American Women

Sin...if you give me the poke in the eye, then I will simply use the standard, hands up defense and split those fingers apart. If you continue the attack I'll give you the ol' belly-bump, into a mule kick move...Speaking of the stooges, you can tell a lot about a man by what stooge he likes best. Nofatso likes the abusive Moe, makes sense :)

Nofatso, I was just kidding about the ulcer. I was trying to illustrate the fact that I was feeling a lot of pressure due to the "sedate" lifestyle of almost 18 hour work days. By the way, I meditate every day. You should try it. It opens up the mind and would release your inner rage.

I'm so glad that my tone is to your liking since the Earth does indeed revolove around you and your personal preferences. With regards to your "facts"...you assume (ASS U ME) that ALL negative behavioral traits are related. What about my example of the smoker? Smoking is a bad behavioral trait yet there is no rush to judge smokers. There IS a rush to judge overweight people as "lazy, unmotivated, etc" Why? Both are negative traits, but only one is visible. What you fail to understand is YOUR responsibility in the whole matter. Sure the object of your judgement, if he/she is black had no choice in the matter and the overweight person (for the most part) did, but YOU are the one we're talking about. YOU are judging a person based entirely on a stereotype that you have developed. So YOU are committing the same error that a racial bigot would make: Assuming that all people with a certain appearance MUST act a certain way. This a major problem in today's society. People just don't accept responsibility for themselves. It's always the other person's fault. You stereotype and hate, yet it's the other person's fault for being that way. You have no responsibility in the matter. Physician, heal thyself.

I never said that fat people were being discriminated against. I was responding to your judgement of potential employees and how you assume (ASS U ME) they must act a certain way. ( I sure hope you don't work in Human Resources) Like I said, I'm overweight and I've never suffered from a lack of motivation, nor laziness. I finished college with a Masters Degree and in the top 5 percent of the class, I studied boxing (and had one pro fight) for four years, I've written 3 novels and two collections of poetry, I worked my way through a major corporation from a summer, mail room intern to a junior vice-president, I moved to Mexico and opened an English Academy, I'm opening another branch of my school, I volunteer with orphans in a nearby village, and I'm opening two other businesses. And I'm barely past 30 years of age. (All this, and I still have time for my "hobby"). Now, I'm not bragging because many people have accomplished a lot more than me, but I know to expect some snide remark. ( I really don't like to give out so many
personal details). I just wanted to point out the flaw in your prejudice. I am NOT lazy or sedate, yet I'm overweight!!! How can this be? Do I like to eat? Hell, yeah. Do I like to sleep with beautiful women, Hell yeah. But my over-eating and my reluctance to run on a treadmill has never affected my desire to bust my (fat)ass to do a great job at anything and everything I try.

Your so-called fact-based discussion is just a series of opinions that you have formulated. Don't try to pretend otherwise because there are NO facts to point out that ALL fat people are a certain way. Show me one "fact" that supports your irrational prejudice...

So, recap. Opinions passed off as "facts" are bad. Judging people on your own personal experiences with them is good. People believed in the Flat Earth theory because they only had opinions, not first hand facts. They were proved wrong by somebody who actually took the effort to discover the truth first hand. Judging people on the content of their character is good. Insisting that someone be "held accountable" for a behavior that may or may not be relevant to the task at hand is bad. Freedom to be a "jack-ass", good. Forcing your personal preferences on others, bad.

Have a SUPER day. Here's an olive branch: You're as intelligent and reasonable as you are tolerant. :) :) :) :) :) ;)

miller2k

Thank you for your discussion. I recognize and appreciate that. To reciprocate your goodwill gesture, I am not going to repeat my discussion on "discrimination" versus factual judgement. I would, however, address two questions you raised.

1. Active but still overweight, why?
I probably eat more than you. Yes, I eat a lot. The average American food is very unhealthy, filled with cheese, sour cream, cream, high fat milk, meat paddies and the like. The cooking method is unhealthy too, lots of deep fried, lots of fats with animal fat etc. So, I tend to do my own cooking. Also, I eat a lot but also very little portion, but I eat a lot of meals during the course of the day. Avoid processed foods (as in foods or drinks with high sugar), if you like sugar, eat lots of fruits. Try fish, chicken and all sorts of veggies. Also, bear in mind "fat" as in meat fat is NOT the only culprit. Refined sugar too. When you look at the packaged food available in grocery, the sugar content is huge. Case in point, a 16 ounce bottle CoCa Cola will get you 150 plus calories and to burn this much energy, you have to walk briskly for 90 minutes! A small bowl of honey glazed cereal has 100 calories of sugar! So, diet is a critical step to weight management. Again, I am not saying this is your diet. However, according to all the reports I read and observation of my overweight friends, their diet is the number 1 culprit.

2. Exercise.
I am not talking about trying to win the Olympics gold medals nor am I referring to how busy you work. You can lead a very busy life yet still have a sedate lifestyle. Last month, I worked so hard at the office and got lazy and failed to do excercise, I gained 20lbs in a month! Working hard in your business has nothing to do with motivation to manage a Life (as so brilliently stated by Tony Robbins). For exercise, I mean modest exercise and a motivation to make exercise as a lifestyle. What do I mean by lifestyle? Like parking the car four or five blocks from the office, and walk a distance, as in climbing the stairs to the apartment. Take time out to brisk walk everyday for 30 minutes. If you like, do a 30 minutes jogging every other day. Do 20 minutes light weight lifting every other day. I work in the third level of a six storey office and I notice many of my colleagues would take the elevator commuting even from ground level to the first. Their lifestyle or life pattern is very sedate. In fact, climbing the stairs gives you a good excuse to exercise. Also, as a first step, don't pressure yourself to do everything all at once, one step at a time. However, make sure the consistency is there. Motivate yourself to make every tiny step counts. Focus on one pound per week, per month.

Now having said all this, weight is a personal choice. As you make a choice, society is to hold you accountable to the choice you made. It is much easier to manage weight than to change the society. In addition to that, even you have alluded to the benefit of weight management. I wish you best! :)

well...I'm glad to see that you've assumed a more reasonable tone...I'm also glad that you (maybe inadvertently) have seen the error in your initial statements...So, ALL fat people are not necessarily lazy and detrimental to the work environment....Not having the healthiest of diets is not an indication of being a terrible, inneficient person...it's merely a bad lifestyle choice...and who among us has not fallen victim to bad lifestyle choices? But this does not mean that we are somehow diminished as a person...There is a difference between being "held accountable" for a lifestyle choice and being discriminated against. It's the difference between :"She's so fat, no wonder she can't find pants that fit her" and "Look at her fat ass, there's no way I would ever hire that tub." The former is a direct, fair (but not necessarily sensitive) assesment...eats a lot+ no exercise= difficulty in finding clothes to wear. The latter is NOT a fair assesment, it is the assumption of guilt in ALL areas for the guilt in one. It would be like being convicted of a moving violation in traffic court and then the judge telling you that he will hold you for questioning in a murder because "ALL traffic violators are murderers."

Well...I wish you well. Maybe somewhere down the line we can debate again (Hell, we might even be on the same side the next time)

miller2k

i want to extend a hand of friendship and reconciliation to you. let me be honest with you, i was quite touched by your earlier posting. you came out and stated about the success of your business, your involvement in your community etc. it is your personal privacy and you don't owe anyone a "confession" ;like this on this board and you did that. i feel very touched by your writing. i felt, i could have presented the facts much better, in a more diplomatic form with you. throughout my discussion, i have chosen to use unbiased evidence from the behavioral science, medical science fields. however, sometimes in a heated discussion, dry facts can be annoying and i may be guilty of too many dry facts. case in point, oj was acquitted not by factual evidence but by emotional sentiments. so, i am aware of that and i felt you have been unfairly treated in this discussion. so, for lack of a better word, i want to apologize to you. having said that.........

it was in no way i want to discard the truth that obesity and laziness, lack of motivation, personal discipline is directly linked. based on every scientific evidence, they are. i do not want to be the italian guy (corpenicus? sp?) who had every scientific fact to say that flat earth is wrong but later retrenched due to political pressure from the vatican. so, it is not an "assumption" but "conclusion" based on long range scientific research and evidence. so, yes, lack of motivation/discipline/laziness is the cause of obesity. having restated that.........

i want to make sure you understand everybody is entitled to make their own choice in life and i am, from the very beginning, did not call on you to make a different choice. this entire discussion was started when you felt obesity is an inherited gene (i maintain it is a choice one conscienciously made) and that society discriminates against obese people as in discriminating of blacks (i maintain there is 1*. no evidence of discrimination and 2*. holding one accountable to the choice one made is no discrimination).

miller2k, i would say we agree to disagree. in no way our disagreement makes either one of us as being anything negative. this is the nature of any political discussion, . if you believe in your principle, hold on to it. the same for me. hey, may be you are winning! i heard on the radio that in california, where 40% of school children are obese, there were reported cases of "discrimination" where the "lean" children were being rejected by the fat group or experiencing peer pressure to get fat, to "get along" so to speak. so, i will not be the least bit surprised that one of these days, i have to get to 300lbs to avoid "discrimination"! would i do that, you bet i will if that is the only way i can avoid being discrimination. i wish you well. :)


yes, i know we are onhe same side on at least one issue, i.e. free to choose, free to make a

Nofatso,

Let us have one more go of it then (sorry for my tardiness, fast internet access is on and off with me).

My objection to your treatments of people who were overweight lay solely in the moral evaluation (as opposed to the "facts"). -- Lazy, Gluttonous, etc.

Clearly, being overweight is bad for your health. However, that *does not* mean you are lazy in general. For example, there are lots of overweight people who, while *physically* lazy, still work their butt's off at work (~mentally). Also (and more importantly), who are we to judge?!? If someone doesn't like exercising, we can't say their decision is wrong. It very well could be that their decision to not exercise was perfectly rational (too much effort for not enough gain...)

Likewise, calling someone "gluttonous" has moral overtones ... it is, after all, one of the seven deadly sins. There is a vast difference between saying "gluttonous" and "eats a lot". One has moral overtones, another does not. A glutton is a *bad person* because he eats a lot. A person who simply eats a lot might be good or bad.

*Sighs*. I hope I have successfully communicated my main problem with the phrasing of your earlier posts.

Sincerely,
David

P.S. I'm impressed with your composure. Thank you for engaging in civil debate. *Smiles*.

Let me continue (about the lazy thing).

To be lazy is immoral (at least according to older protestant teachings). To chose not to do something because you don't find it sufficiently worthwhile (be it excercise, getting a second job, etc.) is simply decision making.

It is really this distinction ... the difference between judging a person, and describing typical decisions made by people, that I am trying to emphasize.

As an example (you describing people who are fat, and me describing them).

You:

They're (typically) lazy, gluttons.

Me:

They tend to be less physically active, and tend to eat more.


Ah. I think I've done a better job explaining. Good. I look forward to hearing from you.

Smiles,
David

Nofatso...one clarification: I never said that I felt that being overweight was solely an inhertited gene. I DON'T believe that. I think that it, just as with almost every other behavioral trait, is a mixture of nature and nurture. Skinny people aren't always skinny just because they eat fruits and workout...Nature always will have her say in the matter. Even when I was in training, I still looked heavy. I worked out daily and ate all of the right foods (as prescribed by my trainer) and I still looked pudgy. I stopped training so hard after I realized that women would still want me, my employer would still value me, and life would still be beautiful if I didn't kill myself an hour and a half a day (3 hours on Tues. and Fri)

Having said that, my main point of contention was with your "They don't exercise so they must be lazy" generlization. Sure, maybe overweight people are "unmotivated" to work out, but this attitude does not necessarily translate to lack of motivation in all areas. You might LOVE chocolate and eat it like a pig, but that doesn't mean that if I bring over a few steaks you will devour them all. Lack of desire to be "in style" isn't laziness per se...sure, it CAN be, but you can't make a total generlization. Sure, you can point to the cold, hard facts that state "Lack of exercise and poor eating habits cause 99% of the obesity in the world." But, I was never disputing that. What I WAS disputing was your theory that lack of exercise always is laziness and laziness with regards to exercise is always a sign of laziness in other areas of life. There are no cold, hard facts to prove that point...because it's wrong.

I also disagree with another point. This one is more of an issue of personal preference. I will ALWAYS be exactly how I wish to be. So, even if the norms of society change, I will keep being me. So, if everybody weighs 300lbs, keep being yourself. I've found that holding steady, standing firm, and being "real" will always triumph over stereotypical judgements...Discrimination only exists when the "victims" tolerate the discrimination...

from: The Happiest Man Alive, deep in the heart of Mexico

David

I appreciate your comments on "non judgemental". Most of us lead a life of being non judgemental unless the issue at stake involves our personal welfare. It just happened that I dare to articulate what most of us hide in our hearts. Having said that, I do understand that people have feelings and feelings can be hurt. Sometimes, it is socially feasible to remain silent but when too many of us keep silent, the truth lost out somewhere. I do not intend to repeat the central thesis of my discussions out of respect to miller2k's feelings. You can track my discussions from previous postings if you are interested.

After 9/11, many of us are under even more pressure to speak up if the truth is violated. Case in point, I saw a middle eastern looking man in our building and the first thing I did was to call the security and followed up with the management. Is this racial profiling, you bet, would I do it again, a resounding yes. As I stated, I truly do not intend to hurt miller2k's feeling, but I did which I regretted. It is a tough stance as how to make truth prevail and not hurting others feeling. It is a fine line I am still learning to track. I appreciate your comments.

miller2k

Thank you for your nice comments. I surely appreciate.

Seems like you and I will continue to disagree on ALL the issues we discuss, in particular, judgement based on facts is informed decision, not "discrimination" and behavior is the cause of obesity.

However, as I stated, you are entitled to your opinion and I will definitely fight for your right to speak your mind, I think this may be the area you and I both agree. How about we settle on this :)

nofatso...we DO agree on the concept of freedom...you're free to be wrong (ha,ha)

..but let me clarify that my feelings were NEVER hurt. I was ANGRY. I wasn't weeping because you insulted me. I was angry because you judged all fat people based on your limited knowledge. Opinions are alright, but they aren't alright when they stand in the way of someone making a living for their family. That's where I felt you crossed the line from "opinionated" (good) to "hateful" (bad)..and I will never remain silent with respect to something that I know to be wrong and dangerous.

YOUR truth did not prevail because it was just that ...YOUR truth. I respect the freedom to express opinions (moreso than most), but I don't respect the arrogance to assume that those same opinions are facts just because you believe them strongly.

I just can't understand why you don't understand my central point: Judging based on facts is reasonable, but making a correlation between one bad habit and all others is just plain wrong. If you say, "she is fat, she is lazy to work out, so she will be lazy at her place of employment" that's just the same as saying "He is black, blacks are criminals, so he will steal from his place of employment." You are making an assumption about a person's abilities and/or attributes based SOLELY on appearance. And behavior IS the cause of being overweight, but there is a genetic component as well. This IS a fact, but I'm not releasing all overweight people from responsibility...

I'm glad that your tone has calmed down (as opposed to the mocking, hateful tone you assumed much earlier in this section, when you assumed that everybody would rush in to join you and nobody would call you out), but you never have to "worry" about hurting my feelings.

Like I said, I respect your right to live as you see fit and I would defend with my life your right to freedom...

Let's end this because it's obvious that we're just repeating ourselves now...let's agree on this:

WE LOVE OUR HOBBY!!!! AND WE LOVE WOMEN!!!!

miller2k

Great! so we determine that =>

1. Both of us support the freedom to choose
2. Both of us support the freedom to speak our minds
3. Both of us like women and we like to have fun.

So, let's get back to the area we agree. Thank you.

I wouldn't believe it if I didn't see if with my own eyes. A friend of mine showed me this whole website (we're both female), and I can't believe guys spend so much time looking and paying for sex. I'm not some man-hater, but I've never heard guys talk about girls like this. I know there are some real stuck-up snobs out there, but some of these posts are lumping all American women together in the same category. There are some real jerks of men out there too you know but not all girls think of all guys that way. Why do you let the few rotten apples speak for the rest of us? We're not all out to wring you out dry and walk all over you! I will tell you though that the minute you let a girl walk over you, you're buried. Be nice to us but don't be spineless. Some of us are really nice and really cute too!

USBabe, you wrote:
"I will tell you though that the minute you let a girl walk over you, you're buried. Be nice to us but don't be spineless. "

Thats where the problem is for a lot of us guys. Be nice to us, but dont be spineless, sounds easy enough right? Not when you have to keep guessing what role she wants you to play and when. I was born outside of the US but have lived most of life within the US. Generally, women outside of the US are more comfortable with men playing the traditional "man's" role, which I think makes it a lot easier for guys to just be themselves and not have to worry about whether they are on that fine line of nice but not spineless.

Hi US Babe,

Thanks for your comments. Maybe there is hope out there.

I wanted to inform you that this topic goes far beyond just written statements on this forum. If you have read this forum and its archives, you'd find that American men are going overseas by the planeload to find women. The big target areas are central and South America, Asia and Eastern Europe in particular.

In fact, three friends of mine just returned from The Netherlands where they met women and had extraordianry sex. By the way, these are tall, good looking professional guys with two of them having incomes in excess of 100K. This seems to be a growing sociological movement and has been examined already in the news media. In fact, this "exodus" seems to be acccelerating. The women in the US who know that I go to Eastern Europe to meet women also become very livid and irate with me when this topic comes up.

What are your thoughts and comments???

Had I read the post by USbabe just a short while ago, I would have laid a mushroom cloud at her doorstep. Since I now try to think before responding to such a button-pushing issue (with ME that is) I'll try to calmy explain to her WHY her remedy to the situation works the OPPOSITE.

USbabe, I won't go the past route and say that ALL US women are Greedy, Rude, Obnoxious, Arrogant and Narcissistic. A GREAT MANY of them are and I'll tell you why. I always keep my eyes and ears open and my mouth shut. Okay, the third one is more difficult to do, but I do it enough to be able to ascertain information about a woman when I listen to her directly (when she's talking to ME) or indirectly (when I hear her talking to her friends). I often hear what they expect from a man and it seems as if US women are expecting a man to lay his world at their feet. That would be no problem with me IF I found a woman who realized that it's a two way street and that you have to EARN that world. You gotta be worth your weight in GOLD to make those kind of demands and you must back them up without hesitation if you are to convey any credibility.

I have truly lost count of the women who have told me they want a nice guy, only later to learn that they TRULY want an "exciting" guy instead. It's the constant (and UNANNOUNCED) change of rules in the middle of the game that make men scratch their heads and determine that women are incapable of logic. Myself, I like for a woman to be up front with me regarding her feelings (or lack thereof) for me. Sure it may sting initially, BUT I will respect her and give her a wide berth if she tells me up front that she's not interested. (I once had a woman reject me firmly, but politely. I was astonished at such a RARE display of true class, but I kept my composure and acquiesced to her wishes) INSTEAD, they will leave the hint (STOMP IT OUT,IF THERE IS NONE LADIES) that there is the possibility of an eventual romantic situation between them. They're afraid that our egos will shatter if we are rejected outright. Better to stomp out a fire NOW than to allow it to run rampant because you didn't take care of things up front. [To digress, yes, all, I was stupid enough NOT to put two and two together and burn bridges that would never have worked in the first place!] Anyway, getting back to the desire for a "nice" guy: when the women hook up with their TRUE choice of the exciting guy, many times they end up with an "addition" to the world that they did not plan and the exciting guy keeps true to his form of being exciting, by blowing town and avoiding his responsibilities. At the very least, he will contribute to a broken heart (the woman's) and add another notch to his bedpost, which ends up having American women lumping those of us who DON'T treat women like dog droppings into the same category as the offending guy who DIDN'T respect them. Meanwhile (in many cases, not ALL) the one whom she thought of as worthy of "plantng the seed" in her field of fertility has blown town and NOW she seeks a CHUMP to take care of the harvest. Who's that, you may ask? The nice guy she turned up her nose at in the FIRST PLACE. I don't know about my compadres on this board, but when a woman sees me only as a means to alleviate the hardships of taking care of the result of her mistake, I get disgusted and see the previously sought-after silk purse as a true sow.

I now realize (I mean TRULY REALIZE) that each and every human being has their own individual tastes and that not every woman will like me. C'est La Vie. Being in this "battle" has taught me to cut my losses and move on. Actually, it's taught me to determine a loss BEFORE I waste my time with a double-speaking, fork-tongued "gamestress".

To my compadres who contribue to this board, I hope I've not produced a lifeless, radioactive crater as I have in the past. Like I said, for ME, this is a button pushing issue that would have in the past, caused me to launch a thermonuclear arsenal and be damned who gets hurt.