Rants and WTF are you talking about and Coronavirus!

Thread Starter.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2442060]You are right. Let get back to sex topic after today then LOL.

I much prefer to talk about mongering than virus, which I can do with my private life, where as mongering, I cannot discuss in my private life.[/QUOTE]You don't tell to your relatives, or neighbors, or at work, where you spend your holidays? When I tell about my holidays, ski free riding or bicycle climbing, people say: You are so passionate, when You tell You have stars in eyes, like when I see a beauty, but they are rare.

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2441987]More testing means more of the infected people will be confirmed to have the virus.[/QUOTE]Yes, which means that the death rate will be more accurate compared to when less testing takes place e. G. Sweden. Unfortunately some people here fail to understand that and basically draw conclusions from data which they do not understand.

Without a doubt population density majorly determines infection rates which in turn plays a heavy hand in determining mortality rates (deaths within a total population). What the density angle doesn't really explain is the case fatality rate, CFR (deaths once you have the disease). In the case of the US, ours is sitting at 3. 7%. Even in densely populated NYC as you explain, that rate is at 6.3%. Compare those numbers to the entire countries of France, Spain, Belgium, UK, and the Netherlands whose CFR are all over 10%. The city of NYC alone, despite its density, is keeping people alive at a greater rate than entire western European countries even when you dilute their infection rates with the countryside. So despite overloading the healthcare system in our most densely populated city, we are still producing better results than entire developed countries.

As for quality of care, while the science of medicine is somewhat universal, the logistics of delivering that care is not. The US has the most number of critical care beds and ventilators per capita than any nation in the world. In addition to doctors, we utilize a system of mid-level providers such as Nurse practitioners (NPs) and Physicians Assistants (PAs). In addition, our nurses are more likely to be university educated than those in Europe. Despite our problems with poor general health and a population suffering from chronic illnesses, the numbers do show that we are superior in responding to an acute medical crisis than most of our developed nation peers.

At any rate, my point was to correct several statements that portrayed a picture of American carnage responding to Covid-19 and other criticisms of American healthcare when the data show that we are doing a better job than most of these western European nations. And I'll reiterate the need to pay attention to the data rather than the sensational images on your screens. That's what smart men do, use the data.

[QUOTE=Samplerr;2442123]I doubt that differences in death rates amongst developed nations can be explained to any great degree by differences in the quality of care. Infection rates and their control are arguably the greatest source of differences.

Higher population density in Western European cities facilitated a faster spread of the virus that frequently overwhelmed health infrastructure. The US has comparative advantages because of geography / population density, but where it doesn't you have similar problems to what we've witnessed in Italy, Spain etc. New York city is the textbook example, where around one third of the national death toll is generated by 2. 5% of the population.

Some of the developed nations that have to date fared best, such as Australian and New Zealand, have greatly benefitted from low population densities and their lack of neighbours. Certain Southeast Asian countries have been much better at controlling the spread of the virus from an early stage because their testing, tracking and isolating programs have been superior.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Samplerr;2442123]I doubt that differences in death rates amongst developed nations can be explained to any great degree by differences in the quality of care. Infection rates and their control are arguably the greatest source of differences.

Higher population density in Western European cities facilitated a faster spread of the virus that frequently overwhelmed health infrastructure. The US has comparative advantages because of geography / population density, but where it doesn't you have similar problems to what we've witnessed in Italy, Spain etc. New York city is the textbook example, where around one third of the national death toll is generated by 2. 5% of the population.

Some of the developed nations that have to date fared best, such as Australian and New Zealand, have greatly benefitted from low population densities and their lack of neighbours. Certain Southeast Asian countries have been much better at controlling the spread of the virus from an early stage because their testing, tracking and isolating programs have been superior.[/QUOTE]I agree, there are many quotes here saying that this or that is proof of the quality of certain health care systems. The prime determinants of a countries mortality rate per population, not per infection, is its underlying population density and the stage of the pandemic it is in.

Lower population densities certainly help, it is no wonder that New York is the worst afflicted area of the US. However the only way to assess a health care system is the mortality rate per those who are seriously afflicted with the disease, we don't really have such general statistics, but we can assess mortality rates per known infection.

And in that respect certain countries are doing quite poorly despite the futile assertions to the contrary here and from the numbers I have just seen on CNN, the US is not doing particularly badly but it is in an earlier phase of the pandemic, given the lag between infection time and death, the mortality rate will increase in the US.

There aren't really any effective treatments for this as far as I know, so it is really up to your immune system. The reason people are touting arguments like our health care system is much better, we will therefore handle it better or we are just better people is that they are deadly scared and nervous and hoping this is the case against a careful reading of the evidence.

Lower population densities coupled with a sensible lockdown are a definitive advantage, certainly Australia is far less vulnerable than India would be given its far lower density, but in this respect the US outside of its relatively dense urban areas, of which there are relatively few, would have a slower rate of progression than many European regions. Unless there is an effective treatment, no countries health care system will make much of a difference.

[QUOTE=Mursenary;2442049]New York City is doing terrible but New York City only represents less that 0.3 percent of the entire United States. As much as the media and Europeans talk terribly about our healthcare system, the fact remains, we are doing a much better job treating the sick during this pandemic than most European nations. That's a statistical fact.[/QUOTE]I do not get the impression that news outlets are using infection / death rates as a means to evaluate any one nation's level of medical care. If anything doctors and nurses in Wuhan, Lombardy, and NYC are seen as heroes. Nobody doubts their competency or blames them for high number of lives lost. All the blame usually goes to politicians who downplayed the threat and failed to prepare.

Milan politicians encouraging citizens to go out even after first 11 towns locked down: [URL]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/23/a-warning-to-europe-italy-struggle-to-convince-citizens-of-coronavirus-crisis[/URL].

Germany politicians have been lauded. Their first chain of infections came a month before Italy's. They effectively contained that first cluster which bought them crucial time to ramp up capacity (urgent care beds, testing kit, medical / emergency personnel capacity). [URL]https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-germany-defences-i/pass-the-salt-the-minute-details-that-helped-germany-build-virus-defences-idUSKCN21R1DB[/URL].

However, media from around the world is decrying the lack of universal health care in the USA, and questioning why poor Black and Hispanic communities are dying at disproportionate rates.

[QUOTE=Apollyon;2441993]How about renaming this thread as the Corona Covid-19 Lounge?[/QUOTE]Please Einstein tell us how your mongering is going.

[QUOTE=Apollyon;2441993]How about renaming this thread as the Corona Covid-19 Lounge?[/QUOTE]That would save a lot of time for anyone looking for information about P6 in Germany.

[QUOTE=Turgid;2442171]Please Einstein tell us how your mongering is going.[/QUOTE]My information is of course second hand but from reliable contacts, as I am not currently in Germany although I was there after some clubs had already closed. Some girls are still in Germany and are entertaining regulars, there are a few groups of girls operating like an FKK, but access is by invite only, and Chinese, and American visitors are specifically excluded.

Of course, Apollyon may have other thoughts

[QUOTE=Akibono;2441973]First, you should read an article about why it is dangerous and stupid to infect yourself. You are either selfish or expect the girl to be stupid. Second, just because a girl has some immunity does not make her safe in any way. If she goes with a asymptomatic punter before you, her contamination will easily infect you. This virus is highly transmissible. Also, if she is immune, she has no incentive to adequately disinfect herself before you. In most clubs, the girls don't even fully shower between clients. Don't dream. Follow the science. If you want to partake, pay up and go with an escort that is not seeing 10+ people a day in a highly contaminated environment. Don't this that towel that is put on the bed will protect you from that infected punter before you. To be safe, everyone entering the club must pass a test. Do you think that is likely?[/QUOTE]Sharks took temperature on 13/14 March just before closed, Oase didn't control, I think also no control in NRW. Pretty sure virus was already in FKK land, with so many guys and girls, still few Asians seen, but in brothels, we share some of our diseases, even using condom, better to be aware, risky playfield and can also be for relatives, I think about chlamydia for wife, or HIV from AO, a reason for the new law in Germany to protect families. About future and risks in these places, I think better to have gotten and recovered from, then no more risk about it, when quite impossible with so many guys and girls from all over the world, virus don t play in FKK land. Better to know for risky health people, but it could already be risky before virus, not only this virus in FKK land.

[QUOTE=Optimist;2442187]My information is of course second hand but from reliable contacts, as I am not currently in Germany although I was there after some clubs had already closed. Some girls are still in Germany and are entertaining regulars, there are a few groups of girls operating like an FKK, but access is by invite only, and Chinese, and American visitors are specifically excluded.

Of course, Apollyon may have other thoughts[/QUOTE]Business in cars? In hotel? If still open in Germany, closed in France. My contact at GT is off now. My contact at Globe is at home. Both made big money since years, so they can take a rest for months.

[QUOTE=Optimist;2442187]My information is of course second hand but from reliable contacts, as I am not currently in Germany although I was there after some clubs had already closed. Some girls are still in Germany and are entertaining regulars, there are a few groups of girls operating like an FKK, but access is by invite only, and Chinese, and American visitors are specifically excluded.

Of course, Apollyon may have other thoughts[/QUOTE]It seems to me that many mongers believe they are immune to Corona. It seems as if they would go back to their mongering ways today if they could if the governments allowed it. Social distancing and quarantine are mere nuisance forced on them in this narrative.

I disagree. I am not in the risky age groups and I do not have any Existing conditions that predispose me to the virus. I still am observing the distancing rules strictly and Staying home. I'm lucky that I can wfh w / o loss of any income, and the biggest misfortune that has befallen on me is the loss of a huge amount in stock markets but I can weather it.

Sugar babes are quite desperate now. I see many pretty new girls on the site, and most are out of jobs and have no income. If my intention was to just fuck a girl, it is easier to do so locally, and prices are even cheaper than FKKs. I'm not meeting them out of caution and for my own safety. I am surprised that mongers are desperate to fuck ex FKK girls in Germany whichever way they can. If you are willing to do so, you might as well eschew all distancing rules and try to build your own personal dose of herd immunity.

[QUOTE=DeltaIndigo;2442158]Lower population densities certainly help, it is no wonder that New York is the worst afflicted area of the US. However the only way to assess a health care system is the mortality rate per those who are seriously afflicted with the d
isease, we don't really have such general statistics, but we can assess mortality rates per known infection.

And in that respect certain countries are doing quite poorly despite the futile assertions to the contrary here and from the numbers I have just seen on CNN, the US is not doing particularly badly but it is in an earlier phase of the pandemic, given the lag between infection time and death, the mortality rate will increase in the US.

There aren't really any effective treatments for this as far as I know, so it is really up to your immune system. The reason people are touting arguments like our health care system is much better, we will therefore handle it better or we are just better people is that they are deadly scared and nervous and hoping this is the case against a careful reading of the evidence.[/QUOTE]Yet New York City mortality rates are still lower than these "hard hit" nations. NYC is one of the most densely populated cities, if not the most in the western world, and the death rate of those infected is still lower than entire countries even accounting for the countryside population in those nations. As of today, 5800 deaths in New York county with 92,000 cases. That's 6.7%. Several European countries are sitting at a 10% case fatality rate. At this point, the US is far enough along the timeline to have peaked. Intubation rates and hospitalization rates have gone down in the past 3 days in New York. Other areas will see a surge but it will not be as bad as New York. The US is already on the plateau phase and while deaths will continue, death rates will decrease even more.

Regarding treatment, I transitioned to the ICU last week and effective protocols have already been established. Medicine is more complex than the public who thinks that a magic medication will come "cure" this. As with all advanced viral respiratory illnesses, symptom management is the treatment. Maintaining adequate ventilation whether it is via ventilator or a simple nasal cannula, sepsis control through blood pressure management and intravenous hydration, and some antibiotics to address secondary infections. That's all there is to do. Some antiviral therapies may help but that is hardly concretely established in the literature.

[QUOTE=Optimist;2442187]My information is of course second hand but from reliable contacts, as I am not currently in Germany although I was there after some clubs had already closed. Some girls are still in Germany and are entertaining regulars, there are a few groups of girls operating like an FKK, but access is by invite only, and Chinese, and American visitors are specifically excluded.[/QUOTE]If you believe their statistics Chinese should be one of the least likely nationalities to have it at the moment. Since yesterday doubt any Chinese or Americans are flying into Germany given the 2 weeks quarantine. I asked some girls at Sharks if they ever saw customers outside of the club some said yes, some said never. I imagine the girls that said never are relaxing that policy at the moment.

A mini private FKK sounds intriguing, wish I was in lockdown in Germany, not just for that reason. Sounds like they are streets ahead of other countries with their testing and availability of hospital beds.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2442051]I know, we may have second wave even next year like Spanish flu, it killed more people with second wave. This won't be over till vaccines are invented, and even then virus can come back with different form like influenza is, that is why we get shot with updated vaccines every year.

Well, then why did so many nations around globe had destruction of medical system to the extent they did not even have masks or gloves or life supporting equipment were so short of needs that doctors had to choose who will get the life supporting system etc.

Look, I hope world especially human are wonderful as we like to believe, west love idealism. Japan like to believe in idealism too, we like it, but we stick to reality and are more practical. Meaning Japan think like this, if we say we are testing people so easily then mass public will rush to hospital to test themselves especially with japans good insurance policy where most things are covered and where people love going to hospital as we are health hygiene conscious race, so this will create many problems including cluster infections at hospital while waiting and even we test and tests results are positive, we do not want to treat mild symptom patients with medicine like avigan because we rather to keep them to fix it with their immune system first, either way there will be panic plus the cluster infections, so what we focused on is to make people to stay home not to gather and for those who need to go out side go out side if it is related to work or buying food.

It is different way of approaching it and japans way of not being idealistic and not trusting what mass public could do is different. We know what will happen if we begin testing people as they request based on mild symptom. And hey, it is Japanese mass public we are talking here, based on truth, we have reputation of being very polite, organized and disciplined than other nations, but even then we were careful to how mass public may react if people began going to hospitals. As a result, we do not have collapse of hospital here and we still have masks and gloves at hospital, in pharmacy, we stopped selling it as one request, but one can only buy certain amount per day and is hard to find now. But fed did give us 2 recyclable masks per person in Japan, which apparently cost 467 million USD to distribute this 2 masks, which could have made apparently 5 million pills of Avigan, which we want to make just in case there is over shooting of allowed infection rates testing. There is easy testing kits available, but it is not that accurate apparently, either way we do not test everyone at hospital..[/QUOTE]To your question why did some countries have such poor medical systems and why were they shown in such poor light by Corona?

The answer is a combination. Some countries are poor and didn't have sufficient funds to build up a good medical system. This was probably true in China and will be true in India and Africa as Pistons said a few times.

Some countries do have money but didn't spend sufficiently on healthcare. Also, what they had spent on matters too. US spends 20% of GDP on healthcare but there are large gaps. We have a public / private payer system as compared to mostly public payer in other countries. So, for example we pay a higher amount for the same drug than in most other countries. We have some extremely sophisticated things in US but some hospitals may not have sufficient PPE.

More importantly, when a sudden spike happens in number of cases, any local hospital can be overwhelmed. This can be a local issue. US a whole may have sufficient number of ventilators etc but if you have too many cases in NYC and too few cases in Florida, You can not match supply with demand efficiently because these are sick patients and cannot flows to other areas of the country.

I agree with someone who said this before. Poly perhaps. The rich countries will be fine. We will beat this. Yes, a lot of people are dead and many will lose jobs and loss of networth due to stock market but we will generally be fine. I am not so sure about poor countries. Many millions may die in those countries.

[QUOTE=Optimist;2442187]My information is of course second hand but from reliable contacts, as I am not currently in Germany although I was there after some clubs had already closed. Some girls are still in Germany and are entertaining regulars, there are a few groups of girls operating like an FKK, but access is by invite only, and Chinese, and American visitors are specifically excluded.

Of course, Apollyon may have other thoughts[/QUOTE]I doubt we'll hear from those regulars.

In my last few visits to Sharks ending mid March I collected contact info from some girls who were willing to come to my hotel. Most of the girls agreed to E150/1 hour which was fine by me. Any girls who asked for significantly more I discarded. One Latvian who I banged for E50/1/2 hour told me with a straight face E500/1 hour. In the end I decided to get the hell out of Germany. Good thing I did I might have been stuck there and accumulated quite a bill.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2442168]I do not get the impression that news outlets are using infection / death rates as a means to evaluate any one nation's level of medical care. If anything doctors and nurses in Wuhan, Lombardy, and NYC are seen as heroes. Nobody doubts their competency or blames them for high number of lives lost. All the blame usually goes to politicians who downplayed the threat and failed to prepare.

However, media from around the world is decrying the lack of universal health care in the USA, and questioning why poor Black and Hispanic communities are dying at disproportionate rates.[/QUOTE]Regarding health systems, not the media, individual posters on this forum.

The media is however guilty of portraying carnage and woe and using the data deceptively which have been regurgitated here. Regarding the USA, I have rarely seen the mainstream video media talk about death rates, only raw misleading numbers.

Regarding minority death, oh hell, I work in healthcare and see the reason first hand. First, only 9% of people in America do not have access to health insurance, keep that in mind. 91% have coverage, that may not be universal but it sure is probably much higher than the number you were thinking. The difference between black and white insurance coverage is only 2-3%, that does not explain the current disparity in covid mortality. You know what does? Cultural behavior leading to comorbidities. Healthy diet and fitness just isn't as integrated into the black and brown cultures. Their lower economic situations does not encourage physical health to be a main priority. Access to primary care may be a factor, but hardly the major player here.

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2442265]To your question why did some countries have such poor medical systems and why were they shown in such poor light by Corona?

The answer is a combination. Some countries are poor and didn't have sufficient funds to build up a good medical system. This was probably true in China and will be true in India and Africa as Pistons said a few times.

Some countries do have money but didn't spend sufficiently on healthcare. Also, what they had spent on matters too. US spends 20% of GDP on healthcare but there are large gaps. We have a public / private payer system as compared to mostly public payer in other countries. So, for example we pay a higher amount for the same drug than in most other countries. We have some extremely sophisticated things in US but some hospitals may not have sufficient PPE.

More importantly, when a sudden spike happens in number of cases, any local hospital can be overwhelmed. This can be a local issue. US a whole may have sufficient number of ventilators etc but if you have too many cases in NYC and too few cases in Florida, You can not match supply with demand efficiently because these are sick patients and cannot flows to other areas of the country.

I agree with someone who said this before. Poly perhaps. The rich countries will be fine. We will beat this. Yes, a lot of people are dead and many will lose jobs and loss of networth due to stock market but we will generally be fine. I am not so sure about poor countries. Many millions may die in those countries.[/QUOTE]France could move sick people when they were a bit better and could be moved, to other parts of France, or to Germany, Luxemburg or Switzerland. No states nor landers in France, easier to move. But big thanks to these 3 countries to help us a lot, to have free beds for worst cases. Average time in intensive care is 20 days, blocking bed and medical equipment, needing 5 medical staff to turn on back or belly, to help to recover lungs, and so many died, of course only worst cases were under intensive care.

Seem virus now spreading in islands towns in Japan, good luck to them, when France and Italy seem to be a bit better, after 9 black days in France. But Spain and now UK are in big trouble, still US also.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2442168]I do not get the impression that news outlets are using infection / death rates as a means to evaluate any one nation's level of medical care. If anything doctors and nurses in Wuhan, Lombardy, and NYC are seen as heroes. Nobody doubts their competency or blames them for high number of lives lost. All the blame usually goes to politicians who downplayed the threat and failed to prepare.

Milan politicians encouraging citizens to go out even after first 11 towns locked down: [URL]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/23/a-warning-to-europe-italy-struggle-to-convince-citizens-of-coronavirus-crisis[/URL].

Germany politicians have been lauded. Their first chain of infections came a month before Italy's. They effectively contained that first cluster which bought them crucial time to ramp up capacity (urgent care beds, testing kit, medical / emergency personnel capacity). [URL]https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-germany-defences-i/pass-the-salt-the-minute-details-that-helped-germany-build-virus-defences-idUSKCN21R1DB[/URL].

However, media from around the world is decrying the lack of universal health care in the USA, and questioning why poor Black and Hispanic communities are dying at disproportionate rates.[/QUOTE]Germany has done a really good job indeed. The projected total deaths in Germany are slightly more than 7,000 by Aug. The other big countries in Eu have the following #.

UK 37,000+.

Spain 18,000+.

Italy 20,000+.

France 15,000+.

Italy, the much maligned country, has come back very strong. Models are forecasting very few deaths after May 1.

Sweden is at 13,000+ and NL is at 18,000+. Those are very high numbers for small populations. Not good management, and probably because they waited too long to lock down.

USA itself is projected to have 61,000+ deaths. Unfortunately, NYC accounted for so many of US deaths, and will by the time this ends.

As for excessive suffering in minority populations, it is an unfortunate fact. We do not have universal free healthcare as they do in Europe, and hence death and suffering will follow income and wealth axis in USA, at least at a broad statistical level.

Our beloved Romania is supposedly doing a fabulous job. Just 700+ total deaths by Aug. Bulgaria is even better at 225+. Poland is at 2300+. I guess they locked down when the rest of Europe and US did, and they didn't have too many people traveling back and forth between them to Italy or Asia.

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2442265]To your question why did some countries have such poor medical systems and why were they shown in such poor light by Corona?

The answer is a combination. Some countries are poor and didn't have sufficient funds to build up a good medical system. This was probably true in China and will be true in India and Africa as Pistons said a few times.

Some countries do have money but didn't spend sufficiently on healthcare. Also, what they had spent on matters too. US spends 20% of GDP on healthcare but there are large gaps. We have a public / private payer system as compared to mostly public payer in other countries. So, for example we pay a higher amount for the same drug than in most other countries. We have some extremely sophisticated things in US but some hospitals may not have sufficient PPE.

More importantly, when a sudden spike happens in number of cases, any local hospital can be overwhelmed. This can be a local issue. US a whole may have sufficient number of ventilators etc but if you have too many cases in NYC and too few cases in Florida, You can not match supply with demand efficiently because these are sick patients and cannot flows to other areas of the country.

I agree with someone who said this before. Poly perhaps. The rich countries will be fine. We will beat this. Yes, a lot of people are dead and many will lose jobs and loss of networth due to stock market but we will generally be fine. I am not so sure about poor countries. Many millions may die in those countries.[/QUOTE]I think we should stop talking about issue that cannot be solved in sex forum LOL, so let keep it last.

Some nations are not honest, good example is China. It is big nation now thanks to Japan for giving them technology and money via ODA to begin with if you know some politic (google ODA), but they are not honest government there, this also goes to Russia too, and also south Korea. In political slug, we call it the red team.

As for poor nations, virus has not got there yet, it is still spreading, and we begin to see it in Africa just recently like it took some time to get to Europe and USA and during that time Japan was giving warning because we are the first G7 nation with one of the most advance medical nation with many biggest medical companies in the world to get it as China is right next to us, but Europe and USA then thought it is a problem on other side of the world and they did not even begin preparing life support equipment production or even masks.

Also poor nations do not even have ways to test it, so they won't even know and if you can do mild to strong or even total lock down now, it is better not to test it. Testing do not do much beside sending them home or give them Avigan etc if they have enough Avigan, which nobody have as of now, we are making it now and it will be ready to ship out to 20 nations in May, even then you should save them for rainy days. You do not want cluster infections at hospital and collapse of medical system like what happened in USA and Europe. There was no point for those people to rush to hospital as they could not do much beside help those are in real need, which they could not due to over capacity of patients who do not need to be there.

Lock down is easier for poor nations as they do not have much responsibilities as other big nations. I already explained about mega companies in Japan, they cannot do total lock down, it is not about money or greed, it is safety net for millions of people around world in financial way, they need to be paid even they are staying home or they will die in different ways than corona and that is actually more dangerous. Plus we believe in balanced lock down, not total lock down, I mean look at nations with total lock down, what happened to them.

We are expecting more worst period to come, so we are preparing for it now, but it won't stand if this goes on for long time. But we know the equipment we have to produce and we have medical companies like Omron, cannon etc producing it and other companies like Toyota etc. Have restructured their factories producing it as well.

Problem is people in Japan, we have about 70 percent decrease in movement of people in Tokyo according to google and yahoo, but we are still not scared enough, we live rather normally still. Most shops, department stores, cinemas, gym etc are closed though, but many restaurants are open. So we are definitely not scared enough.

What did scary now is that, we saw a tiger and a cat infected, one in New York and one in Brussels I think, thankfully in zoo, not in wild, but if this spread to other animals to animals then to humans, it will be hard to control it.

Either way, it won't be fixed on sex forum and look Japan is doing fine as usual and we are the one of the hope here for making vaccines as there are only few countries who can do this and western media has to do their jobs, but they should worry more about some of western nations situation where death rates are crazy, people are panic to the extent fighting for toilet paper, buying guns, digging mass grave among other chaos that is very third world like.

Anyways, G7 nations at least are honest countries enough and they won't lie the figure as it has tremendous damage if they do in other field, but some nations do not test on purpose, it is called strategy, and also again there is no point in testing mild symptom people because after testing they be told to go home and rest, eat well, so they just goto hospital to help destroy medical system and get infected in many cases.

Let hope this will be gone soon and there won't be second wave like Spanish flu, which killed more people with second wave. And I am glad FKK did not have any cluster infection because if FKK did, they will be attacked by politicians as axes of all evil. We do not need another reason for them to take away our BBBJ LOL!

[QUOTE=Mursenary;2442291]Regarding health systems, not the media, individual posters on this forum.

The media is however guilty of portraying carnage and woe and using the data deceptively which have been regurgitated here. Regarding the USA, I have rarely seen the mainstream video media talk about death rates, only raw misleading numbers.

Regarding minority death, oh hell, I work in healthcare and see the reason first hand. First, only 9% of people in America do not have access to health insurance, keep that in mind. 91% have coverage, that may not be universal but it sure is probably much higher than the number you were thinking. The difference between black and white insurance coverage is only 2-3%, that does not explain the current disparity in covid mortality. You know what does? Cultural behavior leading to comorbidities. Healthy diet and fitness just isn't as integrated into the black and brown cultures. Their lower economic situations does not encourage physical health to be a main priority. Access to primary care may be a factor, but hardly the major player here.[/QUOTE]Isn't 9% = 30 millions people, half France, who can't afford healthcare, 11 millions illegal, Hart island for poor when dying, but at least, compare to Asia, we have US figures. Only facts, and my country is also not perfect, but people have healthcare, I pay tax for this, even for foreigners to have healthcare in France.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2442327]Isn't 9% = 30 millions people, half France, who can't afford healthcare, 11 millions illegal, Hart island for poor when dying, but at least, compare to Asia, we have US figures. Only facts, and my country is also not perfect, but people have healthcare, I pay tax for this, even for foreigners to have healthcare in France.[/QUOTE]You are right, it is 30 million. Yet for some reason, we are still keeping people alive in NYC more efficiently than in all of France, Spain, Italy, UK, Belgium, and the Netherlands during this time of crisis.

As for the poor, we have Medicaid for the truly poor. The poor have health care. The people who are without, are the lower middle class. But that is by choice as they can pay privately. Since the US has a tax rate is 10-20 percent lower than the average European nation, we can use that money to pay for private health insurance, but people choose not to. That is the beauty of America, you have the freedom to do what you want. If you choose to not use the 10-20% tax savings and choose to spend it on something else, that is your individual freedom. Unlike Europe where you are forced by your government, we allow people to choice to make bad decisions. But they have to live with that decision. And again, despite these bad choices, our system will still make sure to save your life in a time of emergency. Hence, the superior survival rate during this COVID crisis. Facts.

[QUOTE=ShooBree;2441955]The coronavirus is a giant problem for the Swedish economy, otherwise not so much. I know that many people in other countries wishes that they had the freedom that we have in Sweden.

The government haven't done much and the changes they are contemplating are small stuff like closing down certain bars and restaurants. As I, unlike you, live in Sweden and actually read and follow the news closely, I can safely say that you don't know what you are talking about.

Sweden's infected rate per million is lower than the one of Norway, Denmark, Israel, Austria and the list goes on, so please refrain from spreading disinformation.[/QUOTE]Who cares if you live in Sweden? I use to work and live in Sweden for a number of years in Malmo and other areas of the country. I traveled to over 100+ countries for work and play. Not sure why you would imply living in Sweden means you know more than others, you're a monger, not a politician.

My profession as a health scientist would make me well aware of COVID-19 and the effects on the economy and the people. Despite Sweden's apprehension, I can tell you that they could have better managed the crisis. Please refrain from using your citizenship as an automatic "we should trust you". Clearly, many forum members think otherwise.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2442327]Isn't 9% = 30 millions people, half France, who can't afford healthcare, 11 millions illegal, Hart island for poor when dying, but at least, compare to Asia, we have US figures. Only facts, and my country is also not perfect, but people have healthcare, I pay tax for this, even for foreigners to have healthcare in France.[/QUOTE]The best health care one can receive is called BBBJ for the rate of 50 euro per 30 min LOL!

German FKK BBBJ is the best revitalization therapy for your soul LOL! You can even choose your international nurse who provide you BBBJ therapy as you wish LOL!

Clinic FKK LOL!

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2442312]Germany has done a really good job indeed. The projected total deaths in Germany are slightly more than 7,000 by Aug. The other big countries in Eu have the following #.

UK 37,000+.

Spain 18,000+.

Italy 20,000+.

France 15,000+.

Italy, the much maligned country, has come back very strong. Models are forecasting very few deaths after May 1.

Sweden is at 13,000+ and NL is at 18,000+. Those are very high numbers for small populations. Not good management, and probably because they waited too long to lock down.

USA itself is projected to have 61,000+ deaths. Unfortunately, NYC accounted for so many of US deaths, and will by the time this ends.

As for excessive suffering in minority populations, it is an unfortunate fact. We do not have universal free healthcare as they do in Europe, and hence death and suffering will follow income and wealth axis in USA, at least at a broad statistical level..[/QUOTE]In Italy 25000 died because of the influenza during the 2015/2016 winter season, no lockdowns then. The focus on deaths made us destroy the economy and we might walk into a new Great Depression. Maybe it would have been better to let nature take it's course as we always have done before in history.

[QUOTE=AZNMonger;2442394]Not sure why you would imply living in Sweden means you know more than others, you're a monger, not a politician.[/QUOTE]I agree that one does not necessarily know more than somebody else simply by virtue of their nationality. But, I wish that mongers would stop putting other mongers down precisely because they are mongers (seeing a lot of this lately in several threads). Conversely, somebody doesn't necessarily know less than somebody else simply by virtue of the fact of being a monger. There are many well-traveled, well-educated, intelligent people here from literally all walks of life. I would even bet a few politicians! So, when we have a disagreement with one of our mongering brothers, let us not criticize them for being a monger, and then use that as a basis to discount the legitimacy and validity of what they say. After all. Remember. If you're here, then you are a monger too! So if you show disdain towards somebody else for being a monger, then you show disdain for yourself.

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2442312]Germany has done a really good job indeed. The projected total deaths in Germany are slightly more than 7,000 by Aug. The other big countries in Eu have the following #.

UK 37,000+.

Spain 18,000+.

Italy 20,000+.

France 15,000+.

Italy, the much maligned country, has come back very strong. Models are forecasting very few deaths after May 1.

Sweden is at 13,000+ and NL is at 18,000+. Those are very high numbers for small populations. Not good management, and probably because they waited too long to lock down..[/QUOTE]I don't know where you get these figures, but France was already nearly 14.000 deaths yesterday which was first not too many deaths day in this so black week, and when only really sick, but all very sick were treated in our hospitals with highest level equipment, but many couldn't be saved, even under intensive care, and I'm afraid Pistons was right, when I know France medical level, I never thought we would have 20.000 deaths, we lost this war, too many deaths, even much less than 1 % risk if you are less than 70 yo, not fat nor diabetic and no lungs nor heart problems, nor cancer. Confined which will be extended over 15 April, is told to save less than 3000 life since 17 March. Italy extend to 3 May. Spain which is down under think to close borders versus Summer tourism, ready to kill their economy. When UK and US don t really respect confined, when french police give penalties, would be really interesting to see real results for NL and Sweden with no confined, even of course can t compare with Italy and Spain where people live with old parents and killed them loving them. Anyway, french thank their doctors, I don t think many of those who were not saved, could have been, when we even used chloroquine, with few deaths from heart problems. Big shame for some who tried to make money, stealing masks, ventilators, those who write or tell to nurses or firemen or hospitals cleaner to stay away, to leave flat or building, because they are at risk about virus. Wish these shameful will be prosecuted and wish they won t need staff they insult because they don t deserve these insulted staff take risks for them. Some medical or safety staff died in this sad war.

[QUOTE=AZNMonger;2442394]Who cares if you live in Sweden? I use to work and live in Sweden for a number of years in Malmo and other areas of the country. I traveled to over 100+ countries for work and play. Not sure why you would imply living in Sweden means you know more than others, you're a monger, not a politician.

My profession as a health scientist would make me well aware of COVID-19 and the effects on the economy and the people. Despite Sweden's apprehension, I can tell you that they could have better managed the crisis. Please refrain from using your citizenship as an automatic "we should trust you". Clearly, many forum members think otherwise.[/QUOTE]You are delusional if you don't understand that I know much more than you do about the situation in Sweden because, unlike you, I live in Sweden and follow the national news closely. You are just a monger.

[QUOTE=Mursenary;2442233]Yet New York City mortality rates are still lower than these "hard hit" nations. NYC is one of the most densely populated cities, if not the most in the western world, and the death rate of those infected is still lower than entire countries even accounting for the countryside population in those nations. As of today, 5800 deaths in New York county with 92,000 cases. That's 6.7%. Several European countries are sitting at a 10% case fatality rate. At this point, the US is far enough along the timeline to have peaked. Intubation rates and hospitalization rates have gone down in the past 3 days in New York. Other areas will see a surge but it will not be as bad as New York. The US is already on the plateau phase and while deaths will continue, death rates will decrease even more.

Regarding treatment, I transitioned to the ICU last week and effective protocols have already been established. Medicine is more complex than the public who thinks that a magic medication will come "cure" this. As with all advanced viral respiratory illnesses, symptom management is the treatment. Maintaining adequate ventilation whether it is via ventilator or a simple nasal cannula, sepsis control through blood pressure management and intravenous hydration, and some antibiotics to address secondary infections. That's all there is to do. Some antiviral therapies may help but that is hardly concretely established in the literature.[/QUOTE]You certainly know more about the medical and scientific aspects of this than I do and I think almost anyone else here. So you think it has peaked in the US, I thought that most models had shown otherwise, it might very well have peaked in NYC, but I had thought in the US certainly not, but at most the US is only a few weeks behind Europe anyhow.

All I was doing was interpreting the statistical data and trying to explain it. Most of this is not well understand by quite a few people and their own prejudices factor into their assertions.

What you explained about the implications of treating this illness were illuminating to me, no one, including the news has explained it as well as you have. Thank you for that.

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2442312]Germany has done a really good job indeed. The projected total deaths in Germany are slightly more than 7,000 by Aug. The other big countries in Eu have the following #.

UK 37,000+.

Spain 18,000+.

Italy 20,000+.

France 15,000+.

Italy, the much maligned country, has come back very strong. Models are forecasting very few deaths after May 1.

Sweden is at 13,000+ and NL is at 18,000+. Those are very high numbers for small populations. Not good management, and probably because they waited too long to lock down.

USA itself is projected to have 61,000+ deaths. Unfortunately, NYC accounted for so many of US deaths, and will by the time this ends.

As for excessive suffering in minority populations, it is an unfortunate fact. We do not have universal free healthcare as they do in Europe, and hence death and suffering will follow income and wealth axis in USA, at least at a broad statistical level.

Our beloved Romania is supposedly doing a fabulous job. Just 700+ total deaths by Aug. Bulgaria is even better at 225+. Poland is at 2300+. I guess they locked down when the rest of Europe and US did, and they didn't have too many people traveling back and forth between them to Italy or Asia.[/QUOTE]These projections are in line with what I would expect observing the statistical data thus far. However some of these figures, Bulgaria, Romania and even Poland are highly suspect, the quality of data varies from country to country and the political environment can influence the quality of data in certain countries far more than others, ie the figures in Romania and Bulgaria would be even more suspect due to this.

In Poland, as of now they are still proceeding with presidential elections despite the health implications since the ruling party thinks it can win easily. Some modelling has shown that holding these presidential elections even with many precautions will lead to a further 100,000 infections. I think if these elections go ahead, then the numbers for Poland could spiral. Also many of the most enthusiastic supporters of the ruling party are old people who will come out to vote and younger supporters of the opposition will stay home. That means a disproportionate share of the voting public on election day are vulnerable, what will that do to the death toll?

The one place where this could explode all over the place due to the late lockdown is Metropolitan Tokyo, I really hope not, since I have a vulnerable cousin living there, however this could eclipse the outbreak in NYC.

[QUOTE=Mursenary;2442291]Regarding minority death, oh hell, I work in healthcare and see the reason first hand. First, only 9% of people in America do not have access to health insurance, keep that in mind. 91% have coverage, that may not be universal but it sure is probably much higher than the number you were thinking. The difference between black and white insurance coverage is only 2-3%, that does not explain the current disparity in covid mortality.[/QUOTE]The 2-3 percent difference in coverage you speak of is maybe less problematic under normal circumstances. But when there is a respiratory illness that is highly contagious, these untreated and undiagnosed are going to pose a danger to everybody around them. Illegal brown immigrants are not going to seek treatment for fear of being deported. Also if someone does not receive pay while they are sick (like are beloved WGs), they are more likely to go to work even if they have symptoms. All these factors could accelerate the spread.

[QUOTE=Mursenary;2442291]You know what does? Cultural behavior leading to comorbidities. Healthy diet and fitness just isn't as integrated into the black and brown cultures. Their lower economic situations does not encourage physical health to be a main priority. Access to primary care may be a factor, but hardly the major player here.[/QUOTE]Yes perhaps poor diet and fitness is 80 percent of the problem, but the liberals and academics believe that de-facto segregation plays a role in economic outcomes which in turn affects both lifestyle and health outcomes. According to Harvard School of Public Health journal back in 2016:

[QUOTE]where we live determines opportunities to access high-quality education, employment, housing, fresh foods or outdoor space all contributors to our health.

"Health builds from where we live, learn, work and play and only secondarily in the doctors office.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/health-disparities-between-blacks-and-whites-run-deep/.[/QUOTE]Being poor, being Black, living in a dangerous community, and seeing negative outcomes for yourself, your friends, and your family affects stress levels:

[QUOTE]In fact, merely being black in America triggers exposure to stressors linked to premature biological aging. Research indicates that blacks get sick at younger ages, have more severe illnesses and are aging, biologically, more rapidly than whites. Scientists call this the "weathering effect," or the result of cumulative stress.

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/policy-dose/articles/2016-04-14/theres-a-huge-health-equity-gap-between-whites-and-minorities.[/QUOTE]Black and brown communities are situated in areas with high air and toxic pollution. Black children are 500 times more likely to die from asthma:

[QUOTE]These negative health effects just get worse as you get older. Throughout your life, you're accumulating air pollution exposures, says Rachel Nethery, a biostatistician at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health who co-authored the new pre-print. Air pollution exposure in young adults has been linked to abnormal changes in the blood, which can lead to heart disease and high blood pressure later in life, both risk factors for severe and fatal Covid-19 cases. In adults, this has been closely associated with cardiovascular disease and diabetes.

https://www.vox.com/2020/4/11/21217040/coronavirus-in-us-air-pollution-asthma-black-americans
[/QUOTE]

I am kinda going against the flood here and suspect Sweden did the right move in not closing down as much. The only thing they should have done better was to test far more than they have. You cannot test enough in order to get real data.

Because the only way I see it now, is that we have to burn this thing out. Although not destroying the health system, we need to keep it at max capacity in order to burn it out as quickly as possible. Otherwise, the virus will just mutate thousands of times before we reach herd imunity. And the more it mutates, the harder it will get to reach herd imunity. And also, the less effective vaccines will become. Actually, vaccines will be 99.99% useless from day one is my prediction due to the mutation rates some scientists are seing.

So basically, people will just have to die. A lot of people. It is the only way for society to get back to where we were. Otherwise, we'll just be herds in a cage for the rest of our lives. And hell, even Netflix, HBO and others are putting TV shows on hold, and gyms are closed. So this is getting boring fast.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2442318]I think we should stop talking about issue that cannot be solved in sex forum LOL, so let keep it last.

Some nations are not honest, good example is China. It is big nation now thanks to Japan for giving them technology and money via ODA to begin with if you know some politic (google ODA), but they are not honest government there, this also goes to Russia too, and also south Korea. In political slug, we call it the red team.

As for poor nations, virus has not got there yet, it is still spreading, and we begin to see it in Africa just recently like it took some time to get to Europe and USA and during that time Japan was giving warning because we are the first G7 nation with one of the most advance medical nation with many biggest medical companies in the world to get it as China is right next to us, but Europe and USA then thought it is a problem on other side of the world and they did not even begin preparing life support equipment production or even masks.

Also poor nations do not even have ways to test it, so they won't even know and if you can do mild to strong or even total lock down now, it is better not to test it. Testing do not do much beside sending them home or give them Avigan etc if they have enough Avigan, which nobody have as of now, we are making it now and it will be ready to ship out to 20 nations in May, even then you should save them for rainy days. You do not want cluster infections at hospital and collapse of medical system like what happened in USA and Europe. There was no point for those people to rush to hospital as they could not do much beside help those are in real need, which they could not due to over capacity of patients who do not need to be there..[/QUOTE]Can you believe virus was not in FKK land, quite impossible it was not, even when was taken temperature at Sharks entry, but most infected don t have any symptom. Isn't also virus spreading in Japan islands towns? And I'm pretty sure virus will be in FKK land when will reopen, with so many guys and girls from all over the world. Anyway, interesting to have Japanese opinion about other Asian countries, but don t You mean North Korea for red, or really South? Russia is not so red anymore, but for sure not land of truth nor real freedom, not yet, not under Putin. Ana would shout about me if she heard me saying this about Putin who gave pride again to Russians from Moscow or Peter or Sotchi, when Russia was falling after the wall. Romania fell, ex DDR was lucky to become Germany.

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2442312]Germany has done a really good job indeed. The projected total deaths in Germany are slightly more than 7,000 by Aug. The other big countries in Eu have the following #.

UK 37,000+.

Spain 18,000+.

Italy 20,000+.

France 15,000+.

Italy, the much maligned country, has come back very strong. Models are forecasting very few deaths after May 1.

Sweden is at 13,000+ and NL is at 18,000+. Those are very high numbers for small populations. Not good management, and probably because they waited too long to lock down..[/QUOTE]So you missed out on this article?

[URL]https://www.ecodibergamo.it/stories/bergamo-citta/coronavirus-the-real-death-tool-4500-victims-in-one-month-in-the-province-of_1347414_11/[/URL]

That is for Italy, a country which has been fairly good at testing people. With 15.935 tests per 1 M. In Comparison, Germany has 15.730 tests per 1 M. So Italian numbers are more accurate than German numbers. And in Italy, it seems they are only managing to pick up on about 44% of deaths from the virus.

New York for comparison tests 22.478 per 1 M, so figures there are probably a bit more precise. But Spain, UK and France has been very sloppy, so you can probably multiply it by 3-4 in those countries. Meaning for example France now has probably over 50 000 deaths. Hi Sirioja, remembers what we discussed a few days ago?

But of course, make your own number calculations. I will stick to mine. For India for example, with just 137 tests per 1 M, I suspect the real figures can probably be multiplied by 100-150. And Brazil is underepoting by 50+ times. And Africa pretty much doesn't have any testing capacity worth recognizing at all. But US figures shows Africans are 6 times more at risk than whites. Questions is just is that is due to the reasons the officials claim. I personally think the genetic factors play a larger role in all of this, so Africa will be hit harder than anywhere else. They will also face the same 'Hunger Games' scenario India is experiencing. Further increasing the death numbers from other non-corona related deaths. So there are no epicenters any longer its pretty global.

[QUOTE=DeltaIndigo;2442461]You certainly know more about the medical and scientific aspects of this than I do and I think almost anyone else here. So you think it has peaked in the US, I thought that most models had shown otherwise, it might very well have peaked in NYC, but I had thought in the US certainly not, but at most the US is only a few weeks behind Europe anyhow.

All I was doing was interpreting the statistical data and trying to explain it. Most of this is not well understand by quite a few people and their own prejudices factor into their assertions.

What you explained about the implications of the treating this illness were illuminating to me, no one, including the news has explained it as well as you have. Thank you for that.[/QUOTE]Information and I think quite reliable, give more than 8000 deaths for only NY, and about 2000 deaths per day since more than one week in whole US, with more deaths among poor black and Latina people than rich white, even many obesity and diabetic. Doctors and same in France are about how many infected, but we can't really know because most numerous have no symptom, but a French investigation tell 1 infected may give to 3 people who may give to 9 , spreading. From my job, and how I was often asked: You can break, You can clean, you can do as you need, but get result we order you. So I judge how many deaths compare to population. I'm very happy for the so many infected who have no problem, even I know they are dangerous to spread. Of course, no game to compare Italy or Spain with Sweden. I just often take US example because I find interesting how the most powerful country which thought to be above virus, fell on so big trouble. I doubt Trump is able, but I think black Obama ideas about healthcare for all, were a real improvement for the most powerful country. France is not better than US versus virus, but healthcare is for all and even foreigners, and when I'm often mad about my tax when we have highest tax, but I will never complain to pay tax for healthcare for others, or for school. Of course I m a dreamer, but shouldn't everybody have access to healthcare, be able to read and understand world where we live? I would call this fair world.

[QUOTE=DeltaIndigo;2441100]What we have everywhere in actuality is controlled herd immunity. The point is not that Sweden is right, the point is to stagger it so that the death toll is not that high.
[/QUOTE]The current policy everywhere of shutting everything down is not sustainable. We will have to reopen the economy at some point. The question is, how.

Here is one professor who does not believe in social distancing, but in herd immunity.

[URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGC5sGdz4kg[/URL]

I would suggest the best strategy is:

1. Strict isolation for over-60's and people who are sick of anything.

2. Everybody else carry on as normal.

So most of the under-60's will get COVID-19, but they will have mild symptoms or no symptoms at all. A few will require hospitalization, but not enough to overwhelm the hospitals.

After a couple of months, herd immunity develops, the virus fizzles out, and the elderly can be readmitted into society.

Why wouldn't that work?

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2442231]It seems to me that many mongers believe they are immune to Corona.[/QUOTE]No one is immune, but not everyone is buying into the medias scaremongering.

[QUOTE]The most common symptoms of COVID-19 are fever, tiredness, and dry cough. Some patients may have aches and pains, nasal congestion, runny nose, sore throat or diarrhea. These symptoms are usually mild and begin gradually. Some people become infected but don't develop any symptoms and don't feel unwell. Most people (about 80%) recover from the disease without needing special treatment. Around 1 out of every 6 people who gets COVID-19 becomes seriously ill and develops difficulty breathing. Older people, and those with underlying medical problems like high blood pressure, heart problems or diabetes, are more likely to develop serious illness. People with fever, cough and difficulty breathing should seek medical attention.

[URL]https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-detail/q-a-coronaviruses[/URL]#text=symptoms.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=DeltaIndigo;2442461]You certainly know more about the medical and scientific aspects of this than I do and I think almost anyone else here. So you think it has peaked in the US, I thought that most models had shown otherwise, it might very well have peaked in NYC, but I had thought in the US certainly not, but at most the US is only a few weeks behind Europe anyhow.

All I was doing was interpreting the statistical data and trying to explain it. Most of this is not well understand by quite a few people and their own prejudices factor into their assertions.

What you explained about the implications of treating this illness were illuminating to me, no one, including the news has explained it as well as you have. Thank you for that.[/QUOTE]Thanks and No problem.

The models keep changing. I remember when the model called for a death toll of millions in the US alone. Then it dropped to 240,000. Then 100 K. Now 60 K.

They're a couple of hot spots festering right now where the populations are already pretty unhealthy to begin with so there is a chance that we'll see another surge of deaths in the upcoming week. That depends on how quickly NYC death rates drop. So long as Detroit and New Orleans areas do not get out of hand, the worst is behind the US.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2442481]The current policy everywhere of shutting everything down is not sustainable. We will have to reopen the economy at some point. The question is, how.

Here is one professor who does not believe in social distancing, but in herd immunity.

[URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGC5sGdz4kg[/URL]

I would suggest the best strategy is:

1. Strict isolation for over-60's and people who are sick of anything.

2. Everybody else carry on as normal.

So most of the under-60's will get COVID-19, but they will have mild symptoms or no symptoms at all. A few will require hospitalization, but not enough to overwhelm the hospitals.

After a couple of months, herd immunity develops, and the elderly can be readmitted into society.

Why wouldn't that work?[/QUOTE]The lockdown varies in severity from country to country, and the people who move about the most and violate the rules tend to be younger. In Switzerland I would say the lockdown is a bit of a joke. The point about a different rule for over 60's and younger people might be optimal but it won't be enforced for political considerations.

It is more like an all or nothing approach politically. Since the lockdown will not be 100% effective anywhere, what we do have is staggered herd immunity, so that different infectious people are taken out of the pool gradually. So every two weeks a certain segment of potentially infectious people are no longer infectious and so on. There are off course infected people after one two week cycle, but the spread of this is staggered and herd immunity will take ahold anyhow since this is highly infectious, I am not a doctor, but I think this is far more infectious than the flu.

The argument is between staggered and phased herd immunity and the lack of any lockdown. Why won't it work? We don't know for sure but the vast majority of modelling indicates that the ultimate death toll will be far higher with no lockdown at all.

I don't want to predict any dire scenarios or a massive death toll, but many countries that were initially resisting a severe lockdown given the economic cost have decided that the resulting death toll would be at least politically unacceptable, like the UK and the Netherlands and most infamously a certain President.

I think social isolation during 2 or 3 (2 week cycles) could stagger this and potentially do a lot of good. At least in the initial phases, there is good evidence that the lockdown reduces the death toll, in the long run whether the slower development of herd immunity is worth it is anyone's guess, most of the modelling and the medical opinion suggests that it is though. As you know there are countries that are relatively lax, just a few of them, we will know in a month of two what the result of those policies were.

The point is this, very few politicians want to pay the political costs of the economic damage of this lockdown, but in response to the medical advice they have been given, they have chosen to do so. I really do not think that the few dissenting countries know better, I think they are just unwillinng to pay the political price in the short term or worse, have a robotic mind set (I will not say more about this to avoid a flame war).

I will say however that the pseudo nationalistic arguments I hear are not at all convincing to say the least.

If it is true that this mutates very fast or that you can get it more than once like some observations suggest, then herd immunity will not work at all and this has to be snuffed out. I hope to God that that is not true, I hope that herd immunity will gradually take hold.

What you say might work, and I think there is a chance I already had this and my symptoms were very mild. However I will tell you that given the unpredictable nature of the symptoms, even I who is relatively young and quite physically fit would not risk deliberately getting this. I know people who have tested positive for it and recovered with relatively mild symptoms.

Given the fact that so many self interested politicians are advocating a lockdown, what does this tell you? This is more serious than we thought.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2442481]The current policy everywhere of shutting everything down is not sustainable. We will have to reopen the economy at some point. The question is, how.

Here is one professor who does not believe in social distancing, but in herd immunity.

[URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGC5sGdz4kg[/URL]

I would suggest the best strategy is:

1. Strict isolation for over-60's and people who are sick of anything.

2. Everybody else carry on as normal.

So most of the under-60's will get COVID-19, but they will have mild symptoms or no symptoms at all. A few will require hospitalization, but not enough to overwhelm the hospitals.

After a couple of months, herd immunity develops, the virus fizzles out, and the elderly can be readmitted into society.

Why wouldn't that work?[/QUOTE]By the way on a lighter note, this is the first time you have initiated a message without an arabic phrase or something similar. I can see that we are all stressed out by what is happening.

[QUOTE=TheCane;2442214]Looking ahead to better times, I've decided that I would like to take a trip to Germany in 2021 for my next mongering adventure. I'm quite familiar with my favorite FKK destinations in Frankfurt, Hamburg, and Berlin. Also with Munich and Cologne, neither of which I desire to return to for the purposes of mongering. I've also decided to skip Augsburg for the time being. That leaves me with one major metro area that I have yet to fully investigate, and that would be Dusseldorf.

For those who know the Dusseldorf area and environs, which clubs there would you classify as "must-see" clubs? I remember that years ago before I first visited it, many of the "ice bears" referred to Golden Time as "must-see". I went, I saw, and I really did not like it there, and have never returned. I understand that one of my favorites of all time, German, blue-eyed blonde "Artemis Lilia" used to work at GT. Damn glad I found her at another club, as I've no desire to set foot inside of GT again.

So, seems my choices are the following (although I think one of these may have permanently closed): Living Room; Acapulco; Dolce Vita; Planet Happy Garden; Oceans. Would appreciate hearing from those of you who are in the know from direct experience about the pros and cons of each of these clubs, and why any one of them should be on my "must-see" list during my next mongering trip to Ge-monger-ry. Thanks in advance![/QUOTE]Well, I tried to change the topic away from COVID-19 at least for a minute. Any intel on Magnum? Anybody familiar with my expressed likes over the years think I would like it there? Do tell! I'm assuming all these clubs will still be around in 2021. Maybe not.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2442481]The current policy everywhere of shutting everything down is not sustainable. We will have to reopen the economy at some point. The question is, how.

Here is one professor who does not believe in social distancing, but in herd immunity.

[URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGC5sGdz4kg[/URL]

I would suggest the best strategy is:

1. Strict isolation for over-60's and people who are sick of anything.

2. Everybody else carry on as normal.

So most of the under-60's will get COVID-19, but they will have mild symptoms or no symptoms at all. A few will require hospitalization, but not enough to overwhelm the hospitals.

After a couple of months, herd immunity develops, the virus fizzles out, and the elderly can be readmitted into society.

Why wouldn't that work?[/QUOTE]Among less than 70 yo, when no obesity nor diabetic, nor cancer treatment, nor lungs or heart problems, then much less than 1% dying. Most people don t have any symptom. Confined since 1 month in France is told to save not more than 3000 people when already nearly 14000 deaths and unfortunately not finished yet. 8 millions more unemployed in France, no tourism when the first place for tourism in the world. Had to work hard to try to protect my job and earning. Virus but also economic crisis to come very soon. NL and Sweden prefer to save their economy.

[QUOTE=Turgid;2442511]Is it that you are relishing the prospect of no over 60's competing with you for the p4p belles? We all know they are the biggest clientele.[/QUOTE]When will reopen, don t mean no more virus all over the world, so I doubt no virus in FKK land when people from all over the world, so could be risky for not healthy enough and for relatives of clients and WGs. Should be a new FKK world for a while.

[QUOTE=Steve9696;2442519]Fully aware this is the German forum. And painfully aware that it's become the Corona Virus opinion of the day forum. So I hope the following break from that is welcomed by at least some. Sometimes people discuss whether Globe is worth it. And you may have heard of its double price competitor Aphrodisia at a heart stopping $USD280/ half. Is it worth it? You decide.[/QUOTE]IMHO, neither Aphrodesia nor Globe are worth it. Not when I have Germany and Brazil. I did enjoy Globe when I went. Had a good anal session with a hot blonde from Gothenburg, Sweden. And literally the best BBBJ / CIM experience I have ever had in my entire life. She was Brazilian. Ahem! LOL! Enjoyed a decent looking Romanian girl at Aphrodesia, but did not like the place nearly as much. Would repeat at both clubs if I were in Switzerland. But, I have no plans to go to Switzerland anytime soon.

It's just too expensive, including food, hotels, transportation. Everything man! No need for me to return when other destinations fully meet and satisfy my needs. Now, as you said, this is a German forum. So, since things are slow, can somebody please provide some input regarding my general inquiry about the clubs around Dusseldorf (see below)? This is the last area of Germany that I want to conquer. The most up-to-date intel available regarding the Dusseldorf metro area clubs would be most appreciated. Thanks!

This should have been done from the get go. Add a caveat that if a sub 60 year old or someone with comorbidities does not want to risk being in that temporary society, they could do it with some sort of mandated job guarantee. Whatever strain that still brings would be better than what's happening now.

The infected threshold of herd immunity for COVID is around 70% so I do wonder how that could be achieved in a short enough time without having to lock up senior citizens for over a year. I don't think a couple of months would do it unless it was done purposefully.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2442481]The current policy everywhere of shutting everything down is not sustainable. We will have to reopen the economy at some point. The question is, how.

Here is one professor who does not believe in social distancing, but in herd immunity.

[URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGC5sGdz4kg[/URL]

I would suggest the best strategy is:

1. Strict isolation for over-60's and people who are sick of anything.

2. Everybody else carry on as normal.

So most of the under-60's will get COVID-19, but they will have mild symptoms or no symptoms at all. A few will require hospitalization, but not enough to overwhelm the hospitals.

After a couple of months, herd immunity develops, the virus fizzles out, and the elderly can be readmitted into society.

Why wouldn't that work?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=DeltaIndigo;2442488]Given the fact that so many self interested politicians are advocating a lockdown, what does this tell you? This is more serious than we thought.[/QUOTE]They're probably thinking that the political cost of loss of life would be more damaging than their cost due to economic loss. That's what got Trump and what got be. Johnson. At this point few leaders such as the Brazilian president are betting on the minimal shut down tactic.

[QUOTE=DeltaIndigo;2442488]The point about a different rule for over 60's and younger people might be optimal but it won't be enforced for political considerations.[/QUOTE]During WWII the children were sent out of London for their own safety. How about sending the elderly out of London, New York, etc? They would go into special quarantine zones where testing is mandatory. As a short-term thing.

Except for the politicians. They would be shot into outer space.

[QUOTE=Turgid;2442511]Is it that you are relishing the prospect of no over 60's competing with you for the p4p belles?[/QUOTE]

Yes.

[QUOTE=DeltaIndigo;2442488]However I will tell you that given the unpredictable nature of the symptoms, even I who is relatively young and quite physically fit would not risk deliberately getting this. [/QUOTE]Wallah, Sayyid Indigo, nor would I. But I think the young should have a choice. Just like they can choose other risky activities like mountaineering and whitewater rafting. If people want to have Coronavirus parties, let them! Yes, they will suffer the consequences. But we will owe them a debt because they contribute to herd immunity. The best way of paying that debt is covering their hospital costs. Again: 99.9% of these young idiots will not die.

[QUOTE=DeltaIndigo;2442488]Given the fact that so many self interested politicians are advocating a lockdown, what does this tell you?[/QUOTE]It tells me that pressure was applied from above to maintain a state of crisis so that (a) we will all have our phones traced, (b) fertility rates will drop even more, and (c) there will be strict border controls to keep workers in their pens. These three things are all wet dreams of the global elite.

[QUOTE=TheCane;2442491]Well, I tried to change the topic away from COVID-19 at least for a minute. Any intel on Magnum? Anybody familiar with my expressed likes over the years think I would like it there? Do tell! I'm assuming all these clubs will still be around in 2021. Maybe not.[/QUOTE]I hate to disappoint you and other FKK fans, but just let you know that Merkel said a few days ago in the press conference that she will keep the brothels closed until there is vaccine, according to a German board. So everything is up in the air.

[QUOTE=ShooBree;2442455]You are delusional if you don't understand that I know much more than you do about the situation in Sweden because, unlike you, I live in Sweden and follow the national news closely. You are just a monger.[/QUOTE]LOL! Nice reply. I'm glad you know how to read.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2442561]I hate to disappoint you and other FKK fans, but just let you know that Merkel said a few days ago in the press conference that she will keep the brothels closed until there is vaccine, according to a German board. So everything is up in the air.[/QUOTE]I'm not disappointed one bit. My trip would be in late 2021 well past the 18 month max mark when a vaccine is supposed to be available. I think we will have one before then. We shall see. In the meantime, one must plan. Info on Dusseldorf anyone?

[QUOTE=Steve9696;2442519]Fully aware this is the German forum. And painfully aware that it's become the Corona Virus opinion of the day forum. So I hope the following break from that is welcomed by at least some.

Sometimes people discuss whether Globe is worth it. And you may have heard of its double price competitor Aphrodisia at a heart stopping $USD280/ half. Is it worth it? You decide. Here is a report from a year ago.

Rolled up around 10 and like a lot of these clubs it is very discreet from the street. Uber guy dropped me off but I had to poke around a bit to find it. It is in fact at the pin but only identified by two massive wooden doors. Push your way in and you will see another door labeled Aphrodisia.

Upon arrival, a hostess greets me in the hall and explains the process and prices (yes it's 280 a half! But it scales better. 380 for 45 minutes, 500 an hour). On your right is another door where you enter the club. And wow. I mean wow. This was a Thursday night and there must have been 30 girls and maybe 5-6 guys. I was stunned how many girls there were and they were all slim and pretty.

The club has an unusual format. No cover and the drinks are free. You could literally come in, have a few drinks and leave if you don't like the merch. This is highly unlikely. There are tons of girls and they all eyes on you. It's very unusual, especially if you are used to being the last picked for gym class.

The girls are not allowed to approach so it's a very chill vibe. I found a spot on the couch and chatted up a fellow compatriot who had been before. It was a nice conversation but before long we waived over a dark haired Romanian hottie in a black Danskin. She sat between us and we both chatted her up a bit. I was tempted but we both moved on.

Eventually I settled on Aurelia. An unbelievably pretty German girl. A solid 9 in and out of her clothes. We went upstairs. The rooms are very nice with 12 foot ceilings and a big king bed in a large room. Showered across the hall while she took the money downstairs. Clothes were shed and we had a very pleasant if unspectacular time. We did all the usual stuff but I can't recall the exact sequence (give me a break. I've fucked 5 girls in the last 24 hours and I am in pussy fog!

Her kissing was light and she does not BLS or I would have repeated. Great pussy fit, in both doggie and mish which is rare for me, so that is a big plus. We finished about 20 minutes in but no rush to leave. Shared a cigarette on the bed and just chatted for a while. Nice relaxed mood.

Even though the sex was nothing to write home about there is a classiness to the in-room interaction. Very sweet and professional and at the end where I had left the CH20 change on the table she said "don't forget your money" rather than "a tip for me?" I am definitely not at Sharks or Oase! And Just a classy feel throughout..[/QUOTE]I visited twice Aphrodisia on 2019, each time on Thursday at 7 pm, because Thursday evening is said to be best casting time there. Welcoming desk with good chocolates on desk on my second visit. Both times when I arrived, more than 50 girls, more than at Globe, some sitting behind the bar, all girls looking at you, staring at you, smiling, at least you feel very beautiful if you are self confident enough about your image, and I was the only guy, sultan of harem, girls serve you drink. Free entry and drinking for free, even if you want to drink alcohol, unfortunately, only orange juice for fruit juice, for me. On my 2 visits, I stayed about 8 hours, I saw guys entering, drinking or taking drug on the bar, and leaving without even looking at girls, and from my Russian escorts I pay 200 € for nearly 1 hour, I try to leave at 55 mn not to be asked for 1 hour rate, and from girls in Paris streets I see every day, I never saw any girl, not even Sunny, who worth to pay 280 for 30 mn, or 500 for 1 hour, I had prettier and more fresh girls in Germany, really kissing, I can enjoy for 4 hours in Germany for 1 hour at Aphrodisia and not even better service, with not many really kissing, I was told by some locals. Aphrodisia casting really don't worth the rate, many girls worked in Germany before, but not fresh anymore, like ex Beatrice Oase or Sharks seen on my first visit, but not on second, kind of cemetery for WGs, Aphrodisia is like the end of the road. Even Globe casting fell and not more than 5 girls at Globe now worth the rate = 130 €/30 mn, for me, with CIM 100 , anal 200 . More fresh girls and less silicon, except at GT, in Germany where if you find a beauty for you, you can have 3 hours with her for 1 hour at Globe, and 4 hours with her for 1 hour at Aphrodisia. Casting is on average far higher level for looks and services at Globe than at Aphrodisia, but unfortunately, Globe lost chic, girls lost elegance and charm. Zurich is a small village where cocaine is cheap. According to some locals and from my Swiss experiences, some other Swiss clubs are more interesting now, I mean before virus. Wait and see what will be after, but Globe was not anymore higher level than Germany where I had prettier girls for less expensive in 2019, mostly at Oase and one great at Gold.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2442561]I hate to disappoint you and other FKK fans, but just let you know that Merkel said a few days ago in the press conference that she will keep the brothels closed until there is vaccine, according to a German board. So everything is up in the air.[/QUOTE]Really? Until vaccine which will need months. Austria and maybe Switzerland should reopen before.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2442470]I am kinda going against the flood here and suspect Sweden did the right move in not closing down as much. The only thing they should have done better was to test far more than they have. You cannot test enough in order to get real data.

Because the only way I see it now, is that we have to burn this thing out. Although not destroying the health system, we need to keep it at max capacity in order to burn it out as quickly as possible. Otherwise, the virus will just mutate thousands of times before we reach herd imunity. And the more it mutates, the harder it will get to reach herd imunity. And also, the less effective vaccines will become. Actually, vaccines will be 99.99% useless from day one is my prediction due to the mutation rates some scientists are seing.

So basically, people will just have to die. A lot of people. It is the only way for society to get back to where we were. Otherwise, we'll just be herds in a cage for the rest of our lives. And hell, even Netflix, HBO and others are putting TV shows on hold, and gyms are closed. So this is getting boring fast.[/QUOTE]Mutations occurs in the hosts. The more people that are infected, the more mutations. However, lethality is not good for a virus. If it kills the host quickly, the virus dies too. That is why viruses tend to become less lethal with time. No country has shown an ability to control covid-19 once is rapidly spreads. The only way is suppression. In general, vaccines work even if the virus mutates. There is a lot of similarity and it is easy to target a virus once you have an effective vaccine. The vaccine can be adjusted for any common mutation. The problem here is the virus is novel so we have zero immunity. Even an imperfect vaccine will provide some immunity and at least mitigate the death rate.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2442561]I hate to disappoint you and other FKK fans, but just let you know that Merkel said a few days ago in the press conference that she will keep the brothels closed until there is vaccine, according to a German board. So everything is up in the air.[/QUOTE]Do you have a quote or reference where Merkel specifically mentions prostitution or brothels? I have not seen any.

A summary in English of Merkel's press conference before Easter can be found here: [URL]https://www.thelocal.de/20200409/the-situation-is-fragile-merkel-urges-germans-to-stick-to-coronavirus-restrictions[/URL].

She is quoted as saying: The rules will remain in place as long as we do not have a vaccine that can be used to immunize the population against the virus. .

This was with regard to how this year's summer holidays may be affected and had nothing to do with prostitution specifically. It's unclear which rules she is referring to, however it certainly isn't Germany's plan to keep the status quo until a vaccine has been developed. So I think she is just referencing that some unspecified rules will be in place until that happens.

I see German media reference an expert brief quite a lot which describes a tentative way forward. This article (in German) is one example: [URL]https://www.bild.de/politik/inland/politik-inland/nrw-expertenteam-zum-corona-exit-so-wuerde-laschet-die-regeln-lockern-69996868.bild.html[/URL].

Here is an excerpt from the article, by way of Google Translate:

The expert commission recommends that economic activities should be re-approved as quickly as possible and as far as responsible. Protective measures such as masks, spacing or partitions would have to be taken. Retail stores could, for example, "reopen earlier than discotheques, in gastronomy, strict guidelines may be conceivable (distance between tables, limited number of people)".

The paper also states: "Major events such as Bundesliga soccer matches with spectators, but also trade fairs and congresses will not be possible in the foreseeable future. ".

My point is, I think it is too early to tell what will happen to prostitution in Germany, and particularly FKKs, for the next six to 18 months. Even if a vaccine takes 18 months or longer to develop and distribute, I don't think we can conclude already that FKKs will be closed for the duration.

I still carry a fair hope that it will be possible to lounge in a German FKK garden come July or August 2020.

A meeting between all states and the federal government is set for this coming Wednesday. I think we will know a lot more after the following press conference.

P.S.

And also, I think it will be up to to individual states, and not Merkel and the federal government, if and when the FKKs open again.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2442476]So you missed out on this article?

[URL]https://www.ecodibergamo.it/stories/bergamo-citta/coronavirus-the-real-death-tool-4500-victims-in-one-month-in-the-province-of_1347414_11/[/URL]

That is for Italy, a country which has been fairly good at testing people. With 15.935 tests per 1 M. In Comparison, Germany has 15.730 tests per 1 M. So Italian numbers are more accurate than German numbers. And in Italy, it seems they are only managing to pick up on about 44% of deaths from the virus.

New York for comparison tests 22.478 per 1 M, so figures there are probably a bit more precise. But Spain, UK and France has been very sloppy, so you can probably multiply it by 3-4 in those countries. Meaning for example France now has probably over 50 000 deaths. Hi Sirioja, remembers what we discussed a few days ago?

But of course, make your own number calculations. I will stick to mine. For India for example, with just 137 tests per 1 M, I suspect the real figures can probably be multiplied by 100-150. And Brazil is underepoting by 50+ times. And Africa pretty much doesn't have any testing capacity worth recognizing at all. But US figures shows Africans are 6 times more at risk than whites. Questions is just is that is due to the reasons the officials claim. I personally think the genetic factors play a larger role in all of this, so Africa will be hit harder than anywhere else. They will also face the same 'Hunger Games' scenario India is experiencing. Further increasing the death numbers from other non-corona related deaths. So there are no epicenters any longer its pretty global.[/QUOTE]France is counting not only people dying in hospitals, but old people in residences and others, and less than 15000 deaths today, Italy tell about 20000 deaths but more around Bergamo, and already more than 20000 in US, with more than 15 millions more unemployed with no more healthcare insurance and many people who can't anymore pay their flat rent and have to leave NY. Real crisis in US where some don't even have money to buy to eat. Government should give about 1000 USD to help some, but what about 11 millions illegals? Confined will be extended in France. In France, they say not more than 15% were infected, not enough because of confined, when 1 infected may infect 3 new people. Best is to have been infected and recovered, then no more risk tell french doctors. For sure, best to return to brothels with no risks.

[QUOTE=Turgid;2442633]Women at the helm has never been good for our proclivity. Look what happened to my once favorite destination, Argentina. There have only been undependable social media rumors of vaccines. What about other clubs and crowd activities such as Oktoberfest and music concerts. Are those dependent on vaccines as well? No different congregation activities than brothels.[/QUOTE]Only activity true monger care is brothels and escort service LOL, I ain't going to any events where there is bunch of guys with beers on their hands and girls wearing clothes LOL!

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2442583]France is counting not only people dying in hospitals, but old people in residences and others, and less than 15000 deaths today, Italy tell about 20000 deaths but more around Bergamo, and already more than 20000 in US, with more than 15 millions more unemployed with no more healthcare insurance and many people who can't anymore pay their flat rent and have to leave NY. Real crisis in US where some don't even have money to buy to eat. Government should give about 1000 USD to help some, but what about 11 millions illegals? Confined will be extended in France. In France, they say not more than 15% were infected, not enough because of confined, when 1 infected may infect 3 new people. Best is to have been infected and recovered, then no more risk tell french doctors. For sure, best to return to brothels with no risks.[/QUOTE]I saw a report today that the UK does not count deaths in nursing home facilities or deaths that occur in private homes. I mean, how in the world can that be? Makes no sense to me, and if true, proves we're not comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges then because I know the USA does count these types of COVID-related deaths.

[QUOTE=Akibono;2442579]Mutations occurs in the hosts. The more people that are infected, the more mutations. However, lethality is not good for a virus. If it kills the host quickly, the virus dies too. That is why viruses tend to become less lethal with time. No country has shown an ability to control covid-19 once is rapidly spreads. The only way is suppression. In general, vaccines work even if the virus mutates. There is a lot of similarity and it is easy to target a virus once you have an effective vaccine. The vaccine can be adjusted for any common mutation. The problem here is the virus is novel so we have zero immunity. Even an imperfect vaccine will provide some immunity and at least mitigate the death rate.[/QUOTE]Well, it has been said the vaccine against the common flu, which mutates quite a lot as well, only reduces your time of being sick by 10-20%. And that is when the mutation of the season is very close to the one that infects you. Flu viruses from previous seasons probably has an even lower immunity bonus than the 10-20% you get from the vaccine, but may be in larger quantities. So yes, you are right that it may help to some degree. And that the worst mutations will just kill off themselves along with their targets.

But,

1. We don't know yet how fast it mutates.

2. It may mutate in reverse, back to the most lethal forms. While the vaccine makers will most likely miss the most lethal versions in the samples they have used.

3. It has been shown that the corona virus messes with our immune system and can temper with our white blood cells. Then, when we get the vaccine, which is usually crippled forms of the same virus in order to stimulate our immune system without it being able to kill off the virus, the vaccine may become more dangerous than the disease. Because even the crippled forms of Covid-19 may mess with our immune system in a similar way. And this is why I am way more scared of a lifelong vaccine than even a full month of near death at the hospital.

[QUOTE=TheCane;2442649]I saw a report today that the UK does not count deaths in nursing home facilities or deaths that occur in private homes. I mean, how in the world can that be? Makes no sense to me, and if true, proves we're not comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges then because I know the USA does count these types of COVID-related deaths.[/QUOTE]It would make perfect sense if you knew how bonkers the UK government is and how keen they are in running from reality. The death numbers in UK are also managed in a way that they never reach 1000/ day, as that would be psychological too hard for UK people to accept. A bunch of idiots in charge, yet very faithful to their 'Dear Leader' Boris Johnson!

[QUOTE=Pistons;2442703]3. It has been shown that the corona virus messes with our immune system and can temper with our white blood cells. Then, when we get the vaccine, which is usually crippled forms of the same virus in order to stimulate our immune system without it being able to kill off the virus, the vaccine may become more dangerous than the disease. Because even the crippled forms of Covid-19 may mess with our immune system in a similar way. And this is why I am way more scared of a lifelong vaccine than even a full month of near death at the hospital.[/QUOTE]A successful vaccine is made of parts of the proteins of virus, so it would not even look like the virus they came from and it would definitely be inactive. A virus can be active or not active, nothing in between. However, the first vaccine will be tested at the end of this month on healthy volunteer and Advent-Irbm and Oxfor University are attracting a lot of investments for then distribute the vaccine as widely as possible. It may not be so crazy to think we may have a working vaccine in the summer. Fingers crossed.

I would hypothesize that when a vaccine is found, whenever that may be, countries may require people seeking to enter the country to have a vaccination certificate. I am one of those who have a fear of vaccination. What a decision!

[QUOTE=Turgid;2442799]I would hypothesize that when a vaccine is found, whenever that may be, countries may require people seeking to enter the country to have a vaccination certificate. I am one of those who have a fear of vaccination. What a decision![/QUOTE]Many problems with grippe vaccine in France. What about European union, only UK is out now.

Passive vaccines are nothing to fear. They only kill 1 in 10 millions. And have severe side effects 1 in 100,000.

Yet active vaccines are tougher. I had one once, and regret not to have chosen my right arm for the injection. Why the right arm? Simply because I sleep on the left side (ie the left arm). And that was out of the question for 3 nights.

[QUOTE=Turgid;2442799]I would hypothesize that when a vaccine is found, whenever that may be, countries may require people seeking to enter the country to have a vaccination certificate. I am one of those who have a fear of vaccination. What a decision![/QUOTE]

Ugh masks means no oral, no kissing, no anything but stuffing penis in. Sure hope it is more lax. Not even worth going.

[QUOTE=Kuni042;2442812]I speak German, and I was not able to spot this statement. She made it clear, that their will be lots of trial and error in relaxing all the constraints. Some sooner (schools) and some later.

There is no reason that brothels should re-open sooner or later then disco-clubs, bars etc.

My take is, that brothels will re-open.

A) if they have a viable strategy to keep customers (mongers) away from each other. As I pointed out in the GT thread, this is for some of the narrow FKK club difficult to achieve. FKK clubs either have to remodel significantly, go bust, or wait for 2021.

B) if they have a viable strategy to keep males safe from the young ladies (e. G. Both most likely will be wearing masks). The ladies will likely have to wear surgical masks in the room (like condom was already mandatory, right?).

C) ladies will be selected by the mongers from a distance. I have seen this already in swiss brothels in 2010 and before.

D) And the mongers might feel or be obligated to wear FFP2 masks during sex. Not 100% sure. But this is conceivable- provided enough of them masks will be around in summer or so.

I think this is all doable. But there is no way that brothels will re-open sooner or later then disco-clubs, bars etc.

Re point a: some red-right districts have an easier time to build safer tracks. Similar to shopping centers.

BTW: ladies that have already been infected may have the best business chances.[/QUOTE]

I am sorry but how are your be and the viable in a sex session between a man and a girl? Are we going to fuck as if we are starring in Eyes Wide Shut? I don't follow your conclusion that they are all doable, as you say at the end. I mean, we have been crying copiously that not all girls are fully nekkid in the main room and that some girls will not suck dick w / o a condom unless extra money is proffered, will guys now accept putting on masks while fucking a girl who also has a mask? (Those N95's are hard to breathe through as such, some old guys may suffer severe consequences if fucking with a n95 on).

I also am not sure if the government will buy the FKK argument (if that is going to be their argument) that sex is safe and no transmission will happen as long as the guy and gal wear some kinda mask. I don't believe chance of transmission is zero if one of them is infected, and I don't see how the government will accept it will be safe.

My guess is, I totally misunderstood what you tried to say. Please correct me.

[QUOTE=Kuni042;2442812]I speak German, and I was not able to spot this statement. She made it clear, that their will be lots of trial and error in relaxing all the constraints. Some sooner (schools) and some later.

There is no reason that brothels should re-open sooner or later then disco-clubs, bars etc.

My take is, that brothels will re-open.

A) if they have a viable strategy to keep customers (mongers) away from each other. As I pointed out in the GT thread, this is for some of the narrow FKK club difficult to achieve. FKK clubs either have to remodel significantly, go bust, or wait for 2021.

B) if they have a viable strategy to keep males safe from the young ladies (e. G. Both most likely will be wearing masks). The ladies will likely have to wear surgical masks in the room (like condom was already mandatory, right?)..[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=MaxSquatter;2442827]Ugh masks means no oral, no kissing, no anything but stuffing penis in. Sure hope it is more lax. Not even worth going.[/QUOTE]No way would I accept and put up with that! Holding out for late 2021 regardless.

[QUOTE=Mursenary;2442542]
The infected threshold of herd immunity for COVID is around 70% so I do wonder how that could be achieved in a short enough time without having to lock up senior citizens for over a year. I don't think a couple of months would do it unless it was done purposefully.[/QUOTE]Salaam Mursenary,

At the current feeble rate of infection, I calculate that Germany will achieve herd immunity in the year 2089.

The current strategy works only as long as everything stays shut. Imagine that. All the factories closed for 69 years. All the shops closed for 69 years. All the schools closed for 69 years. I'm fine with that. But all the FKKs closed for 69 years? By the Prophet! Have I got your attention now?

Suppose we go in the opposite direction. All under-60's hugging and kissing as if they were at a Berlusconi orgy, and passing around greasy pizza. A national lovefest and daily FKK visits compulsory for all non-seniors including manginas. Yes, then it could all be over in a couple of months. Love is the answer. DFK for the win.

You may say I'm a dreamer but I'm not the only one. I just found that this famous German epidemiologist Kekule has the same idea as me:

[URL]https://www.express.de/news/panorama/virologe-stellt-these-auf-schaden-durch-lockdown-groesser-als-durch-corona-36548638[/URL]

Using Google Translate, a summary:

[I]
LOCKDOWN DAMAGE GREATER THAN CORONA
...
"We cannot wait for a vaccine and live in lockdown mode for another six to twelve months. If we did, our society and culture would be destroyed."
...
Older people and people with previous illnesses, i.e. those who are most susceptible to the coronavirus, should remain isolated. Kekule: We have to convince them to stay at home. But we also have to find ways to make the situation bearable for them, so that, for example. shopping and social life are also possible. When this vulnerable group leaves the house, a mask or mask is required.
...
The 61-year-old suggests that young people be (consciously) infected with Sars-CoV-2 in order to become immune as quickly as possible. In the age groups <50, the course of the disease is usually harmless. In this respect - according to the epidemiologist - schools and kindergartens must first be opened after the lockdown. Denmark is already planning this after Easter.
[/I]

Every government / media talking about a vaccine as if it was, simple candy you buy from a supermarket.

Finding the correct vaccine which confers resistance to virus without a side effect, is a cumbersome process that isn't always viable at least in 2020.

Need I remind you HIV, the holy shittiest king of all viruses to ever exist, is hitting earth since at least 1980, yet till today ZERO vaccine available (40 fucking years), among other viruses such as Herpes, Hepatitis see, West Nile virus. Etc.

Not to forget to mention the previous two coronaviruses, Mr SARS and Mrs MERS, which were known in 2003/2012 respectively still till this date has zero vaccine or even a mere antiviral treatment. Granted those viruses weren't a pandemic which didn't put a pressure on government to provide a vaccine nevertheless it still shows making vaccine kr antiviral isn't a simple picnic.

Yes, I'm not a virologist, or immunity specialist, as each virus has its own genome either DNA / RNA and its special envelope and proteins, maybe the virology aspect of Coronavirus makes it an ideal target for a future vaccine that I can't give my input in (But again the previous two coronaviruses which were similar in structure still we failed to create a vaccine).

But for the life of me, I hope government don't put all hopes on an imaginary vaccine, HERD immunity is plan A, Vaccine shouldn't be plan A or be or see, it should be as close as plan Z if anything (little hyperbole for emphasis).

The day Germany / Austria / Switz declare no FKK till vaccine is a sad day. The only benefit of lack of FKK is that my wallet for a first time will start to swell, as FKK really damages my bank account, as it's my number 1 nonessential thing to spend all my money.

[QUOTE=MaxSquatter;2442827]Ugh masks means no oral, no kissing, no anything but stuffing penis in. Sure hope it is more lax. Not even worth going.[/QUOTE]Could be even worse: No Oral, No Kissing. Only HJ with girl wearing a glove and mask.

[QUOTE=Mtraveller;2442831]Another German speaker here, watched the video, found the point in the speech referred to. There was no "analogous" statement or any other implication that prostitution will be forbidden till a vaccination will be available. Absolutely nonsense what that user wrote in the Rheinforum.

It should be obvious to any half sane person though, that under rules of social distancing the big clubs will not re-open until other places of social gathering like bars, dancing clubs will be allowed to re-open as well.

Smaller brothels and girls working independently may find it easier to restart business. Once general quarantine restrictions are removed.[/QUOTE]Thank you very much for your input. I am very glad there will be no ban on prostitution until a vaccine will be available, because I live in Germany and perhaps would have much more to lose than most of ISGers if there would be a ban.

[QUOTE=MaxSquatter;2442827]Ugh masks means no oral, no kissing, no anything but stuffing penis in. Sure hope it is more lax. Not even worth going.[/QUOTE]Mongering will become more expensive. Sex without a mask will become an extra proposed by the girls in the room.

[QUOTE=Kawaii50;2442838]Could be even worse: No Oral, No Kissing. Only HJ with girl wearing a glove and mask.[/QUOTE]For sure, with no kissing, no good old BJ, no DATY, but masks for both, gloves for both and condom, real erotic, sensual plastic sex, today I was right to prepare bicycle, more enjoyable to rub my balls on seat.

Not that you guys will miss me but I am just going to stop reading this thread for a while. I enjoy reading all the threads of places I've been and will return to. But this thread has become uniquely tedious of all threads worldwide. I recall this happened a year or two ago when 3 or so people just dominated the conversation with oneupmanship. Fortunately it eventually recovered. I hope the same is true here.

See you soon. (I hope).

[QUOTE=Turgid;2442849]Mongering will become more expensive. Sex without a mask will become an extra proposed by the girls in the room.[/QUOTE]Sex without a Hazmat suit will become an extra proposed by the girls in the room.

Or maybe let's stop giving the girls ideas.

[QUOTE=Steve9696;2442878]Not that you guys will miss me but I am just going to stop reading this thread for a while. I enjoy reading all the threads of places I've been and will return to. But this thread has become uniquely tedious of all threads worldwide. I recall this happened a year or two ago when 3 or so people just dominated the conversation with oneupmanship. Fortunately it eventually recovered. I hope the same is true here.

See you soon. (I hope).[/QUOTE]If you think this is bad, don't go to the Tijuana thread.

I am also highly unsure if we get a vaccine done. Remember: there is no vaccine against the rhino-viruses (causing the common cold) - nor AIDS.

Also the virus may have mutated by then. And and and.

There is no way out:

I still believe clubs / brothels MUST adapt to the new normal and start planning for the worst. If everything turns out to be gone in March, so what? At least we are then prepared for the next one, e. G. The MaVid-22 (ie the new Marburger virus- only half-assed kidding here) or PoVid-24.

[QUOTE=MythoVirus;2442837]Every government / media talking about a vaccine as if it was, simple candy you buy from a supermarket.

Finding the correct vaccine which confers resistance to virus without a side effect, is a cumbersome process that isn't always viable at least in 2020.

Need I remind you HIV, the holy shittiest king of all viruses to ever exist, is hitting earth since at least 1980, yet till today ZERO vaccine available (40 fucking years), among other viruses such as Herpes, Hepatitis see, West Nile virus. Etc.

Not to forget to mention the previous two coronaviruses, Mr SARS and Mrs MERS, which were known in 2003/2012 respectively still till this date has zero vaccine or even a mere antiviral treatment. Granted those viruses weren't a pandemic which didn't put a pressure on government to provide a vaccine nevertheless it still shows making vaccine kr antiviral isn't a simple picnic.

Yes, I'm not a virologist, or immunity specialist, as each virus has its own genome either DNA / RNA and its special envelope and proteins, maybe the virology aspect of Coronavirus makes it an ideal target for a future vaccine that I can't give my input in (But again the previous two coronaviruses which were similar in structure still we failed to create a vaccine).

But for the life of me, I hope government don't put all hopes on an imaginary vaccine, HERD immunity is plan A, Vaccine shouldn't be plan A or be or see, it should be as close as plan Z if anything (little hyperbole for emphasis).

The day Germany / Austria / Switz declare no FKK till vaccine is a sad day. The only benefit of lack of FKK is that my wallet for a first time will start to swell, as FKK really damages my bank account, as it's my number 1 nonessential thing to spend all my money.[/QUOTE]

I think the key is testing. Once you can test enough people daily, and I mean like 10% of the population per day so that you can quarantine everyone that gets sick right away, you should be able to get the R0 rate (average number of people each infected person infects) below 1 and the amount of cases will remain under control. You also need to be able to test for antibodies so that some people can be excluded from testing and just go on with life. FKKs will need to have a way to test all their girls and clients. I think this is the trick to FKKs being able to convince the government that they are not causing harm by spreading coronavirus. Today, testing needs to be done in a lab, but the ability to test on the spot and fast is being developed quickly.

Governments understand the importance of testing and it wouldn't surprise me if by summer, the ability to test quickly and on the spot is widespread. I suspect this is the next step in government response.

BTW. If a girl has already had it, she becomes the perfect WG at an FKK. She generally can't get it again and can't spread it to anyone again (assuming covid behaves like most viruses).

Also, sex with a face mask seems dumb. Most infections are caused by touching something that then gets into a your mouth, eye or nose. Can't very well have sex without touching. You can shower afterwards but I would assume you would get it if she had it. However, your genitalia is not really spreading respiratory disease and it doesn't take it in. I mean, how many times have you gotten a blowjob from a girl with a cold and not gotten a cold.

[QUOTE=DenHaag;2442764]Thank you so much for the reply Sirioja. You do not joke in my opinion. Paris Texas is indeed a great movie. It is make believe. Paris Arkansas and Berlin New Jersey really exist. This is no joke. You make faux-pas[/QUOTE]Hmm, having been in University in Texas, I'm familial with the city of Paris Texas. Oops. Search Maps on your smart phone. It will show up North East of Dallas.

I have read your posts on Avigan to treat COVID-19. The USA has started testing of Avigan as a treatment 2 days ago. It was interesting to read that the drug was approved I Japan as an Influenza anti-viral but stockpiled by the government and not released to pharmacies for issue.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2442854]For sure, with no kissing, no good old BJ, no DATY, but masks for both, gloves for both and condom, real erotic, sensual plastic sex, today I was right to prepare bicycle, more enjoyable to rub my balls on seat.[/QUOTE]Oh so you are allowed to do sport outside in Paris?

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2442852]Are you serious? Putting mask for sex in brothels, just ridiculous, when many guys ask for sex without condom. Girls don't tell you about? I m only sure about one thing, brothels are risky for health, why Germany made new law, even not really working, but when Italy extend to 3 May, France extend now to 11 May and restaurants, hotels, discotheques wil stay closed until at least mid July. If Germany which seem to manage quite well virus at the moment, allow paid sex soon, then they will have many very bad cases with old, fat, and from other diseases. They should then compete very fast with US. Guys who are not sure to be strongly healthy, should stay away, same if they have fragile relatives and don't want to lose them. New risky world now in FKK land.[/QUOTE]You can be fit + healthy and catch the virus without any obvious symptoms. The only possible way is immunity, if that really works.

Can the Admin perhaps create a separate thread for Coronavirus discussions and move all the posts to it --thus leaving this to the discussion of FKKs, girls and pay6?

I come to this forum to relax, not to discuss what I can do in the comments section of the Guardian or any newspaper!

[QUOTE=Kuni042;2442936]Yes. Some forms of sex games won't be safe. It is a bit at anyone's own risk. Similar risk exists in disco-dance clubs, if the dancers are starting to tongue-kiss, right? Similar risks exists in massage parlors (real ones), hair cutters, physio-therapists, etc.[/QUOTE]Brothels were already risky about Chlamydia which is really not good for wives about pregnancy, or some other diseases, not even telling once more about HIV when AO, but will be Russian roulette now if You are not protected versus virus. Best protection will be to have recovered from, because who can know when vaccine will be efficient, when many problems in France about grippe vaccine. If no self protection, I don t see how can protect for sex, then can catch and even give to relatives. In France, we are confined until 11 May and we have a problem, not even telling about economic crisis and unemployment, but only less than 15% people were in contact with virus and about 5% only are considered as protected from recovering, this meaning so many people can still catch it after 4 weeks confined, when risk start to be under control when 60% were in contact, so we are very far to be able to control virus, but just able to try to save life and some who arrive in hospitals, nobody was refused in France, have lungs destroyed by virus and doctors can't do anything, only to give them pills for pain when they can't anymore breathe.

[QUOTE=Chongmal;2442945]Hmm, having been in University in Texas, I'm familial with the city of Paris Texas. Oops. Search Maps on your smart phone. It will show up North East of Dallas.

I have read your posts on Avigan to treat COVID-19. The USA has started testing of Avigan as a treatment 2 days ago. It was interesting to read that the drug was approved I Japan as an Influenza anti-viral but stockpiled by the government and not released to pharmacies for issue.[/QUOTE]Avigan can only work for mild symptom, but better than nothing and Japan is giving out for free.

Till vaccines comes out, it may help a bit, hopefully. I hear it is expected to take about 1. 5 years for vaccines to be invented. Will world economy and FKK owners cash flow last for that long?

What are FKK cost when it is closed. Around 20 employees like reception, security etc. Property tax or rent if they are renting place etc. Maybe many new ownership to FKK after this crisis.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2442993]Oh so you are allowed to do sport outside in Paris?[/QUOTE]No it's not. It's only allowed if you stay around your home (max. 1 km) for maximum one hour.

[QUOTE=Kartoffel;2443007]You can be fit + healthy and catch the virus without any obvious symptoms. The only possible way is immunity, if that really works.[/QUOTE]Just like STD, but never caught anything in FKK.

[QUOTE=Jonodiera;2442942]I think the key is testing. Once you can test enough people daily, and I mean like 10% of the population per day so that you can quarantine everyone that gets sick right away, you should be able to get the R0 rate (average number of people each infected person infects) below 1 and the amount of cases will remain under control. You also need to be able to test for antibodies so that some people can be excluded from testing and just go on with life. FKKs will need to have a way to test all their girls and clients. I think this is the trick to FKKs being able to convince the government that they are not causing harm by spreading coronavirus. Today, testing needs to be done in a lab, but the ability to test on the spot and fast is being developed quickly.

Governments understand the importance of testing and it wouldn't surprise me if by summer, the ability to test quickly and on the spot is widespread. I suspect this is the next step in government response.

BTW. If a girl has already had it, she becomes the perfect WG at an FKK. She generally can't get it again and can't spread it to anyone again (assuming covid behaves like most viruses).

Also, sex with a face mask seems dumb. Most infections are caused by touching something that then gets into a your mouth, eye or nose. Can't very well have sex without touching. You can shower afterwards but I would assume you would get it if she had it. However, your genitalia is not really spreading respiratory disease and it doesn't take it in. I mean, how many times have you gotten a blowjob from a girl with a cold and not gotten a cold.[/QUOTE]There will be major cluster infections at hospital if you do that. It is important to stay home, close your eyes, imagine the time you had in FKK, use your imagination well for once and make good use of your right hand LOL!

[QUOTE=Sebastiane;2443037]Can the Admin perhaps create a separate thread for Coronavirus discussions and move all the posts to it --thus leaving this to the discussion of FKKs, girls and pay6?

I come to this forum to relax, not to discuss what I can do in the comments section of the Guardian or any newspaper![/QUOTE]This is true so please Mr. Sebastiane could you help people like me who come to this forum to relax by telling us your current experiences in FKK clubs in Germany now?

One possible idea is for FKK's at first to only use their outdoor areas to placate to government rules. Many have huts and cabins and people could just stay outside maybe under tent structures for shade, eating, drinking then pick out the girl and go to the hut with her. Hopefully if need be they can do this and get this shit going again.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2442993]Oh so you are allowed to do sport outside in Paris?[/QUOTE]I have no pleasure to bicycle in bois de Boulogne among prostitutes, and along Seine is really beautiful but not climby enough for me, I need to enjoy my beautiful mountains to be motivated. I just prepare my best Summer pleasure, to forget no ski so big frustration, killing mood, no desire to go to fuck escorts. I also listen to music, you should listen to Bowie funny it's no game from ashes to ashes, when he played with Carlos Alomar and Earl Slick, it was before great Turkish Erdal Kizilcay and Gail Ann Dorsey, for daddy, as they joked. Also Led Zeppelin with legendary Jimi Paige and forever, since I learned to play football, Californian Toto with family Porcaro, 3 brothers playing, pity Jeff who was the boss, but died at only 38 from cocaine, but they are with me, since St George and the dragon, for 42 years, I m faithful for everything, like for WGs. Other kind of pleasures, far from my huge week end datcha.

[QUOTE=MaxSquatter;2443199]One possible idea is for FKK's at first to only use their outdoor areas to placate to government rules. Many have huts and cabins and people could just stay outside maybe under tent structures for shade, eating, drinking then pick out the girl and go to the hut with her. Hopefully if need be they can do this and get this shit going again.[/QUOTE]And one girl infected will kill how many old, fat, diabetic, tired heart, smoker?

[QUOTE=Kartoffel;2443007]You can be fit + healthy and catch the virus without any obvious symptoms. The only possible way is immunity, if that really works.[/QUOTE]Everybody and even children can catch it, even tigers in NYC zoo, but being fit, healthy, not smoker will help to survive. To my opinion, old, fat and not healthy will now play Russian roulettes in brothels, when will be impossible to blood test everybody and other tests, most from China, are not reliable. Best safety is to have recovered from.

[QUOTE=Sebastiane;2443037]Can the Admin perhaps create a separate thread for Coronavirus discussions and move all the posts to it --thus leaving this to the discussion of FKKs, girls and pay6?
I come to this forum to relax, not to discuss what I can do in the comments section of the Guardian or any news-paper![/QUOTE][QUOTE=Turgid;2443097]This is true so please Mr. Sebastiane could you help people like me who come to this forum to relax by telling us your current experiences in FKK clubs in Germany now?[/QUOTE]Please spare true members any bogus confrontation which is so not good. It is as Mr. Trump says "fake news". We know. Why not just send private message to Admin and request for a separate thread for Coronavirus? Why drama? No need. If nuclear bomb were about to fall on planet and FKK closed, some sad guy would be writing about it here even though only 5 seconds to live remaining. Same with virus talk with no finish. Ridiculous. Boring. But yes, separate Coronavirus thread is needed for all of ISG. To keep this chat in one place. Just like safe sex thread for all ISG. This would be so perfect.

Another theory, as put forth by the Washington Post: [URL]https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/state-department-cables-warned-safety-issues-wuhan-lab-studying-bat-coronaviruses/[/URL].

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2443204]I have no pleasure to bicycle in bois de Boulogne among prostitutes, and along Seine is really beautiful but not climby enough for me, I need to enjoy my beautiful mountains to be motivated. I just prepare my best Summer pleasure, to forget no ski so big frustration, killing mood, no desire to go to fuck escorts. I also listen to music, you should listen to Bowie funny it's no game from ashes to ashes, when he played with Carlos Alomar and Earl Slick, it was before great Turkish Erdal Kizilcay and Gail Ann Dorsey, for daddy, as they joked. Also Led Zeppelin with legendary Jimi Paige and forever, since I learned to play football, Californian Toto with family Porcaro, 3 brothers playing, pity Jeff who was the boss, but died at only 38 from cocaine, but they are with me, since St George and the dragon, for 42 years, I m faithful for everything, like for WGs. Other kind of pleasures, far from my huge week end datcha.[/QUOTE]My song for the moment, from Toto: girl goodbye.

[QUOTE=DenHaag;2443233]Please spare true members any bogus confrontation which is so not good. It is as Mr. Trump says "fake news". We know. Why not just send private message to Admin and request for a separate thread for Coronavirus? Why drama? No need. If nuclear bomb were about to fall on planet and FKK closed, some sad guy would be writing about it here even though only 5 seconds to live remaining. Same with virus talk with no finish. Ridiculous. Boring. But yes, separate Coronavirus thread is needed for all of ISG. To keep this chat in one place. Just like safe sex thread for all ISG. This would be so perfect.[/QUOTE]Do you have new interesting experience to tell us about FKK at the moment? More interesting than how virus is impacting all over the world with so many deaths and unemployed, some in US or Italy who don t have to eat. At the moment, virus interest me more than brohels, much more interesting than prostitutes. Since a while, I m discovering I m able to live without sex, I waited to go to a Russian escort to be able to re start my job, needing 2 weeks, and again 2 weeks since then. Now I m preparing my mind for my Summer tour, also more interesting than brothels for me, and my girls know they can t compete with ski and bicycle. Will be so happy to see my Dolomiti friends, Im happy they are safe.

I'm not saying that cvirus its not dangerous.

It s especially for middle aged and old men.

I m 55 from Italy.

But right now I smell the same stink when HIV outbreaks in '80.

They said you can catch from a kiss from, from a lick etc.

Instead the top danger is from a transfusion or at the dentist.

Now everyone knows that the most dangerous is a bareback sodomitation, for the receivers.

So poisoned my best fucking years.

Austria will be out soon, maybe restart FKK in July, but for sure not for Italy.

Italy not have FKK, only lousy ***** in apartments.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2442993]Oh so you are allowed to do sport outside in Paris?[/QUOTE]Going outside to make sport is now, since about 1 week, forbidden in Paris and close west suburb, from 10 am to 7 pm. And doctors tell when making sport, better to stay about 8 meters away from others, when you see crowded Central Park or Hyde Park. After 1 month confined, would have saved about 3000 life when would be 16000 deaths today. And hundreds billions € lost or spent. How will it be paid? Because somebody always have to pay at the end. FKK are only second ranking thinking. Even before virus, no pleasure for sport in Paris, among cars, I prefer my friends marmots, they are so fat on Summer.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2443334]Going outside to make sport is now, since about 1 week, forbidden in Paris and close west suburb, from 10 am to 7 pm. And doctors tell when making sport, better to stay about 8 meters away from others, when you see crowded Central Park or Hyde Park. After 1 month confined, would have saved about 3000 life when would be 16000 deaths today. And hundreds billions lost or spent. How will it be paid? Because somebody always have to pay at the end. FKK are only second ranking thinking. Even before virus, no pleasure for sport in Paris, among cars, I prefer my friends marmots, they are so fat on Summer.[/QUOTE]It is like prison literally.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2443204]I have no pleasure to bicycle in bois de Boulogne among prostitutes, and along Seine is really beautiful but not climby enough for me, I need to enjoy my beautiful mountains to be motivated. I just prepare my best Summer pleasure, to forget no ski so big frustration, killing mood, no desire to go to fuck escorts. I also listen to music, you should listen to Bowie funny it's no game from ashes to ashes, when he played with Carlos Alomar and Earl Slick, it was before great Turkish Erdal Kizilcay and Gail Ann Dorsey, for daddy, as they joked. Also Led Zeppelin with legendary Jimi Paige and forever, since I learned to play football, Californian Toto with family Porcaro, 3 brothers playing, pity Jeff who was the boss, but died at only 38 from cocaine, but they are with me, since St George and the dragon, for 42 years, I m faithful for everything, like for WGs. Other kind of pleasures, far from my huge week end datcha.[/QUOTE]Datcha as in russian second house retreat like with sauna?

Bicycle, you often take your bicycle to your FKK trip right? You got stamina, you drive, bike and fuck and sleep in car over weekend for your FKK trip and you are back in office on Monday?

From next week, Germany is going to start relaxing the lockdown very slowly. [URL]https://www.thelocal.de/20200415/latest-germany-to-begin-easing-coronavirus-curbs-in-coming-weeks[/URL] It's a small start with openings staged like schools on May 4.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2443414]Datcha as in russian second house retreat like with sauna?

Bicycle, you often take your bicycle to your FKK trip right? You got stamina, you drive, bike and fuck and sleep in car over weekend for your FKK trip and you are back in office on Monday?[/QUOTE]I don't bicycle more in Germany than in Paris, because not interesting, but I remember driving from Dusseldorf to French Alps or Mont Ventoux, more than 1000 kms, through Switzerland, at night, to climb on next day, since nearly 10 years, I m afraid to sleep, I relax and rest more full speeding. Sometimes, I sleep few seconds, micro sleep, under BJ, I remember one at World, when I took her at 3 am, asking me: you don't like? I liked, she made me rest for few seconds. But when you don't sleep, you have more time to live.

Here you will find a quick overview (in German) of the current status: [URL]https://www.bild.de/politik/inland/politik-inland/lockerungs-plan-der-bundesregierung-so-legt-deutschland-langsam-wieder-los-70068100.bild.html[/URL].

I'm encouraged by the fact that brothels seem to be treated quite similarly to bars, discos, clubs etc and are for the time being closed until May 3. This means the restrictions will be reviewed every two to three weeks, and possibly also on a state by state basis. I am almost certain they will be closed for longer than May 3. , but at least they have not been banned until August 31, as has happened with concerts, festivals and other large events.

Of course, another current obstacle for us non-Germans will be the travel restrictions and restrictions of hotel bookings for tourist purposes. Even if these start to get eased off somewhat, one may still be subject to two weeks of self-quarantine upon arrival in Germany and / or when returning home.

We'll just have to wait and see. The positive thing from yesterday is that (currently at least) we are not seeing a ban on FKKs until end of summer and beyond.

Finally, Japan acknowledges the reality. I know Mr Ho was proud of his country but the reality is that no one is immune and it is better to tackle this virus earlier than later. Japan is not fully locking down as we did in some places in the West. Perhaps they will do so eventually. But cases are growing fast, and they will find even more positive infections as they ramp their testing.

[URL]https://www.wsj.com/articles/japans-abe-to-declare-nationwide-state-of-emergency-11587027219?mod=hp_lead_pos3[/URL]

[QUOTE=KelVarnsen;2443646]Here you will find a quick overview (in German) of the current status: [URL]https://www.bild.de/politik/inland/politik-inland/lockerungs-plan-der-bundesregierung-so-legt-deutschland-langsam-wieder-los-70068100.bild.html[/URL].

I'm encouraged by the fact that brothels seem to be treated quite similarly to bars, discos, clubs etc and are for the time being closed until May 3. This means the restrictions will be reviewed every two to three weeks, and possibly also on a state by state basis. I am almost certain they will be closed for longer than May 3. , but at least they have not been banned until August 31, as has happened with concerts, festivals and other large events.

Of course, another current obstacle for us non-Germans will be the travel restrictions and restrictions of hotel bookings for tourist purposes. Even if these start to get eased off somewhat, one may still be subject to two weeks of self-quarantine upon arrival in Germany and / or when returning home.

We'll just have to wait and see. The positive thing from yesterday is that (currently at least) we are not seeing a ban on FKKs until end of summer and beyond.[/QUOTE]Yes, it does seem by some point in May / June we should be back to normal as far as FKKs are concerned.

I just read an interesting article about the resurgence of COVID-19 in Japan. It compared the initial success to that of South Korea (ROK). Continuing it highlighted the difference between ROK and Japan. ROK has maintained an aggressive testing campaign and Japan has been conducting minimal testing. In ROK the elections were dominated by the party that controlled the COVID-19 response. I read in Japan a nation wide state of emergency has been declared. Interestingly, in the US news the story Mr Ho told of the virus escaping from the Wuhan Lab is being echoed. Hmmm.

On another note, this virus doesn't care about your health, how many miles you drive to cycle 20000 km per year and ski down 10000 km vertical elevation. It can get into your system, on your clothes, in your car and jump off to numerous people who may cross your path. Remember the ancient Chinese concept, Six degrees of separation. Yes, I know, Hollywood has stolen it, bands have stolen it. But it is Chinese. I'm the fat, American, with diabetes, high blood pressure, heart failure. I'm also the guy who would go to a club and spend 3 hours in the room with Kitty 3 days after having angioplasty. Yes, I had to take some breaks but I didn't mind paying for the time with her, and I feel a bit sorry for the fellows who had to wait.

Will the German and Dutch clients who meet the same description as me return to GT, absolutely, and I will join them. We will be welcomed back by management and the ladies. GT is familiar with the procedure to call the wagon to pick up the tote.

Speaking of GT ladies, I forgot to mention Kate in my top sessions there, and also at Velbert. She did something no other lady had done. While I was giving her my best, she reached for my arm and guided my hand to her throat. Shortly after she washed my dick and balls with her orgasmus. Whoever taught her this, thank you.

Maybe brothels which are mostly Romanian business, with big money leaving Germany to Romania, are not major point at the moment in Germany, even they manage quite well, but would they be able to manage spreading in brothels land, with a girl fucked more than 5 times per day, with guys from Asia, even EU borders should be closed for months.

[QUOTE=Chongmal;2443741]I just read an interesting article about the resurgence of COVID-19 in Japan. It compared the initial success to that of South Korea (ROK). Continuing it highlighted the difference between ROK and Japan. ROK has maintained an aggressive testing campaign and Japan has been conducting minimal testing. In ROK the elections were dominated by the party that controlled the COVID-19 response. I read in Japan a nation wide state of emergency has been declared. Interestingly, in the US news the story Mr Ho told of the virus escaping from the Wuhan Lab is being echoed. Hmmm.

On another note, this virus doesn't care about your health, how many miles you drive to cycle 20000 km per year and ski down 10000 km vertical elevation. It can get into your system, on your clothes, in your car and jump off to numerous people who may cross your path. Remember the ancient Chinese concept, Six degrees of separation. Yes, I know, Hollywood has stolen it, bands have stolen it. But it is Chinese. I'm the fat, American, with diabetes, high blood pressure, heart failure. I'm also the guy who would go to a club and spend 3 hours in the room with Kitty 3 days after having angioplasty. Yes, I had to take some breaks but I didn't mind paying for the time with her, and I feel a bit sorry for the fellows who had to wait.

Will the German and Dutch clients who meet the same description as me return to GT, absolutely, and I will join them. We will be welcomed back by management and the ladies. GT is familiar with the procedure to call the wagon to pick up the tote..[/QUOTE]Well, one thing Japan failed is that we did not block foreign visitors till like around March including Chinese visitors. As for lock down we cannot force people here, but we have about 70 to 80 % less movement of people according to google and yahoo using their GPS system. Plus we need to secure cash to secure employments people around world as we have mega companies who employ millions of people around world, and corona also kill people financially, so keeping these mega companies alive is also important to save lives and keep world moving during global lock down. So we do balanced lock down.

As for medicine, we have avigan that is made by fuji film Japan and it is working on mild symptom people, but we are saving it for later in most cases till patients are admitted into hospital and we don't take everyone in to protect medical infrastructure. We are giving avigan for free including to Germany as they requested, it is in mass production now and it is ready to be shipped to around 20 nations so far for free in May.

As for test, we don't test everyone as it will only cause people to rush to hospitals and lead to cluster infections and eventually death and destruction of medical infrastructure. However, we strongly focus on avoiding death as we can save people by acting properly, which include not testing everyone as they request, but make them stay home.

As for lab, I still believe it is leaked or some kind of misconduct of dead testing animal body after lab use in Wuhan, there is lab near fish market there. Of course it is not deliberate, Chinese government is not crazy as doing such thing on purpose. But their rapid movements in south China sea is still going on and our submarine and battle ships has to deployed, so they are provoking during this crisis too especially after one of US air craft carrier has been disabled with corona infection.

Japan still are more or less normal beside now most shops and restaurants are closed and apparently Japanese government is giving about 1000 USD per person with no condition, so that is good news, it is almost two FKK days for me, it is ashamed FKK is closed to spend that 1000 USD on fucking German or Romanian beautiful girls to pump up my immune system LOL!

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2443703]Finally, Japan acknowledges the reality. I know Mr Ho was proud of his country but the reality is that no one is immune and it is better to tackle this virus earlier than later. Japan is not fully locking down as we did in some places in the West. Perhaps they will do so eventually. But cases are growing fast, and they will find even more positive infections as they ramp their testing.

[URL]https://www.wsj.com/articles/japans-abe-to-declare-nationwide-state-of-emergency-11587027219?mod=hp_lead_pos3[/URL][/QUOTE]No country is above, US and UK are down under virus. I'm sad for my country when we will be much over 20000, with so many unemployed and economy will be down under. If I could, I would go on 3500 meters high Girose glacier on top of La Grave La Meije, would make a hole in snow, would go in and stay there, at least wonderful there. I miss so much not being there on this Winter, my paradise.

[QUOTE=TheCane;2443235]Another theory, as put forth by the Washington Post: [URL]https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/state-department-cables-warned-safety-issues-wuhan-lab-studying-bat-coronaviruses/[/URL].[/QUOTE]Ya lahwy! If I were the Chinese government right now I would be soo embarrassed. I would feel like the guy who let his trash blow out over everybody else's lawn.

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2443703]Finally, Japan acknowledges the reality. I know Mr Ho was proud of his country but the reality is that no one is immune and it is better to tackle this virus earlier than later. Japan is not fully locking down as we did in some places in the West. Perhaps they will do so eventually. But cases are growing fast, and they will find even more positive infections as they ramp their testing.

[URL]https://www.wsj.com/articles/japans-abe-to-declare-nationwide-state-of-emergency-11587027219?mod=hp_lead_pos3[/URL][/QUOTE]Well, the reality is the situation here is actually fine, man I live here LOL. Shops are closed and restaurants are closed mostly, but rest are almost as it was beside much less people on the street. But let see how it will turn out, we had this since January from China longer than west, and we are doing much better, I mean look at the mess in some western nations, it is crazy.

Again, we cannot fully lock down, it is democratic nation here, we cannot force people to stay home legally, but we can legally ask and disciplined as Japanese are, we are more or less following.

Travel the world once this is over and know the world, and don't just swallow media. When fukushima happened, many western media were reporting people were coughing blood in Tokyo. Nobody was coughing blood in Tokyo or even in fukushima LOL, day after fukushima, I went and bought new computers I remember LOL.

Western media are trying to put the eyes on other nations for their mess up, I mean look at New York, it is war zone now if what I am seeing about their hospitals on their own media are true. Also Spain, Italy etc. Italy do not deserve to be in G7 after this, they do not have infrastructure to be in G7. For the record I love Italy.

[QUOTE=Sebastiane;2443738]Yes, it does seem by some point in May / June we should be back to normal as far as FKKs are concerned.[/QUOTE]Anyway EU borders should be closed for months. If FKK can really reopen soon, I doubt for quite soon because risky places, when Germans don t give enough and not big money enough business, some Asian hunters should miss their easy business. Wait and see for what will be FKK future. On 13/14 March, Sharks reminded me a bit what it was on 2014/2015, even not same level for looks, but I was lucky to see German Tabea just starting and initiate her for her first room at Sharks, for 1 full hour, kissing all along, with a bad guy like me. Long time, I didn't have such enjoyment at Sharks, even had already 2 high level rooms on this year, 1 with real woman Vivien, but too professional for a little terror in bed as she said, when Tabea was so fresh behavior for sex, not a German robot, kind of Romanian passion. My pleasure to pay for this level.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2443817]Ya lahwy! If I were the Chinese government right now I would be soo embarrassed. I would feel like the guy who let his trash blow out over everybody else's lawn.[/QUOTE]When will be much more than 100.000 deaths in US and Western Europe, when we receive tests which are for 60% not reliable, in France a 16 yo girl was tested twice negative in hospital, but died from covid, UK received 3,5 millions tests not reliable, for our safety, for our health, for our standards of quality and reliability, for our economy, maybe Western world should think very fast not to be anymore so dependent about East, when we really don t have same standards. Only Japan is on our standards for quality even different culture and way of life. Same like in brothels, cheap is expensive for me when low quality. A GND for 50 is more expensive for me than a wow for more than 50 . Of course, many WGs are happy with East level, for big money easy business, not caring much about virus, but they are out of real life, this is not a real job, just for fast money.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2443817]Ya lahwy! If I were the Chinese government right now I would be soo embarrassed. I would feel like the guy who let his trash blow out over everybody else's lawn.[/QUOTE]I think the CCP intentionally let the virus escape outside of China (not inside) because they knew it was going to be a massive problem for the country and at least if the rest of the world had it to, it would level the playing field.

Germany's border is still open for dutch and belgian. I personally find this totally nuts. It shows that the good numbers are not driven by great politicians, but simply by luck, and great testing.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2443899]Anyway EU borders should be closed for months. If FKK can really reopen soon, I doubt for quite soon because risky places, when Germans don t give enough and not big money enough business, some Asian hunters should miss their easy business. Wait and see for what will be FKK future. On 13/14 March, Sharks reminded me a bit what it was on 2014/2015, even not same level for looks, but I was lucky to see German Tabea just starting and initiate her for her first room at Sharks, for 1 full hour, kissing all along, with a bad guy like me. Long time, I didn't have such enjoyment at Sharks, even had already 2 high level rooms on this year, 1 with real woman Vivien, but too professional for a little terror in bed as she said, when Tabea was so fresh behavior for sex, not a German robot, kind of Romanian passion. My pleasure to pay for this level.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=MrHo;2443845]Well, the reality is the situation here is actually fine, man I live here LOL. Shops are closed and restaurants are closed mostly, but rest are almost as it was beside much less people on the street. But let see how it will turn out, we had this since January from China longer than west, and we are doing much better, I mean look at the mess in some western nations, it is crazy.

Again, we cannot fully lock down, it is democratic nation here, we cannot force people to stay home legally, but we can legally ask and disciplined as Japanese are, we are more or less following.

Travel the world once this is over and know the world, and don't just swallow media. When fukushima happened, many western media were reporting people were coughing blood in Tokyo. Nobody was coughing blood in Tokyo or even in fukushima LOL, day after fukushima, I went and bought new computers I remember LOL.

Western media are trying to put the eyes on other nations for their mess up, I mean look at New York, it is war zone now if what I am seeing about their hospitals on their own media are true. Also Spain, Italy etc. Italy do not deserve to be in G7 after this, they do not have infrastructure to be in G7. For the record I love Italy.[/QUOTE]I have traveled to Japan, Mr. Ho. Not this year, but in my lifetime, yes. BTW, you say don't trust the media reports and then you say "look at NY! It is a war zone, Spain, Italy, etc". Did you travel to those countries this year, or are your comments based on what you read in media?

Japan per capita GDP is only 10% higher than Italy, per World Bank. Perhaps you don't trust World Bank also, because you may not trust any source that does not show Japan at the top. UK and France are richer than Japan on per capita GDP, Germany is 20% higher than Japan, and US is 50% higher. I can give you the link if you want to see it yourself.

Anyway, it is good to know that life feels normal to you in Japan. We do not wish them any bad things, Americans feel Japan is an ally.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2443817]Ya lahwy! If I were the Chinese government right now I would be soo embarrassed. I would feel like the guy who let his trash blow out over everybody else's lawn.[/QUOTE]If you were then maybe yes, but I think Chinese government and riches that belong to them will begin to buy out weaken foreign companies once this crisis is over.

Plus Chinese navy is making rapid moves now in south China sea especially after one of US aircraft carrier is taken out by corona virus.

Chinese government is part of so called red team, so they only see weakness as opportunity.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2443845]Well, the reality is the situation here is actually fine, man I live here LOL. Shops are closed and restaurants are closed mostly, but rest are almost as it was beside much less people on the street. But let see how it will turn out, we had this since January from China longer than west, and we are doing much better, I mean look at the mess in some western nations, it is crazy.

Again, we cannot fully lock down, it is democratic nation here, we cannot force people to stay home legally, but we can legally ask and disciplined as Japanese are, we are more or less following.

Travel the world once this is over and know the world, and don't just swallow media. When fukushima happened, many western media were reporting people were coughing blood in Tokyo. Nobody was coughing blood in Tokyo or even in fukushima LOL, day after fukushima, I went and bought new computers I remember LOL.

Western media are trying to put the eyes on other nations for their mess up, I mean look at New York, it is war zone now if what I am seeing about their hospitals on their own media are true. Also Spain, Italy etc. Italy do not deserve to be in G7 after this, they do not have infrastructure to be in G7. For the record I love Italy.[/QUOTE]Ho,

Most powerful country is not Japan, but US and they are down under virus, unemployment and misery for many. My meaning is no country is above, not even my country. In France, doctors use chloroquine and pills used for HIV to try to save worst cases, we have free beds, the highest level medical equipment, I would not go in any other country for medical level, nevertheless, unfortunately, every day too many people die from covid in french hospitals and doctors can t save them. 80 % are more than 70 and for others, 67% had health problems. In my opinion, except maybe Germany, but all others in G7 are losing the war. Italy were first, US don t manage better, no competition, but big defeat with so many deaths. Only interesting point for me is virus show how is society in our country. To defeat this virus, society is more important than medical level and pills.

[QUOTE=Kuni042;2443944]Germany's border is still open for dutch and belgian. I personally find this totally nuts. It shows that the good numbers are not driven by great politicians, but simply by luck, and great testing.[/QUOTE]Small Belgium have more than 5000 deaths now, for 11 millions people, versus less than 5000 in big Germany. More 3000 in NL. This is Europe. My meaning was borders should stay closed for a while between Europe and outside.

Under pressure, China found many more deaths and I m sure they should find more.

Ten to fifteen times more, probably.

The German authorities seem to be confident that they have things under control. I hope they are right, and that things remain under control in FKKland. One step closer to getting back to our "hobby".

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2443817]Ya lahwy! If I were the Chinese government right now I would be soo embarrassed. I would feel like the guy who let his trash blow out over everybody else's lawn.[/QUOTE]Or as half-Chinese Gordon Chang puts it in an interview recently: They decided to use it as a weapon in order to level the financial playing field after they first saw how badly it had hit themselves.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2443978]Ho,

Most powerful country is not Japan, but US and they are down under virus, unemployment and misery for many. My meaning is no country is above, not even my country. In France, doctors use chloroquine and pills used for HIV to try to save worst cases, we have free beds, the highest level medical equipment, I would not go in any other country for medical level, nevertheless, unfortunately, every day too many people die from covid in french hospitals and doctors can t save them. 80 % are more than 70 and for others, 67% had health problems. In my opinion, except maybe Germany, but all others in G7 are losing the war. Italy were first, US don t manage better, no competition, but big defeat with so many deaths. Only interesting point for me is virus show how is society in our country. To defeat this virus, society is more important than medical level and pills.[/QUOTE]I know USA is the most powerful nation in the world. And Japan and USA are best friend. I think at least G7 should get along on intellectual manner because most nations are on same level on intellect, manner, culture, civilization, technology, medical etc. But we all are different as well.

Japan do not have this white western ego of invading world, we tend to be more team player than west, but west tend to have attitude most of time, and we most have to time adjust the behavior.

For Medic in G7, Japan, Germany and USA has the most of pharma and medical equipment companies that are top notch, but we all sell and collaborate with each other, so hospital levels are all similar level with similar equipment, it is just that some nations are more organized than others, which showed in this case. Japan focused on death rate, not so much on infection rate which is hard to control, but death we can control by protecting medical system and let those who can be fixed to stay home with medication like Avigan made by Fuji film Japan.

Avigan works for first 6 weeks of symptom so far, but it is not medicine made for this, it was made for bird influenza, so bat is close.

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2443948]I have traveled to Japan, Mr. Ho. Not this year, but in my lifetime, yes. BTW, you say don't trust the media reports and then you say "look at NY! It is a war zone, Spain, Italy, etc". Did you travel to those countries this year, or are your comments based on what you read in media?

Japan per capita GDP is only 10% higher than Italy, per World Bank. Perhaps you don't trust World Bank also, because you may not trust any source that does not show Japan at the top. UK and France are richer than Japan on per capita GDP, Germany is 20% higher than Japan, and US is 50% higher. I can give you the link if you want to see it yourself.

Anyway, it is good to know that life feels normal to you in Japan. We do not wish them any bad things, Americans feel Japan is an ally.[/QUOTE]USA is out biggest and best ally and this will be so forever.

Look, Japan, USA, Germany are the biggest countries by far with our structures of the nation, we cover all major areas of industries from medical, technologies to even fashion to whatever you want to name and when it comes to Nobel award, we are the only Asian nation who keep on winning Nobel award is most prestigious area which is chemistry and physics. However, if you are in G5 nations before G7, these G5 nations are most civilized even though we have different culture.

It is not all GDP, it is just number, if you believe G7 is just GDP, then you need to wake up little bit with propaganda. G7 is not just GDP as they claim it is. Don't believe in all things they throw at you. Look, with your logic, China would be in G7 long time ago, but there is reason why China is not in G7. Either way, only nation which is bigger capacity than Japan is USA and it will always will be and it should be USA who is king of this world. China is big, but it is just a size, quantity, but no quality.

Italy is good country, I love their food, culture and people, I traveled from calabria in south to few cities in north for holiday, but not this year, do I have to go to these nations every year, if I don't go you use it as your argument point? LOL USA too, I been to many cities in USA both east and west and even sedona Arizona and Utah etc. For holiday, but man again do I have to go every year? This year I went to doha, Budapest and zurich and yes it was good my dick getting sucked LOL!

Don't believe in everything that is written, we are fine so far and we had this much longer than you since China is right next to us, but that does not mean it is going to be OK and we are trying to prepare ourselves with best of our abilities, but expecting difficult time ahead, I hope we are going to be OK, but we are not so hopeful.

And hey, be kind to Japan, it is a small nation in far east that rose to be top nation bigger than most beside USA with our intellect, hard work, team work, good quality, creativity, and most importantly honest among other things, we did not build all these mega companies for no solid reason as good intelligent nation. In Europe, German has similar structure to Japan, they also cover most area of industries, some they are bigger, but in most we are bigger whether it is banks, fashion or whatever. Let see, now Japan we going to open door to immigration, something we did not do till recently, we studied from European mistakes, so let see if immigration will work out fine with Japan in few decades time, we try to choose more carefully than Europe, arguably LOL.

[QUOTE=TheCane;2444054]The German authorities seem to be confident that they have things under control. I hope they are right, and that things remain under control in FKKland. One step closer to getting back to our "hobby".[/QUOTE]For any country, it is hard to control infection rate, I mean only thing fed can do is ask or force people to stay home which they have done, but some entities has to go on like infrastructure related companies, mega companies, transportation etc.

But we can control the death rate by not destroying medical infrastructure and also having good hospital to begin with. There are very few nations who can cope with such sudden required production of medical equipment like life supporting system, artificial lung system etc. Only nations with good high tech industries.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2444085]I know USA is the most powerful nation in the world. And Japan and USA are best friend. I think at least G7 should get along on intellectual manner because most nations are on same level on intellect, manner, culture, civilization, technology, medical etc. But we all are different as well.

Japan do not have this white western ego of invading world, we tend to be more team player than west, but west tend to have attitude most of time, and we most have to time adjust the behavior.

For Medic in G7, Japan, Germany and USA has the most of pharma and medical equipment companies that are top notch, but we all sell and collaborate with each other, so hospital levels are all similar level with similar equipment, it is just that some nations are more organized than others, which showed in this case. Japan focused on death rate, not so much on infection rate which is hard to control, but death we can control by protecting medical system and let those who can be fixed to stay home with medication like Avigan made by Fuji film Japan.

Avigan works for first 6 weeks of symptom so far, but it is not medicine made for this, it was made for bird influenza, so bat is close.[/QUOTE]But most powerful is not able to manage virus, with their town number 1 giving scary images to the world, with fridge trucks in streets, with Hart island for poor. I really don t wish them, because I would probably not be French without them, Europe might be very different without them, but I m afraid they could be over 50000 deaths, with so many poor who can t afford to go to hospital, keeping on working to have to eat, when unemployment is exploding there. When the most powerful is the worst since weeks. Of course, we won't compare to China, because I think everybody and our politics understood what kind of danger they can be. Have now to think about less dependence and more protection, we are not in same world. Virus is like miror for our society, much more than our medical level, and they are discovering in France, when 80% deaths are over 70 yo, and 67% under 70 had already health problems, but 50% of the worst cases under 70 are suffering obesity, even in France, more and more obese, eating on US way since they are child: MacDo for gift in foods, Cola, when we have best gastronomy in France, but US culture spreading in France, making more and more obese who are vulnerable to virus. This virus would not only kill fragile lungs, but could also infect blood for some cases when doctors didn't understand what happened for some quite young, seeming healthy, who died. I wish, if we lost, but at least could learn from what happen. As we say in sport, we learn more from a defeat than when we win.

So make the picture.

Austria and Germany quickly to a new normality.

And don t forget that Germany have a big Pharma industry for all the equipment e the vaccine.

For the hospital never had ICU problem.

So poor Italy, please don't censored this because I m Italian, with its lousy health system and politicians, e 1/3 of the country mafialand. Will be the first to entry in crisis and the last to exit.

For 1 or 2 years no more Italian customers in FKK.

Finally, US is seeking to investigate laboratory in Wuhan I have been saying from the beginning. I do not think it was deliberately leaked, but leaked by mistake due to misconduct.

It was originally french who helped Chinese to make this lab and french backed off, then Chinese just began running the lab themselves. If french stayed on to managed the plant, it would have been better managed lab, but let see if USA can prove that it was leaked. I don't think it will be opened to public though, they will just use it as a car for foreign affair negotiation against Chinese, which USA should do.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2444238]Finally, US is seeking to investigate laboratory in Wuhan I have been saying from the beginning. I do not think it was deliberately leaked, but leaked by mistake due to misconduct.

It was originally french who helped Chinese to make this lab and french backed off, then Chinese just began running the lab themselves. If french stayed on to managed the plant, it would have been better managed lab, but let see if USA can prove that it was leaked. I don't think it will be opened to public though, they will just use it as a car for foreign affair negotiation against Chinese, which USA should do.[/QUOTE]China claim US brought it, US claim other, don't believe all what is told or written, same than here. I just think now the world know China lied to protect their already falling economy and keeping on producing not reliable tests, with people tested negative and dying from covid. I think this is now time to protect versus lies, not to be so dependant about safety, health. We don t all have same standards and level for quality, reliability. Now, this is new world with virus working around, not so sure even having recovered will make full safe, even french doctors think to use plasma to cure. I think FKK land will now be risky playfield if you are not a survivor healthy warrior with no relatives, because when will reopen, even with EU borders closed for months, but such playfield to spread so fast and around when returning at home, but as I went to a escort under confined, but since more than 2 weeks now, I look if she is still available and I m happy for her she is, when she is only 19, too young to die from virus in Paris, as soon it will reopen, I will go to Germany, Switzerland, Austria which should open first, and Spain for Slavians. But better to know about risk for health, for relatives. Even with vaccine, if ever, if virus don t mutate before, just impossible for everybody but only risky people like versus grippe. But on the other hand, no need to be paranoiac, can die while sleeping. When I grew up, I read, I heard so much about US paranoia about what was behind the wall. Now we know, not because Russian women are much prettier and elegant than Americans, even despite Putin, but Russia is so much more interesting for culture, for a french like me, even I thank US to be a free French.

Salaam zusammen,

As you know it's been hard to know the fatality rate of Coronavirus, and the figures have been all over the place. Part of the problem is that they've only been testing people who show up in hospital with bad symptoms, so we don't know how many people in the general public are infected.

However, a recent study has shed some light on this:

[URL]https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/17/health/santa-clara-coronavirus-infections-study/index.html[/URL]

According to scientists testing for antibodies, in Santa Clara county, on April 1 between 48,000 and 81,000 people were infected. That sounds huge, but the good news is that only 50 people had died. So that's a fatality rate of under 0. 1%. That's the same as the death rate for common flu.

If you are under 50, your risk probably goes down to 0. 01%. If you're under 30,0. 001%.

Why have the governments of the world been so slow to do studies like the Santa Clara one? Why have they been so slow to test in general? Why are they not being honest about the death rate? We all heard the 3. 4% figure, right? But it's not true.

I suspect that if young people knew how small the risks are to them, they would be much more reluctant to shutter up their restaurants, stop going to parties, etc. The lockdown would not seem justified.

But it's the elderly who make the decisions. I've said that the solution to the crisis is simply to quarantine the elderly. But politicians will not consider this option, because it means that they themselves will be isolated. Politicians have meetings all day, and their credibility rests on that. Do you think Donald Trump would agree to go into isolation and participate only by videoconferencing for the next year, while younger wolves asserted themselves physically in the White House? It's the same with all politicians. They are obsessed with power: that's how they got to where they are. So their attitude is: "If we go into isolation, everybody goes into isolation!" They won't loosen their grip for an instant.

[QUOTE=DeltaIndigo;2442488]
What you say might work, and I think there is a chance I already had this and my symptoms were very mild. However I will tell you that given the unpredictable nature of the symptoms, even I who is relatively young and quite physically fit would not risk deliberately getting this. I know people who have tested positive for it and recovered with relatively mild symptoms.[/QUOTE]Salaam Mr Indigo, I would ask you (and others) if you accept the statistics above, and if so do you still plan to curtail your mongering life? Me, I see no reason to. I will try to see how I can go on as normal. I continue to believe that sex is the healthiest physical activity there is. The long drought of sex is drying me out on the inside. I have to replenish my mojo.

I repeat that young women have very strong immune systems. Even if a WG got the virus, the chances are her system battled with it for one day, defeated it, produced antibodies, and she never even noticed this was going on because there were no symptoms.

Yes, 3. 4% is a shitty number. That even the WHO quoted. It was most stupid, to take just confirmed cases divid it by the death toll.

But no, the death rate is certainly nothing like a normal flu. There is one famous Heinsberg study in Germany, which was also quite thorough and here the numbers are more like 0. 4% - but you know that is still 10 x higher than severe flu. And that explains why they have a hard time carrying away dead bodies from certain hospitals, where it hit particular hard.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2444323]Salaam zusammen,

As you know it's been hard to know the fatality rate of Coronavirus, and the figures have been all over the place. Part of the problem is that they've only been testing people who show up in hospital with bad symptoms, so we don't know how many people in the general public are infected.

However, a recent study has shed some light on this:

[URL]https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/17/health/santa-clara-coronavirus-infections-study/index.html[/URL]

According to scientists testing for antibodies, in Santa Clara county, on April 1 between 48,000 and 81,000 people were infected. That sounds huge, but the good news is that only 50 people had died. So that's a fatality rate of under 0. 1%. That's the same as the death rate for common flu.

If you are under 50, your risk probably goes down to 0. 01%. If you're under 30,0. 001%.

Why have the governments of the world been so slow to do studies like the Santa Clara one? Why have they been so slow to test in general? Why are they not being honest about the death rate? We all heard the 3. 4% figure, right? But it's not true.

[/QUOTE]

This Spahn-dude (health minister) is so full of shit. How dares he calls the epidemy under control or controllable? After a few days of stagnation? BTW: the latest daily infection numbers are already accelerating by 50%.

[QUOTE=TheCane;2444054]The German authorities seem to be confident that they have things under control. I hope they are right, and that things remain under control in FKKland. One step closer to getting back to our "hobby".[/QUOTE]

A) a constant daught / wind can reduce infection a lot:

In a recent german TV show (Maybrit Ilgner), [URL]https://youtu.be/5ulKfdHm5wU?t=1094[/URL] (exact position), Prof Drosten (Germany's most famous virologist) said something *super-important*:

Essentially if there is a constant draught, then the coronavirus would have a much less chance to settle.

B) an app, that could show someones personal risk score, based on the vicinity of folks one was with in the past 5 days, and whether those were infected or not.

Easy to create this draught, with ventilators in the rooms. Likely dehumidifiers might help too. If the air is dry, the aerosols will be killed.

And also easy to make the risk-score app mandatory for certain establishments. At the door the FKK-clubs, could simply say, that either mongers / girls need to show that they are immun or have a low risk score. Done.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2444323]Salaam zusammen,

As you know it's been hard to know the fatality rate of Coronavirus, and the figures have been all over the place. Part of the problem is that they've only been testing people who show up in hospital with bad symptoms, so we don't know how many people in the general public are infected.

However, a recent study has shed some light on this:

[URL]https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/17/health/santa-clara-coronavirus-infections-study/index.html[/URL]

According to scientists testing for antibodies, in Santa Clara county, on April 1 between 48,000 and 81,000 people were infected. That sounds huge, but the good news is that only 50 people had died. So that's a fatality rate of under 0. 1%. That's the same as the death rate for common flu.

If you are under 50, your risk probably goes down to 0. 01%. If you're under 30,0. 001%.

Why have the governments of the world been so slow to do studies like the Santa Clara one? Why have they been so slow to test in general? Why are they not being honest about the death rate? We all heard the 3. 4% figure, right? But it's not true.

I suspect that if young people knew how small the risks are to them, they would be much more reluctant to shutter up their restaurants, stop going to parties, etc. The lockdown would not seem justified.[/QUOTE]I encourage the audience to read the above linked CNN article in full. You'll find that the doctor who oversaw this study is far more guarded in his language than Polyamorist, who with great eagerness thinks he has found validation for his government conspiracy theories. This study is preliminary and is not yet peer reviewed. The doctor also ends with a word of caution saying that "the flu and coronavirus are still quite different. For one, we don't yet have a vaccine for Covid-19.

Doctors suspect, though, and are still trying to prove beyond a doubt, that antibodies to Covid-19 mean one is immune down the line. " The latter remains open, and it's a significant question indeed.

Also, even if the death rate is scaled downward substantially as the result of wider, like testing, there's still a number of other problems associated with placing restrictions only on the elderly while allowing everyone else to get back to business as usual. Those are found in the below article. This is an idea that British considered but back off of for good reason.

[URL]https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/03/heres-why-it-wont-work-just-isolate-elderly-vulnerable/[/URL]

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2444299]China claim US brought it, US claim other, don't believe all what is told or written, same than here. I just think now the world know China lied to protect their already falling economy and keeping on producing not reliable tests, with people tested negative and dying from covid. I think this is now time to protect versus lies, not to be so dependant about safety, health. We don t all have same standards and level for quality, reliability. Now, this is new world with virus working around, not so sure even having recovered will make full safe, even french doctors think to use plasma to cure. I think FKK land will now be risky playfield if you are not a survivor healthy warrior with no relatives, because when will reopen, even with EU borders closed for months, but such playfield to spread so fast and around when returning at home, but as I went to a escort under confined, but since more than 2 weeks now, I look if she is still available and I m happy for her she is, when she is only 19, too young to die from virus in Paris, as soon it will reopen, I will go to Germany, Switzerland, Austria which should open first, and Spain for Slavians. But better to know about risk for health, for relatives. Even with vaccine, if ever, if virus don t mutate before, just impossible for everybody but only risky people like versus grippe. But on the other hand, no need to be paranoiac, can die while sleeping. When I grew up, I read, I heard so much about US paranoia about what was behind the wall. Now we know, not because Russian women are much prettier and elegant than Americans, even despite Putin, but Russia is so much more interesting for culture, for a french like me, even I thank US to be a free French.[/QUOTE]So called red team, north Korea, China and Russia, their governments are known to be not reliable for information, they openly lie even on the field of foreign affairs. This is nothing new, any educated people know about that. But many nations are like this also.

At least with in G7 nations we do not lie to each others and can have good dialogue to lead the world. G7 is not just GDP as they claim, then China would be in G7 long time ago.

Cities may reopen, but we are still depending on hope of weather of summer will fix it for now, so let see if that hope is right as for most virus weather to calm it down. Some are wondering about corona spread in warmer climate nations already, but let see.

Either way, we won't know the bottom of it unless USA decide to declare war, but I do not think so. Maybe in middle east again or possibly Iran, but with China, it will be third world war.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2444323]Why have the governments of the world been so slow to do studies like the Santa Clara one? Why have they been so slow to test in general? Why are they not being honest about the death rate? We all heard the 3. 4% figure, right? But it's not true.[/QUOTE]I believe there are now so many mutations of the virus that maybe there are both one version with 3-4% death rate, and another one with just 0. 1%. We simply do not know. An Icelandic scientist found 40 different mutations of the virus on Iceland alone!

In Italy it surely was well above 0. 1% in some areas for example. As the total number of deaths registered in one region quadrupled from one year ago in March. That means the corona virus mutation in that area killed 3 times as many people as all other causes of deaths combined. These are morgue statistics, and has nothing to do with testing. And in the later part of the timeframe there were even restrictions on movement, thus reducing things like the seasonal flu, driving accidents etc etc.

[QUOTE=Kuni042;2444351]A) a constant daught / wind can reduce infection a lot:

In a recent german TV show (Maybrit Ilgner), [URL]https://youtu.be/5ulKfdHm5wU?t=1094[/URL] (exact position), Prof Drosten (Germany's most famous virologist) said something *super-important*:

Essentially if there is a constant draught, then the coronavirus would have a much less chance to settle.

B) an app, that could show someones personal risk score, based on the vicinity of folks one was with in the past 5 days, and whether those were infected or not.

Easy to create this draught, with ventilators in the rooms. Likely dehumidifiers might help too. If the air is dry, the aerosols will be killed.

And also easy to make the risk-score app mandatory for certain establishments. At the door the FKK-clubs, could simply say, that either mongers / girls need to show that they are immun or have a low risk score. Done.[/QUOTE]Well either way, there is only one option for FKK to be open again, which is when government gives green light to do so.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2444197]But most powerful is not able to manage virus, with their town number 1 giving scary images to the world, with fridge trucks in streets, with Hart island for poor. I really don t wish them, because I would probably not be French without them, Europe might be very different without them, but I m afraid they could be over 50000 deaths, with so many poor who can t afford to go to hospital, keeping on working to have to eat, when unemployment is exploding there. When the most powerful is the worst since weeks. Of course, we won't compare to China, because I think everybody and our politics understood what kind of danger they can be. Have now to think about less dependence and more protection, we are not in same world. Virus is like miror for our society, much more than our medical level, and they are discovering in France, when 80% deaths are over 70 yo, and 67% under 70 had already health problems, but 50% of the worst cases under 70 are suffering obesity, even in France, more and more obese, eating on US way since they are child: MacDo for gift in foods, Cola, when we have best gastronomy in France, but US culture spreading in France, making more and more obese who are vulnerable to virus. This virus would not only kill fragile lungs, but could also infect blood for some cases when doctors didn't understand what happened for some quite young, seeming healthy, who died. I wish, if we lost, but at least could learn from what happen. As we say in sport, we learn more from a defeat than when we win.[/QUOTE]Power and managing virus has nothing to do with each other siri. USA messed up on this and many European nations messed up big time too, and soon Japan is on the same path, Japan have now 20 % beds kept free in hospital, so Japan too can have health care destruction soon if that 20% of beds are filled with heavy symptom patients and then we be on same path as Europe and USA, and all of these country has same standard of civilization beside some nations has better medical technologies, but we all are failing or on the path to failing.

However, this virus won't terminate humanity, we be back on the norm sometimes in future, it is matter of how much damage and death till then. Again, it is better to focus on controlling death rates and protecting health care system is the key.

Beside Avigan made by Fuji film Japan, which is working on mild symptom well. There is another medicine made by USA based medical company that is showing good result and not they are testing on 4000 patients globally, so it is quite hopeful.

[QUOTE=Kuni042;2444351]A) a constant daught / wind can reduce infection a lot:

In a recent german TV show (Maybrit Ilgner), [URL]https://youtu.be/5ulKfdHm5wU?t=1094[/URL] (exact position), Prof Drosten (Germany's most famous virologist) said something *super-important*:

Essentially if there is a constant draught, then the coronavirus would have a much less chance to settle.

B) an app, that could show someones personal risk score, based on the vicinity of folks one was with in the past 5 days, and whether those were infected or not.

Easy to create this draught, with ventilators in the rooms. Likely dehumidifiers might help too. If the air is dry, the aerosols will be killed.

And also easy to make the risk-score app mandatory for certain establishments. At the door the FKK-clubs, could simply say, that either mongers / girls need to show that they are immun or have a low risk score. Done.[/QUOTE]With Chinese not reliable tests? Even if mistral or tramuntana wind, but if You kiss with saliva a infected girl with no symptom, no risk for you? I'm pretty sure virus will return in FKK land when reopening, virus is now around us. Risky business. When US are the worst under virus, when they never respected confined, but now they want confined to be stopped, and even fat and old ask for, same like for free weapons any psychopath can buy, it just means they accept to die, but maybe they don't understand everything and they will cry after, when no more Navajo to be scared about. In France, old people also asked not to be confined anymore after 11 May, so, many will die, many will be given by children. I don t know for how long they plan to close EU borders, but some will go outside for job, will they be under quarantine when returning? Nearly impossible no more virus and nothing in FKK land, new risk, more risky than HIV, but less dangerous for my opinion, even seem to attack not only lungs but can also blood.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2444299]China claim US brought it, US claim other, don't believe all what is told or written, same than here. I just think now the world know China lied to protect their already falling economy and keeping on producing not reliable tests, with people tested negative and dying from covid. I think this is now time to protect versus lies, not to be so dependant about safety, health. We don t all have same standards and level for quality, reliability. Now, this is new world with virus working around, not so sure even having recovered will make full safe, even french doctors think to use plasma to cure. I think FKK land will now be risky playfield if you are not a survivor healthy warrior with no relatives, because when will reopen, even with EU borders closed for months, but such playfield to spread so fast and around when returning at home, but as I went to a escort under confined, but since more than 2 weeks now, I look if she is still available and I m happy for her she is, when she is only 19, too young to die from virus in Paris, as soon it will reopen, I will go to Germany, Switzerland, Austria which should open first, and Spain for Slavians. But better to know about risk for health, for relatives. Even with vaccine, if ever, if virus don t mutate before, just impossible for everybody but only risky people like versus grippe. But on the other hand, no need to be paranoiac, can die while sleeping. When I grew up, I read, I heard so much about US paranoia about what was behind the wall. Now we know, not because Russian women are much prettier and elegant than Americans, even despite Putin, but Russia is so much more interesting for culture, for a french like me, even I thank US to be a free French.[/QUOTE]It is this one I have been saying from the beginning.

[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuhan_Institute_of_Virology[/URL]

[QUOTE=TheCane;2444054]The German authorities seem to be confident that they have things under control. I hope they are right, and that things remain under control in FKKland. One step closer to getting back to our "hobby".[/QUOTE]If only that was the size of it however, I firmly believe the very suggestion even thoughts of FKK's reopening this year is at best optimistic.

With social distancing measures firmly in place and likely to remain so throughout the summer months quite probably beyond, I'm at loss to understand how the business of close contact and intimate pleasure with a sex worker on an industrial scale is going to be sanctioned by the German authorities.

I'd even go so far as to suggest this won't be happening until a proven vaccination is in circulation and everybody entering FKK's (clients and workers) are able to produce valid certification to prove they are inoculated and virus free.

[QUOTE=Pentire;2444505]If only that was the size of it however, I firmly believe the very suggestion even thoughts of FKK's reopening this year is at best optimistic.

With social distancing measures firmly in place and likely to remain so throughout the summer months quite probably beyond, I'm at loss to understand how the business of close contact and intimate pleasure with a sex worker on an industrial scale is going to be sanctioned by the German authorities.

I'd even go so far as to suggest this won't be happening until a proven vaccination is in circulation and everybody entering FKK's (clients and workers) are able to produce valid certification to prove they are inoculated and virus free.[/QUOTE]It will open when government gives green light LOL!

[QUOTE=MrHo;2444469]It is this one I have been saying from the beginning.

[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuhan_Institute_of_Virology[/URL][/QUOTE]French built this and they backed off for Chinese to manage it, and look what happened.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2444405]I believe there are now so many mutations of the virus that maybe there are both one version with 3-4% death rate, and another one with just 0. 1%. We simply do not know. An Icelandic scientist found 40 different mutations of the virus on Iceland alone![/QUOTE]Salaam Pistons,

According to the authors of that study in Iceland, the virus mutations would be less harmful. Mutations are nothing to freak out about. The flu does it all the time. It makes sense for a virus to mutate to become a nicer bedfellow because if it kills the host it kills itself. So again, I am saying: 0. 1%.

In places where the death rate was higher, like Italy and New York, it could be simply because of the disorganization of the national health systems. At first they were caught by surprise and they couldn't distribute the ventilators to the right places fast enough.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2444548]Salaam Pistons,

According to the authors of that study in Iceland, the virus mutations would be less harmful. Mutations are nothing to freak out about. The flu does it all the time. It makes sense for a virus to mutate to become a nicer bedfellow because if it kills the host it kills itself. So again, I am saying: 0. 1%.

In places where the death rate was higher, like Italy and New York, it could be simply because of the disorganization of the national health systems. At first they were caught by surprise and they couldn't distribute the ventilators to the right places fast enough.[/QUOTE]Italy was first Western country to be heavily impacted and in poor South, many Italians live with parents, when many left impacted North to return to South with family, but US couldn't not ignore because they were impacted much later, but they thought first they would be stronger, they still don t respect confined, poverty can t afford to pay for healthcare when many don t have insurance, but who really care there about mostly black people dying in NYC, Louisiana, Michigan, Chicago. I m sure Trump doesn't have problem to sleep. Virus is real mirror for US society and they are the worst under virus. Just figures.

[QUOTE=Turgid;2443724]You do realize that you have added to the conversation on coronavirus.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Sirioja;2443782]But you can tell about your FKK experiences, to entertain us while this black time. I could go to Russian escorts, but no libido reading deaths, unemployment.[/QUOTE]Thank you for your messages. I guess this is the case of great mind thinking alike. I apologize if your enjoyment of this forum has been upset. Please see my Evita report below. I do not wish to take over forum as do another. Please post away about Covid19 for everyone's enjoyment. Please say Hi to Basketcase if you see. Many thank and thank you again for your messages.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2444548]Salaam Pistons,

According to the authors of that study in Iceland, the virus mutations would be less harmful. Mutations are nothing to freak out about. The flu does it all the time. It makes sense for a virus to mutate to become a nicer bedfellow because if it kills the host it kills itself. So again, I am saying: 0. 1%.[/QUOTE]You almost make it sound like the virus has a mind of its own now, haha.

I believe this is all by chance. Like hitting up a casino in Las Vegas or Macau.

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2444352]I encourage the audience to read the above linked CNN article in full. You'll find that the doctor who oversaw this study is far more guarded in his language than Polyamorist, who with great eagerness thinks he has found validation for his government conspiracy theories. This study is preliminary and is not yet peer reviewed. The doctor also ends with a word of caution saying that "the flu and coronavirus are still quite different. For one, we don't yet have a vaccine for Covid-19.

Doctors suspect, though, and are still trying to prove beyond a doubt, that antibodies to Covid-19 mean one is immune down the line. " The latter remains open, and it's a significant question indeed.

Also, even if the death rate is scaled downward substantially as the result of wider, like testing, there's still a number of other problems associated with placing restrictions only on the elderly while allowing everyone else to get back to business as usual. Those are found in the below article. This is an idea that British considered but back off of for good reason.

[URL]https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/03/heres-why-it-wont-work-just-isolate-elderly-vulnerable/[/URL][/QUOTE]This is what I find problematic, many act as if the main goal should be to stop the number of deaths no matter what it takes. I strongly disagree with that approach. Saving the lives of people with poor health isn't worth much to me if we in process destroy the lives of the 99.0-99.9 % that won't die. We have to be able to see the bigger picture. The virus isn't especially dangerous for people under 65 without underlying health problems. In the US they have 22 million unemployed after four weeks, probably 18 million more in June. How many business owners will be forced into bankruptcy? How many will be heavily indebted and forced to a life in homelessness? How many children will have their childhood destroyed and highly disadvantaged to live a good life? Many countries will face huge problems considering their debt to GDP ratio.

30 years of economic progress in Africa might be wiped out. People have to wake up and stop being afraid of nature. Old people should stay at home, the rest should go on with their life.

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2444352] Also, even if the death rate is scaled downward substantially as the result of wider, like testing, there's still a number of other problems associated with placing restrictions only on the elderly while allowing everyone else to get back to business as usual. Those are found in the below article. This is an idea that British considered but back off of for good reason.

[URL]https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/03/heres-why-it-wont-work-just-isolate-elderly-vulnerable/[/URL][/QUOTE]No visitors at the elderly homes. Masks, gloves etc for the employees. In a household where one person is old or belongs to a risk group everyone in that household stays at home without loss of pay (government steps in). It would cost a government a lot less than shutting down an entire country.

Might not work in third world countries but for the rest it should.

[QUOTE=DenHaag;2444572]Thank you for your messages. I guess this is the case of great mind thinking alike. I apologize if your enjoyment of this forum has been upset. Please see my Evita report below. I do not wish to take over forum as do another. Please post away about Covid19 for everyone's enjoyment. Please say Hi to Basketcase if you see. Many thank and thank you again for your messages.[/QUOTE]I'm sorry, I know I m different but I m much more interested by virus crisis with so many deaths, economy crisis with 22 millions more unemployed in US, 8 millions more in France, than brothels and Evita I see at Sharks since January 2015 , and even my best girls, but only my subjective ranking of values, of course. At the moment, some beauties escorting in Paris, but I already missed 4 who left, went only with 1 , because not in the mood about what happen to our world, I don't mean FKK land I don't care much about at the moment. Still a Polish, a Estonian and a Belarus real beauties if I have better mood, when only pleasures are to work and prepare bicycle to climb my beloved mountains and wish to go to my Dolomiti friends. I m happy because they are safe. I wish Romanian girls had good Easter in family today.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2444558]Italy was first Western country to be heavily impacted and in poor South, many Italians live with parents, when many left impacted North to return to South with family, but US couldn't not ignore because they were impacted much later, but they thought first they would be stronger, they still don t respect confined, poverty can t afford to pay for healthcare when many don t have insurance, but who really care there about mostly black people dying in NYC, Louisiana, Michigan, Chicago. I m sure Trump doesn't have problem to sleep. Virus is real mirror for US society and they are the worst under virus. Just figures.[/QUOTE]Nobody, not even Germany, can compete with North Korea, Belarus and I think Turkmenistan, claiming 0 deaths and even 0 cases, same in Taiwan. Belarus president found vaccine before others, telling to drink vodka.

Today, french government explained us about where we are about virus, really interesting and clear explanation. Virus should be under control when R0 really below 1 and stay like this, they say we are now at 0,6 in France, wish it will stay like this after 11 May, end of confined and also for old people. But not sure having recovered is no more risk. Only children have not much risk.

What's life like in western Germany? Apparently some services are now slowly opening up? Are more people out and about? Are people acting strange and scared?

It looks like Spain, France, Italy, Netherlands, UK, Belgium, Sweden, and UK are complete messes. No doubt because the first five had overly romanticized healthcare systems unable to respond to this disaster. UK and Sweden are probably doing poorly because they did too little too late.

Despite the media's portrayal of anecdotal and regional disasters, the mood in most of the US seems to be on an uptick. Some beaches are opening up. Some states are lifting stay-at-home orders while keeping social distancing measures in place. Cases and deaths have plateaued. Overall death rates are much much lower than than the previously exaggerated predictions. [B]Death rates have settled at about 2.4% of those infected 0.01% of total population, much better than the 10% death rates of infected in those mentioned EU nations and the UK.[/B] What the heck is going on over there! Personally, I think the death numbers during this whole mess is exposing how weak some these western European societies really are. Respect to certain countries like Germany, Austria, and Norway for the discipline of their people, public health programs, and medical providers. The numbers show that the US, despite being lead by a fat monkey and a microscope where the world overly dramatizes our country, has shown that you don't need a romanticized utopia to respond to this disaster.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2444405]I believe there are now so many mutations of the virus that maybe there are both one version with 3-4% death rate, and another one with just 0. 1%. We simply do not know. An Icelandic scientist found 40 different mutations of the virus on Iceland alone!

In Italy it surely was well above 0. 1% in some areas for example. As the total number of deaths registered in one region quadrupled from one year ago in March. That means the corona virus mutation in that area killed 3 times as many people as all other causes of deaths combined. These are morgue statistics, and has nothing to do with testing. And in the later part of the timeframe there were even restrictions on movement, thus reducing things like the seasonal flu, driving accidents etc etc.[/QUOTE]Mutations have not shown to affect pathogenicity and disease outcome. They only change antigen expression that may affect detection. Death rates have been directly correlated to socioeconomic environment of the population in the affected region.

It is exactly as Mr Ho said. The FKK clubs stay closed, until the government says so. But it is the FKK club owners to lay out a plan that can work. This may include lots of precautionary steps: masks, ventilators, duck tape, mandatory apps and what not.

So they will. With 100% certainty. Require us to wear masks. As much as they required us to wear condoms. And we all know that wearing condoms, worked very well. Mostly for the ladies. Grin. And of course, you know that the government is reading this too. It can made to work. What is so difficult to understand?

Our job is to help the FKK club owners think this through. Because our collective brainpower is very high. Likely much much higher than the 10-person crew of any of the FKK clubs.

[QUOTE=Pentire;2444505] I'm at loss to understand how the business of close contact and intimate pleasure with a sex worker on an industrial scale is going to be sanctioned by the German authorities.
[/QUOTE]

Well, I'm on the ground and it's pretty much a fortiori argument currently.

If concerts, and all other large public events are banned, and they're only opening stores below a certain size. All the more so clubs with a large party atmosphere filled with older men wearing nothing but a towel surrounded by 50-100 naked women and getting as close to them as is humanly possible, with guests travelling from the entire world to attend, are going to be banned probably the longest.

Also given the fact the girls are all back home in Romania, and may be about to miss one of the busiest seasons, I would expect the FKKs to be out for most of the summer. Facemasks or no.

I am afraid this looks shot for the next few months. Honestly, if not, then I'll be the first to run to one of them given the monotony of being at home.

In terms of P6, the only stuff available are a few escorts and maybe a dozen girls in the RLD strutting their stuff on the streets (70 euros at least).

Hopefully however this post will be a consolation to those wishing they were here when currently there's nothing really here.

[QUOTE=Tropea317;2444220]So make the picture.

For 1 or 2 years no more Italian customers in FKK.[/QUOTE]In such a case, the FKK will be freed from the most noisy clients.

[QUOTE=Kuni042;2444671]It is exactly as Mr Ho said. The FKK clubs stay closed, until the government says so. But it is the FKK club owners to lay out a plan that can work. This may include lots of precautionary steps: masks, ventilators, duck tape, mandatory apps and what not.

So they will. With 100% certainty. Require us to wear masks. As much as they required us to wear condoms. And we all know that wearing condoms, worked very well. Mostly for the ladies. Grin. And of course, you know that the government is reading this too. It can made to work. What is so difficult to understand?

Our job is to help the FKK club owners think this through. Because our collective brainpower is very high. Likely much much higher than the 10-person crew of any of the FKK clubs.[/QUOTE]I'm sorry but I m not clever enough to find enjoyable with mask and gloves. No real kiss, then can t have pleasure.

Germany will open shops smaller than 800 meters square, Austria will for shops smaller than 400, but with masks.

[QUOTE=Kuni042;2444671]This may include lots of precautionary steps: masks, ventilators, duck tape, mandatory apps and what not.[/QUOTE]I hope this is your attempt at humor. I see no different between P6 business transactions and dating, except on has a much higher chance of ending with sex. In your scenario a couple out on a date would be forbidden from kissing the same as a bear and a WG. What I expect, and am surprised I haven't seen it yet, is the religious end of the world groups coming forward, blaming their God for smiting those who willingly expose themselves to filth and petulance.

One thing that has been interesting to watch is the national chest pounding, claims of superiority. Interestingly enough, we are all stuck on the semi solid surface of a molten lava ball. With the exception of the possible 6 persons on the space station we are all pretty much stuck in this mess together. Regardless of how you believe this virus started, it started in one country and thanks to high speed flights around the world, and Audi's sweeping the Autobahn, this virus has spread to the far reaches of the world. A country can have it completely eradicated and all it takes is one traveler to contact the virus and pass through said country and the virus can be back in the wild again. My Hope's are that the nations of earth figure out how to limit the number of fatalities in time, then the virus can run its course building antibodies in the majority of human kind.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2444658]I'm sorry, I know I m different but I m much more interested by virus crisis with so many deaths, economy crisis with 22 millions more unemployed in US, 8 millions more in France, than brothels and Evita I see at Sharks since January 2015 , and even my best girls, but only my subjective ranking of values, of course. At the moment, some beauties escorting in Paris, but I already missed 4 who left, went only with 1 , because not in the mood about what happen to our world, I don't mean FKK land I don't care much about at the moment. Still a Polish, a Estonian and a Belarus real beauties if I have better mood, when only pleasures are to work and prepare bicycle to climb my beloved mountains and wish to go to my Dolomiti friends. I m happy because they are safe. I wish Romanian girls had good Easter in family today.[/QUOTE]Siri, do that in corona virus thread LOL. The guy is thanking for corona topic has been moved to corona thread and then you begin corona topic here again LOL!

[QUOTE=Mursenary;2444666]
It looks like Spain, France, Italy, Netherlands, UK, Belgium, Sweden, and UK are complete messes. No doubt because the first five had overly romanticized healthcare systems unable to respond to this disaster. UK and Sweden are probably doing poorly because they did too little too late.

Despite the media's portrayal of anecdotal and regional disasters, the mood in most of the US seems to be on an uptick. Some beaches are opening up. Some states are lifting stay-at-home orders while keeping social distancing measures in place. Cases and deaths have plateaued. Overall death rates are much much lower than than the previously exaggerated predictions. [B]Death rates have settled at about 2.4% of those infected 0.01% of total population, much better than the 10% death rates of infected in those mentioned EU nations and the UK.[/B] What the heck is going on over there! Personally, I think the death numbers during this whole mess is exposing how weak some these western European societies really are. Respect to certain countries like Germany, Austria, and Norway for the discipline of their people, public health programs, and medical providers. The numbers show that the US, despite being lead by a fat monkey and a microscope where the world overly dramatizes our country, has shown that you don't need a romanticized utopia to respond to this disaster.[/QUOTE]Europe has a higher population density than the US.

Example of what high population density leads to: [URL]https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8206143/New-York-coronavirus-cases-Italy-Spain.html[/URL].

CNN and BBC among others are hypocritical. Each day, they randomly attack other nations about corona virus failure, today they are saying Singapore had it control, but now cases spiked etc. I think they should look at what is happening to their own nations with insane death rates and medical system completely failed and they only had corona since like March in western nations.

[QUOTE=Atlante18;2444675]In such a case, the FKK will be freed from the most noisy clients.[/QUOTE]Not so fast.

The Italian residents in Italy.

For the big bunch that already work in Germany, for restaurants tourism etc, BTW are almost totally a business of mafia camorra etc, but don t tell to Deutsche regierung, they like mafia money, make money in Italy than export in Germany banks, they will stay.

If you want to make a pogrom, I'm with you.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2444658]I'm sorry, I know I m different but I m much more interested by virus crisis with so many deaths, economy crisis with 22 millions more unemployed in US, 8 millions more in France, than brothels and Evita I see at Sharks since January 2015 , and even my best girls, but only my subjective ranking of values, of course. At the moment, some beauties escorting in Paris, but I already missed 4 who left, went only with 1 , because not in the mood about what happen to our world, I don't mean FKK land I don't care much about at the moment. Still a Polish, a Estonian and a Belarus real beauties if I have better mood, when only pleasures are to work and prepare bicycle to climb my beloved mountains and wish to go to my Dolomiti friends. I m happy because they are safe. I wish Romanian girls had good Easter in family today.[/QUOTE]By the way, it is France who made the virus laboratory in Wuhan China.

[QUOTE=Mursenary;2444666]What's life like in western Germany? Apparently some services are now slowly opening up? Are more people out and about? Are people acting strange and scared?

It looks like Spain, France, Italy, Netherlands, UK, Belgium, Sweden, and UK are complete messes. No doubt because the first five had overly romanticized healthcare systems unable to respond to this disaster. UK and Sweden are probably doing poorly because they did too little too late.

Despite the media's portrayal of anecdotal and regional disasters, the mood in most of the US seems to be on an uptick. Some beaches are opening up. Some states are lifting stay-at-home orders while keeping social distancing measures in place. Cases and deaths have plateaued. Overall death rates are much much lower than than the previously exaggerated predictions. [B]Death rates have settled at about 2.4% of those infected 0.01% of total population, much better than the 10% death rates of infected in those mentioned EU nations and the UK.[/B] What the heck is going on over there! Personally, I think the death numbers during this whole mess is exposing how weak some these western European societies really are. Respect to certain countries like Germany, Austria, and Norway for the discipline of their people, public health programs, and medical providers. The numbers show that the US, despite being lead by a fat monkey and a microscope where the world overly dramatizes our country, has shown that you don't need a romanticized utopia to respond to this disaster.[/QUOTE]You must be joking? USA is a mess, just look at the numbers. There's a bloodbath in New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Louisiana, Massachusetts and Michigan. New York is worse off than any other European country excluding San Marino. And the numbers are only going up. On top of that over 22'000'000 people lost their jobs in four weeks and that despite the high number of deaths. Canada is looking so much better, USA could really learn a lot from them. Its freighting to see how weak USA really is. They actually failed worse than many feared.

UK USA and Israel together want to make trillion lawsuit against China?

Maybe something more spicy.

[QUOTE=DasBooty;2444782]Europe has a higher population density than the US.

Example of what high population density leads to: [URL]https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8206143/New-York-coronavirus-cases-Italy-Spain.html[/URL].[/QUOTE]That affects transmission rate but not death rate of those infected. That's a reflection of medical response. Even in the mostly densely populated NYC, death rate is still only 7% compared the 10% you see in aforementioned European countries.

[QUOTE=Mursenary;2444666]What's life like in western Germany? Apparently some services are now slowly opening up? Are more people out and about? Are people acting strange and scared?

It looks like Spain, France, Italy, Netherlands, UK, Belgium, Sweden, and UK are complete messes. No doubt because the first five had overly romanticized healthcare systems unable to respond to this disaster. UK and Sweden are probably doing poorly because they did too little too late.

Despite the media's portrayal of anecdotal and regional disasters, the mood in most of the US seems to be on an uptick. Some beaches are opening up. Some states are lifting stay-at-home orders while keeping social distancing measures in place. Cases and deaths have plateaued. Overall death rates are much much lower than than the previously exaggerated predictions. [B]Death rates have settled at about 2.4% of those infected 0.01% of total population, much better than the 10% death rates of infected in those mentioned EU nations and the UK.[/B] What the heck is going on over there! Personally, I think the death numbers during this whole mess is exposing how weak some these western European societies really are. Respect to certain countries like Germany, Austria, and Norway for the discipline of their people, public health programs, and medical providers. The numbers show that the US, despite being lead by a fat monkey and a microscope where the world overly dramatizes our country, has shown that you don't need a romanticized utopia to respond to this disaster.[/QUOTE]Media does not seem pin blame on US healthcare system or any other national healthcare system. Media seems to blame certain governments for their slow responses. Underfunding programs. Not being prepared, and not resourcing ventilators and medical equipment. In other words, poor long-term and short-term planning by politicians. Media has consistently trumpeted the idea that there is no healthcare system on the planet that can handle the coronavirus if social distancing were not put into place to mitigate the spread.

Rather than country-to-country comparison, it might be more appropriate to shift the conversation to a city-to-city comparison. Madrid accounts for 33 percent of Spain's deaths, NYC about 25 percent of USA's deaths. The hardest hit cities in each country all have a few things in common: (1) high population density, (2) globally connected financial center for their respective country. Cheyenne, Wyoming has better coronavirus statistics than NYC, but I doubt you will find anyone who would say that they have better doctors or healthcare than NYC. We still haven't seen coronavirus hit Africa. They might have better than expected numbers due to being a younger population. Again, I doubt any media will draw conclusions that they have better healthcare system than the western nations.

Questions are going to be asked and the status quo will be challenged or scrutinized in every country. After such a crisis, I think it is only natural to reconsider all policies or re-initiate old discussions. For USA that might be universal healthcare and social inequality. For China that might be government transparency and surveillance. Applicable to every country might be pandemic response, city planning, telecommuting, and global alliances. For instance, Italy has not been happy with its EU partners. For those reasons, there could be both economic and political stability in the post-Covid 19 world.

It is funny how CNN insult Singapore today and BBC write the opposite about nations health and its health care system LOL. I am surprise France or Germany is not even on top 10.

[URL]http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20200419-coronavirus-five-countries-with-the-best-healthcare-systems[/URL]

[QUOTE=Tropea317;2444220]So make the picture.

Austria and Germany quickly to a new normality.

And don t forget that Germany have a big Pharma industry for all the equipment e the vaccine.

For the hospital never had ICU problem.

So poor Italy, please don't censored this because I m Italian, with its lousy health system and politicians, e 1/3 of the country mafialand. Will be the first to entry in crisis and the last to exit.

For 1 or 2 years no more Italian customers in FKK.[/QUOTE]There are rich Italians spending big money in FKK land, even poor South. I m really sorry for Italy I really love, for bad experience about chinese virus, but I m happy my Dolomiti friends are safe and look forward going in my little paradise: Stelvio, Gavia, Mortirolo, Zoncolan in Frioul and now extreme 28% Gentile, Carabinieri adviced me. I really wish for great sporty, climbing every day for more than 15 days, ironman Summer, but only on bicycle. If no more Italians, Wellcum and Andiamo will die, I think Chiaso also, other Swiss clubs will cry, and even some GT Bruggen girls. I remember I met 2 really pretty Italian girls at Wellcum, Anna on August 2016 and lightning Tea on August 2018 , but both not good for me because not really kissing and when they saw my frustration about their way for sex, they told: But Italians here don t kiss. I was luckier with Mila at Marina Slovenia, also full of Italians. I have different behavior, but FKK need Italian business.

[QUOTE=Mursenary;2444668]Mutations have not shown to affect pathogenicity and disease outcome. They only change antigen expression that may affect detection. Death rates have been directly correlated to socioeconomic environment of the population in the affected region.[/QUOTE]Then it should be terrible in some poor parts of the world right now, because Bergamo in Italy which was fairly badly hit, is one of the wealthiest parts of Europe. Definitely one of the wealthiest in Italy for sure!

[QUOTE=MrHo;2444800]By the way, it is France who made the virus laboratory in Wuhan China.[/QUOTE]What you mean? France is responsible of organization and safety in China? But I'm happy France get ordered for building in China, and do CIA have real proof which can be controlled by everybody, when one of the less reliable organization, can compete with China for truth.

[QUOTE=Mursenary;2444844]That affects transmission rate but not death rate of those infected. That's a reflection of medical response. Even in the mostly densely populated NYC, death rate is still only 7% compared the 10% you see in aforementioned European countries.[/QUOTE]Good point. This could "almost" isolate out all other factors, and make medical response the sole basis of comparison. But I would argue that that you must then look at the closed cases. USA has 113 K closed cases, 41 K deaths, which comes out to 37% death rate. France is 35%, Italy is 33%, Spain 21%, and Germany 5%.

[URL]https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us[/URL]

But I still don't think these numbers prove that health system in one country is any better than the other. Deaths seem to pile up when hospitals get overloaded and when the population has high comorbidities. At least the first factor is dictated more by policy makers. Procuring test kits, ventilators, and masks and deciding how early and how long to implement social distancing are outside of the healthcare system's control. USA still has 650 K open cases. If the decision to reopen is not the correct one or the reopening is not properly planned, managed, and executed, American hospitals will never get a chance to "catch up" and improve on their death rate.

[QUOTE=Mursenary;2444844]That affects transmission rate but not death rate of those infected. That's a reflection of medical response. Even in the mostly densely populated NYC, death rate is still only 7% compared the 10% you see in aforementioned European countries.[/QUOTE]It has more to do with age. Europe has an older population than the US: [URL]https://www.prb.org/countries-with-the-oldest-populations/[/URL].

[QUOTE=MrHo;2444800]By the way, it is France who made the virus laboratory in Wuhan China.[/QUOTE]France helped Saddam Hussein kick start a nuclear plant too. We know how that turned out. Bad in so, so many ways!

[QUOTE=Tropea317;2444795]Not so fast.

The Italian residents in Italy.

For the big bunch that already work in Germany, for restaurants tourism etc, BTW are almost totally a business of mafia camorra etc, but don t tell to Deutsche regierung, they like mafia money, make money in Italy than export in Germany banks, they will stay.

If you want to make a pogrom, I'm with you.[/QUOTE]I love Italy, my second country, when too complicated for Russia I love also. Germany really can't compete for way of life and foods, only worth for me for brothels, escorts are usually not pretty enough in Germany. When they have enough money to afford, Germans leave Germany for Spain, France, Italy, for holidays, to be more free than in Germany.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2444784]CNN and BBC among others are hypocritical. Each day, they randomly attack other nations about corona virus failure, today they are saying Singapore had it control, but now cases spiked etc. I think they should look at what is happening to their own nations with insane death rates and medical system completely failed and they only had corona since like March in western nations.[/QUOTE]Like in brothels, only facts are real for me, figures for virus, today more than 40 000 deaths in US with mostly poor Afro Americans, not far from 30 millions more unemployed and more than 10 millions illegals, for country number 1 . We are not better in France with now more than 20000 deaths when I see how work in exceptional way our medical staff, and I m sure US medical staff also do great job, but too many without insurance who can't afford to pay for healthcare. But when I see old and fat in US asking to finish confined, as they ask for free weapons for mad to kill in schools, universities, churches, I don't worry anymore for them, when Trump is playing a politic game, I will worry much more for poor Africa, and this is much more important for me than brothels land and prostitutes looking for fast money, when so many Africans may die because of poverty. Maybe my communist part, even very individualist, maybe why I m so interested by Russian culture and history, except by Putin.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2444958]Like in brothels, only facts are real for me, figures for virus, today more than 40 000 deaths in US with mostly poor Afro Americans, not far from 30 millions more unemployed and more than 10 millions illegals, for country number 1 . We are not better in France with now more than 20000 deaths when I see how work in exceptional way our medical staff, and I m sure US medical staff also do great job, but too many without insurance who can't afford to pay for healthcare. But when I see old and fat in US asking to finish confined, as they ask for free weapons for mad to kill in schools, universities, churches, I don't worry anymore for them, when Trump is playing a politic game, I will worry much more for poor Africa, and this is much more important for me than brothels land and prostitutes looking for fast money, when so many Africans may die because of poverty. Maybe my communist part, even very individualist, maybe why I m so interested by Russian culture and history, except by Putin.[/QUOTE]Corona was found in river in Paris, this is scary, apparently it is from toilet. I mean they should stop dumping toilet water into river, Paris is capital of France, which is g7 nation. Infrastructure has to be revised and be more hygiene. This river thing is scary, but it is good they spotted it.

[QUOTE=TheCane;2444950]France helped Saddam Hussein kick start a nuclear plant too. We know how that turned out. Bad in so, so many ways![/QUOTE]France also take political donation from Qaddafi and when it surface, France killed him LOL, it was French plane from NATO who bombarded the biggest political investor to France. Sarkozy got away with it LOL! Colonization of middle east still continued.

But French technology is not as good as German and Japanese and they should not make those plant or lab in those problem nations, they are not ready for technologies.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2444953]I love Italy, my second country, when too complicated for Russia I love also. Germany really can't compete for way of life and foods, only worth for me for brothels, escorts are usually not pretty enough in Germany. When they have enough money to afford, Germans leave Germany for Spain, France, Italy, for holidays, to be more free than in Germany.[/QUOTE]Japan has more Michelin stars than France rated by French agency Michelin for past 11 years straight. But France and Italy and also Spain has great food culture in Europe, hat off to them.

But man, way of life? Medically it is messed up there and Germany is better for that, but as for Dolce vita, Italy is more relaxed and amazing nation and also France, they are socialist close to communist, so it is good, you are protected by government and when things don't go your way, french take it to street with demonstration which in most other nation may call it more like riot LOL! With fire, destroying stores etc LOL.

France and Italy are both in g7, but lower ranked.

[QUOTE=Mursenary;2444844]That affects transmission rate but not death rate of those infected. That's a reflection of medical response. Even in the mostly densely populated NYC, death rate is still only 7% compared the 10% you see in aforementioned European countries.[/QUOTE]You are talking about the confirmed number of infected, not the actual number that's been infected. 0.56% is the death rate of those infected on Iceland. The medical response must have been amazing! Or it might have something to do with the number of tests being done. Iceland have tested over 12.5% of their population, only the Faeroe Islands comes close to that number.

Oh, you might want to know the death rate on the Faroe Islands: 0.00 %.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2444958]Like in brothels, only facts are real for me, figures for virus, today more than 40 000 deaths in US with mostly poor Afro Americans, not far from 30 millions more unemployed and more than 10 millions illegals, for country number 1 . We are not better in France with now more than 20000 deaths when I see how work in exceptional way our medical staff, and I m sure US medical staff also do great job, but too many without insurance who can't afford to pay for healthcare. But when I see old and fat in US asking to finish confined, as they ask for free weapons for mad to kill in schools, universities, churches, I don't worry anymore for them, when Trump is playing a politic game, I will worry much more for poor Africa, and this is much more important for me than brothels land and prostitutes looking for fast money, when so many Africans may die because of poverty. Maybe my communist part, even very individualist, maybe why I m so interested by Russian culture and history, except by Putin.[/QUOTE]Go to Moscow, it is only like 4 hours form Paris right?

I like Moscow, but I recommend more st petersberg.

But Moscow changed, I went there first in year 2000 and back then it was still different to Europe, but now it still is different, but it has more European side to it. Same with Almaty, I went in 1999 first time, I went back in 2017, it developed too much now to my taste, I liked it when I smelt bit of USSR feeling.

I love to go back to Romania, I have not been since 2001, it must have changed a lot, but at least I fuck their women a lot of them in Germany and zurich LOL!

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2444936]What you mean? France is responsible of organization and safety in China? But I'm happy France get ordered for building in China, and do CIA have real proof which can be controlled by everybody, when one of the less reliable organization, can compete with China for truth.[/QUOTE]Also Kim Jong un has been operated by french doctors in north Korea, but the guy is in critical condition now, thanks to French doctors for doing good job to eliminating one of the most vicious dictator, lack of skill sometime is good thing for the world LOL!

Universal healthcare is a non starter in US. As for social inequality, they can debate it forever but there will never be such a thing. Not in the US, not anywhere else. May be there will be degrees of inequality, but never any true equality.

Prosecutors say 43-year-old Baruch Feldheim hoarded the supplies in order to take advantage of the COVID-19 crisis and was selling them to doctors and nurses at prices as much as 700% above market value.

[URL]https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/medical-supplies-seized-alleged-price-gouger-distributed-hospitals/story?id=69938363[/URL]

[URL]https://youtu.be/DlaWuGj2Grw[/URL]

Nearly a million medical-grade masks and gloves that were seized this week from a Brooklyn man who was charged with lying to federal agents about price-gouging will go to medical workers in New York and New Jersey, the authorities said Thursday.

The need for masks and personal protective equipment, known as PPE, is acute in the New York metropolitan region, an epicenter of the coronavirus pandemic in the United States.

The stockpile of supplies that were seized included 192,000 N95 respirators, 130,000 surgical masks and nearly 600,000 medical grade gloves, the authorities said. They said they also had recovered surgical gowns, disinfectant towels, particulate filters, hand sanitizer and spray disinfectant.

The man who was charged with lying to federal agents, Baruch Feldheim, 43, charged a doctor $12,000 last month for a large order of masks, gowns and hazmat gear at a 700 percent markup, according to the F. Be. I. The agency called it a glaring example of hoarding of medical supplies that are designated as essential under a presidential executive order.

When the doctor went to pick up his order at an auto repair shop in Irvington, and. J. , which was being used as a warehouse, he saw so many pallets of medical gear, Clorox wipes and hand sanitizer that it would have been enough to supply an entire hospital, a criminal complaint said.

"Cracking down on the hoarding of vital supplies allows us to distribute this material to the heroic health care workers on the front lines who are most in need," Alex M. Azar II, the USA Health and Human Services secretary, said in a statement on Thursday.

Help us report in critical moments.

Subscribe today to support The Times.

When federal agents first confronted Mr. Feldheim on Sunday, he coughed in their direction and told them that he had tested positive for the coronavirus, the authorities said. He was arrested on Monday and also charged with one count of assault on a federal officer, the criminal complaint said.

Sign up to receive our daily Coronavirus Briefing, an informed guide with the latest developments and expert advice.

Mr. Feldheim's defense lawyer, James Moriarty, did not immediately respond to a request for comment on Thursday night, but Reuters reported that Mr. Moriarty had denied the charges.

In a message on Thursday to his F. B. I. Colleagues, Gregory W. Ehrie, the special agent in charge of the F. Be. I. 's Newark office, wrote that the efforts of law enforcement officers were making a difference during the health care crisis.

"It is gratifying when the challenging and risky work of our agents has such positive and tangible results," Mr. Ehrie wrote. "Profiteers need to be aware that we are looking for them and will do whatever necessary to help stem the tide of this crisis. The public needs to know that they are a force multiplier in our efforts and should bring us any information that could curtail criminal activity."

The USA Department of Health and Human Services said it would pay "fair market value" to the owner of the hoarded equipment.

The materials were inspected and redistributed to the health departments of New York State, New Jersey and New York City, the authorities said.

William K. Rashbaum and Adam Goldman contributed reporting.

Top 10 health care nations and their death rate relate:

[URL]http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20200419-coronavirus-five-countries-with-the-best-healthcare-systems[/URL]

Just read in several news sources that Oktoberfest 2020 is the latest victim of COVID-19. If people think that Sauna Clubs will reopen this summer it may be time to re-evaluate that position.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2444579]You almost make it sound like the virus has a mind of its own now, haha.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2444548]Mutations are nothing to freak out about. The flu does it all the time. It makes sense for a virus to mutate to become a nicer bedfellow because if it kills the host it kills itself. [/QUOTE][/QUOTE][I]Tell your friend that in his death, a part of you dies and goes with him. Wherever he goes, you also go. He will not be alone.[/I] -- Krishnamurti.

Sometimes I think we must put aside partisanship and listen to the other side no matter how much we detest them. What I am hearing from our little friends is a cry for help.

Coronavirus: "Please accept our apologies if you die. When these unfortunate side-effects occur, no-one is worse impacted than we ourselves. ".

Rather than being scared of mutations, we should be accelerating them, so that the enlightened tribes of Covid-20 and Covid-21 may overcome their savage forebear.

[I]Pain itself destroys pain. Suffering itself frees man from suffering.[/I] -- Krishnamurti.

Oktoberfest and FKK / saunaclubs are totally different.

The one is a MASS feast with about 100,000 folks at any point in time.

The others can be much more disciplined. Especially if you lay out the rules.

I am not giving up. Hope is the thing that dies last. Right?

[QUOTE=Chongmal;2445095]Just read in several news sources that Oktoberfest 2020 is the latest victim of COVID-19. If people think that Sauna Clubs will reopen this summer it may be time to re-evaluate that position.[/QUOTE]

No one's actually closing the cases. It requires 2 confirmed negative tests in most cases and unless you're admitted into a hospital, no one's getting test once they're better.

I'the say the healthcare system's ability to not get over run is definitely a benchmark of it's quality. Do you see the irony of all the criticism of America's poor healthcare system and fat people with comorbidities yet death rates, even in densely populated New York is much lower?

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2444942]Good point. This could "almost" isolate out all other factors, and make medical response the sole basis of comparison. But I would argue that that you must then look at the closed cases. USA has 113 K closed cases, 41 K deaths, which comes out to 37% death rate. France is 35%, Italy is 33%, Spain 21%, and Germany 5%.

[URL]https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us[/URL]

But I still don't think these numbers prove that health system in one country is any better than the other. Deaths seem to pile up when hospitals get overloaded and when the population has high comorbidities. At least the first factor is dictated more by policy makers. Procuring test kits, ventilators, and masks and deciding how early and how long to implement social distancing are outside of the healthcare system's control. USA still has 650 K open cases. If the decision to reopen is not the correct one or the reopening is not properly planned, managed, and executed, American hospitals will never get a chance to "catch up" and improve on their death rate.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=ShooBree;2445015]You are talking about the confirmed number of infected, not the actual number that's been infected. 0.56% is the death rate of those infected on Iceland. The medical response must have been amazing! Or it might have something to do with the number of tests being done. Iceland have tested over 12.5% of their population, only the Faeroe Islands comes close to that number.

Oh, you might want to know the death rate on the Faroe Islands: 0.00 %.[/QUOTE]In developed nations, the trend is that the more you test, the lower the death rate so I guess you're saying that America's true death rate is even lower. Most people who die, die in healthcare facilities. They're being tested there. The cases that go unreported are the asymptomatically affected or the mildly affected. If numbers are skewed in a particular direction, they are actually overestimating death rates.

Sweden's initial "let them reach herd immunity" stance has been well documented.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2444906]Then it should be terrible in some poor parts of the world right now, because Bergamo in Italy which was fairly badly hit, is one of the wealthiest parts of Europe. Definitely one of the wealthiest in Italy for sure![/QUOTE]Average age is part of socio-economic metrics. Prevalence of 80 year olds is as much a risk factor as prevalence of poor, sick, and younger.

[QUOTE=DasBooty;2444945]It has more to do with age. Europe has an older population than the US: [URL]https://www.prb.org/countries-with-the-oldest-populations/[/URL].[/QUOTE]Definitely a factor. More? I disagree, but a factor yes. Worth noting that Germany and Italy have the same average age but complete opposite results though. So again, it's a factor but more? Doesn't seem so.

[QUOTE=Chongmal;2445095]Just read in several news sources that Oktoberfest 2020 is the latest victim of COVID-19. If people think that Sauna Clubs will reopen this summer it may be time to re-evaluate that position.[/QUOTE]I have already gone on record here that in my view, chance of a large FKK like Sharks opening for normal business before the fall is 5% and before the year end is 25%. Those are the odds I give. Others may differ.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2445003]Corona was found in river in Paris, this is scary, apparently it is from toilet. I mean they should stop dumping toilet water into river, Paris is capital of France, which is g7 nation. Infrastructure has to be revised and be more hygiene. This river thing is scary, but it is good they spotted it.[/QUOTE]No corona problem for water in Paris and in France at the moment. I drink more Paris water than famous French wines or champagne.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2445023]Go to Moscow, it is only like 4 hours form Paris right?

I like Moscow, but I recommend more st petersberg.

But Moscow changed, I went there first in year 2000 and back then it was still different to Europe, but now it still is different, but it has more European side to it. Same with Almaty, I went in 1999 first time, I went back in 2017, it developed too much now to my taste, I liked it when I smelt bit of USSR feeling.

I love to go back to Romania, I have not been since 2001, it must have changed a lot, but at least I fuck their women a lot of them in Germany and zurich LOL![/QUOTE]Peter is for me the most beautiful town, real museum town for architecture, even more beautiful than Paris. Moscow can't compete, even very beautiful underground metro stations.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2445010]Japan has more Michelin stars than France rated by French agency Michelin for past 11 years straight. But France and Italy and also Spain has great food culture in Europe, hat off to them.

But man, way of life? Medically it is messed up there and Germany is better for that, but as for Dolce vita, Italy is more relaxed and amazing nation and also France, they are socialist close to communist, so it is good, you are protected by government and when things don't go your way, french take it to street with demonstration which in most other nation may call it more like riot LOL! With fire, destroying stores etc LOL.

France and Italy are both in g7, but lower ranked.[/QUOTE]Japan need to make image, when many of our best cookers stop with Michelin, they don't need because they are famous all over the world. For me no comparison between Italy and Japan, you fall in love when you are in Italy.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2445058]Top 10 health care nations and their death rate relate:

[URL]http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20200419-coronavirus-five-countries-with-the-best-healthcare-systems[/URL][/QUOTE]Well Mr Ho, it depends from the list you take.

If you look at the one by the World Health Organization (and not by an unknown British think tank) such list is quite different and has France and Italy at the top.

[URL]https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/best-healthcare-in-the-world/[/URL]

My points are that such lists are rather arbitrary and even the best Healthcare System is not planned to sustain extreme situations.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2445204]Japan need to make image, when many of our best cookers stop with Michelin, they don't need because they are famous all over the world. For me no comparison between Italy and Japan, you fall in love when you are in Italy.[/QUOTE]I love south Italy more than north, especially calabria where tourist is still limited in some part.

In Japan too, some chef refuse Michelin as they lose their original regular clients, it is not image thing by the way, I know some normal working class french people are known to be too proud of their own nation not knowing much about foreign nations, but it is just the fact Japan has more Michelin stars than France rated by French gourmets, but it is each their own.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2445202]Peter is for me the most beautiful town, real museum town for architecture, even more beautiful than Paris. Moscow can't compete, even very beautiful underground metro stations.[/QUOTE]Paris is image thing, it has some nice architecture, but if you actually go there, it is just partly beautiful, in most part it stinks, not clean and full of tourists, not safe. And french people are not so kind hearted especially in Paris.

Metro in Moscow is nice too by the way, but it is communist thing. To monger I like it better in Moscow, but it is pricey even you have wealthy friend.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2445199]No corona problem for water in Paris and in France at the moment. I drink more Paris water than famous French wines or champagne.[/QUOTE]Well be careful as corona was found in water source in pars as toilet water is dumped into river due to Paris water management system:

[URL]https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/No-risk-to-tap-water-as-traces-of-coronavirus-SARS-CoV-2-which-causes-Covid-19-is-found-in-Paris-non-potable-water-source[/URL]

[QUOTE=MrHo;2445010]Japan has more Michelin stars than France rated by French agency Michelin for past 11 years straight. But France and Italy and also Spain has great food culture in Europe, hat off to them.[/QUOTE]Mr Ho, don't you know that when an outsider beats you at your game, using your own measuring stick, you have the option to declare that measuring stick invalid and ignoring the results. What I enjoy about Japanese Mechelin Star chefs is that they often perfect foods from around the world, not only seeing Japanese cuisine as the only option. Amazingly, if you look around the Sauna Club scene, you may see a Star chef who enjoys dining at the why.

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2445196]I have already gone on record here that in my view, chance of a large FKK like Sharks opening for normal business before the fall is 5% and before the year end is 25%. Those are the odds I give. Others may differ.[/QUOTE]Username checks out :)

[QUOTE=MrHo;2445010]Japan has more Michelin stars than France rated by French agency Michelin for past 11 years straight.
[/QUOTE]Tokyo alone has 4 times the number of restaurants in Paris.

[QUOTE=Chongmal;2445274]Mr Ho, don't you know that when an outsider beats you at your game, using your own measuring stick, you have the option to declare that measuring stick invalid and ignoring the results. What I enjoy about Japanese Mechelin Star chefs is that they often perfect foods from around the world, not only seeing Japanese cuisine as the only option. Amazingly, if you look around the Sauna Club scene, you may see a Star chef who enjoys dining at the why.[/QUOTE]Yeah, we even has Japanese chef in Paris making French cuisine owning Michelin stars, we got the best chefs in the world.

[QUOTE=TrebleMachine;2445335]Tokyo alone has 4 times the number of restaurants in Paris.[/QUOTE]So what, we got 4 times better restaurants than Paris.

[QUOTE=Borrop74;2445224]Well Mr Ho, it depends from the list you take.

If you look at the one by the World Health Organization (and not by an unknown British think tank) such list is quite different and has France and Italy at the top.

[URL]https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/best-healthcare-in-the-world/[/URL]

My points are that such lists are rather arbitrary and even the best Healthcare System is not planned to sustain extreme situations.[/QUOTE]WHO? You mean CHO, chinese health organization.

American accusation to WHO is accurate, WHO is basically bought by China, the head of WHO is ethiopian guy and he used to be health minister back in Ethiopia which is bought by China, so you see the link? The accusation by USA government to WHO is accurate, WHO is so corrupt to the level nation can pay them to say false thing, just like at the beginning of this corona case, WHO claimed based on chinese report that covid 19 is not contagious from human to human, WHO is that corrupt to the extent if one listen to them seriously it shows ones educational level. There are more insane thing WHO said based on chinese reports which were ridiculously false, which they still claim WHO and China handle this properly, if you believe that it is your thing, but WHO is the last thing I would trust.

And WHO put Italy as top nation for medical? Look at the death rates with covid 19. Each nation has things that they are good at, Italy is good at making well designed sport cars with not reliable engineering, best tailoring especially from napoli, only tailoring that can match napoli tailor is saville row london, and south of Italy has amazing food that only France and Japan can compete and also spain too to some extent. So here is also one thing that is wrong with WHO.

Top medical nations are some european nations, Japan and usa. And sadly even then some nations do better than others, but it won't save you from corona, yesterday we just lost former ceo of omron, one of biggest medical company in the world. So one thing that is right is covid 19 do not discriminate and only medicine we got so far is avigan made by fuji film Japan for mild symptom, this was orginally made for bird flu and there is also one from american pharma, the medicine originally made for ebora that seems to be working.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2445204]Japan need to make image, when many of our best cookers stop with Michelin, they don't need because they are famous all over the world. For me no comparison between Italy and Japan, you fall in love when you are in Italy.[/QUOTE]If only Italy had FKKs or brothels like in Germany, it would become my number one and regular destination for holidays. I go quite often there for work, and indeed it has a decent, relatively cheap incall scene, which I do enjoy (especially Florence in my experience). But if they only set up FKKs there.....

[QUOTE=Mursenary;2445169]Definitely a factor. More? I disagree, but a factor yes. Worth noting that Germany and Italy have the same average age but complete opposite results though. So again, it's a factor but more? Doesn't seem so.[/QUOTE][URL]https://www.bbc.com/news/52311014[/URL]

[QUOTE=Mursenary;2444666]What's life like in western Germany? Apparently some services are now slowly opening up? Are more people out and about? Are people acting strange and scared?

It looks like Spain, France, Italy, Netherlands, UK, Belgium, Sweden, and UK are complete messes. No doubt because the first five had overly romanticized healthcare systems unable to respond to this disaster. UK and Sweden are probably doing poorly because they did too little too late.

Despite the media's portrayal of anecdotal and regional disasters, the mood in most of the US seems to be on an uptick. Some beaches are opening up. Some states are lifting stay-at-home orders while keeping social distancing measures in place. Cases and deaths have plateaued. Overall death rates are much much lower than than the previously exaggerated predictions. [B]Death rates have settled at about 2.4% of those infected 0.01% of total population, much better than the 10% death rates of infected in those mentioned EU nations and the UK.[/B] What the heck is going on over there! Personally, I think the death numbers during this whole mess is exposing how weak some these western European societies really are. Respect to certain countries like Germany, Austria, and Norway for the discipline of their people, public health programs, and medical providers. The numbers show that the US, despite being lead by a fat monkey and a microscope where the world overly dramatizes our country, has shown that you don't need a romanticized utopia to respond to this disaster.[/QUOTE]I don't care if you agree with me or not but someone in this forum might read your post and draw a asinine conclusion if they weren't presented with the fact that Europe has an older population and is more densely populated than the US.

[QUOTE=PunterWanderer;2445489]If only Italy had FKKs or brothels like in Germany, it would become my number one and regular destination for holidays. I go quite often there for work, and indeed it has a decent, relatively cheap incall scene, which I do enjoy (especially Florence in my experience). But if they only set up FKKs there.....[/QUOTE]For sure, no competition between Italy and Germany, for foods, for way of life, ask Germans who can afford, where they prefer to spend holidays, Germany would be empty. Until 2016, Milano and even sometimes Torino did worth for escorts with your dream girls, Amore Russo, Russian girls.

When we see Florida beaches, people claiming against confined, just crazy, let's count how many thousands for the world record and how many unemployed. They think they are stronger than others. Only smokers seem not too infected, but old and fat are in danger.

[QUOTE=DasBooty;2445490][URL]https://www.bbc.com/news/52311014[/URL]

I don't care if you agree with me or not but someone in this forum might read your post and draw a asinine conclusion if they weren't presented with the fact that Europe has an older population and is more densely populated than the US.[/QUOTE]All good but I keep just presenting data in the form of rates. Reading the BBC article, it just shows that countries like the UK are underestimating their rates since they are not counting nursing home rates which further makes my case. As opposed to the US where NYC recently added 3 thousand cases that were presumed COVID without a confirmed test.

[URL]https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/nursing-homes-remain-a-concern-as-new-yorks-coronavirus-outbreak-appears-to-plateau-11586892250[/URL]

Most importantly and constantly ignored by the population density proponents here. NYC's death rate sit at roughly 50-60% the rate of the 13+% death rate countries like UK, Italy, and France. NYC is more dense than any city or country in Europe and their death rate is the highest in the Us.

The only factor is that UK and France are testing at a lower rate so presumably healthy positives are not being discounted. But despite this, even if their testing were bumped up to match the rate of the United States, their death rates of 13% would still only be lowered enough to match NYC's if, proportionate to testing rate, every single extra test resulted as positive with no death.

Is the 2 year average age difference the only remaining argument here? You'the think that the fat / sick American comorbidities argument would counteract that.

All that being said, we're about to reopen half of America in a pretty unrestrained fashion in comparison to Germany and Nordic countries and all hell might break loose. I can't and won't defend the actions of politicians though. I'm only defending the United States' response from a healthcare system perspective up until this peak where social distancing has been practiced, and the data have shown that we've comparatively done just fine despite sensationalized media coverage.

[QUOTE=Mursenary;2444666]the UKWhat the heck is going on over there![/QUOTE]Hello from the UK! What is going on? We are at the peak. For two weeks we've had 700+ deaths per day (save one day below 500). You are right. We reacted too late, but the big difference between us and say Germany is the awful testing rates.

Announced today in UK. Social distancing measures until end of 2020. So I think the large number of UK guys going to FKKs from the UK (me included) are unlikely to be visiting at all in 2020 whenever they finally reopen. I suspect some will close for good due to the financial bite but hope the big clubs, Sharks, Oase, Artemis, Mainhattan and Palace survive for 2021!

[QUOTE=PunterWanderer;2445489]If only Italy had FKKs or brothels like in Germany, it would become my number one and regular destination for holidays. I go quite often there for work, and indeed it has a decent, relatively cheap incall scene, which I do enjoy (especially Florence in my experience). But if they only set up FKKs there.....[/QUOTE]With their organization and problem with corruption and mafia, I do not think it will be possible and above all law has to be adjusted like Germany did before FKK to be open in Italy.

However, with Italy's financial difficulty before corona and now it is even worst, there could be some area to debate for such prostitution format to be open there, but I think Italy would go for Chinese easy money again, which world warned them about before corona, but they did not listen and look happen to Italy now.

It is sad because it is beautiful country.

[QUOTE=PayForIt;2445513]I suspect some will close for good due to the financial bite but hope the big clubs, Sharks, Oase, Artemis, Mainhattan and Palace survive for 2021![/QUOTE]Also hope FKK Atmos and FKK Babylon Hamburg make it. I too look to return in 2021, but won't if we still have to do things like quarantine for 2 weeks upon arrival. In the meantime, no more pacing around and around and around the club for you Sir PayForIt LOLOLOL! Not until 2021, we hope!

[QUOTE=PayForIt;2445513]Hello from the UK! What is going on? We are at the peak. For two weeks we've had 700+ deaths per day (save one day below 500). You are right. We reacted too late, but the big difference between us and say Germany is the awful testing rates.

Announced today in UK. Social distancing measures until end of 2020. So I think the large number of UK guys going to FKKs from the UK (me included) are unlikely to be visiting at all in 2020 whenever they finally reopen. I suspect some will close for good due to the financial bite but hope the big clubs, Sharks, Oase, Artemis, Mainhattan and Palace survive for 2021![/QUOTE]Well, at least BoJo is going in the right direction if reacting late. Being on a death bed does wonders to attain Nirvana and enlightenment. In here, our bozo president has been in a rush to reopen. First, he threatened Churches will be full by Easter at a time when even Mr. Poly is following social distancing, LOL. Now, his sidekick in Georgia is reopening by this weekend. The Georgia governor is saying people in his state should follow appropriate social distancing while he is opening salons, tattoo parlors etc. Apparently, barbers and tattoo artists in the state of Georgia have hands longer than 6 feet.

For the last 3 to 4 weeks IHME has been forecasting UK will have the worst death tolls in Europe by the end of summer. At first, it didn't make sense, as at that time, Italy looked awful and yet IHME was saying UK death toll will be almost twice as much as Italy toll. Now, it seems UK indeed did screw up, but then again, we are numero uno in global death tolls. Our latest attempt to make our country great again.

[QUOTE=PayForIt;2445513]Hello from the UK! What is going on? We are at the peak. For two weeks we've had 700+ deaths per day (save one day below 500). You are right. We reacted too late, but the big difference between us and say Germany is the awful testing rates.

Announced today in UK. Social distancing measures until end of 2020. So I think the large number of UK guys going to FKKs from the UK (me included) are unlikely to be visiting at all in 2020 whenever they finally reopen. I suspect some will close for good due to the financial bite but hope the big clubs, Sharks, Oase, Artemis, Mainhattan and Palace survive for 2021![/QUOTE]Till end of this year? Well if so, UK economy will be destroyed even more than it was before and be ready for China to buy UK for cheap price.

China began to buy up Brent oil that is so low due to covid 19 crisis and failure of OPEC plus, namely Saudi and Russian government.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2445204]Japan need to make image, when many of our best cookers stop with Michelin, they don't need because they are famous all over the world. For me no comparison between Italy and Japan, you fall in love when you are in Italy.[/QUOTE]This is hilarious. It's not even close that Japan is leaps and bounds above Italy in culinary arts. Want simple good food, sure Italy is great. For true culinary art, it's Japan 100 x.

[QUOTE=PayForIt;2445513]Hello from the UK! What is going on? We are at the peak. For two weeks we've had 700+ deaths per day (save one day below 500). You are right. We reacted too late, but the big difference between us and say Germany is the awful testing rates.

Announced today in UK. Social distancing measures until end of 2020. So I think the large number of UK guys going to FKKs from the UK (me included) are unlikely to be visiting at all in 2020 whenever they finally reopen. I suspect some will close for good due to the financial bite but hope the big clubs, Sharks, Oase, Artemis, Mainhattan and Palace survive for 2021![/QUOTE]In 3 or 4 last days, + 10000 in US, but they are enjoying Florida beaches, they go to religious meetings, God will protect them to catch, when spreading in France started after a religious meeting close to Germany and Switzerland and people returning at home with virus. They also ask to stop confined. Like for free weapons, just danger.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2445250]Paris is image thing, it has some nice architecture, but if you actually go there, it is just partly beautiful, in most part it stinks, not clean and full of tourists, not safe. And french people are not so kind hearted especially in Paris..[/QUOTE]Mr Ho,

I often, but not always, agree with your views.

But I think you should look at your own people occasionally before making harsh comments on others.

I love Japan, been there more than 50 times in the last 20 years, longing to be allowed in back, f. 100's of women there. But like all places, like Paris it has its dark sides. Such as open xenophobia: How often did I get the cross arms sign when trying to enter a public place (and not always sex related shops)? And, although this is less the case since a few years, how often did people getting in to the subway tried sitting as far from me as they could? And especially in more remote parts of the country (I have driven all over Japan.), if you don't at least speak a few words, a foreigner just can't get to a traditional restaurant or ryoken. "Japanese Only " sign is just something which would be illegal in most other democracies.

I have made the effort to learn basic Japanese which has changed a lot the way the locals treat me. I don't think many Japanese visiting France have made the same effort, and still they will be accepted in any business.

Cheers!

[QUOTE=PayForIt;2445513]Hello from the UK! What is going on? We are at the peak. For two weeks we've had 700+ deaths per day (save one day below 500). You are right. We reacted too late, but the big difference between us and say Germany is the awful testing rates.

Announced today in UK. Social distancing measures until end of 2020. So I think the large number of UK guys going to FKKs from the UK (me included) are unlikely to be visiting at all in 2020 whenever they finally reopen. I suspect some will close for good due to the financial bite but hope the big clubs, Sharks, Oase, Artemis, Mainhattan and Palace survive for 2021![/QUOTE]I'm sure social distancing measures will be the norm for many other countries too. That being said, I'm guessing that society will not be shut down in the UK for the rest of 2020. Perhaps capacity limits will be in place and adorning protective gear may be an option. No way British pubs remain completely closed throughout the year right? Right!

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2445543]Well, at least BoJo is going in the right direction if reacting late. Being on a death bed does wonders to attain Nirvana and enlightenment. In here, our bozo president has been in a rush to reopen. First, he threatened Churches will be full by Easter at a time when even Mr. Poly is following social distancing, LOL. Now, his sidekick in Georgia is reopening by this weekend. The Georgia governor is saying people in his state should follow appropriate social distancing while he is opening salons, tattoo parlors etc. Apparently, barbers and tattoo artists in the state of Georgia have hands longer than 6 feet.

For the last 3 to 4 weeks IHME has been forecasting UK will have the worst death tolls in Europe by the end of summer. At first, it didn't make sense, as at that time, Italy looked awful and yet IHME was saying UK death toll will be almost twice as much as Italy toll. Now, it seems UK indeed did screw up, but then again, we are numero uno in global death tolls. Our latest attempt to make our country great again.[/QUOTE]The Biggest failure for USA is the number of newly unemployed, truly horrifying. Trump have to open up the country. Stop destroying the world economy and the lives of millions.

These draconian measures have done more harm than good, let's get smart about it.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2445546]Till end of this year? Well if so, UK economy will be destroyed even more than it was before and be ready for China to buy UK for cheap price.

China began to buy up Brent oil that is so low due to covid 19 crisis and failure of OPEC plus, namely Saudi and Russian government.[/QUOTE]Was virus a strategy to spread power?

[QUOTE=MrHo;2445250]Paris is image thing, it has some nice architecture, but if you actually go there, it is just partly beautiful, in most part it stinks, not clean and full of tourists, not safe. And french people are not so kind hearted especially in Paris.
[/QUOTE][URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_syndrome[/URL]

[QUOTE=Mursenary;2445563]This is hilarious. It's not even close that Japan is leaps and bounds above Italy in culinary arts. Want simple good food, sure Italy is great. For true culinary art, it's Japan 100 x.[/QUOTE]I will keep on preferring Italy, Spain, Lebanon, than Asian foods.

[QUOTE=TrebleMachine;2445718][URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_syndrome[/URL][/QUOTE]Never been to Paris, mainly due to no FKKs. But also because around here it has the reputation of being a bit gay, with men using too much styling of clothes and hair, and acting like desperate once they see a northern girl. So it comes off as trying to impress people in a bit fake manner.

But lately some people also claim that is not the situation any longer too. But with corona, Who knows? We can't even travel anywhere.

[QUOTE=Dreams;2445624]
I love Japan, been there more than 50 times in the last 20 years, longing to be allowed in back, f. 100's of women there. But like all places, like Paris it has its dark sides. Such as open xenophobia: How often did I get the cross arms sign when trying to enter a public place (and not always sex related shops)?[/QUOTE]Salaam Dreams,

If you encounter xenophobia in Paris or Tokyo, just whip out your Qur'an and start chanting. Works wonders for me. If God is on my side, who will be against me?

The modern equivalent would be to cough your way through the door.

The US has a total of less than 1000 deaths in the last 5 days. We have a total of less than 50000 deaths nationwide for the entire pandemic. In a nation of 330,000,000 people. Yes, a lot of us are finished watching politicians grab for power using the pandemic as an excuse, and we are hitting the streets to protest.

[QUOTE=Mursenary;2445563]This is hilarious. It's not even close that Japan is leaps and bounds above Italy in culinary arts. Want simple good food, sure Italy is great. For true culinary art, it's Japan 100 x.[/QUOTE]Tongue-in-cheek-article by British author who lives in Italy and is not a fan Italian food:

[QUOTE]"A few months ago, Nigerian migrants housed at a government hostel in Milan suddenly refused to eat any more of the free food on offer. Italian food is monotonous and indigestable, they explained. Then they went berserk."

https://life.spectator.co.uk/articles/even-hunry-migrants-wont-eat-the-food-in-italy/
[/QUOTE]In general, Italians don't have an appreciation for non-Italian food. Older Italians are set in their ways. Italians under age of 25 haven't discovered anything beyond McDonalds yet. Italians between ages of 25-35 are slightly more open-minded perhaps due to instagram and "foodie" culture. But overall, there is not a lot of ethnic food in Italy, besides cheap all you can eat Chinese buffet. Most Italians don't realize that the Chinese customers either order from a completely different menu or they go to different Chinese restaurants where the clientele is 80 percent Chinese. In other words, the average Italians' appreciation of Chinese food, would be the equivalent of one of us judging Romanian beauty based off of a one time visit to an AO club that only had six WGs in their daily LU.

[QUOTE=Mursenary;2445499]\NYC's death rate sit at roughly 50-60% the rate of the 13+% death rate countries like UK, Italy, and France. NYC is more dense than any city or country in Europe and their death rate is the highest in the Us.[/QUOTE]Here are the death rates for Germany and Korea: 65 deaths per million, 5 deaths per million.

Korea's health care system is world class, but are you going to tell me it is 13 times better than that of Germany? Of course not, Korea's numbers are low because their government was more prepared and did not underestimate the threat.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2445761]Here are the death rates for Germany and Korea: 65 deaths per million, 5 deaths per million.

Korea's health care system is world class, but are you going to tell me it is 13 times better than that of Germany? Of course not, Korea's numbers are low because their government was more prepared and did not underestimate the threat.[/QUOTE]Definitely not 13 times better if any better at all. I wouldn't dare say that the healthcare system quality and death rates have a true linear correlation. Now the preparedness of the Korean government and its people status post SARS circa 2004 may however have an exponential correlation to their low death rates.

Fact remains, US has one of the highest ICU beds per capita, dialysis machines per capita, ventilators per capita in the world. The fact that we traditionally spend / waste tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars per patient per ICU visit to revive people who will surely survive to only live a poor quality of life has trained our healthcare providers for this outbreak. Our system is built to handle the extremely sick, we're used to high acuity patients. It's just the primary care system and general health of the population where there are holes.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2445717]Was virus a strategy to spread power?[/QUOTE]I do not think China leaked it on purpose, no, they are not that crazy, but they will use it to buy out companies etc to spread power, and they already began, they are buying up rock bottom Brent oil now and their rapid movement in south China sea with battle ship after a US air craft carrier is taken out with virus.

[QUOTE=BodyAnybody;2445746]The US has a total of less than 1000 deaths in the last 5 days. We have a total of less than 50000 deaths nationwide for the entire pandemic. In a nation of 330,000,000 people. Yes, a lot of us are finished watching politicians grab for power using the pandemic as an excuse, and we are hitting the streets to protest.[/QUOTE]Well, actually over 2000 per day, so perhaps you meant 10 K?

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2445743]Salaam Dreams,

If you encounter xenophobia in Paris or Tokyo, just whip out your Qur'an and start chanting. Works wonders for me. If God is on my side, who will be against me?

The modern equivalent would be to cough your way through the door.[/QUOTE]Actually, Japan is one of most pro Muslim nation, we are more neutral toward them. As an example, Japan is one of most understanding of ally of Iran, it is just that Japan is always sandwiched between USA and Saudi Arabia, which both are good friend of Japan, but they both hate Iran, but we try to be intermediary, which is proved to be impossibly hard LOL.

[QUOTE=TrebleMachine;2445718][URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_syndrome[/URL][/QUOTE]Its a nice city, but it is not as good as image they managed to build. French and Italian are best for marketing. I mean look at their fashion industry LOL!. It is quality product, but when they begin selling hand bag for 6000 euro minimum up to half million dollar for Himalayan chroco Hermes bag LOL, it is called best marketing in the world. So it is good quality place, but not as good as they managed to market it.

[QUOTE=Mursenary;2445499]All good but I keep just presenting data in the form of rates. Reading the BBC article, it just shows that countries like the UK are underestimating their rates since they are not counting nursing home rates which further makes my case.[/QUOTE]The takeaway from the article:

[QUOTE]For comparisons to be useful, says Rowland Kao, professor of data science at the University of Edinburgh, there are two broad issues to consider.

"Does the underlying data mean the same thing? And does it make sense to compare two sets of numbers if the epidemiology (all the other factors surrounding the spread of the disease) is different?"[/QUOTE]As long as countries test and report differently comparisons won't be useful. Unless you are this clown [URL]https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2020/04/22/rtx7e5su_custom-83a53661626292123cbf6eb597d8035bd7b40079-s800-c85.jpg[/URL].

[QUOTE=Pistons;2445742]Never been to Paris, mainly due to no FKKs. But also because around here it has the reputation of being a bit gay, with men using too much styling of clothes and hair, and acting like desperate once they see a northern girl. So it comes off as trying to impress people in a bit fake manner.

But lately some people also claim that is not the situation any longer too. But with corona, Who knows? We can't even travel anywhere.[/QUOTE]But Russian, Belarus, Latvian, Estonian, Polish, Croatian escorts, even we lost when closed on 2016 after police raid, probably best escorts agency, Amour Russe.

I think Paris is famous enough all over the world, I don t need to promote. Only Saint Petersburg, Roma, Athens and a bit different but Istanbul and Jerusalem can compete with Paris, I mean for culture. But many of our best cooker and restaurants are in other parts of France. Center and around Lyon are famous for high level restaurants. Most of our best cooker are famous enough and don t need anymore guide Michelin promotion, only useful for those who look for promotion. Paris water is still safe for me, and used by more than 10 millions people around.

But too many deaths, around 21 000 deaths now from covid in France, 80% older than 70 yo and 67% of others with health problems. Confined since 17 March would have saved more than 60 000 life, and only about 5% people were infected, according to our medical staff. Under confined until 11 May, but restart work on field with my teams on 1 April, after getting administration allowances about safety conditions made for guys. But, like me, they are happy to work to have full earning to eat. In France, unemployed are paid 84% but with a limit, I would not be paid 84% of my full earning, so I prefer to work, at same risk with my guys, and to pay tax for my country which should be at least 200 billions deficit at the end of the year. Real crisis. My guys are funny, telling me when they came back after about 2 or 3 weeks: We are better to work, we were bored with wife all day at home. Maybe should have been good time to seduce her again and to fuck her a lot, like a princess, to give her plenty of orgasms, then usually women ask for again, when they often find guys boring for sex.

Dreams, your mailbox is full but I posted a question for you in the FKK Lounge.

[QUOTE=PayForIt;2445513]Hello from the UK! What is going on? We are at the peak. For two weeks we've had 700+ deaths per day (save one day below 500). You are right. We reacted too late, but the big difference between us and say Germany is the awful testing rates.

Announced today in UK. Social distancing measures until end of 2020. So I think the large number of UK guys going to FKKs from the UK (me included) are unlikely to be visiting at all in 2020 whenever they finally reopen. I suspect some will close for good due to the financial bite but hope the big clubs, Sharks, Oase, Artemis, Mainhattan and Palace survive for 2021![/QUOTE]Today I am happy that I have both a UK and Swedish passport. I have stayed in Sweden for the last 2 months so I have avoided the UK lockdown. UK is in a bit of mess battling this but Swedens strategy is terrible in my opinion. It is saved because of the low density of population. Hope Sharks make it so I can go in December, Screw the rest of the clubs.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2445788]Its a nice city, but it is not as good as image they managed to build. French and Italian are best for marketing. I mean look at their fashion industry LOL!. It is quality product, but when they begin selling hand bag for 6000 euro minimum up to half million dollar for Himalayan chroco Hermes bag LOL, it is called best marketing in the world. So it is good quality place, but not as good as they managed to market it.[/QUOTE]Paris, Italy are glamour, where is glamour in Asia, or even US now, except Victoria secret. Many Russian escorts go to Dubaï for big money, or to Ibiza for party, but most don't return, but they return to Paris where less money to make, but for fashion. I m happy about that.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2446005]Paris, Italy are glamour, where is glamour in Asia,[/QUOTE]It is very locallized in Asia. You can probably never find a single pure glam city. But many cities with a few glam places around Asia. Singapore, Hong Kong and Tokyo of course. But also Shanghai can be very upscale. I only know Singapore and HK very well myself, but have friends in the other two also. Even Bangkok, Beijing and Shenzhen has some upscale places now. All of which I have been to.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2446005]Paris, Italy are glamour, where is glamour in Asia, or even US now, except Victoria secret. Many Russian escorts go to Duba for big money, or to Ibiza for party, but most don't return, but they return to Paris where less money to make, but for fashion. I m happy about that.[/QUOTE]Do you know that each Asian nations are different?

Like Kyoto is by far more beautiful than Paris, more safe, more clean as well with better food, but it is different, I like Paris, but I am saying it is over hyped with not good quality, it is more marketing based city, that is Paris.

Where as Japan, Tokyo and Kyoto etc. We don't do marketing much, foreign people did marketing for me and hey it was mostly french fashion industry people who loved Japan and did marketing for us by word of mouth based on quality.

I recommend to be more culturally aware and travel bit more and learn that Asia is not country LOL. There are Japan, China, Thailand, Indonesia etc etc. And they are all completely different.

I am very well traveled, well educated, well cultured guy and I know all European nations are different, and I have been to most European nations both west and east, so learn that Asia is continent and not one country LOL.

France and Japan are actually two biggest partner for most highest culture, it is too sad that in France, only top people in fashion industry and politicians and such knows about this and working class citizens are still limited on knowledge about high quality of Japanese culture even with food you don't know LOL.

I thought Victoria Secrets went bankrupt though. Too hard competition with Wish and Ali-Express I suppose.

But the sad part about Asia is actually how it turns more 'glam'. Because the east Asian idea of glam is more like KTVS. Translation: 'Korny Trivial Vinegar Strokes'. Koreans, Chinese and probably Japanese also have already ruined large parts of SE asia with their imported KTV's: Which are basically over expensive talk-bars where the girls are dressed up in long dresses. And everything is an extra. Plus you need to pay a lot of ladies drinks. Biggest waste of time you do in Asia is ending up in these places. Something I've done in Macau, Bangkok, Manila, Angeles, Changping and Saigon. Only Changping was fine because I skipped all the wasted talk. But that was just before the crackdown. So no more. And some other places I had to use a local as a translator. LOL! That was a bit weird to say the least.

[QUOTE=McGrath;2445984]Swedens strategy is terrible in my opinion. It is saved because of the low density of population.[/QUOTE]It is no more sparse than Texas.

Sweden has achieved similar results to other European countries -- but without any lockdown at all. Its strategy is herd immunity. If this works, then in a couple of weeks time Sweden will enjoy results considerable better than everyone else. Then the other countries will quietly abandon the concept of lockdown and let the economy run free again.

Inshallah!

By the way this is a great resource to see which countries are in lockdown and which are not:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-52103747

How can you say that if Japan has one of the lowest if not the lowest Muslim percentage of total population among major countries in the world. Plus, it is not difficult to find reports on Japan trying to avoid Muslim immigrants as much as possible over the past years. On the other hand, why don't you ask the admin to open a sub-forum here which is called: Japan is great.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2445787]Actually, Japan is one of most pro Muslim nation, we are more neutral toward them. As an example, Japan is one of most understanding of ally of Iran, it is just that Japan is always sandwiched between USA and Saudi Arabia, which both are good friend of Japan, but they both hate Iran, but we try to be intermediary, which is proved to be impossibly hard LOL.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2445892]But Russian, Belarus, Latvian, Estonian, Polish, Croatian escorts, even we lost when closed on 2016 after police raid, probably best escorts agency, Amour Russe.

I think Paris is famous enough all over the world, I don t need to promote. Only Saint Petersburg, Roma, Athens and a bit different but Istanbul and Jerusalem can compete with Paris, I mean for culture. [/QUOTE]You started off well. But then you seemed to lost track of what isgers define as culture. Bangkok, Frankfurt, Rio, Macau, Dusseldorf, Prague, Madrid, Barcelona, Bogota, Cali. Now there is some culture!

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2446065]It is no more sparse than Texas.

Sweden has achieved similar results to other European countries -- but without any lockdown at all. Its strategy is herd immunity. If this works, then in a couple of weeks time Sweden will enjoy results considerable better than everyone else. Then the other countries will quietly abandon the concept of lockdown and let the economy run free again.

Inshallah!

By the way this is a great resource to see which countries are in lockdown and which are not:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-52103747[/QUOTE]The open strategy works very good here in Sweden.

Estimations show that at least 1/3 of population in Stockholm is immune now. Authorities expect that 50 percent will be immune within one month.

There will probably be a second BIG wave of Corona in autumn. Then lock-down countries are unprotected.

Sweden will be protected by heard immunity.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2446096]You started off well. But then you seemed to lost track of what isgers define as culture. Bangkok, Frankfurt, Rio, Macau, Dusseldorf, Prague, Madrid, Barcelona, Bogota, Cali. Now there is some culture![/QUOTE]These are all top destinations, I just wonder which one I will be able to reach first.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2446096]You started off well. But then you seemed to lost track of what isgers define as culture. Bangkok, Frankfurt, Rio, Macau, Dusseldorf, Prague, Madrid, Barcelona, Bogota, Cali. Now there is some culture![/QUOTE]I really apologize, I was not on this level of culture for below belt. At the moment, I worry much about crisis than paid sex. When I went weekly, but I manage easy without. No frustration, only big one about no ski. I'm more in hurry to get freedom than paid sex. When open, I go, when closed, I live without, I'm a simple man, easy.

[QUOTE=Downandup;2446157]These are all top destinations, I just wonder which one I will be able to reach first.[/QUOTE]Among Spain, NL, Switzerland, Germany and Austria, I think Austria should open first. Maybe time to discover Vienna, because I don t know how Wellcum and Andiamo can work without Italians, when they are more Italian than Austrian. Maybe before Summer for Austria.

[QUOTE=Arnold15;2446129]The open strategy works very good here in Sweden.

Estimations show that at least 1/3 of population in Stockholm is immune now. Authorities expect that 50 percent will be immune within one month.

There will probably be a second BIG wave of Corona in autumn. Then lock-down countries are unprotected.

Sweden will be protected by heard immunity.[/QUOTE]Because you think catching and recovering make immune? Not so sure for weakest. I think we have to live with this virus risk now, kind of Russian roulette.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2446171]Because you think catching and recovering make immune? Not so sure for weakest. I think we have to live with this virus risk now, kind of Russian roulette.[/QUOTE]Yes, catching and recovering = immune.

Definitely.

WHO and China spread fake news that there is no immunity.

But there is a Hidden Agenda.

China WANTS the U.S. and Europe to lock-down, so China can gain economic advantages.

New BIG immunity test undertaken in Stockholm will be presented in news tomorrow.

I will then link.

Provisonal estimates show "considerably higher immunity" than Chinese tests (2-3 % immune = fake).

[QUOTE=McGrath;2445984]Today I am happy that I have both a UK and Swedish passport. I have stayed in Sweden for the last 2 months so I have avoided the UK lockdown. UK is in a bit of mess battling this but Swedens strategy is terrible in my opinion. It is saved because of the low density of population. Hope Sharks make it so I can go in December, Screw the rest of the clubs.[/QUOTE]You say that the Swedish strategy is terrible at the same time as you actively have chosen to stay there over the UK. It makes no sense at all. But to be honest, Sweden had the opportunity to stay in lockdown for a month, two or even up to four considering our low national debt. The government was too cheap to do that.

Too bad though that the lockdowns aren't working out especially well in Spain, Italy, France, Belgium, Netherlands, UK, USA, Switzerland and Ireland.

I agree. And I think more and more countries will adopt the Swedish model.

I fear who just want to vaccinate us with some hybrid virus that will make us half sick and ruin our immune systems for the rest of our lives. So funk that!

Better just take the blunt and come out on the other side stronger. If 5% dies, so what? Not like the world will run out of people any time soon.

We probably won't get enough antigens from just one period with the virus. But after 3 or 4 we will see immunity get quite good! So many people will just have to die in the next years.

[QUOTE=Arnold15;2446188]Yes, catching and recovering = immune.

Definitely.

WHO and China spread fake news that there is no immunity.

But there is a Hidden Agenda.

China WANTS the U.S. and Europe to lock-down, so China can gain economic advantages..[/QUOTE]Of course, that's why they have been in lockdown too, they wanted to give economic advantages. That's so logic.

Following your logic, maybe you Swedish people are the one with an agenda with your 'no lockdown' strategy.

[QUOTE=McGrath;2445984]Today I am happy that I have both a UK and Swedish passport. I have stayed in Sweden for the last 2 months so I have avoided the UK lockdown. UK is in a bit of mess battling this but Swedens strategy is terrible in my opinion. It is saved because of the low density of population. Hope Sharks make it so I can go in December, Screw the rest of the clubs.[/QUOTE]The Swedish strategy based on minimal restrictions is terrible but yet you stay to enjoy it.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2446061]Do you know that each Asian nations are different?

Like Kyoto is by far more beautiful than Paris, more safe, more clean as well with better food, but it is different, I like Paris, but I am saying it is over hyped with not good quality, it is more marketing based city, that is Paris.

Where as Japan, Tokyo and Kyoto etc. We don't do marketing much, foreign people did marketing for me and hey it was mostly french fashion industry people who loved Japan and did marketing for us by word of mouth based on quality.

I recommend to be more culturally aware and travel bit more and learn that Asia is not country LOL. There are Japan, China, Thailand, Indonesia etc etc. And they are all completely different.

I am very well traveled, well educated, well cultured guy and I know all European nations are different, and I have been to most European nations both west and east, so learn that Asia is continent and not one country LOL.

France and Japan are actually two biggest partner for most highest culture, it is too sad that in France, only top people in fashion industry and politicians and such knows about this and working class citizens are still limited on knowledge about high quality of Japanese culture even with food you don't know LOL.[/QUOTE]Don't you know I'm a cheap french guy sleeping in his car to pay FKK entry to eat good foods, but under crisis I'm at work and pay tax for my country when many don't work. What I'm sure is I don't know much of Japan, but you don't know France nor Paris. I learned at school Japan and China are not friends. When I don't like a country or culture, I don't go. Despite crisis, I will run to Italy I love for my holidays, to eat daily pasta, like all along the year, but in Italy, I eat for breakfast, lunch and diner. I think I m only European and wish Western Europe will learn from this crisis and become again more independent for our safety.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2446171]Because you think catching and recovering make immune? Not so sure for weakest. I think we have to live with this virus risk now, kind of Russian roulette.[/QUOTE]Or Chinese roulette.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2446171]Because you think catching and recovering make immune? Not so sure for weakest. I think we have to live with this virus risk now, kind of Russian roulette.[/QUOTE]It is just that certain part of Europe and USA did not have good medical system enough and also let the situation destroy their medical system, so they could not treat patients with heavy symptoms in hospitals without enough medicines and medical equipment like life supporting system, artificial lung to the extent doctors had to decide who they give these machines too.

If it is in stage of mild symptom within 6 weeks of infections, Avigan can fix you unless you don't have diabetes or cancer or some heavy diseases.

Death rates could have been controlled where as infection rate with this disease is very hard to control as it is easily infected.

In big part, it is typical western ignorance thinking they know it all from the past, even with mask they did not listen till recently.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2446212]I agree. And I think more and more countries will adopt the Swedish model.

I fear who just want to vaccinate us with some hybrid virus that will make us half sick and ruin our immune systems for the rest of our lives. So funk that!

Better just take the blunt and come out on the other side stronger. If 5% dies, so what? Not like the world will run out of people any time soon.

We probably won't get enough antigens from just one period with the virus. But after 3 or 4 we will see immunity get quite good! So many people will just have to die in the next years.[/QUOTE]You were criticizing Swedish model before and now news says it begin to show effect and you turn your opinion? LOL.

Swedish model is radical model, which I always said they are smart and they know what they are doing, but it is with too much risk and human life cost too, the best is balanced model. Don't lock it down totally, don't test everybody to keep medical care system active and working for rainy day to come to control death rate.

The most important thing is to save people from dying and without hospitals working properly and no life supporting equipment, medicines like Avigan, artificial lung etc. It will be hard to save people from dying.

Anyways, summer is around corner, so let hope weather may fix the situation temporary. Some claim it can, some say it won't, but time will tell.

[QUOTE=PonyBoy;2446077]How can you say that if Japan has one of the lowest if not the lowest Muslim percentage of total population among major countries in the world. Plus, it is not difficult to find reports on Japan trying to avoid Muslim immigrants as much as possible over the past years. On the other hand, why don't you ask the admin to open a sub-forum here which is called: Japan is great.[/QUOTE]We avoid immigrant in general as it is not good for nation, but we take in some that are chosen arguably. We do not want to experience what happened to Europe, we prefer to do it more control to choose right people.

However, we have many Iranian immigrants by the way and Turkish.

No I don't need to ask, Japan is one of the best reputed nation in the world and this is just based on plain fact. But it is for more intelligent people.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2446212]If 5% dies, so what? Not like the world will run out of people any time soon.[/QUOTE]That's what Thanos said. And look what happened to him. Except his figure was 50%. Imagine the economic fallout from that. Yeah we have it lucky.

[QUOTE=BigBuddy69;2446236]Of course, that's why they have been in lockdown too, they wanted to give economic advantages. That's so logic
[/QUOTE]When news of the Wu-flu came out in February, these two possibilities immediately popped into my head:

1. It was started by the US to create chaos in China.

2. It was started by China because they knew they could survive it, but it would target the biggest weakness of their biggest rival: the health system.

It's sort of like when the US started feminism within their own borders because they figured they could survive it but once it spread to other countries those cultures would be hopelessly eroded. The UK is a good example.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2446263]Or Chinese roulette.[/QUOTE]Yes, my mistake. But I often dream about mysterious Russia.

[QUOTE=Arnold15;2446188]Yes, catching and recovering = immune.

Definitely.

WHO and China spread fake news that there is no immunity.

But there is a Hidden Agenda.

China WANTS the U.S. and Europe to lock-down, so China can gain economic advantages.

New BIG immunity test undertaken in Stockholm will be presented in news tomorrow.

I will then link.

Provisonal estimates show "considerably higher immunity" than Chinese tests (2-3 % immune = fake).[/QUOTE]French doctors are not so sure about recovering giving immunity, when virus not only attack lungs, but also sometimes blood. I don't think world know much about this unknown virus which can mutate, but would be happy if you were right, because world will already have many deaths and big economic crisis.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2446212]If 5% dies, so what? Not like the world will run out of people any time soon.
[/QUOTE]It now looks like the actual death rate is more like 0.4%, not 5%.

[URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcFcdrqL7GQ[/URL]

[QUOTE=Pistons;2446212]I agree. And I think more and more countries will adopt the Swedish model.

I fear who just want to vaccinate us with some hybrid virus that will make us half sick and ruin our immune systems for the rest of our lives. So funk that!

Better just take the blunt and come out on the other side stronger. If 5% dies, so what? Not like the world will run out of people any time soon.

We probably won't get enough antigens from just one period with the virus. But after 3 or 4 we will see immunity get quite good! So many people will just have to die in the next years.[/QUOTE]OK. So you're ready to die or to see your family dying?

Or to have your lungs fucked up for the rest of your life?

[QUOTE=Pistons;2446263]Or Chinese roulette.[/QUOTE]Well that Chinese roulette definitely caught up with Spain, Italy and France, most highest death rate nations. It is war level death for these 3 nations.

[QUOTE=BigBuddy69;2446419]OK. So you're ready to die or to see your family dying?

Or to have your lungs fucked up for the rest of your life?[/QUOTE]Already had it myself.

[QUOTE=Smoothy;2446395]It now looks like the actual death rate is more like 0.4%, not 5%.

[URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcFcdrqL7GQ[/URL][/QUOTE]But there are different mutations with different severity. And if you get it 3 or 4 times, perhaps some will even die on round 2 or 3 or 4 as well. And finally, it seems to attack people with certain genes harder than others, and many countries don't have the same medical system, nor the same level of wealth. So globally it can still be 5%. Not a single study so far takes even half of these factors into account. And most countries don't even count more than a fraction of the deaths also. They blame other factors.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2446298]That's what Thanos said. And look what happened to him. Except his figure was 50%. Imagine the economic fallout from that. Yeah we have it lucky.[/QUOTE]So I am like 10% of Thanos in strength?

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2446300]French doctors are not so sure about recovering giving immunity, when virus not only attack lungs, but also sometimes blood. I don't think world know much about this unknown virus which can mutate, but would be happy if you were right, because world will already have many deaths and big economic crisis.[/QUOTE]OMS also say really not sure for immunity from recovering. Wait and see after confined finished. 11 May in France with about only 5% who were infected, Germany with now 5500 deaths are preparing second wave. US with 55 000 deaths, go to beaches.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2446280]It is just that certain part of Europe and USA did not have good medical system enough and also let the situation destroy their medical system, so they could not treat patients with heavy symptoms in hospitals without enough medicines and medical equipment like life supporting system, artificial lung to the extent doctors had to decide who they give these machines too.

If it is in stage of mild symptom within 6 weeks of infections, Avigan can fix you unless you don't have diabetes or cancer or some heavy diseases.

Death rates could have been controlled where as infection rate with this disease is very hard to control as it is easily infected.

In big part, it is typical western ignorance thinking they know it all from the past, even with mask they did not listen till recently.[/QUOTE]If you are not obese, nor diabetic, nor cancer, nor big disease, then you don't have so big risk about virus, so your avigan from Fuiji is useless for me, if you are not weak health, better you recover on your own. When I'm not very sick, I don't take medicine. No proof in France chloroquine really cure virus. I'm sure France and US are not lower medical level than Japan or Germany, but virus is more mirror of society than about medical level. For example: in France, many people kiss people with who they work when they arrive, millions of people can't afford healthcare in US, when Asians are used to masks since before virus. Behavior made the difference versus this virus, much more than medical level. In France, no one died because no free bed, but I thank Germany, Switzerland, Luxemburg and Austria to help us for their 181 beds when a bit improving cases were moved to these countries, to always have free beds for worst cases. Other example: I don't think India or Africa have high medical level and for sure lower than US, France, Spain and Italy, but, and I'm really happy for them when they are so poor and really don't need this crisis, virus seem to prefer to spread when around 10 degrees, not where very cold or very warm, so I'm happy they don't have too many deaths at the moment. I think whole world have to learn from this virus, and yes, France have to be more independent for our health safety, our biggest mistake, when we have best medical level, but so many couldn't be saved, even treated in hospitals with best equipment. Our medical staff was under pressure, now better, but never exploded.

[QUOTE=BigBuddy69;2446419]Or to have your lungs fucked up for the rest of your life?[/QUOTE]That's correct, I am experiencing this particular problem, I hope it gets better with the right treatment.

It is important not to undervalue the consequences of the virus.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2446471]OMS also say really not sure for immunity from recovering. Wait and see after confined finished. 11 May in France with about only 5% who were infected, Germany with now 5500 deaths are preparing second wave. US with 55 000 deaths, go to beaches.[/QUOTE]Chinese start to tell what really happened, when they are scared about their politics who hide them the truth, new figure they tell: at least 25.000 deaths only for Wuhan. Far from politics figures below 4000.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2446483]If you are not obese, nor diabetic, nor cancer, nor big disease, then you don't have so big risk about virus, so your avigan from Fuiji is useless for me, if you are not weak health, better you recover on your own. When I'm not very sick, I don't take medicine. No proof in France chloroquine really cure virus. I'm sure France and US are not lower medical level than Japan or Germany, but virus is more mirror of society than about medical level. For example: in France, many people kiss people with who they work when they arrive, millions of people can't afford healthcare in US, when Asians are used to masks since before virus. Behavior made the difference versus this virus, much more than medical level. In France, no one died because no free bed, but I thank Germany, Switzerland, Luxemburg and Austria to help us for their 181 beds when a bit improving cases were moved to these countries, to always have free beds for worst cases. Other example: I don't think India or Africa have high medical level and for sure lower than US, France, Spain and Italy, but, and I'm really happy for them when they are so poor and really don't need this crisis, virus seem to prefer to spread when around 10 degrees, not where very cold or very warm, so I'm happy they don't have too many deaths at the moment. I think whole world have to learn from this virus, and yes, France have to be more independent for our health safety, our biggest mistake, when we have best medical level, but so many couldn't be saved, even treated in hospitals with best equipment. Our medical staff was under pressure, now better, but never exploded.[/QUOTE]It is about Hygiene level. Asia is not clean beside Singapore and Japn and little bit south Korea.

Other thing is that not so much in singapoer and south Korea, but in case of Japan, when you enter home, we take our shoes off at the door, this helped a bit and also our Japanese bath culture, we take bath every single day, so it may help a bit too.

Avigan works within six weeks of infections. Germany is using it now and so as some other nations, and to be honest I imagine France too, I cannot be bother to check. I don't care about corona too much, it is not so big here yet, but it can get worst as we still has 20 % free bed in hospital, but if it get lower and heavy symptom get higher, we can destroy medical care system too, but Avigan is working, so usually it does not go to heavy symptom then death. However, it is not vaccines for this, it is for birdflu originally.

As for your comments about cancers, diabetes, fat people etc. It is minority not all people have that, in France it is over 20000 people dead. This is war level number of people and I don't think it is just because they were all cancer, diabetes or fat etc. It is destruction of medical system. France has same level of medical system as Japan, USA or Germany or similar nations, so 20000 death is because hospital was over loaded with patients, some who did not need to come to hospital. It is rather governments fault as they should have restricted who comes to hospitals and who get tested based on symptom to control the visitors of hospitals.

But hey, we got summer coming, so let see if weather fix it temporary or not.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2446447]Well that Chinese roulette definitely caught up with Spain, Italy and France, most highest death rate nations. It is war level death for these 3 nations.[/QUOTE]But not for everybody. I am really liking the death graphs for Sweden, Switzerland and Swaziland right now. If they can get this under control, they will set an example to the whole world.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2446618]But not for everybody. I am really liking the death graphs for Sweden, Switzerland and Swaziland right now. If they can get this under control, they will set an example to the whole world.[/QUOTE]It is bit too late for that, those nations who focused on death rate as I have been saying from beginning with preferably balanced lock down and not no lock down or total lock down (which did not work due to crazy death rates in those nations who did), did better at saving lives.

Plus it is to do with medical quality, Avigan works for mild symptom, within first 6 weeks since infection, but Japan cannot produce mega amount in just few weeks, but first 5 million pill are to be dispatch to 20 nations in may and it is free, so people in those 20 nations has access to it and it should be cheap as Japan is giving it for free. Our FKK land Germany is using Avigan as well, so may hope some tutes we knows life if they are infected. This is originally made for bird flu and side effect avoidance is for pregnant women. It can be used for old people etc.

There also is another medicine made by USA which is working, but it is strong one which is originally for Ebola, so I don't know the effect on body. But that is also working on mild symptom.

However, in case like these, beside medicine, usually nations do what they believe is best and they won't listen till things are too late. Even with mask, they did not listen saying it did not work based on usual western narrow minded stereo type that are still 50 years ago, mask is not so much to prevent you from getting infected, but it is more for giving virus to other people, it stop that to great extent.

Additionally, not all nations can produce medical equipment, so those nations who cannot produce their own medical equipment like life supporting system, artificial lungs etc. Had to deal with limited equipment to extent where doctors had to choose who get those equipment or those who should be left to die.

European nations which had high death rates are not industrial top nations, so they cannot produce these equipment as well. Only few can like Germany and UK, even though Dyson was kicked out by UK government after producing them due to violation of contract LOL. But Dyson will sell it abroad apparently.

Like I said from beginning, focus on controlling death rate as controlling infections are too hard beside locking people to some extent.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2446212]............I fear who just want to vaccinate us with some hybrid virus that will make us half sick and ruin our immune systems for the rest of our lives. So funk that!.............[/QUOTE]The female English scientist who was the first to test their vaccine died two days later. Four others who allowed themselves to be administered the vaccine are very sick.

[QUOTE=Turgid;2446707]The female English scientist who was the first to test their vaccine died two days later. Four others who allowed themselves to be administered the vaccine are very sick.[/QUOTE]Please ignore this, fake news and lies.

She is alive and well.

Such rubbish written on this and other sites about Covid-19.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2446618]But not for everybody. I am really liking the death graphs for Sweden, Switzerland and Swaziland right now. If they can get this under control, they will set an example to the whole world.[/QUOTE][URL]https://www.westernjournal.com/sweden-official-coronavirus-strategy-keeping-country-open-seems-working/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=PostTopSharingButtons&utm_campaign=websitesharingbuttons[/URL]

[QUOTE=Turgid;2446707]The female English scientist who was the first to test their vaccine died two days later. Four others who allowed themselves to be administered the vaccine are very sick.[/QUOTE]This post is so wrong! You have been reading fake news, post a link if you have reason to justify this.

[URL]https://fullfact.org/online/elisa-granato-fake/[/URL] Shows the newsfeed from BBC.

[QUOTE=Downandup;2446716]This post is so wrong! You have been reading fake news, post a link if you have reason to justify this.

[URL]https://fullfact.org/online/elisa-granato-fake/[/URL] Shows the newsfeed from BBC.[/QUOTE]You beat me to it! The Ruskies are going to have another field day this fall. Sigh!

[URL]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/26/uk-coronavirus-vaccine-trial-subject-doing-fine-online-death-rumours-elisa-granato[/URL]

20 % of hospital personnel in Stockholm immune.

And this was among people who had "protected" outfit.

[QUOTE=Arnold15;2446749]20 % of hospital personnel in Stockholm immune.

And this was among people who had "protected" outfit.[/QUOTE]Quite interesting, so was there enough PPE (Personal Protective Equipment) in the Swedish medical system? I know in the UK there was a shortage. But they think 20% of all of New York city has had it as well, so the number is not that different even given the different lockdown regimes. I know we are only refering to hospital personnel in Stockholm and not the general population.

But this number can either be much higher than that of the general population, because of exposure or lower since they are taking greater precautions.

However of course New York is a raging epicenter of this pandemic and it is also much more densely populated than Stockholm is.

By immune you are referring to who has tested positive for antibodies, right? I have not read much about this, but a lot of reports seem to indicate that the tests for antibodies are not that reliable, so I hope the actual number is higher so that we do reach herd immunity levels.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2446065]It is no more sparse than Texas.

Sweden has achieved similar results to other European countries -- but without any lockdown at all. Its strategy is herd immunity. If this works, then in a couple of weeks time Sweden will enjoy results considerable better than everyone else. Then the other countries will quietly abandon the concept of lockdown and let the economy run free again.

Inshallah!

By the way this is a great resource to see which countries are in lockdown and which are not:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-52103747[/QUOTE]Respectfully disagree; Sweden has higher death rate in Europe compared to population. Maybe it was a price worth paying, that's another debate.

[QUOTE=Arnold15;2446129]The open strategy works very good here in Sweden.

Estimations show that at least 1/3 of population in Stockholm is immune now. Authorities expect that 50 percent will be immune within one month.

There will probably be a second BIG wave of Corona in autumn. Then lock-down countries are unprotected.

Sweden will be protected by heard immunity.[/QUOTE]Again wrong: Just check what is the percentage of the total population, even in Sweden, has been infected? Below 20 %, when you need 70% for decent "herd immunity" And whether being previously infected does protect is currently not proven. Good luck to my Swedish friends.

[QUOTE=Arnold15;2446188]Yes, catching and recovering = immune.

Definitely.

WHO and China spread fake news that there is no immunity.

But there is a Hidden Agenda.

China WANTS the U.S. and Europe to lock-down, so China can gain economic advantages.

New BIG immunity test undertaken in Stockholm will be presented in news tomorrow.

I will then link.

Provisonal estimates show "considerably higher immunity" than Chinese tests (2-3 % immune = fake).[/QUOTE]Please give us links to your sources. About guaranteed immunity? You are surely working in a top virology lab, I guess.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2446574]It is about Hygiene level. Asia is not clean beside Singapore and Japn and little bit south Korea.

. It is minority not all people have that, in France it is over 20000 people dead. This is war level number of people and I don't think it is just because they were all cancer, diabetes or fat etc. It is destruction of medical system. France has same level of medical system as Japan, USA or Germany or similar nations, so 20000 death is because hospital was over loaded with patients, some who did not need to come to hospital. It is rather governments fault as they should have restricted who comes to hospitals and who get tested based on symptom to control the visitors of hospitals.

But hey, we got summer coming, so let see if weather fix it temporary or not.[/QUOTE]Absurd comments. Obvioulsy you don't know what "war" levels means. 20000 deaths is I just 5000 more than same period in 2018. So, yes, there was an increase, byt "war level" please.

And is it just fake new that some hospitals in Tokyo are overwhelmed. From a good friend living there since 40 years.

As I said before, I greatly admire Japan, loves (most) Japanese, but you are not one of them, you are just a representative of the small minority who believe they are greater than any other race / human being. GAmbatte Nihon!

[QUOTE=MrHo;2446638]It is bit too late for that, those nations who focused on death rate as I have been saying from beginning with preferably balanced lock down and not no lock down or total lock down (which did not work due to crazy death rates in those nations who did), did better at saving lives.

Plus it is to do with medical quality, Avigan works for mild symptom, within first 6 weeks since infection, but Japan cannot produce mega amount in just few weeks, but first 5 million pill are to be dispatch to 20 nations in may and it is free, so people in those 20 nations has access to it and it should be cheap as Japan is giving it for free. Our FKK land Germany is using Avigan as well, so may hope some tutes we knows life if they are infected. This is originally made for bird flu and side effect avoidance is for pregnant women. It can be used for old people etc.

There also is another medicine made by USA which is working, but it is strong one which is originally for Ebola, so I don't know the effect on body. But that is also working on mild symptom.

However, in case like these, beside medicine, usually nations do what they believe is best and they won't listen till things are too late. Even with mask, they did not listen saying it did not work based on usual western narrow minded stereo type that are still 50 years ago, mask is not so much to prevent you from getting infected, but it is more for giving virus to other people, it stop that to great extent.

Additionally, not all nations can produce medical equipment, so those nations who cannot produce their own medical equipment like life supporting system, artificial lungs etc. Had to deal with limited equipment to extent where doctors had to choose who get those equipment or those who should be left to die..[/QUOTE]Please give us a link to the clinical tral proving that Avigan works. For the record 99.5% of all people inflected recover without any treatment. So does your miracle drug increase to, what, 99.9%.

[QUOTE=Canary;2446713]Please ignore this, fake news and lies.

She is alive and well.

Such rubbish written on this and other sites about Covid-19.[/QUOTE]Sadly true. Would be laughable if not so sad.

[QUOTE=Arnold15;2446749]20 % of hospital personnel in Stockholm immune.

And this was among people who had "protected" outfit.[/QUOTE]20% in people exposed 1000 times more to the virus that you and me.

[QUOTE=TheCane;2446720]You beat me to it! The Ruskies are going to have another field day this fall. Sigh!

[URL]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/26/uk-coronavirus-vaccine-trial-subject-doing-fine-online-death-rumours-elisa-granato[/URL][/QUOTE]I've been searching through my fb page to determine which media outlet I got that news item from without success. They must have removed it. A pity as I would like to unfollow whichever it was.

[QUOTE=Dreams;2446768]20% in people exposed 1000 times more to the virus that you and me.[/QUOTE]Well done, Dreams!

I really praise your effort to review and correct this and several other arbitrary and incorrect statements written on this subject by fellow forum members.

I agree with all yours, which are based on facts and valid sources.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2446638]It is bit too late for that, those nations who focused on death rate as I have been saying from beginning with preferably balanced lock down and not no lock down or total lock down (which did not work due to crazy death rates in those nations who did), did better at saving lives.

Plus it is to do with medical quality, Avigan works for mild symptom, within first 6 weeks since infection, but Japan cannot produce mega amount in just few weeks, but first 5 million pill are to be dispatch to 20 nations in may and it is free, so people in those 20 nations has access to it and it should be cheap as Japan is giving it for free. Our FKK land Germany is using Avigan as well, so may hope some tutes we knows life if they are infected. This is originally made for bird flu and side effect avoidance is for pregnant women. It can be used for old people etc.

There also is another medicine made by USA which is working, but it is strong one which is originally for Ebola, so I don't know the effect on body. But that is also working on mild symptom.

However, in case like these, beside medicine, usually nations do what they believe is best and they won't listen till things are too late. Even with mask, they did not listen saying it did not work based on usual western narrow minded stereo type that are still 50 years ago, mask is not so much to prevent you from getting infected, but it is more for giving virus to other people, it stop that to great extent..[/QUOTE]Unfortunately, UK may be above 40.000 deaths, France now above 30.000, with only 6% infected = 0,8 % death rate, with 80% older than 70. US don't really know about millions without insurance and illegals, but poverty kill. I confirm figures are not so much about medical power and potential, but much more about how we live, really mirror for society. Asians already experienced and are used to masks, but we will discover more reliable figures in China. Not so sure recovering make immunity for some, but we will judge in future.

[QUOTE=Dreams;2446768]20% in people exposed 1000 times more to the virus that you and me.[/QUOTE]That is what I think as well, in that case the optimistic projections of herd immunity by having this relaxed lockdown policy did not come to fruition. If you actually look at [URL]https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/[/URL] and then sort by deaths per 1 M population, the death rate in Sweden is actually not low relatively speaking, it is higher in some European countries but in most of these cases the countries were far more densely populated or affected on a larger scale much earlier on when the severity of the pandemic was not sufficiently recognized.

I actually hope that most estimates of the number of people with antibodies are undercounts since the testing for antibodies does not seem sufficiently reliable, I do hope it is an undercount not an over estimate.

However this death toll has not resulted in higher levels of immunity based upon just this figure alone, maybe there is more to this than the figure above.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2446574]It is about Hygiene level. Asia is not clean beside Singapore and Japn and little bit south Korea.

Other thing is that not so much in singapoer and south Korea, but in case of Japan, when you enter home, we take our shoes off at the door, this helped a bit and also our Japanese bath culture, we take bath every single day, so it may help a bit too.

Avigan works within six weeks of infections. Germany is using it now and so as some other nations, and to be honest I imagine France too, I cannot be bother to check. I don't care about corona too much, it is not so big here yet, but it can get worst as we still has 20 % free bed in hospital, but if it get lower and heavy symptom get higher, we can destroy medical care system too, but Avigan is working, so usually it does not go to heavy symptom then death. However, it is not vaccines for this, it is for birdflu originally.

As for your comments about cancers, diabetes, fat people etc. It is minority not all people have that, in France it is over 20000 people dead. This is war level number of people and I don't think it is just because they were all cancer, diabetes or fat etc. It is destruction of medical system. France has same level of medical system as Japan, USA or Germany or similar nations, so 20000 death is because hospital was over loaded with patients, some who did not need to come to hospital. It is rather governments fault as they should have restricted who comes to hospitals and who get tested based on symptom to control the visitors of hospitals.

But hey, we got summer coming, so let see if weather fix it temporary or not.[/QUOTE]Arithmetic: only about 6% infected in France = 4 millions, can become a problem after confined on 11 May, about 30.000 deaths unfortunately = 0,8 % death rate. 80 % older than 70 and 67% of others had disease making weak to virus, so around 2000 deaths with no reason known before virus. Some make violent reaction under virus. Unfortunately, like in US or UK, we are discovering more and more obese and diabetic in France, under MacDo and Cola, weak versus virus. France never missed free beds, moving improving cases to make free for worst cases. 181 were moved out of France. No proof chloroquine is efficient versus virus, I don't hear about avigan in France, but most of deaths were not so healthy before virus. I think being healthy is best medicine versus virus, even more efficient than mask. Masks are more not to infect others. Many were infected and didn't even know about.

[QUOTE=Dreams;2446765]Absurd comments. Obvioulsy you don't know what "war" levels means. 20000 deaths is I just 5000 more than same period in 2018. So, yes, there was an increase, byt "war level" please.

And is it just fake new that some hospitals in Tokyo are overwhelmed. From a good friend living there since 40 years.

As I said before, I greatly admire Japan, loves (most) Japanese, but you are not one of them, you are just a representative of the small minority who believe they are greater than any other race / human being. GAmbatte Nihon![/QUOTE]I think smoking kill about 70/000 per year in France. I was surprised nicotine could protect versus virus which not develop so fast for smokers.

[QUOTE=Dreams;2446760]Again wrong: Just check what is the percentage of the total population, even in Sweden, has been infected? Below 20 %, when you need 70% for decent "herd immunity" And whether being previously infected does protect is currently not proven. Good luck to my Swedish friends.[/QUOTE]It can't be easy living life in fear. I feel sorry for the rest of you that are imprisoned in your own homes thanks to a failed lockdown by politicians that are afraid to lose the next election.

[QUOTE=DeltaIndigo;2446821]That is what I think as well, in that case the optimistic projections of herd immunity by having this relaxed lockdown policy did not come to fruition. If you actually look at [URL]https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/[/URL] and then sort by deaths per 1 M population, the death rate in Sweden is actually not low relatively speaking, it is higher in some European countries but in most of these cases the countries were far more densely populated or affected on a larger scale much earlier on when the severity of the pandemic was not sufficiently recognized.

I actually hope that most estimates of the number of people with antibodies are undercounts since the testing for antibodies does not seem sufficiently reliable, I do hope it is an undercount not an over estimate.

However this death toll has not resulted in higher levels of immunity based upon just this figure alone, maybe there is more to this than the figure above.[/QUOTE]Almost all of Western Europe is worse off than Sweden comparing deaths per million. Belgium, San Marino, Andorra, Spain, Italy, France, UK, Netherlands. Ireland and Switzerland are barely better off but paid a big price and it honestly wasn't worth it.

Sweden have counted more deaths outside of hospitals than many other countries. The numbers you are comparing aren't accurate. Which means that you're drawing false conclusions.

In Sweden more people are worried about the economy and we are not willing to sacrifice our economy and quality of life to do a lockdown that haven't produced any good results in other countries.

The countries that have had a lockdown have to open back up, and that's a real challenge!

I honestly don't understand the obsession comparing different countries, especially considering that it's not over yet and there are more factors to take into consideration than the number of deaths. The economy for example.

To wait for a vaccine is rather naive. Throughout human history the weak ones have died, nowadays people want to play God and can't accept the death of people over 70 and other weak humans.

Damn it, did the World go this mad during the HK flu?

[QUOTE=Dreams;2446759]Respectfully disagree; Sweden has higher death rate in Europe compared to population. Maybe it was a price worth paying, that's another debate.[/QUOTE]Sweden has a lower death rate than many other countries countries in Europe: Belgium, San Marino, Andorra, France, Italy, Spain, Netherlands and the UK. Switzerland and Ireland are barely better off.

[QUOTE=DeltaIndigo;2446821]If you actually look at [URL]https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/[/URL] and then sort by deaths per 1 M population, the death rate in Sweden is actually not low relatively speaking, it is higher in some European countries but in most of these cases the countries were far more densely populated or affected on a larger scale much earlier on when the severity of the pandemic was not sufficiently recognized.[/QUOTE]In addition to your suggestion to sort by deaths per million, I also sorted by infections per million. Despite the relaxed policy, Sweden's infections per million is lower than most of the larger countries in Western Europe. It could be that Swedish people are just more disciplined when it comes to isolating themselves, despite businesses being open. California is on lockdown, but just this past weekend there were huge crowds at Newport Beach. But as you said, Sweden is densely populated, relatively remote, and was affected later.

[QUOTE=ShooBree;2446857]Almost all of Western Europe is worse off than Sweden comparing deaths per million. Belgium, San Marino, Andorra, Spain, Italy, France, UK, Netherlands. Ireland and Switzerland are barely better off but paid a big price and it honestly wasn't worth it.

Sweden have counted more deaths outside of hospitals than many other countries. The numbers you are comparing aren't accurate. Which means that you're drawing false conclusions.

In Sweden more people are worried about the economy and we are not willing to sacrifice our economy and quality of life to do a lockdown that haven't produced any good results in other countries.

The countries that have had a lockdown have to open back up, and that's a real challenge!

I honestly don't understand the obsession comparing different countries, especially considering that it's not over yet and there are more factors to take into consideration than the number of deaths. The economy for example.

To wait for a vaccine is rather naive. Throughout human history the weak ones have died, nowadays people want to play God and can't accept the death of people over 70 and other weak humans.

Damn it, did the World go this mad during the HK flu?[/QUOTE]I posted the link, just check the figures yourself, sort by deaths per million. Look at Germany, Austria, Switzerland is lower but lets take a country with a similar known infection count and a strict lockdown regime, Czechia, it has a dramatically lower death rate.

All you have to do is sort by that column on the graph, most of Western Europe has a lower mortality rate per population which is what you would expect with a more relaxed lockdown regime.

If herd immunity is actually happening more quickly because of this, there would be a plausible argument for this. But this hasn't been established yet.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2446811]Unfortunately, UK may be above 40.000 deaths, France now above 30.000, with only 6% infected = 0,8 % death rate, with 80% older than 70. US don't really know about millions without insurance and illegals, but poverty kill. I confirm figures are not so much about medical power and potential, but much more about how we live, really mirror for society. Asians already experienced and are used to masks, but we will discover more reliable figures in China. Not so sure recovering make immunity for some, but we will judge in future.[/QUOTE]As I mentioned former communist states like China, Russia or current communist state like north Korea cannot be trusted, in political arena in slung term, these nations are known as red team and they often openly lie even in foreign affairs field.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2446828]Arithmetic: only about 6% infected in France = 4 millions, can become a problem after confined on 11 May, about 30.000 deaths unfortunately = 0,8 % death rate. 80 % older than 70 and 67% of others had disease making weak to virus, so around 2000 deaths with no reason known before virus. Some make violent reaction under virus. Unfortunately, like in US or UK, we are discovering more and more obese and diabetic in France, under MacDo and Cola, weak versus virus. France never missed free beds, moving improving cases to make free for worst cases. 181 were moved out of France. No proof chloroquine is efficient versus virus, I don't hear about avigan in France, but most of deaths were not so healthy before virus. I think being healthy is best medicine versus virus, even more efficient than mask. Masks are more not to infect others. Many were infected and didn't even know about.[/QUOTE]Well French food are pretty creamy and rich in butter and yeah maybe on top of that arrival of American food has helped to make people diabetics, but just death numbers are crazy, it is war level death rate.

There also is speculation, like in Japan, when we are born, it is mandatory to take BCG vaccines by force, so there is speculation that it has something to do with not making condition worst if you are infected with corona virus.

Bottom line is nobody knows, and we have avigan and one more medicine till vaccines arrives in about 1.5 years they say, and both medicines at least avigan is in mass production right now and also hopefully weather in summer may calm corona down a bit, so fingers cross and stay home.

Whatta strange era we get to experience.

[QUOTE=Dreams;2446765]Absurd comments. Obvioulsy you don't know what "war" levels means. 20000 deaths is I just 5000 more than same period in 2018. So, yes, there was an increase, byt "war level" please.

And is it just fake new that some hospitals in Tokyo are overwhelmed. From a good friend living there since 40 years.

As I said before, I greatly admire Japan, loves (most) Japanese, but you are not one of them, you are just a representative of the small minority who believe they are greater than any other race / human being. GAmbatte Nihon![/QUOTE]Learn to read carefully LOL. Hospitals in Japan are not over loaded, we still have about 20 % bed kept free for second wave of pandemic, we are very prepared race. I was referring to hospitals in some western nations being over whelmed and their health care system no longer functioning due to not enough equipment. Hospitals in Japan are fine because we controlled people allowed to be admitted to hospitals to protect medical care system and also first step of aid for mild symptom here is immune system and lock down in house or hotel, then if lung begin to show the slight danger then we use avigan, which seems to work within 6 weeks.

As for Avigan, you research yourself, I cannot be bother to educate you, but for instance Germany is using it as their choice of medicine, it is just that we are producing it for world now, it takes sometime, and first dispatch is in May as I mentioned for free, and it is to selected 20 nations Germany included. You are very white centric, Japan has one of leading medical knowledge, know how, track record, companies and related in world, so if you or your loved ones get infected, I recommend Avigan if you are not pregnant, it is on the way, but it is not cure, it is to prevent you from getting worst and it is working here. But do what you want, Japan is taking international responsibility as we have since day one of this pandemic which we had before west because China is right next to Japan.

[QUOTE=DeltaIndigo;2446874]I posted the link, just check the figures yourself, sort by deaths per million. Look at Germany, Austria, Switzerland is lower but lets take a country with a similar known infection count and a strict lockdown regime, Czechia, it has a dramatically lower death rate.

All you have to do is sort by that column on the graph, most of Western Europe has a lower mortality rate per population which is what you would expect with a more relaxed lockdown regime.

If herd immunity is actually happening more quickly because of this, there would be a plausible argument for this. But this hasn't been established yet.[/QUOTE]Mortality rate per population is actually more important than just death rate, but death rates in Europe are war level numbers as if they did not care enough if these people die or did not take it seriously or not organized enough, which resulted in such war level death rates.

[QUOTE=Dreams;2446765]Absurd comments. Obvioulsy you don't know what "war" levels means. 20000 deaths is I just 5000 more than same period in 2018. So, yes, there was an increase, byt "war level" please.

And is it just fake new that some hospitals in Tokyo are overwhelmed. From a good friend living there since 40 years.

As I said before, I greatly admire Japan, loves (most) Japanese, but you are not one of them, you are just a representative of the small minority who believe they are greater than any other race / human being. GAmbatte Nihon![/QUOTE]If You write about France, Macron used word war when confined was decided. A German politics answered it was not war because nobody kill others. But killer virus. When we know Chinese figures are not reliable, but Chinese start to tell what they saw, and they were not informed about what really happened, new figures now about 25000 deaths only for Wuhan. But in any country, figures at the moment are only deaths known from healthcare, not all those who died at home, will need time to know for them. For example in France, a 92 yo woman with weak health caught virus, her doctor decided not to send her to hospital, because he knew she couldn't not resist, he thought it was better to let her die at home in her bed. Many who arrived in hospitals were too weak to be saved, lungs were killed. In US, so many with no insurance, so many lost job and insurance, so many illegals, who won't go to healthcare, so I trust much more US than Asia, but how could they really know how many deaths? Future will tell for Asian, not only Chinese, figures, when world will reopen, I don't know when, but for sure before Olympics to come. When small NL and Sweden decided not to kill their economy, I don't know for them, but I'm afraid many will die or fall in poverty from economic crisis where we are falling from no tourism, even not in Amsterdam for coffee shops or Stockholm, no transport, Air France need billions from France, KLN need from NL, Lufthansa need from Germany, I think US help US airlines for about 50 billions USD, no car sold, even no Volvo, construction nearly stopped. Unemployment growing, poverty growing, this will also kill in future, maybe more than virus.

Well, I just thought this was interesting:

[URL]http://republicbroadcasting.org/news/vimeo-bans-documentary-exposing-big-pharmas-influence-within-the-world-health-organization/[/URL]

I do not think covid 19 is harmless. But I know the vaccine will be worse.

[QUOTE=ShooBree;2446857]Almost all of Western Europe is worse off than Sweden comparing deaths per million. Belgium, San Marino, Andorra, Spain, Italy, France, UK, Netherlands. Ireland and Switzerland are barely better off but paid a big price and it honestly wasn't worth it.

Sweden have counted more deaths outside of hospitals than many other countries. The numbers you are comparing aren't accurate. Which means that you're drawing false conclusions.

In Sweden more people are worried about the economy and we are not willing to sacrifice our economy and quality of life to do a lockdown that haven't produced any good results in other countries.

The countries that have had a lockdown have to open back up, and that's a real challenge!

I honestly don't understand the obsession comparing different countries, especially considering that it's not over yet and there are more factors to take into consideration than the number of deaths. The economy for example.

To wait for a vaccine is rather naive. Throughout human history the weak ones have died, nowadays people want to play God and can't accept the death of people over 70 and other weak humans.

Damn it, did the World go this mad during the HK flu?[/QUOTE]France, Italy and Spain are the worst three for medical system when it comes to crisis management. Death rates in these nations are just unbelievable to call themselves civilized nation, it is war level death rates in those nations.

Sad, but crazy how they managed to mess up so good.

[QUOTE=Dreams;2446768]20% in people exposed 1000 times more to the virus that you and me.[/QUOTE]No.

I am much more exposed than personnel (this means All persoennel at hospital), since I travel with Metro, go in shops, and walk among people etc, without any protection at all.

It's important to know that each country is counting Coronavirus deaths using their own different methodology and at varying pace.

Look at Belgium which has the highest death rate around the world - 631 per million. But they are also being very aggressive in counting anyone who could possibly have died from Coronavirus and count everyone who died everywhere.

Compare that to the UK where it's 317 deaths per million but that only counts those who have died in hospital. It does not count those who have died of coronavirus in rest homes or in the community. Also the Office of National Statistics latest report is up to April 17 as it takes time for death certificates to be recorded. It reports that deaths are double the five year average. So not all deaths that could be related to coronavirus are being counted. The real death toll in the UK could be 45,000 and still be climbing.

Then there are counties where pneumonia deaths are unusually high but there's been few deaths from coronavirus.

I'm using this link for the reporting: [URL]https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/[/URL].

[QUOTE=Downandup;2447004]It's important to know that each country is counting Coronavirus deaths using their own different methodology and at varying pace.

Look at Belgium which has the highest death rate around the world - 631 per million. But they are also being very aggressive in counting anyone who could possibly have died from Coronavirus and count everyone who died everywhere.

Compare that to the UK where it's 317 deaths per million but that only counts those who have died in hospital. It does not count those who have died of coronavirus in rest homes or in the community. Also the Office of National Statistics latest report is up to April 17 as it takes time for death certificates to be recorded. It reports that deaths are double the five year average. So not all deaths that could be related to coronavirus are being counted. The real death toll in the UK could be 45,000 and still be climbing.

Then there are counties where pneumonia deaths are unusually high but there's been few deaths from coronavirus.

I'm using this link for the reporting: [URL]https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/[/URL].[/QUOTE]This is true, statistics are tricky, and it is hard to equate them 100 percent. In your example, Belgian is an outlier in how it counts its mortality rate, I had read about this and this explains why Belgium's rate is much higher than the Netherlands. However most of the measures are broadly similar and when you see compare outliers you can notice interesting things.

This pandemic has taught us a lot, for example, the German health care system is far more effective than that of France, Italy, Spain and the UK. I am now comparing large countries, the mortality rate figures do not use the exact same methodology, but the numbers are so far apart it is very hard to deny that the Germans have handled this very well.

I like comparing like for like and not completely different countries for the reasons you quoted. In this way it is interesting to note why Belgium's figures were so high and you are right, it is not indicative of policy or its health care system. I was also interesting to compare Switzerland and Austria, Austria has handled this quite a bit better than Switzerland, which has a private health care system, you can draw your own conclusions but I have long thought that the public system in German and Austria is a lot better than the private on in Switzerland. However the private system in Switzerland seems to be a hell of a lot better than the public one in the UK.

About the different lock down regimes, Switzerland has a relatively lax one and Czechia has a very strict one and the statistics will show glaring differences. When you compare countries you do have to be careful and I have had a keen interest in Statistics for over 30 years and I try to be careful.

I am surprised by the slow progression of the disease in Japan given the population density it has, but even though I do not find our infamous Japanese's mongers explanation convincing, it does sound like a nationalist diatribe, however I think he has a point that social distancing is a cultural norm anyhow in Japan and that is what is keeping the numbers down. For sure their statistics might not be comparable, but the discrepancies are too large.

But if you do not compare countries, then how could you ever infer the difference in outcomes from different policies?

[QUOTE=ShooBree;2446857].....................Damn it, did the World go this mad during the HK flu?[/QUOTE]The Hong Kong flu killed over one million people world wide. It struck in two waves with the second wave being worse than the first. It first struck in 1968 and finally completely subsided in 1972. I remember it well I was a teenager back then. I remember there being a lot of talk about it but it was no big deal. Within two weeks of its emergence in July in Hong Kong, some 500,000 cases of illness had been reported. The summer Olympics was held in Mexico in October,1968. Woodstock (crowd of over 400,000), which I wanted to attend was in 1969 but my parents wanted me to come with the family on Caribbean cruise which we did in the summer of that year.

I think the difference between back then and now is firstly, there are many more people in the world today and international travel is greater now so that disease spread is easier and more rapid. Furthermore the world is much more politicized now and leaders retaining their position in government is highly dependent on containing the virus within their respective countries. Sweden's approach is worth study and reminiscent of 1968-70; what is interesting is that its death rate via covid 19 is less than most other European countries with severe lockdowns.

Singapore University of Technology and Design has a set of predictions on when coronavirus might end worldwide and for many counties.

[URL]https://ddi.sutd.edu.sg/when-will-covid-19-end[/URL]

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2446831]I think smoking kill about 70/000 per year in France. I was surprised nicotine could protect versus virus which not develop so fast for smokers.[/QUOTE]Nicotine may protect smokers against the risk to catch it. One does not know yet really how good and efficient is this protection, and how much you need to have smoked.

But what is 100% sure is that once a smoker gets it, his risks of having severe pneumonia and death are much higher. Based on hose facts, everyone can choose and decide what to do or not to do.

[QUOTE=ShooBree;2446849]It can't be easy living life in fear. I feel sorry for the rest of you that are imprisoned in your own homes thanks to a failed lockdown by politicians that are afraid to lose the next election.[/QUOTE]Not sure how this relates to my post.

But if you had been in Bergamo end of March you may have changed your mind.

Anyway, I have worked in Sweden many years, and know well the Swedish mentality, very friendly, I liked my time there, but terribly arrogant, they always know better. I was there when Olof Palme was assassinated. They always thought that this kind of things could never happen in their wonderful free society. And could only happen in the uncivilized parts of the world I. E south of Malmoe. Same about them teaching us, those guys living near the Mediterranean, how we should treat better our North Africans immigrants. Now look at the mess they are in with their own, Malmoe is a no-go area.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2446904]Learn to read carefully LOL. Hospitals in Japan are not over loaded, we still have about 20 % bed kept free for second wave of pandemic, we are very prepared race. I was referring to hospitals in some western nations being over whelmed and their health care system no longer functioning due to not enough equipment. Hospitals in Japan are fine because we controlled people allowed to be admitted to hospitals to protect medical care system and also first step of aid for mild symptom here is immune system and lock down in house or hotel, then if lung begin to show the slight danger then we use avigan, which seems to work within 6 weeks.

As for Avigan, you research yourself, I cannot be bother to educate you, but for instance Germany is using it as their choice of medicine, it is just that we are producing it for world now, it takes sometime, and first dispatch is in May as I mentioned for free, and it is to selected 20 nations Germany included. You are very white centric, Japan has one of leading medical knowledge, know how, track record, companies and related in world, so if you or your loved ones get infected, I recommend Avigan if you are not pregnant, it is on the way, but it is not cure, it is to prevent you from getting worst and it is working here. But do what you want, Japan is taking international responsibility as we have since day one of this pandemic which we had before west because China is right next to Japan.[/QUOTE]Its not by repeating endlessly the same lies that it make them true.

Still waiting for the scientific links proving efficacy of Avigan, in which patients (young, old, mild, severe).

[QUOTE=MrHo;2446906]Mortality rate per population is actually more important than just death rate, but death rates in Europe are war level numbers as if they did not care enough if these people die or did not take it seriously or not organized enough, which resulted in such war level death rates.[/QUOTE]Please define "war levels".

Vietnam war? 50000.

Holocaust? 6.000.000.

First WW: 10 Millions.

Japanese invasion of China? (200000 Chinese casualties just in Shanghai).

[QUOTE=Pistons;2446971]But I know the vaccine will be worse.[/QUOTE]Blessed those who know.

It will be your human right to refuse the vaccine. But it will other's right to stop you travelling if you are not vaccinated. I, for sure would refuse to deal with people like you, and I believe I will be part of a huge majority. And last, of course, as an ICU doctor, I would refuse to treat you, should you come to my unit with respiratory distress.

[QUOTE=Arnold15;2447002]No.

I am much more exposed than personnel (this means All persoennel at hospital), since I travel with Metro, go in shops, and walk among people etc, without any protection at all.[/QUOTE]Did you ever heard about something called "viral charge"? The risk of contamination is proportional to the amount of virus excreted. People who go to hospital are sick, by definition and excrete far more viruses that the 5-10 % who maybe infected in the subway.

[QUOTE=Downandup;2447014]Singapore University of Technology and Design has a set of predictions on when coronavirus might end worldwide and for many counties.

[URL]https://ddi.sutd.edu.sg/when-will-covid-19-end[/URL][/QUOTE]Interesting. I mostly agree with it, the only caveat is that all those models are based on the "current " situation staying the same all along. If something change, then it's wrong. For instance, at the beginning of the VIH epidemic, projections were for 8 billions people to die by 2000. But of course, with prevention and treatment being implemented / found, that did not really happen.

[QUOTE=Dreams;2447016]Nicotine may protect smokers against the risk to catch it.[/QUOTE]I seriously doubt that to be true.

I had someone tell me the other day that a 20 year old girl died from coronavirus, so the coronavirus is dangerous for young people as well. I asked "did she have any health problems prior to that"? They replied no, no health problems, she was completely healthy.

Later I found out the girl had bad asthma all her life.

My guess is this smoker "study" is also not giving all the details.

[QUOTE=DeltaIndigo;2447008]This is true, statistics are tricky, and it is hard to equate them 100 percent. In your example, Belgian is an outlier in how it counts its mortality rate, I had read about this and this explains why Belgium's rate is much higher than the Netherlands. However most of the measures are broadly similar and when you see compare outliers you can notice interesting things.

This pandemic has taught us a lot, for example, the German health care system is far more effective than that of France, Italy, Spain and the UK. I am now comparing large countries, the mortality rate figures do not use the exact same methodology, but the numbers are so far apart it is very hard to deny that the Germans have handled this very well.

I like comparing like for like and not completely different countries for the reasons you quoted. In this way it is interesting to note why Belgium's figures were so high and you are right, it is not indicative of policy or its health care system. I was also interesting to compare Switzerland and Austria, Austria has handled this quite a bit better than Switzerland, which has a private health care system, you can draw your own conclusions but I have long thought that the public system in German and Austria is a lot better than the private on in Switzerland. However the private system in Switzerland seems to be a hell of a lot better than the public one in the UK.[/QUOTE]Yeah, the temptation to read to too much from Corona death tolls on nationalistic lines is misleading, sometimes jingoistic and just plain nonsensical. Asian nations have been used to fighting respiratory viruses for a while and took this seriously, locked down very early and prevented deaths. Taiwan, being Chinese Formosa, has had 430 cases in total -- right on China's door step. Just 6 people died, as compared to 385 in Japan -- Japan does have 5 times as many people, but still adjusted per population, Taiwan has fared much better.

Vietnam, another country in the vicinity, has had less than 300 cases and zero deaths. Vietnam has 95 million people, only 31 M less than Japan population. Our friend has a habit of dismissing countries he does not like as showing unreliable data, not believable etc, but I think it is clear that Vietnam and Taiwan have controlled it better. Some reasons are obvious. Their populations are more docile and do not question or flout government rules, lockdowns actually work as intended, infected people were forcibly detained in government facilities in Vietnam when they had the virus, their healthcare facilities were on high alert from the beginning of the outbreak and so on. Yes, the US got caught with its pants down this time but if a vaccine or cure comes, it will be American or German / English or some other Western European. I expect France to also cope well with any future virus breaks, and Italy and Spain to do much better than this one. But if corona deaths are the sole indicators of a country's healthcare system, does anyone think Vietnam has a better one than Italy? Next time you become sick, where would you rather be? Italy or Vietnam?

As for the overall tone about Japan, I pointed out once before that GDP per capita in Japan is $39.2 K, only $5 K more than Italy's and $8,000 less than German per capita GDP and $23 K less than US per capita $62.5 K (World bank -- easily seen o Google search). Our friend countered with China having large GDP only due to large population and missed the point that these are *per capita*; Yes, Japan is an important ally, and is an important country in Asia with some Western democratic values and a good counter to have against rising China. But from American pov, it is China and its strength which is a huge concern to our president, our businesses and our population these days.

[QUOTE=Downandup;2447014]Singapore University of Technology and Design has a set of predictions on when coronavirus might end worldwide and for many counties.

[URL]https://ddi.sutd.edu.sg/when-will-covid-19-end[/URL][/QUOTE]According to these projections the end of the epidemic in Germany is expected around 6th June, so on the 7th June we may be able to be hand-in-hand with our favourite girl again on our way to the room! LOL.

Rock.

[QUOTE=Dreams;2447016]Nicotine may protect smokers against the risk to catch it. One does not know yet really how good and efficient is this protection, and how much you need to have smoked.

But what is 100% sure is that once a smoker gets it, his risks of having severe pneumonia and death are much higher. Based on hose facts, everyone can choose and decide what to do or not to do.[/QUOTE]I think in USA, Trump has clamped down on the sale of nicotine patches. Maybe just with OTC sales, not sure.

[QUOTE=Dreams;2447016]Nicotine may protect smokers against the risk to catch it. One does not know yet really how good and efficient is this protection, and how much you need to have smoked.

But what is 100% sure is that once a smoker gets it, his risks of having severe pneumonia and death are much higher. Based on hose facts, everyone can choose and decide what to do or not to do.[/QUOTE]I was really surprised when heard French doctors, because for me, smoking kill, but not many smokers died from virus, I think only around 15% of deaths, when they should have bad lungs. Maybe also old don't smoke much. I think also more men than women die.

[QUOTE=Turgid;2447010]The Hong Kong flu killed over one million people world wide. It struck in two waves with the second wave being worse than the first. It first struck in 1968 and finally completely subsided in 1972. I remember it well I was a teenager back then. I remember there being a lot of talk about it but it was no big deal. Within two weeks of its emergence in July in Hong Kong, some 500,000 cases of illness had been reported. The summer Olympics was held in Mexico in October,1968. Woodstock (crowd of over 400,000), which I wanted to attend was in 1969 but my parents wanted me to come with the family on Caribbean cruise which we did in the summer of that year.

I think the difference between back then and now is firstly, there are many more people in the world today and international travel is greater now so that disease spread is easier and more rapid. Furthermore the world is much more politicized now and leaders retaining their position in government is highly dependent on containing the virus within their respective countries. Sweden's approach is worth study and reminiscent of 1968-70; what is interesting is that its death rate via covid 19 is less than most other European countries with severe lockdowns.[/QUOTE]I survived the second wave as a child. Almost wiped out my family. Affected people of all ages, children and adults. Nasty stuff.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2446884]Well French food are pretty creamy and rich in butter and yeah maybe on top of that arrival of American food has helped to make people diabetics, but just death numbers are crazy, it is war level death rate.

There also is speculation, like in Japan, when we are born, it is mandatory to take BCG vaccines by force, so there is speculation that it has something to do with not making condition worst if you are infected with corona virus.

Bottom line is nobody knows, and we have avigan and one more medicine till vaccines arrives in about 1.5 years they say, and both medicines at least avigan is in mass production right now and also hopefully weather in summer may calm corona down a bit, so fingers cross and stay home.

Whatta strange era we get to experience.[/QUOTE]Real French foods didn't change, but more and more MacDo for child, not best for their health, even gift with foods.

[QUOTE=Turgid;2447010] Sweden's approach is worth study and reminiscent of 1968-70; what is interesting is that its death rate via covid 19 is less than most other European countries with severe lockdowns.[/QUOTE]Sweden's death rate is much higher than their Nordic neighbors, which given the population profiles makes for the best comparisons.

[URL]https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/28/europe/sweden-coronavirus-lockdown-strategy-intl/index.html[/URL]

I'm not sure why there is such an abundance of Covid-19 misinformation in monger forums. But I'm ready to move on and let the ignorance flourish. Is too much work correcting it all.

Cheers gentleman and stay safe.

Based on the Singaporean data mined study and models (as of 27/4) -- which is updated daily -- the 97%, 99% and 100% end dates of the Covid19 pandemic are:

Germany: 4 May 20; 16 May 20; 6 Aug 20.

Austria: 19-April 20; 29-April 20; 13 Jun 20.

Switzerland: 28 April 20; 9 May 20; 7 July 20.

So if we are optimistic and clubs will be allowed to open once 99% of the Covid19 is over then by mid May all FKKs could be open. If we are pessimistic then mid June FKKs in Austria will open first, then in July in Switzerland and in August Germany.

Link: [URL]https://ddi.sutd.edu.sg/when-will-covid-19-end[/URL].

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2447104]Real French foods didn't change, but more and more MacDo for child, not best for their health, even gift with foods.[/QUOTE]Well French chefs contributed greatly in area of fusion food, but in very good way, there are some contemporary touch to it in positive sense of word and the best one is french and Japanese cuisine combine, I have seen french or Japanese chefs combining both cuisine together like use of miso paste in french food etc.

As for fast food movement like Mac do, burger king, taco bel etc. That is everywhere unfortunately. I like eating good Kobe beef burger or wagyu burger in Japan or even in Europe I find in some places mostly in good hotels or I also like eating good hamburger in Germany actually, but authentic ones, not in Macdo or Burger king.

[QUOTE=Dreams;2447020]Its not by repeating endlessly the same lies that it make them true.

Still waiting for the scientific links proving efficacy of Avigan, in which patients (young, old, mild, severe).[/QUOTE]Google yourself LOL there are plenty. 20 nations are going to use it for treatment including Germany, so I think German government approval is more relevant than your "professional" amateur opinion LOL!

Use google, I am tire of educating you. Google is good tool, do you know it? LOL!

[QUOTE=Dreams;2447021]Please define "war levels".

Vietnam war? 50000.

Holocaust? 6.000.000.

First WW: 10 Millions.

Japanese invasion of China? (200000 Chinese casualties just in Shanghai).[/QUOTE]Numerically, it is at war level, it is war! LOL.

[QUOTE=Clodius1;2447092]I survived the second wave as a child. Almost wiped out my family. Affected people of all ages, children and adults. Nasty stuff.[/QUOTE]When I woke up like 20 min ago and read this comment of yours, I thought you are the child who survive covid 19 virus and the child is writing on sex forum LOL But then I noticed it is different virus back in the day LOL!

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2447091]I was really surprised when heard French doctors, because for me, smoking kill, but not many smokers died from virus, I think only around 15% of deaths, when they should have bad lungs. Maybe also old don't smoke much. I think also more men than women die.[/QUOTE]There are some report that smoking may prevent dementia too.

Personally I stay away from smoking beside smoking joint in Europe now and then, but even that I stopped, I had my part of fun. If they legalize THC food in Europe, then I will go and eat that for my enjoyment. I would love to go to THC restaurants some fine day. There are some, but not in the nations and area that I frequent.

[QUOTE=Dreams;2447017]Not sure how this relates to my post.

But if you had been in Bergamo end of March you may have changed your mind.

Anyway, I have worked in Sweden many years, and know well the Swedish mentality, very friendly, I liked my time there, but terribly arrogant, they always know better. I was there when Olof Palme was assassinated. They always thought that this kind of things could never happen in their wonderful free society. And could only happen in the uncivilized parts of the world I. E south of Malmoe. Same about them teaching us, those guys living near the Mediterranean, how we should treat better our North Africans immigrants. Now look at the mess they are in with their own, Malmoe is a no-go area.[/QUOTE]I do not find Swedish people arrogant at all, I am sure you may find few that are, but I find Swedish people to be friendly and very fair people, often too fair or try to be so. Maybe your attitude toward them made them defensive that you find them arrogant.

But hey, Sweden is doing good, it is not war level there, it is not war in Sweden!

Where as certain part of Europe is basically at war level death rates with covid 19 and death rate keep on increasing, it is modern day Third world war!

[QUOTE=Dreams;2447021]Please define "war levels".

Vietnam war? 50000.

Holocaust? 6.000.000.

First WW: 10 Millions.

Japanese invasion of China? (200000 Chinese casualties just in Shanghai).[/QUOTE]58300 death in USA, it is more than Vietnam war and it is 58200 death in Vietnam war by the way, respect the victims and get your figures more or less correct and be correct with these thing, not wrong.

You are very wrong as usual. See, very wrong.

Same with mask, just do not listen till it is too late, but I am glad that people are wearing mask in west too finally. It helps.

I am not here to educate you, I am tired of teaching you thing, just get things right, it is not hard to research.

And it is war level death rates, it is not even simple math, it is to with reading numbers, so read numbers correctly and above is one example, just do research yourself and be correct with these thing, it is easy, do not be wrong.

It is war level death rate!

[QUOTE=RockyV;2447065]According to these projections the end of the epidemic in Germany is expected around 6th June, so on the 7th June we may be able to be hand-in-hand with our favourite girl again on our way to the room! LOL.

Rock.[/QUOTE]According to my original plan I was to leave Germany this month and return in July. Cannot say with certainty whether that will happen. Germany may open up their businesses including clubs by that time but not so sure about FKKs. Even if they open up FKKs will Germany allow non EU nationals into the country? If they allow non EU persons in with an initial two week quarantine I will be willing to accept that as now FKK girls are by far my favorite and others don't do it for me as much.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2447121]Well French chefs contributed greatly in area of fusion food, but in very good way, there are some contemporary touch to it in positive sense of word and the best one is french and Japanese cuisine combine, I have seen french or Japanese chefs combining both cuisine together like use of miso paste in french food etc.

As for fast food movement like Mac do, burger king, taco bel etc. That is everywhere unfortunately. I like eating good Kobe beef burger or wagyu burger in Japan or even in Europe I find in some places mostly in good hotels or I also like eating good hamburger in Germany actually, but authentic ones, not in Macdo or Burger king.[/QUOTE]Like most often, you don't seem to understand meaning and for sure you don't know France. At least, I don't claim to know Japan. Before, French ate a lot of French bread, and French meat, and low obesity in France. But since MacDo, Cola, ketchup, more and more obesity which is a disease, making weak versus virus, and unfortunately for more and more children. These facts showed from virus, with many obese in hospitals. Many french are now competing with US.

[QUOTE=MrHo] Google is good tool, do you know it? LOL![/QUOTE]It can even teach you the basic grammar of English.

[QUOTE=Sebastiane;2447119]Based on the Singaporean data mined study and models (as of 27/4) -- which is updated daily -- the 97%, 99% and 100% end dates of the Covid19 pandemic are:

Germany: 4 May 20; 16 May 20; 6 Aug 20.

Austria: 19-April 20; 29-April 20; 13 Jun 20.

Switzerland: 28 April 20; 9 May 20; 7 July 20.

So if we are optimistic and clubs will be allowed to open once 99% of the Covid19 is over then by mid May all FKKs could be open. If we are pessimistic then mid June FKKs in Austria will open first, then in July in Switzerland and in August Germany.

Link: [URL]https://ddi.sutd.edu.sg/when-will-covid-19-end[/URL].[/QUOTE]Western Europe, at least Germany and France are waiting for second wave when reopening. Only 6% were infected in France because of confined, but 1 new infected can infect 3 others. Risk is under control as long R0 <1 . Now free beds, but not sure will be enough if strong second wave, even always been free beds in whole France. When I don t think can use mask, gloves and 1,5 meter away to fuck girls, big spreading risk in brothels and bringing at home to relatives.

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2447112]Sweden's death rate is much higher than their Nordic neighbors, which given the population profiles makes for the best comparisons.

[URL]https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/28/europe/sweden-coronavirus-lockdown-strategy-intl/index.html[/URL]

I'm not sure why there is such an abundance of Covid-19 misinformation in monger forums. But I'm ready to move on and let the ignorance flourish. Is too much work correcting it all.

Cheers gentleman and stay safe.[/QUOTE]And it's much lower than in other countries with lockdowns.

Why is it so hard to accept that lockdowns are not especially effective?

I don't understand why people are so set on ineffective methods which brings more harm than good. The goal have to be to live life as normal as possible with people being able to make a living.

[QUOTE=Dreams;2447017]Not sure how this relates to my post.

But if you had been in Bergamo end of March you may have changed your mind.

Anyway, I have worked in Sweden many years, and know well the Swedish mentality, very friendly, I liked my time there, but terribly arrogant, they always know better. I was there when Olof Palme was assassinated. They always thought that this kind of things could never happen in their wonderful free society. And could only happen in the uncivilized parts of the world I. E south of Malmoe. Same about them teaching us, those guys living near the Mediterranean, how we should treat better our North Africans immigrants. Now look at the mess they are in with their own, Malmoe is a no-go area.[/QUOTE]No offense, but you came to Sweden because you were tired of making peanuts in your native shithole country and now you what to talk about arrogance? If you want to see real arrogance just look yourself in the mirror.

You have to understand that to us North Europeans there's no difference between you and the North Africans. You are both a burden to us. When will the economist down there learn about setting a balanced budget? You are on the verge of becoming a protectorate of the European Union.

I've always been against the migration to Sweden just as I'm against transferring money to the greedy parasites of Southern Europe. I'm sick of you always begging us for money.

[QUOTE=Smoothy;2447039]I seriously doubt that to be true.

I had someone tell me the other day that a 20 year old girl died from coronavirus, so the coronavirus is dangerous for young people as well. I asked "did she have any health problems prior to that"? They replied no, no health problems, she was completely healthy.

Later I found out the girl had bad asthma all her life.

My guess is this smoker "study" is also not giving all the details.[/QUOTE]What you described is sadly true as well, but has nothing to do with nicotine. In any case, all serious scientists do NOT recommend smoking to prevent COVID infection. Since even if it MAY prevent it in a small number of people, it will still kill far many more.

[QUOTE=RockyV;2447065]According to these projections the end of the epidemic in Germany is expected around 6th June, so on the 7th June we may be able to be hand-in-hand with our favourite girl again on our way to the room! LOL.

Rock.[/QUOTE]Well, that is what I call ptimist! Wish you were right. But hypocritical politicians will surely put brothels at the bottom of their list.

[QUOTE=Clodius1;2447090]I think in USA, Trump has clamped down on the sale of nicotine patches. Maybe just with OTC sales, not sure.[/QUOTE]Same in France. Only on prescription for those on a course to stop smoking.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2447091]I was really surprised when heard French doctors, because for me, smoking kill, but not many smokers died from virus, I think only around 15% of deaths, when they should have bad lungs. Maybe also old don't smoke much. I think also more men than women die.[/QUOTE]There is a scientific plausible explanation, I. E the virus and nicotine fight for a spot to land on the lungs. Hence less risks to catch it. But again, it's not foolproof, and, more importantly, once a smoker get sin ICU, his risks of death are higher than non smokers. You are right, smoking kills!

[QUOTE=Clodius1;2447092]I survived the second wave as a child. Almost wiped out my family. Affected people of all ages, children and adults. Nasty stuff.[/QUOTE]War level death rate staff! War!

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2447112]Sweden's death rate is much higher than their Nordic neighbors, which given the population profiles makes for the best comparisons.

[URL]https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/28/europe/sweden-coronavirus-lockdown-strategy-intl/index.html[/URL]

I'm not sure why there is such an abundance of Covid-19 misinformation in monger forums. But I'm ready to move on and let the ignorance flourish. Is too much work correcting it all.

Cheers gentleman and stay safe.[/QUOTE]I agree, and also thought of leaving. But I have, unfortunately, more free time than usual, and I find it interesting to see what fake news make it here, and how some people react to them. A snapshot of society, or at least of a subgroup of men who love women and sex.

[QUOTE=Sebastiane;2447119]Based on the Singaporean data mined study and models (as of 27/4) -- which is updated daily -- the 97%, 99% and 100% end dates of the Covid19 pandemic are:

Germany: 4 May 20; 16 May 20; 6 Aug 20.

Austria: 19-April 20; 29-April 20; 13 Jun 20.

Switzerland: 28 April 20; 9 May 20; 7 July 20.

So if we are optimistic and clubs will be allowed to open once 99% of the Covid19 is over then by mid May all FKKs could be open. If we are pessimistic then mid June FKKs in Austria will open first, then in July in Switzerland and in August Germany.

Link: [URL]https://ddi.sutd.edu.sg/when-will-covid-19-end[/URL].[/QUOTE]What is "End date"? I don't think it means no virus whatsoever anywhere.

No chance of anything like an FKK opening before September, IMYO.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2447122]Google yourself LOL there are plenty. 20 nations are going to use it for treatment including Germany, so I think German government approval is more relevant than your "professional" amateur opinion LOL!

Use google, I am tire of educating you. Google is good tool, do you know it? LOL![/QUOTE]Google is the best source of fake news. I get mine form scientific papers, to each his own.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2447123]Numerically, it is at war level, it is war! LOL.[/QUOTE]Very clear indeed? No need to trivialize this. In such case everything is at war level: Traffic accidents, deaths due to smoking etc.

Anyway, dear Mr Ho, I am done with you, and I have shut you out! Be safe anyway!

[QUOTE=Dreams;2447033]Blessed those who know.

It will be your human right to refuse the vaccine. But it will other's right to stop you travelling if you are not vaccinated. I, for sure would refuse to deal with people like you, and I believe I will be part of a huge majority. And last, of course, as an ICU doctor, I would refuse to treat you, should you come to my unit with respiratory distress.[/QUOTE]If you're a licensed physician on duty and you refused to treat that patient, you't probably lose your license.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2447134]58300 death in USA, it is more than Vietnam war and it is 58200 death in Vietnam war by the way, respect the victims and get your figures more or less correct and be correct with these thing, not wrong.

You are very wrong as usual. See, very wrong.

Same with mask, just do not listen till it is too late, but I am glad that people are wearing mask in west too finally. It helps.

I am not here to educate you, I am tired of teaching you thing, just get things right, it is not hard to research.

And it is war level death rates, it is not even simple math, it is to with reading numbers, so read numbers correctly and above is one example, just do research yourself and be correct with these thing, it is easy, do not be wrong.

It is war level death rate![/QUOTE]With more than 10 millions illegals, so many without insurance, so many unemployed, I m pretty sure the most powerful country with high medical level, one of the best in the world, except in poor zones when low level hospitals because no money around, should probably reach 100 000 for real figures, when Belgium have the highest deaths rate at the moment. When doctors have to learn a lot about this virus, when countries should learn from virus, I thought I knew green motorbike, but after Chinese killer virus, now Japanese Kawasaki syndrome which is big danger for our children, in UK, Italy and France.

This guy Dreams take this sex forum too seriously LOL. It is sex forum LOL.

Dream on Dreams LOL.

[QUOTE=BigBuddy69;2447180]It can even teach you the basic grammar of English.[/QUOTE]Right, but hey, do you even speak other languages? What is your job? Blue collar level office worker? LOL.

[QUOTE=Dreams;2447033]Blessed those who know.

It will be your human right to refuse the vaccine. But it will other's right to stop you travelling if you are not vaccinated. I, for sure would refuse to deal with people like you, and I believe I will be part of a huge majority. And last, of course, as an ICU doctor, I would refuse to treat you, should you come to my unit with respiratory distress.[/QUOTE]ICU doctor? LOL LOL! Scary how ICU doctor refuse to treat you ! LOL LOL.

Is that even legal? LOL LOL!

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2447343]With more than 10 millions illegals, so many without insurance, so many unemployed, I m pretty sure the most powerful country with high medical level, one of the best in the world, except in poor zones when low level hospitals because no money around, should probably reach 100 000 for real figures, when Belgium have the highest deaths rate at the moment. When doctors have to learn a lot about this virus, when countries should learn from virus, I thought I knew green motorbike, but after Chinese killer virus, now Japanese Kawasaki syndrome which is big danger for our children, in UK, Italy and France.[/QUOTE]Japanese Kawasaki syndrome? That is in 80's LOL. What era are you on about and you are just showing your own ignorant and low education taking Asia as a country, it is continent.

Japan by far is more clean than France with better technology, stronger economy, with more manner and hygiene level, this is plain fact, wake up, it is 21st century LOL!

As for America, death rates became more than Vietnam war and it is war level and they have every right to be pissed off at Chinese government, and as for Europe, medical system was not top level in France, Italy and Spain as they like to claim to be, I mean look at this death rates, it is crazy.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2447378]Right, but hey, do you even speak other languages? What is your job? Blue collar level office worker? LOL.[/QUOTE]A job where I don't write LOL in every sentence like a 13 year old and that I got not because of the big wallet of mommy and daddy.

[QUOTE=Dreams;2447232]There is a scientific plausible explanation, I. E the virus and nicotine fight for a spot to land on the lungs. Hence less risks to catch it. But again, it's not foolproof, and, more importantly, once a smoker get sin ICU, his risks of death are higher than non smokers. You are right, smoking kills![/QUOTE]So smokers don't develop virus? When some others make bad infection reactions when they were not known previously sick, fortunately only few. But smokers have bad lungs and many will die, more than 70000 in France per year, more numerous than from virus. Yesterday finished to kill my mood with now dangerous syndrome from Japan for our children. Really difficult time when I can't care much about brothels and prostitutes.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2447237]War level death rate staff! War![/QUOTE]Statistics are a subject matter I have been interested in for over 30 years and I can see from reading this forum how a lot of people are grossly distorting them or misinterpreting them to suit their own preconceptions or arguments. That is in fact what most people do, whether deliberately or by not understanding the nuances involved.

Look, I think a lot of the time people are not being serious but like to engage people in discussions, but in case you are I will address this issue.

Lets look at Vietnam, the 58 000 figure you quote are just US war dead (including not military related deaths) and not the entire toll of the war. The wars actual toll including Vietnamese military and civilian deaths, I am skipping Laos and Cambodia was in excess of 2 million.

Some wars do have low overall casualties, but these are limited conflicts and not fully fledged horrific wars, like the worst we have experienced. I really do not if this was a poor attempt at humor, but the current pandemic is far short of the staggering death tolls of the worst conflicts we have had.

[QUOTE=Mursenary;2447324]If you're a licensed physician on duty and you refused to treat that patient, you't probably lose your license.[/QUOTE]Yes of course, I know and This will obviously never happen. But this was to illustrate that human rights are not black and white: The freedom of one is not superior of the freedom of many more.

Some governments have prohibited children not vaccinated against measles to attend schools (In the UK, measles, who was 100% eradicated is now making a wild comeback.)

Even an antivaccine celebrity, Novak Djokovic, has acknowledged that if he refuses the vaccine against C-19 (if and when we get one, of course) he will not be allowed to travel, let alone compete.

[QUOTE=Dreams;2447505]Yes of course, I know and This will obviously never happen. But this was to illustrate that human rights are not black and white: The freedom of one is not superior of the freedom of many more.

Some governments have prohibited children not vaccinated against measles to attend schools (In the UK, measles, who was 100% eradicated is now making a wild comeback.)

Even an antivaccine celebrity, Novak Djokovic, has acknowledged that if he refuses the vaccine against C-19 (if and when we get one, of course) he will not be allowed to travel, let alone compete.[/QUOTE]You have clever writings, but I don't agree with you about same human rights for everyone, unfortunately, in real life, poor don't have same human rights than rich, and I don't think China, north Korea, Russia and even Us have same human rights than in France.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2447410]Japanese Kawasaki syndrome? That is in 80's LOL. What era are you on about and you are just showing your own ignorant and low education taking Asia as a country, it is continent.

Japan by far is more clean than France with better technology, stronger economy, with more manner and hygiene level, this is plain fact, wake up, it is 21st century LOL!

As for America, death rates became more than Vietnam war and it is war level and they have every right to be pissed off at Chinese government, and as for Europe, medical system was not top level in France, Italy and Spain as they like to claim to be, I mean look at this death rates, it is crazy.[/QUOTE]Real facts everyone can check are in UK, Italy and France, some of our children are now in danger, at the moment, from Japanese Kawasaki syndrome, this after Chinese virus which kill our old or sick people.

[QUOTE=Dreams;2447505]Yes of course, I know and This will obviously never happen. But this was to illustrate that human rights are not black and white: The freedom of one is not superior of the freedom of many more.

Some governments have prohibited children not vaccinated against measles to attend schools (In the UK, measles, who was 100% eradicated is now making a wild comeback.)

Even an antivaccine celebrity, Novak Djokovic, has acknowledged that if he refuses the vaccine against C-19 (if and when we get one, of course) he will not be allowed to travel, let alone compete.[/QUOTE]Your joke make me laugh LOL! You got good sense of humor doctor LOL!

[QUOTE=BigBuddy69;2447442]A job where I don't write LOL in every sentence like a 13 year old and that I got not because of the big wallet of mommy and daddy.[/QUOTE]I am more richer than you, this is all it matter and hey be more cultural and learn another language if you can. Thanks for your jealousy, it is nicer being safe and educated LOL!

And hey, lose some weight big belly LOL!

[QUOTE=MrHo;2447659]I am more richer than you, this is all it matter and hey be more cultural and learn another language if you can. Thanks for your jealousy, it is nicer being safe and educated LOL!

And hey, lose some weight big belly LOL![/QUOTE]Born poor speak like this, same like Romanian WGs: only money matter. When I started to work, I wanted to become the best and to make a lot of money, I worked more than 70 hours per week, my girlfriends told me I was always at work or with my RS500 Cosworth and they were jealous. Getting older, I lost all my relatives I loved, 10 years ago I died with my girlfriend, she made me promise to find a new woman, to make her become as happy as I made her, when she had a difficult as woman, previous married life, she just wanted I would be happy after her, but I was not able. Now I know I m the best performer in my job, I m not working safe close to heater behind a computer, I'm the best because I take risks and they pay me for this, to have balls to keep on working under virus and I go before my teams even they are mostly foreigners when risk, if I wanted, I could make nearly double money, but I don't care, they will give me bonus for risk, but You don t need money when you are dead, when you dream about FKK, this is kind of failure for me, even I have usually the prettiest in any club and I enjoy playing with some, but I was not able for my promise. What I like is feeling a little bit of my previous life, or when I don't see what is below in La Grave above lake Chancel, narrow sharp icy combes, or skiing between rocks in Verbier or between crevaces on Zermatt Klein Matterhorn or la Grave Girose glacier, or when raining a lot, when You arrive behind a big truck putting big water everywhere, then accelerating to pass it, feeling like in car wash, not seeing anything, sometimes hearing shock noise from big speed difference, all this adrenaline which make You feel a bit alive, is so much more interesting than money for me. I m not a poor Romanian WG, I was lucky not to be born poor, but I think my mother who was the best, would cry a lot if she saw my way of life, but at least I always take care of where she is and not only her. 1 November is a long difficult day for me, since so many years. When I climb, I m only motivated to improve my time, but when I climb to higher than 2500 meters high, I feel closer to the sky, I love so much when I climb Gran San Bernardino from Aosta, of course I like to see Scott ski, my ski, factory, but when higher, very beautiful, long but not too climby and I love clouds in the sky looking like angels, I feel like at home. On last years, I skipped because I didn't have enough time and not the most difficult, more difficult on Swiss side, but I want to climb on this Summer to see angels. This is my biggest wealth for deep inside of me. Money is nothing compare to this.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2447410]Japanese Kawasaki syndrome? That is in 80's LOL. What era are you on about and you are just showing your own ignorant and low education taking Asia as a country, it is continent.

Japan by far is more clean than France with better technology, stronger economy, with more manner and hygiene level, this is plain fact, wake up, it is 21st century LOL!

As for America, death rates became more than Vietnam war and it is war level and they have every right to be pissed off at Chinese government, and as for Europe, medical system was not top level in France, Italy and Spain as they like to claim to be, I mean look at this death rates, it is crazy.[/QUOTE]Yes, unfortunately Japanese Kawasaki syndrome is right now in Western Europe, and danger for our children, like Cvirus for our old and sick. Yes, when I was at school, I learned Japan is a small island, close to big China and we had a song from 70's in France about only 600 millions Chinese and now more than double. We all learned about Nagasaki and Hiroshima which was a dirty shameful war, what can become a real war, same like napalm on Vietnam. From what I know about French medical level, even too many deaths, but we have explanations for reasons, for example, like in US, our poorest district where people don't respect confined because they need to work and many social problems, is worst rate, like in US, poverty kill, but if I need again, I will not go elsewhere. I drove from Palace to french border, putting infection everywhere in my blood, to be operated in France, I left hospital on next day to go to work, had to sign a paper to hospital of course, but I could, same for hernie and being put something in my belly, I was with Daria at LR on next day, of course when security came at 4 am to ask to leave, I was stuck in couch with blood going out of scar and couldn't stand up, but my best FKK nurse helped me when I made her even more white skin and turned crazy on that night. Before going to room, I told her I preferred to show her my bloody belly and then she could decide, she became more white than her milky natural skin color, she took key and read 21, so we walked upstairs, not easy for scar, but she mistook reading, when we entered in room 21, a guy was fucking a girl, Daria laughed so much, it was room 12, so 2 stairs to go down to downstairs level, but in room she stopped laughing seeing blood, it was my period, but great time for 2 hours. At the end she asked: You return home now, I answered: I won't be able, I can't move, I can't breathe. So she said: stay with me, rest until closing, she stayed with me. That was her kindness, sweetness, tenderness, she needs love. LR superstar thought she was far above all other girls, even Luana, Amira, Linda, but she knew not above Daria when she saw me looking at her.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2447659]I am more richer than you, this is all it matter and hey be more cultural and learn another language if you can. Thanks for your jealousy, it is nicer being safe and educated LOL!

And hey, lose some weight big belly LOL![/QUOTE]1 - that's 'richer' or 'more rich', not 'more richer' (I learnt it when I was 13 yo in a public school).

2 - 'all that matters'.

3 - Rich doesn't mean educated, it just means that mommy and daddy bought your diplomas. To get a glimpse of your education level, one just has to read your numerous posts on this board.

Has anyone with a normal-functioning brain some real intel on the possible reopenings of clubs in Germany?

[QUOTE=MrHo;2447659]I am more richer than you, this is all it matter and hey be more cultural and learn another language if you can. Thanks for your jealousy, it is nicer being safe and educated LOL!

And hey, lose some weight big belly LOL![/QUOTE]Big Buddy, welcome to the AC, Anglophone Club. Actually, I just because I failed the exam. I don't qualify.

Mr Ho, Vietnam was technically a Police Action, not a war. The official number you quote is the one reflecting the active US military members lost in Vietnam. Even if the foreign fighters and civilians are not counted, the number is higher when US government civilians and other US civilians are counted. Even then, the numbers are small compared to the numbers of Korean, Chinese, Filipinos, Americans, Japanese. That were lost in what I consider a single Pacific conflict that lasted from the early 1900's through the mid 1940's. People often forget that there were intercontinental Asian conflicts happening long before Pearl Harbor and continued long after delivery of the Little Boy and the Fat Man. It's obvious that some level of Nationalistic pride still exists. I prefer to let that superiority be determined in a friendly sporting competition such as upcoming Summer Olympics. I hope the Japanese medical pioneers are truly able to find an effective vaccination or treatment COVID-19 by then.

As I said earlier, with exception of the capacity of the ISS, human kind are bound to Earth. Travel advances, international businesses, holiday, etc. Create an environment where a country could be virus free, but suffer a recurrence delivered from a friendly or unfriendly entity outside it's borders.

News about the lockdown: [URL]https://www.wz.de/nrw/corona-drei-stufen-plan-zur-oeffnung-von-gastronomie-und-hotels-in-nrw_aid-50302691?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook[/URL]#Echobox=1588159981.

The plan is for a slow loosening of the lockdown in the next few weeks with hotels allowed to fully open around May 25.

Any plans to drive from England to hit the FKK's is still very premature but this is progress.

[QUOTE=TheCane;2443235]Another theory, as put forth by the Washington Post: [URL]https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/state-department-cables-warned-safety-issues-wuhan-lab-studying-bat-coronaviruses/[/URL].[/QUOTE]Remember this? It was about how there just happened to be a big Coronavirus Lab in the Chinese city where the Coronavirus originated. Purely coincidental I'm sure.

[NOPARSE] Two weeks later, something else is finally revealed to the public. The Coronovirus Lab in China was funded by... nice guy Dr Fauci![/NOPARSE]

[URL]https://www.newsweek.com/dr-fauci-backed-controversial-wuhan-lab-millions-us-dollars-risky-coronavirus-research-1500741[/URL]

The Coronavirus research was considered too dangerous to be conducted in the US. Even the possibility of a leak in China was thought too risky and the Obama administration cut off funding. Then the funding was restored by the Trump administration. Amazing how the news media managed to black all this out for so long.

If we were in a novel, this would be the big plot twist in chapter twenty-three.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2447854]Remember this? It was about how there just happened to be a big Coronavirus Lab in the Chinese city where the Coronavirus originated. Purely coincidental I'm sure.

[NOPARSE] Two weeks later, something else is finally revealed to the public. The Coronovirus Lab in China was funded by... nice guy Dr Fauci![/NOPARSE]

[URL]https://www.newsweek.com/dr-fauci-backed-controversial-wuhan-lab-millions-us-dollars-risky-coronavirus-research-1500741[/URL]

The Coronavirus research was considered too dangerous to be conducted in the US. Even the possibility of a leak in China was thought too risky and the Obama administration cut off funding. Then the funding was restored by the Trump administration. Amazing how the news media managed to black all this out for so long.

If we were in a novel, this would be the big plot twist in chapter twenty-three.[/QUOTE]All I know is it's time to eat! It's dinner time everybody! Yum, yum! Hahahahaha! Call me many things, but don't call me late for dinner LOL!

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2447742][noparse]...[/noparse] Getting older, I lost all my relatives I loved, 10 years ago I died with my girlfriend, she made me promise to find a new woman, to make her become as happy as I made her, when she had a difficult as woman, previous married life, she just wanted I would be happy after her, but I was not able. [noparse]...[/noparse] when you dream about FKK, this is kind of failure for me, even I have usually the prettiest in any club and I enjoy playing with some, but I was not able for my promise. What I like is feeling a little bit of my previous life, or when I don't see what is below in La Grave above lake Chance[noparse]...[/noparse] I m not a poor Romanian WG, I was lucky not to be born poor, but I think my mother who was the best, would cry a lot if she saw my way of life, but at least I always take care of where she is and not only her. 1 November is a long difficult day for me, since so many years[noparse]....[/noparse][/QUOTE]Siri, thank you for sharing these personal stories. I am sorry to hear about these sad experiences, and I hope you find the happiness of your previous life; not just a shadow of it in FKK. Wish you the best.

[QUOTE=CuriousExplore;2447884]Siri, thank you for sharing these personal stories. I am sorry to hear about these sad experiences, and I hope you find the happiness of your previous life; not just a shadow of it in FKK. Wish you the best.[/QUOTE]No risk in FKK land. Just have to pay to play, each one own game. Good point is I don t miss so much since 14 March, I have more important things to think about at the moment. I miss much more my real sports. I found and chose one, because different look so easier to manage, to live again what I didn't have enough time for, when blond full GFE Claudia killed my mind with her intense blue eyes, too complicated with her, even lovely real passionate.

[QUOTE=BigBuddy69;2447766]1 - that's 'richer' or 'more rich', not 'more richer' (I learnt it when I was 13 yo in a public school).

2 - 'all that matters'.

3 - Rich doesn't mean educated, it just means that mommy and daddy bought your diplomas. To get a glimpse of your education level, one just has to read your numerous posts on this board.

Has anyone with a normal-functioning brain some real intel on the possible reopenings of clubs in Germany?[/QUOTE]Someone who does not even speak second language is lecturing me LOL. Wow, thanks big belly LOL!

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2447742]Born poor speak like this, same like Romanian WGs: only money matter. When I started to work, I wanted to become the best and to make a lot of money, I worked more than 70 hours per week, my girlfriends told me I was always at work or with my RS500 Cosworth and they were jealous. Getting older, I lost all my relatives I loved, 10 years ago I died with my girlfriend, she made me promise to find a new woman, to make her become as happy as I made her, when she had a difficult as woman, previous married life, she just wanted I would be happy after her, but I was not able. Now I know I m the best performer in my job, I m not working safe close to heater behind a computer, I'm the best because I take risks and they pay me for this, to have balls to keep on working under virus and I go before my teams even they are mostly foreigners when risk, if I wanted, I could make nearly double money, but I don't care, they will give me bonus for risk, but You don t need money when you are dead, when you dream about FKK, this is kind of failure for me, even I have usually the prettiest in any club and I enjoy playing with some, but I was not able for my promise. What I like is feeling a little bit of my previous life, or when I don't see what is below in La Grave above lake Chancel, narrow sharp icy combes, or skiing between rocks in Verbier or between crevaces on Zermatt Klein Matterhorn or la Grave Girose glacier, or when raining a lot, when You arrive behind a big truck putting big water everywhere, then accelerating to pass it, feeling like in car wash, not seeing anything, sometimes hearing shock noise from big speed difference, all this adrenaline which make You feel a bit alive, is so much more interesting than money for me. I m not a poor Romanian WG, I was lucky not to be born poor, but I think my mother who was the best, would cry a lot if she saw my way of life, but at least I always take care of where she is and not only her. 1 November is a long difficult day for me, since so many years. When I climb, I m only motivated to improve my time, but when I climb to higher than 2500 meters high, I feel closer to the sky, I love so much when I climb Gran San Bernardino from Aosta, of course I like to see Scott ski, my ski, factory, but when higher, very beautiful, long but not too climby and I love clouds in the sky looking like angels, I feel like at home. On last years, I skipped because I didn't have enough time and not the most difficult, more difficult on Swiss side, but I want to climb on this Summer to see angels. This is my biggest wealth for deep inside of me. Money is nothing compare to this.[/QUOTE]Well I did not born poor, and if you ask me, I respect people who is self made much more by the way because simply, it is much harder that way.

And hey, you got too much media and society norm based image and illusions on life in general. I know many rich people and I tell you the face, most of them are biggest ego centered scam bag in the world, who does not even admit that they are. Personally, I admit most of my fault if any, and I talk trash if I have to, I always have, I always will, I just stopped fighting myself as I was never arrested and I rather not have problem with police for rest of my life.

But like with FKK prostitutes, you should check yourself because you have too much hallucination, you ex girlfriend broke your heart as you said and you seek the treatment basically in FKK which is brothel, I think it is not healthy way to go, it is mental problem, FKK is brothel and it is where you go to have sex, not treatment, well if you want FKK as clinic FKK, then suit your self LOL! But it is not healthy for your head and mind. And so much more mental work for prostitutes, poor prostitutes who has to deal with this treatments of yours LOL!

FKK is brothel and it is not hospital, it is not proper place to go to seek for your misery of failed ex girlfriend of yours as you said.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2447903]Well I did not born poor, and if you ask me, I respect people who is self made much more by the way because simply, it is much harder that way.

And hey, you got too much media and society norm based image and illusions on life in general. I know many rich people and I tell you the face, most of them are biggest ego centered scam bag in the world, who does not even admit that they are. Personally, I admit most of my fault if any, and I talk trash if I have to, I always have, I always will, I just stopped fighting myself as I was never arrested and I rather not have problem with police for rest of my life.

But like with FKK prostitutes, you should check yourself because you have too much hallucination, you ex girlfriend broke your heart as you said and you seek the treatment basically in FKK which is brothel, I think it is not healthy way to go, it is mental problem, FKK is brothel and it is where you go to have sex, not treatment, well if you want FKK as clinic FKK, then suit your self LOL! But it is not healthy for your head and mind. And so much more mental work for prostitutes, poor prostitutes who has to deal with this treatments of yours LOL!

FKK is brothel and it is not hospital, it is not proper place to go to seek for your misery of failed ex girlfriend of yours as you said.[/QUOTE]OK, my English may not be the best, even I train hard, writing here, but I don't know what is your second language because most often you don't get the meaning and again on this time. I'm sure for 110% she wanted I would be happy with another, after her. I think she and my mother would be so disappointed to see my new way of life, not about job or ski or climbing, they knew, I don't think so much about a prostitute beauty because they knew I love beauty, but about brothels and I remember my LR girl telling me: this is not a place for you. So I told: OK, so I won't come back, so she said: why? You don't want to see me again? I will miss you. Land of cleverness. At least, like ski or mountains, FKK relax my mind, but when I never had a 6 weeks break since I started with escorts on end of 2010, I'm surprised, I didn't think would be no real missing, I miss much more my real sports and my freedom even getting allowance to move for my job, but not really freedom, I can't go where I want, but if confined saved more than 60000 French, then it s OK for me and at the moment I'm even happy to pay tax because my most important worry at the moment is what will be french economy. I don t worry about french medical level even too many deaths, I won't criticize Macron about virus, because except a German specialist for virus, nobody know much about this virus, and now we have another Asian disease for our children, but I worry a lot Macron didn't learn arithmetic at school. With exploding unemployment, who will pay our bill? When France is number 1 in the World for tourism, a small country above US, China, because of French culture, no tourism, we don't even know if we will go on holidays, and at best, only Western Europeans may come. EU borders should remain closed for a while when US and Asians are big tourism in France. So, brothels are not so important.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2447900]Someone who does not even speak second language is lecturing me LOL. Wow, thanks big belly LOL![/QUOTE]I'm french so English is my second language, maybe you didn't get it, too much weed and Viagra in your blood I think.

No you despise poor people because you are a narrow minded rich spoilt brat. Some kind of Japanese Donald Trump. And actually we say 'I wasn't born poor'. You should try to open books (dictionaries for instance) from time to time. Funny how the serial posters here all suffer from heavy psychological disorders.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2447589]You have clever writings, but I don't agree with you about same human rights for everyone, unfortunately, in real life, poor don't have same human rights than rich, and I don't think China, north Korea, Russia and even Us have same human rights than in France.[/QUOTE]I fully agree. I was not comparing countries, just talking about people in the same country / political system. However, you are right: poor people have always been at the bottom since the dawn of times. And that so in all political systems, communist (poor were having terrible times in the Soviet Union, and still have in Venezuela and Cuba, for instance), but also in our capitalist system, even if I agree that I would rather be living in western Europe or Japan than the Us if I was in the " poor" category.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2447742]Born poor speak like this, same like Romanian WGs: only money matter. When I started to work, I wanted to become the best and to make a lot of money, I worked more than 70 hours per week, my girlfriends told me I was always at work or with my RS500 Cosworth and they were jealous. Getting older, I lost all my relatives I loved, 10 years ago I died with my girlfriend, she made me promise to find a new woman, to make her become as happy as I made her, when she had a difficult as woman, previous married life, she just wanted I would be happy after her, but I was not able. Now I know I m the best performer in my job, I m not working safe close to heater behind a computer, I'm the best because I take risks and they pay me for this, to have balls to keep on working under virus and I go before my teams even they are mostly foreigners when risk, if I wanted, I could make nearly double money, but I don't care, they will give me bonus for risk, but You don t need money when you are dead, when you dream about FKK, this is kind of failure for me, even I have usually the prettiest in any club and I enjoy playing with some, but I was not able for my promise. What I like is feeling a little bit of my previous life, or when I don't see what is below in La Grave above lake Chancel, narrow sharp icy combes, or skiing between rocks in Verbier or between crevaces on Zermatt Klein Matterhorn or la Grave Girose glacier, or when raining a lot, when You arrive behind a big truck putting big water everywhere, then accelerating to pass it, feeling like in car wash, not seeing anything, sometimes hearing shock noise from big speed difference, all this adrenaline which make You feel a bit alive, is so much more interesting than money for me. I m not a poor Romanian WG, I was lucky not to be born poor, but I think my mother who was the best, would cry a lot if she saw my way of life, but at least I always take care of where she is and not only her. 1 November is a long difficult day for me, since so many years.[/QUOTE]Very moving post. Looks like you wrote it while in an emotional state. Make me feel like I'll like to meet you once.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2447900]Someone who does not even speak second language is lecturing me LOL. Wow, thanks big belly LOL![/QUOTE]Perhaps someone who speaks a second language to a level beyond the knowledge of people who speak it as their mother tongue. Your nationalistic pride is respectable but your presentation can be a bit offensive. Just saying. LOL LOL this is a sex forum. I appreciate some good banter but within reason. Perhaps a bit of self respect could be displayed. LOL LOL.

[QUOTE=Chongmal;2448029]Perhaps someone who speaks a second language to a level beyond the knowledge of people who speak it as their mother tongue. Your nationalistic pride is respectable but your presentation can be a bit offensive. Just saying. LOL LOL this is a sex forum. I appreciate some good banter but within reason. Perhaps a bit of self respect could be displayed. LOL LOL.[/QUOTE]Isn't Bigbuddy French? Or did I make a wrong guess?

I speak just one language. Not much more can be expected from me, LOL.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2447976]OK, my English may not be the best, even I train hard, writing here, but I don't know what is your second language because most often you don't get the meaning and again on this time. I'm sure for 110% she wanted I would be happy with another, after her. I think she and my mother would be so disappointed to see my new way of life, not about job or ski or climbing, they knew, I don't think so much about a prostitute beauty because they knew I love beauty, but about brothels and I remember my LR girl telling me: this is not a place for you. So I told: OK, so I won't come back, so she said: why? You don't want to see me again? I will miss you. Land of cleverness. At least, like ski or mountains, FKK relax my mind, but when I never had a 6 weeks break since I started with escorts on end of 2010, I'm surprised, I didn't think would be no real missing, I miss much more my real sports and my freedom even getting allowance to move for my job, but not really freedom, I can't go where I want, but if confined saved more than 60000 French, then it s OK for me and at the moment I'm even happy to pay tax because my most important worry at the moment is what will be french economy. I don t worry about french medical level even too many deaths, I won't criticize Macron about virus, because except a German specialist for virus, nobody know much about this virus, and now we have another Asian disease for our children, but I worry a lot Macron didn't learn arithmetic at school. With exploding unemployment, who will pay our bill? When France is number 1 in the World for tourism, a small country above US, China, because of French culture, no tourism, we don't even know if we will go on holidays, and at best, only Western Europeans may come. EU borders should remain closed for a while when US and Asians are big tourism in France. So, brothels are not so important.[/QUOTE]I never mentioned about your English ability and hey, I just woke up and writing this, this is sex forum as I said, I don't and I am sure you don't check your writing as well, I think some people should relax here LOL.

[QUOTE=BigBuddy69;2447985]I'm french so English is my second language, maybe you didn't get it, too much weed and Viagra in your blood I think.

No you despise poor people because you are a narrow minded rich spoilt brat. Some kind of Japanese Donald Trump. And actually we say 'I wasn't born poor'. You should try to open books (dictionaries for instance) from time to time. Funny how the serial posters here all suffer from heavy psychological disorders.[/QUOTE]It is not disorder, it is internet forum, so we can be open and at the same time be anonymous. You are the one who mentioned about it, not me. As for spoil brat, well I must agree with that to some extent and I do realize how lucky I am, and as for Donald trump thing, well. I kind of put it on. I do like Japan though, it is not because I am Japanese, but it is respectable nation and it is only non white G7 or even already was G5 nation.

As for weed, I quit by the way, it is not that I wanted to, but it is illegal here, so I never done it here and as for FKK, I realized it is better without. And hey, it ain't Viagra, it is Cialis I am taking in FKK, so I still can do more than 5 rooms LOL! If not I end with 3 rooms now LOL.

It is not disorder to reply properly, I write these posts quick and I don't even check the context, spelling or grammar, but I do reply to people who write and be open with some anonymity about me and also girls who still works in FKK because I know I must protect them to some extent like I know some of their private information or things they do for me in room that they may not want to do to others, so I keep it quiet till they quit FKK industry.

[QUOTE=Chongmal;2448029]Perhaps someone who speaks a second language to a level beyond the knowledge of people who speak it as their mother tongue. Your nationalistic pride is respectable but your presentation can be a bit offensive. Just saying. LOL LOL this is a sex forum. I appreciate some good banter but within reason. Perhaps a bit of self respect could be displayed. LOL LOL.[/QUOTE]We were just arguing as usual, so any punch would be thrown LOL. I am not sure if national pride is good thing as you see how it has divided the world even though I do see Donald trump as like homeopathy into politic, like you know throw poison into congress to destroy poison to change things. Whether it is good change or not, I don't know LOL, but he is still there.

I appreciate your manner within your mild complaint LOL. I kind of put it on, so I may lower it time to time.

[QUOTE=Dreams;2448015]Very moving post. Looks like you wrote it while in an emotional state. Make me feel like I'll like to meet you once.[/QUOTE]I have to admit Sir Ioja does the whole manchild thing better than anyone I know. I can see how a lot of girls would be attracted to that heart-on-sleeve approach. On the other hand, it does seem kinda wasted on the Romanians, as 90% of them haven't a molecule of romance in their barbie bodies and will just be thinking about how to screw every penny out of every sentiment you can offer them.

By the way Dreams, still waiting for you in the Lounge to compare soaplands to FKKs. For example, would you say on average that Japanese girls have sweeter personalities than Romanian girls?

Also, how are employment opportunities for a gaijin? I was pondering the possibility of going over to Japan and trying to get a job as a Sauna Boy, but I'm afraid they might ask me to take off my turban. And if you're a Sauna Boy can you get fired for sexual harrassment? Not that I was planning on doing that myself of course. Asking for a friend.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2448176]I can see how a lot of girls would be attracted to that heart-on-sleeve approach. On the other hand, it does seem kinda wasted on the Romanians, as 90% of them haven't a molecule of romance in their barbie bodies and will just be thinking about how to screw every penny out of every sentiment you can offer them.[/QUOTE]I'm sure lots of sex workers are repulsed by men acting like love-sick puppies who may become creepy stalkers. They prefer customers who behave like grown-ups and are aware that they are paying for a sexual relationship, nothing else, nothing more. It has nothing to do with Romanians, they are not looking for romance. Neither are the Germans or every other nationalities.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2448176]I have to admit Sir Ioja does the whole manchild thing better than anyone I know. I can see how a lot of girls would be attracted to that heart-on-sleeve approach. On the other hand, it does seem kinda wasted on the Romanians, as 90% of them haven't a molecule of romance in their barbie bodies and will just be thinking about how to screw every penny out of every sentiment you can offer them.

By the way Dreams, still waiting for you in the Lounge to compare soaplands to FKKs. For example, would you say on average that Japanese girls have sweeter personalities than Romanian girls?

Also, how are employment opportunities for a gaijin? I was pondering the possibility of going over to Japan and trying to get a job as a Sauna Boy, but I'm afraid they might ask me to take off my turban. And if you're a Sauna Boy can you get fired for sexual harrassment? Not that I was planning on doing that myself of course. Asking for a friend.[/QUOTE]We may not experience same, we only experience from what we are. Romanians are my best for woman reactions and behavior, what I look for. I don't need hardcore sex or to have my ass licked, but I really enjoy to feel woman reactions. Some Germans can be woman for sex, not many, most being almost like robot, but except my German escort, about their behavior, I feel too much they are at work, not much illusion, so, not much interesting for me. Among my Russian escorts, some are real beauties, some are fire in bed, but they are on tour to make money and return home, even can sometimes have Russian nights for 200/250 with restaurant and gift like perfume or Disney toy for child, then little mum become so generous for sex. But Romanians who have only dick pimp level for sex for experience, first they say: You are too big for my small pussy, even when married for 1 year, but they must only play cards in bed. So you say: trust me, I will take care of You. Then, even busy, they return, saying: I know how You treated me. Then they start to look what you do, which girl you go with, how you behave with other girls, asking: she is your girlfriend? I remember full busy superstar Kate at Globe who was jealous about Larissa on 2016 , even I always went with Kate first because I went for her, even I was so happy to find again Isabella after 2 years, also telling me on Summer 2018: You found a new girlfriend? About Sofia. Busy, but always looking at what I was doing, even she was my number 1 at Globe and a long time in business, but only you behave like this, as she said. Some ask: You do the same with other girls? Some take risk and say: I don t want you go with other girls, when they risk answer like: we are not married, I pay so I can go with everybody, but, for few of us, if You go with another girl, then she will prefer to lose your money, even you may be her biggest money, this is interesting when they are ready to lose what they pay entry for, and even when they are not so busy. I know I made a mistake on Vatertag 2015 at World, when she disappointed me for second time, but when she saw me going with another girl, when I saw her eyes, and baby face was sweet but so low level. Funny at LR, when I said to Daria I couldn't go with her, but I kissed her with tenderness, I received dark eyes even when she was with another guy, but I saw her so proud when Daria left, sometimes to go to cry, coming back after drinking with Karina who came to me shouting: What You do to my friend? From your behavior, from how You treat them, from how You are able to value them and nothing about money, they may delay bigger money, but only money, for You. Even really busy, but they look at what You are doing, they are so happy when gossiping guys give them information about You, but they know gossiping guys are just from jealousy. Romanian beauties, because beauties always play on higher level than GND, are best players for love games, because they like to be treated as princess, and since I was a little boy, I always preferred princess than average looks. This is why I drive so many kilometers to FKK land, to create beautiful princesses for me, had to work hard with some who were really low level for sex, to make them improve and become good for me, to dream, to forget a bit, but this is only a game. When a prostitute ask You for love, then this is time to run away, because many problems which kill pleasure. Anyway, impossible for me with a girl who fuck with everybody, so not so risky game for me to play love, even I sometimes go really into, but I have my warnings. Anyway behavior is more important for me than trash sex, and Romanian beauties are my best for this. Some are close to French women and same jealousy. Also same sensuality, when real lack of sensuality for Germans who are mostly in technique.

[QUOTE=Chongmal;2448029]Perhaps someone who speaks a second language to a level beyond the knowledge of people who speak it as their mother tongue. Your nationalistic pride is respectable but your presentation can be a bit offensive. Just saying. LOL LOL this is a sex forum. I appreciate some good banter but within reason. Perhaps a bit of self respect could be displayed. LOL LOL.[/QUOTE]Well said. English is my second language, and I sincerely think, without excessive lack of humility, that I speak, or write it, better than many.

I don't agree that excessive nationalistic pride is acceptable. You start from apparently "inoffensive" banter, and it leads to. What we all either lived, or for those younger, learnt in history books.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2448176]By the way Dreams, still waiting for you in the Lounge to compare soaplands to FKKs. For example, would you say on average that Japanese girls have sweeter personalities than Romanian girls?

Also, how are employment opportunities for a gaijin? I was pondering the possibility of going over to Japan and trying to get a job as a Sauna Boy, but I'm afraid they might ask me to take off my turban. And if you're a Sauna Boy can you get fired for sexual harrassment? Not that I was planning on doing that myself of course. Asking for a friend.[/QUOTE]I had answered, but because I did something wrong some 5 years ago, all my posts have to be checked before being posted, and I think I, again, broke one rule: mentioning a competing site. So I assume my post was not posted. Will try to answer your questions again, being careful not to breach any rule! So watch the space there.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2448159]I never mentioned about your English ability and hey, I just woke up and writing this, this is sex forum as I said, I don't and I am sure you don't check your writing as well, I think some people should relax here LOL.[/QUOTE]I was meaning you don't seem most often to understand meaning of my words, for example my last girlfriend didn't break my heart, but she and her love are still stuck deep inside of me, 10 years later, which is problem to make a new life, even our start was complicated, mostly because of her husband who treated her like shit but was jealous she became happy, always smiling with me, even very complicated for me with no sex at our beginning, because she didn't like sex with him and so big frustration for me when you desire a beautiful woman. She told me: I thought you would leave me, you would not wait for me. She never saw my very wet eyes when too big frustration, but patience, love and manners to try slowly, softly and sweetly succeeded. I was proud when after she asked me for, with her words: you come to bed, I wait for you, with her so beautiful smile. In brothels, when I succeed to find a attractive girl, rare for me, I usually go only with her, easier to avoid jealousy and closer to reality for my mind, but when I usually get the prettiest FKK girls, beauties are usually attracted by my manners with women, but real pride and success for me, much more than making money, would have been to meet her when we were both young and to have my whole life only with her, this would have been real success for me, when I was only happy she did thank me for happiness she discovered on her second life, I was a mother, you made me woman, as she said. Much more Interesting than brothels, even I enjoy when beauties trust me and follow my games.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2448176]........... it does seem kinda wasted on the Romanians, as 90% of them haven't a molecule of romance in their barbie bodies and will just be thinking about how to screw every penny out of every sentiment you can offer them...............[/QUOTE]You can safely substitute prostitutes for Romanians in this post. Many women who become hookers have been used, lied to, cheated on, swindled and abused by men. Many, therefore, do not have a favorable view of men and seek to extract as much money out of them as possible. Also many men have been cheated on, lied to, used and swindled by women. These men also don't have a favorable view of women. I can tell from some posts especially in the Asian and Latin American forums that there are hurting men from the terrible things they say about women and their attitude towards them in the p4p scenario.

I am fortunate never to have allowed myself to have been negatively affected by women. In the p4p environment I treat all women with courtesy and respect even if their intention is to use me, chew me and spit me out. I have evolved to not be too concerned about those women who provide poor service, it always works out to be about 10%, I accept that and go with the flow. I have met numerous delightful women in this business a lot of them Eastern Europeans. Many are sweet although not so good looking. How can I forget Romanian Aime who on my first visit this year in January made a heart thingy with her fingers when she saw me on my entrance in Sharks. I will continue to show them love.

In this dark time, when with one of the best medical level, we have more than 30.000 deaths in France with deaths at home, but a good news for me is, despite poverty and very average medical level, Africa manage quite well at the moment about virus. I m very happy for them. Few explanations: not many diabetics, not many hypertension, quite young population because of many other diseases. I think we should forbid US foods for our children who are becoming fat and diabetic or with hypertension. African foods seem better for health. This show once again figures about virus are much more mirror about how we live than about medical level, when Africa seem to perform better than US and Western Europe. Not sure Brazil now under crisis, but with their president, will succeed like Africa.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2448283]I was meaning you don't seem most often to understand meaning of my words, for example my last girlfriend didn't break my heart, but she and her love are still stuck deep inside of me, 10 years later, which is problem to make a new life, even our start was complicated, mostly because of her husband who treated her like shit but was jealous she became happy, always smiling with me, even very complicated for me with no sex at our beginning, because she didn't like sex with him and so big frustration for me when you desire a beautiful woman. She told me: I thought you would leave me, you would not wait for me. She never saw my very wet eyes when too big frustration, but patience, love and manners to try slowly, softly and sweetly succeeded. I was proud when after she asked me for, with her words: you come to bed, I wait for you, with her so beautiful smile. In brothels, when I succeed to find a attractive girl, rare for me, I usually go only with her, easier to avoid jealousy and closer to reality for my mind, but when I usually get the prettiest FKK girls, beauties are usually attracted by my manners with women, but real pride and success for me, much more than making money, would have been to meet her when we were both young and to have my whole life only with her, this would have been real success for me, when I was only happy she did thank me for happiness she discovered on her second life, I was a mother, you made me woman, as she said. Much more Interesting than brothels, even I enjoy when beauties trust me and follow my games.[/QUOTE]Well each their own for FKK, but FKK is place to buy sex, not place to seek treatment for lost love, but it is each their own. I use FKK just for sexual desire and things I cannot or should not do with normal girls. Plus I hate this whole process of getting girls to the extent I prefer fucking beautiful prostitute than beautiful normal girl. I need hard dirty sex.

[QUOTE=BigBuddy69;2448244]I'm sure lots of sex workers are repulsed by men acting like love-sick puppies who may become creepy stalkers. They prefer customers who behave like grown-ups and are aware that they are paying for a sexual relationship, nothing else, nothing more. It has nothing to do with Romanians, they are not looking for romance. Neither are the Germans or every other nationalities.[/QUOTE]Yeah, but many sex workers like to use that "lovesickness" to increase their profits. How often has not a prostitute told a customer that he is good looking or in other ways complimented him to make him feel like they have a real connection and the sex will be great? I do believe that prostitutes knows that they can make more money selling a fantasy than just sex. Indirectly the prostitutes are encouraging that lovesickness.

In one club a sex worker went around introducing a client as her "boyfriend" to her friends. Another told her prey that she would have dated him if they met at a regular nightclub.

Although that behavior is more common among Latinas, they are much better saleswomen / actresses than Romanians.

If a prostitute told her customers what she really thought of them, LMFAO! She would be out of business and no man would be able to get an erection with her.

[QUOTE=BigBuddy69;2448244]I'm sure lots of sex workers are repulsed by men acting like love-sick puppies who may become creepy stalkers. They prefer customers who behave like grown-ups and are aware that they are paying for a sexual relationship, nothing else, nothing more. It has nothing to do with Romanians, they are not looking for romance. Neither are the Germans or every other nationalities.[/QUOTE]Wow Bigbuddy69, we agree on this one LOL!

Girls usually hate guys who like have mental related session like true love feeling kind of session etc. They much prefer pure sexual session clients who pay for some fetish act like me with rimjob.

However, girls continue to go with these lovesick puppy clients because usually, these guys are the most returning and most paying clients in long run, but inside girls hate such clients the most because it is most complicated and also as you mentioned, they become like stalkers wanting to know her real name, where she lives etc. There has been some murder incidents with such clients and FKK girl.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2448357]In this dark time, when with one of the best medical level, we have more than 30.000 deaths in France with deaths at home, but a good news for me is, despite poverty and very average medical level, Africa manage quite well at the moment about virus. I m very happy for them. Few explanations: not many diabetics, not many hypertension, quite young population because of many other diseases. I think we should forbid US foods for our children who are becoming fat and diabetic or with hypertension. African foods seem better for health. This show once again figures about virus are much more mirror about how we live than about medical level, when Africa seem to perform better than US and Western Europe. Not sure Brazil now under crisis, but with their president, will succeed like Africa.[/QUOTE]How the hell with best medical level or medical system can have 30000 deaths, it is not, look at the fact.

[QUOTE=ShooBree;2448370]If a prostitute told her customers what she really thought of them, LMFAO! She would be out of business and no man would be able to get an erection with her.[/QUOTE]One time a Romanian tute at Oase really pissed me off from something she said. She stated in a rather condescending way that I wasn't "normal" (and ultimately not good enough for her outside of the club I gathered) because I patronized a place like Oase. Now, although that pissed me off, I didn't react. Not going to let a tute ruin my vibe. But I did think, "So what does your working here say about you then"? But no, I didn't react. I just went with her to the room and got my nuts sucked. Then I fucked her in the ass! And she was good too. Tit for tat!

[QUOTE=MrHo;2448412]How the hell with best medical level or medical system can have 30000 deaths, it is not, look at the fact.[/QUOTE]Because the virus spread really fast in France. Wearing a mask was not encouraged until recently. Mostly because there were no stocks actually. Lots of people thought it was just a big flu and didn't change their habits until the lockdown.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2448363]Well each their own for FKK, but FKK is place to buy sex, not place to seek treatment for lost love, but it is each their own. I use FKK just for sexual desire and things I cannot or should not do with normal girls. Plus I hate this whole process of getting girls to the extent I prefer fucking beautiful prostitute than beautiful normal girl. I need hard dirty sex.[/QUOTE]I hate dirty things, I was used to princess types, meaning elegant with good manners, in real life, I learned sex with princesses, not with porn or prostitutes, I know only this way for sex and I don't need to change, best sex for me is the closest to my past real life.

[QUOTE=ShooBree;2448370]Yeah, but many sex workers like to use that "lovesickness" to increase their profits. How often has not a prostitute told a customer that he is good looking or in other ways complimented him to make him feel like they have a real connection and the sex will be great? I do believe that prostitutes knows that they can make more money selling a fantasy than just sex. Indirectly the prostitutes are encouraging that lovesickness.

In one club a sex worker went around introducing a client as her "boyfriend" to her friends. Another told her prey that she would have dated him if they met at a regular nightclub.

Although that behavior is more common among Latinas, they are much better saleswomen / actresses than Romanians.

If a prostitute told her customers what she really thought of them, LMFAO! She would be out of business and no man would be able to get an erection with her.[/QUOTE]I know you did not mention Sirioja but he does not come across as a love puppy. He says he makes a continual assessment of the girls based on their behavior. He prefers girls who look and behave in a certain way and it works for him. He also said many times that girls who appeal to him may not appeal to other men. I have found my likes and girl picks usually do not match his, and that does not bother me. He likes his girls, I like mine.

I don't understand this constant snippy back and forth "my tatstes, my way, my selections yadda yadda are better than yours". It is pretty pathetic to be cheest thumping about how great, rich, educated, smart, good looking, your are and how big is your dick. In an anonymous internet forum. Around here, anyone can play any role he wants to.

BTW, my comment is not directed at you ShooBree. I enjoy your posts.

[QUOTE=TheCane;2448482]One time a Romanian tute at Oase really pissed me off from something she said. She stated in a rather condescending way that I wasn't "normal" (and ultimately not good enough for her outside of the club I gathered) because I patronized a place like Oase. Now, although that pissed me off, I didn't react. Not going to let a tute ruin my vibe. But I did think, "So what does your working here say about you then"? But no, I didn't react. I just went with her to the room and got my nuts sucked. Then I fucked her in the ass! And she was good too. Tit for tat![/QUOTE]There are actually some girls who think differently. When I was working regularly in the south Caribbean I used to regularly patronize a cute Indian working girl. We were having small talk after sex one day and I mentioned to her the possibility of her getting into a serious relationship with a regular client. Her response was that that is ok but he will always use where he met her against her in future arguments. Interesting perspective.

[QUOTE=Turgid;2448516]There are actually some girls who think differently. When I was working regularly in the south Caribbean I used to regularly patronize a cute Indian working girl. We were having small talk after sex one day and I mentioned to her the possibility of her getting into a serious relationship with a regular client. Her response was that that is ok but he will always use where he met her against her in future arguments. Interesting perspective.[/QUOTE]Many, many prostitutes have told me something similar, but leading to a solidly different conclusion. That they did not want any long term ties to a client because he would always see her as a prostitute, and that if they got into an argument, the guy would use it against her. One told me that she was even concerned that she might be called a puta in front of the kids. So, they would rather look for something serious with somebody who knew nothing of their past.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2448411]Wow Bigbuddy69, we agree on this one LOL!

Girls usually hate guys who like have mental related session like true love feeling kind of session etc. They much prefer pure sexual session clients who pay for some fetish act like me with rimjob.[/QUOTE]Sorry to disappoint you but I don't think they like to taste your shit either.

[QUOTE]However, girls continue to go with these lovesick puppy clients because usually, these guys are the most returning and most paying clients in long run, but inside girls hate such clients the most because it is most complicated and also as you mentioned, they become like stalkers wanting to know her real name, where she lives etc.l.[/QUOTE]They keep going with them until they're fed up or really uncomfortable with all this servile fascination shit (or they meet other dudes who guarantee them the same income without all this mess). Then the guy goes crying all over about this imaginary break-up and how she destroyed her own image.

[QUOTE=BigBuddy69;2448487]Because the virus spread really fast in France. Wearing a mask was not encouraged until recently. Mostly because there were no stocks actually. Lots of people thought it was just a big flu and didn't change their habits until the lockdown.[/QUOTE]I think Medical level of France and Italy are same or at least in same range with any G7 nations or some other nation like Switzerland etc, but I think destruction of hospital system lead to many death. How that happened is not the fault of hospitals, but I would say more the fault of government not putting restriction on admission to hospitals among other reasons that are not fault of hospitals entirely.

As for people walking around. For instance, Japan cannot do full lock down like in Europe or USA because we do not have law to force people, so government just asked citizens to stay home, which many people did because we are quite disciplined, but obviously there are some who did not stay home and kept on living normal life style including commuting train. However, death rates were kept down. The reason for this is that there are some speculation about BCG vaccines, when you born in Japan and few other nations in the world, babies are oblige to take BCG vaccines, and there is speculation around saying this BCG vaccines may have prevent people from getting infected easily or symptom shifting from mild to heavy.

It is crazy era we get to experience, who would have thought we will experience something like this except in some Hollywood panic movie.

Avigan and one more corona medicine from USA works on mild symptoms, and they are about to be approved fully and dispatched, so let hope it will help to decrease death a little bit.

[QUOTE=BigBuddy69;2448527]Sorry to disappoint you but I don't think they like to taste your shit either.

They keep going with them until they're fed up or really uncomfortable with all this servile fascination shit (or they meet other dudes who guarantee them the same income without all this mess). Then the guy goes crying all over about this imaginary break-up and how she destroyed her own image.[/QUOTE]Who does like to lick anal for money, I know that, they are not Toto toilet.

However, it is demand and supply, I have my demand and they supply based on consensus. I know that.

But these guys who are in infatuation with FKK girls tend to think only they get the service from FKK girls and think they are special based on the lies FKK girls tell them and it can be dangerous situation both for FKK girls and such guys.

I go to FKK purely for lust and sex. But there are guys who go to FKK to fulfill things that are missing in their lives, like love relationship they lost or loneliness or need of life partner, girls capitalize on that, but sometimes these things goes out of control and lead to some tragic event like murder of FKK girls. I hear two events like that happened in past 10 years and I am sure there are more.

It is mild mental sickness that can lead to serious outcome.

I even know some case where client do not like other client because he go with the FKK girl he likes. , when I heard that I thought, these guys should see what kind of rimjob sessions I do in room in acrobatic position LOL!

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2448507]I hate dirty things, I was used to princess types, meaning elegant with good manners, in real life, I learned sex with princesses, not with porn or prostitutes, I know only this way for sex and I don't need to change, best sex for me is the closest to my past real life.[/QUOTE]Me too, but I cannot do somethings I do in FKK to normal girls because they could talk, but in FKK, it is no string attached, so I fulfill my dirty lust with most beautiful girls, including some of your princesses as it is FKK and free to fuck any girls inside how we want based on consensus.

So you fuck her princess princess style and I fuck her dirty like pierre woodman style, so it is like porn, you are princess type actor and I am woodman style actor LOL! We both are porn actors in FKK with diffrent style who pays LOL!

[QUOTE=TheCane;2448520]Many, many prostitutes have told me something similar, but leading to a solidly different conclusion. That they did not want any long term ties to a client because he would always see her as a prostitute, and that if they got into an argument, the guy would use it against her. One told me that she was even concerned that she might be called a puta in front of the kids. So, they would rather look for something serious with somebody who knew nothing of their past.[/QUOTE]But senpai cane. They are prostitute and puta LOL!

Honesty is very important in relationship LOL!

Puta prostitutesky LOL!

[QUOTE=TheCane;2448520]Many, many prostitutes have told me something similar, but leading to a solidly different conclusion. That they did not want any long term ties to a client because he would always see her as a prostitute, and that if they got into an argument, the guy would use it against her. One told me that she was even concerned that she might be called a puta in front of the kids. So, they would rather look for something serious with somebody who knew nothing of their past.[/QUOTE]Using that logic a guy should not want to marry a girl he met in an FKK cause she might call him a monger in front of the kids.

[QUOTE=Turgid;2448686]Using that logic a guy should not want to marry a girl he met in an FKK cause she might call him a monger in front of the kids.[/QUOTE]And I don't think "bad" or "faulty" logic either. It's simply the other side of the coin. We're all so conditioned to look at it from jut the point of the women. But what about the men? I think the same sort of concern is there for men, but expressed differently. A prostitute may not want "something more" with a client because she feels she would never be able to bury her past. And a client may not want "something more" with a prostitute because "that's not the kind of girl you bring home to your family", and if you do, that says as much about you as a man as it does about the girl. You'll never be able to live it down among your family and friends. That you knowingly consorted with prostitutes, and married one. She can't escape that past, and neither can the man, who might want to move on as well. Two sides of the same coin. I'm not saying that this is always going to be an issue or the actual outcome of such marriages, but we know it's nothing far-fetched at all. We all understand the societal judgments and pressure around prostitution. But what if the man didn't know she had been a prostitute, or if she didn't know he had been a monger, and they found out in detail only after the marriage? Now to me, this is a far more interesting situation. You thought you married the sweetest, most innocent girl in the world, but then come to find out she was taking multiple cum shots to the lips 5 to 6 days a week LOL! Now what you going to do LOLOLOL!

[QUOTE=Turgid;2448686]Using that logic a guy should not want to marry a girl he met in an FKK cause she might call him a monger in front of the kids.[/QUOTE]Normally grown-ups should realize that they're not going in a FKK to find a wife.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2448643]Me too, but I cannot do somethings I do in FKK to normal girls because they could talk, but in FKK, it is no string attached, so I fulfill my dirty lust with most beautiful girls, including some of your princesses as it is FKK and free to fuck any girls inside how we want based on consensus.

So you fuck her princess princess style and I fuck her dirty like pierre woodman style, so it is like porn, you are princess type actor and I am woodman style actor LOL! We both are porn actors in FKK with diffrent style who pays LOL![/QUOTE]I'm I think more than double size for length and thickness than ridiculous wini wini old dog, french porn actor, fat Woodman, so I don't need with girls, when brothels girls ask me to be careful with them and they know how I behave with them. I don't need to free my frustration with prostitutes, because I don't have sexual frustration from my real life girlfriends, I just pay for only mind pleasure, I don't ask for love, I don't beg anything, I just enjoy love sex, not just emptying balls, my best pleasure is what they can do for behavior for me, coming to me, always choosing me first like I experienced at GT, World, Sharks, Oase, 3 girls at LR, Globe, delaying bigger money. I don't know when German brothels will reopen, maybe Austria on beginning of July, but I m 100% sure when I will go, if I succeed to find a attractive beauty with good manners, the most difficult for me, then like in any club, after time to adapt to each other, I will become like each time her first choice and even locals will have to wait, like Germans at LR or Sharks. Real facts, some here witnessed.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2448412]How the hell with best medical level or medical system can have 30000 deaths, it is not, look at the fact.[/QUOTE]From your island, you don't understand about how virus is working. In Europe, UK have highest deaths. In the world, most powerful country, US, have highest deaths, when poor African countries who have so high medical level compare to US, UK, France, Italy and Spain, may have lower deaths than Germany. Try to find how really work this virus and also about Japanese Kawasaki syndrome for Western Europe children. Ask doctors why these surprising fortunate figures in poor Africa, much less under US foods, with much less fat, diabetics, hypertension and not so old population because of other diseases. Unfortunately, in France, like in US and UK, we have more and more fat, obese, diabetics, heart in prison in fat, and they are not Sumos. I wonder how Sumos would resist to virus infection.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2448766]From your island, you don't understand about how virus is working. In Europe, UK have highest deaths. In the world, most powerful country, US, have highest deaths, when poor African countries who have so high medical level compare to US, UK, France, Italy and Spain, may have lower deaths than Germany. Try to find how really work this virus and also about Japanese Kawasaki syndrome for Western Europe children. Ask doctors why these surprising fortunate figures in poor Africa, much less under US foods, with much less fat, diabetics, hypertension and not so old population because of other diseases. Unfortunately, in France, like in US and UK, we have more and more fat, obese, diabetics, heart in prison in fat, and they are not Sumos. I wonder how Sumos would resist to virus infection.[/QUOTE]As for European death rates, it is lack of organization and not so much the fault of hospitals beside they failed to keep the bed open, but you don't have treatment for this like Avigan, which even in Japan we do not use on everybody because we cannot because numbers are still limited and are in production now. It is getting fully approved this month and first batch will be dispatched to world and to also to all Japanese hospitals. Till now, ministry of health decide who get avigan or not and had to sign clinical trial contract before, but avigan was working good on mild symptom patients with in 6 weeks of infections.

It is not because of just fat obese people they are dying, it is lack of government failed to save medical system and also your life style that is not hygiene enough and also your behavior of do not listen to the fact, masks are good example.

And hey, France had this virus since December by the way. We has it from January, but France did not even realize this virus till like March. So do the math. It is actually Europe who had it before Japan. And I was in Europe in Jan and Feb so I was lucky LOL.

Plus hey, Kawasaki syndrome is disease found by Dr Kawasaki, so it is not like we give to France, you guys got it yourself. Thank Dr Kawasaki for finding disease for you because it is curable.

However, as for corona virus, let see if vaccines will be invented soon. Avigan and other medicine for ebora by USA is just a counter strategy and it is not vaccines for it, but it works.

I disagree that Africa has better medical care than USA. I think USA is better in medical and technology field than most European nations and more than France this is face. Also Japan too, only nation that can compete with Japan in Europe is Germany. And USA is bigger than Japan. USA is number one nation no matter what others may think, this is the fact. Death per population is most important figure, USA is big country.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2448755]I'm I think more than double size for length and thickness than ridiculous wini wini old dog, french porn actor, fat Woodman, so I don't need with girls, when brothels girls ask me to be careful with them and they know how I behave with them. I don't need to free my frustration with prostitutes, because I don't have sexual frustration from my real life girlfriends, I just pay for only mind pleasure, I don't ask for love, I don't beg anything, I just enjoy love sex, not just emptying balls, my best pleasure is what they can do for behavior for me, coming to me, always choosing me first like I experienced at GT, World, Sharks, Oase, 3 girls at LR, Globe, delaying bigger money. I don't know when German brothels will reopen, maybe Austria on beginning of July, but I m 100% sure when I will go, if I succeed to find a attractive beauty with good manners, the most difficult for me, then like in any club, after time to adapt to each other, I will become like each time her first choice and even locals will have to wait, like Germans at LR or Sharks. Real facts, some here witnessed.[/QUOTE]I don't think woodman has frustration with real time girl friend LOL, it is just his fetish and style to fuck like that. I am sure he has romantic sex now and then too without calling girls chien and spank them LOL!

Just like in P6 activities, in medical communities money motivates. I write this without evidence or first hand knowledge, so I will be careful with wording and punctuation. Is it true that in the US a hospital gets paid over 56 times more if a patients cause of death is ruled to be from COVID-19 rather than the flu? If the numbers are $17000 compared to $300 could this possibly motivate hospitals to find more COVID-19 deaths?

I'm not saying see-19 isn't out there and killing people. I also believe lifestyle and discipline lead to the propagation of see-19 in the US. Some segments of our nation don't take it seriously or maybe they do but their actions seem to indicate otherwise. Our social system is not set up to continuously pay 70% of the nation near full wages when not working. I expect the architects of the system never imagined such a scenario. Yes, unfortunately, it seems the many of the essential jobs are filled by the poorer populace who can't afford to miss work.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2448755]I'm I think more than double size for length and thickness than ridiculous wini wini old dog, french porn actor, fat Woodman, so I don't need with girls, when brothels girls ask me to be careful with them and they know how I behave with them. I don't need to free my frustration with prostitutes, because I don't have sexual frustration from my real life girlfriends, I just pay for only mind pleasure, I don't ask for love, I don't beg anything, I just enjoy love sex, not just emptying balls, my best pleasure is what they can do for behavior for me, coming to me, always choosing me first like I experienced at GT, World, Sharks, Oase, 3 girls at LR, Globe, delaying bigger money. I don't know when German brothels will reopen, maybe Austria on beginning of July, but I m 100% sure when I will go, if I succeed to find a attractive beauty with good manners, the most difficult for me, then like in any club, after time to adapt to each other, I will become like each time her first choice and even locals will have to wait, like Germans at LR or Sharks. Real facts, some here witnessed.[/QUOTE]I would add, when everybody except girls who experienced me know I'm a bad french guy, I remember my LR Eve telling me: You are my french man, so I told her: but you had others and even before me, so she answered: You are my only french man, then she wanted to put my hair in Romanian fashion style, meaning up on the head, I did hate this, I don't know why all girls want to touch my hair, when some say: don't touch my hair, but if french Woodman can be a model for way for sex for some, fortunately only porn comedy, because he is just a shame for french men, for me, for his image and sexual violent behavior. I'm not a specialist in porn, but I m surprised nobody thought to make a movie showing to men how to make love to a woman, then men should learn how to take care of a woman, then wife won t refuse boring sex as they say, having headache, my 2 last girlfriends were married before me and refused to have sex with their husband, as they said: they were only mother, I remember ex husbands faces when seeing ex wife full smiling with me, feeling woman, taking care of their look to be the prettiest for me as they said, last asking me to go with her to buy shoes, dresses, lingerie, not to pay but to choose, when sometimes I would have preferred to watch sports, but at least girls who sold laughed when seeing us choosing lingerie, for sure they shouldn't see many couples like us. Then, in this time and even without virus, married men could have wife asking for pleasure. I learned in my life women don t ask often for sex except when they want a baby, but they ask often for pleasure when they tasted and they can even become exhausting, so, no need to go to brothels, when girls tell me: many are married and look at me like a martian when I tell them: If I have a girlfriend, I will stay with her, I will build for her, then I don't need you anymore. Most of guys should think about deserving their wife, they didn't buy her with a ring and wedding. I always thought more value without, when we are free to leave when we want.

[QUOTE=TheCane;2448690]Now what you going to do LOLOLOL![/QUOTE]Never accept her "no" answer when I ask to cum in her mouth.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2448803]As for European death rates, it is lack of organization and not so much the fault of hospitals beside they failed to keep the bed open, but you don't have treatment for this like Avigan, which even in Japan we do not use on everybody because we cannot because numbers are still limited and are in production now. It is getting fully approved this month and first batch will be dispatched to world and to also to all Japanese hospitals. Till now, ministry of health decide who get avigan or not and had to sign clinical trial contract before, but avigan was working good on mild symptom patients with in 6 weeks of infections.

It is not because of just fat obese people they are dying, it is lack of government failed to save medical system and also your life style that is not hygiene enough and also your behavior of do not listen to the fact, masks are good example.

And hey, France had this virus since December by the way. We has it from January, but France did not even realize this virus till like March. So do the math. It is actually Europe who had it before Japan. And I was in Europe in Jan and Feb so I was lucky LOL.

Plus hey, Kawasaki syndrome is disease found by Dr Kawasaki, so it is not like we give to France, you guys got it yourself. Thank Dr Kawasaki for finding disease for you because it is curable.

However, as for corona virus, let see if vaccines will be invented soon. Avigan and other medicine for ebora by USA is just a counter strategy and it is not vaccines for it, but it works.

I disagree that Africa has better medical care than USA. I think USA is better in medical and technology field than most European nations and more than France this is face. Also Japan too, only nation that can compete with Japan in Europe is Germany. And USA is bigger than Japan. USA is number one nation no matter what others may think, this is the fact. Death per population is most important figure, USA is big country.[/QUOTE]You really don't understand words meanings and ironic. US figures, not mine, are at least 135.000 deaths on Summer and they don't even know about many poor and illegals. Does it mean they are lower medical level than Africa, of course not. There must be a reason when both don't respect confined, just impossible in Africa. Also 30 millions more unemployed in US, more than 10 millions more in France.

Seem spreading started on October, after military sport competition in Wuhan, but at this time, nobody knew what it was.

[QUOTE=Chongmal;2448916]Never accept her "no" answer when I ask to cum in her mouth.[/QUOTE]Hahaha! Either it's CIM or I want a divorce LOL!

This interesting and genuinely informative and valuable guide on this issue comes from a country which was traditionally to sexual freedom what North Korea is to human rights (My own nation. Ireland).

[URL]https://www.sexualhealthcentre.com/news/2020/4/9/the-sexual-health-centre-launches-safety-guide-for-sex-workers-during-covid-19[/URL]

TBH given such restrictions, I think I will wait until things calm down!

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2448899]I would add, when everybody except girls who experienced me know I'm a bad french guy, I remember my LR Eve telling me: You are my french man, so I told her: but you had others and even before me, so she answered: You are my only french man, then she wanted to put my hair in Romanian fashion style, meaning up on the head, I did hate this, I don't know why all girls want to touch my hair, when some say: don't touch my hair, but if french Woodman can be a model for way for sex for some, fortunately only porn comedy, because he is just a shame for french men, for me, for his image and sexual violent behavior. I'm not a specialist in porn, but I m surprised nobody thought to make a movie showing to men how to make love to a woman, then men should learn how to take care of a woman, then wife won t refuse boring sex as they say, having headache, my 2 last girlfriends were married before me and refused to have sex with their husband, as they said: they were only mother, I remember ex husbands faces when seeing ex wife full smiling with me, feeling woman, taking care of their look to be the prettiest for me as they said, last asking me to go with her to buy shoes, dresses, lingerie, not to pay but to choose, when sometimes I would have preferred to watch sports, but at least girls who sold laughed when seeing us choosing lingerie, for sure they shouldn't see many couples like us. Then, in this time and even without virus, married men could have wife asking for pleasure. I learned in my life women don t ask often for sex except when they want a baby, but they ask often for pleasure when they tasted and they can even become exhausting, so, no need to go to brothels, when girls tell me: many are married and look at me like a martian when I tell them: If I have a girlfriend, I will stay with her, I will build for her, then I don't need you anymore. Most of guys should think about deserving their wife, they didn't buy her with a ring and wedding. I always thought more value without, when we are free to leave when we want.[/QUOTE]You are one of very few who actually believe what prostitutes says to you in brothel LOL!

[QUOTE=MrHo;2448803]As for European death rates, it is lack of organization and not so much the fault of hospitals beside they failed to keep the bed open, but you don't have treatment for this like Avigan, which even in Japan we do not use on everybody because we cannot because numbers are still limited and are in production now. It is getting fully approved this month and first batch will be dispatched to world and to also to all Japanese hospitals. Till now, ministry of health decide who get avigan or not and had to sign clinical trial contract before, but avigan was working good on mild symptom patients with in 6 weeks of infections.

It is not because of just fat obese people they are dying, it is lack of government failed to save medical system and also your life style that is not hygiene enough and also your behavior of do not listen to the fact, masks are good example.

And hey, France had this virus since December by the way. We has it from January, but France did not even realize this virus till like March. So do the math. It is actually Europe who had it before Japan. And I was in Europe in Jan and Feb so I was lucky LOL.[/QUOTE]It is very complex to understand why some countries or even regions are hit so badly. Wearing masks, keeping social distancing seems to be the key drivers for success. What happen in France, Italy, Spain is just showing how weak those countries are becoming in protecting their citizens. East part of Germany is far less impacted (except Berlin) than Bayern, NRW. But when you look at a big city like Bremen the number of cases is very low, why. Overall the cities are much more impacted than the country side, also very true in the US. Why Greece which is in a bad economical situation for decades, whit a very old population, a weak health care system is so successful to fight covid 19, difficult for the moment to answer. For me, this disease is just having terrible consequences for most of us and we will have to pay for all the QE.

[QUOTE=Chongmal;2448841]Just like in P6 activities, in medical communities money motivates. I write this without evidence or first hand knowledge, so I will be careful with wording and punctuation. Is it true that in the US a hospital gets paid over 56 times more if a patients cause of death is ruled to be from COVID-19 rather than the flu? If the numbers are $17000 compared to $300 could this possibly motivate hospitals to find more COVID-19 deaths?..............[/QUOTE]This can be easily verified by comparing deaths from other illnesses to those during a similar period last year.

[QUOTE=Chongmal;2448841]Just like in P6 activities, in medical communities money motivates. I write this without evidence or first hand knowledge, so I will be careful with wording and punctuation. Is it true that in the US a hospital gets paid over 56 times more if a patients cause of death is ruled to be from COVID-19 rather than the flu? If the numbers are $17000 compared to $300 could this possibly motivate hospitals to find more COVID-19 deaths?.[/QUOTE]A patient is diagnosed as having Covid or not based on testing, and that happens much earlier than death itself. It is not as if a patient is coming into a hospital, he tested negative for Corona, the patient dies, and then the hospital changes the cause of death from flu or whatever to Corona. That would be illegal and it is not happening, and it is just another fake story / rumor.

Hospitals get paid based on services rendered, and codes that get attached to it. If a patient is put on a ventilator, there is a DRG code for such a service and gets billed accordingly. Whether a patient has Covid or something else and has to be given a ventilator, then it is true that a ventilator was provided and accordingly hospital will charge for such a service rendered.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2449032]You are one of very few who actually believe what prostitutes says to you in brothel LOL![/QUOTE]No, I don't believe much words in FKK land of lies, but I only believe what I see and experience, much more reliable for me. But you have to understand we experience from what we are and our behavior. I don't think Romanian beauties, others don't interest me.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2449211]No, I don't believe much words in FKK land of lies, but I only believe what I see and experience, much more reliable for me. But you have to understand we experience from what we are and our behavior. I don't think Romanian beauties, others don't interest me.[/QUOTE]Well romanians are everywhere and easy to find and very easy to get good service out of them for cheaper cost than germans, but they lie the most even their nationalities, so watch out because you tend to be so much into the stories they tell you LOL! Don't be naive in FKK, it is not right place to talk, it is place to fuck LOL!

[QUOTE=ExpatLover;2449063]It is very complex to understand why some countries or even regions are hit so badly. Wearing masks, keeping social distancing seems to be the key drivers for success. What happen in France, Italy, Spain is just showing how weak those countries are becoming in protecting their citizens. East part of Germany is far less impacted (except Berlin) than Bayern, NRW. But when you look at a big city like Bremen the number of cases is very low, why. Overall the cities are much more impacted than the country side, also very true in the US. Why Greece which is in a bad economical situation for decades, whit a very old population, a weak health care system is so successful to fight covid 19, difficult for the moment to answer. For me, this disease is just having terrible consequences for most of us and we will have to pay for all the QE.[/QUOTE]Right, France, Italy and Spain are weak countries and they have been for long time now. But they don't even notice this due to false pride and not knowing the world. So it maybe this corona virus thing was good lesson for them given by superior power China.

France, Spain and Italy used to be strong nations, but they are even on the edge of getting kicked out of G7 nations by economical figures, but they are more trust worthy than China, so they are given chance to stay in G7 and even though China is much stronger than France, Italy and Spain, China is out of G7 due to their credibility, unfortunately China cannot be trusted yet.

[QUOTE=WildMan;2449018]This interesting and genuinely informative and valuable guide on this issue comes from a country which was traditionally to sexual freedom what North Korea is to human rights (My own nation. Ireland).

[URL]https://www.sexualhealthcentre.com/news/2020/4/9/the-sexual-health-centre-launches-safety-guide-for-sex-workers-during-covid-19[/URL]

TBH given such restrictions, I think I will wait until things calm down![/QUOTE]There is no safe sex during covid 19, if you are monger and going to monger, then just go hard, fuck Romanian prostitutes like a pride Pierre woodman LOL!

[QUOTE=Chongmal;2448841]Just like in P6 activities, in medical communities money motivates. I write this without evidence or first hand knowledge, so I will be careful with wording and punctuation. Is it true that in the US a hospital gets paid over 56 times more if a patients cause of death is ruled to be from COVID-19 rather than the flu? If the numbers are $17000 compared to $300 could this possibly motivate hospitals to find more COVID-19 deaths?[/QUOTE]Sounds like death is a booming business. Can't think why we don't have more of it. Highly underrated, death. One of the few growth sectors in the economy in these otherwise dark days.

[URL]https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/04/24/fact-check-medicare-hospitals-paid-more-covid-19-patients-coronavirus/3000638001/[/URL]

[I]"if it's a straightforward, garden-variety pneumonia that a person is admitted to the hospital for if they're Medicare typically, the diagnosis-related group lump sum payment would be $5,000. But if it's COVID-19 pneumonia, then it's $13,000, and if that COVID-19 pneumonia patient ends up on a ventilator, it goes up to $39,000."[/I]

The US Healthcare System is a Black Comedy that pretty much writes itself without any help from me. I would trust the data coming out of there about as much as the carvings of the Bushmen of Wagga Wagga Land.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2449269]Sounds like death is a booming business. Can't think why we don't have more of it. Highly underrated, death. One of the few growth sectors in the economy in these otherwise dark days.

[URL]https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/04/24/fact-check-medicare-hospitals-paid-more-covid-19-patients-coronavirus/3000638001/[/URL]

[I]"if it's a straightforward, garden-variety pneumonia that a person is admitted to the hospital for if they're Medicare typically, the diagnosis-related group lump sum payment would be $5,000. But if it's COVID-19 pneumonia, then it's $13,000, and if that COVID-19 pneumonia patient ends up on a ventilator, it goes up to $39,000."[/I]

The US Healthcare System is a Black Comedy that pretty much writes itself without any help from me. I would trust the data coming out of there about as much as the carvings of the Bushmen of Wagga Wagga Land.[/QUOTE]Not saying that US healthcare system or our reimbursement and pricing models are perfect. But the article sources a broadcast network and a specific person with a political angle and an ax to grind. Our payment and reimbursement is a complicated system and not something that can be summed up in a few simple sentences on a sex forum. Europeans are mostly on a state paid system and don't have to deal with these things, and if you feel that works for you, it's great. I have to say though, I have observed that you personally seem to have some sort of anti US bias due to whatever reason, perhaps some past slight you suffered? And you do take a few potshots at the US and our systems and ways whenever the opportunity presents (or sometimes you go out of the way to create that opportunity). Considering that you hide you identity very guardedly (although BFsie one time said you live in DE) I don't see how this increases any credibility if you want to take these anonymous cheap shots at a country that does not seem to be your native land. Most of us are deferential to other countries and their peoples as that seems to be right thing to do on an international forum as ISG. However, feel free to continue your ways. Shalom.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2448970]Seem spreading started on October, after military sport competition in Wuhan, but at this time, nobody knew what it was.[/QUOTE]Quite right. There was a first wave which started in November in Western Europe and went unnoticed till end of January. There is already one retrospective confirmed case form a patient who died end of December. . If there are enough blood samples kept from patients hospitalized end of 2019 from "bizarre" pneumonia, we will find many more cases.

The conclusion is that we are now at the end of a "second wave". Should we fear a third wave after end of lock down? I don't believe so.

Yahoo news:

"A new study from Chinese scientists found coronavirus particles in the semen of 16% of the male patients studied.

The virus was present in semen from both patients who had active infections and those who had recovered.

The researchers aren't sure yet whether the virus can be spread through sexual contact. ".

[QUOTE=TheCane;2447860]All I know is it's time to eat! It's dinner time everybody! Yum, yum! Hahahahaha! Call me many things, but don't call me late for dinner LOL![/QUOTE][NOPARSE]
I'm afraid Batman has become too much of a cliche. I am more drawn to the sad but touching stories of Dr. Michael Morbius, Ph.D, and Professor "Bat-woman" Zhengli.
[/NOPARSE]

[QUOTE=Dreams;2449349]Quite right. There was a first wave which started in November in Western Europe and went unnoticed till end of January. There is already one retrospective confirmed case form a patient who died end of December. . If there are enough blood samples kept from patients hospitalized end of 2019 from "bizarre" pneumonia, we will find many more cases.

The conclusion is that we are now at the end of a "second wave". Should we fear a third wave after end of lock down? I don't believe so.[/QUOTE]But only few were infected, about 6% in France, and recovering is not full immunity, when more and more obese, diabetics, with lungs or heart problems, who are at risk. Just after end of confined, German R0 increased, but they controlled below 1. With sun, people want now to go to the beach which will become full crowded, when not many swim.

[QUOTE=Dreams;2449349]Quite right. There was a first wave which started in November in Western Europe and went unnoticed till end of January. There is already one retrospective confirmed case form a patient who died end of December. . If there are enough blood samples kept from patients hospitalized end of 2019 from "bizarre" pneumonia, we will find many more cases.

The conclusion is that we are now at the end of a "second wave". Should we fear a third wave after end of lock down? I don't believe so.[/QUOTE]This is one of the most interesting things I've read about the coronavirus.

I entered Brazil in late October last year. I developed a cough which got worse from 1st November. For two weeks I had the worst bout of coughing I've ever had in my life which I treated with doctor prescribed medication. The coughing always got worst when I lay down at nights and was so bad that I could not sleep many nights. It lasted two weeks after which I had some respiratory problems. I have a friend who had the exact same experience back home around the same time. Makes me wonder.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2449211]No, I don't believe much words in FKK land of lies, but I only believe what I see and experience, much more reliable for me. But you have to understand we experience from what we are and our behavior. I don't think Romanian beauties, others don't interest me.[/QUOTE]You do believe in what Romanian prostitutes tells and shows you though LOL. It is all fake, it is called prostitution LOL!

[QUOTE=Dreams;2449349]Quite right. There was a first wave which started in November in Western Europe and went unnoticed till end of January. There is already one retrospective confirmed case form a patient who died end of December. . If there are enough blood samples kept from patients hospitalized end of 2019 from "bizarre" pneumonia, we will find many more cases.

The conclusion is that we are now at the end of a "second wave". Should we fear a third wave after end of lock down? I don't believe so.[/QUOTE]It began in France according and they could not even noticed it LOL!

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2449458]But only few were infected, about 6% in France, and recovering is not full immunity, when more and more obese, diabetics, with lungs or heart problems, who are at risk. Just after end of confined, German R0 increased, but they controlled below 1. With sun, people want now to go to the beach which will become full crowded, when not many swim.[/QUOTE]France just messed up as you can see with crazy death rates and France had corona since last December and failed to even noticed they had corona virus. Death rates has little to do with fat people etc. Not all French people are fat LOL.

France did it to themselves.

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2449281] I don't see how this increases any credibility if you want to take these anonymous cheap shots at a country that does not seem to be your native land. [/QUOTE]I will step in since my question lead to the response you responded to. As an American, currently living in the US after nearly 2 decades living in Europe, the US healthcare system confuses me. I recently saw a doctor for a partially torn muscle in my bicep. Five minutes, they didn't even take my blood pressure. I received the bill, $256, to be told to cut back 50% on my lifting for two weeks. My health insurance doesn't cover anything yet because I haven't spent $7 k on medical this year. Oh, and I will spend $6 k out of my pocket for insurance. In the area of the US where I live the average income is less than $25 k annually. For that average group to have to potentially pay over 50% of their income on medical expenses in a year is criminal. Let's imagine they say, I'm skipping insurance because I can use that $6 k. Well, the insurance companies have negotiated rates that are less than those who don't have insurance are charged. So if you can't afford insurance the medical providers take more of your money than if you could afford the insurance.

By contrast, in Europe, my standard medical visit, which my torn bicep would fall into this category, had a charge of €28.50. In my case, I had to pay and submit the claim and 90% was returned to me by the insurance. There was no difference in price charged to someone with insurance or someone without. Part of the socialized medicine from those countries was lower medical rates. Another part is limits on awards in lawsuits. Europeans can graduate from medical school nearly debt free because university is almost free. Students have to pay for food, a place to stay and books. Many medical students serve in the social medicine sector in return for a 100% payment of their education. Brilliant people from poor families still have a chance for higher education. I feel the government regulated prices, limited lawsuit awards and affordable education result in much more effective medical systems for the entire populace of nation that participate like this.

[QUOTE=Akibono;2449492]What might make a difference is an hour test. You could be tested before or after you fly and if you are clean, you get to enter the country. Of course, you will pay for the test. I would gladly do that to gain entry.[/QUOTE]A quick test could be a way for FKK to open, everyone gets tested before they go in. I feel it would have to be quicker than an hour though.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2449498]It began in France according and they could not even noticed it LOL![/QUOTE]Like for sex, you are so impressive knowing better than doctors, when so many foreigners come to be cured and I and French who work, not many at the moment, pay for.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2449480]You do believe in what Romanian prostitutes tells and shows you though LOL. It is all fake, it is called prostitution LOL![/QUOTE]In brothels, I only believe in what I see or experience, when my best FKK girl, Romanian looking like a woman of course, was queen of lies and gossiping, the best and she improved so much, to follow me for my way in bed, but her lies and new image made her not anymore desirable for me as I told her, not anymore chic enough for my taste when I chose her for her manners when she started and she really impressed me on some times until mid March 2017 or when I returned to her on September when she needed less than 3 hours to reorganize as before. On Thursday, after sex, Russian from Moscow, not Romanian, Olga behave exactly like Romanians, she could tell me: condom is full, bye, see You, but not at all, I know she discovered with her round big eyes and she also showed me about her private, gave me Russian private to meet without management, after only 1 hour with a guy she doesn't know, when Paris is not so safe for escorts, unfortunately many were attacked, robbed and never returned and I had to drive to Milano for Tatar wow Zoya, I remember on ice on top of Gran San Bernardino when they closed on that mid October night, but maybe because she saw her little female dog so in love with me, maybe on next time she will propose me to try the dog, or maybe like many FKK, mostly Romanian, beauties, she just felt safe, from my manners and respect for women. She is different profile of escort, not on tour, but living in Paris for modeling and photos shooting and instagram, closer to normal woman and she didn't seem to have busy sex, so fresh and tight, a pretty Russian doll, but with exactly same behavior with me than Romanians. It must be my face to inspire trust, when I had many Russian girls for nights in not safe Paris and even a magic night in Peter for 400 USD. Also same behavior on my few visits in Catalunya with Ukrainian or Belarus Katya showing me her private, when Russians seen were not pretty enough, not on Olga look level.

This is for all those sceptics that think you cannot do sex in those masks.

I have no financial interest in any of those companies. But thought this could be of interest. I purchased one of those. I colleague from Singapore has one and reports they can even do running with them. Very cool.

[URL]https://www.airplus-family.com/products/family/[/URL]

[URL]https://koolmask.com[/URL]

[URL]https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/next-gen-filtration-mask-with-botanicals[/URL]#.

[QUOTE=Kuni042;2449588]This is for all those sceptics that think you cannot do sex in those masks.

I have no financial interest in any of those companies. But thought this could be of interest. I purchased one of those. I colleague from Singapore has one and reports they can even do running with them. Very cool.

[URL]https://www.airplus-family.com/products/family/[/URL]

[URL]https://koolmask.com[/URL]

[URL]https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/next-gen-filtration-mask-with-botanicals[/URL]#.[/QUOTE]I would use one of those when I'm doing a girl from behind and her ass stinks. Especially the mask in the last link which had eucalyptus scent!

After research, I just bought a couple of those atmoblues.

[URL]https://atmoblue.com/index.html[/URL]

It maybe too good to be true, but this is better than FFP3 - and easier to wear. The product will cost about 4 normal 30 m sessions at GT, Sharks, or so. Since I skipped a few dozen, I had the extra money.

[QUOTE=Kuni042;2449588]This is for all those sceptics that think you cannot do sex in those masks.

I have no financial interest in any of those companies. But thought this could be of interest. I purchased one of those. I colleague from Singapore has one and reports they can even do running with them. Very cool.

[URL]https://www.airplus-family.com/products/family/[/URL]

[URL]https://koolmask.com[/URL]

[URL]https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/next-gen-filtration-mask-with-botanicals[/URL]#.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Kuni042;2449601]After research, I just bought a couple of those atmoblues.

[URL]https://atmoblue.com/index.html[/URL]

It maybe too good to be true, but this is better than FFP3 - and easier to wear. The product will cost about 4 normal 30 m sessions at GT, Sharks, or so. Since I skipped a few dozen, I had the extra money.[/QUOTE]So you will look like the bastard son of Darth Vader and a dung fly.

[QUOTE=Kuni042;2449601]After research, I just bought a couple of those atmoblues.

[URL]https://atmoblue.com/index.html[/URL]

It maybe too good to be true, but this is better than FFP3 - and easier to wear. The product will cost about 4 normal 30 m sessions at GT, Sharks, or so. Since I skipped a few dozen, I had the extra money.[/QUOTE]Are you serious? Can you enjoy sex like this? Or is it to swim at the bottom of sea. No mask nor gloves, condom because I asked her, with my Russian model escort, or I stay in my bed.

[QUOTE=Saturn11;2449537]A quick test could be a way for FKK to open, everyone gets tested before they go in. I feel it would have to be quicker than an hour though.[/QUOTE]A test at the airport upon entrance into a country would make more sense as well. Presenting a test result at immigration makes no sense as the visitor could have gotten infected after the test.

[QUOTE=Turgid;2449614]A test at the airport upon entrance into a country would make more sense as well. Presenting a test result at immigration makes no sense as the visitor could have gotten infected after the test.[/QUOTE]What is reliability for tests? Not high for those in nose.

[QUOTE=Kuni042;2449601]After research, I just bought a couple of those atmoblues.

[URL]https://atmoblue.com/index.html[/URL]

It maybe too good to be true, but this is better than FFP3 - and easier to wear. The product will cost about 4 normal 30 m sessions at GT, Sharks, or so. Since I skipped a few dozen, I had the extra money.[/QUOTE]The website says the HEPA filters in the mask are only good for 150 hours of use. If you can't replace the filters (and there is no mention of replacement filters on the website), what do you do with the mask other than throw it (and your $199) away?

[QUOTE=MrHo;2449517]France just messed up as you can see with crazy death rates and France had corona since last December and failed to even noticed they had corona virus. Death rates has little to do with fat people etc. Not all French people are fat LOL.

France did it to themselves.[/QUOTE]The Wuhan Coronavirus Lab was set up with the help of the French government. There were staff going back and forth between China and France. So it wouldn't surprise me if the first outbreak outside China was in France.

Yeah, everybody blames China for this, but let's not forget the role that France and the US had in funding this dangerous research. It was kind of like the way Apple outsourced its iPhone production to Foxconn in China, a place where safety and labor laws are lax. All the workers in China just follow authority blindly, no matter how bad things get.

The Wuhan Coronavirus Lab was set up by the French government. There were staff going back and forth between China and France. So it wouldn't surprise me if the first outbreak outside China was in France.

France like a lot of French guys are willing to give lessons to everybody even the entire world, what is France today? What is the last war they won, taking out 1st and 2nd world war which they just participate modestly to the victory which would never been possible without the allies. France is a extremely spited society, in high risk of bankruptcy like Italy. Who is listening to France, USA, Germany, China? France was powerful 200 years back at least today it is just a middle size country with a lot of challenges to deal with.

[QUOTE=Chongmal;2449530]I will step in since my question lead to the response you responded to. As an American, currently living in the US after nearly 2 decades living in Europe, the US healthcare system confuses me. I recently saw a doctor for a partially torn muscle in my bicep. Five minutes, they didn't even take my blood pressure. I received the bill, $256, to be told to cut back 50% on my lifting for two weeks. My health insurance doesn't cover anything yet because I haven't spent $7 k on medical this year. Oh, and I will spend $6 k out of my pocket for insurance. In the area of the US where I live the average income is less than $25 k annually. For that average group to have to potentially pay over 50% of their income on medical expenses in a year is criminal. Let's imagine they say, I'm skipping insurance because I can use that $6 k. Well, the insurance companies have negotiated rates that are less than those who don't have insurance are charged. So if you can't afford insurance the medical providers take more of your money than if you could afford the insurance.

By contrast, in Europe, my standard medical visit, which my torn bicep would fall into this category, had a charge of 28.50. In my case, I had to pay and submit the claim and 90% was returned to me by the insurance. [/QUOTE]Thanks for sharing your experience. I did respond to your prior comment related to DRG codes. I am not going to criticize or defend the US healthcare system which is indeed complex because we have a combination of payers (private insurance, CMS, Medicaid, exchanges involved, state regulations, health savings plans) and many other complications. If you want to effect change, you need to work inside the system. Anyone can criticize of course, but real change is hard to bring unless people work together and constructively. Entire elections hinge on discussions and changes in US healthcare systems, it is not as if we don't discuss these things internally.

But your situation is different from Polyamoritst's situation. His primary motive often appears to be take cheap shots at the US. See his most recent comment above for example where he makes a nonsensical, made up accusation that US and France funded the research behind Corona virus, and tied it to some incoherent rant about iPhone. When you also notice that he intentionally camouflages his own nationality in these pages and leads with the fake usage of Arab expressions (BFsie already said however that Polyamorist actually is a resident of DE, whether he is a citizen or not), such intentionally false accusations do nothing to promote a constructive and friendly exchange of info on an international site like ISG. Why would any person intentionally uses fake Arab persona, and incite a conflict between US, France, China in a place like this? What good comes out of it?

I would like to say for some guys here, France have nothing to do with my writings which are only my subjective opinions and most french on this forum or in clubs don't even agree with me, but in France, we have freedom culture, we can be communist and not persecuted, we don't hide figures when Olympics to come will give figures, to be sure about safety. In medias, France is told to have around 25000 deaths, but I wrote honestly we have unfortunately more than 30000, we know this in France, I fully agree for much too many, but at least we have explanations given and not much more than 2000 without known cause and under 70 yo, when Germany is not far from 6000 deaths. Belgium under confined is worst deaths rate, when Portugal and Greece with very average medical level, have better figures than in Germany. Many African countries have also better figures than Germany. At least in France, people and even foreigners have access to healthcare, even when not working, when poor in US don't go to hospital because they know they can't afford. Are these not real facts? When I m proud to be French, even I don't agree with economic politic, when I pay so high tax since so long, Yes, one of the biggest problem in France is highest rate of tax in the world which don't help our economy compare to China or Africa when we have much higher quality standard than most of countries in the world. If I need to be cured, I put infection in my blood when I was in Frankfurt, really difficult to drive back, I was not able to reach Paris but I fought to reach French border and I left french hospital on next day after peritonitis operation with belly cleaned with medical gaz to clean infection all over, I will never go to any other country. All french should thank our medical staff to take care of us, not only for virus. France have culture and many talents, reason why this small country is the number 1 in the world for tourism, and big loss for income on this year, same in Spain, Italy, Florida. One example for high level talents, when we have many famous artists, cookers, but when Porsche and Audi are highest level cars for me, only Ferrari and Lamborghini can compete but won't resist for same intense and long speed runs, but who build, only with hands, Bugatti which have no competitor, Ferrari or my beloved Porsche 911 turbo are far behind rockets faster than 420 km / h. I remember a NL telling me too many guys believe what I write, he is right, I don't aim to be a example, I m not, nor to have so many followers reading and repeating all what I write, I m not like my new Russian escort lovely beauty Olga, I m just proud to be different, and even paying, as a bad guy, but I would never dare to ask a girl to lick my ass, for my respect for women even prostitutes, and GT busy superstar Kate, or prettiest at Globe Megan know how I behave when they experienced both for more than 50 hours ith me. A bad guy but french Woodman is just a shameful image for men for me, I m much more impressed by Rocco Siffredi size and as I already wrote, only guys who would impress me would be those who have a woman who would say: my man makes me happy as a woman to be with him. This is what I call success to be a real man, not brothels.

[QUOTE=Chongmal;2449530]I will step in since my question lead to the response you responded to. As an American, currently living in the US after nearly 2 decades living in Europe, the US healthcare system confuses me. I recently saw a doctor for a partially torn muscle in my bicep. Five minutes, they didn't even take my blood pressure. I received the bill, $256, to be told to cut back 50% on my lifting for two weeks. My health insurance doesn't cover anything yet because I haven't spent $7 k on medical this year. Oh, and I will spend $6 k out of my pocket for insurance. In the area of the US where I live the average income is less than $25 k annually. For that average group to have to potentially pay over 50% of their income on medical expenses in a year is criminal. Let's imagine they say, I'm skipping insurance because I can use that $6 k. Well, the insurance companies have negotiated rates that are less than those who don't have insurance are charged. So if you can't afford insurance the medical providers take more of your money than if you could afford the insurance.[/QUOTE]BTW, anecdotal stories like this can vary over a large range. I have an employer paid insurance. Our co pays are a few bucks, our deductibles are pretty much nothing because my employer absorbs them, and I or my family members have been in hospital stays, even a few procedures which cost north of $100 grand and we paid nothing out of pocket. We walked right into the hospital when the need arose and no referral needed because we are on PPO choice plus plans, and we don't need to go through a primary care gate keeper. I know I Am lucky to have a good plan but so do millions of other Americans. For every tough experience, there are hundreds of good experiences as well.

As for medical school tuition, yes it costs money here but the payoff is amazing. I have several friends in the physician / surgical profession and some of them are making high six figure dollar amounts annually, wand quite a few have net worth north of $5 million (the ones who have been doing for 20-30 years and where both spouses are doctors are likely even worth $10 M). I doubt that sort of wealth can be created in Europe. Their taxes are high, take home pay is lower, per capita annual net income is significantly lower, and far fewer people have millions of net worth. Is it good or bad? Depends on who you ask. I think those discussions are beyond the scope of this site. What I don't like or care for is people hiding their own nationality (which is fine actually because this is an anonymous board), giving intentionally fake hints to suggest they are from somewhere else, and then taking cheap shots at other nations.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2449639]The Wuhan Coronavirus Lab was set up with the help of the French government. There were staff going back and forth between China and France. So it wouldn't surprise me if the first outbreak outside China was in France.

Yeah, everybody blames China for this, but let's not forget the role that France and the US had in funding this dangerous research. It was kind of like the way Apple outsourced its iPhone production to Foxconn in China, a place where safety and labor laws are lax. All the workers in China just follow authority blindly, no matter how bad things get.[/QUOTE]In my point of view it is naive to think this whole thing was not planned from the get go.

The corona virus pandemic has a whole series of intentions behind it, and I bet think tanks have been all over this idea for decades!

Lets see: Globalization measurements. New currency. Scapegoat for an already well underway financial crisis (see repo loan payouts since September, or even may last year). Depopulation agenda (every resource management in UN's agenda boils down to population numbers, and earth overshoot day in August tells me quite a bit on how much they, or even we ourselves, want it reduced by). New sets of martial laws to simplify governance.

Given how the world is already run by a future AI that traveled back in time, we really don't have anything to say. Because it already knows what we have said. That is why Big Brother is everywhere around us. It is the Super AI needing to monitor us. Then again, that AI is probably just a software within the Matrix software we are living in also. To simulate our response to it by an even more super AI. And most 'humans' are probably just non playable characters too. Besides, science even seems to prove this (the double slit experiment and the mathematically more logical holographic universe theory). So it doesn't matter at all what you think or do. And the base reality might just have a totally different set of laws in its own Hilbert space as well, so the base Super AI (or true God) might just be fooling around for fun too.

Even Christianity and Hinduism hints about this. For one, Christianity claims the world is only 5600 years old or so (I think). This can only be argued for if the simulation was started from that point in time. Not that time really exists in a simulation. As it was all probably simulated simultaneously. Christianity (Book of Enoch) also mentions the fallen angels who went down to earth to have sex. So basically, we chose to enter the simulation only to fuck around. LOL! And Hinduism have this whole idea about several lifetimes. So you need to beat the game so to speak. As in trying not to fuck. What the fuck?

Alternatively, if you look at religion from a totally different point of view. Some dude, or AI might have came up with the idea with one purpose only: population control! Just look at the Aztecs and how they sacrificed humans to Quetzalcoatl. Or how the Egyptians and even later King Saul of Israel made their armies chop off the cock of their enemies after battle (and yes, that was how circumcision originated) as a fertility token to be sacrificed to the god. It was all about population control even then. So when we today have this unwritten, so called fantastically civilized rule of; no more wars, a global virus might just do the same trick.

Besides, the more people we are on this planet, or inside this Matrix simulation, the less real players to observe, the less computing power needs to be spent, the more NPC AI's. So the Super AI won't get any interesting data any longer if all it does is monitor its own little NPC 'human-AI' software programs. Or as I like to call them: sheep!

Well, take it for what its worth, but you are naive, or just a sheep, if you think I am all wack! LOL!

And if you think the computers won't handle this: We can already make computers way more than 1000 times faster than today thanks to Darpa's 3 dsoc program. But it will probably be released in stages according to the financially applicable Moore's Law.

[URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FynNze5GkeI[/URL]

Adding all the multipliers he talks about in that video together you probably reach 100 000+ times faster compute. So self replicating nanofactories and maybe even foglets are easily within reach with the technology we have today. Especially when also adding in optics like this, bumping up the speeds even more:

[URL]https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/news/photonic-breakthrough-new-light-emitting-silicon-eliminates-heat-in-pcb-design/[/URL]

And guess what else is DARPA funded. Virus and bacteria research on pandemics such as ebola, corona and malaria. Not that it means anything. LOL.

If you had a choice of sex with mask in FKK or to wank at home without mask which would you choose?

[QUOTE=Turgid;2449614]A test at the airport upon entrance into a country would make more sense as well. Presenting a test result at immigration makes no sense as the visitor could have gotten infected after the test.[/QUOTE]Not practical. Imagine two plane loads of visitors. That is 500 people that need to be tested. At least 2 hrs. For a line to adminster the test and another hour at least to get the results and to clear people. In the mean time, you have 500 people in a holding pen infecting each other if 1 person tests positive. Then no one gets out. Meanwhile, more planes are arriving. What do you do about the people who test positive? The only solution is testing before boarding. At least then you know your fellow passengers will probably be clean.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2449557]In brothels, I only believe in what I see or experience, when my best FKK girl, Romanian looking like a woman of course, was queen of lies and gossiping, the best and she improved so much, to follow me for my way in bed, but her lies and new image made her not anymore desirable for me as I told her, not anymore chic enough for my taste when I chose her for her manners when she started and she really impressed me on some times until mid March 2017 or when I returned to her on September when she needed less than 3 hours to reorganize as before. On Thursday, after sex, Russian from Moscow, not Romanian, Olga behave exactly like Romanians, she could tell me: condom is full, bye, see You, but not at all, I know she discovered with her round big eyes and she also showed me about her private, gave me Russian private to meet without management, after only 1 hour with a guy she doesn't know, when Paris is not so safe for escorts, unfortunately many were attacked, robbed and never returned and I had to drive to Milano for Tatar wow Zoya, I remember on ice on top of Gran San Bernardino when they closed on that mid October night, but maybe because she saw her little female dog so in love with me, maybe on next time she will propose me to try the dog, or maybe like many FKK, mostly Romanian, beauties, she just felt safe, from my manners and respect for women. She is different profile of escort, not on tour, but living in Paris for modeling and photos shooting and instagram, closer to normal woman and she didn't seem to have busy sex, so fresh and tight, a pretty Russian doll, but with exactly same behavior with me than Romanians. It must be my face to inspire trust, when I had many Russian girls for nights in not safe Paris and even a magic night in Peter for 400 USD. Also same behavior on my few visits in Catalunya with Ukrainian or Belarus Katya showing me her private, when Russians seen were not pretty enough, not on Olga look level.[/QUOTE]Exactly, so you do believe in prostitutes in FKK, I don't, I appreciate their service, kindness and crazy dirty deep I don't believe she just did that kind of sex that I pay for, but once I am out of door, it is pay and good bye time, it just stay good memories, and I don't take them seriously. But you do even knowing all the names, past names, exact dates etc.

I think there are different type of monger, I am normal monger who seek sex in brothel, I want to fuck like crazy in brothel, you know real good sex. Siri, you seek for more than sex, you don't even get same level of sex as I do in FKK, you want relation with prostitutes, this is not my thing, but there are some mongers who want to have relation with prostitutes like you do and believe in prostitutes. I don't believe in prostitutes, I just fuck them good LOL! Unlike you LOL!

I am professional prostitute fucker, you are professional prostitutes worshiper LOL!

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2449639]The Wuhan Coronavirus Lab was set up with the help of the French government. There were staff going back and forth between China and France. So it wouldn't surprise me if the first outbreak outside China was in France.

Yeah, everybody blames China for this, but let's not forget the role that France and the US had in funding this dangerous research. It was kind of like the way Apple outsourced its iPhone production to Foxconn in China, a place where safety and labor laws are lax. All the workers in China just follow authority blindly, no matter how bad things get.[/QUOTE]Yes and it came back on France, and France did not even notice they had it in December. France do not have good enough technology, France is good with food and fashion, rest is same level as China, except China is much richer than France now by far.

As for USA, if you look at death per population, it is not too bad. And yes, they also were involved in lab, but to warn the danger of the lad as it was not well managed and look what happened.

It turns out Europe had corona first after China and spread around world. Look at death rates of France, Spain and Italy. It is war level death rate, and increasing.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2449540]Like for sex, you are so impressive knowing better than doctors, when so many foreigners come to be cured and I and French who work, not many at the moment, pay for.[/QUOTE]Yeah so many middle east former colony of France LOL that are still back in 19th century technology, so they got no choice. France is not good in technology or medical. Look at death rate of France, just look. It is not because of just fat people and old as you claim, France is no longer strong nation. Only Germany is strong in Europe.

[QUOTE=Turgid;2449722]If you had a choice of sex with mask in FKK or to wank at home without mask which would you choose?[/QUOTE]Plenty of FKK girls available without mask here. Didn't think North Americans wanked! You sure you are not from Notting Hill London? Thanks for your most excellent post. Great fun. Many including myself having a great laugh. Keep up all the great work. You really should post some more.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2449617]What is reliability for tests? Not high for those in nose.[/QUOTE]WSj has an article on antigen based test, from a company called Quidel. I think it uses nose swabs. Apparently the accuracy is 85%. I don't know if it gives too many false positives or false negatives. If we are going to ramp up to 4 million tests per day in the US, which currently is less than 300 K daily, we need a new type of test. PCR is too slow but accurate. Perhaps we use Antigen test as a first round test and if it is positive then we confirm with PCR.

If you had a choice of sex with mask in FKK or to wank at home without mask which would you choose?

Answer:

I am single so your proposed choice is not possible for me. But I can t imagine myself visiting a prostitute or a FKK before long time. This virus seems to be quite aggressive and how can I imagine having relatively safe sex knowing that this virus is able to enter my body even through my eyes, I also can t imagine not licking a woman this also may be at very high risk. On top of that, I am extremely selective and only looking for real natural beauties, young, fresh without tattoos, Botox, sili, hair extensions. And unfortunately those king of woman was very difficult to find in the FKK in the recent years. Probably with the reduced travel possibilities in Europe the LU will be poor.

Positively since I drastically reduced my FKK escapes and escort dates (from 2017) my finances are getting so munch better.

[QUOTE=Turgid;2449722]If you had a choice of ̶s̶e̶x̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶m̶a̶s̶k̶ mask with sex in FKK or to wank at home without mask which would you choose?[/QUOTE]Salaam Turgid. I assume they will provide Gorilla masks and Freddy Krueger masks as these turn on the girls the most. For a lesbian theme, put on a Paris Hilton mask. As for wanking at home, nobody can see me so I would settle for a plain surgical mask. Three of them actually. One for my face, one for my dick, and one for the pickle.

Some FKKs may have striptease shows where the girl gradually peels off her face mask, showing some cheeky rouge, then her lips and maybe even a hint of tongue at the end.

[QUOTE=Turgid;2449722]If you had a choice of sex with mask in FKK or to wank at home without mask which would you choose?[/QUOTE]Just like with BBBJ law, I do what I want in room with FKK girls and all girls will agree as they agreed so far, therefore, nothing will change once FKK reopen, which is up to governments to decide when it will be open, how will not affect me once the door is closed to fuck FKK girls, it all happens behind door and I am free as pierre woodman the pride of all french men to do what I want with girl, calls her chien! Chien! And spank that ass doggy style LOL!

Chien! Chien!

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2449740]WSj has an article on antigen based test, from a company called Quidel. I think it uses nose swabs. Apparently the accuracy is 85%. I don't know if it gives too many false positives or false negatives. If we are going to ramp up to 4 million tests per day in the US, which currently is less than 300 K daily, we need a new type of test. PCR is too slow but accurate. Perhaps we use Antigen test as a first round test and if it is positive then we confirm with PCR.[/QUOTE]France should have used more accurate test last December, when they began having Corona virus and did not even realized they had it LOL! Which lead to crazy war level death rates in France.

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2449682]Thanks for sharing your experience. I did respond to your prior comment related to DRG codes. I am not going to criticize or defend the US healthcare system which is indeed complex because we have a combination of payers (private insurance, CMS, Medicaid, exchanges involved, state regulations, health savings plans) and many other complications. If you want to effect change, you need to work inside the system. Anyone can criticize of course, but real change is hard to bring unless people work together and constructively. Entire elections hinge on discussions and changes in US healthcare systems, it is not as if we don't discuss these things internally.

But your situation is different from Polyamoritst's situation. His primary motive often appears to be take cheap shots at the US. See his most recent comment above for example where he makes a nonsensical, made up accusation that US and France funded the research behind Corona virus, and tied it to some incoherent rant about iPhone. When you also notice that he intentionally camouflages his own nationality in these pages and leads with the fake usage of Arab expressions (BFsie already said however that Polyamorist actually is a resident of DE, whether he is a citizen or not), such intentionally false accusations do nothing to promote a constructive and friendly exchange of info on an international site like ISG. Why would any person intentionally uses fake Arab persona, and incite a conflict between US, France, China in a place like this? What good comes out of it?[/QUOTE]But when people lose job, like so many millions now, or don't have full time job, they don't have healthcare insurance and can t afford to pay for healthcare, reason why Afro Americans and illegals die much more than others, they don t go to hospital, they keep on working to have money to eat. At least, in US like in Western Europe, we get figures and explanations about what happen, with US figures planned to be around 150000 deaths at the end of Summer, I dont know if they control about so many new poor people now without insurance and more than 10 millions illegals, how could they control for illegals? I thought to remember Obama tried to change about healthcare right.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2449730]Exactly, so you do believe in prostitutes in FKK,

I am professional prostitute fucker, you are professional prostitutes worshiper LOL![/QUOTE]Are you asking if he believes in prostitutes or if he believes the prostitutes. It changes the context drastically.

To be a professional prostitute fucker means you get paid to fuck them. Who is paying? I want to submit my application. I am a frequent fucker of professional prostitutes.

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2449740]WSj has an article on antigen based test, from a company called Quidel. I think it uses nose swabs. Apparently the accuracy is 85%. I don't know if it gives too many false positives or false negatives. If we are going to ramp up to 4 million tests per day in the US, which currently is less than 300 K daily, we need a new type of test. PCR is too slow but accurate. Perhaps we use Antigen test as a first round test and if it is positive then we confirm with PCR.[/QUOTE]UK received millions Chinese tests which were not reliable. People died in France from virus when tests made in hospitals were negative. I'm not doctor but I think to remember nose test works only when you are under infection, not much with people with no symptom who are the most numerous and can give real infection to others. I think only reliable test is on blood, but you can be infected on the day after. Like they decide in Sweden and I don't know if this is best way, but we have now to live with this killer virus even seem to slow down in Western Europe, but still strong in US poor places and growing in Brazil. Some health profiles are now at risk, they should be very careful. Same for who have beloved relatives they can give to.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2449730]Exactly, so you do believe in prostitutes in FKK, I don't, I appreciate their service, kindness and crazy dirty deep I don't believe she just did that kind of sex that I pay for, but once I am out of door, it is pay and good bye time, it just stay good memories, and I don't take them seriously. But you do even knowing all the names, past names, exact dates etc.

I think there are different type of monger, I am normal monger who seek sex in brothel, I want to fuck like crazy in brothel, you know real good sex. Siri, you seek for more than sex, you don't even get same level of sex as I do in FKK, you want relation with prostitutes, this is not my thing, but there are some mongers who want to have relation with prostitutes like you do and believe in prostitutes. I don't believe in prostitutes, I just fuck them good LOL! Unlike you LOL!

I am professional prostitute fucker, you are professional prostitutes worshiper LOL![/QUOTE]But didn't you read and understand Olga is not FKK Romanian, but Russian living in Paris since beginning of the year to try career, not classical escort on tour profile, why she is interesting, more normal woman, but exactly same behavior than FKK Romanians, and same with so many other Russian escorts I got out of agencies, for nights after work, telling about their life, really not needing to ask for, same in any place, same with Rachel GT, Sandra Sharks and wow Elena. De in Germany. When women trust, they need to speak, indeed after or before sex, to feel safe, but you need to have level for this, a bit higher and also for performance for real, not porn comedy, than Woodman style. Sex is not only to empty balls for me, I won't pay only for this, I prefer pleasure in mind, even much more difficult to get.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2449774]Some FKKs may have striptease shows where the girl gradually peels off her face mask, showing some cheeky rouge, then her lips and maybe even a hint of tongue at the end.[/QUOTE]Damn, that's hot.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2449731]As for USA, if you look at death per population, it is not too bad..[/QUOTE]That's if you trust those numbers worldwide to be accurate. Which they are not. Why try to come to any comparisons / conclusions when everyone knows those numbers are not accurate? Some countries under represent the number of deaths / cases and other countries over represent the number of deaths / cases. Most countries are not reporting all of their deaths. Even the numbers in the USA are not accurate because they push the corona virus death numbers up on purpose. The way the system is setup with the US Government funding, if a person dies of coronavirus, they get 13,000 usd free from the Government. If they are on the vent from coronavirus, they get 30,000 usd. If they die from anything else or go on the vent due to anything else, they get zero. So they are basically claiming that anyone who even possibly may have corona died of corona, which is far from the truth.

The death numbers they are posting in the US are higher than reality. Just the opposite has happened in China (obviously).

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2449740]WSj has an article on antigen based test, from a company called Quidel. I think it uses nose swabs. Apparently the accuracy is 85%. I don't know if it gives too many false positives or false negatives. If we are going to ramp up to 4 million tests per day in the US, which currently is less than 300 K daily, we need a new type of test. PCR is too slow but accurate. Perhaps we use Antigen test as a first round test and if it is positive then we confirm with PCR.[/QUOTE]No offence intended, but 85% is ways to little accuracy to be used for serious testing and monitoring infections. Every false positive will feel safe, ignore rules as he is "safe", catch the virus and happily spread it until he gets serious ill and will be retested, or even worse, just have mild symptoms and become a super-spreader.

Tests with such an accuracy might be used for personal entertainment only, but have zero epidemiological value.

Just my 2 cents.

I purchased two packs of 10 filters for about 20 bucks each. You can get this all purchased at [URL]https://www.indiegogo.com[/URL].

The major bottleneck is. Shipment isn't before August!

[QUOTE=JimmyBoy99;2449633]The website says the HEPA filters in the mask are only good for 150 hours of use. If you can't replace the filters (and there is no mention of replacement filters on the website), what do you do with the mask other than throw it (and your $199) away?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Kuni042;2449854]I purchased two packs of 10 filters for about 20 bucks each. You can get this all purchased at [URL]https://www.indiegogo.com[/URL].

The major bottleneck is. Shipment isn't before August![/QUOTE]What for? To go to German stores which opened? Or to go for sex looking like fireman. I don t put mask to go to stores in France, this is not compulsory in France where many stores never closed, I go every week to buy foods, to buy gas because I work more than usual under virus because much more complicated conditions for my teams and I m responsible about their working safety. I often meet police at the moment for controls. Of course, no mask when I went to Olga. Ru, we didn't even talk about, when I saw her I just felt desire, I extended time just for her look and all was full GFE fluent with many real DFK, but as I often say, I'm not a example to follow, if You are not really sure to be strong health enough or if You have relatives You can infect, then better to be very careful, meaning staying away from paid sex. My advice. Restaurants and bars should also open in Germany, but brothels would be high risk for German R0 with many guys who don t look so healthy. No hurry for me, I will wait for borders opening, I think 15 May for Germany, but only 15 June for France, but I won t go to put on mask, not my libido, needing to see pretty faces.

[QUOTE=Chongmal;2448841]Just like in P6 activities, in medical communities money motivates. I write this without evidence or first hand knowledge, so I will be careful with wording and punctuation. Is it true that in the US a hospital gets paid over 56 times more if a patients cause of death is ruled to be from COVID-19 rather than the flu? If the numbers are $17000 compared to $300 could this possibly motivate hospitals to find more COVID-19 deaths?[/QUOTE][QUOTE=Turgid;2449120]This can be easily verified by comparing deaths from other illnesses to those during a similar period last year.[/QUOTE]Most places are experiencing higher than normal death rates when comparing against historical averages:[URL]https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/21/world/coronavirus-missing-deaths.html[/URL].

So that might give a slightly more accurate picture. Similar to the stories of Wuhan where many mobile phone numbers suddenly fell into disuse, or more urns than normal were delivered to funeral homes.

[QUOTE=Akibono;2449726]Not practical. Imagine two plane loads of visitors. That is 500 people that need to be tested. At least 2 hrs. For a line to adminster the test and another hour at least to get the results and to clear people. In the mean time, you have 500 people in a holding pen infecting each other if 1 person tests positive. Then no one gets out. Meanwhile, more planes are arriving. What do you do about the people who test positive? The only solution is testing before boarding. At least then you know your fellow passengers will probably be clean.[/QUOTE]Wouldn't the same logistical problems exist testing at airport before boarding?

[QUOTE=Turgid;2449894]Wouldn't the same logistical problems exist testing at airport before boarding?[/QUOTE]Yes you would. Testing at an airport would be a terrible idea! The airport is no place for testing, diagnosis, vaccinations, and so on. All that sort of thing should happen at hospitals and clinics set up specifically for that purpose. You don't get your tests, shots, visas, identification, and all that stuff at the airport. Better to have all those matters squared away before you show up at the airport so that when you get there, you're cleared and ready to travel. The only thing that might be good to do would be quick temperature scans to identify who is traveling with a fever. You can do that without creating a massive jam of passengers.

[QUOTE=Smoothy;2449834]That's if you trust those numbers worldwide to be accurate. Which they are not. Why try to come to any comparisons / conclusions when everyone knows those numbers are not accurate? Some countries under represent the number of deaths / cases and other countries over represent the number of deaths / cases. Most countries are not reporting all of their deaths. Even the numbers in the USA are not accurate because they push the corona virus death numbers up on purpose. The way the system is setup with the US Government funding, if a person dies of coronavirus, they get 13,000 usd free from the Government. If they are on the vent from coronavirus, they get 30,000 usd. If they die from anything else or go on the vent due to anything else, they get zero. So they are basically claiming that anyone who even possibly may have corona died of corona, which is far from the truth.

The death numbers they are posting in the US are higher than reality. Just the opposite has happened in China (obviously).[/QUOTE]US tell only 78000 deaths at the moment, with more than 1500 per day, but what about so many people without insurance and illegals, for who nobody know. On this crisis, I'm not, but if I was American, I think I would trust more Obama than Trump.

[QUOTE=Turgid;2449894]Wouldn't the same logistical problems exist testing at airport before boarding?[/QUOTE]No. You can test hours earlier and those who do not pass do not get to board. You could probably test a day earlier if you accept some risk. Plus, safer on plane if everyone is virus free.

[QUOTE=RealZoom;2449837]No offence intended, but 85% is ways to little accuracy to be used for serious testing and monitoring infections. Every false positive will feel safe, ignore rules as he is "safe", catch the virus and happily spread it until he gets serious ill and will be retested, or even worse, just have mild symptoms and become a super-spreader.

Tests with such an accuracy might be used for personal entertainment only, but have zero epidemiological value.

Just my 2 cents.[/QUOTE]None taken! In fact, I quite agree with you. But we need to scale up testing. We are doing 250,000 tests a day. All the experts are saying 5 to 10 million tests are necessary to fully reopen the economy in the US. Our current PCR test is quite accurate but too slow and it does not look like we can do 5 million PCR tests per day in the next few months. What can we do? The antigen based test is an answer. Even if the accuracy is a bit low, it enables mass scale testing.

I would much rather tests give too many false positives. If someone has been falsely diagnosed as positive, a subsequent accurate test will show he is not. Too many false negative tests is a problem because the infected people think they are clear, mingle with the rest of us and spread the virus.

BigBuddy69,

You asked me about massage a few days ago. Just let you know that all types of Massage parlors in NRW are allowed to be reopened from tomorrow (May 11), but I think you know it is illegal to offer any kind of sex service in massage parlors in Germany.

According to one poster on Rheinforum who studied new measures (see the link below), escort service will also be allowed in NRW from tomorrow although it is not clearly stated in the measures.

https://www.land.nrw/sites/default/files/asset/document/2020-05-08_fassung_coronaschvo_ab_11.05.2020_lesefassung_final_0.pdf

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2449813]But didn't you read and understand Olga is not FKK Romanian, but Russian living in Paris since beginning of the year to try career, not classical escort on tour profile, why she is interesting, more normal woman, but exactly same behavior than FKK Romanians, and same with so many other Russian escorts I got out of agencies, for nights after work, telling about their life, really not needing to ask for, same in any place, same with Rachel GT, Sandra Sharks and wow Elena. De in Germany. When women trust, they need to speak, indeed after or before sex, to feel safe, but you need to have level for this, a bit higher and also for performance for real, not porn comedy, than Woodman style. Sex is not only to empty balls for me, I won't pay only for this, I prefer pleasure in mind, even much more difficult to get.[/QUOTE]They are prostitutes Siri, you can call prostitutes to seek for some relation like you do, but generally, prostitutes are there to have sexual relation based on money, not to seek personal relation try to find out about their private information, they do not like that, it is creepy LOL.

They may tell you differently because they have to handle you as a client and very difficult and creepy one LOL. Put yourself on their shoes LOL.

I call prostitutes or go to FKK to fuck. To have personal relations I got my private life with friends to do that. I don't need prostitutes in my private lives and prostitutes don't need their clients in their private lives, they need us in their professional lives.

[QUOTE=Smoothy;2449834]That's if you trust those numbers worldwide to be accurate. Which they are not. Why try to come to any comparisons / conclusions when everyone knows those numbers are not accurate? Some countries under represent the number of deaths / cases and other countries over represent the number of deaths / cases. Most countries are not reporting all of their deaths. Even the numbers in the USA are not accurate because they push the corona virus death numbers up on purpose. The way the system is setup with the US Government funding, if a person dies of coronavirus, they get 13,000 usd free from the Government. If they are on the vent from coronavirus, they get 30,000 usd. If they die from anything else or go on the vent due to anything else, they get zero. So they are basically claiming that anyone who even possibly may have corona died of corona, which is far from the truth.

The death numbers they are posting in the US are higher than reality. Just the opposite has happened in China (obviously).[/QUOTE]As for so called red team like China and Russia no, and as for emerging nations or less developed nations corona is not there yet in some of these nations and they don't have infrastructure to test them anyways.

I would say G7 nations figures for death rates are more or less accurate. As for infection rates, some nations are not doing test on everyone who ask for it to avoid cluster infection at hospitals and also to protect medical infrastructures to decrease death rates and it is saving lives that is important and not testing people who ask for it, so it is right measure.

Situation seems to be getting bit calmer for first wave, let see if there is second wave like Spanish flu, which killed more people with second wave.

[QUOTE=Smoothy;2449834]That's if you trust those numbers worldwide to be accurate. Which they are not. Why try to come to any comparisons / conclusions when everyone knows those numbers are not accurate? Some countries under represent the number of deaths / cases and other countries over represent the number of deaths / cases. Most countries are not reporting all of their deaths. Even the numbers in the USA are not accurate because they push the corona virus death numbers up on purpose. The way the system is setup with the US Government funding, if a person dies of coronavirus, they get 13,000 usd free from the Government. If they are on the vent from coronavirus, they get 30,000 usd. If they die from anything else or go on the vent due to anything else, they get zero. So they are basically claiming that anyone who even possibly may have corona died of corona, which is far from the truth.

The death numbers they are posting in the US are higher than reality. Just the opposite has happened in China (obviously).[/QUOTE]This is total BS. Analysis from every single nation shows that far more people died in March and April of this year than did in prior years and only a fraction of those were classified as dying from Corona. This is happening even as deaths due to traffic accidents, gun violence, work place accidents have massively declined. All analysts and experts are saying many deaths which are due to Corona are not being classified as such because those people were never tested.

As for this excess payment for a Corona death than normal death in US hospitals -- this is a lie being propagated by people who don't have faintest fucking clue about US hospitals, DRG codes, reimbursement methods, US insurance system, interplay of CMS and private employer insurance and so many other things. Enough said.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2449711]
Given how the world is already run by a future AI that traveled back in time, we really don't have anything to say. Because it already knows what we have said. That is why Big Brother is everywhere around us. It is the Super AI needing to monitor us. Then again, that AI is probably just a software within the Matrix software we are living in also. To simulate our response to it by an even more super AI. And most 'humans' are probably just non playable characters too. Besides, science even seems to prove this (the double slit experiment and the mathematically more logical holographic universe theory). So it doesn't matter at all what you think or do. And the base reality might just have a totally different set of laws in its own Hilbert space as well, so the base Super AI (or true God) might just be fooling around for fun too.[/QUOTE]Salaam Pistons and may your herd of goats never stray from the road to Mecca. I think you discovered much of the above from the speculative text [I]Hyperion[/I] by Dan Simmons. If not, give it a read!

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2449682]
But your situation is different from Polyamoritst's situation. His primary motive often appears to be take cheap shots at the US. See his most recent comment above for example where he makes a nonsensical, made up accusation that US and France funded the research behind Corona virus, and tied it to some incoherent rant about iPhone. When you also notice that he intentionally camouflages his own nationality in these pages and leads with the fake usage of Arab expressions (BFsie already said however that Polyamorist actually is a resident of DE, whether he is a citizen or not), such intentionally false accusations do nothing to promote a constructive and friendly exchange of info on an international site like ISG.[/QUOTE]I'm flattered by your attention and curiosity, Pessimist. I just wanted to assure you that I am a very open person and all you had to do was send me a PM and (as with anyone who asks) I would return my name, address, email, scan of my Caliphate Driving License, SSN, credit card number, DNA pdf and (new) Wuhan Travel Permit QR-code. My sole regret is that the rules of the forum prohibit me from putting this information in a public post, leaving people such as yourself with the impression that I have something to hide. The only thing I would ask you to share in return is the location of your jail / work unit so I may come and read to you and perhaps convert you to the True Faith.

As for the idea of residence in Germany, your research may have been a bit lacking. It seems unlikely if you look at my posting times with a magnifying glass. If you catch me dropping into Deutsch from time to time that is just a [I]Zufall[/I] due my excessive Whatsapping with Dusseldorf [I]Hobbyhuren[/I]. But why shouldn't I live over there if I wanted to? My dream would be to manage my own little kebab shop in Neukolln and head to the raves at night. I would be a shoo-in to the party scene anywhere in Germany with my dusky skin, thick accent and sexy limp acquired during the Six-Day War.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2450018]Salaam Pistons and may your herd of goats never stray from the road to Mecca. I think you discovered much of the above from the speculative text [I]Hyperion[/I] by Dan Simmons. If not, give it a read!

I'm flattered by your attention and curiosity, Pessimist. I just wanted to assure you that I am a very open person and all you had to do was send me a PM and (as with anyone who asks) I would return my name, address, email, scan of my Caliphate Driving License, SSN, credit card number, DNA pdf and (new) Wuhan Travel Permit QR-code. My sole regret is that the rules of the forum prohibit me from putting this information in a public post, leaving people such as yourself with the impression that I have something to hide. The only thing I would ask you to share in return is the location of your jail / work unit so I may come and read to you and perhaps convert you to the True Faith.

As for the idea of residence in Germany, your research may have been a bit lacking. It seems unlikely if you look at my posting times with a magnifying glass. But why shouldn't I live over there if I wanted to? My dream would be to manage my own little kebab shop in Neukolln and head to the raves at night. I would be a shoo-in to the party scene anywhere in Germany with my dusky skin, thick accent and sexy limp acquired during the Six-Day War.[/QUOTE]Sorry, Poly! Your slander that I am in prison is out of line and reflective of your own lack of class; the sarcasm in the rest of your comment is wasted. No one cares where you are from; You do give several false hints constantly with those fake Arab invocations which were funny once or twice but after a while are tiresome to most people. Be that as it may, your continual cheap shots at US are indicative that perhaps in the past this country was not nice to you, or perhaps simply you are jealous of Americans who are far more wealthy than where you may be from. I do not care what drives you or motivates you in this needless and pointless animosity to US, I simply observe that your comments are full of cheap shots and falsehoods about US, and it is obvious to any American that you pretty much have no clue about America. It would be far better if you focused on your mongering life and contributed info in that direction which is the point of ISG, and not denigrating some other country of which you are jealous.

[QUOTE=Smoothy;2449834]That's if you trust those numbers worldwide to be accurate. Which they are not. Why try to come to any comparisons / conclusions when everyone knows those numbers are not accurate? Some countries under represent the number of deaths / cases and other countries over represent the number of deaths / cases. Most countries are not reporting all of their deaths. Even the numbers in the USA are not accurate because they push the corona virus death numbers up on purpose. The way the system is setup with the US Government funding, if a person dies of coronavirus, they get 13,000 usd free from the Government. If they are on the vent from coronavirus, they get 30,000 usd. If they die from anything else or go on the vent due to anything else, they get zero. So they are basically claiming that anyone who even possibly may have corona died of corona, which is far from the truth.

The death numbers they are posting in the US are higher than reality. Just the opposite has happened in China (obviously).[/QUOTE]It does not surprise me if Chinese government did this on half purpose to mess up US election, so Trump, which is Chinese enemy number one won't be elected.

I hope American voters are smart enough to figure out, republican is the last wall to stop crazy things from not happening, but going worst, so they will vote wisely.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2450029]It does not surprise me if Chinese government did this on half purpose to mess up US election, so Trump, which is Chinese enemy number one won't be elected.

I hope American voters are smart enough to figure out, republican is the last wall to stop crazy things from not happening, but going worst, so they will vote wisely.[/QUOTE]With Obama this crisis would not have been a disaster in US. Biden is not the best and I am worried about how weak can be him in facing with Republicans. Trump could win if he announces the vaccine before November.

[QUOTE=Kamsutra69;2449559]CIM won't be allowed then ... will be cure to this virus soon. Otherwise I don't see the clubs opening before that.[/QUOTE]It was, it is and it will be unnecessary to discuss any kind of features which male guests expect or are suprised to get in touch with when being in a club. Why? Nobody got a look beyond the closed door but assumptions and rumours make the round what happens and the conditions for realisation. Meanwhile it's ridiculous that traditional STD and HIV aren't anymore in the focus of board members (maybe most of the guys always have a broad-spectrum antibiotic in their pockets or stories about welllknown clubs are only fairy tales) but castles' building in the air thinking that there is a vaccine close to approval by FDA is the key for unlimited pleasure in the future??

[QUOTE=Tedesco;2450086]NRW is the hotspot for Corona since the very first beginning as e.g. carnival events worked like a splitter in several regions. But the prime minister of NRW since weeks is one of the opinion leaders arguing for more freedom especially in social life.[/QUOTE]Maybe specific small towns in NRW. Dusseldorf is the second most populous city in NRW, but seems like maybe 5-6 cities have more total cases: [URL]https://www.wz.de/nrw/fallzahlen-so-viele-coronavirus-infizierte-gibt-es-in-nrw_aid-49482175[/URL].

Total cases, Bavaria has 44 K, NRW 35 K, Baden-Wurttemberg 33 K. Per 100 K, Bavaria has 339, Baden-Wrttem*berg 300, NRW 196: [URL]https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus/Fallzahlen.html[/URL].

Berlin is the biggest city and has the second-highest population density behind Munich, yet they only have 167 cases per 100 K. Hessen only has 144 per 100 K and it has the by far the most busiest airport. I find that surprising.

[QUOTE=Tedesco;2450089]It was, it is and it will be unnecessary to discuss any kind of features which male guests expect or are suprised to get in touch with when being in a club. Why? Nobody got a look beyond the closed door but assumptions and rumours make the round what happens and the conditions for realisation. Meanwhile it's ridiculous that traditional STD and HIV aren't anymore in the focus of board members (maybe most of the guys always have a broad-spectrum antibiotic in their pockets or stories about welllknown clubs are only fairy tales) but castles' building in the air thinking that there is a vaccine close to approval by FDA is the key for unlimited pleasure in the future??[/QUOTE]I often don't understand what I read about AO and HIV. I'm not afraid by much, I'm used to take big risks nearly weekly, I don't worry much about virus for me, I'm pretty sure virus was already in clubs on mid March when I was there, but I m afraid of HIV, because even you succeed to survive for a while, You will be weak for your life. I don't want to die like this.

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2449682] (BFsie already said however that Polyamorist actually is a resident of DE, whether he is a citizen or not), [/QUOTE]Just to be clear, he used to live in Germany and I think he still lived here at the time I mentioned about his residence. I don't know where he lives now and when he left Germany if he doesn't live here anymore.

Just reading the news of frustration and protest at the speed of which Germany loosens the lockdown controls. Seems that the people want more freedoms and are willing to break havoc in their cities and risk long term detention to express their discontent with the current situation.

At the same time, the Robert Koch Institute has reported an uptick in COVID-19 cases since the lockdown restrictions began to loosen up and or since people began ignoring them.

Now in the US we are seeing a new crisis. It seems toilet paper is again available in stores and stores are now posting they will not accept returns of personal stockpiles of toilet paper. The new crisis is a meat shortage. Suddenly there is not enough refrigeration capacity to safely store the meat being processed. Farmers are having to slaughter and dispose of animals. I guess they expire on the hoof if not butchered by a certain age. In the village where I live, which has at least one bovine per human, the beef shortage has caused the price of beef hash to increase by nearly 100%, there was recently no pork, price of chicken is up 30%, eggs recently went from $4 per dozen to over $9 per dozen. Fortunately I can buy fuel for $1.74 per American gallon so I can drive to the mountains to go fishing, as long as there are no more than 3 people in a 15 ft boat and no more than 10 boats on the lake.

[QUOTE=Akibono;2449950]No. You can test hours earlier and those who do not pass do not get to board. You could probably test a day earlier if you accept some risk. Plus, safer on plane if everyone is virus free.[/QUOTE]Test a day earlier and person has whole day to be infected after being tested before flight. The choice is delay at airport before flight or delay at airport after flight. I prefer the latter.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2450018]Salaam Pistons and may your herd of goats never stray from the road to Mecca. I think you discovered much of the above from the speculative text [I]Hyperion[/I] by Dan Simmons. If not, give it a read![/QUOTE]Just too many youtube videos on technology and philosophy. From seminars and documentaries, to the average joes slapped together own ideas. And a few theories and links myself too. But I'll check out that book.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2450113]Just to be clear, he used to live in Germany and I think he still lived here at the time I mentioned about his residence. I don't know where he lives now and when he left Germany if he doesn't live here anymore.[/QUOTE]Thank you Bfsie. Sorry, I did and't mean to drag you into this squabble, my apologies to you. I really have no interest to know who lives where and why -- I am not disclosing my city and state either, although my country of residence has been obvious. My only point is that when someone intentionally camouflages their residence and origin using obviously fake expressions as a ruse, they should not be posting continual derogatory comments on other countries in a forum dedicated to international sex mongers. Let us respect all nations and nationalities and let us not throw stones at each other. Thank you.

We are all aware of the risks we take by visiting brothels and engaging escorts. Many of us also take a lot of precautions. I have never ever not used a cover. Plus the demand for a thorough cleaning before and after.

But even then it's a risky business precisely because not everyone adheres to these standards. So, the regular check ups for HIV & STD. Would we take similar risks vis-a-vis corona going forward? I have no doubt that we will.

[QUOTE=Tedesco;2450089]It was, it is and it will be unnecessary to discuss any kind of features which male guests expect or are suprised to get in touch with when being in a club. Why? Nobody got a look beyond the closed door but assumptions and rumours make the round what happens and the conditions for realisation. Meanwhile it's ridiculous that traditional STD and HIV aren't anymore in the focus of board members (maybe most of the guys always have a broad-spectrum antibiotic in their pockets or stories about welllknown clubs are only fairy tales) but castles' building in the air thinking that there is a vaccine close to approval by FDA is the key for unlimited pleasure in the future??[/QUOTE]

Russia's national death toll from coronavirus could be 70 per cent higher than the government's official data show, as the Kremlin struggles to curb the spread of Covid-19 despite a seven-week long lockdown.

The Financial Times' analysis of all-cause mortality data in Moscow, the capital, and St Petersburg, Russia's second-largest city, found 2,073 more deaths in April*relative to the historical average of the previous five years.

Official Covid deaths in the two cities came to just 629 for the same period, leaving 1,444 deaths in excess of normal mortality levels unaccounted for. If added to the reported national figure of 2,009 Covid deaths as of Monday morning, this would mean a 72 per cent increase in Russia's national death*toll.

Russia has made it illegal to publish or discuss "fake news" about the pandemic in the country, a decision that critics say could be used to muzzle independent media reports that contradict the government's official statements.

President Vladimir Putin has repeatedly told citizens that the pandemic is "under control",*despite claims from a doctors' association linked to opposition activists that the government has covered up the scale of the medical crisis.

Read more in the article below.

FT, WSJ, and other media have had such articles about country after country. This pattern - - - that death toll in March and April, is significantly higher than the average of prior 3 or 5 years - - - is happening in so many countries.

[URL]https://www.ft.com/content/77cd2cba-b0e2-4022-a265-e0a9a7930bda[/URL]

Even you will use 1000 I am afraid it will not be enough, how will you avoid some virus that are in her hair to enter your body through your eyes? For me visiting prostitutes in the coming months will be at high risk, but each of us can decide about his own life, for sure the girls will return to P6 as soon as possible but we mongers have the choice, my choice is not before the situation is safe.

It is not just Russia either.

Here is an article about US:

[URL]https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/11/cdc-finds-additional-5000-nyc-deaths-possibly-linked-to-coronavirus.html[/URL]

[URL]https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/official-u-s-coronavirus-death-toll-may-be-missing-many-n1201441[/URL]

"USA Health officials have identified 5,000 fatalities in New York City between March and early May that may have been caused by Covid-19 but weren't counted as part of the official coronavirus death toll, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said Monday.

New York City health officials reported 18,879 total Covid-19 deaths between March 11 and May 2, — 13,831 of which were confirmed by a lab and 5,048 of which were categorized as probable cases based on the patients' symptoms and other factors, according to a new CDC report.

There were an additional 5,293 deaths that weren't previously identified as confirmed or probable coronavirus cases that "might have been directly or indirectly attributable to the pandemic," the CDC said.

The number of confirmed or probable Covid-19 deaths might not include deaths among people with the virus "who did not access diagnostic testing, tested falsely negative, or became infected after testing negative, died outside of a health care setting, or for whom Covid-19 was not suspected by a health care provider as a cause of death," the CDC wrote."

The above was in NY state alone.

[URL]https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/07/uk/coronavirus-uk-deaths-intl-gbr/index.html[/URL]

[URL]https://www.wired.co.uk/article/coronavirus-uk-death-toll-numbers[/URL]

This Wired articlee said UK death toll is significantly understated.

"The UK's daily death toll updates for Covid-19 could be underreporting the true number by a significant margin, according to government numbers published Tuesday.

In its daily tally of deaths, UK government counts only people who tested positive and then died of the virus in hospital. But that doesn't match the number of UK death certificates that list COVID-19 as a factor.

On Tuesday, figures released by the UK's Office of National Statistics (ONS), showed that the 1,568 people had Covid-19 listed on their death certificates between March 5, when the first death was reported, and March 27.

In contrast, death tolls released by Public Health England over the same period show only 926 confirmed deaths due to the virus in England."

[URL]https://www.wsj.com/articles/italys-coronavirus-death-toll-is-far-higher-than-reported-11585767179[/URL]

This WSJ article said Italy death toll was much higher than official count. Here is a snippet:

"In and around those two towns, the real number of deaths is probably at least double the official count of 2,060 in March for Bergamo and 1,278 for Brescia since the outbreak began in late February, according to interviews with local officials, doctors and funeral-service providers and comparisons with the numbers of deaths from past years.

People are also dying of other ailments because hospitals are too overloaded with coronavirus cases to give them the treatment they need, doctors and local officials say.

Some 85 people died in the whole of last year in Coccaglio, a town near Brescia of 8,700 residents. In March of this year alone, the town's main church bell has sounded the death knell 56 times. Only 12 of the deaths were officially attributed to the coronavirus."

We can do this country after country.

So what is? Over reported or under reported? Many are dying. Maybe you don't know any of them, or anybody who knows any of them. Many are dying of Covid19. The entire world is reporting. What we do know is that after the incubation time in places opening despite the infection and death rate increasing the shit could hit the fan or as The Stable Genius predicts " it will go away even without a vaccine" Today is day three after opening in the great state of Texas. You don't see Pence with the "15 day" postcard anymore. He's in quarantine. Robert F. Kennedy wrote the forward to a book by a debunked anti-vaccination PhD. Her video is on a site featuring Proud Boys and Alex Jones.

[QUOTE=TeaInTheSun;2450061]With Obama this crisis would not have been a disaster in US. Biden is not the best and I am worried about how weak can be him in facing with Republicans. Trump could win if he announces the vaccine before November.[/QUOTE]USA should always be run by Republicans for stability of the world.

Obama looked good and great speech reading ability, but that's surface, he was worst president of all.

As for Trump, who like how he talk or his behavior or phenomenon he spread, it is not nice thing to hear, but he is one of the greatest president in American history and world, he changed things much more than Obama, some for worst, some for good, but moving forward is important and Trump is poison to kill poison. He has his own agenda, but poison like him is required once in awhile to change things in politic.

However, Trump is acting really bad sadly for Corona virus pandemic. He is old guy in his 70's, so it would be wise if he takes some precaution because if he get infected, imagine the damage it cause to economy and other areas.

Also Mike pence. Mike Pence is one of the politician who was behind bringing Toyota and Honda to USA, specifically to Indiana state creating millions of jobs and billion of US dollars to state, but with corona, I don't know why he was acting the way like he was acting like with mask, he kept on working taking measures, visiting place and now he is in place of possible infection and many others in White House. He is smart guy, but when it comes to corona, he begin to talk about religion as he supposed to be very religious guy.

All in all, USA is doing not that bad. USA is big nation, what is important is not death rate itself, but death per population and USA is doing better than Europe. It is France, Italy and Spain that is worrisome. France has Corona already in December and there are even some report since October and they did not even realize it. It is always their arrogance who fire back at them, they still live in glory of 19th century and only Germany is strong enough nation to stand alone in EU, but Germany takes full advantage of their strength and control EU for their own benefit, that actually is against ideology of EU.

Well, summer is best time in FKK, but this year, I have to skip for my own sake even if it reopen, I am glad I went to FKK in end of Jan. And early Feb., so I did it already this year, but question is should I use escort here if I find stunner Eurasian here. The risk is much less than FKK, but it is there, though risks are always there for all. I must think about this. Maybe in summer when virus may become less strong to contract. To be or not to be, that is the question even for monger LOL!

[QUOTE=Beijing4987;2450233]So what is? Over reported or under reported? Many are dying. Maybe you don't know any of them, or anybody who knows any of them. Many are dying of Covid19. The entire world is reporting. What we do know is that after the incubation time in places opening despite the infection and death rate increasing the shit could hit the fan or as The Stable Genius predicts " it will go away even without a vaccine" Today is day three after opening in the great state of Texas. You don't see Pence with the "15 day" postcard anymore. He's in quarantine. Robert F. Kennedy wrote the forward to a book by a debunked anti-vaccination PhD. Her video is on a site featuring Proud Boys and Alex Jones.[/QUOTE]Not especially many under 50 are dying. This is just a early end for the old (that would die soon anyways) and weak. I continue my life almost as normal.

[QUOTE=Beijing4987;2450233]So what is? Over reported or under reported? Many are dying. Maybe you don't know any of them, or anybody who knows any of them. Many are dying of Covid19. The entire world is reporting. What we do know is that after the incubation time in places opening despite the infection and death rate increasing the shit could hit the fan or as The Stable Genius predicts " it will go away even without a vaccine" Today is day three after opening in the great state of Texas. You don't see Pence with the "15 day" postcard anymore. He's in quarantine. Robert F. Kennedy wrote the forward to a book by a debunked anti-vaccination PhD. Her video is on a site featuring Proud Boys and Alex Jones.[/QUOTE]Don't worry, it is all OK, China will buy whole Europe for bottom price like China is buying up rock bottom priced Brent oil, China will FKK prostitute whole Europe LOL!

[QUOTE=ExpatLover;2450194]Even you will use 1000 I am afraid it will not be enough, how will you avoid some virus that are in her hair to enter your body through your eyes? For me visiting prostitutes in the coming months will be at high risk, but each of us can decide about his own life, for sure the girls will return to P6 as soon as possible but we mongers have the choice, my choice is not before the situation is safe.[/QUOTE]Well with your theory we cannot even go to super market then.

If you want to take precaution, don't monger for awhile till this corona virus thing is over or vaccines are invented.

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2450148] Sorry, I did and't mean to drag you into this squabble, my apologies to you. [/QUOTE]No problem.

[QUOTE=Beijing4987;2450233]So what is? Over reported or under reported? Many are dying. Maybe you don't know any of them, or anybody who knows any of them. Many are dying of Covid19. The entire world is reporting. What we do know is that after the incubation time in places opening despite the infection and death rate increasing the shit could hit the fan or as The Stable Genius predicts " it will go away even without a vaccine" Today is day three after opening in the great state of Texas. You don't see Pence with the "15 day" postcard anymore. He's in quarantine. Robert F. Kennedy wrote the forward to a book by a debunked anti-vaccination PhD. Her video is on a site featuring Proud Boys and Alex Jones.[/QUOTE]People are dying! Run! Hide!

It seems you in favor of shutting the world down in fear from this virus and hiding in the corner wearing masks until we all die of poverty waiting for a vaccine.

In my opinion, Sweden did it right. These lockdowns are absurd. I say the world should open up immediately and use the Sweden model.

But if you have a better solution, I would love to hear it.

The virus is still raging over Europe and the world, and even though in some places is clearly slowing down we don't really know when all this will be over. Maybe next year with the right vaccine, maybe in summer if the virus will mutate in a less dangerous flu, or maybe it's something that will go on for years. Fact is that we live in a diffent world now, and we don't know yet the whole impact that it will have in our lives.

I say that because in these days of quarantine I have different thoughts.

I miss my mongering trips, every day I recall my nights in my favourite red lights districts and how exciting was spending the night going through all the brothels. I really miss those times and I realize they were part of my freedom. But then I think back on how it worked: of course I took precautions, but still it was me walking naked in dirty rooms, not thinking where I put my clothes, if the bed was clean (most of the times low and purple lights don't let you see that), and what happened just before me to the girl I was touching. And there are those times when you loose control and start to lick and touch where you shouldn't.

So. Will I be able to do that again when all will be open? Or the fear is going to stop me, making me unable to enjoy a beautiful girl?

Fun sex always comes with some recklessness, and even if most of the brothels will be able to reopen again (nad I doubt that), fun won't be like before I fear.

All this depend on how much you are willing to risk on your health. COVID 19 looks to be very aggressive, and therefor is able to survive even several days on metallic parts. The girls will not be able to be virus free even they take a shower after each customer, they will never wash their hair 10 times a day or make up 10 times a day. Probably the girls and mongers who will restart their activity will be those who have nothing to loose so also the less careful one, for the girls money is over everything and for the guys sex is over everything.

I will stay out of the P6 scene for long time for sure, going to a prostitute, without licking, being afraid to get sick mat any moment. Probably the service will be also not the top, LU depressed, better to safe the money for better times.

This Virus is a killer, and far more difficult to protect against it compared to HIV.

[QUOTE=Beijing4987;2450233]So what is? Over reported or under reported? Many are dying. Maybe you don't know any of them, or anybody who knows any of them. Many are dying of Covid19. The entire world is reporting. What we do know is that after the incubation time in places opening despite the infection and death rate increasing the shit could hit the fan or as The Stable Genius predicts " it will go away even without a vaccine" Today is day three after opening in the great state of Texas. You don't see Pence with the "15 day" postcard anymore. He's in quarantine. Robert F. Kennedy wrote the forward to a book by a debunked anti-vaccination PhD. Her video is on a site featuring Proud Boys and Alex Jones.[/QUOTE]So you clearly haven't studied communication and media.

Just using the words like 'debunked', 'fake news', fact-checkers', 'Alex Jones', 'conspiracy theory', 'flat earthers', 'proud boys' and 'great state' are all nothing but no-use framing terms with zero meaning to them. And as the flat earth theory was started as a funny joke and later abused for propaganda against other conspiracy theories in the wake of Snowden and Assange, to smear the entire Anonymous movement, half the other words on your list are also a part of that campaign. And people like Michael Moore who was paid out, and later Alex Jones, who is also paid out in order to make every truther into a crazy joke are nothing but diversions. Fact-checkers are always subjective, and so is fake news. A conspiracy theory is the life of an investigative cop 24 hours a day, 356 days a year, but the framing is different, and the society depends on it. News media used to have the same societal function, but in the past 20 years Google, Facebook and others have changed the global media market so much that 99% of journalists have sold their soul to the devils known as PR companies.

OK, that was lecture 101.

But whatever. There is a reason they call it 'herd immunity' when the SHEEP all injects mercury and other poisons into their bodies. Even doctors are brainwashed by university curriculum taught to them at school. Forced upon the institution by named PR companies working for the devil. The old might dollar.

And that was lecture 102.

[QUOTE=TeaInTheSun;2450061]With Obama this crisis would not have been a disaster in US. Biden is not the best and I am worried about how weak can be him in facing with Republicans. Trump could win if he announces the vaccine before November.[/QUOTE]Didn't Obama try to change about healthcare? I'm not American, I may be stupid, but I can't understand about Trump, Reagan before, compare to Obama and furthermore for image of cleverness. Just from Europe of course, but Trump is a worry for us, when we don't laugh.

[QUOTE=Smoothy;2450382]People are dying! Run! Hide!

It seems you in favor of shutting the world down in fear from this virus and hiding in the corner wearing masks until we all die of poverty waiting for a vaccine.

In my opinion, Sweden did it right. These lockdowns are absurd. I say the world should open up immediately and use the Sweden model.

But if you have a better solution, I would love to hear it.[/QUOTE]I was amazed 90% of Swedish didn't go on Easter holidays when no confined and they were allowed, when French thought they were on holidays when confined start, they wanted to move in other more quiet places in France and move virus with them, so government forbid moving for holidays, so most took holidays for nearly 2 months being paid 84% , but staying at home. Virus figures are much more about society behavior than medical level, when Africa manage quite well. Like Americans, French want to go to the beach now and in US or France, when sea is 2 meters depth, really not many to swim.

Under-reported. Every nation has a huge incentive to do so. Nobody wants to be the outlier where most people (per 100 K inhabitants) died.

[QUOTE=Beijing4987;2450233]So what is? Over reported or under reported? Many are dying. Maybe you don't know any of them, or anybody who knows any of them. Many are dying of Covid19. The entire world is reporting. What we do know is that after the incubation time in places opening despite the infection and death rate increasing the shit could hit the fan or as The Stable Genius predicts " it will go away even without a vaccine" Today is day three after opening in the great state of Texas. You don't see Pence with the "15 day" postcard anymore. He's in quarantine. Robert F. Kennedy wrote the forward to a book by a debunked anti-vaccination PhD. Her video is on a site featuring Proud Boys and Alex Jones.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=MrHo;2450267]USA should always be run by Republicans for stability of the world.

Obama looked good and great speech reading ability, but that's surface, he was worst president of all.

As for Trump, who like how he talk or his behavior or phenomenon he spread, it is not nice thing to hear, but he is one of the greatest president in American history and world, he changed things much more than Obama, some for worst, some for good, but moving forward is important and Trump is poison to kill poison. He has his own agenda, but poison like him is required once in awhile to change things in politic.

However, Trump is acting really bad sadly for Corona virus pandemic. He is old guy in his 70's, so it would be wise if he takes some precaution because if he get infected, imagine the damage it cause to economy and other areas.

Also Mike pence. Mike Pence is one of the politician who was behind bringing Toyota and Honda to USA, specifically to Indiana state creating millions of jobs and billion of US dollars to state, but with corona, I don't know why he was acting the way like he was acting like with mask, he kept on working taking measures, visiting place and now he is in place of possible infection and many others in White House. He is smart guy, but when it comes to corona, he begin to talk about religion as he supposed to be very religious guy.[/QUOTE]Italy is doing well especially in the south.

The predicted nightmare don't happened.

Maybe for the sun connected to vitamin D.

Maybe the population more sparse.

Maybe less pollution.

The fucker and. 1 in Lombardia was a runner.

Cvirus when you ran don't stop in the mouth and go direct to pulmonary.

Fucker and. 1 attended a various runnings with severs hundred people.

[QUOTE=Tropea317;2450473]Italy is doing well especially in the south.

The predicted nightmare don't happened.

Maybe for the sun connected to vitamin D.

Maybe the population more sparse.

Maybe less pollution.

The fucker and. 1 in Lombardia was a runner.

Cvirus when you ran don't stop in the mouth and go direct to pulmonary.

Fucker and. 1 attended a various runnings with severs hundred people.[/QUOTE]Italy dig their own grave when they took easy Chinese money, there is reason why China is not in G7, which just by number they can be easily in G7 as ranked number three in G7 after USA and Japan, but they are not in.

What important after or even during corona is solidarity of G7 nations, high ranked official and high rank citizen knows the importance of it, but problem is working classes and below who do not understand importance of it, which lead to many disasters in various areas of society and world. At least top 2 G7 nations namely Japan and USA are totally together as allies, I hope other nations will give more understanding to US global policies.

Meanwhile China is making many moves, illegal insurgent into south China sea, buying up rock bottom brent oil, and soon they will buy weaken Europe at rock bottom price like buying Romanian prostitutes. EU is taking measures, which is good thing because beside Germany, no EU nations are economically strong enough to stand against China, unfortunately.

Yes, corona virus is a killer but better to understand figures than panic or saying bullshits without knowing anything about countries. Many old people in Italy, 80% of deaths are more than 70 yo in France. Western Europe level of life make you live older and older but then many people are weak when disease like this new virus for Western world. Among less than 70 yo who died in France, 67% had diseases making weak versus virus, meaning less than 7% of deaths didn't think they had health problem which don t mean they didn't have, when many fat think they don t have health problem, but their heart can t work well in fat, and when heart is not efficient, usually some organs won't be so strong. On the other hand, most of infected people and children, don't even know they are infected, virus is even less strong than flu or grippe for them, and they are the most dangerous because without knowing, they can give to many, this is R0. Most of infected children were by parents who didn't know they were infected, when which parents would want to infect own children. People run after mask because they are afraid of virus, but except for weak healthy people and health staff, mask are more not to give to others than to protect us, had been one of Italian problems when it started in Italy, in North, but nobody knew back then. Because of confined which is said to have saved more than 60 000 life, only about 6% french were infected and most of them didn't even know, so if You are really healthy, always better to know about own level for everything, then no reason to panic, but if You have relatives: wife, children, old mother, better to be careful for them, and for sure brothels are real playfield for virus. I think quite impossible no virus when they will reopen. But virus show a lot about behavior in countries: Germans and Swedish respect way of life rules, they manage not so bad. Poverty kill in US and France even different cases and in both, some don t respect confined. Really good surprise is so poor with very average medical level Africa, even they have less old people who already died from other previous diseases, but I also think they have better quality for health foods when they have, than Western Europe and US where we are making weak health our children with so bad new US fast foods for health. Better to be a lonely iron healthy to take risk for brothels which may be R05, new Chinese roulette to play.

Few days ago the municipal give in an envelope one mask prechina value 50 eurocent now go up like novavax yesterday, BTW I have Moderna.

That for my mother aged more than 75 years.

Now the government tell pharmacy you have to sell at 50 eurocent plus vat.

But the pharmacy sell at 2,50 euros so this fucker now say we don't have mask.

So no this fucking stupid mask.

Giovanna come back.

I was almost sure she never come back.

She must in be in love with bologna.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2450561]Yes, corona virus is a killer but better to understand figures than panic or saying bullshits without knowing anything about countries. Many old people in Italy, 80% of deaths are more than 70 yo in France. Western Europe level of life make you live older and older but then many people are weak when disease like this new virus for Western world. Among less than 70 yo who died in France, 67% had diseases making weak versus virus, meaning less than 7% of deaths didn't think they had health problem which don t mean they didn't have, when many fat think they don t have health problem, but their heart can t work well in fat, and when heart is not efficient, usually some organs won't be so strong. On the other hand, most of infected people and children, don't even know they are infected, virus is even less strong than flu or grippe for them, and they are the most dangerous because without knowing, they can give to many, this is R0. Most of infected children were by parents who didn't know they were infected, when which parents would want to infect own children. People run after mask because they are afraid of virus, but except for weak healthy people and health staff, mask are more not to give to others than to protect us, had been one of Italian problems when it started in Italy, in North, but nobody knew back then. Because of confined which is said to have saved more than 60 000 life, only about 6% french were infected and most of them didn't even know, so if You are really healthy, always better to know about own level for everything, then no reason to panic, but if You have relatives: wife, children, old mother, better to be careful for them, and for sure brothels are real playfield for virus. I think quite impossible no virus when they will reopen..[/QUOTE]Some European nations including France panicked, that is why this crazy high death rates happened, they did not need to die if you did not panicked. France did not even know when they already had corona virus last December and when they finally realized they had it, France panicked, which lead to this war level death rates and increasing.

It is not just because of just old age and fat people, not all people who passed away in France are old, fat, obesity etc as you like to believe. Many are also young too. It is because you panicked and lost control of the situation and let medical system destroyed, so nothing was functioning to the extent you did not even had enough medical equipment to save life and had to choose who get life support system etc.

It is very France, you do not even know what failed nor admit about it to make improvement.

So, currently, the situation is, I think:

1. Austria -- FKKs might open on 1st July.

2. Switzerland -- on Aug. 31st?

3. Germany?

Also, when will the EU open up travel to it for non-essential purposes (currently EU citizens can come for some specific reasons only; tourism is not one of these yet!

[QUOTE=MrHo;2450745]Some European nations including France panicked, that is why this crazy high death rates happened, they did not need to die if you did not panicked. [/QUOTE]Honestly, I'm very confused by your statements on panic causing higher death rates. These are very general and obscure statements with very little if any scientific fact presented to even remotely support your hypothesis. As a non-scientist myself, I can only ask questions and hope you can answer with some facts, since you seem to draw hard conclusions.

As I understand, France and many other European nations implemented quarantines similar to what was done in much of the world. This negatively impacted economies but I'm not sure of the balance on profits vs loss of life. Also, it seems company directors, brokers, senior staff might be afforded a higher level of protection while their workers would be subjected to the daily grind and exposure to the virus, in turn possibly higher death rates in lower income groups. This is what we see in the US, although there have been a few high profile deaths from the entertainment industry. My opinion, the entertainment industry deaths from COVID seem on par with the drug and alcohol deaths. In this thought, are you stating in fact that reducing population movement and person to person contact caused an increase in COVID deaths?

I believe France and many other European nations responded with increased testing and contact tracking of people presenting with COVID symptoms. Is this a part of the panic? Are you saying that finding infected people, isolating them until they tested negative, finding those whom they had contact with and isolating them until they tested positive caused more deaths? In my opinion it may have identified those who died as a result of COVID contributing complications, causing a recognized increase of COVID deaths.

I believe France, and you get it by now, found hospital staffs over tasked and understocked on PPE and certain medical equipment. Organizations such as Formula One banned together with their top engineers to design, manufacture or repurpose existing equipment for alternate uses to treat those with extreme COVID complications. Is this an example of panic that cost additional lives to be lost?

As far as Life Expectancy, Japan seems to outpace France by about 2 years in 2019,84 years compared to 82 years. I don't have time to research other health issues within the societies to compare who is fattest, has most diabetes, heart disease, etc. As I said before, we are all stuck on this rock floating in space. Unless you are one of the elite that are chosen for space exploration, you or your descendants, relatives, countrymen, etc. Will be here to deal with this together. Everyone can claim their culture saved the world but a long term look at history will prove that it will be multi national multi cultural efforts that get us through this and the next crisis that will come, until we are extinct or move off from Earth.

WHO now says COVID-19 might never go away. Disturbing? Yes, but let's put this into perspective.

Smallpox used to kill 4 million people a month. Translated to today's world population that would be 16 million a month. The disease could be transmitted by kissing as well as other types of contact.

The Wu-Flu will continue to kill 100-200 K people a month worldwide. Unlike smallpox, most of them will be over 70.

When people learnt about smallpox, did they stop having sex? Did they stop going into work? No, they learnt to accept it as one of the risks of life, until a vaccine was developed.

These days we are wusses.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2450884]The Wu-Flu will continue to kill 100-200 K people a month worldwide. Unlike smallpox, most of them will be over 70. When people learnt about smallpox, did they stop having sex? Did they stop going into work? No, they learnt to accept it as one of the risks of life, until a vaccine was developed. These days we are wusses.[/QUOTE]OK, you go first then! Hahaha!

[QUOTE=Chongmal;2450880]As far as Life Expectancy, Japan seems to outpace France by about 2 years in 2019,84 years compared to 82 years.[/QUOTE]The two oldest populations have had two different medical outcomes, and I think it can be mostly be explained by culture. Many Italians visit their ageing parents more than once a week (or live under the same roof as them). Japanese are not connected in this way. Since end of WWII, Japan's single-minded focus on rapid economic growth has eroded family ties and social connections.

[QUOTE]https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/30/world/asia/japan-lonely-deaths-the-end.html

"The extreme isolation of elderly Japanese is so common that an entire industry has emerged around it, specializing in cleaning out apartments where decomposing remains are found."
[/QUOTE][QUOTE]https://thediplomat.com/2020/05/the-trouble-with-linking-covid-19-to-japans-hikikomori/

"The number of hikikomori (social recluses) in Japan has been disputed, ranging from the governments estimate of 1.15 million for individuals aged 15-64 to estimates of 2 million by experts such as Tamaki Saito, a leading psychiatrist on the hikikomori issue. The reasons for becoming a hikikomori are also debated, but it is typically considered a culture-bound syndrome associated with Japans rigid social structure, where conformity is normalized through peer pressure and shame. Thus, social withdrawal is an involuntary escape from the perceived hostility of the outside world."[/QUOTE][QUOTE]
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Science/Japan-s-coronavirus-response-is-flawed-but-it-works

"The Japan model also incorporates a "3 C's" concept. This requires the population to avoid closed spaces with poor ventilation; crowded places; and close-contact settings. It also builds on traditional Japanese behavior patterns and etiquette, such as wearing face masks, and little communal physical contact such as shaking hands or cheek kissing. Animated, loud conversations on packed commuter trains are considered impolite, and avoiding them minimizes infective droplet spray."[/QUOTE]

How many of you will be in the clubs today and partaking sex if something like Oase was at full capacity. Girls and guys both? Assume that Corona situation is just as it is today, still a risk.

I am not in the clubs today not only because they are shut but also because the risk is not acceptable to me. I am getting the sense that many of you don't mind being in the club today if it was open. For example, I do have at least a handful of new and existing sugar babes quite eager to see me (for my money of course) but I am staying away. I assume at least some guys around here will bang a sugar babe as they think the risk is not excessive.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2450884]WHO now says COVID-19 might never go away. Disturbing? Yes, but let's put this into perspective.

Smallpox used to kill 4 million people a month. Translated to today's world population that would be 16 million a month. The disease could be transmitted by kissing as well as other types of contact.

The Wu-Flu will continue to kill 100-200 K people a month worldwide. Unlike smallpox, most of them will be over 70.

When people learnt about smallpox, did they stop having sex? Did they stop going into work? No, they learnt to accept it as one of the risks of life, until a vaccine was developed.

These days we are wusses.[/QUOTE]As I kept on saying from beginning, it is at war level death rates.

[QUOTE=Chongmal;2450880]Honestly, I'm very confused by your statements on panic causing higher death rates. These are very general and obscure statements with very little if any scientific fact presented to even remotely support your hypothesis. As a non-scientist myself, I can only ask questions and hope you can answer with some facts, since you seem to draw hard conclusions.

As I understand, France and many other European nations implemented quarantines similar to what was done in much of the world. This negatively impacted economies but I'm not sure of the balance on profits vs loss of life. Also, it seems company directors, brokers, senior staff might be afforded a higher level of protection while their workers would be subjected to the daily grind and exposure to the virus, in turn possibly higher death rates in lower income groups. This is what we see in the US, although there have been a few high profile deaths from the entertainment industry. My opinion, the entertainment industry deaths from COVID seem on par with the drug and alcohol deaths. In this thought, are you stating in fact that reducing population movement and person to person contact caused an increase in COVID deaths?

I believe France and many other European nations responded with increased testing and contact tracking of people presenting with COVID symptoms..[/QUOTE]Don't be confused, it is all based on death rates, so by numbers and that is what important, to save lives. And unfortunately, due to their lack of management of the situation, France, Italy and Spain failed to do that miserably.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2450970]The two oldest populations have had two different medical outcomes, and I think it can be mostly be explained by culture. Many Italians visit their ageing parents more than once a week (or live under the same roof as them). Japanese are not connected in this way. Since end of WWII, Japan's single-minded focus on rapid economic growth has eroded family ties and social connections.[/QUOTE]Not for all, but for some, the good thing is that Japan managed well from 1945 and 1980 Japan is top, then came second in 1990's and now third after China. The result was delivered.

As for hikikomori etc. You are too intrigued by mass media, it is only minority of population and this is in fact problem for many nations too like many Italian not leaving their mama's home even at middle age partly due to economical situation as well, but I do think living same roof as parent is good thing as long as house is big enough to have privacy. Your mass media brain is in same level as Japan still have ninja and that is why Japan has such a success companies like Toyota, Honda, Sony, Omron, Panasonic, Toshiba, honestly I can keep goes on with few hundred names that are global company that is even almost big as some European nation as single mega company LOL.

Not all nations can be perfect, but China is dangerous nation with communist government. I even suspect they did this virus thing on purpose to some extent to mess up US election because Donald Trump regime cost China not just billions, but trillions of losses every single year his regime is in power in USA. I hope US will be smart enough to vote for republican even though they may find Trump annoying. Vote for his regime, not him.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2450970]The two oldest populations have had two different medical outcomes, and I think it can be mostly be explained by culture. Many Italians visit their ageing parents more than once a week (or live under the same roof as them). Japanese are not connected in this way. Since end of WWII, Japan's single-minded focus on rapid economic growth has eroded family ties and social connections.[/QUOTE]Yes, Italians, also Spanish often live with old parents. French kiss to say Hello. When international flights will start again, rather than driving to FKK, I will fly for a week end to Japan and will kiss everybody I see there, I think there will be a little problem, maybe only girls will be happy, and maybe will find a traditional geisha, I wonder if they kiss.

1 day after end of confined, prostitutes without mask were back in streets, exactly at same place than 2 months ago, like Emily and Ana who returned to home Velbert. Were always escorts under confined. Yesterday, Olga was not really free on my time, she proposed me to come to her private place in evening, but then she became less interesting. Let s see for next time as I sent her.

Comparing Western Europe and Asia don t mean anything, we are so different. Southern Europe, Spanish, Italians and some French are so different than Northern Europeans. What work in Sweden, with people not going on Easter holidays when it was not forbidden, when French thought confined was going on holidays close to the beach.

This killer virus showed a real mirror of society, for black and poor in US, like Brunswick Georgia and sleeping justice for 2 months until video on internet, well organized Germany where restaurants should open soon but with 1,5 meter distance, it will be complicated to respect in brothels and in bed. Greece and Portugal have better figures than Germany, when I would never go to these countries if I was sick and many Portuguese come to France for much higher healthcare. Africa manage not so bad and I m very happy for them, they have enough other diseases.

As a French, despite we are around 35 000 deaths for real figures with people doctors were right to let die quietly at home in their bed with their family, when too old or too weak, but I know what great and difficult job made medical staff and especially nurses who were sometimes insulted by some crazy asking them to stay away not to throw them virus. One owner asked a nurse who rent his flat, to leave. If I was Macron, I put a law during night as politics know how to do to prosecute owner and to give flat to the nurse who takes risk to save life and only with small earning at the end of the month. I would also put a night law about french Sanofi. From wherever they got money for research, but production stay in France without allowance to be sent to US who already paid more expensive to have masks before others. When one here, who have among most clever writings, wrote about same rights for everybody, just a dream, I m a dreamer, I need to dream, but I don t believe anymore about this. Virus showed so well how it killed and will keep on much more poor than rich. US who are down under with virus when not respecting confined, think they deserve vaccine before the others in the world, like for masks when Trump woke up on March. But Sanofi is French and in France and they will have a big problem with French people. When Japan is afraid of China, French are not afraid of US nor China. But I think French would thank Germany, Switzerland, Luxemburg and Austria for 181 beds, I think none moved when they were a bit better died abroad, to free and never miss beds for worst cases. With their help, never missed beds.

[QUOTE=Sebastiane;2450855]So, currently, the situation is, I think:

1. Austria -- FKKs might open on 1st July.

2. Switzerland -- on Aug. 31st?

3. Germany?

Also, when will the EU open up travel to it for non-essential purposes (currently EU citizens can come for some specific reasons only; tourism is not one of these yet![/QUOTE]I think main point is not when they will open. The most important thing is when we will have a service more similar to what we had before lockdown. What pleasure we will find in having a pretty girl with her face covered or if she provides us a HJ with gloves? Everything is very risky now if we take the virus at home. We have to wait for the vaccine or until the virus loses power or spreads very sporadically.

I caught athlete's foot in a club once. I then find out they don't have Lotramin Ultra in Germany. But they have terbenefine so that was about one level weaker than the butenefine ingredient in Lotramin Ultra. But they don't have pseudaphedrine (best treatment for respiratory infections of nose congestion) on the Continent. Closest place that is available in London. But I really don't know how Germans and others on Continental Europe get by without Sudafed. I think with enough Kleenex and Sudafed pretty much any cold or flu is bearable. But then some Zithromax to prevent bacterial infections. It could be the cold humid climate is making it worse for them as it is in New York City.

[QUOTE=MysticalGun;2450411]The virus is still raging over Europe and the world, and even though in some places is clearly slowing down we don't really know when all this will be over. Maybe next year with the right vaccine, maybe in summer if the virus will mutate in a less dangerous flu, or maybe it's something that will go on for years. Fact is that we live in a diffent world now, and we don't know yet the whole impact that it will have in our lives.

I say that because in these days of quarantine I have different thoughts.

I miss my mongering trips, every day I recall my nights in my favourite red lights districts and how exciting was spending the night going through all the brothels. I really miss those times and I realize they were part of my freedom. But then I think back on how it worked: of course I took precautions, but still it was me walking naked in dirty rooms, not thinking where I put my clothes, if the bed was clean (most of the times low and purple lights don't let you see that), and what happened just before me to the girl I was touching. And there are those times when you loose control and start to lick and touch where you shouldn't.

So. Will I be able to do that again when all will be open? Or the fear is going to stop me, making me unable to enjoy a beautiful girl?

Fun sex always comes with some recklessness, and even if most of the brothels will be able to reopen again (nad I doubt that), fun won't be like before I fear.[/QUOTE]

[URL]https://www.wz.de/nrw/quarantaene-vorschrift-fuer-nrw-rueckkehrer-aufgehoben_aid-51111739[/URL]

If you are from an EU country or a few neighbouring countries, there will be no need to go into quarantine if you enter [B]NRW[/B]. Maybe other states will follow suit.

That's another obstacle down, still some more to go before I can return and I can't see any clubs opening before August 31 yet.

[QUOTE=Downandup;2451082][URL]https://www.wz.de/nrw/quarantaene-vorschrift-fuer-nrw-rueckkehrer-aufgehoben_aid-51111739[/URL]

If you are from an EU country or a few neighbouring countries, there will be no need to go into quarantine if you enter [B]NRW[/B]. Maybe other states will follow suit.

That's another obstacle down, still some more to go before I can return and I can't see any clubs opening before August 31 yet.[/QUOTE]I have had to push my trip back to November, hopefully everything would be opened back up by then. My only worry is the cold. I am visiting Cologne.

[quote]I caught athlete's foot in a club once. I then find out they don't have Lotramin Ultra in Germany. But they have terbenefine so that was about one level weaker than the butenefine ingredient in Lotramin Ultra. But they don't have pseudaphedrine (best treatment for respiratory infections of nose congestion) on the Continent. Closest place that is available in London. But I really don't know how Germans and others on Continental Europe get by without Sudafed. I think with enough Kleenex and Sudafed pretty much any cold or flu is bearable. But then some Zithromax to prevent bacterial infections. It could be the cold humid climate is making it worse for them as it is in New York City.[/quote]Answer:

Sorry I am 60+, and never used any of those medicine, in fact I took 0 medicine in the last 5 years. Most of the medicine are also a kind of poison with a lot of side effects if you live a healthy life, I am 183 high, 83 kilos, no smoker, very moderate drinker you don t need to take medicine except you get a bad disease.

[QUOTE=ExpatLover;2451147]Answer:

Sorry I am 60+, and never used any of those medicine, in fact I took 0 medicine in the last 5 years. Most of the medicine are also a kind of poison with a lot of side effects if you live a healthy life, I am 183 high, 83 kilos, no smoker, very moderate drinker you don t need to take medicine except you get a bad disease.[/QUOTE]This is the odd thing that I have been mongering for over 20 years, and I never had any STD, it still is mystery to me especially in FKK where girls fuck about minimum 3 different guys per day and for some girls about 10 different guys per day. Given the environment, it is quite astonishing how FKK is proven to be hygienic as it can be, I do not read or hear some monger got some STD in FKK either, but I hear from some of my friends who got std from some girls they met in club (normal disco) or in normal bar. I think platform wise, FKK and escort are even safer platform than normal clubs or normal bars in general, girls or management are more conscious for these things and take care of it accordingly, which result in our safer sex, but I still say no to condom BJ and only accept BBBJ and thankfully BBBJ is still there if you want it even after the new law.

For sure, guys will shout everywhere they got HIV in RTC where girls are fucked AO by 10 guys per day, or they got chlamydia and brought back at home to wife. Wasn't new law also to protect German wives, but I think Germany failed for this, RTC were still working until virus, some guys even asking and proposing to pay very expensive for AO in normal clubs. I'm pretty sure most of guys will have no problem to bring back killer virus at home, maybe a way for getting rid of old wife, to dream to live with a beloved WG.

This is the odd thing that I have been mongering for over 20 years, and I never had any STD, it still is mystery to me especially in FKK where girls fuck about minimum 3 different guys per day and for some girls about 10 different guys per day. Given the environment, it is quite astonishing how FKK is proven to be hygienic as it can be, I do not read or hear some monger got some STD in FKK either, but I hear from some of my friends who got std from some girls they met in club (normal disco) or in normal bar. I think platform wise, FKK and escort are even safer platform than normal clubs or normal bars in general, girls or management are more conscious for these things and take care of it accordingly, which result in our safer sex, but I still say no to condom BJ and only accept BBBJ and thankfully BBBJ is still there if you want it even after the new law.

Reply: I think like me you know a lot of girls very well, it is a legend to think that the management is taking care of the health of the girls (in fact there is no health control), except in Sakura where there is a doctor coming every week and the girls are free to go to control or not. All the girls know that some of the girls are sick. If you don t sex without condom, if you have no skin problem in your mouth, or dick the risk to get sick is very low by licking or BBBJ. Probably like me you are also very selective by choosing the girls that is also reducing the risk.

Of course, many guys are catching disease with prostitutes but they will mostly not advertise about it.

[QUOTE=TeaInTheSun;2451071]I think main point is not when they will open. The most important thing is when we will have a service more similar to what we had before lockdown. What pleasure we will find in having a pretty girl with her face covered or if she provides us a HJ with gloves? Everything is very risky now if we take the virus at home. We have to wait for the vaccine or until the virus loses power or spreads very sporadically.[/QUOTE]Escorts didn't change services in Paris where many deaths around. Still kissing, natural sucking, some even forget condom after orgasm. When I chat with FKK girls, they don t tell me about mask or gloves, they don t care about virus, they wait for business again. But You are very right, if You are not a lonely iron health warrior, then better to be careful for your health and your relatives, not to bring back bad gift at home, when impossible no virus in FKK land when will reopen, now it will be Chinese roulette with risks. No vaccine yet, not until long time and will be impossible to vaccine everybody. Only 1 infected can spread very fast in brothels, when a girl can infect 10 guys a day, and some guys spending many days per week in whole FKK land. Risky playfield now. Better to know risk.

'A nine-year-old boy died in Marseille last Friday from Kawasaki-like disease and tests have shown that he was infected with coronavirus, his doctors told French media on Friday.

A medical team from La Timone University Hospital in Marseille in southern France said he was the first victim of the disease in France and the second in Europe after the death of a boy in the United Kingdom.

"The child presented symptoms that resembled Kawasaki disease and his serology indicated that he had been in contact with the coronavirus without developing symptoms in the previous weeks," said Professor Fabrice Michel, head of the hospital's pediatric resuscitation service. '.

Big surprise to read Stockholm compete with NYC for worst deaths rate all over the world, Italy, Spain and Paris with suburb are far below. More than 1000 deaths in only Stockholm, Sweden is worst rate in Scandinavia, their choice not to confine, even Swedish seem careful, but figures talk.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2451449]Big surprise to read Stockholm compete with NYC for worst deaths rate all over the world, Italy, Spain and Paris with suburb are far below. More than 1000 deaths in only Stockholm, Sweden is worst rate in Scandinavia, their choice not to confine, even Swedish seem careful, but figures talk.[/QUOTE]What are you talking about?

France has 10 times the Death of Sweden.

Today where are the impressive leaders, where are the things strongly improving over the last decades, where it is safe to go out at any time of the day and night, where it is extremely easy to find a job, where there are high speed trains every where, where 4 G even 5 G is every where, where there are highways every where, where all the child are learning to read and speak. Where. Sorry it is China, I always recommend people to travel around the world, to go 10 km from Paris center, same for Milan, to go to New Delhi, to have a look at Detroit or NY by night, to go to Mexico, Miami in the Hispanic districts by night and so and so on, don t spend your time by looking the news most of them are controlled by extremely healthy business people, who are not living like normal people, better you make your own opinion.

[QUOTE=SobeLizard;2451525]What are you talking about?

France has 10 times the Death of Sweden.[/QUOTE]I was just telling Stockholm with more than 1000 deaths is the worst town with NYC for deaths rate, both not confined because US don't respect confined and Trump lie to US about vaccine, only thinking to be reelected, when many US parts like NYC, poor South, Texas where exploding unemployment about petrol, are down under.

Are you telling China is the new model? Land of politic lies, lack of tolerance, poverty in north, low quality for cheap products. Really not a model for my standards, too low level.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2451049]Not for all, but for some, the good thing is that Japan managed well from 1945 and 1980 Japan is top, then came second in 1990's and now third after China. The result was delivered..[/QUOTE]Japanese economy at that time was admired. Then there was the "Lost Decade". And really some would say three lost decades now. The number of working age people to pensioner is the highest in the world.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2451049]As for hikikomori etc. You are too intrigued by mass media, it is only minority of population and this is in fact problem for many nations too like many Italian not leaving their mama's home even at middle age partly due to economical situation as well, but I do think living same roof as parent is good thing as long as house is big enough to have privacy..[/QUOTE]Italian middle-aged people living at home because they don't make enough money is different than being a social recluse. Every country has social recluses, but I do not think they are 1-2 percent of the population like it is in Japan.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2451711]Japanese economy at that time was admired. Then there was the "Lost Decade". And really some would say three lost decades now. The number of working age people to pensioner is the highest in the world.

Italian middle-aged people living at home because they don't make enough money is different than being a social recluse. Every country has social recluses, but I do not think they are 1-2 percent of the population like it is in Japan.[/QUOTE]Well lost decades as in difficulties getting rid of junk bonds are true and it was due to Japan not killing what we called zombie companies, Japan is not fully capitalistic as west, this made Japan to try to save companies that are no point in saving.

Social recluses are true in every nation as I pointed out and you admit, but Japan is one of few nations who gives name to it hikikomori and bother to count them. So I do think considerable numbers are hidden in other nations too, but I do point this out, Japan comparison to west is so comfortable and convenient, so it gives more comfortable ground to some to stay home, but it is not as you try to brainwash yourself with media articles LOL. Personally, I say this, I think if it make people to stay home and if that make him or her feel safe, I think we should respect them for their own decision. It is not up to me, you or media to point fingers at them.

Pointing fingers are the problem of humanity, look we are mongers, and I cannot say I am openly because I know that society won't accept it even though they are the one who point fingers at mongering and they go home and jerk off to some porn movies on their PC behind locked door. So I would adjust your style of going together with what mass media writes.

Japans economy is ranked third now and not admired as China due to their size, but Japan is country of quality and we will be as we always have been, quality products with honesty. As for China, if that is your style, so be it, but remember the cost you or world going to pay for that due to their self claimed communist. Japan is doing better than any nations with Europe and only Germany can compete in similar level, but good thing is Japan is good ally to all world including all eu nations and others beside not with Korean peninsula and China we don't get along and USA being our best ally. With all the problems Japan may face like other nations also, Japan will always prevail like it has been throughout modern history.

Sunny side is that Japan now is leading culturally admired nation, and this thanks to french sophisticated class among other western nations to put Japanese cultures on top spot light with luxury fashionable position, so we will also work on that as we abundant our craftsmen for years and they deserve spot light.

What else, it is corona thread, so Japan will be one of few leading nation that will be beneficial for solving this virus, so it will be nice if you give some admiration and support to Japan as they deserve. It is only non white g7 nation in the world, already in g5 before that, so of course we always get mass media criticism.

Are you telling China is the new model? Land of politic lies, lack of tolerance, poverty in north, low quality for cheap products. Really not a model for my standards, too low level.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2451686]Are you telling China is the new model? Land of politic lies, lack of tolerance, poverty in north, low quality for cheap products. Really not a model for my standards, too low level.[/QUOTE]My writing is not about Chinese people of course, when they are not free in their country, they are afraid to tell because they know what can happen to them, even they know their politics lie. As a French, not US, I don t have big problem and I'm not afraid about communism, and I even prefer to what happen in US with so many unemployed without health insurance, what happen to Afro Americans at the moment, but lack of freedom, human rights and tolerance, like for Dalai Lama. Must be my social part, when real lying competition between Trump ready for anything for election and China. At least in France, we are not the most powerful, we were never, yes we have too many about 35000 deaths and I'm sad about this when I know how medical staff do their best for us, when nurses are paid 2000 per month and insulted by crazy, when we must kiss them for their care, we even have poverty like in district 93 I know quite well, but at least we are free to think, to tell, even I miss freedom to move since 2 months, but if confined saved more than 60 thousands life, then my big frustration is not so important. But I m sure China is a very interesting for culture country, but a prison, seen from France. When I was put in jail in Switzerland just for fines I refused to pay because of administration expensive charge and because they stole my coyote, I insulted kantonal polizei and jail administration because they didn't respect my rights, after telling me many times to stop, they just put me for 2 days and 1 night in underground very small room with no window.

The UK media are getting very excited about an ongoing trial for a Vaccine created by Oxford University.

In partnership between Oxford University and Astra Zeneca one million doses of vaccine are already being made BEFORE the results of the trial are known.

Of the one million doses of vaccine thirty million will immediately be made available to the UK with September the start date for immunization.

Although early signs are very good the UK Government is "playing down" the possible success of the project but the media is very positive.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2451049]Not for all, but for some, the good thing is that Japan managed well from 1945 and 1980 Japan is top, then came second in 1990's and now third after China. The result was delivered..............[/QUOTE]Japan is the most indebted country in the world with a debt-to-GDP ratio of 235 percent. Who is poorer a man with $10 but owes nothing or a man who has $100 but owes $235?

[QUOTE=MrHo;2451049]Not for all, but for some, the good thing is that Japan managed well from 1945 and 1980 Japan is top, then came second in 1990's and now third after China. The result was delivered.

As for hikikomori etc. You are too intrigued by mass media, it is only minority of population and this is in fact problem for many nations too like many Italian not leaving their mama's home even at middle age partly due to economical situation as well, but I do think living same roof as parent is good thing as long as house is big enough to have privacy. Your mass media brain is in same level as Japan still have ninja and that is why Japan has such a success companies like Toyota, Honda, Sony, Omron, Panasonic, Toshiba, honestly I can keep goes on with few hundred names that are global company that is even almost big as some European nation as single mega company LOL.

Not all nations can be perfect, but China is dangerous nation with communist government. I even suspect they did this virus thing on purpose to some extent to mess up US election because Donald Trump regime cost China not just billions, but trillions of losses every single year his regime is in power in USA. I hope US will be smart enough to vote for republican even though they may find Trump annoying. Vote for his regime, not him.[/QUOTE]Here are some numbers: (GDP is 2018 nominal per World Bank).

Japan GDP $4.97 trillion, population 126 million, per person it is $39,500.

USA: $20.5 trillion, 328 million, per person $62,600.

China: $13.6 trillion, 1. 39 billion people, $9,800 per person.

Germany: $3. 95 trillion, 83 mil people, $47,600 per person.

France: $2.8 trillion, 67 mil people, $41,790 per person.

We can go through many other countries. But right now, Japan GDP per person is slightly less than France, and 37% less than US.

It is a bigger economy than France and even Germany due to larger population but then again it is roughly 1/3 the size of China in terms of economic size obviously because China has the most people in the world. These days China is #1 on Trump and American minds, our biggest problem and rival.

As for companies:

Here are the values of some comapanies (number of shares multiplied by stock price inn case you want to verify the market capitalization).

Apple: $1,360 B.

Google: $950 b.

Amazon: $1210 B.

Microsoft: $1400 B.

FaceBook:$610 B.

Johnson and Johnson $400 B.

Berkshire Hathaway $420 B.

JP Morgan $270 B.

Visa $370 B.

Now some Japanese firms (the ones you listed and a couple of other large ones which are big weights in Topix).

Toyota $190 B.

Honda $42 B.

Sony $78 B.

Omron $13 B.

Panasonic $18 B.

Toshiba $12 B.

Keyence $88 b.

Takeda $59 B.

Entire value of Topix, which is the Japanese market index is $3. 7 trillion. That is less than Apple plus Microsoft plus Amazon.

Other countries:

German companies.

Linde $100 B.

SAP 143 B.

Siemens $83 B.

Allianz $69 B.

Bayer $64 B.

BASF $45 B.

France.

Sanofi $119 B.

LVMH $190 B.

Total $93 B.

L'Oreal $152 B.

Air Liquid $60 B.

Schneider $52 B.

China.

Tencent $520 B.

Alibaba $570 B.

China Construction Bank $195 B.

Ping An Insurance $184 B.

ICBC $250 B.

Meituan Dianping $90 B.

You can see that Alibaba alone is worth more than all the companies you listed.

If you have access to Factset or Bloomberg or any other financial software, you can easily verify them. Even Yahoo or Google finance can help you verify these data.

Cheers.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2451449]Big surprise to read Stockholm compete with NYC for worst deaths rate all over the world, Italy, Spain and Paris with suburb are far below. More than 1000 deaths in only Stockholm, Sweden is worst rate in Scandinavia, their choice not to confine, even Swedish seem careful, but figures talk.[/QUOTE]First, we talk about REGISTERED deaths. Sweden (and Belgium) are good on identifying the real death reason.

Different countries count Corona-deaths in different ways.
In other countries, deaths by Corona are obviously underestimated.

And here is the real reason to many deaths in Stockholm.

Second, most deaths in Stockholm are people from poor immigration ghettos, where people do not understand Swedish and have not been able to assimilate information about Corona.

On the other hand, immunity in Stockholm is now very high - well prepared for "the second wave".

[QUOTE=TheCane;2450928]OK, you go first then! Hahaha![/QUOTE]OK fine, I will TOFTT.

While you are stuck wanking in your apartment, I will be out in the wild sticking my cock between the plump ass cheeks of ten beautiful women.

(If I stop posting here, you will know I am dead and that was a bad idea and not to do it.).

OK fine, I will TOFTT.

While you are stuck wanking in your apartment, I will be out in the wild sticking my cock between the plump ass cheeks of ten beautiful women.

(If I stop posting here, you will know I am dead and that was a bad idea and not to do it.).

I am wondering where you will go 'to stick your cock between the plump ass' knowing than all the FKK are closed and brothel too, sorry but the girls will not care about your death as long you paid them: take it easy life is too short.

[QUOTE=ExpatLover;2451922]
I am wondering where you will go 'to stick your cock between the plump ass' knowing than all the FKK are closed and brothel too, sorry but the girls will not care about your death as long you paid them: take it easy life is too short.[/QUOTE]Salaam ExpatLover, Ramadan ends on Saturday, that is when I will really get my freak on, Corona or no-Corona, I know many girls outside the FKK scene, many of them are going stir-crazy because they have not had sex for two months and have run out of money too.

Germany had only 21 deaths today. Switzerland had only 2 deaths. Austria had ZERO! Even after reopening restaurants and everything. I know I've said some harsh things in the past but right now I couldn't be prouder of these guys, they are fucking crushing it.

[QUOTE=Arnold15;2451902]First, we talk about REGISTERED deaths. Sweden (and Belgium) are good on identifying the real death reason.

Different countries count Corona-deaths in different ways.
In other countries, deaths by Corona are obviously underestimated.

And here is the real reason to many deaths in Stockholm.

Second, most deaths in Stockholm are people from poor immigration ghettos, where people do not understand Swedish and have not been able to assimilate information about Corona.

On the other hand, immunity in Stockholm is now very high - well prepared for "the second wave".[/QUOTE]I'm sure you are right: poverty kill also in Stockholm, like in NYC, or in Paris suburb. Today, when driving from job to home, I was laughing about what I read here when hearing only 28 deaths in Ivory cost with 25 millions people, nobody, not even Austria nor Germany can compete with such medical efficiency. I think next time I will need healthcare, I will run there rather than going to Paris hospitals which are so low level compare to Africa with less than 3000 deaths for 1,3 billion people and I'm very happy for them. When only Germany have 6000 deaths.

[QUOTE=Turgid;2451879]Japan is the most indebted country in the world with a debt-to-GDP ratio of 235 percent. Who is poorer a man with $10 but owes nothing or a man who has $100 but owes $235?[/QUOTE]I am tired of giving economic lesson in sex forum for those who has lower understanding of economy with lower education LOL.

Look, I give you that you are right to some extent, but you are so shallow like west nations, the trick and deeper fact is this: In G7 nations, Japan is only country who can decide when to print our own currency because central bank of Japan is owned solely by Japanese government and Japan, it is like high end 90 %, so we decide when to print our currency. This is not the case for other G7 nations like EU system and also US federal reserve is not really federal is it? I am not going into that here about US federal reserve because I cannot be bother to explain to you.

Also japanse bond is backed by solely by Japanese yen, so we are find there too, and there will be time mass media may attack Japan hired by financial institution for their short position, but as above deeper insight into what we are doing, it does not matter fundamentally.

Each time, when there is world crisis, safe currencies goes up also gold and Japanese yen become strong because foreign money escape into japanese yen for its safety and this shows how safe our currencies are and also our bond back by our currency solely. So think for once carefully LOL! And hey, it is nice foreign intelligent bankers are escaping into yen, but we don't want our yen to be strong, we want our yen to be weak currency as Japan is big exporters with all our mega companies, so it benefit us more if yen is weaker, but this yen being strong in crisis is result of our credibility in international financial institions even though we get criticize, they do the opposite because they know the truth. Like it is usual that bank says opposite, bank say sell, you buy, they say buy, you sell LOL.

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2451897]Here are some numbers: (GDP is 2018 nominal per World Bank).

Japan GDP $4.97 trillion, population 126 million, per person it is $39,500.

USA: $20.5 trillion, 328 million, per person $62,600.

China: $13.6 trillion, 1. 39 billion people, $9,800 per person.[/QUOTE]Do you have at least some university degree or some stupid college or do you even work in proper white collar job? LOL If you think Japan is smaller than France and you must be taking heroine LOL. They are not even bigger than Germany. GDP per person, who cares about each person, we are talking country here.

World change long ago and it is not only west who has power like in 19th century, so wake up to 21st century or even 20th century and stop living in glory of 19th century Europe LOL.

However, there is nation like China who is dangerous to be granted strong economy, so USA and ally should do something about this.

And hey! It is France who made laboratory in Wuhan China, this mentality of yours that west is dominating economy which is few centuries out dated dig their own grave in Europe. It is France who made that Chinese virus lab in Wuhan China and fired back on them. France is known for arrogance and ignorance and look what happened to them now, they did it to themselves and to world also with this corona virus. France and China did this corona virus killing through this failed lab in Wuhan China they created with their limited technology.

Wow you are a totally clueless , aren't you, Ho? I told you the source is world bank and IMF. Easy to look up. Or use Bloomberg or Fact set. I doubt you even know what they are. Your language skills are abysmal and despite your constant empty bragging that you have money, I bet 80% of the people posting here are richer than you are but have way too much class to brag as you do. Your education or lack of it is quite evident from your fourth rate comprehension skills. Japan was something to be reckoned with a while ago. Now, it is sliding back. Too bad you can't understand per capita and what it means. Read and weep but the reality is that France' per capita GDP is above Japan now and Germany is 15% higher and we are much much higher than Japan's, and let me repeat, those are per capita (we know you are slow witted, it helps to repeat for your benefit). As for your companies, all the ones you listed have a combined market capitalization less than that of Alibaba. Do you even understand when I told you that Microsoft plus Amazon plus Apple together. Just three companies. Have more market capitalization than the entire Japanese market? Do you know what that even means or know how to verify? Like a retarded kid, your modus operandi is to blurt out insults from the safe space of a key board but that doesn't impress anyone.

This is for the benefit of other members.

[URL]https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD[/URL]

Predictable I guess? Reported this morning in Bild.

May 19,2020 - 05:16 am.

Is the corona virus now destroying the oldest trade in the world?

In view of the corona-related closure of prostitution facilities, a group of members of the Bundestag from the Union and the SPD is calling for a sex ban and exit programs for prostitutes.

The shutdown for prostitution imposed during the Corona crisis should not be relaxed, they demand in a letter to the heads of government of the federal states, available to the German press agency. Otherwise they fear foci of infection.

"It is obvious that prostitution would have the effect of an epidemiological super-spreader. Sexual acts are usually not compatible with social distancing," the paper says. When tracing infection chains, contact with prostitutes is likely to be kept secret.

The letter was signed by 16 parliamentarians, among them the trade unionist Leni Breymaier (60, SPD), the deputy head of the Union faction and former health minister Hermann Grhe (59, CDU) and the medical doctor Karl Lauterbach (57, SPD). There are 33,000 officially registered prostitutes in Germany and, according to representatives, up to 400,000 in total.

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2451897]Here are some numbers: (GDP is 2018 nominal per World Bank).

Japan GDP $4.97 trillion, population 126 million, per person it is $39,500.

USA: $20.5 trillion, 328 million, per person $62,600.

China: $13.6 trillion, 1. 39 billion people, $9,800 per person.

Germany: $3. 95 trillion, 83 mil people, $47,600 per person.

France: $2.8 trillion, 67 mil people, $41,790 per person..[/QUOTE]So, your figures show, German or French people have higher level of earning than Japanese when China compete with Romania for this point. Fortunately for me and from my parents, I learned at school to be able to work to make much more than this French average level of earning, why I can pay my holidays, weekly games and escorts on week days. You have to know main difference between French and German levels of earning is much more expensive charge and tax in France. I'm pretty sure if you take people earning at the end of the month + charge and tax, then France may be higher than Germany and this is the big problem for France in world competition, versus cheap China, India, even US have many cheap products like cars, but you can't compare for quality. Western Europe have highest standards for quality, why I don't care much about China, I'm not afraid like Japan or US, they increased too fast, they already started falling before virus and I really wish Western Europe will learn about not reliable, cheap, low level products, when we are much higher level than this. We need more quality for our health and safety. From what I learned, mathematics tell each problem have at least 1 solution, so You just have to be able to find it and better for this to be able to understand hypothesis, about so narrow I read here, when I find Africa and of course there are explanations, but I find, with their poverty, no medical, but we should learn from them when we can compare with their brothers in US where also warm weather in Louisiana or Georgia, but what they became. I really think this virus really show who we are: rich, poor, our way of life with our diseases, Africa with young population, rich world with more and more old people. As tell mathematics, there is always explanation.

For my part, when I spent more than 100 days per year, when I know some who are 6 days per week in FKK land, moving between Germany, Switzerland and Spain, I don t miss brothels, I don t like brothels atmosphere, what I see, some girls know how it s sometimes unpleasant for me, as I always said: I don t care about GT or Globe, only brothels fuck factory full of jealousy and lies, only World is a bit different for me, because more beautiful, when my mother made me only for beauty, I m only interested by beauty and I followed some changing club, because I don t care about clubs, I m not stuck to one, when I followed Megan in 3 different clubs for 5 years and she thank a bad guy like me she trust for Globe, not so bad for a bad French when a German told her to stay at Sharks. Fortunately I found more cosy with more chic atmosphere for me like Amesia, Freubad can also and my new playfield with Slavian, fresh real woman types in Catalunya and there You feel on holidays even on Winter, when prostitute behavior with no chic, no charm, no elegance, rubbing on You or touching your dick, or even playing with your hair or touching your face, or telling: I want You, are so boring, I don t need this low level when most are not even pretty enough, not my level to enjoy. Even only 4 meetings with 3 only with Olga. Ru on last week, since my last FKK visit on 14 March, I don t miss much, I miss much more ski and really wish for extreme free ride for my only day of the year, on next week end, even over 100 kms, and really look forward my climbing, couldn't make oxygen on this Winter, so I will extend my season. I also saw much prettier girls in Paris where not more than 30% have mask, than in brothels. Beauties worth more than brothels for me, and princess beauties usually appreciate my manners with women.

[QUOTE=MrBluenose;2452045]Predictable I guess? Reported this morning in Bild.

May 19,2020 - 05:16 am.

Is the corona virus now destroying the oldest trade in the world?

In view of the corona-related closure of prostitution facilities, a group of members of the Bundestag from the Union and the SPD is calling for a sex ban and exit programs for prostitutes.

The shutdown for prostitution imposed during the Corona crisis should not be relaxed, they demand in a letter to the heads of government of the federal states, available to the German press agency. Otherwise they fear foci of infection.

"It is obvious that prostitution would have the effect of an epidemiological super-spreader. Sexual acts are usually not compatible with social distancing," the paper says. When tracing infection chains, contact with prostitutes is likely to be kept secret.

The letter was signed by 16 parliamentarians, among them the trade unionist Leni Breymaier (60, SPD), the deputy head of the Union faction and former health minister Hermann Grhe (59, CDU) and the medical doctor Karl Lauterbach (57, SPD). There are 33,000 officially registered prostitutes in Germany and, according to representatives, up to 400,000 in total.[/QUOTE]For sure, when you look the crowd, virus in brothels will kill and also relatives around. German R0 should have problems.

[QUOTE=MrBluenose;2452045]The letter was signed by 16 parliamentarians, among them the trade unionist Leni Breymaier (60, SPD), the deputy head of the Union faction and former health minister Hermann Grhe (59, CDU) and the medical doctor Karl Lauterbach (57, SPD). There are 33,000 officially registered prostitutes in Germany and, according to representatives, up to 400,000 in total.[/QUOTE]This is my take on this, Leni is so envious about other women, who manage to get paid for sex, while I would pay big money for not having sex with her! Karl is clearly impotent and Hermann, hey, I think I saw him wrapped in a bathrobe in a FKK on the way to 'zimmer'! LOL.

They will not ban prostitution.

Rock.

[QUOTE=MrBluenose;2452045]Predictable I guess? Reported this morning in Bild.

May 19,2020 - 05:16 am.

Is the corona virus now destroying the oldest trade in the world?

In view of the corona-related closure of prostitution facilities, a group of members of the Bundestag from the Union and the SPD is calling for a sex ban and exit programs for prostitutes.

The shutdown for prostitution imposed during the Corona crisis should not be relaxed, they demand in a letter to the heads of government of the federal states, available to the German press agency. Otherwise they fear foci of infection.

"It is obvious that prostitution would have the effect of an epidemiological super-spreader. Sexual acts are usually not compatible with social distancing," the paper says. When tracing infection chains, contact with prostitutes is likely to be kept secret.

The letter was signed by 16 parliamentarians, among them the trade unionist Leni Breymaier (60, SPD), the deputy head of the Union faction and former health minister Hermann Grhe (59, CDU) and the medical doctor Karl Lauterbach (57, SPD). There are 33,000 officially registered prostitutes in Germany and, according to representatives, up to 400,000 in total.[/QUOTE]I will be damned when corona is over and I go to FKK and I bump into FKK girls name "corona" LOL!

[QUOTE=MrBluenose;2452045]Is the corona virus now destroying the oldest trade in the world?

In view of the corona-related closure of prostitution facilities, a group of members of the Bundestag from the Union and the SPD is calling for a sex ban and exit programs for prostitutes.[/QUOTE]Wait and see like everything else. A permanent ban seems extreme. But I could envision them extending the date for restrictions every month until there is a vaccine, which could effectively be a ban for 1-2 years. People will still find ways to partake underground. But if outbreaks occurs via these underground activities, the politicians can at least say that they did everything in their power to prevent them.

Austria looks to be opening brothels July 1 (so says Goldentime Vienna). It would be a shame for Germany to miss out on all that tourism money coming in.

[QUOTE=MrBluenose;2452045]Predictable I guess? Reported this morning in Bild.

May 19,2020 - 05:16 am.

Is the corona virus now destroying the oldest trade in the world?

In view of the corona-related closure of prostitution facilities, a group of members of the Bundestag from the Union and the SPD is calling for a sex ban and exit programs for prostitutes.

The shutdown for prostitution imposed during the Corona crisis should not be relaxed, they demand in a letter to the heads of government of the federal states, available to the German press agency. Otherwise they fear foci of infection.

"It is obvious that prostitution would have the effect of an epidemiological super-spreader. Sexual acts are usually not compatible with social distancing," the paper says. When tracing infection chains, contact with prostitutes is likely to be kept secret.

The letter was signed by 16 parliamentarians, among them the trade unionist Leni Breymaier (60, SPD), the deputy head of the Union faction and former health minister Hermann Grhe (59, CDU) and the medical doctor Karl Lauterbach (57, SPD). There are 33,000 officially registered prostitutes in Germany and, according to representatives, up to 400,000 in total.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=MrHo;2451983]I am tired of giving economic lesson in sex forum for those who has lower understanding of economy with lower education LOL.

Look, I give you that you are right to some extent, but you are so shallow like west nations, the trick and deeper fact is this: In G7 nations, Japan is only country who can decide when to print our own currency because central bank of Japan is owned solely by Japanese government and Japan, it is like high end 90 %, so we decide when to print our currency. This is not the case for other G7 nations like EU system and also US federal reserve is not really federal is it? I am not going into that here about US federal reserve because I cannot be bother to explain to you.

Also japanse bond is backed by solely by Japanese yen, so we are find there too, and there will be time mass media may attack Japan hired by financial institution for their short position, but as above deeper insight into what we are doing, it does not matter fundamentally.

Each time, when there is world crisis, safe currencies goes up also gold and Japanese yen become strong because foreign money escape into japanese yen for its safety and this shows how safe our currencies are and also our bond back by our currency solely. So think for once carefully LOL! And hey, it is nice foreign intelligent bankers are escaping into yen, but we don't want our yen to be strong, we want our yen to be weak currency as Japan is big exporters with all our mega companies, so it benefit us more if yen is weaker, but this yen being strong in crisis is result of our credibility in international financial institions even though we get criticize, they do the opposite because they know the truth. Like it is usual that bank says opposite, bank say sell, you buy, they say buy, you sell LOL.[/QUOTE]The issue is not that Japan can print its own money the issue is that if Japan could not print its own money like most of the world's countries it would, in spite of the high work ethic of the people, be in much greater financial difficulty than it already is.

Additionally, while the bank of Japan says that individual financial assets in Japan reached JPY1,630 trn ($15.85 trn) as of March 31,2014, in fact Japanese households had one of the lowest savings rates in the OECD -- 0. 9% of household income, which was 23rd of 28 countries. Indeed, about 30% of households have no savings. Japan being referred to as an economic powerhouse today is shallow hype, what good is being a financial powerhouse if the people are poor.

I wonder if the questioning at the port of entry will get any tougher?

Officer: What is your name sir?

Passenger: Mr. Ho.

Officer: And why do you have so much cash with you Mr. Ho?

Passenger: Because I am going to the FKK sauna clubs, and the girls never have change!

Officer: LOLOLOLOLOL!

Still one of the funniest things I have read on this site hahaha!

[QUOTE=MrBluenose;2452045]Predictable I guess? Reported this morning in Bild.

May 19,2020 - 05:16 am.

Is the corona virus now destroying the oldest trade in the world?

In view of the corona-related closure of prostitution facilities, a group of members of the Bundestag from the Union and the SPD is calling for a sex ban and exit programs for prostitutes.

The shutdown for prostitution imposed during the Corona crisis should not be relaxed, they demand in a letter to the heads of government of the federal states, available to the German press agency. Otherwise they fear foci of infection.

"It is obvious that prostitution would have the effect of an epidemiological super-spreader. Sexual acts are usually not compatible with social distancing," the paper says. When tracing infection chains, contact with prostitutes is likely to be kept secret.

The letter was signed by 16 parliamentarians, among them the trade unionist Leni Breymaier (60, SPD), the deputy head of the Union faction and former health minister Hermann Grhe (59, CDU) and the medical doctor Karl Lauterbach (57, SPD). There are 33,000 officially registered prostitutes in Germany and, according to representatives, up to 400,000 in total.[/QUOTE]I once played World of Warcraft and there was this bug that made a disease spread like wildfire. What me and some friends did was to attain the bug, and release it on our enemies on our server. Greatest weapon of all time in any game I have played. You just have to get the disease, and get to the right place afterwards. Games can really be of great learning!

Also, many politicians are boomers. And the boomers are at great risk in all of this. Just look at Biden and Trump. They are both so old that this entire pandemic could turn out to be a blessing. No need to choose the lesser of two evils.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2451986]However, there is nation like China who is dangerous to be granted strong economy, so USA and ally should do something about this.[/QUOTE]Well, not China. Most Chinese people are extremely nice and very friendly. It is the entire CCP propaganda arm and fascist politics that frightens me. And one can probably soon start to compare them with NSDAP, since it is just getting worse and worse and worse since Xi took over with his warring and neo-facist take on everything.

Generalizing it as being China, would be like generalizing all westerners as being Donald Trump.

[QUOTE=Arnold15;2451902]First, we talk about REGISTERED deaths. Sweden (and Belgium) are good on identifying the real death reason.[/QUOTE]Belgium also include suspected Covid deaths in the total number and that is why it is much higher than other countries.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2451986]They are not even bigger than Germany. GDP per person, who cares about each person, we are talking country here.[/QUOTE]OK you're right. So according to you, China kicks Japan's bony ass: 13.6 vs 5.

[QUOTE=RockyV;2452142]Belgium also include suspected Covid deaths in the total number and that is why it is much higher than other countries.[/QUOTE]France tell 28000 deaths in news, I write 35000 with deaths let by doctors quietly at home, from medical information, at least I m honest. US will go soon to 100 000 if they don't all take chloroquine. How is it possible to elect a so crazy and dangerous.

[QUOTE=MaxSquatter;2452107]Austria looks to be opening brothels July 1 (so says Goldentime Vienna). It would be a shame for Germany to miss out on all that tourism money coming in.[/QUOTE]But maybe, German politics don't want to have many more deaths. Many guys in brothels don't seem so healthy, and can be brought back at home. Germany is not in high ranking for tourism, when France is number 1 when 15 times less large than US. Spain is number 3 for tourism with much more income than Germany, so many Germans spend holidays in Spain, but Spain may not open borders on this Summer. We don't know yet for France.

[QUOTE=BigBuddy69;2452151]OK you're right. So according to you, China kicks Japan's bony ass: 13.6 vs 5.[/QUOTE]Why you are so naively low educated sticking to things in just black and white, do you know that a lot of things in politic and economy is rather grey like most of things in life? China as capacity of country beat Japan, they are ranked second now in the world due to their quantity and Japan is guilty for that as we are one of the main nation who gave them technology.

However, it is not all black and white, Japan unlike most nations, we have so much actual cash cows, I won't name all companies, but whether it is sony, panasonic, toshiba, mitsubishi ufj bank, mitsui sumitomo bank or uniqlo or omron or cannon and so on lists are endless as I hope you least know, these are all Japanese companies and most of our companies are all in top 10 or top 5 in the world in all sectors of different industries, where as China only has few of that at the moment and mostly are still factories, as they are called the factories of world and hey usa trying to pull out, Japan is trying to pull out and hopefully rest of world including France who made this failed virus laboratory in wuhan China too. It is just quantity power of China, look at that nation look their insane size and hey look at Japan, it is tiny island nation who got to top fast because we are organized, honest, disciplined, good refined sophisticated culture (this also France and Italy too) and most importantly intelligent. But size did beat Japan, but like in most things in life it is matter of time, I hope for world. China is not safe due to their communist government, people are OK, but tend to cheat a lot, so let see if that culture change, they are opposite of how japanese people are, we are honest being who focus on quality that got us to top.

At least this is what most intellect of the world knows as we have usually very good reputation, but not on this sex forum LOL! It must be that most of the guys here who are so anti Japan which is first time I heard beside in China and Korea (some of them are anti Japan due to their public education), you guys must be got your education from romanian prostitutes LOL! Your brain and understanding of the world is in same level as romanian prostitutes LOL! This is true as your thinking is too shallow, but radical LOL! Look deep behind things in life because it has surfaces.

[QUOTE=Turgid;2452108]The issue is not that Japan can print its own money the issue is that if Japan could not print its own money like most of the world's countries it would, in spite of the high work ethic of the people, be in much greater financial difficulty than it already is.

Additionally, while the bank of Japan says that individual financial assets in Japan reached JPY1,630 trn ($15.85 trn) as of March 31,2014, in fact Japanese households had one of the lowest savings rates in the OECD -- 0. 9% of household income, which was 23rd of 28 countries. Indeed, about 30% of households have no savings. Japan being referred to as an economic powerhouse today is shallow hype, what good is being a financial powerhouse if the people are poor.[/QUOTE]Well some low educated mentioned about national debt, so I explained what is going on. Again we are the only G7 nation who can print our own money at our will owning our own central bank ourselves and our bond is solely backed by japanese yen so we decide, this is most important when it comes to country management. We wanted that after ww2 and we appeal to interest of USA and we managed to convince USA who are our best friend and ally.

As for people. This is the system and you are half true, Japanese government sees citizen as foot soldiers LOL this is reality of it if you look deep into what is going on, it is going on due to immigration though, someone mentioned about decrease in population and this is problem in all G7 nations, people are smarter so don't make kids, so most G7 nations went for immigration long ago beside Japan, but we too are opening our door, but we are learning from mistakes of EU immigration and we are trying to choose better. But people live good here, there is no poverty almost in Japan, I mean anyone who has been here know that we rarely have homeless and if there are it is by choice. They can get 1500 USD per month if they request it wit free medical care too. But people live good here. And other thing, Japan keep money in the company and country and this is how it should be, we don't believe few individual take all the billions and often take off like what happened in many western nations like France, many french billionaire people immigrate to other nations and just do business in France, we don't want this here. There are many billionaire in Japan too, I mean look at all the mega companies in Japan, we have the most prestigious companies in the world, we actually do business here not just money game like most western nations, these are solid product manufacturing companies, and behind them are owners, but even with high tax here, they stayed in Japan, they did not take off like in western nations even though they could, it is cultural thing, it is called mega rich giving back to society and country, maybe west should learn philosophy from us LOL!

However, quality of life in Japan in other aspect like hygiene, medical level, shopping, food, safety, infrastructure, people are polite etc. Are much higher in Japan than western nations. Anybody who has been here knows that.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2452127]Well, not China. Most Chinese people are extremely nice and very friendly. It is the entire CCP propaganda arm and fascist politics that frightens me. And one can probably soon start to compare them with NSDAP, since it is just getting worse and worse and worse since Xi took over with his warring and neo-facist take on everything.

Generalizing it as being China, would be like generalizing all westerners as being Donald Trump.[/QUOTE]This I agree, it is their government and people who unfortunately got brainwashed by them, but some of people are bravely fighting back even though it often lead to false arrest or even disappearance. It is fault of Japan and UK as we began fighting in 1940's there and communist party then who were so weak and almost got defeated by chinese government run into mountain to hide during war then after war is finished when China was weak, these communist came back and took over. So it is partly fault of Japan and UK and I am one of few japanese who admit that.

As for Donald Trump, he beside all the not fair pressure, he is pro Japan by the way LOL. You have to look deep into his regime and don't be fool by his foolish act, it is act for election, his government structure is most intelligent and good ever has been, like when I saw Mike pence being appointed as vice president of USA, then I knew what is going on behind, it is good regime and I won't explain here as I am not educator of sex forum low educated individuals LOL! Don't judge donald trump on his foolish cover, it is just a front. But yeah he is hilariously annoying sometimes LOL. Japan manage him fine and we like him in general and his respectful daughter. Basically it is very anglo saxon jewish regime and it is fine, we get along with them beside all it is not fair claim when he need investment in USA, which we happily do to serve both of our interest, donald trump is like that on just surface, behind close door, he is fair enough guy, he knows where is right landing point it.

Even during corona, it is not just for election he is attacking WHO, if it is not trump there would not be truth being revealed on most corrupt WHO which is CHO, Chinese Health Organization lead by ethiopian whom his nations is bought by China, so he has to listen to China. Taiwan not allowed to join WHO as observer? Whatta hell is that political discrimination? And since most of sex forum guys are low educated as romanian prostitutes and nobody mentioned Taiwan, I would say Taiwan did best job at corona handling, even better than Japan, and Taiwan has been warning WHO since last December, but WHO ignored Taiwan because of chinese pressure. Really shame on WHO and that ehiopian need to be fired.

It is franc who built this lab in China, China hide the truth and also WHO, so corona virus pandemic is collaboration job done by France, China and WHO. Truth won't be revealed, but this is fact of how the foundation of this whole problem started.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2452213]France tell 28000 deaths in news[/QUOTE][I]Haut les coeurs![/I] I checked the stats and yesterday the total deaths went from 28,239 to 28,022 -- a rise of only -0. 77%.

When I first read that, I was thrilled, but on second thoughts I'm not sure I like the idea of Coronavirus victims bashing their way out of coffins and shambling around Notre Dame at night, getting very bitey, etc. Believe me, sometimes death is the better option.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2452126]I once played World of Warcraft and there was this bug that made a disease spread like wildfire. What me and some friends did was to attain the bug, and release it on our enemies on our server. Greatest weapon of all time in any game I have played. You just have to get the disease, and get to the right place afterwards. Games can really be of great learning![/QUOTE]
Well if you like to like to play at being Professor "Bat-Woman" Zhengli, you can get games for the phone like Plague and Pandemic, and also boardgames.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2452126]
Also, many politicians are boomers. And the boomers are at great risk in all of this. Just look at Biden and Trump. They are both so old that this entire pandemic could turn out to be a blessing. No need to choose the lesser of two evils.[/QUOTE]
Yes there is. I endorse Joe Biden for President of the United States, because there is no chance he will ever remember the nuclear codes. Seriously the greatest threat we face, it makes COVID-19 look like a bat's balls by comparison.

[QUOTE=MaxSquatter;2452107]Austria looks to be opening brothels July 1 (so says Goldentime Vienna). It would be a shame for Germany to miss out on all that tourism money coming in.[/QUOTE]I expected more from FKK lobbyists in Germany. Austria it is!

[QUOTE=MrHo;2452239]China as capacity of country beat Japan, they are ranked second now in the world due to their quantity and Japan is guilty for that as we are one of the main nation who gave them technology.[/QUOTE]Maybe your country felt the need to be forgiven after some little missteps like Nanking and Unit 731?

[QUOTE=DasBooty;2452317]I expected more from FKK lobbyists in Germany. Austria it is![/QUOTE]Is lobbying legal in Germany and Austria?

If so such lobbyist have good set of feminist activist demonstrating over weekend front of his house calling him the menace of all female LOL!

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2452268][I]Haut les coeurs![/I] I checked the stats and yesterday the total deaths went from 28,239 to 28,022 -- a rise of only -0. 77%.

When I first read that, I was thrilled, but on second thoughts I'm not sure I like the idea of Coronavirus victims bashing their way out of coffins and shambling around Notre Dame at night, getting very bitey, etc. Believe me, sometimes death is the better option.


Well if you like to like to play at being Professor "Bat-Woman" Zhengli, you can get games for the phone like Plague and Pandemic, and also boardgames.


Yes there is. I endorse Joe Biden for President of the United States, because there is no chance he will ever remember the nuclear codes. Seriously the greatest threat we face, it makes COVID-19 look like a bat's balls by comparison.[/QUOTE]France made that failed virus laboratory in China with their limited technology and know how in area of medical field, so they dig their own grave and now being hysteric about what France have done to themselves together with China and WHO.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2450970]The two oldest populations have had two different medical outcomes, and I think it can be mostly be explained by culture. Many Italians visit their ageing parents more than once a week (or live under the same roof as them). Japanese are not connected in this way. Since end of WWII, Japan's single-minded focus on rapid economic growth has eroded family ties and social connections.[/QUOTE]Concerning your obsession with hikikomori and recluse, I forgot to add one thing. You are so ignorant as usual and let me explain you why.

Howard Hughes, I think it is fair to say, he is most recluse of all time and hey without his intelligence and existence, we would not be flying in the way that we are flying today, he contributed vastly for aviation world, so that we get to fly to Germany and fuck girls as we choose to, so there is some positive recluse from most extreme recluse or hikikomori world that you have such negative opinion about.

I am not finger pointer for other people, I mean I am hentai myself flying half the way around world just to fuck girls, so who am I to point fingers to recluse or whoever, but what I do trash talks are those who point fingers at people without knowing what they are talking about with limited education and intelligence, not even knowing you are actually benefiting from people you are pointing finger at.

Because of Howard Hughes the most recluse hikikomori of all time, we mongers would not be flying to German FKK or where-ever, so instead of pointing finger, be grateful and admit your lack of intelligence and knowledge. You benefit from recluse without even knowing it LOL.

I bet German lobbyists will come through. There's lots of clubs and lots of big money in this industry there. When they see Austria taking away market share they will get their act together.

[QUOTE=DasBooty;2452317]I expected more from FKK lobbyists in Germany. Austria it is![/QUOTE]

Link to DW article about permanent closures here.

[URL]https://www.dw.com/en/german-lawmakers-call-for-buying-sex-to-be-made-permanently-illegal/a-53504221?maca=en-EMail-sharing[/URL]

[QUOTE=Clodius1;2452425]Link to DW article about permanent closures here.

[URL]https://www.dw.com/en/german-lawmakers-call-for-buying-sex-to-be-made-permanently-illegal/a-53504221?maca=en-EMail-sharing[/URL][/QUOTE]We had to anticipate that some people would use this virus as an excuse for accomplishing what they've always wanted anyway. A permanent ban of the FKKs!

Denmark, Finland and Norway are debating whether to maintain travel restrictions on Sweden but ease them for other countries as they nervously eye their Nordic neighbour's higher coronavirus death toll.

As of Wednesday, 3,831 people had died from Covid-19 in Sweden, a country with a population of 10 m. Denmark, Finland and Norway — which each have about 5 m inhabitants — have recorded death tolls of 551,301 and 233, respectively. Swedish authorities argued that a lockdown and closed borders would bring relatively few benefits at a high cost to public health and the economy.

The FT tracker shows that Sweden had 6. 4 deaths per million people 61 days after its death rate first climbed above 0. 1 deaths per million. That contrasts with the UK's 6. 2 deaths per million at the same stage, Italy's 5.5, and Spain's 4.

Denmark is weighing whether to open its borders with Germany and Norway but not to Sweden. Several opposition parties, which have a majority in Denmark's parliament, have said the borders need to be opened to help the country's tourism industry but that the high death rate in Sweden was worrying.

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2452018]Easy to look up. Or use Bloomberg or Fact set. I doubt you even know what they are.[/QUOTE]I'm curious if any of these financial software is free. If not, is it one time charged or annual subscription? How much does it cost? Can anyone just download them? What do they provide that Yahoo Finance doesn't cover? Which one would you use or recommend?

[QUOTE=MoneySign;2452440]I'm curious if any of these financial software is free. If not, is it one time charged or annual subscription? How much does it cost? Can anyone just download them? What do they provide that Yahoo Finance doesn't cover? Which one would you use or recommend?[/QUOTE]Sorry, it was a bit of a showing off on my part, my apologies. I said those words because Ho is constantly engaging in his absurd Japan chest thumping and insulting other members about their education which is galling as he writes borderline nonsensical stuff. Coming to those two specific software, no they are not free. Both cost north of $20 grand for annual subscription. Invariably, your employer would pay for it if your job requires using those software tools. I currently use one of them, have used both in the past and in my view, Yahoo Finance is just fine for most regular investors and one needs Bloomberg or Factset only if you are financial markets or related areas as part of your employment.

Bloomberg is available on app stores (Android and IOs) for mobile downloads and even the free version is absolutely awesome and very useful. I think Factset May be too but I have only used desktop professional paid version in my past.

[QUOTE=Clodius1;2452425]Link to DW article about permanent closures here.

[URL]https://www.dw.com/en/german-lawmakers-call-for-buying-sex-to-be-made-permanently-illegal/a-53504221?maca=en-EMail-sharing[/URL][/QUOTE]I would not say bad news yet. There are always haters who want to prevent action between two consenting adults behind closed doors.

[QUOTE=Turgid;2452454]I would not say bad news yet. There are always haters who want to prevent action between two consenting adults behind closed doors.[/QUOTE]I don't think that Germany will adopt the Nordic model and expect business to return to normal once social distancing measures end -- probably in a couple of months at most. There is just too much money pouring into Germany from the sex industry for them to do something so stupid.

If it did happen, all the girls will just move to Austria, Switzerland, Spain and Holland. Don't you think Germans know that?

Right. And how many lawmakers make up the body of the government? 16 wrote a letter. How many then did not take part in the letter?

[QUOTE=Turgid;2452454]I would not say bad news yet. There are always haters who want to prevent action between two consenting adults behind closed doors.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2452268][I]Haut les coeurs![/I] I checked the stats and yesterday the total deaths went from 28,239 to 28,022 -- a rise of only -0. 77%.

When I first read that, I was thrilled, but on second thoughts I'm not sure I like the idea of Coronavirus victims bashing their way out of coffins and shambling around Notre Dame at night, getting very bitey, etc. Believe me, sometimes death is the better option.[/QUOTE]28022 deaths on Tuesday, 28132 today, around 100 per day, in hospitals and old people residences, and you add about 7000 people, doctors preferred to let die quietly in their bed at home, with family around them, even with mask, because they were too weak and sick to be saved. 90% deaths are older than 65 yo. I keep on trusting french medical staff, because these bad figures have explanations. Nurses with low earning are to be thank, when Sanofi boss should be careful not to fall like Louis XVI, even we will check vaccine before using, not to kill too many, we don't follow crazy Trump.

[QUOTE=Sebastiane;2452460]I don't think that Germany will adopt the Nordic model and expect business to return to normal once social distancing measures end -- probably in a couple of months at most. There is just too much money pouring into Germany from the sex industry for them to do something so stupid.

If it did happen, all the girls will just move to Austria, Switzerland, Spain and Holland. Don't you think Germans know that?[/QUOTE]Do you think German politics care much about Romanians and where they go? Most of this business money go to Romania, and bit to Bulgaria, when I visit a club, I would say I give 50/60 to Germany and 200/300 to Romania. Brothels are nothing for money for powerful Germany and also nothing for tourism. Bavaria which is the most touristic, is nothing for brothels. Higher rates for girls business in Austria, Switzerland and even Spain.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2452241]Well some low educated mentioned about national debt, so I explained what is going on. Again we are the only G7 nation who can print our own money at our will owning our own central bank ourselves and our bond is solely backed by japanese yen so we decide, this is most important when it comes to country management. We wanted that after ww2 and we appeal to interest of USA and we managed to convince USA who are our best friend and ally.

As for people. This is the system and you are half true, Japanese government sees citizen as foot soldiers LOL this is reality of it if you look deep into what is going on, it is going on due to immigration though, someone mentioned about decrease in population and this is problem in all G7 nations, people are smarter so don't make kids, so most G7 nations went for immigration long ago beside Japan, but we too are opening our door, but we are learning from mistakes of EU immigration and we are trying to choose better. But people live good here, there is no poverty almost in Japan, I mean anyone who has been here know that we rarely have homeless and if there are it is by choice..[/QUOTE]Maybe I don't understand well, but when 1500 USD are close to minimum salary in France, you can't live good in France, nor in Germany nor US with only 1500 USD per month, you can't live in Paris, London, Mainhattan with so low money, maybe in Bucharest, and life is less expensive in Germany than in France and much less tax and charge. When I finished school, quite a bit ago, my first full time job which was my passion, was better paid and I could rebuild a RS500 which was crashed and alone, but I fell in love, rebuilding her and kept her for 25 years and 3 girlfriends who were jealous about her. When H3 engine was really tired, then I enjoyed so much rodeo girl, real passion, despite crashes, but rebuilt her when expert told she is dead, I give you what she worth. Yes, give me, but she is not dead because I love her too much. 1500 USD would not even be enough for credit for flat I bought, how could I have my life with such tip, fortunately I make at least 5 times and I need, and if I was still motivated for somebody, working more, but I don't need, I m sure I could make nearly 10 times, but I don't need money for when I will die. I know guys who spend this per day in FKK land and are there 6 days per week. We really don't have same standards and way and level of life. I don't care about Sanofi running for vaccine, I m only interested by level of life, and I work to live as I like, not working more because I don't need, but I worked outside under virus, to save my job.

[QUOTE=Sebastiane;2452460]I don't think that Germany will adopt the Nordic model and expect business to return to normal once social distancing measures end -- probably in a couple of months at most. There is just too much money pouring into Germany from the sex industry for them to do something so stupid.

If it did happen, all the girls will just move to Austria, Switzerland, Spain and Holland. Don't you think Germans know that?[/QUOTE]Spot on. It won't happen. German economists are too bright to allow the loss of a fairly unique position in the market.

[QUOTE=Clodius1;2452425]Link to DW article about permanent closures here.

[URL]https://www.dw.com/en/german-lawmakers-call-for-buying-sex-to-be-made-permanently-illegal/a-53504221?maca=en-EMail-sharing[/URL][/QUOTE]You always have some politicians who are like this in every nation, but it is only minority. They may regulate it further, but it won't die.

Even it does, mongers are mortal, we just migrate to next country, which are Switzerland and Austria.

In the worst case, I hear there is a promise land called Brazil on the other side, deep in amazonian jungle, there is a final promise land LOL!

Mongers are mortal being, we just migrate LOL!

[QUOTE=Sebastiane;2452460]I don't think that Germany will adopt the Nordic model and expect business to return to normal once social distancing measures end -- probably in a couple of months at most. There is just too much money pouring into Germany from the sex industry for them to do something so stupid.

If it did happen, all the girls will just move to Austria, Switzerland, Spain and Holland. Don't you think Germans know that?[/QUOTE]I hope you are right and I think you are too. I just don't know to what extent economic benefits factored into the decision to allow prostitution at scale in Germany relative to other neighboring countries. I don't know the amount of direct tax benefits and number of jobs tied to this business directly or indirectly. It probably is not insubstantial. On the other hand, other countries in the region can also open their countries to prostitution to the same extent that DE did but they haven't and that is because money is not the only factor that goes into this formula. And we simply don't know which way the political wind is blowing in DE at the moment on this issue.

[QUOTE=Turgid;2452454]I would not say bad news yet. There are always haters who want to prevent action between two consenting adults behind closed doors.[/QUOTE]I hope that you are right and that ice bears can return to DE FKK. For me, I enjoy visiting DE for many reasons. I like the people there, the excellent food, the safe streets etc. But if FKK is closed for good, I will have to chase after die madchen elsewhere, Holland, Wien, Swiss etc.

Hi guys!

Nice to meet you all, I'm new to the forum. I'd like to ask you if someone know about the situation of stripclubs in Sofia, are they open? Or will they open in the near future? Thank you!

Spot on. It won't happen. German economists are too bright to allow the loss of a fairly unique position in the market.

Need to have a look where the money in going: concerning the girls mostly outside Germany, a lot of FKK, brothels are owned by the rocker gangs, the German government is putting a lot of pressure on them in the recent years. A lot of foreign visitors are already on business trip when they go to the prostitutes, therefor no big impact on the hotel industry, for the local it is changing nothing. Not so sure things will return to normal and even if any cluster will happen in a FKK or brothel for sure they will close for long time.

[QUOTE=Faburi;2452516]Hi guys!

Nice to meet you all, I'm new to the forum. I'd like to ask you if someone know about the situation of stripclubs in Sofia, are they open? Or will they open in the near future? Thank you![/QUOTE]Sofia as in Bulgaria?

If so, check out Bulgaria threat, I am sure there is. Try hitting Europe section and scroll down to find Bulgaria, it maybe more helpful to you if you mean Sofia in Bulgaria.

If it is Sofia strip club in Germany if there is one. Nobody knows beside German government when it will be open, even though many forum posters like to share the information only German government would know and decide, but sex forum poster seems to think this is some kind of free mason level secret society called international sex forum LOL!

[QUOTE=Faburi;2452516]Hi guys!

Nice to meet you all, I'm new to the forum. I'd like to ask you if someone know about the situation of stripclubs in Sofia, are they open? Or will they open in the near future? Thank you![/QUOTE]If you are talking Bulgaria, you have missed the forum thread by a couple countries. If you do go there, I say avoid The Fetish Club. It is about paying way too much for cheap Champaign while trying to get you into a closet with a lady for even more charges. If you do go, and spend enough, they may give you a ride back to your hotel. That's what I heard from a friend.

[QUOTE=ExpatLover;2452534]Spot on. It won't happen. German economists are too bright to allow the loss of a fairly unique position in the market.

Need to have a look where the money in going: concerning the girls mostly outside Germany, a lot of FKK, brothels are owned by the rocker gangs, the German government is putting a lot of pressure on them in the recent years. A lot of foreign visitors are already on business trip when they go to the prostitutes, therefor no big impact on the hotel industry, for the local it is changing nothing. Not so sure things will return to normal and even if any cluster will happen in a FKK or brothel for sure they will close for long time.[/QUOTE]Colloseum is owned by bikers I think, or whatever that place is called now. Rest, I cannot think of any mega clubs that are owned by bikers beside they do send in some girls in, which I welcome.

[QUOTE=Faburi;2452516].... the situation of stripclubs in Sofia, are they open? Or will they open in the near future?[/QUOTE]Welcome in the section Europe / Bulgaria ..... Sofia.

[QUOTE=ExpatLover;2452534]...... a lot of foreign visitors are already on business trip ... go to the prostitutes ... no big impact on the hotel industry, for the local it is changing nothing ...[/QUOTE]That's currently a perfect fit for German politics to shut down the FKK and club area in complete. But a new greyzone will be created producing new battle fields for reallocation of assets between the participants in the background. Within the last two decades the rising-up of FKK and sauna clubs created a kind of coat lying on top for the bad sex industry as there was the idea that this should be the best way to handle with P6 in its own closed microcosm located far away from civil life as located outside a big city or even in the hinterland. This was working well until 2010 as the sexworkers in the first decade of this century also saw a chance of new independency. Matching civil life as a hairdresser or medical assistant spending the weekend or the holidays in a club to earn some more money. This was the decade women came over to make their money in Germany buying an apartment in their homecountry (Poland, CZ, Hungary).

The new mobility by members of the European Union resulted in a flooding of German clubs by Romanian women. At least three times per year that each television broadcasting channel produced a documentary on that issue in order to raise attention for criminal aspects. Romanian women meanwhile represent at least 80% of German club scene. And this exploitation has to be stopped as a political task. In addition the health care system in Germany needs new staff which can be recruited that way some may think. A pretty idea, but the ones who come over to Germany to work in the sex industry also recognize that the amount of money to make this way in few years can be much more compared to the salary to earn in a civil job.

[QUOTE=Faburi;2452516]Hi guys!

Nice to meet you all, I'm new to the forum. I'd like to ask you if someone know about the situation of stripclubs in Sofia, are they open? Or will they open in the near future? Thank you![/QUOTE]In which lander is Sofia? Bavaria close to Garmisch-Partenkirchen? But I know can find many Bulgarians with average teeth in RTC, can see cars at 10 am, working as taxi, but not written taxi on car, maybe Uber from Sofia. Long drive.

Europe should decide on mid June for free moving inside EU for Europeans. Austria may be first for business, but can t compete with Paris with street girls with no mask seen since 12 May. I can't understand how Police let these girls work, even prostitution is not illegal in France. But clients can be prosecuted. No risk when going to escorts and much better hygiene.

When Trump claims to take chloroquine for breakfast, french doctors except one decided chloroquine have no real efficiency to cure from virus but can kill many from heart attack, maybe could help US, when from ex communist Slovenia Melania Knaus seems much more clever than him, when a model can be more clever than most powerful country president. Reasons to worry about crazy. US should be far over 100 thousand deaths, even mostly Afro Americabns, before elections.

[QUOTE=Clodius1;2452515]I hope that you are right and that ice bears can return to DE FKK. For me, I enjoy visiting DE for many reasons. I like the people there, the excellent food, the safe streets etc. But if FKK is closed for good, I will have to chase after die madchen elsewhere, Holland, Wien, Swiss etc.[/QUOTE]I have pursued our hobby all over the world. Prior to 2008 Geylang in Singapore was my favorite hobbying site with its streets being a smorgasbord of hundreds nay thousands of delights from South East Asia, then there was a shut down in 2009. Buenos Aires then became my favorite with choices of the most beautiful women in the world to be had all over the city then there was a shut down around 2011/12. Then Changping in China became my favorite with thousands of Chinese beauties available for the taking in saunas and KTVs then the Chinese government shut that down in 2014. Then German FKKs, which I had been visiting since early 2000's became my favorite until my last visit in March this year. Will it continue to be my favorite? Time will tell.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2452622]When Trump claims to take chloroquine for breakfast, french doctors except one decided chloroquine have no real efficiency to cure from virus but can kill many from heart attack, maybe could help US, when from ex communist Slovenia Melania Knaus seems much more clever than him, when a model can be more clever than most powerful country president. Reasons to worry about crazy. US should be far over 100 thousand deaths, even mostly Afro Americabns, before elections.[/QUOTE]According to real qualified doctors, not crazy, Chinese killer virus seem strong around 10 Celsius degrees, less under 5 or above 25, can explain some figures and fortunately for Africa, when south America and Brazil are falling in trouble now, when Autumn for them. Brazil is competing with US now.

There always been opponents to prostitution or any kind of sex work. This is nothing new. Besides it's only 16 MPs (or claimed to be by the media) that are calling for it. Not sure if it's all 16 MPs that want to ban prostitution.

[QUOTE=Clodius1;2452515]I hope that you are right and that ice bears can return to DE FKK. For me, I enjoy visiting DE for many reasons. I like the people there, the excellent food, the safe streets etc. But if FKK is closed for good, I will have to chase after die madchen elsewhere, Holland, Wien, Swiss etc.[/QUOTE]Yes. There are Thai, Indian, Italian, and Turkish (Kurd) restaurants in Germany. I asked the owner of an Indian restaurant in Hamburg about the northern German people. He said "cool". He had been in Hamburg for 20 years and had no German friends. He did not mention crime or street traffic.

Let me name a few of, ehmm, his well advertised attributes: Tiny Hands, Egotistical, Arrogant, Deflectionist, Delusional, Issues recognizing truth from delusion, pays lots of money for prostitutes, Superiority Complex, crap writer and speaker of the English language, offensive, denies reality, thinks everyone loves him, continually insults the lady who openly criticized him. And I'm sure I've missed some. I was sure there could only be one. Then we elected Trump president.

When Trump claims to take chloroquine for breakfast, french doctors except one decided chloroquine have no real efficiency to cure from virus but can kill many from heart attack, maybe could help US, when from ex communist Slovenia Melania Knaus seems much more clever than him, when a model can be more clever than most powerful country president. Reasons to worry about crazy. US should be far over 100 thousand deaths, even mostly Afro Americabns, before elections.

Most of the travellers including me to africa are taking this medicine for decades without any side effects, all the Indian medical staff is taking it, widely used in south Korea, China and all in France, just it is a cheap medicine no interest for the health industry in collusion with some politics to push that solution.

[QUOTE=Chongmal;2452793]Then we elected Trump president.[/QUOTE]Please remove "me" from that "we". I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid! As another poster on this site noted, why doesn't he go ahead and double his dosage of the chloroquine? After all. What's he got to lose? Ha!

[QUOTE=ExpatLover;2452796]When Trump claims to take chloroquine for breakfast, french doctors except one decided chloroquine have no real efficiency to cure from virus but can kill many from heart attack, maybe could help US, when from ex communist Slovenia Melania Knaus seems much more clever than him, when a model can be more clever than most powerful country president. Reasons to worry about crazy. US should be far over 100 thousand deaths, even mostly Afro Americabns, before elections.

Most of the travellers including me to africa are taking this medicine for decades without any side effects, all the Indian medical staff is taking it, widely used in south Korea, China and all in France, just it is a cheap medicine no interest for the health industry in collusion with some politics to push that solution.[/QUOTE]OK, there is absolutely NO evidence that the use of Chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine for Covid-19 is safe and effective. This is because the presence of viruses or other infections can change the side effects of a drug. This editorial explains it very well: [URL]https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1432.long[/URL] . '. wide use of hydroxychloroquine will expose some patients to rare but potentially fatal harms, including serious cutaneous adverse reactions, fulminant hepatic failure, and ventricular arrhythmias (especially when prescribed with azithromycin) 27; overdose is hazardous and difficult to treat.'

[QUOTE=Arnold15;2451902]First, we talk about REGISTERED deaths. Sweden (and Belgium) are good on identifying the real death reason.

Different countries count Corona-deaths in different ways.
In other countries, deaths by Corona are obviously underestimated.

And here is the real reason to many deaths in Stockholm.

Second, most deaths in Stockholm are people from poor immigration ghettos, where people do not understand Swedish and have not been able to assimilate information about Corona.

On the other hand, immunity in Stockholm is now very high - well prepared for "the second wave".[/QUOTE]What do you mean by "very high"? Any studies available, or just a "guess"? In any case you need up to 70% herd immunity, I doubt you will have that.

And trying to put the high death rates in Sweden on poor immigrants would be laughable, if not very sad, when even locally produced data show that it was essentially in care homes. And elderly people left exposed to wide virus circulation.

Swedes don't ALWAYS get it right, in spite of what some of them would like to believe. They even messed up the way they manage (d) immigration, and now, compared to their neighbours, Danmark, Finland, Norway, they look terribly bad, to the point that they will be excluded form the free tracel Scandinavian bubble. So you will continue frolicking in Stockholm's parks, but won't be allowed anywhere else during the summer!

Good luck my friend!

But we have deaths, not from virus, but killed by chloroquine with heart attack. Real facts, maybe French have more fragile heart than others. I won t take with my intense sports with heart in red zone for hours, sometimes under more than 35 Celsius degrees, in Bonette, Agnel, Izoard.

A bit like Viagra, be careful when You are not doctor, some medicine can kill.

[QUOTE=Dreams;2452837]What do you mean by "very high"? Any studies available, or just a "guess"? In any case you need up to 70% herd immunity, I doubt you will have that.

And trying to put the high death rates in Sweden on poor immigrants would be laughable, if not very sad, when even locally produced data show that it was essentially in care homes. And elderly people left exposed to wide virus circulation.

Swedes don't ALWAYS get it right, in spite of what some of them would like to believe. They even messed up the way they manage (d) immigration, and now, compared to their neighbours, Danmark, Finland, Norway, they look terribly bad, to the point that they will be excluded form the free tracel Scandinavian bubble. So you will continue frolicking in Stockholm's parks, but won't be allowed anywhere else during the summer!

Good luck my friend![/QUOTE]I've noticed that you got a inferiority complex going on but excess deaths shows that countries like Spain and Italy aren't even close to report the correct number of Covid-19 related deaths. Unlike Sweden and Belgium. In country after country the immigrant communities are showing a higher degree of mortality, that's a fact. Well, the point is that Swedish economy is doing much better than our neighbors. Too many countries have butchered their economies, 40 million newly unemployed in the US and the Mediterranean countries are now back begging EU and the North for more money. They've never been able to take care of themselves, like big ass children.

Sweden got it right as usual, better economy and statistics than Spain, Italy, Belgium, France and the UK despite not having any lockdown and the fact that many of those countries are grossly underreporting the number of deaths.

Swedes could easily go to Portugal if they wanted to, you should stop hating and start reading the news.

[URL]https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/travel/articles/1284355/Portugal-holidays-2020-coronavirus-travel-advice-fco-news-latest-algarve-Azores-Madeira/amp[/URL]

[QUOTE=Dreams;2452837]What do you mean by "very high"? Any studies available, or just a "guess"? In any case you need up to 70% herd immunity, I doubt you will have that.
[/QUOTE]Salaam Dreams and Arnold. The [B]herd immunity threshold[/B] for coronavirus is generally quoted as 60%. But a recent model from Swedish and UK scientists found it could be just 43%. There's a lot of doubt. Wikipedia says 29 - 74%.

I guess in Stockholm they have 20-30% infected by now. It will be interesting to see what effect that has on the R0 number, and if Sweden will end up better than its locked-down neighbors.

[QUOTE=RockyV;2452834]OK, there is absolutely NO evidence that the use of Chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine for Covid-19 is safe and effective. This is because the presence of viruses or other infections can change the side effects of a drug. This editorial explains it very well: [URL]https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1432.long[/URL] . '. wide use of hydroxychloroquine will expose some patients to rare but potentially fatal harms, including serious cutaneous adverse reactions, fulminant hepatic failure, and ventricular arrhythmias (especially when prescribed with azithromycin) 27; overdose is hazardous and difficult to treat.'[/QUOTE]In France, chloroquine is not considered efficient versus covid, and many health accidents after taking. Quite dangerous if taken like a bonbon.

[QUOTE=Dreams;2452837]What do you mean by "very high"? Any studies available, or just a "guess"? In any case you need up to 70% herd immunity, I doubt you will have that.

And trying to put the high death rates in Sweden on poor immigrants would be laughable, if not very sad, when even locally produced data show that it was essentially in care homes. And elderly people left exposed to wide virus circulation.

Swedes don't ALWAYS get it right, in spite of what some of them would like to believe. They even messed up the way they manage (d) immigration, and now, compared to their neighbours, Danmark, Finland, Norway, they look terribly bad, to the point that they will be excluded form the free tracel Scandinavian bubble. So you will continue frolicking in Stockholm's parks, but won't be allowed anywhere else during the summer!

Good luck my friend![/QUOTE]Yes, with no confined, old people are in danger in Stockholm, with many deaths, but in France, 90% deaths are more than 65 yo. No proof, recovering give immunity, according to French doctors and very average reliability for tests because depend when you are tested about catching, if you are not infected yet.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2452932]Salaam Dreams and Arnold. The [B]herd immunity threshold[/B] for coronavirus is generally quoted as 60%. But a recent model from Swedish and UK scientists found it could be just 43%. There's a lot of doubt. Wikipedia says 29 - 74%.

I guess in Stockholm they have 20-30% infected by now. It will be interesting to see what effect that has on the R0 number, and if Sweden will end up better than its locked-down neighbors.[/QUOTE]Relation of deaths to # of inhabitants in Sweden is 3 x as high as in Germany. Trending worse.

No heard immunity around the corner there as well. Former forecasts of high percentages of infections (30%) for Stockholm have been reduced to around 7% max.

RN.

In France, chloroquine is not considered efficient versus covid, and many health accidents after taking. Quite dangerous if taken like a bonbon.

For how many years we are taking it to fight malaria, personally I took it at least 10 times, all the India medical staff are taking it, widely used in China and Korea, have a look at the notice of aspirin not sure you will ever take one.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2452932]Salaam Dreams and Arnold. The [B]herd immunity threshold[/B] for coronavirus is generally quoted as 60%. But a recent model from Swedish and UK scientists found it could be just 43%. There's a lot of doubt. Wikipedia says 29 - 74%.[/QUOTE]Since we are all speculating around here I'll throw in my guess here as well. I think herd immunity threshold depends on where you live. In a rural, more remote area, the threshold can be much lower than in a big city where you mix with hundreds different people every day (public transit, large office buildings, shopping malls, etc).

So far all studies about general population rate of infection have found that less than 10% people were infected so far, most were quoting 5-7% (Sweden, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, US, Switzerland). That includes studies done specifically in areas where there were many reported infections.

[QUOTE=RogueNation;2452944]Relation of deaths to # of inhabitants in Sweden is 3 x as high as in Germany. Trending worse.

No heard immunity around the corner there as well. Former forecasts of high percentages of infections (30%) for Stockholm have been reduced to around 7% max.

RN.[/QUOTE]Statistics on REPORTED Corona-deaths in Sweden comapring with other countries is WORTHLESS.

It simply depends on that different countries identify real reasons to deaths in different ways.
Here, Belgium and Sweden are top countries since they identify the death reason - other countries (like France) do not.

The only way to calculate Corona-death are as follows:
Number of dead in April 2020 divided by average number of dead in April 2015-19.

Then you get how many percent died more than normal.
And this figure in Sweden is not higher 2020 than 1993, when there was a severe influence.
Comapring period February - May in Sweden 2020 with 2018, then only 1700 more dead people in 2020!
Almost all of them multi-dicesease and average age of 81!


Immunity is much higher than 7 % in Sweden and Stockholm. The Swedish Government has simply only poor test kit to identify antibodies.
At least 50 percent at my work place have had Corona - and it was like a cold for most of them.

Average age of "corona-identified" deaths is 81 years in Sweden.
Corona is only dangerous for ol people with underlying diseases.

Report from Stockholm.
And there is a real free life here.

And people do not die in the streets as some people at this forum seem to believe.


And only wait for the second wave. TSUNAMI in France and BREAZE in Sweden

[QUOTE=Arnold15;2453046]And people do not die in the streets as some poeple from France at this forum seem to believe.[/QUOTE]Only one please, most people in France don't live in their own reality.

I am not going to respond to anyone directly here and not aim any of the following assertions at anyone, it is just an illustration of some collected analysis from sources and not mere hearsay or anecdotal evidence.

This is a global forum where a lot of people are accustomed to travel and although not everyone here might have an elite education or be very articulate I am surprised at the nationalist chest thumping and to say it kindly the lack of a broad perspective when it comes to discussing the Covid19 pandemic. I was of two minds writing this, some of the responses I have read lack any intellectual rigor whatsoever and can not be construed of as rational arguments, but I have decided to respond nevertheless.

So why has Sweden become an issue of debate here, because it is the sole country in Europe that has advocated against an enforced lock down. So either Sweden knows something every other country in the Europe and wider world, with the exception of wonderfully rational politicians like Bolsanaro, does not know. Or it has chosen a questionable path that even its Nordic neighbors have rejected. The simple assertion that Sweden is right and everyone else is wrong is highly dubious, we will know at the very end of this but the evidence to date is not compelling.

- Arguments to dispute the assertions I have read on this forum.

1. We are not sacrificing our economy that also entails a cost, yes it does, but many countries have chosen this cost and not lightly, this represents a weak argument since in Sweden the economic cost of this pandemic is high anyhow, in fact it is in line with the contraction of the Eurozone and its Nordic neighbors, so if anyone was avoiding a lock down to defray the economic costs, this has not worked.

[URL]https://www.politico.eu/article/swedens-cant-escape-economic-hit-with-covid-19-light-touch/[/URL]

2. We are going to reach herd immunity faster and avoid a second wave, this is in fact possible, but to date there is no evidence for this. Arguments like half the people have had it and we can't measure it are not serious assertions to base policies on, I at one point thought I had had it in March, however you can not be sure and I won't take the risk to get it.

The study in Sweden we have says that Stockholm is far from herd immunity.

[URL]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/21/just-7-per-cent-of-stockholm-had-covid-19-antibodies-by-end-of-april-study-sweden-coronavirus[/URL]

In fact the scientists that had predicted higher levels of herd immunity are surprised and said that their model has some seriously false assumptions behind it. Saying you know this is wrong isn't an argument to base serious policy on, it could be wrong and you could also win the lottery tomorrow.

3. The mortality rate is lower than other countries with a lock down. This is increasingly wrong with time.

I had said earlier that certain countries are in different phases of the pandemic, obviously Italy being ahead of the game, and without a lockdown the numbers would increase in Sweden. The fairest comparison would be with countries with similar population densities and climates, ie its Nordic neighbors, I don't think I have to quote any statistics here, they are all too obvious, but the mortality rate and rate of increasing cases in Sweden is many times higher than those countries, there is no doubt about it.

There are many factors as to why a country would have a higher Covid 19 mortality rate, higher population densities and high levels of vitamin D deficiency tend to be a factor. About the vitamin D deficiency, the Nordic countries do not have it but the Mediterranean countries, ie Spain and Italy do, this explains quite a bit.

First the argument was that Sweden had a lower mortality rate than many countries, ie the Netherlands (the most densely populated country in Europe), but now it has supassed the Netherlands and many other countries. The latest argument is that only 5 countries now surpass it. Yes some countries have down worse with a belated or late lock down.

Let us take the UK, this country has had an enormously disastrous and inefficient response to the pandemic, it a long with other countries, was late to respond, so nothing to be proud of here and furthermore England, just England, is even more densely populated than the Netherlands. Italy was first on the scene in Europe and represents a special case. Having a mortality rate lower than these examples is not a compelling argument to say that the national strategy in Sweden was correct. The best contrast would be with similar countries.

4. Only Sweden and Belgium count deaths accurately and in fact the mortality rate is lower than other countries that under count. I have read no evidence of the methodology in Sweden to support this, every country is under counting its deaths with the possible exception of Belgium. The reason is simple, Belgium attributes all non verified causes of death to Covid 19, so it is probably the only country that is over counting, as far as I know Sweden does not do this, does anyone have a credible source to counter this?

I am in fact disappointed that higher levels of immunity are not present and it would have been better for all of us in fact if this strategy was working, but there is not enough, or any, convincing statistical evidence to back this up yet. Therefore this blind sighted confidence in this unique policy is misplaced at present.

The only remaining argument I have heard is that the second wave will be far milder than other countries, that we will have to wait and see, however if it is not, than many people have died in vain. By the way, Herd Immunity was a strategy considered by quite a few European countries, notably the UK, and rejected due to the projected death toll.

[QUOTE=Arnold15;2453046]Statistics on REPORTED Corona-deaths in Sweden comapring with other countries is WORTHLESS.

It simply depends on that different countries identify real reasons to deaths in different ways.
Here, Belgium and Sweden are top countries since they identify the death reason - other countries (like France) do not.

The only way to calculate Corona-death are as follows:
Number of dead in April 2020 divided by average number of dead in April 2015-19.

Then you get how many percent died more than normal.[/QUOTE]In France, 90% deaths are older than 65 yo and 80% older than 75 yo, so a healthy, fit French under 60 yo, even better if a woman and smoker don t have much risk of big problem about virus, but can give big problem to beloved relatives. Since 11 May, our R0 didn't explode, I think we can judge at the end of the month after more than 15 days and even better on mid June after 30 days, to decide to open borders, but killer virus may not be so strong now when 30 Celsius degrees in Paris, many French want to feel sun on them, to go to swim in sea, to get better mood, to feel free. I would like to go to free ride to feel to fly like a free bird. But FKK land is a real playfield to spread with many old and fat, and when see what happen in South America entering in Winter with lower temperatures, let s wait for next November. Highest deaths rate in Stockholm than in Paris, but on NYC level, when Stockholm don t have same density for people than Paris nor NYC, Swedish made their choice, like NL, I would have made the same, even confined saved more than 60000 life, double than deaths in France, so on this confined point, our politics were right, but not about economic crisis with many unemployment.

Unfortunately, knowledge about statistcs in this forum is zero.
Continuing comparing apples with pies.
People refer to investigations about antibodies and Corona-deaths with no value at all.

Only statistics on "excess deaths" are valid. And the real conclusion will be known after the second wave.

If anyone really thinks that one can not become immune after Covid-19, then there will neither be any vaccine that works.

Comparing death rates in Sweden with neighboring countries at this moment is nonsense, since Sweden must have XX times more infected (and immune) than Norway, Denmark and Finland that have applied a total premature lock-down strategy.

People claim that "the Swedish strategy is dubious " and "Sweden makes an experiment by NOT locking down". (Sweden is not the only country, also Belarus).
But in reality, it is the opposite.
European countries that lock-down their economies undertake the biggest experiment in modern history.

Amazing that people don't know how similar pandemies have been handled in the past.
During the Asian and HongKong-influences in the 1950's and 1960's there was no lock down whatsoever.
And the economies recovered very fast after the pandemies.

This lock-down is something completely NEW and a real EXPERIMENT.
This time, it will take very long time for economies to recover, due to the stupid lock-down strategy.

No, Sweden does not know anything that other countries do not know. We simply do what is normal in such a situation.

Other European countries have swallowed the "fake news" from China that the whole population must be isolated to handle the pandemic.
Bull-shit.
When most Euroopean countries locked down their economies, the risk groups of Covid-19 were already identified and known world-wide: Old people with underlying diseases.
Most countries decided to isolate their young populations anyway! Not a very clever strategy.

Yes, Sweden did two BIG MISTAKES:
1. Older people in retirement homes were NOT isolated (Instead secondary schools and universities were closed!) Elderly people at these homes continued to meet 10-20 different assistants per week. This is death group No. 1 in Sweden.
2. Older people in immigrant areas were not informed about Covid-19, because they do not understand Swedish. (Reflecting the disastrous Swedish immigration and integration policies). This is death group No. 2 in Sweden.

[QUOTE=TheCane;2452823]Please remove "me" from that "we". I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid! As another poster on this site noted, why doesn't he go ahead and double his dosage of the chloroquine? After all. What's he got to lose? Ha![/QUOTE]I'm not American and unfortunately in France we don't have often a president who learned arithmetic for economy at school, but Trump and Bolzonaro are same crazy with same results. I may not be clever enough or maybe my social side, but compare to Obama, just Niagara falls, from my point of view, when Trump is same ready for anything than WGs. Maybe more dangerous than Putin. Can t understand telling about pride when just behaving ridiculous. For sure, not a good image for US in Western Europe, maybe for Japan about China. I also don't understand about still free weapons when no more Navajos with arrows, and crazy shooting every day people, most often Black, like Brunswick Georgia. When no more far west.

What works for Sweden would not necessarily work for other countries. One, Sweden only has three cities with a population of over 300 K. Two, Sweden is a rich country and with low levels of inequality, in terms of money and access to medical care. This does not hold true for countries like Brazil. The population of Sao Paulo (12 million urban, 21 million metro) is larger than the entire country of Sweden (10 million). Poor people in Brazil do not have the option to social distance nor do they have the savings to sit at and home and reduce their exposure. In earlier forecasts, the Swedish authorities predicted 33 percent immunity by early May, but that figure currently sits at 7 percent in Stockholm. This suggests that Swedish have been fairly good at practicing social distancing, despite there being no "official lockdown".

[QUOTE]Sweden's approach has been unique in that most people exhibit a sense of trust and duty toward their fellow gym-goers. He said that Sweden has a culture of being more conscientious about following the rules, a phenomenon Business Insider previously reported on.

"I don't think that Swedish gyms have had a radical approach to this situation, it's just that people are a bit more mindful and careful," he said. "It mostly comes down to gym-goers feeling that sense of social responsibility."

https://www.insider.com/what-its-like-gyms-in-sweden-where-lockdowns-never-happened-2020-5
[/QUOTE][QUOTE]Brazil's death toll meanwhile surged past 20,000 Thursday.

A closer look at the data raises questions about the widely held idea that COVID-19 is mainly dangerous for the elderly.

Of Brazil's victims, 69 percent were aged 60 or older, compared with 95 percent in Spain and Italy, according to official statistics.

The disparity is partly driven by the age of the overall populace: Just 13.6 percent of Brazil's population is 60 or older, compared to 25 percent in Spain and 28 percent in Italy.

https://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2020/05/22/in-brazil-covid-19-hitting-young-people-harder.html
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Arnold15;2453070]Unfortunately, knowledge about statistcs in this forum is zero.
Continuing comparing apples with pies.
People refer to investigations about antibodies and Corona-deaths with no value at all.

Only statistics on "excess deaths" are valid. And the real conclusion will be known after the second wave.[/QUOTE]Excess deaths can only be observed after the virus has disappeared, not after a 'second wave, which nobody wants to happen. It is still relevant to compare deaths with covid-infected patients under an epidemiological and medical point of view.

[QUOTE=Arnold15;2453070]If anyone really thinks that one can not become immune after Covid-19, then there will neither be any vaccine that works.[/QUOTE]Virus may become attenuated (I. E. Weaker) like Spanish flu and remain in the population without the need of a vaccine. It may also disappear like with Sars. There are many ways in which a pandemic can end, not only through a vaccine, which remains the best and quickest way though!

[QUOTE=Arnold15;2453070]People claim that "the Swedish strategy is dubious " and "Sweden makes an experiment by NOT locking down". (Sweden is not the only country, also Belarus)[/QUOTE]Let me understand here, you want to take Belarus as a credible example in support of the Swedish approach to the pandemic. Belarus? A country, whose president said he doesn't believe in the pandemic because, and I quote, 'he does not see Covid fly in the air'? Really Arnold?

In addition, the vulnerable groups are NOT only elderly people with underlying conditions, but also all other people with respiratory diseases (including Asthma, COPD, CF etc.) all those recovering from cancer treatment, people of all ages with cardiovascular and kidney conditions and I stopped here because the list would be too long. There was absolutely no way of knowing the most vulnerable groups at the beginning of the pandemic because it was a brand new virus and, even now, we still do not fully understand how it works. DO NOT SPREAD FAKE NEWS and listen to the experts.

Sweden have chosen to avoid the lockdown and they now have almost 4000 deaths (or 389 every 1 M people) after having done 20,000 tests every 1 M people. Other countries with similar population size like Czechia, which closed down very early in the epidemic, they have 29 deaths every 1 M people) after having done 36,000 tests every 1 M people.

Sweden has taken a gamble and now they are counting corpses.

I'm amazed that people can write about strategies against the Coronavirus without even mentioning the economy!

If the only single goal was to lower the number of deaths caused by see-19 all countries would still be in quarantine!

What Bolsonaro understands is that a lockdown would completely butcher the Brazilian economy! He's afraid of the consequences of a lockdown! He is looking one step further, being smarter, than people screaming in fear because of a virus. I'm extremely disappointed by the other political leaders. It will be rough for us in Nothern Europe, rougher for those in the South and a catastrophe for Brazil. 40 million unemployed in the US, but let's act as if there will be no consequences.

I've been reading comments that without a lockdown everyone will die or half of all people will die. Today we can easily dismiss those claims as scaremongering.

So how many would die? I don't know. No one knows. In Sweden we have 59 deaths among people under 50 years, is that much? I don't think so considering the consequences of a lockdown. This virus is killing the people that pretty much could die from anything.

I would love to blast our government for their incompetence, because they truly are incompetent, but no lockdown was a great and courageous decision to take. It's got nothing to do with nationalism, it was simply the right thing to do in my opinion.

In other countries people have too much of a sunk cost to admit or even entertain the thought that they might have been better off without a lockdown. That in combination with populistic politicians, the media and scared / dumb people lead to the acceptance of a lockdown.

As said, it's not about nationalism.

[QUOTE=Arnold15;2453070]Unfortunately, knowledge about statistcs in this forum is zero.
.[/QUOTE]With that post and all the wrongs in it you include yourself in your own statement.

[QUOTE=McGrath;2453093]With that post and all the wrongs in it you include yourself in your own statement.[/QUOTE]Exactly what I was thinking and more, including a lack of knowledge regarding both medical science and history. But, enough said already.

[QUOTE=McGrath;2453093]With that post and all the wrongs in it you include yourself in your own statement.[/QUOTE]
It is nothing wrong in that post.
I live in Stockholm and follow what happens here every day.

But people in this forum who DO NOT LIVE in Stockholm and who do not know what is going on here, seem to know more about Sweden than Swedish inhabitants.
Systematically referring to super-biased statistics.

And they do not know how to calculate "excess deaths".
And definitely do not understand what "the second wave" means.

Especially, they do not know what kind of mistakes the Swedish government did.
1. Not isolating people at retirement homes and 2. Not informing immigrant groups.

[QUOTE=Arnold15;2453099]It is nothing wrong in that post.
I live in Stockholm and follow what happens here every day.

But people in this forum who DO NOT LIVE in Stockholm and who do not know what is going on here, seem to know more about Sweden than Swedish inhabitants.
Systematically referring to super-biased statistics.

And they do not know how to calculate "excess deaths".
And definitely do not understand what "the second wave" means.

Especially, they do not know what kind of mistakes the Swedish government did.
1. Not isolating people at retirement homes and 2. Not informing immigrant groups.[/QUOTE]About one point, I would differ, I do know a lot about Stockholm, since I had lived there for over 3 years, but this was a long time ago. Your response is quite measured and temperate, however the arguments I have heard from others are really not rationale and are based upon certain tenets of faith. Well I am familiar with this blind faith and confidence which is inspired by nationalist feelings.

I would just gently say this, about comparing to neighboring countries with similar climates and population densities (Denmark's is a lot higher though) you can see what the differing mortality rates from a severe vs a very relaxed lock down could be, really the fairest test would be the exact same environment, but this is obviously not possible.

The level of immunity should be higher in societies which have a more relaxed or no lock down, however it seems that in every systematic test in every place these numbers are far lower than the proponents of herd immunity have advocated. Some studies say it is up to 20% in New York, that could only be the case given its very high urban density, it would be far lower in LOS Angeles (I know both cities quite well) given the lock down in both places, I these the North American lock downs are far less strict than the European ones.

I would expect Sweden to have more people who are immune, but thus far these numbers as verified by studies are still far too low and the prediction of herd immunity by June or August is premature.

The assertion that these tests are flawed and many more people are surely immune is unfortunately just a matter of faith in the absence of hard evidence.

[QUOTE=DeltaIndigo;2453106] the North American lock downs are far less strict than the European ones.

I would expect Sweden to have more people who are immune, but thus far these numbers as verified by studies are still far too low and the prediction of herd immunity by June or August is premature..[/QUOTE]History will tell as it always does, and the winners usually get to write the story. Lockdown or no lockdown is the question and the answer is simple. The lockdown slowed the virus spread, allowing governments, hospitals and medical providers to become more prepared. This came at great expense and is delaying the spread of the virus. Not locking down let's the virus spread and in vulnerable sections of society the cost of life is higher. The reall story will arrive if / when a safe vaccination is available. If this happens this summer, then lockdown proponents will celebrate their success in saving millions of lives. If the cavaccine doesn't arrive for another 10 years the chapter will already have been written and many countries around the world will have suffered great economic loss. Of course, the antivacs groups will stand in protest, saying the government is poisoning their children.

First of all, everything about economics is wrong in that post. Sweden doesn't gain any GDP towards other countries because they are a little more open for a few months. I first came to Frankfurt because of the banks were there so I know some things about this.

Sweden is a small open economy with a floating currency, in the long view, how the rest of the world goes Sweden will go.

And the notion that Sweden is the only country that can count dead people the right way is ridicoulus.

Not nationalistic.

It is about economic rationality.

It was early well known which people were in the risk group of Covid-19: old people with underlying diseases like hypertension, diabetes, heart- and lung-problems.

A clever strategy would be to keep society open and focus on protection of the risk groups.

Anyway, politicians like Macron chose to isolate young and healthy people and slaughter the whole society, because "other countries did the same" or "China told us to lock-down".
"If all others do the same, then this strategy must be the correct one".
But here, China has a Hidden Agenda. China wants US and Europe to lock down, in order to get an economic lead.

Many European and US firms - as in the automobile sector - will soon wake up and find themselves in a real bad position.

There is absolutely no previous experience of total lock-down and the consequences of such a non-clever strategy.
Anyway, this extremely risky strategy has been applied.
It is not possible to pause the whole economy like an X-Box game, and then believe that everything will work as usual.
Important. Unemployment will cause deaths too, in the form of suicides, mental health and alcoholism. Often people with many remaining years to live will die. But these deaths are more abstract.

As I have written, Swedish Government made severe mistakes by not isolating risk groups at retirement homes.
Visits to elderly people at retirement homes were forbidden on April 1.
Secondary schools and universities - with no risk groups - were closed on March 17 ! Compare!
Sports arenas were closed even earlier.

When Swedish people returned from Austria and Italy in February, those working in Government administration (e.g. Departments, Central bank and different authorites) were sent home.
But returning people who worked at hospitals or retirement homes were not sent home! Not very clever.

I do not have any faith whatsoever for these immunity-tests performed in Sweden.
Huge numbers have been sick with Corona-symptoms in the period February-May in Sweden.
I also know people that have tested positive for immunity. But only those who were sick the last weeks. Not those that were sick in February and March.
We do not know which level of antibodies a person must possess to get a positive test result. Several tests have circulated in Sweden the last months.

[QUOTE=DeltaIndigo;2453106]About one point, I would differ, I do know a lot about Stockholm, since I had lived there for over 3 years, but this was a long time ago. Your response is quite measured and temperate, however the arguments I have heard from others are really not rationale and are based upon certain tenets of faith. Well I am familiar with this blind faith and confidence which is inspired by nationalist feelings.

I would just gently say this, about comparing to neighboring countries with similar climates and population densities (Denmark's is a lot higher though) you can see what the differing mortality rates from a severe vs a very relaxed lock down could be, really the fairest test would be the exact same environment, but this is obviously not possible.

The level of immunity should be higher in societies which have a more relaxed or no lock down, however it seems that in every systematic test in every place these numbers are far lower than the proponents of herd immunity have advocated. Some studies say it is up to 20% in New York, that could only be the case given its very high urban density, it would be far lower in LOS Angeles (I know both cities quite well) given the lock down in both places, I these the North American lock downs are far less strict than the European ones.

I would expect Sweden to have more people who are immune, but thus far these numbers as verified by studies are still far too low and the prediction of herd immunity by June or August is premature.

The assertion that these tests are flawed and many more people are surely immune is unfortunately just a matter of faith in the absence of hard evidence.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=McGrath;2453130]First of all, everything about economics is wrong in that post. Sweden doesn't gain any GDP towards other countries because they are a little more open for a few months. I first came to Frankfurt because of the banks were there so I know some things about this.

Sweden is a small open economy with a floating currency, in the long view, how the rest of the world goes Sweden will go.

And the notion that Sweden is the only country that can count dead people the right way is ridicoulus.[/QUOTE]I have never written that Sweden gain any GDP towards other countries because they are a little more open for a few months.
Did you mix the posts?

If lock-down is a clever strategy that do not harm the economy.
Why not locking down the economy for 2-3 years?
Future will show if Sweden or Spain / Italy / France will beg for money and loans from EU / ECB.

I never said that only Sweden counts Corona-dead people the right way.
I said that countries count in different ways.
In such case, comparing statistics with reported Corona-deaths between countries is worthless.

The only accurate way to compare countries is to count "excess deaths".
How many died this year compared to previous years.

[QUOTE=RockyV;2453084]Excess deaths can only be observed after the virus has disappeared, not after a 'second wave, which nobody wants to happen. It is still relevant to compare deaths with covid-infected patients under an epidemiological and medical point of view.

Virus may become attenuated (I. E. Weaker) like Spanish flu and remain in the population without the need of a vaccine. It may also disappear like with Sars. There are many ways in which a pandemic can end, not only through a vaccine, which remains the best and quickest way though!

Let me understand here, you want to take Belarus as a credible example in support of the Swedish approach to the pandemic. Belarus? A country, whose president said he doesn't believe in the pandemic because, and I quote, 'he does not see Covid fly in the air'? Really Arnold?

In addition, the vulnerable groups are NOT only elderly people with underlying conditions, but also all other people with respiratory diseases (including Asthma, COPD, CF etc.) all those recovering from cancer treatment, people of all ages with cardiovascular and kidney conditions and I stopped here because the list would be too long. There was absolutely no way of knowing the most vulnerable groups at the beginning of the pandemic because it was a brand new virus and, even now, we still do not fully understand how it works. DO NOT SPREAD FAKE NEWS and listen to the experts.

Sweden have chosen to avoid the lockdown and they now have almost 4000 deaths (or 389 every 1 M people) after having done 20,000 tests every 1 M people. Other countries with similar population size like Czechia, which closed down very early in the epidemic, they have 29 deaths every 1 M people) after having done 36,000 tests every 1 M people.

Sweden has taken a gamble and now they are counting corpses.[/QUOTE]

Statistics on reported Corona-death are not comparable between countries. Countries count deaths in different ways.
Also take account of number of infected. And wait for the second wave. It will happen. You apparantly did not take account of that in your biased statistics.

More than 93 % of dead people in Sweden are older than 70 years. Average age of Corona-deaths: 81 years.
Almost all have at least one underlying disease.

Why then isolating young and healthy people and killing healthy firms?

More clever to let society be open and protect risk groups.

NO.
The Big Gamble is to lock down the whole economy.
Nobody (neither you) knows the consequences of this, since it has never been applied before during any pandemic.
Your main argument is "Everybody else locked down, so it must be the correct strategy".

Did you take account of the health consequences of mass-unemployment?

Please, stop spreading Fake News.
China does this every day to get economic advantages.

[QUOTE=ShooBree;2453092]I'm amazed that people can write about strategies against the Coronavirus without even mentioning the economy!

If the only single goal was to lower the number of deaths caused by see-19 all countries would still be in quarantine!

What Bolsonaro understands is that a lockdown would completely butcher the Brazilian economy! He's afraid of the consequences of a lockdown! He is looking one step further, being smarter, than people screaming in fear because of a virus. I'm extremely disappointed by the other political leaders. It will be rough for us in Nothern Europe, rougher for those in the South and a catastrophe for Brazil. 40 million unemployed in the US, but let's act as if there will be no consequences.

I've been reading comments that without a lockdown everyone will die or half of all people will die. Today we can easily dismiss those claims as scaremongering.

So how many would die? I don't know. No one knows. In Sweden we have 59 deaths among people under 50 years, is that much? I don't think so considering the consequences of a lockdown. This virus is killing the people that pretty much could die from anything.

I would love to blast our government for their incompetence, because they truly are incompetent, but no lockdown was a great and courageous decision to take. It's got nothing to do with nationalism, it was simply the right thing to do in my opinion.

In other countries people have too much of a sunk cost to admit or even entertain the thought that they might have been better off without a lockdown. That in combination with populistic politicians, the media and scared / dumb people lead to the acceptance of a lockdown.

As said, it's not about nationalism.[/QUOTE]Very well written.

I fully agree with you.

The health and economic consequences of mass unemployment due to lock-down will become several times larger than the health consequences of the Covid19-virus.

[QUOTE=Arnold15;2453141]Statistics on reported Corona-death are not comparable between countries. Countries count deaths in different ways.
Also take account of number of infected. And wait for the second wave. It will happen. You apparantly did not take account of that in your biased statistics.

More than 93 % of dead people in Sweden are older than 70 years. Average age of Corona-deaths: 81 years.
Almost all have at least one underlying disease.

Why then isolating young and healthy people and killing healthy firms?

More clever to let society be open and protect risk groups.

NO.
The Big Gamble is to lock down the whole economy.
Nobody (neither you) knows the consequences of this, since it has never been applied before during any pandemic.
Your main argument is "Everybody else locked down, so it must be the correct strategy".

Did you take account of the health consequences of mass-unemployment?

Please, stop spreading Fake News.
China does this every day to get economic advantages.[/QUOTE]The methodology and accuracy of the count is not exactly the same between any two different countries, however similar countries should be broadly in line. In this case however, Sweden and Czechia, the discrepancy is so damn huge, that it would be all but impossible for Czechia to not have a dramatically lower death toll at current (I am not speaking about herd immunity or the hypothetical second wave).

When the figures are this far apart and the fact that figures from Czechia have far more integrity than Belarus, China or Russia, their death toll and infection rate has been undoubtedly lower. Yes, no 2 countries use the exact same methodology and capture data the same way, however when the discrepancy is so incredibly large the conclusion is beyond dispute.

Let the asympomatic roam free and live off their recent ancestors nest egg. Since they have an insufficient education in most countries it's only a matter of time before they exhaust their funds at the discos and realize it's time to hunt down the rich. One person in South Korea was traced back from 215 infections spread over 5 bars. The crumbs led back to Grandma's house where the big bad Wolf 🐺 devoured her. Betsy Devos will make sure the for profit colleges get their dough for the insufficient education provided to Hansel and Gretel. It was a gruesome story when written and later sanitized to mask the ugly truth. Thank Steven Munchkin and Kamala Harris for all those home foreclosures in California, suckers. Just call me argumentative.

[QUOTE=Beijing4987;2453148]Thank Steven Munchkin and Kamala Harris for all those home foreclosures in California, suckers.[/QUOTE]Yes, let us blame Steve Munchkin! There the little culprit is in the middle with a couple of his cronies!

[QUOTE=Arnold15;2453141]Statistics on reported Corona-death are not comparable between countries. Countries count deaths in different ways.
Also take account of number of infected. And wait for the second wave. It will happen. You apparantly did not take account of that in your biased statistics.

More than 93 % of dead people in Sweden are older than 70 years. Average age of Corona-deaths: 81 years.
Almost all have at least one underlying disease.

Why then isolating young and healthy people and killing healthy firms?

More clever to let society be open and protect risk groups.

NO..[/QUOTE]I have never said to isolate the young and healthy, but I was correcting you in just having the elderly with underlying conditions as the vulnerable group.

Cases in Sweden are likely underestimated as their test rates are still very low.

Sweden economy will suffer as much as the rest of Europe, according to some analysts in FT: [URL]https://www.ft.com/content/93105160-dcb4-4721-9e58-a7b262cd4b6e[/URL] and this makes me wonder, why pay a high death toll then.

Finally, I want to make one thing very clear here as I may have come across a bit harsh earlier: I absolutely love Sweden, the Swedish people and food but I think they could have done more in this case to save lives. That's all.

Rock.

[QUOTE=Arnold15;2453046]Statistics on REPORTED Corona-deaths in Sweden comapring with other countries is WORTHLESS.

It simply depends on that different countries identify real reasons to deaths in different ways.
Here, Belgium and Sweden are top countries since they identify the death reason - other countries (like France) do not.

The only way to calculate Corona-death are as follows:
Number of dead in April 2020 divided by average number of dead in April 2015-19.

Then you get how many percent died more than normal.
And this figure in Sweden is not higher 2020 than 1993, when there was a severe influence.
Comapring period February - May in Sweden 2020 with 2018, then only 1700 more dead people in 2020!
Almost all of them multi-dicesease and average age of 81!.[/QUOTE]I didn't read here people die in Stockholm streets, but I wrote Stockholm is worst deaths rate with more than 1000 deaths, competing with NYC where we could see fridge trucks in streets, full of dead, and also Hart island. We will see for second wave, if it happens, let's try just to be able to control first one.

[QUOTE=Arnold15;2453135]Anyway, politicians like Macron chose to isolate young and healthy people and slaughter the whole society, because "other countries did the same" or "China told us to lock-down".
"If all others do the same, then this strategy must be the correct one".
But here, China has a Hidden Agenda. China wants US and Europe to lock down, in order to get an economic lead.

Many European and US firms - as in the automobile sector - will soon wake up and find themselves in a real bad position.[/QUOTE]China was the first to sacrifice their economy by implementing national lockdown. They had no way of predicting with 100 percent certainty if any other country would follow suit. The only thing that they could have maybe predicted was that countries with a one-party-system would be more efficient at containing the crisis and getting compliance from the populace.

The fundamental problem is almost every country underestimated the threat. Vietnam is the notable exception. I believe their national lockdown only lasted between two and three weeks. On paper, Vietnam should have been one of the worse-hit battlefields for the war against the coronavirus. Brazil, USA, Europe, and Russia all have significantly more financial resources. And being farther from the Wuhan epicenter, all these countries had significantly more time to prepare for the virus. With the exception of masks and the strict controls of the borders, daily life in Vietnam is already back to normal, even in Saigon which has two of the most population dense districts in the world.

So here is the sad lesson: if all of the Western countries had (1) taken action early, and (2) implemented a super-strict lockdown where 97 percent of population did not leave the house, not only would fewer lives have been lost but the economy would have only needed to be closed for 2-3 weeks. As I mentioned before, many Western European countries practically close their economy the entire month of August as is. And countries like France, with the amount of protesting they do, even more.

[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_city_districts_by_population_density[/URL]

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2453375]China was the first to sacrifice their economy by implementing national lockdown. They had no way of predicting with 100 percent certainty if any other country would follow suit. The only thing that they could have maybe predicted was that countries with a one-party-system would be more efficient at containing the crisis and getting compliance from the populace.

The fundamental problem is almost every country underestimated the threat. Vietnam is the notable exception. I believe their national lockdown only lasted between two and three weeks. On paper, Vietnam should have been one of the worse-hit battlefields for the war against the coronavirus. Brazil, USA, Europe, and Russia all have significantly more financial resources. And being farther from the Wuhan epicenter, all these countries had significantly more time to prepare for the virus. With the exception of masks and the strict controls of the borders, daily life in Vietnam is already back to normal, even in Saigon which has two of the most population dense districts in the world.

So here is the sad lesson: if all of the Western countries had (1) taken action early, and (2) implemented a super-strict lockdown where 97 percent of population did not leave the house, not only would fewer lives have been lost but the economy would have only needed to be closed for 2-3 weeks. As I mentioned before, many Western European countries practically close their economy the entire month of August as is. And countries like France, with the amount of protesting they do, even more.

[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_city_districts_by_population_density[/URL][/QUOTE]France don't stop economy on August, just slowlier, because sun and 3 beautiful seas in France, making most visited country and Paris for most visited city even no sea. I won't say Macron is a good president because he is not good enough for arithmetic, but he is not crazy like Trump and tried at least to save life without eating chloroquine bonbons, confined saved more than 60 000 life, double than our deaths. Multi cultural with different religions French are very different from Germany or Sweden, but except in some difficult places, French respected quite well confined, even they thought about holidays at the beginning. If we understand we need to protect our health and safety, we have level of quality in France to go on, even I don't think putting more tax on rich will help economy to restart.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2453375]China was the first to sacrifice their economy by implementing national lockdown. They had no way of predicting with 100 percent certainty if any other country would follow suit. The only thing that they could have maybe predicted was that countries with a one-party-system would be more efficient at containing the crisis and getting compliance from the populace.

The fundamental problem is almost every country underestimated the threat. Vietnam is the notable exception. I believe their national lockdown only lasted between two and three weeks. On paper, Vietnam should have been one of the worse-hit battlefields for the war against the coronavirus. Brazil, USA, Europe, and Russia all have significantly more financial resources. And being farther from the Wuhan epicenter, all these countries had significantly more time to prepare for the virus. With the exception of masks and the strict controls of the borders, daily life in Vietnam is already back to normal, even in Saigon which has two of the most population dense districts in the world.

So here is the sad lesson: if all of the Western countries had (1) taken action early, and (2) implemented a super-strict lockdown where 97 percent of population did not leave the house, not only would fewer lives have been lost but the economy would have only needed to be closed for 2-3 weeks. As I mentioned before, many Western European countries practically close their economy the entire month of August as is. And countries like France, with the amount of protesting they do, even more.

[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_city_districts_by_population_density[/URL][/QUOTE]You suggest that all countries should lock-down the whole economy 2-3 weeks. And then everything is OK. Virus is eliminated in the whole world.

No. It would not work.
It is a new virus and there is no vaccine.

Covid-19 would come in wave after wave (compare with Spanish disease, HongKong and Asian influence).
And then all countries need to lock-down 2-3 weeks every time. Maybe every 4th or 6th month?

Countries overestimated the danger of the virus.
Most people who have died by Covid-19 would die anyway within 1-2 years.
(compare: 200 000 - 1 000 000 people die every year by the annual influence)
Of course, there are exceptions, where also young people have died by covid-19, but they are in a clear minority.

The fundamental problem is that almost all countries have underestimated the economic damages AND long-term health damages of total lock-down.
Such total lock-downs have never been practised before.

Mass-unemployment and mass-bankrupsies will also kill people. Many small-firm owners will be ruined.
Huge increases in suicides, alcoholists, drug addicts.
Worse mental and physical health causing other diseases.
And above all, increased criminality (as a result of mass-unemployment) will be the consequences of these lock-downs.
And now we are talking of young people who are affected.

So the lesson to learn is as follows:
1) Let 90 % of the society work as usual.
2) Put all resources on protecting the risk groups. (Not in the Swedish incompetent way!)

As they say never waste a crisis.

Some Prominent German Politicians are using the current Covid 19 disaster to contact federal state leaders to bring in the Nordick Model!

Quelle Surprise!

[URL]https://www.dw.com/en/german-lawmakers-call-for-buying-sex-to-be-made-permanently-illegal/a-53504221[/URL]

This is particularly disgusting given that this disease has already horribly impacted on sex workers!

[QUOTE=Arnold15;2453555]The fundamental problem is that almost all countries have underestimated the economic damages AND long-term health damages of total lock-down.

Mass-unemployment and mass-bankrupsies will also kill people. Many small-firm owners will be ruined.
Huge increases in suicides, alcoholists, drug addicts.
Worse mental and physical health causing other diseases.
And above all, increased criminality (as a result of mass-unemployment) will be the consequences of these lock-downs.
And now we are talking of young people who are affected.[/QUOTE]Global lockdown, especially if it were to last longer than six months, results in significant economic damages. One does not need a degree in economics to understand this. The world has seen world wars that more or less approximate a global economic lockdown. What the world has never seen is a virus that doubles infection rates every three days, at least not since global air travel became so accessible and cheap.

I believe the damages you listed above are unavoidable, even if the lockdowns had not occurred, because even before the pandemic we were in the early stages of an automation revolution. The idea that everyone needs to be back at work for the economy to be healthy may prove to be an outdated idea by 2040. Working remotely and working fewer hours will soon be the norm, so this pandemic is just a practice test for the future. Do not get me wrong, it hurts and it is horrible, I am suffering a bit financially, but it was going to happen sooner or later. In 1837, the average work week in USA and Europe was between 69 to 94 hours. Now it is between 30 to 40 hours. In the future, it could be between 5 to 10 hours. At least in the initial years of this technological revolution, there will be civil unrest and perhaps violent extremism. There will be a mental health crisis as people face the frustration and rejection of being fired. With all the newfound free time, people will struggle with feelings of "uselessness". People will need to find new hobbies to stay sane or drown their sorrows. Perhaps we will see more people turning to prostitution for comfort. Nevertheless, all those automation projects that companies had planned for the future are being executed on now. Some companies are actually happy they were able to layoff workers during this pandemic. They see it as an opportunity to double down their investment on automation, which allows them to be more efficient and cost-effective.

[URL]https://www.seattletimes.com/business/robots-welcome-to-take-over-as-coronavirus-pandemic-accelerates-automation/[/URL]

[URL]https://web.archive.org/web/20140502004731/http://www.lorraine.direccte.gouv.fr/evolution-de-la-duree-du-travail-en-france-et-dans-le-monde[/URL]

[URL]https://thebulletin.brandtschool.de/why-covid-19-will-increase-automation-anxiety/[/URL]

[QUOTE=Arnold15;2453555]You suggest that all countries should lock-down the whole economy 2-3 weeks. And then everything is OK. Virus is eliminated in the whole world.

No. It would not work.
It is a new virus and there is no vaccine.

Covid-19 would come in wave after wave (compare with Spanish disease, HongKong and Asian influence).
And then all countries need to lock-down 2-3 weeks every time. Maybe every 4th or 6th month?
[/QUOTE]I will acknowledge it is not realistic, because every country would need to agree on a 2-3 week lockdown period. And not every country would be willing or capable of imposing a strict lockdown. But Vietnam has almost been able to eradicate the virus without a long lockdown period. Unlike China nobody distrusts their numbers. The problem is Vietnam is a small economy, so unfortunately they will have to reopen their borders to countries who weren't as diligent with containment.

[QUOTE]"If it were possible to wave a magic wand and make all Americans freeze in place for 14 days while sitting six feet apart, epidemiologists say, the whole epidemic would sputter to a halt. The virus would die out on every contaminated surface and, because almost everyone shows symptoms within two weeks, it would be evident who was infected. If we had enough tests for every American, even the completely asymptomatic cases could be found and isolated. The crisis would be over. Obviously, there is no magic wand, and no 300 million tests. But the goal of lockdowns and social distancing is to approximate such a total freeze."

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/22/health/coronavirus-restrictions-us.html.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Arnold15;2453555]You suggest that all countries should lock-down the whole economy 2-3 weeks. And then everything is OK. Virus is eliminated in the whole world.

No. It would not work.
It is a new virus and there is no vaccine.

Covid-19 would come in wave after wave (compare with Spanish disease, HongKong and Asian influence).
And then all countries need to lock-down 2-3 weeks every time. Maybe every 4th or 6th month?

Countries overestimated the danger of the virus.
Most people who have died by Covid-19 would die anyway within 1-2 years.
(compare: 200 000 - 1 000 000 people die every year by the annual influence)
Of course, there are exceptions, where also young people have died by covid-19, but they are in a clear minority.
[/QUOTE]I mostly agree with you that a more precise approach could have been made without a near complete shut down of society, but how could that have been done? Yes, this disease is extremely hard on the old but from just eyeballing the patients I've treated in my intensive care units, at least half of the patients were between 45 and 65. Also, looking only at fatalities may not be the most prudent approach. While many of the younger will not die, for those who survive, being hospitalized for over a month or more is nothing to scoff off. We can isolate the old, but are we going to add the middle aged and obese to that isolation group also? Because after age, obesity is really the most fatal comorbidity out there.

Also, previous post that claimed that China intentionally released the virus to get ahead economically seems pretty ill founded and pretty Trumpish in it's hate mongering tone. I mean, speculation is one thing, but assertion in such a pre-convinced tone is a rather "internet" of you.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2453375]China was the first to sacrifice their economy by implementing national lockdown. They had no way of predicting with 100 percent certainty if any other country would follow suit. The only thing that they could have maybe predicted was that countries with a one-party-system would be more efficient at containing the crisis and getting compliance from the populace.

The fundamental problem is almost every country underestimated the threat. Vietnam is the notable exception. I believe their national lockdown only lasted between two and three weeks. On paper, Vietnam should have been one of the worse-hit battlefields for the war against the coronavirus. Brazil, USA, Europe, and Russia all have significantly more financial resources. And being farther from the Wuhan epicenter, all these countries had significantly more time to prepare for the virus. With the exception of masks and the strict controls of the borders, daily life in Vietnam is already back to normal, even in Saigon which has two of the most population dense districts in the world.

So here is the sad lesson: if all of the Western countries had (1) taken action early, and (2) implemented a super-strict lockdown where 97 percent of population did not leave the house, not only would fewer lives have been lost but the economy would have only needed to be closed for 2-3 weeks. As I mentioned before, many Western European countries practically close their economy the entire month of August as is. And countries like France, with the amount of protesting they do, even more.

[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_city_districts_by_population_density[/URL][/QUOTE]Our Secretary of State Pompeo suggested this virus came out of a Wuhan lab. It is possible that they grew the virus, unleashed it on their own population to give appearance of innocence and randomness, and contained it very efficiently and methodically and carefully leaked it to other countries, particularly the key geopolitical rivals. US has clearly been more impacted by this virus than China has been, and most of Europe has been crippled as well. If they wanted to narrow the economic gap between them to the West, this was an ingenious way to do it.

Yeah, Vietnam managed it well and so did Korea, Taiwan, etc. Those nations had past experiences with such viruses, their governments were more alert, their people love their masks, and they shut down in time. Their culture is such that they obediently follow government instructions. Out in the west, we are individualistic, love our freedoms, hate masks, and we had never seen such a pandemic in our lifetimes. I would not chalk this up as if these Asian nations are somehow superior in anyway.

But this is exactly the problem since the end of the soviet union, capitalism is leading the world in a terrible way, our leaders are just incapable to protect us even against a basic virus. The guys who are pushing for more capitalism are the first to ask financial support from the different government which is exactly the opposite of their own values. Most of the rich are stupid and their children even more or they will not spend their time to buy useless and stupid things, like LV, Porsche, BMW. Prada, Channel, Lancome 100,200, 300 years back the rich people were the most educated, today I don t believe it is still the case. They don t want to have educated people they just want to have customers who follow their commands (they control most of the news) don t think but buy and even better with credit.

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2453610]Our Secretary of State Pompeo suggested this virus came out of a Wuhan lab. It is possible that they grew the virus, unleashed it on their own population to give appearance of innocence and randomness, and contained it very efficiently and methodically and carefully leaked it to other countries, particularly the key geopolitical rivals. US has clearly been more impacted by this virus than China has been, and most of Europe has been crippled as well. If they wanted to narrow the economic gap between them to the West, this was an ingenious way to do it.

Yeah, Vietnam managed it well and so did Korea, Taiwan, etc. Those nations had past experiences with such viruses, their governments were more alert, their people love their masks, and they shut down in time. Their culture is such that they obediently follow government instructions. Out in the west, we are individualistic, love our freedoms, hate masks, and we had never seen such a pandemic in our lifetimes. I would not chalk this up as if these Asian nations are somehow superior in anyway.[/QUOTE]I think this stretches credibility to its max and is an illustration of how far fetched conspiracy theories can be on both ends of the political spectrum. I am no fan of China, but is easy to see how they could have contained this. China is first of all far more organized and effective an authoritarian (totalitarian is probably more apt) than other aspiring dictatorial regimes like Russia. China's levers of control over society are also far greater than Russia's, things like their social credit system and the zillions of cameras they have surveying the population and the facial recognition AI they use to identify people in no time in an immense crowd.

1. In the West, we have far greater civil liberties and can not make use of such tools, but the Chinese could, no government in Europe could have imposed a lock down on this scale and with such brutality. I think the Czechs have had one of the most effective ones in Europe, but it pales in comparison.

2. China is far more organized than even other authoritarian (totalitarian) regimes, ie Russia, and other mildly authoritarian regimes that do not respect human rights as much, ie India. Russia's state control apparatus is not capable of doing what the Chinese could and have done, the virus will spread far more widely in Russia, even though it is far more sparsely populated. Imagine India, I am using India as an example to illustrate the point and make it obvious. Does anyone doubt that the Chinese would be a 100 xs more effective in containing this outbreak than India, I didn't think so?

All that I am willing to believe is that they inadvertently let this loose from a lab by accident, that they would release it and risk such economic and political damage (to their leadership) is quite far fetched. Their economy is doing worse this year than at any point in the past 4 decades or so.

About this being a trick to undermine the western economies, this is truly one of the most far fetched, I would use another adjective, theory I have heard. China is heavily dependent on exports and not domestic consumption, in facts its economy is skewed heavily towards investment and less consumption. Therefore if a lot of its trading partners in the west are in economic despair, China will also suffer enormously and that will have political repercussions at home. China actually needs the west more than the west probably needs it, much more of its GDP depends on trade, and its needs an economically healthy west.

Notable politicians in the US are trying to use China as an excuse to hide their own inaction in the early phases of this pandemic, they are on record numerous times dismissing the threat of this pandemic and telling everyone to calm down. The same person blaming China now does not hold much water. Of course China is not open and forthright about a lot of things and of course they try to put a shiny gloss on things and hide their errors, but willfully inflicting such damage on themselves and their main trading partners would have been highly questionable to say the least.

This is from a web site that is usually a fan of the right, but still balanced in many ways.

[URL]https://nationalinterest.org/blog/skeptics/dont-listen-%E2%80%98china-covered-coronavirus%E2%80%99-narrative-157241[/URL]

This virus is different and has the right mix of lethality and contagiousness to spread so effectively, other viruses have not succeeded as well.

[QUOTE=DeltaIndigo;2453870]I think this stretches credibility to its max and is an illustration of how far fetched conspiracy theories can be on both ends of the political spectrum. I am no fan of China, but is easy to see how they could have contained this. China is first of all far more organized and effective an authoritarian (totalitarian is probably more apt) than other aspiring dictatorial regimes like Russia. China's levers of control over society are also far greater than Russia's, things like their social credit system and the zillions of cameras they have surveying the population and the facial recognition AI they use to identify people in no time in an immense crowd.

1. In the West, we have far greater civil liberties and can not make use of such tools, but the Chinese could, no government in Europe could have imposed a lock down on this scale and with such brutality. I think the Czechs have had one of the most effective ones in Europe, but it pales in comparison.

2. China is far more organized than even other authoritarian (totalitarian) regimes, ie Russia, and other mildly authoritarian regimes that do not respect human rights as much, ie India. Russia's state control apparatus is not capable of doing what the Chinese could and have done, the virus will spread far more widely in Russia, even though it is far more sparsely populated. Imagine India, I am using India as an example to illustrate the point and make it obvious. Does anyone doubt that the Chinese would be a 100 xs more effective in containing this outbreak than India, I didn't think so?.[/QUOTE]Well, no doubt it is a conspiracy theory and no, it is not my personally created concoction. As for how likely it is, who knows?! The suspicion that it did not jump from a bat or some other wild animal to humans by accident is taking hold, especially in GOP circles in US. As I said and as many of us know, Pompeo has openly suggested it was created in a Wuhan lab and China has officially condemned that suggestion. And BTW, Pompeo is probably the closest confidant of Trump in his cabinet and Trump fully subscribes to Pompeo views and feels the same way. However, China has done precious little to truly dispel any such theory because they simply refuse any objective, 3rd party investigation and one of the first things epidemiologists and virologists do in these situations is to track it down to Patient#1, which has been impossible with this virus. I was watching Contagion the other day and pretty much all of the movie played out identically in reality except that Patient#1 is not a stunning blonde Paltrow, and even worse we have no clue who that patient is.

If it was not accidental but somewhat man made, or man played a part in either the creation or dispersion of this virus, then it begs a second question -- how did it jump out of lab to humans? Was it intentional or accidental?? If it was intentional, what was the intent? Any intent to create it in the first place and "allowing it to leak out of the lab" can hardly be categorized as benign or even innocent. Yes, Trump and Pompeo have stopped at suggesting that the virus originated in Wuhan lab and did not (yet) take the next step and suggest that it was done by the Chinese government with a malicious intent. They may or may not take that next step, but it is being actively debated in GOP's underbelly circles.

BTW, I think you agree that China contained this very effectively (whether they truly had 80,000 infections and 4,500 dead or if those #s are ten times higher), and I had already said the same. The only point you dispute is that whether it was a runaway virus and they contained it; or if they leaked it, allowed it to proliferate and then contained it. That again brings us back to the intent, which I don't think anyone here is in a position to refute with authority, for the simple fact that I don't think anyone posting here is clued into Chinese politburo.

As for the relative economic impact, we can debate it all day long. China has the reputation of playing a long term game. Even the above conspiracy theory acknowledges that China knew aforehand that their own economy will get impacted adversely but they were prepared for it as a necessary price to pay to inflict a greater damage on their key rivals, and so far that calculation (if it was the true intent) has played to plan.

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2453610]Our Secretary of State Pompeo suggested this virus came out of a Wuhan lab. It is possible that they grew the virus, unleashed it on their own population to give appearance of innocence and randomness, and contained it very efficiently and methodically and carefully leaked it to other countries, particularly the key geopolitical rivals. US has clearly been more impacted by this virus than China has been, and most of Europe has been crippled as well. If they wanted to narrow the economic gap between them to the West, this was an ingenious way to do it.[/QUOTE]Right now the Chinese economy is still number two by a far margin, and highly dependent on the Western economies. If this is the year 2030, the BRI is complete, and China has shifted some of that dependency to a rising Africa, then perhaps a "deliberate spread" theory might make more sense. But in 2020, this deliberate spread theory represents a "nuclear option" that would hurt China just as much as the Western economies. If China was hell-bent on self-destruction and going full kamikaze to inflict economic harm on USA, it could sell its US treasury bonds. But they haven't. Even though tensions with Washington DC have increased, Beijing likes those low risk, high yields much more. This is no different than pay sex world. I have seen "tensions" rise in the FKK clubs: (1) WG gets short-changed at money locker, (2) monger gets overcharged at money locker, (3) monger cuts in line in front of another monger. Tempers flare, shouting ensues in Romanian, English, German, but just prior to the point of escalation, all parties cool down. Nobody wants to get banned from the club!

Although China is trying to transition away, it is still the "world's manufacturing plant":

[QUOTE]We should not forget that China, the worlds largest exporter, needs the rest of the world for its own economic recovery.

There are at least two reasons China depends on the global economy for its own recovery: Chinas large amount of exports to other countries and the continuity of its Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) Chinas massive infrastructure projects, many of which are located in countries affected by COVID-19.

To ensure its economic recovery, China should assist countries involved in (BRI) initiative and improve its relationship with its biggest export destination, the United States.

https://theconversation.com/chinas-economic-recovery-depends-on-the-rest-of-the-world-135319
[/QUOTE]Deploying a disease as communicable as CV19 introduces political, social, and economic chaos, something which the CCP does not like. The idea of a weapon is that it hits your intended target, not causes collateral damage that could come back to harm you. In other words, you want a gun that can aim. Not a gun that will spray in unpredictable directions including your own. CCP had no way of predicting that other countries would lock down or their ability to contain the virus. Because China silenced the Wuhan doctors in early stages of outbreak, Chinese millennials, who were mostly politically apathetic before, have now had a political awakening and have started to criticise the regime. That is a huge threat to the future stability and existence of the CCP.

At any point in time, there are thousands of Chinese scientists living in the USA. Not that uncommon for a Chinese scientist to work in the West for several decades, then get lured back to China with insane amounts of money and lofty job titles. One of the ones that returned to China in 2019 was a 59-year old cancer researcher, who just developed a CV19 test back in Chinese labs. Would China willingly harm some of its best and brightest by unleashing a virus on them? [URL]https://www.propublica.org/article/the-trump-administration-drove-him-back-to-china-where-he-invented-a-fast-coronavirus-test[/URL].

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2453921]Right now the Chinese economy is still number two by a far margin, and highly dependent on the Western economies. If this is the year 2030, the BRI is complete, and China has shifted some of that dependency to a rising Africa, then perhaps a "deliberate spread" theory might make more sense. But in 2020, this deliberate spread theory represents a "nuclear option" that would hurt China just as much as the Western economies. If China was hell-bent on self-destruction and going full kamikaze to inflict economic harm on USA, it could sell its US treasury bonds. But they haven't. Even though tensions with Washington DC have increased, Beijing likes those low risk, high yields much more. This is no different than pay sex world. I have seen "tensions" rise in the FKK clubs: (1) WG gets short-changed at money locker, (2) monger gets overcharged at money locker, (3) monger cuts in line in front of another monger. Tempers flare, shouting ensues in Romanian, English, German, but just prior to the point of escalation, all parties cool down. Nobody wants to get banned from the club!

Although China is trying to transition away, it is still the "world's manufacturing plant":.[/QUOTE]There have been suggestions in right wing media that Trump should just abrogate the bonds held by China as a reparation for the harm inflicted on US. Trump has played that down for now given the current market conditions and the stress such an action would cause in the market. If he will entertain that idea more seriously in the future is tough to know.

BTW, it is not as if China has a trillion dollars sitting in the bank free and clear because that amount has matching liabilities, and reducing its dollar reserves will most certainly put even more stress on CNY which has already lost 4% vs dollar since mid Jan and 12% in roughly 2 years. At a time when its exports are likely to be weak, cutting dollar reserves will not do any favors to itself and yes a weak RMB would normally help with regards to exports except right now every other economy is weak and hence there are many places and things China could export to, and right now most western nations which are the primary export markets for China are super upset with China after the role China played in this virus proliferation, and it is a folly for China to think it can export its way out of trouble. So, no, I reject this theory that China is being judicious and responsible because it did not *trim down dollar reserves. China held its dollar reserves because it had no other choice. Plus, there is no other asset or currency it can replace at that amount, Euro depreciates even faster and there is at least some risk Euro could simply break up if this German court ruling against ECB holds and Italy and southern Europeans decide they had enough and try Italexit or Spainixit. Yen is safe enough but not large enough market to buy a trillion dollars worth in a jiffy. No, China has not much recourse on this.

And with all due respect saying something like "CV19 introduces political, social, and economic chaos, something which the CCP does not like" is naive and presumptuous because you and I both have no clue what they like and don't know what they are prepared to do and not prepared to do. China has been increasingly belligerent, nationalism has been stoked up at home to a fever pitch, Xi Jinping wants a third term and he is not getting it done on the home front on the economy side, and there is no telling what risks he is prepared to take. He sent a whole bunch of people to prison and death cells as part of his anti corruption drive and made a lot of enemies. He cannot hope for a quiet retirement as Jiang Zemin or Hu Jintao achieved. It is either dictator for life or bust. He is probably prepared for risks which normal Chinese leaders might not take.

The simple fact is that they did not allow any 3rd party investigation of this virus origin and we still don't know (a) if it was organic or man made (b) if it was spread globally despite their prevention efforts or if they carefully and surreptitiously leaked it. Only a true investigation can establish the facts, and there is only one party which is blocking the investigation and it is fair to question their motives.

As China asserts itself globally, its diplomats around the world are taking on foes big and small.

The brash new attitude, playing out on social media, in newsprint and across negotiating tables, marks a turn for China's once low-key diplomats. It's part of a deliberate shift within the Foreign Ministry, spurred on by Chinese leaders seeking to claim what they see as their nation's rightful place in the world, in the face of an increasingly inward-looking USA.

China's state media describe it as a "Wolf Warrior" ethos—named for a nationalistic Chinese film franchise about a Rambo-like soldier-turned-security contractor who battles American-led mercenary groups.

In Venezuela, a major recipient of Beijing's aid, the Chinese embassy lashed out at local legislators who described the pathogen that causes Covid-19 as the "China coronavirus. " Those legislators, the embassy said in a March statement on its website, were suffering from a "political virus."

"Since you are already very sick from this, hurry up to ask for proper treatment," the statement said. "The first step might be to wear the masks and shut up."

Read the rest of the article below. There have been many such articles in media. I understand China also attacked India recently from another WSJ article (or perhaps FT). Xi Jinping is feeling that he needs to deliver and his lieutenants are stepping up attacks. Obviously, there is the huge hostility to Australia now. The question is, what is China hiding and why is there such alarm on their part to any objective investigation if they are innocent?

[URL]https://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-wolf-warrior-diplomats-are-ready-to-fight-11589896722?mod=searchresults&page=1&pos=1[/URL]

[QUOTE=DeltaIndigo;2453870]I think this stretches credibility to its max and is an illustration of how far fetched conspiracy theories can be on both ends of the political spectrum. I am no fan of China, but is easy to see how they could have contained this. China is first of all far more organized and effective an authoritarian (totalitarian is probably more apt) than other aspiring dictatorial regimes like Russia. China's levers of control over society are also far greater than Russia's, things like their social credit system and the zillions of cameras they have surveying the population and the facial recognition AI they use to identify people in no time in an immense crowd.

1. In the West, we have far greater civil liberties and can not make use of such tools, but the Chinese could, no government in Europe could have imposed a lock down on this scale and with such brutality. I think the Czechs have had one of the most effective ones in Europe, but it pales in comparison.[/QUOTE]Do you know real figures for deaths in Wuhan and whole huge China? Do you think only 1 person can know the truth? I think nobody knows. In Western Europe, we just know they lied for figures and Chinese people confirmed even they are afraid of their government, and about when it started, not on international market on December as the whole world thought at this time because not many deaths at this time, but before October. But as I m not paranoiac like US, I think it was just accident through safety and not a virus weapon, and at least US know more about Trump taking chloroquine bonbons, telling confined is useless, let s go to the beach and play golf, 100 000 deaths talk and they will get much more, from more than 30 millions unemployed, Texas falling down under, and more than 10 millions illegals, much more than 50 millions with no health insurance who can t afford healthcare, Obama please run back, for sure I would prefer him, rather than a crazy ready for anything, when his model, from ex communist wife seems more clever. When San Francisco is a beautiful town for me, but NYC is just a magic town, when Vegas didn't impressed me much because so fake when I walked the whole strip and back from Circus and even to downtown where I found a WG I could see, when I was given papers for escorts on the strip, but I can t forget fridge trucks and not only one in streets and Hart Island putting people they didn't know about all together. About CIA, I remember when I was a child, hearing about watergate and Nixon who had to leave, about lies and paranoia under cold war, they can compete with communist China for lies. Both are dangerous for me, and Western Europe have to protect for a better safety, for more independent, when we are a 300 millions people market and we have the highest standards for quality and way of life. France is number 1, Spain number 3 and Italy should be 4 or 5, for tourism for attractive countries, Paris being number 1 for towns, before NYC, LA, Rio or Tokyo which are much bigger.

[QUOTE=Arnold15;2453136]The only accurate way to compare countries is to count "excess deaths".
How many died this year compared to previous years.[/QUOTE]You're partly right so I suggest you take a look at those figures:

[URL]https://euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps#excess-mortality[/URL]

You go all the way down the webpage, you select Denmark, Norway, Finland and Sweden and for the week range you select all the weeks from 2020. It looks like Sweden is not doing so well compared to other northern countries.

You can also use this source:

[URL]https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&time=2020-03-19..&deathsMetric=true&dailyFreq=true&perCapita=true&smoothing=7&country=BEL~SWE~NOR~FIN~DNK[/URL]

Guess who is now way above Belgium which counts every unexplained death as related to coronavirus?

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2453965]There have been suggestions in right wing media that Trump should just abrogate the bonds held by China as a reparation for the harm inflicted on US. Trump has played that down for now given the current market conditions and the stress such an action would cause in the market. If he will entertain that idea more seriously in the future is tough to know.
[/QUOTE]Knowing what is in the Politburo's head as you state is impossible but we do have a reasonable idea of the rational calculus that would be in their interest. With this rational calculus this would be quite a risky move. I have only quoted a small part of your previous report because the main source of these theories are actually politically motivated.

First of all there is a certain prominent right wing politician who is fearing for his re-election and is trying to cover up his initial missteps. He is on record saying numerous times that this would be a minor thing and is totally under control, now he is looking for a scapegoat to deflect attention away from these missteps. And accuracy and factual arguments are not his strong point to say the least. Furthermore a demographic that he relies on disproportionately, ie older voters, are not happy with this record as regarding the pandemic.

A lot of these theories have come out of this political discourse, not everyone who believes it has this motive, but it is spread by many people who have questionable motives, which in my view makes them more suspect. Trump has gotten rid of many non sycophantic cabinet members and many of those that survive do so by being totally subservient and sycophantic. In my opinion Pompeo fits this description, he is one of the biggest sycophants around and will always support his bosses' wild theories. For some reason Mike Pence avoids getting trapped into supporting these theories, he manages to avoid the worst of the spot light some how. I do not think it is Trump listening to Pompeo, rather the reverse.

Anyhow, that is really all I have to say on this matter. Also the Chinese could not be sure that they would be able to contain this had they released it deliberately, in fact it still remains a danger to them, albeit on a far reduced scale.

The news doesn't spell out if travel from those 26 countries into Germany also will be allowed. The statement from Bavarian premier seems to indicate otherwise.

In any case, there is no indication that they will open travel to people from outside EU. Such as US, for example.

And if and when they do, will they quarantine for x days? Any quarantine is a total no no for a sex tourist coming to DE for a week of sex.

And of course, none of this says when the sex clubs will actually be open.

Continue to think the likelihood of large FKKs opening up as they operated pre Covid is very small. My bet was that there is less than 5% chance by Sept, less than 25% chances by December.

——————————————.

A government source said the cabinet may also decide to lift a warning against travel to 26 fellow EU countries plus Britain, Iceland, Norway, Switzerland and Liechtenstein from June 15, opening the way to separate advice for specific regions.

Markus Soeder, premier of Bavaria, the hardest-hit state, voiced opposition to moving too fast in reopening tourism.

"We have in Italy, Spain and France completely different infection numbers compared to Germany so I ask the federal government to think very carefully about this," he said.

"Nobody should be fooled. Corona remains deadly," Soeder said, describing Thuringia state's shift towards adopting voluntary, localised measures as a "fatal signal".

In a nod to Bavaria's objections, the cabinet might postpone its decision by a week, but still lift the blanket travel warning from mid-June, media group RND reported.

[QUOTE=DeltaIndigo;2454100]Anyhow, that is really all I have to say on this matter. Also the Chinese could not be sure that they would be able to contain this had they released it deliberately, in fact it still remains a danger to them, albeit on a far reduced scale.[/QUOTE]That China would have intentionally released a deadly virus upon the world is one of the silliest conspiracy theories I have ever heard. With world commerce being so interlinked, and China having the second largest economy in the world, that would be like shooting themselves in the head. No way they acted intentionally in that way, but they did try to cover it up, and then were slow to tell the world what was happening. We may never know the full truth.

[QUOTE=DeltaIndigo;2454100]Knowing what is in the Politburo's head as you state is impossible but we do have a reasonable idea of the rational calculus that would be in their interest. With this rational calculus this would be quite a risky move. I have only quoted a small part of your previous report because the main source of these theories are actually politically motivated.

First of all there is a certain prominent right wing politician who is fearing for his re-election and is trying to cover up his initial missteps. He is on record saying numerous times that this would be a minor thing and is totally under control, now he is looking for a scapegoat to deflect attention away from these missteps. And accuracy and factual arguments are not his strong point to say the least. Furthermore a demographic that he relies on disproportionately, ie older voters, are not happy with this record as regarding the pandemic..[/QUOTE]In February when Gino was continually advocating that clubs should selectively deny admission to Asian looking people, I questioned his motive. I said "if any admission denial is to be implemented, it should be done at the borders. It is discriminatory to be denying admission to people based solely on their ethnicity look at the club doors".

At that time, almost no one came to defend my stance. A few took Gino's side. There were multiple messages in those threads, can be easily verified by clicking on my history.

So, I am pretty sure I can be spared all these spurious charges in my direction.

I appreciate the political discourse and insightful lessons from you Delta. The point still remains (a) the origin of the virus is not established because China is blocking any investigation (b) consequently we also have zero clarity on how it spread and how much of the spread and leak was intentional and unintentional (c) yes, many countries are adversely impacted w. R. T. Their economies, including China BUT some are impacted much worse than others, and so far the trends are that China is less impacted than its key geopolitical rivals. If you have proof to refute these points, please do present them. Whether China foresaw how the impact would work out and was prepared to sacrifice a few pawns to capture the Queen of its opponent, that I do not know but there is no proof to say such a thing didn't happen. I will let you put probabilities.

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2454106]In February when Gino was continually advocating that clubs should selectively deny admission to Asian looking people, I questioned his motive. I said "if any admission denial is to be implemented, it should be done at the borders. It is discriminatory to be denying admission to people based solely on their ethnicity look at the club doors".

At that time, almost no one came to defend my stance. A few took Gino's side. There were multiple messages in those threads, can be easily verified by clicking on my history.

So, I am pretty sure I can be spared all these spurious charges in my direction.

I appreciate the political discourse and insightful lessons from you Delta. The point still remains (a) the origin of the virus is not established because China is blocking any investigation (b) consequently we also have zero clarity on how it spread and how much of the spread and leak was intentional and unintentional (c) yes, many countries are adversely impacted w. R. T. Their economies, including China BUT some are impacted much worse than others, and so far the trends are that China is less impacted than its key geopolitical rivals. If you have proof to refute these points, please do present them. Whether China foresaw how the impact would work out and was prepared to sacrifice a few pawns to capture the Queen of its opponent, that I do not know but there is no proof to say such a thing didn't happen. I will let you put probabilities.[/QUOTE]My argument wasn't about probabilities or the hypothetical chess game, I still think it is an extremely far fetched theory, but about the origin of these theories. You can see that Mr. T and his cohorts have played an enormous role in propagating these theories. A few points that should be obvious to anyone whether you support him or not, honesty is not his strong point and I do differ with you on one point, Pompeo is a total ass kissing sycophant who will say anything to please Mr T not an independent source of information.

The allegations you describe have been spurred in large part by the political face saving theories pushed by this group, that was the gist of my argument. I still think the theory is very far fetched on its merits but I choose to not even go into that this time since you know my arguments in that respect about how futile a strategy I think that would be, but you differ and disagree, that is fine and your opinion. This does boil down to a matter of conviction as well, yes the Chinese can be totally ruthless, but I believe not this ruthless and they would not take risks like this, you believe otherwise. Fine.

All I wanted to point out that a lot of the ammunition for these theories is highly questionable and with obvious political motives.

Yes, we are all aware that world commerce is interlinked, not exactly breaking news. The question is who is hurt more, and if the relative pain is less, is it plausible that a desperate, rogue regime act irresponsibly and take such a horrible step -- the very nature of it being such that even the people living in countries which are being targeted by such action would exclaim "No, they could not do such a thing, could they? No, I don't believe they did. I mean, they could and't, nobody would".

I am looking at Bloomberg screen right now. The expected real GDP in US in 2020 is -5.7% from +2.3% in 2019. Investment is expected to be -9.8% yoy, unemployment is expected to be 11% at year end, exports are expected to -7.1% yoy. Debt as of GDP is expected to surge to 99% from 79% in 2019. In contrast, China's GDP is expected to be +1.8% in 2020 from 6. 1% in 2019, unemployment is expected to move to 4.3% at year end from 3. 6% at the end of 2019, industrial production is expected to be at 1.6% compared to 5.5% for 2019. Germany's GDP is expected to be -6.2% for 2020 from +0. 6% in 2019, Industrial production is expected to be -8.1% yoy, exports -10.9% yoy; France is expected to have GDP -9.1%, Japan real GDP of -4.7%, and so on.

While these are consensus economist expectations and not the actual #s, global economy works on expectations and they do show China is still growing this year and coming out relatively unscathed, especially compared to key global rivals.

[QUOTE=DeltaIndigo;2454148]I do differ with you on one point, Pompeo is a total ass kissing sycophant who will say anything to please Mr T not an independent source of information.[/QUOTE]Well, I did not say Pompeo was not a ass kissing sycophant; one has to be, to gain Trump's full confidence.

I said the following: "Pompeo is probably the closest confidant of Trump in his cabinet and Trump fully subscribes to Pompeo views and feels the same way". I did not say Pompeo is an independent source of information -- he does reflect and channel Trump's views but the reason his statements matter more is because he has Trump's confidence (as opposed to say, Tillerson did or Fauci now -- so, when Tillerson or Fauci say something, you can dismiss them as not reflecting the views of POTUS, but when Pompeo says something, he does speak for Trump).

That is the key point I was making -- that the view that the virus is man made and came out of a Wuhan Lab is effectively the view of US government at the moment. We can all disagree but it IS the US government view for now. So, there remains only the second question in their view, which they have not yet articulated but might do so in the future "did Chinese government intentionally leak it?

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2454155]Well, I did not say Pompeo was not a ass kissing sycophant; one has to be, to gain Trump's full confidence.

I said the following: "Pompeo is probably the closest confidant of Trump in his cabinet and Trump fully subscribes to Pompeo views and feels the same way". I did not say Pompeo is an independent source of information -- he does reflect and channel Trump's views but the reason his statements matter more is because he has Trump's confidence (as opposed to say, Tillerson did or Fauci now -- so, when Tillerson or Fauci say something, you can dismiss them as not reflecting the views of POTUS, but when Pompeo says something, he does speak for Trump).

That is the key point I was making -- that the view that the virus is man made and came out of a Wuhan Lab is effectively the view of US government at the moment. We can all disagree but it IS the US government view for now. So, there remains only the second question in their view, which they have not yet articulated but might do so in the future "did Chinese government intentionally leak it?[/QUOTE]What do you mean by the US government, Trump and his inner circle? Is that the view of NIH or Fauci, the medical arm of the US government? It has become bizarre with Trump, on the one hand it is his Federal guidelines about distancing and the lock down that he pushes various political allies to protest against. A lot of the time there isn't a coherent view, there is the official view and polite policy on the one hand and Mr T and some prominent allies on the other hand.

So if it just Mr. T and Pompeo, I still wouldn't consider if the "official" view of the US government. Also Mr. T does contradict himself a lot and say one thing one day and the total opposite the next day. He is obviously getting stressed about the prospects of his re election and lashing out at various other parties for blame. Look I am not a doctor or molecular biologist, but I thought the overwhelming consensus is that this is not man made and is totally consistent with natural evolution, there will always be some voices that dissent of course.

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2454151]Yes, we are all aware that world commerce is interlinked, not exactly breaking news. The question is who is hurt more, and if the relative pain is less, is it plausible that a desperate, rogue regime act irresponsibly and take such a horrible step -- the very nature of it being such that even the people living in countries which are being targeted by such action would exclaim "No, they could not do such a thing, could they? No, I don't believe they did. I mean, they could and't, nobody would".[/QUOTE]Or conspiratorial China? Look, it doesn't matter "who is hurt more" if you did so much damage so as to smash your own economy. That's what we call a "Pyrrhic victory" (at too great a cost to be worthwhile to the victor). Now, I don't know what economic school of thought you come from, but I would suggest that going from a predicted 6. 1% GDP to 1. 8% GDP would be some pretty significant self-inflicted economic damage if they did it on purpose, and far from coming out "unscathed". Not to mention what such a stupid act would do to a country's international reputation. They already have a sketchy reputation for how they handle their internal affairs. To interfere in the internal affairs of other countries, including major trading partners, by intentionally releasing a deadly virus takes it all to another level. I'm no China fan, but I give them credit for being more intelligent than that. Again, it's just another silly conspiracy theory. The world will be better off if we get on with this and start working together to try to solve the problem versus finger pointing and tossing around unfounded charges and conspiracy theories, like it was the USA army that unleashed the virus upon China. Come on people! And by the way, I was one of the few to stand up strong against Gino's posts.

[QUOTE=DeltaIndigo;2454167]What do you mean by the US government, Trump and his inner circle? Is that the view of NIH or Fauci, the medical arm of the US government? It has become bizarre with Trump, on the one hand it is his Federal guidelines about distancing and the lock down that he pushes various political allies to protest against. A lot of the time there isn't a coherent view, there is the official view and polite policy on the one hand and Mr T and some prominent allies on the other hand.

So if it just Mr. T and Pompeo, I still wouldn't consider if the "official" view of the US government. Also Mr. T does contradict himself a lot and say one thing one day and the total opposite the next day. He is obviously getting stressed about the prospects of his re election and lashing out at various other parties for blame. Look I am not a doctor or molecular biologist, but I thought the overwhelming consensus is that this is not man made and is totally consistent with natural evolution, there will always be some voices that dissent of course.[/QUOTE]Yes, that is how it works. Fauci can be fired by Trump and replaced with someone else by Trump. Fauci cannot fire Trump and Fauci cannot replace Trump with someone else. Until Jan 20,2021, Trump's views represent the US government views, like it or not. I acknowledge Trump changes his views, but until he does, the latest articulation by Pompeo can be taken as representing the views of POTUS.

Look, I am not taking a personal view on the origin of Corona. I am just saying that US government of which this POTUS speaks with an absolute authority at the current time, has taken a stance. There is not enough info to incontrovertibly refute his stance because any independent investigation has not been allowed. While Trump speaks with a language that can make you wince, other nations have been very unhappy as well. To wit Australia; and relationship between Aussies and China is at all time low, because Australia was bold enough to ask for answers and China does not like nations in its neighborhood who question the mighty China.

I am not aware that any overwhelming scientific consensus on this subject was already formed when the scientists did not have access to the region of origin and were unable to perform any study.

As you say, we can agree to disagree. And I reiterate this is not even my theory nor that I fully subscribe to it. I don't even deny that the probability of this theory being accurate is not too high. But I would not assign a probability of zero, not until it can be proven wrong convincingly; there is no question that on the economy side, the virus has hurt US and EU and even JP considerably worse than it has hurt China, based on the numbers I already printed below.

Motive is a powerful indicator when investigators examine a crime, and the narrowing of economic gap coupled with pressure at home that Xi Jinping has been facing due to trade fallout and slowing economy presents one powerful motive in my view, even if the risk seems extraordinarily foolish.

France forbid chloroquine, more dangerous and killer than efficient to cure from virus, no competition with Trump. Western Europe don't even tell about japanese avigan, for efficiency versus virus.

[QUOTE=TheCane;2454172]Or conspiratorial China? Look, it doesn't matter "who is hurt more" if you did so much damage so as to smash your own economy. That's what we call a "Pyrrhic victory" (at too great a cost to be worthwhile to the victor). Now, I don't know what economic school of thought you come from, but I would suggest that going from a predicted 6. 1% GDP to 1. 8% GDP would be some pretty significant self-inflicted economic damage if they did it on purpose, and far from coming out "unscathed". Not to mention what such a stupid act would do to a country's international reputation. They already have a sketchy reputation for how they handle their internal affairs. To interfere in the internal affairs of other countries, including major trading partners, by intentionally releasing a deadly virus takes it all to another level. I'm no China fan, but I give them more credit for being more intelligent than that. Again, it's just another silly conspiracy theory. The world will be better off if we get on with this and start working together to try to solve the problem versus finger pointing and tossing around unfounded charges and conspiracy theories, like it was the USA army that unleashed the virus upon China. Come on people! And by the way, I was one of the few to stand up strong against Gino's posts.[/QUOTE]Well, I appreciate that you stood up against Gino but his fire was directed at me from start to finish (he has been pretty silent, hasn't he been; hmm hope he is doing OK). I even have been skipping GT for a while now, although it very much helps that I no longer like this club in making my "principled decision" hehe.

Anyway, I come from the school that says China has a rogue regime which is impeding an investigation that is in the interest of all nations given the amount of global damage that got inflicted on everyone, whether it is number of lives lost or the economic damage inflicted. And yes, US lost in many ways big time but it may be that the biggest price to be paid in the end would be coming from the unfortunate nations in LatAM (Brazil is getting decimated as we speak, it is a pure heart break nation at the moment), India and Africa and Pakistan and Bangladesh, and so on.

"what such a stupid act would do to a country's international reputation" -- well, I can submit to you that China's international reputation was far from being sterling and is much worse now than it has ever been. So, if "The world will be better off if we get on with this and start working together to try to solve the problem", a huge part of the working together begins with understanding the origin of the virus and its nature and this very much constitutes what an epidemiologist does except in this instance they can't and no prizes for guessing why such an investigation is not happening.

[QUOTE=TheCane;2454172]Or conspiratorial China? Look, it doesn't matter "who is hurt more" if you did so much damage so as to smash your own economy. That's what we call a "Pyrrhic victory" (at too great a cost to be worthwhile to the victor). Now, I don't know what economic school of thought you come from, but I would suggest that going from a predicted 6. 1% GDP to 1. 8% GDP would be some pretty significant self-inflicted economic damage if they did it on purpose, and far from coming out "unscathed". Not to mention what such a stupid act would do to a country's international reputation. They already have a sketchy reputation for how they handle their internal affairs. To interfere in the internal affairs of other countries, including major trading partners, by intentionally releasing a deadly virus takes it all to another level. I'm no China fan, but I give them more credit for being more intelligent than that. Again, it's just another silly conspiracy theory. The world will be better off if we get on with this and start working together to try to solve the problem versus finger pointing and tossing around unfounded charges and conspiracy theories, like it was the USA army that unleashed the virus upon China. Come on people! And by the way, I was one of the few to stand up strong against Gino's posts.[/QUOTE]I also think the whole theory is quite ludicrous, but I am trying to refute the theory in a civilized tone. I was a student of Economics and without saying much more so that I don't reveal who I am, some close relatives of mine are Economics Professors, one of whom studies the Chinese economy quite closely.

The Chinese growth statistics are always a bit exaggerated and pumped up, some people say by a little, others say by a lot, I once had read in the Economist that 8% growth statistics in China point to a stagnant economy, this was in 2008 and now the baseline has shifted, more like 4% probably represents no real growth. There is a lot of controversy about figures in a society that is not at all transparent, but something similar is said about Chinese debt, Gordon Chang's writings discuss this in great detail, he said Chinese government debt is not really 50% of GDP but more like 200% when the debts of state owned enterprises are factored in. Not everyone agrees with him, but I can give you a source on this one, [URL]https://nationalinterest.org/feature/chinas-debt-debacle-68417[/URL] But anyhow it is quite clear to me that when the Chinese government reports figures of below 2% growth the actual situation is far worse. I concede to Pessimist that the West's growth figures are worse, but this is what you would expect from a middle income emerging market anyhow. Those countries grow faster and recover faster, sometimes (basket cases like Argentina) they fall even further but that is not common. But what has happened to China, even though it is arguably not as painful as what the US is enduring, is in no uncertain terms very politically painful for the CCP.

The shred of political legitimacy that the CCP has, the reason it has the modern "mandate of heaven" is because it is supposed to ensure prosperity and a rising standard of living. I would say this pandemic and the economic damage to China's largest trading partners is something that neither Xi nor the CCP would like to go through or are enjoying, far from it. Yes Xi has becoming increasingly authoritarian and bold, but that was in the face of relative economic success during the last decade, now this has been set back enormously.

About the virus being man made, I will let others read these sources, [URL]https://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-not-human-made-in-lab.html[/URL] and [URL]https://www.bettergov.org/news/fact-check-no-the-novel-coronavirus-was-not-man-made/[/URL].

I am not a molecular biologist, but that is the basis of my assertion that a scientific consensus seems to exist that the virus is natural. What we do know and is well known and not a dark secret that due to various epidemics, by the ways bats are responsible for many corona viruses, that Chinese doctors and scientists were harvesting natural viruses and studying them in a lab to better understand them. They might have made a mistake, but I would strongly doubt that they deliberately released it.

We do live in an age, when people literally will believe anything, conspiracy theories are very popular in general, please note that I am not talking about this one in particular and I am not aiming this comment at any one person. A careful and nuanced understanding of the underlying socio-economic, political and scientific facts actually explains and reveals a lot.

Please understand that I am not aiming this as an attack on anyone in particular, I think Pessimistic has been very cordial and civilized in this discussion. However I am honestly articulating what I think of conspiracy theories in general, often the arguments behind them are poorly backed up. If is of course far costlier to explain complex things in detail.

One last point, proving the counter factual is impossible. So if someone says something like prove God does not exist, that is not possible and does not prove God does exist. Same with this issue, prove it didn't happen is a logically and philosophically inane line of argument.

[QUOTE=DeltaIndigo;2454191]The shred of political legitimacy that the CCP has, the reason it has the modern "mandate of heaven" is because it is supposed to ensure prosperity and a rising standard of living. I would say this pandemic and the economic damage to China's largest trading partners is something that neither Xi nor the CCP would like to go through or are enjoying, far from it. Yes Xi has becoming increasingly authoritarian and bold, but that was in the face of relative economic success during the last decade, now this has been set back enormously..[/QUOTE]I am not at all in disagreement that China's economic data is generally untrustworthy and anyone who is a market participant has known that much and learned how to triangulate data to get some sense of reality over the years. Trillions of dollars are invested in markets and those are not based on wild guesswork. There is a broad consensus that China is hurt much less by covid, the Bloomberg #s I presented below is the consensus of all economists which are surveyed by Bloomberg and that includes all the large banks such as Goldman and MS to independent ones like ISI and so on. Western companies that sell in China also tell us how things are coming back to life in China vs in the west. You can dispute the relative health all you want but there is no dispute among economists as of now. As for whether it is a conspiracy theory, wildly off conspiracy theory -- those are just adjectives. I already said very clearly I put the probability at a low amount but also that you can't prove the probability is zero.

As for Xi -- he would not be first one to have made a stupid decision, would he? Wag the dog theory applies to even China, not just US or West. Whipping up nationalism when one's political back is to the wall is a time honored tradition. Will it backfire on him, was it a stupid decision if he indeed made such a decision? Only time will tell, but even if it hurts him or helps him, that is with the help of hindsight. The question is, was there any motivation and did he have the means to take that decision and act on it? In my view, yes. Whether he actually did, we will never know.

Take a ride on the metro in Suzhou (population 6. 5 + million,2 million e scooters) or Shanghai. Hop on a fast train from Guangzhou (canton) to Beijing. My Suzhou supplier says that only the "grocery stores are busy making money. 60% of Alibaba (Tao Bao are knock-offs, poor quality" I bought a shop vac, French chocolate, japanese pill cutters, genuine corona and German beer that arrived one day later. Only the rural provinces and backwaters are a "developing country" Every country has an underground economy. The MS-13 gang members repatriated to their home countries are multinational now. Banksters launder their profits. Weapons bought by straw men and Eric Holder in the USA flow freely. The only no no for the Mossad is whacking a head of state. Not so for the CIA. Well, they make the "economy scream" in Chile and train the military at Fort Benning and bomb appropriate targets in Libya with help from Tony Blair. Trump will never run out of enemies or someone else to blame. The Chinese communist Party has a long term plan while POTUS is busy painting himself into a corner while his minions steal everything that isn't nailed down. Wet markets with wild animals are all over Asia.

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2454174]I am not aware that any overwhelming scientific consensus on this subject was already formed when the scientists did not have access to the region of origin and were unable to perform any study.[/QUOTE]Scientists can look at the RNA in the samples to determine if it is man made or not, they need not go to Wuhan to make this conclusion. I agree that China is in the wrong for blocking investigations of the Wuhan labs. It suggests a possible cover-up. Maybe scientists did not follow proper safety protocols and caught the virus from infected animals, resulting in an accidental spread to the general population.

Press statement from Director of National Intelligence website:

[QUOTE]"The Intelligence Community also concurs with the wide scientific consensus that the COVID-19 virus was not manmade or genetically modified. he IC will continue to rigorously examine emerging information and intelligence to determine whether the outbreak began through contact with infected animals or if it was the result of an accident at a laboratory in Wuhan."

https://www.dni.gov/index.php/newsroom/press-releases/item/2112-intelligence-community-statement-on-origins-of-covid-19[/QUOTE][QUOTE=TheCane;2454172]Or conspiratorial China? Look, it doesn't matter "who is hurt more" if you did so much damage so as to smash your own economy. That's what we call a "Pyrrhic victory" (at too great a cost to be worthwhile to the victor). Now, I don't know what economic school of thought you come from, but I would suggest that going from a predicted 6. 1% GDP to 1. 8% GDP would be some pretty significant self-inflicted economic damage if they did it on purpose, and far from coming out "unscathed". Not to mention what such a stupid act would do to a country's international reputation. They already have a sketchy reputation for how they handle their internal affairs. To interfere in the internal affairs of other countries, including major trading partners, by intentionally releasing a deadly virus takes it all to another level. I'm no China fan, but I give them credit for being more intelligent than that.[/QUOTE]Good point about international reputation. The world does not differentiate Chinese companies from the CCP. The suspicion that the CCP's tentacles can reach deep into Chinese companies creates a certain level of distrust amongst free nations. This is why many EU nations were on the fence (or opposed a deal) with Huawei for their 5 G rollout. This was true even before CV-19. If it is found that CV-19 was used as a bioweapon intentionally, all trust is eroded to zero and the 5 G deal is scuttled completely. Even now that deal is in jeopardy, as is Huawei's future existence. The question is would the CCP sacrifice one of its tech giants for a Pyrrhic victory? The irony, of course, it that is widely believed that US intel agencies used Cisco, a private company, as an arm to spy on it European allies: [URL]https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-spying/germany-should-ban-u-s-contracting-companies-passing-data-to-nsa-report-idUSBRE9BK07P20131221[/URL].

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2454208]Scientists can look at the RNA in the samples to determine if it is man made or not, they need not go to Wuhan to make this conclusion. I agree that China is in the wrong for blocking investigations of the Wuhan labs. It suggests a possible cover-up. Maybe scientists did not follow proper safety protocols and caught the virus from infected animals, resulting in an accidental spread to the general population.

Press statement from Director of National Intelligence website:

Good point about international reputation. The world does not differentiate Chinese companies from the CCP. The suspicion that the CCP's tentacles can reach deep into Chinese companies creates a certain level of distrust amongst free nations. This is why many EU nations were on the fence (or opposed a deal) with Huawei for their 5 G rollout. This was true even before CV-19. If it is found that CV-19 was used as a bioweapon intentionally, all trust is eroded to zero and the 5 G deal is scuttled completely. Even now that deal is in jeopardy, as is Huawei's future existence. The question is would the CCP sacrifice one of its tech giants for a Pyrrhic victory?.[/QUOTE]China's industrial and governmental espionage goes much further than mere Hua Wei and I am sorry, this false equivalence between Cisco and Hua Wei or what China does to what US does is generally not accepted by anyone in the West. Hua Wei is guilty of much more than espionage. It killed much of European tech industry in the telecommunications hardware segment. There used to be dozens of companies in Europe healthy and prosperous and providing good jobs in Europe and now you have just Nokia and Ericsson both very much weakened (Ericsson ADR stock price was $70 in 2000 and now under $9 while Nokia ADR was at $48 in 2000 and now under $4). Due to Hua Wei's price dumping actions supported by Chinese government unlimited interest free financing, Hua Wei has stolen a March on them, not to mention stealing industrial secrets. European nations are split, none can stand up against China on their own as they are not strong or big enough, and they have too many internecine squabbles to stand together, and China has exploited this rift to perfection. Not just in telecommunications but in so many walks of economy. The biggest danger is in automobile segment. Germany is hugely dependent on automobiles for its economy and if China is able to inflict the kind of damage in autos as it did in telecom, it will be terrible for German economy and we all know how important is Germany to Europe.

In short, there are hundreds if not thousands of examples of what a rogue and insidious state Chinese regime has been. Support it if you will, but Corona is forcing many to finally confront the truth which they should have done a while ago.

As for the virus investigation, if it was easy enough to trace it all the way back w / o any help from China, western scientists would have done that already. When every nation is saying that China is blocking an investigation, you can take it that China is indeed blocking a real investigation. I will let you put a benign spin on why they are doing it or that they don't really have much to hide even though they are the ones hiding whatever they are hiding.

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2454350]As for the virus investigation, if it was easy enough to trace it all the way back w / o any help from China, western scientists would have done that already. When every nation is saying that China is blocking an investigation, you can take it that China is indeed blocking a real investigation. I will let you put a benign spin on why they are doing it or that they don't really have much to hide even though they are the ones hiding whatever they are hiding.[/QUOTE]China is most likely hiding that there was some sort of accident at the lab. I posted a link from Dot Gov website, not some liberal rag. This link from the [B]Director of National Intelligence[/B] states that the scientific consensus believes the virus is not man made. There is consensus on climate change amongst the scientific community as well, yet some politicians continue to discredit climate change. This is a recurring theme. The tragedy is that science is partly what made the USA the most powerful nation on earth. Internet, space program, etc. Here is a opinion piece from American astrophysicist:

[QUOTE]"If you're serious about making America great again -- and by "again," I mean greater than it's ever been, and greater than any country in the world is by any metric -- this is what it'll take. Science is how we became great in the first place. It's only by doing more and better science, and by listening to the robust scientific conclusions, whatever they may say, that we'll have the greatest version of America possible. But we have to be willing to invest, and we have to be willing to accept and listen to truths that may range from uncomfortable to disconcerting to outrageous. The choice is ours: invest in science and improve, or don't. We've borne the consequences of stagnation from under-investing for many decades now. If we're serious about making our country (and our world) as great as we possibly can, it's time to band together, to invest in our future, and -- if we really want to go the whole way -- to start thinking like scientists whenever we can."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2016/09/27/science-is-what-made-america-great
[/QUOTE]"Scientists Reach 100% Consensus on Anthropogenic Global Warming": [URL]https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0270467619886266[/URL].

[QUOTE=MrHo;2452239]China as capacity of country beat Japan, they are ranked second now in the world due to their quantity and Japan is guilty for that as we are one of the main nation who gave them technology.

However, it is not all black and white, Japan unlike most nations, we have so much actual cash cows, I won't name all companies, but whether it is sony, panasonic, toshiba, mitsubishi ufj bank, mitsui sumitomo bank or uniqlo or omron or cannon and so on lists are endless as I hope you least know, these are all Japanese companies and most of our companies are all in top 10 or top 5 in the world in all sectors of different industries, where as China only has few of that at the moment and mostly are still factories, as they are called the factories of world and hey usa trying to pull out, Japan is trying to pull out and hopefully rest of world including France who made this failed virus laboratory in wuhan China too. It is just quantity power of China, look at that nation look their insane size and hey look at Japan, it is tiny island nation who got to top fast because we are organized, honest, disciplined, good refined sophisticated culture (this also France and Italy too) and most importantly intelligent. But size did beat Japan, but like in most things in life it is matter of time, I hope for world. China is not safe due to their communist government, people are OK, but tend to cheat a lot, so let see if that culture change, they are opposite of how japanese people are, we are honest being who focus on quality that got us to top.[/QUOTE]Salaam Ho-san.

My respect for China and Japan has nothing to do with economics or even public health, but rather the secrets that they hold. Civilizations this ancient must know things that Western countries never picked up.

Consider the great importance the Chinese have attached to filial piety. One ancient master compiled a book of 24 stories with examples of sons and daughters honoring their parents in extreme ways. [URL]https://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Fac/Adler/Reln270/24-filial1.htm[/URL].

It is recounted that a Chinese man once visited Japan, and proudly showed his host this book, saying, "What can you show me that can compare to this exceptional devotion? In Japan do you have 24 cases of such filial piety?" The Japanese replied that they had no need of such a book in his culture. It would be like writing a book to say that a stone ought to fall when it is dropped. The extraordinary thing would be to find 24 cases of the absence of filial piety.

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2454350]China's industrial and governmental espionage goes much further than mere Hua Wei and I am sorry, this false equivalence between Cisco and Hua Wei or what China does to what US does is generally not accepted by anyone in the West. Hua Wei is guilty of much more than espionage. It killed much of European tech industry in the telecommunications hardware segment. There used to be dozens of companies in Europe healthy and prosperous and providing good jobs in Europe and now you have just Nokia and Ericsson both very much weakened (Ericsson ADR stock price was $70 in 2000 and now under $9 while Nokia ADR was at $48 in 2000 and now under $4). Due to Hua Wei's price dumping actions supported by Chinese government unlimited interest free financing, Hua Wei has stolen a March on them, not to mention stealing industrial secrets. European nations are split, none can stand up against China on their own as they are not strong or big enough, and they have too many internecine squabbles to stand together, and China has exploited this rift to perfection. Not just in telecommunications but in so many walks of economy. The biggest danger is in automobile segment. Germany is hugely dependent on automobiles for its economy and if China is able to inflict the kind of damage in autos as it did in telecom, it will be terrible for German economy and we all know how important is Germany to Europe..[/QUOTE]Killing European companies when Huawei or Samsung are not same quality than what was Nokia, when I had Nokia mobiles from 1995 to 2019 and I regret their quality. China and most of Asia are just for cheap, not for quality. If you drive Audi because I think best quality now after Porsche, out of Bugatti, Rolls, Bentley and Aston, then you will never buy Chinese or Korean car Kia or Hunday or SangYong, and I don't see in Japan when Nissan GTR is powered by legendary European Cosworth which powered beloved car for nearly 25 years of my life, legendary, my rodeo girl, RS500 . Western Europe have to protect better our safety, health and our own level of quality, nobody else, not even US, can compete with. I think Germany is understanding Europe is their main market when some others are falling, even before virus, and we have to learn from this crisis to become stronger.

On other point, US are now more than 100 000 deaths and larger than France Texas is falling for petrol, meat markets with many unemployment. French journalists there showed us images of people threatening others, not having mask and coughing on others face, crazy Trump is making many crazy dangerous like for weapons, when they are far worst country and not finished there for virus, when really slow now in Europe. Of course, nobody know about real Chinese figures, to try to protect their economy already falling before virus, but not our standard of quality, but only cheap, like tests which were not reliable, to protect our health. Just dangerous.

- Xi knew about the corona virus at least 6 days before the announcement. Those 6 days were essential for the virus to spread into an epidemic.

- The reason for the holdout was the CCP meeting in March, and any SARS like epidemic would be considered a safety threat to the regime itself. Thus they chose to try and hide it. The memo for the conversation meeting where this was discussed can be found online, if you search for it. Ironically the CCP meeting in March were never held due to covid 19.

- There are absolutely no way to find out if the virus was made by human scientists at the Wuhan lab, unless you do thorough testing at the Wuhan lab in question. If you think otherwise, then you are massively underestimating gene science as of 2019.

- Huawei was not at the center of the Cisco (other US companies were also involved IIRC) scandal, but two other original equipment manufacturers in China who made some of the parts for Huawei. So even if Huawei themselves has, or had all the good intentions possible, due to their size and global intentions, their very own chinese industrial component network in which they rely heavily upon, might have different intention. With CCP funded bonus checks in mind, and lower risk of potential losses. Just take a trip to Shenzhen yourself, and you will find large parts of this industrial network situated in shopping mall sweatshops with teenage workers, earning terrible wages, working like crazy 12 hours a day. And if they as much as look up if you say Hi or talk to them, the manager comes over and yells at them. As was seen by yours truly some 8 years ago. This is hard to compete against for anyone under western labor laws.

[QUOTE=Beijing4987;2454202]Take a ride on the metro in Suzhou (population 6. 5 + million,2 million e scooters) or Shanghai. Hop on a fast train from Guangzhou (canton) to Beijing. My Suzhou supplier says that only the "grocery stores are busy making money. 60% of Alibaba (Tao Bao are knock-offs, poor quality" I bought a shop vac, French chocolate, japanese pill cutters, genuine corona and German beer that arrived one day later. Only the rural provinces and backwaters are a "developing country" Every country has an underground economy. The MS-13 gang members repatriated to their home countries are multinational now. Banksters launder their profits. Weapons bought by straw men and Eric Holder in the USA flow freely. The only no no for the Mossad is whacking a head of state. Not so for the CIA. Well, they make the "economy scream" in Chile and train the military at Fort Benning and bomb appropriate targets in Libya with help from Tony Blair. Trump will never run out of enemies or someone else to blame. The Chinese communist Party has a long term plan while POTUS is busy painting himself into a corner while his minions steal everything that isn't nailed down. Wet markets with wild animals are all over Asia.[/QUOTE]LOL, yeah the wet market blame is just laughable.

But going back to Libya and Blair is history. And handing Trump the idea of power in a western world being run by central banks and bildenbergs is a joke. What worries me is how the microphone known as Trump is being used to clamp down on social media also in the west. In essence making the USA as much into a fascist run part of the world as China is under CCP. But it is not Trump. It is the people behind Trump. Trump himself is indebted massively. If you want to know who holds the power, just follow the money. The same can be said for China and Russia. Xi however has a lot more power in China, but that is why he and the regime around him is so terrified of the world around them which 'may cause instability', that every single epidemic is being hushed at. And you cannot beat it. It is the almighty greenback. Backed by the almighty US army.

Always follow the money.

As a side point, being honest in China sends you to jail. Lying gives you a promotion. This is the climate one operates in when trying to fight the international world bodies under a fascist run state regime.

Just look at China's second in command and his very own track record at lying to his own people, and put this history lesson up against the corona outbreak:

[URL]https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2240830/amp/Chinas-new-leader-Henan-Li-led-hospital-cover-saw-300k-people-infected-HIV.html[/URL]

Cheers! Have a Corona Extra!

I suppose one good thing about Europe being so defragmented is that we won't get our egos up high enough to drive politics and the society in a facist direction. Something in which seems to be an historically appropriate turn of events in a buildup to a large war. Either cold or warm.

And when it comes to Japanese companies, sure Sony is big. But they were bigger I seem to recall. Panasonic too I believe, and their TV's are much worse than the Korean ones. Mitsubishi used to have OK cars. Now I don't see any, but they do have their bank I suppose. Canon? Are they still alive? I thought they died 15 years ago with the smartphone arrivals. Toshiba only has those sd memory cards left. The rest of the company is a balance sheet disaster. And Toyota? Well, they can automate production like none others. Still alive and well, but how well will they do in the years to come with EV cars? No one knows yet. Honda and Suzuki are both into this global merging thing that has been going on just to save face. The same can be said about French cars. All non competitive. Only Tesla and the German cars are competitive globally in my view. Everyone else aside from Toyota are copycats.

But it is not a Japanese only story. The same trend is seen in Europe and north America. Only the venture capital firms are still alive. Running from some tax heaven on a tropical island with 0 or near 0 taxes. Japan does have their Softbank, but I am sure that guy has some tax incentives too where he runs it from.

Seems Softbank is not Japanese. It is registered in Bermuda.

[URL]https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/04/18/business/corporate-business/softbank-failed-report-income-%C2%A593-9-billion-tax-haven-units-sources-say/[/URL]#. XtDcyGmxVzA.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2454429]China is most likely hiding that there was some sort of accident at the lab. I posted a link from Dot Gov website, not some liberal rag. This link from the [B]Director of National Intelligence[/B] states that the scientific consensus believes the virus is not man made. There is consensus on climate change amongst the scientific community as well, yet some politicians continue to discredit climate change. This is a recurring theme. The tragedy is that science is partly what made the USA the most powerful nation on earth. Internet, space program, etc. Here is a opinion piece from American astrophysicist:

"Scientists Reach 100% Consensus on Anthropogenic Global Warming": [URL]https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0270467619886266[/URL].[/QUOTE]I do not think it is appropriate to expand the topic of discussion to include some other topic to support a particular point of view. I do not think throwing in a second topic into the mix in anyway provides evidence to a particular side of the argument in the first topic. However, you are obviously welcome to bring in all these additional topics such as global warming into the mix.

As for the virus itself, saying something like "scientists believe" is not a particularly compelling evidence or conclusion. Virus origination is an issue which can be established with a good amount of accuracy as I understood. It is not something which scientists "need to believe" - if they are able to investigate, they can actually trace it all the way back. We are not able to do it because the country of origin has blocked all efforts in that direction. And I will also point out that this is a fast evolving situation. Our understanding of the virus, what works and what doesn't, what it is or not, are all evolving. Till a few days ago, children were thought to be fairly safe and then they found some symptoms along the lines of Kawasaki syndrome. CDC did not think masks were super helpful and then they changed their recommendation. To think that some consensus has already been established is just not credible. Who are the scientists included in this consensus poll? To take a snippet from a particular website and present it does not mean that argument has gained any great amount of credibility. The US government has several dozens of agencies and each with their own websites, and each site has thousands of pages. Not all of these pages are updated in real time and not all of them are consistent. If you want to "prove your pov" by posting a snippet from a particular page that says "scientists believe this is not man made", yes you will find a page I am sure. But I wonder how any consensus is already formed in less than a few months of virus outbreak, when these scientists were not able to conduct the sort of investigation that they normally do to come to such conclusions and consensus, and why is it necessary to believe anything as if it is an article of faith instead of doing a thorough investigation. I also wonder why it is that you are more eager to find faults and shortcomings in the acceptance of science in US society while it is the rogue regime in China that is blocking an investigation which is of enormous help and interest to all humanity. Regardless of what you think of science and it's acceptance in the US society, if you see the technology or healthcare industries, the market share of US companies and the wealth generated by US based companies in these sectors has continually increased over time.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2454552]I suppose one good thing about Europe being so defragmented is that we won't get our egos up high enough to drive politics and the society in a facist direction. Something in which seems to be an historically appropriate turn of events in a buildup to a large war. Either cold or warm.

And when it comes to Japanese companies, sure Sony is big. But they were bigger I seem to recall. Panasonic too I believe, and their TV's are much worse than the Korean ones. Mitsubishi used to have OK cars. Now I don't see any, but they do have their bank I suppose. Canon? Are they still alive? I thought they died 15 years ago with the smartphone arrivals. Toshiba only has those sd memory cards left. The rest of the company is a balance sheet disaster. And Toyota? Well, they can automate production like none others. Still alive and well, but how well will they do in the years to come with EV cars? No one knows yet. Honda and Suzuki are both into this global merging thing that has been going on just to save face. The same can be said about French cars. All non competitive. Only Tesla and the German cars are competitive globally in my view. Everyone else aside from Toyota are copycats.[/QUOTE]I wish Europe was stronger. Or more united. In this bipolar world, we increasingly need a stronger Europe. I find the work life balance they have achieved more attractive than what I find in the US with its never ending treadmill. But if anything, Europe has continuously lost ground since 2009 and the gap between US to Europe or China to Europe has gone against Europe in 12 years. If I could make my pay check in the US and spend it in Europe, that would be a most attractive life, that's what I want. I bet a lot of American men would take such a deal.

As for the companies you mentioned, here are some numbers: Sony had revenue of $84 be in fiscal 2011, now it is at $75 be. It is actually one of the stronger tech companies in Japan and has a market value of $80 be now but that is compared to Apple at $1,380 be as an example. Panasonic had sales of $99 be in fiscal 2012, now it is $69 B. Toshiba had sales of $75 be in fiscal 2012, now $32 be. Canon has revenues of $32 be now, vs $44 be in fiscal 2011 (Canon makes very good office products such as the main parts of printers that HP sells, strong in imaging systems, medical equipment, etc). Toyota is still strong, $200 be sales in 2010, $275 be now. Softbank is extremely indebted, Masa Son had the good fortune of investing in Alibaba early but his luck has run out now, too many mistakes of late.

Here are a couple of counter examples.

The second one has 3 authors of which 2 have Chinese sounding names.

The point of this: There is a lo of work being done as we speak. To claim that the origin of virus is already settled science, "there is broad scientific consensus it is not man made" is not accurate when researchers are saying work needs to be done to investigate the origins. The Flinders team is one of the leaders in a vaccine development in Australia, per media articles. I don't know how good are the second paper's authors. But how do we know their research is less valid? As I asked "who is included in this broad scientific consensus"? And who is excluded? How did scientific consensus rush to reach such broad based consensus so fast?

The study, led by Flinders University scientists, compared the modeling to the virus's ability to bind to human cells and found the SARS-CoV-2 virus targets humans more potently than any of the tested animal species.

"The results clearly show that the COVID-19 virus is exquisitely adapted to infect humans," says Flinders University Professor Nikolai Petrovsky, lead author of a new paper just published online in arXiv, a leading US preprint server for researchers.

"The virus's ability to bind protein on human cells was far greater than its ability to bind the same protein in bats, which argues against bats being a direct source of the human virus."

The team's computer modeling shows the SARS-CoV-2 virus also bound strongly to cells of pangolins, an exotic ant-eater illegally imported into China.

"While it has been suggested by some Chinese scientists that the COVID-19 virus might have been transmitted to humans from pangolins, currently available data does not support this idea," Professor Petrovsky says.

How and where the SARS-CoV-2 virus adapted to become such an effective human pathogen remains a mystery, the scientists conclude, adding that finding the origins of the disease will help efforts to protect people against future coronavirus pandemics.

The research points to a number of reasons why the virus became so well adapted to humans, such as convergent evolution after exposure to human cells, rare mutations that mix two species genes, and exposure to human cells very early in the pandemic.

But how and where the SARS-CoV-2 virus adapted to become such an effective human pathogen remains a mystery that requires intensive further scientific investigation, the researchers conclude.

[URL]https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-05-covid-mystery.html[/URL]

In a side-by-side comparison of evolutionary dynamics between the 2019/2020 SARS-CoV-2 and the 2003 SARS-CoV, we were surprised to find that SARS-CoV-2 resembles SARS-CoV in the late phase of the 2003 epidemic after SARS-CoV had developed several advantageous adaptations for human transmission. Our observations suggest that by the time SARS-CoV-2 was first detected in late 2019, it was already pre-adapted to human transmission to an extent similar to late epidemic SARS-CoV. However, no precursors or branches of evolution stemming from a less human-adapted SARS-CoV-2-like virus have been detected. The sudden appearance of a highly infectious SARS-CoV-2 presents a major cause for concern that should motivate stronger international efforts to identify the source and prevent near future re-emergence.

[URL]https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.073262v1[/URL]

Climate change:

There is no denying that humans have had a hand in climate change, but the question is if this was planned or not. Or just a result of water shortages around the world:

[URL]https://www.etcgroup.org/content/chinas-plan-engineer-himalayan-clouds-geoengineering-unintentional-or-otherwise[/URL]

We know that lower clouds cools down the temperature, and that higher up clouds warms the temperature. This is undisputed. So guess what happens when we drain all the water away from the lower cloud layers.

The administrator determines what is allowed. A poster on the Thai forum was allowed a special thread: "stupid shit" for his boasting. But it migrates to other threads. Nobody knows the difference any more. Administration does. Steve Stills wrote in his song For what it's worth: "Step out of line, the man, the man he comes and takes you away".

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2454568]As for the virus itself, saying something like "scientists believe" is not a particularly compelling evidence or conclusion. Virus origination is an issue which can be established with a good amount of accuracy as I understood. It is not something which scientists "need to believe" - if they are able to investigate, they can actually trace it all the way back. We are not able to do it because the country of origin has blocked all efforts in that direction. And I will also point out that this is a fast evolving situation. Our understanding of the virus, what works and what doesn't, what it is or not, are all evolving. Till a few days ago, children were thought to be fairly safe and then they found some symptoms along the lines of Kawasaki syndrome. CDC did not think masks were super helpful and then they changed their recommendation.[/QUOTE]My understanding is the CDC asked the public not to buy N95 masks, because they were in limited supply and needed to be prioritized for medical workers who were most at risk. If science truly believed masks provided zero defense to airborne viruses, then medical workers would not have worn them either. The CDC flip-flopped on the idea of the general public wearing cloth masks. There was never a consensus reached on that subject. In fact, there is still an open debate on the efficacy of cloth masks, especially if people do not wear them properly or care for them. So the CDC might flip-flop on this again in another three months. Even if scientific consensus is reached, politicians can still override scientific recommendations if it does not adhere to their political, moral, religious viewpoints, or economic interests.

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2454568]I also wonder why it is that you are more eager to find faults and shortcomings in the acceptance of science in US society while it is the rogue regime in China that is blocking an investigation which is of enormous help and interest to all humanity. Regardless of what you think of science and it's acceptance in the US society, if you see the technology or healthcare industries, the market share of US companies and the wealth generated by US based companies in these sectors has continually increased over time.[/QUOTE]I never questioned America's scientific prowess. Quite the contrary, I said that science was what made America great and hopefully science continues to make America great. The sheer number of American Nobel Prize winners in science validates this. The world's best universities are in the USA. The world's best minds continue to immigrate to USA (over a third of Nobel Prize in science winners since 2000 are immigrants). I am starting to get the impression that you believe that I am anti-American, and I suspect your opinion is partly due to me saying that the virus was not man-made. You are free to believe this. But let me also say this. My opinion that the virus is not man-made is also shared by US Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman General Mark Milley, who has over 40 years of military service. Also my opinion could change, as new evidence is disclosed. Maybe I am just brainwashed. Maybe I am too deferential to experts.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2454552]I suppose one good thing about Europe being so defragmented is that we won't get our egos up high enough to drive politics and the society in a facist direction. Something in which seems to be an historically appropriate turn of events in a buildup to a large war. Either cold or warm.

And when it comes to Japanese companies, sure Sony is big. But they were bigger I seem to recall. Panasonic too I believe, and their TV's are much worse than the Korean ones. Mitsubishi used to have OK cars. Now I don't see any, but they do have their bank I suppose. Canon? Are they still alive? I thought they died 15 years ago with the smartphone arrivals. Toshiba only has those sd memory cards left. The rest of the company is a balance sheet disaster. And Toyota? Well, they can automate production like none others. Still alive and well, but how well will they do in the years to come with EV cars? No one knows yet. Honda and Suzuki are both into this global merging thing that has been going on just to save face. The same can be said about French cars. All non competitive. Only Tesla and the German cars are competitive globally in my view. Everyone else aside from Toyota are copycats.[/QUOTE]What about Bugatti quality made in France? When French Peugeot cars have usually the best balance: You take 308 with 150 power, you take V40, A3, A class, 118, Golf, You take also Megane, all with 150 power, cars around 30 000 €, you go to test on Nurburgring, winner will be 308 , no other will compete in curves, Megane should be in top 3. Megane RS is the fastest in this category in Nurburgring. Same You take 508, with A4, 318, see class, all with same power, and 508 will be ahead. Best balance, best efficiency for grip, no need for quattro, 4 matic, xdrive. German cars are famous but don t mean they are all high quality or better quality, just difference of culture when German cars are built for free speed autobahns, when You will be faster on french motorways than in Germany full of works with 80 or 60 speed limits. Tesla is just impressive joke for me, if I rent a Tesla in Germany, I m pretty sure I can t drive Dusseldorf Frankfurt free speed. To succeed, I will have to drive as fast as on bicycle. Hybrid with hydrogen seem much more interesting technique for me, when electric is just a lie, first you can drive only Hollywood Boulevard, not longer, and You just move the problem, no more pollution in Hollywood, but you make a lot of pollution to build battery in poor countries and what do you do with old battery? Just a big lie, nobody tell about. I will never buy any electric car killing poor people to make rich breathing better. Same like virus killing more poor than rich. Even electric cars start very fast, but after, they are heavy and you can't really drive, they are made for snails in Switzerland.

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2454602]
But how and where the SARS-CoV-2 virus adapted to become such an effective human pathogen remains a mystery that requires intensive further scientific investigation, the researchers conclude.

[URL]https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-05-covid-mystery.html[/URL]

In a side-by-side comparison of evolutionary dynamics between the 2019/2020 SARS-CoV-2 and the 2003 SARS-CoV, we were surprised to find that SARS-CoV-2 resembles SARS-CoV in the late phase of the 2003 epidemic after SARS-CoV had developed several advantageous adaptations for human transmission. Our observations suggest that by the time SARS-CoV-2 was first detected in late 2019, it was already pre-adapted to human transmission to an extent similar to late epidemic SARS-CoV. However, no precursors or branches of evolution stemming from a less human-adapted SARS-CoV-2-like virus have been detected. The sudden appearance of a highly infectious SARS-CoV-2 presents a major cause for concern that should motivate stronger international efforts to identify the source and prevent near future re-emergence.

[URL]https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.073262v1[/URL][/QUOTE]Yes this is a rare evolutionary development and many things are not fully understood about it. But where does it say in any of those articles that it was man made?

Viruses do occasionally evolve in an unpredictable manner, the explanation isn't that complex, the more humans intrude into previously untouched natural realms, the higher the chance of something like this happening.

We are not sure how this happened, eating exotic animals or a study of bats, but this is far from unimaginable.

All the major diseases we have today, tuberculosis and so on, came from the agrarian revolution and were passed from animals to humans.

So these articles do not contradict the scientific "consensus". Also we don't need to get to the exact source to understand a lot about the virus, there are numerous viral samples whose RNA can be sequenced as McAdonis pointed out.

If this is a biological weapon it is a very ineffective one with a shockingly low mortality rate.

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2454602]The point of this: There is a lo of work being done as we speak. To claim that the origin of virus is already settled science, "there is broad scientific consensus it is not man made" is not accurate when researchers are saying work needs to be done to investigate the origins.

"The virus's ability to bind protein on human cells was far greater than its ability to bind the same protein in bats, which argues against bats being a direct source of the human virus."

"While it has been suggested by some Chinese scientists that the COVID-19 virus might have been transmitted to humans from pangolins, currently available data does not support this idea," Professor Petrovsky says.

[URL]https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.073262v1[/URL][/QUOTE]As Delta Indigo noted, the papers you linked do not contradict the scientific consensus. The authors appear to make two assertions: (1) that bats are not the "direct source" and (2) the pangolin was not the intermediate host. This aligns with the scientific consensus of bats being the indirect source. When they write "origins", the focus of their investigation is the exact path the virus took from bats to humans and at what point this virus evolved to its current pathogenic state. Scientists are not sure whether this mutation occurred while inside an animal host or a human host.

Also your link comes from a pre-print server. Please go to their home page: [URL]https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/recent[/URL].

There you will find a disclaimer at the top of the page "bioRxiv is receiving many new papers on coronavirus SARS-CoV-2. A reminder: these are preliminary reports that have not been peer-reviewed. They should not be regarded as conclusive, guide clinical practice / health-related behavior, or be reported in news media as established information."

[QUOTE]"Further evidence arises from the analysis of the overall molecular structure of the virus. Here the SARS-CoV-2 backbone differs significantly from previous coronaviruses known to infect humans. Instead, the molecular structure more closely resembles viruses found in bats and pangolins. Had the virus been artificially created, the developers would have used a virus already known to infect humans and modified this in order to increase the infectivity or severity.
According to lead researcher, Dr. Kristian Andersen: By comparing the available genome sequence data for known coronavirus strains, we can firmly determine that SARS-CoV-2 originated through natural processes.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/tech-and-science/science/essential-science-coronavirus-was-not-genetically-engineered/article/569127#ixzz6NvBcSMN9

Research paper: http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/s41591-020-0820-9.[/QUOTE][QUOTE]This evidence for natural evolution was supported by data on SARS-CoV-2s backbone its overall molecular structure. If someone were seeking to engineer a new coronavirus as a pathogen, they would have constructed it from the backbone of a virus known to cause illness. But the scientists found that the SARS-CoV-2 backbone differed substantially from those of already known coronaviruses and mostly resembled related viruses found in bats and pangolins.

These two features of the virus, the mutations in the RBD portion of the spike protein and its distinct backbone, rules out genetic engineering as a potential origin for SARS-CoV-2 said co-author Kristian Andersen, PhD, an associate professor of immunology and microbiology at Scripps Research.

https://news.tulane.edu/pr/study-coronavirus-pandemic-sparked-nature-not-bioengineering[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Pistons;2454620]Climate change:

There is no denying that humans have had a hand in climate change, but the question is if this was planned or not. Or just a result of water shortages around the world:

[URL]https://www.etcgroup.org/content/chinas-plan-engineer-himalayan-clouds-geoengineering-unintentional-or-otherwise[/URL]

We know that lower clouds cools down the temperature, and that higher up clouds warms the temperature. This is undisputed. So guess what happens when we drain all the water away from the lower cloud layers.[/QUOTE]My intent was not to talk about the climate change. It was more about politicians dismissing science. There is supposedly 97 percent consensus among scientists on global warming. In early March when there were few cases in the USA, Neil DeGrasse Tyson considered the CV-19 response to be a social experiment. During the first 3 minutes of this video, he says "The experiment is will people listen to scientists": [URL]https://youtu.be/jB4FUHHMI24[/URL].

[URL]https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/497533-let-science-lead-we-need-more-leaders-with-science-backgrounds[/URL]

[URL]https://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/13/why-dont-ame