Well, I knew that tongue was stuck firmly someplace... :)
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Well, I knew that tongue was stuck firmly someplace... :)
You did? Hmmm...it seems you might know me TOO well!!! LOL :) (Oh dear...you don't have a webcam, do you???? *gasp*)
Ok, I have a question...partly to get off this ridiculous child support and single mothers discussion, but mainly out of genuine curiosity.
Do you guys prefer a "girlie girl" or a tomboy? Those of you who know me already, will know that I am a "beer and pizza" kinda gal. Sure, I love to get dressed up in makeup and heels and shake my thang every now and then, and I really do enjoy being treated like a lady on occasion, but ultimately I would prefer to play pool, drive fast cars and hang out with the boys.
This attitude earns me heaps of respect, heaps of good mates and plenty of good times....but absolutely no sex!!! LOL So tell me....do you find the tomboy type sexy, or are they fun to be around but not attractive to you? Or do you avoid that sort of woman completely? I'm not talking about looks...I certainly don't look like a boy! But personality-wise...what's your preference?
Actually, I prefer a little of both. I wouldn't want a boring girl that just reads and not do what i like to do like play pool, drive fast cars, drink beer, party, and have a good time. I dated a few of these girls that are too girlie and don't like to party or have fun. Girlie girls are way too conservative and some are afraid to do new things. It is socially acceptable for women to wear men's clothing anyway so I wouldn't even mind being seen with a sexy girl in jeans. The adventurous aspect of the tomboy is what I like. But at the same time, I wouldn't want to be with a butch type lesbian because obviously I wouldn't get any.
As for the advantages/ disadvantages of both sexes, these are created by the laws of society- on what is laughed at as abnormal and what is acceptable in both genders. As you mentioned earlier, RN, women have a more flexible dress code. They can wear men's clothing to a great extent without being mocked at whereas if men dress in women's clothing they are looked at as gay or weird. Women can be more colorful in their dress even in a conservative enviroment of work. Men are forced to wear suits, ties, shirts, slacks and shoes, like myself. We have less flexibility in dress.
Men also have the difficult task of having to ask the woman out and facing rejection. Women take this for granted so much that they don't feel our pain of rejection. Some guys don't brush rejection off so easily and it damages them for life. The type of rejection women face on the hother hand is not being asked out at all. Sometimes the guy that gets rejected too much is afraid to ask out the girl that never gets asked out and this can be damaging to both parties. I think this aspect can be solved if both men and women asked each other out instead of just guys asking the girl out. This society created this one-sided aspect of courtship which both parties get hurt.
Traditionally, if you were married to a lazy bum who doesn't share the work, and married to a chauvinist pig, you do a lot of work that no one gives you credit for and that your chauvinist pig takes for granted. He would be so spoiled with food always being on the table that once you get injured or are away, he would have to cook for himself or buy a pizza. My mother also not only cooked but made sure the house was tidy. I respect all mothers for doing these chores and that is why I love my mother for doing things I used to take for granted. Now that I am on my own I have to do these chores myself. These chores take time out of my schedule and if I don't keep up with them, my apartment would be a mess and I would starve.
Not all men are chauvinist pigs that you mentioned previously. My father did the laundry and shared some of the chores that my mother did. Sometimes my father cooked when my mother had to get home late from work. My family was a duel income family and that is why my first six years of my life was spent being raised by my grandmother. This practice is done by most Asian families especially in Japan or Hong Kong where they also have 2 income families. Now my father is not the beer drinker after getting home from work and relax type, he is very diligent. My father even worked ALL the household chores while my mother was severly injured in a car accident. If he was a lazy chauvinist, he probably wouldn't do any chores and would force mom to work even when she was sick.
Now to be fair to the women even though men are heavily disadvantaged by social and legal aspects, women are biologically disadvantaged because they have to worry about pregnancy when having sex which makes it less enjoyable for them. Prudes in America shame women for having sex and call them sluts (I, on the other hand, don't have that opinion of women who have lots of sex but I would want to date women that love sex and not date a prude). Women have periods which make them nauseous. Women also have lower metabolism and have to work harder at staying in shape than men. Also women have to worry about beauty so they have to pluck all their body hairs and or shave. They spend hours making themsleves up also. Some men nowadays groom themselves the same way also. I spend hours in the gym and martial arts to stay slim, I pluck my hairs to make my washboard abs visible and not covered by sasqatch hairs, I shave, comb my hair and wear skin creams. I don't however, need to paint my nails or wear lipstick, although that would be weird. Women go thought htose extra steps which takes more time and work. I wouldn't want to go through the physical pains like pregnancy or periods, but then again, I hate the legal and social aspects of being a man like the aspects I mentioned previously. I also decided to remain single because marriage is a woman's turf. I could lose my shirt and pants to marriage.
I'd rather have a tomboy who cleans up real nice once in a while than a girlie girl who might break a nail at an inopportune time.
Dickhead
I hate long nails also. I'd rather women cut their nails especially if they insist on cooking dinner for me. Nails collect dirt and bacteria so I wouldn't want that in my food. In fact that is a minor criticsm of my mom when she cooks for me because she digs her nails into the food after she scratches her itches and then I have to eat it. All chefs in high class restaurants cut their nails for sanitary purposes. Also the buzzard nails look repulsive to me. They also break easily and I hate when they use that as an excuse to avoid work even non-physical labor.
joe_zop> I frankly don't see how you can justify things based on "what I see in life" -- a completely personal take on things -- and then say it has nothing to do with you personally,
C'mon, what I see in life is not nessessary in my own life, but of many people around.
> I posted a series of stats earlier about the problems these children have,
When I have time I'll take a look. But again, to balance things would you like to post stats about problems that adult men have ?
>While a basically traditional position on marriage laws may not be the right one ... a radical reworking of things based on sexual frustration, a few pieces of anecdote and some gut feelings isn't necessarily the right one either. Your approach is "well, it can't get any worse." Like hell it can't.
Let's try :)
RN >Ohhh puh-leeze. So now women don't have to work as hard as men either, Alex?? Let me ask you this...what do you do after a hard day's work,
I don't want to calculate who do what more. The moment of truth is that you, and others women WOULDN'T like to be a man. This accumulate all - homework, raising children, sex, money ... you weight it all in your mind and you DON'T want it. Your answer includes all what we can call quality of life, which consists of many components - not only money - and which you feel well inside your conscience and subconscience. So we have a clear result which sex has advantage. Why - is secondary question, it's because men lost their monopoly to earn and did get nothing in exchange, or it may be because men are just boring and stupid - does not matter. We have clear picture : which sex feel better. Who is strong and who is weak. Society should not help strong side to control weak side better by law. Law must help those with disadvantages, not with advantages.
Down with Marriage Law !
Joe, it would be interesting statistics about transsexuals that make surgical operations to change sex - how many of them move in each direction. Judging by movies, literature its nearly always men want to be a woman, not other way around.
Why do you think ? Would both sexes be equal, this statistics must be balanced too.
I agree. There are more men that change sex to being a woman than women turning to men. Most of these cases the man feels it is too hard to be a man so they opt for a sex change. A lot of these men are divorced and owe alimony. Sex change is one way of having a totally new identity and to disappear off the face of the earth to avoid alimony. The only way the law can find out is through hospital records of the sex change. Some of these ex-men move to Europe or Rio with their new identity. Some men do this sex change because they like women's fashion better and they want to wear these clothing and not get scoffed at by society so they also get the sex change. It may or may not have anything to do with homosexuality as most of us think. Sex change is usually done for several other reasons- identity change to avoid legal obligations or looser dress codes. It is rare to find a woman wanting to be a man these days because these days women have the upper hand. Back fifty years ago, it would have been the other way around if we had the technology. But with the rise of the feminist movement that started in the late 60s and early 70s, woman's power is becoming more than man's in America.
darkseid> There are more men that change sex to being a woman than women turning to men. Most of these cases the man feels it is too hard to be a man ... But with the rise of the feminist movement that started in the late 60s and early 70s, woman's power is becoming more than man's in America.
Sure. My words.
>Sex change is one way of having a totally new identity and to disappear off the face of the earth to avoid alimony.
:) That's f..cking funny idea !
>It may or may not have anything to do with homosexuality as most of us think.
I would say, it may. There must be at least some bi-sexuality to do this. But anyway, the trend is clear.
many times i thought to myself: "thanks god, i am not a chick".
i happen to think that whenever i have to [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord134][CodeWord134][/url] in a public place (a train station or rest area, for example) and i can do it standing.
rn: as far as your question (girlie girl vs tomboy).
i am attracted to women because they are sensual, elegant and feminine. this is something that goes beyond what they are wearing but it's more of an inner quality.
beer and pizza nowaday are a cross-gender thing, so i would not be judgemental on that.
ahh, that peeing point is something i missed for the biological disadvantages of being a woman. women have to sit down and pull their pants down to [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord134][CodeWord134][/url]. we can just unzip and point. i like being a man for the biological advantages of it.
stranger99> many times i thought to myself: "thanks god, i am not a chick". i happen to think that whenever i have to [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord134][CodeWord134][/url] in a public place ...
o yes ! let's go on, work, pay girls for sex and then [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140][CodeWord140][/url] off on the wall !
[QUOTE]Originally posted by alex
[i]Joe, it would be interesting statistics about transsexuals that make surgical operations to change sex - how many of them move in each direction. Judging by movies, literature its nearly always men want to be a woman, not other way around.
Why do you think ? Would both sexes be equal, this statistics must be balanced too. [/i][/QUOTE]
Well, let's see -- despite what folks might have heard, there's actually a fairly large contingent of the female-to-male oriented out there, and it's simple enough to track down sites which support them. From what I've read, the rate of those wishing for the surgery is about 3-1 male to female, though I don't know the actual percentage of those who actually go through with it. Why more men that women? Perhaps it's because the need to be penetrated as a woman is requires a vagina, whereas the need to penetrate as a man would simply requires a strap-on. And in my experience in dealing with the gay and transgendered community (and transsexuals are usually but not always gay -- the definition is someone who feels an aversion to their own sex and sexual parts) women who want to assume the male role feel able to do that without necessarily heading deeply into the literalness of the sexual parts, whereas men who want to assume the female role do tend to focus on issues of the body. To me, that's not all that surprising, given that men tend to be more visual and body-oriented about their sexual processes.
But perhaps the percentage difference can simply be explained by the fact that by and large most studies (and the numbers vary by study) are consistent in saying that there are generally half as many gay women as men.
As to why movies and literature tend to be more fascinated with men who get the big snip, I'd say it's because we're basically still a male-oriented society, most men have been kicked in the groin at one time or another and know how much it hurts, and we basically imagine castration as kind of the ultimate kick where it hurts. Most of the people on this board, at least to some extent, live and die by their dicks, so the concept of having them taken away is akin to the most terrifying creature coming out of the darkness in a horror film. So it simply fascinates, which makes for good literature and movies. With women, the equation is generally an addition, not a subtraction, so it's not as compelling.
But Alex, are you really saying that gender identity issues are somehow are related to marriage laws? That's really throwing out the kitchen sink here...
I repost my initial message, because it's deep down in the stack already.
Who can say, where else to put it - a place where it will find understanding ?
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WHAT MARRIAGE REALLY IS
1. Marriage is a legal form of prostitution.
2. How women got their power
3. Sex is Business.
4. What Can Be Done ?
5. Woman's Arguments
6. What's About Child Support ?
7. Deep to the roots
1. Marriage is a legal form of prostitution.
If we look into Marriage Law books we'll find something like "during the marriage it is normally the husband obligations to provide for his wife and children" ( "The Law And You" McGrow-Hill Company Of Canada Limited, 1970 ) or " each spouse is liable to the support of the other" ( Ontario Family Law Act ). This came to us from 19th century, when such law was justified, because women were not economically independent. Women then were mostly housekeepers, while their husbands earned the money. There were no such professions as woman-doctor, woman-lawyer, real estate agent, business consultant, secretary, teacher - whatever else. Not now. Now women have reached economic equality, they have equal opportunities to earn money, as men. So why is there law declaring financial responsibilities based on sexual relationship ? We don't have a law, claiming that "two people, that play tennis together are liable to support each other". But if they live together and have sex together, why they are ?
And then, when we say "each spouse is liable to the support of the other" let's not blind ourselves - it's virtually never happens that a woman support her husband. It's always men pay for women, not other way around. Women never want to marry a man that earn less, then they do ! They never want to marry an unemployed guy with unclear financial future. The whole system is a great mechanism to transfer money from men's bank accounts to women's bank accounts - nothing else.
The difference between marriage and prostitution is the same as between wholesale and retail trading. But while prostitution is considered to be a negative thing, and there is no law, supporting prostitution, why do we have Marriage Law ?
That's because we live in time of 'common level matriarchy'. Woman in 20th century have won power over man, and the law is made for their ultimate convenience, like in Middle Ages law helped barons to keep their privileges, but didn't care about peasants. But in a society of justice such law must not exist. It contradicts, for example, Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which states :
"Every individual is EQUAL before and under the law and has the RIGHT to the EQUAL PROTECTION and EQUAL BENEFIT of the law WITHOUT DISCRIMINATION and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, color, religion, SEX, age or mental or physical disability".
But Marriage Law DOES CREATE DISCRIMINATIVE PRACTICE ! It provides NOT EQUAL PROTECTION and BENEFITS with DISCRIMINATION of men, based on SEX. Such law must not be tolerated in our time and we should struggle for its cancellation.
2. How women got their power
Historically for many thousands of years men had advantage on women, based on very simple factor - bigger physical strength. Physical strength played crucial role at that time, and women were discriminated everywhere - in politics, economy, family. But now this advantage has disappeared, physical power doesn't give you much on today's job market. And also, unlike 200 years ago, you cannot abuse a woman physically, which is, certainly, good. But now, in this developed society it is women, who got infare advantage over man, based on another simple factor - biological demands for sex from men and women are not equal! There are simply less sexual willing women, then men. The difference is, may be, not so great - 15 or 20% . But lets imagine what would happen if there is 15% shortage of apartments to compare to all people, who want to rent. Nobody want to sleep on the street. So the price for an apartment will go up to possible maximum. That's what is called 'speculative, infare profits'.
That's exactly what happens now on 'sexual market'. I wouldn't discuss now biological causes of this inequality, what is important is the result. And the result is quite clear - the simplest proof is such thing as a price for a prostitute. It's something from 100 to 200 $ for 1/2 - 1 hour of sex. Many men must work hard from 1 to 3 days to earn this money. Why do they agree to pay this ? The answer is - market... And how much does it cost for a woman who want sex with man ? - Zero. The sexual price for a man in our society - zero.
This situation creates inequality between men and women, similar to relationship between business owner and his employee at a time of 20% unemployment. The owner can fire the worker, and there is a long line of others, who want to replace him. The worker also have his right to quit, but he will have a lot of trouble to find another job. And in sexual relationships we have exactly the same picture - women have their choice, men stay in the line. As a result women turned men into their servants. This situation humiliate men and corrupt women. And of course, women learned very well how to use it, to convert it into money. And to help them better - there is a special social institution for their service, supported by law - named Marriage.
3. Sex is Business.
Yes, we live in an epoch of matriarchy. It doesn't matter that women statistically earn less, then men, it's still matriarchy - women earn less because they don't need to earn money as desperate, as men. They don't need to pay money for sex, they receive it for sex. And it doesn't matter that there are less women, then men among presidents, premiers and CEO, - women simply don't need so much trouble to get what they want.
Sexual inequality is the cause of most of the troubles in our society. It creates the same barriers between men and women, as between rich and poor. It destroys normal relationship between a man and a woman, destroys normal sexual relationship, converts love into business and kills it. There are millions men suffering from solitude, from lack of normal sexual life, and nobody care how to help them.
This is the biggest problem in so called developed countries, more serious then even poverty and crime, because there are more people suffering from it, then from anything else. Crime, especially sex crime, depression, suicides probably by 80% directly and indirectly are results of this unfortunate conditions. In our time, when nobody dies from hunger, this - not anything else - is a MAIN SOCIAL PROBLEM, because NORMAL SEXUAL LIFE IS NOT LESS IMPORTANT, THEN NORMAL FOOD. And all democratic governments must care about this. But they don't. They care only about well being of one part of the population - women.
Yes, instead of helping weak part of contemporary society - men, the law helps those who have already advantage by their birth - women. We can not easily change demographic situation, but we can at least not to create laws, that make the situation worse ! How many millions men were caught in this trap - marriage ? How many millions dollars, earned by hard work were taken from them ? Men are not slaves, they are people. The need love, sex and understanding, but instead they get marriage law with all its consequences. How can our society treat them this way ?
If you were so unhappy to be robbed on the street, the robber will take your cash and probably will use your credit card, before you could report the robbery, but your total damage will be less then 1000$. If your marry a woman, she may born you a child, then divorce you, take your child and sue out your money, typically 200,000 or more. A woman, that want to get married is 200 more dangerous, then a street robber.
4. What Can Be Done ?
I don't believe it will be easy to change status quo by some kind of democratic procedure. No political party will take such position, because 50% of voters - women, and they will never vote for this party. And there are also some men - family law lawyers, for example, that make their fortunes on this shit, so they have already 51%. They have won. And the fact that suffering minority is nearly all the male population - doesn't bother them, no more that it bother prostitutes about their business.
We cannot easily destroy this despicable system, but what we can do is to start nationwide campaign against it. The first important thing is information - every men must know WHAT MARRIAGE REALLY IS. So if we can't change the law, we can change the public opinion. Every boy of 10 years old must know what he is going to meet, when he grow. So when his girlfriend will say "I want to get married", his proper answer will be : "Sorry, my love, I can't do it, until they will cancel present Marriage Law, because it does not defend me against financial abuse." Every boy, every man must know the real meaning of marriage, with its statistics and costs, this is no less important then information about danger of sexual transmitted diseases or unwanted pregnancy.
I ENCOURAGE EVERYONE, WHO CARE, TO DISTRIBUTE THIS DOCUMENT OVER INTERNET, TO SEND IT TO YOUR FRIENDS. Many people will agree with it and this will be the first step to change current situation. I would like to see movement "Men Against Marriage", that would struggle for men rights against oppression, like women struggled ( and won ) for their rights 100 years ago. The mere word "marriage" should be labeled as shameful, the same as prostitution, i.e. getting money for sex.
5. Woman's Arguments
Women say : "Yes, in marriage we receive money from our husbands, but this is compensation for our homework, which we do more, then men. And also we sacrifice our career, because we must stay at home and raise children. So men must pay for this." But let's ask a question : Why men don't sacrifice their career and stay at home to raise children ? And who makes women to do more homework ? Is it her husband, that makes his wife to work at home ? Does he shout on her : "Go to the kitchen immediately, make me dinner !" ? No. You can't force North American woman to do anything she doesn't want to do herself. She would rather divorce you, take your money and find her another husband, but she will never do what she doesn't like.
So if women statistically spend more time on homework, then men, that's because they need it more, then men. They like it more, then men, or, maybe, men dislike it more, the women. But why should men pay for it ? They don't hire their wives for cleaning or cooking. And when a woman doesn't work and stay at home to raise children - it's her own choice. Every husband would like to have second salary in the family rather then housewife, the family can hire a babysitter, but nobody can force a woman to quit her work. Today women do it only because they know that THEY HAVE LEGAL SUPPORT FROM LAW, that will help them to sue out men money. That must not be. Staying at home instead of work is women own choice and in case of divorce it must be their own responsibility.
6. What's About Child Support ?
Let's first ask a question - why courts in more then 90% of divorces give a child to his mother, and not to his father ? That's because there is a convention in our society : child is more close to his mother, then to his father. This is biologically true. But if so, if the child belongs to his mother more, then to his father, why would father and mother pay equally ? Father can not see his child much after divorce, their relationship are not as close, as when they live together. Why must he pay same amount of money, or more, then mother, who lives with her child ?
What if they, while married, buy a car together, then they separate, court gives the car to the husband, but also rules, that for 20 years both husband and wife must pay all car expenses equally - gas, repair, insurance... For compensation the wife have her right to come once a week to her former husband home and to drive this car for 2 hours, at a time when it is convenient for the husband. Absurd ? Sure. You got the car - you pay for it. The other side doesn't have this car any more - it should not pay.
I can imagine the women's howl when they read this. How dare I say this ?! The child's interests are sacred ! Do you know how difficult it is to be a single mother, to raise children ? Cool down. It's not only child's interests are sacred, interests of all people are sacred. It's difficult to be a single mother, sure, but it is also difficult to be a single man. A man after divorce looses his family, and his children, a woman keep her children with her. What is more difficult ? - who know... Would you like, dear ladies, to leave your children with their fathers, and also to pay child support for 20 - 25 years ? There are some single fathers around, but I've never heard about a woman, paying child support...
In a free, democratic society, with EQUAL RIGHTS FOR MEN AND WOMEN child support can be voluntary only. It doesn't mean that there will be not child support at all. There are many fathers, that love their kids and have connections with them even after divorce, so they will support their children without any enforcement from law. There are happy families, that wouldn't divorce at all, but such families doesn't need Family Law ! But we know other examples. It's not a big secret : there are many women who choose not to work, but to born children and use them as a guaranteed source of income on the expense of their unfortunate husbands. That's who need Family Law. That's who benefit from it. Do we need their children ? How can we create unequal, discriminating laws, that help such women to rob men ?
7. Deep to the roots
So how this odious laws can still exist? One answer is voting majority of women plus some man, that also gain from it. But that is only part of the answer. The fact is, that would marriage be forfeited, women simply will stop to bore children.
This is true - raising children costs a lot of money and women want guarantees, so governments didn't find anything else then to put this burden to men, even in cases of clear fraud.
To make things worth, they introduced so called Family Law Act, where among other things it is declared, that a man have full obligation for a child, born from him even if he has not been married with the child's mother and never wanted children with her at all ! That makes man a hostage of every woman, he slept with. She always can cheat him and get pregnant, if she wants, as for the man - the only way to him to stay out of trouble for sure, is to live without sex ... Nice solution, ye ? Note, that all decisions - to have or not to have a child, are up to the woman only. According to this law the man is responsible for something, about what he has absolutely no power. Nobody ask him, but he must pay, because he wanted sex. In what crazy country do we live ?
The next step should be to state something like : "Every man, who slept with a woman, must give her full access to his bank account and credit cards". Why not ? You don't want this ? - don't sleep with women.
Decline of population sure will be a problem, it will lead to economic depression first, then values of businesses and real estate will go down... But isn't the current price too high ? Should we turn all male population into slaves in desperate attempts to raise birthrate ?
Governments should look for other solutions, but not for what is going on now. And there are other solutions, first of them - immigration. It can not only solve the population problem, it can solve problem of disproportion of sexual demand and supply for men and women, by simply inviting more women, then men, until situation is balanced. Also prostitution can be eliminated... But women don't want this solution. They like it the way it is. I think now it's time for men to fight for their rights, for sexual equality.
Let's declare this - SEXUAL LIFE IS OUR PRIVATE LIFE, AND THERE MUST NOT BE LAW, THAT IN ANY WAY CONNECT OUR PRIVATE LIFE WITH MONEY. No lawyer must be able to put his nose into my bank account in connection with my sexual life. Any law, that do not comply with this requirements must be cancelled.
Let's delete Family Law Act. There will be less divorces in this world.
Let's delete all Family Law completely. There will be less lawyers, less children, but more love and happiness in our life.