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miller2k
You still FAILED to address the FACT that race is a born trait and fat is a result of a protracted behavior trait. Being "black" is born, genetic. Being "fat" ....you truly need years of entrenched behavior to get to that sorry level. So, your lumping fat with race is false. By the way, black people, provided they are not fat, are pretty and attractive, whereas most fat people (except a minority few) are ugly. Thus most SW (sex workers) are fit and trim and fat SW usually see their pricing drop by more than half. Market pricing rules!!
As to your reference that "hey, I have a right to do what I want and I want to be fat.... so what?" Just like what if I choose to be messy, to be lazy, to go on welfare and become a burden of the society, to do drugs, to get heart attack, to get diebetis. Yes, so what? As I libertarian, I would say that's none of my biz and it won't borther me a bit (except my tax $ is wasted on these people...but there are lots of injustice around so I am not going to worry about this). However, if you say as an employer, is it right to judge a person who is fat/overweight knowing that he/she has all the bad behavior traits? You bet. I am paying $ to hire a person and I want to know that this person has a high level of expectation of performance. This is NOT discrmination but have discrminating standards.
The Fat community has been trying to lump their cause with the gay/race issue. It's not sticking because everybody knows that being fat is unhealthy, unethical just like nobody wants to be perceived as lazy, gluttony. Thus weight reduction is a $3billion business here in the U.S.
Now, it is alright for you to continue to claim being discriminated while at the same time keep sitting around with a sedate lifestyle and stuffing fat into your system. That's your life choice. Just that you will continue to fight this so called "discrimination" of yours for the rest of your life and even many fat people do not buy your cause.
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once again, in the tradition of so many bigots, you refuse to see the forest for the trees. You make broad, sweeping generalizations based on appearance. I'm not seeking any special treatment, nor would I accept any, but to be perceived as "inferior" or less than valuable as a person, is just wrong...and unconstitutional. Maybe the health/fitness industry is so big because of the way insecure tyrant wannabe's like you want everyone with a few extra pounds to feel like they are committing the greatest sin of all time. Hatred is hatred, bigotry is bigotry..show me someone who hates and judges a group of people for no reason other than appearence and I'll show you someone who hates MANY groups of people. And why is being fat unethical? That's just plain silly. Ethics has to do with what's in your heart and soul, not with what's around your belly. The REAL issue around here is WHY exactly are you so full of rage against a particular group of people? I don't neccesarily care, but you should. It's not healthy to carry around all the rage. If some day I get REALLY overweight and die of a heart attack, why does that affect you? I have my own money that I WORKED for and I can support myself...why do you even care? You're a hateful person and hatred is a lot more dangerous than fat, but I wouldn't deny your right to live as you see fit.
Prejudice is Prejudice...Judging people solely by appearance is wrong. If I said "People who work out are dull, because they spend all their time in a gym"...that would be wrong, stupid, and ignorant. Why? Because I'm associating two behaviors that don't necessarily have anything to do with eachother.
And, by the way, to assume that I have a sedate lifestyle shows your ignorance. You don't know me, you've never seen me...what makes you SOOOOOOO intelligent? Do you believe that ALL must act and think the same as you? Wow...you must be perfect! I would compare my lifestyle to yours anyday and we can see just how "Sedate" my lifestyle is.
It's no wonder that you have problems with women...You must have a sad, sad life...
With regards to the whole race v.s Behavior debate. Forget about the other person...YOU are responsible for your OWN actions. What if you say "I won't hire Catholics (or any other group of people) because they are stupid."? Is that right? Are you judging an individual based on your OWN set of morals? Is it correct to assume that all people who look a certain way must act in a certain way? If you say "I won't hire that woman because she's fat," you're making a moral judgement based ENTIRELY on appearance. How is that different from saying that blacks are lazy, Polish people are stupid, gays are perverts, etc.? Forget about the person you are judging and how they became "different", you are ASSUMING that ALL people who look a certain way MUST have the same characteristics. That's the EXACT SAME thinking that forced blacks to the back of the bus. Stop hiding behind semantics and face your sad, pathetic bigotries. There is NO justification for bigots, racists, and small-minded fools....
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miller2k
:)
wow, you are really angry now. Interesting. Emotions and Labeling aside, I think you have just concurred with me that fat is a behavior trait. A trait developed over years and years of bad behavior. Now that we settled this fundamental point, the remaining two questions are "I want to be fat, so what?" and "fat people are being discriminated like the blacks and all other minorities...."
I want to be fat so what? Unbeknownst to you, we have settled this too. As I said, you can do whatever you like and that's none of my business.
Fat people are discriminated like the blacks. NOoooo. Again, you tried to lump yourself with the "I am black too" to achieve the coat tail effect. Problem is, the rest of the society doesn't buy this since we already accepted fat is a behavior trait. Even the fat community does not buy this line. They know fat is a choice whereas being black is a born trait. You are certainly free to make the choice but like any choice you make in life, the rest of the society will hold you accountable to the choice you made.
Last time I checked, there was DWB (driving while black) but we don't have DWF (not divorce white females :).
Now, as to your labeling of "hate" "bigots". This is so typical of left wing ideology that every time when we hold people accountable to their behavior they call it "bigot" "hate". What they want is value neutral so that the rest of society has to adjust to them, to make provision for them, to accommodate them, special treatment. So, some fatso is suing the airlines that the seats are too small and that the airlines could not grant him two seats for the price of one. So, my company's health insurance premium is up because a couple of fatso got heart bypass surgery and since the fatso is in a group plan, MY health insurance goes up. That's OK with me. I don't mind to help out a fellow co-worker for the bad choice he made in his life but to lump fat as a civil right issue? Not sticking my friend.
Now, you can keep getting emotional but you can't deny the facts. :)
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Let me note that fat is *usually* based *mostly* on behavior. There are exceptions however ... I will note two.
1) My mother. If she eats 1500 calories a day, she just breaks even (she is approximately 5'5" and 220 lbs).
2) There was a special on TV (I think it was on "Aqui y Ahora" on Univision) about a man who ran and biked marathons, and yet who would still be considered about 100 lbs over weight.
My point isn't that behavior doesn't effect weight, but rather, that weight is not *totally* dictated by behavior.
For that matter, even if it is, who are we to criticize their behavior. Sure I might not be attracted to a heavier woman, but I don't have the right to say she's lazy ... I just don't know.
Smiles,
David
P.S. Miller2k, I'm with you all the way.
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David.
The attached link from US Surgeon General report provides a glance of fat in America with major causes identified as BEHAVIOR patterns.
http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/topics/obesity/calltoaction/fact_glance.htm
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"the rest of the society doesn't buy this since we already accepted fat is a behavior trait."
...Whoah, Einstein, who is "we"? When did you overthrow the United Nations and become dictator of the world? Does the "we" refer to your own little group of pseudo-Aryans? Or does the "we" refer to the voices in your head?
Whatever the case, sure as hell I'm emotional because you're making a blanket statement about EVERYBODY who is overweight. You don't even know me. How would you feel if I said that all prejudiced people were gay...would you feel that I'm making an unfair generalization about you?
I'm NOT left wing...so there's another one of your generalizations that can be discounted. I don't agree that airlines should be forced to sell two seats for one or make larger seats to accomodate people. That's silly. I want EQUAL treatment for ALL people. That means that it's not right to give fat people (or any other group of people, although white males have received special treatment for centuries) preferred treatment, but it's also not right that a person can be denied the right to support his or her family just because some moron thinks that they're a little on the chunky side. Where the hell did you learn your morals? Is it okay to deny someone the opportunity to make a living just because they don't adhere to how you think all people should be?
The whole concept of "civil rights" is that you are judged on your abilities not on your apperance.
"Now, you can keep getting emotional but you can't deny the facts. "
...Facts? Now when exactly did you provide any facts? Your case is as follows: "In my OPINION, ALL fat people are lazy. I THINK that they have sedate lifestyles. I FEEL that they want special treatment, etc" These are all opinions. Do you know ALL the fat people in the world? Half of them? One third? One percent? One millionth of one percent? Unless you have first hand knowledge of what you are talking about, being so eager to discriminate is insane. The desire to hop on an exer-cycle does not transfer over to the desire to work. I know people who are in top shape who are lazy as hell. Just because YOU are closed-minded and bitter, that doesn't mean that you can't do your job very well. I'm sure you do a good job at work. So, one particular defect doesn't necessarily transfer to other aspects of life. And, yes, I do consider it a defect. But does that mean that an extra Twinkie now and then proves that I'm lazy?
I know that I will never convince you because bigotry in all forms is basically irrational. So, I'm wasting my time with you. I don't care how many links you provide, I KNOW that it's an unhealthy lifestyle...so is being a Pro Football player or a fighter jet pilot...but these are all choices. Maybe you don't agree with them, but who the hell are you? Who the hell are you to decide who can and can't be allowed to make a living? I think that you have some deeper issues to deal with and that all of these "facts" that you are providing are just a cover for a hatred you had all along. So, first you hate women, now fat people? who next? Let's hear the whole laundry list.
As for being lazy...people who make broad generalizations about a group of people are LAZY. You're LAZY because it's a lot easier to say that ALL of these people are this way or that way, instead of taking the time to judge every human being on the content of their character and the depth of their intellect...
To the rest of the board: I'll bet the you guys a nickel that he doesn't get this.
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miller2k
:) calm down. calm down. You are going to get heart attack to be that emotional. OK, read this website and you should feel a lot better. OK? Don't be upset and emotional. This is just a discussion. At the end of the day, you continue your way and the world moves on. Nothing is changed, why get upset about it?
http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/topics/obesity/calltoaction/fact_glance.htm
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can't we all just get along?
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nofatso,
I checked out the website you listed. However, I wasn't disagreeing with the Surgeon General.
I said "weight is not *totally* dictated by behavior. "
The Surgeon General said "For each individual, body weight is the result of a combination of genetic ... influences". (Genetic ones apparently ususually play a small role, but they do play a role, sometimes not so small).
Furthermore, I really like the presentation that website precisely because it *doesn't* evaluate fat people. It sticks to the facts, never once saying fat people are "unethical, lazy, or gluttonous". I agree that there are many very good reason that a person wouldn't want to be overweight, but I don't think we have a right to cast a generic evaluation of their morality.
David
P.S. Miller2k ... I do agree with you, but you do seem to be getting a bit emotional. While this isn't necessarily wrong, it is counterproductive, if you do want to convey your point.
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David
:) thank you for your comments. I appreciate whether you agree with me or not. My premise is this. This is a fact based discussion. At the end of the discussion, more facts will illuminate the truth. Flat earth theory may be appealing hundreds years ago but it is better for everyone to realize the facts. So, I thank you for your calm and gentlemanly demeanor.
OK, Back to the topic of concern. Are you telling me there is a 80/20 effect?
Irrespective of all the reports on fats/obeseity, you just graciously informed me that although 80% of fat is behavior induced but what REALLY caused FAT is the 20% (assuming there is a 20%) environmental factor? For that, I am appreciative but wait a second, let's assume 20% of this environmental factor causes fat. Let's also assume the air we breath, the water we drink, the "culture" we are in and let's also throw in the "the gene makes me do it" arguments. Let's say I accept all these and also I don't mind to disregard the fact that two generations ago, Americans were much leaner. However, having accepted all these assumptions and disregarding of historical facts, I still cannot explain why the Surgeon General's Call to Action (listed below) nothing but behavior modification strategies to lose weight. Now, you are a polite gentleman with a preference of facts. however you also seem to have a preference of minimize the effect of facts when it makes the heart better. I am just confused.
I thank you for offering your thoughts. :)
http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/topics/obesity/calltoaction/fact_whatcanyoudo.htm
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David..Thanks for being the voice of reason. Yes, I was upset. But for the same reason that a Jew would be upset at an anti-semite. It's frustrating to deal with someone who is so lazy as to judge an ENTIRE group of people based on little or no first hand knowledge. But you are right, hate never ends hate, ignorance never diminishes ignorance.
Nofatso...I would never deny your right to be a jack-ass. To the contrary, I defend your right to be however you like. Just as long as it doesn't interfere with my basic rights. That's where we differ...I would never judge you as a person until I get to know you and find out for myself. You are quick to lump ALL people who look a certain way in the same pile. At best, that's short-sighted. At worst, its deadly. Even, if being overweight was 100% behavior, does that mean that an overweight person should be denied the right to support his or her family? Does one negative behavioral trait automatically transfer to all other traits? Do ALL smokers cheat on their wives? Do ALL vegeterians preach to you? Are ALL choco-holics foul-tempered? C'mon, NOFATSO, you're smarter than that. All of the "facts" that you have provided are things that we already know. Ok, it's better for your health to be in shape. But does that mean that overweight people should be discriminated against? Should ALL smokers be judged as harshly? Are they all addicts who will always look for the quick-fix? Of course not.
The point of the analogy of smokers v.s overweight people is this: If there is no harsh judgement against smokers as compared to fat people, that's solely because the bad behavioral trait with fat people can be seen and the smokers' bad behavioral trait can't be seen (usually). So, this IS indeed a visually-induced prejudice. (and visually-induced prejudices are exactly the same whether it's due to sex, race, size, etc: It's about judging a person SOLELY based on appearance).If that's the case, then your prejudice is entirely based upon personal preference. Sure, you may not want to date a fat woman, but should that very fat woman be denied opportunities just because you don't like her appearance?
This is my last word on the matter (probably!). I will never convince you because, as I said ALL prejudices are basically irrational, so there's no hope.
To everyone else, thanks for indulging my diatribes. I'm not seeking any special favors and I don't want anyone to receive special favors...but I absolutely despise people who so desperately want to hold people down and diminish them for the horrible "sin" of being different...
I was angry for a while, but I'm back to being....
The Happiest Man Alive.
P.S. I have to get back to my "sedate" lifestlye. I never knew that being sedate was so much work, 12 hour days and two new businesses opening up. All this sedation is giving me an ulcer.... :)
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miller2k
Welcome back! I was nervous that you get too upset. As I stated, a fact based non emotional discussion illuminates the truth. So, a hearty welcome back!
First of all, let me say, I am not a "jack-ass", i am "nofatso" :)
Also, thank you for saying that I am "smarter than that" to indicate your goodwill (I presume whatever "that" is, must be super good) :)
Second, I appreciate the overall tone of your posting much better even though you still used lots of languages as "hate", "bigots", "discrmination" "prejudice". Feels like you are speaking in LOUD tone if not yelling. You continued to lump born trait with behavior trait. You continued to confuse proper "selection/screening/benchmarking" process as being "prejudice", "discrimination". Nonetheless, I applaud your goodwill and the overall improvement in tone which is more discussion oriented.
Thirdly, Discrimination as in one is unfavorably treated due to one's born trait, as in race, sexual orientation, ethnicity. This is different from laziness, sedate lifestyle and lack of motivation, which is a behavior trait. I cannot change my race but can change my behavior. A bahavior based selection criteria is not discriminition. Denying someone of a job because she is black is heaven and earth different from denying someone because she lacks motivation, as manifested from her body weight, which makes good business sense. Havings said that.......... ==>
there is NO EVIDENCE that overweight people are being "discriminated". The fact simply does not support the argument that weighty people are discriminated. Just look around you. In government, the corporate world, lots of alternatively weighted folks have senior high paying positions. From entertainment industry (Rosie, Limbaugh - all 300 pounders) to government (Armitage, Bennet, also close to 300#). So people are accorded with all the benefit of equal opportunity and weight does not seem to be a factor.
So, recap. I am nofatso, not jack-ass. Born trait vs. Behavior Trait. Discrimination of black is bad, selection based on behavioral trait good. No fact supporting weighty people were discriminated. Free choice is good. Holding one accountable to the choice s/he makes is not discrimination, it's accountability. All good. Flat earth theory no good. Fact based discussion good.
Glad that you are back to your happy self. Super good, keep it up. :)
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miller2k
You mentioned that you are troubled by ulcer. According to Center of Disease Control, 9 out of 10 ulcers are caused by a certain bacteria in your stomach. In such case, a doctor's antibiotic prescription will correct the symtom. The other 1 out of 10 ulcer would be caused by the placebo effect whereby the patient "felt" she has ulcer, this is probably caused by stress and other psycho neural issues. To that, doctor recommends stress reduction therapy (as in meditation, yoga, exercise) and counselling. I hope you feel better soon. :)
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[thinking that this has gone on too long and that SinanjuMaster will have to act the part of Moe to nofatso's and miller2k's Larry and Curly] Double eyepoke and/or loud slaps
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master
Not so fast now. I prefer to be Moe. Moe is always my main man. :)
