heard the local braintrust there worrying about there peso accounts because of the rates at the first of the year.Worrying about the 1 point up or down sounded like they all had billions in the bank.Sure thats why they would ***** when the beer price went to .05 pesos per beer higher.The rich big shots with the money to burn,most could not pour [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140][CodeWord140][/url] out of a rubber boot with the instructions scribbled on the heel.
The facts are the facts and the truth is the truth,You are gonna die and leave the embassy to pay for the funeral after the guys back home pay for it.Not to mention after that Young cooze and the RELATHIVES loot and get the warlords belonings,every last drop...
I SAW IT AND LIVED IT EVERY DAY FOR 6 MONTHS, so blow smoke up someone else's ass...
B.B...[/QUOTE]
Bill, one thing I NEVER DO is blow smoke up peoples asses, but it certainly seems as if someone blew a whole truck load up yours. I don't know what you did your "tour" here but it seems to me you spent a lot of time in bars talking to embittered expat drunks, you know, the type who are always running scams and looking to bilk "greehorns" and newby's out of their hard earned money. I think perhaps a bit of that embitterment rubbed off on you as that is how your coming across. But to assume all expats here are the same is folly, I assure you they are not and I refer to several gentlemen I know on this board personally as men of quality, presence and demanor whose experience has made them better men for it.
But talking to "old" guys in bars is not really a good overall acessment of the cultural, socio-economic/political situation in whatever 3rd world paradise you visit. BTW doubtful our paths would have crossed as I spend very little time in bars (prefer a gym) but perhaps if you would visit other establishment (the ones where you don't barfine anyone) your opinions might be different.
As far as my bitching or complaining as you put it, I was doing neither, as a warlord or as and old retired jerk I was merely giving my honest opinion, quoting facts and telling you the truth, maybe you don't like how it was presented (Tough) or thought I was gloating but I assure I wasn't.
I don;t want to get involved in the arguement over SSS, Im not under that system (thank god) and of course if my pension were cut off I would have to go back to work, but work I would, probably in Singapore, my last job or perhaps take up certain people on their offer to go to Afghanistan or Iraq as I've been offered, however, I see no need to go to those countries and make money I don't need when Im fiinacially secure.
But I do have a nest egg that would see me throguh any dry period thanks to my foresight in investing in the US stiock market. I am a great beleiver in the US economic system and in the stock market, Buy American and invest. Thats what you should do Bill if you are truly a patriotic American working class hero, do you really think your doing any good by "Buying American" coz U go to wal mart? Better yet, take some of that beer money you pour down your throat and open up a trading account and invest in some US run companies. Oh and I pay US taxes also!
Of course I keep my money in a US bank...and I voted for Bush...twice, as I've said, Im a good American and love my country, because I choose to live elsewhere (thats right Bill I said Choose!) does that make me less a man/ less a patriot in your eyes...who cares.
Facts, we are all going to die, if I die in the Philippines, my wife and relatives get the loot from my war lords war chest and divy it up...thats the law. If YOU die in the US who in your chain of command of spongeing relatives gets your loot... or maybe you were one of those ones foolish enough to have a lawyer as executor of your will in which case your lawyer cleans up.
Respectfully
The Spamhog
I don't drink,and don't smoke,and most of the guys I saw were in bars getting there load on.Yes running scams on the next greenhorn they saw.What I am saying is without the ss most of the so called Rich guys like you by the sounds would have a different life.
I guess it's good the system reaches over and above its intentions.
B.B...
[QUOTE=LoveAsian*****s]Well, I will add my 2 cents to this discussion. I live in the Phillipines for many reasons, most have a lot to with how I love I the country. However, there is a separate reason for why I don't live in America. I lived in the US for all of my adult life, and it is a place I truly despise. It used to be great place, maybe as recently at 15 years ago. But times have changed. It is a borderline police state today. The country has the highest per capita incaration rate in the world, by far. Cops everywhere. The government can monitor you communications at will. The smallest thing, from driving after having a few to many, to not having your kid in car seat, can get you in serious trouble. Argument with your wife, maybe you go to jail. Your kid gets sunburned, maybe you are charged with child abuse. Music to loud, disturbing the peace. Say something untruthful to a cop, you go to jail for a long time. Your 5 year old son touches a girl inappropriately, he gets in whole lot of trouble. This list goes on and on.
But the biggest reason that I could not live in the US, is that I am against the US in their war in Iraq. The US destroyed the country and is now occupying it. They claim they are liberating it, but over 80% of the population, in every poll taken in the past 6 months, want the US out NOW. Now I don't want to enter a debate about Iraq. It is just that in good conscience, I cannot live in a country I do not support. Out here, while not everyone supports my views, they at least consider them rational and don't get upset with me for having them. When I express joy at every strike the resistance makes against the US, I don't have to worry about going on some terrorist watch list merely because I have an opinion that is counter to US interests. In war, there are two sides. Who is right and and who is wrong largely depends on where you live. It is very difficult to live in a country at war when you support the other side, even if your support is merely the opinion that the other side is right.[/QUOTE]You don't agree that why dip into the pool?I am sure you get some assistance stateside and then you flee and say this kinda shit and still grab the cash.Great deal for you and you gloat over it every month I am sure of that.
Seems you all can justify whatever you want and that's great live it up cause you all took the path of least resistance and showed what you really are...
B.B...
[QUOTE=Bill Buxton]You don't agree that why dip into the pool?[/QUOTE]
No idea what this means.[QUOTE=Bill Buxton]I am sure you get some assistance stateside.[/QUOTE]I provide assistance stateside to my family, and receive nothing from the US.[QUOTE=Bill Baxton]and then you flee[/QUOTE]I flee, just as the pilgrims fleed England to escape tyranny. What is wrong with that?[QUOTE=Bill Buxton]and say this kinda shit[/QUOTE]The truth hurts, doesn't it.[QUOTE=Bill Buxton]and still grab the cash.[/QUOTE]I work 7 days a week to make a good living in the Philippines. I wish I could grab cash.[QUOTE=Bill Buxton]Great deal for you and you gloat over it every month I am sure of that.[/QUOTE]Sorry, but I never gloat. You on the other hand have a serious case of jealousy. Maybe you should try and earn your own money.[QUOTE=Bill Buxton]Seems you all can justify whatever you want and that's great live it up cause you all took the path of least resistance and showed what you really are.[/QUOTE]Leaving the US was certainly not the path of least resistance. My income droped about 50%. It was the most difficult path, but the only path to avoid paying taxes that helps a country that is a threat to freedom the world over. It showed that my consciense will not let me live in a country I do not support. Your post, however, show that you are the kind of American moron that I was so sick of, that I had to leave. I am glad I just have to debate people like you online, instead of seeing them everyday.
[QUOTE=LoveAsian*****s] Your post, however, show that you are the kind of American moron that I was so sick of, that I had to leave. I am glad I just have to debate people like you online, instead of seeing them everyday.[/QUOTE]
Bada Bing to that LAW. I wish I could be in the far east to live it up too. my time will come. hope to share a cold beer with you if i am ever in your corner of the world.
[QUOTE=LoveAsian*****s]Your post, however, show that you are the kind of American moron that I was so sick of, that I had to leave. I am glad I just have to debate people like you online, instead of seeing them everyday.[/QUOTE]
LAW:
Isn't it nice that most of the guys who live here are the polar opposites of this guy and that you almost never have to listen to this type of poorly-espressed, semi-incoherent, baseless crap? I don't know about you, but where I live, in Davao, very few of my daily conversations with other expats have anything to do with the US.
Let's try however, to keep the secret of how good life can be here between ourselves. If it gets out, the influx of newcomers may overwhelm us.
:D
GE
[QUOTE=Bill Buxton]I don't drink,and don't smoke,and most of the guys I saw were in bars getting there load on.Yes running scams on the next greenhorn they saw.What I am saying is without the ss most of the so called Rich guys like you by the sounds would have a different life.
I guess it's good the system reaches over and above its intentions.
B.B...[/QUOTE]
Im Glad you dont drink or smoke Bill, coz I don;t either, BTW what did you drink in the bar when you were being husssled by all those mean old expats scammers? Cola?
I want to address than non sequitor parting line of yours about the system reaches over its intentions. I dont know how old you are, what you do for a living or your educational level but pardon me, what the hell do you know about the "systems" intention and usage and "abuses" as you infer?
The tone of your posts leads me (and apparently others) to beleive you think that all expats are getting over and ripping off the system, that we are "Sell outs" and chicken shits for "running" out on our country...or should I say countries coz like most typical fellow Americans you dont realize many Eurpoeans, Brits and Aussies to name a few are in the same boat.
You act like its the worst thing in the world for some guy (probably white, middle aged conservative) to live in another country and draw sss/pension or 401 K? Exactly where does it say in those retirement plans that one MUST reside in the US to draw benefits one has EARNED or entitled too?
And of course the first thing we do is get a little brown girl that screws and blows us everyday and some of us drink a little beer and generally enjoy ourselves? Terrible, Im sure Hilary will make it her mission to cut all benefits for White male republicans living abroad with women more than ten years their junior with input from standup guys like you. I wonder what Oprah or sally Jesse Rapheal or That nightmare Rosie O'Donnel would have to say about all us bad old boys, why don;t you book an appearance?
But expats on SS drinking and screwing doesn't seem so bad when you measure the abuses of the "system" by my fellow Americans. Remember Bill, you're talking to a guy who routinely used to arrest drug dealers in our nations capitol who were on welfare and took foodstamps from welfare mothers in exchange for crack. What did our politicians do about that? What did our system do about those abuses besides tell us big bad cops to lay off the poor oppressed inner city residents and hand out sentences of 6 to 18 months unsupervised probation for felony weight?
Of course our Pols have to clear the way for X sandanista hoodlums, Jamacian possee's and Domincan drug dealers coz these folks can be enlisted to vote (illegally) while colecting welfare and take better advantage of the system that protect, nutures and serves them...just look at the political platforms of who is running. Talk about selling out.
You come over to the Phils and hang out in a bar talking to a few old drunks and judge the whole lot, coming up with rediculous hypothetical quandries like "what would you do it no more benefits"
So now let me ask you the same thing. What would you do Bill, if suddenly (God forbid) you lost your job, you lost your 401 K or some idiot you elected decided to cut off your ss or retirement plan so more immigrants who vote their party can soil our country? Would you take your meager check and live into a trailer (or sleep in "shelters" or build a lean to in the woods?) and eat beans for breakfast lunch and dinner or would you go somewhere were your dollars would allow you to live with a modicom of civility?
Respectfully
Spam hog
Like I said most on the 'PROGRAM" OVERTHERE,are used up and gave up or think they have built the ultimate mouse trap.Thats ok,Like I said anyone can justify anything in there owne mind If they do it enough.Could be The icetea by the glass I was drinking at 3000p per week was getting to me.What I am talking about is the caliber of guys I met are not the caliber of guys I would associate with at home.Rude,drunk,GAGOO.And yes they were not all from the U.S.I am not trying to start a war here but what I saw was just guys living not living life.Mabey its hard for me I am not retirement age yet but I hope someone gives me a bullet if i get like those guys.Not 1-2 or 3 most of the locals were foreigners.Some of the most chismis talking people I have ever met anywhere.
Could be that BALOY BEACH,breeds ASSHOLES, or is a magnet for them.How did I know went there under the direction of an acquaintance and saw the wild west.
Next trip over I will make sure I try some new areas.And as for being broke here in the states I still think I would stay here before changing countries...
B.B...
I know I'm going to be sorry for asking, since I'm sure ignoring you is the best policy. Nevertheless, are you saying that the world is literally going to be ruled by Lucifer (I assume you mean the devil)? - an actual physical presence? And who the hell is "Mr. Rothchild"?
[QUOTE=Three I]What do you think the One World Nation is about!
One Nation under Lucifer not God!
Mr. Rothchild doesn't need our money he has Trillions of dollars!
He wants our minds!
He wants to turn all of us into slaves, but I guess he already has a few slaves in his pockets already.
I know this is a sex site but Some of you guys really need to pick up a Bible are read it. Even more importantly try to understand it.
Bart9000
You really think only Rednecks are Patriotism, Nationalism, and protectionism are for hillbillies. Man America is doomed![/QUOTE]
This thread will go on forever, interesting isn't it
BB
Read some of your posts before this, you seem to be a nice guy but you generalize about the Phillipines and forgot the US has the same problems and even worse. But that's ok, you love your country, can't take it away from you. Life is pretty much suck where ever you are so many of us monger to forget reality. It is a healthy debate.
As for me, I leave for SE asia in 2 weeks to live for good. I guess I'm not into the rat race and just want to be lazy. The only thing I can say is, my opinion of course, we are rich in material things in the US and other industrialize countries but we are very poor in soul. In poorer countries, people only have souls to compensate for the lack of materials. I guess I thrive for the latter.
Good luck to you all mongers, whereever you are
I think I am a good guy but want to say I never changed over there once.I respected everyone and had a great time.I saw many guys that did not do the same MANILA,ANGELIS,MAKATI, and that's how easy it was.
As far as the support from there respected countries go I am sure there regular checks were not intended for living in any other countries other than theres.Thats all no problem just wanted to say that.And as far as rich goes most over there would not be considered rich in the eyes of there own countryman.
WOW, When you push the right buttons they come ah runnin from everywhere,I hope it last forever...
Get on the TIT you are all right about one thing,TIMES ARE CHANGING everywhere,you never know what young senator from your country might make waves about this subject and get the ball Rollin.
B.B...
BB
that's all that's ever asked from any monger(er) when visiting other countries to monger, RESPECT EVERYTHING.
When you walk around big chested, you just get disrespectful laughters from the locals. Now you are no longer the guys from the civilized West but a drunken idiot.
[QUOTE=Columpuss]BB
that's all that's ever asked from any monger(er) when visiting other countries to monger, RESPECT EVERYTHING.
When you walk around big chested, you just get disrespectful laughters from the locals. Now you are no longer the guys from the civilized West but a drunken idiot.[/QUOTE]I wish all that go would remember that.Not sure if its the booz or the fact that they can have whatever they want for gals,hard to tell.
B.B...
[QUOTE=Beavis]If they were all coming to do shit jobs for less money it would be fine. How about when they all need welfare, free housing, free health care and food stamps? Who the fuck do you think is going to pay for that? The tax payer is. So when we already have record debt please explain to me how 50 million unskilled, uneducated workers that earn less than 12k per year is going to help the country.[/QUOTE]
I'm of the understanding that social spending is a pittance relative to corporate welfare, military spending etc.....I would sure as fuck rather have $75 tax dollars paying for a poor mexican woman's sonogram than a case of coke served to the troops by Haliburton. This is a non-issue drummed up to get ignorant white trash to vote hypocritical facist I mean Republican.
Poor people are consumers....in fact, they are much better consumers on a percentage basis than are wealthy people (this is known in economics as the marginal propensity to consume).....they spend in the aggregate, lots of money typically on high margin crap that puts money into business coffers, and causes the businesses to harness more manpower to produce more goods , probably employing other low wage workers (driving down unemployment, and increasing wages across the board), who buy more goods (I was being facetious with "crap" although there is a healthy degree of truth to it). If I remember correctly, this is known as the multiplier effect and is well substantiated.
B9k
PS It appears that this gentleman is quoting something from the far edge of conspiracy theorism, including possibly the belief in a physical "Lucifer"
I'm thinking more of a Utopian ideal (maybe I'm crazy).....put an uncorrupt (this could be tricky) UN in charge, incrementaly drop the national borders,maintain one military force for peacekeeping, let people live and work where they want to, enforce some minimal laws (about like Europe), put in some reasonable taxation, and start to take on the global problems like hunger, global warming. Now if this were done instantaneously, there would be mass chaos, but over the course of 30 years....
It isn't that much different than what is being done in the European Union right now.]
While we are wandering around here way off topic, I feel somewhat compelled to comment on "Lucifer".
i personally have absolutely no problem with spirituality-whatever gets you through the night. I personally believe that there is power in the Universe that is beyond our comprehension, and how you choose to relate to it is a function of choice, and culture.
ORGANIZED RELIGION however, in my opinion is pretty much just a tool for controlling the non-governing class.....pretty much just an additional carrot and stick for keeping the working class sober, working, and hopefully only sleeping with THEIR wives. I can kind of understand where someone would go through their lives without getting a "big picture" view that would allow them to obtain this perception, and can see where some benefit may be obtained in daily living through examination of ancient accounts of behavior, parables, whatever......
However, it FRIES MY BRAIN to find that some people have a need so pronounced to have their and other's behavior regulated, that they find it necessary to constrain their own behavior through fear of eternal punishment by a fairy tale of a red horned man
B9k
Bart9000
Hit the Gym and start listening to [url]www.blowmeuptom.com[/url]
He will assist you in getting your balls back.
Ron,
I listen to Tom Leykis on a fairly regular basis.......you may note that he has a similar take on religion incidently "I understand that the person who bags my groceries has a need to believe in finding their reward in heaven"......or something to that effect
I assure you that my testicles are very large, and functioning quite well (in conjunction with a cock that is just a hair smaller than the point where women begin to complain that it is "too big"). Their function does not impede analysis or criticim however, and the expression of a desire for example that our ignorant, and unskilled and stupid (a subset that I strongly suspect probably includes yourself) being afraid of competition (from in some cases non English speakers with 6th grade eduations) not help to alleviate poverty beneath an arbitrary world border than runs below Texas, Arizona, and California is not an unmasculine one.
It does fry my brain however, that in a (for the time being-subject to change) first world country. in the 21st centuryI am being scolded and threatened with reprisal by a fairy tale from the middle ages, albeit by some marginal weirdo.
b9k
Almost everyone here seems to be missing the point. United we stand divided we fall. By blaming America's problems on immigrants, for people and minorities,you are helping rich corrupt corporations to rob the country, hijack our democracy, war profiteers and diffuse working people in the United States and around the world. The racism is part of the blame game to divide the American people and hold power amongst a group of criminals who steal elections, wage illegal preemptive wars to steal oil and advance empire, and who commit ethnic cleansing in American cities like New Orleans.
Wake up people! The top 1/4 of 1% have received 75% of the tax cuts. The national debt has doubled in the last five years. The United States is going bankrupt due to a stupid war, just like the Soviet Union and the British Empire before us.
We captured Saddam Hussein, there were no weapons of mass destruction. Why are we still in Iraq? Why have oil profits skyrocketed? Could it have anything to do with the entire Bush White House been oil millionaires? But the oil millionaires do not want you to look at their wealth, so they blame the problems on Mexican and Chinese immigrants.
The immigrants are doing all the work. That's not a threat, it's a benefit. The problem is that all the money that is being generated is being stolen by war profiteers. And you tolerate it cause you prefer to blame blacks and Mexicans and Asians.
Racism has always been used by the rich in power to divide the poor and middle-class. The time has comefor rich and poor, black and white, citizen and immigrant to unite and take back the American government. The United States government belongs people. Stop being pussys, pick up your phones and call your senator and Congressman.
It's an election year for Christ sake, your congressmen is going to listen. He has to be reelected!
And to you rich guys like tax breaks, ... tax breaks to help you if the government keeps adding to your debt. Only the billionaires are getting rich.
Please wake up. the Bush administration is not conservative. They are radicals. They have nothing to do with conservatism or Republicans. They are a splinter group of neoconservative radicals.
Notice how for the next three months the price of gasoline will lower as we approach the election. And notice how it will be lots of threats and talk about terrorism. They want you to be afraid so you the Republican. If you are afraid, you will not do the patriotic thing off to these corrupt traitors out of office.
United we stand, divided we fall. Stop the division of racism, you are only hurting yourself. This is not idealism, it's a fact.
below I to the liberty of editing Bart's commentary that I agreed with. Forgive me Bart...
[QUOTE=Bart9000]...social spending is a pittance relative to corporate welfare, military spending etc..... This is a non-issue drummed up to get ignorant [citizens] to vote ... Republican.
Poor people are consumers....they spend lots of money typically on high margin crap that puts money into business coffers, and causes the businesses to harness more manpower to produce more goods , probably employing other low wage workers (driving down unemployment, and increasing wages across the board), who buy more goods ...etc....put an uncorrupt (this could be tricky) UN in charge, incrementaly drop the national borders,maintain one military force for peacekeeping, let people live and work where they want to, enforce some minimal laws (about like Europe), put in some reasonable taxation, and start to take on the global problems like hunger, global warming. Now if this were done instantaneously, there would be mass chaos, but over the course of 30 years....[/QUOTE]
Good call Jackson.
Might I also recommend a sexpatriation thread....it's something we get into quite often on the AW board.
Some may say this thread doesn't belong on ISG....I have to maintain that it is unfortunate that there is a correlation between Amerian politics and my sex life
B9k
Conventional political parties in the USA do not serve the principle interests of most of the readers on this board. Neither party is remotely interested in helping facilitate connections (of any kind) between American men and women outside the United States.
A lot of people who comment on American politics on the ISG do not seem to understand this. They have a specific line of "conservative" or "liberal" talking points, which is often short of original thinking and does not address practical questions. It's like they are on a rhetorical habitrail - although I admit sometimes thier posts are fun to read - they never deal with real ISG issues.
What do I mean by a practical question? I mean something that is tangible and important to you like, say, "why do I have to spend tons of my money to travel to Thailand or Colombia or Moldovia in order to meet these girls?" How could the laws and policies of the USA be adjusted to reduce these costs for me? How do I work the law and politics to get my girlfriend into the US for a short-term visit?
Or even more abstract practical questions like "would I trade off my dearest arguments about fiscal policy if I knew it would result in my getting laid by beautiful women on a regular basis"?
It seems to me that questions like these cut more to the core of ISG politics.
You do have some valid points. Now I generally identify with the left because they are economically paternalistic (necessary in my opinion-I don't want to start a tangent), and socially less judgemental and generally (there are exceptions-Tipper Gore had a bug up her ass about censoring song lyrics) more laizes faire. Also they embrace rationalism, and intellectualism whereas the right gets into "common sense"-simplistic answers that are mostly much more wrong than they are right.
That being said, it is problematic for me to be on the same team with the people who came up with feminism, and sexual harassment......I generally just take the position that only a simpleton blindly jumps onto one side or another, embracing whole platform regardless of whether or not it is his self interest......
B9k
[QUOTE=Digital Curry]"Almost everyone here seems to be missing the point.
Wake up people! The top 1/4 of 1% have received 75% of the tax cuts."
They deserve the tax cuts:
People with incomes $200,000 and over pay 42.7% of the taxes, $377 Billion.
People with incomes $100,000 to 200,000 pay 24.1% of the taxes, $213 Billion.
People with incomes $75,000 to 100,000 pay 12.8% of the taxes, $113 Billion.
People with incomes 50,000 to 75,000 pay 12.9% of the taxes $114 Billion.
People with incomes of $40,000 to 50,000 pay 4.4% of the taxes, or $39 Billion, and
people with incomes of$30,000 to 40,000 pay only 3.4% of the taxes, or $30 Billion!
Finally, people with incomes of only $20,000 to 30,000 pay only 1.1% of the taxes, or $10 Billion!
More info: the TOP 1% of income earners pay 33.6% of all the taxes!
"We captured Saddam Hussein, there were no weapons of mass destruction:"
Despite the mainstream media and the Democrats' lying to the contrary, several chemical weapons have been found that qualify as WMD. But people have ignored the evidence...since it would blow a hole in their 'Bush Lied, people died' nonsense. To be fair, the Bush Administration has done little to correct the record on this issue.
Now a new report from the Pentagon sheds some light on just how many WMDs have been found, and it's a lot. We're not just talking an old Sarin shell here and there. No less than 500 chemical weapons have been found since 2003, according to a recently declassified defense department intelligence report. The weapons are of the mustard gas and Sarin nerve gas variety...nasty stuff.
Can you document the sources on any of your tax figures. I've seen the right wing media figures use some pretty creative math to make their cases.....or just outright lie with math.....most of their followers don't have advanced degrees in quantitative subjects. Oh yes, I know "That Rush Limbaugh is a good man, he wouldn't lie"
Just quick and dirty, people on your low end of 20-30k are in like a 15% tax bracket
People who are in the 100-200K bracket pay about 28% give or take a bit.....and by the way, they have a lot more access to tax avoidance vehicles here, but I won't get into that. I think that the top marginal rate now is like 35%
So ROUGHLY people in the high range pay on percentage basis twice as much tax
So with an equal distribution of the population between the two tax brackets, if the 20-30K set is paying 1.1, then the 100-200K should be paying 2.2%....you claim they are paying 24%
Now, are you really going to tell me that there are as many people in this country making 100-200 as there are making 20-30K.
I'm calling bullshit.
The chemical WMD thing is a mamby-pamby rationalization. The American public was sold on NUKES to have the idiot oil war
This is like the police getting massive funding to to stage a massive multi-state manhunt for a serial murderer........and then them coming back without their killer but saying......"yea, but we picked up a couple of nickel and dime pot dealers"
Yes, Saddam Hussein is a scumbag, and a ruthless cutthroat (although we are finding out the hard way that to some degree he HAD to be to keep the warring factions under control.......however, there are plenty of scumbags who are world leaders......why didn't we take them out......oh yea, they aren't major oil produces.....I suppose it is just an accident that energy prices have doubled.
B9k
Bart,
You forgot to mention that Rush Limbaugh is also a monger. He got busted with his remaining Viagra stash upon returning from a pussy pounding trip to the Dominican Republic. ;)
I actually sent that story suggestion to a major national newspaper......trying to demonstrate that once again, the guardians of our moral values don't hold themselves to the standards they prescribe for the rest of us.
Here is the funny thing. This prefer anal guy is probably a social liberal if he is posting on this board, but ID's with the right wing because of their bullshit about taxes, business, and economics. I actually used to be like this until I became highly educated in those subjects
B9k
Yes and just how are we going to pay for this senseless war. The one that we are borrowing money to pay for. Then on top of that Dumbo and Cheney are sucking up to their corporate buddies to give amnesty to the unknown number of illegal aliens. Each and every one of them are going to have 3-10 children that are also going to need amnesty, welfare, food stamps, government housing, free health care, ect.
We have 300,000 homeless veterans in this country who went to war for us but instead of helping them we have to roll out the red carpet for a bunch of fucking wetbacks. The terrorists we need to worry about are U.S, Citizens who reside in Washington, D.C. I for one am very proud to say that I did not vote for him.
OK
You are on the right track here, so I won't berate you:)
Social spending is a pittance relative to what is kicked over to the military industrial complex, and other corporations usually in the form of tax breaks. I't's basically a non issue that the right uses to drum up business......it's easy to do because it's a visible issue, and on the surface reeks of unfairness, and paritism of people who are different from you....it is human nature to be resentful given that level of information about a subject. If it werent' there, there would be people starving (and killing and stealing) in the streets (yes, I know, some of them put themselves in the situation through stupidity and irresponsibility), and we as a relatively wealthy nation find this to be unseemly enough to throw a little money at it
I don't know a lot about the situation with the veterans......you should check your stats however....as I proved below, a lot of people just flat out lie when they are trying to get funding and political support.
The big complaint with imigrants is that they are taking jobs.. Here is the thing. I work with a lot of these guys....in my estimation, they mostly have a sixth grade education, and know maybe 100 words in English. Now even if they are willing to work harder for less money, do you know anyone who can't compete successfully with someone like this......if in fact you do, they are probably going to be at the bottom of the heap anyways.
Also, increasing the population of working poor is good for the economy.......THEY BUY THINGS (on a percentage basis much more than wealthy people-I can put you to sleep with econ talk if you want me to), which creates profit, and spurs additional demand.....increases the demand for labor, which increases wages across the board.
B9k
I know I should keep my mouth shut but here goes.
The average illegal alien costs $87,000 more than they will ever produce and that's before Social Security is added in. The average family of 4 in California costs the taxpayers $57,000 per year!
It does't save the US economy money. If it did, why do the states with the largest illegal populations have massive budget problems? It is cost shifting; so one person gets thier lawn cut cheaper but we all subsidize it through taxes.
Military spending as a percentage of the overall budget is historically and for a time of war it is unheard of.
Over 65% of the Federal Budget is entitlements: Medicaid, Medicare, Welfare, Food Stamps, etc. All programs started since WWII and dramatically expanded under Johnson during the War of Poverty. We have spent trillions on that war with very little sign of success. When do we "redeploy" on subsidizing failure?
Why pay billions for illegal aliens on one hand and pay billions in welfare subsidizing unemployment and failure on the other? Call me crazy but somethings wrong with this picture.
Of course the poor buy more than the rich as they are an overwhelmingly larger group of people. If the aliens come here to just work they aren't hurting the economy but, when the majority of them are sending every dime they can out of the country, how is this helping the economy?
Once they become citizens they are going to change drastically. Just watch and see, perhaps you work with some of them but, I have lived and worked in their country for many years and have a son there. Once you have witnessed the average level of class and living standards you won't want 50 million of them living in your country. Yes there are some good people there but not many of them swim the river.
The point is why must be bend over backwards to help these illegal aliens when we have plenty of U.S. citizens who should be helped first. This is indeed going to add heavily to an already ridiculous debt we have, and the only way it will ever be paid back is by increasing taxes. My wife is from Colombia and I spent over 10,000 USD and almost 2 years to get her here. Then these assholes want to allow the illegals to stay without any punishment and be granted amnesty? Yes I have a big problem with this.
If this goes through then they should refund every dollar spent on immigration and filing fees to each and every person who ever brought an alien here as a spouse. Also, an immigrant coming in on a K1 or any other immigrant visa must have extensive health checks, bloodwork, and medical reviews performed prior to entry. Upon entry, before their status can be adjusted these procedures must be done again in the U.S. Who is going to examine these people. I won't count on that happening but it isn't going to matter to me. If Bush doesn't get us blown off of the map before he gets out of office I will soon be residing outside of the United States. It will take me about 3 years to make this happen but I refuse to have my tax dollars spent on paying for a war a I never supported or feeding some illegal alien's kid.
Hillary or McCain in 2008? Makes one shudder at the thought.
The 300,000 was a figure that my mother (a private high school teacher) got from some source but here is what I found:
According to the United States Department of Veterans Affairs (“VA”), nearly 33% of the nation’s adult homeless population served in the United States Armed Services. The VA further states that on any given day, as many as 200,000 male and female veterans are living on the streets or in shelters, and perhaps twice as many experience homelessness at some point during the course of a year. As if to underscore the seriousness of the problem of homeless military veterans throughout the nation, the VA characterizes the predicament another way: currently, the number of homeless male and female Vietnam era veterans is greater than the number of service persons who died during the Vietnam War.
VIVA LA MIGRA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Does this mean that we need to help every homeless person who ever served in the armed forces ? No it doesn't but, these people served their country and should rank higher on the help list than illegal aliens.
[QUOTE=Beavis]The 300,000 was a figure that my mother (a private high school teacher) got from some source but here is what I found:
According to the United States Department of Veterans Affairs (“VA”), nearly 33% of the nation’s adult homeless population served in the United States Armed Services. The VA further states that on any given day, as many as 200,000 male and female veterans are living on the streets or in shelters, and perhaps twice as many experience homelessness at some point during the course of a year. As if to underscore the seriousness of the problem of homeless military veterans throughout the nation, the VA characterizes the predicament another way: currently, the number of homeless male and female Vietnam era veterans is greater than the number of service persons who died during the Vietnam War.
VIVA LA MIGRA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/QUOTE]
A couple things real quick...
Are you sure that there is a disproportionate percentage of the general populace that are homeless vets. What percentage of the overall populace currently living did serve in the Vietnam war......I don't know for sure, but it is possible that there is simply a representative cross sample and you (with encouragement) are focusing on the vets.
Homelessness itself is a complex issue (correlates highly with mental illness and substance abuse), and it cannot necessarily be solved by simply writing a check. This is a wild ass guess, but I strongly suspect that even if we were to give every homeless vet 4 months rent free in a decent apartment, $1500, and a decent job that would more than pay his rent and living expenses, he would still be back on the street in a short time. It might astound you to know (this is something I've heard, but don't have a source)for example that when it gets to be -15 to -20 in Chicago, the police round up the homeless guys to make them go to a shelter.....and a good number of them have to be dragged, kicking and screaming all the way there.
Service to country is awfully abstract, and hard to quantify(for recompense).....you are basically saying that our Vietnam vets got a raw deal....you won't get an argument from me about that, although military service (assuming you don't get killed doing it) is like anything else you get out of it what you put into it. My father volunteered for Vietnam (though he was going to get drafted anyways), got out after 5 years, and then served another 17 in reserve, a good portion of that time as n E-8, getting nice fat paychecks for a part time career...now when he retires in 18 months, he is going to get big fat pension, on top of his big fat pension from work (he went to college free on the GI bill by the way-I owe 52K myself), Social Security, and healthy personal savings.
I hear you about the hassles in bringing your wife here legally....my take on this however isn't that everyone should have to suffer like you did.....but that NO ONE should.
B9k
Adding on: I realized what was bothering me about the situation....the problems aren't the least bit interrelated in my opinion. In my estimation, you could line a National Guardsman every 10 feet along the border with orders to shoot to kill, round up all the others, and ship them back, and you would still have your veteran problems....on the other hand, you could open the borders and let every Juan, Julio and Sergio in Mexico (yes I'm ignoring illegals from other parts of the world) come up here to work if they feel like it.....and still have your vet problems.
I was going to bring up some stat mumbo jumbo about skewed samples, and the tail wagging the dog, but I don't think it's necessary in light of the preceding.
Regardless of the # of vets, it was simply an example that we have plenty of problems here we should address before we try to fix everybody elses. The immigration bill is a joke but then again, what has this adminstration did that wasn't a joke? Just my opinion but, my mnd is made up I am out of here ASAP prediction 06/01/09. By then we should have plenty of homeless Mexicans so we will see how they get treated. I could give a Rat's ass, lol.
[QUOTE=Ocean Traveler]I know I should keep my mouth shut but here goes.
The average illegal alien costs $87,000 more than they will ever produce and that's before Social Security is added in. The average family of 4 in California costs the taxpayers $57,000 per year!
It does't save the US economy money. If it did, why do the states with the largest illegal populations have massive budget problems? It is cost shifting; so one person gets thier lawn cut cheaper but we all subsidize it through taxes.
Military spending as a percentage of the overall budget is historically and for a time of war it is unheard of.
Over 65% of the Federal Budget is entitlements: Medicaid, Medicare, Welfare, Food Stamps, etc. All programs started since WWII and dramatically expanded under Johnson during the War of Poverty. We have spent trillions on that war with very little sign of success. When do we "redeploy" on subsidizing failure?
Why pay billions for illegal aliens on one hand and pay billions in welfare subsidizing unemployment and failure on the other? Call me crazy but somethings wrong with this picture.[/QUOTE]
Ok, quote your sources, and substantiate it....this sounds like more Rush Limbaugh or clone therof type bullshit.....now there may be a grain of truth to this-what I have been maybe somewhat erroneously referring to as social spending is welfare, subsidized housing, and food stamps, which don't amount to much in the grand scheme of things....if you throw in subsidized student loans, medicaid and medicare, school lunches, and whatever, it may get to be a decent sized chunk..........I have to ask this however.....do you REALLY want to get rid of say Medicaid/Medicare? I have an 86 year old Grandmother who is in the hospital about every 3-4 months, plus takes all kinds of expensive pills etc. Do you have ny idea what health insurance for her would cost? If you could even get a private insurer to write her a policy, it would probably cost between $1000-2000 a month. The government at least has the ability to dictate terms and regulations to health care providers, and is consequently at an advantage for purchasing healthcare for senior citizens. Same thing with student loans and other education entitlements.....are you aware that a large segment of African Americans have come up from generally lesser means and become upper middle class/lower upper class ("blackistocracy")......alot of this was because education entitlements helped get them educated, into non-menial jobs, and eventually a great success. If they didn't have those, many would probably, well frankly still poor and would be getting maligned by you for getting social benefits for that....talk about damned if you do, damned if you don't........
By the way do you have any idea what we give to scummy corporations in the form of tax breaks?
B9k
[QUOTE=Prefer Anal][QUOTE=Digital Curry]"Almost everyone here seems to be missing the point.
Wake up people! The top 1/4 of 1% have received 75% of the tax cuts."
They deserve the tax cuts:
People with incomes $200,000 and over pay 42.7% of the taxes, $377 Billion.
People with incomes $100,000 to 200,000 pay 24.1% of the taxes, $213 Billion.
People with incomes $75,000 to 100,000 pay 12.8% of the taxes, $113 Billion.
People with incomes 50,000 to 75,000 pay 12.9% of the taxes $114 Billion.
People with incomes of $40,000 to 50,000 pay 4.4% of the taxes, or $39 Billion, and
people with incomes of$30,000 to 40,000 pay only 3.4% of the taxes, or $30 Billion!
Finally, people with incomes of only $20,000 to 30,000 pay only 1.1% of the taxes, or $10 Billion!
More info: the TOP 1% of income earners pay 33.6% of all the taxes!
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Bart9000]Can you document the sources on any of your tax figures. I've seen the right wing media figures use some pretty creative math to make their cases.....or just outright lie with math.....most of their followers don't have advanced degrees in quantitative subjects...I'm calling bullshit.
[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.house.gov/jec/publications/109/rr109-36.pdf[/url]
Some examples:
AGI $200,000 and over pay ~$313 Billion
AGI $100,000 to 200,000 pay ~$163 Billion
AGI $20,000 to 30,000 pay ~$9 Billion
The top 1% of tax filers paid 34.27% of federal personal income taxes in 2003.
Bullshit is in the eye of the beholder.
[QUOTE=Beavis]Does this mean that we need to help every homeless person who ever served in the armed forces ? No it doesn't but, these people served their country and should rank higher on the help list than illegal aliens.[/QUOTE]
Bravo Beavis...
And veterans who served this country should not be demonized by the leftist in this country either and should not be cheated out of benefits, education and healthcare by the far right....
It is disgraceful to see veterans treated so shamefully......
I totally agree. I have never served in the armed forces and nobody in my family ever has either so I am not at all biased by this. I was merely trying to demonstrate how our leaders could do a better job of establishing their priorities. The sad part is the future doesn't look any brighter. The amnesty is only a foundation for undermining the integrity of leadership. To put it in nautical terms the ship is sailing "not under command", which means by some unusual circumstances they are unable to comply with the rules.
Since there is a good level of intellect involved in this thread:
Who actually believes that Ken Lay is dead? His death was awful convienient at a prominent time? He was cremated so his ashes could be left over from the party they had before he left the country. I say B.S.but have only theory.
Anyway enough of that. Since we haven't got the alligators in place yet:
[url]http://www.resist.com/other/border_patrol.swf[/url]
It won't be too much longer you will find me near some large mountains sipping a cold Aguila.
[QUOTE=hardbarg][QUOTE=Prefer Anal]
[url]http://www.house.gov/jec/publications/109/rr109-36.pdf[/url]
Some examples:
AGI $200,000 and over pay ~$313 Billion
AGI $100,000 to 200,000 pay ~$163 Billion
AGI $20,000 to 30,000 pay ~$9 Billion
The top 1% of tax filers paid 34.27% of federal personal income taxes in 2003.
Bullshit is in the eye of the beholder.[/QUOTE]
Ok,
Appearently, my quick and dirty analysis was in error. There are a lot of flat out lies and bullshit out there, and I mistakenly assumed that this was something cooked up by some asshole on talk radio (leftists are also guilty of lying like sacks os shit........in the eighties, it got widely reported that there were like 10 Million homeless......it turned out to be a massive exaggeration created out of thin air by an activist named Mitch Snyder) Although I believe myself to be more or less correct about the rates paid, I forgot about the social engineering that is administered through the tax code. Now some parts of that engineering I agree with (mortgage interest deduction-about the only fighting chance that a lot of families have towards decent retirement is complete home ownership), and others I have some issues with (child deductions-pay for your own fucking kids.) Another is the earned income tax credit, which I will have a word or two about:
The purpose of the earned income tax credit is to incentivise a "marginal player", right on the border of not needing social services to work, and hopefully some day earn enough to be fully self sufficient. I'll come back to this in a minute.
I can see where someone would be profoundly offended at the appeareant unfairness of the situation of "being Atlas", and carrying the weight of society on your shoulders.
However, I have to say a few things....first of all....who gives a fuck about the aggregate-the world isn't composed of two people, one rich and paying for 96% of public services, the other poor, and getting a free ride. Each person only files one personal tax return, and the amounts paid don't look too much like sodomy to me.....without looking again, the group between 100-200K pays on average about 18,000.....just pulling out a number of say 119,000, that is about 15%.........SCANDALOUS....the aggregate numbers quoted say more about the wealth and success of a good portion of our county than they do imply any unfairness in the amount of "load" being carried.
Let me lay something out here. It is a little more complex, and less easy to come to than a conclusion of "I'm the workhorse carrying a bunch of deadbeats"
First of all, were you to increase the tax burden on the low end, you would likely knock the people receiving the earned income credit out of the workforce and into being recipients of social services......then you might actually have something to cry about with the new number people on welfare/food stamps/section 8 housing.....currently the percentage spent on those programs is minimal (I don't have any exact figures handy)
Furthermore, there is more interdependence between high income earners and low than most people realize. People who earn high incomes do so because ultimately, they, or someone they work for sells something. Low income earners BUY THINGS......and do so at much higher percentages (and incidently generally buy things that are much more profitable to the seller) than do the more affluent (this is known in econ as the marginal propensity to save/marginal propensity to consume). . This spending of theirs (which gets repeated inciently as the same dollar gets spent time and again by low wage workers, being paid by the wealthy as demand for products and services continues-refered to as the multiplier effect) is what is ultimately putting the fat paycheck into the high earners pocket. Just pulling some numbers out of the air, someone could make 1 million a year at a 34% bracket, or (due to a reduction in economic activity) $500,000 at 17% basically a wash.........although the real life interaction is obviously more complex than this, I think I made my point.
B9k
PS Regarding Ken Lay's death, I would like to have the corpse DNA tested, with the process overseen by Michael Moore, Al Franken, Senator Joseph Biden, and about a half dozen pissed off investors.
[QUOTE=Bart9000]I actually sent that story suggestion to a major national newspaper......trying to demonstrate that once again, the guardians of our moral values don't hold themselves to the standards they prescribe for the rest of us.
Here is the funny thing. This prefer anal guy is probably a social liberal if he is posting on this board, but ID's with the right wing because of their bullshit about taxes, business, and economics. I actually used to be like this until I became highly educated in those subjects
B9k[/QUOTE]I also consider myself highly educated in these subjects, but not elitist....and get my news/facts from a variety of sources. Yes, I could be considered a social liberal, but do not "ID" with the right wing anymore than I do the left. I consider myself more libertarian than anything. I don't consider the "right wing" stance on taxes, business, and economics to be any more/less bullshit than the left's.
There is a difference between marginal tax rate and mean collected tax rate. In other words: someone earning a small income may be in the 15% marginal rate but after all their deductions they don’t pay 15%. What they pay is the mean collected tax rate which is more like 3%. The rich may be at a 24% rate but after all their tax planning they end up at 21%. If you compare the mean collected rates you have succeeded in “soaking the rich”.
You may not believe it but ask any successful tax accountant.
The Income Tax numbers are subject to a lot of emotional debate but they are only a small part of the Federal Budget. There are a lot of very educated members out there who could supply the correct number but I will guess 35%. The rest of the budget is all the other forms of taxes such as cigarette, alcohol, fuel, excise, corporate income, franchise, import, communication, gaming, unemployment and other taxes. Haven’t you heard about Tax Freedom Day? It’s around May 1st.
The low earners pay a disproportionate share of taxes as a function of spendable income. Stand in line at a convenience store and watch the poor buying cigarettes, beer and lottery tickets; all very heavily taxed and all voluntary.
Don’t forget Social Security. It is 13% of your paycheck and uses a broken model. The entire system will be bankrupt in 15 years but that’s another emotional “trigger argument” like Granny’s Medicare.
You can bemoan the tax breaks for the rich corporations, as some one did in response to my earlier post, but where are we going to work? Successful, large corporations are the foundations of powerful economies. The same economies that can afford all the benefits you crave.
The rich start businesses that employ people not the poor. The Federal government cut income taxes yet collected more than ever. How can that be? It works every time it’s tried and as the rich get richer the poor get richer too because there is more jobs with better pay. The underlying economic principals are undeniable.
You wonder why jobs flee the USA? A UAW auto worker costs $72 per hour will all the retirement, lifetime medical benefits and other fringes added in. In China a worker cost $42 a month! For what you pay a UAW employee in 1 day you can hire a Chinaman for over a year and he won’t sue you for wrongful discharge, sexual harassment, repetitive motion injuries or want paid Family Medical Leave. I know, I’ve been there.
Last but not least, quality mongering is very expensive. I have been doing it myself for a few years but only recently found this website. Perhaps my future posts can be in a different section with a few pictures.
Unless of course you would like to know why Latin countries are poor and we are not. The answer is quite simple but doesn’t fit with any of the contemporary emotional arguments.
I understand the appeal of libertarianism, but can't support it. There are places in our society that we need paternalism.
I used to be a financial advisor and was the 401k plan admin of a car dealership. In that capacity, I got to witness John Q Public attempting to act as their own portfolio managers. Saving long boring explanations, suffice it to say that most people are not equipped to successfully manage their own investments.....yet that responsibility has gotten shifted off of the corporations (I've never seen a defined benefit pension plan), and onto "Joe Six pack"......trust me, the results are going to be disastrous, and a lot of people will be working as a greeter at wall mart well into their seventies to keep the bills paid. This includes incidently a lot of whitecollar professional people such as techies and engineers....they tend to think that they know what they are doing, but mostly don't.
Businesses (particularly corporations) have shown countless times that they won't behave themselves if left to their own devices. It is necessary to police them through the SEC, EPA, FDA, etc etc.
Now the fucking social issues however, the government needs to stay the fuck out of.
B9k
If you're poor you need certain things to dull the pain of your miserable existance: cheap beer to forget your reality; high fat foods to ease the hunger; nicotine to feel good; lottery tickets to create false hope; and cheap flesh to expend your frustrations. This last one usually results in poor people having more children than the rich. More children less resources, less opportunity to climb out the gutter. You get the general idea.
Being poor means that you're more likely to do dangerous work, and more likely to get injured, but you're less likely to have health insurance. As a result, while your broken and broke ass is sitting at home the rich get to pay for the up keep of you and the entire tribe.
Does all that suck? Maybe, but you can't be rich unless some other bastard gets to be poor and that is exactly why international mongering exists today. The alternative would be to replace capitalism with socialism. If we had used all of the money spent in Iraq to wipe out poverty in Latin America, for example, the region would cease to be a mongering destination. The women would become accustomed to a standard of living much like the US and demand much higher prices. Just take a look at some of the grumbling in the Colombia thread due to the recent sharp price increases caused by an influx of free spending gringos.
As for the illegal immigration issue, it can only be solved by fixing the economies in Mexico and Central America. However, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Financially secure chicas are not going to sell themselves to gringos for a few pesos.
So what do you do? Do you keep them poor and hungry with nice bodies so that they're always be ready to swallow your jizz for a few greenbacks, or do you raise them to the same economic level as American chicks?
I'll leave this moral dilemma for guys like Rush Limbaugh to figure out.
While we are discussing morality, how many people think that Ken Lay is actually dead? I bet he could be reading this.
You American this...You American that...
Truth is American politics and American people are the cause of 90 percent of the world problems.
Your selfish policies and capitalism has virtually destroyed this world....what with global warming, depleting natural resources, high fuel prices, war in every continent in the name of democrazy...You guys are the cause for every major event in the world now a days...
Ohhh god...from where to begin your sorry a s s state of affairs....You guys have left such a huge mess in the past 200 years of your history..that it will take another millenia to clear up your mess...
There are virtually millions of issues that you guys have put your hands on and burned the whole world in it...
This is now impossible for a man or even a university to guage the mess you guys have created.
I will try and start with the hot burning issue thats threateing to start another world war.
Yes, The Isreal thing...What's with you guys and Israel...are you guys in blind love with Israel or something....just like what ameircan women does and you guys rant about it in just the other thread out here.....Israel too does the same thing...takes everything from your country in the name of aid and development and does everything opposite in the name of self defense ..mass murder and genocide...
Tell me one thing....The Arabs in the middle-east have not even killed a "SINGLE" Jew during the world war....All the atrocities, holocaust, mass murder were carried out by The Europeans. Then why make Arabs suffer for the crime's done in europe. Why not make the germans answerable or take care of the JEWS now.
Where are you guys now, You will not get to see the real picture what's hapenning in the middle east, 'cos all your media CNN, FOX, ABC is just a propaganda tool, they do not show the pain and grief of innocents .....I hate too the arabs and the terrorist alike..BUT why make the innocent children and pregnant women suffer ...is it fair...
300 Killed in lebanon...25 killed in Isreal till date..Is it fair at all....They are bombarding the airport, bridges, power house....think if ever..the terrorist will hide there ....
If you guys have the courage...go through the land and pin point the terrorists and kill them...whole world is with you..BUT why just aimlessly bombard the whole city of innocents..does it have any meaning..
Where are you guys now..The richest nation on the planet...the most charitable nation on earth...Not even an ink here ...Just complete silence....
You are one fortunate guy!
I only wish I could happily blame everything; every injustice, every tragedy, every pulled muscle or pimple on my ass, on the USA.
I suggest a total boycott. Why don´t you give up everything from the evil empire? Start with your Pentium chip.
That will show them!
for future reference, do things in the following order:
1 - learn english.
2 - study history.
3 - post on the internet.
[quote=born loser 5]tell me one thing....the arabs in the middle-east have not even killed a "single" jew during the world war....all the atrocities, holocaust, mass murder were carried out by the europeans. then why make arabs suffer for the crime's done in europe. why not make the germans answerable or take care of the jews now.[/quote]from [url]http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_during_ww2.php[/url]
the arabs took the side of the axis, either overtly like iraq or indirectly by withholding support for the allies. grand mufti of jerusalem haj amin al-husseini issued a fatwa- "summons to a holy war against britain" in may 1941. the mufti's widely heralded proclamation against britain was declared in iraq, where he was instrumental in "the pro-nazi" iraqi revolt of 1941. british troops put down the rebellion and the mufti escaped via tehran to italy and eventually to berlin.
once in berlin, the mufti received an enthusiastic reception by the "islamische zentralinstitut" and the whole islamic community of germany, which welcomed him as the "führer of the arabic world." in an introductory speech, he called the jews the "most fierce enemies of the muslims" and an "ever corruptive element" in the world.
husseini soon became an honored guest of the nazi leadership and met on several occasions with hitler. he personally lobbied the führer against the plan to let jews leave hungary, fearing they would immigrate to palestine. he also strongly intervened when adolf eichman tried to cut a deal with the british government to exchange german pows for 5000 jewish children who also could have fled to palestine. the mufti's protests with the ss were successful, as the children were sent to death camps in poland instead. one german officer noted in his journals that the mufti would liked to have seen the jews "preferably all killed." on a visit to auschwitz, he reportedly admonished the guards running the gas chambers to work more diligently. throughout the war, he appeared regularly on german radio broadcasts to the middle east, preaching his pro-nazi, anti-semitic message to the arab masses back home.
haj amin al-husseini eventually died in exile in 1974. his place as leader of the radical, nationalist palestinian arabs was taken by his nephew mohammed abdel-raouf arafat as qudwa al-hussaeini, better known as yasser arafat.
[QUOTE=Occam]Haj Amin al-Husseini eventually died in exile in 1974. His place as leader of the radical, nationalist Palestinian Arabs was taken by his nephew Mohammed Abdel-Raouf Arafat As Qudwa al-Hussaeini, better known as Yasser Arafat.[/QUOTE]
Intelligent post, Occam. Note that equally intelligent posts can be made which favor the Palestinians and other Arabs and do not favor the Jews/Israelis. The whole story of Avraham Stern and his gang of terrorists is never mentioned in the media. He makes Arafat look like a boy scout. The British eventually did to him what the Israelis do to Hamas, "targeted killing". Yitzak Shamir and Menachem Begin were also terrorists and blew up the King David Hotel. They killed dozens of British soldeirs, Arabs civilians, AND Jewish civilians in that and other bombings.
[QUOTE=Born Loser 5]The Arabs in the middle-east have not even killed a "SINGLE" Jew during the world war....All the atrocities, holocaust, mass murder were carried out by The Europeans. [/QUOTE]I was responding to a specific little bit of propaganda. If you want to try and make "Arafat look like a boy scout", that's your business.
Backlash emerges against Latino culture By Patrik Jonsson, Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
Wed Jul 19, 4:00 AM ET
NORCROSS, GA. - In some ways, the traveling taco stand has become a symbol of the rise of Hispanics in the US. Here in Gwinnett County, Ga., it wasn't any different – until lawmakers outlawed the $1 street-corner taco vendor last month.
Hispanic purveyors of the workingman's lunch represent an immigration policy many Americans feel has gone haywire. In many interior states where the Hispanic immigration had been minimal until recently, residents are encountering more new faces speaking an incomprehensible language and infiltrating street corners with their cilantro-spiced fare.
In resisting the sudden and growing influence of Latino culture, some cities and towns across America are requiring the use of English and restricting culinary mores and even the Hispanic tradition of sitting on the front porch.
"People are ... realizing how much [illegal immigration] is costing them, they watched the May 1 demonstrations, and they are mad," says Richard Lamm, a former Colorado governor, who codirects the Institute for Public Policy Studies in Denver. "They're reaching for whatever tool is available, and some of those tools are harsh and not very sophisticated."
More Hispanics – legal and illegal – live in Gwinnett County than anywhere else in Georgia. The Hispanic population in the county has swelled to more than 105,000, expanding from 10 to 15 percent of the total since 2000, according to the US Census. Displays of Hispanic culture – from used tire shops to carnicerías, or butcher shops – dot the Buford Highway in Norcross, Ga., a bustling outpost of Atlanta.
The influx of immigrants in states outside the Big Six immigration states – California, New York, Illinois, New Jersey, Texas, and Florida – has changed the landscape so dramatically, so quickly, that the voting constituency has hardly been able to keep up, experts say. In 2002, illegal immigrants living in the US used $2,700 worth of government services per person more than they paid in taxes, according to the Center for Immigration Studies, an organization that advocates curtailing immigration levels.
Powerless to seal or control the US borders themselves, locals are taking their own action.
Last month, the Gwinnett County Board of Commissioners became one of the first in the country to ban mobile taco stands, which officials said were cluttering street corners. One Gwinnett politician described the proliferation of rolling taco stands as "gypsy-fication."
Nashville, Tenn., is now considering a similar law. "I don't think you'd see this generalized fear if they were selling grits," says William Frey, a demographer at the Brookings Institution in Washington.
Others have taken even more flagrant actions toward Hispanic immigrants. A Philadelphia sub shop owner, Joseph Vento, has a sign up that reads: "This is America. When Ordering, Speak English." In Ohio, Butler County Sheriff Richard Jones has put up a yellow sign saying "Illegal Aliens Here," with an arrow pointing to the county jail.
The mayor of Hazleton, Pa., Friday signed a law that punishes landlords for renting to illegals and mandates that all official city business be conducted in English. Since 2000, the percentage of Latinos in Hazleton has jumped from 5 percent to nearly 30 percent.
" ... [T]o illegal immigrants and those who would hire or abet them in any way ... You are no longer welcome," Mayor Lou Baretta wrote in a letter posted on the city's website.
While anti-immigrant hate groups increased 33 percent in the past five years, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center, overall acceptance of immigration is at a five-year high, according to a recent Gallup Poll.
"What we're seeing is little towns in Kansas trying to ban people from sitting on their front porch, because that's what [Hispanics] do," says Gabriela Lemus, of the League of United Latin American Citizens in Washington. "On the other hand, there is a real challenge in places like Little Rock, Ark., and Cicero, Ill., where [towns] aren't prepared for a community they didn't expect to have."
To Mexicans, "tacos are life," says Juan Martinez, a construction worker in Norcross. Mr. Martinez, a green-card holder from central Mexico, prefers to make his own tacos, but says that mobile taco stands serve many Hispanic workers stuck at construction sites. The lack of protest about the ban in Gwinnett County doesn't surprise him. "This is not our country, we don't have the power," Martinez says. "[Americans] are going to do what they're going to do."
Still, these restrictions come about because of inaccurate stereotypes that all Hispanics are undocumented or poor, says Dan Tichenor, an immigration expert at the Eagleton Institute of Politics in New Brunswick, N.J. "Getting nostalgic about our own immigrant past, but dreading the latest newcomers, is something that has been around since Ben Franklin," he says.
The local ordinances are a forerunner to developing a national policy for immigration reform, says Mr. Frey. "Part of the price we have to pay before we come up with reasonable national solutions is this kind of interim action where local officials try to grandstand for small political gains," he says.
But such ordinances are little more than "feel-good" efforts by frustrated Americans, says Robert Nilles, a Hazleton city councilor. "It's a little funny in a way, because you're trying to control something you have no control over," he says.
occam, [i caught you red handed] [guys, get ready for the truth]
ooooooo..i'm so scared :) are you from fbi, cia or some propaganda group run by american govenrment :d
folks. a quick check of [url]http://www.palestinefacts.org[/url] on whois.net reveals this strange facts:
domain id:81676797-lrms
domain name:palestinefacts.org
created on:27-dec-2001 21:20:24 utc
last updated on:12-jun-2006 18:15:01 utc
expiration date:27-dec-2008 21:20:24 utc
sponsoring registrar:network solutions llc (r63-lrms)
status:client transfer prohibited
registrant id:17703129-nsiv
registrant name:zoa
registrant organization:zoa
registrant street1:attn insert domainname here
registrant street2:care of network solutions
registrant street3:po box 447
registrant city:herndon
registrant state/province:va
registrant postal code:20172
registrant country:us
registrant phone:+1.5707088780
registrant phone ext.:
registrant fax:
registrant fax ext.:
registrant *****************@networksolutionsprivateregistration.com
admin id:17703129-nsiv
admin name:zoa
admin organization:zoa
admin street1:attn insert domainname here
admin street2:care of network solutions
admin street3:po box 447
admin city:herndon
admin state/province:va
admin postal code:20172
admin country:us
admin phone:+1.5707088780
admin phone ext.:
admin fax:
admin fax ext.:
admin *****************@networksolutionsprivateregistration.com
tech id:5358805-nsi
tech name:network solutions, llc.
tech organization:network solutions, llc.
tech street1:13200 woodland park drive
tech street2:
tech street3:
tech city:herndon
tech state/province:va
tech postal code:20171-3025
tech country:us
tech phone:+1.188864296
tech phone ext.:
tech fax:+1.5714344620
george90,
you are right, i have hardcore proof and it will be an eye opener to all.
at first, you would think why would the site do not have any contact us, about us page and why would the site on palestine, be run from us of a virgina state, that to hiding the address of the web site administrator.
since, when we americans have so much interests in palenstine history :)
now, here is the big ball of propaganda:
registrant name:zoa
registrant organization:zoa
now, who the heck is this zoa, how are they to know everything about palestine...no name, no organisation, no contacts..just zoa....hmmmmmm..let me check ever reliable google for answers....
hurreyyyy.....yurekaaaaaaaa..yahoooooo...seeeemmsss like zoa throws up 100000 hits....
the very first site folks:
[url]www.zoa.org[/url]
translated into, "the zionist organization of america" hahahaha :d
do i need to write more....seems like mr. occam is a life long member of this organisation hell bent on brain-washing innocent and ignorent american minds.
looks like there are thousands of such sites run by zoa across the internet, intended on spreading false information to get sympathy from america and hiding the facts from common people.
a little peep on the website is more reveling:
what is the zoa?
since its founding in 1897, the zionist organization of america has been fighting for the jewish people and the land of israel. under the leadership of such illustrious presidents as supreme court justice louis brandeis, rabbi dr. abba hillel silver, and current national president morton a. klein, the zoa has been on the front lines of jewish activism.
wherever our message is needed, our voice is being heard.
the zoa is the only organization that documents and exposes palestinian arab violations of the road map plan. the zoa leads the efforts on behalf of american victims of palestinian arab terrorism. the zoa's campaigns have repeatedly led to the defeat of hostile critics of israel who were nominated for important government positions.
the zoa has played a key role in congress regarding victims of terrorism, keeping jerusalem unified under israeli sovereignty, fighting hamas and fatah, and working on the imposition of sanctions on syria and saudi arabia.
the zoa speaks out for israel - in reports, newsletters, and other publications...in speeches in synagogues, churches, and community events, in high schools and colleges from coast to coast...in e-mail action alerts...in op-eds and letters to the editor...in radio and television appearances by zoa leaders.
always on the front lines of pro-israel activism, zoa has made its mark.
"the zoa is the most credible advocate for israel on the american jewish scene today."
the wall street journal
"the zoa is one of the most important and influential jewish groups in the u.s. today."
the jerusalem post
ohhh..boy..i'm exhausted, with the kind of false propaganda that has being infilterated into the american minds...making them hate innocent people around the world.
folks...its time to wake up to the facts..not get your mind washed up on propaganda. our media 24/7 is falsifying the facts and making us believe in commiting mass-murder in the name of jewish protection.
to make it a point i'm no muslim, i'm a christian but does anything justifies the killing of thousands of innocent children and pregnant women anywhere in the world.
american's are very powerful, if you guys do not act with a right mind and just act on false propaganda ..we might be closer to the third world war...
arise, awake america...unless its too late !!
[QUOTE=Born Loser 5]Translated into, "The Zionist Organization of America" hahahaha :D
Do I need to write more. Seems like Mr. Occam is a life long member of this organisation [/QUOTE]Maybe you'd like to share with us how you determined this, since I have no relation to this organization whatsoever.
[QUOTE=Born Loser 5]this organisation hell bent on brain-washing Innocent and Ignorent American minds.[/QUOTE]Clearly you believe that hanging the description Jew or Zionist on anything is sufficient to "prove" it represents a sinister conspiracy. I don't care about your religious beliefs, but you sure do sound like the mullahs in Tehran.
Now that you're finished hyperventilating about your groundbreaking discovery of Jews on the internet (or maybe you'd prefer "dirty Jews"), how about dealing with the facts. Got anything to say about Grand Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini's resume?
You gotta love a guy who calls other people ignorent - and misspells “ignorant”.
The article you mentioned was not written by a "Credible Historian"..But was simply the handiwork of some craft minds..Intended on spreading there own agenda.
well..to make things equal...here is my propaganda :D
July 21, 2006
Ghost in the Machine
by John Mackenzie
Reflexive Interventionism, senseless intrusion in wars that are not America’s concern has been the hallmark of post Breton Woods Foreign policy. They may have been presented as well intentioned and appeared as such, but were purely in the interest of Plutocratic hegemony.
A "virtuous nation" or so we are repeatedly informed: rich, powerful, god faring and above all else... we are good.
The "Axis of evil" is bad. This is our ever present policy, a "War on Terror."
The Axis apparently stumbled upon the Declaration of our Independence and went ballistic.
"When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."
We are not hated for our principles; the "bad" people of the world hate us for our actions.
Unfortunately, we have not held true to these principles. We are instead behaving as though we are unilaterally entitled to impose our noble motives upon others whom disagree with our neo-imperialistic motivations.
If you walk upon scorpions, you are going to be stung.
America was the shimmering light, the beacon of hope, a defender of the oppressed. That image, one we earned for ourselves upon ourselves, has dissolved. People of many nations presently view the United States as an oppressive and arrogant empire; one which spreads its cultural hedonism with intemperance, propping up dictatorships in order to flaunt its power.
"the champion and vindicator only of her own." wrote John Quincy Adams.
Are Oil and Israel so vital we should risk our own peace and liberty, are there not alternatives? We have given Israel $120 Billion Dollars in US Aid and Military Armaments over the last 33 years; they posses north of 200 Ballistic Missiles, capable of rendering the Mid East uninhabitable for millennia. Israel looks after Israel first and foremost.
We are quite capable of the doing precisely the same.
Creeping annexation of lands in Gaza, the West Bank and Jerusalem is the root cause of modern hatreds towards the "good" in a corner of the world rich in Oil. Today, Congress provided absolution for its continuance, the hubris is obvious. We are "good."
Israel is not hated for its principles, but its actions.
We are hated for supporting them. Foreign policy no longer protects our freedom, our citizens and our honor.
Thomas Jefferson wrote: "peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations... entangling alliances with none."
Our founding fathers have been disgraced once again:
"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."
The strength of Islam lay within the moral realm. The path fostered through transgressions of the material realm will be America’s greatest obstacle. Polar opposites, destined for a clash should we continue upon our present path of self-indulgent, milquetoast hypocrisy... self determination should be allowed its destiny.
Our nation should revert back to one of preservation and liberty. Equivalent justice, honest money... the unimpeded pursuit of property and happiness are assured. The fate of every other nation before who chose the material course over morality, imperialism over their republic...
It did not end well.
Hegemonic dominance cannot be sustained, empires rise and fall. Ours may end up the quickest round trip in history.
I've been trying to keep all this brief since it's generally so far off topic.
Now that you have brought someone else in to do your thinking and talking for you I'm afraid I may be forced to be as long winded as you. I'll be taking this in pieces.
At least you're honest enough this time to identify it as propaganda.
[QUOTE=Born Loser 5]The article you mentioned was not written by a "Credible Historian"..But was simply the handiwork of some craft minds[/QUOTE] I got involved in this because of historical distortions in your original posting. I tried to educate you to the necessity of basing your pronouncements on facts. I even provided you with some examples of what a fact looks like. Unfortunately, some people simply cannot be trained. I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t recognize a "Credible Historian" if one bit you in the ass.
This latest posting is consistent with the rest of your rambling. Short on facts, long on hyperbole. Disconnected, vague assertions, with a couple of new distortions thrown in. Pretentious language, basically incoherent. I can see why it appeals to you.
The general drift is pretty predictable. America - bad. America’s enemies - justified. Israel - the root of all evil. Intangible conspiracies to tie it all together. The usual stuff. Well, you’re entitled to your opinion, or rather Mr. Mackenzie’s opinion.
My favorite passage:
[QUOTE=Born Loser 5]The strength of Islam lay within the moral realm. The path fostered through transgressions of the material realm will be America’s greatest obstacle. Polar opposites, destined for a clash should we continue upon our present path of self-indulgent, milquetoast hypocrisy... self determination should be allowed its destiny.[/QUOTE]I’d comment on it, but I haven’t got a clue what it means.
You have had plenty of opportunity to support your version of history, or repudiate mine. You haven’t even attempted to do either, instead producing nonsense like this. I am going to interpret this as your acknowledgment that your statements were deliberate lies, or else, maybe you’re just a garden variety fool.
I think I’m going to quit wasting my time responding to you, at least until your next example of racist disinformation
[QUOTE=Occam]I got involved in this because of historical distortions in your original posting. I tried to educate you to the necessity of basing your pronouncements on facts. I even provided you with some examples of what a fact looks like. Unfortunately, some people simply cannot be trained.
The general drift is pretty predictable. America - bad. America’s enemies - justified. Israel - the root of all evil. Intangible conspiracies to tie it all together. The usual stuff. Well, you’re entitled to your opinion, or rather Mr. Mackenzie’s opinion.
[/QUOTE]
Occam, your level of participation and emotional committent to this thread makes you as bad as you claim Born Loser to be.
There is a saying that just a man is paranoid, it doesn't mean there is no one out to get him. By definition conspiracies are intangible, they are agreements to collude BEFORE an overt act is committed. It so happens that the conspiracy between the US and Israel is an acknowledged one by both the US and Israel. The governments of both countries have publicly stated repeatedly that they share the common goals of defeating terrorism and promoting democracy.
It so happens that 'terrorism' now means opposing Israel on any measure and criticising Israel is now called 'anti-semitism'. While 'democracy' now means electing the government that the US and Israel approve of.
[quote=george90]occam, your level of participation and emotional committent to this thread makes you as bad as you claim born loser to be.[/quote]my “level of participation” consists entirely of responses to other people’s postings. with the exception of the first, all were directed at me personally, just as your’s is once again. as i stated at the end of my last post, i had hoped to bring it to an end. evidently, you don’t want that.
[quote=george90]it so happens that the conspiracy between the us and israel is an acknowledged one by both the us and israel. the governments of both countries have publicly stated repeatedly that they share the common goals of defeating terrorism and promoting democracy.[/quote]defeating terrorism and promoting democracy. interesting you’d describe that as a conspiracy. they’ve probably both agreed that israel should be allowed to continue to exist too, despite the policies of their neighbors. there’s just no limit to the heinousness of this conspiracy.[quote=george90]it so happens that 'terrorism' now means opposing israel on any measure and criticising israel is now called 'anti-semitism'. while 'democracy' now means electing the government that the us and israel approve of.[/quote]well, you’re entitled to your opinion. here’s how i’d describe terrorism:
[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3613953.stm[/url]
“more than one million people have fled sudan's darfur region, the victims of what un officials have described as an "ethnic cleansing" campaign by a group of arab militiamen.
many thousands have been killed and human rights groups say there has been a systematic campaign of [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url], intended to humiliate and punish non-arab groups.
the janjaweed have attacked black africans from the fur, massaleet and zagawa ethnic groups report aid agencies and the refugees themselves. they have killed, raped, maimed, looted and burned down tens of thousands of village homes, displacing hundreds of thousands of people.
correspondents say that many of the men fighting with the janjaweed received military training in libya in the 1980s, when muammar gaddafi set up an "islamic legion" of mercenaries recruited from across north and west africa.
human rights campaigners say the janjaweed militia were armed and recruited by the sudan government.”
.....
any time you or loser want to generate some moral outrage, and direct it at anyone who isn’t israel or the us, just jump right in. maybe then i’ll be impressed by what you consider terrorism. or how to recognize anti-semitism.
I just wish I could meet some of these guys on the streets of New York. I can promise you a very interesting discussion would ensue.
I monitor most of the anti-Israel and anti-U.S. demonstrations in NYC, but I've never seen anything quite at this level. The chanting of "Izbah Al-Yahud" ("Slaughter the Jews") is heard at virtually every demonstration because they think Americans don't understand, but nothing more vicious on a placard than "Crush Israel.
I heard the U.K. taxpayers have forked out nearly one million pounds to pay for police protection of the Finsbury Park crowd (the guy is hanging out of the window of the mosque). Here's an interesting interview with their current leader (the founder of mosque, Abu Hamza, is doing seven years in the can for inciting murder and racial hatred. Pay particular attention to his answer to the question, "Do you consider yourself first a Muslim, or do you consider yourself an Englishman and then a Muslim?" His take on jihad in the religion of peace is also very revealing.
[URL=http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/front/map/abdullah.html]Abu Abdullah[/URL]
Got a feeling those tax pounds could have better been used on the elderly and disabled of London.
Evil
An English musician friend has sent a number of similar photos to me. As a New Yorker I hope when the last stand happens the Islamic invasion commences with their forces crossing the GWB. It will be over in five seconds to our benefit!
Hey there guys,
I viewed those pics from Evil Penivel's recent post. Not really shocking, because most of us know how bad these radical islamic fuckers are.... but why doesn't this get more airtime in the media?
This is the way things are going: Someone in the west (like the Pope for instance) says something about how violent and intiolerant the muslims are and guess what? They react with violence and intolerance.... dancing aroung screaming for bloody vengeance. What happens? We get all flustered and make apologies hoping to settle them down.
Guess what? Every time we do that it only encourages them while reinforcing their opinion that we are weak because we did apologize. We let them come swarming into Europe and North America where they breed like rats and build new mosques every chance they get. Meanwhile they have laws in their own countries forbidding any other religion but Islam.
We need to quit acting like pussies. Next time one of these fuckers issues some decree saying that so and so should die for whatever they said.... we should send a hit squad and have HIM whacked! Lets send infiltrators into evry mosque and bug them and spy on them..... and the next time any of them say death to America or whoever... have their ass deported back to whatever shitty little country they came from. ( after some extensive "interrogation", of course)
My prediction is that things are going to go one of two ways. One, We will keep getting weaker and they will eventually attack us once they get some nukes.... even if it takes them 50 years, they're gonna keep trying. Or two, we will reach a breaking point and people will overcome this politically correct, let's love-everyone-and-be-friends bullshit. The result? We'll have our areas, and they'll have theirs. As in, you do what you like in our land, and we'll do things our way in our country and God help you if you ever try fuck with us again. In fact, there may be a future European Hitler who will rise to power by promising to save Christianity by driving the muslims out of Europe. Think ethnic cleansing on a massive scale.
Sounds like a crappy future? Let's wait and see how it goes.
Rock
Isn't this exactly the place to comment on Congressmen, sex scandals, and hypocrisy.
Rock makes a lot of good points, Now it is worse that the little midget fucker in North Korea has a nuke. he is crazier than Iran and that half-breed fuck down in caracas.
We screwed up also, for we did not rearm Japan. Japan will now get into the game and based on old history- there will be a cold war bewteen Japan and North Korea. Japan is the real target of Kim Jong IL. We all know that he can invade South Korea with his 1.2 million army.
I am sure Chavez will open his big mouth and applaud North Korea. Chavez is really enemy # 1, my reasons:
1. he is closer than anyone else
2> he is funneling a lot of money into Nicaragua and will form an alliance with ortega.
3. He has hezbollah and hamas training in venezuela
4. He wants to attack Colombia, Colombia is our most important alley in south america.
5. He is fucking nuts
we need to assinate him pronto....... To god damm bad democrats.....
Now I have been trying to stay out of flame wars, and I will be abstaining if one develops out of this.......they are WAY too time consuming. However, I have to point something out.
Pretend for a moment that you are the government of a country that has been identified as an enemy of the most powerful military force on the planet. Bad situation already right?
Then imagine that that militarily powerful country has a leader that has publicly acknowledged that he has daily interactive conversations with a divine being.
That leader took power through a judiciary appointment from a supreme court mostly appointed by his father (I believe this is correct-I know there were some concerns about the timing of the retirement of some conservative justices). Despite MASSIVE obvious incompetence and corruption, he retains power in a semi (save possibly for Diebold voting machines) legitimate election.
Furthermore, imagine that leader is widely known to belong to a group of and is unduly influenced by religious extremists who against all reason believe that the Earth is only 6000 years old and that the "End of Days" is near (do the words "Self-fullfilling prophecy mean anything?")
Also, that same leader for no good reason other than enriching his friends in the oil and military-industrial sector, decided to invade and occupy a sovergn nation (I don't want to hear any crap about how "Saddam is a scumbag".....yes he is, but there are lots of others, including as I understand it the President of Khazistan, who dubya had dinner with last week.)
Now if you were say Iran or North Korea, an identified enemy of the US, wouldn't you be a little nervous about your soveirgnty (sp) and security in the face of this behavior? Don't get the idea that I am crazy about them getting nukes, but could you see where they might come to believe that they need the capacity to resort to extreme measures to protect themselves?
Before someone goes screaming about my take on things, remember something "Perception is reality". I hold this perception as a leftist US citizen. What perception do you think that the rulers of Iran and North Korea have?
B9k
[QUOTE=Bart9000]Please respond on AP board-I'll watch for it
So I'm paranoid?
In the last 5 years, the bush administration has:
Obtained the ability to spy on US citizens on US soil.
Obtained the ability to detain as I understand it, anyone classified at the discretion of the bush administration as a "bad person" (I may be overly broad in this characterization, but the spirit remains), and subject them to indefinite detention without benefit of judicial review.
Maintained a policy of labeling anyone who disagrees with their policies as "treasonous" and "a traitor", "emboldening the enemy"....etc.
Shown no indication of slowing or curtailing the continued acquisition of executive power under the auspices of the "war on terror".
Now you may disagree with this, but I don't see where it takes much of a stretch to see where this path is leading........towards "dissidents" (and actually maybe even nonconformists to theocratic hegemony) getting their doors kicked in and disappearing into the night.
Now a lot of people would not want to live in a country like this....hence the result of closed borders to prevent a mass exodus.
Also, why do you assume that Nancy Pelosi is incompetent? Because she is female. I hope not....that would pretty much qualify you towards the mysoginy that the AW board occassionally gets accused of. Otherwise, it would be because her political beliefs (including feminism, which I also disagree with) do not agree with yours. As I stated (using Bob Dole as an example), one does not need to be in political agreement with another to be a competent leader.
Now correct me if I am wrong, but I am of the understand it, the "Speaker" position is one that is elected, by other party members. The ability to get elected politically ot an office, is usually (exceptions exist, such as having your father's supreme court put you into the office, or deceptively utilize a historically unprescedented level of fear mongering to manipulate the public) pretty good tool for determining competence. In order to obtain the Speakership, Representative Pelosi had to convince a majority of a group of people who range from extremely liberal urban black women to "good ol boy" redneck southerners who are pretty much republicans, that she was most qualified to lead the party.
Doesn't that sound a lot the skill set that one would need to say help mediate a peace process between two middle eastern warring factions (pick your poision-Kurds, Shiites, Sunni's Palestinians......) engaged in a dispute?
B9k[/QUOTE]
“So I'm paranoid?” Yep.
“I don't see where it takes much of a stretch to see where this path is leading........towards "dissidents" (and actually maybe even nonconformists to theocratic hegemony) getting their doors kicked in and disappearing into the night.”
That one alone pretty much rings the bell.
In addition, it’s pretty clear you’re also very angry. I’d say hopping mad. My guess is it started on that day in 2000 when Bush and the Republicans “stole” the election. You need to consider the possibility that your attitudes are a bit colored by your anger.
“why do you assume that Nancy Pelosi is incompetent? Because she is female. I hope not....that would pretty much qualify you towards the mysoginy that the AW board occassionally gets accused of.”
My distrust of Ms. Pelosi’s politics does not imply that I hate all women, or even that I hate Ms. Pelosi. I think the word you’re looking for is “sexist”. Either way it’s pretty funny coming from you.
[QUOTE=Bart9000]do you want an easy comfortable life as an upper middle class suburban hausfrau? Then keep the house clean, wrangle the kids (and I'm sick of hearing shit about how they are a "full time job", from women who spend their days watching Oprah, getting their hair done, and drinking coffee at Starbucks), don't turn into a porcine, short haired sex depriving for all practical purposes lesbian.[/QUOTE]
Now that’s sexist, some might even say misogynist.
For that matter, I never said she was incompetent, though I don’t think she’s up to the task of dealing effectively with the guys who have sworn to kill us. I have no doubt Ms. Pelosi is extremely competent in steering government policy in the direction of the “empowerment of women” and in furthering the stock left of center Democratic principals such as tax and spend. I just don’t think that’s particularly good news.
The question is, why do you think she is? You argue that getting elected is an indicator of competence. If one were to accept that premise (I don’t), it would of course apply equally to (for example) George Bush. Your anger doesn’t give you the right to dictate exceptions. You ought to take a look at Ms. Pelosi’s district. San Francisco isn’t exactly mainstream America. It is a good place to be a radical feminista if you want to win elections. To become Speaker of the House she only needs the support of the most partisan half of the Democratic representatives to Congress. A thoroughly insular position.
Sorry, the question remains. You’re the one cheerleading for her. What makes you think she’s qualified to weald this kind of power wisely?
“So I'm paranoid?” Yep.
“I don't see where it takes much of a stretch to see where this path is
leading........towards "dissidents" (and actually maybe even nonconformists to theocratic
hegemony) getting their doors kicked in and disappearing into the night.”
That one alone pretty much rings the bell.
____________________________________________________________________________________________
This is an ad hominem attack, which is a classic logical fallacy. You have instead of
explaining why my assertions are incorrect, chosen instead to characterize me as suffering
from a mental disorder. Try again.
In addition, it’s pretty clear you’re also very angry. I’d say hopping mad. My guess is it
started on that day in 2000 when Bush and the Republicans “stole” the election. You need to
consider the possibility that your attitudes are a bit colored by your anger.
____________________________________________________________________________________________
Yea, I am angry and have been very much so for several years. Having an emotional response
does not invalidate my position.
“why do you assume that Nancy Pelosi is incompetent? Because she is female. I hope
not....that would pretty much qualify you towards the mysoginy that the AW board
occassionally gets accused of.”
My distrust of Ms. Pelosi’s politics does not imply that I hate all women, or even that I
hate Ms. Pelosi. I think the word you’re looking for is “sexist”. Either way it’s pretty
funny coming from you.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
I don't doubt that she may support and advocate legislation (although it has been
conjectured that in order to remain in power, Democrats need to stay away from the social
issues which can serve to galvanize the right wing idiots against the Democratic Party). My
point was that having her in a position to shut down the idiocy of the bush administration
and the scenario I described (which you have failed to effectively refute as you answered my
case with a logical fallacy) by far outweighs any damage that she may do to American male
interests.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart9000
do you want an easy comfortable life as an upper middle class suburban hausfrau? Then keep
the house clean, wrangle the kids (and I'm sick of hearing shit about how they are a "full
time job", from women who spend their days watching Oprah, getting their hair done, and
drinking coffee at Starbucks), don't turn into a porcine, short haired sex depriving for all
practical purposes lesbian.
Now that’s sexist, some might even say misogynist.
____________________________________________________________________________________________
Yes, some might. However, that is my perception-this is an OPINION board after all. And
while I might be accused of stereotyping (certainly there are exceptions), not much more
than a mid afternoon trip to Starbucks in any state of the union can demonstrate a pretty
healthy degree of validity to it(compounded with a night at any gathering of married men,
hearing them complain about not "gettin any"). My personal belief is that women as a gender
are not intrinxically inferior to men in any area except for upper body strength. Problems
arise however because our CULTURE encourages andd incentivises women to "have their cake and
eat it", belive that they are morally and intellectually superior to men, be greedy and
materialistic......
For that matter, I never said she was incompetent, though I don’t think she’s up to the task
of dealing effectively with the guys who have sworn to kill us. I have no doubt Ms. Pelosi
is extremely competent in steering government policy in the direction of the “empowerment of
women” and in furthering the stock left of center Democratic principals such as tax and
spend. I just don’t think that’s particularly good news.
____________________________________________________________________________________________
First of all, "tax and spend" is right wing propaganda. The debt and deficit shrank quite
considerably the last time there was a Democrat in the white house...... Only to be blown to
historically unprescedented levels under "the current occupant", which has in addition to
laying a huge debt (and future heavy taxation to eventually pay for it) on the US, has
devalued the US dollar, making things incrementally more difficult for those of us who wish
to live abroad. Ask Darkseid about that....he was happily living in pussy heaven off the
interest on his 401K.....until said interest began to only buy half as many Brazilian
reals.......boy that was a real plus for those of us prone to vote with our feet and not
accept AW crap.
On one hand you are saying that you are not calling her incompentent. On the other, you are
saying that she lacks the ability to deal with something that will be an integral part of
her new position. Would you care to produce a definition of "incompetent" that isn't more
or less ""unable to perform an integral part of a given function"?
Perhaps you believe that she lacks the INCLINATION to effectively handle the nation's
problems.....I'm sure that she will throw away her parties "golden ticket" to (possibly multi-generational as the right wing has blown it so badly) power so that
she can make ramrodding through some bullshit feminist legislation her top priority.
The question is, why do you think she is? You argue that getting elected is an indicator of
competence. If one were to accept that premise (I don’t), it would of course apply equally
to (for example) George Bush. Your anger doesn’t give you the right to dictate exceptions.
____________________________________________________________________________________________
My anger has nothing to do with it. Two elections for reasons cited failed to prevent a highly incompetent and corrupt administration (I don't think it's necessary to produce the laundry list) from taking and retaining power. That failure clearly indicates that exceptions do exist to my generalization that elections are usually a pretty good tool for picking politicians.
You ought to take a look at Ms. Pelosi’s district. San Francisco isn’t exactly mainstream
America. It is a good place to be a radical feminista if you want to win elections. To
become Speaker of the House she only needs the support of the most partisan half of the
Democratic representatives to Congress. A thoroughly insular position.
____________________________________________________________________________________________
I characterized the democratic party, a large group of people from (by definition) from widely ranging backgrounds, regional cultures and geographic areas as being very different from each other.
You seem to be characterizing that group as binarily homogenous.
Which one of those characterizations would you say is more accurate. As an illustration, lets do basically the same thing to the Republican party and say that it is composed entirely of wealthy corporate executives and bible freaks. Would you call that an accurate characterization?
Sorry, the question remains. You’re the one cheerleading for her. What makes you think she’s
qualified to weald this kind of power wisely?
____________________________________________________________________________________________
I'm cheerleading her because she, in conjunction with several other individuals put the democratic party into a position to force accountability and control onto the bush administration and their disastrous policies (again, don't think we need the laundry list), which has previously had free reign which has been mostly used to transfer the wealth of the US treasury and American people into the hands of their friends and benefactors, much to our, and the rest of the world's (except that they can shop cheaply here now) detriment.
In response to your final question, I have to again ask why (aside from being female, feminist, and liberal) do you assume that she isn't competent? In truth, all suspicions aside, I don't KNOW that she is, although she MAY be. Conversely, I do definatively KNOW that the bush administration ISN'T. At the very least, doesn't it make it make sense to replace KNOWN malignancy with possible benevolance?
B9k
Wow, how the hell did you manage to post such an unreadable mess? Clean it up, then I'll look at it.
Would be a rationalization.
My comments are seperated from yours by a line, and there is space between each "set"
B9k
Deal with the spacing, wrap around lines and white space. Try a text editor.
You don't like that it's double spaced?
Sorry, man, I'm not a secretary.
I'll give you a clue about reading it:
Go from left to right. When you come to the end of the line, move south to the next one. Repeat the process. until you run into "B9k" at the end.
I believe it's appearent that you don't have a valid counterargument (and do credit your intelligence and education that you don't engage in a very typical tactic of throwing up a "bunch of words" and stonewalling that they are valid and relevant), and are using my failure to live up to your standards of visual aesthetics as an "out" (more frequently used but in the same vein are tactics such as criticizing spelling and grammar, and making claims like "It isn't worth my time to debate someone who can't spell 'Seattle'". If that's what you want to do, that's fine. I won't engage in mockery, taunting, or anything of that nature.
B9k
This is what your post looks like. It's bad enough trying to clean up your sloppy thinking, I don't have to deal with your sloppy presentation. I'm not your keyboarding teacher.
Show respect for your readers or go somewhere else.
Here I try to be reasonably civilized, and you come back acting like an ass.
You aren't fooling anybody. You can't argue with me, so you turn into the formatting Nazi.
That's a really effective debating tactic (I call it the "pathetic smokescreen") you have there. Next stop for you LAW SCHOOL. Maybe YOU should run for congress You could stand around and criticize the wardrobes of people who are actually able to think with logic and reason, as they deliberate about potential changes to the law. Maybe even their grammar too.
B9k
You guys don't get it.
This guy in Iran is serious about wiping out Israel and neutering the US. He is living in the 7th century.
Europe has turned into a continent full of poodles and are afraid to confront radical Islam, except for surprisingly the Dutch. However one in three dutchmen ( native) wants to leave Europe. Europe did it to themselves. The Us needs to get its bases out of europe anyway, let them fend for themselves. Bow- wow.
Bickering about Pelosi, Bush, the 2000 elections etcc. is not imporatnt now.
Question should be what to do about Iran? It is really the US and Israel whom can stop iran. Blair surrendered yesterday. I guess it is up to the Isreali's to take out the nuke plants in Iran, since I am not sure Dumbo has the stomach to do anything, nor am I sure about the american people. We are bogged down in Iraq. Iraq is what it is. maybe parecel it into three zones, anyway it is a mess.
Did get a chuckle at one of the Poodle's indicting Rumsfeld today. They are really something else. Europe yearns to bask in the sun as the world leader again. Fat chance
MJG Dogs:
Some of us get it. You're absolutely right. But, there's a whole bunch of people in the US who've convinced themselves that Bush is the greatest threat to mankind since Attila, and more dangerous than anyone in Iran, or Pakistan or anywhere else put together. They can't see anything else while they're wrapped up in their tight, self-reinforced little paranoid cocoons. I just got sucked into wasting time debating trivialities with one of them.
bart:
Somehow you manage to produce readable copy when you want to. Could it be you make a mess when you know what you've got to say is more nonsense than usual. Clean it up and we can all find out.
Rationalize, and run away. Bluster and grandstand. You hit every tactic in the loudmouth idiots playbook. I've seen plenty like you around. None can put together a rational argument and defend it with facts and reason.
What are you going to do if I "clean up" my copy? I know that you don't have a leg to stand on. Will you then complain that you are being blinded by the light blue borders, and therefore can't respond.
B9k
Hard to believe that anyone has a single good thing to say about Bush, the single greatest American disaster in recent history. Recovering from him will take a decade... if things go well.
Iran a threat? Damn right! And even more so since the Bush era began, sapping our economy, military, international support and morale of needed strength with his misguided, childish war of terrir'.
I am as hawkish as they come when it comes to defending America's borders BEYOND our borders.. especially in this age of terrorism... but for God's sake, let's be clever about it and not clumsy and oafish as we have been under Bush.
Even the neocons are against Bush. Perle, one of the architects behind iraq, said Bush ruined the war with incompetence and corruption.
I'm beginning to understand the Neocons. Even if you think its in our benefit to have oil wars, Bush ruined it.
"Nancy Pelosi is incompetent?"
Is that what you think this election was about? Nancy Pelosi?
Whether you are democrat, republican, or independant, doesn't matter.
This election was about creating oversight over president who is
out-of-control, immature, sociopath leading us into totalitarianism
and I am simple amazed the election wasn't (more) stolen.
[QUOTE=Doctor_Skank]Hard to believe that anyone has a single good thing to say about Bush, the single greatest American disaster in recent history. Recovering from him will take a decade... if things go well.[/QUOTE]
Things won't go that well. The worst thing Bush did was not 5 trillion dollars debt, or ruinous war, or recruit a billiion sympathizer for the terrorists, or torture.
The worst thing bush did was to create a Culture of Dictatorship in the US government. USA's greatest gift was a government culture that encouraged cooperation, friendship and discussion.
Bush/Cheney/Rummy/Rove ruined the governmental culture, moved us towards fascism and a Culture of Dictatorship.
[QUOTE=Bart9000]Rationalize, and run away. Bluster and grandstand. You hit every tactic in the loudmouth idiots playbook. I've seen plenty like you around. None can put together a rational argument and defend it with facts and reason.[/QUOTE]
Everything you say here applies equally to you, I've just been trying to avoid all the name calling. Childish.
[QUOTE=Bart9000]What are you going to do if I "clean up" my copy?
B9k[/QUOTE]
Read it.
I forgot one from the loudmouth idiot playbook. "Oh no, I'm not those things, YOU ARE"!!!!! Someone, sometime told you morons that the best way to get over on an accusation is to accuse your accuser of actually engaging in it themselves....or publicly decry exactly what it is that you do....for example "The No-Spin Zone", where nothing but spinning takes place.
Basically it's the "grown up" equivalent of "I know you are but what am I".
Like I said. You want to read my stuff? Go from left to right, and when you get to the end of a line go down one and repeat the process. I'm not going to bother "making it pretty" because I know that this is just a bullshit pretense to keep from admitting that you don't have a rational argument to counter mine. You can spit venom and call me names all day long, but that doesn't change the situation.
B9k
"I'm childinsh?" I rest my case.
........a question mark on the end of that statement. This would make it a question, not a statement. No wonder you don't seem to be able to read my material, as you appear not to have good command of the basics.
Keep it up. Every bit of venom that you spit out reads to me as "I'm trying to cover up the fact that I can't defend my positions with a valid argument."
B9k
You really are totally clueless aren't you? That explains a lot. I give up. What's "childinsh"?
It's a fucking typo. What's "weald"? Did I throw a fucking hissy over your inability to spell "wield"? Why not....because I'm not looking for pissy little bullshit to complain about so that I can put off showing that I can't generate a valid counterargument.
You conversely complain about typo's, formatting, bile, venom.....everything BUT a relevant valid response.
So tell me, do you actually lie to yourself that this is the reason you can't come up with a valid response to my points, or is it only to other people?
B9k
It’s clearly necessary to explain to you what is obvious to anyone else, so let me help you out here. When you try to demonstrate you’re not childish, and misspell the word while doing it, that’s pretty damned funny. Even you have to admit that’s a childlike mistake - though I doubt you’re capable of that much introspection.
When the error is pointed out to you, and you respond with another little hissy fit (I like that one) that demonstrates you are completely oblivious, both to the mistake and the irony of your cluelessness, that’s off the charts hilarious.
But when you say to the guy who found your spelling error, the mistake you still haven’t picked up on,“you appear not to have good command of the basics”, well that’s just fucking priceless.
I told you before about being sloppy. Adding clown to the resume doesn’t help. If you’re going to continue with the insults and the personal attacks, you really need to clean up your act.
I sure hope I can keep you going. You are an endless source of amusement.
Oh yeah - weald is a homonym. Sometimes they creep in.
....to anyone reading this that this individual is making a grandstanding pretense about offending his typographical and formatting sensibilities so as to avoid demonstrating that he lacks the ability to generate a logical valid counterargument to mine below?
I made a logical case that we in the United States had been headed towards (possibly theocratic) facism with "dissidents" disappearing into the night, and possibly closed borders. His only response was to call me "paranoid", which is an ad hominem attack, a classic logical fallacy, basically attacking the arguer instead of the argument......he then "made his (kneejerk, reactionary) case" based on having successfully refuted my assertions
I believe that if he had a logical counterargument, we would not be quibbling about my keystroke error in slipping an "n" into "childish" if he had anywhere else to go in the argument. Instead of being a man and admitting that his positions were in error, we get the grammar and formatting nazi.
B9k
Some of your don't get it.
You Complain about International goodwill and torture.
You Complain about facism and "The Culture of Dictatorship"
You all have the right to dissent. I agree that Bush totally fucked up in Iraq, as regard to strategy, and by announcing to Iraq, when we were coming. Where there WMD? maybe, if so where are they ? Syria, Iran maybe. Why telegraph your intentions and then have no after strategy and no timetable for reconstruction etc.... NEXT
International Goodwill: Vastly Over-Rated. The Europeans have always tried to undermine any American President whom protects Americans first. They still have a perception that we are still a colony of thiers. The Europeans meddling in our 2004 elections, stank of arrogance and pettiness. Who in the fuck are they to dictate to the american electorate. Besides look at the French, prostitutes whom will sell anything to anyone. The Spainish, who sold Hugo Chavez, Chemical and Biological agents ( documented), and that prepetual Rats Nest the EU. Europe has never been a true alley of the USA, only when it suits them. Remember the left in europe claimed that Reagan was going to blow up the World etc... Now look at Europe a dying continent being over run by Islamo-Ding-A-Ling.
Torture- Oh my God someone put a dog collar on a prisoner, put a hood on a prisoner,and piled some naked guys into a pile, Ok stupid yes, but torture???
Should the soldiers been punished for this-Yes, but god some of you don't get it- the prisoners at club-gitmo eat better than anyone in any US prison. I see a lot of portly Muslims in the pictures.
Are you people out of your minds. Torture- Nazi Germany, Stalin's Russia, Pol-Pot, and you equate Abu-Grab and Gitmo with torture? jesus if that is the case you are turing European in this country. Might as well blare the Village people over the loudspeakers in every major city. Is the under-belly of this country now that soft?
Dictatorship- I guess that means domestic wiretapping and the Patriot act.Hmmm one of the greatest icon in Democratic party history, spied on thousands of americans, and intured a whole race of americans in prsion camps during World War 2. Roosevelt suspended more rights than Bush ever imagened too. Dictatorship means no more free elctions, it looks like tha American public voted for a change in dictatorship USA last 10 days ago.
If you guys want to become another Europe, then we have major major problems. Sorry bart, why you have some valid points, you fear about having a Closed Border, Puzzles me. What is wrong with having a fence?
MJG Dogs:
There is no such things as "best friends" in world politics, every country is ultimately there to protect its own interests, which is exactly what a country's leadership should do.... protect and represent the interests of the country... not just protecting the interests of the actual leadership running it.
My beef if with the current administration, whose pursuit of their own self-interests is undermining the good of the country to a degree I haven't personally experienced with the last presidents... and I have been following politics actively since Carter.
And don't give me the standard republican "Clinton this Clinton that". Like him or not, he was a good president and improved America's position in the world and the situation for our citizens. We gave him the ball and he didn't fumble. Same with Reagan. I hated him then, but in retrospect he was a good president, despite his inability to speak coherently. Bush is far worse... and has been coughing the ball up right and left.
France, Germany, England, Spain, Italy, Russia whomever are never going to see eye to eye with us on everything, but completely alienating and directly insulting them in a meaningless grandstanding fashion is just [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140][CodeWord140][/url] poor politics.
I suppose that's my biggest problem with Bushco in general... they are just [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140][CodeWord140][/url] poor politicians and make us look like fools. International goodwill IS necessary... without it, achieving our goals is much more difficult.
Iraq? We are there now, so worrying about why we got there in the first place is increasingly irrelevant... the spilled milk scenario. We need a better mop.
Torture? The whole Abu Ghraib thing is less significant than most make it out to be... it definitely isn't as much of an issue as the wasteful Guantanamo complex, where prisoners have gained an average of something like 35 pounds each because all they do is eat all day. For many, it must be like heaven without the virgins. A waste of money. Any intelligence we could have gotten out of those guys is no longer valid, al Queda structures have since changed and adapted.
I am actually not referring to having a closed border in the sense that you are thinking of.....keeping non-citizens out.
I'm actually referring to the old Soviet style closed border.....keeping citizens (trying to escape from a fascist dictatorship) IN.
This could be a realistic scenario under the trends that were taking place under the unfettered bush administration-it sounds like you saw that post.
B9k
[QUOTE=Doctor_Skank]
And don't give me the standard republican "Clinton this Clinton that". Like him or not, he was a good president and improved America's position in the world and the situation for our citizens.
[/QUOTE]
Sorry, can't agree with this. 95% of the execution of 9/11 is his responsibility. Our failure to respond effectively to numerous provocations (embassy bombings, the Cole attack) and the catastrophic drift of the intelligence structure were on his watch. We may all have been guilty of complacency, but the President's job is to lead.
How did he improve America's position in the world?
CARTER may have had something to do with the withering of the intelligence agencies effectiveness in preventing 9/11. During his presidency (if I'm not mistaken) he did away with "removing" (a sanitary word for "icing") credible threats and instead, handled such situations with kid gloves. Also, he began the over-reliance on MACHINE-gathered intelligence instead of time-tested HUMAN intelligence gathering.
Anyone more schooled in such events is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong.
[QUOTE=hardbarg]Sorry, can't agree with this. 95% of the execution of 9/11 is his responsibility. Our failure to respond effectively to numerous provocations (embassy bombings, the Cole attack) and the catastrophic drift of the intelligence structure were on his watch. We may all have been guilty of complacency, but the President's job is to lead.
How did he improve America's position in the world?[/QUOTE]
This is a preposterous assertion, and one that you can, I'm sure, not back up with facts reason and logic. Just like you failed to do in the crap that I shredded below, which you refuse to acknowledge under the ridiculous pretense of not liking my lack of formatting, and are now trying to discretely sneak away from.
By the way, "conservative logic" (I know, an oxymoron)doesn't count. "It is because I say it is.....that's what I say.....because that is what is.....because that is what I say........"
B9k
I am glad that you see the Abu-Grab situation similar to what I see it. Gitmo also.
did I mention Jesus Christ ( I mean Clinton in my post), No I did not. Clinton was one of smartest presidents , but not necessarly good. I have to agree with hardbag , pertaining to 9/11, he chose not to act after the USS Cole was hit, and did turm down Bin Laden, these are documented. Reagan whom you hated, and whom I loved, also made mistakes, like keeping The US Marines at sea level, not on high ground, in Beirut.
International Diplomacy? Its a two way street, and even after listening to the nonsense from Europe and after reading about the venom directed at american tourists since 2003, in Europe, it will be a very long time before we should mend fences with Europe. They are yearning to be in the spotlight again , they do remind me of poodles. They are smart , can be cute, but usually just shit all over the place.
Bart, How come then millions of people are flocking the the dictatorship of the uNited Sates of america? I do want to leave , not becuase of Bush, but becuase of too many damm people, and too much PC bullshit. I would rather live and take my chances in Colombia or panama. There, there is no PC bullshit, but fuck with someone there and you will be sorry. No friggin ACLU in Colombia
[QUOTE=MJG Dogs] he chose not to act after the USS Cole was hit[/QUOTE] That may be so, BUT he rained down a lot of physical brimstone on Afghanistan in the form of Cruise missiles after Tanzania (which was earlier than the Cole). IF the embassies in Pakistan and other neighboring countries weren't evacuated on a moment's notice BEFORE the retaliation for the African embassy bombings, Bin Laden's remains would have decorated the Afghan countryside. The evacuations were a HUGE (unintentional) tip-off that a LARGE foot was destined to be lodged in Afghanistan's ass. As a result, Bin Laden high-tailed it outta there faster than a crooked politician trying to avoid a "60 Minutes" van rolling up to his driveway.
[quote=mjg dogs]
bart, how come then millions of people are flocking the the dictatorship of the united sates of america? i do want to leave , not becuase of bush, but becuase of too many damm people, and too much pc bullshit. i would rather live and take my chances in colombia or panama. there, there is no pc bullshit, but fuck with someone there and you will be sorry. no friggin aclu in colombia[/quote]
i did not assert that at the present time, we are a facist dictatorship. what i did assert in a logical case 5-6 posts back was that we were trending (caps for emphasis, not yelling) in that direction (with no indication that the trend would be slowing) under the bush administration's continued acquisition of executive power.
i'm also no fan of pc bullshit. however, i understand it to some degree. i understand that my positions may appear to be contradictory (eg douchebag's attempt to label me a hypocrite over my post criticizing the behavior of women in the us), but this is simply a reflection of my understanding of the complexity of the world, and other people having perceptions that while -different-from my own, are not "wrong".
take sexual harassment for example. about 11 years ago, a little bim tried to get me fired (she got caught flirting with me, and told her husband she would get rid of me, or he would make her quit the job). i think that it is absolutely ridiculous that i had to endure a 2 hour grilling with hr, being humiliated at having my friends called in as witnesses, and was eventually completely exonerated.....although i still received punishment (hey, i thought i was found innocent) in the form of a condition that i would be fired without any question if there was even a complaint on me.
this was wrong, and a bunch of bullshit.
conversely, there are situations going on right now where women (and actually men too....it goes both ways) are in a position of possibly losing their jobs, not getting an earned promotion or raise, or maybe just literally getting chased around their desk by a supervisor.
this is also wrong and a bunch of bullshit.
the situation (and there are many other issues like this)is complex, and doesn't lend to a simplistic solution on either side. yes, men shouldn't be subject to prosecution at the drop of a woman's word......on the other hand, women should be able to go about their daily business without having to deal with for example a boss holding an earned promotion hostage over some pussy......or even excessive (in frequency and degree) attempts by those who are peers.
b9k
i am a liberal and i am a feminist, as it is very important to me that my daughters to have equal rights and opportunities in their lives. but i hate all the pc bullshit too!
don't think for a minute this is a conservative vs. liberal issue. it's certainly not.
the fact that i think tort reform is just a scam designed to allow corporations to act with impunity, or that i oppose sending my tax dollars to private schools through school vouchers, does not mean that i support political correctness.
free speech is not a liberal or conservative issue.
the problem with current sexual harassment law based on the supreme court decision is not the ban against "quid pro quo" (if you do this for me, i'll do that for you). most of us would agree that is wrong.
rather, it is the concept of the "hostile working environment."
now i can certainly understand why women would be uncomfortable if they had put up with seeing a nudie calendar at their workplace. that is a reasonable complaint.
however, the "hostile environment" clause goes so far to state that sexual harassment is not caused by the actions of the accused, but rather it is determined by how the supposed victim feels "impacted."
thus, if you do or say something that 99 people out of 100 think is fine, that 100th person can nonetheless legitimately accuse you of sexual harassment under the law.
case in point. recently my secretary agreed to call and make hotel reservations for my next trip to south america, because she is a native spanish speaker. we do each other favors all of the time, and it was no big deal to her.
during the phone call two women wandered in to our office and overhead me telling my secretary that i wanted a double bed, not a single. i also told her that i wanted the package that allows up to four people, so that i did not have to pay an extra fee if i brought any guests over.
the next day one of these buttinski's, who did not even have any business being in the room let alone eavesdropping on our conversation, proceeded to go to my supervisor and complain that i had made her feel uncomfortable and she felt sexually harrassed.
i was not even informed which one had complained about me, in order to "protect her." (i don't think that part was legal.)
but believe it or not, under the law she can correctly claim that she was sexually harassed. hell, i could do something as innocent as swat a fly, and if someone claims to be "impacted" in such a way that she feels sexually harrassed, then by definition, i'm guilty.
i was let off with a verbal warning and told that had i opened myself up to be fired if anyone else complains about me in the future.
and in sex prison, that's the law, folks!
db
That is the craziest thing I have ever heard.
You poor guy. Sounds to me like the woman who complained needs a decent shag to bring her back to reality.
[QUOTE=Bart9000]This is a preposterous assertion[/QUOTE]
So, you disagree with me. There's a shock. Just a second.
Yeah - I don't care. Actually, it makes me proud.
[QUOTE=Bart9000] trying to discretely sneak away[/QUOTE]
You just don't get it. You're not worth the effort. Once you get past the profanity, insults, personal attacks, and self-serving bs - "a little bim tried to get me fired (she got caught flirting with me...)" - all that's left is pointless blather. And you DO like to hear yourself talk.
Guys like Dodger are willing to go to the trouble of pointing out and correcting your sloppy thinking. I don't have to.
[QUOTE=Sinanju Master]CARTER may have had something to do with the withering of the intelligence agencies effectiveness in preventing 9/11.
Anyone more schooled in such events is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong.[/QUOTE]I don't know if I'm "more schooled" in these events - one thing I think is interesting about Carter is the "Carter Doctine" which basically was the first time the US stated in had vital interests in the Persian Gulf and would use military force if those interests were assaulted.
I remember reading an article during the Gulf War in the Wall Street Journal about relationship between the Carter Doctrine and it's impact on the US ability to project force in the Persian Gulf. Basically, the Russian invasion of Afghanistan kicked off an effort toward projecting American force into the Gulf. The first time that ability was tested was when Iraq invaded Kuwait.
So, I guess I see a bit of irony in Carter scoring a peace prize since I think basically there is not a lot of difference between Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton or Bush when it comes to US interests in the Persian Gulf.
[QUOTE=hardbarg]So, you disagree with me. There's a shock. Just a second.
Yeah - I don't care. Actually, it makes me proud.
You just don't get it. You're not worth the effort. Once you get past the profanity, insults, personal attacks, and self-serving bs - "a little bim tried to get me fired (she got caught flirting with me...)" - all that's left is pointless blather. And you DO like to hear yourself talk.
Guys like Dodger are willing to go to the trouble of pointing out and correcting your sloppy thinking. I don't have to.[/QUOTE]
I want to hear one of three things out of you. Anything else that you post has exactly as much validity as pounding on the keyboard:
oijtpoihpiouh26q26w4625jn25wpokpjop2j5k2k5k54ypok2pokypok
1. A relevant valid response to my points below. You can spew logical fallacies, things you "know" (but can't intellectually justify----those are called "feelings", and they matter for nothing), and insults all day long...they prove noting but your idiocy.
2. You not acting like a fucking pussy, manning up, finding some testicles, and admitting you are wrong.
3. Shut the fuck up and go back to giving Rush Limbaugh a rimjob.
So which one is it going to be?
B9k
[QUOTE=Jelly Donut]I don't know if I'm "more schooled" in these events - one thing I think is interesting about Carter is the "Carter Doctine" which basically was the first time the US stated in had vital interests in the Persian Gulf and would use military force if those interests were assaulted.
I remember reading an article during the Gulf War in the Wall Street Journal about relationship between the Carter Doctrine and it's impact on the US ability to project force in the Persian Gulf. Basically, the Russian invasion of Afghanistan kicked off an effort toward projecting American force into the Gulf. The first time that ability was tested was when Iraq invaded Kuwait.
So, I guess I see a bit of irony in Carter scoring a peace prize since I think basically there is not a lot of difference between Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton or Bush when it comes to US interests in the Persian Gulf.[/QUOTE]
Let's not forget that Carter was responsible for funding and arming the Mujahideen against the Soviets. Some say that support started earlier, and actually caused (provoked) the Soviet invasion. Reagan continued the policy. The Mujahideen, of course, morphed into the Taliban, and somewhat less directly, into Al Qaeda. A classic case of blowback.
The sad fact is that we have been blundering around this part of the world, Republican and Democrat, pretty much whenever we get involved. We better start learning how to be effective.
Bart9000
Don't waste your breathe on these Ditto-Heads. They are too stupid to realize their news sources are being manipulated.
Digitalcurry
[QUOTE=hardbarg]Let's not forget that Carter was responsible for funding and arming the Mujahideen against the Soviets. Some say that support started earlier, and actually caused (provoked) the Soviet invasion. Reagan continued the policy. The Mujahideen, of course, morphed into the Taliban, and somewhat less directly, into Al Qaeda. A classic case of blowback.
[/QUOTE]
I've often wondered what the result would have been if we DIDN'T fund the Mujahadeen and just stayed out. I feel that one scenario is that the Soviets would have had their hand buried inside a hornets nest while we sat back and watched the result with amused interest. Bin Laden may now have been solely THEIR problem (in Afghanistan AND possibly Chechnya) instead of ours.
[QUOTE=Sinanju Master]I've often wondered what the result would have been if we DIDN'T fund the Mujahadeen and just stayed out. I feel that one scenario is that the Soviets would have had their hand buried inside a hornets nest while we sat back and watched the result with amused interest. Bin Laden may now have been solely THEIR problem (in Afghanistan AND possibly Chechnya) instead of ours.[/QUOTE]
American adventurism has always resulted in awful unintended consequences.
[QUOTE=Digital Curry]Bart9000
Don't waste your breathe on these Ditto-Heads. They are too stupid to realize their news sources are being manipulated.
Digitalcurry[/QUOTE]
I know that it is an exercise in futility, but I feel a certain obligation to try drag these mouth breathing, ass backwards REGRESSIVE (lets stop using the euphemism "conservative" and call it for what it is) dipshits into at least the twentieth century. Besides, it's kind of fun demonstrating to the world how these schmuck can't think logically, and that their worldview is based in "feelings" (They refer to them as things that they KNOW, or "common sense") and kneejerk reactionalism.
Obviously, I'm going to have to educate this fucktard:
__________________________________________________________________
Lesson #1
Hey Douchebag,
Do you or do you not understand that you saying something does not make it a factual statement? For example, you have stated several times that I have "sloppy thinking". In what way is my thinking sloppy? Does you saying that I do make it a factual truth? If no further standard is applied than for something to be uttered from the lips, then I will make a statement that you like to give tongue baths to Bangladeshi pre-pubescent boys after they finish their soccer games. THERE!!!! See, I said it, so it's a factual truthful statement. That is exactly the standard that you want to be held to. So.........sweaty little Bangladeshi boys it is.
___________________________________________________________________'
Just watch too......I bet he is getting ready to start crying about (due to my usage of profanity) the "assault on traditional American Values" and "war on our culture" ...................on the fucking ISG....Generally speaking, I just LOOOVE that one.....These fucking pricks brag all day long about the Constitution and all of the freedom that the Bill of Rights guarantees............until someone says something they don't like.....then it's time to find a pretense to shut them up.
B9k
[QUOTE=Bart9000]I want to hear one of three things out of you. Anything else that you post has exactly as much validity as pounding on the keyboard:
oijtpoihpiouh26q26w4625jn25wpokpjop2j5k2k5k54ypok2pokypok
1. A relevant valid response to my points below. You can spew logical fallacies, things you "know" (but can't intellectually justify----those are called "feelings", and they matter for nothing), and insults all day long...they prove noting but your idiocy.
2. You not acting like a fucking pussy, manning up, finding some testicles, and admitting you are wrong.
3. Shut the fuck up and go back to giving Rush Limbaugh a rimjob.
So which one is it going to be?
B9k[/QUOTE]
Please tell me that you're going to hold your breath and stamp your feet until you get your way.
[QUOTE=hardbarg]Please tell me that you're going to hold your breath and stamp your feet until you get your way.[/QUOTE]
And what we have here is yet even another Ad Hominem logical fallacy, attacking me with a charge of implied childishness in leiu of anything even remotely resembling a substantive valid response. You don't seem to be able to do anything except generate these. Perhaps you should study up a bit, and improve your repertoir (sp?) of ignorance...maybe you could move up to say another right wing favorite the "straw man":
From wikipedia
In Logic
"An ad hominem fallacy consists of asserting that someone's argument is wrong and/or he is wrong to argue at all purely because of something discreditable/not-authoritative about the person or those persons cited by him rather than addressing the soundness of the argument itself (Are you paying attention douchebag?). The implication is that the person's argument and/or ability to argue correctly lacks authority. ............"
Hmmmm....Know what else I don't see here? A FACTUAL justification that I have "sloppy thinking". Am I to assume then that by the rules you play by, again, one only need utter an assertion to have it be fact, without any support in reality? That being the case, having previously uttered said assertion, I must chastize you for your molestation under the pretense of hygeine of prepubescent third world boy's soccer teams. That type of behavior really is reprehensible and despicable. I understand that it is the "in" thing among the regressives in the GOP this year, but c'mon. I thought you people believed in "traditional values"....why don't you just let those "boys be boys".
B9k
Please tell me that you're going to hold your breath and stamp your feet until you get your way.
[QUOTE=hardbarg]Please tell me that you're going to hold your breath and stamp your feet until you get your way.[/QUOTE]
And here we have documentation that you lack to lack the brainpower to even create a DIFFERENT batch of invalid meaningless crap, and are instead repeating yourself. You really are pathetic. At least next time, pound on the keyboard:
pkjiopjpiojpoijpojpojt43k1popokipok'lk'lkpijpiojp[oj43pojpogpokjpokjgpko0puj3tpoi5poi
Doing so would have exactly the same amount of validity and meaning, but would at least be something different to look at.
Well, I've pretty much definitively proven that you have the reasoning and analytical skills of your average gelatinous dessert. We REALLY need to hear more from people like you about how the world should be run.
But fear not-all isn't lost. Later, if I'm feeling motivated, I will continue to educate you in the mysterious ways of logic and reason. Be warned however if you master them you will have to change your political ideology.
B9k
You just don't get it. You're not worth the effort.
.....pathetic rationalization!!!!!!!!
The substitution of a rational pretext for a real reason, with an implication of self-delusion or hypocrisy; the improvisation of a plausible reason for a human action when one either does not realize the real reason or seeks to keep it secret; the use of a false but reasonable justification or interpretation of an attitude or action, which appears to be unsatisfactory or contrary to accepted reasoning, when one is either ashamed or not aware of his actual motive. HA. 78-79; TH. 280-82.
[url]www.mises.org/easier/R.asp[/url]
Lets have Lesson 2: (Subtitled-"How not to be an irrational ignorant moron")
A "sound argument" generally consists of two things. A conclusion, and factual, valid supporting evidence (I may be using incorrect terminology)
When an argument is put forth, and is sound, it is presumed to be the winner, unless the other side can do one of two things:
1: Prove that the supporting evidence is not factual.
2. Prove that the supporting evidence which MAY in fact BE factual, does not suport the conclusion that is drawn from it as the premise of the argument. .
These are the ONLY things that "knock down" a "sound" argument, and making it "unsound", thus making the holder of the opposing position the winner of the debate.
Included in the list of things that DO NOT make an opposing argument "unsound" are some of the following:
Logical Fallacies (Ad Hominem and others)
Insults-"You are childish" "You are a sloppy thinker"
Rationalizations, such as "You just aren't worth it", "I'm not even going to read that because the formatting is terrible"
Reiterating, until you come up with a way to either prove that my supporting points are non-factual, or do not support my conclusion, you LOSE the argument. End of story. You can protest, rationalize deny and insult all day long, but that is all just basically pointless meaningless "noise".
Later, we'll deconstruct your last pathetic attempt to do this.
B9k
It's bad enough trying to clean up your sloppy thinking, I don't have to deal with your sloppy presentation.
[QUOTE=hardbarg]It's bad enough trying to clean up your sloppy thinking, I don't have to deal with your sloppy presentation.[/QUOTE]
And here we have the dual rationalization/insult........still just "noise" of course, which means nothing but...........
Do you really think anyone believes that you have some brilliant counter-argument sandbagged, but refuse to present it on the grounds that you find my "sloppy thinking" (which I posit is actually inasmuch as that phrase has meaning at all that, that YOU who are engaging in it as YOU are the one who can't use logic and reason), and sloppy formatting objectionable.
Do you know why you can't argue with me? Because your ideology is based not in reason and rational thought, but instead in ignorance, "feelings", and "common sense" (self serving, comforting, drivel).
So, at this time, I will repeat MYSELF. The world REALLY needs the input from people like you (see above) about the way that it should be run, and you should shut the fuck up and go back to giving Rush Limbaugh a rimjob.
B9k
You just don't get it. You're not worth the effort.
Want to know the difference between me and you?
You say that I'm not worth the effort.
I've PROVEN that you aren't.
B9k
Maybe this thread is a waste of time. My god what are my choices.??
The Cake and Croissant Democrats-
Raise taxes on everyone- They lie when they say they want tax cuts for the Middle class- To the Dems , anyone making over $ 10K USD per year is Upper Class.
Appeasement and taking marching orders from The UN and The goddam EU
Why would any American want to listen to these two organizations. The UN needs to get out, the american people need to throw them out of here. And the goddam Europeans, who still do not get it. They are toothless, and cannot resolve political conflict. We then fall into their trap, for fighting for them, eg: The Balkans-The euros wanted to protect the muslims against the Serbs, who were smart enough to see that the Kosivars were terriorists and wanted to kill them. Whom did we bomb- The Serbs, WRONG CHOICE. Yet the Dems drool over these two worhless organizations.
Gitmo and rights for terriorist- WTF? Do you clowns on the left think that Iran, Al-Queda etc.. give any captured combatants any rights? No, usually they hold them for ransom, or cut their throtas like sheep in the slaughterhouse.
Wire tapping- So What..... Why not I it can stop an attack.
Now for the Republicans and the Christians........
Abortion- Do the christains want to adopt all of these kids that are unwanted? ya, I am pro-choice, but hate the late term shit, but who am I to say what is moral? And who is the congress? Roe vs Wade is law, leave it alone.
Tax breaks for churches- make them pay, instead of pandering to them, tax Jesus also- for in America- Jesus is a corporation, preaches make money, they are not passing the hat at church for your salvation, but for Brother Leon's new cadillac, or Pastor Fred's now Explorer.
Illegal Immigration- The republicans are MUCH WORSE than the democrats on this, except for Tancredo and a few others, who understand the real issue. The rest of the republican turn a blind eye for they are in bed with the corporations that hire these illegals, thus depressing wages and causing the taxpayers to pay for medical, welfare, Social security etc.. for them. At least with the Dems you know what their aganda is as far as illegals.
Corruption- Too many reoublicans getting caught with their hands in the cookie jar, at least the DEMS are smarter in covering their tracks, except for Jefferson from Louisiana, for which nothing will happen, for you see in America black politicians can do as they please, without punishment in most cases, because the media protects them and whites are afraid of being called racists. But the Abranoff scandal really taints the republicans.
Internet gambling ban and tightening of restrictions on foreign marraiage agencies- Government needs to stay out of this- This again was led by the far right, the Chrisitans were behind the tightening on the marraige agenices, for you see the christain right wants us to marry the goddam fat overweight white woman that goes to church, and gets angrey when we marry the much younger colombiana or girl from Asia.
Also get Politicians from all walks of life in there. We may get fresher ideas and get the stench of Lawyers out of there
sfb9000:
you DO like to hear yourself talk.
.....I have definitively shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no reason, ration, or logic in the things that you "think".
.....I have caused the probably 3-400 people who read this thread to envision you (most probably the stereotypical "ugly monger"- mid fiftyish, smuggling a basketball under a ratty T-shirt, pathetically deluded that the girl "really loves the way I give it to her"), both giving Rush Limbaugh a rimjob, as well as a pre-pubescent third world boy's soccer team a post game tonguebath.
I'm declaring myself to be the unqualified victor. Don't get the idea that I'm bragging, as giving you "a thumpin" wasn't much of a challenge.
So go right ahead and make all the glib little comments that you want (you may actually be dumb enough to believe that they are in effect more than the often mentioned random pounding on the keyboard)...........
But do be completely assured that you have been pimp slapped, ***** slapped, taken to the woodshed, and sent to bed with no dinner.
B9k
Jesus Christ Bart- stop the comments about third world boy's soccer teams. That is way over the line. Actually if you want my opinion, you come accross as
a egotistical fool who does not have enough smarts to know when he has gone over the line. realistically I don't give a shit if you gave hardbag a thumping, nor do the other 3,000 + others whom read this thread. Nobody gives a fuck. Okay????? Bill Clinton wouldn't give a fuck either,
I'm sure that this is going to be lost on you, but I was MAKING a POINT with my gross and depraved comments about third world boy's soccer teams. Your brother in stupidity, douchebag doesn't understand that one needs to do more than MAKE a statement about someting in order for it to be a factual truth.
I was going to let someone else straighten you out in the interest of not being involved in a flame war, but now that you bring it up, YOU are a fucking moron, too.
The UN-Yea, multi-lateral decision making is a REAL bad idea (you get the sarcasm right?). Let's see here-WE think invading IRAQ is a good idea. France and Germany don't. Hmmmm maybe we should listen to someone who has a different perspective for example before we start a war FOR NO FUCKING REASON, that is probably going to end up killing well over one million INNOCENT citizens of Iraq, not to mention our casualties, including the what (I can't remember the exact number) huge number of maimed and mangled solldiers......or the national debt......you understand that WE get to pay that right....and here you are crying about taxes. I can't definitively verify this to be true, but I'm inclined to believe it-each American taxpayer's share of the Iraq war is currently just a hair nder $30,000.
The EU -is slowly, methodically wiping out poverty in Eastern Europe through free trade and mobility of labor..........basically slowly turning "Prague into Paris". Fuck, I could even see them in 20-30 years starting to expand into the North African countries to continue the process there.
And I don't even know where to start with your assertions that we should have HELPED the Serbs commit ethnic genocide against Muslims. Prejudiced bigoted fuck just for starters. You do understand that people who aren't like you are also human beings right?
Your logic: Some Muslims are terrorists. So we should destroy all Muslims (by supporting an ethnic cleansing).
Well here is the problem with that. SOME AMERICANS are terrorists. Does the name Tim McVeigh ring any bells? How about Ted Kazinski? Didn't the individual mailing anthrax turn out to be a local boy too? By your logic, since SOME Americans are terrorists, it would be OK for someone to wipe us out.
Guantanamo-given that you seem to think that ethnic genocide is a good idea, you probably don't have a problem with the concept of a potentially innocent men rotting their lives away in a jail cell for the duration of a theoretically indefinite war. Well I do. The Bush administration says these are "bad people" (and I'm not saying that some of them aren't). Well we've all seen their track record on being correct.
Wire Tapping-See my comments about trending towards fascism
B9k
I'm gonna wear a white and black striped jersey. Guys this flame war is a waste of time and it can be draining on the combatants. Several years ago, I was in a flame war with another poster over what I thought was his misguided thinking. After thinking about his comments that led to the war, and doing a little introspection, I actually came to the conclusion he was right and I was wrong. Looking back on the war, it unnecessarily took a lot of my time that could have been better spent doing other things. Thinking about how to "return fire" in order to lay waste to your opponent is a waste of time. Also, it's not productive regarding the purpose of the title of the board. I'm not telling you not to fight ('cos I know you'll continue without my intervention, anyway) but do you really want to plot all day, thinking about a witty, slicing remark that will "put my enemy in his place"? I'm probably the LAST guy who should be saying this for fear of appearing to be on a high horse, but let's get back to intelligent discourse. <blowing whistle to resume play>
Yea man I hear you. BELIEVE ME I have better things to do than rip up morons all day and night(and there are an infinite number of them). You will notice that I originally ignored the incredibly ignorant post of this MJ whatever fucktard .....and actually my "declaration of victory" below was a big final smack before I started to ignore douchebag's brilliant "retorts"......de facto "I know you are but what am I", which could go on to infinity.
On the other hand, I am a little touchy about the assault that goes on against ration, reason and logic, having seen in the last five plus years the damage that can be done by that type of thinking (dubya "just knew" Iraq had WMD, millions of evangelicals or whatever KNOW that they are the "chosen people" and the only ones going to heaven, and that everyone who believes anyting else needs to be "corrected".....at the expense of their freedom and civil rights). Now I do realize I can lash out and explain logical arguments against room temperature IQ's like these two all day long to no effect (and it really doesn't matter, because most likely they aren't in a position to affect the world at large). But then they aren't the only ones reading.............Now fortunately, most of the actual POWER moving engaged in the direction has been neutralized (ironically the premise of the original post that started this little war)..........but the defense of liberty requires eternal vigilance.....even on the internet
B9k
Gentlemen,
I had been through most of the wars in Africa, Asia and the Balcans.
I started out in Angola and Mozambique, than my government had the brilliant idea to send me to the collapsing Vietnam. Cambodia was next before I ended in the Iraq/Iran war. This war was fun. On the Iraqi side you had been sitting behind the mine-fields watching the the Iranian boys getting their limps blown away with their green plastic key of paradies around their neck. It was really fun shooting with a GIMPY on some of the kids. Later it was some African countries and then Bosnia. It was nice killing other people just because the had been in front of your machine-gun. - DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THIS?????
In my opinion every politician who orders soldiers to the front should go first and take the first bullet. I guarantee - there will be no war in the world anymore.
Mr. Bush was defending FREEDOM of the FREE WORD in Texas during the Vietnam war. I was missing him when Saigon fell to the communists. Where was he???
Please - every poitician who is advocating war should simply come with me to see it first-hand.
But I really think that they are only interested in the amount they have on their bank-account. Right Mr. Cheney?
Carlos Primeros
deposed king of Portugal and tired of all wars in the world!
if Dubya was interested in FREEING the citizenry of country X, then why didn't he free the citizens of NORTH KOREA? Their citizens are suffering (oppression, starvation, etc) under Kim Jong Il (and before HIM, Kim Il Sung) AND they are a nuclear threat! Hmm... lemme see, I guess he chose to pick on Iraq INSTEAD of North Korea because North Korea has a very sizeable army (the fourth largest on earth), nuclear weapons, China as an ally (1.3 BILLION people), and no oil. That's MY take on why Dubya and his administration are fraudulent. Not to mention that he should never have been Prez in the FIRST PLACE. His supporters would rather have a fog-minded simpleton who's God-fearing than someone who is capable and doesn't kowtow to the "Christian Mafia".
sfb9000:
you DO like to hear yourself talk.
[QUOTE=Sinanju Master]Guys this flame war is a waste of time and it can be draining on the combatants. Several years ago, I was in a flame war with another poster over what I thought was his misguided thinking. After thinking about his comments that led to the war, and doing a little introspection, I actually came to the conclusion he was right and I was wrong. Looking back on the war, it unnecessarily took a lot of my time that could have been better spent doing other things. Thinking about how to "return fire" in order to lay waste to your opponent is a waste of time. Also, it's not productive regarding the purpose of the title of the board. [/QUOTE]
Very intelligent post. I just wonder what took you so long. I wish you had engaged in that type of thinking when you tried to bait me into a flame war with you 2 months ago.
well now- we can all now change course and talk about what the US Government is going to do over the tensions brewing between Israel and the French. The french "so-called" peacekeepers are now threatening to shoot down IDF recon pilots, whom are trying to find where hezbollah has rearmed. If the US government were smart, they would let Israel deal with the French. I think the French would get off one shot and that would be it, Israel's IDF will massacre the French. Then what would we get. We would get more of the Anti-Semetic venom spewing from the European Union, more blustering etc... and then the Anti-American venom would come out of the sewers of Brussels etc... For these days Europe not only scapegoats their problems towards the Jews ( my my some things never change), but also blame the Americans. The American public needs to realize that Europe is not, nor has not been our allies,e xcept the british, since the of the second war, and this is regardless of whom is the President. The smug bastards liked Clinton because they talked Clinton into doing their dirty work in the Balkans, but always criticized Clinton about other trade issues etc... Granted the venom was not like it is now, but it was still there during Clinton's tenure. These Europeans I think yearn for a day when the American public will follow what Brussels dictates. No american government, nor will the american public ever tolerate the restrictions of Kyoto, or tolerate a German or European court having to ability to grab Americans for trial in Brussels, or tolerate Eu/World consumption taxes and some of the looney shit that the Euro's want to attempt to impose on us
I must say these europeans are something else, their arrogance is beyond belief.
Bush and Rice should do the right thing here and stay the fuck out of this fight on the surface, but should continue to send Israel military aid. The EU has allied with the Arabs in order to get their oil and the appease the 25 million muslims living in Europe, and of course in order to hope that the Jewish people dissapear from the earth once and for all. Europe is still the anti-semetic place it was in the 1930's.
Do not be surprised if there is armed conflict soon. I personally would enjoy and IDF raid on Paris....
[QUOTE=George90]Very intelligent post. I just wonder what took you so long. I wish you had engaged in that type of thinking when you tried to bait me into a flame war with you 2 months ago.[/QUOTE]
I don't try to "bait" ANYONE. If I perceived the fact that you trashed me without provocation (such as you did A] WITHOUT offering an intelligent alternative and B] offering the tip of a sword instead of the open hand of intelligent dialogue), I'll return fire. You did JUST THAT and I returned fire.
Can we put down the swords now?
MJD, the EU (in my opinion) is only a monetary might because they assembled a machine of many parts that was made to think alike. However, remember that a machine that has many moving parts is more likely to break down than one that has fewer moving parts (like the US). I get more and more hints from the opinions of the man on the street that the EU is an inperfect machine.
Sinaju- you may be right and that is an excellent parallel you bring up. However the EU needs to clean up its own mess before it dictates to the American people and to the american government, conversly, maybe it is time for the american government to cut bait with Europe. Europe is a drag on the american government and the american people, we get very little , if any return from the Europeans, except our tourist get hassled and spat upon, by the more "civilized europeans".
More dialogue on the french/Israel situation on the Jerusulem Post website for those who want to see what is going on, for this is not being reported on by the Americand media, too hot for them I guess. I guess they would rather report on Michael Richards and his stupid rant, or on Tom Cruise/katie Holmes, pathetic man.
[QUOTE=MJG Dogs]Sinaju- you may be right and that is an excellent parallel you bring up. However the EU needs to clean up its own mess before it dictates to the American people and to the american government, conversly, maybe it is time for the american government to cut bait with Europe. Europe is a drag on the american government and the american people, we get very little , if any return from the Europeans, except our tourist get hassled and spat upon, by the more "civilized europeans".[/QUOTE]
What you say may be correct. However, I think you have left some important stuff out of the argument. The US is not in a strong economic position due to its huge budget and trade deficits. Our federal government borrows from foreigners to plug the deficit. Those foreigners are mostly Chinese, Arab, and European.
All any of them need to do to Royally F*** the US is simply to stop lendng to our federal government (through buying Treasury bonds). The consequences of that will be a huge drop in the value of the US dollar, much higher interest rates, and much higher inflation rates.
We saw some of that happen last year when South Korea accidently said that they planned to "rebalance" their reserve currency portfolio to include more euros and less dollars. The Koreans had to scramble fast telling everyone for a week that they were only thinking about it, they had no plans to actually do it. South Korea is a MINOR player in the US T-bill market. Imagine what will happen if an oil money rich Arab country, like Saudi Arabia, said the same thing!
well george- what does the american household do when it is in debt-
It cuts spending
It does not buy on credit
Why can't our government freeze the level of spending and entitlements for three to five years? If we quit spendign money like drunks, then it the needs to borrow moneis from foreign investors would decrease. But no, both Demorats and Republicans earmark all kinds of wasteful shit, and give away everything. Also why for God sakes do we still give europe, Military aid?. That is a zero retrun on investment?
Quote Lewis Black:
"The only thing dumber than a Republican or a Democrat is when these assholes work together".
hey beavis;
When are the alligators going to be planted in the Rio Grande. Your idea about securing the Rio Grande is th ebst I have heard so far. Also read up on some more shit, Tancredo is stating that there is framework already started led by Dumbo and Vicente fox to create an American Union an AU, that means se se puede everywhere, we need to stop this shit, oh I too will be in Colombia full time. I hope all is well...
yes americans Bush is giving away our soverignty to the free trade crowd, we may become part of a EU like union. THAT WOULD REALLY SUCK
[QUOTE=George90]What you say may be correct. However, I think you have left some important stuff out of the argument. The US is not in a strong economic position due to its huge budget and trade deficits. Our federal government borrows from foreigners to plug the deficit. Those foreigners are mostly Chinese, Arab, and European.
All any of them need to do to Royally F*** the US is simply to stop lendng to our federal government (through buying Treasury bonds). The consequences of that will be a huge drop in the value of the US dollar, much higher interest rates, and much higher inflation rates.
We saw some of that happen last year when South Korea accidently said that they planned to "rebalance" their reserve currency portfolio to include more euros and less dollars. The Koreans had to scramble fast telling everyone for a week that they were only thinking about it, they had no plans to actually do it. South Korea is a MINOR player in the US T-bill market. Imagine what will happen if an oil money rich Arab country, like Saudi Arabia, said the same thing![/QUOTE]
The exposure to foreign creditors is definitely not a good thing, but the reason they don't "foreclose" isn't exactly out of the goodness of their hearts. The US remains the most politically and economically stable place to park assets there is, so they're going to keep doing it. That's the kind of thing that could change if the US goes around losing wars on a regular basis.
But more importantly, it's like they say - if you owe the bank $1000, you have a problem, if you owe the bank $1,000,000, the bank has a problem. Destabilizing the dollar and/or the US economy by calling the debt is likely to cause more of an upheavel in the rest of the world than in the US, so it's in their own best self interest to keep buying Treasuries. Of course, nothing lasts forever.
[QUOTE=MJG Dogs]well george- what does the american household do when it is in debt-
It cuts spending
It does not buy on credit
Why can't our government freeze the level of spending and entitlements for three to five years? [/QUOTE]
Because of corporate welfare! Lots of big firms, like Halliburton, Boeing, and many smaller firms, see the federal goernment as a huge breast lactating all kinds of money to for them. Defense contractors, security contractors, election machine software writers, Medicaid and Medicare claims processors, all have a vested interest in keeping the government spending huge amounts of money. They pay all those lobbyists, (Abramoff et al), to reward politicians, (DeLay, Ney, et al) to keep the money flowing.
When We the People learn to do with less and smaller government handouts, then we can vote those guys out, and vote in more financially reponsible politicians.
[QUOTE=MJG Dogs]Also read up on some more shit, Tancredo is stating that there is framework already started led by Dumbo and Vicente fox to create an American Union an AU, that means se se puede everywhere, we need to stop this shit,[/QUOTE]
That is true! Bush has wanted to create a North American free trade zone with open trade between Canada, the US, and Mexico. Also in the works is a special trade agreement with the Caribbean. We know that a special trade agreement with Central America has already been signed. Bush's corporate supporters have wanted free trade for the entire western hemisphere! Their goal is to move certain types of low skilled jobs out of the US and into countries like Mexico, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, etc, where they can pay dirt cheap wages and no health insurance.
The US could look like a third world country in 25 years. Just the rich and the poor, no middle class.
[QUOTE=hardbarg]The exposure to foreign creditors is definitely not a good thing, but the reason they don't "foreclose" isn't exactly out of the goodness of their hearts. The US remains the most politically and economically stable place to park assets there is, so they're going to keep doing it. That's the kind of thing that could change if the US goes around losing wars on a regular basis.
But more importantly, it's like they say - if you owe the bank $1000, you have a problem, if you owe the bank $1,000,000, the bank has a problem. Destabilizing the dollar and/or the US economy by calling the debt is likely to cause more of an upheavel in the rest of the world than in the US, so it's in their own best self interest to keep buying Treasuries. Of course, nothing lasts forever.[/QUOTE]
What you say is exactly correct and very true. And therein lies great danger.
Both you and I know that the oil rich nations and the US need each other for mutual benefit. We need them to get the oil we need and lend us the money we do not have the will to stop borrowing. They need us for a safe place to invest their money.
Now, imagine that al Qaeda comes to the same conclusion as you, and realizes that a decline in the ability of oil rich countries to continue to lend to us will disrupt both the US and those countries. Bin Laden vowed to overthrow Suadi Arabia because he felt they were defiling Islam, the Prophets, and the Holy cities of Mecca and Medina. The terrorists can hit 2 or 3 birds with 1 stone if they attack and destabilize the currency and international finance markets.
I think we are very lucky that the madrasses that train terrorists do not teach them finance!
[QUOTE=MJG Dogs]Do not be surprised if there is armed conflict soon. I personally would enjoy and IDF raid on Paris....[/QUOTE]
Hahaha, MJG Dogs must be one very frustrated Jew. So much hatred and incomprehensible criticism of EU and Europeans. Tell you what young man, sign up for a 3 years military service contract with Israeli army and once you defeat the trash army of Hezbollah, then you can start thinking of the French ;) I guess I won't keep my breath.
The following was in a financial article Nov. 24, 2006:
The dollar dropped sharply against a broad range of major currencies today, and the euro broke through the $1.30 mark for the first time in a year and a half, highlighting concern about the strength of the American economy.
The dollar’s losses came during a thin trading day in which the British pound rose to its strongest value against the dollar in two years. The Japanese yen and the Swiss franc also gained at the dollar’s expense.
Analysts said that the dollar’s drop today reflected a growing anxiety over Chinese economic policy. China’s central bank holds a large amount of American currency, and speculation has intensified recently that it could begin selling off dollars to avoid being burned if the dollar collapses.
[QUOTE=MJG Dogs]hey beavis;
When are the alligators going to be planted in the Rio Grande. Your idea about securing the Rio Grande is th ebst I have heard so far. Also read up on some more shit, Tancredo is stating that there is framework already started led by Dumbo and Vicente fox to create an American Union an AU, that means se se puede everywhere, we need to stop this shit, oh I too will be in Colombia full time. I hope all is well...
yes americans Bush is giving away our soverignty to the free trade crowd, we may become part of a EU like union. THAT WOULD REALLY SUCK[/QUOTE]
Yes the alligator plan was a classic. I hate to even get started in these political topics because of the high number of Americans that hold the illusion of Bush being a god. Just like when they claimed that iflation was below 3% about a month ago. I don't know where these people are shopping but it sure isn't the same store I do.
beav
the problem is not just bush, but all of them. too many lawyers, feeding at the trough, we really need a third party. the dems are now just as bad as the repub's. it sucks. but hey maybe the tony lama butch's from the del rey will run as a third party, complete with snakeskin boots and speedos
Yes that is true. Neither one is worth a shit. Both a gang of crooked liars that want more for themselves and less for us.
[url]http://i.euniverse.com/funpages/cms_content/13180/HillaryCondi_HoDown.swf[/url]
fucking funny as hell beavis.
[QUOTE=George90]Both you and I know that the oil rich nations and the US need each other for mutual benefit. We need them to get the oil we need and lend us the money we do not have the will to stop borrowing. They need us for a safe place to invest their money.
Now, imagine that al Qaeda comes to the same conclusion as you, and realizes that a decline in the ability of oil rich countries to continue to lend to us will disrupt both the US and those countries. Bin Laden vowed to overthrow Suadi Arabia because he felt they were defiling Islam, the Prophets, and the Holy cities of Mecca and Medina. The terrorists can hit 2 or 3 birds with 1 stone if they attack and destabilize the currency and international finance markets.
I think we are very lucky that the madrasses that train terrorists do not teach them finance![/QUOTE]
If you think the top echelons of Jihadist terrorism aren't at least as knowledgeable about international finance as us great thinkers on ISG, you're fooling yourself. Keeping the brainwashed foot soldiers ignorant is irrelevant. It's very true there is a real, committed, murderous enemy with multiple incentives to attack us out there. The mystery is why it hasn't happened again.
On the other hand, 9/11 didn't destabilize much of anything, and there's no reason to assume another attack of similar intensity would either. Allowing things like Iraq to turn into a demonstration that the US is a bumbling, ineffectual, paper tiger in dealing with it's enemies is another story. Similarly, failing to treat energy independence as a national security issue is extremely dangerous. Unfortunately, what we get are subsidies for corn farmers instead.
MJG - to continue from colombia photo gallery, why that view on europeans?
I am American by the way.
Jon32:
View on Europeans, ok here we go:
1) The Europeans do not know how to tell the difference between Americans and American Politics. Many Europeans have been and down right hostile to american tourist, where as you hardly ever hear of a European tourist being hassled while they are here. There is no reason to spit on American children in London, beat this hsit out of some guy from Utah, who was trying to run down two thieves who stole his camcorder, he was pummeled in the streets of Naples, by both Italian citizens and by the police. It took an apology from the mayor of Naples to soothe things over, and of course our worthless state department did nothing to help this guy. My girlfriend whom is Colombian works for her aunt in Milan, says that most of the young people in Milan hassle Americans. And yet the hypocracy of Europeans who want our tourist dollars and act like this, Fuck Them.....
2) Europeans trying to impose the laws of Europe on americans. eg: International Criminal courts, consumption tariffs, shaking down of Microsoft etc... Who do these fuckers think they are? Fuck them.....
3) anti-semitism- first of all I am not Jewish, nor am I a practicing christian. But if you read on what is going on in Europe now you see the 1930's all overa agin. Jews are starting to be beaten in the cities, especially in France, Belguim and to a lessor extent Spain and Italy. Lets face it Europe still uses the jews as a scapegoat, but Europe is still angry about Israel surviving after 1948, for when Israel was founded the Europeans were all for it, for they thought that the Arabs would wipe the Jews out, eg: finish the holocaust, now they always side with the palestinians, not becuase of any great love for the Palestinians, but of shear hatred of Israel. The Europeans for years hid their hatred of Israel, I guess out of shame, but not anymore.
4) Constant lecturing by the European media. In 2004 the British media sent thousands of e-mails telling the people in Ohio to vote for Kerry, of course this backfired, for americans as you know do not like having some Euro telling him whom to vote for. The European media likes to lecture us on how dumb Americans are? Well the Europeans I guess do not undertsand that there are more people with masters degrees in the United States than in Europe, as a whole. I also do not need Europe constantly hammering the UN to impose restrictions on gun ownership throughout the World. There is only one country whom Europe and the UN are targeting, The USA. I wonder why they do not want us to be armed? Think about it with an open mind. Hint, It has nothing to do with our soaring crime rates. Robberies per capita are much higher in Great Britain than they are here in the US. Again think why they do not want us to be armed?
5) The constant degrading of our dead soldiers who died liberating Europe from the Germans. the Uk Guardian and a French newspapers used Novermber 11th, 2006, as a day to defecate on our dead. they claim that the Americans were not very good fighters and did nothing to contribute to the victory. The in western europe now give the Soviets all of the credit for winning ww2. I guess they have never heard of Patton, whom was the most feared allied commander by the Germans in the second war. One of the editorails was written by a member of British parliament, someone from the Labor Party, It was revolting to read, but I was not surprised. I called his deputy and told him to come over here, to lets say georgia or alabama and spout his mouth and defecate the memory of the dead on american soil and see what would happen to him.
Do you wnat anymore examples. Americans need to understand one thing The Europeans have never liked us and now are not hiding their hatred towards Americans as a whole, we in their minds are one step above the Jews in their minds, and it is about time that Americans wake up to this fact and quit trying to be nice to them. We also need to pull out all of our troops out of Europe, and whn the Islamo-facists gobble up Europe, our govermnet and our military should not do a damm thing. It will be then that maybe we in this nation get serious about defending ourselves and quit listening to this worthless European continent. Yes my views may be extreme to some of you, but the five paragraphs that I pointed out above, are factual.........
As G.W Nero plays with his toy soldiers in foreign lands, the people at home are felling yet more financial burdens
[url]http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20061127/ts_csm/cbonus[/url]
[QUOTE=Furiouz]As G.W Nero plays...[/QUOTE]Well, the trajectory of American power in the world makes for an interesting topic, but let me ask you - if you had a choice between living like Nero, Caligula and Commodus versus living like Augustus, Trajan or Marcus Aurelius who do you think you would pick?
Obviously, it's nice to go to your grave with everyone dwelling on your stoic values and high-minded accomplishments, but I can't imagine the men who read and post things on this forum are a natural fit for that kind of lifestyle. What does it really matter to you, personally, if the United States is in decline or not? I guess people get laid more often when culture is in decline. Nero knew how to throw a party.
Anyway, as an American, I point out, defensively and respectfully, that your analogy with Nero is not the best - since Nero was an emperor many years before the Roman Empire reached it's peak.
This guy got too little affection as kid. He couldn't restrain himself from stupid comments even in Colombia Photo Gallery! I'll keep it short, becasue my time is too valuable to comment on garbage that merely deserves a four plus three letter answer.
[b]1)[/b] An American got his camcorder stolen in Naples, Italy. Wow, it's a big world you know, shit happends. I guess all New Yorkers are genuine assholes becasue somebody from Kazakhstan got pickpocketed there, right? Oh, schoolyard fights must be typical European? You have never been involved in a fight during elementary/high school time? Give me a break. What a whimp...
Tourists from all over the world come to visit Europe, and nobody gives a shit about their nationality. Why you believe that Europeans would pay special attention to Americans, yet spit on them (!), is beyond me. Most likely wishthinking from your side.
[b]2)[/b] From [url]http://www.icc-cpi.int/about.html[/url]
[i]"The International Criminal Court (ICC) is an independent, permanent court that tries persons accused of the most serious crimes of international concern, namely genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes. The ICC is based on a treaty, joined by [url=http://www.icc-cpi.int/statesparties.html]103 countries[/url]."[/i]
Hence, ICC is similar to the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal. Or did you object it too? Or does it bother you that there may exist American citizens who have committed crimes against humanity? Well, this should be decided by court of law, not by politicians who may or may not be involved in dirty business. The Bush administration has been trying to undermine the ICC by coarse bribes to dictators in 3rd world countries for either not joining the ICC, or not extradite Americans to the court. Yepp, anything goes, no remorse from an administration whose members possibly could be found guilty of war crimes. You know, the UN has never given its mandate to attack Iraq, so the war is illegitimate, and the suffering of Iraqi people...
If it makes you feel any better, current [url=http://www.icc-cpi.int/organs/presidency.html]presidency[/url] of ICC is held by three judges: One from Canada, one from Ghana, and one from Bolivia. By the way, the Red Cross HQ is located in Switzerland, Europe. Damn, we should stop those bastards from carrying out their mission, because they are surely infiltrated by European Union.
Regarding Microsoft, it has to comply with EU regulations, simple as that. Google for instance, had to bend over in China and obey their regulations. What did you expect, bring regulations from back home?
[QUOTE=MJG Dogs]Who do these fuckers think they are?[/quote]Masters of Europe, craddle of modern civilization.
How about that? You like it? You like it?
[b]3)[/b] In several posts you have defended Jews and Israel, mentioning "...Jews and Americans", in aforementioned order. Excuse me, but I'm pretty sure you are just one very bitter and frustrated Jew. There is no shame in being Jewish, no reason to deny your origin.
On behalf of the UK, let me enlighten you, that there would be no Israel to start with, if the UK didn't fucking donate part of its colony, namely Palestine to your people. Do you understand me, you ungrateful....?
Only a lunatic can claim that such a noble act as donation of land to an ethnic group, was nothing else than an evil plan to annihilate Jews, three years after the WWII. And according to your conspiracy theory, the English did it in full cooperation with other Europeans. Should we assume that FD Rooselvelt, and later on Harry Truman, also participated in this conspiracy? Or perhaps they were totally clueless about what was going on?
[b]4)[/b] Uhmm, uttermost schizophrenic, but let me rephrase what [b]MJG Dogs[/b] actually says.
Europe is in favour of gun control and refers to statistics; firearms are dangerous, especially in hands of teethless rednecks and angry teenagers; the national security of the United States of America is at stake; Europe can take advantage of unarmed Americans and possibly attack the country. Ok, this must be yet a conspiracy theory of [b]MJG Dogs[/b].
[i]"[url=http://www.guncite.com/cnngunde.html]The United States has by far the highest rate of gun deaths[/url] -- murders, suicides and accidents -- among the world's 36 richest nations, a government study found. The U.S. rate for gun deaths in 1994 was 14.24 per 100,000 people. Japan had the lowest rate, at .05 per 100,000."[/i]
[i]"Here are gun-related deaths per 100,000 people in the world's 36 richest countries in 1994:
United States 14.24; [u]England and Wales 0.41[/u]; Japan 0.05;"[/i]
As usual [b]MJG Dogs[/b] talks rubbish.
[b]5)[/b][i]"The toehold established at Normandy was vital for the Western Allies (largely the British Commonwealth and the U.S.) to bring the war to the western border of Germany. By this time [u]the Soviet forces had the capacity to crush Germany in Europe on their own[/u], and therefore a western invasion was not strictly required to defeat the German Reich. On D-Day, the Red Army was steadily advancing towards Germany and four-fifths of the German forces were in the East. In France, [u]the Allies faced only about 20% of the German army[/u]."[/i]
Source [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Overlord]here[/url]. Get the facts before you ask for attention!
[QUOTE=MJG Dogs]Americans need to understand one thing The Europeans have never liked us and now are not hiding their hatred towards Americans as a whole, we in their minds are one step above the Jews in their minds, and it is about time that Americans wake up to this fact and quit trying to be nice to them.[/quote]Talk for yourself, dude. You are saturated with hate, and nobody is interested nor capable of absorbing amounts of hate you are spreading on this forum. I don't know what has happened to you in the past, but I do feel sorry for you.
you response to the point about the British "donating "part of a previous colony to form Israel speaks volumes. Again, I was born and raised a Roman Catholic. But the line you ungrateful....... gee I wonder what you mean there limey? It is also interesting to note that Iraq and Israel were both formed out of Colonial Britian, interesting parallel. but we know you Brits did a mighty fine job in Iraq, in India and in Africa. Your colonies were harmonious and nobody ever was murdered or tortured, yes no killings at all during the times of Mr.Gandhi.
I am glad to know that you are the masters of Europe, craddle of civilization.
Should we bow to you now master?????
As far as the ICC goes , your right no remorse, no signatures from the Reagan, Bush 41, or Clinton administration either, sorry no remorse, no signature from any American Government, including a future one. It will not happen- get over it.
Kyoto- Nope, sorry
[QUOTE=Jelly Donut]Well, the trajectory of American power in the world makes for an interesting topic, but let me ask you - if you had a choice between living like Nero, Caligula and Commodus versus living like Augustus, Trajan or Marcus Aurelius who do you think you would pick?
Obviously, it's nice to go to your grave with everyone dwelling on your stoic values and high-minded accomplishments, but I can't imagine the men who read and post things on this forum are a natural fit for that kind of lifestyle. What does it really matter to you, personally, if the United States is in decline or not? I guess people get laid more often when culture is in decline. Nero knew how to throw a party.
Anyway, as an American, I point out, defensively and respectfully, that your analogy with Nero is not the best - since Nero was an emperor many years before the Roman Empire reached it's peak.[/QUOTE]
Arg, you are right. I keep getting my Emperors mixed up, I should I have read a little before posting. I keep thinking Nero was in the 4th century, but that was when the Empire split, no? To answer your question, Augustus and Pax Romana all the way.
[QUOTE=Leeuwen] On behalf of the UK, let me enlighten you, that there would be no Israel to start with, if the UK didn't fucking donate part of its colony, namely Palestine to your people. [/QUOTE]
This is a point of information for Leeeuwen and MJG regarding the formation of Israel.
The old and defeated Ottoman empire was divided among the Allies after WWI. France got a part that became Lebanon and Syria. Most of the rest was given to the Arab clans that helped the Allies defeat Turkey (the rule of the Ottoman empire). Some of those clans were the Saud clan which was given Suadi Arabia, other emirs were gven Kuwait, Qatar, United Arab Emirates. The Faisal clan got what became Iraq. The Hussein clan got what became Jordan.
An area under dispute was retained by Britain until the dispute could be resolved. That area was called Palestine and Trans-Jordania. The dispute was between Russian Jews who had been emigrating to that area since 1870 or so and wanted it for themselves, and native Arabs who wanted the land as tribute for fighting in the war. After years of terrorism by both Arabs and Jews (the Stern Gang) and after WWII, Britain, weakened from WWII and losing its other colonies, decided to succomb to US pressure and let Jewish refugees settle there in a new country called Israel.
Note that part of this pressure was due to the reluctance to let Jewish refugees settle in the US or in Britain proper. Palestine was never a British colony in the sense that India, the colonial US, Nigeria, Ghana, the West Indies, etc. were.
Hi Dogs - I am sorry for you and I pitty you.
What you write here is for sure is meanwhile a widely accepted opinion in the US.
But - the US Government creats the monsters they want to protect us from.
-Uncle Ho asked first the US after WWII for help before
he was turned down and asked the Russians and China
-The majority of the guns Castro got where from the US.
-Was Pinochet the elected president of Chile or Salvador
Allende?
-The US dealt with Iran in the IRAN/Contra affair
-Whome did you liberate in Afghanistan?
-Why do you not invade Syria? No oil????
-Why do you not invade Yemen - not enough DOPE???
-Why do you not stop the killing in Sierra Leone -
only NIGGERS???
-Why do you finace KABILA - because the French and the
Belgians are still deeply involved in the Kongo???
You know - American politics have fucked up the world considerably - I could continue this list forever - but why?
The shame is that the US is not a realy democracy - how many percent of the population actually register and vote?? 35 - 40 % ? Here in Europe approx. 70 - 80 % go and vote. You knwo that in Brazil you MUST vote or otherwise you do not get a passport???
The AMERICAN MAJORITY is not a majority - it is a minority which is manipulating the majority. - But that is an American problem - did you ever hear that Europe wanted to interfer in this or even dared to comment on this. Certainly not - we have a little bit of decency.
The strange thing is only - we Europeans do not hate Americans - not the citisen. They are the same people as we are - what do we want? Safety, health, luck, work, family, a steady income etc.
The Americans think, that all the world has to accept their values, regulations, laws and politics. Sorry - that is not the case. As home of the "real democracy" you have to accept that other people have other values and standards and if they disagree with you does not mean that they hate you. Here in Europe we are meanwhile at a level where we can afford to have a different view. We do not start a fight about it, we just ignore you if you do not have the politeness and fairness to accept also our views and do not accept that you impose your views on us.
My grand-parents came from 4 different European countries - I have a French family-name, served for several years in two armies in Africa, Asia and the Balkans. I know what war is and that it should be avoided by all means. Unfortunately I have not seen any notion in US Government policy towards that - The US is still carrying a big stick and uses it first and finds later out that it is stuck in deep shit. What freedom did you bring to Vietnam? What freedom and democracy are you bringing to Irak? The US was laughing at Hans Blix - he did not find Arms of Mass Destruction in Irak - that did not suit the US Government, so he was mobbed by your government. Where are these arms now? Was he right? The UN is doing a good job - mainly in Africa - the US is not even contributing to the budget of the UN - yes, the US is pleding every year money, but is not paying. But if there is some corruption in the UN (for sure that does never ever happen in the US Government) than the US is standing up and pointing fingers. The funny thing is - it is not even the US tax-payers money. So - what are you complaing about? I really do not know what the US has against the UN. They are using American Ideas - installing a Internation Court (American Idea - rember Nuernberg 1945/46) proclaiming human rights (American Idea - but only The US Government knows how to apply this rights) etc.
I do not think that we have to discuss Mr. Bush here - you see - we have the prerogative to have a different view on him.
Another funny thing: you mentioned guns. Do you know that the conscripts in Switzerland get their assault rifle to take them home after they leave the service? Did you ever hear that there are mass-murders in Switzerland. Do you know that Austria and Germany are armed to their teeths? The German population is a little bit under 100 million and the German FBI estimates that there are approx. 20 million arms in private hands. The same ratio applies to Austria as well. In the year 2005 whole Germany had 822 gun-related deaths. We do not want your values - where people are killed in drive-by shootings - we do not want to have your values where only the rich ones can afford a good education of their kids.
We do not hate you - but you are so ignorant that it is impossible to convince you and mak you accept that we have views which are different - not detrimental !!!
Therefore the best is - you go your way - we go our way.
Keep on mongering - I hope you can agree at least on that with us.
Carlos Primeros - King of Portugal in exile.
[QUOTE=MJG Dogs]you response to the point about the British "donating "part of a previous colony to form Israel speaks volumes. Again, I was born and raised a Roman Catholic. But the line you ungrateful....... gee I wonder what you mean there limey? It is also interesting to note that Iraq and Israel were both formed out of Colonial Britian, interesting parallel. but we know you Brits did a mighty fine job in Iraq, in India and in Africa. Your colonies were harmonious and nobody ever was murdered or tortured, yes no killings at all during the times of Mr.Gandhi.
I am glad to know that you are the masters of Europe, craddle of civilization.
Should we bow to you now master?????
As far as the ICC goes , your right no remorse, no signatures from the Reagan, Bush 41, or Clinton administration either, sorry no remorse, no signature from any American Government, including a future one. It will not happen- get over it.
Kyoto- Nope, sorry[/QUOTE]
Truly a classic. This fucktard writes a fucking manifesto, only to have it shredded by facts and reason.......then responds with some incoherent babbling so he can pretend that he didn't just get shown to be the fool that he is.
So how does it feel to "straighten the world out" with a big declaration of your brilliant insight, only to be shown in no uncertain terms that you are a delusional, hate mongering moronic idiot.
By the way, do you still feel that the US should have helped Serbia commit ethnic genocide against Muslims in the former Yugoslavia.......fucking piece of shit fascist fuck.
B9k
[QUOTE=Bart9000]“First of all, "tax and spend" is right wing propaganda. The debt and deficit shrank quite considerably the last time there was a Democrat in the white house..Only to be blown to historically unprescedented levels under "the current occupant", which has in addition to laying a huge debt (and future heavy taxation to eventually pay for it) on the US dollar...B9k[/QUOTE]Gotta love how libs never let the facts get in the way of an emotional lecture. The federal debt increased every year under Clinton. [url]http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdhisto4.htm[/url]
A popular dem myth, Clinton used smoke and mirrors. He transfered all war expenses to off-line budgeting, to create the imaginary good times. The debt never lies.
Libs embarrassingly view the economy in static fashion, as it helps their fictitious points. As a percentage of GDP, last years deficit didn't even make the top ten highest. Bush changed the Clinton shenanigans, and put the war expense online. If you subtracted the war and Katrina, we weren't far from a surplus last year.
The falling dollar: when you combine a booming economy with full employment and miniscule inflation, the interest rates become less attractive. In the last 3 years, the US economy has grown 20 percent, an amount greater than almost every economy in the world. Hedge funds are taking more risk due to increased liquidity, and are chasing the fast money in short term currency fluctations, ie, investing in countries with failing economies, high unemployment, and thus higher interest rates (hello Europe). The new dot com game is being played in manipulated futures markets, with the top 3 being gold, oil, and the euro the last 2 months.
The euro is right where it was 2 years ago, during which time unprecedented fortunes were made in US real estate, as well as smaller US market indexes like the Russell (doubled in the last 3 years). Hell, even the dow was up near 20% in the last 6 months. I'll take a massive net worth increase over a temporarily deflated dollar any day.
I guess libs dream of the glory Carter years, home to a prime interest rate of 21.5%, and 16% inflation...but oh boy that dollar was strong. Not to mention he's the father of terrorism. He booted out the Shah and installed Khomenei, creating the Islam nightmare we live we today. Plus, when he got bored, he back for a pro-dictator tour and negotiated giving nukes to N. Korea, and helped get Chavez elected.
The reason the US debt is out of control is failed liberal entitlement policies. We've spent tens of trillions on SS, Medicare, and Welfare, and currently have an unfunded liability near $20 trillion. The debt on these failed socialist experiments is also a multi-trillion dollar disaster.
Who fed you this little gem? So there was no budget surplus? OK then, what was the fucking corrrupt incompetent piece of shit in the white house GIVING AWAY -retroactively- in the first months of his "presidency"? Surely the poster boy, arch prince, "prodigal son" of conservatism wasn't handing out money that we didn't have. I got a check some where around like June of 2000 (or was that 01). Didn't you get one? If I recall correctly, that would have been for President' Clinton's last year in office
"A popular dem myth, Clinton used smoke and mirrors. He transfered all war expenses to off-line budgeting, to create the imaginary good times. The debt never lies.
Libs embarrassingly view the economy in static fashion, as it helps their fictitious points. As a percentage of GDP, last years deficit didn't even make the top ten highest. Bush changed the Clinton shenanigans, and put the war expense online. If you subtracted the war and Katrina, we weren't far from a surplus last year."
Would you care to document this statement? Kindly source it by someone that isn't a right wing talk facist. For that matter, WHAT WAR EXPENSES would you be referring to? I wasn't paying too much attention at the time, but I don't believe that there was much of a war during the Clinton presidency. We bombed Serbia......had some kind of a little intervention in Haiti........to the extent of my knowledge, neither of those military actions required paying civilian contractors 10,000+ a month (and I don't even want to KNOW what Halliburton is BILLING for people like that).
I find it interesting that you are decrying one "bubble" (currency markets), while cheerleading another (real estate). Do the words "intellectual consistency" mean anything to you? I won't completely discount your theory about how the dollar is getting speculated down as I hold a similar one in the oil market (actually, I suspect collusion, due to the way that the market moved, plunging like a cannonball in a swimming pool, instead of like a "tennis match", indicative of hitting some legitimate demand/support on the way down)
Regarding the currency market, Bush inherited a powderkeg in the form of the current account deficit.
[url]https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html[/url]
In a nutshell, the ramification of this is that there are a whole hell of a lot more people worldwide who want to be "short" dollars (sell them, having received them in exchange for goods and services provided to us), than there are who want to be "long".
While dumbshit and company didn't cause this deficit (the CA), what he did do was with his bullshit war (which I personally believe was motivated by the desire to incapacitate a major supplier of oil, thus driving prices upwards....what a coincidence) was "light the fuse" on the powderkeg, by spending more money that we don't have. Deficits are financed by borrowing (in large part from foreign countries---I understand that China, and I'm not sure who else have large positions) in the form of debt securities-bonds, bills, notes, etc. These are considered in finance to be "risk free" investments due to the department of the treasuries capacity to print greenbacks to meet their contractual obligations. Doing so, has, and in the future will continue increase the number of greenbacks in circulation. What happens when the supply of something is increased? Econ 101...it's value goes down.
Staying with my "powderkeg" metaphor, what damage has been caused? I can't remember the term for it, but there has been something that has been considered to be absolute safety that the dollar will for ever and ever be strong.....that is the retention of greenbacks in the treasuries of foreign countries to as I recall stablize their own currencies. This was the insurance policy, word of god, thing that would never ever ever change......until very recently when it DID change......when some foreign governments (believe I recall China and Saudi Arabia. possibly others....don't hold me to that, and ) began DIVESTING themselves (in trading terms this is "short" dollars) of dollars and buying Euros in their place. Should they continue to do so, we could have some really serious problems on our hands.
"I guess libs dream of the glory Carter years, home to a prime interest rate of 21.5%, and 16% inflation...but oh boy that dollar was strong. Not to mention he's the father of terrorism. He booted out the Shah and installed Khomenei, creating the Islam nightmare we live we today. Plus, when he got bored, he back for a pro-dictator tour and negotiated giving nukes to N. Korea, and helped get Chavez elected."
The economic shit on here is nothing but a fucking (Rush Limbaugh's favorite tactic) strawman logical fallacy. Of course nobody wants 16% inflation. However, you seem to be indicating that a strong dollar isn't imperative to our national well being. Been to Wall Mart recently? Flip over a couple of items there and see where they are made......lots of China, Indonesia, Mexico.....I won't hazard a guess as to the percentage (but again I point to the current account deficit also). Let's run a little scenario here shall we? The dollar collapses, with it's value being cut in half against every other currency. De facto, all of the cost (shit I can't think of the word want-It's retail price minus profit margin) of the imported goods in WallMart (as a microcosm for the rest of the economy)double. Now probably due to price elasticity, WallMart couldn't just double their prices, but there would be an increase (Inflation up), and also a reduction in their profits as the gross margin would be down from the costs they are eating. Now what do corporations generally do when profits are down? Lay off people perhaps? Otherwise decrease expenses, which in turn negatively affects their suppliers...who in turn will also probably decrease expenses, and possibly lay people off..........
"He booted out the Shah and installed Khomenei, creating the Islam nightmare we live we today. "
I will defer comment about that to someone more knowledgable about history than I am.
"Plus, when he got bored, he back for a pro-dictator tour "
Does this line make sense to anyone?
and negotiated giving nukes to N. Korea
Didn't North Korea just DEVELOP their own nukes? I could be mistaken, but knowing relatively few historical facts I'm hazarding a guess that this is a LOOOONNNG stretch of a half truth.
, and helped get Chavez elected."
I understand that Hugo Chaves is very greatly beloved by the poor in his country. I do personally however have an issue with him. He referred to dubya as "The Devil"......myself, I prefer "The fucking ANTICHRIST"
"The reason the US debt is out of control is failed liberal entitlement policies. We've spent tens of trillions on SS, Medicare, and Welfare, and currently have an unfunded liability near $20 trillion. The debt on these failed socialist experiments is also a multi-trillion dollar disaster."
Without having any numbers at hand, I can tell you that Wellfare is a little nothing.....it's something like half to three quarters of ONE PERCENT of the federal budget. Now the others do get to be a decent little chunk. However, you idiots are nuts to think that we don't need these things. Want to get rid of Social Security? As a former financial advisor, I can assure you that most people aren't equipped to successfully invest their way into even a modest retirement (and I can elaborate on this subject if you like).....Medicare-I've got an 86 year old Grandmother who is hospitalized for various ailments a couple times a year. A private insurance policy on her, were one even able to be written would cost I'm sure north of 2K per month. So let me get this straight (making a minor presumption that you toe the party line)....you idiots want to protect the estates of the uber wealthy from taxation (even after a 50% bite, often heirs are more than "set for life".)after they die, but want the poor and middle class to eat up their saving (and de facto their estates) paying for private insurance coverage? Can you spell R E G R E S S I V E?
By the way, want to know what a big honking chunk of the deficit is? Ever hear of "corporate welfare"? The Boston Globe cited a figure 11 years ago (Most probably having a had a congress full of corrupt republicans in power in the interm, it's probably worse now) of 150 Billion dollars worth,. Here is a quote:
Every year, an estimated $150 billion - in the form of direct federal subsidies and tax breaks that specifically benefit businesses - is funneled to American companies. Critics call it ``corporate welfare.''
The $150 billion for corporate subsidies and tax benefits eclipses the annual budget deficit of $130 billion. It's more than the $145 billion paid out annually for the core programs of the social welfare state: Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC), student aid, housing, food and nutrition, and all direct public assistance (excluding Social Security and medical care). "
[url]http://www.corporations.org/welfare/globe2.html[/url]
So.......anything else you would like to talk about?
B9k
US Debt has absolutely nothing to do with social policies, its largely American consumerism that has turned the US into the biggest creditor nation in history. Americans are going to soon wake up the fact that they are going to spend their lives paying off debt. Especially the young generation who are neck deep in student loan debt are going to become the first generation who will be worse off than their parents. Its not uncommon for today's young people to spend over 100K to work in a job that might pay 30 to 40k a year. The other issue is that much of our debt is financed by foreigners, oil producing nations and China have been able to effectively lend us money by buying US Treasuries, and now with the dollar falling and an alternative investment vehicle, the Euro, that ability to finance endless debt is going to end. The economic ease which we Americans have been blessed with over the last six decades is not going to last much longer.
[quote=carlos primeros]hi dogs - i am sorry for you and i pitty you.
what you write here is for sure is meanwhile a widely accepted opinion in the us.[/quote]please, not so fast, carlos. don't think for a minute that all of the vitriol dogs spews represents the views of most americans.
sure, there are plenty of people who are unable to apply critical analysis and must have the administration, fox news, and rush limbaugh, and anne coulter, et al, to do all of their thinking for them.
there are an awful lot of ugly americans, and many of the rest of us are embarrassed by them. but they remain in the minority.
please remember that it is not even disputed that mr. bush received fewer votes than his opponent in 2000. and it is extremely likely that the counting was less than forthright in 2004.
there is a major battle going on within america for the soul of this nation. the right wing learned that it benefits them in elections to manipulate the feeble minded by dividing people over bogus issues such as gay rights, religious litmus tests on abortion, and racist rants over immigration.
add in the fear mongering whipped up with periodic references to 9-11 and terrorism, and you can see that the real economic and global issues have barely had a hearing in recent elections here.
our forefathers, inspired by the french, believed in the free marketplace of ideas and wrote it into the first amendment to our constitution.
they realized that the best way to deal with the inane ranting of those like dogs is to expose them to the largest amount of people possible, confident that enough people will eventually reject such nonsense.
it is a slow process, but it is effective. for example, no politician any longer dares to declare "segregation forever" in this country. it has been banished from the lexicon of political speech in this country through the enlightenment of the majority.
the conservatives are so rabid at this time because slowly but surely they are losing the culture wars in america.
instead it is the silence surrounding the most critical issues that is the real problem.
there is very little discourse on diverting our foreign policy establishment and military machine from supporting the corporate interests which have created the very "monsters" that you cited to temporarily serve their interests.
in the meantime, these businesses influence our government to invade the countries whose leaders choose not to play ball with the corporate masters.
naturally, when our government supports the ovethrow of chavez by coup, we are going to make a permanent enemy out of him. it amazes me that the conservatives just can't get their mind around that concept.
these corporate forces are so powerful that i don't know if they will ever be reigned in. i don't expect it to happen in my lifetime, anyway.
finally, let me also say that i have had the privilege to visit europe on a couple of occasions. i was pleased that the people there were easily able to discern and separate the issues surrounding our government from the essence of the american people.
everyone there treated me wonderfully!
db
[QUOTE=Dodger Bulldog]There is very little discourse on diverting our foreign policy establishment and military machine from supporting the corporate interests . . .
In the meantime, these businesses influence our government to invade the countries whose leaders choose not to play ball with the corporate masters.
Naturally, when our government supports the ovethrow of Chavez by coup, we are going to make a permanent enemy out of him. It amazes me that the conservatives just can't get their mind around that concept.
These corporate forces are so powerful that I don't know if they will ever be reigned in. I don't expect it to happen in my lifetime, anyway.
Finally, let me also say that I have had the privilege to visit Europe on a couple of occasions. I was pleased that the people there were easily able to discern and separate the issues surrounding our government from the essence of the American people.
Everyone there treated me wonderfully!
DB[/QUOTE]
Hi Dodger. Well put.
There's a reasonably good article in The Economist today on this point. On the one hand there is the argument about whether America should be engaging in 'smallish wars of choice' at all. But it points out that the real choice for the military planners is in coping with the *likely*, not to restrict democratically elected politicians' options.
America is likely to keep getting involved in such foreign involvements. The 'Chavez coup' possibility you mention, in the language of most planners, merely means that more resources need to be devoted to possible guerrilla actions ('men on the ground') to counter the new enemies of disaffected people, as opposed to high-tech development and deployment (as used in conventional wars). This is similar to the post-invasion Iraq strategy - if the righteous occupation has pushed thousands of people into the cohorts of the terrorists, then more has to be done to combat the additional terrorists in terms of manpower and intelligence, not to avoid creating the situation in the first place.
Avoiding war and sales of arms means massive loss of revenue. Which is maybe one of the reasons there is so little planning for it. (Using a similar type of circular logic, if military options are costly on the economy, then the financial rewards need to be made even greater.) Military options, like 'diplomacy', are geared to financial benefits. The military ones simply have added financial benefits.
I think most Europeans are aware that most (or the large contingent of) Americans don't support Bush. The U.S. is simply stuck with him. Maybe we can just hope he doesn't find a way in his remaining term to start world war three. Some of the European generosity of spirit may in part be the simmering awareness that we may (especially Brits) have to apologise for our own government when we go abroad to certain politically aware developing countries.
Well said, even though my employment revolves around the oil industry and I have made the most money I have ever made I still cannot force myself to support this spineless moron (Bush). The only consulation we have at the moment is to hang on until he gets out. But, if we are involved in a major war will the election still be held? This could be the foundation for his proposal to invade Iran. That way the crook and Mr. Halliburton will be able to add a few more billion dollars to the oil cartel money before he gets out.
Chavez ran on national health care and nationalized the oil companies.
That he is a dictator there is no doubt.
Clinton is running on national health care and wants to sieze the profits of the oil companies (nationalizing).
Is it any wonder the same lib nuts who support Cavez support Clinton?
Wait let me guess, you belive in Global Warming.
[QUOTE=Wise Buddy]As a German all the american citizens I ask - no one has elected Mr.Bush.
In between I ask myself who has elected the president - only hillbillies and rednecks?
And about a "little war" in Venezuela.
I remember when the crew of an american warship informed Mr.Bush "mission completed".
What a lie!
The USA have their new Vietnam in Irak already, and now another Vietnam in the backyard of the US?
The US even didnt suceed in little Haiti - what a disgrace - but what can you expect from a cowardish president who never served in the miltiary?
The hypocrisy of the population of the US is that Monica Lewinsky made more opponents to the president than thousands of dead soldiers in Irak nowadays!
War seems to be better than a BJ.
Are the majority of the US poulation war mongers?
Its ridiculous.
W.B.[/QUOTE]
I don't think you'll ever run into somebody that is able to travel internationally supports Bush.
You would be shocked how many people are asleep at the wheel in this country.
They are easily fooled, easily hoodwinked!
It helps if Fox News, Bill O'Reily et al wordsmith everything to for those easily fooled (many of them in the hills of the Eastern US and Deep South). That ends up being many, many people. Combine that with shenanigans by the Republican party and you have what you have currently.
Many of us don't like it but feel powerless to stop it currently. We elected a majority Democratic Congress and what's happening? Resolutions to stop Move-on.org and beat the drum for starting war with Iran. Not passing S chip is one thing, but not stopping the veto by Bush is inexcusable.
So many of us are reaching and asking for Gore to re-run again and bullshiet like that...
The candidates that make any sense will not gain enough traction to get elected (Ron Paul and Dennis Kusinisch) we'll end up with either Hilary, or Edwards I would think and that would actually be an improvement on all fronts.
I am about ready to jump ship. My father's death has given me the income to actually consider such a move.
Some seem to think an Iran attack won't happen, I think its about 50/50 now... And the rhetoric is the same, just the words changed around a bit.
The US is going to get less involved in foreign affairs in the coming decades, its economic presence is not as dominating as it used to be, there are other big economic players on the horizon. Part of the reason why the US was able to interfere in the affairs of smaller countries was its unchallenged economic leverage. Chavez is cooing Europe right now and the EU is buying favors worldwide. China is moving into Africa to get a hold of the continent's resources. India will be doing the same in another 20 years or so.
Don't get confused, Europeans are not out for the good of the common man, the EU is an expansionist Imperialist organization.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]The US is going to get less involved in foreign affairs in the coming decades, its economic presence is not as dominating as it used to be, there are other big economic players on the horizon. Part of the reason why the US was able to interfere in the affairs of smaller countries was its unchallenged economic leverage. Chavez is cooing Europe right now and the EU is buying favors worldwide. China is moving into Africa to get a hold of the continent's resources. India will be doing the same in another 20 years or so.
Don't get confused, Europeans are not out for the good of the common man, the EU is an expansionist Imperialist organization.[/QUOTE]
That may well be true, however just like the debate in global warming, not everybody is signaling the the death of the US as a economic and social powerhouse even in the next 50-100 years.
Most of it is the fact that China has way too many uneducated and unskilled labor. The story is the same with India. You really think these nations with large populations are all of a sudden going to leapfrog the US???
To be honest sooner or later the changes that are needed to keep America on top will be made. The last time the Republican party was in power during a war (WWI), we got The Great Depression. When policy was changed by FDR, the middle class exploded and kept progressive presidents in POWER despite being killed off (Kennedy).
When we didn't have strong progressive candidates (Not everything Nixon did was BAD, but....) something happen negatively and because of that we didn't get any real change until Carter. But as soon as the hostages were released and Regan put into office, he being apart of the New American Century was going to finally put their "new ideas" to work, we got Reganomics and the largest spending on our military in our history.
Granted we are using that first in Kuwait and now in Iraq/Afghanistan, but last I heard until new bullets/guns were made we were using ammo and guns from Vietnam now on year 4 in Iraq/Afghanistan.
Still 30% agrees with the war, believes Saddam had something to do with 9/11 and they are still making that connection whenever they can in the White House.
The other 70% are ready for real change where its needed - HERE
All we have to do is right the ship and we'll dominate because unlike those places that are usually mentioned as the next "power" in the world do not have the [b]diversity[/b] which is our strength.
The EU has in-fighting, different cultures and welfare to other countries. It will take a LONG time and they'll need the UK on board to even THINK about replacing the US as a dominating force.
[QUOTE=DJ FourMoney]That may well be true, however just like the debate in global warming, not everybody is signaling the the death of the US as a economic and social powerhouse even in the next 50-100 years.
Most of it is the fact that China has way too many uneducated and unskilled labor. The story is the same with India. You really think these nations with large populations are all of a sudden going to leapfrog the US???
To be honest sooner or later the changes that are needed to keep America on top will be made. The last time the Republican party was in power during a war (WWI), we got The Great Depression. When policy was changed by FDR, the middle class exploded and kept progressive presidents in POWER despite being killed off (Kennedy).
When we didn't have strong progressive candidates (Not everything Nixon did was BAD, but....) something happen negatively and because of that we didn't get any real change until Carter. But as soon as the hostages were released and Regan put into office, he being apart of the New American Century was going to finally put their "new ideas" to work, we got Reganomics and the largest spending on our military in our history.
Granted we are using that first in Kuwait and now in Iraq/Afghanistan, but last I heard until new bullets/guns were made we were using ammo and guns from Vietnam now on year 4 in Iraq/Afghanistan.
Still 30% agrees with the war, believes Saddam had something to do with 9/11 and they are still making that connection whenever they can in the White House.
The other 70% are ready for real change where its needed - HERE
All we have to do is right the ship and we'll dominate because unlike those places that are usually mentioned as the next "power" in the world do not have the [b]diversity[/b] which is our strength.
The EU has in-fighting, different cultures and welfare to other countries. It will take a LONG time and they'll need the UK on board to even THINK about replacing the US as a dominating force.[/QUOTE]
Asian countries have been dominant many times in history, and they had large uneducated populations. If you really think of it, many Americans are left out in the cold compared to the rich and famous. This is nothing new. China is not a democracy, its a police state and one that works really well.
The EU infighting is minimal, they do not need the UK, in fact, without the UK, European integration would have occurred much sooner. Continental Europeans see the UK as agent of the US like Asians see Japan in the same way, although the UK is much closer with the US while Japan is moving away from America back towards Asia.
The Dollar is in its sick phase not only because of politics but because of constant trade deficits and massive debts held by individual Americans and the government. Unfortunately, we depend upon the rest of the planet to help finance this debt but now many countries do not want to do this. Bush has completely tarnished America's image for a long time. The Dollar is also the basis of much of America's influence around the globe which is diminishing rapidly.
One funny example of how the Dollar has lost its status is Gisele Bundchen, she refuses to paid in US Dollars and only takes contracts in Euros. Her business manager says its because of "dollar uncertainty".
Comparing the Vietnam Era to today is irrelevant, the USA was far more powerful than any other country or bloc during that time despite the fact that the economy in absolute terms was weak in those days. These days the world is more multipolar, it was relatively easy for the US to pull out of Vietnam and come back strong, because there was far more pro US sentiment in those days as the US was a hedge against the Soviets.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]
Comparing the Vietnam Era to today is irrelevant, the USA was far more powerful than any other country or bloc during that time despite the fact that the economy in absolute terms was weak in those days.[/QUOTE]
The economy throughout the world, but particularly in the US, was FAR better in absolute terms during the Vietnam era than it is today, CBGB.
[QUOTE=DJ FourMoney]Most of it is the fact that China has way too many uneducated and unskilled labor. The story is the same with India. You really think these nations with large populations are all of a sudden going to leapfrog the US???[/QUOTE]
China'a rampant development can't be ignored, neither India's. Both have a well educated ambitious middle class of approx. 200 million. Entire population of the USA is 300 millions (EU 460 millions).
Especially China is eager to become an economic, strategic and political powerhouse. Goals like sending manned mission to the moon in 15 years (first Chinese lunar probe was launched two weeks ago), building world's largest dam (completed), sustained growth etc.
I would also be cautious about dismissing India, which is well known for its highly skilled IT sector. Current development in India allows many Indian engineers to stay there, and still make relatively good money. And this is only the beginning. Did you know that western corporations expand mostly in East and not home in EU or N. America?
[QUOTE=DJ FourMoney]To be honest sooner or later the changes that are needed to keep America on top will be made. The last time the Republican party was in power during a war (WWI), we got The Great Depression. When policy was changed by FDR, the middle class exploded and kept progressive presidents in POWER despite being killed off (Kennedy).[/QUOTE]
What makes you think American decision makers prefer to wait? And why not rather sooner than later?
Truth is that old concepts can't be applied to new world order. No changes are made because your leaders either can't agree on what to do, or don't have a fix-it-all solution. Simple as that.
Main problems, roughly: A comfortable middle class living beyond its means, expensive foreign policy (interventions overseas), and competition from emerging markets (cheap import from China and India).
How do you tell your voters, to work more for less?
How do you get out of Iraq and Afghanistan without losing your face?
How do you make China to devalue its currency (which is essential for the USA)?
How do you save the U.S dollar from becoming a "peso"?
[QUOTE=DJ FourMoney]When we didn't have strong progressive candidates (Not everything Nixon did was BAD, but....) something happen negatively and because of that we didn't get any real change until Carter.[/QUOTE]
And who are these "strong progressive candidates" today? Hillary, Obama, or the other camp, busy arguing over who's more conservative than just conservative?
[QUOTE=DJ FourMoney]All we have to do is right the ship and we'll dominate because unlike those places that are usually mentioned as the next "power" in the world do not have the [b]diversity[/b] which is our strength.
The EU has in-fighting, different cultures and welfare to other countries. It will take a LONG time and they'll need the UK on board to even THINK about replacing the US as a dominating force.[/QUOTE]
You have to make up your mind on diversity. Either it's a strenght or weakness, you can't have both. EU is very diversified, but to a lesser extent than the USA, in my opinion.
India not diversified? The constitution grants official status to 22 languages, just an example.
Also, if we assume diversity being such a strength, then why have all American presidents been white Anglo-Saxon Protestant Christian males, with Kennedy as the only 'deviant' (Catholic)?
Isn't it funny how you express scepticism towards EU, and simultaneously have unproportional respect for the UK? This reminds me of the pre-Euro era, when basically nobody in the USA believed in EU integration nor euro currency. It didn't take long to drastically change people's mind, did it?
Besides, wouldn't it be wise to elaborate on why EU wouldn't be able to bring integration process further without the UK, instead of bringing totally unsupported (and incorrect) statements into the debate?
Everyone, both in corporate and political world, knows that you have to grow and merge to get bigger and stronger. Small nations simply don't count, and the UK leaders know it. What credible altervatives are there for the UK? Please, tell me.
Brits, sorry, the English, are the most EU sceptic nation among EU members and it's beyond my imagination why they haven't been kicked out yet. Either you want to build the organization you are member of, or you step aside. Well, here comes the tricky part.
On one hand you have a population which is obsessed with Germany (they bombed London and are #1 in EU, what?!) and France (perpetual rival and best mate with Germany), and on the other you are obliged to defend democracy and let people have their say. Today, if the government would let people vote, they most likely wouldn't vote in favour of EU membership, euro currency or whatever, just for the sake of it - But who knows, once you actually stand there and decide your own future. Tony Blair [url=http://politics.guardian.co.uk/eu/story/0,,2058758,00.html]used tricks[/url] to avoid referendum and today Gordon Brown is doing [url=http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9726707]everything he can[/url], not to let people have their say. God forbid, the mob could vote in "wrong" direction, and we (the UK government) don't want this to happend, do we? After all, we do 70% of our trade with EU... just to start with...
The biggest problem in the US is IMO the car culture. That's what causes the enormous amounts of waste and inefficiency which is preventing us from competing in a global marketplace. It also right now keeps us face down sucking on the oil titty and we can't budge.
[QUOTE=Bango Cheito]The biggest problem in the US is IMO the car culture. That's what causes the enormous amounts of waste and inefficiency which is preventing us from competing in a global marketplace. It also right now keeps us face down sucking on the oil titty and we can't budge.[/QUOTE]
Ignore BC constant beating of the "I hate cars" drum. He isn't a car guy could never understand. It fine he doesn't have one, there others like YOU in the US which is fine, ride your bikes I don't care I don't drive in the bike lane you have nothing to worry about.
There is movement and people want change. Its hard to do when largely the mass media isn't covering this coming change.
Leu -
I agree with your comments and yes I was making general statements and using opinion, I have not done of ton of research.
Yes some of our leaders cannot agree on many infrastructure policies but the fact remains that Carter had us on a road to oil independence and Regan took down the solar panels off the White House and Bush Sr had them destroyed.
Bushies are connected to big oil, duh they are big oil. So as BC would like to say they rather have us sucking on the oil titty, it ensures maximum profit with light crude reaching almost $100 a barrel.
I believe major change will happen before we hit rock bottom. Clinton and Obama may be leading opinion polls but at the grassroots level its a different tune. Myself I am about to endorse Edwards but mostly because he has a better chance than Kucinich has at getting the nomination.
Yes Obama and Hilary seem to be Republican "Light" as the term goes. As they included HMO's in their health care reform plans (so has Edwards for that matter) but what really needs to happen is campaign reform which will help get the right people into the house ans senate and in-turn return us to how the forefathers wanted this country to run with a system of checks and balances. Not PERFECT but when it runs right its better than anybody else's idea.
How do you tell your voters, to work more for less?
[i]Work more for less? I work less and make about the same...[/i]
Give me free health care and readjust the tax system pre-Regan era and you'll solve most of that question. Both could happen...
How do you get out of Iraq and Afghanistan without losing your face?
[i]Who's worry about saving face? We already have "egg" on out faces. The fact is we Won the war part, the occupation is what is gone horribly wrong.[/i]
Just pull out and let them destroy themselves if that's what they want...Its not like the middle east is ever going to be tourist friendly area anyway.
How do you make China to devalue its currency (which is essential for the USA)?
[i]I am not an economist however as I understand it, we had a system of tarfits and such for 100 years that protected our markets until largely the Republicans looking out for their big business buddies wanted to go into cheaper labor, allow illegals into the job market and weaken US unionized labor. Well 30 years later and the only Union left with any teeth is the UAW. I worked for 2 companies that strongly discourage you to NOT join Unions or talk to Union reps or you'll loose your job on the spot.
Change a few things around and get a handle on immigration and the dollar would automatically be stronger than China's currency devaluing it instantly. Surprise however is that no matter how much stuff Walmart sells, the stuff coming out of China is largely JUNK, because companies are interested in maximum profit along with having super cheap labor.[/i]
How do you save the U.S dollar from becoming a "peso"?
Won't happen, many Americans have had it up to _____ with Mexicans and other groups form Central America. Prosecute the companies that hire these people and part of your problem is solved. Socially I don't have an answer to the many jobs MANY Americans won't do regardless of the money involved. There are image stigmas attached to alot of these careers and for men many women won't accept being married to -
Factory Worker
Shuttle Bus Driver
Long Haul Truck Driver
Farm Worker
Food Plant Production Worker
How many jobs is that in the US??? and I only listed a couple of them.
I was a Long Haul Trucker, Oh yeah I had to beat women off me, are you kidding???
As long as they feel the need to brag about the career of their husbands, the neighborhoods they live in and the cars they drive, it will force many men to shun such employment. I was listening to a radio show on Sirius last Saturday about this subject and he was like I have to hire illegals because I can't get the crank users to stop using long enough to pass a drug test and on top of that, many people won't work graveyard shifts and often back out when he needs people and this is Montana, not Los Angeles!
To be honest I am not worried about that very much because if he was paying $50,000 a year to drive a Shuttle to the Airport, I am not living in Montana to work for him.
I have standards!
Cars are the MAJOR part of the problem but the problem in and of itself is waste and inefficiency. Cars are INCREDIBLY wasteful and the US and Canada are just about the only countries on Earth who abuse them to such an extent that we do. It is IMPOSSIBLE for any society to have the car as the major mode of transportation and be able to sustain it over the long term. It just uses too goddamn much energy. Takes up too much space. Causes too much traffic and accidents. Period. Even if cars ran on air they'd be a dumb idea as personal transport, especially in big cities where traffic can easily get unbearable.
But for some other examples, look at the way we waste paper products. And Americans have the fucking NERVE to ***** about in other countries when they get a hot dog and are handed two napkins instead of the NOVEL's worth that everybody takes.
But don't let me stop there, since I can only think about cars. Do you realize how much energy we waste by washing our clothes in hot water and taking hot showers? Both of these are under most normal circumstances completely necessary and wasteful and maybe even UNHEALTHY. People get all sorts of diseases from the shit that breeds in hot water tanks, not to mention the damage done to your skin, immune system etc. Washing clothes in hot water shortens their life exponentially. Once again, this is almost exclusively and American/Canadian phenomenon. Almost ALL the rest of the world gets by with cold water, perhaps they have a little heater that will warm the water up a little for taking a shower.
I could also get started on agribusiness and the food supply but that would be a rant that could go on for days on end almost.
If and when a government is willing to tackle THESE problems, America will start to get better again, and start experiencing REAL growth instead of just fake credit-based "growth" financed by the Japanese and Chinese and Arabs. Until then we will continue to slide. I think many countries will have surpassed us as world powers by the time we finally wake the fuck up.
And I havent even touched the more pressing issues of erosion of civil liberties etc.
[QUOTE=Bango Cheito]Cars are the MAJOR part of the problem but the problem in and of itself is waste and inefficiency. Cars are INCREDIBLY wasteful and the US and Canada are just about the only countries on Earth who abuse them to such an extent that we do. It is IMPOSSIBLE for any society to have the car as the major mode of transportation and be able to sustain it over the long term. It just uses too goddamn much energy. Takes up too much space. Causes too much traffic and accidents. Period. Even if cars ran on air they'd be a dumb idea as personal transport, especially in big cities where traffic can easily get unbearable.
But for some other examples, look at the way we waste paper products. And Americans have the fucking NERVE to ***** about in other countries when they get a hot dog and are handed two napkins instead of the NOVEL's worth that everybody takes.
But don't let me stop there, since I can only think about cars. Do you realize how much energy we waste by washing our clothes in hot water and taking hot showers? Both of these are under most normal circumstances completely necessary and wasteful and maybe even UNHEALTHY. People get all sorts of diseases from the shit that breeds in hot water tanks, not to mention the damage done to your skin, immune system etc. Washing clothes in hot water shortens their life exponentially. Once again, this is almost exclusively and American/Canadian phenomenon. Almost ALL the rest of the world gets by with cold water, perhaps they have a little heater that will warm the water up a little for taking a shower.
I could also get started on agribusiness and the food supply but that would be a rant that could go on for days on end almost.
If and when a government is willing to tackle THESE problems, America will start to get better again, and start experiencing REAL growth instead of just fake credit-based "growth" financed by the Japanese and Chinese and Arabs. Until then we will continue to slide. I think many countries will have surpassed us as world powers by the time we finally wake the fuck up.
And I havent even touched the more pressing issues of erosion of civil liberties etc.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you on the bases that we have REAL problems.
Cars are a big issue, however you can change what the cars run on, releasing us from outsourcing our oil reserves and E85 is cleaner burning and made locally. Cellulosic Ethanol is part of a overall answer, along with Solar, renewable energies, etc, etc.
I would run my own car on E85 and I already have the forms and approval from the Feds to make my own. However I can't just setup boilers and shhh at the house just yet. When I can and when I switch all the cars at home to run on E85 I am activity doing my part and I will have fun at the same time. I will re-tune all the cars to run on E85 or even E100 and they'll make more power and get back some of the energy lost which will improve mileage. It will make my car faster because its turbocharged, I can run more boost :)
I want to build a house that runs on 90% Solar power and the rest cheap for the west coast Natural Gas and there are affordable ways to do this and not pay $400,000 for a shack in South Central LA like I saw on "Flip That House" on TLC yesterday. My option would be CHEAP if DONE CORRECTLY and cost less overall.
I support public transportation and would use it, if we had anything that looked like London's Underground or Germany's Die Bahn system.
So don't think I just wanna pollute and continue down the same path because its the most convenient. I can blend my lifestyle with conservation without turning my life upside-down.
On the Political side, all I can really do is vote and bug my local rep. When people change how things are run in Washington then my single vote will carry more weight than it does now.
Yes I am concerned about my civil liberties and a member of several newsgroups that keep track of things.
Oh well, I just like my car and I am not like the many other people that should use public transportation but don't. In reality those people really don't need a car. My sister is doing just fine without one in New York....
The US Dollar is falling because of Mexican immigrants??? Give me a break, the Dollar is falling because of the excessive amount of debt that individual Americans and the government have created over the past 30 years. It also has to do with America spending more than they produce. If you wanted to single out a country for the Dollar's fall, look at China, they have the largest reserves of US dollars on the planet, and are slowly selling them off. Of course if they dumped it the dollar would collapse and they would screw themselves, but they are slowly getting out of the dollar and diversifying, as are all the OPEC countries.
India and China now produce more scientists and engineers than the US, even in the US the smartest students at the universities often come from Asian backgrounds. Many of these international students often get asked to go home once they finish, so their education and training benefit their home countries instead of the US. Every MAJOR US AND EUROPEAN CORPORATION has substantial operations in both countries.
The USA will still be a well off country if it plays its cards well but global competition is heating up.
The UK is the most anti EU nation, its an impediment to the EU more than a benefit. If it wasn't for the UK, the EU would have been integrated much sooner.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]The US Dollar is falling because of Mexican immigrants??? Give me a break, the Dollar is falling because of the excessive amount of debt that individual Americans and the government have created over the past 30 years. It also has to do with America spending more than they produce. If you wanted to single out a country for the Dollar's fall, look at China, they have the largest reserves of US dollars on the planet, and are slowly selling them off. Of course if they dumped it the dollar would collapse and they would screw themselves, but they are slowly getting out of the dollar and diversifying, as are all the OPEC countries.
India and China now produce more scientists and engineers than the US, even in the US the smartest students at the universities often come from Asian backgrounds. Many of these international students often get asked to go home once they finish, so their education and training benefit their home countries instead of the US. Every MAJOR US AND EUROPEAN CORPORATION has substantial operations in both countries.
The USA will still be a well off country if it plays its cards well but global competition is heating up.
The UK is the most anti EU nation, its an impediment to the EU more than a benefit. If it wasn't for the UK, the EU would have been integrated much sooner.[/QUOTE]
Put as back to pre-Regan Taxes
Give Us Univerisal Health Care
Put us back on the renewable energy path that Carter put us on in 1980
Real Election Reform
Put Progressives in Power
99% of the problems caused by the Republican party in the last 30 years would put as right back to where we were as the Number 1 Nation in the World.
We might not ever return to the biggest exporter of goods, but several things made in America are still the best products in the world. Heath Care for everybody will allow our companies to compete globally at the same level other industrial countries compete at.
Its not too late to turn things around and Mexico is not our problem. Its how Mexicans run their country. Its small and medium sized businesses hiring known illegal workers knowing they will work for less. As I said before I don't know what to say about the jobs that many Americans won't take because they are not "status" jobs or bite into their "personal" time too much. Documented workers will take those jobs, but you can't allow people to cross the broader knowing they can get a job, which is why so many come cross to start with.
All of our problems are solvable, we just have to want to solve them.
[QUOTE=DJ FourMoney]All of our problems are solvable, we just have to want to solve them.[/QUOTE]
Hear Hear, DJ.
But it won't be easy - last time it took a Depression and a LOT of dead commoners before the rulers allowed even a tiny move to the left in america. Those who own us will not give up that control without a fight.
ANY nation could be the #1 nation on Earth if it just had the will to be so. The question is do we really WANT to change? We have become entrenched in our old ways. I'd like to THINK we can get our shit together soon before there are big consequences but we haven't done a damn thing in the right direction in the past 10 years.
If you want the immigrants to go away, GRANT AMNESTY. You'd lose half a million illegals from this country overnight. I can guarantee that, I'd bet my life on it. Many aren't doing well here and only stay because of fear of burning their bridges.
[QUOTE=Bango Cheito]ANY nation could be the #1 nation on Earth if it just had the will to be so. The question is do we really WANT to change? We have become entrenched in our old ways. I'd like to THINK we can get our shit together soon before there are big consequences but we haven't done a damn thing in the right direction in the past 10 years.
If you want the immigrants to go away, GRANT AMNESTY. You'd lose half a million illegals from this country overnight. I can guarantee that, I'd bet my life on it. Many aren't doing well here and only stay because of fear of burning their bridges.[/QUOTE]
We can do it Bango!
Just don't let the media sell you the bill of goods known as Hilary Clinton or OBama. Sure it would be NICE to have a Woman or a Black president, but not these two and not Obama until he won't waffle when it suits him.
Elect Cindy Sheehan, she'll be much better as House Speaker than Nancy Pelosi for example. That's putting a Progressive in place of a corp bought Democrat.
Any Dem that voted to give more money for the war deserves to loose his or her seat! Pelosi for not calling for Cheney's and Bush's head needs to come back home so we can tar and feather her!
I demand CHANGE, 52% of Americans demand CHANGE. It starts with somebody growing BALLS and impeach these assholes.
I thought majority ruled????
52% is MAJORITY, hello!
If I can't have Space Kaddet Dennis Kucinich, then I'll take Corp America's Worst Nightmare - John Edwards
Majority has NEVER ruled here. This is a republican democracy, in some ways that is very fortunate, because otherwise the Civil Rights Act would never have passed and your black ass would still be living under Jim Crow!
At any rate you could poll and poll till you're blue in the face, every poll shows different results. In a country of 300 million people the 'will of the people' on complex issues like the war is pretty ambiguous, not to mention it has been known to shift based on what the media is telling them.
I don't think Joe Q. Average has the brains OR the balls to do what is necessary to turn this country around either. Which is why we have a republican democracy to begin with. Only a tiny minority of people have the capacity or the inclination to even begin to see the big picture. And unfortunately for us, it looks like none of those people are anywhere near the spheres of power in this country!!
Get real, the USA is heading into history's dustbin, the times of prosperity are coming to an end. A new era is approaching, America's unquestioned economic dominance is already in question with a weakening dollar and stronger growth in Europe and Asia. When I was in the States, I was paying rent, in debt. I live in Australia where I am a homeowner and self employed, the global economy has changed the way things are done, you don't need to live in the USA to prosper any more.
The immigrant situation in the USA is not roses and wine, not by any stretch of the imagination. I knew people who were prospering in their home countries who wound up in the poorhouse in the USA. I recall one family from the UK, the wife had to sell jewelry to buy food for the kids because her husband's business was failing.
The healthcare industry is a sure fire way to make a living in the US but other industries are suffering.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]Get real, the USA is heading into history's dustbin, the times of prosperity are coming to an end. A new era is approaching, America's unquestioned economic dominance is already in question with a weakening dollar and stronger growth in Europe and Asia. When I was in the States, I was paying rent, in debt. I live in Australia where I am a homeowner and self employed, the global economy has changed the way things are done, you don't need to live in the USA to prosper any more.
The immigrant situation in the USA is not roses and wine, not by any stretch of the imagination. I knew people who were prospering in their home countries who wound up in the poorhouse in the USA. I recall one family from the UK, the wife had to sell jewelry to buy food for the kids because her husband's business was failing.
The healthcare industry is a sure fire way to make a living in the US but other industries are suffering.[/QUOTE]
At times I agree that all is lost and there is no hope in improving.
I just believe that we can keep the idiots at bay for at least a little while...
The Government's response to Katrina two years ago is the biggest example of its indifference to the everyday American. 800,000 people wound up homeless overnight and the government largely turned their backs to them, this happens in the richest country in the world? And I am sure race played a role in it. Contrast this with the California wildfires that affected mostly rich communities.
[QUOTE=Bango Cheito]ANY nation could be the #1 nation on Earth if it just had the will to be so. The question is do we really WANT to change? We have become entrenched in our old ways. I'd like to THINK we can get our shit together soon before there are big consequences but we haven't done a damn thing in the right direction in the past 10 years.
If you want the immigrants to go away, GRANT AMNESTY. You'd lose half a million illegals from this country overnight. I can guarantee that, I'd bet my life on it. Many aren't doing well here and only stay because of fear of burning their bridges.[/QUOTE]Most illegal will not stay here if you give them amnesty. American immigration system assume every visitor want to stay in usa permentantly and visitor must prove that he or she do not immgration intent. Practically, it is no chance to get a visa for normal people. I am sure people who want get visa for his girl friend get frustrated experience. Thus mexican who want work some month in US and return home has to come illegal and stay here forever. American man has harder time to bring his girl friend to visit here comparing to european country. American man should lobby congress that every woman under 35 should come US without visa and than amreican woman has to change her ***** atitude.
[QUOTE=Travel1000]Most illegal will not stay here if you give them amnesty. American immigration system assume every visitor want to stay in usa permentantly and visitor must prove that he or she do not immgration intent. Practically, it is no chance to get a visa for normal people. I am sure people who want get visa for his girl friend get frustrated experience. Thus mexican who want work some month in US and return home has to come illegal and stay here forever. American man has harder time to bring his girl friend to visit here comparing to european country. American man should lobby congress that every woman under 35 should come US without visa and than amreican woman has to change her ***** atitude.[/QUOTE]
Here, Here!
Some competition would do them some good, but ain't that a rant for the American Women board? lol
I have run into a few FSU girls that think the US has regressed enough for them to give second thoughts to relocating here and I don't blame them.
Stories of them working shiety jobs I am sure don't help....
According to our [i]Popularity Contest[/i] the "Status Que" candidates finished 1st and 2nd again, after Kuinich quit, Edwards is the next man to get marginalized by the media. That is unless you seek out Left leaning channels on the net and PBS....
I am hoping for a brokered convention, that is where we need to change the discussion on the issues that mater most...
Giuliani's campaign is totally getting trashed, it will probably be McCain versus Obama or Clinton this November. I think the Democrats have a big advantage, a lot of people just do not want to see another George W in the White House. The next ten to fifteen years are going to see an erosion of US influence around the world, and a more multipolar planet, I think the US will still be a well off country but the dominant position that we enjoy will be a thing of the past, the US will have serious competition economically and eventually militarily as well, since military power follows economic strength. The EU, China, and India are coming on strong as potential Superpower competitors. The EU could definitely become one, if Britain leaves or gets kicked out of the EU, it has been the block to European integration since the end of the last World War. China is on its way, India is still has a very long road to trek but will become a major player in the world in our lifetimes.
As long as Giuliani does not become president, I think things should be okay, at least we Americans will be able to go to strip clubs and buy hot dogs from carts, something that was taken away from New Yorkers when he was mayor.
A lot of those EE girls would rather live in the EU, even though immigration is tight on the continent it is nowhere near as anti-immigrant as the US these days. The Euro continues to gain strength as a currency, and it will come to the point where it surpasses the US Dollar as the currency of choice around the planet.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]Giuliani's campaign is totally getting trashed, it will probably be McCain versus Obama or Clinton this November. [/QUOTE]
My boy Ron Paul probably doesn't stand a chance either. He's too smart, sensible and realistic to be president.
Either way it goes, McCain, Clinton or Obama, we seem to be in for another rough 4 years.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]Giuliani's campaign is totally getting trashed, it will probably be McCain versus Obama or Clinton this November. I think the Democrats have a big advantage, a lot of people just do not want to see another George W in the White House. The next ten to fifteen years are going to see an erosion of US influence around the world, and a more multipolar planet, I think the US will still be a well off country but the dominant position that we enjoy will be a thing of the past, the US will have serious competition economically and eventually militarily as well, since military power follows economic strength. The EU, China, and India are coming on strong as potential Superpower competitors. The EU could definitely become one, if Britain leaves or gets kicked out of the EU, it has been the block to European integration since the end of the last World War. China is on its way, India is still has a very long road to trek but will become a major player in the world in our lifetimes.
As long as Giuliani does not become president, I think things should be okay, at least we Americans will be able to go to strip clubs and buy hot dogs from carts, something that was taken away from New Yorkers when he was mayor.
A lot of those EE girls would rather live in the EU, even though immigration is tight on the continent it is nowhere near as anti-immigrant as the US these days. The Euro continues to gain strength as a currency, and it will come to the point where it surpasses the US Dollar as the currency of choice around the planet.[/QUOTE]
Check over your notes again. The number of US dollars that are used in forex has been a constant since the Euro was introduced. See this link (in PDF): [url]http://www.ecb.int/pub/pdf/scpops/ecbocp43.pdf[/url]
The other thing to consider is that Switzerland has a world class currency, but it is not used significantly in a reserve capacity, and that is fine. People will still take Swiss Francs anywhere around the world. Even if the US was not able to have its cake and eat it too (that is to say financing its budget deficit with its own currency and earning money from seignorage), I don't think we would fall into the sea.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]Get real, the USA is heading into history's dustbin, the times of prosperity are coming to an end. A new era is approaching, America's unquestioned economic dominance is already in question with a weakening dollar and stronger growth in Europe and Asia. When I was in the States, I was paying rent, in debt. I live in Australia where I am a homeowner and self employed, the global economy has changed the way things are done, you don't need to live in the USA to prosper any more.
The immigrant situation in the USA is not roses and wine, not by any stretch of the imagination. I knew people who were prospering in their home countries who wound up in the poorhouse in the USA. I recall one family from the UK, the wife had to sell jewelry to buy food for the kids because her husband's business was failing.
The healthcare industry is a sure fire way to make a living in the US but other industries are suffering.[/QUOTE]It is not quite a simple as that. I have just been looking at some competitiveness rankings, and the US was #1 (this calculation was done by an organization OUTSIDE of the United States). [url]http://www.weforum.org/pdf/Global_Competitiveness_Reports/Reports/gcr_2007/gcr2007_rankings.pdf[/url]
I might also add that the United States has actually risen in competitiveness rankings after slipping in the last couple of years (but not leaving the top 10, and, I think, not even leaving the top 5)-- even with a currency that has not been doing so well on the forex markets. Note also that of the top 10 countries, only ONE is an Euro country. Quite a few of the Euro countries have actually slipped in the ranking--even with a currency that has been doing pretty well in the forex markets.
Was a necessary condition of prosperity EVER living in the United States?
The US currency is just an exchange rate phenomenon. The currency has been through some VERY WIDE swings in the last 30 years or so, but has always bounced back. (And don't forget the added bonus of being able to sell more things to the rest of the world when your currency is on a downswing.)
The other question that I have is what it means EVEN IF we didn't have a world class currency? Here is an interesting article about the abundant stupidity that is always going on in the land of my ancestors (Africa, I'm ashamed/ sorry to say). Those guys have actually had two common currencies (CFA Francs) even before the European Union did. They didn't take over the world JUST because several countries got on board and all use a common currency. It does not necessarily follow that the EU will take over the world for the same reason. It is no accident that the word Eurosclerosis exists in the English language.
Geetings everyone !!
I have been voting in every election since I was 18. I did my duty in the military and paid my taxes. No problems with the law either.
But no more.
What I have determined in the last half century, whether it is a Republican
or Democrat in office, things don't change. In fact, I believe the two parties
are really just one. One part is more conservative, one part more liberal.
But, just two sides of the same coin. Last man in office I have any respect
for is President Reagan. But that was a long time ago.
So yesterday, with great fanfare in my house, I tore up my absentee ballot
and threw it in the trash. My wife and elderly parents did the same thing
and so did a friend of mine. We declared our own independence day!
Plus, in two years I am moving out of country permanently, so they are not
going to get much tax money out of me anymore either.
I give the system the bird.
those are almost my plans exactly. what do we have to vote for anyway? they stand up there and tell us lies while brain-dead americans cheer them on. then when they get into office they don't do a damn thing but vote themselves a raise each year and give senseless speeches about how their decisions are best for everybody. i just wonder how much money has been kicked back to the current administration for all of these gigantic no-bid contracts.
The Euro is the currency that has reserve capability, the EU economy is actually larger than the US, and the ECB has the liquidity and clout to make the Euro the currency of choice. Watch for oil producing nations to switch sales to Euros, Iran and Russia already have plans for this, other nations will follow. Even Warren Buffet and Bill Gates gave negative comments for the future of the Greenback. Alan Greenspan himself hinted that the Euro would overshadow the Dollar in the near future. Anyone who keeps a significant amount of their wealth in US currency is going to be screwed over financially. The peak of US prosperity will always be the second half of the 20th Century, in those times the US really had no competition. Asia is changing the equation with almost limitless white and blue collar slave labor.
The biggest problem with the US is its dependence on debt, the US has used foreign nations to finance debt, many of these countries are no longer willing to finance our debt. The US has used shortcut after shortcut to making short term gains. Our last trump card, China, is now turning away from us, they happen to be the biggest financier of US debt.
As far as the election goes, I think people are still too upset with Bush for any Republican to be elected, its either Obama or Clinton, and I wouldn't be surprised if they run together in November.
Historians will look at the first decade of the new millenium as the end of Pax Americana, the next decade will see a more multipolar world order(the last time this existed there were two World Wars so its not going to be welcome change), eventually you will see an Asian dominated world by mid century.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]
As far as the election goes, I think people are still too upset with Bush for any Republican to be elected, its either Obama or Clinton, and I wouldn't be surprised if they run together in November.[/QUOTE]
As true as this may be it is like really depressing. My plans of moving out of the USA may go into overdrive if this happens.
[QUOTE=Beavis]As true as this may be it is like really depressing. My plans of moving out of the USA may go into overdrive if this happens.[/QUOTE]
Democrats in power means you are leaving the country... does that mean I can come back? )))
Democrats and Republicans are one and the same, the Dems maybe a bit more liberal with regards to certain special interests, but historically they have supported an ultra aggressive foreign policy. Vietnam started under JFK, and if you compared JFK to Bush today, JFK might have nuked the entire Mideast, he was liberal for someone in the 60's but not today.
Either way, America boils down to one thing, money. Making money has been the attraction of people worldwide to the USA, the worry now is that the American dollar is destined to collapse, and will bring down the USA's economy and its status in the near future. The Dollar has never went through such a severe devaluation over the past few years in decades past, the last time a dollar devaluation occured in the early 90's it only lost about 15 to 20 percent of its value, its lost nearly 60 percent of its value against the Euro in this recent rout, and is sinking against the Yen, Aussie and Canadian Dollar, and the Swiss Franc, even the Real. The Chinese have propped up the Dollar for several years in order to devalue the Yuan, to keep Chinese exports cheap, now the Chinese are going to move away from the Dollar in the near future, unpegging the yuan from the greenback, when that happens the yuan will go into the ionosphere while the US Dollar plummets into green toilet paper.
You honestly think people come to the US for freedom?? We have the highest incarceration rate on the planet. Even the average Chinese citizen has one fourth the chance of an average American of going to jail, an American is four times more likely to be locked up than a Chinese person!!! If you are a minority, you can forget about civil rights, most police in every major city engage in aggressive racial profiling, this was especially evident in New York, my hometown, where you would see massive numbers of police in black neighborhoods but in other areas they would be few in number. Our treatment of immigrants is nothing short of horrible, Canada and Australia are far more immigrant friendly than the US. Money and the ability to get rich or well to do is what glues America together more than anything else, and sadly this ability is going to be greatly reduced in the coming years once the Dollar finally collapses.
[QUOTE=Doctor_Skank]Democrats in power means you are leaving the country... does that mean I can come back? )))[/QUOTE]
Why does it matter which party gets elected? They are both a band of crooks and nothing else. Obama and Hillary together, one can just shudder at the thought. Neither wil do anything to help the working man. The Dems will raise taxes to give to the people who have made welfare a way of life while the republicans will give tax breaks to huge corporations to export your job. If you are in the group of people who make between 30K to 200K you have no direction to turn, your screwed either way.
The UK just passed the US in standard of living, the average income for a citizen of the UK is now higher than for the average American. Germany and France are also coming in real close. These countries within five years will have a much higher standard of living than the US, and you can blame the devaluing dollar for this, the government saying it boosts exports is nonsense, the trade deficit has gotten bigger not smaller. The US is now 6th or 7th place in terms of nominal GDP, in 1999, it was number 2 with only Barbados being higher. A major currency analyst sees the US per capita rank dipping to 30th place in 5 to 10 years, but within 5 years it will definitely not be listed among the top ten countries in the world in terms of standard of living.
If America is screwed there is always Canada.
I have to agree with Beavis, the Democrats and Republicans are equally bad. And if you think if Al Gore was in office instead of George W, there would be no Iraq War, think again, his Zionist VP Lieberman would have guaranteed an invasion, maybe even one against Iran too, but on that note Iran is not going to be attacked, the next President will not do anything about Iran either. That country is going nuclear because of Russia, and will play a role in the USA's decline in the world, the EU and China will as well.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]. The Dollar has never went through such a severe devaluation over the past few years in decades past, the last time a dollar devaluation occured in the early 90's it only lost about 15 to 20 percent of its value, its lost nearly 60 percent of its value against the Euro in this recent rout, and is sinking against the Yen, Aussie and Canadian Dollar, and the Swiss Franc, even the Real. .[/QUOTE]
The dollar was worth about 3.75 German marks in 1970 and by 1980 it was worth about 1.75. From there it went back up to 3.40 by 1985 and down to about 1.60 in 1988.
The dollar gets around.
The Deutsche Mark never had the liquidity of the Euro, there are more Euros in circulation now than US dollars. The Euro is also becoming a reserve currency alternative, the Mark never had this status. The other thing is that this time around the Dollar is declining against multiple currencies. Another pattern to watch for is the percent of reserves in one currency or another, the Euro has been increasing steadily since it has been introduced.
China is also a big factor in where the Dollar will go these days, China was a non factor in those time periods that you had mentioned unlike now when their economy could actually become bigger than the US's in the near future. I don't recall a point in history where a foreign government had so much control over the Greenback, Mr. Paulson of the Treasury ran off to China for some kind of meeting with the Chinese last year, not a good sign.
The US share of global wealth was much bigger in those periods as well compared to today. Again Asia is going to be a factor in this. Foreign debt today is massive and much larger in real terms than in those time periods as well.
You were making one argument and now you are making different one. You said it had "never" behaved this way and I was just observing that it has, more than once. The dollar behaved the same way against all other major currencies during those time frames. Yen. Pound. The arguments you are making were made in the 1980's, except the crux was Japan, not China.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]The Deutsche Mark never had the liquidity of the Euro, there are more Euros in circulation now than US dollars. The Euro is also becoming a reserve currency alternative, the Mark never had this status. The other thing is that this time around the Dollar is declining against multiple currencies. Another pattern to watch for is the percent of reserves in one currency or another, the Euro has been increasing steadily since it has been introduced.
China is also a big factor in where the Dollar will go these days, China was a non factor in those time periods that you had mentioned unlike now when their economy could actually become bigger than the US's in the near future. I don't recall a point in history where a foreign government had so much control over the Greenback, Mr. Paulson of the Treasury ran off to China for some kind of meeting with the Chinese last year, not a good sign.
The US share of global wealth was much bigger in those periods as well compared to today. Again Asia is going to be a factor in this. Foreign debt today is massive and much larger in real terms than in those time periods as well.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]And if you think if Al Gore was in office instead of George W, there would be no Iraq War, think again...[/QUOTE]
Good point. If you had been asked in 2000 which of the two - Gore or Bush - would be more likely to involve the US in a war in Iraq a lot of people probably would have said Gore, since Bush took positions which tended to be anti-internationalist and, of course, the Clinton/Gore administration had bombed Iraq at least a couple of times.
the deutsche mark only accounted for about 1-2 percent of currency reserves even at its peak. the euro counts for 25 percent of world currency reserves(the us dollar is 65 percent and it used to be 85 percent in the late 90's) and that number is increasing steadily. japan never had the ability to surpass the us, that was 80's paranoia, japan is a country the size of california with less than half the population. china is a country larger than the us, with five times the population and the fastest growing economy on the planet, its currency is grossly undervalued(so a cheap currency can be a major advantage for an exporter at least), if the yuan was not artificially devalued, the chinese economy would be nearly 9 trillion us, its right now slightly larger than germany's in nominal terms. the european union is another major world contender, with 430 million people and a total economy that is worth 15 trillion us, its actually larger than the us economy, still only 12 countries use the euro, but more of the new states will adopt the currency in the near future. oil producing countries are also looking to sell oil for euros instead of dollars, that would have serious ramifications for the usa's ability to finance easy debt through petrodollars(some people think this was the real reason behind iraq as saddam sold oil for euros in one transaction). the yen and the mark were never credible competitors to the dollar but the euro is a real competitor, these days there is massive foreign buying of us companies, goods, real estate, might sound good but in reality it is a way of losing autonomy to foreign entities.
the federal reserve is also playing with fire, rapidly increasing the money supply and reducing interest rates to stimulate the economy, while this may speed up the economy in the short run, it will continue to put downward pressure on the dollar.
regardless, in the future the us will lose its independence to the global economy, that does not look good to me. the thing that made america great was that we were able to keep the world at a comfortable distance, depending upon ourselves. but as i said the us will still be a prosperous country but not the the sole economic power in the world, that status did earn us some advantages.
you started out making a historical claim "it's never happened before" and now you are saying what has happened before is not significant.
based on your reasoning, you could argue the us should dump it's position as the global currency of choice, since american growth has been lackluster since assuming that role. instead, we should take a lesson from the chinese playbook and work to keep the buck artificially low.
[quote=cbgbconnisur]the deutsche mark only accounted for about 1-2 percent of currency reserves even at its peak. the euro counts for 25 percent of world currency reserves(the us dollar is 65 percent and it used to be 85 percent in the late 90's) and that number is increasing steadily. japan never had the ability to surpass the us, that was 80's paranoia, japan is a country the size of california with less than half the population. china is a country larger than the us, with five times the population and the fastest growing economy on the planet, its currency is grossly undervalued(so a cheap currency can be a major advantage for an exporter at least), if the yuan was not artificially devalued, the chinese economy would be nearly 9 trillion us, its right now slightly larger than germany's in nominal terms. the european union is another major world contender, with 430 million people and a total economy that is worth 15 trillion us, its actually larger than the us economy, still only 12 countries use the euro, but more of the new states will adopt the currency in the near future. oil producing countries are also looking to sell oil for euros instead of dollars, that would have serious ramifications for the usa's ability to finance easy debt through petrodollars(some people think this was the real reason behind iraq as saddam sold oil for euros in one transaction). the yen and the mark were never credible competitors to the dollar but the euro is a real competitor, these days there is massive foreign buying of us companies, goods, real estate, might sound good but in reality it is a way of losing autonomy to foreign entities.
the federal reserve is also playing with fire, rapidly increasing the money supply and reducing interest rates to stimulate the economy, while this may speed up the economy in the short run, it will continue to put downward pressure on the dollar.
regardless, in the future the us will lose its independence to the global economy, that does not look good to me. the thing that made america great was that we were able to keep the world at a comfortable distance, depending upon ourselves. but as i said the us will still be a prosperous country but not the the sole economic power in the world, that status did earn us some advantages.[/quote]
The Chinese playbook would not work well for America, we are a society that loves to consume, the Chinese like to produce, and I think with the Euro, this is the first genuine threat to American prosperity in history, I was wrong for assuming this recent devaluation of the Dollar did not happen before, thanks for the correction, but we have not seen another currency take up such a significant percent of world currency reserves since the British Pound in the 1960's, the Euro accounts for at least 25 percent of world currency reserves in a matter of only six years. For much of the time period that you mentioned the dollar fluctuations, the US Dollar was the dominant reserve currency and did not have a single major competitor, most of the other international currencies such as the Mark, Yen, and Pound accounted for no more than 1 to 2 percent of world reserves each. The fact that the Euro now accounts for one fourth of world central bank reserves is very significant, and that percent will continue to grow as more of the newer EU states begin to adopt the Euro. Oil producing nations like Russia and Venezuela sell their oil for Euros, I am predicting that OPECs stance regarding selling oil for Euros is a question of when and not if, when this happens the advantages of the petrodollar will be history.
The other interesting note is that during the 1970 to the early 1990's the US per capita GDP was 25 to 50 percent higher than the UK, Germany, France, and Japan. Today the UK just passed us, France and Germany are both coming close to passing us in per capita output as the Euro continues to appreciate in value.
The Euro is definitely having a significant effect on shifting the balance of the world economy, if people like Greenspan and Buffet are talking about it, I would definitely believe it.
One other note is that I keep hearing reporters on CNBC and CNN mention the ECB now in addition to the Federal Reserve in their economic commentary, that is also significant because they attribute serious significance to the ECB.
[QUOTE=Jelly Donut]Good point. If you had been asked in 2000 which of the two - Gore or Bush - would be more likely to involve the US in a war in Iraq a lot of people probably would have said Gore, since Bush took positions which tended to be anti-internationalist and, of course, the Clinton/Gore administration had bombed Iraq at least a couple of times.[/QUOTE]
Actually with no "Chicken Hawks" in the Executive Branch, you actually might have had an effort to rebuild Iraq after we bombed the shiet out of it. But honestly Gore had no designs of being a "War Time President" and we might not have gone into Iraq, but be knee deep in the bull over in Afghanistan which has gotten progressively worst as well.
In all honestly there's no way too tell and our [i]Military Industrial Complex[/i] while evil in a sense is no where NEAR as evil as Multinational companies like Chevon, Exxon-Mobil, Shell and BP; that pay African nations to bump off their own people while they pollute the skyies and swindle people out of land, resources and money.
Exxon-Mobil pays the media MILLIONS to debunk any talk of global warming.
You have to give these morons some credit though, they have fought this war(s) with an all volunteer military force, while playing, "Hey look what's in my left hand and not what's in my right hand".
Said somebody said on a show I was watching on Link TV;
The internet is not the answer to get the message out of the crimes of this administration. Those that are intelligent enough to use Google effectively can find the truth, its everywhere. Its those too lazy to get up from the couch while watching American Idol and turn to Fox News to get their dose of "Fair and Balanced" news.
Those that listen to Micheal Savage, Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reily are seriously out to lunch.
Its "THOSE" people you need to get informed
Luckily they only make up about 30% of Americans and as long as we have high voter turnout (like we have had thus far) we can cancel those numb-nuts out.
Um the military industrial complex is linked to multinational corporations like Mobil, Boeing, GM, etc. I remember during the first Gulf War, that General Motors said it made its most robust business was that done with the military. Anyhow the most likely scenario is going to be a Democrat in the White House and a very left wing one, either Obama or Clinton, maybe both. Europe is beginning to develop its own military industrial complex, so are China and Russia, the latter which is rebuilding into a superpower.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]Um the military industrial complex is linked to multinational corporations like Mobil, Boeing, GM, etc. I remember during the first Gulf War, that General Motors said it made its most robust business was that done with the military. Anyhow the most likely scenario is going to be a Democrat in the White House and a very left wing one, either Obama or Clinton, maybe both. Europe is beginning to develop its own military industrial complex, so are China and Russia, the latter which is rebuilding into a superpower.[/QUOTE]
Left? LOL
Okay if this primary run up is a "smoke and mirrors" show and the general is a continued show to those that can't make up their own minds, I think its possible and with a largely left leaning House and Senate that Obama or Clinton can be "pushed" into a Left leaning stance on National issues.
As I said on another site, I'd say 60% of America doesn't care what happens outside of the country, so as long as you give them Universial Health Care, Stablize the Economy and Rebuild the Country, that will distract them from the Imperializm that MIC wants to continue to run.
The Giled Age was crushed before and out of control corperations were reined in to so speak, so that will happen again. Wall Street which calls the shots can weather the lost of Medical Services and be happy to take payment from the Government to still be in control of Medical Services.
The question becomes who is paying for it??? US in the from of Taxes (Preferred) or up front payment to the establishment (Not preferred)
Hey CBGB we get Dateline (Aussie version) on Link TV
"Iraq Misadventure" - Classic
[url]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7b/GustavSchwarzenegger.gif[/url]
The above is a link to a photo of Arnold Schwarzenegger's father. He looks like a muscular version of Adolf Hitler. And he was a Nazi as well, in fact he voluntarily joined the Nazi party.
[QUOTE=Naked Gunz]
O'DRAMA would win by a landslide if he were not Black. RACISM is everywhere-planet wide. Thats whats real.[/QUOTE]
The only American presidents to win the office for the first time in a "landslide" were Franklin Roosevelt and George Washington - every other "landslide" was a case where the President was looking to continue thier respective administrations. Americans don't vote for the new guy in a "landslide".
Moreover, all of the most recent US elections have been tight with the winner rarely carrying a majority of votes cast:
George W. Bush got 50.7% of the votes in 2004
George W. Bush got 47.9% of the votes in 2000 (where Gore got 48.4%)
Clinton won 49 percent of votes in 1996, 43 percent in 1992. Ross Perot played a significant role in both Clinton victories.
So, it's reasonable to think the 2008 election will be tight, regardless of the candidates or thier race. This is true even if you think the Republicans are hurting because of Bush unpopularity.
For instance, in the 1976 election Ford had pardoned the extremely unpopular Nixon and, of course, Carter was a conservative southern Democrat. It was still a very close election. Carter got 50.1 of votes cast.
This contrasts with 2008, where McCain has "deniability" with the Bush administration, while Obama is a liberal from Chicago. Left of the Clintons. Based on his politics, he's not a slam dunk candidate. There are certainly states where his race and name are likely to hurt him, I'd suggest that in many of those places, he would have a hard time based on his politics alone.
On the other hand, it's pretty clear race has helped him so far. Some Democrats have said the only thing that makes Obama viable is his race. “If Obama was a white man, he would not be in this position. And if he was a woman of any color, he would not be in this position. He happens to be very lucky to be who he is. And the country is caught up in the concept.”
[QUOTE=Jelly Donut]On the other hand, it's pretty clear race has helped him so far. Some Democrats have said the only thing that makes Obama viable is his race. “If Obama was a white man, he would not be in this position. And if he was a woman of any color, he would not be in this position. He happens to be very lucky to be who he is. And the country is caught up in the concept.”[/QUOTE]
Obama's race helped a little in the Primary, but, alas, in our benighted homeland, it hurts tremendously in the General Election.
[QUOTE=Opebo]Obama's race helped a little in the Primary, but, alas, in our benighted homeland, it hurts tremendously in the General Election.[/QUOTE]
Yep but the interesting part will be just WHO is racist and who's not or who's not dumb enough to use race and vote against their own self-interest which happens all too often and that's because we run the largest propaganda machine on the planet.
The Internet has played its biggest roll thus far in this race, I don't think it will be at tight as you think. Dems are signing up to vote in record numbers, we've had record turnout thus far. Repubs can't all get behind McSain and I believe many will "sit this one out" and try to make a comeback in either 2012 or 2016 were they can put blame on the Dems for -
Not fixing the infastructure
Being a largely Green and Bio Fuel powered Nation by 2012
For not "winning" the war in Afghanistan
For not balancing the budget
Etc, Etc, Etc
But who know, maybe the stars will align again like they did for FDR and real change will happen. Then the Repugs can spend the next 20-30 years undoing what 16 years of Dem rule has done. I think American's finally UNDERSTAND what while Dems maybe Tax and Spend, at least they have something coming in. The Neo Cons cut taxes and spend..... That's a sure fire way to bankurpt a country, its working....
The National Organization for Women on Joe Biden.
[url]http://www.now.org/press/08-08/08-23.html[/url]
Here's some additioned material on what NOW considers offensive. They are currently linked to it directly off the NOW website. It should give you an idea of NOW's perspective on things.
[url]http://loveyourbody.nowfoundation.org/offensiveads.html[/url]
[QUOTE=Jelly Donut]The only American presidents to win the office for the first time in a "landslide" were Franklin Roosevelt and George Washington - every other "landslide" was a case where the President was looking to continue thier respective administrations. Americans don't vote for the new guy in a "landslide".
Moreover, all of the most recent US elections have been tight with the winner rarely carrying a majority of votes cast:
George W. Bush got 50.7% of the votes in 2004
George W. Bush got 47.9% of the votes in 2000 (where Gore got 48.4%)
Clinton won 49 percent of votes in 1996, 43 percent in 1992. Ross Perot played a significant role in both Clinton victories.
So, it's reasonable to think the 2008 election will be tight, regardless of the candidates or thier race. This is true even if you think the Republicans are hurting because of Bush unpopularity.
For instance, in the 1976 election Ford had pardoned the extremely unpopular Nixon and, of course, Carter was a conservative southern Democrat. It was still a very close election. Carter got 50.1 of votes cast.
This contrasts with 2008, where McCain has "deniability" with the Bush administration, while Obama is a liberal from Chicago. Left of the Clintons. Based on his politics, he's not a slam dunk candidate. There are certainly states where his race and name are likely to hurt him, I'd suggest that in many of those places, he would have a hard time based on his politics alone.
On the other hand, it's pretty clear race has helped him so far. Some Democrats have said the only thing that makes Obama viable is his race. “If Obama was a white man, he would not be in this position. And if he was a woman of any color, he would not be in this position. He happens to be very lucky to be who he is. And the country is caught up in the concept.”[/QUOTE]
Clinton won by a decent margin in 1996. Obama might have trouble in certain battleground states. I think he can win Ohio and Michigan, probably take Virginia and New Hampshire. Michigan should be a lock due the economic situation over there.
Obama is a bit too lofty in his rhetoric, Biden is more of a straight talker, speaking about the issues that are really bothering Americans such as being able to pay the bills, making sure the kids have a real future, etc. Right now more Americans are worried about paying the bills rather than getting into conflicts in far flung regions of the world. So the advantage belongs to Obama.
Tax and spend actually works out better than cutting taxes for the rich spending it on fruitless wars like is being done now. Its also one of the underlying factors behind the decline in value of the US Dollar. If a more sound fiscal strategy is put in place by the next administration, the Dollar can recover, if not.... :(
I've been reading through the Democrat Platform, a bit of language like this...
"Demeaning portrayals of women cheapen our debates, dampen the dreams of our daughters"
What exactly do these words mean? What are the implications of giving people who use this kind of language national power? That is, are the Democrats considering outlawing "demeaning portrayals of women"? What exactly is a "demeaning portrayal of women"? It's pretty clear from my previous post what the National Organization for Women thinks is an "offensive" portrayal of women - it's anything that might prompt an erection.
Also, there's some language about the hitting the [i]demand[/i] side of prostitution (that probably means you, by the way). Wonder how they are going to do that? You would think the party that gave us Eliot Spitzer could take a moment of self-reflection before renewing the war on men.
"a remarkably feminist document"
[url]http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/tapped_archive?month=08&year=2008&base_name=draft_womens_issues_in_dem_pla[/url]
[QUOTE=Opebo]our benighted homeland[/QUOTE]
I like the expression "our benighted homeland", but it's not clear to me it applies to the United States. Here you've got a son of Kenya facing off against a beauty queen. More or less. The political poetry is nearly Peruvian or even Italian in ebuilence.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]So the advantage belongs to Obama[/QUOTE]
Yes. I guess. I'm not good with predictions, I'm more about history. I worship Nemisis, the Greek goddess who screws people over by granting them thier wishes.
[QUOTE=Jelly Donut]I like the expression "our benighted homeland", but it's not clear to me it applies to the United States. Here you've got a son of Kenya facing off against a beauty queen. More or less. The political poetry is nearly Peruvian or even Italian in ebuilence.[/QUOTE]
Merely an entertainment for the serfs. The election is always won by the owning class - the only real constituent for either party.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]Clinton won by a decent margin in 1996. Obama might have trouble in certain battleground states. I think he can win Ohio and Michigan, probably take Virginia and New Hampshire. Michigan should be a lock due the economic situation over there.
Obama is a bit too lofty in his rhetoric, Biden is more of a straight talker, speaking about the issues that are really bothering Americans such as being able to pay the bills, making sure the kids have a real future, etc. Right now more Americans are worried about paying the bills rather than getting into conflicts in far flung regions of the world. So the advantage belongs to Obama.
Tax and spend actually works out better than cutting taxes for the rich spending it on fruitless wars like is being done now. Its also one of the underlying factors behind the decline in value of the US Dollar. If a more sound fiscal strategy is put in place by the next administration, the Dollar can recover, if not.... :([/QUOTE]
Tax and Spend isn't true of course... They tell the lie often enough you think its true, it isn't. Its should be phased -
We Dems spend to make sure Americans have jobs in case you greedy assholes in the Conservative movement decide not to hire anybody. The truth is FDR spent money on large public works projects just to make sure jobs were available to people that wanted to work, yes it put the country in debt, but when you have more people working, prospering, you have more tax money coming in.
Contemporary Dems understand that...
Under Democratic rule we had more money in our coffers than anytime in history, were do you think Eisenhower got the money for the Korean War and The Interstate Highway system??? And even HE said beware of the "Industrial Military Complex"....
Conservatives spend all their time talking about the one or two free-loaders that would take advantage of governments benevolence and their sole debate is based around the 1% of America that would use the system to just be lazy.
This is the 2nd time they put our country in ruin....
Watch they'll come back in 10 or 12 years with some other idea to try and fool Americans that they have the better idea.
Business people aren't stupid, they welcome the tax cuts and government hand-outs and business welfare. However they know also that the government can't go bankrupt, that unhappy workers have less productivity and if they make less they can't spend money on the shiet we don't need.
But the social structure has changed enough that you now need to implement social programs similar to the ones you find in Social Democratic countries like Britain and Germany.
Universal Health Care for example will take employers off the hook. Big Pharma and Health Care providers just want to be apart of it and profit. But they abused the system, and like Obama said need to own up to their failed way of doing business. Rich people will find some another way to make money, there's no need to feel sorry for them and that's what the Conservatives have successfully done to average Americans.
We need sweeping social change and we just might get it this time. My goodness Truman wanted to push through Universal Health Care back during his tenure, this is not a new idea at all, Conservatives have always beat that back as being Communist. Well the only commies left are the Chinese and nobody would believe any nonsense you would have to say about China, so it will get done and its similar to Edward's plan.
Let's just say America's ideas of Imperialism isn't over quite yet, but we'll temper that with sweeping social change and the Conservatives won't be able to keep it from happening actually because the Americans that pay attention will hold them accountable and sweep their butts out of office if they obstruct the change we need.
My goodness its about time, roads are crumbling, bridges are falling, dams are cracked, we need Wind Power, a Solar subsidy program that would put millions of American roofs to work harvesting the sun's powerm, cutting down our use of coal and oil for home heating, power and cooling. At least 15-20 MILLION jobs over the next 8-10 years.
When people can stop worrying about their wallets, then they'll be more confortable when you want sweeping social changes.
We can pay down the national debt by just having more people moving up into a higher tax bracket, cutting back spending the miltary by say 20% and you could still re-tool our Army's with that, its still more than anybody else spends by 45%.... Allowing those that don't make as much to keep their money so they can buy goods and services thus make money from sales taxes, property taxes, etc, etc. The US has an income stream like a muthfucka, how come you think countries are so ready to loan us money? They know we can pay it back and then some, but the social climate has to be right, when Obama talks about "America's Promise" the business sector also sees "America's Promise" as an opportunity to make more money off America... It can't be dysfunctional for that to be possible.. Right now its dysfunctional
[QUOTE=Opebo]Merely an entertainment for the serfs. The election is always won by the owning class - the only real constituent for either party.[/QUOTE]
It is entertaining.
[QUOTE=DJ4$]you greedy assholes[/QUOTE]
A principle concern a reader here would have with the Democrat party is it's interest in extending the power of Federal government over individuals. In simple terms, they do this by taking more of what you own and giving to someone who wants something for nothing. "I want to have kids while I'm still in high school and I want the government to provide a variety legal and programatic ways to make that easier".
[QUOTE=Jelly Donut]A principle concern a reader here would have with the Democrat party is it's interest in extending the power of Federal government over individuals. In simple terms, they do this by taking more of what you own and giving to someone who wants something for nothing. "I want to have kids while I'm still in high school and I want the government to provide a variety legal and programatic ways to make that easier".[/QUOTE]
Thanks for contributing the usual right-wing racist line. The only people in this world who get something for nothing are the owners, JD.
[quote=opebo]thanks for contributing the usual right-wing racist line. [/quote]
before i started the chatter here, no one had posted anything to this thread since this past march. so, in the sense that i've given you some reason to post, some reason to get your blood up - you are welcome.
though i'm not really sure where the "racist" comes from. to bring you up-to-speed, the most recent notable case of high school girls making a 'pact' to get pregnant was in gloucester, massachusetts. as far as i know, all the girls involved were white. i know a couple of white girls who game the system, juggling boyfriends and pumping out kids. it did not occur to me that what i was saying had anything to do with race at all. so, if you think what i said is racist, that's more about you, not about me.
but, yeah, it's conservative thinking. i would be very surprised if you don't believe in ownership on some level - are you suggesting a person should not even have self-ownership? that everything belongs to the community?
[quote=opebo]the only people in this world who get something for nothing are the owners, jd.[/quote]
i guess i agree. for instance, i earned 73 cents today in my prosper.com account. in theory, that's money i got "for nothing" lending it out to various people who need it. of course, i did work for the money i was lending out and earning that 73 cents meant taking on some risk. it surprises me how much money it takes to earn 73 cents a day. you have to work hard to get something for nothing.
it surprises me that american government generally taxes savings like this more than, say, purchasing comic books or junk food.
a lot of people own things in the united states. many people own homes (far more today than 10 years ago) and many people are invested in financial markets. and, generally, these are the people who vote. the politics reflect this. so, did not disagree with you - "the election is always won by the owning class - the only real constituent for either party". it's just the "owning class" is a big thing in the united states, a lot of people own stuff.
[quote=jelly donut]before i started the chatter here, no one had posted anything to this thread since this past march. so, in the sense that i've given you some reason to post, some reason to get your blood up - you are welcome.
though i'm not really sure where the "racist" comes from. to bring you up-to-speed, the most recent notable case of high school girls making a 'pact' to get pregnant was in gloucester, massachusetts. as far as i know, all the girls involved were white. i know a couple of white girls who game the system, juggling boyfriends and pumping out kids. it did not occur to me that what i was saying had anything to do with race at all. so, if you think what i said is racist, that's more about you, not about me.
but, yeah, it's conservative thinking. i would be very surprised if you don't believe in ownership on some level - are you suggesting a person should not even have self-ownership? that everything belongs to the community?
i guess i agree. for instance, i earned 73 cents today in my prosper.com account. in theory, that's money i got "for nothing" lending it out to various people who need it. of course, i did work for the money i was lending out and earning that 73 cents meant taking on some risk. it surprises me how much money it takes to earn 73 cents a day. you have to work hard to get something for nothing.
it surprises me that american government generally taxes savings like this more than, say, purchasing comic books or junk food.
a lot of people own things in the united states. many people own homes (far more today than 10 years ago) and many people are invested in financial markets. and, generally, these are the people who vote. the politics reflect this. so, did not disagree with you - "the election is always won by the owning class - the only real constituent for either party". it's just the "owning class" is a big thing in the united states, a lot of people own stuff.[/quote]
its the glided age part 2, as to ownage of "stuff" one man in a cnbc doc about how the rich spend there money can't remember how many homes he had, it wasn't mcsain either.
said man got rich of the start of the sub prime lending.... hmmm
i guess that goes with the "right place at the right time" edict
this time however, there is [i]hope[/i] from the "poor" side of america and you'll see 70% voter turn out and that's high or record breaking in this country.
don't believe the poles, its obama's to loose and he's not loosing, sarah palin is going to be made the escape goat here, she'll go back to juno and nobody we'll even know she was here.
the "owning" class may control overall what happens, but us "nobodys" will have something to say nov 4th and that's not to say obama doesn't owe big business any favors for putting up the huge sums of money. we don't see the ads in california, its a confirmed blue state, no reason too. but in purple states and confirmed red states he needs to carry, that's where you'll see all the tactics played out.
after this, i'll still pay attention, i always have and mostly because i find it dayum interesting (as the rest of the world does) and quite amazing, that we as "americans" manage to speak out of both sides of our mouths at the same time... ie - hypocrates!
Am ready to puke while watching this RNC babble.
Gentlemen,
When the founders wrote the Dec. Of Ind. Which we sent to King of the limeys, George, we declared our natural right to "life, liberty, and the "pursuit of happiness. "" Some of the more "conservative" founders wanted to replace "pursuit of happiness" with "property. " The founders wisely rejected "property. " My point is this, property is not what America is about to me. It is the freedom to do what makes one happy without hurting another citizen. So while all the right-wingers cry about taxation, it is the Freedom to do what I like without some psuedoreligous / fundementalist / hypocrite / corporateapologist / warmonger trying to force me to live as "God" tell them we should that I value. Hell I donot even know what the hell started this rant, but I watched some of the Repugs convention and got sick.
Meluvulongtime
"The measure also makes it a crime for a U.S. citizen or permanent resident traveling in foreign commerce to engage, or attempt to engage, in illicit sexual conduct, even though the individual did not travel with the intent of engaging in these acts"
[url]http://maloney.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=321&Itemid=61[/url]
Congresswoman Maloney represents the 14th district, New York. She is a Democrat and is not working for your liberty or your happiness.
[QUOTE=Jelly Donut]"The measure also makes it a crime for a U.S. citizen or permanent resident traveling in foreign commerce to engage, or attempt to engage, in illicit sexual conduct, even though the individual did not travel with the intent of engaging in these acts"
[url]http://maloney.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=321&Itemid=61[/url]
Congresswoman Maloney represents the 14th district, New York. She is a Democrat and is not working for your liberty or your happiness. [/QUOTE] What? You mean it’s not just the religious conservative rightwing that’s against prostitution?
Next you'll be telling me that organization like the” National Organization of Woman” is against a woman’s right to choose what she does with her body, or at least when it comes to prostitution?
Hmmmmm....The “National Organization of Woman” is supporting “BO” (I think), you don’t suppose old “H” has made any promises to any of these groups do you?
[QUOTE=Punter 127]What? You mean it’s not just the religious conservative rightwing that’s against prostitution? [/QUOTE]
Right. The reality is the Democratic platform is specific in targeting the "demand" side of prostitution and it seems to me that some of the folks who post here don't understand the full implications of that language.
[QUOTE=MeLuvULongTime]
Some of the more "conservative" founders wanted to replace "pursuit of happiness" with "property. " The founders wisely rejected "property. " [/QUOTE]
Of course, on your larger point, I agree with you. You are a very clear-headed person. A good life is more about chasing dreams and being happy.
But as a matter of government, property is important. Ideas about property are very important. For instance, in the United States, you own yourself.
This was an idea not fully realized by the founders. Some of them were on the right track, but as you know many of them owned other people. These radical ideas about property were only undone with the 13th and 14th Amendments to the Constitution (for which you can thank Republicans). The guy who came up with the "life, liberty, property" idea was an English philosopher who never owned slaves and was not in Philadelphia in 1776.
In sharp contrast, Jefferson, slaveholder and author of the Declaration, had hypocritical views on "property". Just because he adopted the powerful language "pursuit of happiness" didn't mean anything to regular people at Monticello. A cynical person might suggest he was avoiding the subject of self-ownership. Anyway, he talked an excellent game, but didn't walk the walk. Jefferson is often pointed to as one of the founding figures of the Democratic Party. So, I'd encourage you to be more thoughtful when you make generalizations about "conservatives".
I hope this is a joke because we all know how the average republican feels about the black youth. I would hate to see ole Johnny boy have a heart attack…
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VELIG92GDXw[/url]
[QUOTE=Daddy Warbucks 1]I hope this is a joke because we all know how the average republican feels about the black youth. I would hate to see ole Johnny boy have a heart attack…
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VELIG92GDXw[/url][/QUOTE]
Its a joke, its not true, but funny...
Bristol isn't bad looking, has big ole bitties and only 17.... US Magazine believes Trig in her child, she was holding him most of the time, HMMMMM.
If I was old boyfriend, I would be finding a way to get the hell away from that family after all this nonsense dies, he looks like a dear caught in headlights, has had no intention of marrying Bristol...
The Republican Party is so full of shit. They criticize Barack Obama for saying he would authorize US forces to go into Pakistan without Paks consent after Al Qaeda but then what does dictator Bush do? Does the same thing well got damn.
[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/11/washington/11policy.html?ex=1378872000&en=bcb45afd964f57c7&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink[/url]
[QUOTE=Daddy Warbucks 1]They criticize Barack Obama for saying he would authorize US forces to go into Pakistan without Paks consent after Al Qaeda but then what does dictator Bush do?
[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/11/washington/11policy.html?ex=1378872000&en=bcb45afd964f57c7&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink[/url][/QUOTE]
Obama called for this back in August 2007. At the time, Obama was talking tough after having promised to meet unconditionally with heads of various countries which support terrorism in July 2007.
Of course, the United States had considered raids into Pakistan well before 2007.
[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/08/washington/08intel.html[/url]
However, since August 2007 we've seen the assassination of Benazir Bhutto in December 2007 and the removal Pervez Musharraf as President of Pakistan. So things are different. I can't say I'm an expert on Pakistan, but it seems pretty clear the United States is circumstancing for the new President of Pakistan to "cave" to American pressure and increase Pakistani efforts against Al Queda in northern Pakistan.
I'd like to think the next President will be able to juggle these kinds of things regardless of party label.
"Ashley Alexandra Dupré, in the meantime, needs to be treated as a VICTIM! "
[url]http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/03/19/a-call-girls-story/[/url]
You could say the same thing about our contemporary American writers. It's a damn shame about David Foster Wallace and Iris Chang. Victims. Of something. I'm sure. Maybe we should put an end to writing or, at least, trafficking in books.
Certainly whoever came up with this phrase below has [i]something[/i] wrong with them, although I don't think the double-speak is an accident:
"[url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord908][CodeWord908][/url] is modern-day slavery through labor or commercial sexual exploitation, [blue]and does not require transportation to occur[/blue], though transportation may be involved."
[url]http://www.polarisproject.org/[/url]
Apparently the vision is to charge people with [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord908][CodeWord908][/url] when no 'victim' has been moved.
while i am in no way an advocate for oj he has put himself in bad positions of late but and all white jury and on top of that most of the jury admitted that they were against his murder verdict. this is not a jury of his peers forgive me for saying this but i don’t think people of opposite race should judge a person or at least make it half and half race wise. i am sorry but i wouldn’t trust all white jury or all asian jury they are not my peers….
[url]http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080912/en_afp/entertainmentuscrimetrialsimpson[/url]
On OJ, I don't know about half and half race-wise since the last time I checked blacks were way less than half the population of the US, Nevada, or Las Vegas but that bothered me as well.
On the Trig Palin thing, Down's Syndrome is clearly associated with older mothers and not younger ones so I doubt Trig is the daughter's baby. Wikipedia, a convenient if not always reliable source, says:
"Maternal age influences the chances of conceiving a baby with Down syndrome. At maternal age 20 to 24, the probability is one in 1562; at age 35 to 39 the probability is one in 214, and above age 45 the probability is one in 19. Although the probability increases with maternal age, 80% of children with Down syndrome are born to women under the age of 35, reflecting the overall fertility of that age group. Recent data also suggest that paternal age, especially beyond 42, also increases the risk of Down Syndrome manifesting in pregnancies in older mothers."
[QUOTE=Dickhead]On OJ, I don't know about half and half race-wise since the last time I checked blacks were way less than half the population of the US, Nevada, or Las Vegas but that bothered me as well.
[/QUOTE]
According to your logic if and only if half of the US pop was black then the jury should be half black if that’s the case then 13 percent of the US pop is black so 13 percent of 12 is roughly 1.5 rounded off would be two people. Ok given that AmeriKKKa couldn’t give him that. History has proved when the racial makeup of the jury goes against the defendant they are going to hang….
[QUOTE=Jelly Donut]Apparently the vision is to charge people with [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord908][CodeWord908][/url] when no 'victim' has been moved.[/QUOTE]
That's exactly right. Better still, the 'victim' doesn't even have to be proven to be a 'victim'.
After three years and millions of taxpayer dollars being poured into anti-trafficking efforts, the Australian Federal Police were still unable to secure one single conviction of trafficking and/or sex slavery. The problem was, the darn 'victims' kept refusing to play ball and admit they were victims. In fact, most of poor, misguided souls claimed they'd travelled to Australia to work in our brothels BY CHOICE! The United States was unimpressed and accused Australia of not doing enough to protect these poor women from themselves.
So they changed the law, to make the issue of consent irrelevant. Now it doesn't matter whether you consented to coming to Australia or consented to working as a sex worker when you got here. If you come here from a developing country and you work in a brothel, a crime has taken place. Full stop. Unfknbelievable.
[QUOTE=Jelly Donut]Also, there's some language about the hitting the [i]demand[/i] side of prostitution (that probably means you, by the way). Wonder how they are going to do that? You would think the party that gave us Eliot Spitzer could take a moment of self-reflection before renewing the war on men.[/QUOTE]
The campaign for the 'Swedish Model' - criminalising clients in the name of 'protecting' sex workers - isn't just a war on men. It's a war on wh*res as well.
[QUOTE=Rubber Nursey]Unfknbelievable.[/QUOTE]
It's going to be interesting to see what comes of the "Natalie Dylan" tempest. My understanding is she lives in California and is self-trafficking to Nevada in order to "sell her virginity". While prostitution may be legal in parts of Nevada, as we all should know by now, she will be violating the Mann Act if she crosses state lines for the purpose of prostitution. It was estabilished early in the history of that law, that the "victim" could also be the perpetrator.
"Suppose, for instance that a professional prostitute, as well able to look out for herself as was the man, should suggest and carry out the journey within the act of 1910 in the hope of blackmailing the man, and should buy the railroad tickets, or should pay the fare..."
I can't imagine this has escaped the attention of authorities. Think about the reaction if she pulls it off and all America's virgins started doing the math. Anyway, the dude that travels to Nevada for the purpose of having sex with her is opening himself up the same situation Eliot Spitzer was placed in earlier this year.
"Spitzer Has Sinned, But It’s Our Sex Obsession That’s Criminal "
[url]http://www.forward.com/articles/12885/[/url]
[QUOTE=Dickhead]On OJ, I don't know about half and half race-wise since the last time I checked blacks were way less than half the population of the US, Nevada, or Las Vegas but that bothered me as well.
On the Trig Palin thing, Down's Syndrome is clearly associated with older mothers and not younger ones so I doubt Trig is the daughter's baby. Wikipedia, a convenient if not always reliable source, says:
"Maternal age influences the chances of conceiving a baby with Down syndrome. At maternal age 20 to 24, the probability is one in 1562; at age 35 to 39 the probability is one in 214, and above age 45 the probability is one in 19. Although the probability increases with maternal age, 80% of children with Down syndrome are born to women under the age of 35, reflecting the overall fertility of that age group. Recent data also suggest that paternal age, especially beyond 42, also increases the risk of Down Syndrome manifesting in pregnancies in older mothers."[/QUOTE]
Well that MAY be true, however. Tina Fey, I mean Sarah Palin must not have much control over Bristol if she's PREGNANT and in that sense, AK is the Meth capitol of the country along with being the incense capital of the country.
Ding, Ding, Ding
I will stick with the rumors that might be true -
Palin has cheated on her husband - In The National Inq
She put Wasila 22 MILLION in debt, for a town of just about $6K - TRUE
If Trig is her baby, she a true dumb ass passing up Neonatal care in Houston, then flying to Arckorage, ignoring the NeoNatal Care center there and then going to Wasila to have your baby??? WTF???
80% popularity is FALSE
She's a LIAR - TRUE
Tina Fey hit the nail on the head on SNL - True
She's a morron - "I can see Russia from my backyard...."
[url]http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081004/ap_on_re_us/oj_simpson[/url]
An all white jury for the most racially hated man in all of American history.
Wow. I am never moving back to the States....That whole trial and jury selection was ridiculous. I mean OJ put himself in that position but damn.
[QUOTE=Daddy Warbucks 1][url]http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081004/ap_on_re_us/oj_simpson[/url]
An all white jury for the most racially hated man in all of American history.
Wow. I am never moving back to the States....That whole trial and jury selection was ridiculous. I mean OJ put himself in that position but damn.[/QUOTE]
Yep and I'm trying to leave....
The law is unfair for people of color and its nothing new, it won't change anytime soon, its not even a subject in the undercurrent. It is in the Green Party circles but who listens to Cynthia McKinney????
We'll see what happens over the next few months, this Country is going to hell in a hand basket. Still blaming minorities for the sub prime problem, dragging down the economy, when it was DING you guessed it who controls the banks, the loan companies, the brokers and the stock market.
Uh, my head is hurting. I'm not getting laid, I want to make sure even though Obama is not the complete answer unless we push him (we can look what happen last week). I keep looking at Bride.ru... lol
I need to get outta here and find my woman...
[QUOTE=Daddy Warbucks 1][url]http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081004/ap_on_re_us/oj_simpson[/url]
An all white jury for the most racially hated man in all of American history.
Wow. I am never moving back to the States....That whole trial and jury selection was ridiculous. I mean OJ put himself in that position but damn.[/QUOTE]
There was a Pakistani guy in Australia who went to Pakistan and hung out at a terrorist training camp but decided he would serve jihad better as a doctor, went back, Aussie immigration found training manuals in his luggage, he was accused of terrorism, then he was left completely off the hook. He lives free as a bird in Sydney Australia, thats how much more liberal the justice system in Australia is compared to the US, this same person if he was in the US would be locked up in Supermax or Gitmo in less than a New York minute. Even if Obama wins which is highly likely barring any kind of big surprise in the next couple of weeks, I think people of color will always be treated unfairly, and adding to the difficulty is that you have minorities who are complete white ass kissers in America, particularly in the newsmedia.
People in America are brushing aside the Wall Street crisis, the reality is that all but the superwealthy in America are about to be screwed over big time, in fact this is the final straw in the hay, and America's day as an economic superpower will now come to an end with economic leadership of the world going East to the Pacific region and maybe somewhat to Europe, but its clear that the true beginning of an Asian century is now here. Despite all the talk of economic meltdown in the US and UK, China is set to continue its lightning fast growth, other Asian nations are also growing, even Japan which was in a 20 year recession is now reawakening and seeing new markets in Asia and Europe for its wares.
[QUOTE=Daddy Warbucks 1][url]http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081004/ap_on_re_us/oj_simpson[/url]
An all white jury for the most racially hated man in all of American history.
Wow. I am never moving back to the States....That whole trial and jury selection was ridiculous. I mean OJ put himself in that position but damn.[/QUOTE]Will be glad to see OJ locked up, period.
Squeeze the Juice. He's a murderer and a complete moron to boot.
if you can prove or disprove your case in the US court of law. these two things are not mutually inclusive.
of course OJ snapped and killed his x and her boyfriend as they slept together in the residence that he paid for.
but the prosecution was out lawyered by oj's defense team. they didn't prove their case and the jury reached a correct verdict.
[QUOTE=Doctor_Skank]Will be glad to see OJ locked up, period.
Squeeze the Juice. He's a murderer and a complete moron to boot.[/QUOTE]
...then he deserves to go to jail. What I am "tripping" on is that all white jury bullshit. If people believe that was not a set up then I got some beach front property in the Antarctica for sale.
[QUOTE=Daddy Warbucks 1]...then he deserves to go to jail. What I am "tripping" on is that all white jury bullshit. If people believe that was not a set up then I got some beach front property in the Antarctica for sale.[/QUOTE]OJ got off the first time because of his race and the fact that following the Rodney King fiasco, LA was afraid of a race riot upon his conviction. Glad to see him get his come-uppance.
[QUOTE=Doctor_Skank]OJ got off the first time because of his race and the fact that following the Rodney King fiasco, LA was afraid of a race riot upon his conviction. Glad to see him get his come-uppance.[/QUOTE]
It is these types of remarks that convince me that OJ was convicted of killing Nicole Brown, rather than of the armed robbery of dealers possessing items that belonged to him.
Orenthal should have taken his NFL pension and relocated to Brazil where he would have lived out the remainder of his life in peace surrounded by beautiful women.
[QUOTE=George90]It is these types of remarks that convince me that OJ was convicted of killing Nicole Brown, rather than of the armed robbery of dealers possessing items that belonged to him.[/QUOTE]Maybe... I wasn't on the jury.
....No Black man in America should be tried by an all-white jury. I am sorry but I think time and time again this has proved to be detrimental to the Black guy. If he is guilty then OK but you know as of late they have been finding a lot of guys innocent after 20 years behind bars. My mother has a childhood friend who did 20 then was rewarded $5million after he was cleared. That money can’t get 20 years of his life back. His jury was all-white.
I don’t care if I get flamed for this next statement but I think Non-Blacks are inclined to assume Blacks are guilty regardless of the evidence. In my travels witnessed too much racism against Blacks to trust any race of people other then the original.
[QUOTE=Daddy Warbucks 1]....No Black man in America should be tried by an all-white jury. I am sorry but I think time and time again this has proved to be detrimental to the Black guy. If he is guilty then OK but you know as of late they have been finding a lot of guys innocent after 20 years behind bars. My mother has a childhood friend who did 20 then was rewarded $5million after he was cleared. That money can’t get 20 years of his life back. His jury was all-white.
I don’t care if I get flamed for this next statement but I think Non-Blacks are inclined to assume Blacks are guilty regardless of the evidence. In my travels witnessed too much racism against Blacks to trust any race of people other then the original.[/QUOTE]
+1
Though I don't believe Doc isn't one of those, he just doesn't believe its possible that OJ might have been there to kill Nicole and Goldman but didn't actually KILL them.
They never found the murder weapon. Furman killed the case by being a racist idiot and LAPD has a trigger happy reputation anyway those things didn't help.
If the jury helped OJ because he was Black, so WHAT! Because if that was the case it doesn't explain why Blacks are more likely to do jail time in there life than than Whites in America, its no accident.
There are plenty of good documentaries to watch about how UNFAIR our court system is to not only Blacks, but Latinos and Poor Whites.
OJ put himself in a position to see jail time. I agree, he should have LEFT America.
Roman Polanski so they say banged a 13 year old girl and fled to France, is now a French Citizen and can't be extradited back to the US, tisk, tisk...
He could have lived in Europe banged all the white women he wanted, he is the "Juice" after all and women are stupid they don't seem to mind if your criminal at all, which is highly interesting...
[QUOTE=Daddy Warbucks 1]....No Black man in America should be tried by an all-white jury. I am sorry but I think time and time again this has proved to be detrimental to the Black guy. If he is guilty then OK but you know as of late they have been finding a lot of guys innocent after 20 years behind bars. My mother has a childhood friend who did 20 then was rewarded $5million after he was cleared. That money can’t get 20 years of his life back. His jury was all-white.
I don’t care if I get flamed for this next statement but I think Non-Blacks are inclined to assume Blacks are guilty regardless of the evidence. In my travels witnessed too much racism against Blacks to trust any race of people other then the original.[/QUOTE]
Dude every thread I read you on,you are griping about race. It is my contention that you are a racist. That is all you talk about. The Thailand threads, etc. YOU SIR ARE THE RACIST!!! OJ should be in jail for life if not executed!!!!
[quote=daddy warbucks 1]....no black man in america should be tried by an all-white jury. i am sorry but i think time and time again this has proved to be detrimental to the black guy. if he is guilty then ok but you know as of late they have been finding a lot of guys innocent after 20 years behind bars. my mother has a childhood friend who did 20 then was rewarded $5million after he was cleared. that money can’t get 20 years of his life back. his jury was all-white.
i don’t care if i get flamed for this next statement but i think non-blacks are inclined to assume blacks are guilty regardless of the evidence. in my travels witnessed too much racism against blacks to trust any race of people other then the original.[/quote]
i taught history in the hood while i was waiting for my clearance for a le job and when my students ecoched sentiments to yours i always provided them with this panacea to their situation: do not do things which are punishable by incaraceration and do not associate with those that do.
simple as that.
justice in america is more about the quality of counsel than anything else...see oj verdict 1 for a prime example of this....
re false convictions:
a classmate of mine worked with barry sheck's innocence project and the fact is that most of the dudes later exonerated were career criminals who had been playing in the criminal justice system for too long...ultimately, they lost a bet. they may have very well indeed been innocent of the crimes that they were put away for but it's highly likely that they walked for many more infractions for which they were not caught or convicted of.
police don't really set up innocent people....although i do believe that a certain level of force is often employed in arrests that may not be required...but this is not really a race issue as the local le on the task force i worked on were a little rough with everyone.
one of the many reasons why i didn't last long was that i never really was enamored with the busting down doors and manhandling people aspect of the job...i thought the work would me much more cerebral.
of course, i think that before the 80s the situation was worse
about the only thing that a brotha will be surely shit outta luck is if he's in the deep south and messing with intoxicated **** white girls.
that's a no no.
[quote=looking for eden]dude every thread i read you on,you are griping about race. it is my contention that you are a racist. that is all you talk about. the thailand threads, etc. you sir are the racist!!! oj should be in jail for life if not executed!!!![/quote]
i will use the typical white guy defense when they are called a racist. "hey i have (black) white friends." :d the last few posts i dropped were (thailand) in the "thailand racism against foreigners thread." what the hell are we suppose to be discussing there baseball?
please enlighten me as the other threads i have made racist comments.
your personal attacks are groundless and baseless!
oj was found not guilty in his first trial end of story. in this one he was judged by a jury that was prejudice and were not his peers. the way you feel about oj is typical of your brethren. i think george bush punk ass should be in jail for life but hey who is keeping count?
thanks for stopping by.
[quote=daddy warbucks 1]i will use the typical white guy defense when they are called a racist. "hey i have (black) white friends." :d oj was found not guilty in his first trial end of story. in this one he was judged by a jury that was prejudice and were not his peers. the way you feel about oj is typical of your brethren. i think george bush punk ass should be in jail for life but hey who is keeping count?
thanks for stopping by.[/quote]and you think oj is innocent of his current crime, or are you just upset that poor oj is getting reamed by the man? and your feelings aren't racially-motivated? what if it was joe montana?
i'm hardly a staunch defender of the american legal system, as there have been enough examples of where it is unfair. for example marion jones served time for her doping crimes. do you think the same would happen to mark mcgwire? who knows.
nonetheless, why not be happy that oj is behind bars. he's a criminal... and now he's even a convicted one.
[quote=doctor_skank]and you think oj is innocent of his current crime, or are you just upset that poor oj is getting reamed by the man? and your feelings aren't racially-motivated? what if it was joe montana?
i'm hardly a staunch defender of the american legal system, as there have been enough examples of where it is unfair. for example marion jones served time for her doping crimes. do you think the same would happen to mark mcgwire? who knows.
nonetheless, why not be happy that oj is behind bars. he's a criminal... and now he's even a convicted one.[/quote]
i think he was guilty as all hell. it was not like he was robbing a bank or your local liquor store. he went to retrieve things that were his to begin with and as i said he put himself in this position. i said it once and i am saying it again i have an issue with the all-white jury.
it was still armed robbery and he should be in jail for it as anyone. i don't think no one should be judged by jury opposite of his race. if joe montana was on trial it should not be a bunch of daddy warbucks sitting on the bench. can i relate to joe? is he my peer? would i be inclined to really listen to the evidence presented? by joe being not what i am would i be inclined to not give a damn if he rots in prison?
[quote=daddy warbucks 1]can i relate to joe? is he my peer? would i be inclined to really listen to the evidence presented? by joe being not what i am would i be inclined to not give a damn if he rots in prison?[/quote]so you are promoting segregation?
black juries for black people and white juries for white?
what about latinos and asians?
and what is a peer? oj's peers are overpaid, egotistic, often above-the-law athletes. should oj be judged by the university of miami football team? i'm sure they'd find him innocent and then hit the strip clubs together, maybe [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord125][CodeWord125][/url] somebody along the way or beating up the bouncer.
[QUOTE=Doctor_Skank]OJ got off the first time because of his race and the fact that following the Rodney King fiasco, LA was afraid of a race riot upon his conviction. Glad to see him get his come-uppance.[/QUOTE]OJ got off the first time because he had the best lawyers in America and he was prosecuted by 2 bumbling attornies who went on to become rich due to their ineptitude.
Second, I think a lot of White Americans got pissed at Black Americans because they felt people were cheering because OJ got away with a crime. I did not feel this way and many of my Black friends didn't either. I don't mean to sound crude but I didn't know or really care about the 2 victims. I wanted to see if a rich Black man could manipulate the judicial system the same way rich White men have been able to. So the first OJ verdict actually told me to go put some money in the bank because that levels the playing field. So I can say without remorse that I was happy for the first OJ verdict because it exposed what actually runs our judicial system and now I know the rules. Any rich person can get away with a crime! But God help you if you are poor.
Now, coming from a Black man. Why didn't OJ just disappear? Why was his big fucking head always on the news? What the fuck was up with "If I did it"?
Just my 2 centavos.
[quote=doctor_skank]so you are promoting segregation?
black juries for black people and white juries for white?
what about latinos and asians?
and what is a peer? oj's peers are overpaid, egotistic, often above-the-law athletes. should oj be judged by the university of miami football team? i'm sure they'd find him innocent and then hit the strip clubs together, maybe [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord125][CodeWord125][/url] somebody along the way or beating up the bouncer.[/quote]
in situations like this i am all for segregation.
peers...people from racial/social backgrounds as is the defendant.
my my...is that what you think young college football players do in their spare time [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url]? i am surprised at you.
oj is kind of a special case, he is famous and wealthy. the average minority who faces the justice system is not, and the us system is extremely harsh against minorities. many times its a case of someone being at the wrong place at the wrong time, there are countless cases of black men being arrested just for being in the vicinity of a major crime. my newly adopted country of australia, people say there is a racism problem down under but frankly speaking its a huge crock of shit because certain ethnic groups that live in australia would have some serious issues in america. the system in europe is a total joke as well, that is why you have areas in europe where the police are too cowardly to enter. i went to asia on a trip and saw a group of perverts closely follow an attractive girl in a shopping area in hong kong, if they pulled that in the us they would be all arrested for either assault or attempted [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url] in less than a nyc minute.
[quote=daddy warbucks 1]in situations like this i am all for segregation.
peers...people from racial/social backgrounds as is the defendant.
my my...is that what you think young college football players do in their spare time [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url]? i am surprised at you.[/quote]was metaphorically speaking... and used the once-notorious miami football team as an exaggerated example. i thought you'd be able to see through that. of course i don't throw all college athletes into one pot.
but there's another double standard for you... college athletes get away with almost anything on campus. at my university there were a couple of alleged [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord124][CodeWord124][/url] (which most believed actually occured) that were brushed under the rug in the name of the school's reputation and the football and basketball program. i'm sure this is the case at a lot of schools.
and you think segregation would work? by that logic there should be double standards for crimes committed? that's a step backwards, or not?
bet you are all for affirmative action too.
"The Norwegian stunt reporter Pia Haraldsen would cover the U.S. election campaign for Norwegian TV 2 Entertainment, but the Americans remembered her previous performance as a reporter. Therefore, they said no to grant her journalist visa.
Pia made great success as "political editor" in the "Rikets Røst" on TV2, and managed to irritate the U.S. politician James Oddo so that he swored and threw Haraldsen and the film team on the door. The video quickly found the way to You Tube, where it has been seen by hundreds of thousands of people. According to VG, this is the reason why Haraldsen unable to cover the election campaign as a journalist.
Satire should be element why the U.S. security ministry has turned thumbs down Haraldsen application and has not granted her a journalist visa. Pia Haraldsen is a graduate in media and communications at Goldsmiths College in London, is a member of the Norwegian Journalists association and have international press cards."
Enclosed the video link and some photos.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1iNH7W9SC8[/url]
[QUOTE=Balluba]"The Norwegian stunt reporter Pia Haraldsen would cover the U.S. election campaign for Norwegian TV 2 Entertainment, but the Americans remembered her previous performance as a reporter. Therefore, they said no to grant her journalist visa.
Pia made great success as "political editor" in the "Rikets Røst" on TV2, and managed to irritate the U.S. politician James Oddo so that he swored and threw Haraldsen and the film team on the door. The video quickly found the way to You Tube, where it has been seen by hundreds of thousands of people. According to VG, this is the reason why Haraldsen unable to cover the election campaign as a journalist.
Satire should be element why the U.S. security ministry has turned thumbs down Haraldsen application and has not granted her a journalist visa. Pia Haraldsen is a graduate in media and communications at Goldsmiths College in London, is a member of the Norwegian Journalists association and have international press cards."
Enclosed the video link and some photos.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1iNH7W9SC8[/url][/QUOTE]That's funny. Guess Oddo was having a bad day. He looked annoyed as hell.
I'd have thrown her out to for asking such inane and unfunny questions, her wannabe Borat approach was 4th great drama class at best. Maybe would have asked for her phone number first though...
And now she's restricted from entering the US and can't fully execute her job as a international journalist, not that she seemed to have much talent anyway. Maybe she ought to try porn.
Rejected... now who laughs last, Pia?
An gross overreaction for sure on Oddo's part, but still give the guy some credit...
Oddo: 1
Pia: 0
One small step in the emanzipation of the male species in America.
[QUOTE=Doctor_Skank]That's funny. Guess Oddo was having a bad day. He looked annoyed as hell.
I'd have thrown her out to for asking such inane and unfunny questions, her wannabe Borat approach was 4th great drama class at best. Maybe would have asked for her phone number first though...
And now she's restricted from entering the US and can't fully execute her job as a international journalist, not that she seemed to have much talent anyway. Maybe she ought to try porn.
Rejected... now who laughs last, Pia?
An gross overreaction for sure on Oddo's part, but still give the guy some credit...
Oddo: 1
Pia: 0
One small step in the emanzipation of the male species in America.[/QUOTE]
She have "punked" numerous of politicians thought the world, and have met more important people than this "gentleman". Keep in mind she is just acting, and yes, Mr. Oddo made a complete fool out of himself.
I dont think she is so funny at all, but she is not a criminal. What is surprising is the fact that US authorities refused her to perform her work. It would hardly have happened in any other Western country.
It looks more and more like an Obama landslide, many of the battleground states that were favoring McCain are now strongly Obama. The attacks Palin has been chucking at Obama like Bill Ayers is absolutely lame. Honestly if an idiot like Palin gets into the White House, and you know she will take over for McFossil who is too old, America is screwed.
Pollster and RealPolitics which tracks all major polls show Obama at 330 to 341 safe or leaning electoral votes.
[QUOTE=Balluba]She have "punked" numerous of politicians thought the world, and have met more important people than this "gentleman". Keep in mind she is just acting, and yes, Mr. Oddo made a complete fool out of himself.
I dont think she is so funny at all, but she is not a criminal. What is surprising is the fact that US authorities refused her to perform her work. It would hardly have happened in any other Western country.[/QUOTE]Frankly I'm surprised as well.... especially to a Norwegian citizen. US-Norwegian relations are generally very good. One of the few friends the US has left. Maybe there was more to it than we know? Perhaps Oddo filed a grudge or something. Regrettably, some people can't take a joke.
As for her, I know she's acting, she's just not doing it very well. Her delivery is terrible. Maybe she has better work out there, but that skit was lame.
[QUOTE=Doctor_Skank] Maybe she has better work out there, but that skit was lame.[/QUOTE]
The rumors in Norway says she was gangbanged of 5 Afro Americans the night before this interview, therefore, she was a little bit put out.
Oh'well - what do I know.
[QUOTE=Balluba]The rumors in Norway says she was gangbanged of 5 Afro Americans the night before this interview, therefore, she was a little bit put out.
Oh'well - what do I know.[/QUOTE]Could be, been known to happen. That or 5 Mexican gardeners.
Actually a lot of people from countries closely aligned with the US have been given a boot on their asses. An Australian girl this year was deported out of the US after she was discovered to overstay her visa, they also put her in a detention center for a while. Not a big deal since Aussie immigration has given a hard time to US citizens many times in the past.
[QUOTE=Balluba]"The Norwegian stunt reporter Pia Haraldsen would cover the U.S. election campaign for Norwegian TV 2 Entertainment, but the Americans remembered her previous performance as a reporter. Therefore, they said no to grant her journalist visa.[/QUOTE]
Her performance was really harmless, but this Odda guy, whoever he's in the food chain, made a total fool of himself. No politician, nor PR-staff can afford to (re)act like he did. His lack of humor, will bring more jokes deriding on the subject. Wow, so he barred a blond Norwegian from obtaining journalist visa to the US? Wouldn't surprise me if she entered the country as 'tourist'. No visa required.
Note this is quite common procedure for journalist working in... hmm.. difficult areas.
[QUOTE=Doctor_Skank]Frankly I'm surprised as well.... especially to a Norwegian citizen. US-Norwegian relations are generally very good. One of the few friends the US has left.[/QUOTE]
I think one gets the true temperature of one's own country by looking at it from outside. I have had American friends hassled at the U.K. border. And if you've ever been strip searched by your own lot you see a different side.
But there is still a sliding scale. I personally avoid flying via America now if I can, even if it means paying slightly more. The hassles at security might be understandable but they are a nuisance. And the invasion of privacy demanded by U.S. security on personal details of all passengers now is offensive to my European sensibilities (not that our own politicians are that much behind!)
My brothers: please, this board is about American Women, right?
And before you explain how it's all connected, yeah right. I can link the price of yak butter in Nepal to OJ's conviction to why AM's are so fatass. But I won't.
Thanks. Peace.
[QUOTE=Yogin]My brothers: please, this board is about American Women, right?
Thanks. Peace.[/QUOTE]
LOL. Its american politics guy
[QUOTE=Yogin]My brothers: please, this board is about American Women, right?
Thanks. Peace.[/QUOTE]
Hahah! Funny :-D
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]
...the final straw in the hay, and America's day as an economic superpower will now come to an end...[/QUOTE]
I always enjoy reading your posts and predictions.
The United States hit the depths of the Great Depression in 1932-1933 and by 1945 it's global position as a superpower was relatively greater than at any time before and, some might say, any time since. So, it's difficult to say a financial crisis indicates predestination of anything.
When the Great Depression happened, the Nazis came to power, Japan began expanding its empire and World War 2 happened, the US asserted itself and became the dominant military power in the world. This time around the playing field is becoming more even with third world nations like China and India becoming major players, globalization has changed the whole world economic game and now a lot of third world countries like China and India will move into first world status over the next couple of decades. More countries are becoming nuclear capable and that means the US can't just attack anyone. Look at the limp response towards the Russian invasion of Georgia. The US was also a creditor nation in the early 20th Century now we borrow money from China just so the government can operate. The EU now also meddles with some of our largest corporations such as Microsoft. As a society the US is more divided these days than it was in the last century where it was given that if you wanted to go somewhere you needed get rid of the habits from the old country and be an American. These days in your typical American city multiculturalism has made America a divided nation.
Also this financial crisis could not come at a worse time. Everyone knows Obama is going to become the next President, his lead is widening with every bad news report about the economy. The bailout for Wall Street and the financial system will be so big, he won't have any money left for his ambitious alternative energy program, tax cuts for middle class people, etc.
Still I don't think the US will collapse outright, it will just become another country and another chess piece in the global game. The unipolar moment that existed since 1989 is clearly over.
[QUOTE=Rastaman]Barack Obama will clean up the mess left by the Republicans, particularly by the current 'buffoon' in the White House.[/QUOTE]I wish him the best of luck, however the damage already done is massive. Moreover, not only the presdential clown is responsible, but also the American people as well. Silliness.
[QUOTE=Doctor_Skank]I wish him the best of luck, however the damage already done is massive. Moreover, not only the presdential clown is responsible, but also the American people as well. Silliness.[/QUOTE]
How can You say so ? Its a proven fact that this is not true ;-)
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJuNgBkloFE[/url]
Affirmative Action?
Sure it helped WOMEN too... Nobody seems to remember that. Its one of those "things" attached to Black People only.
If Affirmative Action is BAD, then so is Cronyism. People should be able to qualify for whatever position they seek based on qualifications set by the employee/owner. You should not get run Daddy's Company just because you have Daddy's Blood, if you in turn RUN IT INTO THE GROUND (which has been done more times than I can bother to count). Entitlement is fully embedded in Anglo culture, keeps Women and Minorities out of successful positions, makes sure they earn less than White Males.
Is it any accident that just about every Fortune 500 company run by some White Guy (old or young, crony connected or entitled, you take your pick)?
When Women and Minorities were not EXTENDED the same opportunities. Yes the Vice Chairman of Coke-A-Cola is Black and the CEO of Ebay is a Woman but gee I hardly call that an achievement, I call that TOKENISM.
I say we'll stop as Black people making race an issue when White people stop making it an issue. When somebody says Black people are only voting for Obama because he's Black that's utter nonsense when Blacks have been voting Dem since Kennedy. Of course we are proud Obama has made it this far because despite being Bi-Racial, he's the "Black" or "African-American" would-be President by "liberal" and "conservative" 99.9% White owned media, the ONE DROP rule...
When people just say Obama is just another highly educated MAN and not have to add a modifier to his name, then we have turned the page on this subject, but NOT until then.
Finally, we shouldn't have to made to accept "racist" attitudes. Jews don't let you get away with it, why should we? Jews largely own the media, so you'll get tar and feathered if you say something racist about Jews ...
Blacks don't have that kind of power, but to only POINT fingers, which is AUTOMATICALLY called into question in these early days of Neo-Liberalism....
Neo Conservatives and Neo Liberals have no place in our culture they are the extremes sides of idealogies run amuck.
Sorry but China and Russia have proved to the world what most in the West have denied. A politically incorrect dictatorship can bring prosperity as both nations show both.
Lets face reality, America has been living high on the hog for too long, and Americans have gotten used to living on credit. The US is the only country in the world where people in "poor" areas can be seen driving Mercedes and BMWs, the rest of the world has to buy them with cash or with far stricter credit terms. Why? Because of auto financing and easy access to credit. In fact when I was in New York there were dealerships in rough areas whose lots werefilled with fairly new high end luxury cars and even the new ones were sold to people with questionable credit.
The same has gone with the housing market, up until recently all you needed was a pulse to get a home loan. Much of those loans were financed by foreigners whose appetite to fund American's way of excess is now starting to run out.
The loosening of credit happened well before the Bush administration showed up, it started in the 1990s. The Bush administration just made the US look like an inconsiderate bully in the eyes of the world which influences how foreigners perceive us when they decide to invest the money that allows the liquidity for us to live high. Now the US has few friends, even long time allies like Australia, Britain, and Japan are now turning their backs on the US to newer rising powers.
The blame is being placed on Bush but the everyday people who voted for him..twice are to blame, even the people who did not vote for him, who lived irresponsibly above their means are to blame for this mess.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]The blame is being placed on Bush but the everyday people who voted for him..twice are to blame, even the people who did not vote for him, who lived irresponsibly above their means are to blame for this mess.[/QUOTE]Exactamundo. QFT.
I can still hate Bush for being a gigantic turd though.
Honestly to get a real feel of the state of America, avoid the coastal cities, and see the Midwest, especially the rust belt states of Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Michigan. The US economy is a shadow of its former self. I hear bullshit talkers say that the loss of American manufacturing is irrelevant. Also that Muslim slimeball who works for Newsweek, Fareed Zakaria who loves to make his spitting on America look like he is cheering for America say that an idea economy will take the place of manufacturing is rubbish(ie designing Ipods rather than manufacturing them). Many European countries also have sizable knowledge based economies yet manufacturing is still seen as a bulwark of the working classes. Japan is another economy that is widely seen as knowledge based, in some areas Japanese technology surpasses the US, yet manufacturing is still key to that nation's prosperity. India's idea economy has not lifted its masses out of poverty, and it would be frightening if the US resembled India in another 20 to 30 years, with an ultra rich elite and the masses in poverty. Not everyone is cut out to become a scientist, engineer, or internet entrepreneur. China has largely lifted itself from a third world basket case to a soon to be superpower through manufacturing, and despite having many desperately poor people, its middle class is rapidly growing, still most people are poor, but two or three decades in the future things will be different in that Asian nation.
I don't like Bush either but the US is a democracy and the people elected Bush. A sizable portion of the population bought into his hypocritical nonsense. I recall when running for reelection in 2004 at a rally he was standing on top of a giant W, and the morons surrounding him were cheering.
Oh I forgot to correct myself, the Russians did not invade Georgia, they were responding to Georgia's incursion of breakaway South Ossetia. Still the US was heavily courting Georgia, and the lack of support shows that US power in the world is declining.
Right now I would liken the US to a passenger jet about to crash. I think Obama would lead to a soft landing while McCain would pretty much lead to a fiery crash. And Palin....start praying to God, that woman has is completely out of her league.
I never voted for Bush and I never borrowed a dime in my life (except for mortgages that were well within my ability to re-pay, and which I did pay off). I never lived beyond my means. I never carried a credit card balance. I never had a car loan. I saved money every single paycheck since I started working at 14.
I'm ruined now anyway. I'll never be able to retire.
Who was in power when the Great Depression started? Republicans. Who was in power during the '73-'74 bear market? Republicans. Who was in power in the '87 stock market crash? Republicans.
Does anyone see a pattern here?
In Australia, the education ministries are now beginning to require young people to learn Asian languages, Mandarin in particular. Even the wealthy in America are hiring Chinese au pairs to teach their children about Chinese language and culture. Why? They see a growing pattern where Asia is becoming an economic force to be reckoned with, despite the financial turmoil in the US and UK, the major Asian nations will still continue growing although somewhat at a slower pace. Goldman Sachs predicts China will surpass the US around 2041 in terms of nominal GDP, another sources places the year 2020 when the Asian nation becomes the biggest economy in the world.
Also the major oil producers such as Russia and OPEC aren't really experiencing any major problems. In fact its Christmas in Moscow.
I never voted for Bush either and I never really accumulated much consumer debt. Still the fact remains that as much as 85 percent of Americans live day to day on credit. Would you then understand why this credit crunch is causing mass panic?
One thing that this election has exposed about America, is that the racial divide still remains, it was particularly so during the nomination process for the Democratic candidate, it was completely a double edged sword, white voters who supported Clinton felt cheated, and if Obama lost many black voters felt the same. The racial problem is extending into the main election, you can bet
that if Obama loses, its going to cause serious friction in America, and even if he wins, many people in more conservative regions of the US will resent his message of change. I am completely shocked that I will be seeing the decline of the US in my lifetime. The next 20 to 30 years will be among the most unstable the planet has ever seen, probably worse than the first half of the 20th Century, I am just wondering who the next Hitler may be.
[QUOTE=Dickhead]I never voted for Bush and I never borrowed a dime in my life (except for mortgages that were well within my ability to re-pay, and which I did pay off). I never lived beyond my means. I never carried a credit card balance. I never had a car loan. I saved money every single paycheck since I started working at 14.
I'm ruined now anyway. I'll never be able to retire.
Who was in power when the Great Depression started? Republicans. Who was in power during the '73-'74 bear market? Republicans. Who was in power in the '87 stock market crash? Republicans.
Does anyone see a pattern here?[/QUOTE]
Its a pattern and shouldn't shock anybody. This is not talked about in American History class.
As somebody said Naomi Klein earlier this week -
"The extreme LEFT has been made to take ownership of their failed ideology"
(Communism, Socialism, etc)
"The Right has not been made to take ownership of its failure"
With this world wide economic meltdown, maybe, FINALLY with Obama as the leader we can again make companies accountable to their customers and make Government work for the PEOPLE, not Big Business, Not Wall Street, Not Special or Extreme interest.
It will be a very slow and painful process and lives will be lost in the battle, but it HAS to happen. We can't let them build it all up and then let it breakdown and have Government give them a handout for wrong-doing. It makes very little sense to anybody how Wall Street gets bailed out, but the average voter/citizen isn't.
Europeans take this for granted but for once I rather my worry about the Government increasing our taxes slightly to continue paying for our health care system and educational system that is otherwise ultra low cost or free, entitled just like Social Security.
And not when we'll stop out spending every country in the world 2 times over on the military. Just cutting that budget by a 1/3rd would pay for all the social programs Obama wants.
That is going to be easier said than done. Corporations had power in America well before W showed up. The gap between rich and poor widened during the Clinton administration, it continued the pattern during W. I doubt this will improve under Obama, if anything he is becoming more establishment, I could see him become more pressured to adopt more conservative views, especially the pro-Israel lobby in America will be all over him like peanut butter on bread. He picked Joe Biden as his VP, and he is as Washington as usual as they come.
The reality is that Europe is moving away from America, I will bet in a decade NATO will not exist, the whole Transatlantic alliance was undone by W. The kind of social programs that Europe has and their system would not work well in a heterogeneous country like the USA. This economic crisis is now spreading into Europe, the most severe since the 1930s, so don't assume that
Europe will continue in its current direction.
In Germany for example, a far right party known as the NPD, a more modern version of the Nazi party is gaining power in the former East Germany. Austria is seeing the same. The far right will be gaining serious ground in Europe, especially with a sour European economy, Islamic terrorism, threats from Russia and Iran, count on it.
China and Russia will exert influence all over Asia. Already many key nations in the Pacific are turning towards more friendly relations with the Chinese. Most notably Japan, which was once the mortal enemy of China.
We can bicker on this for hours. Bottom line is we only thought we didn't have much of a choice in 2004. Absolutely unbelievable that the choices got worse. I guess I will vote for McCain as being an oil industry employee I think I am safer there but by a very small margin. Either way we are screwed, it has been that way for years. The working man has no party.
Sadly you are right, the Democrats have done little for the poor and disadvantaged of America, they say they will do things but then once in power, they forget where they come from. Look at Hilary and Bill, living a life of luxury in New York. Obama's net worth will baloon to some ridiculously high figures, he even gets Xmas cards from major celebs, sure Tom Cruise is just like the rest of us. If you want a more fair society, I suggest just leaving the US and migrate to the EU, Canada, Australia/NZ. I did it in 2000 when times were generally much better than now.
These days Asia is becoming the apple of my eye. The amount of progress and development that is occurring at such a rapid rate in that part of the world is astounding. People just have to get used to the fact that America's hey days are over. Oh well, another chapter in the history of mankind is coming to a close. Its a general pattern of history, an unpopular subject, but rings true even in this interconnected global world.
CB is right. Several of the more exclusive Manhattan private schools now offer Mandarin on the curriculum. Here in Colombia it's becoming common, students are now required to take English, and also offered French German and Mandarin, and not just at the exclusive joints either, but even in the poorer neighborhoods.
It seems now that its time to start learning Mandarin Chinese. Hindi will probably also become more useful as that is another growing giant.
[QUOTE=Beavis]We can bicker on this for hours. Bottom line is we only thought we didn't have much of a choice in 2004. Absolutely unbelievable that the choices got worse. I guess I will vote for McCain as being an oil industry employee I think I am safer there but by a very small margin. Either way we are screwed, it has been that way for years. The working man has no party.[/QUOTE]
To each his own and honestly do you think Obama would have gotten this far if he had -
A) Adopted the typical positions of a 60's Civil Rights Activist?
B) Took Jimmy Carter's Populace position, in which the Blue Dogs and other Corp owned Dems then put the Super Delegate process in place to PREVENT such a thing from happening again!
He's gotten this far by having a mainly centric position. C'mon you guys aren't really that stupid to think he could have come out "Blacker" than the Ace of Spades and gotten this far????
They attack him for listening to Ludacris for CS!
Look the Dems do better overall. CBGB glosses over the FACT that Clinton's Populace position was CHANGED by Greenspan and others shortly after his first day in office and INFORMED him he wasn't going to have the money in the budget to do a National Health Care system and the Tax Cuts for the Middle he wanted. Greenspan said, the only thing promise you can keep from your run up to the presidency is reduce the national debt.
You can argue the tiny bits if you want, like if the books were cooked by Greenspan, Robert Reich and Others from his cabinet or not.
The point was Bill Clinton was angry he wasn't going to be able too keep his promises...
W. and Regan were puppets for the real agenda of the Neo Conservatives and Project New American Century.
This is the 2nd time conservatives have put the country into the toilet!
McCain is done like a Christmas Turkey for his White Trash Rally Outbust and for Palin the Liar fanning the flames; thinly veiled racial attacks and Obama's numbers just keep heading North. Wed's final debate will nail it and 70-75% of the country will end up voting in this election, because "Its the Economy Again Stupid!"
Funny about voting for McSain because you're employeed by BP, Royal Dutch Shell, Chevron, Total, Getty or Occidental. That's like voting for McCain because your employed by Raytheon.... Support the Troops huh? Farce homie, a total Farce.
Nothing was WORST than W being in office! Well maybe Hoover but that's for another thread.
I am not a Republican, I just know for a fact that the Democrats are not the working man's friend either. When the vote for military action was passed, a majority of the Democrats, including Hilary C and John Kerry voted for the invasion. On many issues they water down their ambitious programs. The US will never have the kind of social safety net that people in Western Europe, Australia, and Canada enjoy.
Also equal blame has to placed on Americans for their own bad habits. People live high on the hog in America, live well above their means, go into debt. Americans also buy into the stupidity on network and Cable TV with all those "reality" shows about rich people and try to emulate those people. Lets face it people like Lauren Conrad, Brooke Hogan, and Paris Hilton do not represent the average American. Now people are blaming the banks for enticing them to live on credit. The door swings both ways. I have seen the way Europeans and Australians live, and they are much more conscious of not going overboard, although some Aussies lately have become Americanized, still buying things on credit is still somewhat a taboo in Oz compared to the US, there is even a chain of electronics stores that offers discounts to customers that pay for purchases in cash. Australians know that when you finance a car for example, you do not own the vehicle, the bank owns it.
Tom Brokaw asked a tricky question, about how American ability to influence the world will change during a time of economic slowdown. McCain completely avoided the question while Obama indirectly said that the US power is in decline. Obama will win but the damage from the last eight years will be very difficult to overcome. Due the ease of communications most people around the world will know that nearly half of the US will disagree with Obama anyway. World leaders are now becoming aware of the wide swings in ideology in the American executive office, that is why many countries are looking to limit US power, and why the world is becoming multipolar.
I still like Obama more, I was a passenger on a jet that was about to crash, I would like a pilot that could complete a soft landing. Obama is that pilot. McCain and Palin are clueless nimrods that would send that plane into a fiery crash. This twat talks family values yet her daughter gets knocked up by some punk. I was also shocked at some of the moronic things people at McCain rallies said, there was one middle aged woman who said Obama is an Arab, it reminded me of why I moved out of the US, as I said its people like that woman who have collectively created the mess that exists today.
[QUOTE=Jelly Donut]The United States hit the depths of the Great Depression in 1932-1933 and by 1945 it's global position as a superpower was relatively greater than at any time before and, some might say, any time since. So, it's difficult to say a financial crisis indicates predestination of anything.[/QUOTE]
Well said. In fact financial crisis and depression will normally predestine better economic policy - the election of Liberal Democrats and the return of proper redistributionist Keynesianism.
Well, we shall soon find out.
[QUOTE=Opebo]Well said. In fact financial crisis and depression will normally predestine better economic policy - the election of Liberal Democrats and the return of proper redistributionist Keynesianism.[/QUOTE]
My point was more about trying to predict the future. I would not hazard a vocal guess at what the stock market is going to do tomorrow, who is going win the next election or what the configuration of global power will be in 20 years. I don't romantize economic ideas or politicians (unless they have been dead for a very long time).
"Not that I condone fascism, or any -ism for that matter. -Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself." - Ferris Bueller
It's not obvious to me (hanging out in my swing state) that increasing taxes or more protectionism is going to help move the US economy forward. The history of the 1930's suggests those kinds of policies are bad ideas. Anyway, we already redistribute huge amounts of money through the US government, far more than we did during the 1930's. The whole sub-prime thing was about as redistributionist as it gets.
In my experience, redistributing money through government hurts people when they expect or feel they are entitled to it. I heard this one AW recently - "If I can only get into public housing all be all set". That's a person who does not believe in herself. I don't see that as an attitude that's going to get the country on the right track.
Contrast that attitude with, say, a doctor who works her way through college and medical school and post-medical school training. She puts in years of effort toward a difficult goal, accumulating massive debt on the way. As things are right now, she pays a disproportionate part of her income toward Federal taxes, but the blue Congress (and O) wants her to pay more. When you increase taxes, it kills [i]something[/i] off, government takes it's cut, but it's not always the case that something good comes of the transfer.
So, anyway, thanks for the "well said", but it's not clear to me that a better economic policy is waiting in the wings.
[QUOTE=Jelly Donut]My point was more about trying to predict the future. I would not hazard a vocal guess at what the stock market is going to do tomorrow, who is going win the next election or what the configuration of global power will be in 20 years. I don't romantize economic ideas or politicians (unless they have been dead for a very long time).
"Not that I condone fascism, or any -ism for that matter. -Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself." - Ferris Bueller
It's not obvious to me (hanging out in my swing state) that increasing taxes or more protectionism is going to help move the US economy forward. The history of the 1930's suggests those kinds of policies are bad ideas. Anyway, we already redistibute huge amounts of money through the US government, far more than we did during the 1930's. The whole sub-prime thing was about as redistributionist as it gets.
In my experience, redistributing money through government hurts people when they expect or feel they are entitled to it. I heard this one AW recently - "If I can only get into public housing all be all set". That's a person who does not believe in herself. I don't see that as an attitude that's going to get the country on the right track.
Contrast that attitude with, say, a doctor who works her way through college and medical school and post-medical school training. She puts in years of effort toward a difficult goal, accumulating massive debt on the way. As things are right now, she pays a disproportionate part of her income toward Federal taxes, but the blue Congress (and O) wants her to pay more. When you increase taxes, it kills [i]something[/i] off, government takes it's cut, but it's not always the case that something good comes of the transfer.
So, anyway, thanks for the "well said", but it's not clear to me that a better economic policy waiting in the wings.[/QUOTE]
I could relate to the latter as it describes my own life, working hard was just what I did. Still a lot of people are the former and to me that is not a good sign. Anyhow we cannot predict the future but history can hint at a lot of possible things that might happen down the road.
Obama or McCain, I am certain Americans are going to pay higher taxes with this nearly $1 Trillion bailout. Its ridiculous how now the elites in the Ivory Tower that is Wall Street want the government to help them from sinking, at the same time they support policies that screw over everyday working people.
America became a great and strong power because of its massive middle class, the greatest social cushion between rich and poor in history, which allowed it so much stability. Europe was the opposite during the first half of the century and hence its political problems were severe during those times. Not all poor people are looking to milk the government, not everyone is fortunate in life.
McCain is too old and if he becomes unfit to perform his duties as President, America will be stuck with Palin, who will probably be worse than Bush. McCain only picked her in a lame attempt to get former Hilary supporters. Now that plan is burning down as the economic crisis continues to unfold. The policies of the last eight years have been absolutely horrific, if they continue, its definitely going to lead to a disaster.
[QUOTE=Dickhead]I never voted for Bush and I never borrowed a dime in my life (except for mortgages that were well within my ability to re-pay, and which I did pay off). I never lived beyond my means. I never carried a credit card balance. I never had a car loan. I saved money every single paycheck since I started working at 14.
I'm ruined now anyway. I'll never be able to retire.
Who was in power when the Great Depression started? Republicans. Who was in power during the '73-'74 bear market? Republicans. Who was in power in the '87 stock market crash? Republicans.
Does anyone see a pattern here?[/QUOTE]
Many of the underlying tenets of American political partys have evolved to the point where they bear no resmeblance to their original forms. The Republican party of today does not resemble the GOP pre-Nixon...think the old Gipper...the icon of conservatism...he used to be a liberal democrat who most famously stated:" I didn't leave the democratic party, it left me."
[QUOTE=DJ FourMoney]
Funny about voting for McSain because you're employeed by BP, Royal Dutch Shell, Chevron, Total, Getty or Occidental. That's like voting for McCain because your employed by Raytheon.... Support the Troops huh? Farce homie, a total Farce.
Nothing was WORST than W being in office! Well maybe Hoover but that's for another thread.[/QUOTE]
All Politics is Local.
Look, even though I would not have the gall to state this outside of an internet forum, and as selfish and myopic as this is:
I think God for George W. Bush's War in Iraq. And I am not the only one that thinks this.
Iraq saved me...at one time I lost my USG job, my wife turned her back on me, my pockets were empty, I was 25k in debt with no way to pay it, my family damn near disowned me, and I had no purpose in life.
I took a job with a dirt bag defense contractor soley on basis of a resume--no interview--hire, wiped out my debt in three months....25k is a lot of money for me to come up with in cash, but not in Iraq,...got my security clearance in order, went back to Iraq with a consulting firm at an outrageous salary, came home and worked for said firm, gained invaluable experience which translated into more assignments in other parts of the world, and now I am getting 1-3 job offers a month all over the world for great money and even an greater benefits package.
All because of Iraq.
Selfish, yes, but I'd vote for W again if I could.
I'd love to see a brotha from 116th and Broadway in the WH :)..but even more so I want to keep the good times rolling for myself.
Fucked up. Maybe..but it is what it is.
[QUOTE=DirkDingy]All Politics is Local.
Look, even though I would not have the gall to state this outside of an internet forum, and as selfish and myopic as this is:
I think God for George W. Bush's War in Iraq. And I am not the only one that thinks this.
Iraq saved me...at one time I lost my USG job, my wife turned her back on me, my pockets were empty, I was 25k in debt with no way to pay it, my family damn near disowned me, and I had no purpose in life.
I took a job with a dirt bag defense contractor soley on basis of a resume--no interview--hire, wiped out my debt in three months....25k is a lot of money for me to come up with in cash, but not in Iraq,...got my security clearance in order, went back to Iraq with a consulting firm at an outrageous salary, came home and worked for said firm, gained invaluable experience which translated into more assignments in other parts of the world, and now I am getting 1-3 job offers a month all over the world for great money and even an greater benefits package.
All because of Iraq.
Slefish, yes, but I'd vote for W again if I could.
I'd love to see a brotha from 116th and Broadway in the WH :)..but even more so I want to keep the good times rolling for myself.
Fucked up. Maybe..but it is what it is.[/QUOTE]
Me and you don’t agree on a lot of things but we do have something in common here.
It's unfortunate, but a lot of wealth is built on the misery and suffering of others.: Take the Russian Oligarchs;they robbed the state's coffers to become billiionaires as the old babushkas were starving. 2. How about the wall street execs...they destroyed the lives of many americans by knowingly misleading them but they got their million dollars bonuses and their unemployment will be mollified with their golden parachutes..take the Kennedy family, Fitz Kennedy got rich by trading with the Nazis, operating speakesays, and bootlegging...citibank, the bagman for the Nazis, many other european firms got rich by appropriating jewish property and wealth... AIG, got rich off the African Slave trade....there are too many examples to count...the best way to go from zero to hero in a flash is to be in a position to take advantage of other's misfortunes.
Well, yes, Dirk, wars are good for creating full employment. That's one reason recent Republican administrations have typically started them. Wars are good for spending one's way out of a depression (Opebo's Keynesian economics) as well. But let's not forget the "peace dividend" after the collapse of the former Soviet Union. That was a big catalyst for the economic boom of the 1990s which enabled many of us to monger profligately and internationally.
But, we fucked that all up and it is all over now so it is time to put the shoulder to the wheel and the nose to the grindstone again. When the revolution finally comes we'll get rid of all that shit but I'll be dead by then so good luck to those mongers who remain. It sure was fun while it lasted.
[QUOTE=DirkDingy]Look, even though I would not have the gall to state this outside of an internet forum, and as selfish and myopic as this is:
I think God for George W. Bush's War in Iraq. And I am not the only one that thinks this.
Fucked up. Maybe..but it is what it is.[/QUOTE]Even a US military victory in Iraq... which can only be measured by withdrawing from Iraq and leaving behind a stable pro-US government and infrastructure to support US investments there... will have come at a tremendous cost. The military can handle material and personnel losses... the cost the nation has to bear however has to be measured not only financially, but politically and socially as well.
Just as you fondly look back at what personal good the Iraq war has brought you, W can also look back at the war and hope that it brought some personal profit for himself. It did the nation no good, and the nation should have been his (and our) priority.
Maybe history will judge our times differently than I do now, but from here it looks like a colossal cock-up.
BTW RE: contracting... I doubt the US government will be able to continue it's free-spending ways re: contracting. I considered it awhile myself (and have met lots of ex-military, ex-LE guys who are working in Iraq/Astan/Africa), but wonder how the US will be able to afford paying these companies. The costs are incredible.
[QUOTE=Dickhead]Well, yes, Dirk, wars are good for creating full employment. That's one reason recent Republican administrations have typically started them. Wars are good for spending one's way out of a depression (Opebo's Keynesian economics) as well. But let's not forget the "peace dividend" after the collapse of the former Soviet Union. That was a big catalyst for the economic boom of the 1990s which enabled many of us to monger profligately and internationally.
But, we fucked that all up and it is all over now so it is time to put the shoulder to the wheel and the nose to the grindstone again. When the revolution finally comes we'll get rid of all that shit but I'll be dead by then so good luck to those mongers who remain. It sure was fun while it lasted.[/QUOTE]
This is only true when a nation fully mobilizes. The last time we did this was WWII. During WWII all Americans were asked to make sacrifices and contribute to the war effort; W told us to go shopping after 9/11.
This war, with all its outsourcing, has only enhanced the pocketbooks of a few select companies--like kbr, dyncorp, blackwater, saic, etc.
for me, a person works in the international development arena, it provided unique opportunities. many of these companies and their personnel are left leaning and refused to go to Iraq for political as well as operational security issues. this fact, coupled with the sheer size of the programs in Iraq meant that there were vacancies that were not filled with the normal cadre of experienced professionals so many young, smart, but inexperienced people were thrust into jobs which would normally only be filled with sr. development professionals that had long domestic careers before they went abroad--maybe this a bad thing.
once this experience is gained in MSME (Micro Small Medium Enterprise), penions reform, infrastructure. it’s transferable to other development projects elsewhere.
that's what iraq did for me.
There is a big problem with this war being able to stimulate the American economy. The money to fight the war is coming from overseas, its just increasing the national debt. Lowering taxes in a time of war is leading to deficits which is disastrous.
The war in Iraq right now is turning around but I doubt it will continue, its already becoming clear that all Iraq did was pave the way for Iran to become the big player in the region. Despite the Bush Doctrine, nothing has been done about Tehran. The Israelis predict Tehran will go nuclear by next year which contradicts the NIE report that said Tehran abandoned the development of WMD. Most people consider Israeli intelligence to be the best in the world.
[QUOTE=DirkDingy]It's unfortunate, but a lot of wealth is built on the misery and suffering of others.[/QUOTE]
All wealth is [b]by definition[/b] the misery and suffering of others, DD.
[QUOTE=Jelly Donut]My point was more about trying to predict the future. I would not hazard a vocal guess at what the stock market is going to do tomorrow, who is going win the next election or what the configuration of global power will be in 20 years. I don't romantize economic ideas or politicians (unless they have been dead for a very long time).
"Not that I condone fascism, or any -ism for that matter. -Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself." - Ferris Bueller
It's not obvious to me (hanging out in my swing state) that increasing taxes or more protectionism is going to help move the US economy forward. The history of the 1930's suggests those kinds of policies are bad ideas. Anyway, we already redistribute huge amounts of money through the US government, far more than we did during the 1930's. The whole sub-prime thing was about as redistributionist as it gets.
In my experience, redistributing money through government hurts people when they expect or feel they are entitled to it. I heard this one AW recently - "If I can only get into public housing all be all set". That's a person who does not believe in herself. I don't see that as an attitude that's going to get the country on the right track.
Contrast that attitude with, say, a doctor who works her way through college and medical school and post-medical school training. She puts in years of effort toward a difficult goal, accumulating massive debt on the way. As things are right now, she pays a disproportionate part of her income toward Federal taxes, but the blue Congress (and O) wants her to pay more. When you increase taxes, it kills [i]something[/i] off, government takes it's cut, but it's not always the case that something good comes of the transfer.
So, anyway, thanks for the "well said", but it's not clear to me that a better economic policy is waiting in the wings.[/QUOTE]
However if you start from today and reduce cost of school that you're only in debt for a short amount of time (maybe 5 years after medical school). Germans for example go to school for free, even to become a doctor but only get paid about $35-40K a year, just because we're "America' you should get paid mid to high six digits for the same job????
America is one of the few places that caring for people can make you rich.... Yet teachers get paid hardly anything and are expect to produce high quality adults.... Hmmm
Okay but you have to remember, I don't recall anybody making $250,000 a year complaining that they pay too much tax. The truth is, most high income Americans AVOID paying taxes the best way they can, sometimes legally, sometimes NOT - See Castroneves
Tax Shelters are very popular, so it hiding your money overseas in the Cayman Islands and Swiss Bank Accounts....
Close those loop holes and THEN you might see some complaining...
But this whole NOTION of not paying taxes I find a bit strange, how else do things in America get done without them??? Most people complain because the Government doesn't WORK for them when they pay taxes. Why do you think the outcry for the original "Bail Out" so large?
That's because the typical Neo-Conservative playbook says trickle down economics work, when intelligent people KNOW better. FDR proved Trickle Up economics works and works WELL. It just doesn't allow somebody to make ridiculous amounts of money for basically pushing paper around, you can still make a good living but ONE Benz is enough.
I don't care how or even why you make alot of money, just don't poo-poo me when I want National Health Care and your taxes will increase SLIGHTLY because of it and you really won't notice it, no reason to complain or even say Republicans are speaking on your behalf....
[QUOTE=Opebo]All wealth is [b]by definition[/b] the misery and suffering of others, DD.[/QUOTE]
No truer words have been spoken....
DD I don't playa hate, you and Daddy got yours from the War because there so few chances to do it the legit way in America because of your skin color.
I was bored and looking through the generally interesting postings of Doctor Skank, which lead me here. I generally ignore most Op-Ed pieces because they aren't worth my time to reply to....but...
In which alternative reality world are you talking about a prosperous China and Russia? Both countries oppress their large working class while the tiny minority elite benefit. The only change is that a slightly larger administrative middle class has emerged. The Russian economy can not survive oil going under $50/barrel – which it is headed to after the election. How many times have their stock markets shut down in the last 30 days? China is a country of what –1.2 billion, where 800 million still live in the same serf like conditions that they have for the last several hundred years.
As far as the rest of what you said I really don’t know where to begin, you seem to be just throwing statements from your own personal ideology out there like they are fact.
The blame for this mess can be squarely placed at the feet of financial deregulation and a US economy stalled by the Bush administration policies. Deregulation, started in the 80’s by RR, continued by GHWB, BC and brought to new levels of obscenity by the W administration. Notice how I didn’t say W himself, who as he has for most of his ‘professional’ life been nothing but a dupe and a front man. The sub prime market collapse was nothing more then a catalyst that brought the Wall Street house of cards down. Just as the credit calls for the margin players in 1929 brought about that crash and the Great Depression.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]Sorry but China and Russia have proved to the world what most in the West have denied. A politically incorrect dictatorship can bring prosperity as both nations show both.
Lets face reality, America has been living high on the hog for too long, and Americans have gotten used to living on credit. The US is the only country in the world where people in "poor" areas can be seen driving Mercedes and BMWs, the rest of the world has to buy them with cash or with far stricter credit terms. Why? Because of auto financing and easy access to credit. In fact when I was in New York there were dealerships in rough areas whose lots werefilled with fairly new high end luxury cars and even the new ones were sold to people with questionable credit.
The same has gone with the housing market, up until recently all you needed was a pulse to get a home loan. Much of those loans were financed by foreigners whose appetite to fund American's way of excess is now starting to run out.
The loosening of credit happened well before the Bush administration showed up, it started in the 1990s. The Bush administration just made the US look like an inconsiderate bully in the eyes of the world which influences how foreigners perceive us when they decide to invest the money that allows the liquidity for us to live high. Now the US has few friends, even long time allies like Australia, Britain, and Japan are now turning their backs on the US to newer rising powers.
The blame is being placed on Bush but the everyday people who voted for him..twice are to blame, even the people who did not vote for him, who lived irresponsibly above their means are to blame for this mess.[/QUOTE]
Oil going to $50 a barrel, maybe but not for long. Even with an Obama administration putting the chances of a military confrontation with Iran as very remote, I bet Israel will step up and there will be a rumble between the two, that will guarantee oil will climb up. Israelis are already preparing for an Obama administration and they will go alone against Iran without the US for the first time in history.
China and Russia are the two of the fastest BRICs countries, the RMB is starting to appreciate against the Dollar, and their economy will still grow 10 percent per annum. This means by 2020, China will have a bigger economy than the US. As far as oppression is concerned, you did not read about the US military will be called in to stop any kind of domestic insurrection if an economic collapse hits the US. America is looking more like a Running Man movie, no I am not living in an alternative reality. Obama will not repeal the Patriot Act, and in reality will use it to finalize Bush's plans to turn the US into full police State.
Obama is going to be left with an economy in ruins and he will become a scapegoat. There are many regions of the US where he is not popular, probably any red state. You should have heard the angry comments made by Republican supporters at McCain rallies.
The Bush administration was able to lower taxes and fight a war because of foreign buyers of US Treasuries, mostly the Saudis and the Chinese.
The long run trend is an increase in the price of oil. I bet by 2018, oil will be at minimum around $300 a barrel. The world reached peak production in the 1970s and now the Asians are set to place increasing stress on the world's resources, there is no way oil will get cheaper, give a break, the stuff is running out and it will be years before the West will break its oil dependence...if ever.
If Americans did not need credit to live large or merely just live, why is Wall Street panicking???
Oh yeah, I have been visiting China regularly over the past several years, I can tell you that while there is a lot of third world poverty, the country is progressing like no other nation in history.
The US is turning into a police state:
[url]http://www.prisonplanet.tv/articles/march2005/170305runningman.htm[/url]
I also got news for you, even though Jorg Haider had an accident you should have heard what Austrians said about this man, they called him a "a good man", Haider was a Nazi sympathizer and most Austrians were upset about his passing. This was the same guy who called former SS Wafen "heroes". NPD is gaining traction in East Germany, Far right groups are gaining power all over Europe. So watch for the EU to turn into facist police state, especially with Islamic terror in Europe, nuclear Iran, and a reinvigorated Russia.
Ron Paul tells it like it is, he ain't living in an "alternate" reality:
[url]http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2002/cr062702.htm[/url]
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]America is looking more like a Running Man movie, no I am not living in an alternative reality. [/QUOTE]
I would ask CBGB what he was high on so I could sell some and get rich. Except we are all seeing the same writing on the wall and I can read as well as most. CBGB's claims, while out of the infield, are well within the ball park. Regardless of who becomes president, the US, and most of the world, is in for some kind of ride in 2009 and possibly 2010.
$50 a barrel oil, are you kidding??? Even the revised Goldman Sachs estimates accounting for a global slowdown, shows that oil will be hovering in the $100 to $135 range over the next four years. A nuclear Iran will definitely be a factor in higher oil prices, as will growth from Asia.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]$50 a barrel oil, are you kidding??? Even the revised Goldman Sachs estimates accounting for a global slowdown, shows that oil will be hovering in the $100 to $135 range over the next four years. A nuclear Iran will definitely be a factor in higher oil prices, as will growth from Asia.[/QUOTE]$70/80 realistic middle-term.
Russia has been reinvigorated by its association with China, its not just about petro prices. Despite all this talk about a deep recession in the West, even with downgraded economic forecasts China will still grow at around 9 percent a year for the next decade. If they decide to float the RMB, which they probably will after 2010, then watch out because it will shoot up like a rocket to the moon against the Dollar and Euro. The Chinese were trying to slow down their superhot economy anyway.
An Obama Presidency will not be the end of Mideast conflict, in fact, countries such as Iran will become more assertive. Earlier this year there was talk of an Israeli attack on Iran after the US Presidential election if Obama wins. Its 95 percent likely Obama will be the next US President. Israelis will use the remainder of the Bush administration as a window of time to act against Tehran. Enjoy the cheaper oil and gas prices, they are not going to last.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]Russia has been reinvigorated by its association with China, its not just about petro prices. Despite all this talk about a deep recession in the West, even with downgraded economic forecasts China will still grow at around 9 percent a year for the next decade. If they decide to float the RMB, which they probably will after 2010, then watch out because it will shoot up like a rocket to the moon against the Dollar and Euro. The Chinese were trying to slow down their superhot economy anyway.
An Obama Presidency will not be the end of Mideast conflict, in fact, countries such as Iran will become more assertive. Earlier this year there was talk of an Israeli attack on Iran after the US Presidential election if Obama wins. Its 95 percent likely Obama will be the next US President. Israelis will use the remainder of the Bush administration as a window of time to act against Tehran. Enjoy the cheaper oil and gas prices, they are not going to last.[/QUOTE]I know we disagree on this, but personally I don't believe in "the Asian Century". I see much more parity in the world, and China will be a player but not the leader.
Also agree that Obama is the next president. I personally like a lot of what McCain stands for as a person, he's more liberal than you might think, but within the confines of his political party and hampered by both his aged view of the world and his woefully incompetent VP, I think Obama MUST win.
The Chindians are already forcing many of us to reethink our own personal energy policies. People are already thinking of more fuel efficient cars instead of tanks on rubber wheels known as SUVs. There will always be a few getting super rich in America, but I think the middle class over there is supremely screwed. I don't think Obama is going to change the way America works, making America a more fair society, that is wishful thinking. Its the mass media that controls the population more than anyone else, and the media is controlled by wealthy elites. Obama hangs out with celebs and limo liberals who are wealthy people with liberal views. To me both the Democrats and Republicans are for the rich but differ in social and international policies.
The EU ministers were in talks this weekend and the biggest bomb they dropped was the repudiation of Bretton Woods, that was the agreement that declared the US dollar as the world reserve currency. Sarkozy mentioned that the global financial system will have to "rearranged". That does not sound good if you ask me. The EU system will never succeed in America, just no way it will happen without a massive social change in the US. Americans still equate smaller European autos for example as a sign of economic inferiority. I always hear about US troops in Germany complain about the size of houses over there.
I actually like McCain but my opinion of him has nosedived since he chose Sarah Palin. I would have thought different if he chose Mitt Romney.
There is still plenty of time for the situation to reverse for Obama, alas. He's only narrowly ahead in lots of states that he needs to win, such as Colorado, Nevada, Virginia, and even Pennsylvania. He does seem to have Wisconsin and Iowa locked up. I don't however take seriously the polls that suggest he has a chance in Ohio, Missouri, North Carolina, or Florida. We should all remember that american racism will probably remove about 3% to 5% from his standing in the polls when it comes to actual voting.
As for doubting his propensity for redistribution - certainly it is reasonable to understand that no one will ever be allowed near power in the US who would threaten the 'private' property of the owning class. But the fact remains that the only way out of a depression is the application of Keyensian economics. The kneejerk reaction of the rich was against FDR as well, but his policies benefited them far more than the working class.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]There will always be a few getting super rich in America, but I think the middle class over there is supremely screwed. I don't think Obama is going to change the way America works, making America a more fair society, that is wishful thinking. Its the mass media that controls the population more than anyone else, and the media is controlled by wealthy elites. [/QUOTE]And this disparity that you feel is America's doom is even more predominant in China, India and Russia. Their economies are in growth mode, there are very few mistakes to be made in a booming economy... everything works despite gross incompetence and corruption on the part of officials, politicians and business people.
They'll have to prove their mettle... and the resiliency of their economies... when growth flattens out and the economy actually has to function.
Get some popcorn.
The one thing no Americans on here want to admit is just how WASTEFUL America is. THAT is what is going to be its biggest undoing. Americans have many ingrained wasteful habits. Some are not so easily fixable in a 4 year presidential term. The biggest problem is that America has allowed several cities to be built practically from the ground up on a model of inefficiency and wasteful use of space. The next biggest problem is that America actually DISMANTLED the world's second-best rail system half a century ago and now we have very poor infrastructure in the area of transportation. None of these are easily solvable and they are going to cost America dearly in the long run.
I say next thing that happens is OPEC drops the dollar, and another big major terrorist attack will happen on US soil, and you can kiss the dollar goodbye all over again.
Once oil boy W is out of office there will be a huge surge in ‘alternative’ energy. History has shown that OPEC will combat emerging tech and alternatives by dropping oil down to nothing in order to crush it. $50/barrel? We’ll probably see $20 again. Fossil fuels have a shelf life of another 20 years as the primary lube that drives the economic machine.
Once again I don’t know where you’ve been, but the Israelis have been going solo for the last 8 years. W was no friend to them. Then again one of the biggest mistake in US foreign policy for the last 60 years has been allowing Israel to drive US foreign policy in the Middle East.
The Russian stock market has lost 65% of its value since May. Banks aren’t allowing depositors free access to their money. Where exactly do you get your news from, do you just make this stuff up or get all you news from Op-Ed pieces.
90% of China like the FSU is a crap hole. If the world economy tanks who do you think the Chinese are going to sell their products to? Their large and strong middle class? Don’t think so – bye Chinese economy. How do you think the emerging middle class in China is affording all their shiny new toys? On credit of course, oops. Let’s see what the situation in China is like in 6-8 months.
You guys seem to let ideology drive your arguments in this section, you seem to get opinions confused with facts and history. CBGB, you are so far off in the fringe it’s no wonder that you take Ron Paul as gospel, what are you a Euro anyway?
The whole world has benefited from W being in office at the expense of the US. He’s gone in January, get ready for a surging dollar, plunging oil, and the implosion of second world economies. If you don’t count the EU as a ‘country’ the US is the only country in the world that has a self sustaining economy, not only that, but as recent events have shown the US economy drives the worlds economy. Could China take over? No way, could a super EU country? Maybe, but how far off is that? 50 years? As the Doctor said, parity? Maybe but by looking at the players and the map I just don’t see it.
The only reason why the world economy hasn’t plunged into another Great Depression is because the US government is doing all it can to stave it off. Just as we saved the world’s collective ass three times in the 20th Century – my apologies to Eastern Europe and Africa. The rest of you can just send us Thank You notes.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]Oil going to $50 a barrel, maybe but not for long. Even with an Obama administration putting the chances of a military confrontation with Iran as very remote, I bet Israel will step up and there will be a rumble between the two, that will guarantee oil will climb up. Israelis are already preparing for an Obama administration and they will go alone against Iran without the US for the first time in history.
China and Russia are the two of the fastest BRICs countries, the RMB is starting to appreciate against the Dollar, and their economy will still grow 10 percent per annum. This means by 2020, China will have a bigger economy than the US. As far as oppression is concerned, you did not read about the US military will be called in to stop any kind of domestic insurrection if an economic collapse hits the US. America is looking more like a Running Man movie, no I am not living in an alternative reality. Obama will not repeal the Patriot Act, and in reality will use it to finalize Bush's plans to turn the US into full police State.
Obama is going to be left with an economy in ruins and he will become a scapegoat. There are many regions of the US where he is not popular, probably any red state. You should have heard the angry comments made by Republican supporters at McCain rallies.
The Bush administration was able to lower taxes and fight a war because of foreign buyers of US Treasuries, mostly the Saudis and the Chinese.
The long run trend is an increase in the price of oil. I bet by 2018, oil will be at minimum around $300 a barrel. The world reached peak production in the 1970s and now the Asians are set to place increasing stress on the world's resources, there is no way oil will get cheaper, give a break, the stuff is running out and it will be years before the West will break its oil dependence...if ever.
If Americans did not need credit to live large or merely just live, why is Wall Street panicking???
Oh yeah, I have been visiting China regularly over the past several years, I can tell you that while there is a lot of third world poverty, the country is progressing like no other nation in history.
The US is turning into a police state:
[url]http://www.prisonplanet.tv/articles/march2005/170305runningman.htm[/url]
I also got news for you, even though Jorg Haider had an accident you should have heard what Austrians said about this man, they called him a "a good man", Haider was a Nazi sympathizer and most Austrians were upset about his passing. This was the same guy who called former SS Wafen "heroes". NPD is gaining traction in East Germany, Far right groups are gaining power all over Europe. So watch for the EU to turn into facist police state, especially with Islamic terror in Europe, nuclear Iran, and a reinvigorated Russia.
Ron Paul tells it like it is, he ain't living in an "alternate" reality:
[url]http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2002/cr062702.htm[/url][/QUOTE]
People all over the world are hurting right now because the US is hurting and the US is the center of world finance. The rest of the world will NOT make that mistake again. They will figure out how to do business without Uncle Sam in the middle, and QUICKLY.
Alternative energy HAH! Dream on! You obviously haven't travelled very much because if you did you'd know how far the US is BEHIND on energy.
China will become internally self-sufficient in the next 5 years. They are much further along than you even imagine. And when they do they will change ALL the rules of the game. Brazil is ALREADY self-sufficient. They have spent the last 15 years working on it, and despite the bad press they have done a great job. The Bovespa is way down but it never counted for much anyways. Unlike in America, the stock market going down won't crash the whole economy over there.
You people in the "Obama will fix everything" camp are just living in a dream world, and you have NO idea how fucked up things have actually gotten.
How do the Chinese plan on becoming self sufficient with 85% of their population living in destitution, or is that the plan?
Brazil? Is Brazil a 2nd or 3rd world country? I think Brazil has always been self sufficient, much in the same way Chad or Somalia has always been self sufficient.
I'm not in the Obama 'camp' and I obviously have a better understand of things that you could hope.
America is not as unequal as China or India...yet. Its still a fair society compared to most developing nations. China is a police state and India is a wannabe democracy that is really a police state. China's middle class accounts for 20 percent of the population, nearly 300 million people, and its only going to get bigger. Lets see what America will look like another 10 to 15 years, the days of easy credit in America are gone, and this is going to squeeze the middle class like never before in American history. I am already aware of the wide disparity in Asia, but the US has always been considered to be more egalitarian, and that will not be the case in the near future.
So if you're not supporting Obama, then you are for Sarah Palin?? She is for alternative energy. LOL. More like offshore drilling. You do know that there is a 1 in 4 chance she will take over for McCain if he wins, which considering the wide lead that Obama has, is just not going to happen. I hope you realize that
McCain will just be another Bush, he has agreed 90 percent of the time with Bush, and Palin is so obvious, she is controlled by the oil companies.
Alan Greenspan recently hinted that the Euro could become the currency of choice in the not too distant future. Frankly I place Mr. Greenspan's credibility way above any anonymous poster, I would definitely listen to him. Jim Roberts and George Soros have not been too bullish about the US Dollar, neither has Warren Buffet. If people like that are losing faith in the Greenback it speaks volumes. The Euro is quickly becoming an alternative currency for international business, Bango Cheito is right, the world is not going to repeat the mistake of relying on the US financial system. Stephen Roach who actually worked for my former employer, is also a big Dollar bear, and he is also hinting that the US Dollar is going to implode. The EU is definitely not a country but it is an example of supranational cooperation, and once they kick out the British, there will be no opposition to giving Brussels full federal powers.
I am anticipating a major military conflict in the Middle East between Israel and Iran, the possibility of a war between the two is becoming close to 90 percent. Israel will probably launch an attack on Iran after the election in November and before Obama becomes inaugurated. This is going to be historic because it will be the first time in many years that Israel will launch a major military operation without the blessing of the US government.
No I am not a Euro, I am an American residing overseas.
[QUOTE=Cruiser D]
Once again I don’t know where you’ve been, but the Israelis have been going solo for the last 8 years. W was no friend to them. Then again one of the biggest mistake in US foreign policy for the last 60 years has been allowing Israel to drive US foreign policy in the Middle East.
[/QUOTE]
I guess you are not a Democrat or a Republican, both parties kowtow to Israel. The Israeli lobby is extremely powerful within the USA. The Libertarians are also Pro Mikvah, after all Gene Simmons is a member and one of the biggest Zionists in Rock and Roll. Washington was with Israel up until two years ago after Israel failed to destroy Hezbollah in Lebanon. The US just sent Israel a brand new ballistic missile radar system to compliment their Arrow missile defense. If Israel was really ignored by America, why do both Obama and McCain highlight their dedication to the Middle Eastern nation??
America has been blessed like no other nation in history but things are beginning to change. In the not too distant the future the US will just be another nation.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]I am anticipating a major military conflict in the Middle East between Israel and Iran, the possibility of a war between the two is becoming close to 90 percent. Israel will probably launch an attack on Iran after the election in November and before Obama becomes inaugurated. This is going to be historic because it will be the first time in many years that Israel will launch a major military operation without the blessing of the US government.[/QUOTE]
I am concerned about that. Israel will probably attack Iran. We, the US, have been turning a blind eye to their attacks on the Palestinians. So the Israelis that all their enemies are as weak as the Palestinians, even though Hezbollah put on a good showing in 2006.
My point is the Iran is NOT Gaza or the West Bank. The Iranians are NOT weak. An agressor who does not overwhelm his victim and leaves the raid a draw, really loses. There is no way Israel can overwhelm Iran without nukes, so Israel is going to be the loser.
Furthermore, Iran wants to solidy its influence over Iraq. Check this out! Iraq and Iran fight a war. Bush calls Iran part of an Axis of Evil. Then Bush takes down the enemy of Iran. HUH???!??!?!?!? A confrontation with Israel will be a perfect excuse to invade part of Iraq under the guise of trying to protect Iraq's airspace from Israeli intrusions. Iran will end up having influence from Afghanistan to the Mediterranean through Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon. Is that supposed to be the way to contain an enemy???!!!???
So we have let the tail wag the dog for so long that we don't know one end from the other. Israel will atack Iran and the Mid-East situation will become worse for us and better for Iran.
CB kinda already said it but...
you're right. The world is a very unequal place. And America through its extreme mismanagement has lost its edge and is about to join the party. It's going to be a real ***** walking 5 miles to the store to get bread because everything was built for when everybody could have their own car.
I don't relish the idea of China becoming a superpower and exercising hegemony the way the US has done in the past, it would be WAY worse. But it's a very strong possibility we had all better prepare for.
[QUOTE=Cruiser D]How do the Chinese plan on becoming self sufficient with 85% of their population living in destitution, or is that the plan?
Brazil? Is Brazil a 2nd or 3rd world country? I think Brazil has always been self sufficient, much in the same way Chad or Somalia has always been self sufficient.
I'm not in the Obama 'camp' and I obviously have a better understand of things that you could hope.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Bango Cheito]
I don't relish the idea of China becoming a superpower.[/QUOTE]
There won't be any superpowers in true sense of the word. Superpowers like those during the Cold War are gone. There are too many, too powerful nations/blocks today, to let anyone truly dominate.
This decade, U.S will use India to balance growing power of China, until China runs into problems of its own. People tend to forget intense dissatisfaction among polulation in rural and coastal China. Dreadful enviroment policies (food and toy scandals), the fact that China still is dictatorship, and probability the average Chinese starts to demand human rights as his/her income rises.
[QUOTE=Cruiser D]90% of China like the FSU is a crap hole. If the world economy tanks who do you think the Chinese are going to sell their products to? Their large and strong middle class? Don’t think so – bye Chinese economy.[/quote]
So you think China and rest of the world are still alive and kicking thanks to U.S consumers? Talking about egocentricity.
First of all, U.S market, like most western markets are saturated. Most multinationals have moved to so called emerging markets for two reasons. Cheaper production costs, AND proximity to consumers. Take cell phone manufacturers as an example. Latest models are introduced first in countries like Russia, then EU, then the USA.
How many consumers are there in the USA? Total population is ~300mln. In China has middle class of 200-300mln, same goes for India. EU total population is over 500mln.
Finally, do you really think average American becomes more or less wealthy in foreseeable future?
Do you think his/her impact on global economy will increase or decrease?
[QUOTE=Cruiser D]Could China take over? No way, could a super EU country? Maybe, but how far off is that? 50 years? As the Doctor said, parity? Maybe but by looking at the players and the map I just don’t see it.[/quote]
50 years? The Same was said about everything else EU was about to undertake, inclusive the Euro currency. EU is worlds biggest economy today. Enough said. Moreover, the "global" financial crisis has hit only those European banks, who have been involved in American sub-prime credit business. Not surprisingly, British banks were most affected.
[QUOTE=Cruiser D]The only reason why the world economy hasn’t plunged into another Great Depression is because the US government is doing all it can to stave it off. Just as we saved the world’s collective ass three times in the 20th Century – my apologies to Eastern Europe and Africa. The rest of you can just send us Thank You notes.[/QUOTE]
Let me see. It couldn't be in WWI, definitely not in WWII, and when was the 3rd time? Are you sure you haven't watched "Saving Private Ryan" too many times?
I'll put in this way, you guys have some interesting views that run against conventional wisdom. The future will bear you out as prophets or crackpots. I think you can guess as to watch side of the coin I'm going with. CBGB, you already got your 15 minutes so unless you say something interesting that’s it for you.
Leeuwen, China is an export nation. What's going to happen when no one is buying their goods? And I'm not just talking about the US. The last domino to fall in this global burn out will be China..and since there is no domino to cushion their fall it will be the hardest.
Using the model of cell phone shows how little you truly understand the driving forces behind things. But have no problem at all venturing a forceful opinion about it. The reason why the latest and greatest mobile phone are introduced in Asia, then Europe and finally the US is because consumers in Asia and to a now slightly lesser extent in Europe use their mobiles the way American's use their desktop/notebooks and broadband connections. Also the US mobile market is extremely restricted by both the two major players, ATT and Verzion (partially owned by Vondaphone I believe) and the FCC.
The average American unfortunately has a huge impact on foreign markets, mostly 2nd and 3rd world. Have you ever gone shopping at the world’s largest retailer, Walmart?
The EU has been kicking around since what, 1957? Didn't become an active force until the early 90's Yeah, I think 50 years is a good time frame. Yes, you are right, the global crisis has only affected Euro banks associated with the US. Obviously you never heard of these things called 'stock markets'. Care to give us a recap of the Euro markets over the last 30 days? The EU was organized and currently stands as a trade organization. It may (will) become something more then that but it will be awhile.
Without the US the outcome of WW2 would have been markedly different, from supplying the Allies during our 'neutrality' to being the catalyst for offensive action in the ETO to almost single handed winning the PTO.
Who was a major driving force of the rebuilding of Europe after WW2? Both Allies and Axis. Who rebuilt Japan?
Who won the Cold war and kept Soviet aggression in check?
Of course as an American I also concede that we sold out Eastern Europe in Yalta in 1945 and it took us more then 40 years to correct that mistake. We have and also continue to turn a blind eye to most of Africa.
So where is the 20 dollar a barrel oil coming from? That completely contradicts most major analysts predictions for oil prices. And where is the fuel alternative CruiserD, I would love to invest in the company that ends America's oil dependence, why keep it a secret? Let me guess is its Sarah Palin's farts?? Since you are not in the Obama camp, I am guessing McCain, yet you blame W for the current state of world affairs, how exactly will Palin-McCain differ? Just because McCain said he is not W??!! But since you do not like the USA's bend over for Israel policy I doubt you are a Palin fan, she has an Israeli flag in her office in Alaska. I never knew that Alaska had a large Jewish population.
Palin looks more like a Jewish mom from Long Island than an Alaskan hockey mom. ROFLMAO.
I think America is a great country but its has a big pain in the ass to deal with, no not Iran but Israel which constantly forces us into fruitless wars and other misadventures in the Muslim world. When the US stops supporting Israel it will be a great thing for America. Right now every important US politician kisses Hebrew ass. I got nothing against Israel or Jews but they should just fight their own wars and leave us alone. I grew up around a lot of them and it really bugged me how so many proudly stated how they loved Israel yet lived in America, if I said I loved Britain and was proud of British culture, I would be accused of being a member of the Ku Klux Klan. Even more annoying is that many New York area Jews are among the most ultra liberal people you would meet, if you pick up the New York Times its the most America hating newspaper in the world, and many of their columnists are you guessed it, its kind of ironic considering that its the good old USA that has been the force that has protected the Jewish people in history. At the same time many of these loons love to talk up Europe, hello!!! The Europeans nearly wiped out Jews in the last World War, and frankly speaking most Europeans are still not exactly crazy about them.
My family traces their roots to Great Britain, and I am as American as they come, it really shocked me as a kid to find out when my dad sat down and told me that Jews not Anglosaxons run America. He was also explaining how its a good thing because he believes Jews are just more intelligent than goyim, good looking Blonde Anglos like me are just a front to make America look pretty to the world(the people do not want to see big noses LOL). I did not believe him but the events of the past eight years confirm this fact.
I already know the US was a great force in during WW2, so what is your point? I already know American consumers have a big impact on world markets, but these days the world economy is becoming more multipolar, Hank Paulson has been very multilateral in working with other nations, particularly the Europeans, Japanese, and of course China in fixing this mess, he even said the US cannot go it alone in solving this mess, we affect the world but now the world can affect us too.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]
Palin looks more like a Jewish mom from Long Island than an Alaskan hockey mom. ROFLMAO.
[/QUOTE]
I totally agree. A typicall Jewish Long Island mummy.
Colin Powell will endorse Barack Obama this Sunday on Meet the Press, that will completely ruin the McCain campaign.
truth be told, mccain of '00 would be far more livable then the current one controlled largely by the rnc. but its more of the fact he can't alienate the moderate base (the ones that will likely vote for obama) so he's alienated them by all this bill ayers nonsense. the zionist nutcases that like palin, mccain has to cater too because they out number the "real fiscal" republicans.
so that leaves him trying to excite the nutcase base and they love this kind of anti-american, left leaning hate speech. they just won't say "nigga" because 80% of the white population would distance themselves in a hot second from the republican party. that's the one word they can't say this season and get away it with and they know it.
"obamabucks" not withstanding... - [url]http://www.obamabucks.net/[/url]
so with arabs/muslims being so low on the popularity list, its easy and "freely" allowed to attack them in public. who in the mainstream news media has the balls to say muslims or arabs aren't evil when middle america is so slow to understand anything intelligent????
look at projection map that cnn and msnbc use, the middle of the country is red out of ignorance if nothing else. the deep south is red as well, that's the problem with any kind of intelligent discussion in america, these people are too slow to understand anything that makes any sense and the republicans have been using race as a wedge issue since nixon ran for office, see "southern strategy".
however i largely think it won't work this time. but that hinges on a large turnout of minority and young voters; if the primaries are any indication and knowing that many voters didn't show up for michigan and florida primary elections, i'd hate to say it but the "l" word is starting to come up now (landslide).
what we now need to worry about is somebody trying to bump off obama....
if that were to happen my fellow isg'ers and for those you not in sex prison, consider yourself lucky, i'll have to find a way for everybody in my house to make it to lax and out of the country... i won't be here when the shit goes down, they rioted after mlk's death, no telling what would happen if they bumped obama off and us northcom is active if you haven't been paying attention.... police state anybody?
Using the Barack Obama is a Muslim routine is a socially acceptable way to knock him down. Hilary Clinton started it during the nomination contest. Obama still leads by seven points, but I bet if it wasn't for those Muslim accusations he would be leading by at least 10.
Usually Jewish voters are very enthusiastic towards Democrats, but they seem very cold to Obama. They were cold to Kerry as well.
[QUOTE=DJ FourMoney]
Okay but you have to remember, I don't recall anybody making $250,000 a year complaining that they pay too much tax. The truth is, most high income Americans AVOID paying taxes the best way they can, sometimes legally, sometimes NOT[/QUOTE]
Brace yourself.
There's nothing wrong with avoiding taxes. If you move from New York to Texas to avoid higher taxes that's not a crime. When you do the math remember this, we have a progressive income tax in the United States. The people who "avoid" paying taxes are the people who earn the least, the bottom 50 percent of wage earners in the US collectively pay about 4 percent of the what the government takes in each year; they pay a much smaller percent of thier income too.
Like most taxpaying Americans, I don't have a [i]big[/i] problem with a progressive income tax - I used to earn low wages myself - but if you apply an even morality to everyone who files a tax return, you can't escape that the people who are "avoiding" taxes the most are the people who contribute the least to the economy. Higher income Americans create the most decent jobs, they also pay most of the overall tax burden. Almost all of it.
How much money do you think you would need in order to create a really good paying job? Using an ISG example, say you wanted to hire Ashley Dupree or one of her friends to come over every Friday night for a year - that's around $250,000. You've got to be pulling down some respectable coin to create that kind of opportunity. When the government comes along and raises your taxes, you can not escape revisiting your budget. That's not a promising situation for Ashley. You could probably get by with half as many blow jobs a year. All the sudden, Ashley is making $125,000. That gives her something to complain about. Maybe those taxes prompt you to consider the less costly opportunites overseas.
[QUOTE=DJ FourMoney]
Germans for example go to school for free, even to become a doctor but only get paid about $35-40K a year
[/QUOTE]
"More than 12,500 German doctors are working abroad already, and 2,300 left the country in 2005 alone, according to the doctors' association, the Marburger Bund...Low salaries are one of the main reasons. Favoccia is making $2,900 a month after taxes in Duesseldorf, but at the University Hospital in Amsterdam he will earn $8,150 after deductions — and work fewer hours."
[QUOTE=George90]Israel will probably attack Iran[/QUOTE]
How would Isreal launch any conventional military attack without crossing de facto American airspace? Turkey is in NATO and the Isrealis have some kind of security arrangement with them. I'm not convinced the Turks would allow an overflight. They can fall back on Article 5 of the NATO charter, right?
Isreal can't fly over Iraq or the Persian Gulf without the Americans going along with it. Iran would treat it as an American attack. The Americans still have a lot of options with the Iranians. So, for that and a spectrum of other reasons, if Isreal decided to "go it alone" I'd figure the American would try to shoot thier planes down.
[QUOTE=Bango Cheito]....bread because everything was built for when everybody could have their own car.
I don't relish the idea of China becoming a superpower and exercising hegemony the way the US has done in the past, it would be WAY worse. But it's a very strong possibility we had all better prepare for.[/QUOTE]
Have you ever read "How Buidlings Learn: What happens after they're built" by Stewart Brand? Mostly, it's about how structures adapt through different functionalities over time. I like the McDonald's off the Jericho Turnpike on Long Island. Buildings adapt to changing times.
Comparing the United States and China in conventional great power terms is like comparing apples and oranges. China borders Pakistan. China borders North Korea. China has been involved in shooting wars with nearly all of it's neighbors over the course of the past 60 years. It has unresolved border disputes with at least three nuclear powers. Think Germany 1866-1945. The stronger it gets, the more it's neighbors are going freak out.
China has some concerning demographics, something like 20 percent more men than women. That's a big deal when your country represents a huge chunk of the global population. The odd thing that worries me about that is the prospect of all those hard-up young guys trying to get laid. It's got to amount to 100 million guys without a partner. It's not like you can let 'em all lose in Havana for the weekend.
In contrast, at it's core, the United States is insular. The last time we exchanged gunfire in any significant way with either the Canadians or Mexicans was before the American Civil War. I think we are the second largest Spanish-speaking country in the world now, or we soon will be, and that matches up nicely with our position as the second-largest English speaking country (not much point to learning Hindi or Urdu in my opinion). For the most part, we can pick and choose our fights. If CHGB is right, and it all boils down to chess, then the USA is the piece with the most dynamic energy and freedom of movement and it's likely to remain so, barring something that ends the game.
[QUOTE=Jelly Donut]Brace yourself.
There's nothing wrong with avoiding taxes. If you move from New York to Texas to avoid higher taxes that's not a crime. When you do the math remember this, we have a progressive income tax in the United States. The people who "avoid" paying taxes are the people who earn the least, the bottom 50 percent of wage earners in the US collectively pay about 4 percent of the what the government takes in each year; they pay a much smaller percent of thier income too.
Like most taxpaying Americans, I don't have a [i]big[/i] problem with a progressive income tax - I used to earn low wages myself - but if you apply an even morality to everyone who files a tax return, you can't escape that the people who are "avoiding" taxes the most are the people who contribute the least to the economy. Higher income Americans create the most decent jobs, they also pay most of the overall tax burden. Almost all of it.
How much money do you think you would need in order to create a really good paying job? Using an ISG example, say you wanted to hire Ashley Dupree or one of her friends to come over every Friday night for a year - that's around $250,000. You've got to be pulling down some respectable coin to create that kind of opportunity. When the government comes along and raises your taxes, you can not escape revisiting your budget. That's not a promising situation for Ashley. You could probably get by with half as many blow jobs a year. All the sudden, Ashley is making $125,000. That gives her something to complain about. Maybe those taxes prompt you to consider the less costly opportunites overseas.
"More than 12,500 German doctors are working abroad already, and 2,300 left the country in 2005 alone, according to the doctors' association, the Marburger Bund...Low salaries are one of the main reasons. Favoccia is making $2,900 a month after taxes in Duesseldorf, but at the University Hospital in Amsterdam he will earn $8,150 after deductions — and work fewer hours."[/QUOTE]
Okay Small Business is the largest creator of jobs in the country.... I know
But how many boats, vacations, expensive cars and McMansions do you have to own? Wait better yet, who you trying to impress???
Recently on one of the lefty shows I love, a professor/economist had interviewed several bus drivers in Sweden and several owned homes free and clear and had boats or other pleasure items.
In this country that's Unionized labor and I know personally one of my good friends has worked for Los Angeles Metro (formerly RTD) since he got out of the Army in the mid-80's. He's maxed out at $22.45 an hour, I think that's just under 40K after taxes.
What can he afford? A '07 Mitsubishi EVO9 MR - $39K
In fact both the cars he and his wife have are less than 4 years old ('04 Nissan Altima SE), but he can't afford to own a boat or take his wife out on an expensive cruise or any of this stuff Europeans generally take for granted, with 33 days of paid vacation as I found on an Expat forum of people living in The Netherlands.
Speaking of The Netherlands; One poster was trying to see if it was worth his MBA and 150K a year Investment Banker position going "Dutch" and Expats spent 5 pages worth trying to convince the guy that can't compare wages and cost to the US, you might end up disappointed.
Okay, I'll be even more honest....
I don't pay much tax, I made $25K in '06 less since then. But in California that's basically "Working Poor". My manager who makes quite a bit more cannot afford both a new car and his apartment! I made a choice after leaving truck driving, I wanted a easy to do, low stress position. I currently don't have health care and even though I rarely get sick, I'm taking a chance every time I crank up my car or run it down the drag strip.
But many Corporations don't pay tax at all! Yet have their hand out to the Government when something goes wrong - See Investment Banks, Commercial Banks and Credit Card Companies.
Castro Nieves is out on 1.5 Million dollar bail for the IRS discovering his tax shelter and there rumors that many IRL Indy Car stars are scared they might get found if Helio turns State's "Stool Pigeon". Rich people DON'T PAY taxes and just WHO is Castro Nieves creating JOBS for????
If somebody starts up their own widget factory, he gets money usually from the SBA and local banks , never mind that the money is lost about 60% of the time as that's the rate small businesses fail in the US.
Using my current employer as an example, to keep their CEO's pay at around $800K before bonuses, they have cut back on employee training, taken away the service that cleans and polishes our floors and now subjects us to increasing our responsibility in them providing health care. Can I add that starting in '07 they had a freeze on employee raises, but have been through 2 CEO's since '06.
I got a NICKLE raise in '06 and not one since then. Yet food has gone up 35% and fuel about the same rate.
Now most business owners would see a net tax increase but what impact would that have? You can find a tax cut in something else, like hiring more people, adding solar panels to your roof, yadda, yadda, yadda.
I don't have a problem with taxes that's how things get done, its also responsible for our bloated Military budget along with giving left handed people a loan to help them with college.
I get NO HELP from the State or Federal Government for ANYTHING! I guess I could get on California's State Auto Insurance Plan but I'm not complaining I spend to much on insurance....
While I can't avoid paying taxes, Rich people can, which then the Government forces the IRS on the Middle Class since they pay most of it. And you know, back before all this Republican tax cut nonsense Rich people in the 60's where not bitching about paying too much tax... They aren't complaining now.
Businesses might complain but then how come its only AARP, Medical Doctors and 70% of Americans want Single Payer Health Care which would get companies off the HOOK and they aren't jumping up and down supporting it???
[QUOTE=Cruiser D]Leeuwen, China is an export nation. What's going to happen when no one is buying their goods? [/quote]
Well, I thought I just made a point about China's domestic market. Apparently I was wrong. Let make another attempt.
America was/is an export nation too, until it's trade balance went ape. Chinese domestic market is growing every year, and China is as important to its trading partners as vice versa. Besides, without having current figures, China's trade with EU might be worth even more than with the U.S. Please, stop thinking China will somehow collaps the day America stops buying its products. Oh, and guess who holds most US dollars out there.
[QUOTE=Cruiser D]reason why the latest and greatest mobile phone are introduced in Asia, then Europe and finally the US is because consumers in Asia and to a now slightly lesser extent in Europe use their mobiles the way American's use their desktop/notebooks and broadband connections.[/quote]
Oh, but then please explain why launching 3G enabled phones in Russia, if there is almost no (if completely no-existant) 3G networks? Again, this is about saturated markets and emerging markets. Why do you think Norwegian Telenor is dominant in... Bangladesh(!)? The anwser is future customers.
Another example - This year, Russia has surpassed Germany as the most important car market in Europe. All car manufacturers fight to open production facilities in St. Petersburg. Audi sells major part of it's upper class models (A6, A8, Q7) to... Russia.
[QUOTE=Cruiser D]The average American unfortunately has a huge impact on foreign markets, mostly 2nd and 3rd world. Have you ever gone shopping at the world’s largest retailer, Walmart?[/quote]
Haha, you did my day, indeed. No, thanks God I'm not 'fortunate' to shop at Walmart. Wait, didn't Walmart try to open stores in Germany, but had to go home again, since customers 'let it down'? ;)
So, if we take Walmart or Swedish IKEA as example for indirect employers of foot chained kids working for nothing, somewhere in Pakistan, then you translate it into 'average American consumer's inpact on global economy'? Give me a break.
[QUOTE=Cruiser D]The EU was organized and currently stands as a trade organization. It may (will) become something more then that but it will be awhile.[/quote]
Who are you kidding? EU is far from only a trading block. Latest involvement in the Georgia crisis and EU summits were hardly about economy. Time to wake up.
[QUOTE=Cruiser D]Who won the Cold war and kept Soviet aggression in check?[/quote]
I guess America did all this of pure courtsey?
Look, if the U.S didn't step in in the end of WWII, Sovets would 'liberate' entire Europe and your days would be numbered, ok?
Same foreign policy was applied during the Cold War. Better to fight the enemy on foreign soil than right home in America. What allies would America have if W.Europe fell into Russian hands? The U.S would have become surrounded by Soviets. Don't forget Soviets applied, and still apply same analogy. Better to keep so called buffer states and fight proxy wars, than let the enemy on Russian soil.
The British made last payment for your 'help' in WWII just last year, if I'm not misinformed. So stop claiming nonsense of saving someone's ass.
Leeuwen, do you work for the Republican party in the US? What's up with distorting my quotes and then replying to them?
Of course some mobile companies are interested in expanding into emerging markets to get more market share and presumably make more money. What does that have to do about why the latest and greatest enabled mobile is the last to show up in the US or doesn't show up at all?
I'm sure Audi isn't selling too many cars in Russia at the moment. I wonder if the Russians know the term 'repo man' yet.
Walmart is anti labor, it's no big surprise they got the bum rush in Germany. Besides Metro - where I have shopped many a time, who bought out Walmart in Germany was/is about ten years ahead of Walmart in the way they did business with supercenters and what not. My point, which you seemingly missed, is that Walmart is the world’s biggest retailer. The EU, thanks to mostly France and Germany still have a highly protectionism market. The US, not so much. I'd be happy if the Chinese just sold their products to their emerging market, or even just that part of the world. I don't think the Chinese would be as happy. My point for China and other exporter nations in general is if the US Government set up a zero balance trade system a lot of 'emerging' economies would be in trouble.
Your mentioning of the EU and Georgia brings my point home about the EU. Isn't it Sarkozy and France who is running point on the whole Georgia thing? And he isn't doing it in the name of the EU. It made me sick to see W the clueless sitting next to Putin in Bejing when Russia was attacking Georgia.
Even if the Russians were able to defeat Germany without our supplies or the diversion of a 2nd and 3rd front. I hardly doubt they could have taken Western Europe or if they had they would have found themselves in the same position as the German, with the exception they would now be facing a foe in sole possession of nuclear bombs and B-29’s.
As for the British repaying their debt from WW2 that is hardly the full story. They repaid a 4.34 Billion dollar loan Truman gave them in 1945 at 2% interest. The 4.34 billion was twice as large as the British economy at the time. But I don't think we got anything for all the supplies and other loans. Actually if I remember correctly FDR forgave the monies owed to us by Britain for all the resources we gave them during our ‘neutrality’ when the US officially joined the war in 1941. We did get some lease rights to bases for 50 WWI destroyers in 1940.
[QUOTE=Jelly Donut]How would Isreal launch any conventional military attack without crossing de facto American airspace? Turkey is in NATO and the Isrealis have some kind of security arrangement with them. I'm not convinced the Turks would allow an overflight. They can fall back on Article 5 of the NATO charter, right?
Isreal can't fly over Iraq or the Persian Gulf without the Americans going along with it. Iran would treat it as an American attack. The Americans still have a lot of options with the Iranians. So, for that and a spectrum of other reasons, if Isreal decided to "go it alone" I'd figure the American would try to shoot thier planes down.[/QUOTE]
Well New York and Miami are defacto Israeli airspace. The US is leaving Iraq anyway.
Americans will never pull a hair on a Jewish head, you obviously have no clue about our nation's government.
hi cruiser. me republican, right? ;) politically independent. seen too much of ideology driven bs and grown wise. so, at the moment, in lack of other duties, i simply express my highly personal views on a monger site. don't ask me why.
unfortunately i can't find audi statistics for russian market, but the figures were substantial as i remember them, and vast share were pricier models.
[url=http://www.articlesbase.com/automotive-articles/audi-sells-964151-cars-worldwide-in-2007-306857.html]audi sold 964,151 cars in 2007 worldwide[/url]
in europe 686,480 cars in 2007
germany 254,014
uk sold 100,712 cars
usa 93,506
asia (mainly china & hk) 134,176
africa and middle east 27,866
[url=http://www.ebrd.com/pubs/factsh/themes/autorus.pdf]growth in car market units, all brands, 2007 (per cent)[/url]
russia 35
western europe 0
worldwide 6
car sales volume, 2007 (millions)
russia 2.8 (3,8mln predicted for 2008)
north america 9.1
western europe 14.7
china 5.4
worldwide 49.0
so why do i present boring statistics? just insisting about investors heading to markets where money can be done in quickest possible way. customers in saturated markets won't necessary buy, even if majority of products are affordable. novelty of yet a new mobile phone is gone. western consumers, at least the ones i know, tend to think twice before buying a new car, simply because in terms of money it's one of the absolutely worst deals one can make. russians for instance, need to flaunt money, to gain respect in eyes of friends, neighbours. if you don't have it, you probably can't afford it, means you are loser. this kind of mentality is predominant among aspiring city folk in russia, and i'm sure our frequent visitors there can confirm it. heard similar stories about china, which also is a booming nation.
[quote=cruiserd]my point, which you seemingly missed, is that walmart is the world’s biggest retailer. the eu, thanks to mostly france and germany still have a highly protectionism market. the us, not so much.
...
...
my point for china and other exporter nations in general is if the us government set up a zero balance trade system a lot of 'emerging' economies would be in trouble.[/quote]
i think you are repeating myths overheard from american media. first of all, france probably is the most protectionist nation in eu. correct. but throwing germany into the same basket. totally incorrect. add the netherlands or sweden, or even the uk, to illustrate very deregulated markets, and the picture becomes clear.
what exactly did i miss from your walmart example?
perhaps something like this: walmart as world's biggest retailer sells china made junk, and as such, it could easily put chinese economy on the verge of collaps "if the us government set up a zero balance trade system".
great, somehow the us government doesn't seem to be determined to do anything about trade deficit, and guess what - in 2007 eu's trade deficit with china was [url=http://www.eubusiness.com/china/eu-china-trade.08]€157bln[/url](¨$232bln), while us' was [url=http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html#2007]$256bln[/url].
so much for eu's "protectionism". add quite interesting fact though - half of production facilities in china are foreign owned. who is behind foreign investments in china, and why aren't governtments of eu ans us anything about it? just a hint. why does it say 'made in china' on many nokia and ericsson models sold in eu and us?
[quote=cruiserd]your mentioning of the eu and georgia brings my point home about the eu. isn't it sarkozy and france who is running point on the whole georgia thing? and he isn't doing it in the name of the eu. it made me sick to see w the clueless sitting next to putin in bejing when russia was attacking georgia.
[/quote]
hate to be lengthy, risking the core of my post to get lost.
sarkozy acts in the name of eu, as current holder of (rotaing) presidency, even though not in the name of average european. besides, whoever would hold it at the moment, he/she would bark in the same way. i can't recall such breathtaking desinformation campaign in media about the whole georgia conflict. however bbc's 'have your say' section was cluttered with pro-russian posts, so obviously public hasn't been fooled this time.
dubbya clueless? eh, come on... who do you think sent hundreds of american military advisors to georgia? some of them were killed and indetified as "blacks" in russian media. israeli advisors were also there.
either it was an attempt to proxy war and test how far you might go before russia said halt, or what i think, a suicidial act of an obscure regime in tblisi, thinking it had carte blanche and security guarantees from the west. what a miscalculation. finally i hope shakashvili the clown, once and for all stops using eu flag during tv speeches from his office. georgia is not an eu country, and god help us it never will be.
[QUOTE=Jelly Donut]The Americans still have a lot of options with the Iranians. So, for that and a spectrum of other reasons, if Isreal decided to "go it alone" I'd figure the American would try to shoot thier planes down.[/QUOTE]
Namely, what options? You can bomb all fanatics in Iran back to the stone age, but if just one of them, sets off a dirty B in London, NY or other centers of West, we lose. So for now, Iran is fed with both whip and carrots. Doesn't work very well, and I'm sure there is no quick fix. Any suggestions?
US pilots shooting down Israelis - Don't make me laugh. Israelis already got a 'no' regarding access to Iraqi airspace. Also, Israeli jets can't make it to Iran and back without refueling, as possible air combat is taken into account.
There won't be any conventional invasion either. You can quote me on this.
So Iran will then be allowed to go nuclear? I think that is a horrible idea. It would be great if Israel would get rid of Iran's nukes. Iran has also threatened Europe, I could see a conflict brewing between Iran and the EU in the coming years.
There will be no invasion or firefight between Iran and the Anglo nations, but I think something is on the horizon for the EU and Iran. Once a more a right wing government takes control of Germany it will lead to a major historic push, a revival of Germany's military. Russia and Germany recently formulated an agreement, historically, when both nations do this, its usually a prelude to a major military conflict.
The Germans could easily retool those factories to build missiles, tanks, aircraft, instead of Audis and BMWs. Now that the EU is beginning to work as an integrated economic unit, it does not sound far fetched. The A380 is the first aircraft that is partially designed and constructed in Germany although most of it is constructed in France, and its engine was designed in Britain.
[QUOTE=Leeuwen]Well, I thought I just made a point about China's domestic market. Apparently I was wrong. Let make another attempt.
America was/is an export nation too, until it's trade balance went ape. Chinese domestic market is growing every year, and China is as important to its trading partners as vice versa. Besides, without having current figures, China's trade with EU might be worth even more than with the U.S. Please, stop thinking China will somehow collaps the day America stops buying its products. Oh, and guess who holds most US dollars out there.
Oh, but then please explain why launching 3G enabled phones in Russia, if there is almost no (if completely no-existant) 3G networks? Again, this is about saturated markets and emerging markets. Why do you think Norwegian Telenor is dominant in... Bangladesh(!)? The anwser is future customers.
Another example - This year, Russia has surpassed Germany as the most important car market in Europe. All car manufacturers fight to open production facilities in St. Petersburg. Audi sells major part of it's upper class models (A6, A8, Q7) to... Russia.
Haha, you did my day, indeed. No, thanks God I'm not 'fortunate' to shop at Walmart. Wait, didn't Walmart try to open stores in Germany, but had to go home again, since customers 'let it down'? ;)
So, if we take Walmart or Swedish IKEA as example for indirect employers of foot chained kids working for nothing, somewhere in Pakistan, then you translate it into 'average American consumer's inpact on global economy'? Give me a break.
Who are you kidding? EU is far from only a trading block. Latest involvement in the Georgia crisis and EU summits were hardly about economy. Time to wake up.
I guess America did all this of pure courtsey?
Look, if the U.S didn't step in in the end of WWII, Sovets would 'liberate' entire Europe and your days would be numbered, ok?
Same foreign policy was applied during the Cold War. Better to fight the enemy on foreign soil than right home in America. What allies would America have if W.Europe fell into Russian hands? The U.S would have become surrounded by Soviets. Don't forget Soviets applied, and still apply same analogy. Better to keep so called buffer states and fight proxy wars, than let the enemy on Russian soil.
The British made last payment for your 'help' in WWII just last year, if I'm not misinformed. So stop claiming nonsense of saving someone's ass.[/QUOTE]
Actually D the reason why we don't get more advanced phones faster in America is alot simpler than you think.
Americans as a WHOLE are STUPID and CHEAP.
Before DVR's got popular just how many people have 12:00 flashing on their VCR and no way to set it?
I'm not sure but I think 3 million Americans including my stepfather and John McCain have no desire to learn how to even send EMAIL.
The reason why providers have kept phones simple is because most people still complain about being able to make a frickin phone call! My mother mostly has a BB Curve so she can play Spades...
I blame some of this on phone companies. They put all the fun stuff on business phones for a long time and just recently started to put apps useful to the rest of us on regular lower cost "dumbphones".
I ordered a TMO G1 and I'm waiting for it to be delivered, this phone is WAY above most people's heads. I can do things with my Rokr E6 (which is an unlocked Asia-Pacific market Motorola) that mirror the first Iphone. I just don't have the nice browser and 30fps video playback, but its touch screen and Unlocked...
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]So Iran will then be allowed to go nuclear? I think that is a horrible idea. It would be great if Israel would get rid of Iran's nukes. Iran has also threatened Europe, I could see a conflict brewing between Iran and the EU in the coming years.
There will be no invasion or firefight between Iran and the Anglo nations, but I think something is on the horizon for the EU and Iran. Once a more a right wing government takes control of Germany it will lead to a major historic push, a revival of Germany's military. Russia and Germany recently formulated an agreement, historically, when both nations do this, its usually a prelude to a major military conflict.
The Germans could easily retool those factories to build missiles, tanks, aircraft, instead of Audis and BMWs. Now that the EU is beginning to work as an integrated economic unit, it does not sound far fetched. The A380 is the first aircraft that is partially designed and constructed in Germany although most of it is constructed in France, and its engine was designed in Britain.[/QUOTE]
This is foolish thinking but with the wave of phone calls and emails to the Capital when the first Baliout plan came down, I think we're finally paying attention around.
Now take this with a gain of salt -
If we can keep that kind of focus on the Government who would quickly find themselves out of office if they kept trying to force silly things to happen, then we can expect NO ATTACK on Iran. We can expect serious talks between Iran, Palestinian, Israel and everybody else in the region.
To pay for the social changes and rebuilding of America, let's face it. We can't have Clandestine Wars or Wars period. It only enriches the MIC when frankly they can be put to work developing Fuel Cells, Hydrogen Power, Getting to a "Zero Waste" and increasing our supply of Fresh Water.
Anyway, change is coming. If its not I need to find a safe spot on the earth to chill in for the next 10 years or so.
Jelly Donut just lost all credibility to me, US pilots shooting down Israeli jets??!!! What the fuck are you smoking?? Didn't you know Israel dominates American foreign policy and every politician in America including Obama fears Jews?? Everyone knows that when Israel tells the US government to jump, the US government says "How high??". The US military just gave Israel are most advanced radar system.
CruiserD's talk of $20 a barrel oil???!! Oh sure, production peaked over 30 years ago but demand has increased since China and India have joined the global economy, there is no way cheap oil is coming back with 40 percent of the world's population deciding they want to become capitalists.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]Jelly Donut just lost all credibility to me, US pilots shooting down Israeli jets??!!! What the fuck are you smoking?? .[/QUOTE]
A Carlos Torano "Noventa". It was a bit hard to light the thing up, but I'm enjoying the overall experience.
As I understand it, the question was what happens if Isreali overflies Iraq in order to attack Iran. I don't see how that helps American foriegn policy overall (or even [i]at all[/i]). If you use some imagination, you understand that such an attack would be considered an attack by the [i]United States[/i] on Iran. It's not like the United States could simply say "Oh yeah, we just let those guys fly over Iraq. Didn't think much of it at the time. Sorry." The assumption everyone would make would be that the United States has authorized it.
It would complicate the US position with Arab states, probably reverse what gains we see in Iraq, perhaps ingite a complete war with Iran. I don't think that's a direction the USA (or Isreal or Iran) wants to go in. But that was the question.
Back in the Second World War, the British ended up sinking the French fleet. That was something unlikely, but that's how the politics spun out. This is similiar territory. Based on your posts, I'm convinced you've got the imagination to see - an Isreali overflight of Iraq would not be in American interests, the United States would have to take steps to stop it.
It's an interesting hypothetical question, but it's a bit out there and my answer fits it fine.
JD
[QUOTE=DJ FourMoney]
Castro Nieves is out on 1.5 Million dollar bail for the IRS discovering his tax shelter and there rumors that many IRL Indy Car stars are scared they might get found if Helio turns State's "Stool Pigeon". Rich people DON'T PAY taxes and just WHO is Castro Nieves creating JOBS for????[/quote]
Point of Information: It's 'Castronieves' as one word.
[QUOTE=DJ FourMoney]
Businesses might complain but then how come its only AARP, Medical Doctors and 70% of Americans want Single Payer Health Care which would get companies off the HOOK and they aren't jumping up and down supporting it???[/QUOTE]
I don't know. It doesn't makes sense to me that the average American is not SCREAMING for single payer health care / universal insurance. The most obvious benefit is that if you lose your job, as many are now doing, you keep your health insurance. That is because it is provided by the government and paid through taxes (borne mostly by the high income), rather through an employer and paid through large deductions to our paychecks.
Some American voters just don't understand their economic interests.
[QUOTE=Jelly Donut]A Carlos Torano "Noventa". It was a bit hard to light the thing up, but I'm enjoying the overall experience.
As I understand it, the question was what happens if Isreali overflies Iraq in order to attack Iran. I don't see how that helps American foriegn policy overall (or even [i]at all[/i]). If you use some imagination, you understand that such an attack would be considered an attack by the [i]United States[/i] on Iran. It's not like the United States could simply say "Oh yeah, we just let those guys fly over Iraq. Didn't think much of it at the time. Sorry." The assumption everyone would make would be that the United States has authorized it.
It would complicate the US position with Arab states, probably reverse what gains we see in Iraq, perhaps ingite a complete war with Iran. I don't think that's a direction the USA (or Isreal or Iran) wants to go in. But that was the question.
Back in the Second World War, the British ended up sinking the French fleet. That was something unlikely, but that's how the politics spun out. This is similiar territory. Based on your posts, I'm convinced you've got the imagination to see - an Isreali overflight of Iraq would not be in American interests, the United States would have to take steps to stop it.
It's an interesting hypothetical question, but it's a bit out there and my answer fits it fine.
JD[/QUOTE]
William Kristol, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, and Richard Perle, these were men who pretty much were the architects of Bush's Middle East policy, they all happen to be Jews and ardent Zionists commited to Israel, CruiserD is so off on saying that this administration turned its back on Israel, in fact its policies were in line with the most right wing aspects of the Israeli leadership.
The world is becoming more multipolar, and its obvious the US era of total domination is over. I expect big changes around the world. The most striking will be a more right wing Europe which is at the doorstep of radical Islam as well as the Russian bear.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]William Kristol, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, and Richard Perle, these were men who pretty much were the architects of Bush's Middle East policy, they all happen to be Jews and ardent Zionists commited to Israel...[/QUOTE]
The President and Vice President of the United States are, as far as I know, both Methodists. Of the Secretaries of State, Defense and Treasury through the Bush administration the only one I'm aware of that spoke any Yiddish was Colin Powell, who picked it up as a kid in Harlem. In the United States, these are the principle officers of the Executive Branch and the people who ultimately direct major policies.
Of the people you mentioned, Wolfowitz was U.S. Deputy Secretary of Defense and Feith was Under Secretary of Defense for Policy. I think Perle had some kind of advisory role to the Secretary of Defense as well. Obviously, not unimportant positions, but tertiary to the administration. Not Cabinet level.
If you're going to have a go at a religious group, why not take on the Methodists? It would be so much more fresh than the same old boring Zionist conspiracy song-and-dance. Anyway, it seems like you are heading in a better direction with this whole Europe swinging right thing - love the idea of Carla Sarkozy in jack boots - I'd liked to see you flesh that idea out further.
leeuwen, and your car stats mean what? audi sells more cars in europe then the us, and that is a big surprise because?
have you ever lived or worked in germany. the germans are just as protectionism as they french, they just don't take to the streets in protest. that simply isn't the german way.
as far as the china trade thing goes you keep making it into a us/china thing. the chinese economy will implode if they can't export to anyone.
sarkozy is the president of france, he isn't president of the european union, however he is president of the european council, a figurehead position which rotates with the leader nation. however this will come to an end soon with a eu elected president. here is what the eu is doing officially in georgia, [url]http://www.delgeo.ec.europa.eu/en/press2008/17sept2008.html[/url], business as usual for europe.
umm yeah, the us had 'hundreds' of military advisors in georgia (read - hundreds of special ops agents). where did you get that one, the weekly world news of moscow?
i've notice you tend to ramble off on tangents and argue points that are not being discussed. you also tend to distort and or ignore what i have written and then go off on another tangent to reply to my 'remarks'. could you just stick to the subject at hand, fully read and comprehend my remarks and then reply to them? hmmm?
dj, actually my mobile explanation is the correct [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord116][CodeWord116][/url]. but i never did take into account that your dad can’t use a mobile except to make a call with. neither can my dad or just about any other ‘dad’ in the world, it’s kinda universal.
m5, are you nuts? the druge report isn't a good place to follow anything. you want unbiased reporting that isn't an op-ed piece in disguse read the ap newsline.
[QUOTE=Marak5]Thanks to Obama!
George Bush was on the front page of the Chicago tribune 2 weeks ago desperate with Obama and Nancy Pelosi coddling him.
Obama is 1 Senator out of 100 and might as well be dictator right now.
Congress is predicting a 'liberal supermajority' in the November, I'd say it's realistic.
Legalization of prostitution in the USA under Obama? Likely. Obama's platfor includes an infrastructure rehaul.
Rumors that George Bush will resign after using the patriot act to spy on Obama's campaign and supporters.
I'd say the stock market might as well be on it's way out. Anyone watching the american media? Fairly eerie situation going on. McCain is guaranteeing 100% of savings for only 6 months if he wins. Put cash into a safe if a storage bin or government bonds.
Obama opposed the Iraq war and wants troops home in 12-18 months.
I doubt that Europe would be overtaking land or materials.
[url]www.drudgereport.com[/url] is the best place to follow the election.
Obama is the international guy for 2008.[/QUOTE]
What makes you think Obama will win, already the polls are narrowing yet again to nearly 5 percent. You have to account for the Bradley effect, which often says minorities do worse in real elections than in polls. Regardless of whether Obama or McCain wins, its going to be a stormy next few years for the world. I just don't see a swift US economic recovery happening if Obama wins, it will take years for a recovery to happen, and it won't happen while Obama is President. His policies are ambitious and it will take years before it can reap any fruit.
Comparing the current economic crisis to the 1930s is a bit of a stretch, with government intervention we will get the 1970s, not good but still not as bad as the Great Depression.
Either way you are seeing the development of a more multipolar world. The US is not going to fall to pieces but its not going to be an unchallenged power either that will be able to throw its weight around without consequences.
Race matters in Florida and Ohio, two states Obama needs to win the White House, and those are states with racial issues. He has a narrow lead in both. I think he can still win if he takes Virginia where is he is leading by 8 points in the polls and after the Bradley Effect, he will win by 3 points or so, assuming he keeps this lead in Virginia.
Already just looking at the election map, its very certain how politically polarized the US has become. Palin's comment about pro America states does not help, it remains to be seen if Obama will be a unifying figure in America. Somehow I don't think the people in the Red States are particularly fond of America.
As far as Zionist conspiracies are concerned, ever heard of Evangelicals like John Hagee?? Just about every Born Again pastor in America makes a point that its a good Christian's duty to support Israel. My family are Evangelicals, although I am not, they all are pro Israel Zionists. That is why Bush and Cheney are Zionists yet not Jewish.
The Dollar is moving because other economies are suffering due to the subprime fallout hitting other countries, also the fact that other central banks are slashing interest rates. The Dollar will go up and down for a while, but wait til the Chinese float the RMB.
Europe has gone facist in the last century, why would it not happen again? History has shown us time after time that political extremists gain power during times of great economic uncertainty. Look what the Austrian mainstream said about the death of Joerg Haider, a man who once called SS Wafen heroes and own parents were supporters of the third Reich, it shows how ingrained these attitudes are on the Continent.
The French?? The French are good for food, but European history circles around Britain, Germany, and Russia.
China will stand on its own without blinking in 3-5 years. They've been shooting for JUST THAT for the past 15-20 years, remember that.
All the ethnocentric ranting in the universe won't change that. Yeah, conditions in America are better for the average person, MUCH better, RIGHT NOW, that ain't gonna last very fucking long. And unfortunatley the USA has all its eggs in one basket (the economy) and the basket just got dropped!
[quote=CruiserD]You also tend to distort and or ignore what I have written and then go off on another tangent to reply to my 'remarks'. Could you just stick to the subject at hand, fully read and comprehend my remarks and then reply to them? Hmmm?[/quote]We were on China and I brought up Russian market as an parallel example of an emerging economy. Why sales of Audi cars? I explicitly anwered this already, and "big surprise" was the extraordinary growth of car sales in Russia (all brands), and Russia surpassing Germany as Europe's most important market for automobiles. Do yourself a favour and read once again.
Since global economy is such a wide topic, it may seem to you I don't stick to the subject, but if Ford, Nissan, Renault, Chrysler, VW, Toyota already opened factories in Russia (again!) and BMW and Daimler are talking about doing the same, it must be an unambiguous indicator that established markets are losing importance, relatively. Hence, your bold statement, almost oxymoron, [i]"The Chinese economy will implode if they can't export TO ANYONE."[/i], gets an imediate reply. There will always be someone buying. Nobody is irreplaceable.
[Quote=Crusier D]Sarkozy is the president of France, he isn't president of the European Union, however he is president of the European Council, a figurehead position which rotates with the leader nation.[/quote][quote=Leeuwen]Sarkozy acts in the name of EU, as current holder of (rotaing) presidency, even though not in the name of average European.[/quote]Further comments are superfluous.
[quote=Cruiser D]Umm yeah, the US had 'hundreds' of military advisors in Georgia (read - hundreds of special ops agents). Where did you get that one, the Weekly World News of Moscow?[/quote]Look, it's no secret the US armed Georgia since [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1844653.stm]at least 2002[/url] and been it's principal supporter. If you ever heard of Nabucco vs. South Stream, chances are you may come to wise conclusions. I sugest you look [url=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Baku_pipelines.svg]here[/url] and [url=http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/01/18/europe/EU-GEN-Bulgaria-Putin.php]here[/url].
Published: [url=http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/07/15/europe/EU-GEN-Georgia-US-Military.php]July 15, 2008[/url]
[i]"TBILISI, Georgia: Georgian and U.S. troops started a joint military exercise Tuesday amid growing tensions between the ex-Soviet republic and Russia, a Georgian defense ministry official said.
About 1,200 U.S. servicemen and 800 Georgians will train for three weeks at the Vaziani military base near the Georgian capital, Tbilisi, ministry spokesman Mindiya Arabuli said. The drills were planned months ago and are not related to recent tensions over two separatist Georgian regions that are backed by Moscow, he said."[/i]
Yes, Russian media claimed one-hundred-military-advisors. Should we ignore it because Russian media claims it, and not our truth-and-whole-truth-only Western media? Mind you, I listen to everyone's story. Besides, what do you think American military advisors are hired for, if not training military personel, often in US-backed countries. How many are they in Central Asia, in Middle East? They certainly aren't sitting in Kansas watching cornfields.
Finally, [url=http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1358]an excellent article from our Hebrew friends[/url], shedding light on events that conveniently haven't been quite in focus of neither BBC, ABC, NBC or other friendly networks. Enjoy.
[i]"Last year, the Georgian president commissioned from private Israeli security firms several hundred military advisers, estimated at up to 1,000, to train the Georgian armed forces in commando, air, sea, armored and artillery combat tactics. They also offer instruction on military intelligence and security for the central regime. Tbilisi also purchased weapons, intelligence and electronic warfare systems from Israel.
These advisers were undoubtedly deeply involved in the Georgian army’s preparations to conquer the South Ossetian capital Friday."[/i]
[quote=Cruiser D]Have you ever lived or worked in Germany. The Germans are just as protectionism as they French, they just don't take to the streets in protest. That simply isn't the German way.[/quote]I feel obliged to return the favour - Where did you get that one, FoxNews? Do you have any examples or facts backing your empty statement? If so, then maybe we can discuss the matter in German.
Bango, China has always stood on it's own except during the imperialism era, even then it was one cagey tiger.
Bango was meaning that the Chinese do not necessarily depend upon American consumers as what is generally accepted. Consumers are every on the planet. Asia will have a bigger consumer base than the West in a couple of decades. The EU is another alternative market for the Chinese, although a more hostile one than the US. BRICs have the best growth prospects for the at least the first half of this century.
90 percent of China a dump LOL, realistically its 80 percent but will drop to 50 percent in 10 years, 90 percent dump might describe India with its woefully horrific infrastructure but the Chinese are building a city the size of San Francisco every two weeks. The infrastructure in some of their big coastal cities like Shenzhen are unbelievable. You would honestly not think they would have such modern structures in a developing country. Shenzhen was largely a little town 20 years ago and is now larger than Los Angeles. Macau is another fine place, its an XXX rated version of Vegas.
Lee,
The world is in a global economic slump teetering on a global depression. Who is buying/going to buy Chinese products? Commodity traders from Neptune?
The emerging foreign auto industry in Russia might be a big surprise to you but it makes sense that the Euro's would start manufacturing autos in a county will a large and mostly dormant auto industry. Labor is cheap and regulations only exist for those without money or political connections. The ability for the middle class to get credit to buy cars appeared almost overnight, so it would stand to reason that short term demand would be off the charts. To say this is an indicator that the established markets are losing importance is quite wrong to say the least.
The US has armed Georgia since 2002? You call giving Georgia 6-8 mothballed hand me down National Guard Huey’s from Vietnam arming Georgia? It was a bribe to get Georgia to join the Coalition of the Willing. [url]http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jjCNfv_hN7dzfcaXwielvnLpfRrA[/url] .Your conspiracy theories about what is/has happened in Georgia just doesn’t line up with the actual facts. Russia b1tch slapped Georgia while the world watch – not that I am advocating anything different and then after the fact said ‘Hey!’. W sitting next to Putin during the Olympics just goes to show what a mindless puppet he is. Even Carter showed he was a bigger man then W standing up to the Soviets vis a via the Olympics.
When I lived in Germany it was a cradle to grave socialist state. But since Bonn was still the capital then it’s been a while. Does ISG’s own German based Dr S have any insight on the current state of affairs in the Fatherland?
CB, I’m sure you are heart broken but I doubt you’ll be receiving a direct reply from me – well except for this one. Your views are too far on the fringe to warrant.
Jewish support for Obama is weak compared to other Democratic candidates. Most Israelis do not like him, not a good sign for Obama. In fact some right wing Jews compare Obama to Hitler. Israelis prefer McCain.
I guarantee an Israel-Iran war will happen within the next 12 months following the election if Obama wins.
Germany is a cradle to grave welfare state but that will change, like you said a global slowdown is starting, so where are they going to get the money to pay for it, when wealthy foreigners can no longer afford Audis and BMWs?
The whole world is hurting but American leadership is hardly present. With the financial system of the US in disarray, a major reordering of the global economic order is occurring and the United States will be at the short end of the stick. This is not a repeat of 1929, more like a repeat of the 1970s, not great but not as severe as the Depression. The central banks of the world will prevent a depression but at the cost of increased inflation around the world.
Cruiser, sure established markets are getting relatively less important as new markets emerge. Pure logic. The cake expands, and if your share of it doesn't grow, it means it gets smaller. Relatively, was the word.
This week BBC reported slighy lower growth in China. Expected 9% for 2008. It was also mentioned, that Chinese consumer can afford 15 times less than his Western counterpart. BBC didn't tell if it was a figure for median Chinese consumer, whole China included, or just Chinese middle class in coastal cities. However, given sustained growth if Chinese economy, and shear number of consumers in Asia, it becomes evident that "commodity traders from Neptune" are out of luck.
[quote=Cruiser D]The US has armed Georgia since 2002? You call giving Georgia 6-8 mothballed hand me down National Guard Huey’s from Vietnam arming Georgia? It was a bribe to get Georgia to join the Coalition of the Willing. [url]http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM...caXwielvnLpfRrA[/url] .Your conspiracy theories about what is/has happened in Georgia just doesn’t line up with the actual facts. Russia b1tch slapped Georgia while the world watch – not that I am advocating anything different and then after the fact said ‘Hey!’.[/quote]
Giving (outdated) military hardware to someone, is by definition arming that person.
You don't believe Georgia deployed 2000 troops in Iraq for 6-8 Hueys, do you? Shakashvili did it for NATO membership, financial support and his long wish to escape Russian influence. He also counted on transit fees from Nabucco pipeline, because there is no Georgian economy to talk about. Moreover, you seem to agree what happened in Georgia but mark my comments "conspiracy theories". Sounds quite contradictory to me. From the article you refer to:
[i]"The US military has had a longstanding program to train Georgian troops for deployments in Iraq..."[/i] and then [i]"US military trainers not involved in Georgia conflict: military".[/i] Pentagon has spoken.
Like I pointed out, Israel was deeply involved in both arms deals and training, as others who support Nabucco pipeline. Let me quote the [url=http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=SimpleSite/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1218710400132]Jerusalem Post[/url]:
[i]"Georgia's Deputy Defense Minister Batu Kutelia said that Georgian corporals and sergeants train with German alpine units, the navy work with French instructors and special operations and urban warfare troops are taught by Israelis."
"Georgia's defense minister, Davit Kezerashvili, is a former Israeli who is fluent in Hebrew, and is said to have contributed to military cooperation."[/i]
Please, don't try to convince me that the US, main supporter of Georgia, were excluded from all this. Anyway, since Georgia is a closed chapter, next hotbed will be Israel/Iran, though a quick fix similar to Osirak 1981 or Syria 2007 seems unlikely, but desirable. [url=http://www.thejewishweek.com/viewArticle/c39_a13193/News/International.html]Others[/url] present much more progressive approach:
[i]"It seems to me if there is a deal with Russia on Iran, it will come in the next administration fairly early,” said Hough, the Brookings Institution’s former top Russian specialist. “It will involve the United States giving up on NATO membership for Ukraine and Georgia.” In addition, he said, “The new administration has got to decide whether to go ahead with missiles defenses in Eastern Europe."[/i]
Well, majority of Ukrainians (58% vs. 24%) are opposing NATO membership, and president Yushchenko's popularity at 4-5% certainly doesn't help. Georgia's way to NATO is closed for foreseeable future, or at the very best, until it clears up its border issues. Practically, until Georgia officially gives up S.Ossetia and Abchazia. I wouldn't hold my breath.
So, if Russians can use their influence on Iran in exchange for some favours, why not. Sounds plausible to me.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]Jewish support for Obama is weak compared to other Democratic candidates. Most Israelis do not like him, not a good sign for Obama.[/quote]
Why do you think Obama is less popular among American Jews than McCain? I would buy it if all Jews were conservative. All are not conservative.
I would buy it, if all Jews perceived Obama as less inclined to support Israel. Well, I simply don't know.
I would also buy it, if this attitude is based on 'traditions'. Same 'traditions' as in Dixie. Hopefully I'm wrong.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]I guarantee an Israel-Iran war will happen within the next 12 months following the election if Obama wins.[/quote]
Yes, I agree. The question is how Israel [url=http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1355]plans[/url] to execute the strike/s and how credible rumors of Iran's pre-emptive strike on Israel are.
[i]"Israeli intelligence estimates the summer months are critical for acting against Iran’s nuclear advances, especially uranium enrichment which Iran refuses to forego. If it is not stopped by September or October of 2008, it will be too late; Iran will have crossed the threshold to the last lap of its military program."[/i]
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]Germany is a cradle to grave welfare state but that will change, like you said a global slowdown is starting, so where are they going to get the money to pay for it, when wealthy foreigners can no longer afford Audis and BMWs?[/quote]
We have heard it before, EU was doomed, Scandinavian social welfare was doomed, German economy was doomed. Give it up, it won't happend. Of course, welfare systems were far more generous in the 70/80's, and then reformed every decade. I'm not sure what you guys understand by the sole expression "welfare".
I would like to point out the fact that Germany alone has been world's [url=http://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/eng/ch5en/conc5en/leadingtraders.html]largest[/url] exporter for x consecutive years. Quite an achievement by an 83mln-inhabitants country.
Besides German economy doesn't rely only on Audi and BMW, as many foreigners tend to think. Domestic and European automobile markets are most important, and I don't think there will ever be times "when wealthy foreigners can no longer afford Audis and BMWs". Wealthy foreigners simply start to pop up elsewhere. Hey, recessions are hitting markets on a regular basis. It's not like end of the world. However, if you seriously think about compeating with China, you either manufacture superiour quality products/services, or bring them to market at as low price as the Chinese do. Does either option seem viable?
I did not say the EU was going to collapse but things are going to change in the weakening global economy. Europe as a socialist non militaristic entity will soon be replaced by a different order. Already there is talk of a Permanent EU President, I doubt it will be French, most likely German. Europe has had a very long history of militarism, it has the industrial, technological, and scientific resources to build a powerful military machine. I do see a future where the EU will become a major world power and will be counterbalanced by a rapidly expanding Asian power bloc led by Russia and China but will include other Asian nations including Japan and India.
Israel will attack Iran but fail in removing the Iranian nuclear threat, eventually a nuclear Iran will threaten Europe and Europe will fight back. The EU will also cheat the Israelis, possibly forcing Israel to give major concessions to the Palestinians. Its also quite well known that European Muslims have become increasingly radicalized and unpopular in many European countries. Germany for example has an anti-Muslim political party, its small but its existence confirms growing fear of Islam in Europe. At the same time Europeans are increasingly anti-semetic, especially in the wake of the current financial chaos anti-semetism in Europe is coming back.
As far as Obama is concerned many Jews have not been as enthusiastic about him as they have towards other Democrats, Hilary Clinton and Al Gore in particular, the reason is that he will not wage wars in the Middle East in Israel's interests, and anyway Israel and the USA's interests are beginning to diverge.
Lee, your logic is that as emerging markets come to exist the established market means less? You toss that and the word logic in the same sentence?
You are all over the place on your Chinese economy comments. Now China has a self sustaining economy that could handle the absence of a booming world market and demand for their exports?
Who said the socialist economies of Europe is doomed, I'm actually saying the opposite, it seems to work. Germany is a large export nation because of 1) their high quality products 2) a very large an extremely efficient industrial base 3) A high protectionism market - products go out, but they don't come in. American used to be the same way during the 1940’, 50’ and 60’s. But along the way the masses bought into the myth that capitalism and a free market is good for all. It isn’t, it’s a minority win, majority loss system. The politicians who bought/were bought sold us out to big business. The masses fell for the lies and drank the cool aid.
Georgia is a 3rd string country at most. What we want from them is to be a name and number on the Coalition of the Willing. Keeping them from the Russian sphere of influence is a distant and obviously second at best. The dysfunctional Russian army rolled over them like a NFL team playing a junior high school team. If that’s the best so called American and Israel training can bring it’s time to take it up a notch. Or to put it more bluntly the US could care less about Georgia, however they are willing to pander to us in hopes it will bring them closer to the West and the EU.
Are the majority of people in the Ukraine opposed to NATO membership? Yes. Is the majority opposed to EU membership? Hell no. Ukraine doesn’t see the need for NATO to protect them against the Russian Bear, they actually have a military and the means to defend themselves if they the country would stay united under a Russian attack. Also an attack against Ukraine would bring a much stronger response then ‘Hey!’ from the US. Who knows, W might not even sit next to Putin while they were attacking. The European response would be even stronger. Georgia is however an easily expendable pawn on the world chess game. Besides, you want to destroy Russian without even firing a shot or saying ‘boo’, drop oil to under $50/barrel. OPEC’s currently making empty promises of dropping production. Russia has already given a flat out ‘nyet!’ to a production drop, the Russian economy can not survive without oil. In ten years time if the American government does right by it’s people, oil and the Middle East will be non factors. Russian will be back to being the paper tiger (err, bear?) they were during the 90's.
The EU will not be a united political force for quite some time. It still takes them a few days to argue out who’s cheese and bottled water will be used during conferences. Someone mention the new position of EU president might be filled by Germany, then maybe France. I think the front runners currently are Blair and one of the ex PM’s of Ireland.
Israel will not be attacking Iran.
Keep smoking the pot Cruiser D hippie boy, Israel is going to attack Iran, maybe they won't recent AP polls show a tie in the race for the White House, it contradicts every other poll showing Obama with a commanding lead.
Instead of some left wing news source or a wannabe right wing source like the trash is that is Fox News, try the American Conservative, a great publication.
Europe's socialist economy will collapse and it will be back to the "Sieg Heil" days again.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]Keep smoking the pot Cruiser D hippie boy, Israel is going to attack Iran, maybe they won't recent AP polls show a tie in the race for the White House, it contradicts every other poll showing Obama with a commanding lead.
Instead of some left wing news source or a wannabe right wing source like the trash is that is Fox News, try the American Conservative, a great publication.
Europe's socialist economy will collapse and it will be back to the "Sieg Heil" days again.[/QUOTE]
The only pole I trust is the Zogby poll -
Reuters/C-SPAN/Zogby Poll: Obama 52.2%, McCain 40.3%
[url]http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/[/url]
Polls having Obama up in the 60% range is nonsense. McCain hasn't broken 40% high enough to beat the margin of error for one thing. The truth is Dems out number Republicans 4:1 in most cases. So you'll have high initial turnout among early and absent voters, mostly white. In FLA for example, some stats have just been released.
Of the early voters which started yesterday (10/22) -
39% Dem/46% Repub
Expect that gap to close as many of educated white folk will not be voting on Nov 4th, they already have. Since the poor population/working class don't usually know about absent bailouts or aren't paying attention, will vote on Nov 4th and turnout will be extremely (for the US) high.
I predict 65%-70% turnout and that's HIGH
I don't know about other parts of the country but people in the Northeast generally vote on the 4th, from MIT professors to per diem laborers. Absentee ballots and/or early ballots aren't tallied until election day.
The College (Uni for you Euro's) educated tend to vote progressive - which isn't Republican.
University professors and academics almost always vote left of center, that does not mean all educated people are liberals. I know plenty of people with advanced degrees, most of who are professionals who are politically conservative. I had a professor who is teaches at a prestigious Ivy League university who thinks Ronald Reagan was the greatest person after Jesus, still he is in a minority.
Anyway a lot can happen in these days, Joe Biden was just recently opening his big mouth that Obama is going to be "tested" by a major international incident. My best hunch is that it will involve a confrontation between Israel and Iran.
Anyway I wish Obama good luck, he is going to get my overseas vote. My own belief is that he will be tested like no other leader in American history, he is going to be in over his head in January with major problems compared to Bush whose first six months were quiet but who was given the task of taking on the biggest crisis in American history up until that point, September 11th.
The Zogby poll has went up and down, I think Real Clear Politics and Pollster offer the most accurate estimates because they take an average of all major polls. The Fox News poll that came out recently makes me hold out some hope that Obama will win, because he was leading by 9 points over McCain on that one, big surprise, considering Fox News' obvious right wing bias, still Rupert Murdoch was predicting an Obama landslide in 2008, I think it will be a victory but not a landslide.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]University professors and academics almost always vote left of center, that does not mean all educated people are liberals. I know plenty of people with advanced degrees, most of who are professionals who are politically conservative. I had a professor who is teaches at a prestigious Ivy League university who thinks Ronald Reagan was the greatest person after Jesus, still he is in a minority.
Anyway a lot can happen in these days, Joe Biden was just recently opening his big mouth that Obama is going to be "tested" by a major international incident. My best hunch is that it will involve a confrontation between Israel and Iran.
Anyway I wish Obama good luck, he is going to get my overseas vote. My own belief is that he will be tested like no other leader in American history, he is going to be in over his head in January with major problems compared to Bush whose first six months were quiet but who was given the task of taking on the biggest crisis in American history up until that point, September 11th.
The Zogby poll has went up and down, I think Real Clear Politics and Pollster offer the most accurate estimates because they take an average of all major polls. The Fox News poll that came out recently makes me hold out some hope that Obama will win, because he was leading by 9 points over McCain on that one, big surprise, considering Fox News' obvious right wing bias, still Rupert Murdoch was predicting an Obama landslide in 2008, I think it will be a victory but not a landslide.[/QUOTE]
Actually according to news reports we bombed Syria, Oct Surprise anybody???
In any event, I think this country is war weary and this was foolish if somebody high up ordered this attack.
Of course this is Football Sunday not much is going to get through until Monday...
I just wish it was over and we can focus on Nov 5th...
I was on the USGS web site and found that there are currently 130 Geothermal projects going on with FULL FUNDING from Congress in '05. Oh yeah our Congress isn't doing anything. That's because people don't pay attention and much more worried about if somebody is Gay, if their daughter is dating a Black Man and if Lindsay Lohan shaves her pussy...
In any event, that's compared to I think 30 nuclear projects and umm we still don't know where to store the waste....
So basically I guess what I am saying is electing anybody isn't say much but undoing deadlocks in Congress and MAYBE setting policy but Congress passes policy if we paid attention more we would have HR 676 passed already and not about how we can "push" Obama into supporting that, when he's gotten $6+ Million for his campaign from the Health Care Industry.
Ranked 7th, guess who's #1....
[url]http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/indus.php?cycle=2008&cid=N00009638[/url]
[QUOTE=Cruiser D]I don't know about other parts of the country but people in the Northeast generally vote on the 4th, from MIT professors to per diem laborers. Absentee ballots and/or early ballots aren't tallied until election day.
The College (Uni for you Euro's) educated tend to vote progressive - which isn't Republican.[/QUOTE]
Anytime there's an election the electoral map looks the same...
Northeast - BLUE
West Coast - BLUE
Its the MIDDLE of the country that always HOLDS things up!
[QUOTE=DJ FourMoney]Actually according to news reports we bombed Syria, Oct Surprise anybody???
In any event, I think this country is war weary and this was foolish if somebody high up ordered this attack.
Of course this is Football Sunday not much is going to get through until Monday...
I just wish it was over and we can focus on Nov 5th...
[/QUOTE]
Nine civilians killed in a small village, among them; a father and his four sons....
[QUOTE=Balluba]Nine civilians killed in a small village, among them; a father and his four sons....[/QUOTE]
Yep dayum shame.
Yucca Mountain has been ready to receive nuclear waste since 2001. The DOE has been paying nuclear utilities 'penalty' money since 1999 because Yucca Mountain hasn't opened for business.
It will be interesting to see how Obama will be a man of change when he has already been bought. He's still a better choice then McCain.
[QUOTE=DJ FourMoney]
In any event, that's compared to I think 30 nuclear projects and umm we still don't know where to store the waste....
So basically I guess what I am saying is electing anybody isn't say much but undoing deadlocks in Congress and MAYBE setting policy but Congress passes policy if we paid attention more we would have HR 676 passed already and not about how we can "push" Obama into supporting that, when he's gotten $6+ Million for his campaign from the Health Care Industry.
Ranked 7th, guess who's #1....
[url]http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/indus.php?cycle=2008&cid=N00009638[/url][/QUOTE]
Actually DJ I think people in the Northeast and West Coast should get a full vote. The rest of the country half and DC none. :)
The border of Syria where insurgents enter Iraq from was bombed, the US military was bombing with the intention of getting the insurgents, not to outright attack the Syrian people. The US military has also chased Taliban into Pakistan too. The big conflict will be between Israel and Iran, and with the current economic meltdown in the US, the economic pressures will push Obama to withdraw troops from Iraq, and unlike what Palin has said those troops will never return to the region.
The Presidential contest is over. New York Magazine published a cover page with Obama's picture and the caption "January 20, 2009". SNL also just hinted at the outcome.
One of the Bush daughters has had a black boyfriend, the daughter that went to Yale not Jenna Bush.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]
One of the Bush daughters has had a black boyfriend, the daughter that went to Yale not Jenna Bush.[/QUOTE]
So what? You have a really outmoded-- or at least myopic view--of some aspects of race in America. I went to an Ivy League school graduating within a few years of BPP and dated two uber rich white chicks with recognizable last names and some other really really rich American chicks and never had a problem. I accompanied my girlfriends to various social functions, often with other family members present, and was always welcomed. Sometimes I was the only black guy in the room, but I never sensed any racial hostility.
I’m still cool with two of their dads to this day and have been asked to work for both of them on multiple occasions.
Only one girl's step-mom, a second trophy wife from Paraguay, said something to me which may have had a racial tint but she wasn't PC and was outlandishly ditzy anyway.
The only time I have ever experienced racism was when I was working in EE, and it was partially my fault as I conducted myself too informally at times...even then I think my youth, scope of work, and facile amicability that just barely masks an arrogance and an "I know that I am smarter than you and you know this too" demeanor all contributed to my work site difficulties in some EE countries.
Now I wear a suit, don't walk around with a permanent smile etched on my face, and am more formal and I see a marked difference in the way I am treated.
The only racial issues that I infrequently have today is with underclass ghetto blacks who are ignorant of the concept of the talented tenth and blame racism for their own pathological behavior. Many of my friends are black, attended Ivy League or comparable schools and work in law, banking, consulting, and are climbing the corporate ladder with all the associated trappings.
Come to think of it, of all of my close black friends I am the sorriest one of the bunch. And I can hardly be called a fuck up by anyone’s definition…just a bit of an adventurous soul and wanderlust at heart chasing pussy.
Dirk I think if you read some of CB's recent comments he has all the touch button's checked off. Why are you bothering? ;)
If you dress like a professional and act that way people generally treat you that way. If you act and dress like a thug people tend to treat you that way too. White, black, brown, whatever...
[url]http://www.ianjohnsononline.com/ian-johnson-news20070730.php[/url]
Racial prejudice does not exist in America?? Give me a break. Its very much alive in America, and since Obama has been running for President its been exposing a lot of racial issues. Even Hilary used racism to try to hurt her opponent. The case above is about football star Ian Johnson, who was once one of the top prospects for the NFL. Honestly compared to interracial dating in Australia and the UK, I think America still has a lot of issues. E-harmony never advertises interracial couples on TV, an Australian dating site does. Not that racism is exclusive to the US, its unfortunately a worldwide problem, but people see the USA is as some kind of egalitarian model so hence a higher bar set for America.
Maybe African Americans do not have as much of a stigma today but there are other groups having a hard time, Hispanics and Arab Americans are not exactly feeling welcome these days in the States.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur][url]http://www.ianjohnsononline.com/ian-johnson-news20070730.php[/url]
Racial prejudice does not exist in America?? Give me a break. Its very much alive in America, and since Obama has been running for President its been exposing a lot of racial issues. Even Hilary used racism to try to hurt her opponent. The case above is about football star Ian Johnson, who was once one of the top prospects for the NFL. Honestly compared to interracial dating in Australia and the UK, I think America still has a lot of issues. E-harmony never advertises interracial couples on TV, an Australian dating site does. Not that racism is exclusive to the US, its unfortunately a worldwide problem, but people see the USA is as some kind of egalitarian model so hence a higher bar set for America.
Maybe African Americans do not have as much of a stigma today but there are other groups having a hard time, Hispanics and Arab Americans are not exactly feeling welcome these days in the States.[/QUOTE]
Maybe DD is the in the Kenneth Blackwell mold....
I found on another forum that while at a soccer game at the Carson field here in LA that a Arab-American was sitting next to another Black American and said "Hey we're like brothers now, we get treated the same way by White folk..."
Palin in the same stadium was trying to say the real parts of America are Racist because those where the only crowds they pull these days in people saying "Kill Him" "Terrorist" "Nigger" and then the Ashley Todd incident that isn't even worth commenting on actually, yes Racism does exist in America and its ALIVE and well. Like flashing a light on bugs scurring around on your floor, this exposes race and just how ugly about 30-35% of White America is, let's hope this opens the door for a national dialog.
Nobody said that problems in the Black Community are not self inflicted at times. But everything Tim Wise says is true and until the day that "Working Class" used by the Clinton campaign isn't code for "White Middle Class Families" like some-how Black Americans are apart of that same "Middle Class" then we won't get anywhere in this country....
What is going to put Obama over the top is the 90+% Black and Latino vote actually.
They won't vote until Nov 4th, they are on "Colored People's Time"....
Sad to say most of the anti Obama's I encounter are racists (not to imply if you are Anti Obama you are a racist). Either in the closet or openly embracing their racism, personally I prefer the ones who are out in the open about it. The W administration has fucked this economy up so bad that a black man named Barack Obama is going to win the election. If today's Obama had run in 2000 he wouldn't have made it to the first primary. Then again if McCain had sold out in 2000 instead of 2004ish he probably would have got the nod in 2000.
My major problems with Obama is the massive amount of SIG and PAC money he's taken and like most liberals he's conditioned to afraid of the specter of nuclear power.
I don't think most people have a problem with Hispanics or Arabs (Muslims). I think most are offended by what is perceived as a forcing of their culture on us. Whether for business – press 1 for english or 2 for spanish or the government being too PC – it’s okay for Muslim females to have government ID’s taken with only their eyes showing. Then of course there’s the whole illegal immigration thing.
Arabs are not forcing their culture on anyone, even in Europe, most of them live in isolated ghettos. You don't see Muslims living near the Champs Ellysees with the elite French. Most of them do jobs that most locals will not. Your typical drunk European would not have a place to eat if it were not for a Turkish or Arab kebab shop. That's a great way to expose a racist. There are a lot of whites I know who are generally nice to Blacks and East Asians but when there is an Arab they behave totally different, its good old fashioned racism. These same people probably have hidden racism issues with the same people that they are nice to in public. Arabs have ethnic names and customs that are different and its just a fact that whites have a problem with this. Even many black people with African names have difficulties.
Europeans and white Americans are equally prejudiced. Some Australians to a degree, although most Australians are publicly nice to Asians, probably out of a fear that China or Indonesia might invade Australia in the future.
W's screwing up the of the US economy surely changed things, and US economic leadership and domination of Earth is soon to be history. Its obvious that the disaster W created allowed Obama a chance to get to the Presidency.
DD, Ivy League universities tend to be liberal bastions, if you go to more conservative areas of the country, there is a different mentality. The football player I mentioned went to Boise State, and he was receiving threats for proposing in public to a white cheerleader.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]Arabs are not forcing their culture on anyone, even in Europe, most of them live in isolated ghettos. You don't see Muslims living near the Champs Ellysees with the elite French. Most of them do jobs that most locals will not. Your typical drunk European would not have a place to eat if it were not for a Turkish or Arab kebab shop. That's a great way to expose a racist. There are a lot of whites I know who are generally nice to Blacks and East Asians but when there is an Arab they behave totally different, its good old fashioned racism. [/QUOTE]Live in Europe a while then rewrite your post.
I did, most of the Muslims don't play much of a role in European society anyway, hardly anyone I saw there did no more than drive a taxi or run a kebab shop. There is a small Muslim population in Australia where I reside but there is a mix, since many come from Malaysia and Singapore and are different from the Middle Eastern ones, they are definitely a secular bunch compared to the ones in Europe and at many times you cannot tell a lot of them apart from other ethnic groups. European Muslims are not well integrated, but that is not the point, they are only there to do menial jobs that locals will not perform, I recall at my hotel in Frankfurt a few years ago, all the maids were Turkish.
With the exception of France, the countries most populated with Muslims don't have more than 2 percent of the their population being Muslim. Maybe you might have a point with British and French Muslims being aggressive but the ones I saw in Germany, who are predominantly Turks are generally a quiet bunch. Still even the ones in Britain and France are mostly in the ghettos. If you compare Jews to Muslims, Jews have way more power in Western countries than Muslims, especially in Germany, the UK, and of course the USA. If I am not mistaken Germany and Austria gives Jews automatic citizenship in their countries, hence a fair number of Jews have immigrated to these countries from the former Soviet States and Israel. There was even a case of a German guy who migrated to Australia who the German government wanted to extradite because he said some rather improper things about the holocaust. At the same time there are Turks and others who have lived in Germany for decades and could not get citizenship until recently and even now I believe a person has to live in Germany at least 8 years to get it. There was a story of a Turk who lost his job and applied to welfare benefits and then got kicked out after living in the country for over 30 years. I see a similar pattern in Australia, Eastern Sydney which is considered to be very well off and has some the country's most prized real estate has a large Jewish population, Western Sydney which is considered a poor working class area has a lot of Muslims. I just don't see Muslims except for a token oil sheikh moving to Belgravia or Mayfair in London any time soon.
With the current world economic downturn getting increasingly bad, I expect Europeans to use Muslims as a scapegoat and they will also become increasingly anti-Jewish, although the Russians are most famous for this in the current time.
If so many Western countries are so annoyed with immigrants, I got a suggestion, ban feminism and go back to a Father knows best society, that would increase the local birth rate substantially. Right now in most Western nations marriage is a joke. The main argument for immigration is falling birth rates in Western nations.
Its true that there are people who are racist to one group of people and not to others. I have noticed it so many times.
Yo DJ: Most people at Ivy League schools are very liberal including the blacks there...thus the Ken Blackwell comment is not really applicable. But guess what, most of them are smart, get good jobs after graduation, and make lots of money...just like our white classmates do....and trust me, Ivy League elitist blacks would clown you DJ far worse than any white person could ever dream of...you'd have an easier time dating Jenna Bush then you would one of their daughters...yet they are "liberal" according to your definition.
Here's the way America works: study, go to uni, get a job, make money and then you won't have to whine about racism. If you are too poor and too dumb to get a scholarship to college, then join the Army, serve your country, use the GI bill and then go to school.
Before you accuse Hillary of being a racist...look at a picture of her sr. campiagn staff...there are more black women in that picture than Obama has blacks on his entire sr campiagn staff.
and from someone who has worked on a national campaign before, I can assure you that her comments were vetted through her sr. campiagn staff...anyway, it's not racist to make the argument that a particular political coalition (reminscent of McGovern's) can't win the whitehouse..
RE Barrack Hussein Obama. I don't like Al Gore, Ralph Nader, Bob Bar, or Dick Cheney? Does that make me anti-white? Obama is smart but has the thinnest resume of any major prsidential candidate that my cum laude ivy league poli sci ass can remember.
BO is the most liberal member of the US Senate....the US is a center right nation...somethings gotta give...the reality is that BO's rhetoric masks a far-left political philospohy...i only hope that his phillosphy quickly falls way to pragmatism.
Besides, since the guy has been planning his political career before he matriculated at Columbia, why didn't he shore his resume up...he's gotta know that American's dig apple pie, god, and guns. he should have changed barrack to barry, dropped his scary ass middle name, and joined the fuckin Navy reserve--you can get commiioned in three weeks...jag, intel, doesn't really matter as long as he could wear a Desert Storm participation ribbon on his dress whites.
If he would have done stuff like this he would have nipped much--but not all--of this shit in the bud. Who's gonna call a war vet a terrorist? Karl Rove ain't in the game anymore.
If Sec Powell ran instead of Obama do you think he would have encountered the same level of hostility? Of course not. Trailer Tash and WV Hillbillies are not that big a part of the American population.
I don't like Presidents with no millitary experience or contact sport particpation...going through bootcamp/ocs/football camp really builds character and fortitude. I know people like BO, much better than any of you do, both black and white, and I question their ability to lead when the shit hits the fans...being smart and rich in america really islolates you from comming into contact with adversity.
Things always change, for the most part the US is a center right nation but the current climate is changing. The big boogie man is not a Turbaned Taliban so much these days but a Banker in a Brooks Brothers suit and has an MBA on the wall of his corner office. Many people in America now want the government to keep an eye on corporate malfeasance as there is very little trust among the folks on Main St. to Wall Street.
DD, your argument against Obama is BS. Do you think Bush or Cheney lived in adversity?? Cheney and Bush both dodged the draft. McCain did not, but lets face it at 72, he is too old, and there is a good chance he will relinquish the White House to Sarah Palin whose experience has been running a small town and then a state whose economy is largely based on oil exports. Obama did not exactly live a life of privilege, although he went to an elite prep school and then to Columbia and Harvard. People call Obama fashionable but his wife admitted that he wears 10 year old clothes and the family shops at fairly modest budget stores. Meanwhile Sarah Palin drops 150k for Japanese glasses and a new makeover.
Hilary is not a racist but she used racism as a tool to try to hurt Obama, if she was not so aggressive in her tactics, Obama's lead over McCain would be over the double digits for months, its only widened since the September economic debacle.
Why the heck should Obama use a slave name like Barry???
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur] Do you think Bush or Cheney lived in adversity?? QUOTE]
that's exactly my point!!! anyway, bush was a fighter pilot. even if he dodged the draft i assume he went through ocs and fighter pilot school...which is more than obama or cheney ever did. cheney was a lineman at yale. I'm not syaing that playing football makes one a good leader, but it certainly makes one a better man.
anyway, gbgb, you seem kinda angry...why dont you post some pictures of some babes instrad of this dribble? you post a picture of an aussie *****...like robin nursery...and I will post a pic of this french chick that i shagged my 2nd night in kabul.
when was the last time you lived in the usa? you seem like you get all your info from the runner on the bottom of cnbc.
why barrack should have dumped his foreign sounding middle name? because to lead the majority you must project commonality with the majority's ethics and values...poles, jews, germans, italians, and a host of other ethnic groups have been doing this for years...making their name more american sounding.
i think that jackson should make a rule: no posting political banter unrelated to the concept of men finding women for sex unless you post a field report with a photo or two.
[QUOTE=DirkDingy]Yo DJ: Most people at Ivy League schools are very liberal including the blacks there...thus the Ken Blackwell comment is not really applicable. But guess what, most of them are smart, get good jobs after graduation, and make lots of money...just like our white classmates do....and trust me, Ivy League elitist blacks would clown you DJ far worse than any white person could ever dream of...you'd have an easier time dating Jenna Bush then you would one of their daughters...yet they are "liberal" according to your definition.
Here's the way America works: study, go to uni, get a job, make money and then you won't have to whine about racism. If you are too poor and too dumb to get a scholarship to college, then join the Army, serve your country, use the GI bill and then go to school.
Before you accuse Hillary of being a racist...look at a picture of her sr. campiagn staff...there are more black women in that picture than Obama has blacks on his entire sr campiagn staff.
and from someone who has worked on a national campaign before, I can assure you that her comments were vetted through her sr. campiagn staff...anyway, it's not racist to make the argument that a particular political coalition (reminscent of McGovern's) can't win the whitehouse..
RE Barrack Hussein Obama. I don't like Al Gore, Ralph Nader, Bob Bar, or Dick Cheney? Does that make me anti-white? Obama is smart but has the thinnest resume of any major prsidential candidate that my cum laude ivy league poli sci ass can remember.
BO is the most liberal member of the US Senate....the US is a center right nation...somethings gotta give...the reality is that BO's rhetoric masks a far-left political philospohy...i only hope that his phillosphy quickly falls way to pragmatism.
Besides, since the guy has been planning his political career before he matriculated at Columbia, why didn't he shore his resume up...he's gotta know that American's dig apple pie, god, and guns. he should have changed barrack to barry, dropped his scary ass middle name, and joined the fuckin Navy reserve--you can get commiioned in three weeks...jag, intel, doesn't really matter as long as he could wear a Desert Storm participation ribbon on his dress whites.
If he would have done stuff like this he would have nipped much--but not all--of this shit in the bud. Who's gonna call a war vet a terrorist? Karl Rove ain't in the game anymore.
If Sec Powell ran instead of Obama do you think he would have encountered the same level of hostility? Of course not. Trailer Tash and WV Hillbillies are not that big a part of the American population.
I don't like Presidents with no millitary experience or contact sport particpation...going through bootcamp/ocs/football camp really builds character and fortitude. I know people like BO, much better than any of you do, both black and white, and I question their ability to lead when the shit hits the fans...being smart and rich in america really islolates you from comming into contact with adversity.[/QUOTE]
I don't think the Clintons are racist per-say they wanted to win and do it by "Any Means dot, dot, dot"
Going to school doesn't prevent racism, it then turns into a shadowy figure and never really says "Hey Nigga you done with that report yet" but getting passed up for promotion after promotion and you are more than qualified, what in the hell do you call that???
Nevermind the fact that being called "A Racist Company" is NOT in the best interest of most of the Fortune 500 media wise.
Why would I wanna bang Jenna Bush of all things???
I said Mr Blackwell because he like many educated Black folk want to say -
"Hey I made it, you can do it too, so what if the world isn't flat..."
Yours and his success doesn't change the simple facts researched by many colleges and your own Government that tell you otherwise. It doesn't change the fact that when the New Deal and Square Deals were passed, they basically had no effect on Blacks or Browns because they were not included, they were excluded until the Civil Rights mandates.
Ed Gordon and Tavis Smiley have made it but don't say stupid shiet like that, they know the World isn't flat, its ROUND and as long as the playing field is not level, people we'll continue to say - "Hey stupid the playing field isn't level"
My mother went to Georgetown, Step Father Cal State LA and my father (rip) master's from San Jose State. I'm the lazy SOB, sue me, whatever, I'm far from stupid and I don't need a sheepskin to validate my intelligence.
We didn't come from poverty or slavery, I have no connection with that part of our history, however I don't feel I'm above the struggle of the average Black person in America to say the world is flat like you seem to keep saying.
Gerald Ford played Football, who else has played a contact sport? Carter? Nope, Duyba? Nope, both Ford and Bush Sr. played on Ivy League teams hardly high caliber competition and they never challenge for the National Title on those teams, in otherwords - They SUCKED which is why Ford became a lawyer...
That's really flawed thinking homie...
Who, where to start...
First off Barry O'Bomber - his high school basketball nickname is pretty white bread apple pie. Dropped his middle name? Change his first name? The Republicans are still misdirecting about his birth certificate, hoping right up until the last second the mindless will buy into it. Imagine how much hay they would have made if he change his name - and you say you know something about national politics? His mother just made some really odd marriage choices. I'm not just talking about skin color, she got hooked up with some pretty whacked nut jobs, Obama Sr included. She must have had some serious daddy issues.
Secondly, no racism in the Ivy League? Have you guys ever gone to an Ivy League school? Social class rules and then it's racism.
Dirk you only like Presidents with military experience? Like FDR? Abraham Lincoln? Bill Clinton (come on - who here didn't do a hell of a lot better in the 90's then they are now?). Football Hero's make great Presidents? Hmm, let's ask Ford about that one.
Why don't you call up John Kerry and ask him how the War Vet thing turned out for him? Considering how Kerry went down without a fight when all he had to do was hammer W about his odd absence from Vietnam, one has to wonder if the fix was in.
Obama is the most liberal Senator? You never followed Ted Kennedy's long and rancid career.
As far as experienced presidential candidates goes, I guess an Ivy League degree isn't worth what it used to be. Eisenhower had zero political experience when he won. Lincoln spent eight years in the Illinois Legislature but only one term in the House of Representatives and lost his U.S. Senate campaign in 1858. Wilson had served as New Jersey's governor for two years when he was elected president in 1912. W served as governor of Texas from 1995 to 2000 before being sworn in as president in January of 2001. TR was governor of New York from 1898 to 1900 and served six months as vice president before becoming president after William McKinley was shot. FDR’s political experience prior to the presidency included one term as a state senator and a stint as governor of New York from 1929 to 1932. And let's not forget the perennial boob of American politics, (soon to be replaced by W) Grant. Abe was probably the greatest president in American history and Obama’s career seems to mirror his. So, what exactly does this all mean?
Oh and to make this about hot Ho’s, does anyone know how Jeri Ryan, the busty blond American actress made Obama’s senatorial career possible? Extra credit for this one. ;)
[QUOTE=Cruiser D]
Secondly, no racism in the Ivy League? Have you guys ever gone to an Ivy League school? Social class rules and then it's racism.
;)[/QUOTE]
well, since you asked:yup yup, cum laude from the 2nd or 3rd most selective ivy college. did two years at an east coast boarding school too.
one of my homie's from prep school is skull and bones and he grew up in the projects with a single mother.
your comments about the ivy league are as removed from reality as gbgb's comments about politics are.
one's college is only important in entry-level type positions. once you are established it's all about performance. but I will say that the people at mckinsey, bain & co, de shaw, goldman, the whiteshoe law firms do come ovewhlemingly from elite schools because that's where they recruit from. if you didn't go to a big time school you need to have a family member at the managing director/sr vp level to enter the recruitment process.
anyway, the smartest guy I ever knew went to ucla, studied phillosphy, and now makes a modest living writing test questions for the sat and lsat.
dj, who cares about intelligence..it's about playing the game of life and winning it to a degree that will allow you to do what you want....for you that means bedding hot women; for others it means traveling to exotic places, having a nice car, and a big crib....what good is it to be smart and broke? no pussy, unless you like hippie girls that neither shave nor shower and live in boulder or humboldt county.
[QUOTE=DirkDingy][QUOTE=CBGBConnisur] Do you think Bush or Cheney lived in adversity?? QUOTE]
that's exactly my point!!! anyway, bush was a fighter pilot. even if he dodged the draft i assume he went through ocs and fighter pilot school...which is more than obama or cheney ever did. cheney was a lineman at yale. I'm not syaing that playing football makes one a good leader, but it certainly makes one a better man.
[/QUOTE]
If that's true, how do you explain the nauseating piece of shit that Five Deferments Dick evolved into in his adult life - spending his entire career helping various scumbag Presidents evade the Constitutional checks on their Presidential powers, and sending braver young Americans than he to die in furtherance of his facist ideology of enriching oil companies, one of which he is and remains a major shareholder.
It's inconceivable that, absent playing football at Yale, Cheney could have somehow been an even lesser human being than he did turn out to be.
And don't make any assumptions about the rigors of Dumbya's preparation. As a legacy son of his famous and well connected father, all sorts of doors were propped open for him that he would never have cleared on the merits of his own character - including the one allowing him to simply not show up to his training duty for nearly six months in Alabama, and yet still receive an honorable discharge rather than a conviction for desertion during his years of deep cocaine and alcohol addiction.
I might also point out that such stellar representations of character as Lawrence Phillips, O.J. Simpson, Pacman Jones, and Michael Vick have played major college football - along with any number of other felons. Better men indeed.
Oh, and the last President with a pre-Presidency resume similar to that of Barack Obama's was another legal scholar from the Illinois Statehouse, by the name of Abraham Lincoln. He turned out to be remarkably well qualified for the job of saving the nation from it's worst crisis ever. Not because of his experience, which was marginal, but because of his wisdom and character and personal resolve, which were all remarkable - and, not in the least, by his ability to inspire and lead through great oratory in support of his personal vision of his mission.
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Oh, and Cruiser D. Jeri Ryan's messy divorce with her husband, including allegations of spousal abuse, allowed Barack to slide into an easy victory in his first run for the Senate seat from Illinois, running against Ryan's ex. But more credit should perhaps go to Iron Mike Ditka, who turned down the Republicans last ditch bid to put him on the ticket instead of Ryan's ex-husband, because he didn't want to give up his lucrative gig endorsing gambling casinos.
Yes I know degrees make the world go around... I just haven't had clue what to do with myself and I am not of the camp that just going to school allows you to "figure things out".
I am more than likely going to stay in the Automotive industry, I just need to make the jump from retail to wholesale or manufacture. You can do that based on experience which I now have as oppose to having a degree.
I'll be fine, I'm not worried actually.
Activist women tend not to be cute, rather plain but are usually good in the bedroom, if they aren't gay that is. They are basically the same as artisty-fartsy types and I have banged a few of those.
I come from the school (of thought) that more money causes more problems socially and you seem to post more about your problems than your successes. You never know the woman's true intentions if she knows your loaded. Since most of the Industrial world is not PC, Russians for example will just be up front and name their price as you have discovered.
But over on the other extreme end of the usual topics around, many Western men have been successful with their EE women and while many like to "shop" they aren't overtly materialistic and more interested in a stable environment.
I dunno dawg, one day a light will go on and you'll be happy I assume.
DD my secondary education was in Geneva and I went to a university in Cambridge. You are right, I probably don't know too much about the Ivy League. :) The Ivy League is all about legacies and minorities with a token middle class person thrown in for laughs and giggles.
Ditka was a last gasp of the Republican's hoping for a Ventura. Obama had been a local player on the state level for years. Jeri Ryan hooked up with Brandon Braga during her time on ST, when she was still married. The major allegation that she made was that Jack Ryan wanted her to be a group sex toy at a sex club in NYC and then Paris. If you read about it you'll find he got 'Swift Boated' by the Obama campaign, Obama supporters waged a private campaign to get Ryan’s 1999 divorce records unsealed while Obama publicly said the records should be kept sealed.
Obama went to Punahou, which is the same high school as AOL founder Steve
Case. Its one of the most elite prep schools in the US. He then went to Columbia as a transfer and then to Harvard. Obama largely spent most of his formative years living with his mother and grandparents in Hawaii, his experience was a sharp contrast from most African American males. He even said he never really thought about his race for a long time.
Obama being compared to Lincoln??? LOL. I also heard people comparing to him to JFK(JFK's own daughter commenting on this), also FDR. Honestly, if he was a white male with the same social background, no one would be paying so much attention. The reality is that America has run out of leaders to that caliber. One thing that has stuck to me is Joe Biden's comments that Obama will be tested within the first 6 months of his administration, assuming he wins. Anyone who thinks the world is not becoming more multipolar and that US power in the world is now declining is in a dreamland like $20 a barrel oil. ROFLMAO.
As far as big companies like Goldman and Merrill are concerned, they generally hire people from the best universities. I went to a very good non Ivy League school and still did alright. Wall Street firms actually hire a lot of people from outside the Ivy League, schools like UChicago, MIT, Duke, Northwestern, Berkeley, UVA, and Stanford are probably as good as any of the ancient eight and just as difficult to gain admission. Anyway those companies are now permanently tarred and feathered. Its amazing to see white shoe firms like Morgan Stanley go cap in hand to foreign companies and governments. Didn't you know China bailed out MS earlier this year?
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]Obama went to Punahou, which is the same high school as AOL founder Steve
Case. Its one of the most elite prep schools in the US. He then went to Columbia as a transfer and then to Harvard. Obama largely spent most of his formative years living with his mother and grandparents in Hawaii, his experience was a sharp contrast from most African American males. He even said he never really thought about his race for a long time.
Obama being compared to Lincoln??? LOL. I also heard people comparing to him to JFK(JFK's own daughter commenting on this), also FDR. Honestly, if he was a white male with the same social background, no one would be paying so much attention. The reality is that America has run out of leaders to that caliber. One thing that has stuck to me is Joe Biden's comments that Obama will be tested within the first 6 months of his administration, assuming he wins. Anyone who thinks the world is not becoming more multipolar and that US power in the world is now declining is in a dreamland like $20 a barrel oil. ROFLMAO.
As far as big companies like Goldman and Merrill are concerned, they generally hire people from the best universities. I went to a very good non Ivy League school and still did alright. Wall Street firms actually hire a lot of people from outside the Ivy League, schools like UChicago, MIT, Duke, Northwestern, Berkeley, UVA, and Stanford are probably as good as any of the ancient eight and just as difficult to gain admission. Anyway those companies are now permanently tarred and feathered. Its amazing to see white shoe firms like Morgan Stanley go cap in hand to foreign companies and governments. Didn't you know China bailed out MS earlier this year?[/QUOTE]
I notice that, other than laughing dismissively, you didn't actually present a single argument as to why the Lincoln comparison (PRIOR to Lincoln becoming President) is not entirely valid. I will grant you that Obama's educational background is substantially stronger than Lincoln's was. And incidentally, Obama attended Punahou on an academic scholarship - which, admittedly, is not something that most African American males can claim concerning their high school.
Of course Obama will be tested, as Biden stated. Just as surely, McCain would be as well. ALL Presidents get tested. McCain is full of crap when he claims that he has already passed those type of tests. In fact, during the current stock market crash, he failed wildly with his oscillating, panicked response, which is why he's trailing so badly in the polls right now.
Well first of all the United States is not in the position that it was when the Lincoln was President. There are no States seceding from the Union, there a lot of issues dogging America but nothing as severe as what existed in the mid 19th Century, America is not exactly going to implode but its certainly going to enter an era where international powers are going to test the nation for the first time since the first half of the 20th Century. Obama's youth was nothing like African Americans in most urban areas. He lived a relatively sheltered existence with a white mother and grandparents on the island of Hawaii. I myself grew up in a cold Northeastern city in a blue collar neighborhood. I actually met a few people who went to Obama's high school when I went to college, they were nose in air, from what I know Obama went to that school on a scholarship, so he was probably not like the other alumni of that school that I met in real life. That is besides the point, I think Obama will be a better leader than McCain for a number of reasons, the first being that he represents a change from the last eight years which have not been exactly good, although one thing I give Bush credit for is that no major terrorist attack has happened on American soil since 9-11, there were several major attacks against Westerners in Asia and in Europe since that day. The second is that he is level headed, he does not seem to get upset easy, which is a great characteristic in this time. The other is his age, he is going to be one of the youngest Presidents elected, only JFK and TR were younger, I think he will
be able to tune himself better with young people than McCain or Palin, which is important because many younger Americans need to become more involved in politics.
The reality is that the world is becoming a more multipolar place, the unipolar moment that started after the Soviet Union collapsed is now over. Obama has more of an international view than McCain which should help. Considering all the troubles brewing, especially the global economic crisis being blamed on America and its inability to control malfeasance on Wall Street, other nations are not going to give the US another chance to screw it up all over again. America will definitely survive this but it won't be pressing its economic agenda on other nations like it did in the past.
Still when it comes to McCain vs. Obama, McCain has clearly seen more adversity. C'mon, the man spent three years in POW camp in Southeast Asia.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur] Still when it comes to McCain vs. Obama, McCain has clearly seen more adversity. C'mon, the man spent three years in POW camp in Southeast Asia.[/QUOTE]
What, exactly, does this have to do with McCain's judgment, with his understanding of economic issues, or his ability to govern? The fact is, McCain has shown, first with the choice of Palin, and second, with his wildly inconsistent and rash handling of the financial crisis, that he lacks the ability to deal with these issues. He also has demonstrated a similar stubbornness as George W. Bush has shown, which has gotten our nation into it's current situations. McCain has, along with Bush/Cheney, consistently misjudged the relative importance of Iraq vs. Afghanistan, and as a result, we still have not caught Bin Laden. And as a result, Al Qaida has been found in their encrypted websites, to be hoping for a McCain victory in order to further their goals vs. the U.S.
If the President's job involved having his arms broken and being locked in a cell, I would agree that McCain was much more qualified than Obama. It doesn't. It involves the ability to make a reasoned analysis of any number of complex problems, come up with creative, flexible solutions, and sell those solutions to the American Public. McCain does not have anywhere NEAR the skills on that set of criteria, compared to Obama. McCain has a GREAT temperament to survive POW treatment, but LOUSY temperament to be President. And god help us all if Palin, the single least qualified person in history to run for VP, were to become President, which, if McCain were to be elected, there is between a 25 and 30% actuarial chance of him not surviving his first term.
And the fact is, The U.S. IS in deep shit, courtesy of the Bush/Cheney policies which McCain agreed with 92% of the time. We need someone who will UN DO virtually everything that Bush and Cheney have done to this nation. NOT someone who thinks that 92% of those things were the correct policies. Colin Powell explained it all better than I could. McCain demonstrated questionable judgment, and he represents a continuation of the policies which have been a total fiasco for our country. Obama has the possibility of being a transformative figure in history - something McCain could not possibly be, because he fails to recognize the need for it.
[QUOTE=Member #2041]I...a single argument as to why the Lincoln comparison (PRIOR to Lincoln becoming President) is not entirely valid.[/QUOTE]
Lincoln was elected because he stood for a specific set of controversial ideas. Lincoln's ideas were galvanized in American history during the Lincoln-Douglas debates. The ideas suggested such direction that the country was pulled apart by the fact of Lincoln's election. It's not likely half of the United States are going to split away from the Union after an Obama election. Lincoln is a tough act to follow.
If Joe Biden were heading the Democratic ticket right now - using the same (Obama's, not Lincoln's) ideas - it would be damn boring and unattractive to most Americans.
I would not completely dismiss a comparison between Obama and Lincoln, but as far as it goes, what's the difference between Obama and Franklin Pierce? It's a bit more valid a comparison. So, I'm not ready to erect a massive Greek temple to Obama on the Mall just yet (although I think we should spring for marble columns, if it comes to that).
If he wins, The Big O is going to be important in American history, people will love him even if he screws up a bit. The sentimental will want him to do well. He will have huge political capital going in to the Whitehouse.
I guess the main question for me here tonight is - will this result in Americans being able to freely travel and spend money in Cuba? It strikes me that this one of the things Obama could do that would improve life for the typical ISGer.
[QUOTE=Jelly Donut] I would not completely dismiss a comparison between Obama and Lincoln, but as far as it goes, what's the difference between Obama and Franklin Pierce? It's a bit more valid a comparison. So, I'm not ready to erect a massive Greek temple to Obama on the Mall just yet. .[/QUOTE]
Was Franklin Pierce known as a brilliant orator? Was he known as an inspirational leader who was capable of mobilizing unheard-of turn-out? I think not. What Pierce WAS, was a guy who was viewed as innoccuous, and inoffensive, but he was also a life-long alcoholic, known for poor judgment, who died of cirrhosis of the liver. The comparison with Franklin Pierce is MUCH more relevant with Dubya than with anyone else.
Wrong, the US is in deep shit because of the stupidity of American voters who elected Bush/Cheney twice, not to mention some of the ridiculously bad habits so many Americans have, we spend more than we earn, use too much credit and get ourselves in debt, as much as 85 percent of Americans live with debt. Even in 2000, America was in a very precarious position, China began its rise to global prominence, the Euro was only a couple of years away, etc.
You were arguing on the merits of adversity building character, from any angle McCain faced far more hardship than Obama. Being tortured in a third world prison for three years and surviving is a big feat if you ask me. Did you even read Obama's books? He did not even consider himself black until he was 12 years old. Obama lived a fairly comfortable existence for someone of his background. Saw the photo of young Obama on his grandfather's back?? I actually grew up in the outer boroughs of NYC and few people I knew would not have that kind of memory of a middle aged white male. I knew a few kids in elementary school who were called poo face when they were 6, it might sound silly but these kids faced racism early on. Obama had a white mommy who sheltered him, and I consider Obama biracial.
Obama is going to be an important landmark figure in American history. He is going to lead a very different American than that of the last century. From what I know, he has lived a very blessed life.
[QUOTE=Member #2041]Was Franklin Pierce known as a brilliant orator? Was he known as an inspirational leader who was capable of mobilizing unheard-of turn-out? I think not. What Pierce WAS, was a guy who was viewed as innoccuous, and inoffensive, but he was also a life-long alcoholic, known for poor judgment, who died of cirrhosis of the liver. The comparison with Franklin Pierce is MUCH more relevant with Dubya than with anyone else.[/QUOTE]
Bush is like Polk.
I did not say Pierce was a great comparison, I'm suggesting he's better than Lincoln. Obama is the most deliberately inoffensive and measured candidate since that series pre-Lincoln forgetables. You are very defensive. Why is it so important to you that Obama be like Lincoln?
Drinking doesn't have anything to do with it, although I would suggest to you that much like the many brillant American lawyers who have made the transition into Democratic politics - Clinton, Spitzer, Edwards - the list is quite long. They all have something going on. If you know anything about law school, lawyers and the type of people who have been running for office since daddy left home - they all have some demon keeping the engine going. Obama's run on heavy fuel for a long time. Nothing may come of that or he could be the next Caligula. If you respect history, you respect the possibilities.
Anyway. Cuba?
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]You were arguing on the merits of adversity building character, from any angle McCain faced far more hardship than Obama. Being tortured in a third world prison for three years and surviving is a big feat if you ask me. [/QUOTE]
No, I wasn't arguing that at all. One of the other posters was arguing that playing football built Dick Cheney's character - I merely argued that was a silly claim. The fact is, there are plenty of people of admirable, strong character who lack the temperament and wisdom to be good Presidents. McCain is one of them. The fact that he's been a courageous American Hero is very admirable. It does not, however, imbue him with the particular skills that the next President will need in our current national situation. It may well have made him a far better war President than Bush has been (a very low hurdle, to be sure) - although, his obviously poor judgment has not been too heartening on this score. But, in any case, his courage in a POW camp has nothing whatsoever to do with managing the financial and economic turmoil that is the main issue facing the next President - and his performance on this score has been frightening at best over the past month.
And BTW, Polk was a FAR better President than Bush. Polk was one of the better Presidents of the 1820-1860 period. Bush is one of the worst ever.
It's actually not important at all that Obama be compared to Lincoln. I merely point out that Lincoln had very little specific experience - less in fact than Obama. Obama HAS shown to be of FAR above average intellect, and extremely measured temperament. Unlike Pierce, Obama has shown very savvy judgment on critical issues, And Obama has managed a highly competent campaign - far more competent, in fact, than McCain's. The fact is, McCain HAS shown himself to be rash, impulsive, erratic, and with abysmal judgment in his VP choice and in his dealing with the financial meltdown. Obama, on the other hand, has shown himself to be measured, in control, reasoned, and highly disciplined.
Admittedly, McCain demonstrated great personal courage 40 years ago in a POW camp in Vietnam. It's unclear just how that will enable him to govern in a financial crisis, when he himself has professed a lack of knowledge of economics, and his key economic advisors, Phil Gramm and Alan Greenspan, are two of the folks MOST responsible for causing/exacerbating the present crisis. And his selection of Palin as his VP choice was nothing short of irresponsible.
Well you have to add to the mix that the next coming Superpowers are not Democratic countries, and will have economic clout as big or greater than the US. The winds of change are blowing. In my part of the world, everyone is obsesses with Asia, the Asian century is becoming more and more a reality.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]Well you have to add to the mix that the next coming Superpowers are not Democratic countries, and will have economic clout as big or greater than the US. The winds of change are blowing. In my part of the world, everyone is obsesses with Asia, the Asian century is becoming more and more a reality.[/QUOTE]
Which is exactly why the next President needs to have the ability to understand Asian ways of thinking, and how to reach out to them in our dealings with them - not in confrontation, but in collaboration. Obama brings that to the table.
[QUOTE=Member #2041]
And BTW, Polk was a FAR better President than Bush. .[/QUOTE]
Polk was not popular. For that matter, Lincoln was not that popular either. A lot of people would have said Grant was way more important than Lincoln in the late 1860's. It's very difficult to say how people will judge Bush. If Obama cuts defense spending and the United States is attacked again, well, history twists and turns, doesn't it?
[QUOTE=Jelly Donut]Polk was not popular. For that matter, Lincoln was not that popular either. A lot of people would have said Grant was way more important than Lincoln in the late 1860's. It's very difficult to say how people will judge Bush. If Obama cuts defense spending and the United States is attacked again, well, history twists and turns, doesn't it?[/QUOTE]
The verdict on Bush is completely settled. He's a total fiasco in every respect. And defense spending had nothing to do with 9/11 - we were fully armed, but against the wrong enemy - again, that goes to judgment. Bush and Cheney came into office looking to overthrow Saddam to control Iraqi Oil, and it tainted everything that they did. They were warned by the outgoing Clinton admin that Al Qaida was going to be our main threat, and they failed to heed the warning.
Obama has yet to be elected, let alone govern.
Well we will find out what Obama can do, just don't expect some kind of miracle.
That would be plain foolish. A lot of people have some kind of insane idea that Obama is the Messiah.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]Well we will find out what Obama can do, just don't expect some kind of miracle.
That would be plain foolish. A lot of people have some kind of insane idea that Obama is the Messiah.[/QUOTE]
I don't expect miracles. What I DO expect from an Obama Presidency is simple competence, and a willingness to engage the rest of the world on terms that are not unilateral, but collaborative, as well as a basic change in philosophy regarding appropriate regulation of market mechanisms - the lack of which is responsible for the mortgage meltdown and the fact that nearly 50 million Americans cannot buy health insurance.
McCain might well deliver on the first of these, but he assuredly would not deliver on the other two.
Guys:
Apologize for asking probably stupid questions - since I'm NOT American and do not live there. On the other hand, One of the few "A's" I received whilst in College in the States was in American History as I truly wanted to learn what the good Ole U.S. of A is all about.
It is in this same vein that I ask these questions:
1. What happens if McCain gets elected i/o Obama? There IS the good ole South who MAY block Obama's bid based upon the "unspoken" word - race. If this happens, would America break out in a race war? At least little conflagarations here and there?
2. Do most people in the U.S. realize what Palin (who may indeed end up as President of the U.S. if McCain gets elected - and die) really is all about? She is a fundamentalist Assembly of God congregationalist - and the AG's or Holy Rollers truly believe that whatever they do is under the DIRECT command/instructions from God:
Corinthians 12:9-11 states that the "..........gift of the Lord cometh in many ways....to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines............/"
At frequent fundamentalist AG's church sessions, the phenomena of "Speaking in tongues" happens, followed by someone else in the congregation "interpreting" such message into English. Thus the AG's really believe that they've got God's direct command. At last that is what my impression is. Another prominent AG was John Ashcroft.
I've got more questions etc and here I want to again apologize if I am venturing into unwelcome waters and as such I'm wanting to first see if I'm gonna get replied to sensibly first or if I'm gonna be flamed.
Thank you all for your forebearance.
SEAJ
Joe,
1) No
2) Sarah Palin is very good at doing what grandfatherly white men tell her to do, whether it's God or the powers at the RNP.
To all,
I always like to think of W as Grant, a populist dupe, front man and alcoholic. Substitute the massive corruption of Reconstruction for Iraq.
1) No won't happen... Outside of banning of the election for some crisis, he's going to win despite about a 30% White (some Latino and Asian as well) Racist vote. The problem? 90%+ Black Vote, 90%+ Latino Vote and 30-35%+ White Vote - 300+ Electoral Votes = WINNER
2) About 65% of Americans KNOW what Palin is really about.... That's why there rumblings already in the McCain campaign and finger pointing to Palin as the reason why McCain is loosing...
Most people think W and company have brought the country to the brink. People look at their 401k's, know (or are) people who can't find a job or had their house foreclosed/foreclosing on. And regardless of how the Right tries to spin it most people blame the W administration. As perceived terrorist activity drove the result home for W in 2004 I think financial terror is going to drive it home for Obama, if not in a landslide only because he is a black man named Barack Obama.
I’m just wondering how the 100’s of millions he ‘owes’ is going to effect Barry and I hope he doesn’t become an affirmative action president or for that matter a sell out to any SIG/PAC.
Palin was a pretty off the wall choice, did they even vet her? I wonder if she was even on the over/under radar before she got picked? If their idea was to appeal to the Hillary vote why did they pick an anti Hillary. Are they taking pages out of the Democrats 'How to lose an election play book'? If either Gore or Kerry had picked a populist VP they probably would have gotten the nod. Of course I don't think Kerry (the DNC) thought Edwards was going to be the dud he was. Liberman was just DNC politics. Maybe in 2012 the DNC will run a black female gay jew who's parents are illegal immigrants.
[QUOTE=SE Asia Joe]Guys:
Apologize for asking probably stupid questions - since I'm NOT American and do not live there. On the other hand, One of the few "A's" I received whilst in College in the States was in American History as I truly wanted to learn what the good Ole U.S. of A is all about.
It is in this same vein that I ask these questions:
1. What happens if McCain gets elected i/o Obama? There IS the good ole South who MAY block Obama's bid based upon the "unspoken" word - race. If this happens, would America break out in a race war? At least little conflagarations here and there?
2. Do most people in the U.S. realize what Palin (who may indeed end up as President of the U.S. if McCain gets elected - and die) really is all about? She is a fundamentalist Assembly of God congregationalist - and the AG's or Holy Rollers truly believe that whatever they do is under the DIRECT command/instructions from God:
Corinthians 12:9-11 states that the "..........gift of the Lord cometh in many ways....to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines............/"
At frequent fundamentalist AG's church sessions, the phenomena of "Speaking in tongues" happens, followed by someone else in the congregation "interpreting" such message into English. Thus the AG's really believe that they've got God's direct command. At last that is what my impression is. Another prominent AG was John Ashcroft.
I've got more questions etc and here I want to again apologize if I am venturing into unwelcome waters and as such I'm wanting to first see if I'm gonna get replied to sensibly first or if I'm gonna be flamed.
Thank you all for your forebearance.
SEAJ[/QUOTE]
Dude...You should look America from the eyes of spiritualism than politics.
This little squibble here and there, is not what America is about...It is the most blessed nation on earth.
Even if Tomarrow ..Sarah Palin or John McCain or even his grand father or even Joe the plumber takes over as President....Its destiny has being charted long time back.
Its the founding fathers...who have taken all sides equally to see the worst of the worst if they become president will not effect what America is today.
People mis-calculate ..American economy and power is not based on Intelligence...You have enough "intellligent people in Asia and Russia" ..It is based upon "TRUST"
American society is very highly evolved...It has many faces...Republicans are as much required in America as does Democrats....America needs Sarah palin as much as Obama..both will show up at the right time.
Its not about about persons..but the vibration the whole idea that is America that will personify in an Individual.
Democrats hates republicans and vice versa..but they do not understand..the day..when either liberal and conservative way of living cease to co-exist in America that will be the END.
That day is way far off..America still has very good Karmic people around
Obama is going to be elected and he is going to be elected just as much by white people as by black/hispanics/asians.
The whole race issue needs to be examined more closely.
Obama's mom is white. But he's still black for everybody.
Lenny Kravitz is black for everybody. But his dad was a white Jew.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sy_Kravitz[/url]
People of all races need to wake up and the certainly need to work together to get America back on track.
I doubt Obama will lose, the chances of that happening are very slim. Its definitely going to be a quantum leap in American history when he becomes commander in chief, it will completely change people's perception of race. W was able to win 2004 because people still were concerned about terrorism and national security, and that was the biggest issue then, no one really considered an economic storm was headed towards America. Right now the big worry is the economy and not global geopolitics. If anything this is the beginning of new era where America begins to think about its own internal issues rather than policing the world outside. Most Americans do not want their country embroiled in foreign conflicts, and there will be a more isolationist stance in the coming years, either that or America will act more multilaterally, acting with other major powers. The Bush Doctrine of unilateral regime change will never happen again.
Lenny Kravitz is black with a white Jewish father but most people would see him as black. Most of his fans tend to be white. Most people of biracial backgrounds tend to associate themselves with the minority group. I rarely heard of anyone who is biracial who would consider themselves white.
Dr S, I like to keep it simple, Obama and Kravitz are men, they are black skinned, that makes them black men. Is it inherently bad to identify them by their skin color? Of course for the next four years Obama won't have to worry about that. Instead of people saying yeah, the black guy standing next to the white guy, they'll be saying yeah, the white guy standing next to the President of the United States. We are the fourth generation past where being a black man tossed you automatically into a caste. It's time to get over that, for both entitlement and discrimination. I think slowly but surely the US is doing that.
Then to take it even one step further and make it even simpler everyone regardless of location and skin color is basically the same. Well except for me, I'm just too damn handsome. :)
[QUOTE=Cruiser D]Most people think W and company have brought the country to the brink. People look at their 401k's, know (or are) people who can't find a job or had their house foreclosed/foreclosing on. And regardless of how the Right tries to spin it most people blame the W administration. As perceived terrorist activity drove the result home for W in 2004 I think financial terror is going to drive it home for Obama, if not in a landslide only because he is a black man named Barack Obama.
I’m just wondering how the 100’s of millions he ‘owes’ is going to effect Barry and I hope he doesn’t become an affirmative action president or for that matter a sell out to any SIG/PAC.
Palin was a pretty off the wall choice, did they even vet her? I wonder if she was even on the over/under radar before she got picked? If their idea was to appeal to the Hillary vote why did they pick an anti Hillary. Are they taking pages out of the Democrats 'How to lose an election play book'? If either Gore or Kerry had picked a populist VP they probably would have gotten the nod. Of course I don't think Kerry (the DNC) thought Edwards was going to be the dud he was. Liberman was just DNC politics. Maybe in 2012 the DNC will run a black female gay jew who's parents are illegal immigrants.[/QUOTE]
Here's the story of how they "Found" Palin -
[url]http://www.democracynow.org/2008/10/29/jane_mayer_on_the_insiders_how[/url]
[QUOTE=Cruiser D]Dr S, I like to keep it simple, Obama and Kravitz are men, they are black skinned, that makes them black men. Is it inherently bad to identify them by their skin color? Of course for the next four years Obama won't have to worry about that. Instead of people saying yeah, the black guy standing next to the white guy, they'll be saying yeah, the white guy standing next to the President of the United States. We are the fourth generation past where being a black man tossed you automatically into a caste. It's time to get over that, for both entitlement and discrimination. I think slowly but surely the US is doing that.
Then to take it even one step further and make it even simpler everyone regardless of location and skin color is basically the same. Well except for me, I'm just too damn handsome. :)[/QUOTE]
Well.... There are more negative things in the world that are black than are white. White is seen as "pure", "correct" "right"
Black -
You know - The 8 Ball, (Fear of a) Black Hat, Black Cats, Dark Vader - Black is seen as BAD, Negative, Ugly, Horrible.
Draw from what what you will, but it would be much better when your just a plain ole "American" like you are in Europe. I'm not a Black American in Europe, I'm just an American that happens to be Black and its not seen as a negative...
[QUOTE=SE Asia Joe]
1. What happens if McCain gets elected i/o Obama?
[/QUOTE]
At this point there would be some significant problems. With the election a matter of days away, there seems to be little question in the mainstream media that Obama will win the election. The media has annointed him in the great tradition of "Dewey Wins!". If McCain were to win, it would be by a very tight electoral margin.
If Obama does not it's almost certain there would be race riots along the same lines as, say, the stuff you saw with Rodney King in the 1990's. More widespread, however if you're thinking it would be something like Hutus vs. Tutsis - that's not going to happen. Obama would calm things down with an eye on 2012. Again, that's not the way the wind is blowing.
The reality is Obama is the man of the hour. The average American voter wants something that is going to relieve the immediate distress swirling around the credit crisis, slowing growth and restore confidence in some kind of forward-looking vision. McCain can't do that.
Obama as President goes to the heart of the American dream. He's the Jackie Robinson of politics; you can tell people are already suspending judgement and voting him into the Hall of Fame. He's got more teflon than Reagan.
Which is great. There are not a lot of countries where a guy who's dad is Kenyan can become President. It proves something about the United States that most every American wants to be true.
Highly unscientific and not necessary reliable polls in European newspapers show overwhelming support for Obama among readers. No surprise there, but don't you think Obama is going to be an enormous let down for majority of American voters? Expectations of Change, are almost beyond reality, given current state of finance and coming recession. Needless to say, some of you may question Obama's odds of launching his agenda successfully, others will have no doubts.
While Obama's charisma and common sense approach is irresistable to most voters, his honeymoon may be short, if people keep losing jobs and economy heads south. Additionally, the fact that skin colour still matters, is highly controversial, and is going to affect Obama's most certain presidency. So far, he's been very cautious by focusing on real world issues, but reading latest posts here, I see the unspoken issue is still surfacing.
Anyway, I wish good luck to both candidates, but don't think there will be much of a change.
[QUOTE=Leeuwen]Highly unscientific and not necessary reliable polls in European newspapers show overwhelming support for Obama among readers. No surprise there, but don't you think Obama is going to be an enormous let down for majority of American voters? Expectations of Change, are almost beyond reality, given current state of finance and coming recession. Needless to say, some of you may question Obama's odds of launching his agenda successfully, others will have no doubts.
While Obama's charisma and common sense approach is irresistable to most voters, his honeymoon may be short, if people keep losing jobs and economy heads south. Additionally, the fact that skin colour still matters, is highly controversial, and is going to affect Obama's most certain presidency. So far, he's been very cautious by focusing on real world issues, but reading latest posts here, I see the unspoken issue is still surfacing.
Anyway, I wish good luck to both candidates, but don't think there will be much of a change.[/QUOTE]
All I'll say is -
FDR did ALOT in his first 100 days and today things aren't much different. We didn't have a complete collapse because of the protections Teddy and Franklin put in place because of Conservative movement. Look the Conservative movement weather it was Dem or Republican, Wigs or whatever, they have crashed the economy more than once, actually they have done it TWICE!
They under-mined Reconstruction, they crashed the economy twice in the 1800's, they don't deserve to rule ever again, period.
[QUOTE=Leeuwen] but don't you think Obama is going to be an enormous let down for majority of American voters? Expectations of Change, are almost beyond reality, given current state of finance and coming recession. Needless to say, some of you may question Obama's odds of launching his agenda successfully, others will have no doubts.[/QUOTE] If they think like the lady in this interview, (and I think many do) yes they’re in for a big let down.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=381gFG4Crr8[/url]
[quote=punter 127]if they think like the lady in this interview, (and i think many do) yes they’re in for a big let down.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=381gfg4crr8[/url][/quote]
ummm nope, you must not be reading anything but there is a movement that the "liberal media" doesn't talk about because to them its bad news for say nbc/msnbc who is own by ge who beyond toasters and such makes parts for bombs, missiles and fighter jets.... conflict of interest homie.
much of hollywood, the recording industry and the telecommunications market is anti-net neutrality, obama supports net neutrality and opening up the "white signals" (unused tv signals) for nation-wide wifi system, as proposed by google.
the us chamber of commerce is trying to push back against the employee free choice act including wal-mart. obama and almost the entire dem congress supports this act - done
the automakers say they need more money to stay afloat, obama has said he'll listen. he will, no hidden agendas - done
he's bullish on a green economy and frankly you need to get on the bus too dawg its about to leave you at the station. prop 1a in california will get passed and we'll have the first real high speed rail system in america, paid for by the bond and federal funds obama and congress will make available.
those making 250,000 and up will get higher taxes, ha-ha, i'm not crying for you. that itself will pay for most of the programs that will happen anyway. putting the country back to work means larger tax base for sales taxes and income taxes
i think its 30 million americans make $50,000 or less and living paycheck to paycheck including me.
i'm not going to keep breaking it down for people, the government via congress and every president since carter has looked out for you. a nation is judged on how it treats its least among them. current grading of the united states at d -
28th in health care
30th in infant mortality
us ranked 19th best place to live
only mexico and turkey has a worst wealth to poverty spread
we have plenty of money to prop up phony governments, fight clandestine wars, fight wars period and bail out s&l's and now wall street and investment banks, it has to stop... this is not the time to be fiscally conservative because most of the people arguing for that already got theirs...
[quote=dj fourmoney]ummm nope, you must not be reading anything but there is a movement that the "liberal media" doesn't talk about because to them its bad news for say nbc/msnbc who is own by ge who beyond toasters and such makes parts for bombs, missiles and fighter jets.... conflict of interest homie.
much of hollywood, the recording industry and the telecommunications market is anti-net neutrality, obama supports net neutrality and opening up the "white signals" (unused tv signals) for nation-wide wifi system, as proposed by google.
the us chamber of commerce is trying to push back against the employee free choice act including wal-mart. obama and almost the entire dem congress supports this act - done
the automakers say they need more money to stay afloat, obama has said he'll listen. he will, no hidden agendas - done
he's bullish on a green economy and frankly you need to get on the bus too dawg its about to leave you at the station. prop 1a in california will get passed and we'll have the first real high speed rail system in america, paid for by the bond and federal funds obama and congress will make available.
those making 250,000 and up will get higher taxes, ha-ha, i'm not crying for you. that itself will pay for most of the programs that will happen anyway. putting the country back to work means larger tax base for sales taxes and income taxes
i think its 30 million americans make $50,000 or less and living paycheck to paycheck including me.
i'm not going to keep breaking it down for people, the government via congress and every president since carter has looked out for you. a nation is judged on how it treats its least among them. current grading of the united states at d -
28th in health care
30th in infant mortality
us ranked 19th best place to live
only mexico and turkey has a worst wealth to poverty spread
we have plenty of money to prop up phony governments, fight clandestine wars, fight wars period and bail out s&l's and now wall street and investment banks, it has to stop... this is not the time to be fiscally conservative because most of the people arguing for that already got theirs...[/quote]
hi dj fourmoney,
my post was intended to be a reply to leeuwen, but i hope your tirade made you feel better. i guess we all need to vent from time to time.
i’m sure you didn’t mean anything by it but, my name is punter 127 (on this forum) and not “homie” or “dawg”. please don’t call me names and i won’t call you names, ok?
i consider names like that offensive.
i’m glad you’re [i]“not going to keep breaking it down for people”[/i] because we’ve all heard that socialist bullshit before, and i’m not drinking the kool-aid!
but hey that’s just me, to each his own.
now if you think the lady in the video won’t have to worry about buying gas or making mortgage payments (that’s what she said, and that was the point of my post) just because obama becomes president, well that pretty much makes my case and speaks for itself.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=381gfg4crr8[/url]
feel free to rant all you want, but i won’t be replying.
have a nice day!
As I said, slowly but surely we are overcoming that.
Do you think it was a coincidence that they picked a black man to voice Darth Vader? :)
I know what you mean about the last part. I was reply to a girl on a local dating site and she asked me what I was, in context of English, Irish, Japanese, Martian, Whatever. I replied, American.
[QUOTE=DJ FourMoney]Well.... There are more negative things in the world that are black than are white. White is seen as "pure", "correct" "right"
Black -
You know - The 8 Ball, (Fear of a) Black Hat, Black Cats, Dark Vader - Black is seen as BAD, Negative, Ugly, Horrible.
Draw from what you will, but it would be much better when your just a plain ole "American" like you are in Europe. I'm not a Black American in Europe, I'm just an American that happens to be Black and its not seen as a negative...[/QUOTE]
Anyone else catch AP breaking that Obama's aunt is living in the US illegally. In Boston no less in government housing for the last five years. It will be interesting to see how Obama will handle it. Illegal immigration was a real sore issue with the middle class before they got worried about paying their mortgage. Anyone caught in the country illegally should be deported at once. Caught a second time jail time. NO government social benefits for ANY non citizens, legal or otherwise.
[QUOTE=Cruiser D]Anyone else catch AP breaking that Obama's aunt is living in the US illegally. In Boston no less in government housing for the last five years. It will be interesting to see how Obama will handle it. Illegal immigration was a real sore issue with the middle class before they got worried about paying their mortgage. Anyone caught in the country illegally should be deported at once. Caught a second time jail time. NO government social benefits for ANY non citizens, legal or otherwise.[/QUOTE]Yeah I caught that. If I were him I'd avoid making ANY statement on it until after the election, except for maybe a "it's being investigated".
Damned if you do damned if you don't. In any case, pretty damn funny.
[QUOTE=Doctor_Skank]Yeah I caught that. If I were him I'd avoid making ANY statement on it until after the election, except for maybe a "it's being investigated".
Damned if you do damned if you don't. In any case, pretty damn funny.[/QUOTE]
she's the half sister of his absentee father. i assume that barrack will have her ass deported--with her tacit complicity-and arrange for her to get a few bucks in niroabi.
[QUOTE=DirkDingy]she's the half sister of his absentee father. i assume that barrack will have her ass deported--with her tacit complicity-and arrange for her to get a few bucks in niroabi.[/QUOTE]
It's not like he picked her to be his running mate, and then discovered that she misused her office to cover her family's travel expenses, or to get her relative fired. It's also not like his wife was delinquent on the property taxes on a condo in La Jolla. The difference is, those inappropriate/illegal acts were all committed by someone McCain CHOSE to be with, not some distant relative Obama has nothing to do with.
[QUOTE=Member #2041]It's not like he picked her to be his running mate, and then discovered that she misused her office to cover her family's travel expenses, or to get her relative fired. It's also not like his wife was delinquent on the property taxes on a condo in La Jolla. The difference is, those inappropriate/illegal acts were all committed by someone McCain CHOSE to be with, not some distant relative Obama has nothing to do with.[/QUOTE]
This situation can't be attributed to Obama's actions while Palin's faux paus are a result of her actions.
Palin is well out of her league on the national stage...even most folks in the conservative movement admit this.
The situation in of itself isn't about Obama, it's how he reacts to it that will be the most telling. His best course of action would be, 'I believe the immigration officials are investigating it now'.
The middle class's seething discontent about the illegal immigration issue is something that the mainstream media or the pols have not wanted to touch on or acknowledge. As some might imagine I’m quite active in the local blogs, this has touched off a firestorm.
Massachusetts (Boston) is a beacon for illegals due to ‘a don’t ask don’t tell’ policy and enormously generous government funded social benefits.
Happy to say Obama said in a TV interview if she's in the country illegally the laws should be obeyed and she should be deported. I was on the fence on Obama, I was going to vote for a third party nut job but I think I'll push the chad for Barry tomorrow, not that it matters the electoral college has made my vote useless in my particular state.
Some people will spin that negatively, Obama deporting his wee old aunt.
I saw an interview with some tribal elders in a village where Obama's relatives supposedly once lived, and the villagers are all watching the election as if it is their own.
One interviewed elder was quite certain that when Obama becomes president, he would set aside some land in the US where people from Kenya could live too... or at least those from the village.
Was kinda cute.
My prediction - McCain win due to a generous sufficiency of racism in Pennsylvania and Virginia.
Obama will win Pennsylvania, you are obviously smoking crack. Philadelphia and Pittsburgh basically decide that State, and both cities are heavily democratic, Philly is 8 to 1 Obama to McCain, Pittsburgh is almost as heavy. Virginia has a large African American population that will vote heavily Obama, its also become strongly Democrat in the past couple of elections. Obama will win but an absolute landslide might not happen. Florida and NC are states that could go for McCain since Obama only leads by 2 points in those places, well within the margin of error. Actually wait, early voting numbers suggest Obama is leading in that state.
I checked RCP's polling average for 2004, Kerry was lagging by 2 points in October, Obama's overall lead has averaged 6 or more points.
The Dollar is beginning to rally after constantly plummeting in value for the past seven years. An Obama victory is one of the possible factors, if McCain wins, it will continue its plummet to peso status, higher government spending caused by the Iraq and Afghan wars plus the possibility of military action against Iran under McCain will definitely put pressure on the dollar.
Unlike 2004, the economy is the hot button issue this year, in 2004 everyone was still worried about terrorism as 9-11 was still fresh on people's minds. PA and VA are probably the least racist middle American states out there. I would believe racism would prevent Obama from winning in Texas or Alabama but not VA or PA.
I wonder who will go to State (Kerry), Defense, NSC (Dr. S. Rice), Tres, chief of staff, etc. And more importantly the deputies and asst secs (who make and execute strategy). If Pres. elect Obama selects men and women of accomplishment and judgement who are not bound by strict ideology we will be ok..but if he apoints a bunch of left wing McNamaras as opposed to men like Bob Gates god help us. his cabinet should resemble Lincoln's as opposed to W's first one.
Anyway, the american economy is in its worst shape since the the 30s. I wouldn't even want the job. Kinda like being asked to be the Fuhrer of Germany in April of '45.
If MN elects a comedian, which it is likley to do, the GOP will enter into a state of wilderness until the american electorate realizes that a divided gov is the best gov.
[QUOTE=Opebo]My prediction - McCain win due to a generous sufficiency of racism in Pennsylvania and Virginia.[/QUOTE]
Obama is putting state's in play that have not been in play for the dems since LBJ. The man's campaign machine is the best in the modern political era, by far. His campiagn is also the most funded in the history of the world.
[QUOTE=DirkDingy]I wonder who will go to State (Kerry), Defense, NSC (Dr. S. Rice), Tres, chief of staff, etc. And more importantly the deputies and asst secs (who make and execute strategy). If Pres. elect Obama selects men and women of accomplishment and judgement who are not bound by strict ideology we will be ok..but if he apoints a bunch of left wing McNamaras as opposed to men like Bob Gates god help us. his cabinet should resemble Lincoln's as opposed to W's first one.
Anyway, the american economy is in its worst shape since the the 30s. I wouldn't even want the job. Kinda like being asked to be the Fuhrer of Germany in April of '45.
If MN elects a comedian, which it is likley to do, the GOP will enter into a state of wilderness until the american electorate realizes that a divided gov is the best gov.[/QUOTE]
I think Rice will get the roll of Ambassador to the UN. Hagel has been favored for Sec of State for awhile now. Samantha Power will also be involved in this, so yes the room will be filled with Intelligent people.
Sam's hubby is Cass Sunstein a legal Prof at Harvard Law, tabbed to be a Supreme Court Nominee when the time comes.
For you wanna-be War Hawks I guess you would watch those and Sec of Defence the most.
I think this cabinet will be quite a bit more Dove'ish and less Hawk'ish, we can't afford it for one thing. I say that not in jest, I think Internationally we can't afford it. We'll need to borrow more money for these "Rebuild America" policies and can't be sinking trillions of dollars in the Middle East. Nobody in several thousand years has been able to conqure that area, who are we to think we'll be able to do it?
6 years in and we're not any closer to doing it.
In fact, I think you'll see "Peace In the Middle East 2.0", Improved relations with former CIS countries, while keeping Russia at arm's length, which means for the most part, continued diffculties in importing your wife from Russia and any of its direct allies.
As for the 151 bases not in the US, we'll close a good number of them over the next 10 years as a part of a scale down in military action. We have spent almost 30 years increasing the miltary budget. Electronic warfare and intelliegent policy is just as effective as "brute force" in this almost post "modern" era.
I believe 70% of the focus for the Federal Government will be LOCAL policy, reversing of NAFTA, along with a Green Economy, Univ Health Care and few other things.
Pollyanna'ish I know but I honestly believe because most of us have woken up this will happen or we'll keep cycling out people until our demands are met.
Every time an US president is about to get dedicated to domestic policies, like economy in Obama's case, he soon gets more and more preoccupied with foreign policy, which has always been de facto first priority, like it or not.
I wonder what Obama's first challange in that area will be. As if old well-know problems on the international scene were not enough, there are news about a deal between Russia and Libya, including nuclear technology and large Russian naval base in Libya. Will Obama maintain his dovish image, or rather get into troubles followed by massive criticism from republicans?
[i]"A cooperation agreement was signed in the area of the peaceful use of civilian nuclear, particularly in the design and construction of reactors and the supply of nuclear fuel," said Abdelrahman Chalgham, who accompanied Kadhafi.[/i]
[url]http://www.france24.com/en/20081102-russia-libya-sign-nuclear-pact[/url]
[i]Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi, starting his first
visit to post-Soviet Russia on Friday, will discuss opening a
Russian naval base in Libya to counterbalance U.S. interests in
the region[/i]
[url]http://www.france24.com/en/20081031-kadhafi-Muammar-Gaddafi-offers-host-russian-naval-base-libya[/url]
The US has and will continue to have (for the foreseeable future) the largest military in the world. No one else has even shown a remote inkling of dedicating the amount of resources it would take to challenge the US. Russia is a non factor militarily. The army is highly over rated, the navy is a joke and the air force is still flying propeller planes. China might be a more viable #2 then Russia. Either way #2 is remote at best.
One assumes based only on the facts that Obama is a Democrat and non military that he will take a soft stance on foreign policy, this is not true. He already said he wants to wind things down in Iraq (there will be a US presence there for at least 5-10 years) and ramp things up in Afghanistan to finish the job W never did, mission accomplished indeed.
Russia wants to counter US interests in the Med? America no longer needs to shield Europe from the Soviet Bear. First, the Soviet Bear no longer exists. Second, Europe (UK, FRA, GER) is more then capable ot taking care of themselves.
Leuween, forgive CruiserD, he is your typical Cambridge boy, always believing what he sees on BBC. Having a conventional military means little in the nuclear age, the US could have the best conventional military and it does but it still could not stop a Russian attack on Georgia. Georgia is not irrelevant to the US, its a key locale, an oil pipeline runs across the country. And Georgia like other Central Asian former Soviet states are key to US strategy in Asia.
Another 5 to 10 years in Iraq under Obama??!! No way. Obama will probably be the most pro Arab and pro Muslim US leader in history, recall his middle name?? Oh and his father was a Muslim. All the hardcore zionists in the States and around the world are aware of this fact, and they are definitely nervous.
Obama is no military man, its obvious he won't pursue an aggressive military policy at all. Arnie indirectly called him a girlie man. Arnie noticed like I that Obama is not exactly a bloke. You have to be kidding me. McCain is another breed altogether, he will bomb Iran into the stone age...or at least say he will. Israel is already planning to take matters into their own hands with Iran, if Obama wins today, Israel will use the remainder of the Bush term as a window of opportunity to strike Tehran. Obama is a momma's boy, he will use diplomacy above everything else.
The UK being a true part of Europe??? Now I know you are smoking some good shit, CruiserD. The poms never thought of themselves as Europeans, they still even have passport checks from the continent. The UK is almost on its way out of the EU. That is exactly what the continentals, particularly the Germans and French, want, the UK has been nothing more than a spoiler in unifying Europe, with the UK out, Paris and Berlin can shut up all the other smaller anti-EU voices in Europe, particularly the Polish, Dutch, Swedes, etc.
The EU gets most of its petroleum from Russia and the Russians have been known from time to time to blackmail the Europeans, they will probably look more into the Middle East, and I would not be surprised if a confrontation between Europe and Iran becomes a possibility down the road.
The question of who is capable of bombing whom wasn't on my mind when I speculated about Obama's first presidential moves. In absolute figures, America spends more on military than all other countries together - True. However, $1bln buys far more hardware in Russia or China and their spendings are rising considerably. Besides when Cruiser_D dismisses Russia as a "non factor militarily" he can't be aware that Russia is still the only country in the world that can annihilate the USA. So, we are back to nukes and assured mutual destruction, which by the way will never take place. Any militarily conflict between US and Russia is out of the question, and it was clearly demonstrated in Georgia.
Since Russian naval presence in Syria, and now also in Libya can't be interpreted as anything else but response to US geopolitical ambitions, Obama will have to counterpunch somehow and no matter how he does it, criticism from GOP won't be late. Further, recent Russian involvement in Venezuela won't be kindly seen by Washington, given South America's love affair with socialism. Add Cuba's plans to drill for oil and Brazilian aid package to the regime worth $1bln. What if Cuba with the Castro brothers at the helm, gets deep pockets and starts spending oil money in South and Central America same way Chavez is doing? Will Cubans invite American Big Oil to the fiesta when drilling [url=http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1853252,00.html?xid=site-cnn-partner]fewer than 100 miles off U.S. shores[/url]? Wait, what about embargo?
[i]Despite the Bush Administration's hard line on Cuba, Republicans in Congress have proposed legislation to exempt Big Oil from the embargo. That clamor is sure to rise — especially if Barack Obama, who is more open to dialogue with Havana, becomes the next President — now that Cuba's state oil company, Cubapetroleo, or Cupet, has announced a stunning new estimate of more than 20 billion bbl. bubbling off its shores. "This is not a game," Cupet's exploration manager, Rafael Tenreyro, assured reporters in Havana last week.
If true, those potential reserves could make Cuba a major petro player in the hemisphere. (The U.S. has reserves of 29 billion bbl.)[/i]
Looks countries like Russia, Venezuela, Iran, Libya, Cuba got or are getting rich from oil, and they haven't always been best allies of the US. Interesting chess game for next couple of years. Finally one can't stop wondering reading [url=http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1847976,00.html]this[/url]:
[i]Over the past week, however, it became clear just how much the "American problem" may affect Brazil's stellar economic performance, as the Sao Paulo stock index — the Bovespa — lost about 20% of its value. A visibly irked Lula barked that the U.S. disaster "is one of the most serious problems we have ever seen." His parting shot: "Our financial system is not involved in the [U.S.] subprime" mortgage mess that sparked the catastrophe. "We did our homework and the U.S., who spent 30 years telling us what to do, did not."
Such is today's surreal situation that Washington is getting lectured on capitalism by Lula, the head of Brazil's leftist Workers' Party. All over a region once considered the poster child for economic dysfunction, the refrain is the same: Why can't the gringos run an economy as well as we do?[/i]
It doesn't take a genius to realize that Obama will have tougher time in office than most of his predecessors. His domestic opponents probably aren't heels over head in a dovish, dark-skinned Commander in Chief with dubious background, and those who voted for him, most likely expect Obama to deliver in terms of jobs, income and so on. I don't envy him.
Obama's skin color doesn't really matter, and domestic opponents can now shut up. Anyway Asia is going to change the global balance of power and shift it East, since the two biggest economic stories of this century are populated by mostly brown and yellow people, that issue is moot. Most of what we know as white racism started with the age of exploration, a belief based that white European "culture" is superior, that age is over.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]Obama's skin color doesn't really matter.....[/QUOTE]
...I am still yelling that the man is just as much white (if not more) as he is black and calling him America's First Black President is a fallacy.
But anyway I send my condolences/congratulations to the man because this is one high paying job I would not want and I wish him all the best.
The US president makes 400k/year, not exactly a high paying CEO job, however the corporate jet and company housing is pretty sweet.
DW, Obama is black and he's a man, he's also the first black president elect of the US, these are indeed are facts. Is he Snoop Dogg, JayZ, Mike Tyson or Jesse Jackson, no.
[QUOTE=Cruiser D]The US president makes 400k/year, not exactly a high paying CEO job, however the corporate jet and company housing is pretty sweet.
DW, Obama is black and he's a man, he's also the first black president elect of the US, these are indeed are facts. Is he Snoop Dogg, JayZ, Mike Tyson or Jesse Jackson, no.[/QUOTE]
I guess the one drop rule still applies..wow.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule[/url]
Obama earned 4.5 million last year in royalties from his books Dreams of My Father and The Audacity of Hope. His salary is irrelevant. Even William Jefferson Clinton's net worth skyrocketed after 8 years as President. The same will happen for Obama. If he was not married, women would be lining up for him.
I think the race card is now moot in America, Obama won by a clear majority, and African Americans have to look to Obama as their example.
Obama is and will be more dovish with regards to foreign policy, but that makes sense when we are living in a world where others are rising. America is not really falling, it depends on your frame of reference, but is just entering an era where it is not the sole king of the hill.
Joe Liberman's turncoat ass will be marginalized now.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]Obama earned 4.5 million last year in royalties from his books Dreams of My Father and The Audacity of Hope. His salary is irrelevant. Even William Jefferson Clinton's net worth skyrocketed after 8 years as President. The same will happen for Obama. If he was not married, women would be lining up for him.
I think the race card is now moot in America, Obama won by a clear majority, and African Americans have to look to Obama as their example.
Obama is and will be more dovish with regards to foreign policy, but that makes sense when we are living in a world where others are rising. America is not really falling, it depends on your frame of reference, but is just entering an era where it is not the sole king of the hill.[/QUOTE]
women line up for a fuckin county commissioner...the only bigger aphrodisiac (sans perhaps fame) than money for a woman is power. an unmarried congressman in dc can pull most any woman he wants...grade a star power.
since i never broke through in hollywood i'm gonna try dc or the statehouse.
joe liberman was a likudnik, thats why he rallied against obama. anyway the likud policies of israel have left that country in a disastrous state of affairs. obama is not anti-israel but he is certainly not going to identify with the extreme right wing of that nation's leadership. we have to live in a new 21st century planet where we have to learn to play nice with one another, and confrontational politics must end. i have been around the world and lived in the most multicultural city on earth to realize just how similar people everywhere are on this rock.
i know any small time politician could get ass but a guy like obama would have a line several miles long. tiger woods had a similar line when he broke the color barrier in golf, think of this as woods to the 100th power. anyway obama is a married man, and i think his wife has a great deal to do with his success.
mccain was practically cheering for obama. obama's victory speech was very restrained. the world in peril? its always been like that, for some people around the world, people are looking forward to the coming years, christmas was in beijing early this year. the first half of the 20th century was horrific, the 21st will not be a cake walk but i don't see the dark days of the beginning the last century happening either.
dreams of my father was an interesting read, particularly since he really did not spend much time with him. if anything it seems like his mother and his grandparents had the most influence on his upbringing.
obama is not lincoln, fdr, or jfk, he is obama, his own man.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]Dreams of My Father was an interesting read, particularly since he really did not spend much time with him. If anything it seems like his mother and his grandparents had the most influence on his upbringing.[/QUOTE]
Still yelling... to the world blow up.
Whether Obama remains dove is still to be seen. I think he sooner or later has to demonstrate strength in order to not be dismissed as weak, or he may end like Jimmy Carter. There is a lot of bitterness, even hate, among McCain supporters today and it certainly will be projected on Obama in near future. After listening to comments from NY GOPs, I believe images of black Obama supporters cheering and dancing in front of TV cameras may add fuel to the fire. One couldn't ignore moments when TV cameras panned over crowds of supporters and while Obama's was a mix of mainly Blacks, McCain's had no mix at all. Once again results of US elections indicate evident polarization of American society.
Random European press review, and not so subtle headlines.
De Telegraaf (Dutch) - [i]"Jong an zwart stemt Obama"[/i] i.e. "Young and Blacks vote Obama"
Der Spiegel (German) - [i]"Obama erweckt das neue Amerika"[/i] i.e "Obama wakes up the new America"
Frankfurter Allgemeine (German) - [i]"Schwarze für Obama, Weiße für McCain"[/i] i.e "Blacks [in favour of] Obama, Whites [in favour of] McCain"
Dagens Nyheter (Swedish) - [i]"Obamas farmor lycklig"[/i] i.e. "Obama's grandmother happy"
As long as he focuses on Afghanistan and getting OBL he will be set. Obama will not antagonize China or Russia, that would be plain stupid, even W would not even think about doing that. Bush took his eye off the ball, actually he took the nation's eye off the ball, made a bunch of nonsense lies, now thousands of young Americans are dead, thousands of ordinary Iraqis are dead, the world is more dangerous now than eight years ago, a nuclear Iran is a distinct possibility, the global economy is on ever shakier ground. Obama is going to have to deal with a lot of non military and war issues that could easily turn into those if left ignored.
The NY GOPs are out on their asses.
Bupkus about all black people at the Obama rallies. For your info I was there in NYC. Even was surrounded by a bunch of Euro Obama groupies near Rockefeller. Chicago and NYC had a big mix of people, McCain was predominantly white, no surprise, the Republicans have not done a good job of getting minorities. Younger white voters have been drawn to Obama big time.
Its different if you look at older white voters. As the older folks pass on, things in America will change.
Europeans seemed to overwhelmingly like Obama, most people outside the US seem pro Obama. I have had lots of experiences with young Europeans, they are a very liberal bunch.
Yes, you are right, Obama is very popular here and gets lots of sympathy. Needless to say, for Europeans, US elections are series of showbiz events, as few bother to even study political program of each candidate. These elections were perceived as struggle between Good and Evil.
This kind of thinking makes me laugh, since there is no politician, elected by euphoric masses, who won't let them down, justified or not. We have seen it when Blair launched his "New Labour" party, we have seen it when Sarkozy was hugely popular, right after he succeeded Chirac. On the other hand, no politician will ever be straightforward, and tell what really is coming ahead. More work, less jobs and sharper competition. Politics is about giving hope, illusion of a good life. Well, a lot has changed during the 90's, and we got company. Hence, until someone explains why current situation, where Chinese workers making 10x-20x fold less than their Western colleagues, manufacturing comparable products, will continue as if nothing has happened, I may consider to believe in public politics.
Obama won't change reality, but he'll channel it to his voters far better than McCain ever would.
[QUOTE=Leeuwen]Whether Obama remains dove is still to be seen. I think he sooner or later has to demonstrate strength in order to not be dismissed as weak, or he may end like Jimmy Carter. There is a lot of bitterness, even hate, among McCain supporters today and it certainly will be projected on Obama in near future. After listening to comments from NY GOPs, I believe images of black Obama supporters cheering and dancing in front of TV cameras may add fuel to the fire. One couldn't ignore moments when TV cameras panned over crowds of supporters and while Obama's was a mix of mainly Blacks, McCain's had no mix at all. Once again results of US elections indicate evident polarization of American society.
Random European press review, and not so subtle headlines.
De Telegraaf (Dutch) - [i]"Jong an zwart stemt Obama"[/i] i.e. "Young and Blacks vote Obama"
Der Spiegel (German) - [i]"Obama erweckt das neue Amerika"[/i] i.e "Obama wakes up the new America"
Frankfurter Allgemeine (German) - [i]"Schwarze für Obama, Weiße für McCain"[/i] i.e "Blacks [in favour of] Obama, Whites [in favour of] McCain"
Dagens Nyheter (Swedish) - [i]"Obamas farmor lycklig"[/i] i.e. "Obama's grandmother happy"[/QUOTE]
Obma got a larger portion of the white vote than any democractic candidate in the last 30+ years...more than kerry, gore, carter, etc.
Black people make up about 12.3% of the American population and most of them are in large urban areas....in places like wisconsin, colorado, and iowa there are virtually no blacks...obama won them all...read about the electoral college.
i agree that there was a disporportionate number of blacks on tv celebrating...they should have showed some folks in new hampshire or vermont partying. i dont like to see blacks dancing and such, but, bearing in mind america's relatively recent du jour and de factor unfair treatment of minorities, I can see how they would be elated and befallen with pride at our nation's progress and adherence to its founding principles.
if you are smart, driven, and a bit lucky, all things are possible in this great land.
america is not a 3rd world bannana republic...we do not resort to violence or maintain politically paralyzing positions if our candiate looses...we just move on and wait for the next electoral cycle.
those kraut newspapers should have read: whites, blacks, latinos, asians, jews, the educated, the wealthy, the young, catholics, gays, the middle aged, all break for obama.
[QUOTE=DirkDingy]Obma got a larger portion of the white vote than any democractic candidate in the last 30+ years...more than kerry, gore, carter, etc.
Black people make up about 12.3% of the American population and most of them are in large urban areas....in places like wisconsin, colorado, and iowa there are virtually no blacks...obama won them all...read about the electoral college.
i agree that there was a disporportionate number of blacks on tv celebrating...they should have showed some folks in new hampshire or vermont partying. i dont like to see blacks dancing and such, but, bearing in mind america's relatively recent du jour and de factor unfair treatment of minorities, I can see how they would be elated and befallen with pride at our nation's progress and adherence to its founding principles.
if you are smart, driven, and a bit lucky, all things are possible in this great land.
america is not a 3rd world bannana republic...we do not resort to violence or maintain politically paralyzing positions if our candiate looses...we just move on and wait for the next electoral cycle.
those kraut newspapers should have read: whites, blacks, latinos, asians, jews, the educated, the wealthy, the young, catholics, gays, the middle aged, all break for obama.[/QUOTE]
Well it looked more than this nationally -
96% Black, 66% Latino, 60% White all voted for Obama
As for blacks dancing in the streets and crying, that's my general problem with you DD, so what. Their kids are copying our moves they see on Soul Train at the local nightclub and people think its cool. Listen to our music, wear their hats backwards, try and speak the slang and generally don't have a problem with Black people, as much as they PARENTS DO.
And they showed many WHITE people and Latinos running around crying and smiling.
Shoot the Messenger the "Liberal Media" for showing you imagines that make you queezy, don't shoot Black folk for being themselves.
While race has turned the page, its not over by a long shot and you'll have the "media" lapse into things like this and you'll have to slap their hands. What I really enjoyed is the fact that finally "ASKED" Black people how WE felt and What we thought this mean in our countries History.
We are Americans too BTW, geeuz and thanks for finally asking
[url]http://www.dailykos.com/[/url]
I find this thread pretty funny. I mean, I can understand how politics and mongering can go together, but most topics discussed here seem to have nothing to to with the stated purpose of this website. Nevertheless, there were a couple of issues brought up from this election that have a lot to do with international mongering.
For those of us that live and work overseas generating income, my prediction right here: President Obama, with Congress, will remove the $85,000 tax exemption on our overseas incomes. Yes, for all of you that voted for change, that's all that will be left in our pockets. The only question now is how we can hide our overseas income.
Another political topic relavent to this site; Proposition K, a ballot initiative in San Francisco, which would have decriminalized prostitution in the city limits, lost by over fifteen percentage points. This in "progressive" San Francisco!
You may now go back to talking about skin color and Joe Lieberman. Sorry for interrupting.
[QUOTE=Ezinho]I find this thread pretty funny. I mean, I can understand how politics and mongering can go together, but most topics discussed here seem to have nothing to to with the stated purpose of this website. Nevertheless, there were a couple of issues brought up from this election that have a lot to do with international mongering.
For those of us that live and work overseas generating income, my prediction right here: President Obama, with Congress, will remove the $85,000 tax exemption on our overseas incomes. Yes, for all of you that voted for change, that's all that will be left in our pockets. The only question now is how we can hide our overseas income.
Another political topic relavent to this site; Proposition K, a ballot initiative in San Francisco, California, which would have decriminalized prostitution in the city limits, lost by over fifteen percentage points. This in "progressive" San Francisco!
You may now go back to talking about skin color and Joe Lieberman. Sorry for interrupting.[/QUOTE]
I work and live overseas dude that is scary please don’t speak those words anymore. They already are forcing overseas workers to pay social security which up until two months ago we did not have to. 7% of your gross income. It stings trust me.
Regardless Obama has a very hard job ahead of him but he will do fine. Honestly though you do not even have to live in America these days to be super successful since the economy is becoming more global. Read up about the biggest internet mogul no one ever heard of, he is a Canadian guy, a former doctor, who runs a $300 million a year business, a guy by the name of Mark Ham. Obama is going to be great for the increasingly global and competitive world we are going to be living in this new century. That whole Bush doctrine to create a second American century, adios, hola Global Boy Obama.
I was looking at another article about how 2030 would be like, people taking vacations in space hotels, maybe the 21st Century just might look like those sci-fi movies I used to watch when I was younger.
So what if African Americans were cheering and crying tears of joy, its great to see that miracles can happen on this rock of ours.
Do even Americans who ran off to Canada and don't even visit the US pay those taxes? I doubt it.
Legalizing prostitution in the US??? Heheheehe. No way.
[QUOTE=Ezinho]I find this thread pretty funny. I mean, I can understand how politics and mongering can go together, but most topics discussed here seem to have nothing to to with the stated purpose of this website. Nevertheless, there were a couple of issues brought up from this election that have a lot to do with international mongering.
For those of us that live and work overseas generating income, my prediction right here: President Obama, with Congress, will remove the $85,000 tax exemption on our overseas incomes. Yes, for all of you that voted for change, that's all that will be left in our pockets. The only question now is how we can hide our overseas income.
Another political topic relavent to this site; Proposition K, a ballot initiative in San Francisco, which would have decriminalized prostitution in the city limits, lost by over fifteen percentage points. This in "progressive" San Francisco!
You may now go back to talking about skin color and Joe Lieberman. Sorry for interrupting.[/QUOTE]
I saw those measures and I don't think either of them passed, that's WOMEN and the Religious Reich pushing back against "Progressive Policy"
I don't care about Joe Lieberman and people like DD have been taught to self-hate, theres alot of work that still has to be done and you'll agree with me I'm sure.
We talk about hoes, I talk about marriage there's room for all Ez, take a chill pill.
"break" in the context of electoral politics means that 51% or more of the group voted in a certain direction. therefore my comments are correct and deployed in a manner which buttresses my argument. wink wink.
frequent, or rather inopportune, dancing signals to some excessive emotiveness and an underdeveloped verbal aptitude...not really to me, but to too many people. i took a class on southern political history and part of the supremiscist ideology was, to paraphrase: "look at those darkies dancing, singin, shuckin', and jivin because they are too simple to express their thoughts in other ways."
and, what the fuck does it mean to let black people be black people? Apparently now it means to go excel academically, go to an ivy league college, go to an ivy league law school and become potus.
thank god that obama is defining blackness as something other dunking a basketball or rapping about bitches, hoez, and the dope game.
obama's election should increase my capacity to get fsu slavic pussy
DJ, I don't see how your percentage math adds up. Obama won 53% of the popular vote and McCain 46%. On an unrelated note it's time to do anyway with the electoral college.
Ezinho, this thread was established to keep political talk out of the sex forums. You actually basing the elimination of the tax exempt status on anything other then Obama is a muslim socialist with a fake birth certificate?
Daddy, why shouldn't expats be paying SS? I know a lot of sexpats in the FSU living there full time on their American SS.
Dirk, Obama was an outside shooter not a dunker.
Too funny [url]http://www.theonion.com/content/news/nation_finally_shitty_enough_to[/url]
[url]http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/black_man_given_nations[/url]
The USA Shitty?? The Onion is so cynical. Bush is shit, the TRAILER PARK TRASH that voted him into office twice was exposed as hypocritical shit, thats why Obama broke the racial barrier, if those failed policies of Bush were to continue as they would under McCain-Palin then you could describe America that way. Still there are far more people trying to get into America than the other way around. Even the trash known as Fox News is shutting up as of late and changing its tone.
[QUOTE=Cruiser D]
DW, Obama is black and he's a man, he's also the first black president elect of the US, these are indeed are facts. Is he Snoop Dogg, JayZ, Mike Tyson or Jesse Jackson, no.[/QUOTE]
Jay didn’t have a white mother or a white family. He grew up [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140][CodeWord140][/url] poor in the projects with a single Black mother and all Black friends. Now he is worth $500 FUCKING MILLION DOLLARS though he didn’t make it to presidency those “ins” gotta count for something.
Even bigger than P Diddy and Russell Simmons??
DW, entertainers are just that. What exactly doesn't JayZ stand for? Making $? Big deal. The real people who make a difference are those who leave the world a better place from when they came in. It's a hard knock life.
[QUOTE=Cruiser D]DW, entertainers are just that. What exactly doesn't JayZ stand for? Making $? Big deal. The real people who make a difference are those who leave the world a better place from when they came in. It's a hard knock life.[/QUOTE]
Despite not being able to carry a tune Jay Z has made millions from his music but he is much more than just an entertainer. He is a humanitarian who has made a difference with his scholarship fund and work in Africa; he did an interview with 60 minutes a while ago that was real telling about who he is, a man of action rather than words.
[url]http://scartersf.org/#[/url]
[url]http://www.femalefirst.co.uk/entertainment/JayZ-57865.html[/url]
[url]http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1458927/20021127/jay_z.jhtml[/url]
"Former Gov. Eliot Spitzer will not be charged with any crime for patronizing a high-priced prostitution ring, federal prosecutors announced on Thursday."
[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/07/nyregion/07spitzer.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin[/url]
[QUOTE=DirkDingy]"break" in the context of electoral politics means that 51% or more of the group voted in a certain direction. therefore my comments are correct and deployed in a manner which buttresses my argument. wink wink.
frequent, or rather inopportune, dancing signals to some excessive emotiveness and an underdeveloped verbal aptitude...not really to me, but to too many people. i took a class on southern political history and part of the supremiscist ideology was, to paraphrase: "look at those darkies dancing, singin, shuckin', and jivin because they are too simple to express their thoughts in other ways."
and, what the fuck does it mean to let black people be black people? Apparently now it means to go excel academically, go to an ivy league college, go to an ivy league law school and become potus.
thank god that obama is defining blackness as something other dunking a basketball or rapping about bitches, hoez, and the dope game.
obama's election should increase my capacity to get fsu slavic pussy[/QUOTE]
I agree with proper "acting", doing the "jig" isn't always appropriate.
But his election does mean more than Watermelon, Fried Chicken, Collar Greens, making new slang words and only excelling in sports... Including F1 I might add ;)
I'm just saying in Celebration however this isn't the time to be "serious"
There plenty of time and days to get serious because much work is needed on all sides.
[QUOTE=Jelly Donut]"Former Gov. Eliot Spitzer will not be charged with any crime for patronizing a high-priced prostitution ring, federal prosecutors announced on Thursday."
[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/07/nyregion/07spitzer.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin[/url][/QUOTE]
I saw that yesterday, he gave up his office too soon.. Unlike Stevens who is guilty as charged and might still win his seat.... Can't knock the hustle...
Run, an article of JayZ humanitarian efforts from 2002, eh? I don't think Mother Theresa or Bill Gates for the matter will be too worried about the competition. Mr Z has taken a lot and hasn't given back all that much. Not that he has to, it just doesn't make him a humanitarian .
I remember reading about the Steven's case. Convicted felons can't be put on a ballot in Alaska. He got on it before he got convicted. Even if he does win it will be his last race. He might spend most of his term in jail. He might get expelled from the Senate. I'm guessing all three will happen. He'll be the first convicted felon re elected to the Senate. Nice state that Alaska, too bad Palin didn't make the cut. She would have been a fine VP. McCain would have been better off running with RR's corpse.
Part of the implied deal for Spitzer was that he had to resign. john's rarely get charged (or exposed) in cases like this. However Spitzer's holier then tho attitude and all the toes he stepped on his way up put a big target on his back.
[QUOTE=DJ FourMoney]I saw that yesterday, he gave up his office too soon.. Unlike Stevens who is guilty as charged and might still win his seat.... Can't knock the hustle...[/QUOTE]
Spitzer was responsible for bring at least one significant prostitution case against international sex tourists. Not a lot of tears lost here.
The reason the government did not prosecute him in this case is that this is the long-standing policy of the DoJ. Effectively, Spitzer broke whatever laws apply to prostitution in the District of Columbia and that is a matter for the local police there. Read the pdf hanging off that article.
I don't think anyone in the mainstream is suggesting the FBI or DoJ were not doing there job here or were being selective or political. My impression is an even hand. Stevens. Spitzer. They both broke laws and broke the public trust. Can't really gloss it over.
Don't know much about Jay Z. I think he knifed some guy and then wrote "Jigga that Nigga" about it? Most everyday people are way better than that. I don't expect he's going to pull down a Presidential Medal of Freedom anytime soon.
[QUOTE=Cruiser D]Run, an article of JayZ humanitarian efforts from 2002, eh? I don't think Mother Theresa or Bill Gates for the matter will be too worried about the competition. Mr Z has taken a lot and hasn't given back all that much. Not that he has to, it just doesn't make him a humanitarian .
[/QUOTE]
Cruiser, the date of 2002 shows he has been engaged in this type of work for some time now. Try to be objective, you neglected to acknowledge his very valuable scholarship foundation which has helped many who are less fortunate than him and him being honored by the UN for his work in Africa. You asked what he stood for which was what I replied to. He is a humanitarian to those he has helped and he is also much more than some one who only makes $ as you claimed he was.
Getting back to politics, how exactly is Obama going to restore America's "status in the world". This is something I am seriously wondering about. How is he going to do it? As in restoring the unipolar moment that existed since the Soviet Union collapsed? I seriously doubt it, in many ways American dominance in many areas will be contested and challenged, even the World Bank predicts China will have a larger economy than the US in real exchange rate terms not PPP by the year 2020. Small third world countries like North Korea are now nuclear capable and more will follow, such as Iran. Its unlikely that Obama is going to lead the world by pointing a gun at the planet, he will have to lead by example, and setting one thats better than his predecessor.
[quote=cbgbconnisur]getting back to politics, how exactly is obama going to restore america's "status in the world". this is something i am seriously wondering about. how is he going to do it? as in restoring the unipolar moment that existed since the soviet union collapsed? i seriously doubt it, in many ways american dominance in many areas will be contested and challenged, even the world bank predicts china will have a larger economy than the us in real exchange rate terms not ppp by the year 2020. small third world countries like north korea are now nuclear capable and more will follow, such as iran. its unlikely that obama is going to lead the world by pointing a gun at the planet, he will have to lead by example, and setting one that's better than his predecessor.[/quote]
100% and we'll start by pulling out of iraq and surprise afghanistan! i'm sure you watched martin walker on dateline (the aussie version, not that sensationalized version in the us) that when obama goes to nato/un for more troop support for the "good" war, the eu will say "no way jose" and he'll have to "rethink" america's position which would go into "humanitarian" mode, where will start to rebuild afghanistan via the army corps of engineers.
wishful thinking?
nope, if he wants to keep his promises, he has to cut funding someplace and while mccain wanted to cut funding everywhere but on the wars, why not start with the wars since they are largely unpopular the world over, not just in the us. it would automatically put a happy face on the stars and stripes.
my best friend from high school works construction and lements the credit freeze which has state's cutting back budgets and considering layoffs since all states have to have balanced budgets by law (at least california does). he think the economy will get worst before it gets better and i agree, the bottom hasn't dropped from housing and unless this next stimulus package directly addresses foreclosures and public works projects it will last alot longer.
but the stimulus will fly pass the house and we'll see how adding 5 more senate seats effects its speed in getting out for obama to sign it. i don't see much hold up from the republicans that are left and risk further lost of seats in the mid-terms in 2010.
this action on the ground can not be lost just because he's been elected, we must continue to bug congress. when we didn't want the original bailout, we called (in fact) hammered on congress and it fell. but then cnbc and others kept telling people that it would be good and help the frozen credit issues, which hasn't largely happen...
then when the revision came down, it was fit (not really) to past and now we know it didn't have enough restrictions on it, but at least only 150 billion got released and we've largely seen where that has gone -
[url]http://www.alternet.org/workplace/106195/wall_street_fat_cats_are_trying_to_pocket_billions_in_bailout_cash/[/url]
even though wall st. invested heavily into obama, i think some extra restrictions are coming down.... no they didn't want it but hey they asked for the axe to come down.
it will be interesting to see what happens and if my opinions turn out correct.
A large number of voters who were and are anti war voted for Obama. If he does not make good on that promise he will probably lose those voters or just discourage them. I do think US foreign policy will change radically under Obama, especially with regards to military matters.
The power vacuum in Iraq has been filled and there is seemingly now a dominant faction. The US won't be leaving Iraq for a long time, unless the situation goes Vietnam. There will be a draw down of combat forces in Iraq and an increase in Afghanistan. It took 4 years and another president but it looks like the real war on terror, Afghanistan will finally be addressed.
I can assure you that not every state is forced to have a balanced budget by law. And how can the CA budget be balanced if the credit crunch and the inability to borrow is forcing them toward bankruptcy. Or is this some kind of special government economics where balancing your budget doesn’t mean paying your bills with the money you make but the money you borrow.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]A large number of voters who were and are anti war voted for Obama. If he does not make good on that promise he will probably lose those voters or just discourage them. I do think US foreign policy will change radically under Obama, especially with regards to military matters.[/QUOTE]As long as he doesn't try to rip the balls off the military like Carter did, OK.
Main issues for me aren't even the wars, it's the self-serving corruption involved in weapons appropriation... where the decision to buy which weapons and equipment is more about jobs, egos and profit than providing our soldiers with the best equipment to get the job done.
clinton did not exactly support the military either, back in those days people joked that you had a better chance of being anal raped than dying in battle unlike today where the military is taken very seriously. i seriously doubt the us will continue to have large military presence overseas, the military is already cutting staff in europe, a few years ago rhein main was shut for good, and smaller forces will be deployed overseas. i recall the military wanted to place soldiers in georgia, that did not happen. pointing a gun at other countries and expecting them to dance will not work anymore, especially since those other countries will have guns too, actually nukes. countries like india, pakistan, and nk have them, just about any country can. i bet brazil will go nuclear too, it almost did in the past. the mad principle mainly applies among relations between china, russia, and the us but it will gradually apply to more countries.
the military will be less people based and more automated in the coming decades, sounds like something out of a terminator movie, but self aware computer systems and robots will actually be reality in about 15 years.
certain key allies will continue to shift away from america, japan will be the most notable one, they are pretty much in china's pocket. in fact, japanese companies are aggressively trying to penetrate the growing chinese market which will actually be larger than the us in 12 years or so.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]A large number of voters who were and are anti war voted for Obama. If he does not make good on that promise he will probably lose those voters or just discourage them. I do think US foreign policy will change radically under Obama, especially with regards to military matters.[/QUOTE]
Well, we can certainly hope so.
It was the policies (the draft) and failures of Vietnam, which caused the decline of the US military. Which still at that point were a more effective force then the Soviets on their best day (a very rare day indeed). Carter is best known for the abortive Iranian rescue mission (a friend of mine was actually there). Instead of sending in a small commando group he should have sent in the Marine Corps and the 5th Fleet. The hostages would have been killed but it would have sent a strong message. But then again who knows, maybe Jimmy the humanitarian had it right.
Obama is all for pressing the war in Afghanistan while drawing down Iraq.
The US military and government buying foreign helicopters, planes and for that matter anything else is just out and out wrong.
[QUOTE=Doctor_Skank]As long as he doesn't try to rip the balls off the military like Carter did, OK.
Main issues for me aren't even the wars, it's the self-serving corruption involved in weapons appropriation... where the decision to buy which weapons and equipment is more about jobs, egos and profit than providing our soldiers with the best equipment to get the job done.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Cruiser D]It was the policies (the draft) and failures of Vietnam, which caused the decline of the US military. Which still at that point were a more effective force then the Soviets on their best day (a very rare day indeed). Carter is best known for the abortive Iranian rescue mission (a friend of mine was actually there). Instead of sending in a small commando group he should have sent in the Marine Corps and the 5th Fleet. The hostages would have been killed but it would have sent a strong message. But then again who knows, maybe Jimmy the humanitarian had it right.
Obama is all for pressing the war in Afghanistan while drawing down Iraq.
The US military and government buying foreign helicopters, planes and for that matter anything else is just out and out wrong.[/QUOTE]
Take what you want from this but the Pentagon says "You need to cut Military Spending"
I also said (you must have glossed over it) that Afghanistan has gotten worst and even with troop draw down in Iraq, you start sending them back into battle, your going to get a large "Hell No We Won't Go" and to prevent that from reaching the media, he'll instead go to the UN and ask for help.
The EU will say, we like you Obama, but NO.
Who else is going to step forward with the equipment, technology and troops to continue the War in Afghanistan? Nobody and Russia even wouldn't be interested, they tried that already.
The French won't do it, the Germans already want out of Iraq and growing impatience will prevent them from committing to it, so basically its dead in the water.
This is hope, pie in the sky, dreams (and all that other BS) that we would really rethink policies like this, but there's no boogieman out there anymore per say and we can find Osama just fine with the CIA, NSA and other world intelligent agencies. In fact umm I'm pretty sure we already know where he is...
We don't need wars to fight terrorism, duh after all the Brits didn't send planes to bomb Ireland....
[QUOTE=DJ FourMoney] Who else is going to step forward with the equipment, technology and troops to continue the War in Afghanistan? Nobody and Russia even wouldn't be interested, they tried that already.
[/QUOTE]Nobody else on the planet has the logistical capability to fight an overseas war. Fact. Without US airlift capabilities, the EU can only transport and sustain a battalion or two. Russia can airlift, but can't keep logistics up for more than a couple weeks. China has zero power projection beyond it's borders and is 2 decades away from being a world military power.
Besides, I don't think anyone besides the US really thinks it is worth the effort. No fault of foreign troops though, UK, Canada, Aussies, Danes, Norwegians, French, Dutch all fulfilling combat roles..... well.[QUOTE=DJ FourMoney]the Germans already want out of Iraq[/QUOTE]I think you meant A-stan, the Germans aren't in Iraq.[QUOTE=DJ FourMoney] We don't need wars to fight terrorism, duh after all the Brits didn't send planes to bomb Ireland....[/QUOTE]I understand your point, but that is a poor comparison.
I actually did the ROTC thing in college and had to do my obligatory period of service afterwards in the Navy, this was during the 1990s, the military was in horrific shape during the Clinton era. The one thing I will concede to Bush is that
he has actually supported the military better than his predecessor. I actually thought that time was one of the most interesting times in my life and initially exposed me to the world outside of America, that's how I initially got to see Australia.
McCain by far has superior military credentials to Obama, whatever Powell said was purely political. McCain was a career military man. Still I don't think this is a good time in history to be starting more wars.
Have you actually talked to anyone who serves in the US active military? Their professionalism and high morale always amazes me. Most of them realized when they signed up it wouldn't always be a Stateside or Western Europe posting. One doesn't sign up to be a trash truck driver and then gets amazed he has to drive trash around. It's the Reserves and the NG that got the real raw deal.
Bin Laden and his organization are a world problem - the bombings in W Europe and SE Asia. Afghanistan is a more true coalition operation and I don’t think support for it will be wavering anytime soon. Iraq was W's own personal deal, him fronting for the Saudi’s and big Oil. The only way we got anyone to support us in Iraq is by W squandering our good will capital in W Europe and bribing E Europe.
If the British had sent planes to bomb Ireland the US and the UN would have been there within a few days, probably not a good idea. I don't think there were any planes involved in the Easter Rebellion but there was plenty of artillery and a naval gunboat.
[QUOTE=DJ FourMoney] I also said (you must have glossed over it) that Afghanistan has gotten worst and even with troop draw down in Iraq, you start sending them back into battle, your going to get a large "Hell No We Won't Go" and to prevent that from reaching the media, he'll instead go to the UN and ask for help.
The EU will say, we like you Obama, but NO. [/QUOTE]
Just a general btw to all of you that have been following my political and economic postings in general. The line forms to the right for all the naysayers who said oil would never go under $50/barrel to kiss my ring. Anyone want to try for $30? Ding dong, the petro president will be no more in a couple of long months. Anyone willing to bet that 700+ billion will be long gone by then and the economy will be in just as bad shape if not worse when the corporate welfare hand outs started?
[QUOTE=Cruiser D]Anyone want to try for $30?[/QUOTE]
The growth rates of China and India, while they have slowed down, they are both moving along at a brisk pace. The Chinese economy is projected to grow at 8.5% next year; India at 6.3%. Together that's half the global population, right? China and India are the two 800-lbs gorillas in the room of oil consumption. This could keep oil prices from returning to the range they ran in during the last US recession.
[QUOTE=Doctor_Skank]Nobody else on the planet has the logistical capability to fight an overseas war. Fact.[/QUOTE]
The United Kingdom has the military means to fight some specific overseas wars, say, recapturing the Islas Malvinas. Likewise, the French maintain a respectable amphibious force. I strongly suspect they are going to put up a fight after I sieze Tahiti.
JD, being difficult.
I don't mind waiting a few months to gloat. USA, Western Europe, Eastern Europe and then China and India, look for the Chinese market to flatline next. Domino's. The US sets the market, the rest can only follow. China's projected growth rate has already been havled by what you stated. I think it's going to be zero or on the other side of zero. What we have going on is a global economic game of musical chairs, and we still have a few more rounds to play.
The British came fairly close to being severally bloodied in the Falkland Islands. Could the British or French deploy and support a force the same size or larger then a division? Doubtful. The US military bases in Iraq have Starbucks, Pizza Huts, Subways, Burger Kings and Baskin Robins. I doubt the Tommies were living like that in Basra. The US stopped using local sourced foodstuff in Iraq about two years ago due to quality issues. Everything now is being flown in from the US. What other nation in the world has the resources to do something as insane as that? The Russian Army just started issuing socks as standard kit last year.
[QUOTE=Jelly Donut]The growth rates of China and India, while they have slowed down, they are both moving along at a brisk pace. The Chinese economy is projected to grow at 8.5% next year; India at 6.3%. Together that's half the global population, right? China and India are the two 800-lbs gorillas in the room of oil consumption. This could keep oil prices from returning to the range they ran in during the last US recession.
The United Kingdom has the military means to fight some specific overseas wars, say, recapturing the Islas Malvinas. Likewise, the French maintain a respectable amphibious force. I strongly suspect they are going to put up a fight after I sieze Tahiti.
JD, being difficult.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Cruiser D]I don't mind waiting a few months to gloat. USA, Western Europe, Eastern Europe and then China and India, look for the Chinese market to flatline next. Domino's. The US sets the market, the rest can only follow. China's projected growth rate has already been havled by what you stated. I think it's going to be zero or on the other side of zero. What we have going on is a global econmic game of musical chairs, and we still have a few more rounds to play.
[/QUOTE]A slowing US economy affects China first among the "new global players". They'll take a hit, their own economic boom slowing anyway after the construction boom slowed post-Olympics. Need some office space in Guangdong? They're giving it away right now. Undercapacity.
Russian economic minister Kudrin:
"Growth planned at $95 oil"
"Budget can be kept at $60 oil"
11/08 "We plan on $50 oil in 2009 and crisis to hit first 6 months of 2009"
I'll give the Russians one thing, they're government is clever, young and forward-thinking, not to mention pragmatic. They might just have to put back those plans for aircraft carriers, moon bases and fleets of PAK-FA fighters for now.
Still, both the Chinese and Russian budgets are in SURPLUS. Can the US say that? Main Russian problem is getting credit for their projects now. It's gotten expensive.[QUOTE=Jelly Donut]The United Kingdom has the military means to fight some specific overseas wars, say, recapturing the Islas Malvinas. Likewise, the French maintain a respectable amphibious force. I strongly suspect they are going to put up a fight after I sieze Tahiti.
[/QUOTE]Personally I am a big fan of the UK military, their soldiers are among the world's best. But they do lack logistical capabilities, air strength, airlifting capabilties etc.
Even the FALKLANDS would be a challenge for them now. The Falklands. Could they take on Pakistan or even Yemen? By all respect for the Royal Marines, the Parachute Regiment and all that... I doubt it.
The British do indeed field a well trained, highly disciplined soldier with a lot of tradition behind him. Call me a nationalist but I'll stay with the common US soldier. No other country has the night fighting capabilities of the US soldier or the overwhelming support of highly sophisticated combined arms. Then of course there is the logistics and the digital command and control structure.
We've all be through the Soviet PR machine during the Cold War and those of us who have been over there can only scratch our heads and say what were they talking about. How much of those military plans are propaganda, I'm guessing about 90%. Moon base? I'm sure NASA has several back up plans for when the shuttle fleet is retired and it's up to the Russians to supply the ISS and they fail or can't do it to US standards. Look for oil to keep going down down down as the US runs down the path of being fossil fuel free.
It's easy for the Russian government to be pragmatic, they are insulated from the public. None of those guys are thinking wow, 'we' are screwed. They are thinking hmm, too bad the average Russian citizen is screwed. At least in the US when a government official screws up he finds himself voted (or fired) out of office and a social pariah.
[QUOTE=Cruiser D]I don't mind waiting a few months to gloat.[/QUOTE]
You might be right, but I think the odds are long on 30 dollar oil. It's best in these cases to take a short position on oil, that way you can bank money on your insight. Gloating is great, but money - well, it speaks for itself. Good luck.
[QUOTE]
The US military bases in Iraq have Starbucks, Pizza Huts, Subways, Burger Kings and Baskin Robins.[/QUOTE]
Indeed. It's amazing Alexander the Great got anywhere in his endeavors across Iraq and Afganistan without access to any significant sources of caffine, fat or sugar.
I find it very surreal that somebody could refer to the US food supply in ANY sort of a positive light. One of the reasons I moved OUT of the US was the shit fucking food.
[QUOTE=Bango Cheito]I find it very surreal that somebody could refer to the US food supply in ANY sort of a positive light. One of the reasons I moved OUT of the US was the shit fucking food.[/QUOTE]
Well food has to travel great distances, nobody's fault the people that kept buying up farmland to put suburbs up. Its happening in Central California now, they say by 2020 or slightly later all the rich Central California farmland will be covered in sub-divisions.
I hope it doesn't happen or that will be the next crisis in America, were do we grow the food!
Food is fine in America man, go to a Farmer's Market, Trader Joe's or Whole Foods Markets you'll be just fine....
I still eat "junk" gained a grand total of 20 lbs since high school some 20 years ago. I don't overeat and could lose this 20lbs whenever I feel like it, which might be soon, I lost 12lbs just walking around Europe....
[QUOTE=Cruiser D]Have you actually talked to anyone who serves in the US active military? Their professionalism and high morale always amazes me. Most of them realized when they signed up it wouldn't always be a Stateside or Western Europe posting. One doesn't sign up to be a trash truck driver and then gets amazed he has to drive trash around. It's the Reserves and the NG that got the real raw deal.
Bin Laden and his organization are a world problem - the bombings in W Europe and SE Asia. Afghanistan is a more true coalition operation and I don’t think support for it will be wavering anytime soon. Iraq was W's own personal deal, him fronting for the Saudi’s and big Oil. The only way we got anyone to support us in Iraq is by W squandering our good will capital in W Europe and bribing E Europe.
If the British had sent planes to bomb Ireland the US and the UN would have been there within a few days, probably not a good idea. I don't think there were any planes involved in the Easter Rebellion but there was plenty of artillery and a naval gunboat.[/QUOTE]
Some, of course they are proud to serve but only crazy wanna-be butchers that play too much Halo and Call of Duty in their free time actually WANT to be there.
In fact all the people that love playing FPS' so much should find there way to the local recruiting office, put your "skills" to use, most of them are slackers.
That has nothing to do with supporting an illegal war, which many of them don't and the way they CHEERED loudly when it was final that Obama was President-Elect...
They are thinking about COMING HOME finally!
I hope this is the last time the MIC or Congress give the go-ahead for any war. We have NOT needed to fight any war since WW2 and should have left it at that.
Cheney learning from 'Nam didn't want any public involvement in wars and wanted to ban pictures of coffins coming back on planes because they wanted to insulate the public from the war. If they saw the death and most of the destruction, they would march in the street. Eventually did they march in the streets but the mainstream media didn't cover it.
Now the Occupation is issue number #4 after the Economy, National Health Care and other issues.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lTUB5_l0Mg[/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7abu9a0xtNI[/url]
LIES, all of them
Makes jokes about WMD's now in front of Republican Fund Raisers
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VD1gOhpRSU&feature=related[/url]
Don't give me that crap about US Soliders are prideful and want to fight this war.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_cjkWevHNM&feature=related[/url]
D I like you man but c'mon...
Yeah, one wonders were you used to buy your food Bango, did someone put a gun to your head and force you to always buy over processed crap?
Umm, like I said DJ, have you actually talked to a US soldier? I don't get my news or views on what soldiers are thinking from youtube. I spend some time on US military bases and I interact with the soldiers.
And the US right now has the capability to feed the world, the government still pays farmers not to farm. I don't think food is going to be our next crisis, that is as long as you can afford it. ;)
[QUOTE=Cruiser D]Yeah, one wonders were you used to buy your food Bango, did someone put a gun to your head and force you to always buy over processed crap?
Umm, like I said DJ, have you actually talked to a US soldier? I don't get my news or views on what soldiers are thinking from youtube. I spend some time on US military bases and I interact with the soldiers.
And the US right now has the capability to feed the world, the government still pays farmers not to farm. I don't think food is going to be our next crisis, that is as long as you can afford it. ;)[/QUOTE]
Yes I have, the last one; he was glad to be home, he was glad he got discharged with honor and didn't support it one bit. He joined before the War (long before, '99) and been in Kosovo as well.
Yes there knuckle heads that support any kind of battle, it gives them a hard-on, killing Iraqis now around 1.5 Million, many of them CHILDREN is hardly creditable to supporting a War, they just like KILLING PEOPLE.
I don't get my news from You Tube. I watched Winter Solider since no other media outlet would support it, after all when your GE (NBC), you can't have any dissension in the ranks. For CBS and ABC, its just flat disappeared from the news, its covered less than 2% by anybody but Democracy Now and other left leaning channels/web sites which reports on it every f***king day.
Its because everybody largely ignored the mainstream media is proof how Obama won by a landslide and that maybe you should get your news from You Tube.
Also Nate Silver who's a Sports Stat man had closer predictions than any other "classical" poll out there, further proving that mainstream media is out of touch. The best thing was turning Palin into a Cartoon by Tina Fey which was the most powerful thing that happen and was heaven sent.
Who cares who's Army is better, I sure as hell don't
I didn't say soldiers particularly support the war, they just go about their business with amazing professionalism and dedication. Just about none want be in Iraq.
Obama didn't will by a popular vote landslide, just in the Electoral College. Which by the way needs to be done away with. It just serves no purpose, other then allowing W to become president in 2000 and starting the travesty of the last 8 years. The Electoral College has as much relevance now as having to be a white male landowner to vote.
[QUOTE=DJ FourMoney]Yes I have, the last one; he was glad to be home, he was glad he got discharged with honor and didn't support it one bit. He joined before the War (long before, '99) and been in Kosovo as well.
Yes there knuckle heads that support any kind of battle, it gives them a hard-on, killing Iraqis now around 1.5 Million, many of them CHILDREN is hardly creditable to supporting a War, they just like KILLING PEOPLE.
[/QUOTE]Good thing he is out of the army because the army doesn't need people like him.
True that many soldiers don't fully understand or support the war in Iraq. Initially I didn't either. I certainly didn't buy into the entire premise of the war.
Nonetheless, most soldiers I have spoken to do believe in what they are doing and do believe that ultimately their hard work and sacrifice will benefit Iraq and the United States. US involvment in Iraq has evolved from the initial (and faulty) premise that we went there to protect ourselves from terrorists. It was regime change protocol from the very beginning. Nonetheless, Iraq 2002-2005 is not the Iraq of today. Priorities, mission, position have all changed significantly and the army is doing a very good job excercising a mission that it was never trained or intended to do. They are learning very quickly.
It will be a long time before the US has fully extracted itself out of Iraq, if that is the US intention at all. The investment into the country can't be measured in $ alone... neither can the cost.
Just like in a relationship, the longer you are in the harder it is to get out.
We are in for another 3 years at least. I suspect we"ll be there longer under other less-martial terms, which we should be. If we aren't, somebody else will be. [url]http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081115/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iraq[/url][QUOTE=DJ FourMoney] Who cares who's Army is better, I sure as hell don't[/QUOTE]Let's hope you and the rest of the apathetic civilian world never have to find out or be dependent on an army which you don't care about.[QUOTE=DJ FourMoney]Some, of course they are proud to serve but only crazy wanna-be butchers that play too much Halo and Call of Duty in their free time actually WANT to be there.[/QUOTE]That's a ridiculous statement. Never believed in anything in your life? You've obviously never been a soldier so don't start thinking you know what it is like because you watched something on youtube or talked to some disgruntled buddies.
[QUOTE=DJ FourMoney]..
Yes there knuckle heads that support any kind of battle, it gives them a hard-on, killing Iraqis now around 1.5 Million, many of them CHILDREN is hardly creditable to supporting a War, they just like KILLING PEOPLE.
[/QUOTE]
The reality is the Unted States could have gone into Iraq and fought a war in which hardly any Americans would die at all. Got a problem in Fallujah? Boom. No more Fallujah. The US did not go down that road in the interest of limiting civilian casualties.
The kind of war the folks at [i]Democracy Now[/i] and [i]The Lancet[/i] dream of when they produce numbers like 1.5 million is this kind of total war. The currency of these people is not truth. They have an agenda and they move ideas forward based on the agenda, not on reality. The bigger the number, the more self-satisfied they feel. That's just the way it is.
The American Association for the Advancement of Science has had a few interesting articles in [i]Science[/i] trying to understand and questioning why the Lancet numbers were so far off every other study of civilian casualties. I think any reasonable person would at least ask the same kind of questions. I'd encourage you to be more critical of your sources.
Actually Jelly we started a limited total war during the height of the insurgency (egads sounds like Vietnam doublespeak) after watching the Brits employ it with results in Basra. Take sniper fire from a highrise? Boom, no more highrise. 1.5 mil sounds a bit excessive. 100k, maybe.
Dr S, we'll be in Iraq until they boot us out or 20-40 years in one form or another take your pick.
The Middle East has always been the 800lb gorilla in the room no one wants to talk about. We could have either invaded Iraq or spent all the money and resources on going fossil fuel free - if we had done that in 2003 we'd probably be 70% free by now. Instead of an economy tittering on the edge we be in a powerful surge like the 40's, 50's and 60's. We could have continued our cold war in the Middle East and keep applying political and economic pressure while reducing the Middle East relative importance in the world. For the best interests of the USA the W administration chose the wrong path. Instead the W administration chose a path that was against the best interests of the country while benefiting foreign countries and big oil. The US military has done a great job and continues to be at the forefront of emerging military doctrine and tactics. W and the rest of the crew should be Perp walked out the White House, sadly that will never happen.
In NYC farmers markets have limited hours. And Trader Joes and Whole Foods are STILL junk.
Here in Bogota I can walk 15 minutes and be in a REAL farmers market, open year round, 6 days a week, and has food that blows away the best farmers market in the US. And it costs about 8 cents on the dollar what it costs in the US too!!
[QUOTE=DJ FourMoney]Well food has to travel great distances, nobody's fault the people that kept buying up farmland to put suburbs up. Its happening in Central California now, they say by 2020 or slightly later all the rich Central California farmland will be covered in sub-divisions.
I hope it doesn't happen or that will be the next crisis in America, were do we grow the food!
Food is fine in America man, go to a Farmer's Market, Trader Joe's or Whole Foods Markets you'll be just fine....
I still eat "junk" gained a grand total of 20 lbs since high school some 20 years ago. I don't overeat and could lose this 20lbs whenever I feel like it, which might be soon, I lost 12lbs just walking around Europe....[/QUOTE]
Israeli Iran war will be the first big crisis Obama will deal with. Its coming, don't think it ain't. A major confrontation between Israel and Iran is on the cards.
You must be on drugs, Iran is destined to go nuclear and its going to have serious reverberations. There was a recently released intelligence report that paints a grim picture regarding the USA's ability to influence the world over the next 12 to 17 years. Since its written by the CIA its very credible and a lot more than the nonsense I am reading on this forum that America is going to continue along as the dominant force in the world, especially from the resident pom Geneva schoolboy on this board. Among the big developments is the rise of non Arab Muslim powers, Iran, Indonesia, and Turkey are all mentioned. Iran will be the first to get the bomb, the other two will also be on their way. Also the Dollar will lose its exclusive role as the world reserve currency and compete with the other major units of wealth such as the Euro and the Renmimbi.
Obama's more diplomatic plan to remake the 21st Century a continued American century is going to fail just like Bush's militaristic plan.
Biden is just being realistic about things, and probably was just adding reality to the current euphoria over Obama, which will not last very long. The conventional US military machine will not mean much when other nations have nukes. The MAD principle never went away and it still pretty much dictates US relations with China and Russia to a heavy degree. Why else are we less antagonistic to Moscow and Beijing even though they have serious issues with human rights, especially Beijing? And I bet the same will go for US relations with Iran in the coming years, there will be no other choice. Within the time frame of that report China will have substantially more advanced nuclear capability than right now. India will also be a factor in the MAD principle too.
American politics is screwed up, I don't really give a rat about Democracy any more. Democracy allowed that horrific massacre in India to occur. Recently went to China, a police state, got as much p4p as I can dream about, and no worries with the law over there. If I did the same thing in the good old USA I would be in lock up in no time flat, the cops would put up a photo of me on TV and the web saying CBGB visits hookers. I don't care for Israel or Iran either but the Mideast has been a big part of US foreign policy since Truman.
Obama was talking all about "Change" but look what happened? He is surrounding himself by a bunch of graybeards. And despite the slowdown plaguing the US and Europe, China will still be the fastest growing big economy in the world for a very long time, maybe not growing at 12 to 13 percent like it has recently, but still at a very healthy clip and I bet their Renmimbi will appreciate dramatically over the next 10 years which will effectively make them the richest nation on Earth in a little over a decade. much sooner than 2035 that most people predicted they would be numero uno by.
i'd like to bring up the kind of american politics that really matters - the theocracy taking an american freedom fighter prisoner. i don't know if any of you know max harcore, but he produces, directs, and acts in some of the finest pornography out there, and thusly, he became a specific target of the bush administration's move to end free speech and implement theocracy (said program began in earnest in 2005).
[url=http://www.boingboing.net/2008/10/07/adult-film-director.html]just a month or so ago, max was sentenced to four years in prison(!) for 'obscenity'.[/url]
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/max_hardcore]wiki about max[/url]
Do you guys live in far away isolated cabins with internet access?
[url]http://www.yahoo.com/s/135782/*http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081206/ap_on_re_us/oj_simpson[/url]
OJ put himself in this position but an all white jury could there be any other outcome?
A lot of child molesters don't receive this much time.
O.J. gets at least 9 years for armed hotel robbery
A weary and beaten-looking O.J. Simpson was put away Friday for at least nine years — and perhaps the rest of his life — for an armed robbery in a hotel room, bringing a measure of satisfaction to those who believed the football star got away with murder more than a decade ago.
The 61-year-old Hall of Famer listened stone-faced, his wrists in shackles, as Judge Jackie Glass pronounced the sentence — 33 years behind bars with eligibility for parole after less than a third of that.
Moments before, Simpson made a rambling, five-minute plea for leniency, simultaneously apologizing for the holdup as a foolish mistake and trying to justify his actions.
He choked back tears as he told her: "I didn't mean to steal anything from anybody ... I'm sorry. I'm sorry for all of it."
The judge said several times that her sentence in the Las Vegas case had nothing to do with Simpson's 1995 acquittal in the slaying of his ex-wife Nicole Brown Simpson and her friend Ronald Goldman.
"I'm not here to try and cause any retribution or any payback for anything else," Glass said.
But Goldman's father, Fred Goldman, and sister, Kim, said they were delighted with the sentence.
"We are thrilled, and it's a bittersweet moment," Fred Goldman said. "It was satisfying seeing him in shackles like he belongs."
Simpson said he and five other men were simply trying to retrieve sports memorabilia and other mementos when he stormed a Las Vegas hotel room occupied by two dealers on Sept. 13, 2007. He insisted the items, which included his first wife's wedding ring, had been stolen from him.
But the judge emphasized that it was a violent confrontation in which at least one gun was drawn, and she said someone could have been shot. She said the evidence was overwhelming, with the planning, the confrontation itself and the aftermath all recorded on audio or videotape.
Glass, a no-nonsense judge known for tough sentences, imposed such a complex series of consecutive and concurrent sentences that even many lawyers watching the case were confused as to how much time Simpson got.
Simpson could serve up to 33 years, according to Elana Roberto, the judge's clerk.
In state prison, he will remain in his own cell protected from the general prison population because of his celebrity.
Simpson's lawyer suggested again that his client was a victim of payback for his acquittal in Los Angeles.
"It really made us all aware that despite our best efforts, it's very difficult to separate the California case from the Nevada case," attorney Yale Galanter said.
Some people who followed the case said justice had finally caught up with Simpson.
"You do things and you've got to expect karma to come around," said Greg Wheatley, 32, of Los Angeles.
Simpson was led away to prison immediately after the judge refused to permit him to go free on bail while he appeals.
Simpson's co-defendant and former golfing buddy, Clarence "C.J. Stewart, was sentenced to up to 27 years in prison but would be eligible for parole after 7 1/2 years, court officials said.
The judge could have sent both men to prison for the rest of their lives. The state parole agency recommended at least 18 years. The defense pushed for the minimum six years.
District Attorney David Roger revealed that Simpson and Stewart had both been offered plea agreements during the trial that would have resulted in lesser sentences. He would not provide details.
The prosecutor also said that because the crimes were considered violent felonies, Simpson and Stewart will not be eligible for good-behavior credits to lessen their sentences. He did not expect them to be immediately released when they do seek parole.
The Goldmans took a share of the credit for Simpson's fate, saying their relentless pursuit of his assets to satisfy a $33.5 million wrongful-death judgment "pushed him over the edge" and led him to commit the robbery to recover some of his valuable sports memorabilia.
Nicole Brown Simpson's sister, Denise Brown, released a statement from her family referring to the date her sister and Ron Goldman were killed.
"Allowing wealth, power and control to consume himself, he made a horrific choice on June 12, 1994, which has spiraled into where he is today," the statement said.
Simpson and Stewart were both brought to the courtroom in dark blue jail uniforms, their hands chained to their waists. Simpson, who had not been expected to speak, delivered his statement to the judge in a hoarse voice before a hushed courtroom.
Both men were convicted Oct. 3 of 12 criminal charges, including kidnapping and armed robbery.
"We were preparing Mr. Simpson for the worst," Galanter said. "We felt we did really well. Obviously, he's upset about the possibility of doing nine years."
Galanter planned to file a notice of appeal later Friday. He believed the Goldman family's presence in the courtroom was inappropriate.
Most of the 63 seats in the courtroom were taken by media, lawyers and family members of the defendants. Fifteen members of the public were also allowed.
After sentencing was over, the Goldmans left the courtroom and Kim threw her arms around her father and wept.
One of Simpson's sisters declined to comment, and the other, Shirley Baker, said only: "It's not over."
Jurors who heard 13 days of testimony said after the verdict that they were convinced of Simpson's guilt because of audio recordings that were secretly made of the robbery at the Palace Station casino hotel.
The confrontation involved sports memorabilia brokers Alfred Beardsley and Bruce Fromong. It was recorded by collectibles dealer Thomas Riccio, who was acting as middleman.
"Don't let nobody out of this room!" Simpson commands on the recordings, and he instructs other men to scoop up items.
On Tuesday, the judge is scheduled to sentence four former co-defendants who took plea deals and testified against Simpson and Stewart.
Michael McClinton, Charles Cashmore, Walter Alexander and Charles Ehrlich could receive probation or prison time. McClinton could get up to 11 years; the others face less.
___
Associated Press wri
Big whoop, OJ was guilty then and guilty now. He largely got away with it then and was pushing his luck now. Next time he should have used normal legal procedures to get his so called property instead of taking the law into his own hands.
What about an Illinois Governor trying to sell a US Senate seat?
This fool got caught, on tape, trying to sell Obamas senate seat.
Wow, so far Israel has decided to attack Hamas rather than defang Tehran's nuclear program. I am wondering just how US foreign policy will develop under Obama after Bush's hawkish leadership. Obama has repeatedly said he wants to sit down and talk with the leader of Iran without any precondition. Its going to be some very interesting times.
[QUOTE=Jelly Donut]The reality is the Unted States could have gone into Iraq and fought a war in which hardly any Americans would die at all. Got a problem in Fallujah? Boom. No more Fallujah. The US did not go down that road in the interest of limiting civilian casualties.
The kind of war the folks at [i]Democracy Now[/i] and [i]The Lancet[/i] dream of when they produce numbers like 1.5 million is this kind of total war. The currency of these people is not truth. They have an agenda and they move ideas forward based on the agenda, not on reality. The bigger the number, the more self-satisfied they feel. That's just the way it is.
The American Association for the Advancement of Science has had a few interesting articles in [i]Science[/i] trying to understand and questioning why the Lancet numbers were so far off every other study of civilian casualties. I think any reasonable person would at least ask the same kind of questions. I'd encourage you to be more critical of your sources.[/QUOTE]
I am highly critical of the "Left" they are a trip...
Did we need a war in Iraq? No
Does it matter that people of color have Nuclear Weapons? No
You talk to "Rouge" nations into not being "Rouge". People want Nukes because they FEAR ATTACK BY THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. If our industries needed more salt for example and India had it, I bet somebody would actually have a discussion about how many Americans would be killed by one nuclear missile getting through our "Star Wars" defense plan and calling that "acceptable losses".
The whole idea of "Preventive" War is ridiculous, a couple of Saudis get some planes and fly them into some buildings and there's a whole series of QUESTIONS surrounding that, so WHY is it acceptable to so many???
That's because Americans are largely STUPID, feel sorry about Rich people getting more of the tax burden and that would cause mass firings and job loss... Again RIDICULOUS!
Look I have a bs job man, you have some edumacated job because you went to school, good for you. Just because I don't want additional responsibly in my job I shouldn't be made to live a pauper's life.
I like not worrying about other people's shit, customer service and that whole nonsense about the "Customer is always right" That is ONLY said in America... I am not greedy, my needs are taken care of for the most part, but I can't afford health care, while people that work at McDonald's in Denmark have free health care and school, umm they don't have nearly as large a tax base as we do, something is WRONG with that picture.
Nobody in America asked to have bases in 100+ countries around the world, hell 90% don't even know we have that many.
I voted NO on Prop 8 because I UNDERSTOOD what it was about. It was a TRICK QUESTION, half of the people didn't even understand what they were saying YES too, that's the lack of critical thinking in this country.
I could be more objective about my sources but I don't go around justifying having "manageable" wars, there's no such thing. I just want to find a nice girl that will fuck me on a regular basis, looks good while doing it and won't nag me to death, that isn't much to ask for but you know the solution to that problem isn't easily solved don't you????
Solving this is actually EASY just takes some WILL POWER...
[QUOTE=Sgt Perv]What about an Illinois Governor trying to sell a US Senate seat?
This fool got caught, on tape, trying to sell Obamas senate seat.[/QUOTE]
I think this was a setup to try and throw Obama under the bus and it didn't work. I think Gov "F" Bomb will get ran out of office but ultimately be exonerated with little public fanfare.
[QUOTE=DJ FourMoney]
Did we need a war...?
[/QUOTE]
What is going on DJ? I mean, I'm happy that you are amplifying my post from the middle of November, but a bit concerned since it indicates a level of boredom that may be unhealthy in the wake of the holidays. For some reason, I imagine this time of year being a bit hard on the average ISGer. I hope things are going well.
Also, I hope you forgive me for not dashing into arguments with you on Iraq, race, the problems of nuclear weapons proliferation, the stupidity of humanity. Although, I definately appreciate this holiday gift....
[QUOTE=DJ FourMoney]
Just because I don't want additional responsibly in my job I shouldn't be made to live a pauper's life
[/QUOTE]
It's like throwing a baby harp seal into the polar bear pen. It's wonderful bait. A true sacrifice for Eid al-Adha.
I appreciate the thought, but I've got no passion to bust on your thinking (one of the features of getting older, more conservative, is you really can live and let live and not generally give a fuck).
[QUOTE=DJ FourMoney]
I just want to find a nice girl that will fuck me on a regular basis
[/QUOTE]
Excellent. I wish you the best of luck with this resolution in the New Year!
[QUOTE=DJ FourMoney]
Jews in America have alot of money and alot of political power when it comes to Israel [/QUOTE]
That is very true...The company i work for is owned by jews and they are filthy rich only problem i found was they are very stingy..i mean very..no matter how good you are or work hard...there is no raise and
They even seem to know i earn and burn my monthly salery and i cant leave them..i dont know..but they seem to build a web around a person and know the whole world or i have become psycologically damaged to learn to know how these guys make money and still keep the workforce to keep working for them :)
It is really complex to understand jews, isreal and palestine in every sphere :)
Study history. the jews have been persecuted since the days of christ and before that. In europe they have been persecuted for 1000 years.
In today's world, the Europeans are mad because the jews fight back. While they do not attack Israel directly, they use Hamas, hezbollah and other groups to do their dirty word, as does Iran. The europeans give terrorist money...
In the past few days in europe, jews have been shot in Denmanrk, property torched in France, and Belgium and jews have been threatened throughout.
Of course the jews are Europe's secondary target. In the long run their main target is the USA.. same thing, they will not attack america, but will fund the attack...
That is what they are, I am a christian american, but If I were a jew, i would never live in strutting euroclown land
[QUOTE=DJ FourMoney]Why because Jews have America and largely Western Europe by the NUTZ...
Jews in America have alot of money and alot of political power when it comes to Israel they lead the charge on any foreign policy involving the Jewish State. They see the "threat" of Hammas as they are aligned with Iran complicating matters all the more.
Its a big mess and I stop trying to figure it out years ago. Its not like I wanna go their anyway, there millions of Jews in America, what advantage would there be to hooking up with some Jewish girl in Israel???? They are likely just as spoiled as the ones already here....[/QUOTE]
How many times do we have to hear this "Jews are controlling the world" line? Have you bothered to check your facts?
1. If you go to any university campus (and almost all of them are more heavily left wing), you will find Jews in all those same left wing organizations. Same thing with organizations like ACLU (a heavily Jewish organization). But the left wing is consistently very hostile toward Israel. So what does that mean? Being Jewish in the US is not necessarily to be in support of Israel. The right is more supportive of Israel, but Jews vote something like 90% Democrat (got this from a Thomas Sowell article). Think about that moist, pulsating asshole Noam Chomsky. He is always whining about Israel. And Norman Finklestein.
2. The US is ass backwards compared to whom/ what? Africans (ha ha ha-- those morons can't even set up HIV prevention programs)? Europeans (who have regulated themselves out of jobs and probably can't even defend themselves)? Chinese (who are determined that time is measured between one collapsing dynasty and another.... and that the forward progression of time-- as much as it ever progresses in China-- is from the conflict of one dead old man with the next)?
3. I'm sitting here looking at your misspelled posts. If most Americans are ignorant (you said something like this somewhere back along the line, but I don't have the time to invest in finding and posting the quote), and you can't even spell your posts correctly, what does that say about your intelligence? Are you on the same level as all other Americans or are you even worse off?
4. Are Jewish girls really that spoiled? Or do you just not have enough game to attract them? I get SO SICK of people always making that special case in which to wrap Anti-Semitism. My experience with black women are MUCH WORSE than with Jewish women. BY FAR. (And I am black. If I took the ratio of bad experiences with black shrews to those with Judge Judy type Jewish shrews, it would be something like 100:1)
[QUOTE=MJG Dogs]Study history. the jews have been persecuted since the days of christ and before that. In europe they have been persecuted for 1000 years.
In today's world, the Europeans are mad because the jews fight back. While they do not attack Israel directly, they use Hamas, hezbollah and other groups to do their dirty word, as does Iran. The europeans give terrorist money...
In the past few days in europe, jews have been shot in Denmanrk, property torched in France, and Belgium and jews have been threatened throughout.
Of course the jews are Europe's secondary target. In the long run their main target is the USA.. same thing, they will not attack america, but will fund the attack...
That is what they are, I am a christian american, but If I were a jew, i would never live in strutting euroclown land[/QUOTE] I kind of agree with you. The Jews found NO PEACE in Europe for something like 1,000 years. And now that they have left to found their own country, the Europeans want to begrudge them EVEN THAT. WTF?
Think about it euroclowns. if you had stopped Hitler perhaps none of this would have happened. All you Neville Chamberlain types out there, wake up. It is happening again. The USA, along with a few other countries like Colombia, Argentina, Brasil, The Dominican republic and Australia are the only real safe havens for jews.
But then again you euros are so angry and full of rage, for you ruled the world until 1945, and then a nation of castoffs, rejects, immigrants outflanked you...
ha ha ha. It also bruns them inside that the USA, despite its current status could toy with Europe anytime it choses too. So could Russia, as it is doing now, by cutting off their natural gas supply. Rememeber europe is also an enemy of Russia's, not just israel and the USA
And how angry is europe now at Obama becuase he is smart he is not saying anything..They will be pissed when Obama does not throw Israel under the bus.Read the EU newspapers, especially in the UK, they are furious
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]The Jewish power base is much more prevalent in North America than in Europe, with the exception of a few countries Europeans are not as warm to Jews as Americans. In Germany its mostly the politicians who are warm to them, everyday people are another story.[/QUOTE]
Yet there are (obviously Jews) like MJG Dogs who can't get enough of this very dated topic. Nobody in Europe has genuine interest in debating Jews and their history, who likes them, who doesn't. People don't f*cking care. MJG Dogs' anti-Europe rage is overwhelming. I don't believe he has slightest idea of what's he's talking about. European ambivalence in Palestinian conflict is a result of general approach to troublemakers, and no sensible government jumps happily into a 60 years old conflict, where actually no part is truly interested in peace.
[Quote=MJG Dogs]Think about it euroclowns. if you had stopped Hitler perhaps none of this would have happened. All you Neville Chamberlain types out there, wake up. It is happening again. The USA, along with a few other countries like Colombia, Argentina, Brasil, The Dominican republic and Australia are the only real safe havens for jews.[/quote]
Well, then stay in your favourite countries, and don't visit Europe. Can't be that hard, can it? Or better, go to Israel and stay there. After all, Jews finally got a legitimate place to live and prosper, in Israel.
Jews = good. Fact.
Shoot missiles at me, I blow your ass up.
A culture that promotes and rewards intelligence, values the maintenance of their own culture while not comdemning others, has the balls to defend itself uncompromisingly, can laugh at itself without feeling insecure, welcomes people of any race or culture... etc. etc. What's not to admire?
Have I contributed significantly to this conversation?
[size=-2][b][u]EDITOR'S NOTE[/u]:[/b] [blue]This report was deleted because the content of the report was [u]largely argumentative[/u]. Please read the Forum FAQ and the Forum's Posting Guidelines for more information. [i]Thank You![/i][/blue][/size]
leeuwen- go put your brownshirt and leather boots back on, remember your hero rohm, the first leader of the brownshirts was a flaming queer like you are, and yes i do not care for the majority of you eur-o-[url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord134][CodeWord134][/url]-ons, comprende???
[url]http://business.inquirer.net/money/breakingnews/view/20090107-181885/US-tycoon-found-dead-in-apparent-suicide[/url]
US tycoon found dead in apparent suicide
Agence France-Presse
First Posted 10:10:00 01/07/2009
Filed Under: World Financial Crisis, Suicide, Personalities
Close this CHICAGO--The head of one of the largest US real estate auction houses was found dead of an apparently self-inflicted gunshot wound, officials said Tuesday.
Steven Good was discovered parked in a forest preserve near Chicago on Monday morning, the Kane County Sheriff's Department said.
There was no note found in his red Jaguar indicating a motive and it was unclear whether his death was related to his work.
Good's death came hours before that of German billionaire Adolf Merckle, who threw himself under a train after he was brought to the brink of ruin by the financial crisis.
A French investment manager, Thierry de la Villehuchet, who lost more than a billion dollars in the alleged pyramid scheme of Wall Street titan Bernard Madoff killed himself last month.
Good was the chairman and chief executive of Chicago-based Sheldon Good & Company Auctions International.
The firm says it has sold over 40,000 properties at an aggregate total of over $9.5 billion since it was founded by Good's father in 1965.
Good, 52, was the driving force behind the firm's expansion and was involved in $4 billion in sales, according to a company biography.
Company president Alan Kravets hailed Good as "one of his industry's most brilliant minds and most successful entrepreneurs" and offered his condolences to Good's wife, children and father.
"It is testimony to Steve's leadership that Sheldon Good & Company remains well positioned for the future," Kravets said in a statement
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]... its rare for Asian women to westernize their appearance.[/QUOTE]
I don't know about the other stuff you wrote, but I do know about this. There is a THRIVING business in China regarding plastic surgery on women's eyes to make them look more Western and less Asian. For a few decades now, Chinese women have been 'fixing' their eyes. This has been commemted upon by the media and studied by academics who research self-image issues and race/beauty perception issues. The strong Chinese economy in recent years has afforded many more Chinese women to have this surgery.
I can't comment on breast implants or butt implants or other Asian countries besides China, but Chinese women frequently Westernize their eyes.
Are you referring to Bleroplasty? I have heard of it, but most Chinese tend to keep their Asian appearance. Some younger Japanese get into punk culture with purple hair and shit like that but for the most part they still look Asian. The whitening thing is big in South Asia, skin lightening advertisements are so common. Even there at the end of the day most of these people wind up looking only fair complexioned against other Indians not Westerners.
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]I was referring to Asians in Asia, and Asian people in Australia tend to stick to the old country's ways. Smell a white female when she has not showered for a while. I flew on Air France, which I will never do again, and the whole plain stunk like BO. Asian women tend to have milder body odors. I even know a Japanese guy who told me he does not care for Caucasian women for the fact that they get fat and they often have poor hygiene, would rather date other Asians, thats why not that many Asian men go after white women. I got an Asian girlfriend that holds down a full time job but still manages to make dinner. Every Caucasian woman I have had a relationship with would usually look a for a take out menu.[/QUOTE]
Granted I've only seen pictures of NZ and AU located Asians and they are influenced by Western culture maybe in dress, makeup and hair die. I know of the BO you speak of with French people, I know am GENERALIZING here....
You as well as myself highlight the lack of "domestic skills" with American women and I'm sure you'll find the same problems with British women and some Canadian women out of the countries that speak English firstly.
I can find a girl that can cook, but you have to weigh that vs a better looking girl that will take care of herself over a longer time period (and offers other benefits), where a girl from a more rural area where looks are almost secondary after your married tend to let themselves go and if they are raising children they have constant access to food where a once skinny girl becomes plump like a turkey.
Again shouldn't this be in the LTR section or something?? I guess the Opinion forum is basically another name for "Off Topic".
I don't know guys, its confusing at best and tiresome at the worst. I can fully understand the P4P scenario but I just happen to think, in the long run a LTR is cost effective, its just the matter of finding the right woman to fit your "economic model".
Jackson feel free to move the last couple of post to the right thread, thanks...
[QUOTE=Clandestine782] I think it safe to say that someone who makes over $100,000 a year does not have that much free time.[/QUOTE]I'm not butting into your argument at all, but I can confirm it is often quite the opposite. Unless you are a doctor, engineer, lawyer or somebody involved in tedious technical time-consuming work, it usually works the other way around. The more you make the more free time you do have.
Life ain't fair.
[QUOTE=George90]
Make of it what you will, the results have always benefited Israel.[/QUOTE]
Well, an objective observer might claim world events thus far appear to always benefit me (certainly far more than Israel), but that does not mean I'm running a vast and sinister conspiracy from my underground Bunker.
As far as most anyone knows.
Anyway, I think I understand your point, but just because history seems to have favored Israel recently...I can't imagine a reasonable person could envy Israel's overall strategic and historic situation. It's been around for 60 years and only two of it's neighbors have recognized it; "As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map." is a quote from the Iranian President, not just some chump on the streets of Isphan. So, while Israel might pull off an Entebbe or Osirak or play an essentially tactical situation well - it's not winning the big game. With luck, maybe 10 years down the road, Iraq might recognize it. Maybe. But the way I see it, the clock is running down -
[url]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article2983719.ece[/url]
And, while this may all seem very remote to the average American, whenever I think about it I also reflect on how the First World War started and how much more connected the world seems to be today. Read the Homeland Security Threat Assessment for the years 2008-13. It's very depressing where this all seems to be going. It seems to me that we could wake up one day in the not distant future and live in a fundamentally worse way than we do today.
So, it leads to a kind of "carpe diem light" political philosophy down here in the Bunker - which I'm sure you will grasp for paradox "seize the day, but do it in moderation".
Otherwise, I would do Michelle Obama and I would do Beyonce and I have enough self-knowledge to say I would even fuck an ugly French aristocratic chick. Avec plaisir. I've screwed some damn ugly women; just thinking about it sends a chill up my arms. I blame biology, but still....what a pig.
[QUOTE=Jelly Donut]Well, an objective observer might claim world events thus far appear to always benefit me (certainly far more than Israel), but that does not mean I'm running a vast and sinister conspiracy from my underground Bunker.
As far as most anyone knows.
Anyway, I think I understand your point, but just because history seems to have favored Israel recently...I can't imagine a reasonable person could envy Israel's overall strategic and historic situation. It's been around for 60 years and only two of it's neighbors have recognized it; "As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map." is a quote from the Iranian President, not just some chump on the streets of Isphan. So, while Israel might pull off an Entebbe or Osirak or play an essentially tactical situation well - it's not winning the big game. With luck, maybe 10 years down the road, Iraq might recognize it. Maybe. But the way I see it, the clock is running down -
[url]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article2983719.ece[/url]
And, while this may all seem very remote to the average American, whenever I think about it I also reflect on how the First World War started and how much more connected the world seems to be today. Read the Homeland Security Threat Assessment for the years 2008-13. It's very depressing where this all seems to be going. It seems to me that we could wake up one day in the not distant future and live in a fundamentally worse way than we do today.
So, it leads to a kind of "carpe diem light" political philosophy down here in the Bunker - which I'm sure you will grasp for paradox "seize the day, but do it in moderation".
Otherwise, I would do Michelle Obama and I would do Beyonce and I have enough self-knowledge to say I would even fuck an ugly French aristocratic chick. Avec plaisir. I've screwed some damn ugly women; just thinking about it sends a chill up my arms. I blame biology, but still....what a pig.[/QUOTE]Well today I woke up and read the News paper call the Vancouver Sun in Canada on the Internet. I am in Russia at this time. The report Obama and Oil so you all out there are wondering whats this about? Ok Oil is today $42. 23 cents a barrel when I left for Russia A gallon of gas Regular in Canada was $0. 70 cents a liter. Thats $2. 80 A gallon. A barrel of oil today is $40. 34. It is now $0. 95 cents atliter today. Which means it went up $0. 15 atliter over night so its now $3. 80 cents a gallon in Canada. Every body knows that we are in a sever recession thats NO news. Because of this economic MELT down theres not a big demand for oil. OK so the only bright spot was GAS prices when LOW gave people more, consumer spending, discesionary money to spend. Like going out for dinner buying clothes etc. Now that OIL prices are still LOW why are GAS prices at the PUMPS getting higher. That will definately cause a DEPRESSION. That was the only bright shinning thing going for the world. So now the OIL companies are really screwing the world. So Obama with all his powers and trying to stimulate the US Economy all his HARD work will be for nothing. High Prices at the pumps are STEALING money from the people. As far as I see it WE are all doom. No matter what Obama does the OIL companies (parasites) will fuck up all of Obamas hard efforts.
[QUOTE=Jelly Donut]So, while Israel might pull off an Entebbe or Osirak or play an essentially tactical situation well - it's not winning the big game. [/QUOTE]I completely agree. I often wonder whether the Israelis and Americans really see and understand the big game or whether it is me who is on a different playing field seeing a different game. 'Cause I'll tell ya, very little of what we and the Israelis have done and are doing there makes any sense in the long run.
I have always asked myself, just how much oil does Israel have that we can afford to favor them so much over Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, U.A.E., Iraq, Iran, etc. Do we have an oil substitute coming out next year?
[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]I bet when all the dust settles in another 20 years or so, the Chinese and the Asians are going to end up calling the shots on this planet.[/QUOTE]I won't bet with you on that because I fear you will win. I think you are correct with your statement.
I work in education. For several decades the US has 'privatized' education in that there are more and more for-profit schools and universities. Part of the reason for that is that state governments are cutting their education budgets and the federal government is cutting its transfers to state governments. The only viable way for educational insitutions to get funds to operate and grow is to beg for it from philanthropists or ask for it from investors.
Well, when the world economy goes into the tank as it has, and many wealthy individuals lose tens of millions to con artists like Bernie Madoff, the philanthropists' funds dry up. In addition, endowment funds have lost billions of dollars this year. Harvard University, with the world's largest private endowment, lost over 15% of its value in 2008. It was over 30 billion in 2006 and 2007. I think it is now around 25 billion, and the income generated from its endowment is almost nil because interest rates are so low now. Harvard announced that it was imposing a hiring freeze on non-faculty appointments, limiting the number of new faculty hires, and imposing limits on faculty raises.
When education gets privatized in terms of having a mission of maximizing shareholder wealth instead of a mission of maximizing student knowledge and ability, the insititutions start to 'market' or 'sell' education to students rather than educate students. The product then morphs into something for which students are willing to pay top dollar. I can tell you from (painful) experience that the product [b]IS NOT[/b] knowledge and ability. It is a credential to a better job, regardless of whether or not that credential is backed up by solid capability. It is just like currency no longer being backed up by gold, but rather only by the confidence that currency holders put into the government that issued the currency. I feel that many US degrees are getting that shaky!
In other countries where the government still controls the higher education industry, like is China or Japan, the quality of the education is still very high. The problem there is that not enough of the population is getting that high quality education. Even here in the US, take a good look at the demographics of who is getting top degrees.
Americans are getting degrees that are not well backed up by capability. Asians take education very seriously and get degrees that are well backed up by capability. It may be less than 20 years before Asians call the shots in the world. It may be only as long as it takes for Baby-Boomers with high quality degrees to retire and be replaced by Gen-Xers with mediocre degrees.
Higher education in America in particular has become a joke, major universities are looking more and more like diploma mills than legitimate institutions of learning. A college education in the US is ridiculously overpriced compared to anywhere else. A new and disturbing trend in the US is the appearance of private for profit universities, there are even a couple of for profit medical schools operating in the US that take students that would not have the grades to make it into a normal non profit medical school, these diploma mills used to be confined to the Caribbean and Eastern Europe but now this money making mill phenomenon is coming to the US. Its also amazing to see how many underemployed university graduates are out there in the work force. Walk into a Whole Foods or a Starbucks and the employees are often ridiculously too educated to work in such a place. I met one woman who had a Phd who worked in Starbucks because she could only get a part time teaching job at a community college. I actually walked into one Whole Foods in NYC and was amazed that the cashier was speaking unbroken and clear English, and it became obvious that she was too overqualified to be bagging groceries.
Asian students generally take their education and their potential degree's earning power a lot more seriously than others. Its no surprise you see a disproportionately large number of Asians in Engineering and Medical related programs at universities, while locals BS around with Theater Arts and other fluff degrees.
I am pretty sure I would win that bet easily.
[blue]Greetings Everyone,
I recently cleaned up this thread by deleting a number of reports focused on racial issues.
This action is in no way a reflection of the merits of any author's comments.
I am aware that the vast majority of references to racial issues are legitimate attempts to advise other fellow members about local racial issues and prejudices. However, past discussions in the Forum has repeatedly demonstrated that the subject simply cannot be discussed intelligently, in any form or for any reason, without being misinterpreted and without starting flame wars.
Please do not engage in discussions about race or racism in the Forum. Please read the Forum's Posting Guidelines for further information.
This cleanup process is not perfect, and it's possible that I may have inadvertently deleted a few otherwise legitimate posts. If you find that your own report was also deleted, please don't take it personally.
Thanks,
Jackson[/blue]
[QUOTE=Born Loser 5]That is very true...The company i work for is owned by jews and they are filthy rich only problem i found was they are very stingy..i mean very..no matter how good you are or work hard...there is no raise and
They even seem to know i earn and burn my monthly salery and i cant leave them..i dont know..but they seem to build a web around a person and know the whole world or i have become psycologically damaged to learn to know how these guys make money and still keep the workforce to keep working for them :)
It is really complex to understand jews, isreal and palestine in every sphere :)[/QUOTE]
Very funny, has happened to me before.
Because of my line of work I switch jobs a lot and do a lot of interviews.
I have noticed it when working for companies that could be definitely be identified as Jewish (Jewish owner or overwhelmingly Jewish management).
It seems to me their art is thinking of knowing the human psyche. With them, it's all a psychological game, as long as you don't know you're playing it or as long as you are willing to play by their rules.
It pretty much happens this way: they take pride in overtly declaring that they are in it for the profit and nothing else, publishing yearly results in great fanfare, almost obliging you to acknowledge that fact.
In the beginning it strikes you as slightly bizarre, why overstating the obvious.
What silently derives from that is that to maximize the profit they crave, they must minimize costs like your salary and the money they spend on your equipment.
So pretty soon you start getting tired of all the pettiness and public penny pinching, and start thinking about leaving.
But then you realize something out of the ordinary. There seems to be a few people in the office who have had very well defined jobs for a long time with the company, which they also make sure to publicly state very often, who want to "become your friends".
After a while you realize they don't really do anything all day long, and they always find the time to come greet you with some ear candy "How are you today? How is your brother Jack?".
These fellows prodigiously remember names of people of your family they've never meet, and ask you about them every time.
After that they proceed to probe you about your colleagues, how you feel at work, a bunch of very personal questions. As soon as you have a question for them, they disappear to "complete that report".
So while becoming sourer and sourer about your company, and isolating yourself more and more from your friends and family, you come to depend more and more from these "work buddies" and their 5 minute daily ear candy, to the point of neglecting your career and not doing the one move to get back on track, quitting the company.
If you ever find the strength to stop that game, like seriously asking for a raise, or asking your "friends" why the project they're on has lasted 5 years already, NOBODY in the company will talk to you any longer.
Maybe this can explain the "web around you" you are feeling.
After having gone through this, one day I found myself interviewing for another Jewish company.
It was a job that needed very special and specific qualifications, and they had looked for a really long time. I was qualified for the job, all the interviewers were very pleased with me, and I was waiting for an offer to be extended.
At some point they got really stuck on my lack of a second personal reference.
Having being burned once, I started stalling as well, so the manager and I exchanged a few emails.
What I noticed is that when they interview, they will find a point of contention and wait for you to beg for the job.
So I answered, "since a second personal reference it's so important for you, I encourage you to keep looking for a person that will be able to provide you with that".
They never replied back. They did not even try to lower the initial salary, or accept another person as a reference. They wanted me to beg, period. I had busted that game, they did not want to play the "acknowledge my worth" game.
What poor sports.
Naturally, this is not intended to characterize Jews in any way, it is just my personal experience.
[QUOTE=MJG Dogs]Study history. the jews have been persecuted since the days of christ and before that. In europe they have been persecuted for 1000 years.
In today's world, the Europeans are mad because the jews fight back. While they do not attack Israel directly, they use Hamas, hezbollah and other groups to do their dirty word, as does Iran. The europeans give terrorist money...
In the past few days in europe, jews have been shot in Denmanrk, property torched in France, and Belgium and jews have been threatened throughout.
Of course the jews are Europe's secondary target. In the long run their main target is the USA.. same thing, they will not attack america, but will fund the attack...
That is what they are, I am a christian american, but If I were a jew, i would never live in strutting euroclown land[/QUOTE]
Europe uses Hamas to attack Israel....Europe will fund an attack against America...
My friend, there are more sources of news than the Onion...
[QUOTE=Freedick]Europe uses Hamas to attack Israel....Europe will fund an attack against America...
My friend, there are more sources of news than the Onion...[/QUOTE]You are completely inaccurate about Europe, its probably the most reliable ally America has against Islamic terror but unlike the US, Europeans will not blindly accept Israel's questionable policies. Europeans are not anti-Israel as Fox News and Murdoch would have you believe, unlike them we really are fair and balanced. Since 1967 Israel has been engaged in a brutal occupation of the West Bank and in Gaza, why do they occupy this land and bully its poorly armed inhabitants? The reason why Europeans do not support Israel in this matter is history, we are reminded of the Holocaust, when unarmed Jews were massacred by the Nazis, so when we the descendants of the same people terrorizing impoverished Palestinians its hypocrisy.
[QUOTE=Freedick]Very funny, has happened to me before.
[/QUOTE]
wow...This is exactly what has been happening to me, I'm just stuck, no social life, cant leave the job, i just burned all my money on fun as i thought i would be promoted and so on. One mistake and im their slave for ever.
No defined role for me as you mentioned..i just do all sorts of work every day.
I dont have any energy left, i have been sucked dry ....hopefully, it will be over soon.
Some posts were deleted a few days back.
For those who are interested, there is a very good article in today's Wall Street Journal about Mid-East politics and America's role in it. The article is wide ranging in that it discusses how US involvement/influence in Israel, Iran, Egypt, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. over the past 40 years or so has helped shape the current state of affairs in that region. It is written by Andrew Higgins.
[QUOTE=Erik The Viking]You are completely inaccurate about Europe, its probably the most reliable ally America has against Islamic terror but unlike the US, Europeans will not blindly accept Israel's questionable policies. Europeans are not anti-Israel as Fox News and Murdoch would have you believe, unlike them we really are fair and balanced. Since 1967 Israel has been engaged in a brutal occupation of the West Bank and in Gaza, why do they occupy this land and bully its poorly armed inhabitants? The reason why Europeans do not support Israel in this matter is history, we are reminded of the Holocaust, when unarmed Jews were massacred by the Nazis, so when we the descendants of the same people terrorizing impoverished Palestinians its hypocrisy.[/QUOTE]Erik, I agree. Have you read Norwegian historian Hilde Waage's recent piece [i]Postscript to Oslo: The Mystery of Norway's Missing Files[/i] in the Journal of Palestine Studies? It's quite interesting...
[url]http://www.palestine-studies.org/journals.aspx?id=10107&jid=1&href=fulltext[/url]
[quote=Waage]Had the missing documents been accessible at the time of writing, there seems no doubt that the findings of my report would have shown even more starkly the extent to which the Oslo process was conducted on Israel’s premises, with Norway acting as Israel’s helpful errand boy.[/quote]I despair of the Palestinians ever getting their state. It's impossible all the while the US blindly supports Israel's crimes.
A video Israel dont want you to watch..it was taken down in youtube also
[url]http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=12012[/url]
[QUOTE=Born Loser 5]A video Israel dont want you to watch..it was taken down in youtube also
[url]http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=12012[/url][/QUOTE]
Well when the Russians enrich IRANS Urainium and plutonium its only a matter of time before they NUKE Israel since Syria has now bought 6 billion dollars worth of Military hardware from Russia and Lebenon has now recieved 25 Mig Jets from Russia Its ONLY a matter of time that middle east will be on equal footing in the Military hard ware . Since the USA has ALWAYS supported Israel What CNN and FOX ABC NBC CBS and the USAs newspapers WILL NOT PRINT I read the MOSCOW TIMES and its ALL in there. The Russians NOW Know WHO was behind the Ossitea uprising. Ukraine USA and Israel. Hmmmm Go Rossiya go God bless Putin.
Shit hitting home mom dukes even told me her company laying off. Only thing I could offer was to leave her dead beat (no job/money having mother fucker) husband and come live in one of my properties in PI.
[url]http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/world/view/20090128-185981/7-dead-in-suspected-LA-murder-suicide[/url]
7 dead in suspected LA murder-suicide
Agence France-Presse
First Posted 04:34:00 01/28/2009
Filed Under: Crime and Law and Justice, Murder, Suicide
Close this LOS ANGELES -- A father who may have recently been fired from his job shot dead his wife and five young children on Tuesday in a gruesome mass slaying, police in Los Angeles said.
A Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD) spokeswoman said the family of seven was found dead at a home in the suburb of Wilmington south of Los Angeles.
Police believe the man killed his family and then committed suicide. The identities of the dead have not been released.
"Right now we're investigating if the father killed his wife and five kids and then turned the revolver on himself and killed himself," LAPD Deputy Chief Ken Garner told KFWB radio.
Garner said police were originally contacted by a local television station, which apparently received a telephone call and a fax from a man saying he was going to kill his family and himself.
Garner said the fax indicated the man may have recently lost his job. According to the radio station, the dead included an eight-year-old girl, five-year-old twin girls and two-year-old twin boys.
The Los Angeles region has seen several high-profile mass shootings in recent months.
In December, a gunman dressed as Santa Claus stormed into the home of his former in-laws on Christmas Eve and opened fire on his ex-wife and her family before setting the house alight.
Nine people were killed in the rampage before the gunman took his own life.
Last October, a 45-year-old man shot his wife, three children and mother-in-law before killing himself, reportedly because of financial woes.
[QUOTE=Daddy Warbucks 1]Shit hitting home mom dukes even told me her company laying off. Only thing I could offer was to leave her dead beat (no job/money having mother fucker) husband and come live in one of my properties in PI.
[url]http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/world/view/20090128-185981/7-dead-in-suspected-LA-murder-suicide[/url]
7 dead in suspected LA murder-suicide
Agence France-Presse
First Posted 04:34:00 01/28/2009
Filed Under: Crime and Law and Justice, Murder, Suicide
Close this LOS ANGELES -- A father who may have recently been fired from his job shot dead his wife and five young children on Tuesday in a gruesome mass slaying, police in Los Angeles said.
A Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD) spokeswoman said the family of seven was found dead at a home in the suburb of Wilmington south of Los Angeles.
Police believe the man killed his family and then committed suicide. The identities of the dead have not been released.
"Right now we're investigating if the father killed his wife and five kids and then turned the revolver on himself and killed himself," LAPD Deputy Chief Ken Garner told KFWB radio.
Garner said police were originally contacted by a local television station, which apparently received a telephone call and a fax from a man saying he was going to kill his family and himself.
Garner said the fax indicated the man may have recently lost his job. According to the radio station, the dead included an eight-year-old girl, five-year-old twin girls and two-year-old twin boys.
The Los Angeles region has seen several high-profile mass shootings in recent months.
In December, a gunman dressed as Santa Claus stormed into the home of his former in-laws on Christmas Eve and opened fire on his ex-wife and her family before setting the house alight.
Nine people were killed in the rampage before the gunman took his own life.
Last October, a 45-year-old man shot his wife, three children and mother-in-law before killing himself, reportedly because of financial woes.[/QUOTE]
I could say "certain" people fear being among the "Poor".
Sorry to hear about your moms, mine is basically retired and my stepfather retired from the City of LA almost 15 years ago.
Could I "rent" one of your PI properties? lol
Thats Sick news..Dont you guys in America have unemployment benifit..why not just live on benifit for some days and come back to work when things improve...
I think the motive is different ?
[QUOTE=DJ FourMoney]I could say "certain" people fear being among the "Poor".
Sorry to hear about your moms, mine is basically retired and my stepfather retired from the City of LA almost 15 years ago.
Could I "rent" one of your PI properties? lol[/QUOTE]
DJ hell with the prices of houses in the US sinking like the Titanic I might be moving back to the States sooner then I think to take advantage of this situation.
All you guys still in the States should only be seeing dollars signs with stocks hanging at record low share prices.
Sure you can rent one if I have not sold both of them and moved back to the States which I am thinking of doing next year. Hey I thought you didn’t like Asian girls :confused:
[QUOTE=Born Loser 5]Thats Sick news..Dont you guys in America have unemployment benifit..why not just live on benifit for some days and come back to work when things improve...
I think the motive is different ?[/QUOTE]@450 max a week and minus taxes, can you live on that in calif?
[QUOTE=Daddy Warbucks 1]DJ hell with the prices of houses in the US sinking like the Titanic I might be moving back to the States sooner then I think to take advantage of this situation.
All you guys still in the States should only be seeing dollars signs with stocks hanging at record low share prices.
Sure you can rent one if I have not sold both of them and moved back to the States which I am thinking of doing next year. Hey I thought you didn’t like Asian girls :confused:[/QUOTE]
I wish it were that simple Warbucks. The share prices are low for good reasons. From across the Pacific it may look like the US stock and housing markets are big wet pussies waiting to get fucked by someone with lots of war bucks but you should be very hesitant to return anytime in the near future. We may very well see things go lower. Don't hold all those war bucks in greenbacks either.
I'm a bit surprised to hear that you're willing to give up all that fine Third World pussy, property and the good life on the cheap in order to come back to the rat race and "free" pussy. I can't help but wonder how you'll make it pass the pussy withdrawal phase you'll experience upon your return.
Actually, you can still find some fine looking Asian pussy here in the US without too much trouble. One of the Asia mongers gave me a tip on how to crack the local market and I've been indulging ever since. Anyway, without regard to the pussy supply you still have to consider that you'll be returning to a country filled with desperate friends and relatives who have lost jobs or taken pay cuts. They'll be looking at Warbucks to save them with his fat pockets. These days you can hardly walk across the parking lot without being stopped by at least two beggars. I used to be under the impression that Third World countries had more beggars than the US, I am no longer sure of that.
[QUOTE=Daddy Warbucks 1]DJ hell with the prices of houses in the US sinking like the Titanic I might be moving back to the States sooner then I think to take advantage of this situation.
All you guys still in the States should only be seeing dollars signs with stocks hanging at record low share prices.
Sure you can rent one if I have not sold both of them and moved back to the States which I am thinking of doing next year. Hey I thought you didn’t like Asian girls :confused:[/QUOTE]
I do like them to a degree, I like all women. I can make PI work... ;) Boy is it cheap holly hell...
[QUOTE=Chocha Monger]I wish it were that simple Warbucks. The share prices are low for good reasons. From across the Pacific it may look like the US stock and housing markets are big wet pussies waiting to get fucked by someone with lots of war bucks but you should be very hesitant to return anytime in the near future. We may very well see things go lower. Don't hold all those war bucks in greenbacks either.
I'm a bit surprised to hear that you're willing to give up all that fine Third World pussy, property and the good life on the cheap in order to come back to the rat race and "free" pussy. I can't help but wonder how you'll make it pass the pussy withdrawal phase you'll experience upon your return.
Actually, you can still find some fine looking Asian pussy here in the US without too much trouble. One of the Asia mongers gave me a tip on how to crack the local market and I've been indulging ever since. Anyway, without regard to the pussy supply you still have to consider that you'll be returning to a country filled with desperate friends and relatives who have lost jobs or taken pay cuts. They'll be looking at Warbucks to save them with his fat pockets. These days you can hardly walk across the parking lot without being stopped by at least two beggars. I used to be under the impression that Third World countries had more beggars than the US, I am no longer sure of that.[/QUOTE]
How can I put this? I am in my late 20s. I have no life here besides spending time with my LTR. This becomes boring after a while. The expat community consists of nothing but old chip on both shoulders white man. I am a relatively young black hip hopper. I miss my fam/homeboys. I miss riding in my classic with the music thumping. I miss the sub-culture that is hip hop. I miss the food. While my life here in the Philippines is good most of the pussy consists of prostitutes. This becomes boring and depressing after a while. Sometime I ask myself questions like is it this it? Prostitutes and sleep for the rest of your life?
Then there are the normal girls that are not hooking who in most cases look much better then the prostitutes. Most have the mind set of children. They are also broke for the most part and even if you managed to bag one it would be another form of prostitution. The second thing is they are hard to get rid of and have tendency to become financial burdens. Also I am in a relationship already so the time and effort it takes to cultivate "side" relationships I can’t "afford" it.
The rich girls would not be caught at a funeral with a black guy. There is the racism thing which I am not going to go into. Yes there is racism everywhere but when you are a black expat it takes on a whole new meaning.
Then there is the third eye factor. What I mean by this is in the Philippines everyone is looking to rip you off so you need a damn near third eye or clairvoyance to avoid it all. You let your guard down and whoose you are out of a certain amount of Pesos.
If I did move back to the States it would not be forever. Just until I spend up my youth and to take advantage of this housing market and stock prices but I would still hold some properties over here in PI as I am starting to believe it is a great country for OLD Men which at this point I am not.
As for my begging family I still get emails and request for money so I know it would be a lot worse if I was within driving distance.
A man cannot live on pussy alone.
All you guys out there one love and take care….
Wow, daddy W,
You seem tired. Don't give up, there's so many good things in life to be enjoyed, sometimes you just need to think properly and you can get a new way of seeing things.
May the force be with you!
Warbucks,
After reading your concise but poignant narrative of your life in the Philippines I can now understand your desire to return to the USA. Prior to your response I couldn’t fathom how a youth with money in his pockets could languish in a veritable tropical paradise of cheap sex. It seems that every Eden is not without its serpent. In yours it’s the racism and scams. These blights are by no means absent at home but perhaps you have come to tolerate, perhaps even expect, them at home.
It is true one cannot subsist on pussy alone. In fact one can learn to live without it as I discovered after having to make do without for an entire year during military service. However, it is still a nice luxury when it is readily available at a bargain. Which brings me to the question of what will become of your LTR upon your return to the US?
While the Philippines may indeed be a country for old men, the US can hardly be considered a country for young men. Worthwhile jobs are in short supply and you need years of experience to get into one. Sometimes I wonder how they expect young workers to gain experience if no one wants to give them a chance in the first place. I wouldn’t expound on the pussy situation here at home because volumes of testimony already exist in the American Women thread.
I hope that your plans to exploit the stock and housing markets pay off but it’s good to see that you’re not putting all of your eggs into that basket. As you look towards home I look abroad for fortune. Pining for a taste of Americana has never been an issue for me while abroad. I’ve had to be away from family and friends for work over such a long period that it no longer bothers me to be away. However, in the beginning I felt much as you do now.
At the end of it all the crux of the matter is whether or not you are happy. You certainly don’t seem happy in the Philippines, so coming home for a while may be what you need. Prolonged contact with foreign cultures and prostitutes has a way of burning some guys out. At your age you’re fortune to have had the exposure. Now you’re forming your own sense of balance.
DW1..
I thought we would be tagging the PH...hehehe ;)
There is a very very serious threat to American economy in coming months.
Must read article before investing even a single penny.
[url]http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=12265[/url]
[url]http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/schoon/2009/0213.html[/url]
[url]http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/2009/0213b.html[/url]
[url]http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/willie/2009/0213.html[/url]
Good Luck
[QUOTE=Chocha Monger]Warbucks,
After reading your concise but poignant narrative of your life in the Philippines I can now understand your desire to return to the USA. Prior to your response I couldn’t fathom how a youth with money in his pockets could languish in a veritable tropical paradise of cheap sex. It seems that every Eden is not without its serpent. In yours it’s the racism and scams. These blights are by no means absent at home but perhaps you have come to tolerate, perhaps even expect, them at home. [/QUOTE]
Tropical Paradise: Not Quite… VS States
The Philippines is not a tropical paradise. It is simply a place where there are not a lot of jobs, low wages and a lot of people want to live above their means and will try to do it by any means necessary. I mean when I was broke as hell a couple of years ago back in the States I acted accordingly. I didn’t have $1000 cell phone and other goodies as I see people in PI who live in squatter areas but have such toys. I am not oblivious to the lack of opportunities for the average Filipino but it’s not as bad here as per say other places I have visited... Afghanistan.
As for the cheap sex I don’t want to go into specifics (don’t like to discuss my financial situation as I am often of accused of being a braggart or insecure) but I can afford escorts back in USA if that’s what I want. The girlfriend experience might be missing but do we really want to snuggle and cuddle with prostitutes and I am getting tired of that whole scene.
I monger now just out of pure boredom. I often find myself in Dubai/Manila with nothing but time on my hands what is a guy to do? You go out….girls that are not bad looking come offering sex….you go on auto pilot.
In regards to the non WGS most have financial obligations to their families and will never hesitate to ask a new found “boyfriend” for assistance. I read one guy on here where he was giving $500 a month to a Filipina’s family with whom he was not married with. For me that is madness.
Racism and Scams In PI: VS In The States
As for the racism the stares, the strange comments made by people while you just minding your business. The looks at you then burst of laughter. Keep in mind I don’t dress strange or ridiculous compared to the “get ups” I see here. I am late 20s muscular built… so what could they be laughing at? Had a girl call me “uling” while I was at the beach last year? Translated into English it means charcoal. Keep in mind though I am dark I am not as dark as your average native African.
I have been in and out of PI for last 5 and I have never seen a Black guy with Filipina who was cute non-working girl and had her shit together. Like got her own money. In my experience most of the Black guys are courting poor (educational and financial wise) provincial (country side) girls or WGs. I met my ole lady in Japan back in 04 so things were different. She was independent.
Scams: Police looking for handouts, Security guards looking for handouts. Taxi drivers over-charging or driving around to up the fair. One night while out parting I had a little bit too much to drink and had my mind on only on the ass and tits sitting next to me in this taxi. Gave the driver a little too much Pesos. You think he said something? Hell no. It was the WG who told the taxi driver “What are you doing?”
I have airport officials come up to me and try to get money by doing me special favors and when you wave them away they look offended. Officials in the Philippines are not the type of people you want to [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140][CodeWord140][/url] off.
I have never had any of the above happen to me in the States.
[QUOTE=Chocha Monger]
It is true one cannot subsist on pussy alone. In fact one can learn to live without it as I discovered after having to make do without for an entire year during military service. However, it is still a nice luxury when it is readily available at a bargain. Which brings me to the question of what will become of your LTR upon your return to the US? [/QUOTE]
Yes pussy on demand is nice to have. But when it comes from prostitutes day in and out is it really that great? My LTR? Is a goldmine in terms of trustworthiness, friendship and beauty. I wouldn’t dare leave her to fend for herself in PI but I am reluctant to get married again after being married in the States so….at this point don’t know?
[QUOTE=Chocha Monger]
While the Philippines may indeed be a country for old men, the US can hardly be considered a country for young men. Worthwhile jobs are in short supply and you need years of experience to get into one. Sometimes I wonder how they expect young workers to gain experience if no one wants to give them a chance in the first place. I wouldn’t expound on the pussy situation here at home because volumes of testimony already exist in the American Women thread. [/QUOTE]
Jobs, Retirement Etc....: PI VS States
Yes if I stay here in PI I can retire by 2012. By that time I would be in my early 30s. If I go back to the States I probably would have to work nother 15 years.
Pussy: In States
I would never date in the States again as I am sure a finding an American woman compatible with me would be extremely difficult given my tenure overseas.
[QUOTE=Chocha Monger]
I hope that your plans to exploit the stock and housing markets pay off but it’s good to see that you’re not putting all of your eggs into that basket. As you look towards home I look abroad for fortune. Pining for a taste of Americana has never been an issue for me while abroad. I’ve had to be away from family and friends for work over such a long period that it no longer bothers me to be away. However, in the beginning I felt much as you do now. [/QUOTE]
I would only like to buy a couple of properties while the price is low and just wait until they increase but given things are so fucked up in the States right now that can be 1 or 20 years from now.
Yeah home sickness sets in from time to time. Being surrounded by people who don’t look like you or understand you can take it its toll. I try to keep in touch with things like Vonage and yearly trips back but it’s not same. I moved here only because of a Visa situation not to monger. Funny how things work out.
[QUOTE=Chocha Monger]At the end of it all the crux of the matter is whether or not you are happy. You certainly don’t seem happy in the Philippines, so coming home for a while may be what you need. Prolonged contact with foreign cultures and prostitutes has a way of burning some guys out. At your age you’re fortune to have had the exposure. Now you’re forming your own sense of balance. [/QUOTE]
Sometimes I am happy here. Sometimes I am not. Same as when I lived in the States. 2010 will be a critical year for me in terms of what I will decide to do…
Thanks CM for the post. You are one of the few guys on ISG no matter what thread I always enjoy your post
[QUOTE=Born Loser 5]DW1..
I thought we would be tagging the PH...hehehe ;)
[/QUOTE]
I will be around for while.
No place on earth it completely perfect and there's a whole host of things one has to consider.
America is unique in that there's no place like it.
There are more destitute places like you mentioned like most of the middle east, pussy is not enough to move there. In fact for men I think pussy is quite far down on the list of things needed to survive.
PH sounds like a less than ideal place if you aren't Asian or White. If you want Flip pussy, you can find it right here in Southern California quite easily, no need to venture to PH for it.
South America can't be any better as most of the Afro-South Americans are segregated to grungy parts of town usually in major cities, which shows how much empathy they have for those of African roots compared to those of European roots.
Even though this is not a the AW forum it does have to do with politics in the sense that (here's the tie in) what your local, state and federal governments are doing effects your quality of life.
Chocha brings up the point that I have known for years but wondered if anybody else noticed it and that's the reluctance of US corp (white collar) companies to give people entry level jobs that pay a decent wage (without a degree), forcing many people, even college grads into the Services industry where high productivity and low wages are the norm.
I'm drawn to places like Scandinavia; as far as I can tell Racism isn't overt for one thing, but generally the natives don't have that much of a problem with interracial relationships as there is a very small population of Africans and Americans.
A country like Germany is used to a US Military presents and most people are comfortable with Americans in Germany, especially cites located next to current and former bases.
These countries while some might say I'm looking for a "free ride" that is not the case at all. Most of these countries do not have the military power to invade another country thousands of miles away. The social "safety net" prevents wide spread poverty and has a well informed, educated and healthy population.
They are not without their own problems and they have a very high protectionism in their labor market, making it hard to crack unless you know somebody, marry a national, know the language and have some skill that can't be filled by a local which is a tactic many US based Multi-national companies use to keep English as the main language used on campus. I lack the college degree to qualify for most of those jobs, so I would automatically have to hustle, which for me means DJ'ing I would guess I'm not one for criminal activity.
That means living abroad is not really a reality, its more of a fantasy at this point and time.
But at least fooling with education, health care and other social issues are largely off-limits even to the most conservative political parties as they would find themselves quickly out of office by the time the elections came up again if they for example cut or stopped National Health Care.
Anyway I guess if I had to live someplace, it would be Western Europe, its expensive but its close enough to American Culture to be tolerable long term.
The key would be either finding those infatuated American culture or expats and you can find those people all over Western Europe, plus there's always Britain and flights back to the US are reasonable enough to return every year.
I can totally understand Daddy even if Ph is dirt cheap (and it is) low rent pussy is a turn-off long term and you have little in common with them.
It’s been three years since I lived in America and over a year since I set foot on its shores. But it’s still home…. What I want to ask what the fuck is up with all these mass shooting and killings? Anybody got any info on what is causing this? Could it be stress or overall dissatisfaction with the American way?
[QUOTE=Illogic]It’s been three years since I lived in America and over a year since I set foot on its shores. But it’s still home…. What I want to ask what the fuck is up with all these mass shooting and killings? Anybody got any info on what is causing this? Could it be stress or overall dissatisfaction with the American way?[/QUOTE]Guns + social pressures + distraught people = depressing headlines
[QUOTE=Illogic]It’s been three years since I lived in America and over a year since I set foot on its shores. But it’s still home…. What I want to ask what the fuck is up with all these mass shooting and killings? Anybody got any info on what is causing this? Could it be stress or overall dissatisfaction with the American way?[/QUOTE]
I think that it is an overall dissatisfaction with the American way of life. The New York shooting was basically about an immigrant coming to terms with the reality of having to learn English and coping with job loss. Our country exports pipe dreams to developing countries via Hollywood. When immigrants arrive to our shores, especially poorly educated ones, they expect to live the good life shown in the movies. Most of them are quickly disabused of their dreams of finding heaven on Earth. They quickly settle into a life of constant struggle with the language, customs, discrimination and low paying jobs. Some make it but others don't. In this case the one that didn't make it decided to take others with him instead of going home quietly or resigning himself to a life of American poverty.
The Alabama shooting was about a good ole boy gone bad. He decided to kill Ma and Pa because they'd done him wrong. After running an extermination service on his relations he decided to target random strangers for some reason. Job loss and financial issues appear to have been part of this individual's background also.
The father murdering his children was basically taking out his rage, provoked by his wife's cheating, on the children.
Anyway, murdering as many people as possible then committing suicide seems to be the way many are choosing to resolve their problems in this country. The concept isn't really new if you look at the last 15 years or so.
5 dead in Alabama murder-suicide
Agence France-Presse
First Posted 08:10:00 04/08/2009
Filed Under: Murder, Suicide
MIAMI – A gunman shot dead his wife, daughter and two other people before killing himself, reports said Tuesday, the latest in a series of recent murder-suicides that have shocked America.
The body of Kevin Garner, 45, was found Tuesday near the home he formerly shared with his estranged wife in Morgan County, Alabama.
Law enforcement agents said Garner had earlier gunned down his wife, his daughter a sister and her nephew in the town of Greenhill, reports said.
The killings came ahead of a divorce hearing between Garner and his wife Tammy due to take place on Wednesday.
Garner's sister had been due to testify on behalf of his estranged wife at the hearing, the Times Daily newspaper reported on its website.
The United States has been rocked by several fatal mass shootings in the past three weeks.
Last weekend, a man in Washington state shot dead his five children before killing himself after discovering his wife was leaving him.
On Saturday, three police officers were killed by a 23-year-old man at his home in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
The attack came a day after a recently unemployed man stormed an immigrant services center where he had been learning English in Binghamton, New York and went on a murderous rampage, killing 13 people before taking his own life.
On March 29, a heavily armed man shot dead eight people at a North Carolina nursing home, days after six people were killed in a murder-suicide in an upscale neighborhood in northern California's Silicon Valley.
And on March 10, an unemployed man killed his mother, grandmother and eight others on a vicious shooting rampage in Alabama.
[QUOTE=Chocha Monger]I think that it is an overall dissatisfaction with the American way of life. The New York shooting was basically about an immigrant coming to terms with the reality of having to learn English and coping with job loss. Our country exports pipe dreams to developing countries via Hollywood.[/QUOTE]Actually, if you read his entire letter, it is apparent that he was just totally batshit crazy.
He wasn't dissatisfied with American life. He was a Schizoid Psychopath.
‘Black man did it’ hoax sparks outrage
Pa. mother's abduction claim latest in string of false accusations
By JESSE WASHINGTON
AP National Writer
updated 5:14 p.m. CT, Mon., June 1, 2009
PHILADELPHIA - It's an old lie, claiming that The Black Man Did It.
But it was trotted out again last week when a white mother from suburban Philadelphia said two black men snatched her and her 9-year-old daughter from their SUV and abducted them in the trunk of a black Cadillac.
Blacks across the country were outraged after Bonnie Sweeten was found in a luxury hotel at Disney World. Authorities quickly unraveled the hoax, but not before an Amber Alert, frantic searches and national news coverage that played into images of marauding black men.
Racial boundaries are slowly dissolving in America, with President Barack Obama the most obvious example. Yet Sweeten's story, plus the killing of a black New York City cop by a white officer days later, was a reminder that old ideas remain burned into many minds both black and white.
Furious and disgusted
Sweeten's story has provoked an outpouring of discussion among blacks, everywhere from doctor's offices to blogs. Syndicated radio host Warren Ballentine said his listeners are "furious, and they're disgusted. ... On a scale of one to 10, it's a 15."
"Their hope was that by Obama becoming president, the rest of America would take a look at black Americans and look at us for who we are and not what a stereotype is," he said.
The Black Man Did It lie last made news as recently as October, when a John McCain volunteer claimed a 6-foot-4 black man carved a B into her cheek (For Barack, evidently). Charles Stuart told it in 1989 after he killed his wife in Boston. Susan Smith told it when she drowned her sons in 1994 in South Carolina. Unknown numbers of black men were hanged for it back when lynching was a common practice.
And those are the ones we heard about. Law professor Katheryn Russell-Brown documents 67 racial hoaxes in the period between 1987 and 1996 in her book "The Color of Crime."
So after Sweeten and her daughter were found in Florida, with local newspapers reporting an investigation of whether the 38-year-old woman embezzled large sums of money, many blacks felt not only angry, but resigned and frustrated.
"Here we go again," thought Add Seymour, an Atlanta resident who works in public relations for Morehouse College.
'Lynch mob mentality'
"Not only are people going to use us as the stereotypical crime problem of America, but the problem is people believe it so easily," he said. "It's a lynch mob mentality out there. ... The first thing you think of when it comes to crime is a black man. It's crazy, and it's unfair."
It's also rooted in a confusing mixture of psychology, statistics and sociology, amplified by the media's tendency to focus on crimes against white women.
Seymour's blood starts to boil whenever people lock their car doors as he walks by — yet even blacks sometimes hit that button when black men are in the vicinity. "It's not just white people who act that way," Seymour said.
Common sense or racism?
Raqiyah Mays, a radio host on Kiss FM in New York City, drew a parallel between the Sweetney hoax and the killing of a black cop last week who was shot by a white policeman. The black officer was running after a suspect, his gun drawn.
"How many times have you seen a black man running down the street and thought something negative? As opposed to seeing a white guy running down the street and you think he's running late?" said Mays, who is black. "A lot of us are guilty of it because that's the way society has been set up."
One easy explanation is that black men are convicted of crimes at much higher rates than any other group. So was falling for Sweeten's lie racism, or common sense? And does Sweeten's blond hair have anything to do with the amount of media coverage her story received?
Media coverage questioned
New York Times columnist Bob Herbert recently wrote about the difference in coverage between the killing of a white female college student in Connecticut and the approximately three dozen Chicago public school students, mostly black, who have been killed this school year. He recalled an incident from early in his career, at another newspaper, when he heard an editor pondering the story of a dead child ask, "What color is that baby?"
"Editors may not be asking, `What color is that victim?' But, on some level, they're still thinking it," Herbert wrote.
Even without race, Sweeten's story was both sensational and nonsensical. It began when she called police, allegedly from a trunk, and said men had rear-ended her Yukon Denali at a busy suburban intersection, then abducted her and her daughter in broad daylight.
No one had seen it happen, and Sweeten somehow still had her cell phone. Black men also are scarce in Bucks County, which is 92 percent white and 4 percent black.
Authorities discovered that Sweeten had made the call from miles away, in downtown Philadelphia. Their attention turned to the airport, and Sweeten was soon found. She is free on $1 million bail, facing misdemeanor charges of identity theft and false reporting.
During a news conference after the hoax was exposed, Bucks County District Attorney Michelle Henry explained the charge of filing a false police report.
"It's a terrifying thing," she said, "for a community to hear that two black men in a black Cadillac grabbed a woman and her daughter."
[QUOTE=DirkDingy]1. No, everything is not about money;however, there is a positive correlation between money, wealth, power, and beautiful women.
For most men, money is the easiest thing to get to attract hot women.
In the 2nd and 3rd world, the trappings of wealth make up about 85%-100% of the equation; in the first world, between 30%-80% of the equation. It's not so much about the Range Rover but about financial stability and security.
To argue the contrary is asinine and unfruitful.
2. Not to be too snoobish, but, all college degrees are not the same--just as all boats are not the same. You could have a yaht and I could have a dinghy. We both have boats (or ships) but they are not of comparable quality.
The military draws a disportionate number of its officers from the lower middle class folk of the South who do not attend elite schools. I am not knocking anyone, I am just stating a fact. I take my hat off to those who serve and thank them for their service.
I think that all men who are fit and not COs should serve.
3. The vast majority of KBR type contracctors in war zones could not have a profesional career in the States or the developed world. KBR mostly looks for warm bodies. The quality of people is fairly low.
Military experience is not necessary to work for a KBR type firm--a pulse and non-felonious record is.
Most middle and upper class Americans will not work for and live under the conditions that KBR type people do in conflict zones. Some should, as one can make some major bank, but most won't.
The few that do are mostly adventerists, wonderlusts, or want to get the fuck away from their wives.
4. Yes, one can be a lower class dirtbag with money. One can also be a well edcuated and rich person with little class, but the former is more prevalent than the latter. A prime example that I recently observed was in Bishkek--KBR type Americans making 68k-80k a year who were uneducated, unsophisticated, and classless who turned off the local population en masse.
Not all of these guys are dirtbags, but too many of them are.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.simplyhired.com/a/salary/search/q-college+graduate[/url]
Average College Graduate Salaries
In USD as of Jul 17, 2009
college graduate
$46,000
Compare college graduate Salaries
Job Title, Keywords
City, State or ZipAverage College Graduate Salaries
The average salary for college graduate jobs is $46,000. Average college graduate salaries can vary greatly due to company, location, industry, experience and benefits.
This salary was calculated using the average salary for all jobs with the term "college graduate" anywhere in the job listing.
Average Salary of Jobs with Related Titles
In USD as of Jul 17, 2009
$65,000
budget analyst
$55,000
human resources specialist
$56,000
contract specialist
$55,000
secretary
$33,000
accountant
$47,000
usar unit administrator
$35,000
management analyst
$58,000
it specialist
$66,000
program analyst
$64,000
civil engineer
$58,000
mission support specialist
$48,000
Conflict Jobs: Average Salaries based on my four years around a conflict. From many friends and people I know involved with these jobs.
KBR: $80,000
Dynacorp: $120,0000
Aecom: $120,000
Mantech: $180,000
MPRI: $200,000
So you see the private (college degree required) professional sector pales in comparison to the average contracting job.
I think most people would like to make the most money possible. So you can buy Porsches and other deprecating bull to impress some broad :confused:
I got friends who finished college and now are working in the States they have decent jobs (some have two jobs) but their lives suck. No trips abroad no real-estate possessions etc…
Now with these contracting jobs, job security is an issue but in this economic climate the professional sector also has been decimated.
One guy would have you believe all you need is a pulse to land one of these jobs. That is true if you plan to work in a kitchen or cleaning bathrooms. The reality is though most of the guys that contract had professional gigs back in their own countries, IT, HR, Mechanics, Logistics, HVAC, Estimators etc….. And they just took the contracting jobs because of the bump in salary.
Conflict Zones Conditions: No Working Over Here Is Not For Pussies
Also working in a conflict zone does not mean you are low class or a loser.
The conditions: Free meals all day. 24 hour free access to gyms. Free housing. (Climated control containers or "wooden huts" which you share with 1-8 others) Dust, heat, cold and boredom.
Danger? Depends on exactly where in the conflict country you are located. All bases and all areas are not created equal.
dirtbag
One entry found.
Main Entry: dirt·bag
Pronunciation: \ˈdərt-ˌbag\
Function: noun
Date: circa 1967
slang : a dirty, unkempt, or contemptible person
A Dirt bag:
Now what I would call a dirt bag is the guy who has a a great deal of money in the bank or a great job but never fails to kick down the less fortunate or others he “feels” is beneath him. Makes false comments or comments about things he knows nothing about or insults members of a forum for no reason.
[QUOTE=Illogic][url]http://www.simplyhired.com/a/salary/search/q-college+graduate[/url]
Conflict Jobs: Average Salaries based on my four years around a conflict. From many friends and people I know involved with these jobs.
KBR: $80,000
Dynacorp: $120,0000
Aecom: $120,000
Mantech: $180,000
MPRI: $200,000.[/QUOTE]Illogic,
You are basing Averages vs Individual salaries. I can easily find a lot of IT workers who would say they make over 100K. Especially in cities like LA and NY.
You are comparing a Government pure survey against YOUR OWN small sampling. You have no LARGE scale knowledge of contract salaries. You only know the salary where you were located or your small sampling of friends.
The Government Survey would include pay in areas like in small rural cities like in North and south Dakota, Wyoming, Iowa where anyone making 20K can live good. So if a college grad made 35K. He would be considered almost wealthy for those communities. So He is getting paid good for where he lives. Which brings down the national avgs.
Do you know what these companies pay contractors for the same job in every place. So your comparisons are not fair.
[QUOTE=Thatguy865]Illogic,
You are basing Averages vs Individual salaries. I can easily find a lot of IT workers who would say they make over 100K. Especially in cities like LA and NY.
You are comparing a Government pure survey against YOUR OWN small sampling. You have no LARGE scale knowledge of contract salaries. You only know the salary where you were located or your small sampling of friends.
The Government Survey would include pay in areas like in small rural cities like in North and south Dakota, Wyoming, Iowa where anyone making 20K can live good. So if a college grad made 35K. He would be considered almost wealthy for those communities. So He is getting paid good for where he lives. Which brings down the national avgs.
Do you know what these companies pay contractors for the same job in every place. So your comparisons are not fair.[/QUOTE]
These are not invidividals salaries. The lowest contractor worker makes about $60K. The highest about $200K do the math.
Once again while life over there is not great being poor in America is not so great either.
[QUOTE=Illogic]These are not invidividals salaries. The lowest contractor worker makes about $60K. The highest about $200K do the math.
Once again while life over there is not great being poor in America is not so great either.[/QUOTE]Its all about how you want to live your life ... and just because you don't contract overseas doesn't mean the other alternative is being poor in America. Even with that, there are a lot of poor people, who still are quite happy. Not everyone judges their happiness by material wealth.
There are a lot of people who feel as long as they can put food in the stomach, have a roof over their head and the love of family and friends they wouldn't trade it for anything.
The places where people live the longest are not the most wealthest of locations. But where the people surrounded themselves with family and friends and work throughout their lives.
Its often the wealthest of people who are the most isolated, with the fewest of true friends.
[QUOTE=Thatguy865]
and just because you don't contract overseas doesn't mean the other alternative is being poor in America. [/QUOTE]
For some guys not contracting the alternative is being poor. That Blue collar market is drying up in America. College degrees are becoming more and more of a necessity to make a decent living. Now here is the problem some people just don’t have the brain power to succeed in college. So what will be left for them? To stay under the yolk of the aristocratic American society until they die?
Before I started contracting I had nothing. Now I own a modest home and luxury condo. I have walked around downtown Tokyo with diamonds on shinning like the sun getting smiled at by cute Japanese girls. I have stayed in 5 star hotels in various countries. Flew first class on various airlines. To some who parents were able to pass them down an education or money this stuff is not a big deal but for a sad few of us these things may have never been possible.
[QUOTE=Thatguy865]Even with that, there are a lot of poor people, who still are quite happy. Not everyone judges their happiness by material wealth. [/QUOTE]
I was poor all my life I know how that shit feels to need shit not want but “need” but can’t get it because you don’t have the financial means. Besides being maimed my only fear is being poor again.
[QUOTE=Thatguy865]There are a lot of people who feel as long as they can put food in the stomach, have a roof over their head and the love of family and friends they wouldn't trade it for anything. [/QUOTE]
Fuck a friend and as for family well… I think this overrated.
[QUOTE=Thatguy865]Its often the wealthest of people who are the most isolated, with the fewest of true friends. [/QUOTE]
I guess this is true.
Illogic,
What you and Dirk are saying is hard to accept for a lot of people. Friends and family is nice to have. But in America if it isn't about money then it don't mean shit!
If you have money you'll always have friends but not the other way around. I wish things were different but that's reality.
[QUOTE=Chocha Monger]Illogic,
What you and Dirk are saying is hard to accept for a lot of people. Friends and family is nice to have. But in America if it isn't about money then it don't mean shit!
If you have money you'll always have friends but not the other way around. I wish things were different but that's reality.[/QUOTE]That is utter nonsense. If there is one thing that brings people together is poverty. The more money you have the less friends you have. You go to any poor neighborhood, everyone knows everyone. Neighbors are almost like families. Now take the reverse. Go to a wealthy neighborhood, next door neighbors won't know the first thing about each other outside of what they look like. There is no relationship between them. Maybe the kids. But definitely not the adults.
Yeah the media hypes wealth, so people are brainwashed to chase it. But what most people come to realize as they acquire it. All that materialism doesn't mean a dam thing, if you don't have friends and people to share your life.
Illogic. If walking around with diamonds having people gawk at you is what turns you on. Well so be it. But I think as you get older and wiser, you will come to learn that all that doesn't mean nothing. So you stay in 5 star hotels and others may stay in holiday Inn. They both have beds and TVs. So your sheet had a higher thread count. Whippy do. You've been caught up in the hype of materialism and some day you might realize it ain't all that. For every sad poor person, there is a equally sad rich person. Its just not as obvious to see.
I'm not trying to start an arguement. But just pointing out another point of view.
You say you don't need friends. Well I know plenty of people who wouldn't want to have all you have if it meant having to leave their friends. Especially to live in a foreign country isolated, regardless whether it was a gated community with all the upscale ammenities. For some have the feeling of that show "Cheers" walking into a bar where everyone knows your name, is a feeling that a lot of people cherish.
As I said before obviously no one wants to be starving. But once you have the basic needs, food, clothing, shelter. You basic vehicle to get around. The rest is just about trying to "show boat" and boosting ones self esteem thru materialism.
[QUOTE=Thatguy865]That is utter nonsense. If there is one thing that brings people together is poverty. The more money you have the less friends you have. You go to any poor neighborhood, everyone knows everyone. Neighbors are almost like families. Now take the reverse. Go to a wealthy neighborhood, next door neighbors won't know the first thing about each other outside of what they look like. There is no relationship between them. Maybe the kids. But definitely not the adults.
Yeah the media hypes wealth, so people are brainwashed to chase it. But what most people come to realize as they acquire it. All that materialism doesn't mean a dam thing, if you don't have friends and people to share your life.
Illogic. If walking around with diamonds having people gawk at you is what turns you on. Well so be it. But I think as you get older and wiser, you will come to learn that all that doesn't mean nothing. So you stay in 5 star hotels and others may stay in holiday Inn. They both have beds and TVs. So your sheet had a higher thread count. Whippy do. You've been caught up in the hype of materialism and some day you might realize it ain't all that. For every sad poor person, there is a equally sad rich person. Its just not as obvious to see.
I'm not trying to start an arguement. But just pointing out another point of view.
You say you don't need friends. Well I know plenty of people who wouldn't want to have all you have if it meant having to leave their friends. Especially to live in a foreign country isolated, regardless whether it was a gated community with all the upscale ammenities. For some have the feeling of that show "Cheers" walking into a bar where everyone knows your name, is a feeling that a lot of people cherish.
As I said before obviously no one wants to be starving. But once you have the basic needs, food, clothing, shelter. You basic vehicle to get around. The rest is just about trying to "show boat" and boosting ones self esteem thru materialism.[/QUOTE]
Thaguy, here I agree with you 100%
I also don't know what is the actual advantage walking around with diamonds. Most people would not care, some will envy or hate this person, and some will wanna have piece of it. But nobody will love more him for that for sure. Unless he shares the diamonds:)
One millionaire friend in Russia when got married, he immediately acquired a bunch of new "loving relatives and friends". After one year they finally pissed him off enough, one even stole from him 10K, so the couple ended all relationship with the wife's relatives. Even she had to end her relationship with her farther and mother... It's good to be wealthy, but not that simple sometimes.
You mentioned that in wealthier neighborhoods people do not know each other. In another forum you were wondering why people move to 3rd World countries - one of the reason people are more social there. In my place in USA I have no idea about my neighbors except one, simply because he is foreign. And we can drink, get drunk and talk about anything freely. I told him a lot about this website and what people do here, it looks like I'm taking him to Brazil soon.
[QUOTE=Thatguy865]All that materialism doesn't mean a dam thing, if you don't have friends and people to share your life.[/QUOTE]I can't agree more!
[QUOTE=Thatguy865] Yeah the media hypes wealth, so people are brainwashed to chase it. But what most people come to realize as they acquire it. All that materialism doesn't mean a dam thing, if you don't have friends and people to share your life. [/QUOTE]
Trust me I am better off without the dysfunctional family and pseudo friends I grew up with. I can’t understand people who are grown but still want to live around mom and pops . What do these guys go over and put their heads on their parents lap still?
[QUOTE=Thatguy865] Illogic. If walking around with diamonds having people gawk at you is what turns you on. Well so be it. [/QUOTE]
When you’re poor all your life money and jewelry does turn you on when you first get it. In the Ghetto where I grew up at the guy with the gold chain was the man and if you had diamonds real diamonds you were from another planet. It’s a showing of wealth and prosperity. It’s in-bred. It’s been over four years now since I have started making decent money so I am use to it now. I am not as boisterous as I was before.
[QUOTE=Thatguy865] But I think as you get older and wiser, you will come to learn that all that doesn't mean nothing. So you stay in 5 star hotels and others may stay in holiday Inn. They both have beds and TVs. So your sheet had a higher thread count. Whippy do. [/QUOTE]
Not quite. Have you have ever stayed in the flea bag hotels in the Philippines than stayed in a 5 star. Oh no they are not created equal.
[QUOTE=Thatguy865] You've been caught up in the hype of materialism and some day you might realize it ain't all that. For every sad poor person, there is a equally sad rich person. Its just not as obvious to see. [/QUOTE]
Working in the ME all these years I have finally realized money is not everything.
[QUOTE=Thatguy865] You say you don't need friends. Well I know plenty of people who wouldn't want to have all you have if it meant having to leave their friends. Especially to live in a foreign country isolated, regardless whether it was a gated community with all the upscale ammenities. For some have the feeling of that show "Cheers" walking into a bar where everyone knows your name, is a feeling that a lot of people cherish. [/QUOTE]
Again for me I didn’t have that positive influence of friends or family. To be honest TG I am really not a people person. I have read Machiavelli's book (The Prince) and his thoughts on human behavior still hold true to this day. People are generally untrustworthy and will turn on you at the drop of hat so what’s the point of having them in your circle.
[QUOTE=Thatguy865] As I said before obviously no one wants to be starving. But once you have the basic needs, food, clothing, shelter. You basic vehicle to get around. The rest is just about trying to "show boat" and boosting ones self esteem thru materialism.[/QUOTE]
So you are content with just living average, just getting by? Fuck that. To each his own.
[QUOTE=Goga Fung]Thaguy, here I agree with you 100%
I also don't know what is the actual advantage walking around with diamonds. Most people would not care, some will envy or hate this person, and some will wanna have piece of it. But nobody will love more him for that for sure. [/QUOTE]
How do you know? I had many people compliment me on my jewelry from Dubai to Tokyo. People like to invest in people who invest in themselves.
Upon this a question arises: whether it be better to be loved than feared or feared than loved? It may be answered that one should wish to be both, but, because it is difficult to unite them in one person, it is much safer to be feared than loved, when, of the two, either must be dispensed with. Because this is to be asserted in general of men, that they are ungrateful, fickle, false, cowardly, covetous, and as long as you succeed they are yours entirely; they will offer you their blood, property, life, and children, as is said above, when the need is far distant; but when it approaches they turn against you.
And that prince who, relying entirely on their promises, has neglected other precautions, is ruined; because friendships that are obtained by payments, and not by greatness or nobility of mind, may indeed be earned, but they are not secured, and in time of need cannot be relied upon; and men have less scruple in offending one who is beloved than one who is feared, for love is preserved by the link of obligation which, owing to the baseness of men, is broken at every opportunity for their advantage; but fear preserves you by a dread of punishment which never fails.- Niccolò Machiavelli
[QUOTE=Illogic]Trust me I am better off without the dysfunctional family and pseudo friends I grew up with. I can’t understand people who are grown but still want to live around mom and pops . What do these guys go over and put their heads on their parents lap still?
When you’re poor all your life money and jewelry does turn you on when you first get it. In the Ghetto where I grew up at the guy with the gold chain was the man and if you had diamonds real diamonds you were from another planet. It’s a showing of wealth and prosperity. It’s in-bred. It’s been over four years now since I have started making decent money so I am use to it now. I am not as boisterous as I was before.
Not quite. Have you have ever stayed in the flea bag hotels in the Philippines than stayed in a 5 star. Oh no they are not created equal.
Working in the ME all these years I have finally realized money is not everything.
Again for me I didn’t have that positive influence of friends or family. To be honest TG I am really not a people person. I have read Machiavelli book (The Prince) and his thoughts on human behavior still hold true to this day. People are generally untrustworthy and will turn on you at the drop of hat so what’s the point of having them in your circle.
So you are content with just living average, just getting by? Fuck that. To each his own.
How do you know? I had many people compliment me on my jewelry from Dubai to Tokyo. People like to invest in people who invest in themselves.[/QUOTE]
I to grew up poor both parents immigrants Mom could not speak English. Unforotunately we didnt know about the social system in Canada so we had it tough (fry dough 3 days a week). I LOVE giving money away in poor provincial towns in Rossiya to poor people. I probably give 70% of my money away. Blake is always ANGRY at me for doing this. Because I have easy access to money it doesnt mean a WHOLE lot to me. I definately dont wear BLING lots of jewlery. To me it expresses LOOK at me I WANT to be a some body I want attention. Christ thats the last thing I fiucking need. Besides I feel better KNOWING that the donation I made 20K in Modorvia for a tractor to a poor farmer, (3 beautifull young daughters) makes me FEEL better than buying a stupid flashy BLING to put around my neck. To each his own. The only passion I have is buying Tony Lama cowboy boots I have a great collection. In Rossiya even that stands out not many people wear cowboy boots. Yes I love my cowboy boots and chewing tobacco and listening to Garth Brooks life is great.
[QUOTE=Brian Moloney]I to grew up poor both parents immigrants Mom could not speak English. .[/QUOTE]
apparently english ain't your forte either:)
[url]http://www.cnn.com/2009/crime/08/27/tennessee.john.school/index.html?iref=mpstoryview[/url]
john schools' try to change attitudes about paid sexstory highlights
•experts say about 1 million to 2 million prostitutes work in the united states
•about 50 communities have programs that focus on deterring johns
•nashville's program includes a speech from a former prostitute
•the internet is making it easier for people to buy prostitutes, experts say
updated 12:10 p.m. edt, thu august 27, 2009next article in crime »
readmapby stephanie chen
cnn
nashville, tennessee (cnn) -- the accused came from all walks of life: retirees, dads and twentysomethings. an engineer, a business owner and an auto worker. a man in a wheelchair. men in need of spanish or farsi translators.
brett beasley, with nashville's health department, educates men arrested for trying to buy sex about stds.
1 of 2 about 40 men somberly entered a classroom on a recent saturday morning. about half of them wore shiny wedding bands.
all had tried to buy a prostitute's services and were caught by police. it was their first offense, and a county court referred them to a one-day program called the john school. it's a program run by volunteers and city officials in conjunction with magdalene house, a nonprofit that works to get prostitutes off the streets.
"prostitution doesn't discriminate," said kenny baker, a cognitive behavioral therapist who is the program's director. "most of these men don't have a prior criminal history, so our goal is to help these folks understand why they put themselves in a bad position, to prevent it from happening again."
set in a church in nashville, tennessee, the john school is led by former prostitutes, health experts, psychologists and law enforcement officers who talk to -- and at times berate -- the men about the risks of hiring a prostitute.
prostitution is based on the law of supply and demand. the thinking is: women won't stop selling sex until men stop buying.
so nashville and a growing number of cities are shifting their focus from locking up suppliers to educating buyers. across the country, about 50 communities are using john schools. atlanta, georgia, and baltimore, maryland, are among dozens more cities that plan to launch similar programs by the end of the year. see where the john schools are »
"it will make them [offenders] see that this is not a victimless crime, and they are contributing to the exploitation of women," said stephanie davis, policy adviser on women's issues at the mayor's office in atlanta. "it's hurting them, the man, and it's hurting their families and its hurting the community."
experts add that easy accessibility to prostitutes and pornography on the internet are feeding the problem.
in most communities, prostitution has been a one-sided battle focused on the women who offer sex. their customers, when they are arrested, are usually cited for a misdemeanor and fined.
by comparison, prostitutes are often charged with more severe sentences and jailed for months, depending on the offense.
but in nashville, the johns' faces are shown on a police web site.
for decades, nashville battled prostitution by arresting women on the streets and through stings. still, the problem persisted, irritating business owners and residents.
in the early 1990s, nashville's mayor helped launch the john school with the help of the magdalene house, public defenders, prosecutors and police officers. nashville became one of the first major cities in the u.s. to focus on the customers, predominantly men.
only first-time offenders who solicit an adult are eligible for john school. johns who pick up minors are not eligible and face much tougher sentences.
"if you get caught again and you get me, i will guarantee to put you in jail," warned antoinette welch, a local prosecutor, in speaking to the men in the class. "i've had men cry to me that they will lose their jobs or their wives, but you're all grown up and you make your own decisions."
the men listened carefully as welch talked about their records; many had not yet told their wives or significant others about their arrest.
if the john pleads guilty, pays a $250 fee and completes the course without re-offending, the charge can be dismissed after a year. the money paid by the john goes to magdalene house; the program doesn't cost taxpayers any money. john school models in other communities may differ.
a woman who called herself alexis, a 35-year-old former prostitute with dark hair and bright blue eyes, spoke to the men as the class came to an end. four years ago, she left the streets and now works at a factory.
by the age of 10, alexis had learned to barter with sex with her stepfather. in her 20s, she found herself hooked on drugs and selling her body. she was arrested more than 80 times. she was hospitalized after someone shot her on the job.
as she told her story, the men were silent. a few blushed, while others stared at the floor.
"these gentlemen are no different than i was on the streets," she said. "i think everyone has to look at the void they are trying to fill."
one john, a father of two with salt-and-pepper hair, found himself near tears after alexis spoke. in july, he tried to pick up a prostitute through craigslist. he said he was depressed and having problems with his wife.
"i'm so embarrassed," he said. "these girls are somebody's daughters. i have a daughter."
some evidence suggests that john schools are working. a study released in 2008 by abt associates inc. for the federal government looked at the john school program in san francisco, california. it's one of the largest programs in the country; more than 7,000 johns have attended since 1995.
according to the study, the re-arrest rate fell sharply after the school was launched, and stayed more than 30 percent lower for 10 years afterward.
but critics call john school a slap on the wrist. on saturday, one john abandoned the classroom.
carol leigh, a member of the sex workers outreach project, a group that promotes legalizing prostitution in california, said she doesn't believe the program is an effective deterrent. last year, she helped advocate on behalf of a law known as proposition k that would legalize prostitution in san fransisco. the proposal was rejected by the city.
"john school doesn't do that much," said leigh, who has worked as a prostitute. "the reality is they aren't spending that much time on the johns and they will just go to other venues. this also doesn't target the violent offenders who are the real problem."
melissa farley, head of the nonprofit group prostitution research and education in san fransisco, believes johns deserve stronger punishment like longer prison sentences.
a recent study she conducted among johns in chicago, illinois, found that 41 percent of them said john school would deter them from buying sex, compared with 92 percent who said being placed on a sex offender registry would scare them from re-offending.
nashville officials said they haven't tracked recidivism rates in their city, but the school's program director said it's probably deterring a third of the offenders in each class.
at least one college educated, 47-year-old john's attitude appeared to change on a recent saturday.
after class he wrote, "there is no good part. i would rather be with my wife. this was quick but it wasn't worth it."
[quote=warbucks]nashville, tennessee (cnn) -- the accused came from all walks of life: retirees, dads and twentysomethings. an engineer, a business owner and an auto worker....
"prostitution doesn't discriminate," said kenny baker, a cognitive behavioral therapist who is the program's director. "most of these men don't have a prior criminal history, so our goal is to help these folks understand why they put themselves in a bad position, to prevent it from happening again."
set in a church in nashville, tennessee, the john school is led by former prostitutes, health experts, psychologists and law enforcement officers who talk to -- and at times berate -- the men about the risks of hiring a prostitute.[/quote]
"most of these men don't have a prior criminal history..."
no kidding? and they shouldn't have one now either!
these "john school" stories always disgust me.
they are so biased and treat these guys like dangerous sex offenders.
when in fact most are just out for a bit of fun and got on the wrong side of stupid laws.
so these guys have to sit there and be preached to by a bunch of moral crusaders,
simply to avoid being stigmatized for something that millions of others get away with.
[quote]a recent study she conducted among johns in chicago, illinois, found that 41 percent of them said john school would deter them from buying sex, compared with 92 percent who said being placed on a sex offender registry would scare them from re-offending..[/quote]
sure, and cutting off their penises or stoning them in a public square would be a greater deterrent still - but is it just? put them on a list with serial [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord127][CodeWord127][/url] and child molesters? what on earth does their "crime" have to do with other sex offenders? yet i hear a lot about this in different jurisdictions, including canada - publicizing "johns" with real sex offenders. that would be a far greater crime than anything the hapless john has done!
[quote]after class he wrote, "there is no good part. i would rather be with my wife. this was quick but it wasn't worth it."[/quote] so, there are three people involved in this "crime".... maybe the wife should be sent to sex school so she can learn why and how to keep her man satisfied at home?
Its doing fine, Marak. True, it is frustrating that it is just another center-right corporation-and-rich-serving oligarchy, but what can we expect? At least it isn't the extreme-right theocracy which came before.
Guys URGENT info..
Please get as much info about David icke, it is very veryimportant...Obama, bush, political leaders, co-corporation, religion on planet earth is a giant compartmentalized pyramid to control mankind.
Obama will destroy America, he serves reptilian gods..he is not what you think he is....
read also about alex jones
[url]www.davidicke.com[/url]
all these political discussion is one hell of a cocoon devilish system. there is no point in talking unless we know who is behind it.
Born Loser:
I certainly hope that you don't seriously believe that crap. I mean really, reptilian gods... ROTFLMAO!
Now here is some more plausible information that involves the future of your home country and the world. The British haven't finished with India they still have plans for it and a number of other countries. Learn about it here.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbuoH1g_jYw&feature=related[/url]
[QUOTE=Chocha Monger]Born Loser:
I certainly hope that you don't seriously believe that crap. I mean really, reptilian gods... ROTFLMAO!
Now here is some more plausible information that involves the future of your home country and the world. The British haven't finished with India they still have plans for it and a number of other countries. Learn about it here.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbuoH1g_jYw&feature=related[/url][/QUOTE]
CM...I respect your opinion and what you saying is 10000% right, i only want you to look beyond what we see and read.....the world war 3 is much much much bigger scheme than what you and me can perceive.
British, Americans, Chinese, Indians are mere pawns in the hands of greater powers. They don't care who dies they just want blood and fear on this planet earth.
Just do your own research and figure out who are these people behind the scene.
Please don't believe in any religion, all science is false, everything is one big con game.
Our planet is one big black magic hoax, trust no one, believe no one in the coming times.
We have to go beyond the physical limitations to perceive what these guys are upto.
Whatever you would say i would totally agree, i would just want you to go beyond the point on what we would agree ..no conflict, non-violence is the answer in the coming fight...these guys want world war 3.
Its time to go beyond..and come out of the con game. the time is slowly coming upon us...iran may be next blood bath territory.
Please do Google for Illuminati and Atlantis lost civilization.
It all started from Atlantis, it goes way way beyond the recorded history.
Spread the message far and wide..no blood shed...non violence is everything.
Peace out
I feel it, Born Looser. I think this cabal has been having a deleterious secret influence on my dick - it seems not so hard as it used to be in the good old days. I don't know if the illuminati just want to unman me (who wouldn't be threatened by such studly power?) or if they're just trying to sell more Viagra. But either way, I know its them. Sapping my precious bodily fluids.
[QUOTE=Opebo]I feel it, Born Looser. I think this cabal has been having a deleterious secret influence on my dick - it seems not so hard as it used to be in the good old days. I don't know if the illuminati just want to unman me (who wouldn't be threatened by such studly power?) or if they're just trying to sell more Viagra. But either way, I know its them. Sapping my precious bodily fluids.[/QUOTE]
I understand how you feel Opebo. I myself have been putting my own devious schemes into motion. For example, I spent the better part of a night convincing a young pinay virgin that my penis was capable of solving all of the economic and social ills she is experiencing in her homeland if she would only grant him a private audience. :D
Opebo, CM
LOL....good one...:)
I'm too in it ....man...i don't know i wish may be for someone some day it would be helpful.
It sounds insane, which is what these elitist and occult people want.
I just want people to go beyond..what we see is just the movie...every single individual on planet earth has to find out on himself what is this all about.
There is no religion, no science...its all an occult devilish structure what we call this earth as we see it.
its all a play of Satan...nothing is real, please trust no body, not even god, science, friends, anyone.
we are entering a very sublime angelic phase and these structures are bound to fall..
Don't become a human sacrifice for these elites to satisfy their gods.
[url]http://www.illuminati-news.com[/url]
spread the message of non violence far and wide....peace out
after reading born loser’s warning i decided to head off to the corner café and enjoy a cup of black tea. as i sat on the terrace enjoying my beverage the high pitched cry of a bald eagle screeched from my pda. ah, that could only mean one thing. my japanese lover sumiko was calling for her regular therapy. her husband must have left for the office again. i knew i had to do my duty to keep this marriage intact. mr. cuckold sure wasn’t laying his fair yardage of pipe and it was up to me to fill the quota required by sumiko’s narrow trench. so i headed off to her neighborhood and made a precautionary recon of the area leaving my car parked up the street. not noticing any housewives or old hags peeping through the blinds, i strode up and rang the door bell. she greeted me at the door wearing a pair of those form fitting blue jeans that she likes so much. sumiko’s ass always fascinated me. it was small and tight yet it had a gentle curvature that one would not anticipate on an asian girl. a red blouse rising ever so slightly above her navel topped off her ensemble. she smiled at me with her large dark almond shaped eyes. she usually wore her raven black hair up in a bun but today she had it down around her shoulders.
she ushered me in and took my shoes hiding them in a closet. we then ascended to the bedroom where she already had two large towels spread on the bed to soak up the wet spot. i wasted no time in pulling up her blouse over her head and releasing the catch on her padded bra. it seems that japanese girls only go for bras with padding or a hard cup. the golden color of her skin and the fragrant aroma of her hair went straight to my head. needless to say the foreplay was perfunctory and in no time i was embedded in sumiko’s tight hot wet hole. i was quite enjoying myself to the sound of her moans and whimpers when something caused me to miss a stroke. now, there are not many things that can cause me to halt mid-stroke when i’m balls deep in some tight asian snatch but this sound did. it was as though someone had stepped on a stair causing the wood to creak under their weight. i withdrew from the viselike grip of sumiko’s little cylinder so fast that my plunger almost drew her innards out after it. her pussy made an audible pop as i hastily cleared the entrance.
she sprang up and slid into her robe, heading downstairs to stall for time as i quickly hid. who could it be? maybe it was her husband. perhaps, he forgot something that he needed at the office. my heart was pounding. i hope he didn’t come upstairs because he’d hear my heart thumping for sure. i waited sweating. i couldn’t tell whether i was sweating from the fucking i gave sumiko or from the massive dose of adrenaline coursing through my system. my dick wilted like a daisy in a drought stricken field. i don’t know how long i waited for her to return but it felt like time had been suspended. finally i heard footsteps approaching and my gut tightened.
fuck! if i was discovered i might have to fight my way out. imagine explaining that one to the law. then i heard her calling my name softly and giggling. she told me i could come out since it was all clear. i asked her who was it. she said that there wasn’t anyone there. she said that i was just being paranoid and we both had a good laugh. we finished up the session but i just couldn’t get back the initial rhythm of my stroke. at the back of my mind i remembered born loser’s warning not to trust anyone. someone had been there. maybe it was baron rothschild’s ghost or the illuminati up to their tricks again. i just know they sent one of their agents to throw me off my stroke in the middle of my tryst. it’s all part of their depopulation agenda.
[QUOTE=Chocha Monger]After reading Born Loser’s warning I decided to head off to the corner café and enjoy a cup of black tea. As I sat on the terrace enjoying my beverage the high pitched cry of a bald eagle screeched from my PDA. [/QUOTE]
Atlantis, Atlantis, Atlantis.....Whatever you think, whatever you do, if you have free time, do some research on the lost continent Atlantis....VERY IMPORTANT.
Everyone would wake up from the illusion that we live in now, I'm not against sex or what you wrote...i'm against fear that you experienced....these Illuminati prey on fear...thats their source of energy.. they play on our reptilian side of the brain..we all know exist..fear is what they build this world upon.
This is the one stage of understanding we all have to pass to understand our real nature..... this is THE biggest cover up extraordinare ever..
Everyone's collective consciousness is rising..we all are beginning to rise up ..
We will see more and more people waking up from this delusion.
Science & religion both are a con....real nature of man is different...
It would all seem ridiculous, but that is what these fucking elite want us to believe......i'm not different from you...i went to burgus, pattaya, cebu, DIA, Filipina heart, yahoo chat... i fucked more than 100 girls in the last six months...i'm not boasting this...but just showing u i'm one of you mongers which did the same thing as you..but i could feel some transformation is happening...we need to be positive folks... don't let fear take you over...our answer is love and non violence...these guys want to us fight and kill each other.
They want a new world order, a complete domination of one world centric society.
They operate on fear not on love...they will divide and rule..not unite human beings. Whatever you are doing continue to do...i'm not against sex or love or anything but we will go beyond that some time.
Everyone knows about Mayan's, Inca's, vedic, Babylonian, Mesopotamian, lumarian civilization.....we were told Atlantis did not exist and is a fantasy and if someone has some info, it would be ridiculed...
We all have to break the Atlantis code...these all civilization came from a highly advanced Atlantis ....this is one of the biggest secrets.
Who am i , what am'i doing here, what is all this existence....we all had this questions once didn't we...WHY? ...you will only find the answer when you uncover what Atlantis was?
Start from scratch, keep an open mind....google search will give u very few links to Atlantis ...i wonder why :)....go deep....everything is covered up just like our society.
this link is too high to grasp and sounds like a novel or fantasy or fiction combined....just go through it..
I'm not asking anyone to believe in some guru, some dogma, some religion, some 'ism's, science....just uncover the truth yourself through history.
[url]http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sumer_anunnaki/anunnaki/anu_18.htm[/url]
Peace out...remember guys....non violence is the answer..good luck CM
[QUOTE=Born Loser 5]
It would all seem ridiculous, but that is what these fucking elite want us to believe......i'm not different from you...i went to burgus, pattaya, cebu, DIA, Filipina heart, yahoo chat... i fucked more than 100 girls in the last six months...i'm not boasting this...but just showing u i'm one of you mongers which did the same thing as you..but i could feel some transformation is happening...we need to be positive folks... don't let fear take you over...our answer is love and non violence...these guys want to us fight and kill each other.[/QUOTE]
Brother,
You racked up over 100 fuck points in 6 months. Jackson change this gentleman's name from Born Loser 5 to Sex Machine! How much money did you spend on this wholesale fuck bonanza? Did score a fuck point each day or multiple fuck points per day. Six months is about 120 days give or take. That means you had a fresh hole almost every day. Please give a detailed synopsis of how you accomplished this feat. The world ends in 2012 and there are only so many days left to score fuck points.
Regards,
CM
To all skeptic's....please take your dollar bill and investigate why their is a pyramid with an eye...does america have pyramids ? why the dollar bill has a small picture of Owl ? does that make any sense?
If you investigate...the eye is of the Egyptian god Horus and its consort owl...they worshiped devil ? heard about bohemian groove where all living presidents meet on the month of july ?
Pantagram ? pentagon ?
These bloodlines have come from Egypt...America is their new egypt...interpret the words and that says new world order?
Everything is on the internet...look through the past of all the presidents...they all have come from monachy bloodlines from europe...
Why bush to clinton to obama...are members of freemason?
I'm not making this up...these are all facts one can check on the internet...
Just connect the dots and we all will see the truth.
The real research of our life's is just beginning now.
Do you want a real rush ...do the research on all black magic, devil workship, lucifer on the net and see if the people in the power had any participation in it....you want to get some action, real shock of your life...wish you had some adventure...where all alien's folklore were right....you will get it if you connect the dots.
Even if you don't agree on anything....non violence and love is the answer...they will want everyone to fight against each other in coming days...what are these FEMA CAMPS for...listen to alex jones.
American politics is just an instrument for these illuminates to further their goals.
Don't sacrifice your life for these devil work shippers
[QUOTE=Chocha Monger]Brother,
You racked up over 100 fuck points in 6 months. Jackson change this gentleman's name from Born Loser 5 to Sex Machine! How much money did you spend on this wholesale fuck bonanza? Did score a fuck point each day or multiple fuck points per day. Six months is about 120 days give or take. That means you had a fresh hole almost every day. Please give a detailed synopsis of how you accomplished this feat. The world ends in 2012 and there are only so many days left to score fuck points.
Regards,
CM[/QUOTE]
I don't remember the multiple sessions that we all do, its Philippines bro anything is possible :) i have written that i feel i'm a sex maniac :)..but still i respect women a lot, you wouldn't see i writing bad things about women and i pay every encounter well above the average price :)
The world doesn't end in 2012....that is what they want everyone to believe...collective consciousness , they want to create a reality that is different from the real.
Infact by 2012 to 2016 we all will know our real nature....these Illuminati's don't want that, they want control...
They dont want us to be free..the truth you will uncover would be 1 trillion times more powerful than an atomic weapon.
There is a lot of media, internet disinformation campaign going on...take everything with a pinch of salt, trust no one, believe none...only non violence and love is the answer in coming days.
We will more and more hear about one world order, one currency, climate change, one world governance and then alien invasion for the world to unite under one force to combat world problems.... believe none.
America is the hub of these monsters, they have infiltrated America a long long time back...they don't care if billions die.
End times are near, judgement is upon us...you will hear these words more often...trust no one...all lies sugar coated pills.
Almost all Americans presidents were freemasons? why is that?
Check these pic out, what are these signs, do we do this everyday...just connect the dots....this sign is the horn of lucifer....do research on devil, black magic, and these signs come up over and over again?
America is the new Egypt.
i am surprised at the absence of discussion here about the roman polanski arrest.
is it because we all understand that the little fucker had it coming to him?
i mean, we can all disagree with some of the silly sex laws that many countries, and the us in particular, have - but [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord125][CodeWord125][/url] and sodomizing a 13 year-old has got to be beyond the pale even for the most perverted monger! the guy could probably have had a queue of young wannabe starlets eagerly waiting outside his bedroom and he has to resort to getting a 13 year-old drunk, then drugged, then forcibly [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord125][CodeWord125][/url] and sodomizing her!
i understand that 30 years is a long time ago, and i don't know how the statute of limitations works in the us, but he was tried and convicted (and confessed), fleeing justice and living as a fugitive should not count as "time served" pre-sentencing! sure he was right to suspect his plea bargain might not be honored - no one ever got off that lightly for such a blatant crime.
yet the hollywood elite and french government are defending this little prick?
i guess their concept of sexual morality and justice is not as high and refined as that of isg mongers!
[quote=gentleman travel]i am surprised at the absence of discussion here about the roman polanski arrest.
is it because we all understand that the little fucker had it coming to him?
[/quote]
yes. we understand that roman polanski the little **** bastard had it coming to him. the sad thing was that he was going to get off with 90 days and probation if the judge hadn't seen those pictures in the press where polanski was at it again with **** girls in europe while awaiting his sentence. maybe we're just tired of the double standard in the american justice system when it comes to the rich and famous. there are things we don't like to acknowledge as americans like the fact that michael vick was punished more harshly for his mistreatment of dogs compared to roman polanski a confessed child [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord126][CodeWord126][/url].
[quote=gentleman travel]i am surprised at the absence of discussion here about the roman polanski arrest.
is it because we all understand that the little fucker had it coming to him?
i mean, we can all disagree with some of the silly sex laws that many countries, and the us in particular, have - but [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord125][CodeWord125][/url] and sodomizing a 13 year-old has got to be beyond the pale even for the most perverted monger! the guy could probably have had a queue of young wannabe starlets eagerly waiting outside his bedroom and he has to resort to getting a 13 year-old drunk, then drugged, then forcibly [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord125][CodeWord125][/url] and sodomizing her!
i understand that 30 years is a long time ago, and i don't know how the statute of limitations works in the us, but he was tried and convicted (and confessed), fleeing justice and living as a fugitive should not count as "time served" pre-sentencing! sure he was right to suspect his plea bargain might not be honored - no one ever got off that lightly for such a blatant crime.
yet the hollywood elite and french government are defending this little prick?
i guess their concept of sexual morality and justice is not as high and refined as that of isg mongers![/quote]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/roman_polanski#sex_crime_conviction[/url]
sex crime conviction
in 1977, polanski, then aged 44, became embroiled in a scandal involving 13-year-old samantha gailey (now samantha geimer). it ultimately led to polanski's guilty plea to the charge of unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor.[33][34]
according to geimer, polanski asked geimer's mother if he could photograph the girl for the french edition of vogue, which polanski had been invited to guest-edit. her mother allowed a private photo shoot. according to geimer in a 2003 interview, "everything was going fine; then he asked me to change, well, in front of him." she added, "it didn't feel right, and i didn't want to go back to the second shoot."[34]
geimer later agreed to a second session, which took place on march 10, 1977 at the home of actor jack nicholson in the mulholland area of los angeles. "we did photos with me drinking champagne," geimer says. "toward the end it got a little scary, and i realized he had other intentions and i knew i was not where i should be. i just didn't quite know how to get myself out of there." she recalled in a 2003 interview that she began to feel uncomfortable after he asked her to lie down on a bed, and how she attempted to resist. "i said, 'no, no. i don't want to go in there. no, i don't want to do this. no!', and then i didn't know what else to do," she stated, adding: "we were alone and i didn’t know what else would happen if i made a scene. so i was just scared, and after giving some resistance, i figured well, i guess i’ll get to come home after this".[35]
geimer testified that polanski gave her a combination of champagne and quaaludes,[36] a sedative drug, and "despite her protests, he performed oral sex, intercourse and sodomy on her",[37][38][39] each time after being told 'no' and being asked to stop.[40][41][42][43]
charges and guilty plea
polanski was initially charged[44] with [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url] by use of drugs, perversion, sodomy, lewd and lascivious act upon a child under 14, and furnishing a controlled substance (methaqualone) to a minor. these charges were dismissed under the terms of his plea bargain, and he pleaded guilty to the lesser charge of engaging in unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor.[45]
under the terms of the plea agreement, according to the documentary roman polanski: wanted and desired, the court ordered polanski to report to a state prison for a 90-day psychiatric evaluation, but granted a stay of ninety days to allow him to complete his current project. under the terms set by the court, he was permitted to travel abroad. polanski returned to california and reported to chino state prison for the evaluation period, and was released after 42 days. all parties expected polanski to get only probation at the subsequent sentencing hearing, but after an alleged conversation with la deputy district attorney david wells, the judge "suggested to polanski's attorneys that he would send the director to prison and order him deported".[46] in response to the threat of imprisonment, polanski fled the united states.
warbucks verdict:
i hope this mother fucker gets extradited back to the states and hope he gets sent to a super-max where he becomes the personal property of a extremely large triple-lifer black american inmate nick-named “big spicy” who after 5 years sales him for a carton of squares on some straight oz up shit :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/oz_(tv_series)
warbucks......no love for ****s
[quote=chocha monger]yes. we understand that roman polanski the little **** bastard had it coming to him. the sad thing was that he was going to get off with 90 days and probation if the judge hadn't seen those pictures in the press where polanski was at it again with **** girls in europe while awaiting his sentence. maybe we're just tired of the double standard in the american justice system when it comes to the rich and famous. there are things we don't like to acknowledge as americans like the fact that michael vick was punished more harshly for his mistreatment of dogs compared to roman polanski a confessed child [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord126][CodeWord126][/url].[/quote]
look at oj the most hated man in american history. last time he was on trial for trying to get some shit back that “belonged” to him all white jury? judge who ridiculed and berated him?
[url]http://www.azcentral.com/ent/celeb/articles/2009/09/30/20090930whoopi-goldberg-defends-polanski.html[/url]
can you believe the ugliest woman on earth whoopi goldberg came to the defense of this polanski saying it wasn’t a “[url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url] [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url]?” lol. not only that a lot of people in the entertainment business have asked the government to give him a past.
i think a while back i was arguing with dr. skank and host of others about the racial inequality of the american justice system and overall view of the demographic majority.
[quote=warbucks]look at oj the most hated man in american history. last time he was on trial for trying to get some shit back that “belonged” to him all white jury? judge who ridiculed and berated him?
[url]http://www.azcentral.com/ent/celeb/articles/2009/09/30/20090930whoopi-goldberg-defends-polanski.html[/url]
can you believe the ugliest woman on earth whoopi goldberg came to the defense of this polanski saying it wasn’t a “[url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url] [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url]?” lol. not only that a lot of people in the entertainment business have asked the government to give him a past.
i think a while back i was arguing with dr. skank and host of others about the racial inequality of the american justice system and overall view of the demographic majority.[/quote]
yeah, i love whoopi's "it's not [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url]-[url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url]" line.
so whoopi, what is [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url]?
it is clear that the girl did not consent - not that that would have been justification with a girl that age anyway.
it is clear that she did not lure or entice or cooperate in any way, except to drinking champange, illegally, which she thought was part of the photo shoot.
it is clear that polanski got her drunk and drugged and still had to force himself on her, with her saying "no" all along.
i mean what do you need to make it really [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url]?
while it is clear that polanski has escaped justice for decades and was offered an unbelievably lenient plea bargain in the first place, i don't think you can look at this as a black-white issue. many white men would do serious time for a crime as serious as this. sure it is more serious than mike vink's crime, but less serious than oj simpson's double-murder, from which he walked. everyone on the face of the earth knows that oj was guilty of those murders.
so let's agree that polanski is guilty of a much greater crime than vick, and somewhat more serious than oj's armed robbery and kidnapping. so let's agree he should get more than 15 years, with no chance of parole because he is a proven fllight risk. of coure oj is a flight risk also, remember the suv chase? vick not so much, he is a fast runner, but mostly on the football field.
[quote=chocha monger]yes. we understand that roman polanski the little **** bastard had it coming to him.[/quote]
actually no, some of us just don't discuss that sort of thing because we understand that is not permitted on this forum to refer to anything under the legal limit.
[QUOTE=Opebo]Actually no, some of us just don't discuss that sort of thing because we understand that is not permitted on this forum to refer to anything under the legal limit.[/QUOTE]
Yes. That too.
[QUOTE=Marak5]That's my rating.
Any comments on the Obama administration?[/QUOTE]
Please fell free to elaborate on that. What has he done? He sent 2 billion dollars to Brazil to help their offshore oil exploration while his actions have have just about shut ours down. Every time another rig leaves the US several more jobs are lost. He made a move to help the Jamas refugees (who hate us) easily immigrate to the US. He has made a clear path to blame everything on Bush. Personally I think the man is a moron.
[QUOTE=Beavis]Personally I think the man is a moron.[/QUOTE]
While it is not unusual for right-wingers to think that, your particular focus is very narrow! I hardly think history shall judge this presidency by its handling of minor details like offshore oil-drilling or a few refugees.
No, viewed overall, with a broad eye and an unclouded mind, there isn't much difference between the previous corporate administration and this one. There's been some chatter the poor-killing in the health care area will stop, but it seems unlikely. The tone of the imperialism has changed, but not the substance. And as for our hobby, well, it is still under attack the world over - perhaps under different auspices than the Republican's theocratic ones, but still, under attack.
The biggest compliment I can give to the American center-right party over the American extreme right party is this - they aren't crazy. Yes, they're servants of the same people, and the same oppression of the rest of us results, but they sell themselves on quotidian practicality, not on corybantic delusion.
[QUOTE=Opebo]While it is not unusual for right-wingers to think that, your particular focus is very narrow! I hardly think history shall judge this presidency by its handling of minor details like offshore oil-drilling or a few refugees.
No, viewed overall, with a broad eye and an unclouded mind, there isn't much difference between the previous corporate administration and this one. There's been some chatter the poor-killing in the health care area will stop, but it seems unlikely. The tone of the imperialism has changed, but not the substance. And as for our hobby, well, it is still under attack the world over - perhaps under different auspices than the Republican's theocratic ones, but still, under attack.
The biggest compliment I can give to the American center-right party over the American extreme right party is this - they aren't crazy. Yes, they're servants of the same people, and the same oppression of the rest of us results, but they sell themselves on quotidian practicality, not on corybantic delusion.[/QUOTE]
I'm neither right nor left wing, nor was I a fan of Bush. IMHO Bush was one of the worst presidents we had ever had.... at least until now.
I'm sure many would like to comment, but why is it that surveys results have demonstrated that most americans are middle ground and we still have this antagonist political system? Isn't it that it just serves the ones on the top? As far as I'm concerned I give a rats ass about any of them, because I believe they are all out for themselves. Public service my ass. Land of the free my ass. That is all long gone. Is land of the one that has the most.
Warning...Don't take swine flu shots, its much much more than what it appears. lots of stuff going on right now to control people at large. Sad day for Ireland for forcing them to say yes to the lisbon treaty....
the global agenda of these elite is something different than what is being projected in the world.
[QUOTE=Latin Bound]I'm sure many would like to comment, but why is it that surveys results have demonstrated that most americans are middle ground and we still have this antagonist political system? Isn't it that it just serves the ones on the top? As far as I'm concerned I give a rats ass about any of them, because I believe they are all out for themselves. Public service my ass. Land of the free my ass. That is all long gone. Is land of the one that has the most.[/QUOTE]
Very well said. Quote Lewis Black, "The only thing worse than a republican or a democrat is when these assholes work together. The way it works is the republican stands up and says I've got a really bad idea, then the democrat yells, and I can make it shittier."
Actually our sad homeland has no left or middle, but two right-wing parties, guys.
Its time to go beyond and not get caught up in circles..there are no answers in these planes...science and religion both have been infiltrated.
Seriously, folks, its no joke, save yourself from the events that will unfold in coming months and years.
American politics have already being highly infiltrated by dark forces... democrats and republicans both are corrupt...we all know that already...it's all going to get worse and worse...and we can all feel that already.
Then why wait for answers to the problem..find it for yourself.
Now these folks are talking suddenly about Iran having nuclear weapons ..are you kidding...we know what they did to Iraq with false weapons of mass destruction...its just a pretense to go into Iran and kill millions.
All Americans who are young, don't join the military and become a blood sacrifice to the ruling elite.
Dont kill yourself for some concepts and illusions. The plan is much much bigger than human understanding..
For start...Does anyone know here that Mahmoud Amamedinajad, the Iranian president is a Jew ? search in Google...how ironic right...the holocaust denier is a Jew and Jews have the second most population in Iran in the middle east.
Read this site which would make no sense now but will lator
[url]http://www.xeeatwelve.com/[/url]
[url]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33178495/ns/world_news/?GT1=43001[/url]
So who will win the Presidents cup this coming weekend guys?
Its U.S.A for me but we will kick your butts in next years Ryder Cup!
We will be luckt to remain in the top 50 under the current administration. Just ask Mrs. Pelosi about the minimum wage deferral in Guam.
[QUOTE=Beavis]We will be luckt to remain in the top 50 under the current administration. Just ask Mrs. Pelosi about the minimum wage deferral in Guam.[/QUOTE]While I am no expert on UNDP HDI ratings, I rather suspect that the failure of the current government to implement a 70 cent minimum wage rise in Guam did not have a significant impact on the US dropping one place from its 2006 ranking, especially as minimum wages are not even included in the index. But it must be tough on Wal-Mart employees in Guam...
well, americans are certainly regaining some international glory and stature, especially compared to their immorally-superior european friends.
today mr. obama has been awarded the nobel peace prize after only a few months in office and not much longer in the public consciousness. while many may feel obama does not deserve it - yet - it is a reflection of how highly regarded he is internationally.
and then from france we have revealed this dirty little secret (okay it was not a secret to the french people, but i think to most of the rest of the west) - that fredric mitterand, the french minister of culture and steadfast defender of soul-mate roman polanski, is a nasty **** of thai boys who brags (and writes) openly in his 2005 autobiography the bad life, "i got into the habit of paying for boys ... all these rituals of the market for youths, the slave market excite me enormously."
[url]www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2009/10/08/2009-10-08_french_pol_.html#ixzz0trgkfgik[/url]
the breathtaking thing is that mitterand admitted and wrote about these things a few years ago - that he frequented boy brothels in thailand and loved the power of buying sex slaves, but he still got appointed to be culture minister in a "conservative" government (on the recommendation of the president's mistress)!! only in france!
ok, well not only in france, because our friend silvio berlusconi is also in deep do-do regarding various affairs, including with minors, and consorting with prostitutes.
now most of us have affairs or consort with prostitutes also, but i think we recognize that this limits (or should limit) some of our career options - like becoming a catholic bishop or cabinet secretary or prime minister.
so, our american friends can hold their heads high on the world stage.
mr. obama is certainly standing head and shoulders above his european peers.
[QUOTE=Beavis]We will be luckt to remain in the top 50 under the current administration. Just ask Mrs. Pelosi about the minimum wage deferral in Guam.[/QUOTE]
Actually, the economy was in the shit hole before the current administration. The previous administration had already written stimulus checks and poured hundreds of billions into their war in Iraq. Let's not rewrite history.
[QUOTE=Chocha Monger]Actually, the economy was in the shit hole before the current administration. The previous administration had already written stimulus checks and poured hundreds of billions into their war in Iraq. Let's not rewrite history.[/QUOTE]
We're not going to have to rewrite anything. Mr. Obama is going to do that for us. We went from bad to worse.
[QUOTE=Gentleman Travel]While I am no expert on UNDP HDI ratings, I rather suspect that the failure of the current government to implement a 70 cent minimum wage rise in Guam did not have a significant impact on the US dropping one place from its 2006 ranking, especially as minimum wages are not even included in the index. But it must be tough on Wal-Mart employees in Guam...[/QUOTE]
It had nothing to do with the the state of the US. It had plenty to do with the fact that Mr. Pelosi is a major share holder in Del Monte who owns the Star Kist cannery on the island that employs 70% of it's population. How convenient to tailor the laws around ones private interest.
[quote=gentleman travel]and then from france we have revealed this dirty little secret (okay it was not a secret to the french people, but i think to most of the rest of the west) - that fredric mitterand, the french minister of culture and steadfast defender of soul-mate roman polanski, is a nasty **** of thai boys who brags (and writes) openly in his 2005 autobiography the bad life, "i got into the habit of paying for boys ... all these rituals of the market for youths, the slave market excite me enormously."[/quote]
more power to him. he's describing exactly what everyone on this forum does, albeit a different gender.
[quote=gentleman travel]the breathtaking thing is that mitterand admitted and wrote about these things a few years ago - that he frequented boy brothels in thailand and loved the power of buying sex slaves, but he still got appointed to be culture minister in a "conservative" government (on the recommendation of the president's mistress)!! only in france![/quote]
what's breathtaking about this is how wonderfully tolerant and reasonable is france compared to the american theocracy.
[quote=gentleman travel]now most of us have affairs or consort with prostitutes also, but i think we recognize that this limits (or should limit) some of our career options - like becoming a catholic bishop or cabinet secretary or prime minister.[/quote]
no, it does so limit, but it most certainly [i]should not[/i] so limit.
[QUOTE=Beavis]We're not going to have to rewrite anything. Mr. Obama is going to do that for us. We went from bad to worse.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure what metrics you're basing your position on so I can't argue with your opinion. What I know for sure is that a budget surplus was turned into a deficit during the Bush years. Things progressed steadily downhill from there. I think that Obama was elected as a convenient scapegoat for quagmire of shit left behind by his predecessor. Obama hasn't really done anything because Congress wouldn't let him. Like Meat Loaf pointed out the guy is little more than a mascot. I'm not sure why people believed that he could walk into office and magically reverse what transpired during the previous 8 yrs. Are Americans really that naive?
Anyone expecting a particular government or political party to save the country is in for a rude awakening. Secure your own interests and forget the government. This might mean changing countries of residence if necessary.
[QUOTE=Chocha Monger]
Anyone expecting a particular government or political party to save the country is in for a rude awakening. Secure your own interests and forget the government. This might mean changing countries of residence if necessary.[/QUOTE]
I don't see how anybody can argue with this, it's been in my radar for a while now.
Chocha Monger you was right. I think I will stay the Philippines. :(
[url]http://www.fox19.com/Global/story.asp?S=11287667[/url]
[QUOTE=Warbucks]Chocha Monger you was right. I think I will stay the Philippines. :(
[url]http://www.fox19.com/Global/story.asp?S=11287667[/url][/QUOTE]
Talk about getting your kicks on Route 66. The video also demonstrates why shootouts are best left to professionals. Did you notice that guy standing off about 10 ft behind his buddy firing pass him with his pistol? What is amazing is that no one got killed by friendly fire.
It's the Wild West gentlemen!
[url]http://bestoftheblogs.com/Home/21446[/url]
[QUOTE=Beavis]We're not going to have to rewrite anything. Mr. Obama is going to do that for us. We went from bad to worse.[/QUOTE]The US was heading down long before Obama got in there. Don't tell me it was going in the right direction then in 6 mths its turned this bad.
If anything he's trying to stop the flood gates from drowning us all. The banks were rippin off customer for the longest. Subprime loans, Then overdraft fees.
The bush admin, giving tax breaks to the top 2% of america, (who suppose to create jobs, but it just went into buying yachts/bentleys/vacations) while. Cutting out government college lending programs (which helped the middle class) to help banks rip off the middle class further.
In 1989 CEO's made 71% times more than the average worker, in 2000 CEO's made over 400% times more than the average worker. All because america bought into the Reagan philosophy of the "trickle down" affect. Supposely the more you gave to the rich the more jobs they were suppose to create. Only they forgot to tell the greedy CEO's who found everything but jobs to spend the money on. And America has been going down every since.
Now that the world has basically gone into a global society in which no country can function independently. The US is going to have to wait for other countries to come up before it will be able to get any better due to outsourcing of all manufactured products. As long as its cheaper to make goods outside of the country america will remain rather stagnant.
interesting take on us presidents.
as we follow this bloodline through the millennia we find that all 43 presidents of the united states to george w. bush, the royal families of england, including the house of windsor, and those responsible for the creation and imposition of christianity and other religions, like the jehovah's witnesses and the mormons.
of those 43 us presidents since the first in 1789, some 34 are connected genetically to charlemagne,the most famous monarch of what we now call france, and a major figure in the illuminati and its bloodlines.
in the last weeks of the farcical year 2000 presidential election campaign, that "blue blood bible" of royal and aristocratic genealogy, burke's peerage, confirmed the themes i am highlighting here.
four years earlier, when bill clinton faced bob dole, burkes peerage said that the candidate with the most european royal genes had won every single presidential election in us history. clinton and george w. bush have since continued that unbroken sequence.
in a reuter's report of october 17th, 2000, burkes peerage confirmed that both george w. bush and "opponent" al gore were of royal descent with bush the "bluer" of the two. purely by knowing his bloodline and watching the behind-the-scenes developments, i was able to predict three years before the 2000 election that george blood brothers w. bush would be the next president of the united states. bush is closely related to every european monarch on and off the throne including the king of albania and has kinship with every member of britain's royal family, the report said.
he is a 13th cousin of britain's (seriously reptilian) queen mother, and her daughter queen elizabeth, and is a 13th cousin once removed of the heir to the throne, prince charles. bush has a direct descent from henry iii and from henry viii's sister mary tudor, who was also the wife of louis xi of france. he is further descended from charles ii of england. harold brooks-baker, publishing director of burke's peerage, said: "it is now clear that mr gore and mr bush have an unusually large number of royal and noble descents." only unusual if you don't know the story.
he added: "in point of fact, never in the history of the united states have two presidential candidates been as well endowed with royal alliances."23 brooks-baker said there had always been a significant "royalty factor" in those who aspired to the white house, with presidents george washington, thomas jefferson, franklin and theodore roosevelt, and ronald reagan, among others, all boasting blue blood links.
he said that al gore, a cousin of former president, richard nixon, was a
descendant of edward i and has direct links to the holy roman empire through
emperors, louis ii, charles ii and louis i. this, therefore, makes him a direct
descendant of charlemagne, the 8th-century emperor.24 these charlemagne links make gore a cousin of george w. bush!
[quote=born loser 5]interesting take on us presidents.
as we follow this bloodline through the millennia we find that all 43 presidents of the united states to george w. bush, the royal families of england, including the house of windsor, and those responsible for the creation and imposition of christianity and other religions, like the jehovah's witnesses and the mormons. [/quote]um, do you mean to tell me that the crown created christianity? the british crown is something less than 10 centuries old. so what are you saying? the birth of christ (and i say this as a historical event, and not as a believer) was over 2000 years ago. so, there are some adding problems with this argument. [quote]of those 43 us presidents since the first in 1789, some 34 are connected genetically to charlemagne,the most famous monarch of what we now call france, and a major figure in the illuminati and its bloodlines.[/quote]ok....if you want to get technical, every person is genetically connected to every other person. if you want to narrow it down a bit further, you can know that (for example), kohanim in israel are related in some way to lemba in africa (i believe it was kohanim that were studied as the basis of a marker). so now what? lemba in africa are the furthest thing you would ever think of jews-- either israeli or american. so, if the presidents are related to french people, then what?
[quote]in the last weeks of the farcical year 2000 presidential election campaign, that "blue blood bible" of royal and aristocratic genealogy, burke's peerage, confirmed the themes i am highlighting here.
four years earlier, when bill clinton faced bob dole, burkes peerage said that the candidate with the most european royal genes had won every single presidential election in us history. clinton and george w. bush have since continued that unbroken sequence. [/quote]ok......1) what is his evidence for this statement? you know that at some level of abstraction, a spark plug and a canteloupe are related to each other. so, is this guy saying that the presidents shared one single genetic marker? and if they did, then so what? there are something like 40,000 genes on the human genome. so if 43 people express the same allelle (and they are all white people), then does that mean anything special? 2)if there is some genetic relationship, how can you prove that there is a conspiracy vs. the possibility that those people had good enough genes to make it to the top?
[QUOTE=Clandestine782]Um, do you mean to tell me that the Crown created Christianity? The British Crown is something less than 10 centuries old. So what are you saying? The birth of Christ (and I say this as a historical event, and not as a believer) was over 2000 years ago. So, there are some adding problems with this argument. Ok....if you want to get technical, every person is genetically connected to every other person. If you want to narrow it down a bit further, you can know that (for example), Kohanim in Israel are related in some way to Lemba in Africa (I believe it was Kohanim that were studied as the basis of a marker). So now what? Lemba in Africa are the furthest thing you would ever think of Jews-- Either Israeli or American. So, if the Presidents are related to French people, then what?
Ok......1) What is his evidence for this statement? You know that at some level of abstraction, a spark plug and a canteloupe are related to each other. So, is this guy saying that the Presidents shared ONE SINGLE genetic marker? And if they did, then so what? There are something like 40,000 genes on the human genome. So if 43 people express the same allelle (and they are all white people), then does that mean anything special? 2)If there is some genetic relationship, how can you prove that there is a conspiracy vs. the possibility that those people had good enough genes to make it to the top?[/QUOTE]
Clandestine, Good Points, It is an extract from David Icke's books The Children of Matrix. I just posted a paragraph from the book.
Christianity is just a front of these Satan work shippers, all US presidents were members of Bohemian groove, where satanic ritual takes place every month end of july. it was videotaped by Alex jones of infowars.com. You can Google it Bohemian Groove Alex jones. The world is not as we think it is.
In the name of Christianity all top politicians and businessman work ship Lucifer.
All presidents in America are member of either Freemasonry or skull and bones, a satanic secret society. just type in you tube.
These are facts, You can type freemason US presidents in Google and get all info. George bush is a member of Skull and bones and they openly say that so.
Even if you say you don't go with genetic make up, You can search Google and youtube type secret society US presidents, there are tons of verifiable information out there which seems plausible that all does not seem the way it is.
[QUOTE=Born Loser 5]Clandestine, Good Points, It is an extract from David Icke's books The Children of Matrix. I just posted a paragraph from the book.
Christianity is just a front of these Satan work shippers, all US presidents were members of Bohemian groove, where satanic ritual takes place every month end of july. it was videotaped by Alex jones of infowars.com. You can Google it Bohemian Groove Alex jones. The world is not as we think it is.
In the name of Christianity all top politicians and businessman work ship Lucifer.
All presidents in America are member of either Freemasonry or skull and bones, a satanic secret society. just type in you tube.
These are facts, You can type freemason US presidents in Google and get all info. George bush is a member of Skull and bones and they openly say that so.
Even if you say you don't go with genetic make up, You can search Google and youtube type secret society US presidents, there are tons of verifiable information out there which seems plausible that all does not seem the way it is.[/QUOTE]
Born Loser 5:
Founding father Benjamin Franklin was not only a Freemason but an avid monger. What about all the ISG mongers who are Freemasons? Are they servants of Lucifer?
[quote=chocha monger]born loser 5:
founding father benjamin franklin was not only a freemason but an avid monger. what about all the isg mongers who are freemasons? are they servants of lucifer?[/quote]
lol good one :)...ben was a very high degree freemason, he was totally into satanic ritual and human sacrifice to the tee. he was a monger but of ****d child to gay sex to drinking blood. i know it sounds horrific, how would one explain dead bodies been dug up where four adults and six children where found in his old home basement in london recently. with all the marking in bone been drilled and cut and we all probably know about this apparently unconnected news, only when we start connecting the dots do we find something is plausible.
[url]http://healthandsurvival.com/2008/09/05/10-dead-people-at-ben-franklins-home/[/url]
[url]http://www.infowars.com/articles/occult/hellfire.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.upenn.edu/gazette/0998/0998gaz5.html[/url]
isg monger who are member of freemason, most have no clue what is going on in the higher degree up of the chain, folks above 20 degree are taught about the rituals, symbolism and sacrifices and when some reach 33 degree they are made aware of the path they have chosen.
think about it..even if we deny everything else, how can we deny the fact that all us presidents were members of some secret society. now that is a fact which is verifiable and even some members like bush admit it openly.
i just don't feel it right, when the most free nation in the world presidents are eager to join some secret societies.
anyway, it's much deeper than ben frank. he is just a pawn in the great game to control our life's.
[QUOTE=Born Loser 5]Clandestine, Good Points, It is an extract from David Icke's books The Children of Matrix. I just posted a paragraph from the book.
Christianity is just a front of these Satan work shippers, all US presidents were members of Bohemian groove, where satanic ritual takes place every month end of july. it was videotaped by Alex jones of infowars.com. You can Google it Bohemian Groove Alex jones. The world is not as we think it is.
In the name of Christianity all top politicians and businessman work ship Lucifer.
All presidents in America are member of either Freemasonry or skull and bones, a satanic secret society. just type in you tube.
These are facts, You can type freemason US presidents in Google and get all info. George bush is a member of Skull and bones and they openly say that so.
Even if you say you don't go with genetic make up, You can search Google and youtube type secret society US presidents,there are tons of verifiable information out there which seems plausible that all does not seem the way it is.[/QUOTE]
Born Loser, the internet is a vast trash heap of "information" and you have to be very discerning to pick out the nuggets of truth from the rest of the slag. I hope you are more discerning and less guillible when it comes to choosing girls for mongering! (Hint, she doesn't really "love you" and it may not be "so big" as she says - sorry to burst your bubble!)
"It is an extract from David Icke's books The Children of Matrix."
Speaking of which, did you know that the world as we know it is all an illusion, a vast conspiracy run by computers know as the Matrix, and we are all just parts of the program? Honestly, just Google it...
Born Loser 5:
What if you were offered an opportunity to be part of a very ancient secret society that practically guaranteed you financial success and power over others in your society? Would you turn down the offer to join such an organization? Would you reject access to secret knowledge and a vast network of powerful men willing to grant you favors? Isn't that what many people seek when they apply to exclusive universities and network with business colleagues?
Born Looser 5,
You didn't hear this from me, but you might want to break out the tinfoil.
There coming budy. I hear your thoughts.
Be afraid, VERY afraid.
[QUOTE=Chocha Monger]Born Loser 5:
What if you were offered an opportunity to be part of a very ancient secret society that practically guaranteed you financial success and power over others in your society? Would you turn down the offer to join such an organization? Would you reject access to secret knowledge and a vast network of powerful men willing to grant you favors? Isn't that what many people seek when they apply to exclusive universities and network with business colleagues?[/QUOTE]
I turned down the offer. I was offered the opportunity by a 3rd degree to join their organization. I could have easily said I believe in god (a supreme being) which is one of their requirements and been accepted but due to devout atheism I could not say that.
I witnessed with my own eyes a lot of them land high powered jobs and get out of trouble with the police due to their affiliation.
[QUOTE=Chocha Monger]Born Loser 5:
What if you were offered an opportunity to be part of a very ancient secret society that practically guaranteed you financial success and power over others in your society? Would you turn down the offer to join such an organization? Would you reject access to secret knowledge and a vast network of powerful men willing to grant you favors? Isn't that what many people seek when they apply to exclusive universities and network with business colleagues?[/QUOTE]
CM...I understand what you are trying to say and this is the reason i wanted to know about who these guys are and how the hell these guys hold so much enormous power by joining secret societies.
One dot of info connected to another and what we see outside is not all what goes on inside.
we have to first understand, this world is a creation of Satan. These guys make pact with Satan in exchange for their souls when they die for the enourmous power they get when they live.
They know very well that, they have taken a left hand path for quick way to economic power, in the end they know after death they will have to serve the Satan for ever...that is the reason..most of the top people try to hold on to their bodies for how long it could hold, cos they know after their death..their is no coming back.
If a guy has 100 million net worth he or she must be connected to a secret society else you would be falsely charged and put behind bars or murdered which will look like accident or suicide.
In US and most of EU countries, you won't be even considered for a top job,if you are not a member of some secret societies, never mind the brilliance you have.
I understand all the skepticism, and it all sounds hocus pokus, one just has to read the history of these secret societies to know how demonic they are.
We are all been prepared for New World Order. I have not said anything which is not verifiable on the internet by countless researchers. You can get more info on david Icke's books or davidicke.com
[Quote]I turned down the offer. I was offered the opportunity by a 3rd degree to join their organization. I could have easily said I believe in god (a supreme being) which is one of their requirements and been accepted but due to devout atheism I could not say that.
I witnessed with my own eyes a lot of them land high powered jobs and get out of trouble with the police due to their affiliation.[/quote]
Many folks who join secret societies don't realize why they need a person of faith, the reason, i read was Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Islam etc, are all creation of these societies in the present form by indoctrination or infiltration for thousands of years.
They have twisted the truth for their own agenda, it is easier to manipulate folks who have religious background than with an atheist who would have many questions to answer before accepting anything.
In short, these secret societies are after folks who have desires for power and control at the same time weak in his will.
[QUOTE=Max Mojo]Born Looser 5,
You didn't hear this from me, but you might want to break out the tinfoil.
There coming budy. I hear your thoughts.
Be afraid, VERY afraid.[/QUOTE]
LOL....I would be glad to be in a tinfoil with a Filipina pussy...:)
Peace
[QUOTE=Gentleman Travel]Born Loser, the internet is a vast trash heap of "information" and you have to be very discerning to pick out the nuggets of truth from the rest of the slag. I hope you are more discerning and less guillible when it comes to choosing girls for mongering! (Hint, she doesn't really "love you" and it may not be "so big" as she says - sorry to burst your bubble!)
"It is an extract from David Icke's books The Children of Matrix."
Speaking of which, did you know that the world as we know it is all an illusion, a vast conspiracy run by computers know as the Matrix, and we are all just parts of the program? Honestly, just Google it...[/QUOTE]
I understand it totally mate, that is why it takes so much time to find a genuine GF, pussy or info now a days.....its the same as diamond in the rough scenario where ever we go, the conditions whether to find a GF or truth is similar now a days, we have to find it through the maze of disinformation.
As with mongering as with information, i'm very careful to check which one is right and which one is a fake.
I found ISG five years back and sticked with it and now we know our judgement was right else i wouldn't have found PH in the first place.
I got offer's for living in Canada, UK & Australia and many of my friends were tempted to go there and now they want to come back and most are driving taxi's there.... life is shit for them. They will never ever believe that PH is great for fun, even if i show pic they say, im with a hooker. Thats how bad the conditioning is for them, they can't accept the fact that a country which is not as progressive as the west could be so much fun.
This is what i'm trying to say here, the world is not as we think it is. I got most of the truth not from main stream media but from sites like these.
------------------------------
The Matrix that David Icke says is exactly what i wrote above in my case, people are made to believe that west is a paradise of nature, where everything is perfect and beautiful...well that is from outside...when ignorant newbies from developing country goes to the west, they soon realize that it is not what it seems to be and they start living in another prison. We have countless stories of folks getting trapped by these travel agents and becoming later to survive taxi drivers and waiters etc.
This is the illusion of the world i think David says in one scenario. Of course we know of the various dimensions etc and the Illuminati's try hard for us to remain in this conditioned reality for ever.
Peace
[QUOTE=Born Loser 5]The Matrix that David Icke says is exactly what i wrote above in my case, people are made to believe that west is a paradise of nature, where everything is perfect and beautiful...well that is from outside...when ignorant newbies from developing country goes to the west, they soon realize that it is not what it seems to be and they start living in another prison. We have countless stories of folks getting trapped by these travel agents and becoming later to survive taxi drivers and waiters etc.[/QUOTE]Sure this happens everyday, and some of it is a conspircay, but not particularly secret or run by the Illuminati. It is straight trade unioin protectionism. Indian doctors and Pakistani Ph.Ds come to Canada and the US and get stuck in low-level jobs because their qualifications are not recognized by the Canadian Medical Association or whoever, and they have not or cannot do the skills and licencing top-up required.
Sometimes this is legitimate (would I want a Thai doctor operating on my daughter? I have no idea of the standards there!) and a lot of it is bullshit protectionism - making highly skilled people from other systems jump through expensive and time-consuming hoops just to keep them in their place. If it is any comfort to you, we often do this within Canada also, when you move from one jurisdiction to another. Yes it is stupid and unfair and, in some respects, a conspiracy. But it is all out in the open and official and the motives and self-interest are clear. And prospective immigrants can and should do this basic research before they come.
[QUOTE=Gentleman Travel] And prospective immigrants can and should do this basic research before they come.[/QUOTE]
Amen to that, I have saved so much time, money and fun by just RTTF and doing multiple research on the same topic by various sources. Most of the folks just go to the west by outside beauty and i go by the rule by learning very hard that looks could be decieving.
There is a site notcanada.com where immigrants describe there horror stories in details and how the canadian givernemnt omits most of the info by luring unsustpected folks into canada only to realise their life savings is scoped by the auathorities and now in order to qualify they need to go back to university to get back into the system.
[QUOTE=Born Loser 5]Amen to that, I have saved so much time, money and fun by just RTTF and doing multiple research on the same topic by various sources. Most of the folks just go to the west by outside beauty and i go by the rule by learning very hard that looks could be decieving.
There is a site notcanada.com where immigrants describe there horror stories in details and how the canadian givernemnt omits most of the info by luring unsustpected folks into canada only to realise their life savings is scoped by the auathorities and now in order to qualify they need to go back to university to get back into the system.[/QUOTE]
Born Loser 5:
In my experience when a citizen of the U.S./Canada warns aspiring immigrants about the reality of what is awaiting on the other side they think that person is bullshitting. They think we want to keep them out because we want all of the greener grass for ourselves and they find all kinds of arguments as to why they'll do better than others who preceded them. Then they get there and cry when they realize that the money doesn't come as easy as they expected. They're so blinded by their dreams of getting rich that they ignore information readily obtainable indicating that things wouldn't be so rosy. Foreign doctors know that their credentials isn't worth shit in the U.S. and they'll have to go back to school and sit for U.S. licensing exams plus foreign medical graduate exams. They convince themselves that it will be a piece of cake and that they can afford the expense involved. Many of them end up as lab techs or even cab drivers. They also lose all of the social status and respect that came with their profession in their home country.
One of my Chinese friends said that her little son asked her if money grew on trees. She asked him what in the world gave him that idea. He said that he saw that she was always giving it away so he figured it must grow on trees or something. She told me that she is seriously considering returning to China because it would cost a lot less to live there and she took a hard hit in the U.S. during the recession.
[QUOTE=Chocha Monger]Born Loser 5:
In my experience when a citizen of the U.S./Canada warns aspiring immigrants about the reality of what is awaiting on the other side they think that person is bullshitting. They think we want to keep them out because we want all of the greener grass for ourselves and they find all kinds of arguments as to why they'll do better than others who preceded them. Then they get there and cry when they realize that the money doesn't come as easy as they expected. They're so blinded by their dreams of getting rich that they ignore information readily obtainable indicating that things wouldn't be so rosy. Foreign doctors know that their credentials isn't worth shit in the U.S. and they'll have to go back to school and sit for U.S. licensing exams plus foreign medical graduate exams. They convince themselves that it will be a piece of cake and that they can afford the expense involved. Many of them end up as lab techs or even cab drivers. They also lose all of the social status and respect that came with their profession in their home country.
One of my Chinese friends said that her little son asked her if money grew on trees. She asked him what in the world gave him that idea. He said that he saw that she was always giving it away so he figured it must grow on trees or something. She told me that she is seriously considering returning to China because it would cost a lot less to live there and she took a hard hit in the U.S. during the recession.[/QUOTE]
Yep...blame it on ignorance and hollywood...:)
Its time to wake up and see the con that the world government is playing on humanity. i don't think many here would believe ever that aliens were already here for the past 5 hundred thousand years and are controlling everything in the world today.
Its really out there, US and UK lie on the energy grid that are important for the Illuminati to control the world.
The point is everyone in America is made and prepared to be a sacrificial lamb for the illuminati to exploit the earth's energy grid. Don't join the army, you are serving the evil master and lucifer.
The Anglo American version of the NWO based on US-British Domination is ending an a new Asian world order is remaining, I live in a country that is turning away from its traditional American-British allies and moving towards Asia.
America's ability to influence the world order is rapidly deteriorating and a new Asian order will dominate this world. The current crisis that is sweeping the USA and the West is not once in a decade or a Century its an and of a 500 year cycle of history that saw white Christian European people dominate this world, that era is now ending.
[QUOTE=Australiasucks]The Anglo American version of the NWO based on US-British Domination is ending an a new Asian world order is remaining, I live in a country that is turning away from its traditional American-British allies and moving towards Asia.
America's ability to influence the world order is rapidly deteriorating and a new Asian order will dominate this world. The current crisis that is sweeping the USA and the West is not once in a decade or a Century its an and of a 500 year cycle of history that saw white Christian European people dominate this world, that era is now ending.[/QUOTE]
It is a make believe world, we are been told something, and made to see something while the top folks do their hidden agenda.
[url]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/bulgaria/6650677/Aliens-already-exist-on-earth-Bulgarian-scientists-claim.html[/url]
The world is been prepared by the government to announce that aliens exists...but that is a lie, aliens were here for thousands of years and were responsible for building most of modern technology.....our history is totally different from what we read in school and media.
But, of course it will seem ridiculous, that is their plan, until they feel it right to disclose alien existence and take humanity to another round of ignorant life.
They made america crash and making it believe Asia is doing good, they dont care about humans let alone american or Asian, its not a conspiracy its their global agenda new world order.
Stunning UFO snake like object caught on video in mexico
[url]http://www.disclose.tv/forum/stunning-ufo-snake-mexico-2009-t12297.html[/url]
Bush and reptilians must watch
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEaTKfd-IcY&feature=player_embedded[/url]
satan ruled music industry with proof
[url]http://vigilantcitizen.com/[/url]
[QUOTE=Australiasucks]The Anglo American version of the NWO based on US-British Domination is ending an a new Asian world order is remaining, I live in a country that is turning away from its traditional American-British allies and moving towards Asia.
America's ability to influence the world order is rapidly deteriorating and a new Asian order will dominate this world. The current crisis that is sweeping the USA and the West is not once in a decade or a Century its an and of a 500 year cycle of history that saw white Christian European people dominate this world, that era is now ending.[/QUOTE]
I am not sure about China ever becoming a great power. They have numerous problems to overcome like poisonous food products, environmental contamination, dangerous fake products and emerging diseases. Betting on China is like backing a jack ass in a horse race.
There is also the issue of barbarism.
[url]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-506153/Animals-torn-pieces-lions-baying-crowds-spectator-sport-China-DOESNT-want-see.html[/url]
Hi Concha Monger & Australiasucks.
I think that Asia is the raising star with their own NWO. Europe dominated for a couple of hundred years the WORLD Order, then the declining UK dominated the NWO, now the pedelum swings back again to Asia.
There are no worries for Europe, europe will arrange itself with the NWO, it has in his backyard countries like Russia which will act as a buffer/moderator in the sense of a economical basis. But the US are in the deepest trouble. They are bankrupt, everything they own is on credit from Asia. How shall that situation go on? The US needs a new war with Asia and can only after winning this war (which I think is quite possible) strike off all depts.
The times of Mao Zedong and Father Ho are over, all the Asians have far too much to loose. They have found their paradise, work, family, education, relative stability and they save money. The US citicens have not enough work, do not save money and in their own country they do not have enough stability. (What happens to a guy who gets his foot blown off in Afgahnistan after he comes back to the US and has to leave the military)
These are the reasons why I think that Asia is the raising power which will put its mark on this new century.
Carlos Primeros
There are many factors that will ensure that China will never become a role model for other countries to follow.
1. One child only policy. China started this rule for families to have only one child in 1979. In China, a male is given more honor than a female; therefore, many families only kept a male child. The females are either aborted or abandoned in orphanages. As a result, male children born outnumber female children at a ratio of 116.9 to 100. After thirty years of this dumb policy, there is now a ratio of 106 men to 100 women throughout the entire country of China. Unfortunately, population control has not helped since more than 1 billion people reside in China. If the Chinese cannot handle this problem of overpopulation, then they will never be able to figure out how to even become a superpower. Think about it: they outnumber every country in the world and they still haven't figured out how to be the #1 country in the world. Maybe Sun TzuSun Tzu's 'Art of War' should have had a section on how to show the Chinese some strategies on becoming a world power.
2. Human Rights Issues. The Chinese government always suppresses anyone who chooses to disagree with the government. They imprison, torture, and kill anyone who chooses to express different views than what the government wants the masses of China to follow. Squelching freedom of expression saps all creativity from the country. Nobody wants to invent or create anything different because of the threat of being killed for just expressing ideas. Therefore, the government keeps the masses of China in a mediocre, stagnant state with no clues on how to become greater.
3. Economic Issues. Gold right now is over one thousand dollars an ounce. Whenever there is an economic crisis, the prices of precious metals skyrocket. What does China do? They invest a majority of their money in USA's T-bills. If the USA collapses in the future, then China would economically collapse as well. China's economic future is directly intertwined with how the USA does. Dependence on another country will never put China into superpower status.
4. Production Issues. China's number one exporter is the USA. However, whatever China makes is extra crappy. The paint on some of the toys they make have more lead in them than a box of pencils. China causes the most pollution throughout the world. Pollution is caused because of ineffective production. China could clear up pollution because the Olympics last year in Beijing was free from pollution. Slothful attitudes will ensure that China will never become a superpower.
[url]http://www.asianoffbeat.com/default.asp?display=1882[/url]
[url]http://chinabounder.********.com/2008/07/chinabounder-weekender-part-three.html[/url]
I had many Chinese students over the years and while they excelled at mathematics, and were excellent students overall, they were not accustomed to independent thinking or unstructured problem solving. One incident that stands out in my mind was giving an extra credit story problem that could be solved using pure logic. They got all bogged down doing calculus and solving simultaneous equations. Not only couldn't they solve the problem but they couldn't understand the solution.
However I once taught a class where 100% of the students were Japanese and those students really sucked. No wonder that economy collapsed. I flunked so many of them on the first exam that I got a friendly visit from my Iranian department head, explaining me about all the culture differences I needed to consider. No. When in Rome do like a Roman or get the fuck out.
So if not China, who will be the next number one? Because the US is toast.
[QUOTE=Dickhead]I had many Chinese students over the years and while they excelled at mathematics, and were excellent students overall, they were not accustomed to independent thinking or unstructured problem solving. One incident that stands out in my mind was giving an extra credit story problem that could be solved using pure logic. They got all bogged down doing calculus and solving simultaneous equations. Not only couldn't they solve the problem but they couldn't understand the solution.
However I once taught a class where 100% of the students were Japanese and those students really sucked. No wonder that economy collapsed. I flunked so many of them on the first exam that I got a friendly visit from my Iranian department head, explaining me about all the culture differences I needed to consider. No. When in Rome do like a Roman or get the fuck out.
So if not China, who will be the next number one? Because the US is toast.[/QUOTE]
So you teach courses that use calculus and linear algebra? No wonder you know so much about statistics!
I remember a college course in sociology, or some other culture related soft science, in which the professor showed a documentary about arts education in China produced by Shirley Maclaine, the actress. She was trying to learn how creativity is taught and encouraged in Chinese grade schools compared to US grade schools.
The gist of the film (made in early 1980s) was that creativity and individuality were stifled in Chinese children. Conformity and group consensus were strongly encouraged. The professor made the point that creativity and imagination are needed to create a framework for developing a solution to a problem. Creativity provides the context for the application of technical tools like calculus, linear algebra, or statistics.
Based on that film, it is not surprising that you found those Chinese students competent in technical tools but lacking in the ability to develop the best context in which to apply those technical tools to solve a problem.
nah, the course didn't require calculus or linear algebra, but the problem could have been solved (or partially solved) with either. the issue was, both were overkill. you could have just diagrammed it or talked your way through it. i stole it from reader's digest for chrissakes. i know calculus and i know linear algebra but i've never taught a course that [b]required[/b] either of those. statistics i did teach at the college level, but this was a general mba course and i assigned the problem because they were getting too bogged down in methodology and could not see the forest for the trees.
to put it in mongering terms, it was like they were in trocadero, or campo alegre, or walking street in pattaya, and were using trigonometry and triangulation to find hookers. that is not efficient. however, i would also argue that using shirley maclaine films to analyze a culture is fairly intellectually bankrupt as well; that gal is pretty much of a freak show.
i took one course that [b]did[/b] require the use of both calculus and linear programming, a graduate level course titled managerial economics. one of the best courses i ever took and one of the best profs i ever had. but, he could not keep his dick in his pants, and ruined his career due to "inappropriate conduct" with female students. some may chalk this up to aws being overly sensitive but i saw this first hand and it was definitely inappropriate and over the top. i think he had plenty of money and didn't really care.
but the moral of the story is, he should have mongered instead of pooping in his lunch pail.
[QUOTE=Dickhead]I had many Chinese students over the years and while they excelled at mathematics, and were excellent students overall, they were not accustomed to independent thinking or unstructured problem solving. One incident that stands out in my mind was giving an extra credit story problem that could be solved using pure logic. They got all bogged down doing calculus and solving simultaneous equations. Not only couldn't they solve the problem but they couldn't understand the solution.
However I once taught a class where 100% of the students were Japanese and those students really sucked. No wonder that economy collapsed. I flunked so many of them on the first exam that I got a friendly visit from my Iranian department head, explaining me about all the culture differences I needed to consider. No. When in Rome do like a Roman or get the fuck out.
So if not China, who will be the next number one? Because the US is toast.[/QUOTE]
I think Brazil is in a great position. They’ve pulled their shit together after their last melt down. Their currency is strengthening and mongers are feeling it. They have plenty of natural resources to support their economy and their interest rate is falling. Most importantly they’re the only country close to energy self sufficiency. This will be an important factor as the US, China, and India go after each others throat as fossil fuel supplies run out. Sure the US and China will still have more war toys but that didn’t do the Soviet Union much good when it collapsed economically.
Very Good info on who is in control of our life's
[url]http://thefreemanperspective.blog spot.com/[/url]
Must watch video
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfJmn9FkOlU&feature=related[/url]
I didn't knew that Marilyn Manroe was cousin of George Bush !!!!
Hillary Clinton is related to Angelia Jolie
Obama is related to Brad Pitt
McCain's related to Britney spears
We know, we all are related to one another in some way back in the ages, but not in the present day we can claim everyone in power is related to us so closely as in cousin's not like man came from single African DNA thing
Its time to wake up guys...We have to cross the gap of what they call "conspiracy" and real hardcore facts..that you can check it in any library in US....
The above are facts, when i first wrote here that all American presidents were freemasons connected to european royalty..people said its co-incidence well 44 times coincidence.
We have been had by our balls for a long time..its time to wake up from the prison of black magicians.
Happy New year.
Stargate Atlantis cast very similar to Obama administration...
[url]http://thefreemanperspective.blog spot.com/2008/04/cern-grid-red-button-day.html[/url]
They are giving clues to us to prepare for coming fake alien invasion and world war 3
[QUOTE=Dickhead]I had many Chinese students over the years and while they excelled at mathematics, and were excellent students overall, they were not accustomed to independent thinking or unstructured problem solving. One incident that stands out in my mind was giving an extra credit story problem that could be solved using pure logic. They got all bogged down doing calculus and solving simultaneous equations. Not only couldn't they solve the problem but they couldn't understand the solution.
However I once taught a class where 100% of the students were Japanese and those students really sucked. No wonder that economy collapsed. I flunked so many of them on the first exam that I got a friendly visit from my Iranian department head, explaining me about all the culture differences I needed to consider. No. When in Rome do like a Roman or get the fuck out.
So if not China, who will be the next number one? Because the US is toast.[/QUOTE]I am with you on the logic part. I taught (and still teach) Chinese students. And it is no understatement to say that their logic is shocking. Things that I have seen/ noticed:
1. People here have the idea that if everyone doesn't believe something, then it is not true. So, if something goes down, then the first response of anyone in power will be to try to trick people into believing that it never happened. So, they had the milk scandal here a year or two back and the first official response was to try to cover it up. That way, if no one knew about it, then it didn't happen.
2. This school at which I have just finished my contract is 20,000RMB per year per student (that is about 8x the monthly salary of person who owns a barbecue stand). And in spite of all this, there is not a single heater in a single classroom. We were initially supposed to have an international program for students to take courses (Chemistry/ etc) in English. But there was so much bickering that the program collapsed. So, the school *did* buy heaters for those classrooms. But when the program closed, the school wanted the classrooms emptied. So, the only working heaters in any classrooms also happen to be in empty classrooms. Huh? And they would not hear of moving a working heater to the office (where Chinese staff work)
3. I was also playing on one of the pianos in the rooms here and noticed that between two windows was a space that you couldn't see very well. And if you looked at a certain angle, there were broken desks and trash piled up sky high. But you couldn't easily see it from inside the classroom. So, the reasoning was: "If no on can see it, then it is not there."
And on and on and on.
It is no understatement to me to say that if people in China have a choice between taking 2 steps to try to do something the right way and 5 to hatch some sort of plot, they will take 5 (or 10 or 15) steps to do something the WRONG way.
People have been talking at great length about the huge amounts of foreign investment here, but when I talk to people who owm small stores they will tell me *silly* amounts for start up capital. A store that is about 10 feet by 15 feet and sell drinks here in Sichuan has an initial investment cost of 60,000RMB!! (There is not even that much shit in the whole store.) The store next to that one said their initial start up costs were 90,000RMB. It seems like it takes almost $3 worth of investment to do something in China that it takes in the United States (or anywhere else I have ever seen/ been).
When you talk about teaching Japanese students, they are about the same as Chinese students. But it seems to me that at least Japanese people are thorough and consistent. Think about how much value can be created through reliability of different types (Japan) vs. the amount that can be destroyed by sloppiness/ inconsistency (China).
It's also interesting to question whether or not one really can predict a country's economic performance based on its educational system. The US is not very good at primary education, but I wonder does that really have that much to do with economic performance. I am reading now "The Bell Curve" and can say that it is far from clear.
One family, One bloodline, One rule..
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOnV1DDPQQg&feature=player_embedded[/url]
Watch how the same reptilians bloodline has been ruling the world since ancient times. Now even the gyneology is accepting what the conspiracy theorist said all time.
We never selected our leaders, all our heroes and anti heroes were Freemasons.
by david barboza
friday, january 8, 2010
provided by
the new york times
james s. chanos built one of the largest fortunes on wall street by foreseeing the collapse of enron and other highflying companies whose stories were too good to be true.
now mr. chanos, a wealthy hedge fund investor, is working to bust the myth of the biggest conglomerate of all: china inc.
as most of the world bets on china to help lift the global economy out of recession, mr. chanos is warning that china's hyperstimulated economy is headed for a crash, rather than the sustained boom that most economists predict. its surging real estate sector, buoyed by a flood of speculative capital, looks like "dubai times 1,000 -- or worse," he frets. he even suspects that beijing is cooking its books, faking, among other things, its eye-popping growth rates of more than 8 percent.
"bubbles are best identified by credit excesses, not valuation excesses," he said in a recent appearance on cnbc. "and there's no bigger credit excess than in china." he is planning a speech later this month at the university of oxford to drive home his point.
as america's pre-eminent short-seller -- he bets big money that companies' strategies will fail -- mr. chanos's narrative runs counter to the prevailing wisdom on china. most economists and governments expect chinese growth momentum to continue this year, buoyed by what remains of a $586 billion government stimulus program that began last year, meant to lift exports and consumption among chinese consumers.
still, betting against china will not be easy. because foreigners are restricted from investing in stocks listed inside china, mr. chanos has said he is searching for other ways to make his bets, including focusing on construction- and infrastructure-related companies that sell cement, coal, steel and iron ore.
mr. chanos, 51, whose hedge fund, kynikos associates, based in new york, has $6 billion under management, is hardly the only skeptic on china. but he is certainly the most prominent and vocal.
for all his record of prescience -- in addition to predicting enron's demise, he also spotted the looming problems of tyco international, the boston market restaurant chain and, more recently, home builders and some of the world's biggest banks -- his detractors say that he knows little or nothing about china or its economy and that his bearish calls should be ignored.
"i find it interesting that people who couldn't spell china 10 years ago are now experts on china," said jim rogers, who co-founded the quantum fund with george soros and now lives in singapore. "china is not in a bubble."
colleagues acknowledge that mr. chanos began studying china's economy in earnest only last summer and sent out e-mail messages seeking expert opinion.
but he is tagging along with the bears, who see mounting evidence that china's stimulus package and aggressive bank lending are creating artificial demand, raising the risk of a wave of nonperforming loans.
"in china, he seems to see the excesses, to the third and fourth power, that he's been tilting against all these decades," said jim grant, a longtime friend and the editor of grant's interest rate observer, who is also bearish on china. "he homes in on the excesses of the markets and profits from them. that's been his stock and trade."
mr. chanos declined to be interviewed, citing his continuing research on china. but he has already been spreading the view that the china miracle is blinding investors to the risk that the country is producing far too much.
"the chinese," he warned in an interview in november with politico.com, "are in danger of producing huge quantities of goods and products that they will be unable to sell."
in december, he appeared on cnbc to discuss how he had already begun taking short positions, hoping to profit from a china collapse.
in recent months, a growing number of analysts, and some chinese officials, have also warned that asset bubbles might emerge in china.
the nation's huge stimulus program and record bank lending, estimated to have doubled last year from 2008, pumped billions of dollars into the economy, reigniting growth.
but many analysts now say that money, along with huge foreign inflows of "speculative capital," has been funneled into the stock and real estate markets.
a result, they say, has been soaring prices and a resumption of the building boom that was under way in early 2008 -- one that mr. chanos and others have called wasteful and overdone.
"it's going to be a bust," said gordon g. chang, whose book, "the coming collapse of china" (random house), warned in 2001 of such a crash.
friends and colleagues say mr. chanos is comfortable betting against the crowd -- even if that crowd includes the likes of warren e. buffett and wilbur l. ross jr., two other towering figures of the investment world.
a contrarian by nature, mr. chanos researches companies, pores over public filings to sift out clues to fraud and deceptive accounting, and then decides whether a stock is overvalued and ready for a fall. he has a staff of 26 in the firm's offices in new york and london, searching for other china-related information.
"his record is impressive," said byron r. wien, vice chairman of blackstone advisory services. "he's no fly-by-night charlatan. and i'm bullish on china."
mr. chanos grew up in milwaukee, one of three sons born to the owners of a chain of dry cleaners. at yale, he was a pre-med student before switching to economics because of what he described as a passionate interest in the way markets operate.
his guiding philosophy was discovered in a book called "the contrarian investor," according to an account of his life in "the smartest guys in the room," a book that chronicled enron's rise and downfall.
after college, he went to wall street, where he worked at a series of brokerage houses before starting his own firm in 1985, out of what he later said was frustration with the way wall street brokers promoted stocks.
at kynikos associates, he created a firm focused on betting on falling stock prices. his theories are summed up in testimony he gave to the house committee on energy and commerce in 2002, after the enron debacle. his firm, he said, looks for companies that appear to have overstated earnings, like enron; were victims of a flawed business plan, like many internet firms; or have been engaged in "outright fraud."
that short-sellers are held in low regard by some on wall street, as well as main street, has long troubled him.
short-sellers were blamed for intensifying market sell-offs in the fall 2008, before the practice was temporarily banned. regulators are now trying to decide whether to restrict the practice.
mr. chanos often responds to critics of short-selling by pointing to the critical role they played in identifying problems at enron, boston market and other "financial disasters" over the years.
"they are often the ones wearing the white hats when it comes to looking for and identifying the bad guys," he has said.
[QUOTE=Chocha Monger]I am not sure about China ever becoming a great power. They have numerous problems to overcome like poisonous food products, environmental contamination, dangerous fake products and emerging diseases. Betting on China is like backing a jack ass in a horse race.
There is also the issue of barbarism.
[url]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-506153/Animals-torn-pieces-lions-baying-crowds-spectator-sport-China-DOESNT-want-see.html[/url][/QUOTE]Many of the things that the Chinese do is quite barbaric by Western standards and it would not surprise me to see the West in conflict with China. I also think Europe is going to take on a much stronger role in world affairs, the EU as a federal entity is now a reality, the next several years will be interesting. India is another country on the rise, I think it could be a good counter balance to China.
[QUOTE=Born Loser 5]One family, One bloodline, One rule..
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOnV1DDPQQg&feature=player_embedded[/url]
Watch how the same reptilians bloodline has been ruling the world since ancient times. Now even the gyneology is accepting what the conspiracy theorist said all time.
We never selected our leaders, all our heroes and anti heroes were Freemasons.[/QUOTE]
Born Loser 5:
There are a lot of these reptilian aliens on ISG. You can identify them easily. Aliens are anal probing freaks and you can spot them because they're always looking for anal sex. If you find yourself poking girls in the brown eye then you probably have some alien DNA in your bloodline.
[QUOTE=Chocha Monger]Born Loser 5:
There are a lot of these reptilian aliens on ISG. You can identify them easily. Aliens are anal probing freaks and you can spot them because they're always looking for anal sex. If you find yourself poking girls in the brown eye then you probably have some alien DNA in your bloodline.[/QUOTE]
:) Yes, Aliens and Illuminati are gays, look at the mind controlled hip hop artists almost all of them are gays. If one wants to become rich and famous...you not only have to sell your soul but your as*s too :)
Here is another link which proves why America was never a free country and it may sound ridiculous but Americans are the real unseen slaves of Satan.
[url]http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/atlantean_conspiracy/atlantean_conspiracy01.htm[/url]
01/21/2010
The World from Berlin
The World Bids Farewell to Obama
US President Barack Obama has had a difficult first year.
Zoom
AFP
US President Barack Obama has had a difficult first year.
US President Barack Obama suffered a painful defeat in Massachusetts on Tuesday. With mid-term elections looming, it means that Obama will have to fundamentally re-think his political course. German commentators say it is the end of hope.
US President Barack Obama has had a number of difficult weeks during his first year in the White House. Right after he took office, he had to wade through a week full of partisan bickering over his economic stimulus package combined with a tax scandal surrounding Tom Daschle, the man Obama had hoped would lead his health care reform team.
Then there was the last week of 2009, when a failed terror attack on a flight inbound for Detroit exposed major flaws in US efforts to identify and stop potential terrorists.
This week, though -- a week when Obama should have been celebrating the first anniversary of his inauguration -- may have been the president's worst yet. Scott Brown, an almost unknown Republican member of the Massachusetts Senate, defeated the Democratic candidate Martha Coakley for the US Senate seat vacated by the death of Senator Edward M. Kennedy. The defeat in a heavily Democratic state not only highlights Obama's massive loss of popular support during his first year in office, but it also could spell doom for his signature effort to reform the US health care system.
PHOTO GALLERY
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Photo Gallery: A Year in the Life of President Obama
There were immediate calls for a suspension of health care votes in the Senate until Brown is sworn in. The loss of the Massachusetts seat means that the Democrats no longer control the 60 Senate seats necessary to avoid a filibuster. Obama's reform package, which aims to provide health insurance to most of the over 40 million Americans currently lacking coverage, may ultimately fail as a result.
More than that, though, the vote shows just how quickly the political pendulum has swung back to the right following Obama's election. The seat Brown won had been in Democratic hands for all but six years since 1926. Now, its new occupant is a man who not only opposes the health care bill, but also favors waterboarding as a method of interrogation for terrorism suspects and rejects carbon cap-and-trade as a means of limiting carbon emissions.
The omen could be a dark one for the Obama administration heading into a mid-term election year. German commentators take a closer look.
Center-left daily Süddeutsche Zeitung writes on Thursday:
"Obama made a serious misjudgement. Right at the beginning of his first year in office, he saved the banks, rescued the automobile industry from collapse and passed a huge economic stimulus package. He had hoped that these enormous deeds would give him the space to address those issues which are dearest to him: health care reform, climate change and investment in education."
"Those issues, however, are clearly not priorities for people in the US at the moment. Scott Brown campaigned on two promises, both of which apparently struck a nerve with the electorate. He wants to block health care reform and he wants to find ways to reduce the enormous budget deficit. It is here where the roots of dissatisfaction with Obama are to be found. His reform agenda, in its current form, is highly suspect to Americans. And they have the impression that, if he continues piling up debt, he will be gambling away the country's future."
The Financial Times Deutschland writes:
"For Obama, the election in Massachusetts means that he will have to re-evaluate his political style. He could now focus his concentration on his political base and push through his policy agenda. After all, he still has a majority in Congress -- he could back away from his strategy of bipartisanship ... which would mean giving up much of what he spent his first year in office creating."
"More likely, however, is that Obama will interpret the Massachusetts loss as a signal that he should move further toward the middle and make more concessions to the conservatives -- even if this alienates his base even further, a base which had high expectations from the 'yes we can' candidate."
"For everyone else in the world, this means that they will have to bid farewell to a candidate for whom the hopes were so high. They will have to say goodbye to the charisma they fell in love with. Obama will be staying home after all."
The left-leaning daily Die Tageszeitung writes:
"In addition to health care reform, Obama's reputation has primarily been harmed by the high unemployment rate and the increasingly unpopular war in Afghanistan. It will become even more difficult in the future for the president to push projects through successfully. Not just because Republicans now have a means of preventing it, but also because the Democratic camp is deeply divided. Some would like to see the party shift toward the center -- wherever that may be -- whereas others want the party to position itself to the left. Such a battle is hardly a good sign for the mid-term elections in November. Massachusetts could prove to be an omen."
The center-right Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung writes:
"Of course the president rejects the interpretation that the Massachusetts election was a referendum on his first year in the White House. But he cannot ignore the fact that his health care reform package is not popular, the situation of the country's finances is seen as threatening and many voters blame the high unemployment rate on the party in power -- on the Democrats, led by Obama. The result is a second year in office full of very different challenges than the first. To save what there is to be saved, Obama will have to be prepared to fashion a bipartisan compromise on health care -- a compromise with a Republican Party which has tasted blood and can now dream once again about a return to power."
-- Charles Hawley
Social Networks
too much of a bad thing
who’s panting for obama speech number 412? exactly no one.
by mark steyn
so what went wrong? according to barack obama, the problem is he overestimated you dumb rubes’ ability to appreciate what he’s been doing for you. “that i do think is a mistake of mine,” the president told abc’s george stephanopoulos. “i think the assumption was if i just focus on policy, if i just focus on this provision or that law or if we’re making a good rational decision here, then people will get it.”
but you schlubs aren’t that smart. you didn’t get it. and barack obama is determined to see that you do. so the president has decided that he needs to start “speaking directly to the american people.”
wait, wait! come back! don’t all stampede for the hills! he only gave (according to cbs news’s mark knoller) 158 interviews and 411 speeches in his first year. that’s more than any previous president — and maybe more than all of them put together. but there may still be some show out there that didn’t get its exclusive obama interview — i believe the top-rated grain & livestock prices report — 4 a.m. update with herb torpormeister on wzzz-am dead buzzard gulch junction’s newstalk leader is still waiting to hear back from the white house.
but what will the president be saying in all these extra interviews? in that interview about how he hadn’t given enough interviews, he also explained to george stephanopoulos what that wacky massachusetts election was all about:
“the same thing that swept scott brown into office swept me into office,” said obama. “people are angry and they’re frustrated, not just because of what’s happened in the last year or two years but what’s happened over the last eight years.”
got it. people are so angry and frustrated at george w. bush that they’re voting for republicans. in massachusetts. boy, i can’t wait for that 159th interview.
presumably, the president isn’t stupid enough actually to believe what he said. but it’s dispiriting to discover he’s stupid enough to think we’re stupid enough to believe it.
so who’s panting for that 412th speech? not the american left. as paul krugman, the new york times’s “conscience of a liberal,” put it: “he wasn’t the one we’ve been waiting for.”
not the once-delirious europeans, either. as the headline in der spiegel put it: “the world bids farewell to obama.”
and not any beleaguered democratic candidates trying to turn things around in volatile swing states like, er, massachusetts. the barack obama who showed up last sunday to help out martha coakley was a sad and diminished figure from the colossus of a year ago. he had nothing to say, but he said it anyway. as he did with his copenhagen pitch for the olympics, he put his personal prestige on the line, raised the stakes, and then failed to deliver. all those cool kids on his speechwriting team bogged him down in the usual leaden sludge. he went to the trouble of flying in to phone it in.
the most striking aspect of his performance was how unhappy he looked, as if he doesn’t enjoy the job. you can understand why. he ran as something he’s not, and never has been: a post-partisan, centrist, transformative healer. that’d be a difficult trick to pull off even for somebody with any prior executive experience, someone who’d actually run something, like a state, or even a town, or even a commercial fishing operation, like that poor chillbilly boob sarah palin. at one point late in the 2008 campaign, when someone suggested that if governor palin was “unqualified” then surely he was too, obama pointed out as evidence to the contrary his ability to run such an effective campaign. in other words, running for president was his main qualification for being president.
that was the story of his life: wow! look at this guy! wouldn’t it be great to have him . . . as community organizer, as state representative, as state senator, as united states senator. he was wafted ever upwards, staying just long enough in each “job” to get another notch on the escutcheon, but never long enough to leave any trace.
the defining moment of his doomed attempt to prop up martha coakley was his peculiar obsession with scott brown’s five-year-old pickup:
“forget the ads. everybody can run slick ads,” the president told an audience of out-of-state students at a private school. “forget the truck. everybody can buy a truck.”
how they laughed! but what was striking was the thinking behind obama’s line: that anyone can buy a truck for a slick ad, that brown’s pickup was a prop — like the herd of cows al gore rented for a pastoral backdrop when he launched his first presidential campaign. or the iron chef tv episode featuring delicious, healthy recipes made with produce direct from michelle obama’s “kitchen garden”: the cameras filmed the various chefs meeting the first lady and then picking choice organic delicacies from the white house crop, and then for the actual cooking the show sent out for stunt-double vegetables from a grocery back in new york. viewed from obama’s perspective, why wouldn’t you assume the truck’s just part of the set? “in his world,” wrote the weekly standard’s stephen hayes, “everything is political and everything is about appearances.”
howard fineman, the increasingly loopy editor of the increasingly doomed newsweek, took it a step further. the truck wasn’t just any old prop but a very particular kind: “in some places, there are codes, there are images,” he told msnbc’s keith olbermann. “you know, there are pickup trucks, you could say there was a racial aspect to it one way or another.”
ah, yes. scott brown has over 200,000 miles on his odometer. man, he’s racked up a lot of coded racism on that rig. but that’s easy to do in notorious cross-burning kkk swamps like suburban massachusetts.
whenever aspiring writers ask me for advice, i usually tell ’em this:
don’t just write there, do something. learn how to shingle a roof, or tap-dance, or raise sled dogs. because if you don’t do anything, you wind up like obama and fineman — men for whom words are props and codes and metaphors but no longer expressive of anything real.
america is becoming a bilingual society, divided between those who think a pickup is a rugged vehicle useful for transporting heavy-duty items from a to b and those who think a pickup is coded racism.
unfortunately, the latter group forms most of the democrat-media one-party state currently running the country. can you imagine bill clinton being so stupid as to put down pickup trucks while standing next to john kerry? and what’s even more extraordinary is that those lines were written for obama by paid professionals.
but fine, have it your way. tuesday’s vote was really a plea by a desperate people for even more obama. we’re going to need even more obama teleprompters, even more obama speeches, even more sonorous banalities unrelated to action, even more “let me be clears” prefacing even more tinny generalities, on even more reams of even more double-spaced paper. and we’re gonna need a really heavy-duty rig to carry all that verbiage.
maybe scott brown can sell ’em his truck.
***WARNING*** to those living in America. You may wanna get out of America now as things are gonna get nasty. Especially folks living on 11 western states.
AR, OR or CA....Illuminati has planned the big one starting from Feb 1 up until Feb 14 2010 and to the end 2012. Its going to be really really hell. Earthquake or Financial collapse and then martial law and FEMA camps.
[url]http://illuminatimatrix.wordpress.com/49-december-19-55-days-before-2010-olympics-health-care-reform-bill-passes-merging-merying-marrying-the-health-care-reform-bill-climate-change-conference-frustrates-50-days-before-olympics/[/url]
Not to scare or fear monger.....I been following the illuminati stuff for some time and their plan for us is really hellish. Good Luck
Born Loser 5:
Are we to take a secret organization that apparently can’t keep any of its secret plans off the internet seriously? All these leaks of sinister secret plans on the internet would be an indication of gross incompetence on the part of any organization operating in the shadows. Wouldn’t people poking their noses into the business of such a powerful subversive group be made to disappear or, at least, confined to a mental institution?
By the way, did you hear the one about the Illuminati’s grand scheme to harvest the sperm of men living in and visiting Asia? Expect sperm extraction activities to intensify in places like the Philippines and Thailand peaking in 2012 when they will have enough to put their final plan into motion. Remaining celibate is the only way to avoid contributing your seed to the Illuminati’s final endgame.
A contributor to another board, who lives in a city that President Obama is visiting today, told of this sign held by a protester:
"Obama is Washington's Juan Peron"
That one hits too close to the bone - especially for anyone who knows more about Peronism than the song "Don't Cry For Me, Argentina."
Any comments?
[QUOTE=Chocha Monger]Born Loser 5:
Are we to take a secret organization that apparently can’t keep any of its secret plans off the internet seriously? All these leaks of sinister secret plans on the internet would be an indication of gross incompetence on the part of any organization operating in the shadows. Wouldn’t people poking their noses into the business of such a powerful subversive group be made to disappear or, at least, confined to a mental institution?
By the way, did you hear the one about the Illuminati’s grand scheme to harvest the sperm of men living in and visiting Asia? Expect sperm extraction activities to intensify in places like the Philippines and Thailand peaking in 2012 when they will have enough to put their final plan into motion. Remaining celibate is the only way to avoid contributing your seed to the Illuminati’s final endgame.[/QUOTE]
Conspiracy theorist were never wrong ever. Name one event where CT went wrong. They said ages ago about NWO, EU and collapse of US financial system. Fluoride in water and toothpaste ?
Its a real fact...Americans should seriously ask..
What the hell is a Pyramid with all seeing eye doing in American one dollar Bill ?..what does it mean...Does america have Pyramids?
What does Latin words in American dollar bill doing...is Latin the spoken language in America? what does order ab chao mean? what does Novas order seclorum mean?
When people start to ask why blood is the second most used word in bible after god...people start to see answers.
Why were all American presidents Freemasons? Why all Americans presidents are connected to Europeans royal families...Doesn't it ring a bell, that even president barak obama is linked to royals?
its occult...not secret.......they are dark magicians ..so they have a rule that..before they kill you...they need to tell you that they would..else the magic spells don't work. People use secret societies name for the word convenience. really they are sorcerers of Atlantis and aliens
They wrote the bible, khuran and every religious book ever written and now they are simply following it. we are trying to decipher what they told us and what their next move gonna be. its never perfect....its a war between us humanity and aliens.
John Todd, William cooper, fritz springmeir, rik clay were all killed by the Illuminati.
People still believe there is something called Islamic terrorism, when before 911..they used all the symbology from Simpsons to prince song that they are going to attack WTC on 911 .
They are doing the same now, using nuclear symbols in boom boom music to book of eli which shows post apocalyptic days.
Freemason are selling their buildings en mass in US. They have done with America. Now their work is to destroy it, and thats why all post apocalyptic movies.
Regarding mental institution John Todd was put into mental institution and then silenced for ever.
Start with One dollar bill description from Jordan Maxwell. These are stuff that will truly shake one person core belief.
[QUOTE=Westy]A contributor to another board, who lives in a city that President Obama is visiting today, told of this sign held by a protester:
"Obama is Washington's Juan Peron"
That one hits too close to the bone - especially for anyone who knows more about Peronism than the song "Don't Cry For Me, Argentina."
Any comments?[/QUOTE]
He is much much worse....he will crucify America...people really really really have no clue what Obama really is... until people start looking at his ancestry and his connection to Egypt..they are living in dark and will be sacrificed.
Lets ask ourself some facts ..lest we say ohh its conspiracy....What are the odds that Obama is connected to royal bloodlines in Egypt and Europe..when he was supposedly born to a simple white women in hawaii with a keynian father.
I mean common, what are the odds that, even with that simplicity, he is connected to Cheney and bush ...how convenient, for a man to live a simple life and then find out, he is connected to all the US presidents one way or the other and then become presidents himself...common...what are the odds here... do you think we are born yesterday..
I have been fu*8cking all my life all around the world and i ain't got any cousins no where who is connected to royal families in europe....i bet no one does in ISG either.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOnV1DDPQQg[/url]
I'm not making this up...you can do your own research and even Obama acknowledges that he is the cousin of Cheney. hell, he is even related to Hugh Hefner and brad pitt.
How is this co-incidence...everything fits perfectly and still the world goes to hell. Our life ain't getting better if it was a mere co-incidence after co-incidence which indecently works in their favor...its about time people should have a serious look around what the hell is really going on...
How could Obama be worse than Bush? Its obvious American's have an issue with Obama because of his skin color, if he was white with a name like Barry Dunham no one would have a problem with him. Australia is bad but America seems to be even worse.
[quote=australiasucks]how could obama be worse than bush? its obvious american's have an issue with obama because of his skin color, if he was white with a name like barry dunham no one would have a problem with him. australia is bad but america seems to be even worse.[/quote]not necessarily do people have a problem with obama's skin color. it could be some of his actual behavior (and even if it is his skin color, there could be a logical reason for it--more below). there is an author, thomas sowell (black man), whom i read all the time and who is very intelligent. his columns have never said anything positive about obama. then there is also larry elder (also a black man and much younger than sowell). he's also a conservative. if you read reason.com magazine or wsj, you will see that they have not been complimentary to the current president. what do all of those articles have in common? they have reasoned cases as to why they don't like him. just to give you an example of one of each (and won't synopsize too much with the assumption that if you really want to be informed you'll just to and look up these free/ public access articles):
1. sowell: among [i]many[/i] other things, he does not like the way that obama has chosen to compromise intelligence information by choosing to hold some of the guantanamo trials in the united states.
2. elder: he has talked about the health care bill in moderate depth (thought not as much as reason magazine) and noted that it is 2000 pages long and congress/ the president are trying very hard to obfurep001e its content by trying to ram it through.
3. reason magazine. they have written some much longer articles. i could point you to their discussion of his deceptive words used in discussing his "budget freeze"-- and how it has no basis in reality and is based on excessively optimistic projections.
4. wsj. there is a little bit each time. they talk about his ideas to make the income tax progressive (they seem to like flat taxes better-- and with this, i would concur).
another thing that you must consider (and you are not american, so you may never have even been to the states and even if you did you wouldn't notice something as specific as this) is that: whenever black american people are at the head of any city/ administrative structure, it is as good as finished. there have been many examples of where there was a functioning city somewhere in the states (detroit, michigan is right up the highway from where i grew up) was taken over by a black administration and promptly collapsed. ecorse. highland park. detroit. east st. louis. washington park. and that's just in the michigan/ illinois area. (yes, east st. louis is in illinois, and not missouri.) there are also places that are not quite under black control but have enough black people in them to go over the tipping point. that could be washington, dc-- which has something like the lowest educational results in the country but the #1 spending per capita. it also has the highest aids rate in the whole country-- and is coincidentally heavily black. don't even get started about the crime rate. and on and on and on......... everyone knows these things, but you can't say them in polite company-- even if it is almost too obvious to need elaboration.
i can go one step further and point out that there is no single city in the united states that was on the verge of collapse that was then taken over by black people who went about the business of developing it. but the other way around? examples aplenty.
don't you think that if you had paid for a house in the states and you earned your retirement money in us dollars, that you would be something like concerned about the administration of the country? does it make you a racist so to be? if you can find that you find black people and some problems associated with each other way too often to be accident, does it make you racist to acknowledge it?
i'll stop with an example that i read by steven landsburg. he talked about drug searches in some particular place along the stretch of highway (i believe that this was in his book "more sex is safer sex"), and that blacks were stopped at 4x the rate of whites-- but that both of them were found with drugs in equal measures. he said that then it *did* make better (economic) sense to stop blacks for searches more often than whites because they were carrying drugs [i]in spite of the higher chance of being stopped[/i]. it's not a leap of imagination to imagine that a higher percentage of blacks would be carrying drugs if they were stopped in proportion to their numbers in the population. and you can conclude that, yes, there are proportionally more things among some groups of people than others. so........if you see destroyed cities and black americans in proximity to each other, what does your economic reasoning tell you about balancing the cost of putting them in charge as an elected official against being color blind?
[url]http://reason.com/archives/2010/02/08/back-to-the-drawing-board[/url]
If the US is in trouble then Australia is screwed too, we have Asians taking us over. I don't hate them but do not want them changing our economy.
the president’s habit of telling untruths
matt welch from the april 2010 issue
here’s how predictable the president’s slippery relationship with the truth has become: hours before the state of the union address, washington examiner reporter timothy p. carney posted a “pre-emptive fact check” that, among other things, prebutted any presidential claim to have “stopped the revolving door between government and corporate lobbying.” as it happened, that night barack obama made an even bolder (read: less truthful) claim: that “we’ve excluded lobbyists from policymaking jobs.”
in fact, more than 40 former lobbyists work in the administration, including such policy makers as deputy defense secretary william j. lynn (who was lobbying for raytheon as recently as 2008), office of the first lady director of policy and projects jocelyn frye (national partnership for women and families), white house director of intergovernmental affairs cecilia muñoz (national council of la raza), and treasury secretary chief of staff mark patterson (goldman sachs).
when carney confronted a white house spokeswoman with the falsehood, she conceded nothing. “as the president said,” she wrote, “we have turned away lobbyists for many, many positions.” just not all of them.
as such defiance suggests, this was no isolated slip of the tongue. the president, who promised in both word and style to usher in a “new era” of washington “responsibility,” routinely says things that aren’t true and supports initiatives that break campaign promises. when called on it, he mostly keeps digging. and when obliged to explain why american voters are turning so sharply away from his party and his policies, obama pins the blame not on his own deviations from verity but on his failure to “explain” things “more clearly to the american people.”
take the issue he has explained more than any other: health care. in the state of the union address, obama claimed that the congressional budget office (cbo) had estimated that “our approach” to health care reform “would bring down the deficit by as much as $1 trillion over the next two decades.” this is, strictly speaking, not true. the democrats’ “approach” to health care reform includes a permanent change to the medicare reimbursement rates for doctors, colloquially known as the “doc fix.” the cbo estimated that the doc fix, when combined with the health care reform legislative package, actually “would increase the budget deficit in 2019 by $23 billion relative to current law, an increment that would grow in subsequent years.” this is why house democrats stripped out the doc fix from the health care bill, and passed it separately; it made the cbo scores look bad, making it harder for the president to present bogus claims about deficit neutrality.
that bit of mendacity only scratches the surface of how congress and the administration gamed the system to produce nice-looking numbers. the cbo, by its own rules, has to take congress at its word when a piece of legislation promises unspecified future “cuts” in spending, even though an overwhelming majority of promised future cuts never come to pass (a fact that the cbo itself has repeatedly warned in supplementary comments). the senate promised more than $300 billion in such cuts. furthermore, the cbo scores bills in 10-year windows. so the senate delayed more than 99 percent of the reform package’s spending until 2014, thus allowing the decade of 2010–2019 to clock in under the magic $1 trillion number. add to all that chicanery the fact that every major health care entitlement expansion in u.s. history has vastly exceeded initial cost projections, and you have ample reasons for why americans believed, by a margin of more than 3 to 1, that health care reform would exacerbate rather than improve the deficit.
even when addressing black-and-white examples of broken promises —such as his vow to televise each and every bit of health care legislative negotiations on c-span—obama can’t quite resist the temptation to plead gray. when confronted directly on the broken c-span pledge during a january meeting with gop lawmakers, the president said: “look, the truth of the matter is that if you look at the health care process—just over the course of the year—overwhelmingly the majority of it actually was on c-span, because it was taking place in congressional hearings in which you guys were participating.”
presidential defiance, dissembling, and disinformation are nothing new, even if such political perennials are more disappointing coming from someone who still boasts (as he did in the state of the union address) of “telling hard truths” to the american people and “doing what’s best for the next generation.” voters pretty much knew that bill clinton was a slime ball when they sent him to the white house; barack obama held out the promise of being more dignified.
the difference between these two most recent democratic presidents, substantial to begin with (especially in the crucial area of economic policy), may come into sharper relief in 2010. clinton’s reptilian relationship with the truth, suffused as it always has been with a catch-me-if-you-can sense of personal preservation, actually turned out to have some uses for the nation when he changed course after the 1994 republican revolution and began co-opting some of the limited-government policies proposed by his opponents. it’s easier for a chameleon to change his spots.
obama’s dishonesty, by contrast, seems to spring from a different place. as a man who has spent most of his career wowing people with his words and very little of it converting those words into deeds, he has an activist’s gap between rhetoric and reality and a radio broadcaster’s promiscuous carelessness with cutting rhetorical corners. sure, it’s not technically true that the administration’s day-one lobbying reforms served “to get rid of the influence of…special interests,” as he claimed in a january radio address (to the contrary: federal lobbying in 2009 set an all-time record), but it’s easy to imagine that the president feels his combination of tighter employment restrictions for ex-lobbyists and stricter disclosure requirements for current ones is, in the context of the manichean fight between “the people” and “special interests,” good enough for government work. the perfect shouldn’t be the enemy of the good, and the critics who complain are just opportunistic literalists grasping for any club to beat back the march of progress. no need to give them an inch.
but there’s a less charitable explanation too. during the president’s nonstop gabfests before, during, and after the state of the union speech, he kept repeating the fiction that the medical industry’s “special interests” were significantly to blame for scotching his health care legislation. in fact, the administration and congress negotiated with those interests every step of the way, receiving crucial buy-in and millions in campaign contributions. pro-reform lobbyists outspent anti-reform lobbyists on advertising by a factor of 5 to 1. there’s a three-letter word for blaming the defeat of his bill on health care lobbyists, and it rhymes with pie.
and yet it smacks of something worse still. when a politician cannot fathom opposition to his policies except as the manifestation of wicked manipulation by bad guys, remediable only by more thorough “explanations” from the good guys, it indicates an unseemly paternalism. and if he cannot take the hint that bush-obama bailout-and-spend economics are deeply and increasingly unpopular, that indicates something immovable about his core economic ideology. with those two factors as backdrop, it’s hard to say which would be worse: if the president didn’t really believe what he said, or if he did.
matt welch (matt.welch@reason.com) is editor in chief of reason.
ABC News, March 21, 2010:
The House of Representatives passed the sweeping health care bill 219-212, securing a significant victory for President Obama, who lobbied hard this week for the controversial legislation. [url=http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/HealthCare/health-care-bill-house-passes-sweeping-reform-legislation/story?id=10162080]Link here[/url]Despite protests, "tea parties," town-hall testimony, and the will of the American people, 219 of the "elected nobility" of the United States decided they knew better and passed this monstrosity. At least they did, evidently, have an up-and-down vote.
They don't need the Senate to sign off on their "reconciliation". I bet Emperor Obama, [i]ar-rahimi, ar-rahmani,[/i] is just waiting for a sunny day in the Rose Garden to put his regal imprimatur on the document - signing away one more "right," that to take care of your body as you see fit, in the interest of "compassion to the poor".
Yeah, I know, I know, the Kirchners are worse. [i]There are worse countries in the world, for personal freedom.[/i] But the sticking-point here isn't really "health care as we know it," it's the President and Congress chipping away at our liberties in the USA.
[QUOTE=Westy] It's the President and Congress chipping away at our liberties in the USA.[/QUOTE]
You are terribly wrong. The right wingers have used incorrect, scare tactics. It is every citizens right to proper affordable health care.
While we're on the topic of the Obama Admin. 131 Republicans voted against the stimulus package one year ago. These same 131 hypocrates have taken millions upon millions of the money for their state.
Republicans are not taking the majority interest of their constituents but waging a shameful revolt against the Democratic congress and American citizens. They are simply put sore (the original biggest) losers. They have been conducting themselves unbecoming of a civil servant at every democratic president since JFK. BTW, does anyone know Limbaugh's departure date for Costa Rica?
Change is happening but if you live outside the US, in many ways, the US is sinking in its reputation. In Australia, Kevin Rudd is aggressively pro China, pretty much betting Australia's future on Asia. Even the left wing New York Times finds it troubling. His predecessor John Howard, was fiercely pro America like most Australian leaders. America is less on the news in the US these days...at least for positive news. People pay more attention to Asia.
Obama is popular with ordinary people around the world, extremely popular in Australia where he is planning to visit but many world leaders know the reality. Sarkozy called Obama weak, and its clear that the US-Israeli relationship is fraying, Joe Biden's strong words are very uncharacteristic for an American leader. Since when does a Frenchman call an American President weak?
America's 'changing reputation' is, IMHO, quite a superficial thing and largely just an up-and-down with its main allies, including my own country. Bush symbolised many things that large proportions of allied countries find/found offensive - one-upmanship, aggressive foreign policies, big business conflicts of interest, massive support for Israel in spite of that country's human rights breaches, passionately held and intrusive religion, and so on. Obama's image is much softer on nearly every one of those, and skin colour is less of an issue to populations in America's allies than it is in America.
These things are superficial in the sense that they are soft data - opinions and so on - even when statistically evaluated as has been done on a number of occasions.
The more core issues only change slightly if at all and are only in part under the President's control, as in any democracy. One is world money. Financially, China is steadily rising in global power and influence, and due to much stronger forces than mere politics.
The second is the effects of foreign policy over the years. America, like my own country, is a shaper of nations. Sometimes with lots if good intent, or sometimes the good intent is little more than internal marketing, to it's own peoples and those of its allies. In most cases, less powerful countries are devastated, changed or destroyed, usually to the benefit of the allies and usually - beyond superficial niceties - with their power to determine their own future set back significantly. This 'shaping' - whether in the form of military bombardment or economic occupation and control - is usually apparent to people on the ground. Holding an 'opinion' on such forces is a luxury - mostly they are more concerned with basics like having enough food, not stepping on a landmine, and trying not to get ill in the absence of health-care. To like or not like America other 'big players' frequent comes down to trying to manipulate aid packages to least disadvantage or trying to stay invisible.
Europe (including the country where I live most of the time) has long done absolution of generations for it's crimes against humanity associated with colonisation. These days, it is often judged on how much it supports or dissociates from the far more influential American policy. Europeans are less protected from the atrocities committed by their own governments than the U.S.A., but most of it still goes by most people unless they engage in extensive non-tourist travel and try to understand from the grass roots up (or the economically marginalised or natural resources removed or the napalmed or bombed or landmined or petty-dictator-installed interferences by CIAs, Mossads, MI6s, Vaticans - and that's before even considering beginners like the militant Islamic would-be shapers or big-business Christian fundamentalists).
So why should America care what other nations think of it? It is not, for instance, reliant on tourism. Every country has to deal with a level of corruption, incompetency, or simply bad calls in its government. Does it suck to be ashamed of one's country? Of course it does. But each if us has only limited abilities to change things. Other than that we should be patriotic (without bashing other countries) or emigrate to somewhere else.
It's difficult at times to reconcile the good and the bad things about one's country. To not make judgements about oneself or others. To avoid the blame game. The thing we are good at in the 'West' - America, Europe, Australia - is material accomplishment. The discipline to get things done. To engineer raw materials into the necessities of physical survival. But the pressures of doing so are often a big distraction from everything else. In many poor countries, places where the material side of things is less well accomplished, there is also less distraction. You either have enough food or you don't - simpler equations. What these nations are often very good at are the less material things. Knowing oneself, being able to communicate openly with others. Being able to smile just for the joy of living, of being alive, or of the company of another. This is also a good space to develop things like deeply held values, ideals, positive things. The West often finds these things difficult, even after putting lots of energy into them. When that is lacking, the human spirit looks for substitute joy, substitute ecstacy. Many parts of Europe have problems with teenage drunkenness. Or football madness/hooliganism. In America, people turn to new brands of religion or drugs to replace that inner sense of joy in living which is absent. Australia struggles to find a sense of important goals and values (beyond, say, going down the beach for a barbie - which by the way is nice of course). East and West are both full of strengths snd full of weaknesses. Like the 'battle of the sexes', too much energy is often spent defending one's own corner instead of genuinely trying to see things from a totally different perspective.
Many mongers go abroad as tourists, alone or with buddies, and take their own country in a protective 5-star bubble around them. Some want to go a bit further and, in seeking out p4p, develop a real interest in the countries they visit and the new perspectives. They learn new things about themselves and (the pay check calling) take them back to their own country, enriched by the experience.
Yes, I maybe hear you say, but what about the thousands of 'third-worlders' that come to western countries but end up staying. It would be more helpful if they came to the West to learn useful material skills and took those skills home to regenerate the material welfare if their own country ([I]useful ones[/I] - not bomb-making or how to lay landmines - we unfortunately export those without any effort on their part).
I quite agree. :)
You should spend time in Australia for an extended period of time, its not going to be "Western" for much longer. Most white Aussies are backward bogans these days, white Australia is at a moral collapse, high rates of stupidity. The most forward thinking group in Australia right now are the Chinese, they will eventually eclipse Anglo Aussies as the dominant group.
In the US, you have issues with Spanish speaking immigration, I spent a few years on the West Coast, traveled also to the East and quite a few places, its a well known fact that many Euro Americans do not like Hispanics. If that is false, please explain the Minutemen and all those other xenophobe movements. Australia had a xenophobe by the name of Pauline Hanson who tried to stir up anti Asian sentiment in the 1990s, she failed, she now left Australia. From what I know, the US will be majority Spanish speaking in a couple of decades, especially the Southwest. You cannot survive in Miami speaking English, cannot even clean toilets. Third worlders coming to the West? The West is fucked, get used to it. We dug our own grave.
[QUOTE=Australiasucks] its a well known fact[/QUOTE]
The United States is a country based on law. That is, the only thing that ultimately defines you as American is essentially legal. You can be a Russian-speaking native of Homer, Alaska or an Italian-speaking native of Boston's North End; the thing that holds you together, unlike many countries, is a fragile definition based on paper. This is the crux of why "Minutemen" have a problem with anyone who is in the United States illegally.
This is not to argue your point "its a well known fact that many Euro Americans do not like Hispanics". Many Hispanics do not like Euro Americans. Many people in Group X do not like Group Y. Many in Group Y do not like Group B. And so on. Embracing your point, I'd say it applies across all people and across time. The United States is dedicated to the idea that people are created equal, endowed with rights which are not the product of government, but the product of something more profound. Something which transcends your tribe.
I think you are also right on this point, things change. It's entirely true the United States today is not going to be the same in 100 years. At least if history shows us anything. If you look at how things were in 1910 and 1810, you find vast differences in the culture, economy, society, politics, morality, music, law. So, it should not surprise anyone to imagine the country will be much different over time. But it's not always clear how things are going to shift.
If, 500 years ago if you had said, "obviously China is going to be the dominant force in global history and culture over the coming 500 years", you could have mustered many facts and put together a very convincing argument. Certainly, you would have been in a much better position than anyone saying that Indian or Arab culture (the next most obvious choices) would dominate. If you had suggested that, say, England would really shape things the most, with Spain, France, Italy, Germany, Russia rounding out the pack, well, people would have thought you were joking or not quite right in the head. Hopefully, someone would politely change the subject.
Not me. You might notice I mentioned Spain above. Spain and Spanish culture is Western. Goya. Cervantes. Magellan. I'd just caution you if you think the United States will change radically if it becomes more "Latin" (or, frankly, even Mandarin). It might be different, but it's not obvious to me how it would be different. I would not want to predict and I don't figure I will give a hoot in 100 years anyway.
Well the analysis I see from the behavior of most your countrymen during the town hall "debates" is anything to go by, America is becoming more ungovernable. People were bringing guns to debates? Tea parties?? WTF.
Forget about the next 100 years, American influence will decline substantially over the next 20 years. Many people thought Obama was going to be America's Superman. Rolling Stone even had a picture of Obama as "A New Hope" alluding to him being Luke Skywalker. Whatever. The people in your country are the ones who make it run, the leadership is there to govern and guide and they, both parties, are doing everything possible to polarize America like nothing before.
I lived in America during the late 1990s, had a great experience but packed my bags after the tech crash in 2000. There are many similarities between the US and Australia, many are quite obvious. Both are democratic, both are built by immigrants and their descendants. In some ways America accommodates immigrants better, in some ways its Australia, I used to see people with mortgages and cars in California who could not speak a word of English and lived there for decades. Then again people just off the boat in Australia have access to our social services. Australians tend to be more passive in life, most people in Australia do not care that Oz is becoming an Asian country. They largely look on it as a good thing, for our pocketbooks it has been very good. Americans are more pro-active, hence the very vigorous debate about immigration in the US.
That being said, I think life will go on in America, and it will in Australia, but things will be different. For much of the 20th Century, America was the center of attention for the planet, its starting to lose this. Even in Australia, I see a lot more about Asia on the news than the US.
The real reason Euro Americans do not like Hispanics is due to the fact that many do not integrate into mainstream America and form parallel communities, also they tend to compete with working class whites and other Americans for jobs, I know African Americans who do not like them as well because of this. I spent five years in California, and I think I know what I am talking about. Also in many border states, working class whites have to compete with Mexicans, and the Mexicans take jobs for lower pay, pushing wages down. Working class Aussies do not really compete with any illegals, even a truck driver can earn about 120k a year. I also vividly remember when you call a business in the US you have to press 1 for English 2 for Spanish. WTF??? In that case why not accommodate the other non Anglo people? Asians, and others in the US, who wind up learning English.
[quote]The real reason Euro Americans do not like Hispanics is due to the fact that many do not integrate into mainstream America and form parallel communities, also they tend to compete with working class whites and other Americans for jobs, I know African Americans who do not like them as well because of this. I spent five years in California, and I think I know what I am talking about. Also in many border states, working class whites have to compete with Mexicans, and the Mexicans take jobs for lower pay, pushing wages down. Working class Aussies do not really compete with any illegals, even a truck driver can earn about 120k a year. I also vividly remember when you call a business in the US you have to press 1 for English 2 for Spanish. WTF??? In that case why not accommodate the other non Anglo people? Asians, and others in the US, who wind up learning English.[/quote]
I believe you may be quite correct
I also believe it may in fact be down to a confusion of policies. Most Western countries are quite comfortable materially and don't have to worry about real 'values.' One of the values that easily slips down the drain is any sense of nationhood, true patriotism. I don't mean flag-waving and endless rhetoric about 'our great nation.' But the sort of non-antagonistic pride that flows from self-knowledge and pride in one's own integrity.*
Consequently, immigration policies lack clear guidance. They are based on economic considerations without considering the essential qualities that gives people of any nation a sense of 'home' (and yet which vary from nation to nation). They are then dressed up with some human rights verbiage.
Asian immigrants often have a non-material advantage: their goals, whether laudable or not (and usually they are), means they are very focussed, and compete in the market place through dint of inner fortitude honed by years of material privation. (Not all Asian nations - Cambodians, for instance, happily treasure the ability to lie in a hammock while their immigrants develop the marketplace with hard work.)
The remedy is to get in touch with one's country's roots, separate out that which is wholesome from that which is pernicious, and adhere to the wholesome roots that are still relevant, as far as it is one's individual will to to so.
In America's case, this would mean exemplifying enterprise, creating big projects from tiny beginnings, but also ditching the neckchain of market-force religion that destroys it's power to think, act, even aspire, in a manner that is wholly from the heart (rather than some psychologically impregnated persona they call Christ). In other words, not likely to happen - not for a hundred years or so at least. So in terms of this generation, the US is a sinking ship unless you are a martyr to the future generations of the truly free.
One either has to love one's country, try to change it, or leave. There aren't really any other healthy options.
But the difficulty of even discussing this is that an American identifies very strongly with his country anyway - much more than a European or probably even an Australian. So any criticism of the system or judgement on the country is often taken as a personal affront rather than just a single academic observation that can be examined unemotionally. We will digress with the logical error of saying that 'many problems belong to other countries as well,' which is true, but sidesteps an issue too sensitive to raise. One has maybe to bear in mind that the U.S. is an enormous country, and many of its citizens have little or no idea of what it is like from a true external perspective (something I frequently hear from solo American travellers.) How can we discuss American greatness without bowing down in worship, without silencing constructive thoughts that are expressed only from a genuine love and respect of all that is good in America. For many decent Americans, even the thought is taboo.
*And we shouldn't forget that the untapped experience of subdued nations (such as American Indians and Australuan Aboriginees), as well as the influence of invading hoardes / immigrants, peaceful or otherwise, may provide a robust regeneration of essential values - though one doubts that the Sabine Women would agree. ;)
[QUOTE=Australiasucks]Well the analysis I see from the behavior of most your countrymen during the town hall "debates" is anything to go by, America is becoming more ungovernable. People were bringing guns to debates? Tea parties?? WTF.[/QUOTE]
Well, Americans have the right to assemble (#1 in our Bill of Rights) and bear arms (#2 in our Bill of Rights). So, there's some irony in your using this as an example of ungovernable America. :)
[QUOTE=Australiasucks]
The real reason Euro Americans do not like Hispanics is due to the fact that many do not integrate into mainstream America and form parallel communities, also they tend to compete with working class whites and other Americans for jobs, I know African Americans who do not like them as well because of this. [/QUOTE]
I can't claim to be an expert on why people hate, I'd suggest hate looks for any reason, and besides my point wasn't about racism, it was about U.S. immigration policy.
If you hold racist or ethnic stereotyping are the main issue here you have to say 'Euro Americans' generally stereotype foreign workers as having extra motivation, providing better value, willing and able to do "dirty" or seasonal work. Otherwise there would not be a market for foreign labor; think Japan. Obviously, the overwhelming marketplace of Americans are sympathetic (or at least ambivalent) toward immigrants, respect the fact they will hustle to do the work when other Americans don't seem to be so motivated. Many Americans identify with people who work hard and produce quality work.
As I mentioned, the reason immigration policy has gravity is that it plays against ideas about American identity and law. You could go read some of the material from say, the Center for Immigration Studies, if you want a more informative view of the 'more restrictive' side of the debate.
I have to sum up, you have a very American quality to you. Stereotypically, it's classic vulgar Americana to present yourself as an expert on a foreign country to a native of that country. "Let me tell you about your country"
So at least you've got that going for you. ;)
I spent times on both sides of the Pacific, I think Americans deep down have been sympathetic towards immigrants but I have noticed a very strong patriotic jingoist streak that has led to the minute man movement, the tea party movement is almost identical. There is a tiny movement against immigrants in Australia but its head left the country and its pretty much inactive. If I compared Australia to America today, Australia is a lot more immigrant family, and immigrants make up a larger percent of Australia's population than the US. Both countries though are more friendly towards immigrants than say Europe. Conditions are also different, Australia is largely empty, its ordinary citizens have much better economic and social protections than the average American and hence they tend to be more slack. In America, you have little protection(low minimum wage and your healthcare system only cares for with insurance), so hence any newcomer who succeeds is seen as a threat, so in that case both legal and illegal immigrants are cast into the same pot. There are plenty of Australian and British illegals in the US, but they do not experience the kind of social separation that their darker skinned counterparts experience.
Very disturbing article on US prisons, which has the highest number of prisoners in the world and how blacks are systematically targeted as criminals.
Interesting fact: Under apartheid in south africa, there were less number of blacks in prison than they are currently in US prisons under so called freedom and democracy.
[url]http://newilluminati.blog-city.com/america_behind_bars_the_usa_prison_state.htm[/url]
1. I am not sure what you are saying. South Africa has 49 million people. The US has 302 million. So, the same rate of imprisonment would still mean that there were 6 times more people in prison in the US than in RSA.
2. RSA has more black people infected with HIV than any other place in the world. So, is their democracy any worse (given that there will be a lot more dead black people and a lot more lost years of life)?
3. "...imprisoning 73 out of 1,000 people...." so you really mean to tell me that 7.3% of the population is behind bars? 21 million people. Twice the population of Michigan? The numbers don't add up. Later in the article, it says 376/ 100,000 whites, 997/100,000 Latinos, 2,526/100,000 Blacks. None of those numbers is anywhere near 73/1,000 (the first figure that the article quotes).
4. "Prison Industrial Complex......." Oh my God. Here were go again. Noam CHomsky has coined that phrase and it just WON'T die. It everything is a "X---Industrial complex." Not sure what it means, since there are MANY easier ways to make money than prisons.
I believe that you want to do some reading about the War on Drugs (which accounts for something like ALL of the differential in prison rates. The last book that I read about the War on Drugs was by Jeffery Miron (and I am planning on reading a couple more within the next few months), and he demonstrated the huge effects of drug laws on the prison population.
There is much more, but since the article is very obviously just agitprop, I can't be bothered to do a more thorough dissection. Life is too short.
[QUOTE=Clandestine782]1. I am not sure what you are saying. South Africa has 49 million people. The US has 302 million. So, the same rate of imprisonment would still mean that there were 6 times more people in prison in the US than in RSA.
2. RSA has more black people infected with HIV than any other place in the world. So, is their democracy any worse (given that there will be a lot more dead black people and a lot more lost years of life)?
3. "...imprisoning 73 out of 1,000 people...." so you really mean to tell me that 7.3% of the population is behind bars? 21 million people. Twice the population of Michigan? The numbers don't add up. Later in the article, it says 376/ 100,000 whites, 997/100,000 Latinos, 2,526/100,000 Blacks. None of those numbers is anywhere near 73/1,000 (the first figure that the article quotes).
4. "Prison Industrial Complex......." Oh my God. Here were go again. Noam CHomsky has coined that phrase and it just WON'T die. It everything is a "X---Industrial complex." Not sure what it means, since there are MANY easier ways to make money than prisons.
I believe that you want to do some reading about the War on Drugs (which accounts for something like ALL of the differential in prison rates. The last book that I read about the War on Drugs was by Jeffery Miron (and I am planning on reading a couple more within the next few months), and he demonstrated the huge effects of drug laws on the prison population.
There is much more, but since the article is very obviously just agitprop, I can't be bothered to do a more thorough dissection. Life is too short.[/QUOTE]
Are you denying that US does not have the largest prison population in the world.
[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/world/americas/23iht-23prison.12253738.html[/url]
Its the ratio with the population with south Africa and US..or i din't want to go to compare it with China. Which been communist and one hand rule does not have that much prisoners than US.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States[/url]
[url]http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/censusstatistic/a/aaprisonpop.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/30/AR2006113000912.html[/url]
My whole point being, the facade of being the light bringer of the world, peace and freedom, does not quite add up to the numbers. People get put up in jail for petty offences and small drug related charges.
[QUOTE=Born Loser 5]Are you denying that US does not have the largest prison population in the world.
[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/world/americas/23iht-23prison.12253738.html[/url]
Its the ratio with the population with south Africa and US..or i din't want to go to compare it with China. Which been communist and one hand rule does not have that much prisoners than US.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States[/url]
[url]http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/censusstatistic/a/aaprisonpop.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/30/AR2006113000912.html[/url]
My whole point being, the facade of being the light bringer of the world, peace and freedom, does not quite add up to the numbers. People get put up in jail for petty offences and small drug related charges.[/QUOTE]1. Well, I am not sure how many people are in prison in China. They have a lot of "black jails" here that are off the record.
2. What on earth does it have to do with me that other people are in jail for drug related offenses? Especially when the laws about drugs are very clear. I am 150% in favor of the legalization of drugs (but that is not the story).
3. Is there an issue at all here? I know that these neo-hippies who have never left university life are ALWAYS looking for something with which to flagellate the US. But if the issue is that there are too many people in prison, are you looking for a discussion of which laws could be modified to lower the prison population (and that would definitely be the drug laws) or are you just looking for something to ***** about?
Ok, so about 4 minutes of life wasted on answering a post. More than enough.......
[QUOTE=Clandestine782]1. Well, I am not sure how many people are in prison in China. They have a lot of "black jails" here that are off the record.
2. What on earth does it have to do with me that other people are in jail for drug related offenses? Especially when the laws about drugs are very clear. I am 150% in favor of the legalization of drugs (but that is not the story).
3. Is there an issue at all here? I know that these neo-hippies who have never left university life are ALWAYS looking for something with which to flagellate the US. But if the issue is that there are too many people in prison, are you looking for a discussion of which laws could be modified to lower the prison population (and that would definitely be the drug laws) or are you just looking for something to ***** about?
Ok, so about 4 minutes of life wasted on answering a post. More than enough.......[/QUOTE]
LOL ....you are taking it too personally chill ....did i ever say, the post was meant for clandetstine...you decided to reply..its just a simple post...relax.....go back to your wonderful life...i'm sorry to have wasted 4 minutes of your precious life
**Shocking video**
The Largest Street Gang in America
[url]http://eclipptv.com/viewVideo.php?video_id=7086[/url]
Are you kidding? You want an America without the police? Frankly speaking, your country needs a good police force. I see the opposite problem in Australia, where due to wholesale third world immigration, our crime rate is now worse than yours, yes you are more likely to be beaten or robbed on a Sydney street than on one in LA. The police here have no power whatsoever to enforce the law, in one area of Sydney, a local gang shot up the police station.
This is 'american politics'. But what do people think of muslims in europe.... and america.
Sorry to barge in, guys. I know this isn't strictly on topic, but it's closer to American Politics than it is to American Women.
[QUOTE=Dickhead]This is a poverty issue, not a single parent issue. There's a positive correlation between being a single parent and being poor, but which came first, the chicken or the egg? The poverty is the chicken and the single parenthood is the egg, and not the other way around, I became convinced by my empirical research.[/QUOTE]
I come from a well-respected middle- (bordering on upper-) class family. I hold the dubious honour of being the first, in many generations, to be a teenage parent, to get a divorce and to raise my children alone. Aside from blatant stupidity on my part, I think my geographic location was a primary influence. Growing up in a small rural community, I had limited sex education in school and no negative role models. It's interesting that when I became pregnant at 16, a number of 'respectable' local women confided in me that they had also been teenage mothers. Apparently it was an open secret that everyone knew, but nobody talked about. I can't help but think that if I had witnessed the hardships of teen parenthood as a child, I might have given more consideration to the risk of pregnancy.
[QUOTE=Dickhead]In the long run, the money directed at "aid to families with dependent children" or whatever you want to call it, might be better spend on education, training, and job creation.[/QUOTE]
I couldn't agree with you more on this one. This concept is given a lot of lip service by the Oz Government, but it just doesn't work in practice. The problem is that they have no understanding (due to a lack of adequate consultation) about the realities of single parenthood. In most cases, our current education and employment strategies actively PREVENT single mothers participating.
There are a million problems with the current system, but the biggest is that it doesn't take into account the COST of employment. A sole parent can stay at home and raise their child (which, I might add, is a very important job in itself) and receive $350 per week in benefits. If she/he starts working, to earn that same $350 they have to pay for fuel, car maintenence, parking, lunches, uniforms, education and training, etc. And, of course, the big killer...childcare.
As an example, Oz single parents lose their benefits - and all rebates and allowances, including the childcare rebate - once they earn over $700 per week. Childcare with NO rebates, for one child, costs almost $400 per week. On school holidays, 13 weeks of the year, it can skyrocket to over $600 per week. Add employment expenses to that, and single parents are much worse off working than they are staying at home. Also, keep in mind that $700 per week is the upper level of Australian female income. The chances of a single mother earning that amount, or more, is slim to none. The reality is that most single parents will be in low-paid part-time or casual work, leaving them even MORE disadvantaged.
Governments simply MUST understand that single parents do not have the choice of having one parent stay at home with the kids...childcare is a necessity and a legitimate work expense. I believe that the first step in fixing this problem is that childcare needs to be FREE for single parents.
Ok, so the Government would be paying out massive amounts in childcare each year, but look at how much they could save in the long run. Single parents would be paying tax and it could help to break the cycle of poverty, with children of single parents getting a decent education and growing up knowing the value of work. Also, there would be less children roaming the streets and committing crime while Mum is at work (because she left them at home alone, because she couldn't afford childcare).
Sorry for the long-winded reply, but as someone who has personally headbutted this brick wall for 17 years, it's an issue close to my heart. Over the years I've had to quit two jobs, both of which I loved, because it wasn't financially viable for me to stay. It's no fun living on benefits, but it's even harder living on LESS than benefits! I started hooking because it was the only way I could afford to pay for childcare AND living expenses AND past debts AND still be a proper mother to my children.
[QUOTE=Furysys]Yes, at some point single mothers should get some support from the state, but where does support end and incentive begin?[/QUOTE]
On the one hand, I firmly believe that being a stay at home mother (or father) is an incredibly important role for children and for society, so I think parents who WANT to take this option should be supported to do so. There are many reasons why children grow up in a single-parent household - maybe Dad did a runner, maybe Mum wanted to do it on her own, or maybe it was just an everyday marriage breakup. Either way, it wasn't the child's fault and they shouldn't be punished for it. A sole parent should be supported to raise their children to the best of their ability.
In Australia we have a massive workforce shortage and it's only going to get worse in coming years. Our Government is so afraid of the financial consequences of this shortage that they've started paying money for women to have children. Problem is, only women in lower socio-economic brackets are doing it. Many Australians see this as a bad thing, but I don't. Some women will always choose a career over children, and others will always stay home and have babies. The babies the Government wanted are being produced. The only 'bad thing' is that most of them are being born into poverty.
If these women want to have babies, and these babies will circumvent the impending workforce crisis, then I say LET THEM. Pay them an adequate income to properly feed, house and educate these kids and they will become the taxpayers of the future. Force them to raise their kids in poverty and we will have endless generations of poor people to support. Welfare should always be viewed in 'big picture' terms, not as a short-term measure.
On the other side of the equation, for sole parents who WANT to enter the workforce, there should definitely be more incentives. Getting ahead as a single mother is extremely difficult, if not impossible. Free childcare, as I explained below, would be a very good start.
Again, Government support should not be viewed in the short-term. Rather than saying "This single mother is costing us a fortune in welfare payments and childcare", we should be saying "This single mother might cost us a lot, but her children and her children's children will be healthy, educated, taxpaying citizens, who will EARN us a lot in the future".
[QUOTE=Rubber Nursey]On the one hand, I firmly believe that being a stay at home mother (or father) is an incredibly important role for children and for society, so I think parents who WANT to take this option should be supported to do so. There are many reasons why children grow up in a single-parent household - maybe Dad did a runner, maybe Mum wanted to do it on her own, or maybe it was just an everyday marriage breakup. Either way, it wasn't the child's fault and they shouldn't be punished for it. A sole parent should be supported to raise their children to the best of their ability.
In Australia we have a massive workforce shortage and it's only going to get worse in coming years. Our Government is so afraid of the financial consequences of this shortage that they've started paying money for women to have children. Problem is, only women in lower socio-economic brackets are doing it. Many Australians see this as a bad thing, but I don't. Some women will always choose a career over children, and others will always stay home and have babies. The babies the Government wanted are being produced. The only 'bad thing' is that most of them are being born into poverty.
If these women want to have babies, and these babies will circumvent the impending workforce crisis, then I say LET THEM. Pay them an adequate income to properly feed, house and educate these kids and they will become the taxpayers of the future. Force them to raise their kids in poverty and we will have endless generations of poor people to support. Welfare should always be viewed in 'big picture' terms, not as a short-term measure.
On the other side of the equation, for sole parents who WANT to enter the workforce, there should definitely be more incentives. Getting ahead as a single mother is extremely difficult, if not impossible. Free childcare, as I explained below, would be a very good start.
Again, Government support should not be viewed in the short-term. Rather than saying "This single mother is costing us a fortune in welfare payments and childcare", we should be saying "This single mother might cost us a lot, but her children and her children's children will be healthy, educated, taxpaying citizens, who will EARN us a lot in the future".[/QUOTE]That is true, part of the reason why the Australian government is offering money to single mothers is to prevent population decline. They are also countering this by increasing immigration from countries with high fertility rates, such as in Asia. Seeing what Sydney looks like these days, it would not surprise me if Australia became a majority Asian country in the next 20 years or so. The Australian government places the Asian population of Australia at around 9 percent, I think the real number is more than double, realistically triple that. The character of Australian cities has changed considerably since I came here nearly 10 years ago, when it seemed like the UK in the South Pacific, now its more like North America.
The US is looking the other way on illegal immigration for the same reasons on the federal level at least. Most other Western nations are facing the same issues. In Europe there has been massive immigration from the Middle East and its come with considerable controversy. But this all stems from the same impending problem, a declining and aging population and its potential deleterious effects on the economy.
[QUOTE=Australiasucks]...Part of the reason why the Australian government is offering money to single mothers is to prevent population decline. They are also countering this by increasing immigration from countries with high fertility rates, such as in Asia. The US is looking the other way on illegal immigration for the same reasons on the federal level at least. But this all stems from the same impending problem, a declining and aging population and its potential deleterious effects on the economy.[/QUOTE]Since this thread [i]is[/i] "American Politics," I'm too tempted to interject an American-political "confusion of issue" on "illegal immigration to the USA" ... some prominent "right-wing pundit" entertainers, including Rush Limbaugh, are voicing the opinion that our current Administration and Congress view these illegal immigrants as "undocumented Democrats...."
:D
Joking aside, we have brought this "graying trend" upon ourselves, and I acknowledge myself as part of this problem. I didn't strive, in my youth, for a "place in the gene pool" - meaning, I didn't go forth and marry and have children - and now I'm old enough to figure I'd literally have to spend the rest of my natural life raising any children that I could sire. And I don't want to do that, even if I moved to a land where I could easily find a lovable chica who wanted my children.
I notice a lot of "Yank-bashing" in ISG and other forums. I myself have bemoaned the way the country of my birth is "going to hell in a bucket," and yes, I'm looking to emigrate from the USA when the time is right.
The USA isn't the only country that comes in for some bashing in these pages and in the world press. But, still...
If the USA is so bad, why are people immigrating to the USA in such droves? (Formal and "informal" - I use "informal" as a PC version of "illegal")
If Australia sucks, why are so many people trying to immigrate to Australia?
If you're [i]not[/i] a citizen of the USA or Australia, how does your homeland rank among desirable destinations for immigration? If you aren't living there now, why not? And what do you prefer about the country where you're living?
As I said, these are rhetorical questions. I'm not looking for an argument, and there are no "wrong" answers. But it could make an interesting discussion.
[QUOTE=Westy]
If the USA is so bad, why are people immigrating to the USA in such droves? (Formal and "informal" - I use "informal" as a PC version of "illegal")
If Australia sucks, why are so many people trying to immigrate to Australia?
[/QUOTE]
I think you have to look at who's immigrating and emmigrating. Most people who are able to retire outside the USA know what other countries are like and what is out there. (have money and education...which I would think that the majority of people who come here have both).
Now the people that are coming in droves to the USA I would also argue are majority poor from worse off countries 'sold' on the american dream. When they get here they will realize it's crap!
To all Americans reading this thread.
Don't accept the scare tactics currently being transmitted over audio air waves and television. These people and so-called party members are so disappointed we have a Democratic President different than any previously elected while Congress is also Democratic, they are trying to create fear and hatred in this nation unbecoming in our history.
Remember one highly important factor. Under President Clinton's last four years in office, we had the greatest prosperity since the early 1960s and a monetary surplus in the Treasury. It took an incompetent individual from Texas to destroy whatever positive steps were taken during his previous administration. The current Administration can not create miracles within 1½-2 years after 8 years of mismanagement.
[QUOTE=Jon32]I think you have to look at who's immigrating and emmigrating. Most people who are able to retire outside the USA know what other countries are like and what is out there. (have money and education...which I would think that the majority of people who come here have both).
Now the people that are coming in droves to the USA I would also argue are majority poor from worse off countries 'sold' on the american dream. When they get here they will realize it's crap![/QUOTE]The immigration patterns between Australia and the US are quite different. Australia like Canada uses a skilled points based system, they assess you based on your potential to contribute. The US is mostly on a family reunification and green card lottery. Immigrants to the US tend to come from mostly poor third world countries, sold on the "American Dream". Immigrants to Australia tend to come from more well off countries usually in Europe and in Asia and are sold on a more relaxed way of life. In other cases you do get plenty of poor immigrants in Australia who basically came to Oz because they could not get through the door of US or Canadian immigration.
As far as the political thing, nyc expat, what Americans are now doing is just human nature and typically American. Americans want instant gratification, there was a lot of fanfare and excitement regarding Obama and after 8 years of Bush, who wouldn't be excited to see that idiot redneck get out of the WH. Yes Bush left a mess that Obama is trying to clean up but its fact that Americans are an impatient bunch and that is why his popularity is falling, the situation he inherited is nothing like that which Clinton inherited from Bush I. For the most part, America has finally reached a major tipping point where its becoming a declining power. I still believe Obama will be an 8 year president but regardless he will not be able to restore America back into the superpower it was 10 years ago. This is going to be an Asian century.
Anyway suddenly blaming the current President for the mess the last one left behind demonstrates how dumb most Americans are and why the country is on its downward path.
the previous poster and dj 4 money on another thread has bought up some isues that again are misleading. the national average u.s. unemployment rate is hovering around 9½% although it is higher in some regions f.ex. in fl. around 11-12%. i believe it is even higher in regions with vast minorities around 13-15% but 20% unemployment has never been an issue during the current recesssion 2007 onward.
obama inherited an enormous mismanagement of this country and an already high deficit from 8 years of incompetent republicans who lied to the population to start a war in iraq that should have ended after their dictator was captured. the president can not make miracles in 2 years for the reasons mentioned above. it will take time.
concerning wall st. and other business contributions to politicians, it is a known fact republicans have always been and always will be the highest contributors to candidates for politcial office.
obama has made some unfortunate mistakes most recently concerning building a mosque in the shadows of ground zero. this is a local issue to be decided by new york city. i am also disappointed bloomberg has mentioned the mosque is welcome in that area. wtf are they thinking?
in conclusion, fear mongers need to shut the f--- up. stop their propaganda so persons responsible to lead this nation can work to solve the serious situation and not use their energies to reply to media and political morons who imho are traitors. yes, there is freedom of speech but it's getting ludicrous and unacceptable all the negativity.
[quote=nyc expat]...obama has made some unfortunate mistakes most recently concerning building a mosque in the shadows of ground zero. this is a local issue to be decided by new york city. i am also disappointed bloomberg has mentioned the mosque is welcome in that area. wtf are they thinking?
in conclusion, fear mongers need to shut the f--- up. stop their propaganda so persons responsible to lead this nation can work to solve the serious situation and not use their energies to reply to media and political morons who imho are traitors. yes, there is freedom of speech but it's getting ludicrous and unacceptable all the negativity.[/quote]you can say what you want about bloomberg, but this mayor has balls, big ones. it's not the popular decision, but it's the right decision.
government needs to stay the fuck out of religion and private enterprise!
-helpmann :)
[QUOTE=Nyc Expat] ...
Obama has made some unfortunate mistakes most recently concerning building a mosque in the shadows of Ground Zero. This is a local issue to be decided by New York City. I am also disappointed Bloomberg has mentioned the mosque is welcome in that area. WTF are they thinking?
... [/QUOTE]
Do not even think of building a church in Arab countries. In fact, just crossing the border with several bibles will bring you immediately in jail, on charges of "prozelitizing".
It took the Spaniards 700 years to boot the Arabs out. The war of religion is still going on ... and we are loosing it in Europe.
B.B.
[quote=nyc expat] ...
obama has made some unfortunate mistakes most recently concerning building a mosque in the shadows of ground zero. this is a local issue to be decided by new york city. i am also disappointed bloomberg has mentioned the mosque is welcome in that area. wtf are they thinking?
... [/quote]
a japanese friend recently made the following remark to me : "al qaeda did a horrible terrorist act in killing thousands of civilians at 9-11. the americans did worse at hiroshima, it was also a terrorist act of targetting civilians. if we japanese had won the war, we would have tried truman as a war criminal."
i was speechless ...
regards. b.b.
[quote=bimbo boy]a japanese friend recently made the following remark to me : "al qaeda did a horrible terrorist act in killing thousands of civilians at 9-11. the americans did worse at hiroshima, it was also a terrorist act of targetting civilians. if we japanese had won the war, we would have tried truman as a war criminal."
i was speechless ...
regards. b.b.[/quote]it's funny how your friend remembers history. the japanese partnered with hitler, started the war with the us with the bombing of pearl harbor, and invaded china and other neighboring countries killing over 20 million people (mostly civilians).
with over 200,000 deaths attributed to the hiroshima and nagasaki bombings, i think the japanese got off easy.
-helpmann :)
[QUOTE=Helpmann]It's funny how your friend remembers history. The Japanese partnered with Hitler, started the war with the US with the bombing of Pearl harbor, and invaded China and other neighboring countries killing over 20 million people (mostly civilians).
With over 200,000 deaths attributed to the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings, I think the Japanese got off easy.
-Helpmann :)[/QUOTE]
That's the problem with wars. Every side is certain to be right and to have God on his side.
Regards. :)
[QUOTE=Helpmann]You can say what you want about Bloomberg, but this mayor has balls, big ones. It's not the popular decision, but it's the right decision.
Government needs to stay the fuck out of religion and private enterprise!
-Helpmann :)[/QUOTE]I agree with your first statement. Even though I don't want it built next to the World Trade Center, you have to respect freedom of Religion.
A agree partially with your second statement. America was built on free enterprise, but we all see what happens when greed and abuse run rampant.
How do we have a free society without controversy? We can't, but all we can expect is our leaders to stand up for basic rights.
[QUOTE=Bimbo Boy]That's the problem with wars. Every side is certain to be right and to have God on his side.
Regards. :)[/QUOTE]
Religion does not play a part in the current situation in Afganistan for American military forces. However, the fanatics of the enemy have used religion for thousands of years to fight with hatred against anyone who does not believe in their life styles. Their religion battles will never end until the last religious, militant fanatic is buried.
[QUOTE=Mr Gogo]I agree with your first statement. Even though I don't want it built next to the World Trade Center, you have to respect freedom of Religion.
A agree partially with your second statement. America was built on free enterprise, but we all see what happens when greed and abuse run rampant.
How do we have a free society without controversy? We can't, but all we can expect is our leaders to stand up for basic rights.[/QUOTE]I am not "thrilled" with the idea of a mosque near Ground Zero, but freedom of religion is a Constitutional right. To start denying certain Americans their Constitutional rights is the start down a slippery slope.
BTW, I am not "thrilled" with fat ugly chicks living next to me either, but fat ugly chicks have rights too.
-Helpmann :)
[quote=nyc expat]the previous poster and dj 4 money on another thread has bought up some isues that again are misleading. the national average u.s. unemployment rate is hovering around 9½% although it is higher in some regions f.ex. in fl. around 11-12%. i believe it is even higher in regions with vast minorities around 13-15% but 20% unemployment has never been an issue during the current recesssion 2007 onward.
obama inherited an enormous mismanagement of this country and an already high deficit from 8 years of incompetent republicans who lied to the population to start a war in iraq that should have ended after their dictator was captured. the president can not make miracles in 2 years for the reasons mentioned above. it will take time.
concerning wall st. and other business contributions to politicians, it is a known fact republicans have always been and always will be the highest contributors to candidates for politcial office.
obama has made some unfortunate mistakes most recently concerning building a mosque in the shadows of ground zero. this is a local issue to be decided by new york city. i am also disappointed bloomberg has mentioned the mosque is welcome in that area. wtf are they thinking?
in conclusion, fear mongers need to shut the f--- up. stop their propaganda so persons responsible to lead this nation can work to solve the serious situation and not use their energies to reply to media and political morons who imho are traitors. yes, there is freedom of speech but it's getting ludicrous and unacceptable all the negativity.[/quote]obama is pretty much gone in 2012, he is finished. it has ditto to do with fear mongering, its a fact that americans want fast results and americans do not see any substantial change for the better. obama is a puppet of soros and elite globalists, although only few are on to this, soros bankrolled obama's election, the right wing is effective in creating an environment of fear towards o's policies, the direction of america is clearly similar to that of the soviet union, already whole sectors of private industry are controlled by the government. i am so glad i do not live in america, what a joke. people where i live have already discounted america as a has been power, its china's time to shine, this is the asian century not the american one, that ended 10 years ago, get used to it.
[QUOTE=Australiasucks]Obama is pretty much gone in 2012, he is finished. It has ditto to do with fear mongering, its a fact that Americans want fast results and Americans do not see any substantial change for the better. [/QUOTE]
Not at all clear. What's most interesting is the degree to which the extremists on the right are dominating the debate within the Republican party. I agree that if the Republicans were willing to nominate a reasonable centrist for the next Presidential election, they would almost certainly win. But they seem pre-disposed at the moment to really gravitate to their most loony, scary, completely wacked out candidates like Sarah Palin, and that's the sort of of person that will scare the middle of the electorate back to Obama as the only sane option. And it's also true that we have some historical precedent here for Presidents to get a lot done in their first two years, but that scares the electorate into voting for the opposing party's congressional candidates in the mid-term elections. Then, when the opposing party fails to get anything done either, support gravitates back to the President before their election for their 2nd term. It happened with Reagan, and it happened with Clinton. Both of them were every bit as unpopular as Obama 1.5 to 2 years into their Presidencies - and both of them used the mid-term congressional defeats of their party, and the subsequent failure of the other party to accomplish anything in the legislature, to swing back into stronger popularity and to their re-elections.
[QUOTE=Helpmann]I am not "thrilled" with the idea of a mosque near Ground Zero, but freedom of religion is a Constitutional right. To start denying certain Americans their Constitutional rights is the start down a slippery slope.
BTW, I am not "thrilled" with fat ugly chicks living next to me either, but fat ugly chicks have rights too.
-Helpmann :)[/QUOTE]Tell you a secret between you and I. Fat ugly chicks have good wet pussies, Just make sure they use the back door and nobody sees her leaving.
[QUOTE=Bimbo Boy]
It took the Spaniards 700 years to boot the Arabs out. The war of religion is still going on ... and we are loosing it in Europe.
B.B.[/QUOTE]
A huge yes to this. I'm in Spain now, and it's awful that the muslims are invading. There is arab stores and restaurants popping up all over the place. If I wanted to live in the middle east I would have moved there, not to Spain. I'm all for stricter immigration laws. Unlike the USA who was built on immigration, this country was built by Spanish not Arabs.
Now, you try to do any of this in their country? Forget it, you'll be dead.
[QUOTE=Australiasucks]Obama is pretty much gone in 2012, he is finished. It has ditto to do with fear mongering, its a fact that Americans want fast results and Americans do not see any substantial change for the better. Obama is a puppet of Soros and elite globalists, although only few are on to this, Soros bankrolled Obama's election, the right wing is effective in creating an environment of fear towards O's policies, the direction of America is clearly similar to that of the Soviet Union, already whole sectors of private industry are controlled by the government. I am so glad I do not live in America, what a joke. People where I live have already discounted America as a has been power, its China's time to shine, this is the Asian Century not the American one, that ended 10 years ago, get used to it.[/QUOTE]
Apparently the media has influenced your thought process. Obama wasn't supposed to get past Hillary or Mccain according to the media. People in America aren't as blind as you think, we'll see what happens in 2012. The media needs controversies to attract attention. If they all said Obama was doing good that would be boring.
I agree with your statement about America wanting fast results and being unappreciative. The problem with Obama is he genuinely cares. We are used to politicians who kiss babys, tell us want we want to hear, and then do nothing.
People have forgotten that two years ago we were headed for the next great depression, thats not talked about anymore. Now it's we want jobs, jobs, jobs. After that some other problem will be manufactored for Obama.
China is a global power mainly because of America. We got into exporting good's and away from domestic products.
Never underestimate America's resolve when depreciated. America is at it's best when playing catch up. Our problem is when were out front we don't know how to lead.
I have been to Austrailia and it is a wonderful country, but politically they a minor player.
Thanks for your post.
[QUOTE=Jon32]A huge yes to this. I'm in Spain now, and it's awful that the muslims are invading. There is arab stores and restaurants popping up all over the place. If I wanted to live in the middle east I would have moved there, not to Spain. I'm all for stricter immigration laws. Unlike the USA who was built on immigration, this country was built by Spanish not Arabs.
Now, you try to do any of this in their country? Forget it, you'll be dead.[/QUOTE]
It's not just Spain it's the entire continent. Millions of them are now living in every Euro country. Many Europeans honestly believe they will take over the continent in less than 50 years. The U.N. made the greatest error of its existence when they requested in the early 1980s Euro borders open to refugees from middle east muslim and northeast African countries bringing their barbaric, primitive, religious behavior to western civilization in the midst of prosperity. Now 25 years later almost every Euro country has economic problems because of governmental support to these people through numerous programs while full blood Europeans suffer because of taxes, job lose etc.
As for America, Americans are an impatient breed. They need to realize it took 8 years to economically destroy the country. It will take more than 2, even more than 4 years to correct the mismanagement. Furthermore, wealthy Americans have to accept to pay some more in taxes to correct the previous administrations mistakes of giving them tax breaks. There is no other solution.
[QUOTE=Mr Gogo]Tell you a secret between you and I. Fat ugly chicks have good wet pussies, Just make sure they use the back door and nobody sees her leaving.[/QUOTE]I haven't fucked a fat chick in six years and I am NOT going to do that again! Now, it's just "spinners" and "sticks w/ tits."
-Helpmann :D
[QUOTE=Mr Gogo]Apparently the media has influenced your thought process. Obama wasn't supposed to get past Hillary or Mccain according to the media. People in America aren't as blind as you think, we'll see what happens in 2012. The media needs controversies to attract attention. If they all said Obama was doing good that would be boring.
I agree with your statement about America wanting fast results and being unappreciative. The problem with Obama is he genuinely cares. We are used to politicians who kiss babys, tell us want we want to hear, and then do nothing.
People have forgotten that two years ago we were headed for the next great depression, thats not talked about anymore. Now it's we want jobs, jobs, jobs. After that some other problem will be manufactored for Obama.
China is a global power mainly because of America. We got into exporting good's and away from domestic products.
Never underestimate America's resolve when depreciated. America is at it's best when playing catch up. Our problem is when were out front we don't know how to lead.
I have been to Austrailia and it is a wonderful country, but politically they a minor player.
Thanks for your post.[/QUOTE]That is obviously true, China has turned into a global power largely because it has exported goods to the US for years, but now it can use this to their advantage and to America's disadvantage. In the wake of the financial crisis, the US does not have the kind of manufacturing base that it once had, which created good paying jobs to keep a good and healthy middle class. The reason why fringe movements such as the Tea Party are gaining traction is because middle America has been left out in the cold, meanwhile Wall Street continues on with business, and for the most part Obama is no different than Bush. One thing that made America different from most societies is a large middle class that provided a social stable cushion between the rich and poor, that seems to be slowly going away. Things are still in a state of flux but my surmise is ten years down the road America will not be the country it is right now and not something for the better, the new global system is more and more becoming a nightmare for the American way of life, there is just no way you can compete with the rising Asian giants. America is now on the wrong side of history, this is going to be very difficult for Americans to accept but its more and more the reality with each passing day.
[QUOTE=Nyc Expat]It's not just Spain it's the entire continent. Millions of them are now living in every Euro country. Many Europeans honestly believe they will take over the continent in less than 50 years. The U.N. made the greatest error of its existence when they requested in the early 1980s Euro borders open to refugees from middle east muslim and northeast African countries bringing their barbaric, primitive, religious behavior to western civilization in the midst of prosperity. Now 25 years later almost every Euro country has economic problems because of governmental support to these people through numerous programs while full blood Europeans suffer because of taxes, job lose etc.
.[/QUOTE]
Completely awful. If you know of any causes out there to reverse the process I would happily support it.
[QUOTE=Jon32]Completely awful. If you know of any causes out there to reverse the process I would happily support it.[/QUOTE]Its a lot more complicated than just the UN pushing these countries to spur migration. Most European nations are aging, and one of the ideas they had was to bring in more immigrants, many of these migrants from the Middle East do not want to integrate into mainstream European society and hence you get problems. Europe is getting shitty these days anyway. Australia has quite a few Muslim migrants, the ones who start trouble down under tend to be Lebanese. Indonesians and others are fairly peaceful.
[QUOTE=Mr Gogo]Apparently the media has influenced your thought process. Obama wasn't supposed to get past Hillary or Mccain according to the media. People in America aren't as blind as you think, we'll see what happens in 2012. The media needs controversies to attract attention. If they all said Obama was doing good that would be boring.
I agree with your statement about America wanting fast results and being unappreciative. The problem with Obama is he genuinely cares. We are used to politicians who kiss babys, tell us want we want to hear, and then do nothing.
People have forgotten that two years ago we were headed for the next great depression, thats not talked about anymore. Now it's we want jobs, jobs, jobs. After that some other problem will be manufactored for Obama.
China is a global power mainly because of America. We got into exporting good's and away from domestic products.
Never underestimate America's resolve when depreciated. America is at it's best when playing catch up. Our problem is when were out front we don't know how to lead.
I have been to Austrailia and it is a wonderful country, but politically they a minor player.
Thanks for your post.[/QUOTE]50 plus months of growth in the former administration.The former administration took over as the bubble burst in the dot coms. Dems have been in control of congress since the 2006 election now add the White House in. The stimulas package, we were promised, would keep unemployment at 8%.
[QUOTE=Australiasucks]Its a lot more complicated than just the UN pushing these countries to spur migration. Most European nations are aging, and one of the ideas they had was to bring in more immigrants, many of these migrants from the Middle East do not want to integrate into mainstream European society and hence you get problems.[/QUOTE]
This is equally true of Canada, don't know about the US.
Government deliberately opened the floodgates of immigration hoping that the newcomers would fund the pensions and government services of our aging, stagnant population. This instead of fixing the fundamental problem by living within our means.
The other argument was we needed immigrants to grow the population (again - why? why not recalibrate our spending model to make a stable or declining population sustainable?) but the big joke is that most immigrant groups, once they get established here, catch the "causian disease" and experience a decline in birthrate. Maybe muslims are an exception, but many immigrant groups reduce reproduction for the same reasons westerners do.
So government policy (driven by lack of foresight) has dramatically changed the ethnic and cultural composition of many countries without really getting the economic or demographic benefits they banked on.
[QUOTE=Gentleman Travel]{Open-door immigration} is equally true of Canada, don't know about the US.
Government deliberately opened the floodgates of immigration hoping that the newcomers would fund the pensions and government services of our aging, stagnant population. This instead of fixing the fundamental problem by living within our means.
The other argument was we needed immigrants to grow the population (again - why? why not recalibrate our spending model to make a stable or declining population sustainable?) but the big joke is that most immigrant groups, once they get established here, catch the "causian disease" and experience a decline in birthrate. Maybe muslims are an exception, but many immigrant groups reduce reproduction for the same reasons westerners do.
So government policy (driven by lack of foresight) has dramatically changed the ethnic and cultural composition of many countries without really getting the economic or demographic benefits they banked on.[/QUOTE]
By now, I'm of the belief that [i]no[/i] politician's foresight reaches farther than the next election cycle. The Holy Grail is to get elected, then re-elected and re-elected, usually by providing the "bread and circuses" they believe their constituents demand. Or "need". They "solve" their district's "problems" by throwing lots of money at the targets they perceive ... in many cases, finding a way to benefit from the money they throw; in even more cases, being accused of reaping an unseen, unauthorized, and "unholy" benefit from their policies.
I perceive this as true of Republicans or Democrats; Tories, Labour or Lib Dems; Peronistas or Colorados - in other words, true of any well-established and major party in any country. It's not a "Left" problem or a "Right" problem, it's a [i]power[/i] problem. They have the power, they want to use it; they want to leave "their stamp" on the country for years to come. And of course they want to keep their hands [i]on[/i] the power!
Trouble is, now Government IS the problem.
Back to immigration - In the early days of the USA, we had a very thin edge of "population" surrounding a huge span of "wilderness". We were anxious to populate our country and had plenty of "room to grow". These were the days of Horace Greeley's "Go West, young man!" But what we got were teeming cities, full of immigrants who stayed on where they washed ashore, settled in enclaves of their own ethnic heritage. Lady Liberty's "Give me your tired, your poor..." was faced off by "No Irish Need Apply."
Since the 1920s, we've had various greater or lesser restrictions on who can come in legally to the USA. We've also had a great influx of what I'll call "informal immigrants" (I'm being Politically Correct) crossing the borders. Billions of people around the world still see the USA as "The Land Of Opportunity," and they will risk their meager fortunes and even their lives to get here.
Immigration policy, immigration reform, "informal immigration" as I called it - there's a continuing fire-fight in Congress and in the State legislatures about these issues. My opinions are rather jaundiced, but I have some delightful friends who "overstayed their visas," worked hard, saved hard, and took a really nice "grubstake" back to their homelands. I've also seen lazy good-for-nothings who came to the USA for the sake of getting government handouts, and who cleared out when the INS came a-sniffing....
AND, best of all, I tip my hat to some of my immigrant friends who cleared in properly, got their USA citizenship, and have done as much or more for their new homeland as the USA has done for them. My colleagues Jorge and Federico, my neighbors the Kanes, the Paks, the Nguyens, etc., etc....
[QUOTE=Nyc Expat]It's not just Spain it's the entire continent. Millions of them are now living in every Euro country. Many Europeans honestly believe they will take over the continent in less than 50 years. The U.N. made the greatest error of its existence when they requested in the early 1980s Euro borders open to refugees from middle east muslim and northeast African countries bringing their barbaric, primitive, religious behavior to western civilization in the midst of prosperity. Now 25 years later almost every Euro country has economic problems because of governmental support to these people through numerous programs while full blood Europeans suffer because of taxes, job lose etc.
As for America, Americans are an impatient breed. They need to realize it took 8 years to economically destroy the country. It will take more than 2, even more than 4 years to correct the mismanagement. Furthermore, wealthy Americans have to accept to pay some more in taxes to correct the previous administrations mistakes of giving them tax breaks. There is no other solution.[/QUOTE]You fail to see that both American parties are largely the same, they pretty much do whatever it takes to keep them in power. Bush initiated the bank bailouts and the two wars, although Obama is pulling out of Iraq, he is escalating the one in Afghanistan. He is also creating unprecedented control over American business and industry, the likes which have not been seen since the Soviet Union, GM for example is now a government company, the US fed now has more control over the nations banks as well. America's prosperity was built on free enterprise. What Obama does differently is his rhetoric, he speaks with a reconciliation tone to the world, not that the world really cares what America says these days. Bush destroyed America's soft power in his 8 years with his unilateral actions and with us or against us rhetoric, Obama is going to ruin America from the inside, creating a system that punishes the most productive and ambitious, after that the US will be a has been power, and the way of life that Americans have gotten used to is not going to last for much longer. Its pretty much now a question of when and not if, the NIE report states this decline will occur over the next 20 years, that seems quite right to me.
Europe shot itself, its not that simple just to blame the Muslim migrants, Europe has long had low fertility rates, that led Europeans to increase immigration. Australia, Canada, and the rest of the developed world is doing the same to prevent demographic decline.
The Western world we know with its power and influence will not exist for much longer, this is clearly going to be an Asian world order, in my country we are getting used to this notion, but I think people in Europe and the US will take a while if ever to accept this new reality for the world.
[QUOTE=Australiasucks]
The Western world we know with its power and influence will not exist for much longer, this is clearly going to be an Asian world order, in my country we are getting used to this notion, but I think people in Europe and the US will take a while if ever to accept this new reality for the world.[/QUOTE]
Everyone is going to be asian and muslim in 100 years.
Australiasucks, I've got a question.
Last week, [i]The Economist[/i] had an article about the Australian elections. They refered to Julia Gillard's unseating of Kevin Rudd as Labor leader (and Prime Minister) as "the first act in a soap opera that has since bedevilled Labor's campaign against the conservative Liberal-National opposition."
How is it the the "Liberal Party" in Australia could take part in a "conservative coalition"? And I thought the USA's "Republicans vs. Democrats" were f***ed up ....
[QUOTE=Westy]
How is it the the "Liberal Party" in Australia could take part in a "conservative coalition"? And I thought the USA's "Republicans vs. Democrats" were f***ed up ....[/QUOTE]
The Liberals ARE the "conservative" party in Australia, and always have been.
And, if you think about it, the Republicans are the "liberal" party in the US, excepting the religious right, which is illiberal in the extreme.
In Canada, the Conservative Party has traditionally been "tory" but now is increasingly like the American Republicans, and the Liberal Party is usually socialist and rarely liberal, in the most traditional sense.
All clear now?
[QUOTE=Jon32]Everyone is going to be asian and muslim in 100 years.[/QUOTE]Probably true, and we can blame the femnazis for the disappearance of Europeans.
[QUOTE=Gentleman Travel]The Liberals ARE the "conservative" party in Australia, and always have been.
And, if you think about it, the Republicans are the "liberal" party in the US, excepting the religious right, which is illiberal in the extreme.
In Canada, the Conservative Party has traditionally been "tory" but now is increasingly like the American Republicans, and the Liberal Party is usually socialist and rarely liberal, in the most traditional sense.
All clear now?[/QUOTE]
Thanks, GT, clear as mud. I may be adding to my own confusion, though; I associate "conservatism" with the core ideas of Adam Smith, Montesquieu, John Lock, and Edmund Burke; with the values expressed in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States. I associate "liberalism" with statism, the behavior of empowering the State at the expense of liberty.
[QUOTE=Westy]Thanks, GT, clear as mud. I may be adding to my own confusion, though; I associate "conservatism" with the core ideas of Adam Smith, Montesquieu, John Lock, and Edmund Burke; with the values expressed in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States. I associate "liberalism" with statism, the behavior of empowering the State at the expense of liberty.[/QUOTE]
Except nowadays, here in the U.S., we have "Conservatives" who run financial institutions going begging for government bailouts rather than face the consequences when they make stupid business decisions, and other "Conservatives" such as Hank Paulson and Ben Bernanke giving them those bailouts. We have "Conservatives" rejecting the rights of private property owners to build whatever house of worship that they choose on their own property, "Conservatives" seeking to have the government interject itself in the consensual sexual activities of adults, "Conservatives" seeking all manner of government eavesdropping on private citizens without any sort of probable cause, and "Conservatives" setting up a shadow military prison system so that accused prisoners of war can be tortured and held in perpetuity without any hope of due process.
No wonder you're confused, Westy - you're using an entirely obsolete definition of a "Conservative" - at least as far as the U.S. is concerned.
Oh, and BTW, at the time he lived, John Locke and the ideas he espoused were considered to be extremist Liberal, to the point of being the inspiration for not one, but the two greatest Revolutions of the 18th century.
[QUOTE=Member #2041]Except nowadays, here in the U.S., we have "Conservatives" who run financial institutions going begging for government bailouts rather than face the consequences when they make stupid business decisions, and other "Conservatives" such as Hank Paulson and Ben Bernanke giving them those bailouts. We have "Conservatives" rejecting the rights of private property owners to build whatever house of worship that they choose on their own property, "Conservatives" seeking to have the government interject itself in the consensual sexual activities of adults, "Conservatives" seeking all manner of government eavesdropping on private citizens without any sort of probable cause, and "Conservatives" setting up a shadow military prison system so that accused prisoners of war can be tortured and held in perpetuity without any hope of due process.
No wonder you're confused, Westy - you're using an entirely obsolete definition of a "Conservative" - at least as far as the U.S. is concerned.
Oh, and BTW, at the time he lived, John Locke and the ideas he espoused were considered to be extremist Liberal, to the point of being the inspiration for not one, but the two greatest Revolutions of the 18th century.[/QUOTE]
I don't think I'm the only one confused, that's for dayamm sure. And yes, you're right about Locke.
When I think about it in contemporaries' terms, you couldn't get much more dangerously radical-liberal in 1776 than this, could you?
[quote=Thomas Jefferson]We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness....[/quote]
[QUOTE=Member #2041]Except nowadays, here in the U.S., we have "Conservatives" who run financial institutions going begging for government bailouts rather than face the consequences when they make stupid business decisions, and other "Conservatives" such as Hank Paulson and Ben Bernanke giving them those bailouts. We have "Conservatives" rejecting the rights of private property owners to build whatever house of worship that they choose on their own property, "Conservatives" seeking to have the government interject itself in the consensual sexual activities of adults, "Conservatives" seeking all manner of government eavesdropping on private citizens without any sort of probable cause, and "Conservatives" setting up a shadow military prison system so that accused prisoners of war can be tortured and held in perpetuity without any hope of due process.
No wonder you're confused, Westy - you're using an entirely obsolete definition of a "Conservative" - at least as far as the U.S. is concerned.
Oh, and BTW, at the time he lived, John Locke and the ideas he espoused were considered to be extremist Liberal, to the point of being the inspiration for not one, but the two greatest Revolutions of the 18th century.[/QUOTE]
1. There is some confusion about the definition of "liberal." When you are talking about classical liberals, then you are talking agbout people along the lines of F.A. Hayek, Milton Friedman, and others who were something very much like radical libertarians. Then you have people like that assclown Noam Chomsky who believes in something called "Libertarian Socialism" (whatever the fuck that could mean). So, yes, both have been called "liberal," but it is just a word whose meaning can (and has) changed over time. (Kind of like that word "gay.")
People like Margaret Thatcher have commented on the tendency of those on the left to use verbal contortion (since the ideas that they have tend to quickly be shown to be wrong/ false/ foolish). Hereof is yet another example.
2. You talk about two revolutions. I know that one is the US Revolution (1776 and after). But what other one could you mean? I hope you don't mean the French Revolution......
3. Conservatives asking for bailouts? Are you sure that this is an issue of "liberal" vs. "conservative" as much as it is of moral hazard? (If you are a bank president and know that you can use someone else's money to bail out your bank, then you will do things as frivolous as come to your mind.) Or is it an issue of just poor legislation over many administrations (both liberal and conservative)? If you do any reading, you can know that there are plenty of governments that don't bother getting into the issue of acting as a lender of last resort. (Any country that has a currency board system).
4. Prisoners of war........... If someone acts as an enemy combatant, why is everyone else worried about whining about what happens to them? Would these people extend you the same courtesy if you were doing the same thing in their country?
5. Probable cause eavesdropping........Not sure what you are getting at here. I know that all this legal bullshit does not happen in China. (For example, the people who attacked children at kindergartens were tried and executed within 30 days.) It might work out better if there are fewer steps involved in the government being able to gather information to take care of business. Have you ever thought about this as a cost-benefit issue (as opposed to moralizing/ turning this issue into a soapbox)? That the cost of a few people feeling aggrieved about not having absolute privacy might be less than the cost of being able to get the information that is needed to stop some plan in progress?
6. Consensual sexual activities of adults.......Ok, you do know that prostitution is a state/ local issue, right? And you can find that you have left wing places (like Massachusetts) or right wing places (like Texas) that outlaw prostitution. So, not only is not a federal issue, but you can find that local governments on both sides of the fence have something to say about it.
7. Houses of worship.........Well, there is another way to look at this. Not everything can be reduced to a legal issue. If there are some people who want to protect themselves from people who don't share their culture, then why not? Again: The PRC government is instructive in this way. If they don't want to approve a permit for some house of worship (or any other thing), then they will just not do it and not discuss the reasons why. It is very clear the the Islamic world is not a friend to the Non-Islamic world--- and has not been for a long time. (You can read Samuel Huntington, "Clash of Civilizations" for details.) The simple answer is that "once the camel gets his nose into the tent, then the rest will follow." And it really is that simple. Not allowing those people to build that house of worship in that place would be stopping the camel from getting his nose into the tent (i.e., through some series of steps trying to set up Shariah law--check out the writings of Frank
Gaffney on this topic). You could turn it into a legal issue (i.e., a process based issue) or you could see it in a results-oriented way (in which case you would conclude to stop the camel from getting his nose into the tent-- and to do it with a minimum amount of discussion).
[QUOTE=Clandestine782]1. There is some confusion about the definition of "liberal." When you are talking about classical liberals, then you are talking agbout people along the lines of F.A. Hayek, Milton Friedman, and others who were something very much like radical libertarians. Then you have people like that assclown Noam Chomsky who believes in something called "Libertarian Socialism" (whatever the fuck that could mean). So, yes, both have been called "liberal," but it is just a word whose meaning can (and has) changed over time. (Kind of like that word "gay.")
People like Margaret Thatcher have commented on the tendency of those on the left to use verbal contortion (since the ideas that they have tend to quickly be shown to be wrong/ false/ foolish). Hereof is yet another example.
2. You talk about two revolutions. I know that one is the US Revolution (1776 and after). But what other one could you mean? I hope you don't mean the French Revolution......
3. Conservatives asking for bailouts? Are you sure that this is an issue of "liberal" vs. "conservative" as much as it is of moral hazard? (If you are a bank president and know that you can use someone else's money to bail out your bank, then you will do things as frivolous as come to your mind.) Or is it an issue of just poor legislation over many administrations (both liberal and conservative)? If you do any reading, you can know that there are plenty of governments that don't bother getting into the issue of acting as a lender of last resort. (Any country that has a currency board system).
4. Prisoners of war........... If someone acts as an enemy combatant, why is everyone else worried about whining about what happens to them? Would these people extend you the same courtesy if you were doing the same thing in their country?
5. Probable cause eavesdropping........Not sure what you are getting at here. I know that all this legal bullshit does not happen in China. (For example, the people who attacked children at kindergartens were tried and executed within 30 days.) It might work out better if there are fewer steps involved in the government being able to gather information to take care of business. Have you ever thought about this as a cost-benefit issue (as opposed to moralizing/ turning this issue into a soapbox)? That the cost of a few people feeling aggrieved about not having absolute privacy might be less than the cost of being able to get the information that is needed to stop some plan in progress?
6. Consensual sexual activities of adults.......Ok, you do know that prostitution is a state/ local issue, right? And you can find that you have left wing places (like Massachusetts) or right wing places (like Texas) that outlaw prostitution. So, not only is not a federal issue, but you can find that local governments on both sides of the fence have something to say about it.
7. Houses of worship.........Well, there is another way to look at this. Not everything can be reduced to a legal issue. If there are some people who want to protect themselves from people who don't share their culture, then why not? Again: The PRC government is instructive in this way. If they don't want to approve a permit for some house of worship (or any other thing), then they will just not do it and not discuss the reasons why. It is very clear the the Islamic world is not a friend to the Non-Islamic world--- and has not been for a long time. (You can read Samuel Huntington, "Clash of Civilizations" for details.) The simple answer is that "once the camel gets his nose into the tent, then the rest will follow." And it really is that simple. Not allowing those people to build that house of worship in that place would be stopping the camel from getting his nose into the tent (i.e., through some series of steps trying to set up Shariah law--check out the writings of Frank
Gaffney on this topic). You could turn it into a legal issue (i.e., a process based issue) or you could see it in a results-oriented way (in which case you would conclude to stop the camel from getting his nose into the tent-- and to do it with a minimum amount of discussion).[/QUOTE]
Nowadays, nobody in the U.S. much cares what Margaret Thatcher has to say about Liberals, given the fact that the most prosperous periods in post-war America happened under Bill Clinton, and in the U.K. under Tony Blair. Unfortunately for Blair, he was too quick to acquiesce to George Bush's brand of Foreign Policy, and the domestic prosperity he presided over was rather quickly forgotten.
2) Yes, Locke inspired first the American Revolution, and then the French
3) in actual fact, those bankers who begged for the bailouts did self-identify as Conservatives. But it certainly highlights their hypocrisy when, when push came to shove and they were faced with insolvency, their "Conservative principles" be damned - they just wanted their losses covered by the Government. And it was a couple of "Conservatives" appointed by the Bush Administration who covered those losses - admittedly with Liberals acquiescing as well to the bail out. Fear and self-interest can certainly make one abandon their highest minded principles.
4) Why do we care about Enemy Combatants? Simply because the fundamental basis for our nation is that we are a nation founded on the basis of principles, not on the basis of individuals. And when we betray our own founding principles in defense of our nation, we squander the very rationale of our existence. If our core principles are not worthy of preserving in our own defense, perhaps our nation is not worthy of defending. If we stoop to the level of those who would tear us down - perhaps they OUGHT to tear us down.
5) OUR system, unlike the Chinese - is based upon the fundamental principle that it is MORE important to protect ONE innocent person against the oppression of the government, than it is to bring ten guilty people to their punishment. If you disagree with that system - well, the trend is in your favor, as the Chinese flavor of due process seems well on it's way toward world dominance.
6) I was not actually referring to prostitution laws, I was referring to Sodomy laws, which Antonin Scalia and 3 other of the most Conservative members of the Supreme Court - believe to still be the prerogative of the state to enforce.
7) Again, OUR nation was founded as a paradigm of being better than the rest because ALL religions were given equal opportunity. If we now claim that Islam is not entitled to the same protections as Christianity, Because in OTHER countries, Islam is given unique sway over the entire populace, well, then, tear the Constitution to shreds - it's no longer worth the parchment it's written on. And if you think our Constitution is in such danger of being usurped by Sharia Law, which is only supported by a minority of one Religion, and in that case, the most poorly secularly educated observers of that one Religion, then I think you fail to give our system of laws anywhere near the credit that it deserves. Our Constitution's framers fundamentally believed that ALL ideas are worthy of admission to the table, and that only through a robust and all-encompassing debate, will the strongest ideas survive. The Arab states you implicitly mention where Sharia Law is prevalent, most assuredly do not encourage that sort of free exchange of ideas, because they well know that Sharia Law would never be implemented nor observed in such an open society.
In any case, thanks, Clandestine782, for such a timely primer on how Conservatives can conveniently throw their bedrock principles away whenever it suits the winds of public opinion. The hypocrisy couldn't be any more glaring.
[QUOTE=Member #2041]Nowadays, nobody in the U.S. much cares what Margaret Thatcher has to say about Liberals, given the fact that the most prosperous periods in post-war America happened under Bill Clinton, and in the U.K. under Tony Blair. Unfortunately for Blair, he was too quick to acquiesce to George Bush's brand of Foreign Policy, and the domestic prosperity he presided over was rather quickly forgotten.
2) Yes, Locke inspired first the American Revolution, and then the French
3) in actual fact, those bankers who begged for the bailouts did self-identify as Conservatives. But it certainly highlights their hypocrisy when, when push came to shove and they were faced with insolvency, their "Conservative principles" be damned - they just wanted their losses covered by the Government. And it was a couple of "Conservatives" appointed by the Bush Administration who covered those losses - admittedly with Liberals acquiescing as well to the bail out. Fear and self-interest can certainly make one abandon their highest minded principles.
4) Why do we care about Enemy Combatants? Simply because the fundamental basis for our nation is that we are a nation founded on the basis of principles, not on the basis of individuals. And when we betray our own founding principles in defense of our nation, we squander the very rationale of our existence. If our core principles are not worthy of preserving in our own defense, perhaps our nation is not worthy of defending. If we stoop to the level of those who would tear us down - perhaps they OUGHT to tear us down.
5) OUR system, unlike the Chinese - is based upon the fundamental principle that it is MORE important to protect ONE innocent person against the oppression of the government, than it is to bring ten guilty people to their punishment. If you disagree with that system - well, the trend is in your favor, as the Chinese flavor of due process seems well on it's way toward world dominance.
6) I was not actually referring to prostitution laws, I was referring to Sodomy laws, which Antonin Scalia and 3 other of the most Conservative members of the Supreme Court - believe to still be the prerogative of the state to enforce.
7) Again, OUR nation was founded as a paradigm of being better than the rest because ALL religions were given equal opportunity. If we now claim that Islam is not entitled to the same protections as Christianity, Because in OTHER countries, Islam is given unique sway over the entire populace, well, then, tear the Constitution to shreds - it's no longer worth the parchment it's written on. And if you think our Constitution is in such danger of being usurped by Sharia Law, which is only supported by a minority of one Religion, and in that case, the most poorly secularly educated observers of that one Religion, then I think you fail to give our system of laws anywhere near the credit that it deserves. Our Constitution's framers fundamentally believed that ALL ideas are worthy of admission to the table, and that only through a robust and all-encompassing debate, will the strongest ideas survive. The Arab states you implicitly mention where Sharia Law is prevalent, most assuredly do not encourage that sort of free exchange of ideas, because they well know that Sharia Law would never be implemented nor observed in such an open society.
In any case, thanks, Clandestine782, for such a timely primer on how Conservatives can conveniently throw their bedrock principles away whenever it suits the winds of public opinion. The hypocrisy couldn't be any more glaring.[/QUOTE]
That was a nice response. At least you bothered to answer the questions one by one and not turn this into personal attacks (this happens all the time on this forum).
1. As for Magaret Thatcher: She was the person who presided over a prosperous period in the United Kingdom (because Britain was looking very rough for a time). I've also read her books (that quote is from "Statecraft") and find that she is very intelligent (she was a Ph.D. in Chemistry), so when she talked about social issues, she did it with great perspective and insight.
2. Ok, if you look into the French Revolution, you will find that even if Locke did have something to say that inspired some aspect of the French Revolution, you can know that the ideas behind that revolution were VERY DIFFERENT to the ones behind the American Revolution. (How many republics has France been through since then? And did you read anything about the Reign of Terror in France that happened shortly after the French Revolution?) In sum, the French Revolution was a very different thing to the American one-- even if they happen to both be related by the fact that they were revolutions.
3. Ok, so the bankers were conservatives (where have you read this, by the way? Can you point to a single metric that describes/ quantifies the degree of conservatism by the bankers)? And in any case, you could turn that argument on its head. One of the biggest scams in the United States is the university system (at all levels). Now, universities are well to the left of the general population, and they produce a very little bit of economic value-- relative to what they suck up. (Do a google of "Courtney Munna nytimes.com" and you will get the story of a girl who spent $100,000 on an undergraduate education that she will be paying off for the rest of her life.) But can you say that what universities did (and do) is right because of their political persuasion? Even though universities and banks are EQUALLY GUILTY of moral hazard (i.e., not worrying about what someone else has to pay for and in what quantity).
I don't think this is an issue of political preference (again). If government policy (over some number of years and some number of administrations) allowed banks to become "too big too fail," then *that* is what created the conditions for banks to make reckless decisions. It's likely that you didn't look up the currency board countries (or the concept), but one of the central features of an Orthodox currency board is that it does not get into setting the discount interest rates (1) and that it does not act as a lender of last resort (2). I think if someone had thought to not let banks large enough to be too big to fail, then this might not have happened. Zombie banks have happened before (Japan. China.) The US could have seen this coming. And this was a policy issue.
4. Then this is where we disagree. Principles in the abstract are fine. But we exist in the real world. So, what I see as a cost benefit issue (that letting 10 guilty people go free really is more costly than imprisoning one innocent person) is a moral issue to you. And because of that, we'll never be able to come to an agreement on this.
5. I live here in China now, and find that they are (in some respects) no nonsense. When those people killed children, there was no reason for some lawyer to drag that out for 15 years. Getting executed in a timely fashion was better for everyone (including those people who might not have had time for a day in court because judges were busy listening to lawywers stretch out said cases to said amount of time) because the cost of that one life was worth the safety of many others.
6. I think you want to look into that case a bit more carefully. I believe that that was ruling on the constitutionality of a law that was in Georgia. The Supreme Court is an appellate court, and they don't worry about writing the laws. They just deal with the issue of whether a state can constitutionally pass a law (even if they don't agree with it). This is the difference between Strict Constructionism and Living Constitution theorists.
7. That is not true (that Sharia would not be implemented in free societies), and this is because Sharia was chosen by the House of Saud (Saudi Arabia) and Afghanistan (Taliban) with no outside pressure. (They are both Wahabbis.) I know that Nigeria has had some trouble with various localities wanting to ignore the secular law and institute Sharia in its place. Ditto for Yemen and Somalia.
I think the issue we have (about how far to let Muslims take over the United States) is not one that we can solve. I am looking at this in a real life way (i.e., something that HAS happened and CAN happen again and SHOULD be avoided if at all possible). You are looking at this as an abstract principle that exists in some reality somewhere. On this earth: (1) Muslims are not fond of the West; (2) The problem of some people coming someplace and starting out as guests and then taking over has happened before. (Think of China in either Tibet or Xinjiang. Those people were independent nations at one time and then they got in bed with China and lost ALL of their territory. Mongolia did a little better and lost half of theirs. Russia in in the process of losing its border states. If you google "Russia china revanchism," you will find articles that talk about just that.)
So, dealing with things that exist on THIS Earth, you can see that gate-crashers happen all the time. And once you know that, it is the problem of the practical issue of preventing that. (That was the point of Switzerland's not allowing minarets.)
We could talk about the benefits of NOT having a constitution written down (like Britain and Israel), but that's getting too deep.
[QUOTE=Westy]Thanks, GT, clear as mud. I may be adding to my own confusion, though; I associate "conservatism" with the core ideas of Adam Smith, Montesquieu, John Lock, and Edmund Burke; with the values expressed in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States. I associate "liberalism" with statism, the behavior of empowering the State at the expense of liberty.[/QUOTE]
Only in contemporary American vernacular does it take on this meaning, but since this thread is entitled "American politics" perhaps you are correct.
But the correct definition (from Wikipedia) is:
"Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis, "of freedom") is the belief in the importance of liberty and equality. Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but most liberals support such fundamental ideas as constitutions, liberal democracy, free and fair elections, human rights, capitalism, free trade, and the separation of church and state."
Whereas "conservative" is defined thusly,
"Conservatism (Latin: conservare, "to preserve") is a political and social philosophy that promotes the maintenance of traditional institutions and opposes rapid change in society. Some conservatives seek to preserve things as they are, emphasizing stability and continuity, while others oppose modernism and seek a return to "the way things were."
This is similar to being a "Tory" - although it does not speak to the social obligations of toryism. A Tory does not believe in dog-eat-dog capitalism or hold individual rights supreme - but rather he believes in an orderly, traditional society in which those on top (ideally the Tory in question) have some obligations to those beneath ("noblese oblige").
But perhaps this discussion is becoming a touch arcane for ISG and we should turn our minds to more earthly pursuits?
Or maybe, GT, we could say more "earthy" pursuits. :D
[QUOTE=Clandestine782]That was a nice response. At least you bothered to answer the questions one by one and not turn this into personal attacks (this happens all the time on this forum).
1. As for Magaret Thatcher: She was the person who presided over a prosperous period in the United Kingdom (because Britain was looking very rough for a time). I've also read her books (that quote is from "Statecraft") and find that she is very intelligent (she was a Ph.D. in Chemistry), so when she talked about social issues, she did it with great perspective and insight.
2. Ok, if you look into the French Revolution, you will find that even if Locke did have something to say that inspired some aspect of the French Revolution, you can know that the ideas behind that revolution were VERY DIFFERENT to the ones behind the American Revolution. (How many republics has France been through since then? And did you read anything about the Reign of Terror in France that happened shortly after the French Revolution?) In sum, the French Revolution was a very different thing to the American one-- even if they happen to both be related by the fact that they were revolutions.
3. Ok, so the bankers were conservatives (where have you read this, by the way? Can you point to a single metric that describes/ quantifies the degree of conservatism by the bankers)? And in any case, you could turn that argument on its head. One of the biggest scams in the United States is the university system (at all levels). Now, universities are well to the left of the general population, and they produce a very little bit of economic value-- relative to what they suck up. (Do a google of "Courtney Munna nytimes.com" and you will get the story of a girl who spent $100,000 on an undergraduate education that she will be paying off for the rest of her life.) But can you say that what universities did (and do) is right because of their political persuasion? Even though universities and banks are EQUALLY GUILTY of moral hazard (i.e., not worrying about what someone else has to pay for and in what quantity).
I don't think this is an issue of political preference (again). If government policy (over some number of years and some number of administrations) allowed banks to become "too big too fail," then *that* is what created the conditions for banks to make reckless decisions. It's likely that you didn't look up the currency board countries (or the concept), but one of the central features of an Orthodox currency board is that it does not get into setting the discount interest rates (1) and that it does not act as a lender of last resort (2). I think if someone had thought to not let banks large enough to be too big to fail, then this might not have happened. Zombie banks have happened before (Japan. China.) The US could have seen this coming. And this was a policy issue.
4. Then this is where we disagree. Principles in the abstract are fine. But we exist in the real world. So, what I see as a cost benefit issue (that letting 10 guilty people go free really is more costly than imprisoning one innocent person) is a moral issue to you. And because of that, we'll never be able to come to an agreement on this.
5. I live here in China now, and find that they are (in some respects) no nonsense. When those people killed children, there was no reason for some lawyer to drag that out for 15 years. Getting executed in a timely fashion was better for everyone (including those people who might not have had time for a day in court because judges were busy listening to lawywers stretch out said cases to said amount of time) because the cost of that one life was worth the safety of many others.
6. I think you want to look into that case a bit more carefully. I believe that that was ruling on the constitutionality of a law that was in Georgia. The Supreme Court is an appellate court, and they don't worry about writing the laws. They just deal with the issue of whether a state can constitutionally pass a law (even if they don't agree with it). This is the difference between Strict Constructionism and Living Constitution theorists.
7. That is not true (that Sharia would not be implemented in free societies), and this is because Sharia was chosen by the House of Saud (Saudi Arabia) and Afghanistan (Taliban) with no outside pressure. (They are both Wahabbis.) I know that Nigeria has had some trouble with various localities wanting to ignore the secular law and institute Sharia in its place. Ditto for Yemen and Somalia.
I think the issue we have (about how far to let Muslims take over the United States) is not one that we can solve. I am looking at this in a real life way (i.e., something that HAS happened and CAN happen again and SHOULD be avoided if at all possible). You are looking at this as an abstract principle that exists in some reality somewhere. On this earth: (1) Muslims are not fond of the West; (2) The problem of some people coming someplace and starting out as guests and then taking over has happened before. (Think of China in either Tibet or Xinjiang. Those people were independent nations at one time and then they got in bed with China and lost ALL of their territory. Mongolia did a little better and lost half of theirs. Russia in in the process of losing its border states. If you google "Russia china revanchism," you will find articles that talk about just that.)
So, dealing with things that exist on THIS Earth, you can see that gate-crashers happen all the time. And once you know that, it is the problem of the practical issue of preventing that. (That was the point of Switzerland's not allowing minarets.)
We could talk about the benefits of NOT having a constitution written down (like Britain and Israel), but that's getting too deep.[/QUOTE]
1) We'll simply have to agree to disagree about the relevance of Margaret Thatcher's opinion of Liberals. My opinion of the Religious Right brand of "Conservatives" is even less flattering (as opposed to the Libertarian small government strain of Conservatism). But in each case, these are simply individual's opinions - and after all, opinions are like assholes - we all have one.
2) I wasn't referring to what the French Revolution became - I was referring only to the underlying ideas that inspired it at it's genesis - those of Locke and Rousseau. I will grant you that the French Revolution rapidly became something far less pure than the initial ideology that spawned it.
3) I didn't say that the bankers WERE actual Conservatives - I said that they self-identified as such. Obviously, when push came to shove, they all simply wanted the losses caused by their own bad business decisions to be covered by the Government - and thus in their actions, they were hypocrites who threw their Conservative principles over the side in a New York minute. The only GENUINE ideology that these folks ever had, irrespective of what they may have claimed - was the Gordon Gecko credo that "Greed is Good".
4) I agree that we won't agree. But I also feel that it's very clear that ABSOLUTE respect for the rights of citizenry is the very underpinning of our system. If you can compromise on that whenever the "real world" impedes - then the American system has no legitimate justification to exist.
5) Good that you live in China - their methodology is probably more to your liking. I do feel that it's unfortunate that the American ideals and principles seem to be being abandoned from within, so we will never actually see which one would triumph on the World Stage in the long term - as it appears clear that we will adopt their entirely pragmatic approach fairly soon. Fortunately for me, as someone in his 50s, I won't live to see this played out to completion.
6) Actually, the opinions of the most staunch Conservatives on the SCOTUS are clear. They believe that States have the right to regulate private sexual behavior between consenting adults. They do not find any right to Privacy from intrusive government exists - which is exactly the opposite of how they view governmental intervention in economic interaction between consenting business entities. This is one of the main compromises that Conservatism has made to it's ideology in order to build a political coalition which incorporates Evangelical religious zealots into their numbers. The Libertarian flavor of Conservatism, while highly principled, has never by itself been able to get majority support without the Religious folks who want to legislate morality.
7) The fact is, Sharia would not and could not ever be implemented in a society where women have rights as individuals and educational opportunities. It only exists where women are treated as chattel. If you really fear Sharia could actually take hold in America, then it is patently obvious that you don't believe in the bedrock principles of the American System. None of the nations where Sharia law has ever taken hold were Democracies, and only one - Iran, had an educated population at the time, and it was clear that Iran is a special case because of the Anti-American hatred that the Shah inspired put a taint on any of the principles that America was linked with. And even so, they appear to be on their way to overthrowing Sharia law as a bad experiment that has harmed them as a nation. In any case, it couldn't be more clear that Islam is every bit as legally protected a religion as any other under the American system. There simply is no "exception" to be made for Islam, if we believe that there is anything in the American system that's worth preserving. If you really believe that Islam is so dangerous to the American way of life - then I will simply say that you need to own up to your own belief that there is nothing special about the American system of government, and we might as well abandon it and surrender in advance to the Chinese. To me, the far greater threat comes from people willing to abandon our principles due to irrational fear over stuff like Sharia Law. That's like saying that the last few centuries of human development have been counterproductive, and the middle ages is going to triumph over progress.
As for your last point about the "benefits" of not having a written Constitution. I would call that a fundamental flaw, and not a benefit. Because it's far too easy to abandon bedrock principles when there is short term gain. But in those societies, the principles in questio are NOT really bedrock, are they? I might say that the single salient distinguishing feature of the American system of government is the Bill of Rights. Without it, we would never have come to prominence as a world power, because we never would have attracted the waves of entrepreneurs and innovative thinkers who migrated to this nation because of the clarion call of that document.
Yes, CBS. Ten questions, ten letter grades, A-B-C-D-F.
Even better, they're sharing the results in real time. When you submit your poll, a window opens up showing bar-graphs of readers' response.
They are, of course, very clear that "this is not a scientific poll." I can't blame them for that. Because as of the moment I submitted my grades, the results were NOT pretty for the President.
[url]http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-6116297-503544.html?tag[/url]
[QUOTE=Member #2041]
2) I wasn't referring to what the French Revolution became - I was referring only to the underlying ideas that inspired it at it's genesis - those of Locke and Rousseau. I will grant you that the French Revolution rapidly became something far less pure than the initial ideology that spawned it.[/quote] And this is a perfect example of how "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." The outcome of the French Revolution is an actual result (it doesn't matter how good the principles behind it were, or if they were the same principles as for the American Revolution). [quote]
3) The only GENUINE ideology that these folks ever had, irrespective of what they may have claimed - was the Gordon Gecko credo that "Greed is Good".[/quote] Greed seems to be a bad human emotion, but the fact is that it gets things done. If you had to appeal to someone's moral compass/ better side to get something done as opposed to their self interest, which do you think would get you a faster result? I teach Chemistry and deal with a moist, pulsating asshole of a manager. Maybe you could tell me that if I am managed by that guy, then some other guy doesn't have to deal with him-- and that would be appealing to my better nature. But, sorry, if you gave me that (and then made my paycheck zero), then I'm afraid that I would have to find something else to do. When I moonlight as a conversation teacher here (talking about the same shit OVER AND OVER with students who have been studying for 7 or 8 years and can't make a decent conversation), do you think I do that for my health?
[quote]4) But I also feel that it's very clear that ABSOLUTE respect for the rights of citizenry is the very underpinning of our system. If you can compromise on that whenever the "real world" impedes - then the American system has no legitimate justification to exist.[/quote]Well, principles must conform to the real world but the reverse is not true. So, not trying to consider the American system (whatever that may mean) without respect to what it entails in the real world is the first step to Perdition. If it just about economic development (and that is good enough for me--- I don't care about the right to speak my mind because I don't have it in China and am none the worse off for it), then there are systems that have a lot less respect for the rights of their citizenry (i.e., Singapore) and are just as rich.
[quote]5) Good that you live in China - their methodology is probably more to your liking. I do feel that it's unfortunate that the American ideals and principles seem to be being abandoned from within, so we will never actually see which one would triumph on the World Stage in the long term - as it appears clear that we will adopt their entirely pragmatic approach fairly soon. Fortunately for me, as someone in his 50s, I won't live to see this played out to completion.[/quote] There are some very serious problems the way China does things. But the thing that I most appreciate is that they do things with the minimum amount of talking. I can't stand the current President of the United States because he does SO MUCH talking with so little carefully-thought-out action. The PRC government is the direct opposite. They are very opaque, but they do take care of business (in SOME respects).
[QUOTE]
7) The fact is, Sharia would not and could not ever be implemented in a society where women have rights as individuals and educational opportunities.[/QUOte] Never say never. Did anyone 100 years ago imagine that a black person could become president? One did. Does anyone now imagine that the United States could end up looking like Haiti (enough black administrations will do that to almost any country-- short of a nuclear device, they are the best way to destroy almost anything productive). It could. [quote] It only exists where women are treated as chattel. If you really fear Sharia could actually take hold in America, then it is patently obvious that you don't believe in the bedrock principles of the American System.[/quote]Well, systems don't exist in a vacuum. They exist because people propagate them. And if you have enough Arabs/ Muslims/ North Africans in one place, then that is EXACTLY what could happen.[quote]
If you really believe that Islam is so dangerous to the American way of life -[/quote] I leave you to read the writings on Frank Gaffney. This is not a big bang sort of thing. This is step by step. The camel is trying to get his nose in the tent. [quote]then I will simply say that you need to own up to your own belief that there is nothing special about the American system of government, and we might as well abandon it and surrender in advance to the Chinese.[/quote]I wouldn't go as far as all that. But even if the Chinese have been stuck in the Qin Dynasty for the last 2,300 years.....at least they won't let themselves be changed. At least they won't let someone come to China and try to extend their own country into it.
.[quote]As for your last point about the "benefits" of not having a written Constitution. I would call that a fundamental flaw, and not a benefit.[/quote]Britain is doing just fine. Israel is doing just fine. [quote] Because it's far too easy to abandon bedrock principles when there is short term gain. But in those societies, the principles in questio are NOT really bedrock, are they? I might say that the single salient distinguishing feature of the American system of government is the Bill of Rights. Without it, we would never have come to prominence as a world power, because we never would have attracted the waves of entrepreneurs and innovative thinkers who migrated to this nation because of the clarion call of that document.[/QUOTE]Two separate issues...........A favorable business environment and a Bill of Rights/ Constitution are two very different things. Singapore is swimming in money, and laws there are very much on the side of the government (compare that to Malaysia, which is a bit more laid back but less rich). China is even WORSE. But (these days at least), they are having no problems attracting investment.
[QUOTE=Member #2041]1) We'll simply have to agree to disagree about the relevance of Margaret Thatcher's opinion of Liberals. My opinion of the Religious Right brand of "Conservatives" is even less flattering (as opposed to the Libertarian small government strain of Conservatism)...[/QUOTE]
MY GOD! A high level debate, using facts, philosophy and coherent arguments on "American Politics"! Will wonders never cease?
Jackson, you must stop this immediately before reasoned discourse takes over the whole Board!!
[quote=clandestine782]
britain is doing just fine. israel is doing just fine.[/quote]
actually, israel not so much - their main threat is demographics. they are well on their way to becoming the next south africa in the era of apartheid, as within 30-50 years, the less privileged, less educated arab population will dwarf the jewish population. if israel doesn't figure out how to let the palestinians have their own state with the full rights of an independent state, this is going to be their unavoidable future.
[quote=clandestine782] never say never. did anyone 100 years ago imagine that a black person could become president? one did. does anyone now imagine that the united states could end up looking like haiti (enough black administrations will do that to almost any country-- short of a nuclear device, they are the best way to destroy almost anything productive). it could. well, systems don't exist in a vacuum. they exist because people propagate them. and if you have enough arabs/ muslims/ north africans in one place, then that is exactly what could happen.[/quote] frankly, i hadn't realized that i was debating with such an obvious racist. your metaphor about a black american president and sharia law is completely flawed - it was positive progress toward equality that enabled the u.s. to overcome it's prejudices and get to that point. that trend was inevitable, the only question was at what speed would it be accomplished. moving toward sharia law requires the state of human enlightenment in a society to move backwards, not forwards. as long as the society is evolving toward more education for more of it's populace, sharia can't happen. it is only if society becomes far more repressive and far less well educated than the american society already is that sharia can exist. admittedly, or education system has regressed somewhat in the past generation - but for it to continue to regress to the stage that anyone could seriously believe that sharia law was an actual threat, well our nation would have to have long since devolved past the point of anyone caring whether or not the u.s. system of government would be worth saving - we'd need to become a third world country - which, clearly is a long way off even for those of us who believe our nation may actually now be in decline. comparing our system to haiti's is laughable. the reason a place like haiti is as corrupt as it is has nothing to do with the color of it's goverment, it has to do with the fact that corruption is endemic to the society, and economic exploitation of the nation's resources and populace has been pervasive throughout it's history. education is the answer to solving those ills, and keeping something like sharia law at bay. obama won his election because he was clearly the more intelligent, more thoughtful candidate running. the fact that he has not solved the myriad of major problems that he inherited speaks far more to the severity of those issues that he inherited than it does to anything about his race. we are surely no worse off than had a mccain-palin ticket been charged with solving the same set of problems.
that being said, i'm saddened that what had been an interesting exchange of ideas has been blighted by a raft of bigotry that i didn't see coming from your end until you unleashed it in it's full fury. arabs, muslims, and north africans are no more likely to damage a society than white folks are, when they are confronted by an equivalent amount of endemic poverty and lack of education. sharia law requires an uneducated population to proliferate. so does the level of graft in a place like haiti or somalia. it has absolutely nothing to do with race, and very little to do with religion - except in that certain religious teachings have proven to be more popular amongst the poorest and worst educated people on the planet.
Clandestine, you must be smoking some potent stuff, Britain is not doing fine, and neither is Israel. The US is largely in the biggest economic debacle since the 1930s, the politicians were saying the worst is behind America but its obvious the crisis never ended and was merely masked by the massive amount of bailout stimulus. The patient was hemorrhaging due to a gunshot wound, the Wall Street created financial crisis, and Dr. Obama administered more blood to the US economy without stopping the hemorrhaging, hence the US is on a spending spree that is the equivalent of a poker game. Obama betting the house that the US will recover, looks like he is going to lose the house. Britain is on the verge of being thrown out of the EU, while you think this may weaken the EU it will actually make Europe stronger. I was born British myself and keep up with events there. I currently live in Australia and would never dream of returning there.
On the Israel front, things seem to be getting worse for Israel, they put themselves in a big hole, they have no friends any more, and Iran is going nuclear. Not a good sign for them.
[QUOTE=Member #2041] Moving toward Sharia Law requires the state of human enlightenment in a society to move BACKWARDS, not forwards. As long as the society is evolving toward more education for more of it's populace, Sharia can't happen. It is only if society becomes far more repressive and far less well educated than the American society already is that Sharia can exist.[/QUOTE]
Not necessarily, there is a route to accepting Sharia law that passes through comtemporary "liberal" and "progressive" thinking - cultural relativism - the concept that western culture is not inherently superior to any other, and all are equally valid. In Canada, this is also cloaked in terms of "accommodation" and "diversity". So if an Islamic woman is cloaked in a burka on a hot August day, walking two steps behind her husband and forbidden to work or get educated, that is their right and simply a part of cultural accommodation. And we don't want to know what happens in private in that family (girls being pulled out of school, arranged marriages, female circumcision) because it might force us to deal with the issue that not all cultural values are compatible and not all practices benign.
[QUOTE=Gentleman Travel]Not necessarily, there is a route to accepting Sharia law that passes through comtemporary "liberal" and "progressive" thinking - cultural relativism - the concept that western culture is not inherently superior to any other, and all are equally valid. In Canada, this is also cloaked in terms of "accommodation" and "diversity". So if an Islamic woman is cloaked in a burka on a hot August day, walking two steps behind her husband and forbidden to work or get educated, that is their right and simply a part of cultural accommodation. And we don't want to know what happens in private in that family (girls being pulled out of school, arranged marriages, female circumcision) because it might force us to deal with the issue that not all cultural values are compatible and not all practices benign.[/QUOTE]
You've still never shown a single situation in the history of the planet where a society that has educated women have adopted Sharia Law. The "route" you describe has never been traveled in human history. If you live in a civilized society and you are afraid of Sharia Law, you are also afraid of the boogeyman and any number of completely fictitious scenarios. You cannot justify oppression on the basis of something as illogical and unprecedented as the scenario you paint. We might as well be structuring our societal framework to protect us against an invasion of little green Martians. The fact is, in the U.S., the non-benign practices to which you refer are already fully legally sanctioned. We have no problem fully protecting the religious observance of Islam, without making even the slightest accommodation for the fact that some extreme fringes of Islam or other religions that might choose to oppress their women and girls. As is well understood - within our system - freedom extends until it impinges on the freedom of others. In other words - observing Islam is fully protected - but denying the girls education and mutilating them is most assuredly not protected. There is no tension whatsoever there.
[quote=member #2041]actually, israel not so much - their main threat is demographics. they are well on their way to becoming the next south africa in the era of apartheid, as within 30-50 years, the less privileged, less educated arab population will dwarf the jewish population. if israel doesn't figure out how to let the palestinians have their own state with the full rights of an independent state, this is going to be their unavoidable future.[/quote]i am not sure where you read this, but orthodox jews have lots of babies. like, 10 per family. i just finished a book called "real jews" that was about the conflict between secular and orthodox jews. and one thing that they noted was that the orthodox don't do anything except take welfare benefits, study torah/ talmud and have babies (a lot of them don't like to work or serve in the military). so, israel will not have a problem because it doesn't haev enough jews. it will have a problem because it doesn't have enough *productively employed* jews.
[quote] frankly, i hadn't realized that i was debating with such an obvious racist.[/quote] i am not a racist. i'm just stating the facts. at no time that rsa was under the apartheid government did they have 25% of the population infected with hiv. you never hear anyone else except black administrations/ black people denying the link between hiv and aids or saying that hiv was created by white people. even in africa there has been a cfa franc (which is the same thing as the euro-- a currency that is backed by the trade of several countres) for long time, and yet you almost can't *give* away cfa francs in any money changing center (hong kong, for example). and that goes for any african currency (except the rand) anywhere. if you go to hk (where you can buy and sell almost anything), you will find that one thing you *won't* move will be zambian kwachas or botswanian pula or nigerian naira (etc).
i might also point out that china is in the oil producing countries in africa drillng and setting up infrastructure, because it appears that the africans have more oil than they do brainpower. how embarrassing is that?
same thing with haiti. haiti and the dominican republic are both on hispaniola, and the income in the latter is a multiple of the former. the only difference is that one side is significantly blacker than the other. pretty strange.
[quote] your metaphor about a black american president and sharia law is completely flawed - it was positive progress toward equality that enabled the u.s. to overcome it's prejudices and get to that point.[/quote]the point was that people at point a can never imagine that something that happens by point b will happen. but a lot of things are possible if they happen in many small steps instead of one extra.
[quote]that trend was inevitable, the only question was at what speed would it be accomplished. moving toward sharia law requires the state of human enlightenment in a society to move backwards, not forwards.[/quote] that's not true. there are lot of stupid ideas that keep cropping up/ being resurrected by the intellegensia (see: "intellectuals and society" by thomas sowell for excellent examples of this). [quote] as long as the society is evolving toward more education for more of it's populace, sharia can't happen.[/quote]see the post by gentleman traveler. the intellegensia doesn't have to accept sharia. they only have to be passive/ non-judgemental and the camel can get his nose into the tent. and the rest of his body will soon follow. [quote] we'd need to become a third world country - [/quote]saudi arabia is not a third world country. not all of the oil states have flat out sharia, but many of them have something that is very much like it. [quote]comparing our system to haiti's is laughable. [/quote] not really, in the sense that countries can and do undergo very long and dramatic declines. look at china in the tang dynasty compared to china during the great famine. how many people at that time could have thought that chinese would be practicing cannibalism? [quote] the reason a place like haiti is as corrupt as it is has nothing to do with the color of it's goverment, it has to do with the fact that corruption is endemic to the society, and economic exploitation of the nation's resources and populace has been pervasive throughout it's history.[/quote]what resources does haiti even have to exploit? [quote] education is the answer to solving those ills, and keeping something like sharia law at bay. obama won his election because he was clearly the more intelligent, more thoughtful candidate running. the fact that he has not solved the myriad of major problems that he inherited speaks far more to the severity of those issues that he inherited than it does to anything about his race. we are surely no worse off than had a mccain-palin ticket been charged with solving the same set of problems.[/quote]not sure about that one. we'll never know the alternative situation. but if you compare black administered places to non-black administered ones, [i]just on the strength of that[/i], you'd start asking some very uncomfortable questions. [quote]
that being said, i'm saddened that what had been an interesting exchange of ideas has been blighted by a raft of bigotry that i didn't see coming from your end until you unleashed it in it's full fury. arabs, muslims, and north africans are no more likely to damage a society than white folks are, when they are confronted by an equivalent amount of endemic poverty and lack of education. sharia law requires an uneducated population to proliferate. so does the level of graft in a place like haiti or somalia. it has absolutely nothing to do with race, and very little to do with religion - except in that certain religious teachings have proven to be more popular amongst the poorest and worst educated people on the planet.[/quote]check the facts. take any random sample of african countries compared to any other countries on the planet in any other dimension(s) and see what you find. within the united states, compare detroit/ dc/ st. louis/ new orleans/ river rouge/ highland park/ east st. louis to bloomfield hills or ann arbor and see what you find. (hint: the first 7 have black administrations and the others don't. guess what difference you'll fiind.) detroit is an especially instructive example: it was a functioning city before black people took it over and collapsed after they did. so, the city didn't move. only the adminstrations did. hmmmmm.
[QUOTE=Gentleman Travel]Not necessarily, there is a route to accepting Sharia law that passes through comtemporary "liberal" and "progressive" thinking - cultural relativism - the concept that western culture is not inherently superior to any other, and all are equally valid. In Canada, this is also cloaked in terms of "accommodation" and "diversity". So if an Islamic woman is cloaked in a burka on a hot August day, walking two steps behind her husband and forbidden to work or get educated, that is their right and simply a part of cultural accommodation. And we don't want to know what happens in private in that family (girls being pulled out of school, arranged marriages, female circumcision) because it might force us to deal with the issue that not all cultural values are compatible and not all practices benign.[/QUOTE]
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!! I thought that it was too obvious to need elaboration, but I see that it was not clear to some.
[QUOTE=Westy]How is it the the "Liberal Party" in Australia could take part in a "conservative coalition"?[/QUOTE]
LOL! I'm forever having to explain this nonsense to my American friends. Our Labor Party is (somewhat) 'liberal' and our Liberal Party is about as far from 'liberal' as you can get. Don't try to understand it. It makes no sense. You just have to do what we Australians do...ignore them completely. :p
More embarrassment: [url]http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/africa/08/25/nigeria.child.witches/index.html?iref=NS1#fbid=-YyGNf9cI7u&wom=false[/url]
[QUOTE=Clandestine782]More embarrassment: [url]http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/africa/08/25/nigeria.child.witches/index.html?iref=NS1#fbid=-YyGNf9cI7u&wom=false[/url][/QUOTE]
Horrific indeed. I weep for those poor, maltreated children.
But ... how does this story tie into [i]American[/i] politics?
[QUOTE=Clandestine782]I am not sure where you read this, but Orthodox Jews have LOTS of babies. Like, 10 per family. I just finished a book called "Real Jews" that was about the conflict between secular and Orthodox Jews. And one thing that they noted was that the Orthodox don't do anything except take welfare benefits, study Torah/ Talmud and have babies (a lot of them don't like to work or serve in the military). So, Israel will not have a problem because it doesn't haev enough Jews. It will have a problem because it doesn't have enough *productively employed* Jews.
I am not a racist. I'm just stating the facts. At no time that RSA was under the apartheid government did they have 25% of the population infected with HIV. You NEVER hear anyone else except black administrations/ black people denying the link between HIV and AIDS or saying that HIV was created by white people. Even in Africa there has been a CFA Franc (which is the same thing as the Euro-- a currency that is backed by the trade of several countres) for long time, and yet you almost can't *give* away CFA Francs in any money changing center (Hong Kong, for example). And that goes for any African currency (except the Rand) anywhere. If you go to HK (where you can buy and sell almost anything), you will find that one thing you *won't* move will be Zambian kwachas or Botswanian Pula or Nigerian Naira (etc).
I might also point out that China is in the oil producing countries in Africa drillng and setting up infrastructure, because it appears that the Africans have more oil than they do brainpower. How embarrassing is that?
Same thing with Haiti. Haiti and the Dominican Republic are both on Hispaniola, and the income in the latter is a multiple of the former. The only difference is that one side is significantly blacker than the other. Pretty strange.
The point was that people at point A can never imagine that something that happens by point B will happen. But a lot of things are possible IF they happen in many small steps instead of one extra.
That's not true. There are lot of stupid ideas that keep cropping up/ being resurrected by the intellegensia (see: "Intellectuals and Society" by Thomas Sowell for excellent examples of this). See the post by Gentleman Traveler. The intellegensia doesn't have to accept Sharia. They only have to be passive/ non-judgemental and the camel can get his nose into the tent. And the rest of his body will soon follow. Saudi Arabia is not a third world country. Not all of the oil states have flat out Sharia, but many of them have something that is very much like it. Not really, in the sense that countries can and do undergo very long and dramatic declines. Look at China in the Tang Dynasty compared to China during The Great Famine. How many people at that time could have thought that Chinese would be practicing cannibalism? What resources does Haiti even have to exploit? Not sure about that one. We'll never know the alternative situation. But if you compare black administered places to non-black administered ones, [i]just on the strength of that[/i], you'd start asking some very uncomfortable questions. Check the facts. Take any random sample of African countries compared to ANY OTHER countries on the planet in ANY OTHER dimension(s) and see what you find. Within the United States, compare Detroit/ DC/ St. Louis/ New Orleans/ River Rouge/ Highland Park/ East St. Louis to Bloomfield Hills or Ann Arbor and see what you find. (Hint: The first 7 have black administrations and the others don't. Guess what difference you'll fiind.) Detroit is an especially instructive example: It was a functioning city BEFORE black people took it over and collapsed AFTER they did. So, the city didn't move. Only the adminstrations did. Hmmmmm.[/QUOTE]
You have a clear lack of understanding of causality. Every example of disfunction that you blame on race, is actually a function of poverty or lack of an educated population. Detroit ceased to function when the jobs went away after the U.S. Auto industry moved all of it's manufacturing jobs away or eliminated them. Anyways, we're done discussing this, because your ideas are repugnant. Again, your fear of Sharia Law coming to the U.S. is irrational, because you ignore what it takes for it to happen. And your denials of your racism would be laughable if they weren't so damn nauseating.
[QUOTE=Member #2041]You have a clear lack of understanding of causality. Every example of disfunction that you blame on race, is actually a function of poverty or lack of an educated population. Detroit ceased to function when the jobs went away after the U.S. Auto industry moved all of it's manufacturing jobs away or eliminated them. Anyways, we're done discussing this, because your ideas are repugnant. Again, your fear of Sharia Law coming to the U.S. is irrational, because you ignore what it takes for it to happen. And your denials of your racism would be laughable if they weren't so damn nauseating.[/QUOTE]
Not quite. I happen to know a little more about this than you(I grew up in a town about 18 miles west of Detroit on the I-94).
What happened in Detroit was this:
1. There was a functioning city. (As far as I know, there has NEVER been an auto plant in Detroit--all the auto plants are in Woodhaven/ Wayne/ etc. I think just about every newspaper in the country uses the word "Detroit" interchangeably with "suburbs" and they are 150% wrong.)
2. It was under a white administration until about the beginning of the 1970s. At right around that time, a guy named Coleman came and took over. He was a loud mouthed MFIC/ HNIC (for white people who don't know what those mean, they translate to "motherfucker in charge" and "head nigger in charge.")
3. He single handedly ran that city into the ground.
4. He stayed there for every bit of 20 years doing just that.
5. A guy named Dennis Archer came in after Young stepped down and tried to save the city by building Casinos (which, incidentally is the same thing that they tried to do in East St. Louis, Illinois after another black administration came there and destroyed it).
6. The casinos weren't enough to save the city (the way way they weren't in East St. Louis, Illinois).
7. In comes Kwame Kilpatrick after Archer (who got convicted on some type of fraud). He stayed there for 2 terms, and there were problems with corruption from even the very first day (and those idiots elected him AGAIN).
8. Kilpatrick went to jail, got out and was given a COURTESY job by some friends in Texas (at $100,000/ annum or so) and he still didn't pay the money he owed the city of Detroit and went BACK to jail. (I really wonder what could have been the average IQ of some people in Detroit electing such a fool twice. Not only that, but if his IQ was higher than average enough to get him elected, and got sent to jail twice on the same charges, what does it say about the average intelligence of the residents of the city?)
9. Dave Bing took over the city, and they are trying to figure out just how to not get into receivership.
10. As of the time of this writing, you can buy a house in the city for less than the price of a used car.
(As an aside, I can say that I used to go there every single weekened to visit my grandmother. And the city was rough then, but it has gotten even WORSE in the years since she died and we stopped going. Even the parts of the city that functioned then don't function any more.)
I know that it is the position of many people to start sneering (like you just did) when confronted with some uncomfortable facts about certain things (such as: it seems like the fortunes of any city/ administrative region/ country dramatically decline when black people take it over), but: 1. The evidence is overwhelming; 2. Why do people get so uncomfortable when another person points out the facts? (Look what happened to James Watson when he pointed out the same thing. He was the winner of a Nobel Prize for the discovery of DNA but was abruptly retired after he pointed out the obvious: [url]http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2007/10/james-watson-tells-inconvenient-truth_296.php[/url])
I am actually a black(ish) person (who does not vote) and I live in China (for the foreseeable future). I do *a lot* better in China, where I have no "political representation" (what you always hear black people in the States whining about). And the Chinese people don't like blacks (generally speaking), but I am able to find work here and make a good living. The fastest way for me to ruin that would be to go back to the States and live in Detroit (or any other place that black people have taken over and have destroyed/ are in the process of destroying). The second fastest way to ruin that would be to just bring black people to China and allow them to vote/ set up shop (like they have done in Guangzhou-- some very serious problems there).
As far as the causality of poverty: The authors of "The Bell Curve" have made a very strong case that it's race that's linked with intelligence and that causes poverty-- and not just a coincidence that many of the worst off people happen to be black. And that argument has been demonstrated time and time again.
I want you to notice that all black countries with an income above the world median are Overseas Dependencies of the Crown (Bahamas, Bermuda, Barbados, Cayman Islands, Virgin Islands). NOT ONE self governed black African country is in the top half of the GDP per capita. Jamaica is in the top half (and still technically has the Queen as head of state). Nearly all of the lowest 30 countries are African.
[QUOTE=Clandestine782]Not quite. I happen to know a little more about this than you(I grew up in a town about 18 miles west of Detroit on the I-94).
What happened in Detroit was this:
1. There was a functioning city. (As far as I know, there has NEVER been an auto plant in Detroit--all the auto plants are in Woodhaven/ Wayne/ etc. I think just about every newspaper in the country uses the word "Detroit" interchangeably with "suburbs" and they are 150% wrong.)
2. It was under a white administration until about the beginning of the 1970s. At right around that time, a guy named Coleman came and took over. He was a loud mouthed MFIC/ HNIC (for white people who don't know what those mean, they translate to "motherfucker in charge" and "head nigger in charge.")
3. He single handedly ran that city into the ground.
4. He stayed there for every bit of 20 years doing just that.
5. A guy named Dennis Archer came in after Young stepped down and tried to save the city by building Casinos (which, incidentally is the same thing that they tried to do in East St. Louis, Illinois after another black administration came there and destroyed it).
6. The casinos weren't enough to save the city (the way way they weren't in East St. Louis, Illinois).
7. In comes Kwame Kilpatrick after Archer (who got convicted on some type of fraud). He stayed there for 2 terms, and there were problems with corruption from even the very first day (and those idiots elected him AGAIN).
8. Kilpatrick went to jail, got out and was given a COURTESY job by some friends in Texas (at $100,000/ annum or so) and he still didn't pay the money he owed the city of Detroit and went BACK to jail. (I really wonder what could have been the average IQ of some people in Detroit electing such a fool twice. Not only that, but if his IQ was higher than average enough to get him elected, and got sent to jail twice on the same charges, what does it say about the average intelligence of the residents of the city?)
9. Dave Bing took over the city, and they are trying to figure out just how to not get into receivership.
10. As of the time of this writing, you can buy a house in the city for less than the price of a used car.
(As an aside, I can say that I used to go there every single weekened to visit my grandmother. And the city was rough then, but it has gotten even WORSE in the years since she died and we stopped going. Even the parts of the city that functioned then don't function any more.)
I know that it is the position of many people to start sneering (like you just did) when confronted with some uncomfortable facts about certain things (such as: it seems like the fortunes of any city/ administrative region/ country dramatically decline when black people take it over), but: 1. The evidence is overwhelming; 2. Why do people get so uncomfortable when another person points out the facts? (Look what happened to James Watson when he pointed out the same thing. He was the winner of a Nobel Prize for the discovery of DNA but was abruptly retired after he pointed out the obvious: [url]http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2007/10/james-watson-tells-inconvenient-truth_296.php[/url])
I am actually a black(ish) person (who does not vote) and I live in China (for the foreseeable future). I do *a lot* better in China, where I have no "political representation" (what you always hear black people in the States whining about). And the Chinese people don't like blacks (generally speaking), but I am able to find work here and make a good living. The fastest way for me to ruin that would be to go back to the States and live in Detroit (or any other place that black people have taken over and have destroyed/ are in the process of destroying). The second fastest way to ruin that would be to just bring black people to China and allow them to vote/ set up shop (like they have done in Guangzhou-- some very serious problems there).
As far as the causality of poverty: The authors of "The Bell Curve" have made a very strong case that it's race that's linked with intelligence and that causes poverty-- and not just a coincidence that many of the worst off people happen to be black. And that argument has been demonstrated time and time again.
I want you to notice that all black countries with an income above the world median are Overseas Dependencies of the Crown (Bahamas, Bermuda, Barbados, Cayman Islands, Virgin Islands). NOT ONE self governed black African country is in the top half of the GDP per capita. Jamaica is in the top half (and still technically has the Queen as head of state). Nearly all of the lowest 30 countries are African.[/QUOTE]
So you are trying to tell us that, simultaneously:
A) You are not a racist
B) Detroit was single-handedly run into the ground by someone you called "The Head Nigger in Charge"
So far, the only compelling evidence that you have provided in support of blacks being inferior is the statement that you are black-ish. You remind me of the Dave Chappelle satirical skit about the blind, black Klansman.
The fact is, EVERY black run economy that you point out was made into a basket case by White rulers, who exploited it before leaving a highly disadvantaged population without resources or education. And the fact is, it doesn't matter exactly where the Auto plants were located - they were the job base for URBAN Detroit, and the jobs left, and the educated population went with it. What happened in Detroit was no different than what happened in the various African nations you cited.
In any case, I'm sure that we can both agree that it was beneficial to all of us that you left the U.S. to go to China. Hopefully, you'll stay there. I'm outta here to take a shower - as I feel soiled just interacting with you and your repugnant combination of hate and stupidity. It won't happen again.
Well, I guess there is no more rebutting to do. Someone feels soiled, and I guess he's off to change his tampon. What more can I say?
(Coleman Young referred to HIMSELF as the MFIC/ HNIC. Not my saying it. Him. Oh, and the last post meant that Kilpatrick got convicted on fraud. Not Archer.)
You fail to understand that the cities were abandoned by white capital. Blacks were able to take control only because whites were leaving the cities. Blacks took control of municipalities that were in decline. The exceptions were Chicago and Los Angeles and New York.
White capital went on to extort states out of their tax base so that now California, New York, Arizona and Michigan are on the verge of bankruptcy.
If you are Black as stated in your post then you have serious self hate issues.
I'm not familiar with changing tampons, since, unlike Clandestine782, I don't wear them. Tampon changing technique is clearly another area (along with that of being an inferior black person) where Clandestine782's personal expertise is undeniable.
[QUOTE=DeepCover]You fail to understand that the cities were abandoned by white capital. Blacks were able to take control only because whites were leaving the cities. Blacks took control of municipalities that were in decline. The exceptions were Chicago and Los Angeles and New York.
White capital went on to extort states out of their tax base so that now California, New York, Arizona and Michigan are on the verge of bankruptcy.
If you are Black as stated in your post then you have serious self hate issues.[/QUOTE]
I have heard that line/ parable/ narrative 1,000 times ("white capital ran away from a city and that is why blacks were able to take it over"), and it's really cute-- but it doesn't explain the facts. There are cities that are right near Detroit (Redford, for example) and that is a functioning city. The only difference is that the administration in one is black and the other it is not. Why should capital have asymmetrically flown out of one city and not another? Why can you drive 2 miles away to Windsor and see a functioning city?
I'll go a bit further: You can also go to cities that are 14 and 18miles (respectively) from Detroit. Those cities would be Inkster and Romulus (respectively). Romulus is a functioning city. Inkster is the projects and not functioning. (My grandmother lives in Inskter, and you can hear gunfire EVERY SINGLE NIGHT continuously between the hours of about midnight and 2am.) But they are *right next door* to each other.
When I lived in East Alton, Illinois, it was the SAME IDENTICAL THING. I worked nights at a service station in Pontoon Beach when I was going through graduate school. East Alton was a city with a few black people in it. (Upon moving to the Alton/ East Alton area, I found out that in a lot of those small cities they didn't like to rent to black people. I thought that it was discrimination, but as I lived there longer, [i]I could more clearly see why[/i].)Every single night I got the privelege of watching the customers. They were about 1/2 black and 1/2 white. 100% of the petty theft was the black customers. 100% of the drive offs were them, too. And I had to live through six of watching those idiots pilfer things. And then they would buy exactly one blunt at a time (for 99 cents-- even though a pack of 5 cost $2.87) and go somewhere and cut the tobacco out of it and then come back in with their eyes read 2 or 3 hours later. Then you would see these women come in with food stamp cards (95% black) and litters of snot-nosed rainbow tribes of children.
It is not really an issue of self-hate as much as dealing with observable, extant facts. If I pointed out that West African blacks are good sprinters and that East African ones are good long distance runners is it self-love? If I go a bit further and point out that NONE of them are good swimmers, then does it go back into self-hate? Or could it be that there is really some empirical fact to be explained?
When I pointed out the fact that the Africans/ Haitians have been losers since they took over their own governments (and that the black countries that stayed as part of the Crown did a lot better), it's not self-hate. It's an objective fact. You can look it up on any set of OECD/ World Bank tables.
[QUOTE=Member #2041]I'm not familiar with changing tampons, since, unlike Clandestine782, I don't wear them. Tampon changing technique is clearly another area (along with that of being an inferior black person) where Clandestine782's personal expertise is undeniable.[/QUOTE]Didn't you say that you weren't talking to me any more (something about feeling "soiled"). Now you are going to have to read this post and then go and douche all over again. You will save yourself a lot of Massengil if you just put me on ignore. And in any case, you still didn't thoroughly answer any of the points that I made........
[QUOTE=Clandestine782]I want you to notice that all black countries with an income above the world median are Overseas Dependencies of the Crown (Bahamas, Bermuda, Barbados, Cayman Islands, Virgin Islands). NOT ONE self governed black African country is in the top half of the GDP per capita. Jamaica is in the top half (and still technically has the Queen as head of state). Nearly all of the lowest 30 countries are African.[/QUOTE]I see you're not one to let the FACTS get in the way of your argument:
* Bahamas: Self-governing 1964, independence 1973
* Barbados: Independence 1966
* Jamaica: Independence 1962
And as for your assertion that a country other than the UK having the British Queen as Head of State means that country isn't an independent nation - that is complete and utter bollocks. Does that mean you consider that Canada, Australia and New Zealand aren't "really" independent nations as well? Because [i]they[/i] [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_realm]share the same monarch as well[/url].
All that's left of your argument is racism.
Barbados: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbados#International_rankings[/url]
It functions as a constitutional monarchy and parliamentary democracy, modelled on the British Westminster system, with Elizabeth II, Queen of Barbados, as head of state represented locally by the Governor-General, Clifford Husbands and the Prime Minister as the head of the government
Bahamas: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahamas#Government_and_politics[/url]
The Bahamas is a member of the Commonwealth of Nations, with Queen Elizabeth II as head of state (represented by a Governor-General).
Jamaica: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaica[/url]
It remains a Commonwealth realm with Queen Elizabeth II as Head of State.
I was also wrong about Jamaica even being within the top half of rankings. Actual inspection shows that:
International rankings
Organization Survey Ranking
Institute for Economics and Peace [1] Global Peace Index[57] 102 out of 144
United Nations Development Programme Human Development Index 100 out of 182
Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index 99 out of 180
World Economic Forum Global Competitiveness Report 91 out of 133
So, we have 4 different axes and they fall in the bottom half on all of them.
With respect to all of the Carribean states: All of them have currencies that are anchored by/ pegged to the US Dollar (exception=Jamaica). I believe, in fact, that the British Virgin Islands uses the US dollar. [quote]Queen Elizabeth II appears on the banknotes and also on the obverse of the coins. She is the head of state of all the states and territories using the EC$, except for Dominica. Dominica is nevertheless a member of the Commonwealth of Nations which recognises Queen Elizabeth II as Head of the Commonwealth.[/quote]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Caribbean_dollar
This means that the monetary policy of all those places is effectively set by the Federal Reserve. (A country has to choose one or the other. It can have EITHER a pegged currency OR set its own interest rates. It can't have both.) Jamaica sets its own interest rates and has a floating currency, but then look what happened to it compared to the other Carribbean countries.
Not exactly sure what the point is, but like Metric says, most of the Caribbean countries are self-governing and independent and have been for decades. British influence (on current government or economic policy) there is minimal. Having the Queen as Head of State and on the banknote has NOTHING to do with being self-governing or not (as exampled by Canada & Australia). It merely reflects a shared historical head of state and (usually) membership in the Commonwealth. Exceptions are Cayman Islands, Turks & Caicos, BVI, Montserrat and Anguilla (crown colonies). You want some examples to support your earlier thesis, use Cayman Islands and Bermuda - still crown colonies and quite prosperous...
The other point, about Caribbean currencies being tied to the American dollar is true in most countries and is the most breath-taking intelligent thing any of them has ever done. Got the national government out of the business of monetary policy. Even in Jamaica, which has its own currency of sorts, the US dollar is king. I was there for a week and I never even saw a Jamaican dollar! Everything was paid in USD.
[QUOTE=Clandestine782]Barbados: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbados#International_rankings[/url]
It functions as a constitutional monarchy and parliamentary democracy, modelled on the British Westminster system, with Elizabeth II, Queen of Barbados, as head of state represented locally by the Governor-General, Clifford Husbands and the Prime Minister as the head of the government
Bahamas: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahamas#Government_and_politics[/url]
The Bahamas is a member of the Commonwealth of Nations, with Queen Elizabeth II as head of state (represented by a Governor-General).
Jamaica: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaica[/url]
It remains a Commonwealth realm with Queen Elizabeth II as Head of State.
I was also wrong about Jamaica even being within the top half of rankings. Actual inspection shows that:
International rankings
Organization Survey Ranking
Institute for Economics and Peace [1] Global Peace Index[57] 102 out of 144
United Nations Development Programme Human Development Index 100 out of 182
Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index 99 out of 180
World Economic Forum Global Competitiveness Report 91 out of 133
So, we have 4 different axes and they fall in the bottom half on all of them.
With respect to all of the Carribean states: All of them have currencies that are anchored by/ pegged to the US Dollar (exception=Jamaica). I believe, in fact, that the British Virgin Islands uses the US dollar. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Caribbean_dollar[/url]
This means that the monetary policy of all those places is effectively set by the Federal Reserve. (A country has to choose one or the other. It can have EITHER a pegged currency OR set its own interest rates. It can't have both.) Jamaica sets its own interest rates and has a floating currency, but then look what happened to it compared to the other Carribbean countries.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Gentleman Travel]Not exactly sure what the point is, but like Metric says, most of the Caribbean countries are self-governing and independent and have been for decades. British influence (on current government or economic policy) there is minimal. Having the Queen as Head of State and on the banknote has NOTHING to do with being self-governing or not (as exampled by Canada & Australia). It merely reflects a shared historical head of state and (usually) membership in the Commonwealth. Exceptions are Cayman Islands, Turks & Caicos, BVI, Montserrat and Anguilla (crown colonies). You want some examples to support your earlier thesis, use Cayman Islands and Bermuda - still crown colonies and quite prosperous...
The other point, about Caribbean currencies being tied to the American dollar is true in most countries and is the most breath-taking intelligent thing any of them has ever done. Got the national government out of the business of monetary policy. Even in Jamaica, which has its own currency of sorts, the US dollar is king. I was there for a week and I never even saw a Jamaican dollar! Everything was paid in USD.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough. I am losing track of the point, too. So, I'll just leave it at that.
Or could it be that there is really some empirical fact to be explained? If you were interested in empirical evidence then I could point to American meddling in Haitian affairs going back to an embargo imposed by Thomas Jefferson, who didn't want them being a bad example for "Negro Slaves in America". I might mention how France demanded and received "reparations for loss of property". I might end my presentation by pointing out how many times America meddled in Haitian affairs by invasions and imposition of a parasitic elite. That would leave little space to show how major cities (not suburbs like Redford, Warren etc which recieved more funding) were systematically defunded and deindustrialized and I would even point out that this phenomenon even happened to cities without Black mayors. All that would be a waste because in the end facts are not what brought you to your conclusion.
It simply is lazy stupid thinking. An analysis of American and world economics is deeper than simply saying "The Blacks fukkked it up". That thinking is a throw back to "The weather is bad cause God is angry" or a person is sick because he or she is cursed. It is stupid when white guys like me say it but it sounds particularly ignorant coming from someone purporting to be Black.
[QUOTE=DeepCover]Or could it be that there is really some empirical fact to be explained? If you were interested in empirical evidence then I could point to American meddling in Haitian affairs going back to an embargo imposed by Thomas Jefferson, who didn't want them being a bad example for "Negro Slaves in America".[/quote]Ok, can I get an idea of the scale of this meddling? And since they were on Hispaniola, why didn't they just do the same thing with the Dominican Republic? And I think you are "Texas Sharpshooting." You can find examples of governments that were taken over by blacks and then ruined independent of anything that the United States had to do with it. Zimbabwe, for example.
[quote] I might mention how France demanded and received "reparations for loss of property". [/quote] Ok, so can I get a dollar amount? If it was 0.1% of the GDP of any given year (and it has been a long time since France was in Haiti)? Or was it ANY amount worth worrying about? China suffered a lot of pain during the Japanese invasion and then for several decades even after that, but they are getting their shit together-- in a country that has an unfathomably large population to deal with. The Haitians have had twice as much time (something like 206 years since independence) to come up with NOTHING.
[quote]I might end my presentation by pointing out how many times America meddled in Haitian affairs by invasions and imposition of a parasitic elite.[/quote]You might end it, but you never started it to begin with. I mean think about it from the perspective of the US: Do you really want a government to collapse and send a bunch of illiterate refugees onto your shores? The US has done itself irreparable harm just by accepting so many immigrants from Cuba (those guys are actually educated and can read-- not much of which could be said for the Haitians)-- and they are just the beginning of what will possibly morph into a long, bitter language conflict.
[quote]That would leave little space to show how major cities (not suburbs like Redford, Warren etc which recieved more funding) were systematically defunded and deindustrialized[/quote]I get so tired of hearing that bullshit that is repeated endlessly in Pan African Studies Departments without thinking about what it actually means. How do you systematically defund a city? (Especially given that the services that Detroit can't provide are all city funded services every place else). I'm sorry, but Coleman Young single-handedly ran the city of Detroit into the ground. [quote]and I would even point out that this phenomenon even happened to cities without Black mayors.[/quote]Give me, say, 5 examples (of where this happened without black mayors) and give me a idea of the magnitude and rate of change per unit of time. (So, did city X have $5 of federal funding in the year 2000 and then only $2.5 of funding 10 years later? Or did the funding decrease by 20% every year for 5 years?) If you take a random sample of 10 black administered cities and compare the financial solvencies of 10 non black cities (again, no Texas sharpshooting).[quote] All that would be a waste because in the end facts are not what brought you to your conclusion.[/quote] Well, no, facts ARE what brought me to my conclusion. RTFF (look it up in abbreviations) and you will see where the conversation went.
[quote]It simply is lazy stupid thinking. An analysis of American and world economics is deeper than simply saying "The Blacks fukkked it up". That thinking is a throw back to "The weather is bad cause God is angry" or a person is sick because he or she is cursed. It is stupid when white guys like me say it but it sounds particularly ignorant coming from someone purporting to be Black.[/QUOTE]I didn't make my remarks with respect to the world economy. I made it with respect to economies that have met ruin at the hands of successive black administration. Some of them were whole countries (Haiti, Zimbabwe) and others were not independent countries (Detroit, East St. Louis, Washington DC). Saying that the weather is bad because God was angry is not the same as saying that this city was ruined because of X. I can test the second because it exists in reality, but not the first.
But seriously........just based on IQ arguments, TBC did a very interesting expansion of some of the difficulties of managing people with low cognitive functioning-ability. They did it in the abstract in some of the chapters and not with respect to race.
President Obama has been squawking consistently about the "budget deficit" he inherited from George W. Bush.
Oh, really? Where did that budget originate?
[quote=The Constitution of the United States]
Article 1, Section 7. All bills for raising revenue shall originate in the house of representatives; but the senate may propose or concur with amendments as on other bills. [/quote]In other words, it's not the President's budget. It belongs to Congress. Yes, Congress.
The last "Republican" budget was 2007, with a deficit of $161 billion - reduced from about $400 billion in 2004. The 2008 budget, with its record (then) deficit of $455 billion, was the product of a Democrat-run Congress; George W. Bush forced some compromises in that one. In 2009, Congress bypassed Dubya entirely through "continuing resolutions" to keep the Federal government running until Obama came into office. The 2009 budget nearly QUADRUPLED that "record-setting" $455,000,000,000 deficit from 2008.
The smallest CBO-projected budget in the attached graph is for 2011. The Congressional Budget Office expects that one to be over $600 billion dollars; and after that, the deficit goes whoopin' and hollerin' into the sunset.
Incidentally, Barack Obama was in the Senate to vote for the 2008 budget and the 2009 "continuing resolutions".
Whose budget?
THANK YOU!
I get so sick of hearing people babbling about "....he inherited that deficit from Bush," as if no one knew that the budget is set every single year by Congress. Of necessity, things that are part of one budget in an earlier year can't go into the next because they can't be approved by Congress until then. It seems like almost no one pays attention in their government classes.
From page 25 of Bush’s Budget Proposal on the heals of Clinton’s budget surplus. Note the bullet points.
THE PRESIDENT’S 2002 BUDGET:
A budget is much more than a collection of numbers. A budget is a
reflection of a nation’s priorities, needs, and promise. With this budget I
am confident that we can make a great Nation even better. In the midst
of this budget’s heft and detail, there is a vision for a better and more
prosperous America.—President George W. Bush
President George W. Bush’s 2002 Budget is shaped around a clearly defined
goal —the belief that Government should be activist but limited. Government
cannot create a strong economy, but it can create the conditions that permit
a free citizenry to do so.
At the same time, Government must also learn from the private sector,
finding ways to increase efficiency and customer satisfaction. The President’s
Budget moderates the rapid growth of discretionary spending that began with
the arrival of budget surpluses in 1998 while funding key Federal priorities in
education, health, environment, and other programs.
Thematic Highlights of President Bush’s 2002 Budget
• Funds the Nation’s spending priorities. For example, the budget
strengthens and reforms education, granting the Education Department the
largest percentage spending increase of any department (11.5 percent
increase in 2002).
• Moderates recent explosive growth in discretionary spending to 4.0 percent
growth in 2002, an increase of $26 billion over 2001.
• Achieves historic levels of debt reduction, retiring the maximum amount of
debt possible over 10 years ($2 trillion).
• Allocates projected $5.6 trillion surplus over 10 years. Breakdown of
surplus:
—Saves all of Social Security surplus ($2.6 trillion) for Social Security
and commits to reforming the program.
—Lets taxpayers keep roughly one-fourth of the surplus they produced
($1.6 trillion over 10 years).
The rest is history. We all know but many refuse to accept reality what and why the budget became an economic disaster over the following 8 fiscal years including the steps necessary to eliminate the debt and return to prosperity achieved in the 1990s. It will take more than 2, probably more than 4 years to reverse the budget trend after 8 years of mismanagement.
[QUOTE=NYC Expat]From page 25 of Bush's Budget Proposal on the heals of Clinton's budget surplus. Note the bullet points.
THE PRESIDENT'S 2002 BUDGET:
A budget is much more than a collection of numbers. A budget is a reflection of a nation's priorities, needs, and promise. With this budget I am confident that we can make a great Nation even better. In the midst of this budget's heft and detail, there is a vision for a better and more prosperous America. —President George W. Bush
President George W. Bush's 2002 Budget is shaped around a clearly defined goal —the belief that Government should be activist but limited. Government cannot create a strong economy, but it can create the conditions that permit a free citizenry to do so.
At the same time, Government must also learn from the private sector, finding ways to increase efficiency and customer satisfaction. The President's Budget moderates the rapid growth of discretionary spending that began with the arrival of budget surpluses in 1998 while funding key Federal priorities in education, health, environment, and other programs.
Thematic Highlights of President Bush's 2002 Budget
• Funds the Nation's spending priorities. For example, the budget strengthens and reforms education, granting the Education Department the largest percentage spending increase of any department (11. 5 percent increase in 2002).
• Moderates recent explosive growth in discretionary spending to 4.0 percent growth in 2002, an increase of $26 billion over 2001.
• Achieves historic levels of debt reduction, retiring the maximum amount of debt possible over 10 years ($2 trillion). • Allocates projected $5. 6 trillion surplus over 10 years. Breakdown of surplus:
— Saves all of Social Security surplus ($2. 6 trillion) for Social Security and commits to reforming the program.
— Lets taxpayers keep roughly one-fourth of the surplus they produced ($1.6 trillion over 10 years).
The rest is history. We all know but many refuse to accept reality what and why the budget became an economic disaster over the following 8 fiscal years including the steps necessary to eliminate the debt and return to prosperity achieved in the 1990s. It will take more than 2, probably more than 4 years to reverse the budget trend after 8 years of mismanagement.[/QUOTE]The current administration has "spent more" than ALL previous administrations COMBINED. Please explain how we could do this and still have the official unemployment rate at 9. 6%. The Obama election team told America that they had it figured out. It would not take long to re-start the economy. How many jobs have we lost since the "stimulus Bill" was passed? We were promised an unemployment rate of no higher than 8%. Now we are told that "they" didn't realize how severe the economy was. Now that they "realize" how bad the economy is & the lack of jobs that are out there what have the ruling party provided to America? The law making body of our government has been controlled by one party since Jan 2007. Now throw in the White House and there has been TOTAL control since Jan 2009. I have one question for all that disagree How has this administration & congress helped Americans continue the American dream?
Your conclusion that Black People are inferior is just as much magical thinking as believing in Leprachauns. Neither racism or leprachauns are debatable since both are motivated by the irrational.
Thomas Sowell was interviewed recently on the BBC where he complains that there are too many smart people in control of government. This underscores the American conservative lionization of ignorance. Little wonder that American Conservatives loved the idiot George Bush and are all weak in the knees over the Dumbass from the North, Sara Palin. Black conservatives like one of our fellow mongers below actually wants to argue the innate inferiority of Black people forgetting that he too is allegedly "Blackish".
Having traveled to all continents but Australia I can safely say few are as stupid and hypocritical as the American conservative. Dick Cheney claimed that Ronald Reagan proved (after spending more than all previous presidents combined) that deficits don't matter. Bush occupied two nations and threatened more war but American conservatives have yet to say one billion dollars per month is too much. In fact they want to attack Iran.
In the long run American conservatives will take up arms against the nation they claim to love just as their dim witted Confederate forebearers did over a century ago. It is then that they will learn that not all progressives believe in Gun Control.
[QUOTE=DeepCover]Your conclusion that Black People are inferior is just as much magical thinking as believing in Leprachauns. Neither racism or leprachauns are debatable since both are motivated by the irrational.[/QUOTE]Leprechauns are great for a budget because they can make up the deficit. That pot of gold they hide at the end of the rainbow, you know. Now if there were only a pot of gold at the end of the Rainbow Coalition.
[QUOTE=Hunts]The current administration has "spent more" than ALL previous administrations COMBINED. Please explain how we could do this and still have the official unemployment rate at 9. 6%. The Obama election team told America that they had it figured out. It would not take long to re-start the economy. How many jobs have we lost since the "stimulus Bill" was passed? We were promised an unemployment rate of no higher than 8%. Now we are told that "they" didn't realize how severe the economy was. Now that they "realize" how bad the economy is & the lack of jobs that are out there what have the ruling party provided to America? The law making body of our government has been controlled by one party since Jan 2007. Now throw in the White House and there has been TOTAL control since Jan 2009. I have one question for all that disagree How has this administration & congress helped Americans continue the American dream?[/QUOTE]These same old problems go round and round, both parties are responsible for the mess the good ole USA is in right now, but the real problem is the Repugs, going back to Reagan. Times were good during that era. But we are paying for it now. Deregulate, deregulate, deregulate, the government is the problem yadayada! So when I read all the horseshit being laid on Obama, my blood starts to boil. Do you recall what it was like in the early 90's, unemployment, factories shutting down. It was called the worst Recession since the Depression. Oh! It was Clinton's fault. So after 8 years of the Bush Crime Family, the awesome costs of the Iraq war, and a Repug controlled Congress, laying the blame on Obama is ludicrous. Something had to be done and the Dems have done it. Remember the first State of the Union message by Clinton? The Recession was going to last. Bill had it lucky. The information age was dropped in his lap. Well, Obama his the same problem. This Recession is going to be long and painful for many. Hopefully the change that will come slowly will be permanent. I fear the Repugs will have the upper hand again and the kind of rapid change endemic to their kind of policies, boom and bust economies, will just continue the downward spiral. I just hope my Social Security checks keep coming until I die. Following the mantra that social welfare like Social Security must be privatized is like lemming going off a cliff. I am a WASP, retired blue collar and I fear America is imperiled by TeaBaggers, and Repugs who want to return to the good old days. Whenever that was, I certainly don't want it.
[QUOTE=DeepCover]Your conclusion that Black People are inferior is just as much magical thinking as believing in Leprachauns. Neither racism or leprachauns are debatable since both are motivated by the irrational.[/QUOTE]
That's not what I said. I just said that it appears (from all evidence) that they can't run governments. And in that case, it is not just black people. The first time Chinese people ever set up a republic was 2200 years after the first emperor. The Arabs/ Persians have also had a hard way to go in the modern world. It may or may not be genetic.
But, as long as there is market capitalism, there is something for everyone to do. So, one area in which black people are very competent is entertainment. If you listen to the recordings of the old jazz masters, those guys could find work even during times when they weren't allowed to sit in the places in which they played. And in terms of jazz technical ability, Art Tatum has not been equaled. Markets know no color.
If some person says that he doesn't enjoy the society of black people (for whatever reason), then he is not being any less rational/ more irrational than a man that says he likes shaved vagina compared to a man that won't have one. Or steak vs. pork chops. Just a matter of prefernce.
You got to love French politicians - if not French politics!
First you get President Nicholas Sarkozy ditching his wife shortly after being elected, to take up with beautiful model and singer Carla Bruni.
And an article today about the French Immigration Minister (52) marrying a hot 24 year-old Tunisian-French art student (photo below).
Not so cool is Culture Minister Frederic Mitterrand, who proudly proclaimed his homosexual paedophilic romps in Thai "slave markets" in his autobiography ...
"I got into the habit of paying for boys," Mitterrand wrote, adding that his attraction to young male prostitutes continued even though he knew "the sordid details of this traffic."
"All these rituals of the market for youths, the slave market excited me enormously ... the abundance of very attractive and immediately available young boys put me in a state of desire."
And all these guys continue to serve in cabinet!
But if an American politician gets caught dicking around it is a huge scandal, ending in divorce, usually resulting in loss of office, and an appearance on Oprah!
And then of course there is Silvio Berlusconi, Prime Minister of Italy, in a class by himself....
I just hope my Social Security checks keep coming until I die. Following the mantra that social welfare like Social Security must be privatized is like lemming going off a cliff. I am a WASP, retired blue collar and I fear America is imperiled by TeaBaggers, and Repugs who want to return to the good old days. Whenever that was, I certainly don't want it.[/QUOTE]When Slick Willy was Pres the congress was Republican. It seems that as a typical lefty you are only concerned that your social security keeps coming.Who said socialism is great until you run out of other peoples money?
[quote=deepcover]thomas sowell was interviewed recently on the bbc where he complains that there are too many smart people in control of government. this underscores the american conservative lionization of ignorance. little wonder that american conservatives loved the idiot george bush and are all weak in the knees over the dumbass from the north, sara palin.[/quote] i wonder who is dumb now? thomas sowell has been writing for decades and makes a great salary at the hoover institution after someone found out that his talents were much better used as a writer and speaker. i think he gets about $20,000 for an hour speech. as it happens, i have just read (and sold) his book "intellectuals and society" (it was reviewed on amazon.com) and so i know what he said on the bbc.
his point was (are you reading?-- one of the benefits of the written language is that you can read it as many times as necessary before you understand it without my repeating it) that: people who are intelligent in one area (such as linguistics), will over-extrapolate that intelligence to try to make/ speak on public policy. now, if you think of someone like lee kwan yew (who was a brilliant man), he was not a person who did a lot of talking. instead, he looked back on historical examples when he built singapore and engineered a *very* successful city state-- possibly the most successful majority chinese state in over 20 centuries. you could compare him to someone like the current president of the us (b. hussein obama), who is an attorney (like about 44% of the congress of the us is/ has been). his expertise is with verbal dexterity, but not necessarily engineering things (as in, "what would be the best way to allocate educational resources so as to get the optimum output?"). so, b. hussein can talk and make you believe that something will happen-- it's just that it has no resemblance to reality. (since every single word out of his mouth-- including "the" and "and" are lies-- i can pick an easy example.) remember the thing about "saving or creating x number of jobs?" that sentence was repeated so many times, that is was almost easy enough to forget that they are two separate claims. so, which is which? he was also giving speech number 10,001 talking about education. but no one seriously believes in reforming education, because if they did, they would hire an economist and then make implementations in the same no-nonsense way that japanese/ chinese people educate. (as in, if you pass this test you can move on. if not, we are going to just make a cut and it's not open for discussion.)
[quote] black conservatives like one of our fellow mongers below actually wants to argue the innate inferiority of black people forgetting that he too is allegedly "blackish". [/quote]that's not what i said. what i was saying (over the course of this conversation) is that for some reason, every time black people take over a government, it is a disaster. (haiti-- a 208 year disaster. almost every country in africa. nearly every black-administered city in the united states.) what you came back with--with neither defense nor proof-- was "oh, they were systematically defunded and deindustrialized," to which i replied that (1) there are cities next door that are doing just fine (and that never had any industry) and (2) the things that detroit and east st. louis highland park and (well, you get the idea) can't even do things that are funded locally-- you know, police and public transport and things like that. there may be a mechanism behind this. (you can read murry and herrnstein where they discuss an example at great length. much of it deals with people who are not conceptually able to understand laws because of low cognitive ability.) do i need to mention that the congressional black caucus has all of the current cases for corruption? something like 42 members and (less than 10% of congress but 100% of the cases for corruption at once?). then there was that asshole jefferson (forget his name) that hid money in his freezer (???!!!??!!!).
before you diss black conservatives, why don't you actually read some things that they have written? everyone has an opinion on clarence thomas and hasn't even read his book (he's written exactly one). everyone has an opinion on bt washington and hasn't even read his one single book.
what can i say if i do make a better living in a place where i can't vote (and never will be able to) and where no one is black compared to if i did move to detroit? i wouldn't even be able to find a job washing dishes there (and that's with two degrees) because no one else can find a job there (because the city was that badly mismanaged). does "political empowerment" really matter that much? chinese people are not politically empowered (in china, indonesia, malaysia, or in the united states) but getting rich (in taiwan/ hk/ macau/ singapore/ indonesia/ malaysia they are already rich). zimbabweans are politically empowered and dying of aids. nigerians are dying of aids and relying on the chinese to maintain their infrastructure in exchange for preferred access to their oil? and the chinese come there and use their own people to do everything and don't hire even a single african. but the africans are politically free! (and unemployed and not able to handle their own infrastructure.)
[quote]having traveled to all continents but australia i can safely say few are as stupid and hypocritical as the american conservative. dick cheney claimed that ronald reagan proved (after spending more than all previous presidents combined) that deficits don't matter.[/quote]do you have any numbers to back this up? [quote] bush occupied two nations and threatened more war but american conservatives have yet to say one billion dollars per month is too much. in fact they want to attack iran.[/quote]for the same reason that they wanted to attack adolf hitler.
[quote]
in the long run american conservatives will take up arms against the nation they claim to love just as their dim witted confederate forebearers did over a century ago. it is then that they will learn that not all progressives believe in gun control.[/quote]they don't have to take up arms against their nation. it will tear itself apart long before that is necessary. it could be language conflict (very likely) or just a general weakining of law enforcement (for any variety of reasons, including weird federal judiciary behavior or too much money invested in fighting drugs or financing a 5th column (universities) inside their country or [you fill it in]).
but after it is all said and done: i can't repeat enough times (since you didn't read any of sowell's many books or even follow his argument) that getting enough of the right people in the wrong place is enough to make a nation collapse. and that's happened many, many, many times.
so, if you look at the imperial examination system of china (textbook example) china went absolutely nowhere for 2,200 years because everyone was so busy studying the confucian classics and not trying to do any practical innovation on anything. now, they have finally come up with the idea of a republic (sort of) and they have engineers that are at the head of government-- and the government here makes policies like engineers and runs the country that same way.
something that they realize (the prc government, that is) is that: 1. most people cannot understand most of what happens around them with respect to the management of a country. (if you stipulated an average iq one standard deviation above the mean to be able to comment intelligently on a policy issue, that successfully excludes 68% of the population.); 2. there is no use trying to promise things that you can't pay for/ produce anyway, and so the easiest way to do that is to just not allow the citizens to vote so that you don't have to deliver on any promises you can't keep in any case. (i would not go that far, but i would put in an iq/ civics test as a condition of being able to vote. people who could not pass the civics test and have a score in excess of 108 would be politely refused the right to vote.)3. the easiest way to not have to get bogged down in a discussion about public policy is to just not start the discussion to begin with.
[QUOTE=Clandestine782]That's not what I said. I just said that it appears (from all evidence) that they can't run governments.
Jumping to that conclusion based upon what goes on in some American Cities is like saying American Indians can't run governments because of the condition of Indians on reservations. The same can holds true of post colonial African governments.
If some person says that he doesn't enjoy the society of black people (for whatever reason), then he is not being any less rational
The "Society of Black People"? Don't try to impress me with big words.
/ more irrational than a man that says he likes shaved vagina compared to a man that won't have one. Or steak vs. pork chops. Just a matter of prefernce.[/QUOTE]
Bullshyt! the idea that Black people are inferior is more than simply preference. History has shown those that promoted it have stifled the human potential of millions. It is no less odious when the person promoting it claims to be Black.
[QUOTE=DeepCover]History has shown those that promoted it have stifled the human potential of millions.[/QUOTE]What has most stifled human potential in American blacks is the victim mentality constantly drilled into their heads by the Left.
[QUOTE=DeepCover]Bullshyt! the idea that Black people are inferior is more than simply preference. History has shown those that promoted it have stifled the human potential of millions. It is no less odious when the person promoting it claims to be Black.[/QUOTE]
1. You really need to work on using the "quote" function.
2. Not trying to impress you with big words. Everyone knows what the word "society" means. And the dictionary is free online (in case you didn't).
3. You didn't answer the questions that I put forth.
4. I see that you didn't follow the reasoning. Could you please tell me where you got lost, and I'll try to make it *even simpler.*
5. What was asserted was that: If someone decides that they don't want to hang around black people (or whatever people) for WHATEVER REASON, then that is no different to preferring chicken to beef. Or Asian girls to black ones. Or Islam to Chrisianity. It's just a matter of preference.
[QUOTE=Josechung]What has most stifled human potential in American blacks is the victim mentality constantly drilled into their heads by the Left.[/QUOTE]
A very good and very important point! [b][i]And it's not just true of Blacks.[/i][/b] It's true of [i]anyone, any group,[/i] who has been "pronounced Victim." (Except, of course, the "historical victimizers" - the scapegoats to be blamed for one's Victimhood.)
Victimhood means never having to acknowledge your own part in your "degraded" condition. It means "You OWE me" to the people you're blaming for your victimhood, to the seventh generation and beyond. It means you can blame, and blame, and blame - "It's all THEIR fault!"
If "victim" sounds like a good life-role, a cushy gig, "Rescuer!" is even more dramatic and seductive. You get the white hat, the white horse, the shining armor, all of it! "Here I come, to save the day!"
Ay, but there's the rub: You can't be a Rescuer without victims to rescue. You've got to keep reminding your followers of their victimhood; keep pointing out to them how "The Victimizers" have kept them down, even when they've stopped doing so; you've got to keep selling victimhood to stay in the Rescue Industry. So you do that, even when your followers have nothing in the way of their standing up and "being a Man." You promise milk and honey, if your followers will just keep behind you and keep pushing you up, keep polishing your shining armor and feeding your white horse. "When we Win!"
But - then you win. You've kicked out "The Oppressors" and YOU are in power. You're The Man! Your followers expect you to come through on your promises. "Where's that damn milk and honey? I'm hungry!" Well, you can buy a certain amount of milk & honey with the funds the Oppressors left in the Treasury; but you just kicked the dairy-farmers and bee-keepers the hell out, and your devoted cadre, your inner circle, have no idea which end of a bee to milk. Now what?
Just a parable....
We've seen countless examples over the centuries of Rescuers coming to power, and running their cities, their states, their nations into the ground. And it's been an equal-opportunity field, all the way. Blacks have done it, Whites have done it, Hispanics have done it, Asians have done it, the French did it in a big way in the 1790's - there is a WEALTH of bad examples.
How about some GOOD examples, of presidents and prime-ministers who have gotten it right - who have profited from the lessons of history, and managed to say "Not that way" and make it stick? One candidate is Ellen Johnson Sirleaf, President of Liberia; are there other Good Examples out there?
You are right about the quote function and little else.
Bottom line: You can talk like us (although based on your usage of the term Black Society, I doubt it). You can try very hard to act like us and even parrot white racist rhetoric. You will always be a pathetic Black man imitating someone what you think a white man should be. Better to be yourself and maintain your self respect.
[QUOTE=DeepCover]You are right about the quote function and little else.
Bottom line: You can talk like us (although based on your usage of the term Black Society, I doubt it). You can try very hard to act like us and even parrot white racist rhetoric. You will always be a pathetic Black man imitating someone what you think a white man should be. Better to be yourself and maintain your self respect.[/QUOTE]
1. There there now, little lady. You sure have put up the b.itch guard! I guess I will have to make it even simpler for you. The word "society" means "company." As in (def. 7) "companionship; company: to enjoy one's society. " ([url]http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/society[/url])
2. If you're a white guy, then you've done a good job demonstrating that both races have people on the low end of the IQ distribution (i.e., not understanding the arguments or even being able to come up with a decent response/ rebuttal).
3. Sneering is not answering the argument. (I can't believe how often people think that if they just act convincingly smug that is an answer to an argument.)
4. If you can't tell me where you got lost in the discussion (so that I can clarify the reasoning), I can't help you. If you yourself don't know, then there's not much more I can say. Even other people have responded to the arguments with at least *some* salient/ coherent points.
So, with that all said, this conversation is over. I have books to read and people with higher IQs with whom I can pursue conversation.
[QUOTE=Mephisto667]DC stopped arguing back and forth with this guy. He is on some type of mental medication.
He comes on a sex forum to debate the failures of the black race and spread white supremacy theories. If you do a quick check of his posting history appears he spent time in an Indonesian jail. Was he sexually abused? I have no idea why the moderator allows him to post unabated on this forum he serves no purpose.[/QUOTE]
Are you weighing in on a conversation that ended 3 days ago? And that I ended in my last quote?
Why don't you RTFF so that you can know what happened? I see that you have a whopping 3 posts to your name. I hope that you aren't a member who is posting under an alias and who was part of a flame war that was finished (by Jackson the moderator) approaching a year ago.
So, I am going to enumerate these points since you may be a bit slow.
1. I have posted on the internet about the use of Seroquel for insomnia (I've had this for many years). No different to if I had high blood pressure or insulin-dependent diabetes. Or if I was too old to have erections without the assistance of Vitamin V. Just that simple. (If there was a medicine that helped poor reading comprehension, I wouldn't hold it against you if you admitted to taking it.)
2. I believe that I wrote that I went to Indonesia for a summer vacation and took a teaching job there. It just happened that I was in the wrong place at the wrong time (read the story for the particulars) and had to spend the night in a jail for working on the wrong type of visa. Live and learn.
3. No, I wasn't abused as a child. And even if I was, that doesn't make my questions any less valid. (None of which Deep Cover answered).
4. The point of the argument (did you bother to read the argument?) was that people are always whining about changes of government and that what comes along later might actually be worse than what went before. And that black people have fallen into this trap MANY times-- both in and out of the USA. (Who knows? It may be genetic, but I am not sure yet.)
5. I'll extend the same courtesy to you that I did to the other person. If you kindly tell me the point in the discussion at which you got lost, I'll try to make it simpler for you. Someone was babbling about some cities being "systematically defunded and deindustrialized," but didn't bother to present any evidence one way or another about it. That same person babbled on about my being "imitation vanilla." (I guess they were saying that only a real white person could speak on these matters.)
6. There are lots of things that lots of people on this board find offensive. (Think about all the anti-sex perverts that don't like the idea of P4P.) If Jackson dealt with every single thing that everyone found offensive (and was not a violation of forum rules), I don't think he'd have time for anything else.
7. I do post sexual reports-- even though this sub-forum is about American Politics, and nothing that I've posted here with respect to this is out of place. I've specialized in cities/ places that are out of the way. (Most recently I've been reporting in Changzhou. I left the number of a reliable driver that can provide door to door girls. 400RMB for 2 shots, but he only speaks Chinese, as do all the service providers.)
[QUOTE=Mephisto667]DC stopped arguing back and forth with this guy. He is on some type of mental medication. He comes on a sex forum to debate the failures of the black race and spread white supremacy theories.[/QUOTE]
I had checked his posting history before I made the first response, I agree with your conclusions about him. I also think that Progressives waste a lot time providing rational arguments to people like birthers, creationist and racist who are unwilling to process information that challenges their dogmatic beliefs.
[QUOTE=DeepCover]I also think that Progressives waste a lot time providing rational arguments to people like birthers, creationist and racist who are unwilling to process information that challenges their dogmatic beliefs.[/QUOTE]
And Constitutionalists find that any time spent providing rational arguments to Progressives is wasted as well - upon people who are unwilling to process information that challenges [i]their[/i] dogmatic beliefs. So what goes around comes around.
[QUOTE=Westy]And Constitutionalists find that any time spent providing rational arguments to Progressives is wasted as well - upon people who are unwilling to process information that challenges [i]their[/i] dogmatic beliefs. So what goes around comes around.[/QUOTE]
I have no problem with debating Constitutionalists as long as we are debating the constitution and rights. The constitution is an objective reality. I draw the line at arguing mythology such as "Jews are inherently evil" and other such bigotry.
[QUOTE=Westy]And Constitutionalists find that any time spent providing rational arguments to Progressives is wasted as well - upon people who are unwilling to process information that challenges [i]their[/i] dogmatic beliefs. So what goes around comes around.[/QUOTE]
Thank you! I get so tired of listening to Progressives (whatever that may mean, since forward motion in time is not always necessarily for the better). I enumerated my points and didn't get a single answer from that other poster.
[quote]I had checked his posting history before I made the first response, I agree with your conclusions about him. I also think that Progressives waste a lot time providing rational arguments to people like birthers, creationist and racist who are unwilling to process information that challenges their dogmatic beliefs.[/quote]My brain works just fine. It is too active, in fact, and that is why I take sleeping pills.
I think that you are also a liar. How can I believe that either of you read over (and understood) my earlier posts when I have made about 10 posts on this topic and neither of you read or understood them? I didn't say anything about white supremacy. (For what it is worth, the book that I quoted the most was "The Bell Curve," and it, in turn was about "intelligence and class structure in American life." The racial component of the book was only 2 chapters-- even though those are the ones that everyone skipped to and read first. The authors pleaded with the readers to go back and read the whole book before the racial chapters.) It's plain old mainstream psychology. Nothing fringe or racist about it.
[b]For the third or fourth time, this post is about American politics. What I discussed was the fact that every time a black administration has taken over a city, it has collapsed. Why can't we talk about that in a sub-forum that is titled "American Politics"? [/b]
If you had read carefully any of the things that I posted (you didn't) or understood any of the enumerated points (you didn't), then you might have at least come back with one or two intelligent questions (you didn't).
The idea that I was sketching while on the drive home today (with respect to intelligence) and that Murry and Herrnstein talked about was: If you have people who have lower IQs, then it might not be that they can't understand the things that are necessary to make an advanced society, but that the cognitive investment might just be too high. Lots of people will accept the easiest answer about something *because* it is easy. (Religious people. Other types of chauvinists.) Could it be that intelligence really *does* explain that? I mean, people who have used intelligence to try to predict things such as medical school admissions are successful. Why not try to scale up and explain the direction of whole societies based on native talent?
I guess Mr. Whopping-3-posts must have been a bit slow. I haven't gotten any clear answers to the enumerated points from him. So much for that.
I might have added this to the post in the Manila thread, LOL. The military industrial complex had a heyday and huge boon under Reagan and how many wars did THAT complex get us into? I would not count Grenada as a "war", OTOH in terms of impact on global stages I might certainly include Afghanistan (mujahideen, stingers etc) , though that one clearly came back to bite us in the arse. Wait, wasn't that a DEMOCRAT's War? (Charlie Wilson)
A few decent recent iterations of M-I complex
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/05/opinion/the-permanent-militarization-of-america.html?pagewanted=all
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/ike-was-right-all-along-the-danger-of-the-militaryindustrial-complex-2186133.html
[QUOTE=Pete Benetar; 1428732]I might have added this to the post in the Manila thread, LOL. The military industrial complex had a heyday and huge boon under Reagan and how many wars did THAT complex get us into? I would not count Grenada as a "war", OTOH in terms of impact on global stages I might certainly include Afghanistan (mujahideen, stingers etc) , though that one clearly came back to bite us in the arse. Wait, wasn't that a DEMOCRAT's War? (Charlie Wilson) [/QUOTE]
I'm impressed that you actually followed through to the "USA Politics" unused thread. This is where many of these conversations probably belong, and now that you've created the precedent I have no excuse not to move my occasional political diatribes here. I will check out these links, but I am going to try to copy and paste them again here to see if I can get them to got hot. They don't seem to be hotlinks in your post.
[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/05/opinion/the-permanent-militarization-of-america.html?pagewanted=all[/url]
[url]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/ike-was-right-all-along-the-danger-of-the-militaryindustrial-complex-2186133.html[/url]
It worked. The trick seems to be to do a hard carriage return after each url.
[QUOTE=Pete Benetar;1428732]The military industrial complex had a heyday and huge boon under Reagan and how many wars did THAT complex get us into?[/QUOTE]Soviet Union, Cold War, mutual deterrence, uhm. How fast we forget. Sole hegemon now thinks it can do whatever it wants.
[QUOTE=Golfinho;1429144]Sole hegemon now thinks it can do whatever it wants.[/QUOTE]Copy that; we'll see you in another six years or so
Excellent articles, thank you gentlemen.
in the philippines politics thread pete benetar wrote:
"comical the preponderant liberal bent of postings here when reality is moderate politicians of both wings are captured in usa, not so unlike what wallace writes of the pi. how many criminal indictments has the obama administration served in the six years he's been in office following the trillions of dollars stolen and redistributed upwards? how many usd has he clawed back from the scores of billionairres who's wealth grew feverishly while average incomes dropped? nada. frontline's expose on obama's doj esp criminal div point man lanny breuer illustrates to all but the delusional the capture in the us, even under the liberal's precious democratic banner."
i agree with pete's argument about politicians of both parties being in the capture of wall street. in fact, hillary will be giving a speech at a goldman sachs conference in about 14 hours, presumably for her usual speaking fee of about $200, 000. assuming she plans to run for president, she clearly knows which side of the bread gets buttered:
[url]http://www.politico.com/story/2013/10/hillary-clinton-goldman-sachs-98958.html[/url]
her husband, of course, employed robert rubin, former goldman sachs ceo, as his treasury secretary, george w. bush employed henry paulson (also a former goldman sachs ceo) as his treasury secretary, and both clinton and obama kept larry summers, a close friend and consultant for goldman sachs, employed in their administrations for short periods of time when he wasn't busy pissing off the feminists at harvard.
as to how many criminal indictments the obama administration has served on wall street types, it all depends. in general, no big fish have been indicted. some individuals are just too important to prosecute:
[url]http://us.macmillan.com/withlibertyandjusticeforsome/glenngreenwald[/url]
but there have been prosecutions of investment bankers. such as:
somewhere between eight and 17 'employees' at steven a cohen capital advisors, and now it appears that, although cohen himself may evade prosecution, his firm has probably been effectively eliminated:
[url]http://money.cnn.com/2013/07/17/investing/wall-street-usattorney-sac/[/url]
[url]http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2013/07/25/sac-capital-is-indicted/?_r=0[/url]
three 'traders' at flow traders:
[url]http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/sb10001424127887323980604579031034025132054[/url]
and overall, more than 70 insider trading guilty convictions and pleas during the obama administration:
[url]http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/23/us-insidertrading-jiau-idusbre99m1du20131023[/url]
oh yeah, one goldman sachs board member went down:
[url]http://www.pe.com/business/business-headlines/20111026-wall-street-ex-goldman-board-member-indicted-in-insider-case.ece[/url]
but, following the "too important to be prosecuted" rule, it appears individual jp morgan chase executives will skate for their roles in concealing bernie madoff's activities, although the bank has agreed to a $13b penalty. what will be the long-term effect of this fine? only time will tell:
[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/27/business/a-13-billion-reminder-of-whats-wrong.html?partner=rss&emc=rss[/url]
and jp morgan was apparently not as lucky as goldman sachs following rep001hing senate hearings in 2010:
[url]http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-people-vs-goldman-sachs-20110511[/url]
for my part, do i find the democratic banner precious? no, i'm registered with no party affiliation. but the democrats do deserve some credit for the regulatory efforts they produced in dodd-frank. republican majorities in both houses of congress, on the other hand, were responsible for repealing the glass-steagall act in 1999, with bill clinton's acquiesence, thus eliminating protections intended to separate investment and commercial banking activities.
but as to humor in the situation, i'm sorry, i must be dense. dc's grievances are quite different from those ge and i have expressed, but i doubt that any of us see much humor in the problems we perceive in american politics. so help me out here. please explain the punch line to me.
one more apology: i don't have the patience to repair the hotlinks that get evaporated when posting them to the forum. if you care, figure out some keywords to look up the related stories. if you don't care, which is probably most readers, just ignore.
[quote=skip kost;1489717]. dc's grievances are quite different from those ge and i have expressed, but i doubt that any of us see much humor in the problems we perceive in american politics. so help me out here. please explain the punch line to me.[/quote]sk, thanks for your pm. for the record, my grievances are against obama. if he were a ceo he would have been fired in his first term. i am not a registered republican, nor from texas (as if that could predict anything) and have frequently voted independent. yes, america has greed, the upper 1 or 2, as does most countries. i believe in a flat tax. i do not think america is better than any other country but i do think it is going irretrievably downhill with all the money we give away to lazy people, defense budget, criminal justice system and immigration policies. sorry, ge, i don't think socialism is a good idea. we'd have to ask the swedes about what they think about their 70% taxes and their drug problems. young people ages 22- 30 in america have been appropriately labeled "the dumbest generation" by mark bauerlein, if anyone wants a good peek at the future of the usa and perhaps the world, read his views. i apologize to any isg members in that age category as you are probably the exception.
to my international friends around the world: it appears the entire world is fubar (effed up beyond all repair) so the only saving grace is to enjoy the company of sweet young things with an occasional beer. cheers, mates.
[QUOTE=Cons68;1696692]Wow. Really wow.
So you compare the donor (USAID) emblazoning the aid they sent, to a local politician grabbing the aid from that donor and repackaging it.
Amazing. Your sense of morality is truly amazing. Are you an Investment Wanker or a Consultant by any chance?[/QUOTE]If you read more carefully you will see that I merely pointed out that many different groups emblazon their relief materials with their names. It was a descriptive rather than normative statement. So the attribution of moral equivalence is all your own. I believe it is welcome in this setting. Others have weighed in as well.
VP Binay's actions are conspicuously viewable for our moral appraisal. For Samaritan's Purse and USAID, however, moral appraisal has a number of subjective elements. I presume that Mr. Graham's followers see only beneficent intentions in the relief and evangelical work of Samaritan's Purse. As an Agnostic, however, I am more skeptical about his NGO's desire to separate its practice of relief work from its evangelism. And I am skeptical about trying to convert poor Filipino Catholics to conservative Baptist Protestantism. I believe that many individuals who act from their faith to help less fortunate people probably relieve suffering in many places where relief is needed. On the other hand, there is a demonstrated correlation between countries' religious conservatism and their poverty levels and economic inequality. Why? Because most world religions tamp down dissent by telling the masses that their suffering will be rewarded in an afterlife. Long before Karl Marx thought of it, Napoleon Bonaparte argued that "religion is the only thing that keeps the poor people from killing the rich people. ".
Judgments about the morality of USAID's actions are much more difficult to make. Where you stand depends on where you sit. It is difficult for us Americans to not let our nationalistic chauvinism affect our judgments. But perspectives from people in Pakistan, Palestine, or Yemen may be much different. Pakistanis find it difficult to trust anything from American foreign policy. The drone strikes don't help, nor did the attack on Osama Bin Laden, even though many people may have been relieved at his death. The problem from the Bin Laden strike is that the CIA set up a bogus NGO under the guise of Polio vaccinations. From this they got nurses inside the compound to draw DNA samples under the guise of vaccinating the kids. The results? An explosive outbreak of polio within Pakistan when Pakistanis started refusing vaccinations; unwillingness among Pakistani officials to work with American officials; a segment of Pakistani intelligence whose allegiances shifted toward extremist groups (or perhaps merely became more entrenched). Regardless what USAID's role may have been, I think there's little doubt that their moral standing suffered in the eyes of Pakistani onlookers.
As to the intentions of USAID, their website recently stated, and may still: "The principal beneficiary of America's foreign assistance programs has always been the United States. Close to 80% of the USAID contracts and grants go directly to American firms. Foreign assistance programs have helped create major markets for agricultural goods, created new markets for American industrial exports and meant hundreds of thousands of jobs for Americans. ".
From a more radical view, World Systems Theory, the objective of foreign aid is to contain development such that developing countries have to play by Western rules and become dependent on the superior resources and established markets in Western countries.
We all get to choose which of these we subscribe to. Personally, I just try to avoid going all knee jerk in my judgments. But there's another problem in attributing moral intentions to USAID: USAID is an organization, an abstraction, and as such is not capable of moral judgments or actions. It is easy--but naive--to assume that the output activities of an agency like USAID reflect the objectives of a unitary, rational national policy. They never do. Foreign policy has always reflected continuous ongoing adjustments as situations change and a persistent pushing and pulling among various interests, both inside and outside government. In this scenario morality probably plays a minor role as against political and economic interests. Unfortunately for USAID, their work since 9/11 has redirected priorities from some areas of greatest depravation to areas where the United States has greatest national security concerns. The shift in aid dollars is quite conspicuous. In many cases they and NGOs and private firms through which their aid is delivered have to work increasingly in parallel with the military. This makes their work more difficult, but it also affects external judgments about the morality of their work.
None of this points to an easy assessment of morality where foreign policies and bilateral aid are concerned. Is this just a lot of verbiage over nothing? Again, it depends where you sit. In my case, the older I get the fewer definitive answers I have for things around me. I barely even know the right questions.
Am I an "investment wanker or a consultant"? Not guilty on the first count, occasionally guilty on the second. I won't assume you were passing a moral judgment about these professions, but were you? If so, what is the basis for the judgment? BTW, it might interest you to know that a number of regular contributors to the Philippines forum make their living from consulting. Are you uncomfortable with what they do for a living?
[QUOTE=SkipKost;1697430]...there is a demonstrated correlation between countries' religious conservatism and their poverty levels and economic inequality.[/QUOTE]Many of the richest countries in the world are among the most religiously conservative. Qatar, Brunei, Kuwait, the UAE and even Norway all have official state religions. You could "correlate" declining church attendance in the United States with the apparent decline of the middle class. At least in the United States, being unaffiliated with a religious group suggests that you earn less than someone identifying as Hindu, Jewish, Orthodox, Buddhist, or even with any of the Mainline Protestant churches. I'm curious where you found a demonstrated correlation? It's a difficult area in which to make sweeping generalizations. Can you name a dispassionate source?
[QUOTE=JellyDonut;1697452]Many of the richest countries in the world are among the most religiously conservative. Qatar, Brunei, Kuwait, the UAE and even Norway all have official state religions.
I'm curious where you found a demonstrated correlation? It's a difficult area in which to make sweeping generalizations. Can you name a dispassionate source?[/QUOTE]Thanks for caring enough to ask. The Gulf states you name are exceptions among Muslim countries, but if you control for wealth from oil I suspect religiosity related to GDP ceases to be positively correlated. The United States is a bit of an outlier. Despite a decline in religiosity, it still ranks quite high in religiosity compared to most industrialized countries. The likely explanation is that the country's predominant Protestantism makes Calvinist asceticism a cultural factor that encourages thrift and hard work and makes the accumulation of wealth appear to be a reflection of God's blessing. The German sociologist Max Weber had a pretty good explanation for this more than a century ago (see **The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism**).
As a source for my claim that religiosity and poverty are correlated, a Gallup Poll was a recent source. I think it qualifies as dispassionate:
[URL]http://www.gallup.com/poll/142727/religiosity-highest-world-poorest-nations.aspx[/URL]
Hopefully this will appear as a hotlink. If not, copy and paste into your browser.
Another reliable source dealing with these issues is Pippa Norris and Ronald Inglehart (2011). **Secular and sacred: Religion and politics worldwide**. Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press.
Also see if you can find any material from Christian Welzel, a German political scientist. He and Inglehart have done lots of work using data from the World Values Survey, maintained somewhere in Scandinavia, I think. I have a powerpoint of some of Welzel's work that I can share with you if you give me an email address in a personal message.
You could actually do your own analysis quite easily: extract World Value Survey data (they are free) on religiosity and grab GDP and income inequality data from sources like UNDP. Paste them into an Excel spreadsheet, sort the religiosity column by high to low and check out the progression of values visually for the other columns of data.
[QUOTE=SkipKost;1697485]Max Weber[/QUOTE]The bit about Calvinism is persuasive. It confirms the general idea that the more religious a nation or individual is, the more likely they are to work harder, save and invest (with emphasis on saving and investing). At least this seems to be the case with Mainline Protestants (Calvinists) and perhaps with the religions I mentioned below. The general arc of Europe and it's Calvinist descendants over the past 300 years, and certainly the past 50 years, confirms that the less religious these countries and individuals are, the lower their relative economic thrust.
[QUOTE=SkipKost;1697485]control for wealth from oil[/QUOTE]Controlling for oil wealth makes sense, since geography is a bit of a lottery. If you controlled for wealth inherited (from Calvinists and their protege), that would also shape the results.
It's a pretty fluid topic. Is North Korea religious or not? Is any state with a personality cult around it's leader (or dead leaders) religious?
[QUOTE=SkipKost;1697485]Thanks for caring enough to ask.[/QUOTE]Thanks for the response. I'm toying around with some ideas here and enjoyed your post.
A little levity to offset too much serious discussion about corruption and the things that ail and animate the Philippines:
[URL]http://www.gocomics.com/candorville/2016/04/03[/URL]
Many of the comments are fun, too. OlongapoJoe, if you're one of us, stand up and take a bow.
SCMP not pulling punches.
[URL]http://m.scmp.com/business/article/2023308/trumps-chinese-aspersions-are-nonsense?utm_content=buffered6d4&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer[/URL]
[QUOTE=Amavida;1942639]SCMP not pulling punches.
[URL]http://m.scmp.com/business/article/2023308/trumps-chinese-aspersions-are-nonsense?utm_content=buffered6d4&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer[/URL][/QUOTE]The writer creates a nice strawman to beat. Until the 80s the west still had garment and shoe manufacturers. Often these were unionised jobs with OK pay and decent benefits. Yes, repetitive work, but so too is mounting a door on a car for an 8-hour shift.
The main problem with the trade deals of GATT and later the WTO are they ignore David Ricardo's wisdom of comparative advantage. As they began industrialising, Asian countries had advantage in menial work such as garment making, and the west had advantages elsewhere. Under GATT and the WTO protected classes based on economic development were created - kind of like positive discrimination / affirmative action. A country would be labeled emerging or newly industrialised, and it was allowed to maintain tariff and non-tariff barriers under the misguided idea of fairness.
It was "unfair" that Korea had to liberalise its auto market, for example. Korea would be allowed to retain its competitive advantages in other business sectors whilst at the same time denying its trading partners theirs. As Korea developed its auto manufacturers and began exporting to the west it still maintained these barriers; Korea could (and would) lose money exporting because Korean consumers were compelled to buy Hyundais, KIAs, and Daewoos. The few who decided to pay the outrageous import taxes for a Merc faced tax audits. Japanese cars were banned outright - the first Japanese cars to enter Korea's market were made in the USA. Think about the logic of this. By exporting its cars to developed markets like the US, Hyundai was claiming they were good enough to compete. Yet at the same it demanded and received protection in the home market because it was too weak to compete. Does this make any sense? Sure, in the world of double standards.
That's the monster GATT / WTO created. China is following the export-oriented economic develop model because it works. Look at Japan and Korea.
Trade with immediate reciprocity is fair. Each side makes some sacrifices whilst achieving some gains. The trade regime created by GATT / WTO didn't establish this. "You open now, I'll open later. " A developing county could delay opening the market to develop new industries whilst its powerhouse industries were allowed unfettered access to shatter the foreign competitors.
If people are going to embrace "free trade" then make sure the word "free" is legitimate and accurate.
[QUOTE=Amavida;1942639]SCMP not pulling punches.
[URL]http://m.scmp.com/business/article/2023308/trumps-chinese-aspersions-are-nonsense?utm_content=buffered6d4&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer[/URL][/QUOTE]Well, everything that comes out of his mouth, to the extent anyone can re-interpret it into standard English is pretty much nonsense. On the other hand, I just read the article which is pretty much of an ideological polemic without much substance either.
Competing Economic theories not withstanding, the simple truth for me is that blue collar manufacturing jobs are never going to return to the US or to the West in general, and it's a reality that politicians dare not mention. The days when those armed with a high school diploma could find decently paid work are simply gone for the most part. Global trade, and the free flow of capital are realities that aren't going to change much regardless of protectionist rhetoric, and the only country that appears to get this (or at least the only one I've been able to identify) is Singapore. The US spends less as a percentage of GDP than other OECD countries on the retraining of workers displaced by automation or foreign competition, and I guess it's easier for politicians to make empty promises than to actually spend money to do something about helping workers to acquire relevant skills.
Yes, at Hutsori points out, the GATT and WTO probably provide an unfair competitive advantage to "developing" economies, but the former are also realities that aren't going anywhere soon. Conversely, this week's "Economist" ran a series of articles on globalisation and provided some real data on the benefits to the United States of its 20+ bilateral trade deals. By and large these benefits do not accrue to those without at least college degrees. But for me this argues for a better trained, more technically sophisticated workforce.
As others have pointed out, the Philippines plays such a small role in global trade that it remains largely unaffected by movement of capital and FDI. It's problems are mostly rooted in the fact that its protectionist trade and business laws are designed to restrict the inflow of foreign investment and they've certainly achieved that goal. I've heard nothing public from the new President about this subject.
GE.
[QUOTE=Hutsori;1943752] By exporting its cars to developed markets like the US, Hyundai was claiming they were good enough to compete. Yet at the same it demanded and received protection in the home market because it was too weak to compete. Does this make any sense? Sure, in the world of double standards.
That's the monster GATT / WTO created. China is following the export-oriented economic develop model because it works. Look at Japan and Korea.
Trade with immediate reciprocity is fair. Each side makes some sacrifices whilst achieving some gains. The trade regime created by GATT / WTO didn't establish this. "You open now, I'll open later. " A developing county could delay opening the market to develop new industries whilst its powerhouse industries were allowed unfettered access to shatter the foreign competitors.
If people are going to embrace "free trade" then make sure the word "free" is legitimate and accurate.[/QUOTE]We are in agreement Huts. The backlash has begun as voters accept they have been duped by neoliberal ideology. Unfortunately their choice is the established elite or right wing nutters.
[QUOTE=Amavida;1943786]We are in agreement Huts. The backlash has begun as voters accept they have been duped by neoliberal ideology. Unfortunately their choice is the established elite or right wing nutters.[/QUOTE]I forgot to mention the complication of accurately calculating "value added. " Many products "imported" by the US and Europe in fact contain components exported from the US and Europe for assembly in a second or third country. So how do we treat the exports and subsequent re-imports of assembled goods? I have no idea. The Philippines for example assembles, but does not manufacture small electrical goods. Since such goods are assembled from components manufactured and designed elsewhere should they count fully as exports from the Philippines? Supply chains have become multinational and perhaps the notion of country of origin is no longer relevant.
GE.
[QUOTE=GoodEnough;1943784]Competing Economic theories not withstanding, the simple truth for me is that blue collar manufacturing jobs are never going to return to the US or to the West in general, and it's a reality that politicians dare not mention.
[/QUOTE]Yet, Germany. We may think of Porsches and petrochemicals, yet it's also a pen and pencil superpower. I'll also mention that Korea today is a high-wage nation with plenty of manufacturing jobs. I recall reading a few years ago Korea's autoworkers earn more per hour than American UAW union members. How? Because it's not simply wages that determine success or failure. Germany has done very well for itself with innovative engineering. (A problem for its trade and competiveness is when a nation demands technology transfer.) The other important factor is productivity measured by the cost per unit.
To say manufacturing jobs are never going to return is defeatist. And evidence shows that this is not entirely true. Recovery becomes more difficult when the loss of know-how lasts for decades. Seasoned mentors in factories count for a lot.
I'll add it also takes a bit of nationalism. Citroen, Renault, and Peugeot survive because French consumers choose to buy French.
These are the top 10 selling car models on Q1 2016.
1 Renault Clio IV.
2 Peugeot 208.
3 Peugeot 308 II.
4 Renault Captur.
5 Peugeot 2008.
6 Citroen C3 II.
7 Dacia Sandero.
8 Volkswagen Polo.
9 Citroen C4 II Picasso.
10 Renault Twingo III.
Who here is thinking "Dacia?" Eight French models, one German, and one Romanian (owned by Renault). I used France as the example because its marques are not renown for engineering excellence like Germany and Japan's. In Italy, six of the top 10 are Italian marques. If you look throughout Europe the top selling models are dominated by the European marques, and the US / Japanese models are often made in the UK.
Here are the top 10 selling models in the US for Q2 2016.
1 Toyota Camry.
2 Honda Civic.
3 Toyota Corolla.
4 Nissan Altima.
5 Honda Accord.
6 Ford Fusion.
7 Hyundai Elantra.
8 Nissan Sentra.
9 Ford Focus.
10 Chevrolet Cruze.
Presumably some of the foreign models were assembled in the US, and the Cruze may be made outside the states since it started life as a Holden and later made by Daewoo (owned by GM).
Does Japanese engineering suddenly fall apart in Europe?
[QUOTE=GoodEnough;1943784]
The days when those armed with a high school diploma could find decently paid work are simply gone for the most part. Global trade, and the free flow of capital are realities that aren't going to change much regardless of protectionist rhetoric, and the only country that appears to get this (or at least the only one I've been able to identify) is Singapore.[/QUOTE]Other than chicken and rice, what does Singapore make? It's a regional hub for services. When one doesn't manufacture there's not much demand for protection. It's only recently that the state is self-sufficient in potable water, and that's due to reclaimed water. I'm not criticising the effort, merely pointing out that the people's we-have-to-import-to-eat-and-drink concern has a great influence on how they perceive things and adjust to the world. Their survival literally depends on it.
[QUOTE=GoodEnough;1943784]
The US spends less as a percentage of GDP than other OECD countries on the retraining of workers displaced by automation or foreign competition, and I guess it's easier for politicians to make empty promises than to actually spend money to do something about helping workers to acquire relevant skills.[/QUOTE]It's a criticism, but to what end? The US retrains footwear makers to what jobs? Steel making? Auto assembly? Coding another wastebook? (To digress for a moment, I read a fascinating account of how instagram, with a few dozen employees, helped put tens of thousands of people out of work.) If the foreign markets are closed to those items, and the US keeps increasing its imports of steel and cars, is the retraining ineffective? Twenty years ago people were told to re-educate themselves in IT and the service sector. Yet, I shift my accounting, software development, and many kinds of other back-office functions to India and the Philippines. Countries like France, Italy, and Germany are better protected because their languages are not global. How many Indian paralegals speak Italian? One of my girls is a lawyer. All she does is research US legal cases for US law firms. After years of doing this she knows New York laws, and those of a few other states too, better than Filipino ones. Another girl is an accountant. In her 4 years on the job she has looked at US accounts exclusively.
I have no opposition to retraining, but it needs to have a payoff, and ideally one that's viable for several years. But when Beijing demands US and European companies open their research and development centres in China the know-how is being transferred. Having lost the expertise the UK can no longer build nuclear power plants on its own; France and China have been hired to do so.
[QUOTE=GoodEnough;1943784]Conversely, this week's "Economist" ran a series of articles on globalisation and provided some real data on the benefits to the United States of its 20+ bilateral trade deals. By and large these benefits do not accrue to those without at least college degrees. But for me this argues for a better trained, more technically sophisticated workforce.[/QUOTE]We have to keep in mind in the US about 40 per cent of the population have uni degrees and Germany is about 28 per cent. Is Germany mistaken not training more? BTW, German tertiary education is free. Sadly for many of these US degree holders, they chose the wrong subjects. I suppose they learn how to manage debt. And this is happening in the UK, too. "Give everyone an advanced education," is too broad. It needs to be focussed in subjects that create production, wealth, tax revenue, and build communities. Social activist with a blog who works for clicks and plays ukelele at open mic night in Williamsburg, NYC isn't that career. And day after day the US and UK must keep importing medical workers. Something is amiss. The plot has been lost.
[QUOTE=GoodEnough;1943784]
As others have pointed out, the Philippines plays such a small role in global trade that it remains largely unaffected by movement of capital and FDI. It's problems are mostly rooted in the fact that its protectionist trade and business laws are designed to restrict the inflow of foreign investment and they've certainly achieved that goal. I've heard nothing public from the new President about this subject.[/QUOTE]Yet Korea and Taiwan were very closed to FDI and inbound trade for decades. They erected protectionist barriers everywhere. And it wasn't just the government. Buy a foreign car and someone would scrape a key on it. Children were taught in school to admonish their mums who bought foreign food. The press would continually run campaigns against "overconsumption", and all the items "causing social problems" were foreign made. Korea used to jail people for smoking foreign cigarettes. This wasn't an anti-smoking campaign because domestic cigarettes were lawful; in fact, they were made by a government-owned company. The governments directed investments into the means of production ("We're going to build wealth") and the companies were forced to look overseas for business. Korea's billionaires are the families of Samsung, LG, Hyundai, etc. The Philippines' billionaires are in retail, food & beverage, and real estate. And gambling.
[QUOTE=GoodEnough;1943788]I forgot to mention the complication of accurately calculating "value added. " Many products "imported" by the US and Europe in fact contain components exported from the US and Europe for assembly in a second or third country. So how do we treat the exports and subsequent re-imports of assembled goods? I have no idea. The Philippines for example assembles, but does not manufacture small electrical goods. Since such goods are assembled from components manufactured and designed elsewhere should they count fully as exports from the Philippines? Supply chains have become multinational and perhaps the notion of country of origin is no longer relevant.
GE.[/QUOTE]I agree with you here. My point is that trade deals that don't demand immediate reciprocity by all concerned are bad deals. I have no objection to a Thai-built transmission in a Spanish-assembled SEAT car provided Thailand has opened its market to the products of Spain (which would be under a Thai-EU trade deal). I have no sympathy for "Please wait a decade or two for us to catch up. " You want access now? So do we.
[QUOTE=Hutsori;1943832]I agree with you here. My point is that trade deals that don't demand immediate reciprocity by all concerned are bad deals. I have no objection to a Thai-built transmission in a Spanish-assembled SEAT car provided Thailand has opened its market to the products of Spain (which would be under a Thai-EU trade deal). I have no sympathy for "Please wait a decade or two for us to catch up. " You want access now? So do we.[/QUOTE]I don't either, and I agree with your assessment. However, given that this country makes very little that the rest of the world actually wants--aside from OFWs--it's not really germane to this place which attracts so little in the way of DFI. The fact is that existing regulatory frameworks that discourage investment would have to be dismantled before lopsided trade agreements become a real problem here.
GE.
[QUOTE=GoodEnough;1943835]However, given that this country makes very little that the rest of the world actually wants..
GE.[/QUOTE]Hey not so fast, what about Cebu dried mangoes? Famous all over the world!
Whew, D30 is giving the world a preview of what US foreign policy would look like under a Trump administration. Most likely, the demographics (women, college educated, minorities) will prevent this from happening.
[QUOTE=GoodEnough;1943835]... this place which attracts so little in the way of DFI. The fact is that existing regulatory frameworks that discourage investment would have to be dismantled before lopsided trade agreements become a real problem here.
GE.[/QUOTE]I dunno. I find mongering to be a bit one-sided, depending on who needs it more. And certainly direct "investment" is one-sided if I let it, of the "I will gladly pay you the second Tuesday of next week for Jolibees today". But I'm not a wimp, and don't do business with Whempies.
[QUOTE=Random99;1952170]Whew, D30 is giving the world a preview of what US foreign policy would look like under a Trump administration. Most likely, the demographics (women, college educated, minorities) will prevent this from happening.[/QUOTE]Perhaps Stein may be a dark horse in this race to the bottom?
Read an interesting article today (dated 1-15-17) at Alex Jones' Infowars, entitled "Will the CIA Assassinate Trump?" A year ago, I would have dismissed outright such an article, and even the site. Now, however, after the enormously bizarre events of the past few months, am no longer so sure.
Some effort recently has been made to discredit Infowars as a fake news site. Brings to mind the saying, "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that they're not out to get you. " Ha ha.
Actually, find the Washington Post recently to be more of a fake news site. Blatantly biased and unfair reporting (brings to mind The Philippine Daily Inquirer here) and discredited "news" articles, especially regarding WaPo reporting of alleged Russian activities in the USA. See recent commentaries by Glenn Greenwald at The Intercept.
Surprisingly, John Brennan has been publicly belligerent and antagonistic, even to the point of outright arrogance. Is there really a "shadow" or "deep state" government, which thrives on the huge profits of endless conflicts and perpetual war, running things in the USA?
If so, will there be tangible and adverse consequences for the Philippines and its President, as well as for the US, and its President, in 2017?
Just one man's thoughts and questions.
OM.
[QUOTE=NattyBumpo;1996560] I have a hunch you were refering to Betsy DeVos when you made the above comments. So for your viewing entertainment and possible edification, here is a link to a recent WSJ editorial on Betsy entitled, "The Real Democratic Party, Why not a single Senate Democrat voted for Betsy DeVos." [/QUOTE]I believe the operative term here is "editorial. " The edifying purpose of editorials is to reinforce the thinking of like-minded people, and usually not to educate people with different perspectives. And please be clear that the WSJ's ideological take on the world is rarely consistent with the Democratic Party. So, is there some actual news here?
[QUOTE=SoapySmith;1996824]I believe the operative term here is "editorial. " The edifying purpose of editorials is to reinforce the thinking of like-minded people, and usually not to educate people with different perspectives. And please be clear that the WSJ's ideological take on the world is rarely consistent with the Democratic Party. So, is there some actual news here?[/QUOTE]A good editorial is backed up with supporting facts. Yes, editorials may not tell both sides, but then a lot of so called "straight reporting" these days fail to tell both sides. CNN's election night coverage is a perfect example of biased "straight news".
Did you bother to read the WSJ editiorial. There is a very interesting insight into Cory Booker's motivations. I will quote it here:
"As recently as May 2016, Mr. Booker delivered an impassioned speech at the AFC's annual policy summit in Washington. He boasted about how Newark had been named by the Brookings Institution "the number four city in the country for offering parents real school choice. ".
He described the school-choice cause this way: "We are the last generation, fighting the last big battle to make true on thatthat a child born anywhere in America, from any parents, a child no matter what their race or religion or socio-economic status should have that pathway, should have that equal opportunity, and there is nothing more fundamental to that than education. That is the great liberation. ".
Some liberator. On Tuesday Mr. Booker voted no on Mrs. DeVos.
His calculation is simple. Mr. Booker is angling to run for President in 2020, and to have any chance at the Democratic nomination he needs the unions' blessing. He knows that a large chunk of both the party's delegates and campaign funding comes from the teachers unions, and so he had to repent his school-choice apostasy. ".
The last paragraph is editorial opinion. The 1st two paragraphs are fact. Look, if you don't see the unhealty relationship between the National Teacher's Union and the Democratic Party there is not much I can say to you. The fact is that American union run public schools in the inner cities are a disfunctional disgrace. If they were not we would not be having this conversation. The Dems have no ideas on how to improve things except to throw more money at the problem. At least the Republicans and Mrs. Devos have some new ideas. Why not let them try to improve things? As Trump says, "what have you got to lose?"
So what is wrong with injecting a little competition into the dysfunctional system and allowing charter schools? Please tell me why low income parents should not have a choice in where to send their kids for an education? Just like democrat politicians send their kids to expensive private schools if that is what the parents want or feel their children need. The only rational explanation why Dems fight this is because if school choice were to be succesful it would kill the golden goose. Union dues. I hope Mrs. DeVos will be successful. You should hope she is succesful too! To repeat: the current state of public eduication in the USA is a disgrace and a growing danger to our Democracy.
[QUOTE=NattyBumpo;1996921]A good editorial is backed up with supporting facts. Yes, editorials may not tell both sides, but then a lot of so called "straight reporting" these days fail to tell both sides. CNN's election night coverage is a perfect example of biased "straight news".
Did you bother to read the WSJ editiorial.[/QUOTE]Cannot read the WSJ unless you have a subscription. The interesting issue now is the First Amendment rights. WSJ editor got in trouble about a month ago by asking for objectivity. I got a red card for my Thai post, somewhat expected. Always thought those rights were only for US citizens on US soil. Now it appears there are more imperialistic views of those rights from the US, even though they are getting trampled in the US.
The creampuff crybabies are fading away but not fast enough IMHO. Cheers.
[URL]http://dailycaller.com/2017/02/06/democrats-may-be-on-the-verge-of-becoming-a-permanent-minority-party/[/URL]
The sense I am getting is that there are huge and irreconcilable differences between "the US left (globalists)" and "the US right ("make America great again)". Huge and rancorous divisiveness, not seen since perhaps the days of the America Civil War.
Perhaps this is part of a stratagem created and fomented by the unscrupulous few, to eventually sunder and split apart the USA, for the greater monetary gain of a few plutocrats? "Divide and conquer"?
Just one man's musings.
OM.
[QUOTE=Omega3;1998362]The sense I am getting is that there are huge and irreconcilable differences between "the US left (globalists)" and "the US right ("make America great again)". Huge and rancorous divisiveness, not seen since
Perhaps this is part of a stratagem created and fomented by the unscrupulous few OM.[/QUOTE]Nationalism wherever it is breaking out: Trumpmerica, Brexit, Spain-Greece-Hungary in the eurozone is just push back against the last several decades of neo-liberal (and it isn't left wing!) corporate based globalism. Notice how the US slaps down and smears any semblance of nationalism in countries Russian and Iran that they have not been able to co opt into their globalization scheme.
[QUOTE=Omega3;1998362]The sense I am getting is that there are huge and irreconcilable differences between "the US left (globalists)" and "the US right ("make America great again)". Huge and rancorous divisiveness, not seen since perhaps the days of the America Civil War.
Perhaps this is part of a stratagem created and fomented by the unscrupulous few, to eventually sunder and split apart the USA, for the greater monetary gain of a few plutocrats? "Divide and conquer"?
Just one man's musings.
OM.[/QUOTE]I can't answer to since the days of the American Civil War as I wasn't around then.
But I believe the civility is gone. 20 some per cent of the voters were afraid to openly state their preference for Donald Trump and just went to the voting booths and voted. Now the left do not want to acknowledge him as president or his platform and will do everything to tear him down. Even worse is the right is ready to pull the carpet out from under the President. Neither political party is in charge, which is how the voters voted. Voters are tired of the do nothing politics.
Once again people want change but just don't take away their freebies!
You nailed it, Dg. OM, too. Irreconcilable. Still, I refuse to let the liberals get away with Trump-bashing given the last eight years of Obummer automatic freeloader freebies, muslim ass kissing, terrorist exonerations and trillion dollar deficits we have all suffered for. The democraps have lost face and power according to.
[URL]http://dailycaller.com/2017/02/06/democrats-may-be-on-the-verge-of-becoming-a-permanent-minority-party.[/URL] I don't want to be civil when I see my country brought to the brink of disaster given the above. I want to shake the shit out of dummies like good enough who is a poster boy for the idiots on the left.
[QUOTE=Dg8787;1998514]
But I believe the civility is gone. 20 some per cent of the voters were afraid to openly state their preference for Donald Trump and just went to the voting booths and voted. Now the left do not want to acknowledge him as president or his platform and will do everything to tear him down. Even worse is the right is ready to pull the carpet out from under the President. Neither political party is in charge, which is how the voters voted. Voters are tired of the do nothing politics.
Once again people want change but just don't take away their freebies![/QUOTE].
[QUOTE=DCups;1998601]You nailed it, Dg. OM, too. Irreconcilable. Still, I refuse to let the liberals get away with Trump-bashing given the last eight years of Obummer automatic freeloader freebies, muslim ass kissing, terrorist exonerations and trillion dollar deficits we have all suffered for. The democraps have lost face and power according to.[/QUOTE]What on Earth have you "suffered" as a result of those supposed transgressions? I'll bet the farm you, your parents and your grandparents suffered a hell of a lot more, genuine suffering and not this phony outrage "suffering" play-acted by the Dems' / Obama's political opponents, as a result of the horrifically failed Republiturd policies that led directly to the Great Republiturd Depression of the late 1920's / early 1930's, the Great Republiturd Reagan Recession of 1981-1983, and the Great Bush / Republiturd Recession of 2008-2009.
No other president of the last 100 years with the possible exception of FDR pulled us out of a deeper economic hole blasted into the system by still favorite Republiturd policies and into major economic recovery relative to where we were when he first took office than Barack Obama. Certainly no Republiturd president in history has bested him on that measure. And there isn't one chance in a trillion President Donald Trumpty-Dumpty is going to even come close to matching the improvements in the economy by the end of his term relative to what was happening in January 2017 as long as he continues to espouse and promote the exact same Supply-Side/Trickle-Down/lax regulation enforcement Republiturd economic nonsense policies that brought us those previous disasters.
[QUOTE=EihTooms;1998618]What on Earth have you "suffered" as a result of those supposed transgressions? I'll bet the farm you, your parents and your grandparents suffered a hell of a lot more, genuine suffering and not this phony outrage "suffering" play-acted by the Dems' / Obama's political opponents, as a result of the horrifically failed Republiturd policies that led directly to the Great Republiturd Depression of the late 1920's / early 1930's, the Great Republiturd Reagan Recession of 1981-1983, and the Great Bush / Republiturd Recession of 2008-2009.
No other president of the last 100 years with the possible exception of FDR pulled us out of a deeper economic hole blasted into the system by still favorite Republiturd policies and into major economic recovery relative to where we were when he first took office than Barack Obama. Certainly no Republiturd president in history has bested him on that measure. And there isn't one chance in a trillion President Donald Trumpty-Dumpty is going to even come close to matching the improvements in the economy by the end of his term relative to what was happening in January 2017 as long as he continues to espouse and promote the exact same Supply-Side/Trickle-Down/lax regulation enforcement Republiturd economic nonsense policies that brought us those previous disasters.[/QUOTE]ElhTooms, it's not worth the effort. These righties only believe what Breitbart and Faux News tell them. They actually believe that Obama was a worse President than George W. Bush. Can you imagine how ill-informed someone has to be to draw that conclusion? They forget that it was on Bush's watch that the most successful foreign attack on USA Soil ever took place, and the reason it took place is because the Bushies ignored the Clinton administration's warning that Al Qaida was the single greatest threat to USA Security. And then Bush / Cheney invaded the wrong country, because they had a hard-on for Iraqi oil, and that catastrophe has given us what is today known as ISIS. And only THEN did Bush preside over the worst economic collapse to befall this country since the Great Depression in 1929 through the 1930's. A collapse so severe that over 1/2 of the entire aggregate wealth of Americans was wiped out. Oh, and BTW, that aggregate wealth was fully restored, and then some, during the 8 years of the Obama Presidency. But god forbid, people had to actually buy adequate health insurance under Obama, rather than free-ride on the system with only ER care and catastrophic coverage that was useless if they actually needed it.
And they think that Donald Trump is THEIR savior, not the most corrupt, ill-prepared, fraudulent charlatain ever to hold the office. A guy who Vladamir Putin put into office, and who is an unstable narcissist who is so hung up by the facts that Obama had a bigger crowd at his inauguration, and lost the popular vote by 3 Million citizens (but only the citizens of the well educated states) that he can't even focus on rolling out his first major promise without fucking it up by letting Stephen Bannon try to extend it to Green-Card holders, and as a result, got it blocked in court.
Am getting the very strong sense that there are certain vested interests who would reap enormous financial benefit from destabilizing and splitting the USA, and that destabilization is happening now.
It is in our common best interests to put aside differences and personal rancor. It is not the time for name-calling or casting blame or bickering. We must rise above all this, because we are facing a much more dangerous common threat to us all. We are at an important crossroad.
"United we stand, divided we fall".
OM.
[QUOTE=Member#2041;1998625]ElhTooms, it's not worth the effort. These righties only believe what Breitbart and Faux News tell them. They actually believe that Obama was a worse President than George W. Bush. Can you imagine how ill-informed someone has to be to draw that conclusion? They forget that it was on Bush's watch that the most successful foreign attack on USA Soil ever took place, and the reason it took place is because the Bushies ignored the Clinton administration's warning that Al Qaida was the single greatest threat to USA Security. And then Bush / Cheney invaded the wrong country, because they had a hard-on for Iraqi oil, and that catastrophe has given us what is today known as ISIS. And only THEN did Bush preside over the worst economic collapse to befall this country since the Great Depression in 1929 through the 1930's. A collapse so severe that over 1/2 of the entire aggregate wealth of Americans was wiped out. Oh, and BTW, that aggregate wealth was fully restored, and then some, during the 8 years of the Obama Presidency. But god forbid, people had to actually buy adequate health insurance under Obama, rather than free-ride on the system with only ER care and catastrophic coverage that was useless if they actually needed it.
And they think that Donald Trump is THEIR savior, not the most corrupt, ill-prepared, fraudulent charlatain ever to hold the office. A guy who Vladamir Putin put into office, and who is an unstable narcissist who is so hung up by the facts that Obama had a bigger crowd at his inauguration, and lost the popular vote by 3 Million citizens (but only the citizens of the well educated states) that he can't even focus on rolling out his first major promise without fucking it up by letting Stephen Bannon try to extend it to Green-Card holders, and as a result, got it blocked in court.[/QUOTE]You're right, it's simply not worth the effort or time. People are either bright enough to read, understand and analyze facts and historical trends or they're not. Nothing you can say is going to make them any more intelligent. Further, since Trump supporters appear to inhabit a "fact-free" anti-science, a-historical universe, logical argumentation falls on deaf ears as you're arguing with folks who either do not understand logic and / or who automatically reject anything that doesn't confirm their warped world view. The bottom line for me is that enough people bought into the lunatic rantings of a sociopath who is now our president. That's sad and perhaps it will turn out to be tragic; however, his supporters are the lemmings of US politics and will follow him blindly over the cliff, chanting "American First" (whatever the hell that means) while plummeting to their deaths. So the trick, in my view, is to ignore the orange-skinned buffoon's visage to the extent possible, create your own little world into which his tiny fingers cannot intrude, and avoid confrontations that you cannot win. As a case in point, you might want to read the following:https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/13/opinion/the-latest-voter-fraud-lie.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region®ion=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region&_r=0
GE.
Do you progressives actually read the propaganda and intolerance you post? Do you even care? None of you want to have a serious debate on the issues. I have tried a couple times to elevate the conversation with GE and he backs away every time. Everything you guys say about non-progressives is true about yourselves; you are intolerant, biased, doctrinaire as well as truly misinformed. I am sorry for the name calling, but you guys started it and you won't stop even though you claim otherwise.
I have one question for you geniuses; which side do you think is more tolerant of our little hobby. Progressives or conservatives? Do you not realize that what we like to do with young Asian girls is a capital sin in the Church of the Holy Progressive and church elders would make it a crime if they had the power which sadly you are only too willing to grant them? You are cutting your own throats.
P.S. Since you guys cannot give up on the insults and refuse to have honest debates, I propose this thread be closed. The ISG is about sex not politics. The insults you guys instinctively hurl around are only going to get uglier and uglier. I would like to stay above the fray and not post here, but some of the BS you guys post can't be ignored. I used to think some of you guys were good people, but your intolerant political beliefs are making this assumption impossible to maintain. I understand that this is a sign of the times. Red shirt vs Yellow shirts, but we really should try to keep this crap out of the forum or else there will be open hostilities! Isn't what brings us together Poontang? Sadly we have reached the point where the left and the right in America cannot talk to one another about politics. Eventually one side will prevail. I sincerely hope it is not your side because we will all be a lot worse off if the left wins this fight.
I wish you all the freedom to pursue your dreams and goals. Too bad you do not wish the same for me.
[QUOTE=EihTooms;1998618]What on Earth have you "suffered" [/QUOTE]To Smoothy, 2041, ge and all the other liberal idiots: the USA has suffered from record unemployment, record debt, record bureaucracy and record crime to name a few things. These are some of the reasons why obummer will go down as the worst president in the history of the USA. That and releasing known terrorist criminals so they can plan their next attack. Geez are you really THAT STUPID not to know this? His healthcare system was a disaster from inception. Of course you democrap dolts will fudge the numbers and pick your own nitnoy counterpoints -- fart factoids to disguise this reality. Choke on your beer you worthless pukes. Trump won. Deal with it. Stop whining like a baby with [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140][CodeWord140][/url] and shit in your [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord131][CodeWord131][/url] and in your minds.
Thanks, Natty. I think you you are right on all counts. This thread should be closed as it is not relevant to our hobby and it only exacerbates ill will among normally goodwilled individuals. If ge and others can keep their mouths shut on this topic I will, too.
[QUOTE=NattyBumpo;1998749]Do you progressives actually read the propaganda and intolerance you post? Do you even care? None of you want to have a serious debate on the issues. I have tried a couple times to elevate the conversation with GE and he backs away every time. Everything you guys say about non-progressives is true about yourselves; you are intolerant, biased, doctrinaire as well as truly misinformed. I am sorry for the name calling, but you guys started it and you won't stop even though you claim otherwise.
I have one question for you geniuses; which side do you think is more tolerant of our little hobby. Progressives or conservatives? Do you not realize that what we like to do with young Asian girls is a capital sin in the Church of the Holy Progressive and church elders would make it a crime if they had the power which sadly you are only too willing to grant them? You are cutting your own throats.
P.S. Since you guys cannot give up on the insults and refuse to have honest debates, I propose this thread be closed. The ISG is about sex not politics. The insults you guys instinctively hurl around are only going to get uglier and uglier. I would like to stay above the fray and not post here, but some of the BS you guys post can't be ignored. I used to think some of you guys were good people, but your intolerant political beliefs are making this assumption impossible to maintain. I understand that this is a sign of the times. Red shirt vs Yellow shirts, but we really should try to keep this crap out of the forum or else there will be open hostilities! Isn't what brings us together Poontang? Sadly we have reached the point where the left and the right in America cannot talk to one another about politics. Eventually one side will prevail. I sincerely hope it is not your side because we will all be a lot worse off if the left wins this fight.
I wish you all the freedom to pursue your dreams and goals. Too bad you do not wish the same for me.[/QUOTE].
[QUOTE=DCups;1998758]To Smoothy, 2041, ge and all the other liberal idiots: the USA has suffered from record unemployment, record debt, record bureaucracy and record crime to name a few things. These are some of the reasons why obummer will go down as the worst president in the history of the USA. That and releasing known terrorist criminals so they can plan their next attack. Geez are you really THAT STUPID not to know this? His healthcare system was a disaster from inception. Of course you democrap dolts will fudge the numbers and pick your own nitnoy counterpoints -- fart factoids to disguise this reality. Choke on your beer you worthless pukes. Trump won. Deal with it. Stop whining like a baby with shit in your pants and in your minds.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, but when you start your ranting off with the ludicrous ignorant stupidity that Obama is the worst President in history, when there's not a single objective metric to support that he's even the worst President in the last 3, you have no credibility from the get-go, and you disqualify yourself from having any sort of intelligent discussion on the matter. We ARE dealing with Trump having been given the Presidency by Vladamir Putin and propaganda from Breitbart. Actually what we're doing is making damn sure that when Trump takes the USA down in massive failure, that our own futures are not jeopardized. I've already got property in another country, and a fully thought through exit strategy from the nation in decline that is the USA The fact is, I was ready to blow the bolts on the USA by the end of the Bush administration. I stuck around because Barack Obama vastly improved my life by improving my access to healthcare, and causing my net worth to double what it had been at the end of the Bush Presidency. The fact is, Obamacare has already saved my life, and Obama's fiscal policies doubled my wealth, so I don't need to give any credence to the uninformed rantings of the right. Enjoy the mess you and your orange savior is in the process of creating. I won't need to stick around for it, but I'll certainly be entertained by it from elsewhere.
[QUOTE=Member#2041;1998799]I won't need to stick around for it, but I'll certainly be entertained by it from elsewhere.[/QUOTE]Totally encourage such moves. Vote with your feet. More civilized and peaceful. Unfortunately, the US laws and policies are being influence by non citizens, as in people with no skin in the game. When you find a better country or system, please let me know.
You must be some whacked out drug dealer, 2041. Good riddance.
[QUOTE=Member#2041;1998799] Barack Obama vastly improved my life by improving my access to healthcare, and causing my net worth to double what it had been , [/QUOTE].
I will just say this word is there are a lot of angry people in Latin America right now. One example is CBP is asking DR and other Latin America citizens to sign forms and renounce their American citizenships and they will pay for there flights free back to their home country. If you run around in those countries saying you love what Trump stands for you could become a target. Understand people are not happy with their families who live here being harrassed. Just saying do not run down there talking tough or you might not come back.
Better yet, wear the "Make America Great" hat in Latin America and the Carribean and I am sure people will welcome you with open arms. Ask yourself this question if you had an OBAMA hat on their would you be afraid. You know what happens if you wear the other hat.
Just think we are going back to being hated again and not safe to travel. Do you think Latin America police would ever save you if they knew you loved trump. They will say good luck your going to need it.
One last thing, i would not be running to cuba chasing chicks if i was American. You just might be made an example of because they know no one will save you. When you [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140][CodeWord140][/url] off foreign countries you become a target if you travel there. Tread lightly.
[QUOTE=DCups;1998851]You must be some whacked out drug dealer, 2041. Good riddance.
.[/QUOTE]Nope, just a self-employed diabetic, who couldn't get insurance due to that pre-existing condition prior to Obamacare. The fact that you don't even grasp that 20 million people who had pre-existing conditons couldn't get medical insurance prior to Obamacare, and were able to once the Affordable Healthcare Act got passed, is a textbook example of the sort of ignorance that pervades the Trumpettes. And my net worth doubled because the Stock Market more than doubled and the Real Estate market recovered. Each of those markets collapsed under George W. Bush, and Obama restored them to solvency. Sorry to hear that you didn't actually own a stock portfolio or a home during the robust economic recovery that Obama presided over, but that's not surprising, as most poor uneducated trash didn't.
[QUOTE=Revere;1998865]I will just say this word is there are a lot of angry people in Latin America right now. One example is CBP is asking DR and other Latin America citizens to sign forms and renounce their American citizenships and they will pay for there flights free back to their home country. If you run around in those countries saying you love what Trump stands for you could become a target. Understand people are not happy with their families who live here being harrassed. Just saying do not run down there talking tough or you might not come back.[/QUOTE]No biggie, this is just Darwin in action, and Trumpettes don't believe in Evolution.
You must have a hearing disability, too, in addition to mental retardation. I own a home, a business, plenty of stock and have a PhD. Lay off the sugar -- you seem quite unbalanced. Don't let the door hit you in the ass when you leave the country like all the other liberals promised to do.
[QUOTE=Member#2041;1998866]. Sorry to hear that you didn't actually own a stock portfolio or a home during the robust economic recovery that Obama presided over, but that's not surprising, as most poor uneducated trash didn't.[/QUOTE].
[QUOTE=DCups;1998880]You must have a hearing disability, too, in addition to mental retardation. I own a home, a business, plenty of stock and have a PhD. Lay off the sugar -- you seem quite unbalanced. Don't let the door hit you in the ass when you leave the country like all the other liberals promised to do.
.[/QUOTE]So answer this: How the fuck did YOUR net worth not double under Obama's Presidency? Obviously, it didn't, because you stated that because mine did, I must be a drug dealer. You must be a complete fucking imbecile to not have made money while holding a stock portfolio under Obama, and not have your house go UP in value under Obama. PhD notwithstanding, only idiots and people who had no assets of significance did not have their financial situation improve as a result of the Obama presidency. And since you HAD assets, idiocy is the only other explanation.
Sorry you missed it when Obama turned the U.S. economy, which was a falling knife he inherited when taking office, and his policies saved it. I appreciate the level of resentment you must have, what with a graduate degree, business and home ownership, and yet you STILL managed to fucking miss out on the most dramatic economic turnaround in 75 years. If I had fucked up that badly, I'd be resentful of everyone else who didn't too. I get it, you have my sympathy. Meanwhile, if you and your ilk and your orange savior DO manage to take the U.S. down the shitter, I won't have to go swirling down the drain with you.
My financial, professional and educational success has nothing to do with anything obummer did or didn't do. Hard work and intelligence TRUMPS lazy freeloading liberalism despite all odds. Geez even people in the depression got rich. Please take your meds 2041 before you blow a gasket and become 0000.
[QUOTE=Member#2041;1998886]So answer this: How the fuck did YOUR net worth not double under Obama's Presidency? Obviously, it didn't, because you stated that because mine did, I must be a drug dealer. You must be a complete fucking imbecile to not have made money while holding a stock portfolio under Obama, and not have your house go UP in value under Obama. PhD notwithstanding, only idiots and people who had no assets of significance did not have their financial situation improve as a result of the Obama presidency.[/QUOTE].
Yes, 2041, congratulations, you have made me a believer of the missing link. Will you leave the USA Now?
[QUOTE=Member#2041;1998870]No biggie, this is just Darwin in action, and Trumpettes don't believe in Evolution.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=DCups;1998895]My financial, professional and educational success has nothing to do with anything obummer did or didn't do. Hard work and intelligence TRUMPS lazy freeloading liberalism despite all odds. Geez even people in the depression got rich. Please take your meds 2041 before you blow a gasket and become 0000.
.[/QUOTE]The simple, objective fact is, YOU stated that because my net worth doubled under Obama, I must be a whacked out drug dealer. The ONLY rational conclusion that can be drawn from that statement is that you, not being a drug dealer, failed to achieve anything remotely approaching that level of financial success during the Obama Presidency. Which, since you owned stock, and a home, and a business, yet FAILED to achieve significant financial gains during the Obama administration, are clearly a completely incompetent imbecile.
In case you missed it, and obviously, you did, the Stock market increased by about 150% during the Obama Presidency. After declining significantly during the Bush Presidency. Home Equity also dramatically improved during the Obama Presidency, after declining precipitously during the last 3 years of the Bush Presidency. The simple fact is, Obama deserves a portion of the credit for those things. If YOU gained from those things, you DO owe some of that to Obama. And if you DIDN'T gain from those things, you must be the dumbest stock, home, and business-owning PhD to ever come down the pike. Which would certainly explain the resentment and jealousy you feel toward others at your own inadequacy and incompetence. In any case, we're done here, because you're clearly too stupid to grow intellectually. And BTW, I have advanced degrees too, most likely from better schools than yours, but I don't bother trying to flog them as a means of trying to validate otherwise moronic comments that I've made on the internet to my intellectual superiors, as you do. Sorry that I struck a nerve.
You credit obummer for your wealth? Fascinating! What other government programs are you freeloading on? Well, I concede I was wrong about you being a drug dealer but the "whacked out" part remains true.
When are you leaving the country? Can we help you with your one-way ticket?
[QUOTE=Member#2041;1998901]The simple, objective fact is, YOU stated that because my net worth doubled under Obama, I must be a whacked out drug dealer. .[/QUOTE].
It just blows my mind when progressives say Obama did good vis a vis the economy or foreign affairs. The truth is he presided over the worst economic expansion in modern US history. The economy under Obama never grew at 3%. Furthermore, it is economic history that the more severe a downturn, the faster and more robust the economic recovery will be.
Now the question inquiring minds might want to ask is why didn't the US economy grow in a robust way during the Obama years? The answer that I am sure most of you progressives' do not want to hear is simple:
No democratically elected government presiding over a modern economy in the last 150 years has spent, borrowed and regulated its economy into prosperity. WOW! Amazing but true, because this is just not the way modern economies work and to advocate such a policy indicates a basic misunderstanding of economics or a desire to accomplish something else like wealth redistribution which never works either. Just look at Venezuela or the history of Argentina for starters. The simple truth is lower taxes and less regulation is the only way to stimulate an modern economy in order to achieve real, I say REAL, lasting results. I do not fault Obama for what he initially did in 2008. He was a neophyte and did not know any better. But by 2010 it was clear that his economic policies were not working. Only a zealot would have stuck by such failed policies and put the country through the last 6 years.
Note: in 2012 Obama did not run on his record because he could not. Instead he ran on racial identity politics and a phony "war on women" campaign that falsely painted Romney as an insensitive, racist (Progressives love to call anybody who disagrees with their religion racist), misogynist, rich man. And somehow, he pulled it off and won an undeserved 2nd term.
Hey its 2016 and you progressive believers now have an inkling of how we felt when the "amateur" was re-elected in 2012. But we did not go screwy in the head the way the left is behaving now. It's called Trump Derangement Syndrome. I think a few of you guys are suffering from it right now. Relax and calm down. Everything will be ok. The sky is not falling. But don't forget this important point: TRUMP IS OBAMA's LEGACY. If there had been no 2nd term Obama, there would be no President Trump. Under a President Romney the economy would be humming at 3 to 4%, the Syria refugee crises would never have happened, and there would not have been the disasterous shameful Iran nuke deal that guarantees Iran nuclear weapons in 10 years or so. Yeah, Obama was a great president. If you believe that you have swallowed the Kool Aid and lost your rational mind.
Sorry Natty, that's complete fiction. In actual fact there has NEVER been a STRONGER economic recovery from as deep a chasm as the one Obama inherited in 2009. That's because there has only been ONE economic downturn that bad in the past 150 years, and that was the one that Roosevelt inherited from Herbert Hoover. And in point of fact, the recovery from the Great Depression was weaker than the recovery Obama oversaw, for more than 9 years. The only thing that actually got the USA Economy moving again after the Great Depression was the buildup for WWII, a solid 11 years after the Great Depression and Stock Market crash happened in 1929. No other economic downturn in USA History is comparable to those two, because they both combined massive contractions in economic activity, and the failures of the financial infrastructure itself in both instances. When Obama took over, we were literally losing 700,000 jobs a month. Obama's stimulus put an end to that within a year (which, BTW, is what ANY economic policy requires to affect job growth. Unemployment lags the actual economic conditions by at least 9, and more typically 12 months). The fact is, the asymptote in the employment curve took place 11 months after Obama's stimulus package was approved. Under Obama, after that first year catastrophe he inherited, the economy has been adding over 200 K jobs per year, consistently for over 6 years. The fact is, Obama DID preside over economic expansion. That didn't just magically happen, it took strong measures to pull the economy out of the complete collapse that it was in during 2008, and it took over a year and a half just to end the nosedive. But that nosedive caused major systemic problems that still are a drag today, but they are FAR less serious than they were.
The claim that more severe downturns are typically followed by more rapid upturns is, quite simply as flat out wrong as it could be. That claim is utter nonsense. More severe downturns have always been followed by LESS robust recoveries.
BTW, the comparison with Venezuela is delusional, Obama never put forth anything remotely like the controlled state-run economy that exists there. A much more relevant comparison for Obama's desired programs - most of which were never implemented due to Republican obstruction in Congress, except for healthcare, would be with the Democratic Socialist safety net approach that exists in Scandanavian countries, and New Zealand. Which, BTW, are the most prosperous countries in the world per capita. And frankly the claim that Obamacare is a death-spiral failed program is a fiction. The simple fact is, it was a two phased approach. Phase 1 was to provide near universality of coverage with containment of cost increases, and AFTER near universality would be achieved, only then could cost-containment start to kick in. The fact is, we're still not out of phase 1 yet. But even so, healthcare costs under the ACA have still gone up LESS rapidly than they were increasing under the pre-Obamacare world. Even as the healthcare industry was extending coverage to 10-20 million additional citizens who happen to be the ones with the highest costs to serve because of pre-existing conditions. The fact is, Obamacare WAS working, and was doing what it was designed to do. One of Obama's great failures as President was that he didn't successfully make that case to the American people, and they only began to discover it on their own - several years into the program. So NOW, ironically, when Republicans and Trump are hell-bent to get rid of it, only now has a majority of the American population come to realize how much that they are BENEFITTING from it.
As for foreign affairs, Obama's record is mixed, certainly not great, but it is still VASTLY superior to the disastrous record of George W. Bush, who failed to defend against a successful massive attack on USA Soil, and started two disastrous wars, one of which spawned what is now ISIS, and the other of which we are still not completely extracted from.
I did not say Obama was a "great President". He was, in point of fact, an just a somewhat above average President - he ddin't accomplish anywhere near enough after his first 2 years in office to be considered great, because he never figured out how to overcome Congressional obstruction. But, quite simply, only a completely brainwashed moron with total amnesia concerning the disastrous period from 2001 to 2008, during which time we were successfully invaded by 15 guys with boxcutters, and proceeded to embark on two of the four most disastrous wars in American history, and only THEN presided over the 2nd worst economic collapse in American history would suggest that he wasn't a better President than George W. Bush, however.
And if you want to know why Obama defeated Mitt Romney in 2012, I'll explain it: It's because Romney never articulated any economic platform that differed in any way from that of George W. Bush - and a strong majority of the American public did NOT have amnesia about just how disastrous the Bush Presidency was. Romney even let political rancor cause him to disavow his own creation - the healthcare plan in Massachussetts that WORKS, and which is the entire basis for Obamacare. If Romney had actually take CREDIT for Obamacare, instead of contorting himself into claiming it was so evil, when he himself had implemented a virtually identical plan in Massachussetts that was a success, he might well have won - instead, HE is the one who played identity politics and claimed that half of all Americans were just lazy bums. That's why Obama spanked Romney (who, I admit, would be a FAR more capable President than Trump will be) because Romney wouldn't embrace his own beliefs and policies, because they weren't radically conservative enough for the rest of the Republican party.
[QUOTE=NattyBumpo;1998925]It just blows my mind when progressives say Obama did good vis a vis the economy or foreign affairs. The truth is he presided over the worst economic expansion in modern US history. The economy under Obama never grew at 3%. Furthermore, it is economic history that the more severe a downturn, the faster and more robust the economic recovery will be.
Now the question inquiring minds might want to ask is why didn't the US economy grow in a robust way during the Obama years? The answer that I am sure most of you progressives' do not want to hear is simple:
No democratically elected government presiding over a modern economy in the last 150 years has spent, borrowed and regulated its economy into prosperity. WOW! Amazing but true, because this is just not the way modern economies work and to advocate such a policy indicates a basic misunderstanding of economics or a desire to accomplish something else like wealth redistribution which never works either. Just look at Venezuela or the history of Argentina for starters. The simple truth is lower taxes and less regulation is the only way to stimulate an modern economy in order to achieve real, I say REAL, lasting results. I do not fault Obama for what he initially did in 2008. He was a neophyte and did not know any better. But by 2010 it was clear that his economic policies were not working. Only a zealot would have stuck by such failed policies and put the country through the last 6 years.
Note: in 2012 Obama did not run on his record because he could not. Instead he ran on racial identity politics and a phony "war on women" campaign that falsely painted Romney as an insensitive, racist (Progressives love to call anybody who disagrees with their religion racist), misogynist, rich man. And somehow, he pulled it off and won an undeserved 2nd term.
Hey its 2016 and you progressive believers now have an inkling of how we felt when the "amateur" was re-elected in 2012. But we did not go screwy in the head the way the left is behaving now. It's called Trump Derangement Syndrome. I think a few of you guys are suffering from it right now. Relax and calm down. Everything will be ok. The sky is not falling. But don't forget this important point: TRUMP IS OBAMA's LEGACY. If there had been no 2nd term Obama, there would be no President Trump. Under a President Romney the economy would be humming at 3 to 4%, the Syria refugee crises would never have happened, and there would not have been the disasterous shameful Iran nuke deal that guarantees Iran nuclear weapons in 10 years or so. Yeah, Obama was a great president. If you believe that you have swallowed the Kool Aid and lost your rational mind.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Member#2041;1998956]
The claim that more severe downturns are typically followed by more rapid upturns is, quite simply as flat out wrong as it could be. That claim is utter nonsense. More severe downturns have always been followed by LESS robust recoveries.
BTW, the comparison with Venezuela is delusional, Obama never put forth anything remotely like the controlled state-run economy that exists there. A much more relevant comparison for Obama's desired programs - most of which were never implemented due to Republican obstruction in Congress, except for healthcare, would be with the Democratic Socialist safety net approach that exists in Scandanavian countries, and New Zealand. Which, BTW, are the most prosperous countries in the world per capita. And frankly the claim that Obamacare is a death-spiral failed program is a fiction. The simple fact is, it was a two phased approach. Phase 1 was to provide near universality of coverage with containment of cost increases, and AFTER near universality would be achieved, only then could cost-containment start to kick in. The fact is, we're still not out of phase 1 yet. But even so, healthcare costs under the ACA have still gone up LESS rapidly than they were increasing under the pre-Obamacare world. Even as the healthcare industry was extending coverage to 10-20 million additional citizens who happen to be the ones with the highest costs to serve because of pre-existing conditions. The fact is, Obamacare WAS working, and was doing what it was designed to do. One of Obama's great failures as President was that he didn't successfully make that case to the American people, and they only began to discover it on their own - several years into the program. So NOW, ironically, when Republicans and Trump are hell-bent to get rid of it, only now has a majority of the American population come to realize how much that they are BENEFITTING from it.
I did not say Obama was a "great President". He was, in point of fact, an just a somewhat above average President - he ddin't accomplish anywhere near enough after his first 2 years in office to be considered great, because he never figured out how to overcome Congressional obstruction. But, quite simply, only a completely brainwashed moron with total amnesia concerning the disastrous period from 2001 to 2008, during which time we were successfully invaded by 15 guys with boxcutters, and proceeded to embark on two of the four most disastrous wars in American history, and only THEN presided over the 2nd worst economic collapse in American history would suggest that he wasn't a better President than George W. Bush, however.[/QUOTE]Thanks for presenting such a logical, fact-based argument. When the other side of the debate relies less of verifiable fact and argues from the "Never mind, I know what I know," perspective however, logic flies out the window.
There's another admittedly intangible feature called grace and dignity that the Obamas bought to the White House; factors that stand in stark contrast to the tasteless clown who currently occupies the dwelling.
GE.
Seems like the division is getting even greater. I will continue to maintain civility here.
A friend of mine just hates President Trump and posts non stop crap about him on FB almost daily for the past 6 months. Opposes every Presidential cabinet appointment just because it is a Trump appointment. Today, LOL today he likes a post praising Trump's team for listening to the Pilots Union request to overturn Obama's decision to allow Norwegian Airlines to operate in US. Of course he is a SW pilot that would be greatly affected by the foreign carrier. Now he doesn't mind this exclusion to save American jobs (his own), but deporting illegals or a 90 day travel ban? Hell no!
As I stated before, the problem is we all have our own self interest as a priority which will cause our own demise. When we vote we vote for a platform of issues, not just our singular ones. Some we like some we don't. Over all are we better off or not? If not we vote again.
Member #2041, I appreciate the effort it took to write your response. I am further heartened by the fact that you do consider Obama a great president. "I did not say Obama was a "great President". He was, in point of fact, an just a somewhat above average President. He didn't accomplish anywhere near enough after his first 2 years in office to be considered great, because he never figured out how to overcome Congressional obstruction." Maybe he didn't accomplish anything with Congress because he lacked the ability or confidence to negotiate and or compromise to get what he wanted. Other Presidents faced great hurtles in dealing with the opposition party in Congress too, but they overcome those problems for the good of the country. Example: Ron Reagan and Bill Clinton. Obama couldn't or wouldn't. He just was not up to the job.
Anyway, you asserted a lot of points in your post. Perhaps I can agree on some; I know I disagree on many. But I will give you the respect you deserve to look it over carefully and respond in due course. I do note that the economy expanded during the Obama presidency. My point is the recovery could have been stronger and real wages should have gone up, which they did not. And to get what little Obama got he doubled the National Debt to 20 Trillion Dollars by borrowing more money than all other Presidents combined. If nothing is done to reduce this debt it will one day destroy us.
I have attached a chart from the Minneapolis Federal Reserve that shows GDP growth in the quarters following every recession since WW2. Clearly you can see that Obama's recovery is the weakest. Briefly on the Great Depression, I am sure you are aware, that there was a 2nd recesson in 1937-38 that compounded the problem, but provided evidence that Keynesian fiscal economic policies were a failure. Governments just can't spend their way out of recessions. I am sorry. It just doesn't work that way.
[QUOTE=NattyBumpo;1998996]Member #2041, I appreciate the effort it took to write your response. I am further heartened by the fact that you do consider Obama a great president. "I did not say Obama was a "great President". He was, in point of fact, an just a somewhat above average President. He didn't accomplish anywhere near enough after his first 2 years in office to be considered great, because he never figured out how to overcome Congressional obstruction." Maybe he didn't accomplish anything with Congress because he lacked the ability or confidence to negotiate and to compromise to get what he wanted. Other Presidents faced great hurtles in dealing with the opposition party in Congress too, but they overcome those problems for the good of the country. Example: Ron Reagan and Bill Clinton. Obama couldn't or wouldn't. He wasn't up to the job.
Anyway, you asserted a lot of points in your post. Perhaps I can agree on some; I know I disagree on many. But I will give you the respect you deserve to look it over carefully and respond in due course. I do note that the economy expanded during the Obama presidency. My point is the recovery could have been stronger and real wages should have gone up, which they did not. I have attached a chart from the Minneapolis Federal Reserve that shows GDP growth in the quarters following every recession since WW2. Clearly you can see that Obama's recovery is the weakest. Briefly on the Great Depression, I am sure you are aware, that there was a 2nd recesson in 1937-38 that compounded the problem, but provided evidence that Keynesian fiscal economics policies were a failure. Governments just can't spend their way out of recessions. I am sorry. It just doesn't work that way.[/QUOTE]Natty, I appreciate the fact that, unlike D Cups, you were at least willing to have a discussion on the actual merits of Obama's Presidency, rather than just resorting to the parroting of mindless blather and meritless slurs. Which is why I gave you the respect of a reply on the merits as well.
Whether or not I agree with you about why Obama was unable to overcome Congressional obstruction, it's somewhat of a moot point. It was Obama's job to martial public opinion behind his policies, and have the public force the Congress to acede to the will of the public, and it's apparent that he was unable to do that. That being said, it certainly is true that no President other than Roosevelt ever had to deal with as badly collapsed an economy as Obama, and frankly, the recovery under Obama was more robust than the recovery under Roosevelt for the first 8 years. As I said, it really took WWII for the USA To grow it's way out of the Great Depression. And it is also the case that Obama did not JUST inherit a shrinking economy, he also inherited a collapsed financial infrastructure, and situation where over half of all aggregated wealth in the economy had vanished. Frankly, if one looks impartially at the degree to which the engines of economic growth had been destroyed in 2008 prior to Obama taking office, the fact that he got the USA From rapid contraction to admittedly tepid growth as quickly as he did, is actually unprecedented. The fact is, ALL of the growth that was occurring in the economy up to 2008 had been fueled by an explosion of credit based upon stock market appreciation and increased home equity. Those underpinnings were completely blown away during the financial collapse from 2006-2009. Before Obama could even hope to see economic growth, he had to restore the credit markets back to viability. And that took the better part of 2 years to happen, and even now, credit is much tighter than it was in the early 2000's. That's the main reason that growth coming out of that recession has been less than robust. People were sitting on mounds of debt, and had to pay a substantial amount of that back before they could even begin to consume actual goods with their partially restored wealth. I'm quite sure that, a rigorous analysis of the recovery under Obama will actually show that it was as robust as could reasonably be hoped for, given the structural failure that brought about the recession. If anything, I believe that the failure of Obama's 2009 stimulus package was that it was too small, rather than it was too aggressive. Frankly, that was the time that the USA Infrastructure deficiencies should have been addressed, with a MASSIVE infusion of government construction projects, probably double the size of what was actually done. If not for the significant government spending that did happen, growth would have been more anemic than the 1-2% that we DID see in the out years of Obama's Presidency. The reason that real wages have not gone up is a function of globalization - the WORLD's wages are going up, but since we are at the leading edge of those wages, the constant drive to outsource production is what keeps U.S. wages from rising. The fact is, with ubiquitous broadband communication, there is an inexorable leveling of wage rates around the world. Donald Trump's push toward protectionism and wall-building won't stop it - it's fundamentally unstoppable as a trend.
I'll also go on record that the Affordable Care Act is actually doing as well as any alternative program could have, other than a national expansion of Medicare / Medicaid into a single-payer program. The fact is, the existing system had fully failed prior to Obamacare. Mitt Romney recognized it, and went against Republican orthodoxy to implement essentially the same program as Obamacare in Massachussetts. And it worked. And if given another 3 years, Obamacare would have accomplished near universality of coverage AND cost containment. But the simple fact is, true cost containment could never be achieved while more and more sicker people were being brought into the system. Nonetheless, the cost increases have been brought down from what they were prior to Obamacare, while at the same time, bringing nearly 20 million more people into the ranks of the insured. Once those folks had been brought into the system, from that point forward, the productivity gains could be applied to cost containment for a relatively fixed level of service, rather than expansion of service to more sicker patients, which is what we've been observing so far.
That being said, I emphasize again, that there is a world of difference between claiming that Obama was a great President, and the really unassailable case that he was a far better President than his predecessor, George W. Bush. It may be a low bar to clear, but at least if we're being honest, it is a bar that Obama EASILY DID CLEAR. It's frankly impossible to have a conversation on the merits when someone starts out with the extreme and indefensible position that Obama was the worst President EVER, when there is no plausible way to make the case that his immediate predecessor was not FAR worse, and that the catastrophic scenario that Obama inherited has to be taken into consideration when he is evaluated for posterity. The simple fact is, in 2016, we were in FAR better shape than we were in 2008. And I take issue with your premise that the depths of the 2008 recession should have made the Obama recovery more robust, when quite clearly, the severity of the crisis, along with the collapse of financial infrastructure and all available credit, represented an ongoing boat-anchor to the recovery, which NO policies or person would have been able to fully overcome in a more rapid timeframe.
Funny stuff. [URL]http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/many-in-nation-tired-of-explaining-things-to-idiots[/URL].
[QUOTE=Member#2041;1998956]If Romney had actually take CREDIT for Obamacare, instead of contorting himself into claiming it was so evil, when he himself had implemented a virtually identical plan in Massachussetts that was a success, he might well have won - [/QUOTE]Perhaps. One thing to consider is that in the Congressional elections of 2010, 2012, and 2014 Obama lost his majority in the House (2010) and then the Senate (2014). This all happened after Obama Care became law. Further, the Democrats saw their party lose many state governor houses and legislatures. Much of this was due to the Tea Party, which I doubt would have been receptive to Obama-esque anything, and the inability of the Democrats to get out the vote during mid-term elections. I think this limited Romney's flexibility. Obama's charisma wasn't transitive to others in his party. Reagan's was.
Not only did Reagan win more than 50% of the vote with a strongish third-party candidate participating, he then built on that by winning almost 59% in '84 - Obama's numbers went down by about 3m votes in '12. Reagan set up Bush the elder for victory in '88, and I think Bush could have won in '92 had it not been for the economic contraction, Perot, and "Read my lips, no new taxes. " (Yes, I've read the articles saying Perot didn't take votes away from Bush, but I'm unconvinced.) Clinton bashed Bush for breaking that tax pledge, which is kind of a remarkable event that a Democrat would use opposition to increased tax as a strategy. That's how far to the right the Democrats swung, all due to Reagan. Even Obama could hardly be called at Roosevelt, Truman, or LBJ Democrat.
Economic recovery was both Bush and Obama. TARP was enacted in Oct 2008, so that's Bush (and Congress). A set of mixed measures, such as TALF and CPP, shored up the banks, which at least brought stability back in a time of panic. I understand all the banks minus AIG repaid their rescue packages with interest. The automakers were also rescued by TARP because GM's and Chrysler's bankruptcies were orderly and millions were not tossed out of the factories. This is no comfort to those whose pensions were affected.
Though $100B was budgeted to remedy it, TARP did little to ease the foreclosure crisis because only $21B was spent. The result was about 10m homes were foreclosed. That's on both Bush and Obama, but I think Obama's share of the blame is larger since he had 8 years to redress this. Obama's Home Affordable Modification Program had the Treasury Department alone decide to run it through mortgage companies that had financial incentives to foreclose rather than modify loans. In 2010 it was revealed the mortgage companies were still perpetrating fraud to squeeze the borrowers, yet little was done to punish those involved. The borrowers were used to "foam the runway", allowing mortgage companies time to absorb inevitable foreclosures more slowly. Homeowners were the foam being crushed by a jumbo jet in that scenario, squeezed for as many payments as possible before ultimately losing their homes. You may read Neil Barofsky's book Bailout: An Inside Account Of How Washington Abandoned Main Street While Rescuing Wall Street - Barofsky was the congressionally appointed watchdog of TARP. "Treasury's bungling of HAMP and its refusal to heed our warnings and those of other TARP oversight bodies resulted in the program harming many of the people it was supposed to help. " This happened under Geithner's Treasury Department, and that's Obama.
I think Romney should have attacked Obama on home foreclosures, yet he's a traditional Republican and challenging business interests isn't in their DNA.
Looking at the 2016 election, I think anger at Wall St, i.e. banks, figured prominently. Look how Sanders eviscerated Clinton for her series of $250 k speeches to it. Much as been made about sexism, racism, "fake news", the FBI, and Russian hackers, but I think a lot of voters were deeply upset, if not enraged, that Wall St was bailed out and homeowners weren't. They learnt of Clinton pocketing cheque after cheque, and people justifiably saw that as their tax dollars going into her bank account. If I were a voter I wouldn't have voted for her just for that alone. Collect your reward once you're finished with public service entirely. It's astonishing how unaware she was of public sentiment. Maybe she thought the public wouldn't learn of these since these were private speeches, yet she should have learnt from her Bosnia under-sniper-fire incident and other episodes that these tend to blow up in one's face. For a person who was supposedly very intelligent and highly experienced, she sure was amazingly adroit in charging into problems of her own making.
[QUOTE=Hutsori;1999093]Perhaps. One thing to consider is that in the Congressional elections of 2010, 2012, and 2014 Obama lost his majority in the House (2010) and then the Senate (2014). This all happened after Obama Care became law. Further, the Democrats saw their party lose many state governor houses and legislatures. Much of this was due to the Tea Party, which I doubt would have been receptive to Obama-esque anything, and the inability of the Democrats to get out the vote during mid-term elections. I think this limited Romney's flexibility. Obama's charisma wasn't transitive to others in his party. Reagan's was.
Not only did Reagan win more than 50% of the vote with a strongish third-party candidate participating, he then built on that by winning almost 59% in '84 - Obama's numbers went down by about 3m votes in '12. Reagan set up Bush the elder for victory in '88, and I think Bush could have won in '92 had it not been for the economic contraction, Perot, and "Read my lips, no new taxes. " (Yes, I've read the articles saying Perot didn't take votes away from Bush, but I'm unconvinced.) Clinton bashed Bush for breaking that tax pledge, which is kind of a remarkable event that a Democrat would use opposition to increased tax as a strategy. That's how far to the right the Democrats swung, all due to Reagan. Even Obama could hardly be called at Roosevelt, Truman, or LBJ Democrat.
Economic recovery was both Bush and Obama. TARP was enacted in Oct 2008, so that's Bush (and Congress). A set of mixed measures, such as TALF and CPP, shored up the banks, which at least brought stability back in a time of panic. I understand all the banks minus AIG repaid their rescue packages with interest. The automakers were also rescued by TARP because GM's and Chrysler's bankruptcies were orderly and millions were not tossed out of the factories. This is no comfort to those whose pensions were affected.
Though $100B was budgeted, TARP did little to ease the foreclosure crisis because only $21B was spent. The result was about 10m homes were foreclosed. That's on both Bush and Obama, but I think Obama's share of the blame is larger since he had 8 years to redress this. Obama's Home Affordable Modification Program had the Treasury Department alone decide to run it through mortgage companies that had financial incentives to foreclose rather than modify loans. In 2010 it was revealed the mortgage companies were still perpetrating fraud to squeeze the borrowers, yet little was done to punish those involved. The borrowers were used to "foam the runway", allowing mortgage companies time to absorb inevitable foreclosures more slowly. Homeowners were the foam being crushed by a jumbo jet in that scenario, squeezed for as many payments as possible before ultimately losing their homes. You may read Neil Barofsky's book Bailout: An Inside Account Of How Washington Abandoned Main Street While Rescuing Wall Street - Barofsky was the congressionally appointed watchdog of TARP. "Treasury's bungling of HAMP and its refusal to heed our warnings and those of other TARP oversight bodies resulted in the program harming many of the people it was supposed to help. " This happened under Geithner's Treasury Department, and that's Obama.
I think Romney should have attacked Obama on home foreclosures, yet he's a traditional Republican and challenging business interests isn't in their DNA.
Looking at the 2016 election, I think anger at Wall St, i.e. banks, figured prominently. Look how Sanders eviscerated Clinton for her series of $250 k speeches to it. Much as been made about sexism, racism, "fake news", the FBI, and Russian hackers, but I think a lot of voters were deeply upset, if not enraged, that Wall St was bailed out and homeowners weren't. They learnt of Clinton pocketing cheque after cheque, and people justifiably saw that as their tax dollars going into her bank account. If I were a voter I wouldn't gave voted for her just for that. Collect your reward once you're finished with public service entirely. It's astonishing how unaware she was of public sentiment. Maybe she thought the public wouldn't learn of these since these were private speeches, yet she should have learnt from her Bosnia under-sniper-fire incident and other episodes that these tend to blow up in one's face. For a person who was supposedly very intelligent and highly experienced, she sure was amazingly adroit in charging into problems of her own making.[/QUOTE]TARP version 1 passed under Bush in October of 2008, but frankly, Tim Geithner created the program for Paulson, and Obama was instrumental in getting it passed, because he strongly endorsed it, when McCain's campaign was flailing without any coherent strategy to deal with the financial crisis. Frankly, TARP was initially half-baked until Geithner fully baked it, and was appointed Obama's Treasury Secretary to carry it out. There also was a follow-on TARP II which passed during Obama's first month in office. Both TARP laws were Tim Geithner's creations, and he was all along going to be Obama's Treasury Secretary even when he was working for Paulson during the last months of the Bush Presidency. In fact, Geithner had some improprieties in his personal taxes, and his nomination would have sunk because of those improprieties, except that Obama stood hard by him because he knew that Geithner was far and away the key expert on what the program needed to do and how to do it.
BTW, I agree that Clinton has several shady dealings with Wall Street, but they actually pale into insignificance compared to Trump's shady dealings with Wall Street. But Trump's supporters refused to hold him accountable in the way that they held Clinton accountable for shady dealings that were 1-2 orders of magnitude smaller than Trump's shady deals. Trump was actually telling the truth when he stated that he could murder someone on 5th Avenue and the voters would give him a pass for it. That was actually the most truthful statement he made during his entire campaign.
[QUOTE=NattyBumpo;1998925]It just blows my mind when progressives say Obama did good vis a vis the economy or foreign affairs. The truth is he presided over the worst economic expansion in modern US history. The economy under Obama never grew at 3%. Furthermore, it is economic history that the more severe a downturn, the faster and more robust the economic recovery will be.[/QUOTE]I'll take a slower than usual Democratic / Obama economic recovery over your typical Republican Great Depression / Recession any day. This one was slower because Republican Party leadership in Congress agreed among themselves and pledged on the night of Obama's first inauguration not to help the incoming President pass anything or do anything to pull us out of the worst economic downturn their own Republican Party policies produced, figuring they could blame the slow recovery on Obama and the Dems in the minds of dimwits who likely have no idea what a cloture vote is and ride that lie back to congressional wins in subsequent elections. Shrewd move. They were right.
Obama not having even the bare minimum 60 Democratic seats in the Senate generally required to pass anything of significance for even a single day of his presidency (he only had a bare minimum 60 seat Democratic majority "caucus", which is not the same as having all 60 seats being Democratic Party seats, for about 12 unpredictable, sporadic weeks during his first year in office), meant the Republican Senate minority could slow walk, delay, obfuscate, obstruct or outright block all the known and well-tested methods for pulling the USA Economy out of those patented Great Republican Depressions / Recessions. And that is exactly what they did.
There was no counterpart to that kind of political party leadership pledge to obstruction in the aftermath of the previous Great Republican Depressions / Recessions. The Republican Party presence in the House and Senate was too paltry during the FDR years to block his Dem recovery measures. The Democratic Party majorities in the House and Senate under Reagan weren't about to make the country suffer longer than necessary for purely political reasons when they were faced with pulling us out of Reagan's Great Recession. The Republican Party congressional minorities were not about to dig in too much to block what G. W. Bush had to do under duress and at the last minute to pull us out of his Great Crash / Recession at the end of his presidency because, hey, he was one of their own.
Of course, a handful of House Republicans still managed to trigger the biggest panic stock market sell-off Crash since the Stock Market Crash of October 1929 when they pulled their "yes" votes at the last minute on that first TARP vote on September 29, 2008, contrary to what G.W. Bush asked of them. That was horrifically damaging enough for our economy and those of many other countries around the planet, particularly on an important psychological level. But otherwise they at least went along with it on the second go around the following month. Too late to "unpanic" the stock market sell-off by then though.
You guys and the entire democrapic party are chock full of excuses. You'd rather blame than take responsibility. That is your party line MO. That's what the American people finally realized and voted in opposition. Cry and whine all you want, it is all moot now.
[QUOTE=EihTooms;1999154]
Obama not having even the bare minimum 60 Democratic seats.[/QUOTE].
[QUOTE=Member#2041;1998956]Sorry Natty, .[/QUOTE]Waaaaa waaaa waaaaa more excuses from the crybabies. Get your mama to change your [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord132][CodeWord132][/url].
[QUOTE=DCups;1999256]Waaaaa waaaa waaaaa more excuses from the crybabies. Get your mama to change your [/QUOTE]You can join the substantive part of the discussion which people on both sides are engaged in, or you can continue to act like the worthless douchebag you are. We know what we're expecting.
[QUOTE=GoodEnough;1999017]Funny stuff. ].[/QUOTE]Meanwhile, check out the crime in the ex-president's hometown of Chicago. That's real funny, too. Who you going to blame for that, GE? Al Capone? Lawlessness and disrespect for people and property blossumed under obummer. Real funny.
[QUOTE=Member#2041;1999269]worthless.[/QUOTE]Sums it quite nicely, 2041. Cry some more. Eventually some other democrap will change your the-I-a-p-e-are for you.
[QUOTE=Member#2041;1999013] actual merits of Obama's Presidency, [/QUOTE]Worthless.
You got to excuse for this, too, democraps?
[QUOTE=NattyBumpo;1998996]Member #2041,he doubled the National Debt to 20 Trillion Dollars by borrowing more money than all other Presidents combined. If nothing is done to reduce this debt it will one day destroy us.
.[/QUOTE].
To quote Dick Cheney: "Ronald Reagan proved that deficits don't matter ".
Like a dog returns to eat its own vomit. Vile, mangy, flea-infested stupid dog.
[QUOTE=Member#2041;1999013]
I'll also go on record .[/QUOTE].
[QUOTE=NattyBumpo;1998996]And to get what little Obama got he doubled the National Debt to 20 Trillion Dollars by borrowing more money than all other Presidents combined. If nothing is done to reduce this debt it will one day destroy us. a[/QUOTE]A debt that can't be repaid, won't be repaid.
No need for you to lose any sleep over your being destroyed by budget deficit.
So long as USA can continue to beat back efforts to supplant its dollar as world reserve currency, the game will keep rolling along.
[QUOTE=Member#2041;1999284]To quote Dick Cheney: "Ronald Reagan proved that deficits don't matter ".[/QUOTE]Ronald Reagan TRIPLED our National Debt. Last I checked, he was still the Patron Saint of all things "Conservative Republican. " And, sure enough, the country has not been destroyed by that wildly out of control typical Republican spending spree some 30 years ago. Not totally anyay.
And he did so after inheriting from Jimmy Carter better economic conditions than any incoming Democratic president inherited from an outgoing Republican president ever; back-to-back quarterly GDP growth rates of +7. 5% and +8. 5%, a moderate and reasonable debt-to-GDP ratio, a steadily declining unemployment rate, a steadily declining inflation rate, taking the Oath of Office right after one of the best 4 year annual average private jobs creation records in USA History, our being stuck in not two, not even one stupid ground war quagmire.
Of course, that didn't prevent Reagan from getting his stupid Republican-style Supply-Side / Trickle-Down economic agenda going (fast-tracked into the system in year one by Congress out of sympathy for his taking a bullet from a nut with a gun out to impress actress Jodie Foster), whereupon we immediately reversed that declining unemployment rate into a skyrocketing one to a point where we had a 10%+ headline unemployment rate for a whopping 10 consecutive months during Reagan's second and third year in office (the BLS calculated the now popular "real" U6 rate then just like they do now, but, haha, nobody talked about it then. Must have hit somewhere around 25-30% during the Reagan years). We got under Reagan then record post-Great Republican Depression era business closures and job losses. Beginning in his second year in office we found ourselves in the worst economic downturn since that Great Republican Depression of the late 1920's / early 1930's.
Which, of course, was a notable standard quite handily surpassed by Reagan-wannabe George W. Bush right after his version of Reaganomics got cooked into the system. Trump's proposals for the economy look no different than what those guys proposed or what the Republicans proposed and passed in the mid/late 1920s in the lead up to the Great Republican Crash and Depression. Only "Yuger!" and "Greater!!" lol.
[QUOTE=Golfinho;1999334]A debt that can't be repaid, won't be repaid. <snip> So long as USA can continue to beat back efforts to supplant its dollar as world reserve currency, the game will keep rolling along.[/QUOTE]True, but how long do you predict the dollar can remain the world reserve currency. 10 years, 25 years more? The idea used to be unthinkable. Not any longer.
[QUOTE=NattyBumpo;1999419]True, but how long do you predict the dollar can remain the world reserve currency. 10 years, 25 years more? The idea used to be unthinkable. Not any longer.[/QUOTE]Well, for sure the Euro won't be replacing it, now that the Eurozone is coming apart. So what's left? Bitcoin? (That's a joke, in case someone wants to take it seriously).
[QUOTE=EihTooms;1999415]Ronald Reagan TRIPLED our National Debt. Last I checked, he was still the Patron Saint of all things "Conservative Republican. " And, sure enough, the country has not been destroyed by that wildly out of control typical Republican spending spree some 30 years ago. Not totally anyay.
And he did so after inheriting from Jimmy Carter better economic conditions than any incoming Democratic president inherited from an outgoing Republican president ever; back-to-back quarterly GDP growth rates of +7. 5% and +8. 5%, a moderate and reasonable debt-to-GDP ratio, a steadily declining unemployment rate, a steadily declining inflation rate, taking the Oath of Office right after one of the best 4 year annual average private jobs creation records in USA History, our being stuck in not two, not even one stupid ground war quagmire.
Of course, that didn't prevent Reagan from getting his stupid Republican-style Supply-Side / Trickle-Down economic agenda going (fast-tracked into the system in year one by Congress out of sympathy for his taking a bullet from a nut with a gun out to impress actress Jodie Foster), whereupon we immediately reversed that declining unemployment rate into a skyrocketing one to a point where we had a 10%+ headline unemployment rate for a whopping 10 consecutive months during Reagan's second and third year in office (the BLS calculated the now popular "real" U6 rate then just like they do now, but, haha, nobody talked about it then. Must have hit somewhere around 25-30% during the Reagan years). We got under Reagan then record post-Great Republican Depression era business closures and job losses. Beginning in his second year in office we found ourselves in the worst economic downturn since that Great Republican Depression of the late 1920's / early 1930's.
Which, of course, was a notable standard quite handily surpassed by Reagan-wannabe George W. Bush right after his version of Reaganomics got cooked into the system. Trump's proposals for the economy look no different than what those guys proposed or what the Republicans proposed and passed in the mid/late 1920s in the lead up to the Great Republican Crash and Depression. Only "Yuger!" and "Greater!!" lol.[/QUOTE]So much here to disagree with, so little time. I will concentrate on paragraph 2 and Jimmy Carter who I rate as one of the worst Presidents in the post World War II era. 1st, I think you are cherry picking some of the stats you cite to promote your argument. "back-to-back quarterly GDP growth rates of +7. 5% and +8. 5%". The volatile quarterly rates have no meaning. Look at the annual rates to understand the situation. I lived through this stuff. The Carter years were horrible. Here is the relevant information:
The prime rate outstripped the Federal funds rate, reaching 20% in March 1980. The "misery index," a Carter term which equals unemployment plus inflation hit 20 percent in 1980 as well, the first time since World War II. Stagflation and Jimmy Carter. The two go hand in hand. Then there is his bungling of foreign affairs: the Iranian Revolution, which we are still paying a huge penalty for now, and the US Hostage crisis which Carter completely mangled, oh yeah, I almost forgot the Russian invasion of Afganistan.
I consider Reagan, on the other hand, the greatest President of the post war era. I point to the end of stagflation, 20 plus years of economic growth after he tamed inflation with the 1982 recession (before you object you should read Paul Volker's thoughts on Reagan and what he did for the US Economy), WINNING THE COLD WAR and defeating the Soviet Union. The only other President that even comes close to this level of achevement is Franklin Roosevelt and as another BM pointed out, Roosevelt did not do so great with the economy. We have Hirohito to thank for resurecting the US economy.
But, you are right about one thing. Trump's plan to jump start the US economy is Reaganesqe or as the left likes to decry Supply Side. He plans to cut taxes across the board and get rid of Dodd Frank among other Obama era anti-growth / anti-business regulations. Yes, I expect the deficit will rise at first due to the tax cuts, the military buildup plus any fiscal spending Trump intends to implement, but after his tax cuts work their way through the economy and stimulate it properly, I predict we will see 3%, 4%, possibly even 5% real GDP growth. Of course, I could be wrong. But then so could you. So, we will have to just wait and see what happens.
In the meantime I will make you a friendly wager; if I am right about the GDP you buy me a ST session with any girl I want in Twister. If you are right, I will buy you a ST session with any girl you want in Twister. Do you accept? The bet: I predict 3% or higher real GDP within 18 months of Trump's Tax plan and the repeal of Dodd Frank signed into law.
One last thing, here are the facts comparing Reagan and Carter:
Year Inflation // Unemployment // GDP.
1976 5.8% /////// 7.7% /////// 4. 33%.
1977 6.5% ////// 7.1% /////// 4. 98%.
1978 7.6% ///// 6.1% ////// 6. 68%.
1979 11.3% //// 5.9% ////// 1. 30% (Second oil crisis).
1980 13.5% //// 7.2% ////// -0. 04%.
1981 10.3% //// 7.6% ////// 1. 29%.
1982 6.2% //// 9.7% ////// -1. 40% (Reagan Recession).
1983 3.2% ///// 9.6% ///// 7. 83%.
1984 4.3% ///// 7.5% ///// 5. 63%.
The problem with the Reagan presidency is that it was catastrophic for anyone who was not a white male.
And BTW, Nixon and Bush I did more to defeat the Soviet Union than Reagan actually did.
Reagan did conquer the existential threat of Grenada, though, and he did prove that running up huge deficits is not problematic for the economy. A legacy that Obama has built on.
BTW, Natty, here's the bet I would propose, although the only place I could pay it off or collect on it would be in Tijuana: Over the course of the Trump Presidency, he adds fewer jobs to the economy than Obama did during his Presidency. It's A LOT easier to achieve a momentary growth rate of 3% when you're starting off with an economy that's been steady state at around 2% growth (actually it's been oscillating between 1 and 3.5%) than it is when you're starting off with a falling knife economy that's contracting at over 5% annualized, which is what Obama inherited.
And getting to over 3% briefly is nothing special, Obama did it several times. It's SUSTAINING 3% for a year or longer, and I will certainly bet that Trump does not accomplish that, unless he has Stephen Bannon fabricate some bogus fake statistics.
[QUOTE=NattyBumpo;1999428]So much here to disagree with, so little time. I will concentrate on paragraph 2 and Jimmy Carter who I rate as one of the worst Presidents in the post World War II era. 1st, I think you are cherry picking some of the stats you cite to promote your argument. "back-to-back quarterly GDP growth rates of +7. 5% and +8. 5%". The volatile quarterly rates have no meaning. Look at the annual rates to understand the situation. I lived through this stuff. The Carter years were horrible. Here is the relevant information:
The prime rate outstripped the Federal funds rate, reaching 20% in March 1980. The "misery index," a Carter term which equals unemployment plus inflation hit 20 percent in 1980 as well, the first time since World War II. Stagflation and Jimmy Carter. The two go hand in hand. Then there is his bungling of foreign affairs: the Iranian Revolution, which we are still paying a huge penalty for now, and the US Hostage crisis which Carter completely mangled, oh yeah, I almost forgot the Russian invasion of Afganistan.
I consider Reagan, on the other hand, the greatest President of the post war era. I point to the end of stagflation, 20 plus years of economic growth after he tamed inflation with the 1982 recession (before you object you should read Paul Volker's thoughts on Reagan and what he did for the US Economy), WINNING THE COLD WAR and defeating the Soviet Union. The only other President that even comes close to this level of achevement is Franklin Roosevelt and as another BM pointed out, Roosevelt did not do so great with the economy. We have Hirohito to thank for resurecting the US economy.
But, you are right about one thing. Trump's plan to jump start the US economy is Reaganesqe or as the left likes to decry Supply Side. He plans to cut taxes across the board and get rid of Dodd Frank among other Obama era anti-growth / anti-business regulations. Yes, I expect the deficit will rise at first due to the tax cuts, the military buildup plus any fiscal spending Trump intends to implement, but after his tax cuts work their way through the economy and stimulate it properly, I predict we will see 3%, 4%, possibly even 5% real GDP growth. Of course, I could be wrong. But then so could you. So, we will have to just wait and see what happens.
In the meantime I will make you a friendly wager; if I am right about the GDP you buy me a ST session with any girl I want in Twister. If you are right, I will buy you a ST session with any girl you want in Twister. Do you accept? The bet: I predict 3% or higher real GDP within 18 months of Trump's Tax plan and the repeal of Dodd Frank signed into law.
One last thing, here are the facts comparing Reagan and Carter:
Year Inflation // Unemployment // GDP.
1976 5.8% /////// 7.7% /////// 4. 33%.
1977 6.5% ////// 7.1% /////// 4. 98%.
1978 7.6% ///// 6.1% ////// 6. 68%.
1979 11.3% //// 5.9% ////// 1. 30% (Second oil crisis).
1980 13.5% //// 7.2% ////// -0. 04%.
1981 10.3% //// 7.6% ////// 1. 29%.
1982 6.2% //// 9.7% ////// -1. 40% (Reagan Recession).
1983 3.2% ///// 9.6% ///// 7. 83%.
1984 4.3% ///// 7.5% ///// 5. 63%.[/QUOTE]First of all, on the bet; it would all depend how GDP growth is accomplished. If the slightly improved average annual GDP growth rates achieved under Reagan vs Carter come about for Trump as they did for Reagan, by tripling the National Debt and skyrocketing the debt-to-GDP ratio, then Trump "accomplishing" the same feat is hardly worth celebrating with a wager win, isn't it?
I fail to see the startling improvement over anything in that recap of certain data for Reagan vs Carter. You get hyper-inflation as seen in the Carter years because wage inflation feeds into it. And you get wage inflation because there are too many new private sector jobs being created than there are applicants to fill them. Easy to bring that kind of "Morning in America!" result to an end; preside over an economy whose private sector jobs creation average is dwarfed by that of Jimmy Carter. You're showing Carter's average annual unemployment rate lower than Reagans. This is supposed to convince me Reagan's policies worked better than Carter's?
Sorry, but "I lived through this stuff. The Carter years were horrible", is not enough data to reverse the real data showing Carter's annual average private sector jobs gains dwarfing that of Reagan and every other Republican president before and since, just to name one way more important metric than how you felt about it. I certainly agree that Carter was a stiff while Reagan was affable and ingratiating, as long as you weren't on the wrong end of his massive tax increases on the lower income margins to pay for the disproportionate and budget-busting tax cuts for the wealthy.
[QUOTE=NattyBumpo;1999428]...as another BM pointed out, Roosevelt did not do so great with the economy. We have Hirohito to thank for resurecting the US economy. [/QUOTE]I try never to miss an opportunity to set this oft-repeated but bogus claim straight. Look at the charts for the dramatic decline in the unemployment rate, GDP growth surging, stock market recovering, etc. from mid-1933 forward and you will see all were doing spectacularly well YEARS before we were attacked on Pearl Harbor or got involved in WWII. There was a mild 18 month set back in the improvement on some important metrics around 1937 only because FDR let up on the New Deal stimulus in order to address the debt / deficit. But then it resumed right back to positive trend in the years before December 7th, 1941.
In fact, the USA Economy suffered during our involvement in WWII. There is no data showing improvement on the usual economic measures during WWII or in the aftermath of WWII. Conservatives opposed to the Democratic New Deal type approach to recovering the economy from typical Republican major economic downturns always claim FDR's New Deal was a failure and that wars are good for the economy. But it isn't true. If that were true, then our economy should have been roaring while we were in the midst of TWO wars during the Bush2 years and the early Obama years. But it wasn't roaring. Not by a long shot.
[QUOTE=NattyBumpo;1999428]The prime rate outstripped the Federal funds rate, reaching 20% in March 1980. The "misery index," a Carter term which equals unemployment plus inflation hit 20 percent in 1980 as well, the first time since World War II. Stagflation and Jimmy Carter. The two go hand in hand. Then there is his bungling of foreign affairs: the Iranian Revolution, which we are still paying a huge penalty for now, and the US Hostage crisis which Carter completely mangled, oh yeah, I almost forgot the Russian invasion of Afganistan.
[/QUOTE]Raising Fed Funds / prime rates is how you tame hyper-inflation. You make the cost of borrowing money more expensive. You do that to slow down an otherwise overheated economy. That is why Carter appointed Paul Volker to be his Fed Chairman. Because Volker had a plan to tame hyper-inflation by raising the Fed Funds rate while not doing too much damage to jobs creation. Carter appointed him to do that in late 1979, knowing rising Fed Funds rates during 1980 would likely do great harm to him politically at election time. Reagan had nothing to do with bringing down hyper-inflation. Carter made the decision to appoint Volker to do it, shouldered all the heavy lifting for it, assumed all the political risk to do it.
As a side note on that subject, since you lived through those Carter and Reagan years, you must then remember that virtually anyone and everyone could deduct those high interest rates for everything from auto purchases to consumer debt re credit cards during the Carter years, just as you could and largely still can with mortgage loan interest rates. So when they had to be raised high in order to tame the effects of wage inflation in '79 and '80, most Americans, not just corporate executives with clever accountants, could reduce the bite of it come income tax time. But guess who put an end to that ability for regular rank and file American workers to take a tax deduction on ordinary consumer debt? You guessed right if you said Ronald Reagan.
The Iranian Revolution was triggered by Republican President Dwight Eisenhower's CIA overthrow of a duly democratically-elected leader of Iran in 1954 and installing the brutal Shah Pahlavi regime instead in order to keep oil prices to our liking. The Revolution was about Islamic Ayatollahs then overthrowing that brutal dictatorship, a slow and bloody 25 year march that happened to end in 1979 when Carter was president. Meanwhile, Carter got all of the USA Hostages out of Iran in exchange for nothing more than what already belonged to Iran before Reagan had a chance to screw that up more than he tried to screw it up in the days before the election. Quite a bit more positive outcome than when Reagan buckled under the slightest political risk pressure by illegally trading whatever arms Iran wanted for 7 hostages that were taken on his watch.
That Reagan event was one of a few under his watch when Iran and others in the Middle East learned you can actually come out ahead, not just break even, by causing mischief for the USA, depending on the spinal density of the commander in chief at the time.
[QUOTE=Member#2041;1999447]
BTW, Natty, here's the bet I would propose, although the only place I could pay it off or collect on it would be in Tijuana: Over the course of the Trump Presidency, he adds fewer jobs to the economy than Obama did during his Presidency. It's A LOT easier to achieve a momentary growth rate of 3% when you're starting off with an economy that's been steady state at around 2% growth (actually it's been oscillating between 1 and 3.5%) than it is when you're starting off with a falling knife economy that's contracting at over 5% annualized, which is what Obama inherited.
And getting to over 3% briefly is nothing special, Obama did it several times. It's SUSTAINING 3% for a year or longer, and I will certainly bet that Trump does not accomplish that, unless he has Stephen Bannon fabricate some bogus fake statistics.[/QUOTE]Quite so. The spread between where all of the classic economic metrics were tanking in January 2009 and where they were in January 2017 on the positive side is astonishing! Annualized quarterly GDP had contracted by more than -8%! The final number for 2017 will likely be near +2%, the rate it has been hovering around for the past couple years. While most of the rest of the world has not done as well and is dragging our economy down along the way. That's a whopping 10 percentage point improvement. Seriously, it has not been done before (except by FDR) and will not be duplicated much less bested by any Republican president going forward unless he / she dumps everything Republican economic philosophy stands for and adopts everything Democratic economic philosophy stands for. And it sure as hell won't be accomplished by Donald Trump.
Of course, the special made-up conservative Republican "law" over the past 8 years is we're never supposed to compare what was happening when Obama took office to what is happening now and has been happening for years under his economic stewardship. Whenever you mention what was happening when Obama took office, hey that's "blaming Bush", don'tcha' know. LOL. No, it is the way anything meaningful is measured; how does it compare today with what was happening before.
[QUOTE=EihTooms;1999530]Quite so. The spread between where all of the classic economic metrics were tanking in January 2009 and where they were in January 2017 on the positive side is astonishing! Annualized quarterly GDP had contracted by more than -8%! The final number for 2017 will likely be near +2%, the rate it has been hovering around for the past couple years. While most of the rest of the world has not done as well and is dragging our economy down along the way. That's a whopping 10 percentage point improvement. Seriously, it has not been done before (except by FDR) and will not be duplicated much less bested by any Republican president going forward unless he / she dumps everything Republican economic philosophy stands for and adopts everything Democratic economic philosophy stands for. And it sure as hell won't be accomplished by Donald Trump.
Of course, the special made-up conservative Republican "law" over the past 8 years is we're never supposed to compare what was happening when Obama took office to what is happening now and has been happening for years under his economic stewardship. Whenever you mention what was happening when Obama took office, hey that's "blaming Bush", don'tcha' know. LOL. No, it is the way anything meaningful is measured; how does it compare today with what was happening before.[/QUOTE]While to rational folks, these arguments are compelling, in the end you're using "facts" and "science" to convince people who believe in neither. Facts are no longer undeniable in an era of "alternative facts," characterized by the mystical "Creationism" being taught as an "alternative" to the scientific fact of evolution. It's an unwinnable battle, which is why I suggest that those of us who still believe in empiricism start our own country.
GE.
What a great discussion going on here! Yes, GE, start your own country. You can be Lord of the Fart Factory.
[QUOTE=GoodEnough;1999549] It's an unwinnable battle, which is why I suggest that those of us who still believe in empiricism start our own country.
GE.[/QUOTE].
Yes, play the race card, 2041. It is the only one in your hand.
[QUOTE=Member#2041;1999447]The problem with the Reagan presidency is that it was catastrophic for anyone who was not a white male.
[/QUOTE].
Top 10 obummer blunders.
10. I can't find my birth certificate! Well it might be in Indonesia but since daddy split before I was born I don't really know.
9. My brother lives in a shack somewhere in Africa. I'the like to send him some USA Taxpayer money but he doesn't have an address.
8. The constitution? Well let me rewrite it with these here executive orders.
7. Crime? What crime? I'll just ignore it and hope it goes away. Good to out of Chicago, tho.
6. Let's take Air Force One to a ballgame in Cuba! That's got to be better than dealing with world crises! Oh! And while I'm there I can let more of my terrorist buddies out of Guantanamo so they can plan their next attack! Brilliant!
5. Fuck the economy! We can always borrow more trillions from China!
4. I know, let's build a healthcare system that is SO COMPLEX that NO ONE understands it! As long it has my name on it and it benefits member number 2041 (my loyal, blithering sychophant) that's all that matters!
3. Fuck the military! Let me downsize this to the bone so I can give away more free phones, free food, free housing, free transportation, free healthcare, etc. To all the freeloaders who voted for me!
2. I hate the Clintons but if Hillary gets elected maybe I can milk even more bucks out of these stupid democrats!
1. Let's see. What can I do as a grand finale to my presidency? I know! I'll send $220 million to our enemies in Syria! I'll do it AN HOUR before inauguration because everyone will be so busy that NO ONE will notice! I'the like to send more but $220 M should be Good Enough.
EPILOGUE.
Well, I tried to destroy America, I really did my best to try to destroy America, but those Republicans, there's just too many of them! Let me see if I can find my brother in Africa and slip him a few bucks.
EXIT. FADE OUT. CLOSE CURTAIN. NO APPLAUSE.
The legacy of obummer: WORST president in the history of USA.
[QUOTE=NattyBumpo;1999428]So much here to disagree with, so little time.[/QUOTE]Hi Natty, I appreciate your efforts here but the democraps will always find an excuse for everything. It is always some Republican's fault no matter what. Their brains are hard wired to default to these fantasy fart factoids. If none exists just make it up and dazzle them with enormous amounts of every kind of animal shit you can imagine.
You are a fool for believing that, GE. In a world of Kardashians be an Ivanka.
[QUOTE=GoodEnough;1998973]
There's another admittedly intangible feature called grace and dignity that the Obamas bought to the White House; f
GE.[/QUOTE].
[QUOTE=DCups;1999655]Hi Natty, I appreciate your efforts here but the democraps will always find an excuse for everything. It is always some Republican's fault no matter what. Their brains are hard wired to default to these fantasy fart factoids. If none exists just make it up and dazzle them with enormous amounts of every kind of animal shit you can imagine.[/QUOTE]You sound silly! The best you can come up with is his dad leaving and his brother in Africa to make your argument as the worst US President? You conveniently give a pass to Bush who couldn't get Bin Ladin, who had the stock market at 7 k (its now at 20 k), who made up a war and later created ISIS, who had the unemployment at around 9%, and had shoes thrown at him in the Middle East. Sure Obama had faults but you only had to look at who was before him and the mess he had to clean up to at least give him credit for guiding us out of the greatest potential depression since WW2. Not to mention Congress vowing to make him fail before he got started and stopping his every move.
Its no problem though because the proof is in the pudding. In a couple years when the stock market is at 12 K and we are sending our troops of to useless wars and its war on American streets I will have this post of yours to make you out as someone who is very misinformed. Not to mention the burden 20 million uninsured people will have on our economy along with paying for a 20 billion dollar wall that will be an eyesore and a monument to people of how foolish and gullible some Americans truly are.
It's already affecting us personally as the travel industry is now taking a major hit with the immigration rule Trump tried to impose. People are becoming afraid to travel and look for these friendly countries that let us visit and bang their beautiful women to not be as accommodating to Americans in the future. Maybe when these foreign women and guys hate our guts and want to hurt us will you then realize that it wasn't so bad under Obama.
[QUOTE=MrGogo;1999661]Sure Obama had faults ... In a couple years when the stock market is at 12 K ... 20 million uninsured people ....it wasn't so bad under Obama.[/QUOTE]Oh great! Another bleeding heart liberal predicting doom and gloom has joined the forum!
Amusing when someone accuses another person who has nearly double the number of posts that they do of being an interloper. But not surprising.
[QUOTE=EihTooms;1999496]Raising Fed Funds / prime rates is how you tame hyper-inflation. You make the cost of borrowing money more expensive. You do that to slow down an otherwise overheated economy. That is why Carter appointed Paul Volker to be his Fed Chairman. Because Volker had a plan to tame hyper-inflation by raising the Fed Funds rate while not doing too much damage to jobs creation. Carter appointed him to do that in late 1979, knowing rising Fed Funds rates during 1980 would likely do great harm to him politically at election time. Reagan had nothing to do with bringing down hyper-inflation. Carter made the decision to appoint Volker to do it, shouldered all the heavy lifting for it, assumed all the political risk to do it.
As a side note on that subject, since you lived through those Carter and Reagan years, you must then remember that virtually anyone and everyone could deduct those high interest rates for everything from auto purchases to consumer debt re credit cards during the Carter years, just as you could and largely still can with mortgage loan interest rates. So when they had to be raised high in order to tame the effects of wage inflation in '79 and '80, most Americans, not just corporate executives with clever accountants, could reduce the bite of it come income tax time. But guess who put an end to that ability for regular rank and file American workers to take a tax deduction on ordinary consumer debt? You guessed right if you said Ronald Reagan.
The Iranian Revolution was triggered by Republican President Dwight Eisenhower's CIA overthrow of a duly democratically-elected leader of Iran in 1954 and installing the brutal Shah Pahlavi regime instead in order to keep oil prices to our liking. The Revolution was about Islamic Ayatollahs then overthrowing that brutal dictatorship, a slow and bloody 25 year march that happened to end in 1979 when Carter was president. Meanwhile, Carter got all of the USA Hostages out of Iran in exchange for nothing more than what already belonged to Iran before Reagan had a chance to screw that up more than he tried to screw it up in the days before the election. Quite a bit more positive outcome than when Reagan buckled under the slightest political risk pressure by illegally trading whatever arms Iran wanted for 7 hostages that were taken on his watch.
That Reagan event was one of a few under his watch when Iran and others in the Middle East learned you can actually come out ahead, not just break even, by causing mischief for the USA, depending on the spinal density of the commander in chief at the time.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Member#2041;1999447]The problem with the Reagan presidency is that it was catastrophic for anyone who was not a white male.
And BTW, Nixon and Bush I did more to defeat the Soviet Union than Reagan actually did.
Reagan did conquer the existential threat of Grenada, though, and he did prove that running up huge deficits is not problematic for the economy. A legacy that Obama has built on.
BTW, Natty, here's the bet I would propose, although the only place I could pay it off or collect on it would be in Tijuana: Over the course of the Trump Presidency, he adds fewer jobs to the economy than Obama did during his Presidency. It's A LOT easier to achieve a momentary growth rate of 3% when you're starting off with an economy that's been steady state at around 2% growth (actually it's been oscillating between 1 and 3.5%) than it is when you're starting off with a falling knife economy that's contracting at over 5% annualized, which is what Obama inherited.
And getting to over 3% briefly is nothing special, Obama did it several times. It's SUSTAINING 3% for a year or longer, and I will certainly bet that Trump does not accomplish that, unless he has Stephen Bannon fabricate some bogus fake statistics.[/QUOTE]EihTooms, I am familiar with your alternative view of American history. Believe it or not I do have a couple left leaning friends. It is not always easy to stay above the fray with them. Ha Ha. One of my friends turned me on to Oliver Stone's 10 part documentary entitled "The Untold History of the United States. " I watched the whole thing twice. It was amazing to me how Stone could twist everything that has happened in America since 1944. It was also very instructive to get a clear understanding of how the left views American history. I have since turned on a couple of my laissez faire conservative friends to this enlightening documentary. I must reemphasize so there is no mistaking my view; I find the documentary extraordinary and enlightening, not because I agree with anything in it, but because it shows me how the left views recent American history. It is simply amazing.
Anyway, to my point, we could go back and forth a million times and you will not convince me of the truth in your philosophy and I will never convince you of the truth in mine. In addition, right now I have better, more important things on my mind, specifically I am in the middle of settling my business and personal affairs and getting ready to depart in less than a week for my next 10.5 week trip to La La Asian Pussyland. So, you guys won't hear too much from me in the next couple of months. I will try to drop an occasional short post covering what I am up to in the appropriate forums. On my last trip in 2016, I averaged 1.25 girls per day over 9. 5 weeks and believe me, I was running on empty as I wound things up the last 10 days in BKK. But I couldn't or wouldn't stop and say no to my girls. I had Mini, who for all intents and purposes is my BKK mistress, my 2 favorite CH girls, a naughty Mango girl, plus two NEW girls I had just met. The burning question I have for this next trip is will I slow down and proceed at a more normal, sustainable pace? The answer is HELL NO! So, guys, if you never hear from me again, I want you to know one thing, I died in bed with one or two girls by my side and a smile on my face. And I have no regrets about what I have done the last 20 years. 555. It has been a gas. I want my tombstone to read, "he loved young Asian girls."
Now back to the issue at hand; I offered you a gentleman's wager. I will now refine the bet: I predict that starting the 1st full quarter beginning 18 months after Trump's tax cut, whatever it may eventually turn out to be, is enacted into law AND simultaneously 18 months after Dodd Frank is repealed or significantly rolled back; the real GDP of the US will average 3% or higher for the next full year I. E. 4 consecutive quarters going forward. That means for example, one quarter may show a 2. 5% growth rate and the next three quarters might have a 3. 25% GDP growth rate thus the average would be 3. 06% and I would win the wager. I further refine the proposed amount of the wager to be a ST session with any GO GO girl in BKK or any bar girl on Burgos of the winner's choice. The wager does not include drinks or barfine, so it's approximately a $100 Gentlemen's wager.
The reason I propose this bet is twofold. 1st I want to make things a little interesting, and 2nd I want to illustrate to everybody here that none of us really know what the next 4 years or next 8 years will be like despite the rather strong opinions we all have. I am talking to you too GE! So, guys lets dial down the rhetoric and insults. What do you say?
Now who wants to take me up on my wager? EihTooms?, GE?, Member #2041? - I am sorry, but I can't extend the bet to include Tijuana. I spent a couple months in Mexico a long time ago and I did not like the country or the girls. But hey, this is the Philippine Forum. You really should try to visit the PI. The girls here are great. It is definitely worth the time and money involved to get here.
Adios Muchachos!
[QUOTE=Member#2041;1999696]Amusing when someone accuses another person who has nearly double the number of posts that they do of being an interloper. But not surprising.[/QUOTE]As if the number of posts in ISG means anything!
Natty, I would gladly take you up on that bet, but I simply don't get value anymore from Asia trips, because of a combination of factors, the first being that I have family obligations that preclude me being away for more than a week or two at a time, and 2nd, at my age, I can't get enough pops in within a 10-12 day window to justify the effort and the cost. Secondly, as I have been spending much more time in Mexico recently and have some command of the language and culture, I have figured out how to get MUCH more mileage out of my encounters than most Mexico visitors do. Nowadays, I am getting true GFE from several regular chicas in Tijuana that is on a par with what I was getting in Asia. And I can get there by driving for a half hour, and walking another 15 minutes to the zona roja. And you would be amazed how much more sympatico a session with a Mexican chica can be when you tell her in her native tongue what an idiot Donald Trump is, and how embarrassed we are about his hate-filled ascendancy to the Presidency. So, I simply no longer get a sufficient return on my investment by traveling to Asia as I used to. I can also get ~$100 round trip flights within Mexico that are 2 hours each way, to beach venues that are as nice as the ones in Asia. Frankly, the only useful thing Trump has done for me is kill the value of the Peso with his xenophobic "build a wall to keep them out" talk. That being said, I certainly understand and have experienced the allure of fine young Asianas, and I wish I still had the time and situation in life where I could avail myself of it again. I don't begrudge you that at all.
In any case, I think you haven't a snowball's chance in hell of winning that bet, and I wish we could find a common geographic venue where I could collect on it.
[QUOTE=NattyBumpo;1999697]ready to depart in less than a week for my next 10.5 week trip to La La Asian Pussyland. So, you guys won't hear too much from me in the next couple of months. .[/QUOTE]Enjoy your trip, buddy. I have to wait until October for PI but two trips planned to DR and one to Tijuana before then. I'll try to respond to the scads of hatemail I'll be receiving in this thread. So much fun to use the democraps' words against them! For the record, I tried to scale to scale it down if one reads back a few pages, but ge, numbnuts 2041, smoothy et al kept vomiting so I feel obligated to make them eat their own vomit.
[QUOTE=Member#2041;1999708] a session with a Mexican chica [/QUOTE]Oh ya, that's a credible source for foreign politics, a prostituta in Mexico! Amazing! Thanks for the good laugh, 2041!
Who said anything about using a Mexican chica as a source for my political views? For a PhD, you sure have reading comprehension skills that crapped out at the middle-school level. What I said was, while I am telling those Mexican chicas how much I despise Trump, I am getting much better pussy and better connected and engaged GFE sessions as a result. Even a dullard such as you should be able to grasp that concept, D Cups.
[QUOTE=Member#2041;1999723]Who said anything about using a Mexican chica as a source for my political views? .[/QUOTE]So now you deny having the same political views as the chica? What a great dodge, 2041! It's sad that you have to Trump bash to get a great session. But I suppose you have to do something to overcome your hideous exterior.
[QUOTE=DCups;1999730]So now you deny having the same political views as the chica? What a great dodge, 2041! It's sad that you have to Trump bash to get a great session. But I suppose you have to do something to overcome your hideous exterior.[/QUOTE]Again, your reading comprehension shows you to be an idiot. I said that the chica was not the SOURCE of my views. I never said that she did not agree with my views. Do try to keep up. Oh, and so that the rest of us can avoid it, could you state what institute of higher learning gave someone with such limited reading comprehension skills a PhD?
And frankly if you don't grasp the fact that establishing an emotional and intellectual connection with a hooker is a well proven method toward getting great sessions rather than just good ones, you're even dumber on more levels than I had previously thought. Which is saying something.
[QUOTE=Member#2041;1999736]the chica was not the SOURCE of my views. .[/QUOTE]Oh, thanks for clarifying, 2041. Keep up with your meds, ok? We don't want to have to haul your 300 pound lard ass carcass back to the states.
[QUOTE=DCups;1999744]Oh, thanks for clarifying, 2041. Keep up with your meds, ok? We don't want to have to haul your 300 pound lard ass carcass back to the states.[/QUOTE]Try 180. I actually used to weigh 295. And I don't need Diabetes meds anymore. I got myself in shape starting 5 years ago. The Affordable Care Act did help to save my life, along with my own efforts. I either bicycle 30 miles a day, or swim 2 miles a day. EVERY DAY. I'm going to do a triathlon this year, and I'll be competitive in the 55 and over group. But thanks for the good thoughts. Gotta go, it's time for my ride.
That's great (seriously). Congratulations. See, I can play nice when others do. Obviously from your example, Obamacare did help some people.
[QUOTE=Member#2041;1999746]Try 180. I actually used to weigh 295. And I don't need Diabetes meds anymore. I got myself in shape starting 5 years ago. The Affordable Care Act did help to save my life, along with my own efforts. I either bicycle 30 miles a day, or swim 2 miles a day. EVERY DAY. I'm going to do a triathlon this year, and I'll be competitive in the 55 and over group. But thanks for the good thoughts. Gotta go, it's time for my ride.[/QUOTE].
[QUOTE=Member#2041;1999708]
In any case, I think you haven't a snowball's chance in hell of winning that bet, and I wish we could find a common geographic venue where I could collect on it.[/QUOTE]How about Macau or Zurich? LOL.
"Thursday, February 16, 2017.
The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Thursday shows that 55% of Likely USA Voters approve of President Trump's job performance. Forty-five percent (45%) disapprove. The latest figures include 38% who Strongly Approve of the way Trump is performing and 36% who Strongly Disapprove. This gives him a Presidential Approval Index rating of +2. ".
I am not gloating, truly, just pointing out the outrageous refusal of the Left in America to accept the outcome of the election as a political strategy is obviously not working. Trump is currently doing better in the Rasmussen daily Tracking Poll than Obama did for most of the last 6 years of his presidency. Point: Trump is getting more popular not less. My suggestion to the anti Trumpers is relax, take a load off, have a cognac, accept for the moment what you can not change, and wait for something real to happen further down the pike that actually justifies some degree of anger and outrage before you become angry and outraged. Or not. Its up to you. It's just that nobody likes a sore loser.
[QUOTE=NattyBumpo;1999822]"Thursday, February 16, 2017.
The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Thursday shows that 55% of Likely USA Voters approve of President Trump's job performance. Forty-five percent (45%) disapprove. The latest figures include 38% who Strongly Approve of the way Trump is performing and 36% who Strongly Disapprove. This gives him a Presidential Approval Index rating of +2. ".
I am not gloating, truly, just pointing out the outrageous refusal of the Left in America to accept the outcome of the election as a political strategy is obviously not working. Trump is currently doing better in the Rasmussen daily Tracking Poll than Obama did for most of the last 6 years of his presidency. Point: Trump is getting more popular not less. My suggestion to the anti Trumpers is relax, take a load off, have a cognac, accept for the moment what you can not change, and wait for something real to happen further down the pike that actually justifies some degree of anger and outrage before you become angry and outraged. Or not. Its up to you. It's just that nobody likes a sore loser.[/QUOTE]Rassmussen is the single most right-wing biased pollster out there. They had Mitt Romney beating Obama the day before the 2012 election. Their methodology is flawed because they only sample land lines, and miss all people who only use cell phones. Which means they severely under sample the young, latino, and black voters. Frankly, given their track record, and their broken obsolete methodology, it's amazing that they're still in business.
[QUOTE=NattyBumpo;1999797]How about Macau or Zurich? LOL.[/QUOTE]From San Diego, Macau is as far as anywhere else in Asia. And Zurich is hardly any better, not to mention not being a great location for inexpensive mongering.
Now that we have had adequate debates and some smacking and shaming of presidents and their followers, can we move on with some brilliant ideas and resolutions to the following issues?
I promise I will forward the best solutions to the Press and congress once we reach agreement here.
Items not necessary in any order of preference or priority.
1. Illegal immigration. Prevention and present ones in USA now.
2. Annual Federal budget deficit.
3. 20 trillion dollars in debt.
3. Replacing Obamacare and with what?
4. Vetting refugees.
I will stop here for now.
Answers please. No need moronic replies.
P.S. Acknowledging someone's input does not mean approval of it. Let's be civilized.
[QUOTE=Member#2041;1999873]From San Diego, Macau is as far as anywhere else in Asia. And Zurich is hardly any better, not to mention not being a great location for inexpensive mongering.[/QUOTE]Then it looks like you won't be able to win your bet with me. Ha Ha. I don't visit Central and South America anymore. I used to travel around there a lot in my early days, but I find the general atmosphere much more hospitable in SE Asia. The last time I went to Costa Rica was in '04. It really depressed me because so much has changed and not for the better since the 70's and early 80's when I loved the country. I like the Andean countries for their beauty and do not rule out another road trip someday. I have fond memories of Chile and Argentina as well, but again it is not very likely I will ever go back. I gather you did not get my attempt at humor when I suggested Macau or Zurich. You could have won twice as much money if you had accepted that bet. I like Macau a lot for its Saunas and Chinese girls. I occasionally fly into Zurich on my way to LOS, but I have never stopped off at a brothel there. From where I live, flying the European route is the shortest duration flight to Asia. I was thinking that on your money it might be fun to visit Globe.
[QUOTE=Member#2041;1999867]Rassmussen is the single most right-wing biased pollster out there. They had Mitt Romney beating Obama the day before the 2012 election. Their methodology is flawed because they only sample land lines, and miss all people who only use cell phones. Which means they severely under sample the young, latino, and black voters. Frankly, given their track record, and their broken obsolete methodology, it's amazing that they're still in business.[/QUOTE] You are correct that Rasmussen got 2012 wrong. So did I! LOL. I lost a little money betting on Romney. I really thought he would win, but he coasted on his lead the last 2 weeks of the campaign and he did not go in for the kill during the last debate on foreign policy and the Benghazi fuck up and cover up. Maybe he was looking at the Rasmussen poll. LOL. Then Sandy played right into Obama's lucky hand. You will probably disagree with this assessment too, but IMHO, if it had not been for Sandy and the photo ops of Obama acting all concerned and presidential with Christie just days before the election; Obama would have lost.
Regarding the 2016 final election polls, most pollsters got it wrong except IBD and LA Times. Rasmussen's poll was more accurate than most, however. You are certainly entitled not to believe Trump has gained in popularity since the election. No skin off my nose. I just made the point that the Democratic Party's decision to fight Trump on EVERYTHING big and small is not paying off. But like most disagreements on this thread, we shall see what we shall see.
Here is a link to the Real Clear Politics wrap up of final poll results for the 2016 election. Only IBD and LA Times predicted the correct winner, but they both goofed on the raw vote count. Rasmussen actually did pretty good with their final poll, although they got the winner wrong / they were very accurate on the raw vote count.
[URL]http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/president/[/URL]
[QUOTE=NattyBumpo;1999419]True, but how long do you predict the dollar can remain the world reserve currency. 10 years, 25 years more? The idea used to be unthinkable. Not any longer.[/QUOTE]Well nobody (here at least) wants the dollar to go bad, then we'd be trapped in the USA for the duration. To remain reserve currency, simply lose remaining compunctions (if there are any left) about killing foreigners, and keep finding suckers to serve in USA's armed forces.
[QUOTE=NattyBumpo;1999697]EihTooms, I am familiar with your alternative view of American history. Believe it or not I do have a couple left leaning friends. It is not always easy to stay above the fray with them. Ha Ha.[/QUOTE]And then follows zero challenge to my pointing out when and why Carter's Fed Chair appointee, Paul Volker, raised Fed Funds rates (the hyper-inflation was being driven by wage inflation; far more private sector jobs being created than there were applicants to take them. Of any economic problem to have and solve, the one you want is hyper-inflation due to wage inflation), when and why the Iranian Revolution occurred (nothing to do with Jimmy Carter), ordinary folks being able to greatly reduce the pain of those Carter year interest rates through tax deductions (taken away as an option by Reagan), or any of the other specific points I made.
Just ad hominem retorts like, "I am familiar with your alternative view of American history" and fact-free touchy-feely assessments like, "I lived through this stuff. The Carter years were horrible. Here is the relevant information: whereupon you inexplicably applied 1976's 7. 7% unemployment rate to Jimmy Carter instead of the Republican president who was in office throughout the entire year of 1976 (and for almost a full month after)..?
LOL. Ok, Natty. No, I think I will graciously decline getting involved in your strained foundation of a bet. But, by all means, keep on watching those Trump press conferences and feeling the Greatness coming back to America by the minute. LOL.
[QUOTE=EihTooms;1999947]And then follows zero challenge to my pointing out when and why Carter's Fed Chair appointee, Paul Volker, raised Fed Funds rates (the hyper-inflation was being driven by wage inflation; far more private sector jobs being created than there were applicants to take them. Of any economic problem to have and solve, the one you want is hyper-inflation due to wage inflation), when and why the Iranian Revolution occurred (nothing to do with Jimmy Carter), ordinary folks being able to greatly reduce the pain of those Carter year interest rates through tax deductions (taken away as an option by Reagan), or any of the other specific points I made. [/QUOTE]Wrong again! So let me enlighten you:
Volcker and the Reagan Legacy. by Brian Domitrovic, contributing editor Forbes Magazine.
"quoting the original Reagan biographer, Lou Cannon: "Reagan's greatest domestic accomplishment breaking the back of inflation that terrified the nation in the late 1970's was a product not of 'supply side' economics ballyhooed by conservatives, but of the drastic tightening of interest rates by Federal Reserve Chairman Paul Volcker. ".
Lots of things about this view don't make sense. Above all, inflation became a staggering problem only around the time that Carter picked Volcker to chair the Fed in August 1979. Inflation had been running at 7% per year since it had first picked up in 1973, and had crossed 10% once, in 1974. But in 1979,1980, and 1981 it was double-digits all three years. What gives?
Presidents usually get one opportunity to appoint a Fed chair, and Carter got his in 1978 when Arthur Burns retired. Carter named corporate executive G. William Miller to the post. As inflation persisted, Carter blamed the American people. They set the heat too high at home, labor unions wanted raises that necessitated price increases, and drivers had to have their boats and muscle cars.
All this came to a head in Carter's incredible "malaise speech" of July 1979, in which the president laid culpability for inflation squarely at the feet of American consumerism and demanded better. In a weird mood in the moments after giving the speech, Carter asked his Cabinet to resign. Carter accepted five resignations, including that of the treasury secretary. With a good part of the government now rudderless, Carter needed to fill positions fast. Miller was cashiered from the Fed and put at the helm of Treasury.
This bizarre sequence gave Carter a second opportunity to appoint a Fed chair, and in came Volcker from the New York bank. Over the remaining seventeen months of Carter's term, inflation worsened as never before, coming in at 14% in 1980; early in that year it made a bid for 20%. As Volcker led the Fed as the Carter administration waned, inflation averaged a percentage point a month.
Volcker threw everything at the wall in a vain attempt to beat down inflation in those seventeen months. Out of the gate in September 1979, Volcker raised interest rates. This had no effect. In October, he strove to limit the money supply by such measures as raising reserve requirements at banks. No results. In 1980, he conceded to credit controls whereby bank lending was curtailed. The economy went into recession. Volcker hammered away at all his devices, but as 1980 came to a close and Reagan prepared to take office, inflation was running above 10%, and the prime rate of interest somehow stood at 22%.
When Reagan became president in 1981, Volcker kept plugging away at all his tightening maneuvers. Reagan was content to let him go, even as it became apparent that Volcker might get too tight. For Reagan was introducing a transformational policy reform on the fiscal side: marginal tax cuts.
Beginning in October 1981, and coming about every six months after that for the next two years, each rate of the income tax got cut. In October, rates went down by 1%, in January another 9%, in July another 5%, with more cuts the next year. Inflation had been continuing at its double-digit level through the first two-thirds of 1981, but then it suddenly fell by more than half as the year came to a close exactly when the sequence of tax cuts started. In 1982, inflation was half the average level of the previous three years, and in 1983 it collapsed all the way to 3%, where it would roughly stay for a generation. The "Great Inflation" of 1973-1981 was a thing of the past.
The difference was not Fed policy that had remained unchanged throughout the transition. The difference was fiscal policy. Marginal tax cuts raised the after-tax return on economic activity, getting people more interested in conducting that activity. This required more money. Real demand for money spiked enormously given the Reagan tax cuts. This enabled the Fed to supply money that actually was doing something economically outside of feeding the price level.
Before, during the Great Inflation, demand for money was largely unreal. People wanted new money so they could speculate against inflation to buy gold, oil futures, real estate or what have you. This is why Volcker's attempts to raise interest rates and restrict the money supply were ineffective. High taxes and inflation had so dulled economic spirits that all money coming from the Fed was excess money to begin with.
After summer 1982, Volcker began releasing money above the old sacred "quantity targets" as the great Reagan boom took off. The episode proved that in the context of an unwieldy public sector, monetary policy itself has no hope of getting the economy back on the track of noninflationary growth.
Paul Volcker was part of the comedy of errors that was the latter stage of the Carter administration. Without Reagan, Volcker would have been another in a line of failed Fed chairmen."
[QUOTE=EihTooms;1999947]
LOL. Ok, Natty. No, I think I will graciously decline getting involved in your strained foundation of a bet. But, by all means, keep on watching those Trump press conferences and feeling the Greatness coming back to America by the minute. LOL.[/QUOTE]Ok I will. I love it when Trump dishes on the corrupt dishonest press of which the majority have become nothing more than the propaganda wing of the Democratic Party. They deserve it! And of course it is your perogative not to accept my proposed wager. Actually I think you are being pretty smart in not making the bet. I wouldn't bet against lower taxes, less regulation and the future Trump economy either.
Guys, I'm going to be bowing out of this conversation, as, for reasons associated to family obligations, I don't expect to be venturing into the Philippines for sex in the foreseeable future, and I prefer to spend my communication time in venues where actual news, rather than Alt. Right propaganda holds sway. Josef Goebbels would be proud of the way some folks here have embraced the messaging coming out of the Trump administration.
[QUOTE=Member#2041;2000036]I prefer to spend my communication time in venues where actual news, rather than Alt. Right propaganda holds sway. Josef Goebbels would be proud of the way some folks here have embraced the messaging coming out of the Trump administration.[/QUOTE]Right Back Atcha Peggy Sue!
[QUOTE=NattyBumpo;2000043]Right Back Atcha Peggy Sue![/QUOTE]But sadly, you seem to be most deeply under the sway of the Alt. Right media. To your credit, you seem well-intentioned, as opposed to others here that are poster children for the deplorables, but so long as you allow yourself to be misinformed, and continue to embrace rather than resist your own confirmation bias, you will not be acting in your own self-interest.
In any case, adios, amigos.
[QUOTE=Member#2041;2000051] deplorables, but so long as you allow yourself to be misinformed, and continue to embrace rather than resist your own confirmation bias, you will not be acting in your own self-interest.
.[/QUOTE]Deplorables. Wasn't that the term Crooked Hillary used when she lost the election? 2041, in that case I am proud to be part of "the deplorables". EVERYTHING you say about the Right can be equally said about yourself and the Left. The difference is WE WON and YOU can't handle it! Sore loser! Nevertheless, have fun in Mexico.
In the immortal words of Henry Clay, one of the greatest statesmen in the history of the USA, and the man whom Abraham Lincoln most admired in American public life:
"I'd rather be right than be President".
Ya, keep telling yourself that, 2041.
[QUOTE=Member#2041;2000089]In the immortal words of Henry Clay, one of the greatest statesmen in the history of the USA, and the man whom Abraham Lincoln most admired in American public life:
"I'd rather be right than be President".[/QUOTE].
[QUOTE=NattyBumpo;1999992]Wrong again! So let me enlighten you:
Volcker and the Reagan Legacy. by Brian Domitrovic, contributing editor Forbes Magazine.
"quoting the original Reagan biographer, Lou Cannon: "Reagan's greatest domestic accomplishment breaking the back of inflation that terrified the nation in the late 1970's was a product not of 'supply side' economics ballyhooed by conservatives, but of the drastic tightening of interest rates by Federal Reserve Chairman Paul Volcker. "[/QUOTE]Sorry, but the actual historical data roundly refutes what an avowed pro-Supply-Sider like Domitrovic says in Forbes Magazine regarding puff-piece biographies promoting Reagan / Supply-Side myths. Taming hyper-inflation had everything to do with Paul Volker in the Carter years, virtually nothing to do with Reagan or Reagan's Supply-Side/Trickle-Down failure. Except in only one way; Republican-style Supply-Side/Trickle-Down policy has had a consistent and perfect record of precipitating and triggering major U.S. economic downturns as it did under Reagan and one does not see hyper-inflation during times of serious economic downturn. Not in the midst of massive job losses, housing value and stock market crashes and the like. Instead, that is the time when we are hoping for signs of inflation (although not hyper-inflation) during the Democratic-style policy recovery because that is when we are certain the jobs creation trend is back on a firmly positive track.
Paul Volker:
[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Volcker[/URL]
[QUOTE]Chairman of the Federal Reserve
President Jimmy Carter nominated Paul Volcker to serve as chairman of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System on July 25, 1979., and was confirmed by the Senate on August 3, 1979, and took office on August 6, 1979. President Ronald Reagan renominated Volcker to a second term in 1983.[/QUOTE]Historical Chart of Fed Funds Rates:
[URL]http://www.macrotrends.net/2015/fed-funds-rate-historical-chart[/URL]
Historical Chart of Inflation Rates:
[URL]http://www.macrotrends.net/1466/inflation-rates-100-year-historical-chart[/URL]
Volker began to raise Fed Funds rates dramatically in late 1979, soon after being appointed to the Fed Chair by Jimmy Carter. As you can see in those charts the rate of Inflation virtually MIRRORS those Fed Funds rate increases, also FALLING dramatically immediately afterwards, within 2-3 months. As always is the case with Fed activity, much of the reaction came about by Volker merely stating or suggesting his intentions to raise Fed Funds rates sooner rather than later. Which is what he did. No, it wasn't a straight line decline without a relatively minor uptick here and there along the way. Nothing ever is in the economy. We look for major inflection points that continue on as a clear and undeniable trend.
But the demonstrably dramatic decline of true hyper-inflation in the near immediate aftermath of Volker raising those rates on Carter's watch and as Carter fully expected him to do when he appointed him and almost a YEAR before Reagan would take the Oath of Office, puts a lie to the myth that either Reagn or Reagan's disastrously failed Supply-Side / Trickle-Down policies had anything whatever to do with that major decline inflection point that occurred during the Carter years, well before Reagan took office.
I realize Reagan ran for his second term in 1984 on the infamous "Morning in America...and ain't I GREAT?!" campaign ads that were essentially ALL about how "he" and his policies tamed hyper-inflation and all that junk. So his biographers and other Supply-Siders have to ignore the actual historical record/data in order to defend their wrong-headed position and perpetuate the myth. However, and unfortunately for them, the historical record/data simply does not support their contention and instead roundly refutes it.
According to a favorite Reagan quote (actually, him quoting John Adams):
"Facts are stubborn things. And whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence. "
Oh, so true. If Ronnie only knew then (or could remember) what we all know now despite his religious followers working mightily for decades to spin it otherwise. LOL.
[QUOTE=NattyBumpo;1999992]I love it when Trump dishes on the corrupt dishonest press of which the majority have become nothing more than the propaganda wing of the Democratic Party. They deserve it! And of course it is your perogative not to accept my proposed wager. Actually I think you are being pretty smart in not making the bet. I wouldn't bet against lower taxes, less regulation and the future Trump economy either.[/QUOTE]Actually, I am all in favor of tax cuts and smart regulation, occasionally tweaked to suit the circumstances. It all depends on when and where the tax cuts go. One of the reasons I vote for Dems is because I like their tax cuts. Haven't got much use for Republican-style tax cuts, disproportionately large ones in the top margins at the expense of everyone else, since I am not a big fan of the inevitable Great Republican Depressions / Recessions, Stock Market and Housing Value Crashes that follow.
But major Dem tax cuts (and tax advantages) like the one proposed and signed into legislation by Jimmy Carter in 1978 that meant rank and file workers, not just the corporate elite, could invest a portion of their earned income in a 401K account tax deferred from every paycheck (while also reducing their payroll/income tax hit on the income) and watch it grow and compound untouched by taxes over years and years and into a healthy nest egg for retirement? I'm a big fan of that one. When Carter cut the Capital Gains Tax Rate from 39.9% to 28%? Yeah, I'm a big fan of that one, too. No president since has cut the Capital Gains Tax Rate as deeply as did Jimmy Carter.
Bill Clinton's massive tax cut on home equity gains at the sale of a primary residence as long as you have lived there for 2 of the previous 5 years? LOVE it. Single filers / home sellers get that first $250,000 of equity gain TAX FREE. Couples get the first $500,000 TAX FREE. Man, just those three brilliant Democratic Party tax cuts have helped make a comfortable retirement a reality for millions and millions of Americans, including me! LOL. Oh, and the big payroll tax cut Barack Obama put into the system in order to help pull us out of the recent Great Republican Recession? I was all for it. And it worked to do what it was meant to do.
But those idiotic Republican-style Supply-Side / Trickle-Down cuts where the top margins get a disproportionately higher tax cut than the the middle and lower margins on the assumption that those top margin folks won't just move that hot money into a bubble destined to burst and crash markets all over creation? Not a big fan of those. Oh, and the other Republican tax cut favorite where they dangle some 4% cut here or there as some great accomplishment when it turns out the country will wind up paying for it with a colossal economic crash that destroys years of stock market / investment savings and home equity? Yep, not a big fan of those either.
I thought you all be interested. The worst President title will never be reached. This poll seems to be very legit:
News Chicago Inc.
Obama 12th best president, Lincoln first, Clinton 15th: Historians.
Just weeks after returning to civilian life, former president Barack Obama was rated the 12th best USA President, while Abraham Lincoln, another president who made his political bones in Illinois, retains the top position.
That's according to a poll of 91 historians rating presidential leadership conducted by C-SPAN ahead of Monday's President's Day holiday. They noted that Obama entered the top rankings for the first time, having not been rated during its last survey in 2009.
In 10 total categories of presidential characteristics, Obama, the former community organizer and Nobel Peace Prize winner came in at third for the category "Pursued Equal Justice for All," and seventh in "Moral Authority," but only at 39 for "Relations with Congress," and 24th in "International Relations. ".
One member of the polls' academic advisory team said he was impressed by Obama's 12th place finish, while another member thought he would have ranked higher. Obama came in behind such popular presidents as Ronald Reagan, who came in at ninth, but ahead of Bill Clinton, who ranked at 15.
Meanwhile Lincoln retained his first spot for the third time the poll was taken by C-SPAN since 2000.
[QUOTE=Revere;2000412]I thought you all be interested. The worst President title will never be reached. This poll seems to be very legit:
.......[/QUOTE]Wait until there are 45 names on the list.
It just amazes me the number of psychics of this thread! Do you do palm readings, too, Smoothy?
[QUOTE=EihTooms;2000324] when it turns out the country will wind up paying for it with a colossal economic crash that destroys years of stock market / investment savings and home equity [/QUOTE].
Has anyone read "objective" US media reports recently? Seems like the US media, even the venerated old names, have morphed into biased "spin factories" or propaganda machines.
By the way, Obama reportedly had a total annual budget of one billion US $ for PR (read propaganda). That's huge!
Just one man's musings.
OM.
(Quoted from the Philippines politics / economics thread but felt my reply is more relevant in this thread).
[QUOTE=Omega3;2009250]Might as well get used to it. For better or for worse, China's star is ascending, especially in Asia, and particularly in the Philippines.
Conversely, America's star is falling rapidly. America is imploding, thanks to the would-be principals of destabilization who seek personal financial gain and who have so successfully brainwashed so many good folk.
Like it or not, Trump is the USA President. Suck it in, and support Trump and support America. "United we stand, divided we fall. " Do not let prevail those vultures who seek only to gain personally by destabilizing the USA, who hope that Trump and the USA will collapse.
Similarly, here, Duterte is the Philippine president. According to surveys, 80% plus of the Filipino people support Duterte. However, here also are those vultures who seek only to gain personally by destabilizing the Philippines, who hope that Duterte and the Philippines will collapse.
I know that there are those who will agree with me, and there are those who will strongly disagree with me, but this is my own honest personal opinion and prayer.
Yours sincerely,
OM.[/QUOTE]Definitely disagree man.
First of all don't try and draw parallels and analogies between Trump and Duterte. To begin with, the majority of Americans disapprove of Trump given his loss in the popular vote. Additionally, his approval ratings have continued to drop since he took office (around 45% now).
[URL]https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/03/13/poll-trumps-approval-rating-dives-wiretap-claim-and-trumpcare/21880423/[/URL]
Second, why should we "suck it in and support Trump". We stand nothing to gain and everything to lose by doing so. Every single thing he's done in office since inauguration day has been a disaster. Literally every single person in his cabinet is either completely unqualified, in bed with the Russians, or gets his rocks off on oil and gas. Then you have the unconstitutional travel ban, repealing of the Affordable Care Act which will stop millions of Americans from getting a decent / affordable healthcare plan, and then replacing it with the shittiest, least thought out replacement, because "who knew healthcare could be so complicated. " Then you have the joke of a press conference, and just when everyone thought he had gotten it out of his system and were thinking he could be presidential (speech to Congress) he drops the Obama bugging allegations.
Which brings me to another point: where he gets his freaking news. The guy has access to all the information and classified intelligence in the country and he gets his news from watching Fox and from Breitbart. He dismisses all respectable news agencies and journalists as 'fake news' then goes and swallows fake news and headlines by the dozen and goes off on his twitter frenzy.
Do you truly believe that if we were to stand by idly and let him do things his way that he will somehow make America great again. ? We have the equivalent of a toddler in office. A ticking time bomb and for some reason you want us to all be on board with it. It's sad what this country has come to.
Oh great, another whiney, creampuff, liberal dolt who reads the fake news instead of the real deal. Move out of the USA Like all the other sore loser twits who said they would when Trump was elected. Meanwhile, the rest of us are enjoying record profits due to confidence in President Trump.
[QUOTE=DavidL;2011389] disagree.[/QUOTE].
Maybe / maybe not. Depends on the political affiliations of the respondents. The three "academic advisors" who conducted the study were clearly biased democrats.
[QUOTE=Revere;2000412]I thought you all be interested. This poll seems to be very legit:
News Chicago Inc.
Obama 12th best president, Lincoln first, Clinton 15th: Historians.
.[/QUOTE].
[QUOTE=DCups;2011455]Maybe / maybe not. Depends on the political affiliations of the respondents. The three "academic advisors" who conducted the study were clearly biased democrats.
.[/QUOTE]Actually, it depends on the criteria used to define the concept of "greatness" and the metrics used to measure each criterion. To the extent that those conducting the analyses were legitimate social scientists, party affiliation should not have been a factor at all. Such studies--and I've read a couple--are interesting, but they assess men who held office in widely different periods, and it's impossible to control for all of the variables associated with these differences.
How to account, for example, for the access to instant communications which enables the five year old current occupant of the White House to blurt out the impulsive electronic impulses that pass for thought in the chaotic gray mass that passes for his brain?
The Trump anomaly notwithstanding, it's very difficult to objectively compare outcomes / characteristics across such a broad span of history.
GE.
Did you even bother to read THIS study, GE? The criteria were defined. Geez, no wonder the democrats lost the election and are floundering as a party.
[QUOTE=GoodEnough;2011486] party affiliation should not have been a factor at all.
GE.[/QUOTE].
[QUOTE=DCups;2011510]Did you even bother to read THIS study, GE? The criteria were defined. Geez, no wonder the democrats lost the election and are floundering as a party.
.[/QUOTE]So, here's a presentation of data prepared by the WEF; not exactly a group of rabid liberals frothing at the mouth to attack Trump. Pretty sure the two things all of the other countries have in common is universal, single payer healthcare and oh year, spending far less of a percentage of GDP on healthcare than the US. But it's all good, since "we're number one," and facts are irrelevant: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/03/this-one-chart-shows-how-far-behind-the-us-lags-in-healthcare?utm_content=buffer112e3&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer
GE.
[QUOTE=GoodEnough;2011594]So, here's a presentation of data prepared by the WEF; not exactly a group of rabid liberals frothing at the mouth to attack Trump. Pretty sure the two things all of the other countries have in common is universal, single payer healthcare and oh year, spending far less of a percentage of GDP on healthcare than the US. But it's all good, since "we're number one," and facts are irrelevant: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/03/this-one-chart-shows-how-far-behind-the-us-lags-in-healthcare?utm_content=buffer112e3&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer
GE.[/QUOTE]Just about every other developed nation has single payer. Health care is seen as a public service in those nations, as well it should be. The US is the outlier. Sad really. And the people who would benefit most continue to vote against their own self-interest.
[QUOTE=Goatscrot;2011612]Just about every other developed nation has single payer. Health care is seen as a public service in those nations, as well it should be. The US is the outlier. Sad really. And the people who would benefit most continue to vote against their own self-interest.[/QUOTE]Well, Mencken was right when he said, to paraphrase him: "No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American voter. " The great genius of the current breed of republicans is their ability to sell up as down, left as right, and exploitation of almost everyone as the greatest good for the greatest number. And there's a substantial minority stupid enough to believe them. I can't explain it, and I haven't seen any pundits who have been able to address the reasons for the momentum of nativist stupidity and blissful ignorance that characterizes much of America. I can't even hope for republicans actually growing a set an impeaching this idiot since his successor is a guy who claims to get his advice from Jesus and who believes climate change is wishful thinking and evolution just a theory. He's as dumb and dangerous as Trump but without the malevolence.
GE.
Just another misguided, mis-informed spin from another liberal fart face.
[QUOTE=GoodEnough;2011634]Well, Mencken was right when he said, to paraphrase him: "No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American voter. " The great genius of the current breed of republicans is their ability to sell up as down, left as right, and exploitation of almost everyone as the greatest good for the greatest number. And there's a substantial minority stupid enough to believe them. I can't explain it, and I haven't seen any pundits who have been able to address the reasons for the momentum of nativist stupidity and blissful ignorance that characterizes much of America. I can't even hope for republicans actually growing a set an impeaching this idiot since his successor is a guy who claims to get his advice from Jesus and who believes climate change is wishful thinking and evolution just a theory. He's as dumb and dangerous as Trump but without the malevolence.
GE.[/QUOTE].
[QUOTE=GoodEnough;2011634]Well, Mencken was right when he said, to paraphrase him: "No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American voter. " The great genius of the current breed of republicans is their ability to sell up as down, left as right, and exploitation of almost everyone as the greatest good for the greatest number. And there's a substantial minority stupid enough to believe them. I can't explain it, and I haven't seen any pundits who have been able to address the reasons for the momentum of nativist stupidity and blissful ignorance that characterizes much of America. I can't even hope for republicans actually growing a set an impeaching this idiot since his successor is a guy who claims to get his advice from Jesus and who believes climate change is wishful thinking and evolution just a theory. He's as dumb and dangerous as Trump but without the malevolence.
GE.[/QUOTE]Mencken was spot on. Also the anti-intellectual movement in the US is astounding. The Repubs play hardball; you also know where they stand on every issues. We progressives will not win out until we stop playing identity politics, get away from the PC crap, and start focusing solely on issues like health care, pension, gun violence, police brutality, etc.
[QUOTE=Goatscrot;2011685]We progressives will not win out until we stop playing identity politics, get away from the PC crap, and start focusing solely on issues like health care, pension, gun violence, police brutality, etc.[/QUOTE]I don't get caught up in politics. I just want them to legalize weed.
Pension is a thing of the past. It worked when people lived 5 years past their retirement date, but these days people are living 30 and 40 years past that. What company can afford that?
Health care. I am a Navy veteran and use those benefits to my advantage.
Gun violence is part of the culture. I have had a license to carry a gun since my 21st birthday almost 24 years ago. Thankfully I have never had the need to even point my weapon at anyone. Everything should not be for everybody, because some people can not handle some things.
Police brutality. I was just watching a couple of videos this morning where cops were trying to place women under arrest but they were refusing. I think one woman was even biting the cop and when he used forced against her everyone in the crowd wanted to holler brutality. Not saying it does not exist. Sure it does, but not as much as we are led to believe.
As a Black American male I have been arrested 3 times and never experienced anything but courteousness. My brother and cousins are police officers and back in the day when my credit was bad I had applied at several agencies as well.
The last ticket I got (8 years ago maybe), I was going a little over 100 through South Carolina and the White trooper pulled me over and gave me a citation for I think 85 in a 70 so that he would not have to arrest me. Even when I mailed the fine by money order, they sent me a check back refunding it. Maybe I just have better luck than everyone else.
[QUOTE=Goatscrot;2011612]...And the people who would benefit most continue to vote against their own self-interest.[/QUOTE]Indeed, these folks are fooled every time into voting against their own self-interest. I guess you can fool some of the people all the time.
[QUOTE=Lefeu;2011904]Indeed, these folks are fooled every time into voting against their own self-interest. I guess you can fool some of the people all the time.[/QUOTE]The folks are prevented by the 2-party duopoly from voting in their self-interest. Remember: if voting changed anything, they wouldn't let you do it.
Speaking as an outsider, all you Yanks, both Republicans and Democrats, are being played for fools when you are picking up the defence burden for Europe, Japan, and S. Korea.
Europe's population is about 200 m more than the US, its economy is larger, yet it gets the nice social welfare goodies whilst the US spends more than 4% of GDP on defence. Seems to me that Europe should not only be able to protect itself, it should shoulder a comparable amount of the burden around the world.
If you believe your partners are paying you to host your forces you need to look up the definition of host. This means that locals are hired to work on the bases providing infrastructure support and the host government picks up some of the cost. In S. Korea the union so strong that as long as local employee remains employed the US government picks up the education cost of their children. Educating children is nice, isn't it? These are adult children going to university, then continuing on for advanced degrees, paid for by the US taxper. The abuse continues. On US bases and diplomatic compounds are lovely commissaries supported by the US tax payer; it picks up the shipping cost of these items so the service members pay US prices. Certainly this is fair. However, somehow European diplomats get access, so the US taxpayer supports feeding the diplomatic community too. And of course there is all the black marketing, which included the Koreans building a tunnel under the base to the liquor store so alcohol could be smuggled out. Further, to maximise its takings, the Korean government restricts the building of housing on the bases, which forces many US service members and the civilians to live "on the economy". The US taxpayer pays the rent. It's $3000+ per month in Seoul.
Thanks.
Here's Obama's legacy of failure, by the numbers (h / t RNC):
$19.9 Trillion: The Staggering Mountain Of Debt Obama Will Leave Behind On January 20,2017. ("Daily History Of The Debt," USA Department Of Treasury, Accessed 12/23/16).
$9. 2 Trillion: The Increase In The National Debt Since Obama Took Office. ("Daily History Of The Debt," USA Department Of Treasury, Accessed 12/23/16).
$1 Trillion: Tax Increases In ObamaCare Over A Decade. ("ObamaCare: Trillion Dollar Tax Hike That Hurts Small Businesses," USA House Of Representatives Committee On Ways And Means, 3/31/16).
$870.3 Billion: Estimated Economic Cost Of All The New Federal Government Regulations Finalized Since Obama Took Office. ("Regulation Rodeo," American Action Forum, Accessed 12/27/16).
$750 Billion: The USA 's Global Trade Deficit Last Year Under Obama. (USA Census Bureau, Accessed 12/27/16).
$690 Billion: Increase In Student Debt Since Obama Took Office. ("Student Loans Owned And Securitized, Outstanding," Federal Reserve Bank Of St. Louis, Accessed 12/27/16).
$377 Billion: ObamaCare's Tax Hikes That Effect The Middle Class. (Glenn Kessler, "Does 'Obamacare' Have $1 Trillion In Tax Hikes, Aimed At The Middle Class," The Washington Post, 3/12/13).
$344 Billion: Estimated Economic Cost Of All The New EPA Regulations Finalized Since Obama Took Office. ("Regulation Rodeo," American Action Forum, Accessed 12/27/16).
$292 Billion: Projected Cost Of Obama's Finalized Clean Power Plan Regulations. (H. Sterling Burnett, "Economic Analysis of Clean Power Plan Shows High Cost, Minimal Benefits," The Heartland Institute, 12/2/15).
$99 Billion: The Growth In The USA 's Annual Trade Deficit With China Since Obama Took Office. ("Trade In Goods With China," USA Census Bureau, Accessed 12/27/16).
$29 Billion: Projected Annual Loss Of Coal Production Due To The Interior Department's New Stream Protection Rule. ("Economic Analysis Of Proposed Stream Protection Rule," Ramboll Environ, 10/15).
$9. 6 Billion: Projected Annual Loss Due To The EPA's 2012 Mercury Rule. ("Hearing Entitled 'A Review Of EPA's Regulatory Activity During The Obama Administration: Energy And Industrial Sectors," USA House Of Representatives Committee On Energy And Commerce, 6/30/16).
$1. 4 Billion: Projected Annual Loss Due To The EPA's 2015 Ozone Rule. ("Final Ozone Rule," American Action Forum, 10/2/15).
583 Million: Hours Of Paperwork To Deal With All The New Federal Government Regulations Finalized Since Obama Took Office. ("Regulation Rodeo," American Action Forum, Accessed 12/27/16).
$500 Million: Projected Annual Loss Due To The EPA's 2015 Coal Ash Rule. ("Hazardous and Solid Waste Management System; Disposal of Coal Combustion Residuals From Electric Utilities," Federal Register, 4/17/15, pg. 21462).
$462.9 Million: Projected Annual Loss Due To The Administration's 2015 "Water Of The United States" Rule. ("Final WOTUS Rule," American Action Forum, 5/28/16).
$400 Million: What Obama Paid Iran As Part Of Its Hostage Deal To Release Prisoners Held By The State Sponsor Of Terror. (Elise Labott, Nicole Gaouette and Kevin Liptak, "US Sent Plane With $400 Million In Cash To Iran," CNN, 8/4/16).
$320 Million: Projected Annual Loss Due To The EPA's 2016 Methane Emissions Rule. ("Hearing Entitled 'A Review Of EPA's Regulatory Activity During The Obama Administration: Energy And Industrial Sectors," USA House Of Representatives Committee On Energy And Commerce, 6/30/16).
2. 3 Million: The Number Of Americans That Could Have Just One Insurer To Choose From Next Year Due To ObamaCare. (Cynthia Cox And Ashley Semanskee, Preliminary Date on Insurer Exits And Entrants In 2017 Affordable Care Act Marketplaces, Kaiser Family Foundation, 8/28/16).
2 Million: Projected Job Losses Under The Trans-Pacific Partnership Trade Deal That Obama Negotiated And Lobbied For. (Robert E. Scott and Elizabeth Glass, "Trans-Pacific Partnership, Currency Manipulation, Trade, And Jobs," Economic Policy Institute, 3/3/16).
301,000: Manufacturing Jobs Lost Since Obama Took Office. (Bureau Of Labor Statistics, Accessed 12/2/16).
280,000: Projected Job Loss Due To The Interior Department's New Stream Protection Rule. ("Economic Analysis Of Proposed Stream Protection Rule," Ramboll Environ, 10/15).
82,288: Number Of Criminals Illegal Immigrants Released By The Obama Administration From 2013 To 2015. (Maria Sacchetti, "Criminal Immigrants Reoffend At High Rates Than ICE Has Suggested," The Boston Globe, 6/4/16).
$8,390: The Increase In The Average Cost Of Tuition, Fees, And Room And Board At A Four Year Public College Since Obama Took Office. ("Trends In College Pricing 2016," The College Board, 10/26/16).
5,000: Reduction In The Number Of Illegal Immigrants Deported This Year Under Obama. (Rafael Bernal, "Deportations Under Obama Could Hit 10-Year Low," The Hill, 8/31/16).
$4,370: The Increase In The Average Cost Of Tuition, Fees, And Room And Board At A Four Year Public College Since Obama Took Office. ("Trends In College Pricing 2016," The College Board, 10/26/16).
2,998: The Number Of New Federal Government Regulations Finalized Since Obama Took Office. ("Regulation Rodeo," American Action Forum, Accessed 12/27/16).
970: The Number Of Counties That Could See No Competition In Healthcare Insurers In 2017 Due To ObamaCare. (Cynthia Cox And Ashley Semanskee, Preliminary Date on Insurer Exits And Entrants In 2017 Affordable Care Act Marketplaces, Kaiser Family Foundation, 8/28/16).
717: Less Democrat State House Representatives Since Obama Took Office. ("2009 State And Legislative Partisan Composition," National Conference Of State Legislatures, 1/26/09; "2016 State And Legislative Partisan Composition," National Conference Of State Legislatures, 12/6/16).
231: Less Democrat State Senators Since Obama Took Office. ("2009 State And Legislative Partisan Composition," National Conference Of State Legislatures, 1/26/09; "2016 State And Legislative Partisan Composition," National Conference Of State Legislatures, 12/6/16).
183: The Number Of New EPA Regulations Finalized Since Obama Took Office. ("Regulation Rodeo," American Action Forum, Accessed 12/27/16).
98%: Increase In Student Debt Since Obama Took Office. ("Student Loans Owned And Securitized, Outstanding," Federal Reserve Bank Of St. Louis, Accessed 12/27/16).
87%: The Increase In The National Debt Since Obama Took Office. ("Daily History Of The Debt," USA Department Of Treasury, Accessed 12/23/16).
63: Less Democrats In The House Of Representatives Since Obama Took Office. (Jennifer E. Manning, "Membership Of The 111th Congress: A Profile," Congressional Research Service, 12/23/09; "House Election Results," The New York Times, 12/19/16).
41: States That Saw Deductibles Increases In 2016 Under ObamaCare. (Nathan Nascimento, "The Latest Problem Under The Affordable Care Act: Deductibles," The National Review, 04/12/16).
28%: The Increase In The Average Cost Of Tuition, Fees, And Room And Board At A Four Year Public College Since Obama Took Office. ("Trends In College Pricing 2016," The College Board, 10/26/16).
23%: The Increase In The Average Cost Of Tuition, Fees, And Room And Board At A Four Year Private College Since Obama Took Office. ("Trends In College Pricing 2016," The College Board, 10/26/16).
22%: Average Increase In ObamaCare Premium's Benchmark Silver Plan In 2017. (Tami Luhby, "ObamaCare Premiums To Soar 22% CNN, 10/25/16).
21: The Number Of Tax Increases In ObamaCare That Total More Than $1 Trillion Over A Decade. ("ObamaCare: Trillion Dollar Tax Hike That Hurts Small Businesses," USA House Of Representatives Committee On Ways And Means, 3/31/16).
18: Less Democrat-Controlled State Legislative Bodies Since Obama Took Office. ("2009 State And Legislative Partisan Composition," National Conference Of State Legislatures, 1/26/09; "2016 State And Legislative Partisan Composition," National Conference Of State Legislatures, 12/6/16).
12: Less Democrat Governors Since Obama Took Office. ("2009 State And Legislative Partisan Composition," National Conference Of State Legislatures, 1/26/09; Jennifer Duffy, "Governors: 2017/2018 Race Ratings," The Cook Political Report, 12/2/16).
12: Less Democrats In The USA Senate Since Obama Took Office. (Jennifer E. Manning, "Membership Of The 111th Congress: A Profile," Congressional Research Service, 12/23/09; "House Election Results," The New York Times, 12/19/16).
11-14%: Projected Rise In Electricity Rates For Most Consumers As A Results Of Obama's Finalized Clean Power Plan Regulations. (H. Sterling Burnett, "Economic Analysis of Clean Power Plan Shows High Cost, Minimal Benefits," The Heartland Institute, 12/2/15).
5%: The Reduction Of The Percentage Of Americans Who Self Identify As Middle-Class Since Obama Took Office. (Frank Newport, "Americans' Identification As Middle Class Edges Back Up," Gallup, 12/15/16).
4%: Drop In The Rate Of Homeownership Since Obama Took Office. ("State Of Working America Data Library," Economic Policy Institute, Accessed 12/27/16).
2%: The "Anemic" Average Annual GDP Growth Since Obama Took Office. (Larry Light, "Obama's 8-Year Economic Legacy: A Mixed Bag," CBS, 12/23/16).
$0. 19: Decrease In The Median USA Hourly Wage Since Obama Took Office. ("State Of Working America Data Library," Economic Policy Institute, Accessed 12/27/16).
0: Excuses Obama Has For Why His Party's Nominee, Who Ran On His Legacy, Failed To Win In November. (The American People, 11/8/16).
Mr. Coalburner:
A little bit too much info here. But as for the increase in debt, did you forget that when Obama took office the world was in the largest financial catastrophe since the Great Depression? Most pundits attributed the problem to the deregulation mania of the GOP Bush administration. Late in his 2nd term when the crisis began Bush himself had urged increases in government spending in order to prime the pump. This is called fiscal policy and it is the usual Government response to severe economic downturns. Good news is that Obama left the economy on its way to a robust recovery. However now we have a president with a double digit IQ who wants to rescind the Obama regulation regime. What is the quote by George Santayana, "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it. ".
[QUOTE=Pompetus;2011935]. Good news is that Obama left the economy on its way to a robust recovery".[/QUOTE]This is a joke, right? The economy's really going to recover with all those temp waiter, bar tender and nursing home attendant part-time jobs in non-tradeable goods. But about the deficit, what's to worry: 'a debt that cannot be repaid, won't be repaid (Econ101).
What are you smoking, Pomp? Must be some pretty good shit.
[QUOTE=Pompetus;2011935]
too much info here. .. Obama left the economy on its way to a robust recovery.[/QUOTE].
Thanks for acknowledging this, Huts. Trump and Germany's chancellor were recently arguing over this.
[QUOTE=Hutsori;2011924]Speaking as an outsider, all you Yanks, both Republicans and Democrats, are being played for fools when you are picking up the defence burden for Europe, Japan, and S. Korea.
[/QUOTE].
[QUOTE=Pompetus;2011935] Good news is that Obama left the economy on its way to a robust recovery. [/QUOTE]You are right. No Republican president has ever left office with as much improvement in place and at work over what was occurring in the economy when he first took office as Obama did. None. And there is zero reason to believe Trump and his fellow Republicans in Congress will match much less beat Obama's record of improvement when they walk away as well.
Smoothy, take it easy on the alcohol. Your brain is fried.
[QUOTE=EihTooms;2012215]You are right. No Republican president has ever left office...[/QUOTE].
Obama's failed Domestic Policy:
1) Failure to secure the Border.
2) Illegals bringing guns, drug and diseases through the southern border.
3) Bowe Bergdahl swap.
4) Passing on the keystone pipeline.
5) 9 Trillion dollars more in debt.
6) Vast expansion of government.
7) Racial Division at all-time high.
8) Inviting Bomb Boy Ahmed to White House.
9) Disrespect for Cops.
10) Failed economic stimulus plan.
11) Constant disregard for the Constitution and tyrannical rule.
12) China overtook America as world's largest economy.
13) Double Downgrade.
14) Housing policies failed to stop foreclosures.
15) Price of healthcare has drastically risen for those purchasing it.
16) Education policies failed to curb college costs.
17) Highest percentage of Americans on Food Stamps and Medicaid.
18) Record 92,898,000 Americans over 16 years not working.
19) Lowest Labor Force participation rate of 62.7%.
20) Denying the notion of American Exceptionalism.
21) Securing the Olympics for Chicago in 2016.
22) Naming numerous Communists / Socialists / Progressives to Czar Positions.
23) Mismanagement and cover up of Terrorist shootings in San Bernardino, California.
24) Mismanagement of Gulf Oil Spill.
25) Disastrous Vetting Process of "Immigrants" from Muslim Nations.
26) Refusing to Listen to CIA / FBI that there is no way to properly vet certain immigrants from Muslim nations.
27) Fort Hood Shooting.
28) Colorado EPA Disaster.
29) Veto of 911 Crime Bill- which was overturned.
30) Worst economic recovery since the depression with anemic GDP numbers.
31) Over 94 million Americans out of the workforce.
32) Obama commutes sentence on Chelsea Manning.
33) Obama commuted the sentence of FALN activist Oscar Lpez Rivera.
1) IRS targets Obama's enemies.
2) Benghazi.
3) Spying on the AP.
4) The ATF "Fast and Furious" scheme.
5) Sebelius demands payment.
6) The Pigford Agriculture Department Scandal.
7) The General Services Administration Las Vegas Spending Spree.
8) Veterans Affairs in Disney World and neglecting vets.
9) Solyndra.
10) New Black Panthers Voter Intimidation.
11) The hacking of Sharyl Attkisson's computer.
12) Obama's LIES about the Affordable Care Act.
13) "I'll Pass My Own Laws".
14) NSA Spying on American People.
1) Lack of solidarity with Israel.
2) Disaster with the Arab Spring.
3) Crimea.
4) Leaving Iraq too soon and letting ISIS take over.
5) Handling of Syrian Red Line.
6) Calling ISIS "JV".
7) Failing to Recognize ISIS as a Radical (or Devout) Muslim Movement.
8) Returning the bust of Churchill to the Brits.
9) Lack of Confidence by NATO nations.
10) Signing a Disastrous Nuclear Deal with the Mullahs of Iran.
11) Paid $5 Billion & Released 5 Taliban Prisoners For Deserter Bergdahl.
12) Waging war by attacking Libya without Congressional approval.
13) Allowed the building of Chinese bases in the South China Sea and off the coast of Somalia at the entrance to the gulf of Aden.
14) Paying ransom to Iranian for hostages- and using foreign currency in unmarked plane.
15) Lying about paying ransom (which media ignored!
16) Pays tribute to Japanese at Hiroshima on US Memorial Day.
17) Obama trashed America 18 times on Asian Tour.
18) Pushing the UN Resolution condemning Israel for legally building houses in Jewish neighborhoods.
19) Released $221 million to the Palestinian Authority.
Coalburner, how do you feel about Donald Trump lying about Obama having him bugged, and also the numerous examples of members of the Trump Administration acting in concert with the Russians to skew our election process? None of the supposed Obama "disasters" you cited would hold a candle to a Presidential candidate colluding with an enemy state to influence our elections. That's called TREASON.
[QUOTE=Member#2041;2012371]Coalburner, how do you feel about Donald Trump lying about Obama having him bugged, and also the numerous examples of members of the Trump Administration acting in concert with the Russians to skew our election process? None of the supposed Obama "disasters" you cited would hold a candle to a Presidential candidate colluding with an enemy state to influence our elections. That's called TREASON.[/QUOTE]All speculation, no proof.
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2041, how do you feel about Coalburner's recent posts about Obummer's sordid legacy? Can you refute any of these you braindead bonehead?
[QUOTE=Member#2041;2012371] how do you feel about .[/QUOTE].
Hi Golfinho, arguing with Pomp, 2041, GE, David Loser, Kabul and Backassward Smoothy is like teaching a group of morons integral calculus. They'll never get it. They don't have the brain capacity. They're all pissed off because they lost the election and don't have a fucking clue as to why. You might as well teach pigs to fly and sing in harmony while shitting chocolate-covered caviar.
[QUOTE=Golfinho;2012015]This is a joke, right? The economy's really going to recover with all those temp waiter, bar tender and nursing home attendant part-time jobs in non-tradeable goods. But about the deficit, what's to worry: 'a debt that cannot be repaid, won't be repaid (Econ101).[/QUOTE].
All talk and no action.
[QUOTE=Member#2041;2000036]Guys, I'm going to be bowing out of this conversation, .[/QUOTE].
[QUOTE=Pompetus;2011935]Mr. Coalburner:
A little bit too much info here. But as for the increase in debt, did you forget that when Obama took office the world was in the largest financial catastrophe since the Great Depression? Most pundits attributed the problem to the deregulation mania of the GOP Bush administration. Late in his 2nd term when the crisis began Bush himself had urged increases in government spending in order to prime the pump. This is called fiscal policy and it is the usual Government response to severe economic downturns. Good news is that Obama left the economy on its way to a robust recovery. However now we have a president with a double digit IQ who wants to rescind the Obama regulation regime. What is the quote by George Santayana, "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it. ".[/QUOTE]So let me get this straight, you're blaming Bush for the last 8 disastrous years of the Obama admin? Trump would gladly take that scenario over the one he's confronted with now thanks to the disastrous legacy of Obama.
BTW, what's this 'robust economy' that you're talking about? Where is your data to support this? What do you have to counter just a few of these stats:
-National debt at $20 trillion. Doubled in the last 8 years.
-Not a single year of hitting a 3% GDP in the last 8 years.
-Lowest labor participation rates since the 1970's, with 95 million Americans out of the labor force making the current unemployment rate a fantasy.
-Lowest home ownership rate in 51 years despite mortgage rates artificially kept at record lows.
-Over 11 million more Americans on food stamps.
-More than 43 million Americans now live in poverty.
-$873 billion in regulation costs. Number of regulations that been finalized under President Obama almost 3,000.
-300,000 manufacturing jobs lost.
-Global trade deficit of over $732 billion just last year.
[QUOTE=Coalburner69;2012569]So let me get this straight, you're blaming Bush for the last 8 disastrous years of the Obama admin? Trump would gladly take that scenario over the one he's confronted with now thanks to the disastrous legacy of Obama.
BTW, what's this 'robust economy' that you're talking about? Where is your data to support this? What do you have to counter just a few of these stats:
-National debt at $20 trillion. Doubled in the last 8 years.
-Not a single year of hitting a 3% GDP in the last 8 years.
-Lowest labor participation rates since the 1970's, with 95 million Americans out of the labor force making the current unemployment rate a fantasy.
-Lowest home ownership rate in 51 years despite mortgage rates artificially kept at record lows.
-Over 11 million more Americans on food stamps.
-More than 43 million Americans now live in poverty.
-$873 billion in regulation costs. Number of regulations that been finalized under President Obama almost 3,000.
-300,000 manufacturing jobs lost.
-Global trade deficit of over $732 billion just last year.[/QUOTE]Actually, Obama's Presidency was NOT a disaster, with the sole exception being that it resulted in Hillary Clinton, a lousy candidate, running for President and giving us Trump.
In fact, under Obama, the economic catastrophe he inherited from Bush was reversed. The Stock Market tripled in valuation. The housing collapse was reversed. And no terrorist attacks from foreigners succeeded in the USA (a handful WERE carried out by AMERICANS against American citizens) - but this was still a vast improvement over the record his predecessor.
Most people who had any skills and education did quite well economically under the Obama Presidency. 300,000 manufacturing jobs were lost, but over 10 MILLION service jobs were gained. The lower labor participation rate is due to over tens of millions of Americans aging out of the work force as the baby boom began to reach retirement age.
Over 15 Million Americans gained access to health insurance for the first time under Obama. Trump plans on negating that, plus screwing another 9 Million more out of the ability to get insurance.
My personal Net Worth more than doubled during the Obama Presidency from when he took office in January of 2009. That's actually fairly typical. If you are an American and yours didn't, it's more a reflection on your own lack of talents than on the Obama economic recovery.
Coalburner69 and D Cups, hate to break it to you but you can cherry pick and list all the piddly negatives you can dig up about the current economy and national security situation while ignoring all the overwhelming positives relative to what was occuring when Obama first took office more than offsetting them but there is one giant bull elephant sized bit of empirical evidence in the room arguing mightily against your contentions; even the Republicans whose expert lies you apparently swallowed whole and worked to help them get elected don't believe a word of their own lies about "how bad things are now!"
LOL. Has any incoming president enjoyed the luxury of doing virtually NOTHING significant since election night and now more than four months later more than Donald Trump? The guy is on track to soak up more three day weekends on the golf course beginning sometime Thursday afternoon in just his first six months in office at taxpayers' expense than Obama took in eight years. He is so lazy he hasn't even managed to work up an Executive Action that would stand up to the most cursory reading of it vs the USA Constitution. He somehow got through one 80 minute address to Congress reading a telepromptered speech that seems to have been unearthed from the Harding administration, so musty, moldy and tired were the classic failed Republican memes included. Now he seems determined to dither around week after week rehashing the good ol' days of his weird presidential campaign, congratulating himself for how well he bamboozled his supporters into thinking he really was going to accomplish something on their behalf and soon.
But as lackadaisical, lazy, dithering and distracted as Trump is staying up all night shouting at cable news shows on tv, tweeting nonsense and eating Big Mac Combos, the Republican leadership in Congress is luxuriating even MORE in classic Republican "doing nothingness".
I thought the economy was "in crisis!" and national security was in so much trouble Trump HAD to get that idiotic counterproductive "Muslim Ban" Executive Action in place ASAP. Or, better yet, after a week or two of basking in the glory of that aforementioned telepromptered 80 minutes of relative lucidity except for the Harding Administration list of priorities.
Apparently not. And there is a very compelling reason Trump and his fellow Republicans in Congress have not really DONE anything in the months since they have been in charge; they know things are going VERY WELL right now. The are happy to coast along in the wake of what Obama wrought through blood, sweat and tears over the past 8 years and, so typical of Republicans, "take credit" for the still ongoing record number of consecutive months of positive job growth, very low unemployment rate, rising property values, decent quarterly profits and earnings reports and the climbing stock market that accompanies all of that.
Both Trump and the Repubs in Congress know very well their "doing something" can only screw up what is actually moving along quite nicely and has been doing so for a few years now. So they aren't really doing anything. Oh, except grousing about how terrible things are while they propose and do nothing to supposedly "fix" it. LOL.
[QUOTE=EihTooms;2012624]cherry pick LOL.[/QUOTE]Cherry pick? Coalburner listed four pages of facts and figures regarding Obummer's reign of shit. Can you refute even ONE of the FIFTY-SIX examples of failed domestic and foreign policies, scandals or other disasters he is responsible for?
[QUOTE=Member#2041;2012621]Actually, Obama's Presidency was NOT a disaster, [/QUOTE]See Coalburner's lengthy examples and I dare you to refute just ONE of the multitude of these MAJOR FUCKUPS you delusional DOLT.
[QUOTE=DCups;2012757]See Coalburner's lengthy examples and I dare you to refute just ONE of the multitude of these MAJOR FUCKUPS you delusional DOLT.[/QUOTE]Don't waste anymore of your time and energy on them. They have no relevant facts or figures to counter with and when they start 'cherry picking' a few such as how an increase of low paying service jobs some how offsets the loss of high paying manufacturing jobs, and how great Obama care is, it simply doesn't pass the laugh test.
The only thing they got right was that Clinton was a horrific candidate, but then again she ran on Obama's platform and record.
[QUOTE=DCups;2012757]See Coalburner's lengthy examples and I dare you to refute just ONE of the multitude of these MAJOR FUCKUPS you delusional DOLT.[/QUOTE] I did in post #973. Apparently, your lack of literacy prevented you from comprehending the reply.
[QUOTE=DCups;2012756]Cherry pick? Coalburner listed four pages of facts and figures regarding Obummer's reign of shit. Can you refute even ONE of the FIFTY-SIX examples of failed domestic and foreign policies, scandals or other disasters he is responsible for?[/QUOTE]Uh, you mean his irrefutable "facts" like:
"9) Disrespect for Cops.
10) Failed economic stimulus plan.
11) Constant disregard for the Constitution and tyrannical rule. "
LOL.
How about a near record 75 straight months of positive jobs creation vs a net LOSS of 600,000+ private sector jobs by the end of the previous guy's grueling 8 year long disastrously failed presidency? How about regularly seeing 200,000+ jobs created per month vs LOSING 800,000 jobs per month? How about an unemployment rate steadily declining to 5% and below instead of skyrocketing toward double digits? How about a total reversal of the stock market plunge into new highs, tripling the market as measured by the S&P 500 Index? How about my property values totally recovering from the Bush / GOP crash and climbing to new highs?
All of which began to occur a couple of weeks after that supposed "10) Failed economic stimulus plan" was signed into legislation (with almost NO Repub votes, BTW) and put to work in the system. And those critical positive economic metrics never looked back or went into reverse direction ever since. Oh, and that was done at the end of February 2009. Please remind me again what Trump and his fellow Repubs in Congress have done to trigger ANYTHING as remarkably positive for the USA Economy now that they've had a month LONGER in control of the levers than Obama and the Dems had by February 2009.
But I hear Trump's golf game is coming along better than ever!
[QUOTE=EihTooms;2012868]Uh, you mean his irrefutable "facts" like:
"9) Disrespect for Cops.
10) Failed economic stimulus plan.
11) Constant disregard for the Constitution and tyrannical rule. "
LOL.
How about a near record 75 straight months of positive jobs creation vs a net LOSS of 600,000+ private sector jobs by the end of the previous guy's grueling 8 year long disastrously failed presidency? How about regularly seeing 200,000+ jobs created per month vs LOSING 800,000 jobs per month? How about an unemployment rate steadily declining to 5% and below instead of skyrocketing toward double digits? How about a total reversal of the stock market plunge into new highs, tripling the market as measured by the S&P 500 Index? How about my property values totally recovering from the Bush / GOP crash and climbing to new highs?
All of which began to occur a couple of weeks after that supposed "10) Failed economic stimulus plan" was signed into legislation (with almost NO Repub votes, BTW) and put to work in the system. And those critical positive economic metrics never looked back or went into reverse direction ever since. Oh, and that was done at the end of February 2009. Please remind me again what Trump and his fellow Repubs in Congress have done to trigger ANYTHING as remarkably positive for the USA Economy now that they've had a month LONGER in control of the levers than Obama and the Dems had by February 2009.
But I hear Trump's golf game is coming along better than ever![/QUOTE]🤗129303; A nice fact-based refutation. Unfortunately, we've entered into an era of fact free debate, in which what one "feels," or "knows in his heart to be true," is equivalent to fact, science, or empirical proof. Arguments with people who buy into the Trump psychosis is futile. For whatever it's worth, I think the current president is--as concurred by two pretty prominent psychiatrists whose articles I've read recently--a malignant narcissist, who can no more help what he is than your average schizophrenic. It's the supporting cast of those empowering his delusions, who believe it's fine to substitute delusion for fact, who are even more contemptible than he is. The danger for the US of course is the line between fact and delusion is becoming ever more blurred for the American public and that's a condition that may persist long after Trump is mercifully gone.
GE.
[QUOTE=Coalburner69;2012779]Don't waste anymore of your time and energy on them. [/QUOTE]Ya, you're right, Coalburner. Smoothy, 2041, et al you win! You couldn't win an election but you win the debate here in ISG because it makes no sense to continue. So I forfeit to your interminable stupidity and doomsday predictions. Congratulations. Now you can take your fists out of your asses and put the crystal ball in there where you will get better use out of it. I will enjoy seeing the continuous imploding of the democrapic party and all things Obama. GO TEAM TRUMP!
[QUOTE=Coalburner69;2012373]All speculation, no proof.[/QUOTE]Actually, the Director of the FBI, a Republican, BTW, and the person who actually has access to the evidence, flat out called Trump a liar before a Congressional hearing, with respect to both Obama's supposed bugging of Trump tower, and Trump's tweeted claim that the FBI has found nothing to link his campaign and the Russians attempt to hack the election.
[QUOTE=Member#2041;2013129]Actually, the Director of the FBI, a Republican, BTW, and the person who actually has access to the evidence, flat out called Trump a liar before a Congressional hearing, with respect to both Obama's supposed bugging of Trump tower, and Trump's tweeted claim that the FBI has found nothing to link his campaign and the Russians attempt to hack the election.[/QUOTE]Recent developments regarding this broke today. Your news outlets (CNN, CNBC, ABC, NBC, etc) probably won't cover it, so check Fox news if you're interested.
[QUOTE=Coalburner69;2013156]Recent developments regarding this broke today. Your news outlets (CNN, CNBC, ABC, NBC, etc) probably won't cover it, so check Fox news if you're interested.[/QUOTE] I saw the recent developments. They don't alter the fact that Trump made a false accusation against Obama, and was called out as a liar because of it by James Comey before Congress. What the recent developments DO suggest is that a Republican in Congress (Nunes) violated his Constitutional oath in passing information to Trump which was shared in confidential briefings. The corruption is deep amongst Trump's campaign officials. Who include the aforementioned Congressman Nunes.
Even Fox News acknowledges that if people in the Trump administration were overheard, it was because FOREIGN Agents were being lawfully surveiled, and the Trump people happened to have conversations with those foreign agents who were lawfully and appropriately being monitored. That is not in any way, shape, or form what Trump improperly called Obama out for doing, and which Comey made clear, was a false accusation made by Trump. Nothing in this new disclosure alters that fact - although it DOES impugn the credibility of Devin Nunes, and suggests that Nunes acted in violation of his oath of office.
BTW, Fox News is not a reputable news outlet, so you need to come up with a more reliable citation from a less biased source in order to have it given any credence (and BTW, Breitbart doesn't qualify). That being said, they seem to have gotten the facts correct, and only their spin and emphasis wrong. In fact, this disclosure is even MORE damning to the Trump administration, because it shows that they were in fact in contact with foreign agents who were appropriately under U.S. Intelligence Surveillance at the time.
[QUOTE=Member#2041;2013238]I saw the recent developments. They don't alter the fact that Trump made a false accusation against Obama, and was called out as a liar because of it by James Comey before Congress. What the recent developments DO suggest is that a Republican in Congress (Nunes) violated his Constitutional oath in passing information to Trump which was shared in confidential briefings. The corruption is deep amongst Trump's campaign officials. Who include the aforementioned Congressman Nunes.
Even Fox News acknowledges that if people in the Trump administration were overheard, it was because FOREIGN Agents were being lawfully surveiled, and the Trump people happened to have conversations with those foreign agents who were lawfully and appropriately being monitored. That is not in any way, shape, or form what Trump improperly called Obama out for doing, and which Comey made clear, was a false accusation made by Trump. Nothing in this new disclosure alters that fact - although it DOES impugn the credibility of Devin Nunes, and suggests that Nunes acted in violation of his oath of office.
BTW, Fox News is not a reputable news outlet, so you need to come up with a more reliable citation from a less biased source in order to have it given any credence (and BTW, Breitbart doesn't qualify). That being said, they seem to have gotten the facts correct, and only their spin and emphasis wrong. In fact, this disclosure is even MORE damning to the Trump administration, because it shows that they were in fact in contact with foreign agents who were appropriately under U.S. Intelligence Surveillance at the time.[/QUOTE]Don't waste your time, Member #2041. Some people just believe what they want to believe.
Well gents, Trump will appoint a pro-life justice. In the eighties before HIV, I rarely wore a condom with one night stands. After my son was born, and when HIV became a thing, I started to buy them. All I can say is Roe v Wade will be challenged very soon with this appointment. I will just say that my vasectomy has saved me at least three times with intensive long-term fucking with foreign women. I would encourage everyone to take this important step to protect their own financial futures. There are too many paternity court cases on TV for a reason. You cannot trust these stupid girls to not get knocked up. The maternal instinct is too strong.
[QUOTE=AllTooHorny;2026150]Don't waste your time, Member #2041. Some people just believe what they want to believe.[/QUOTE]Right you are. Facts don't work. Logical argument doesn't work. Science doesn't work. Verification of the 500 lies or so the buffoon tells each day doesn't work. In short, nothing works for those cult members. Better just to shake your head and walk away.
[QUOTE=Amadeuss;2438228]You not have a health insurance in the US? --but you have a travel insurance, I assume? Then you much better off there in Kampala then in the war zone US with the warlord T swinging his stick. Just keep yourself 2 m away from people and hope your fuckmates are virus free.
Anyway. I survived many years of unprotected sex. I don't want to die now of an unprotected handshake.[/QUOTE]As an European I would be proud to have a leader as Trump! You may take the Merkel's, Wir schaffen das!, for free. How Democrats almost ruined your country!
[QUOTE=Golds;2438293]As an European I would be proud to have a leader as Trump! You may take the Merkel's, Wir schaffen das!, for free. How Democrats almost ruined your country![/QUOTE]As an American, you can have him. This guy minimize the threat of the virus just one day after the WHO declared it a pandemic. No leadership skills at all. From day one, he did not take this serious. Recently, Trump wants the nation opened up for Easter. He wants the churches pack with people. While new cases of coronavirus continues to rise and the death total as well. Yes, you can have him and his clown behavior.
[QUOTE=Confiable;2438563] This guy minimize the threat of the virus just one day after the WHO declared it a pandemic. No leadership skills at all. From day one, he did not take this serious. While new cases of coronavirus continues to rise and the death total as well.[/QUOTE]The Chinese have been living with viral outbreaks for years. They've gotten used to it. We've all seen them everywhere wearing their masks. Two months ago, when masks were disappearing from retail shelves in America, I asked everywhere CVS, Lowe's, Home Depot, Ace Hardware 'what happened? They all said Chinese came in and bought them all and been calling on the phone non-stop asking for more. So now what we have is the new normal, a descent to the lowest common denominator, a Chinese standard of life. There's nothing any President or any leader in the Western leader could do about this. Prepare yourself for the new normal: this virus isn't going away, or it will be succeeded by a new one. At least now we know what your government thinks your life is worth: twelve-hundred dollars.
[QUOTE=Golfinho;2438591]The Chinese have been living with viral outbreaks for years. They've gotten used to it. We've all seen them everywhere wearing their masks. Two months ago, when masks were disappearing from retail shelves in America, I asked everywhere CVS, Lowe's, Home Depot, Ace Hardware 'what happened? They all said Chinese came in and bought them all and been calling on the phone non-stop asking for more. So now what we have is the new normal, a descent to the lowest common denominator, a Chinese standard of life. There's nothing any President or any leader in the Western leader could do about this. Prepare yourself for the new normal: this virus isn't going away, or it will be succeeded by a new one. At least now we know what your government thinks your life is worth: twelve-hundred dollars.[/QUOTE]A capitalist society / government don't care about it's people like the USA. You are speaking to the choir. Also, american history has shown this. But also it's the fault of the government allowing so many companies to move overseas. Now you have a country that is more of a consumer than a producer. Capitalism at it's finest.
[QUOTE=Confiable;2438563]As an American, you can have him. This guy minimize the threat of the virus just one day after the WHO declared it a pandemic. No leadership skills at all. From day one, he did not take this serious. Recently, Trump wants the nation opened up for Easter. He wants the churches pack with people. While new cases of coronavirus continues to rise and the death total as well. Yes, you can have him and his clown behavior.[/QUOTE]Sorry, that's just not true. Trump restricted immigration from China very early in the crisis, back when Italian mayors were encouraging people to hug the nearest chinaman. Of course the media and democrats accused him of "racism" as always, but it would be much worse if he hadn't blocked the migration.
As for his Easter comments, that is an aim not a concrete deadline. And why shouldn't we aim to get things going as fast as possible? Every week of this terrible lockdown costs hundreds of billions of dollars and sees millions of jobs and livelihoods lost. If Obama had said the exact same thing, people like you and CNN would call it "inspiring leadership". Ho hum.
[QUOTE=ChrisP;2438734]Sorry, that's just not true. Trump restricted immigration from China very early in the crisis, back when Italian mayors were encouraging people to hug the nearest chinaman. Of course the media and democrats accused him of "racism" as always, but it would be much worse if he hadn't blocked the migration.
As for his Easter comments, that is an aim not a concrete deadline. And why shouldn't we aim to get things going as fast as possible? Every week of this terrible lockdown costs hundreds of billions of dollars and sees millions of jobs and livelihoods lost. If Obama had said the exact same thing, people like you and CNN would call it "inspiring leadership". Ho hum.[/QUOTE]
Everthing I said was factual. You can research it. You defending him will not change the facts. This is not about Obama so stop deflecting. FYI I am not a democrat. So that comment was useless. Also, it was stupid of him to make the Easter remarks contrary to the advise of medical experts. That's not even debatable. It was not smart on his part no matter how you want or try to twist it. Most of the major airlines stopped/suspended flights to China prior to Trump's annoucement. Even the state department told americans not to travel to China because of the outbreak prior to Trump.
[QUOTE=Confiable;2438742]Everthing I said was factual. You can research it. You defending him will not change the facts. This is not about Obama so stop deflecting. FYI I am not a democrat. So that comment was useless. Also, it was stupid of him to make the Easter remarks contrary to the advise of medical experts. That's not even debatable. It was not smart on his part no matter how you want or try to twist it. Most of the major airlines stopped/suspended flights to China prior to Trump's annoucement. Even the state department told americans not to travel to China because of the outbreak prior to Trump.[/QUOTE]You don't seem to understand what "factual" means. Saying things like "no leadership skills at all" and "he did not take this serious" is not factual, it is your opinion (and a wrong one at that). The relevant fact here is that Trump announced restrictions on entry from China way back in January, well ahead of the curve, in the face of the usual media / democrat opposition. The only other Western country to implement restrictions on China in January was Italy, which did so on the same day as Trump. Those are facts. Go research them.
[QUOTE=ChrisP;2438764]You don't seem to understand what "factual" means. Saying things like "no leadership skills at all" and "he did not take this serious" is not factual, it is your opinion (and a wrong one at that). The relevant fact here is that Trump announced restrictions on entry from China way back in January, well ahead of the curve, in the face of the usual media / democrat opposition. The only other Western country to implement restrictions on China in January was Italy, which did so on the same day as Trump. Those are facts. Go research them.[/QUOTE]Chris P is on the money and the other "Occupy Democrat" twit can please himself. I really hate it when posters use this forum to angle in their own political views.
[QUOTE=ChrisP;2438764]You don't seem to understand what "factual" means. Saying things like "no leadership skills at all" and "he did not take this serious" is not factual, it is your opinion (and a wrong one at that). The relevant fact here is that Trump announced restrictions on entry from China way back in January, well ahead of the curve, in the face of the usual media / democrat opposition. The only other Western country to implement restrictions on China in January was Italy, which did so on the same day as Trump. Those are facts. Go research them.[/QUOTE]Once again most major airlines stopped flying to China prior to trump's message and the state department also advised americans against going there. Proaction steps were already being taken. That is the facts. His health advisors are the ones who convinced him to implement the restriction so don't act like he came up with the idea on his own. The only positive thing he did was listen to them. Several countries also closed their borders in January- Japan, Russia, and Pakistan. So don't act like other countries were not concerned. Also, saying you have the situation under contol before you know all the facts is poor leadership skills and he made that statement more than once. Saying you want to open up the nation on Easter is just plan stupid when the pandemic is not even close to being controlled. I guess that's showing great leadership. I am done discussing this subject.
[QUOTE=Acejack;2438771]Chris P is on the money and the other "Occupy Democrat" twit can please himself. I really hate it when posters use this forum to angle in their own political views.[/QUOTE]It's obvious you can't read and comprehend. You would have known that I am an independent. I see you like to bring up labels and ignore the facts. A childish game that republicans and democrats play with each other. Grow up.
[QUOTE=Confiable;2438774]Once again most major airlines stopped flying to China prior to trump's message and the state department also advised americans against going there. Proaction steps were already being taken. That is the facts. His health advisors are the ones who convinced him to implement the restriction so don't act like he came up with the idea on his own. The only positive thing he did was listen to them. Several countries also closed their borders in January- Japan, Russia, and Pakistan. So don't act like other countries were not concerned. Also, saying you have the situation under contol before you know all the facts is poor leadership skills and he made that statement more than once. Saying you want to open up the nation on Easter is just plan stupid when the pandemic is not even close to being controlled. I guess that's showing great leadership. I am done discussing this subject.[/QUOTE]Three US-based airlines had stopped flights prior to Trump's January restrictions, but other US and international airlines had not. Trump's early actions reduced the number of corona carriers entering the USA, against the wishes of the democrats and media who claimed it was "racist". If you were impartial you would recognise that fact and applaud him for it.
I didn't "act like he came up with the idea on his own". He listened to his health advisors, and took prompt and decisive action, much more quickly than leaders of other Western nations. That looks like good leadership skills to me.
And again, either you seem not to have read my post or your geographical knowledge is severely lacking. I said Trump was the first Western leader to implement travel restrictions on China. Russia, Pakistan and Japan are not in the West.
If you want to attack Trump for something of which he is guilty, such as rudeness to his opponents, go right ahead. But when you say things which are simply not true, and then claim your incorrect opinions to be "factual", don't be surprised when people call you out on it.
I think you nailed it about testing in the US. It won't change anything if every single American were tested. In fact, it would increase infections because even home testing kits that are mailed can spread the virus. It's all about isolation. Testing is a political football in America. Why do we hear so much about testing in American media? I believe it is because American media are more politically polarized and motivated than ever before. If you doubt that, spend an hour or two watching any of the cable news programs (you can get them on the Internet) that depend on advertising revenue and ratings. Fox, cnn, msnbc. Then spend an hour or two watching any rest of world news outlet or the cable news channels that don't depend on advertising (BBC, PBS). The difference is very striking. The ratings and advertising dependent outlets will say most anything to keep the audiences they've cultivated. More than anything else, that means 24/7 Trump.
[QUOTE=Zeos1;2438695]There are many vectors. One of the now famous ones was in South Korea. An infected person was at a large mega-church conference and infected many who in turn infected many. And in Canada a dental conference and a doctors hockey tournament have infected many.
I think the testing failure was a big thing (US), but the far bigger failure is the failure to get people to isolate. Assume everyone may have it so isolate. And those that have it either recover or die. As long as they are not infecting anyone else the virus dies. It's a very simple concept. Very devastating economically but the only way to stop this thing. And that's basically what worked in China. And relentless contact tracing and testing has helped some countries. But not once it has really gotten away. And it has gotten away in the USA. No amount of testing will change anything now. Not until you get people to stop spreading it.
Testing still is important for health care workers. Don't get me wrong. You need to know that they are not spreading it. And when they have it they need to go home. But for the general population right now testing is irrelevant. In the future, yes. Some sort of testing may be needed to know who has had it and who hasn't. But that is a different test anyway.[/QUOTE]
Uganda. That's the topic.
Did Trump ever been in Uganda? If not, its not worth to talk about that clown in the Uganda thread.
Lets move on.