American Women

nofatso....I have lived in Mexico for more than two years now and have lived in the heart of Mexican society, away from the more Westernized Tourist areas. I have seen first hand woman upon woman have her dreams denied merely because of the fact that they had the "misfortune" to be born female. The toy stores here are filled with toys for boy, but only a few dolls for girls. Why? I was told that girls don't need to be playing, they need to help their mothers. Many fathers don't send their daughters to school because "they will only be mothers and wives anyway". Now, once these women are older, they have no education or leverage in their relationship. They have babies, cook dinner, and keep their mouths shut. Take the time to ask the average housewife here about her life, it will almost always start out "well, I wanted to be a .... when I was a girl." Then it will end, "but then I got married." Even when they are in the workplace, they make less than half of what a man would make. The playing field is getting more even now, but a "professional" woman such as a doctor or a lawyer is still treated with contempt and, if she is married, is still expected to be a domestic slave in the home. Beatings among ALL women are considered part of a normal married life. And if she goes to the police? She will most likely hear what a neighbor of mine heard when she got fed up with the abuse and went to the authorities. The officer basically replied to her charge of abuse by saying "...well, what did you do? You need to go home and work things out with your husband. Maybe he had a bad day and you did something to get him angry." Is this what you want? Is this your idea of utopia?

I don't know who you've talked with, but the VAST majority of the prostitutes that I've come in contact are in this line of business out of necessity. I would say about 98% are "pros" for reasons ranging from: they have children to support (a single mother here is regarded as a pariah, someone to be avoided. And even when they do find a "normal" job, they can't support their family on what a woman makes.) to: they have a drug habit to support. How many normal women without a dire need for cash (especially in very religious countries) would be willing to choose "prostitute" as a career choice? Even if they now live in nice houses and drive nice cars, does that make them somehow less victimized? If it makes you feel better to think that they are doing the job because they like it, then that's fine. It's a tough pill to swallow when we realize that we are, at the very least, participating in another person's downward spiral. I've accepted this and try to act accordingly.
...also, you said :

"2. Putting "looks" above everything else. I don't see the evidence. " and then a few lines later you mention a "UFC", as you say, as being somehow degraded. If looks were not put above all else, then why would she be considered degraded in your eyes? You proved my point. Are you somehow less of a man than your neighbor because he has the nicer car or bigger house?
If a man wants to judge a woman, why is it wrong when a woman judges a man? Is it wrong because now YOU are the one being judged? Judging purely on physical attributes is not how WINNERS are made, it's how RACE HORSES are mated. Why is an overweight or "ugly" woman "inferior"? Are you inferior if you don't have 10 million dollars in the bank? Listen, to some extent, we all judge on appearance, but this should not be the PRIMARY factor in deciding our future relationships. This may seem to be off-topic, but it has everything to do with why modern American women can be so difficult--they are merely being as superficial to us as we are to them. Of course, this is not right, but we shouldn't whine about our poor selves when we do the same thing to them all the time, just in different forms.

Sin...the last paragraph of your previous post just points out how much of a misanthrope you are. Why is it that you think I'm being controlled by my "mistress" if I don't agree with your bitter rhetoric? Maybe you've had bad dealings with women and now you've rationalized it as "all their fault". Well, I've had bad dealings with women as well, but am I bitter? No. You need to look inside and figure out why you are so full of rage. The courts, workplace, media, etc. didn't make women into an opressed gender, backward thinking men like you did. I know that there's no reasoning with people like you (you probably also adhere to various other conspiracy theories such as the tri-lateral comission, Roswell, etc) because there are some people who will ALWAYS blame their own short-comings on others. Whatever allows you to sleep better at night.

Listen guys, we are all in the same boat. American women ARE difficult, but bitterness and hatred are not what is needed. We need to be grown ups and accept responsibility for what we've done (or participated in).

miller2k, lemme break it down to you reeeeeeeal simple like. am i pissed at the doublespeak that american women engage in yet expect american men to crack like the code based on the navajo language in the second world war? yes. am i pissed at the stupid games they play (wasting a man's time and resources without so much as a single thought that they may be acting like the gold-digging leeches that give american women their well-deserved bad name) when all one is trying to do is to treat them with the respect that every human being deserves? yes. to go further on that note, i was taught by my folks to respect women. i actually do that, but a lot of american women do not deserve my respect, much less common courtesy. am i pissed that they [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140][CodeWord140][/url] and moan and wish for things that are not within the realm of possibility (finding and marrying a single fabio lookalike who is a billionaire and slavishly dotes on her)? yes. pal, we live in a country where it is the accepted norm for society to bash men without fear of reprisal or an angry, justifiable retort. this society on the other side of the coin will fall all over themselves to help women by attempting to bring down men, with you in the lead. if they didn't enjoy being so devious and rep001hing and bragging about it to their girlfriends as if it were some profession in which they take great pride, i would have no problem with american women. however, i live in the real world. i cry dry tears for american women. as for laying blame, i'm all for calling it like i see it. besides, where did you see me absolve myself of any blame? you didn't. you ass-u-me... spell it again pal and maybe you'll get the message, but since i live in the real world, that would be asking too much.

Boy, PAL...the 'REAL WORLD" you live in is bitter, angry, and hateful. My REAL WORLD is full of positive encounters with women who appreciate being treated nicely without being expected to roll over and have sex for the price of a movie ticket and a dinner. Of course, I've had my fair share of negative experiences as well, but I guess I'm better equiped to handle these things. You fall apart and blame the world for your own lack of charm,sensitivity,etc.

"I was taught by my folks to respect women."

...Wow! You're folks would be so proud of you now.

If women have taken advantage of you, then accept your own culpability. If you take a woman out to dinner, lavish her with gifts and/or attention, but she never wants to take your relationship past friendship. She is wrong for leading you on, but you are also wrong because you only showed her 'RESPECT' because you wanted something in return (sex, affection, whatever)

Pal, lemme break it down to you REEEEEEEAL simple like: You are the type of person who will never be satisfied because you are rotten from the inside. Why would any self-respecting woman want to be involved with a man so full of loathing?

Yes, many women are awful, but how will your moaning about poor, ol' victimized you help the situation? You're just trying to affirm your own sad state, to justify your own failures ("it's not me, it's them). To use your own words: "Am I pissed that they [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140][CodeWord140][/url] and moan and wish for things that are not within the realm of possibility?" Yes, you should be because you are the biggest pisser and moaner of them all.

Keep up with the self-pity and bitterness and I'll just be here hanging around and having a wonderful time...Happiness is the best revenge.

From: The Happiest Man Alive.

My response to the gentleman from mexico.

1. The LOOK thing. Statements about the "look" and my UFC illustrative, you are still writing from "impression" and "belief" and can't relate facts to support your points. If your contention is UFC is not politically correct, I grant you that and here on out, how about "alternatively looking lady with wide body shape (ALLWiBOS)"? :) OK, back to our dialects, your contention is men put look above everything thus they suffer from men/women relationship. I state to you that you are wrong because there is NO fact suporting your statement, your statement is pure hearsay. How to get the facts to substantiate this? Just look around you, your friends, your male relatives, male co-workers, go to a shopping mall, anywhere. Majority of men are dating or married to plain Jane or ALLWiBOS? Thus to say that men put look above all else is not supported by facts. NOW, if you say, most men WISH they have supermodel gf or wives. that I concur. However, here you are talking about WISH versus ACTUAL BEHAVIOR. Wish does not count, it's the behavior.
2. Sex workers are Demeaning and nobody wants to engage in that profession. My friend. First of all, I never stated that every sex workers are happy. Just like not every lawyer is happy, every physician is happy, every McDonald cashier is happy. The discussion began when you stated in your posting that women in third world are treated a little better than "livestock". I am contending your facts that this blanket statement must not be true because you are talking about ALL WOMEN IN THE ENTIRE THIRD WORLD. That's a huge generalization. Dialectically, this cannot be supported by facts and this is not logical. Now, since you brought up the "sad sex worker" scenario. You are right, all my amigas in Brasil wish to leave the profession and every time I ask them to leave the profession for other work they will tell me about the "necessity" story. The reality is, my friend, there are lots of jobs they can get that pay very little wages. However, they don't want to do it. You are too easy to be persuaded by their statement of "necessity". The truth is, there are lots of single mother who toil in low paying jobs and support their kids. So, THIS IS A VOLUNTARY CHOICE they made. Many of them are happy doing it since the money is great, life is easy and many love sex! Would they want to leave the profession if money is not an issue? Yes! Hey... I have a good career and I love my job, but if money is not an issue, you bet I will quit tomorrow and move down to Rio de Janeiro :)

My gentleman friend. I do respect you a lot. You seem to have the heart and the kindness. I like that. However, I suggest that you tend to view thing in black and white terms and put in too much wishful thinking w/o verifying that with facts of reality which is almost always in spectrum of greys.

mr sinjumaster. You stated the truth. Behold!!

Again, Mr. Miller2k twisted your statement to fit his gentle theory. What you are stating is a simple fact; if a guy takes a woman out for dinner, movie, whatever because he has romantic or sexual interest in her. It is just ethically correct for the woman to let the guy know in no uncertain terms on the second or even first date whether his interest will be reciprocated. Simple as that. What Mr. sinjumaster stated is a common phenonmenon that many women, even they have no romantic or sexual interest in the guy, they still string him along for freebies. I have had women sharing with me stories that they "like" the guy "as friends but I can't imagine sleeping with him or see him as a b/f". So, I said to these women, "wait a minute, you know the guys is interested in you romantically and sexually and you also know you are not interested in him. So why not tell him point blank?" The women's point is "well, may be we can develop something in the future but in the mean time, I like his company. May be he is just interested in me as a friend" I said, "yeah, if a guy wants bonding, he calls his buddies. Also, when is the last time you find some "friends" developed into a "laid" (fat....Oops I meant Wide Body chance). Furthermore, you like his company ONLY when you have no other dates and ONLY when you are so bored and even then, you are not giving him sex." So, sinjumaster. You spoke the truth.

nofatso, how is it that you can understand with crystal clarity what I was saying, but miller2k (He's had far too many Millers) twists what I said more than any pretzel could be twisted? He will ASS-U-ME (miller2k, you made an ASS out of U not ME) that from a couple of posts that he knows me in my entirety. But alas, I was hoping that after my initial anger (perhaps I responded too quickly, but American women are a button pusher) that he would be able to provide intelligent debate supported by the facts that you, nofatso, called his bluff on. In fact, I'm wasting my breath even further discussing this idiot who refuses to acknowledge that American women are guilty of the bs I charged them with and that you reinforced through your post. Keep up the good work nofatso.

Thanks sinjumaster. Me too, I am tired to continue with this discussion. Afterall, we are trying to offer "the light, the truth, the salvation" such that nobody got hurt by buying into all these little trickeries. I had a woman friend (we only slept together from time to time and not dating) who told me that women can be more dangerous than men since when men are "evil", they knew that. They knew they are doing "evil", as in cheating on a spouse, being a player etc. However, she said, when a woman is being evil, she does not know that. She is being so successful to internalize the entire "evil" act as good, honesty, nice. They said the best liar is those who truly believe, live the lie. Thus, we keep having these "good friends", "necessity" and most men buy this :)

Anyway, as I said, case close. Let's go back to hunting and "heaven on heart" issues. Have a good day!

just a couple of more things and then you can go about your bitter "realities" in peace.

Nofat...you are a reasonable person, but YOU are the one making broad generalizations. You assume (ASS-U-ME, as sin would say) that the generalizations you make are correct , (but mine aren't) solely because you WANT for them to be true. Listen, there is no way to proven ANYTHING beyond a shadow of a doubt so we go on what we see and experience. I've experienced a lot and I've formulated opinions based on those observations. If you put filters over your eyes, you will only see what you want to see.

Your example of men who are married to "normal"women is true. But are they married to these women because of true desire and appreciation...or is it because they've "settled for less" (as you say)? If it's the latter, then they will never be really happy. Their lack of happiness is due to the fact that they have been tricked into believing the commercials on TV and the ads in the magazines.

"women don't know when they're being evil?" C'mon, nofat...that is just borderline sociopathic. What will you say next: "Women are animals, 3/4 of a human being?" You're more intelligent than that.

Sin...no amount of "facts" could persuade you to stop "pissing and moaning". Opinions are just that...opinions. If you choose to dwell in your own dark heart, then have a ball.

What you've both failed to realize is that I've said in every one of my posts that women are guilty as well as the men. But you refuse to acknowledge that because you feel more comfortable putting ALL the blame on women. I would've gone on about how women are fucked-up as well, but that opinion was well represented already and I wanted to point out that we have responsibility in the matter as well. Over the last few days, you've proven all of my theories to be correct.

This is over if you wish because you don't want to hear the truth...the WHOLE TRUTH. I'm wasting my time trying to have a discussion with people who are only interested in dwelling in their own misery. I'll send you a box of Kleenex and a blow-up doll so you can be happy.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nofatso
ALL WOMEN IN THE ENTIRE THIRD WORLD. That's a huge generalization. Dialectically, this cannot be supported by facts and this is not logical.


I am surprised to see a discussion about woman in Third World in the forum of topic about american woman. Moreover Friends some people (in USA) do not know what is third world. The third world is called most of the Asia (leave some advanced countries like Japan) and Africa. For Americans who has born in America & Grown up in America it is impossible to understand the realities of third world. In most of the muslim countouries - woman can be thrown out of home with three time reciting Talak - Talak - Talak (Divorce Divorce Divorce), no court, no judge and compensation as agreed at the time of marriage. Some countouries determining sex before birth is banned legally becuase people will kill the duaghter before birth. The daughter are sold for a mere 2 USD or 5 USD. Mostly no education for girls & no good food. That is a real shame and the condition of woman - mostly in third world. So this generalised statement is actually a fact in Third world.

To miller2k, nofatso, sinanjumaster:

I just wanted to say I love this debate between all of you. I feel that you all have valid points. As far as some of you disagreeing with each other on certain points I think that's cool. Not everybody will see eye to eye on the issue of American women. I'm writing because I want to put my two cents in on this debate.

I was the guy that posted:
"The American woman is a monster created by the American man."
I forget if I worded it exactly like that but you get the point.

What I wanted to do is further explain what I meant by that. Some of you brought up the point of women using men in the dating arena, etc. That kind of goes with my statement above. In my opinion the American man has made American women this way by catering to their every whim. I once read an article talking about how in all of the wealthiest societies throughout history, the richer a society became the more it catered to it's women. And I would like to add the more spoiled they became too.

The best way for me to explain it is like this: In my mind, women are a lot like children. If you are raising a child that you let play and have fun but you set some ground rules on what you will accept as far as the child's behavior, then that child will more than likely grow up to love and respect you because you let them have fun but you also set some code of disclipline up for them to abide by.

On the other hand, let's say you have a child and you let them do what they want to do all the time. Anything they want, you give it to them. One day you come to find the child drinking rubbing alcohol and you try to stop him. The child is going to have a fit, because you won't let him drink the rubbing alcohol, even though you are trying to save the child. The child is so used to getting waht they want that they will get mad because you won't let him drink the rubbing alcohol, even though you are trying to protect him.

In this example what I'm trying to show is that in a way that is what has happened to women in this country. Our society has catered to women , mainly because of the feminist drive, as a way to apologize for all of these years of oppression. Now men just bend over and give women what ever they want. A monster has been created to the point that even when a man is trying to help or protect a woman, she doesn't want to hear it. She wants to do what she wants to do.

Basically what I'm saying is that American women have been socially conditioned to be this way. Just like the women of Brazil have been socially conditioned to be the way they are. In my dealings a lot of people think that I'm real hard on women. It makes me laugh because I feel that I'm normal and that a lot of men are too far the other way. They allow women to do a lot of the things that they do. I once told a friend, that was telling me some of his women problems, that I hold women up to the same moral code that I hold men to. He said he didn't agree with that because a woman can give you p-ssy, but a man can't. My reply was that was the main reason I did it.

What I'm trying to say is that when men cater to women just because they're women you create a selfish monster that will use you as a means to an end. And the ironic part is that women are so unhappy by this themselves. Because I travel I notice how it's a lot of unhappy women in America, especially some of these women who just use men. Notice how some of the gold-diggers, and real materialistic women act. Do you notice that you don't really see many happy gold-digger type women, even the ones that have succeeded in their goals? Psychologically there are many reasons for this which it would take forever for me explain.

The MAIN point that I'm trying to get at is that, there are some good women in America who see exactly what the men see, but they probably make up a very, very small percent of the general population. Unfortunately, I have to say that I have given up on American women. I presently live in this country for purely economic reasons: America holds exceptional opportunities for jobs and education. As far my as my life with women I only deal with girls in Brazil. I feel they match me better. I feel that it actually helps me stay focused on my job, career and college by knowing that there are some real normal women out there but they just happen to not live in this country.

Phil, my bad for not probing your mind and further questioning you to clarify your point. You hit the nail on the god-damn head with pinpoint accuracy in every point you made in this most recent post. I'm sure there are a FEW good American women out there, but they are as rare as the dodo bird, and I will NOT budge in my opinion on THAT. I gotta admit though that reading you elaborate further on your point was like reading the freshly inscribed stone tablets from Sinai! LOL Yes, I will concede 100% that in that respect, it is OUR fault for the social conditioning of American women today. What I was trying to communicate to miller2k (although I didn't do that very effectively since I posted once or twice before I thought it through) was that I follwed the rules of not acting like a neanderthal and metaphorically knocking a woman over the head, dragging her back to my cave and demanding sex. So many times in the past, I did as instructed by the parental units and acted the part of the gentleman but the spoiled behavior made that a moot point. That can be extremely frustrating, especially whe they (American women) will give you NO CLUE to help you out. Contrast that to when I have gone overseas numerous times not even looking for sex or even hinting at the promise of being a woman's "ticket outta here", and I would encounter women who were so classy that it made them seem that they were a totally different species from American women. So, now that I was able to better convey what I was trying to say, and admitting that I should have thought before I spoke, no hard feelings, miller2k.

phil

regarding your statement " that I hold women up to the same moral code that I hold men to". I understand your true meaning. However, be very careful. In this politically correct world, people of evil mind can hurt you with statements like that.

In fact, when it comes to dealing with ALLWiBOS (bear in mind that UFC is wrong and I plead guilty), you have to proceed with extreme caution. The MO is, smile, be exceedingly polite, speak in "value neutral language" and most importantly, create an impression that you are part of the feminist, liberal movement (doesn't hurt to tell everybody that you voted for Gore).

I had this personal experience which was truly awakening. I work in a major corporation. About a year ago, I had a secretary assigned to me who was truly a lousy performer. In addition to a poor performer, she came in late, called in sick all the time and I caught her sleeping on the job twice! So, I called HR seeking a replacement. HR told me that I have to be extremely careful when it comes to situation like this. The HR officer, who is a woman, provided detailed strategy as how I could get rid of her. Without going into details, the bottomline is, when I caught her sleeping on the job again, I quietly get another FEMALE colleague to personally verified the sleeping beauty, I documented the time and date and the duration of her sleep...... so every of her violation I get witness, not any witness but FEMALE witnesses. After about a monthy's wrangling, my secretary was finally fired but only after our company paid her one month's severance. Yes, I know, you will say this is amazing, I could have called her in and said, "You are a poor performer, we pay you well and you didn't do your job. You don't give a professional presentation. You come in with jeans and T shirt, hair messed up, cigarette stains on your fingers. By the way, god damn it, cut off that cheetohs and loose that 50lbs." No NO NO, can't say that. This is the world of political correctness, the world of "value neutral" where UFC is named ALLWiBOS or "NORMAL". So, you got to play the game.

Phil...you're dead right about almost everything you said, although I would disagree about the analogy with the child. This implies that women are somehow less wise or less savy than men. (I've found that to be almost the opposite). The real problem is that women often make unreasonable demands and the men, in their hurry to "close the deal" are too eager to give in. This is the reason we are left frustrated. Women have always had the upper hand when it comes to choosing who to be with...that's normal and reasonable. The problem is with us because we don't clearly state up front what we want. There are always the "lets just be friends" girls who will soak up all the attention and money, taking advantage of a man's feelings. But for every woman like that, there's a man who sits back and allows it to happen. Men need to be responsible for their own actions by stating up front, after the first date "I want a romantic relationship..how about you?" This is done in Mexico: The man has to "declare" his feelings for the woman and then he knows right off the bat what he's in for. My point all along was that women have their own reasons for acting the way they do and that we should just worry about ourselves and cleaning up our own acts instead of crying about the "evil" American woman.

Sin...No hard feelings. We are in the same boat. I was merely being the Devil's Advocate, trying to point out our own culpability in the matter.

Nofatso--I understand your frustration. I worked in corporate America awhile too. But what you need to remember is that those stupid details were put there for a reason (it's been blown out of proportion, though). There was a time when a woman was indeed told to lose a few pounds or lose her job...or to sleep with the boss if she wanted to keep working there. These are facts. These crazy PC laws are there to make sure that these attrocities never happen again. Sure, women take advantage of them all the time, but until we can think of a nice middle-ground, they could very well be necessary. There is some truth in the "PC" aspect, though. People SHOULD be judged by the content of their character not the color of their skin, the size of their ass, etc. Sure, things get out of hand sometimes. But once again, I'd rather play the PC system than go back to the days before woman's rights, civil rights, etc. The only "game" being played is the one of RESPECT.

So, I love a good fight, but I think that we're all pretty much on the same side on this issue....

"People SHOULD be judged by the content of their character not the color of their skin, the size of their ass, etc."

A friend of mine complained I am being harsh on overweight folks. He said, "Hey, you don't know, my genes did it to me. I can't change" I laughed and responded, "NO, your genes did not do it to you. Cheetohs did it to you, KFC did it to you, Super Big Meal did it to you, "Super Size" did it to you. Chulapa did it to you....."

We judge people by their content of character. Best benchmarking of character is by looking at the person's behavior. Weight is manifestation of years of behavior pattern. Reports from US Surgeon General and US Dept. of Health state that weight is a bahavior issue. Thus unlike skin, race, sexual orientation which is a born trait, weight is a behavior trait.

Now, why weight is a good reflection of one's character? Weight management involves only two issues. Diet and modest amount of exercise. Diet, keeping a good diet requires good pattern of healthy habits, good discipline of maintaining a balance diet. Exercise, modest amount of exercise, as in walking, light weight lifting, playing balls etc. requires some personal discipline, time management and motivation. If a person is overweight. This is a protracted results of laziness, undiscipline, gluttony. When people say, please look beyond the weight and see the person's heart. I say, "no need, his/her heart is already there in front of you. Just judge the behavior"

To put weight in the same category of race, gender, sexual orientation bias is mimimize the civil rights movement. Yeah. I bet MLK fought for our right to sit around, get fat and stuffing chalupa to get to the Jumbo Size Shape. :)

nofatso..who says that everyone has to adhere to YOUR idea of what's right and proper? What if someone decides that they don't WANT to eat fruits and vegetables or exercise (not that they are lazy, but they are exercising their freedom to be indviduals)? If someone doesn't want to be exactly how you want them to be, does that mean that they are lazy and worthless?...or does that mean that they are merely making a life choice? Of course, you're also free to make idiotic generalizations. (religion is also a personal choice rather than a biological..are Jews bad people just because you might be Christian..wait, don't answer that..I don't want to know). Being overweight is a behavioral problem with its roots in genetics. Similar to alcoholism, a person is pre-disposed to that certain behavior. Of course that doesn't mean that the person HAS TO over eat. Also, It's clear that a having a healthier diet and life style is better for you physically. You most likely will live a longer, healthier life if you are in better shape. But if a person chooses to live a certain way and it doesn't hurt you in any way, then why all the condemnation?

Prejudice against fat people is the last refuge of the racist. The only acceptable prejudice now is against fat people, but it's EXACTLY the same as other forms of prejudice. It's the judging of a group of people based solely on appearance. "Fat people are lazy because they don't exercise" is like saying "Black people are lazy criminals". It's making a broad generalization based entirely on appearance. You assume that a person who looks a certain way MUST act a certain way--That's so judgemental that it's ridiculous. Not wanting to lift weights has nothing to do with other types of work. I'm overweight myself and I routinely put in 16 hour days, working double of what the slimmer people did. Even now, when I should be relaxing in Mexico, I put in 12 hour days during the week and most weekends I'm travelling to smaller towns to volunteer with orphans. Sure I eat a lot, but I enjoy it. Sure, I have sex a lot, but I also enjoy that. I don't judge people solely on their appearance (people with glasses are NOT necessarily smarter, blondes are NOT necessarily less intelligent, etc). It's the sign of a small intellect to think that EVERYONE must have the exact same set of standards. I like the fact that others have different values. The world is a beautiful place BECAUSE we are so different...