American Women

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lenin
[i]Here Suicide Rates are per 100,000 population and
come from the United Nations 1996
Demographic Yearbook published in 1998

Canada 13.4
U.S. 11.1

Brazil 3.5
DR 2.1
Guyana 1.7
Mexico 3.2
Panama 3.0
Paraguay 2.3
Philippines 1.3

In US and Canada men commite suicide in some age grups 8 times more then women It is even more striking if you think that all third world countries have huge problems which Canada and US do not have I think, it is clear that This System which repress our sexual needs commits the crime against its own people mostly the crime against men. [/i][/QUOTE]

Well, I waited a while for the very educated and erudite JZ to jump on this, BUT while I agree with 83% of what Lenin says (the 17% I don't agree with being related to being violent towards women), he conveniently leaves out the fact that the suicide rate in Russia is MUCH higher than either the USA's or Canada's. I am not one who believes whatever is posted on the internet, but one source (www.aneki.com/suicide.html) gives the rate for "Russia" as 37.4 per 100,000 and another (www.cely.com) gives the rate for the "USSR" as 16.8. This is consistent with what I learned in college. The strongest correlation is between suicide and alcoholism. Eastern Europe and the Anglo world (UK, US, Canada; not sure of the proper all-inclusive term) have the highest rates of both alcoholism and suicide. Makes some sense, I guess, if you've ever had a bad hangover. I have, but never one bad enough to make me kill myself. Well, maybe I have had a hangover so bad I wanted to kill myself but it rendered me so incompetent I couldn't get my shit together enough to actually DO it.

Of course, I mistrust the statistics, since suicide is a sin in Catholic countries and likely underreported, and some of the reported suicides in totalitarian countries are quite likely murders.

Missed the original post, DH, or I'd definitely had a reply, since quoting stats like that and then drawing grand conclusions is rather dicey, particularly if, like Lenin, you're being kind of arbitrary about what you present. Your point regarding classification of what is and isn't a suicide in various countries is a good one, and it's certainly something that's been argued a lot in the field, since you've got civil servants making classifications regarding deaths, and that shifts by religion, size and type of city, etc. But I think if you combine the suicide and the murder stats you start getting closer to truth, as collectively they end up showing trends one way or another. (I always think of the study that tied murder and suicide rates together, showing that when suicides went down, murders went up and vice versa -- moral, if you won't kill you, I will...)

The US also has the highest mortality rate from firearms, and there's a direct correlation between suicide rates and percentage of homes in a region where there are guns. (This despite the fact that there are other countries, such as Finland, which report a higher percentage of homes with guns, which probably says something about the types of guns involved.) We can play with stats a million ways, but I'll restrict myself to the same general ones Lenin quotes, as he rather conveniently overlooks a few others:

If you're going to denounce the US suicide rate using UN stats, then you should probably also denounce those of, let's see -- Estonia, Hungary, Finland, Denmark, Austria, Switzerland, France, Japan, Belgium, Singapore, Germany, Canada, Portugal, Norway, Australia, New Zealand, Croatia, Cuba, Lithuania, among others, all of whom report higher suicide rates per 100,000 than the US. Probably also ought to factor in homicides, too, which means another long list including Estonia again, Brazil, Mexico, Taiwan, Venezuala, the Bahamas, the Philippines, and a host of others who have higher homicide rates than the States.

And good ol' mama Russia, which is here being held up as some sort of paragon of male heaven by Lenin, has suicide and homicide rates that are basically 400% of those in the states. Sorry, but even if I agree that the US is completely screwed up, that's not exactly a comforting set of numbers for a system that works, either.

It's also worth noting that males outnumber females in suicide statistics by age group not just in the US, but in pretty much every country where I've been able to find rates. I'm not really sure what the point is here of quoting such stats, since it rather clearly points to factors other than the "system" or country involved, to something social, physiological, or perhaps weather related. That might well be a good set of things to discuss, but I don't think it can be completely laid on the oversized feet of American Women, in this case.

You have to exclude Russia and all East European countries from discussion because they are going through huge social changes. Just couple examples. What would happen with USA suicide rate if during a week the dollar would lose 80% of its value, similar to what happened with Russian ruble. Or what would happen if more than half population lost their jobs.
joe_zop, although I said that situation here with sex much worse than in Russia, I didn’t tell that Russia is the male heaven, indeed Russia also had long history of sexual repressions. I just tried to make accent on Latin Countries because they have biggest sexual freedom.

Brazil has big homicides rate bat I don’t think it include suicide part.
High homicides in Brazil due one of the biggest in the world difference between rich and poor. And it is amazing what in spite of such huge problems they have low suicide rate.

I have two Brazilian friends. They have Canadian passports and can live and work in North America but they hate it. They prefer live in Brazil, are hungered but have as many girlfriends as they want. I have seen them here and I have seen them in Brazil. Here they clearly were depressed. When I saw them in Brazil they were different people. They were happy and full of energy.

Dickhead, I agree that correlation between alcohol consumption and suicide rate exist. But I also believe that exist strong correlation between sexual repression and suicide rate.
It is just not exist many researches about it.

Here I found some interesting info:

FROM: http://fathersforlife.org/ussuic.htm

In the interval from 1979 to 1996 there were a total of 535,890 deaths in the U.S.A. that were diagnosed and reported to have been suicides. Of these suicide victims, 421,991 were boys and men, and 113,899 were girls and women.

The number of male suicide victims rose in virtually every
year during the eighteen-year 1979 - 1996 interval, whereas the number of female victims was generally on the decline in virtually every year.

The number of female suicide victims was considerably lower in 1996 than it was in 1979, in spite of a sizeable increase in the American population during that period. It declined from 6,950 to 5,905 annually.

The number of the male suicide victims rose during the same period from 20,256 to 24,998 annually.

In other words, more American boys and men died during and on account of the War of the Sexes than died in all military conflicts in which the USA were involved during the 20th century.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by joe_zop
[i] (I always think of the study that tied murder and suicide rates together, showing that when suicides went down, murders went up and vice versa -- moral, if you won't kill you, I will...)
[/i][/QUOTE]

No shit? I was unaware of that inverse relationship. It seems weird to me. It seems like the same conditions that would lead to rise in one would lead to a rise in the other. What is your take on that? It is off topic but who gives a shit.

BTW, I thought it was funny over there in Asia when the guy said he thought you were from the UK. Couldn't he tell by your spelling that you were not? You do have one peccadillo or anomaly of saying (well, writing) "I've" in places where most Americans would not use that contraction.

First I learned American English and spelling, then I lived in Ireland in grades 3-7 and had to learn that, then I had to unlearn it when I moved back to the US. And don't even get me started on the whole fork in the left hand fork in the right hand thing. Now I try to conform to the forking habits (ha ha) of wherever I am but it ain't easy.

Well, back to the subject of American women. There are some good ones but not enough and they are too much work. I now have my work situation set up so I will only need to live here 5 months out of the year, max (really just a shade more than 4 if I want to push it). I have begun selling off my possessions and and fixing up my house for sale. I don't think I am as bitter and paranoid as some of the posters in this section but truly the situation is better for men elsewhere. For me, the best fit is Latin America and as of June that is where I shall be. From August to December I will do my incarceration in the US and then I will take those good old Yankee dollars where they are more appreciated.

DH, I always thought that study was a strange one as well, and have never been entirely sure what to make of it -- whether it's tied to economics, social ills, whatever. Maybe it's just like precipitation, in that there's an average amount even if it comes down in different forms. Dunno.

As far as writing style, I think I'm going to start adding the letter "u" into various words just to keep people guessing :) That post was more of a comment about the perception of American writing than anything else, I guess. Hmm, the "I've" thing is interesting -- never thought much about it, as it's just part of how I was taught.

And congrats on arranging your life to work as you have -- most folks I know would give anything to be able to do the same.

Lenin, my point was that there are plenty of places with similar suicide scenarios to the US, whether or not they operate under the same political or social system, and pulling out suicide statistics and tossing them as if they have some specific meaning is tough to do. According to the World Health Organization, global suicide rates rose 49% for men and 33% for women from 1950-1995, so there's an overall trend regardless of where you happen to be, what your system is, etc. The rates for men by age are always pretty consistently higher no matter where you happen to be, (with the exception of rural areas in China, where female suicide is exceptionally high) and to me the curious thing is that rates are very high in island cultures, such as Cuba, Sri Lanka, and Japan.

If you want to really look at the stats, it appears that religion also plays a larger part than anything else, with very low rates in Islamic areas where it's considered a great sin, to extremely high rates for athiests and fairly high rates for buddhists. And the true change is actually this -- unlike in the past, when suicide was heavily skewed toward the elderly, most suicides are now by those under the age of 45, with the years from 36 to 45 being the high water mark for both sexes. The real disproportion is that there's still a lot of elderly suicide here in the US, and it's almost exclusively male -- which might well say something about lack of sexual ability as opposed to sexual frustration, but mostly about isolation, as the majority are those who have been divorced or widowed, and are depressed and isolated.

My objection is simply that you've pulled these stats out of context to say something about the US and Canada, and it's not necessarily something that can be supported specifically by the facts you present. And if you're trying to make a grand statement about relative happiness between the sexes, your US statistics should probably take into account the fact that though more men die from suicide, women actually make three times as many suicide attempts. (This stuff comes from the CDC, btw.) That 3 of 5 successful suicides are done with guns and men are more comfortable with firearms might also have something to do with things, but who knows? You are happy to throw out, as does the male-oriented site you cite, that female suicide rates have dropped, but actually the same thing is true for US men -- men's 2000's rate was 17.5 as opposed to 1990's 20.4, whereas women's rates were 4.1 in 2000 and 4.8 in 1990. That's virtually the same percentage drop -- men's is actually slightly higher. (These newer rates are from from suicidology.org.) Should we somehow conclude from this statistic that the American sexual system is improving? I hardly think so! You might think that there's some sort of correlation between sexual repression and suicide, but I hardly think you've properly supported or demonstrated that.

Your Brazillian example could be anyone, anywhere, really, so I don't know really what it actually proves. People often get depressed and frustrated in strange places and cultures -- in fact, it's one of the very common stages and states of the process (something I always had to watch for with foreign students when I was teaching, as it was the usual response after the newness and wonderfulness of the culture wore off, just before the process of comparing the new place unfavorably to the old kicked in, and before some kind of balanced perspective was hopefully achieved.) I spent time with an American in Thailand who was very depressed about how things worked, unlike when he was at home in his own environment, in Kenya with a friend from India who felt similarly displaced and depressed, etc. I just don't know that you can make a grand conclusion from this.

Again, my objection is not at all to your point of view -- I happen to agree completely with you that the US is very uptight in terms of sexual relationships compared to just about everywhere else, in terms of attitude, availability, ease, and comfort. I simply object to throwing out statistics without context to make a point, particularly when the whole picture of such stats doesn't necessarily support what you're saying.

Not trying at all to be contentious here -- it's just that use and misuse of studies and statistics and unwarranted conclusions made by researchers are a couple of my particular touchy points, and tend to propel me to close reading and further research.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by joe_zop
[ the "I've" thing is interesting -- never thought much about it, as it's just part of how I was taught."

From very far north US? Or of Scandinavian descent? Or one or both parents raised in the UK? I am a student of accents and regionalisms. You do the same thing with "I'd." DH

"According to the World Health Organization, global suicide rates rose 49% for men and 33% for women from 1950-1995"

That is a fifty percent greater increase among men than among women and since that trend, if continued, would be exponential, I think it supports what Lenin is saying, unfortunately. DH

"to me the curious thing is that rates are very high in island cultures, such as Cuba, Sri Lanka, and Japan."

Those are very different cultures. Do you think the juxtaposition is valid? Japan, of course, has cuturally ingrained suicide due to issues of "face"; Cuba is totalitarian so maybe my murder thesis applies. Sri Lanka? No clue! DH

"extremely high rates for athiests"

Can you give me a cite? Plus once they are dead who is to really say they are atheists? Maybe if you put the gun in your mouth and pull the trigger you regain religious faith before the bullet hits your brain? DH

"most suicides are now by those under the age of 45, with the years from 36 to 45 being the high water mark for both sexes."

Hormonal changes? Realization that you are who you are going to be? Reminds me of the Marianne Faithfull song about realizing you have found forever and will never ride through Paris in a sports car with the warm wind in your hair. Well, I will be 46 in a few months so I guess I will just have to die of natural causes or get stabbed to death in a Third World alley while chasing hookers. DH

"The real disproportion is that there's still a lot of elderly suicide here in the US, and it's almost exclusively male -- which might well say something about lack of sexual ability as opposed to sexual frustration, but mostly about isolation, as the majority are those who have been divorced or widowed, and are depressed and isolated."

Wouldn't lack of ability be fairly frustrating? And can't that problem be LICKED? DH

"though more men die from suicide, women actually make three times as many suicide attempts."

Indicating to me a large number of bullshit quasi-attempts to gain attention and manipulate feelings. I have seen this a few times. DH

[/i][/QUOTE]

Dickhead,

Good for you! I'm very impressed. You're well along in your escape from America and the women here. I'm still several years away due to events beyond my control. What country are you are you moving to if you don't mind my asking???

Yes, I agree with your statement that there are some good women here in America but just not enough of them. They're hard to find and almost all of them have been snapped up - for obvious reasons.

As I've said before, you're NO Dickhead. Again, my compliments.

Paddy, I have not decided on a permanent country, and may never decide. I am going to spend the (US) summer in first Mexico and then Argentina. After serving my next detention in the US, I am leaning towards more Argentina followed by Costa Rica when the antipodean winter hits. Maybe the other way around depending on circumstances. I won't have enough money to relocate more than twice a year, I don't think, although that depends on many factors, notably currency exchange rates. Argentina has the lowest cost of living of the three. Costa Rica has the best scenery. Mexico is most familiar to me and I always feel at home there, but unpotable water and the Napoleonic code are negatives.

Cuzco, Peru and Quito, Ecuador are other possibilities. I am working on a job in Quito that pays $1000 US per month (Ecuador has fully dollarized their economy for those who don't know, so no foreign exchange risk under that scenario) for spring of 2004, which is huge there, and although I find work annoying in general that could be a tie-breaker. I am underqualified for the job but I don't think they will get someone with all the qualifications they want for $1000 a month, plus most people would be too scared to go there anyway (it has to be a native English speaker and I think they are pretty firm on that).

Also let me state for the record that the warmongering shitheads running the country and the workaholic nature of the culture are as significant in my decision as is the nature of American women. If ANY of those three factors were not present I could probably stick it out. But of course I have no job security and if my US job blows up I will have to move back to the US full-time in two or three years. Conversely, if I can stick with the job for five or six more seasons I could leave for good, although I am not saying that is necessarily my preference. We shall see.

DH, I find your situation very interesting and will be looking forward to your posts in the future regarding your current status. Myself, personally, I think I'd wanna keep at least a TEMPORARY U.S. residence in order to make myself appreciate even MORE the things that are offerred offshore when I relocate to recharge my batteries. Remember, there is such thing as TOO MUCH of a good thing. I used to live in the Republic of Panama (Costa Rica's next door neighbor) and if it's all that everyone says, that cpuld be a target of mine and relearning Spanish. I also like what I've heard of Argentina what with some of the European-looking chicks. Keep me posted and I'll stock up on the beer and chips!

Yeah, I thought about keeping my house here but really I can't afford it and also I work 45 miles from where I live and I am getting sick of that, so I will just rent an apartment in that town while I am serving my sentence. Owning a house is sort of stupid for a single guy anyway. I'd rather stay mobile right now. I'll be back in Argentina in 17 more days so fuck all this shit anyway.

DH -- yup, far north, both parents from small towns there, neither from UK or so influenced. Not Scandinavian, more French-Canadian influence, as both families filtered through there to the US, but there is a nordic influence in the region. I suspect the contraction thing comes more from form drills from my strict Catholic school upbringing than from family influence.

As far as the increase in suicide rates, I don't think it at all supports Lenin's statements, since those focused on the US and Canada -- the point is that this is a global trend. A good statement perhaps about the stress and despair of today's world, but not necessarily about the North American value system. Agreed, though that it's quite alarming, but as you note with your earlier comment, part of it could also simply be about classification.

The citation on the athiest thing is http://www.med.uio.no/iasp/bertolote.pdf -- and in looking at it again I see that they're including China in the classification, which helps move things up a bit. They acknowledge that there's no way to take personal levels of religiosity into account. You might be right regarding religious conversion by bullet, but I'd count the state while the trigger was pulled as more significant than arrival. And I've no idea on the island thing -- it's simply something also noted in this study, and struck me because I find it rather baffling and intriguing. Could just be coincidence.

And while I agree that numbers of women attempt suicide for show and attention, a 3 to 1 ratio is still significant and doesn't completely explain that. I have a sister who attempted a number of times during a period of mental illness -- the bottom line is that if it had been my brother instead, he'd have succeeded first time. She was luckily simply incompentent in terms of planning or thinking during her bouts of severe depression as opposed to calling out. I've had a number of female friends off themselves, and one thing that's significant about the ones who succeeded is that none of us really had a clue it was coming -- they were just found dead. But none of them used guns, which tend to work -- it was all cutting, pills, or hangings, with the latter being most likely successful.

Are you looking to be teaching in Ecuador?

JZ: What I thought supported Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov's (aka Lenin) statements was the more rapid increase in male suicide vs. female suicide. There is a lot of suicide in my family history, all males. Shotguns were the weapon of choice; extremely messy and inconsiderate. Then I showed up to pick up a classmate for our junior prom and found him hanged in the shower. 15 years old, a top athlete, good student, wealthy family, etc. No explanation, no warning; just a note saying "I am sorry. Goodbye" pinned to his formal shirt. I couldn't get my own shit back together and quit school a few weeks later. It messed me up for years.

Also my best friend drowned in 1991 under questionable circumstances and I have always believed that to be suicide as well: an expert swimmer, a 0.04 blood alcohol level, no other drugs in his system, ridiculously far from shore, and severely depressed from the breakup of a long-term relationship (aka lack of pussy). It was in a lake and so no tides or whatever. I think it was his equivalent of "going out on the ice" as elderly Eskimos do. You have posted, and so I guess it is okay to say, that you have had issues or problems with depression. I feel that male suicide in the US could be reduced if, as Lenin states, we had better male communication and that is something I enjoy about the forum.

So over the past ten years or so I have been analyzing all of this and have come to the conclusion that PUSSY is the answer. I feel energized and happy when I have it and depressed and frustrated when I don't. Also, when I don't have access to good quality pussy I can manage my situation with marijuana and it really, really pisses me off that is illegal and therefore too expensive for me to afford on a regular basis. Plus the more marijuana I have, the more pussy I get. In the context of this section of the forum, I feel American women tend to ration and control the pussy to an absurd extent as opposed to women in other countries, so therefore I need to get the fuck out. This is in the best interests of all countries concerned since I am one mean, nasty, unproductive son of a ***** when I am not getting laid.

And yes, I am trying to get a teaching job in Ecuador at Universidad San Francisco de Quito. They offered me the job for sure if I wanted to start this fall (2003) and teach a full year but I had already committed to staying at my present job which has treated me well (not to be confused with PAYING me well).

To me, suicide is a coward's way out and a selfish act. I hope no one has a problem with me saying that but it has just affected my life so profoundly. Your family never really recovers. If anyone out there is considering it as a solution, just remember that you will never touch taste smell or screw any pussy ever again.

Now I have to go find some weed or get really drunk and forget about this whole suicide issue. Of course, it will be much easier to get drunk and that is legal so that is probably what I will do.

No disagreement from me on the general improvement in state of mind when getting laid regularly -- I just happen to think it also affects women, even if they are the ones who generally control things in that regard. (It's not as though women can't be contrary, is it? Or that we guys have a corner on self-destructive behavior, even though some of us are truly specialists!) I agree completely with you that improved male communication can only help. If I ever want to really get down (not that I need help, as you've correctly recalled that I'm a depressive -- just wired that way and it runs in the family) all I need to do is start counting up those I know, both sexes, who've done themselves in.

The so-called battle of the sexes has made things difficult for centuries, and while American women bring their particular unlovely flavor to the table, they're simply the latest in a long line of frustrating versions. The bottom line -- Lenin's criticisms notwithstanding -- is that none of us is going to easily change the societal structure we're dealing with, so either we're taking your approach and finding what we need/want elsewhere, we're looking to get lucky and find someone who doesn't play the game the way we bemoan, we're figuring out ways to ease the frustration via diversions or pay-for-play, or we're just being miserable b*tching SOBs.

Best of luck on the job front -- a couple of years of work in a different country and culture is a good enough reward and education in itself, let alone the positive pussy aspects. Screw the quiet desperation thing -- that leads too often to the tragic result we've been discussing. I think it's better to make noise and make changes.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dickhead
[i]So over the past ten years or so I have been analyzing all of this and have come to the conclusion that PUSSY is the answer. I feel energized and happy when I have it and depressed and frustrated when I don't.[/i][/QUOTE]

And I thought the answer was 42. Just kidding.

I agree with you and add my $.02 that is slightly tangential...

In the last two serious relationships I had, I noted that, during peak sexual times, when we would have sex more than once or twice a day, the relationship was much smoother. Things that, at other times, would cause arguments just blew over with laughter.

I really think that the act of sex temporarily alters our perceptions of our surroundings in a positive way. Not just the surface stuff, but down in the sub-conscious. It's like, for a couple hours afterwards, our mind is thinking, "Okay. I've got food, shelter and I did my bit to try furthering the human race. I can chill right now."

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lenin
[i]Darkdeid,

I am thinking absolutely same. I am interested in leaving this country too. Probably many guys here would do it. Only one problem is money.

I think we need the new topic:
How to make money or at least save money while going to or living in others countries. [/i][/QUOTE]

Well, if anyone wants to pay me to travel to exotic locales and bang hot chicks on camera for some website, I'm there.

purplengold123@yahoo.com :-)