American Women

Lenin -

As a native Russian man with ten years experience in the American culture, you are in a unique position to focus on the limited topic of American women in relation to the "better" women in a foreign culture.
Specifically, what do you observe in the American system and culture that is lacking or existing that makes women from your native country of Russia better to deal with in the personal relations area? In this question, I am asking you to focus on specifics that you have learned of in your experience.
Examples and stories are helpful to make a point sometimes (and I have enjoyed several of yours), but specific statements regarding observations on our cultures relating to the personal relations of men and women would be most appreciated.
Put another way, and addressing many of the concerns of other posters, what is the problem specifically with American women and what would have to be changed to make them better?

Hi Guys,

I am back from Brazil and I had a blast and got some ass!! The hardest part about my vacation was leaving Rio and my non-pro girlfriend in Rio. The women there are as warm and friendly as the weather. It was 95 to 100 degrees but rained hard for 20 minutes at a time. In fact, I didn't really get to go to many termas because I met a non-pro the at a Samba party after the parade days. I did get a chance to go to 4X4 before going to the Sambadrome. I also tried Solarium and Villa Mimosa. I will post my experiences with those places in the Rio de Janeiro section.
Other than that, I spent most of my time with my lovely non-pro girlfriend.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by joe_zop
[i]Lenin, I agree that, on the whole, American women are far bigger pains than their counterparts in other countries. I don't agree with a blanket statement that [i]all[/i] American women suck, because I know many who do not.
[/i][/QUOTE]
joe_zop, it was my first attempt to find consensus.
If you want to make it more generic, I don’t mind.
I am bad in English please feel free to correct me:
Average American woman one of the worst in personal interactions with man
In comparison with average woman from most of the others countries
Some parts of American System and American Culture responsible for this situation.
[QUOTE]
[i]So while consensus is needed on the overall problem, and general agreement on the major aspects of the problem, agreement is not needed on every specific piece in order to go forward.
[/i][/QUOTE]
I agree with that. We need general agreement on the major aspects of the problem.
If somebody have more or less generic statements he can go ahead and we can
discuss it.
[QUOTE]
[i]
If we're talking about problem-solving, one useful next step of the process can be to define clearly where there is consensus and where there is disagreement. That is a way of establishing priority of desired changes.
[/i][/QUOTE]
Good idea.
[QUOTE]
So I rather think identifying the problem in really, really broad strokes is not something where a lot of time is needed.
[/i][/QUOTE]
Well, this could be more difficult than it seems. Often the simple problem
Could lead to more difficult hidden problems.
For Example we practically did not touch the painful topic of relation
Among the men in North America, which at first glance, have nothing
To do with American women but in fact it is.

Hey Darkseid,

Welcome back! Sounds like you had a truly great time. You also ducked some really bad weather up here.

Am contemplating a trip to Rio myself. What can you tell me about the language barrier there? Could one get by with a few key phrases and nonverbal hand cues? Also, did you notice any crime problems or related hassles down there? I "read" that the president of Brazil called out the military to protect Mardi Gras.

One last thing. How did you get money down there? Did you use ATM machines, currency exchanges, etc.?

[i]we practically did not touch the painful topic of relation
Among the men in North America, which at first glance, have nothing To do with American women but in fact it is[/i]

Well, this seems as though you want to tackle the greater issue of interpersonal issues in general on the continent, which may be a valid and appropriate topic but is also such a huge issue that an entire board could be dedicated to it! The same thing could be said about the system and culture. I don't necessarily disagree with the idea that there may be overall poor interpersonal communication in North America, but one of the challenges in looking at something like this is not to spin too far off-topic, even if the topics may be related to some degree. I can easily make a list of a dozen semi-related issues which might be contributing factors, a lot of which have been brought up here in the past, but if we're going to discuss absolutely everything we may well end up discussing nothing.

[i]Average American woman one of the worst in personal interactions with man
In comparison with average woman from most of the others countries
Some parts of American System and American Culture responsible for this situation.[/i]

Most people in this section would agree with this statement. I would extend it further to very specifically say that the problem, from the perspective of most guys here, is specifically how those poor personal interactions manifest themselves in American women's attitudes toward sex, since that is the aspect that relates to the mission of this board, and in their general demeanor toward men as a gender.

I think it would be useful to further quantify some of these complaints, since we're making a generalized statement about American women in comparison to non-American women. Lenin, I agree with Jak that you, as someone whose cultural background and experience is different, are well positioned to make comments on the difference between American women and, say, Russian women. How would you compare and contrast the differences about attitude, behavior, and demeanor between the two? What are the strengths and what are the weaknesses?

I encourage other folks to do the same regarding women of other countries with whom they've had relationships, but how about, if you're going to make a comparison, also discussing what might be problematic about non-American women? I suggest this so it doesn't just become another complete trash American women orgy (which we've had lots of, and will no doubt have again) as opposed to actual discussion of the differences. It would also help us be clear about where this is a problem with American women specifically and where this is a general man/woman issue.

Hi Paddy,

There are few people in Rio that speak English but a lot of them speak Spanish so you can get away with Spanish and hand gestures for the words you don't know. I, fortunately could speak portugese in the present tense but if I want to mean future tense I add the word "later" at the end of the sentence or "before" to mean past tense.
Currency rates are excellent if you go to the ATMs. The rate is 3.5 to 1. However some ATMs won't take american cards but the ones that do are the citbanks and you must go to them from 10AM to 10PM. The currency exchange shops only give you 3.3 to 1 for american dollars so they can make money off of you.
The President put out security to ensure the safety of the tourists in Rio during Carnival. There was a military presence to assure that Rio is clear of gangs or violence. Overall, I felt safe in Rio because of these military police. No one even tried to pickpocket me either but still, it is wise not to carry more than you need.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by joe_zop
[i]I can easily make a list of a dozen semi-related issues which might be contributing factors, a lot of which have been brought up here in the past, but if we're going to discuss absolutely everything we may well end up discussing nothing.[/i]

I think, you could go ahead with list of semi-related issues. Actually it would be helpful because in this case we are not going to miss something important. We should just
put different priority for each one of them and discuss only the most important.

I also encourage everyone who not agrees with below statement to tell why:

Average American woman one of the worst in personal interactions with man
In comparison with average woman from most of the others countries
Some parts of American System and American Culture responsible for this situation.


[QUOTE]
[i]
I think it would be useful to further quantify some of these complaints, since we're making a generalized statement about American women in comparison to non-American women
[/i]

Good idea. If we manage to do it properly, this would be powerful tool.
I will think about comparison between the American and Russian women and post it later.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by joe_zop
[i]America high tech revolution was created by hundred of thousand negative-minded immigrants programmers.

As far as the "woman beat husband and then call to police" thing, well, there's no doubt that it happens at times. There's also no doubt that the far, far, more frequent occurence is the opposite side of things -- there's a huge amount of domestic violence, and the vast majority of it is men hitting women. Twenty years ago that wasn't something that could draw a cop at all unless someone went to a hospital, now it is. Ten years ago the concept that men could be hit or abused by women was a joke, now people see it happens, with the general percentage considered to be about 15% of cases (haven't been able to track down whether that includes same-sex partners, which it may) and even some feminists are starting to acknowledge unbalance of the issue (see [url]http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2002/1104a.html[/url] for example).

[/i][/QUOTE]I think the stats actually show that women initiate physical violence as often as men (as the article you cite acknowledges). The disparity comes in the severity of the violence - men hit harder.

That women are as violence prone as men is explained away by feminists because it doesn't fit their theory of the patriarchical society, such as by saying that women's violence is self-defense against repeated male abuse. They completely deny human nature that some people are bad, men and women.

Since feminists have insisted on zero-tolerance of abuse (some counties require automatic arrest at the slightest whiff of domestic violence) you should see women being arrested at the same rate as men - however it is obvious men have significantly less due process in this regard than women.

[url]http://www.menweb.org/batnytim.htm[/url]

This link has a nice example of how the zero-tolerance dragnet is scooping more women than the feminazis anticipated to their dismay - to the extent the feminazis are saying maybe "we set the bar too low", ie the goal of any domestic violence is to arrest men, but violence can be excused if it is committed by women.

Which maybe it should be. Their is alot of hysteria and propaganda around the issue.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by joe_zop
[i][i]....frankly, guys who are going for mail-order brides are hardly prime examples of how American men deal with women, and, in fact, are usually basically the opposite- people with little or no relationship experience or confidence, who are therefore ripe for abuse.
[/i][/QUOTE]

Isn't this the same canard said of hobbyists - losers who can't make it with *real* women (real always left undefined).

There's alot of reason to go abroad and alot of different guys go looking - just as there are different types here - no better or worse than your average joe (:-) ).

Anybody can check out the forums at www.planet-love.com

eg the Latina forum is at [url]http://www.planet-love.com/wwwboard/latin/[/url]

This has 4+ years of multi-threaded archives describing the scams, green-card hustle, thinking with the wrong head etc, but with the good stuff mixed in of guys finding what alot of them had embarked on: real love.

A fair chunk of the archive is a mirror image of this one, problems regular guys have with AW's. But reading the archive shows how absurd the imputation is that they're just a bunch of people with "no confidence".

RE: JZ's suggestion

I was very very seriously involved with a girl from mainland china. And, one thing that made her stand out from American girls was her attitude about my money. She was very interested in protecting it and making sure that I always saved for that proverbial rainy day.

An example, I bought her one of those Aibo dogs from Sony as a Christmas present. Now, she was completely thrilled by it, but insisted that I take it back because it was not a wise way to spend money. I know she liked it, because we kept it for two weeks (max time to return it) and she played with it non-stop. In the end, even though I made sure she knew it was well within our affordability level, she repacked it and sent me to get my refund.

There were many other instances of this type of behavior. I'm big on impulse buying, and, when I've been hooked up with American girlfriends, I've had financial problems. This girl really helped me manage my finances.

I don't think it was just her either. I've been around a lot of chinese people in my professional and social life. And, based on experience, I think, chinese women are more fiscally responsible than american (and certainly other asian) women.

American women story.

I was wondering if there are any men in the world
who actually care about their children?
I am a home-schooling mom and I spend a
considerable amount of time researching
and educating myself to serve my children
and my husband. I keep the house clean,
I cook, I garden, I have accepted complete
responsibility for their education.
Our home is a wonderful place and
I'm wondering if there are any men who
really care about this. Every day when
my husband comes home from work all I hear
is BLA BLA BLA about his stupid job and his
stupid co-workers.
When he's not working he's hanging out
with his friends. We never go out as a
family anymore and I'm sick of it.
I think I'd like to run away to another state,
buy a house on a mountaintop and tell
the kids he's dead. I'm sure that if we continue
like this they'll end up marrying men who
are equally selfish and pig headed.
He thinks there is nothing wrong with
our marriage and often comments on how
happy we are.
I always tell him how I am NOT happy and he ignores it.
I am very lonely and I'm seriously checking
into leaving the state.
I heard houses are really cheap in Iowa.

It is shocking for me.
I think Russian women would try much harder
to save this family life.
American women don’t see nothing except divorce.

Lenin,

First, is this a hypothetical? The story of a personal friend? Something you culled from another board?

Second, it sounds like the American Woman put up with a lot of shit, for a long time before she seriously considered leaving. You imply the Russian woman would have left long ago?

This seems to point to a '+' for American Woman. Are you saying that, in this case, American women are more loyal? Or did I miss the point?

Disclaimer: This isn't exactly 'American Women,' but considering the amount of discussion about the 'American System' I figure it's fair game.

A monger, in the Thai section, recently posted a question concerning emotions he thought he developed for a pro while on a visit to LOS. Now, whether those feelings are immature or not, is not what I'm trying to discuss. What I'd like to point out is that the 'System' is certainly letting down the citizens of the country. Here's how:

The monger, lets call him IrishLager, thinks he's fallen in love with this girl. He doesn't know what her true feelings are for him. But, now he wants to pursue the relationship. Due to the system, he's left with two choices.
[list=1][*]Move to Thailand (if possible)[*]Bring her to live with him in the U.S.[/list]
Option 1 may or may not be feasible. If he's got a telecommuting job or enough money, he might be able to afford moving there. Of course, he has to deal with immigration issues in becoming a permanent resident there.

Option 2 is the one that causes the real trouble though. In order to bring her to the U.S. he would have to marry her. No way in hell is she going to get an H-1B (working visa). Not much better odds of getting a travel visa. In fact, the only realistic way she comes over here is via marriage.

Now, assuming he decides to go against everything he's warned about, marry her and bring her over here, he's got to take this huge risk. If this girl turns out to be a scam artist, she can really take him to the cleaners now. And, even if she is sincere, the odds are against them.

This is a flaw in the 'system.' Why not have dating visas? A person (with enough financial means) could sponsor another person to come over here for a 6 month to 1 year stay. During that time, the person, would have to take some form of semi-permanent birth control (those shots they can give that last up to 1 year). And, the import would be allowed to work here, but would not be entitled to any government benefits. Now, they could spend some time dating, and if it didn't work out, no harm, no foul. Foreigner goes back home and the sponsor can go looking for someone else. No financial or other obligations.

purplengold,
Russian women would be much more loyal in Russia.
Here probably still more loyal than American women.

Funny. You changed your last comment on the post. You originally had that the Russian woman would be 'happy to leave'. Was this just an English mistake that you corrected?

you were fast to read it, it was correction.

Okay. Makes your post make more sense to me now. I thought it was odd that you had posted something positive about AW.

I'm curious though about the russian women thing. The russian friends I know, some of them women, have told me in the past not to get involved with russian women because they are unstable in relationships. I've even been told that a large number of russian girls get married at 18 and divorced before their 19'th birthday.

Well, It’s all depends.
First of all, where?
Legally, marriage in Russia is not such a big deal like here.
18 years old could get married just for fun.
And in Russia much easier make divorce than here.
It is true that Russian women are unstable here.
They come here to find better deal.
Once they find husband, which satisfy them
I think they are going to be more loyal
than American women.
But again, they should be treated specially
In generally I would not recommend Russian women to
American Man for marriage.
Only If he knows well Russian Culture
And Russian language then it could work.

Lenin, as requested, here's a quick few other complaints that have shown up here regarding American women:

1. Mercenary -- money hungry and/or focused on material possessions, status, etc.
2. Fat (oh, lord, can we [i]please[/i] not have that discussion/diatribe again!)
3. Aggressive/not passive
4. Quick to want marriage/divorce (often stated in connection with #1)
5. Too children-oriented
6. Boring, but expecting entertainment from man.
7. Paranoid and/or suspicious of men in general, and of men's intentions.

There are tons of other things, but those are all things that have sparked discussion here in the past. Some I'd say fall into the general man/woman category, but the question is whether or not there's a particularly American manifestation of those. Others are things that are uniquely related to American women.

I don't necessarily agree or disagree with all of these, but they're what I've culled at general themes here.

Another thing I might add on JZ's list against AWs is UNAPPRECIATIVE. I witnessed a breakup of an American couple sitting behind me on the plane where the boyfriend made the mistake of trying to salvage the relationship by taking her to Rio for Carnaval and although she loved the trip, she still wanted to move out of his apartment because she told him that he still didn't do enough to save the relationship. Geez, this trip costs thousands of dollars, what more does she want? I think he is better off hanging with us mongers and having a blast without her and hooking up with a nice Brazilian chick than keeping that headache of a girlfriend. Meanwhile, the chick I met on my trip in a party after the parades, Elienne, was very appreciative when I took her to eat at the churriscos and Marius's seafood buffet and on the touristy sugar loaf and corcovado.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by darkseid
[i]Another thing I might add on JZ's list against AWs is UNAPPRECIATIVE. [/i][/QUOTE]

Got that right!! Janet Jackson summed up the AW attitude when she sang "What have you done for me lately?"

BTW, [i]AW[/i] = American Women, [i]AWs[/i] = American Womens.

joe_zop, interesting list.
Problems 6. Boring and 7. Paranoid I notice right away when I came here.
Same complained I heard from my Russian friends.
Number 7. Paranoid, especially frustrated. I never experienced something like that in others countries.
You feel like something wrong with you.
I think that one of the reason why American men have such a low self-esteem.
I am not sure that you mean in 5. Too children-oriented?
If AW wants have children more than woman in other countries why such a low birth rate in US? Or you mean they care more about children than about husband?

I don't think AW are any more paranoid than women from other cultures. In fact, I think AW are more secure due to their heightened self-confidence.

Of course the heightened self-confidence is often not deserved :)

Hmm, strange. You mean not paranoid during LTR?
At least in the beginning of the relations or at the first dates my friends and me noticed that they are much more paranoid.

Again, these are not my complaints per se, simply my distillation and interpretation of what I've been reading here for the past many months. I'm very much open to correction. Darkseid's addition is a good one, and it's one I overlooked, despite there being many complaints here about it. Thanks!

PNG, self-confidence and security does not cancel out being suspicious of men's intentions. I agree with you that in general American women have a different degree of self-confidence, as it manifests itself in knowing their place in the social order is secure, than many women in other countries. On the other hand, while they're more confident as [i]people[/i], they're often less confident and secure as [i]women[/i], torturing themselves over their personal choices, their balancing of career versus family, how the media tells them they should be, etc. But the general climate of society here is essentially that women have a degree of purity and selflessness about their intentions and men are basically animals who need to be watched out for -- and that very much suffuses American women's outlooks.

And Lenin, the complaint exactly is that the children are important, the husband is not.

Lenin -

You and your Russian friends noticed right away that American women were boring and paranoid.
What are some specific examples of how you and your friends quickly felt this in your experiences after coming here? How are American women boring? What are they paranoid about?

JZ and Lenin,

I didn't say they weren't paranoid. I said they weren't any more paranoid than women in other cultures. And, I augmented that with the idea that I thought they might be less paranoid. But, certainly, the paranoia is there.

Regardless, I should probably have just said "suspicious" as opposed to "paranoid" as that's probably more to the point, since it wasn't really a general statement about their mental health, just about their attitude toward men. And I personally do find that American women are more suspicious of men's intentions than their counterparts abroad. (And, as I've argued here before, given that the stats say that one woman in three in this country will be assaulted at some point during her life, I'm not at all saying that it's not a deserved perspective.)

Darkseid’s UNAPPRECIATIVE is good one.
For better clarity term paranoid could be split in tree: suspicious, trust, emotional contact.
AW boring because you don’t feel emotional contact with them as
you feel with Russian or Latin girls, not just because their knowledge are limited.
When you starting with AW you get feeling you are treated like criminal
Not much trust. Faked and weak emotional contact. Faked smile.
Suddenly her mood could be dropped and I have no idea what is going on
in her head. Sometimes I have feeling that I am talking to computer
not to real women. More you trying to be sincere, less you get trust.
I is funny, when I go to Russia after long time living here
I am surprised that the girls are not afraid to go with you in anyplace
alone even if they know you just one hour.
I am surprised girl tell you lot of private secrets about herself.
I am surprised she let you go in her apartment at first evening.
I feel a lot of trust and emotional contact
After couple days I have feeling that I know this girl already one month.
Same feeling I had in Cuba with Cuban girls.

Hey guys listen to Lenin, Brazilian girls are the same way!

Hey Darkseid,

Thanks for the information. It was exactly what I needed. By the way, where did you stay and would you recommend it?

Am looking forward to the comprehensive posting on your trip and experiences that you had mentioned. "Blame it on Rio" as they say!

lenin,

i'm just wondering how much of your experience with aw is tainted because of cultural barriers? i mean, you are not completely fluent in english. you obviously dislike america and americans. so, maybe it's no surprise that aw treat you with suspicion and dislike.

also, given the implications of how you would treat a woman to 'keep her in line,' and assuming your attitude is prevalent among russian men (which russian women have told me that it is), it is truly scary to think russian women would be so incredibly stupid to be so trusting.

truth is, aw are paranoid with good reason. [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url] is not so uncommon as to be disregarded. and, this is definitely a case where 'better safe than sorry' applies.

jz, i agree with your rephrasing from paranoid to suspicious. in this context, i'll use paranoid to refer to fear of being victimized by [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url] or brutality. and, i'll use suspicious to refer to feelings of insecurity concerning the boyfriend's possible extra-curriculurs.

I still think that AW are no more suspicious than their foreign counterparts. I've had a total of 6 serious relationships. 3 Were with Asians, 1 with a latina and 2 with AW. The most suspicious were the Asians, by far. The chica and 2 AW's were both suspicious, but healthily so.

Of my friends, there are mixed couples and couples of like ethnicity (not necessarily American). Again, I gotta say, with one exception, the American women never come off as hyper-suspicious. The asian women on the other hand keep their hubbies/significant others on very tight leashes.

An aside that sort of goes against my argument: the TG that got me all giddy was the least suspicious of all. I talked with her about how she would feel about me continuing to go pick up girls, and she said that she understood that I was a man and needed that kind of thing.

Three x, I know that too :)
purplengold, I have even more cultural barrier with Cubans or Brazilians but it has never been the problem. I did not talk to North American girls about liking or disliking America. When I go out with Canadian guys I also see that there is
not much emotional interaction between them and AW.
I also have women friends: Brazilian, Iranian, Hungarian, Rumanian, Poland and Czech women. This pattern is consistent also with women friends. I feel them like normal people; I feel something wrong with AW. I don’t feel that they normal. I also have similar complains from Brazilian, and Rumanian friends about AW. I even have similar complains From Russian, Brazilian and Czech women friends about AW. There is really something emotionally wrong with AW. I would like to know, but probably I never will because I don’t want to have anything with them.
About 'keep women in line’ I am afraid you didn’t understand me right.
There are no reasons why Russian woman cannot trust Russians man.
It is very intuitive relationship. She know limits what she can do and what cannot.

Paddy,

I rented an apartment for $763 for 10 days (you must stay for 10 days with this rental). This apartment was small but was in a great location 2 blocks from Copacabana beach. You don't get catered like you do in the hotels where the cleaning lady makes your bed, cleans your mess, replaces your towels, soap, etc, though. The apartment also doesn't have a backup generator and water supply when there are blackouts unlike most hotels. However, you are free to bring chicks into the apartment but you have to be sure your room is clean every morning and that you are not a slob. A hotel would ask for their ID and charge you an extra R30 guest fee.
If you like the catering and don't mind paying for the guests, then hotel is the way (except during Carnival when they multiply the price 5 times).
If you like the freedom, but don't mind the responsibility of the apartment, then you can rent an apartment.
The apartment I rented I didn't like only because it was very small but it was what I could afford during Carnival season. It did have a kitchen though and I could store food and heat it up if I couldn't finish what I ordered in the Casa de Feijoda. It would normally be $300 for 10 days. The website for my apartment is [url]www.telefonema.net.[/url]
The Brazilian chick I hooked up with made me forget the problems associated with American women. I wish I could stay down there for the rest of my life. Oh well, there is always retirement and vacations to Brazil and I highly doubt that there is a non-racist American woman that would hook up with me and tie me down to America anyway.

Lenin -

Two of the recent focus points seem to be on the "boring" and "suspicious" nature of AW. The boring aspect I would have thought had something to do with the suspicious nature of AW, since it was mainly an emotional distance that was felt. But you then give examples of all the different women from different countries that have the same feelings about AW.
Are AW just emotionally distant in general compared to other women from many different countries? They are not just "boring" to men, but also to other women?
I do see the "suspicious" nature of AW women to be a separate quality from their emotional distance, since, as you stated with your trips back to Russia, Russian women do not seem to have a fear of going with men anywhere, even after knowing them for one hour.

Thanks Jak, you as usually helped me with vocabulary.
“emotional distance” - very well describe AW.
Major complains from both foreign women and men about AW: emotionally distance, falseness and that they are boring.
(Also a lot of complains that they are ignorant about over cultures)
Jack, I think that suspicious is result of weak emotional intelligence of AW
For example, interaction with RW is very emotional right from beginning.
They are joking, trying to make fun of you or even insult you.
They so kick you out from your internal balance that you
just cannot hide your real feeling.
They are watching your reaction and how you handle their verbal attacks.
After one hour they pretty well know your character,
what expect from you and then they decide can they trust you or not.
Don’t think that they just stupid to go with any stranger.
They are very confident what they are doing.
It seems AW doesn’t have this emotional mechanism to check the stranger.
As result, they are just polite, scared or suspicious all the time.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lenin
[i]Three x, I know that too :)
purplengold, I have even more cultural barrier with Cubans or Brazilians but it has never been the problem. I did not talk to North American girls about liking or disliking America. When I go out with Canadian guys I also see that there is
not much emotional interaction between them and AW.
I also have women friends: Brazilian, Iranian, Hungarian, Rumanian, Poland and Czech women. This pattern is consistent also with women friends. I feel them like normal people; I feel something wrong with AW. I don’t feel that they normal. I also have similar complains from Brazilian, and Rumanian friends about AW. I even have similar complains From Russian, Brazilian and Czech women friends about AW.[/i][/QUOTE]

In all your examples, it's foreignors trying to relate to AW.

[QUOTE][i]There is really something emotionally wrong with AW. I would like to know, but probably I never will because I don’t want to have anything with them.[/i][/QUOTE]

And, maybe your not wanting to have anything with them is something they sense?

[i][QUOTE]
About 'keep women in line’ I am afraid you didn’t understand me right.
There are no reasons why Russian woman cannot trust Russians man.
It is very intuitive relationship. She know limits what she can do and what cannot. [/i][/QUOTE]

Not true. You have said that you would be able to put her in line. That implies that she would want to step out of line. Also, you said, back a few days ago, that AW would get put in line if they went to Russia. Now, they certainly wouldn't have the intuition. Hence, you are implying some kind of forced training.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by darkseid
[i]Paddy,

I rented an apartment for $763 for 10 days (you must stay for 10 days with this rental). This apartment was small but was in a great location 2 blocks from Copacabana beach. You don't get catered like you do in the hotels where the cleaning lady makes your bed, cleans your mess, replaces your towels, soap, etc, though. The apartment also doesn't have a backup generator and water supply when there are blackouts unlike most hotels. However, you are free to bring chicks into the apartment but you have to be sure your room is clean every morning and that you are not a slob. A hotel would ask for their ID and charge you an extra R30 guest fee.
If you like the catering and don't mind paying for the guests, then hotel is the way (except during Carnival when they multiply the price 5 times).
If you like the freedom, but don't mind the responsibility of the apartment, then you can rent an apartment.
The apartment I rented I didn't like only because it was very small but it was what I could afford during Carnival season. It did have a kitchen though and I could store food and heat it up if I couldn't finish what I ordered in the Casa de Feijoda. It would normally be $300 for 10 days. The website for my apartment is [url]www.telefonema.net.[/url]
The Brazilian chick I hooked up with made me forget the problems associated with American women. I wish I could stay down there for the rest of my life. Oh well, there is always retirement and vacations to Brazil and I highly doubt that there is a non-racist American woman that would hook up with me and tie me down to America anyway. [/i][/QUOTE]

Doesn't this belong in the Brazil forum?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jak
[i]I do see the "suspicious" nature of AW women to be a separate quality from their emotional distance, since, as you stated with your trips back to Russia, Russian women do not seem to have a fear of going with men anywhere, even after knowing them for one hour. [/i][/QUOTE]

There are two kinds of 'suspicion' that have been receiving attention. There's the healthy suspicion that going with a stranger to his apartment might be dangerous. And there's the standard, 'I think my boyfriend is cheating on me' suspicion.

And there's also the basic suspicion of men in general and men's motives in general. That's the most common, imho, and occurs in varying degrees and intensities.

Came across this earlier today:

"When a woman behaves like a man why doesn't she behave like a nice man." Dame Edith Evans

Lenin, from your last post, I gather that what really bothers you about AW is that they are more of a challenge. They don't come right out and give you their emotional all right away, so they are emotionally handicapped?

Personally, I find the complexities more appealing. A relationship is about discovering one another. It can't all be put on the table at the start (though it's fun to put a woman on the table :)). And, I'd bet that a lot of the 'secrets' and emotions that your RW share are not all that secret, nor all that genuine as you are led to believe.

My opinion is that RM (or at least you) are handicapped and have a hard time dealing with complex relationships.

JZ, yeah. That certainly comes into play as well. If you take some of the proclamations of poster's like Lenin and Virgin_Terr as truths then that suspicion is justified. I mean, if women are only with us because of our money or position then we must constantly be suspicious that she has found someone with more money or a better position.

Likewise, women tend to believe that we're only with them because they look good or are good in bed. Hence they are always suspicious of us finding someone better looking or more of a sexual dynamo.

Darkseid,

Thanks for the additional information on the ins and outs of hotels in Rio. This is starting to crystalize for me. It also sounds like Rio has much to offer in addition to hot women.

Caught your detailed report on the South America/Rio forum. Looks like 4X4 is for me too. Well done.

The whole Rio scene seems soo foreign and alien to an American guy. I have to get down there. It sounds even better than Prague which is my little corner of the world. Am headed there in four weeks. Wish you or some of our brethren could join me for a week of drunkeness and womanizing.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by purplengold

[i]Lenin, from your last post, I gather that what really bothers you about AW is that they are more of a challenge. They don't come right out and give you their emotional all right away, so they are emotionally handicapped?
[/i][/QUOTE]
Really bothers me about AW that they have small emotional experience and capabilities. It is even dangerous. It could bring big troubles later in relationship. I don’t mine challenge but only if women deserved it. They are not.
[QUOTE][i]
Personally, I find the complexities more appealing.
[/i][/QUOTE]
Then I understand why you like Asian.
I prefer Latin. I like openness. Life is complex enough even without women.
[QUOTE][i]
A relationship is about discovering one another.
It can't all be put on the table at the start
[/i][/QUOTE]
No, all not, but some yes.
[QUOTE][i]
I'd bet that a lot of the 'secrets' and emotions that your RW share are not all that secret, nor all that genuine as you are led to believe.
[/i][/QUOTE]
I know that. I did not say what I totally bellied in all her stories.
But lots of them were deep and genuine to feel strong connection.
[QUOTE][i]
My opinion is that RM (or at least you)
are handicapped and have a hard time dealing with complex relationships.
[/i][/QUOTE]
Purplengold are you trying to insult me or this is revenge because I don’t like AW? Well, I did wanted be rude but you Purplengold seems
have some mental problems, I hope temporary.
But I am OK, I am taking your challenge:
RM helped create RW which most of the men in the world like
AM (including you) helped create AW which nobody like
Therefore I don’t think RM or me more handicapped than AM or you
Anyway, most of the AM in this forum made great posts and I am sure
If All American men were like most of you guys,
we would change situation with AW very quickly.

AW = American Women
AM = American Men
RW = Russian Women
RM = Russian Men

What's wrong with American women is in many cases not the woman herself but this Puritanical feminist loving society. Analyzing Lenin's experiences with RW, Lenin said that when RW are in Russia, they are more open and are equipped to scope you out and would see if they can trust you. When they come to America, Lenin said that because women hold the upper hand, RW feel they can pick on AM and get away with it. They actually BECOME the AW after living here a few years. It is the way AMERICA educates women to behave that causes problems with the women here. Also my Cuban ex-fiancee is another example but you know the story by now.
While I was at Carnaval, even the American women were open and open to discussing sex. When they return to America, AW are expected to act a certain way which shows "class". They cannot discuss sex in front of men or men cannot discuss sex in front of women in American society. In fact when I got back to my office, a dirty joke slipped from my mouth because I got into the habit of speaking with sexually open people of Brazil and my co-workers reminded me that there are women around the office and about sexual harrassment laws. I responded, "Shit! I forgot that I am no longer around sexually open people." In Brazil, everyone even some of the American women talked about butts, titties, partying and screwing around. There are a few exceptions of course like the breakup I witnessed with an American couple but that was because she didn't leave her American attitude at home and didn't get into the SPIRIT of Carnaval and that spirit could have healed their relationship. America has so many laws forbidding partying and sexuality and that leads to unopenness and a lack of emotions. Sexuality opens us up because part of sexuality is love and love is blocked when we become mechanical from the strict anti-sex laws like what is happening in the US and Japan where we have the highest divorce rates and the least amount of sex. Also marriages forged from greed is from the lack of sexuality and love. Some states like Florida even want to abolish nudity or even toplessness even in INDOOR EVENTS. Bye bye Spring Break!! I hate to knock the American motto "Land of the Free", but America has become a Nazi Gestapo when it comes to sex.

darkseid, great post!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by darkseid
[i]While I was at Carnaval, even the American women were open and open to discussing sex. When they return to America, AW are expected to act a certain way which shows "class". They cannot discuss sex in front of men or men cannot discuss sex in front of women in American society. In fact when I got back to my office, a dirty joke slipped from my mouth because I got into the habit of speaking with sexually open people of Brazil and my co-workers reminded me that there are women around the office and about sexual harrassment laws.[/i][/QUOTE]
Exactly,
I’ve seen how easily AW can change their behavior in Cuba and Jamaica. After couple minutes primitive conversation with the local man (I like you baby, do you like me?) AW allow him to put his arm
on her leg.
This is what I am talking about. AW could be re-educated quite easily if man behaves like a man not like a slave. God made man to lead woman not opposite.

Lenin and Darkseid -

One of the other common complaints about AW has been their mercenary attitudes --- men = money. One of the annoying aspects of many of my dealings with women in foreign countries is that I often get the "rich" American attitude from women in various ways. I suspect the women are different in their behavior or attitude with the native men in many of these countries, but it seems that the attitude she has with an American man often has a "spend money" edge to her.
Granted, my experiences with foreign women have been a combination of pro and non-pro, whereas my experience with AW have been non-pro. Due to my being an AM and the image of being rich, along with my skewed experience of pro women in the foreign mix, I find it difficult to determine to what degree foreign women really differ from AW in this regard.
What are your thoughts?

Jak,

To find the true love in other countries being American is tough thing to do.
In Russia, for example, once they know you from US, girls who want green card and your money will surround you. And they are going to play such a game what you
will not notice their real intention. I myself, when I came to Russia, am trying not to tell that I am living in North America as long as possible. Just because of all above, because I want to see real feeling. There exists one way around however. You should invest the time to find good Russian friends. There is traditionally strong man support in Russia like not in any country in the world. They’ll guide you and help you to make right decisions.
And in Russia is much more fun and safer to hunting for the girls with the Russian friends than alone.
I used same tactic in Cuba too. It helped a lot.

In Brazil, I scope them out fist before answering the where are you from question. I ask them their occupation immediately after asking their name and what part of the city they live in. If their answer suggests they are wealthy, I tell them I live in New York. If they are poor, I am prejudiced against it because they may want to meet me for a greencard to the US so I tell them I live in China, being that I am Chinese. I always leave my pasport in the hotel room so they can't expect me to show them.
Even if they are poor, I scope them out further on a date the following day and I won't turn down some non-pro action.

Lenin and Darkseid -

Since I am very Northern European looking in my features, and I do not have fluency in any language other than American English, it is difficult to feign a "non-rich" country origin. I envy both of you in this regard.
Since both of you generally agree with my experiences as a first -world travelling man in non- first - world countries with women, how do you respond to the issue that AW are often thought of as more materialistic than many women in other countries?
I begin to doubt this claim as being a particularly strong one with AW as I continue to have experiences in foreign countries. It is not difficult for me to imagine that if I was a native Russian man living in Russia, for example, and I was the equivalent of a "middle-class" working guy, I would have the same experiences with Russian women in their interest of my "financial situation" as an average AM has with AW.
I know Lenin has remarked that it is not the same, but I have difficulty discerning the differences based on my experiences.

Jak,

I never heard that RW leave their husbands in Russia when they losing their jobs like AW do. In general RW are famous for their loyalty.
If you are hunting in tourist places in Russia, where biggest concentration of greedy women, of course, you can get result even worst then here.
You still can make good result if you planning your trip carefully.
Also depend what do you want. You want to bring RW here or keep her there and how long you want your relationship lasts?

Lenin -

Without moving too much off of the AW theme, I would answer your question regarding what I would want from a RW as being answered partially by you already. I wouldn't want to get involved in the risk of bringing one over here even if I really fell for one - as I recently did. When I finally become financially independent, I might be interested in living in Russia for an extended period. I have the Pimsleur Russian CD's and am slowly working toward the goal of spending some time in the less travelled cities. I've already mentioned in a previous post that I find the Slavic women to be the most beautiful on whole, but I will be going to Buenos Aires in a few weeks for a week and then for several months this summer (with a side trip to Brazil). Despite all the great reports on the women of B.A. and Brazil, I still don't think they will top my preference for the Slavic woman look. But hey, I like to keep an open mind.
You have mentioned on numerous occasions that RM have a stronger emotional bond with each other than AM (you claim nothing else like it in other cultures). It almost sounds like they talk and offer support to each other the same way I view women doing in general no matter what culture they are in. If AM were willing and able to adopt this RM cultural quality, do you think it would have a drastic difference in turning the "balance" back to American male/female relationships?
Also, one of the concerns that I think many posters have had regarding your advocacy of the male/female balance in the Russian world is the perceived necessity or threat of the use of violence to maintain it. What are your thoughts on this?

Iagree with Lenin in that if you go to a touristy part of the country, you will more likely meet a woman who went to the US and became exposed to the AW way. These women would know a thing or two about the dirty trick of the AW and would use it against you. I you go to a non-touristy area like Vitoria in Brazil you will meet very few women that has been to America but if you go to Rio, some of them visited America because the women in the toursty regions have the money to travel and they will to some degree act like an AW.

Jak,
Yes, man’s support could change a lot, but it is impossible to promote it here because US have completely different history and culture.
Russians went thorough hundreds of wars and used to looking
for help and get help from his friends. American opposite. They competed for money and now they compete even for AW among themselves.
in Russia word "looser" never had such dramatic meaning like here. Everybody was integrated into community.
I am beginning to realize that the best that can do AM is to make enough money, move out of US and integrate himself with less sex repressive culture.
Otherwise his future is prostitutes, loneliness and suicide.
About your last question, if you want to live in Russia I just can tell you that this is integral part of Russian culture. I am not big fun of this too, this one of the reasons why I prefer Latin to RW. If you cannot handle it, you should choose RW for LTR even more carefully because she eventually can take advantage over you
ones she sense you soft. I am curious, why you like RW, because how they look or because their personal characteristics?

[i]Otherwise his future is prostitutes, loneliness and suicide.[/i]

See, here you go again. This is just baloney, a gross generalization, just like me saying that the future of a RM is as an alcoholic, disease-infested beggar. I could come up with far more dramatic statistics to support this than you could your statement.

C'mon, you were doing so well with a real discussion! :)

Lenin -

I'll briefly answer your question first. It is mainly the Slavic look that I like, and I realized this only when I was in my twenties and had a Czech-American girlfriend. I love the skin! My other two LTR were with Polish-American women. I like sweet-natured, feminine women, and two of the three had those personalities. I just got hooked after discovering my reactions to being with those kind of women.
I love the feminine look and behavior/charm that many RW give off in their native country, and combined with the silky white skin -- ooh-la-la! But, as you have so many times confirmed, there is a wild animal waiting behind the facade. Thanks for confirming my hunches so well!
Maybe this is an appropriate time to discuss the issue that many AM have mentioned about AW being more aggressive than many foreign women. Your area of expertise being RW, I think you have again made the case that RW are not necessarily any less aggressive or manipulative than AW, but it's the Russian system that keeps them "in-line" (with a little bit of fear of the man if they get to far out-of-line).
You have on many occasions made the claim that many Latin women would behave differently/better than the average RW would if she was brought into this American system. This is maybe a good time to explore the idea of how many Latin women are somehow inherently different than RW in their propensity to be aggresive and abusive of a system that seems to give them a little more power over men.
Any thoughts on why this seems to be?

Darkseid -

I agree with your opinion. I want to begin trying to spend more time in the non-touristy areas of the countries I visit. The big drawback to this type of travel is usually the language barrier. You seem well on your way to giving it a go in Brazil with your present-tense knowledge of Portuguese, and I am in the process of working toward this with Spanish and Russian. I think you can generally crack into a whole new realm when you can converse in the native language of the country.

joe_zop,

may be you going to be surprised but I am not
is going to argue with you about RM alcoholic habits because
it is real problem in lot of cases. Same as it is real problem about loneliness of AM.
But we are here not to discuss alcoholism.
If you so perfectionist in statements, then I can change from:
Otherwise his future is prostitutes, loneliness and suicide.
To:
Otherwise future of many AM is prostitutes, loneliness and suicide.
Is it helps?

Jak, you got it absolutely right.

[QUOTE][i]

Originally posted by Jak
I love the feminine look and behavior/charm that many RW give off in their native country, and combined with the silky white skin -- ooh-la-la! But, as you have so many times confirmed, there is a wild animal waiting behind the façade
…
RW are not necessarily any less aggressive or manipulative than AW, but it's the Russian system that keeps them "in-line" (with a little bit of fear of the man if they get to far out-of-line).
[/i]

USbabe is only one AW who participated in this section:

[QUOTE]

Originally posted by USbabe

[i] I forgot who said it but someone mentioned that women are like little children and if you put up with their rotten behavior, they will keep giving it. That's it! I don't really think women are out to test guys, but if a guy doesn't put a stop to that kind of manipulative behavior, it continues. Then, the woman doesn't respect the man, and vice versa. I get the impression that some guys are afraid of losing her, so they'll put up with anything, and that's where the problem starts.
[/i]

Her statement confirms that the somthing different is waiting behind the façade of any women, not only behind the façade of RW. RM usually know about it. I think, AM sometimes forgetting this and dream about perfect women. This dream brought them into real troubles.

Lenin, it's still hyperbole. "Some" is more accurate, as it doesn't imply that it's the majority of cases, which your other statements do. It's not about being perfect in statements, it's about having the overall thrust be accurate. It's simply not close to accurate to say that most AM will end up suicidal, using prostitutes or alone, and there's no need to say it to still have your point be valid. Beyond that, it's just bashing -- and my point regarding alcoholism and RM was not at all to say that my statement was true but that it was the same kind of unnecessary exaggeration.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lenin
[i]
I am beginning to realize that the best that can do AM is to make enough money, move out of US and integrate himself with less sex repressive culture.
Otherwise his future is prostitutes, loneliness and suicide.
[/i][/QUOTE]

LOL! Let's see, since that is the stereotypical vision of RM, with vodka substituted for suicide, I guess you're speaking out your ass again.

You know, you keep trying to paint a Renoir of Russia and a Dali of America. I still wonder why it is you prefer to live here.

joe_zop,

I am not specialist in English at all but I am not thinking that MANY is wrong.
Let's assume for sake of the arguments that during Vietnam War 10% American soldier was killed. (I don’t know exact number)
It is a lot. It is many thousands.
Statement – “MANY men killed in this war” is not exaggeration at all.
Although it is only 10%. it's not the majority of all man. It is not MOST OF.
Statement - “SOME men killed in this war” is really gives you wrong idea like It was small war.
And also SOME - removes any emotions from the statement.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jak
[i]Lenin -
[b](SNIP)[/b]
Your area of expertise being RW, I think you have again made the case that RW are not necessarily any less aggressive or manipulative than AW, but it's the Russian system that keeps them "in-line" (with a little bit of fear of the man if they get to far out-of-line).
[b](SNIP)[/b]
[/i][/QUOTE]

Jak,

I'd be careful with that assumption about Lenin having any expertise about women, Russian or otherwise. It's pretty apparent from his posts that he has delusions of what RW are like. And, he absolutely can't relate to AW. It seems that he may have had some relationships with Cuban pros, but those were most likely pay for play, so they don't count.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lenin
[i]
If you so perfectionist in statements, then I can change from:
Otherwise his future is prostitutes, loneliness and suicide.
To:
Otherwise future of many AM is prostitutes, loneliness and suicide.
Is it helps? [/i][/QUOTE]

Is it me, or is your 'change' not a change at all?

purplengold,
what is nonsense you talking.
try to live in russia so many yeas like me
and don’t have experience with rw!
they just [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url] you if you are going to ignore them.

[quote]originally posted by lenin
[i]try to live in russia so many yeas like me
and don’t have experience with rw!
they just [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url] you if you are going to ignore them. [/i][/quote]

what the hell does this mean? are you saying that you are soooo hot that rw just attack you? yeah, right.

and, whether you have had experience with rw, i doubt you had solid relationships with them. you are too naive in thinking that they opened up to you so quickly. this is not human nature, american, russian, whatever. people keep secrets, that's life. and, so the girls that had you wrapped around their fingers because you thought they were so open were really just using you.

i've heard too many stories from russian friends. since joining this discussion here, i've been talking to them even more. i showed this forum to one rw friend and her husband, an rm. they both said you're full of shit. their opinion of you was that you are a lonely malcontent. they said they knew plenty of people like you back in russia--always complaining, always talking about getting out, then sending letters home about how you wish to come back once you finally do get out.

For the record, I'm not pro AW. I prefer asian women. I can't realy put my finger on the reason, but I've always been more attracted to them.

I've had relationships with AW, and do find them to be pushy, expensive and less sexually dynamic. But, they are not completely horrible.

purplengold,

First, If you are living in Russia for long time in the same neighborhood
you just can not avoid girls who going to be all time behind for you, Except if you are really looks ugly.
Seems you still not understand that it is real situation there.
You found Russian couple. Great! I know dozens of them.
Do you think husband is going to tell you true in front of his wife?
Do you think his wife not upset with my statements because she
want to hide her real nature? Do you think they telling you one
thing and after that make fun if they notice that you are naive?
I know many people who complained about everything.
Do not worry. I complains only when I am a really see bad things.
And such bad thing is American rotten sexual life.
About secret, If you know how to speak with Russians
you will be amazed their openness. Totally opposite to Asian.
And you even not bothered asking me what secrets I am talking about.
Why you so upset and rude about anything what I am saying.
Some Russian programmer kicked you in your ass or what?
Now I think you are naïve and not learning from your experience.
Or most probably you have mentality problems.
I’ve learned Psychiatry and I sense that something wrong with you.

Lenin, while you may be strictly correct that "many" doesn't say a majority, considering the way you used it -- to follow up an absolute statement like the one you first posted saying "the future [i]is[/i]" it's certainly a viable conclusion that you intend to make a far grander statement than is warranted. This is especially true when you're in the habit of making massively condemning statements about American society.

For what it's worth, despite there being a large number of men killed in Vietnam -- my friends among them -- the truth is that only about one-half percent of those who [i]served[/i] in the military during the war were killed, with less than ten percent of all men actually serving there. So while 47,000 is a large number (the approximate number killed) to imply it is anything near something that, say, stripped the country of males, would be misleading.

Similarly, earlier in this discussion we went though suicide statistics, and it's a relatively low percentage, overall, about 1% of US deaths, which, again, is a low number when you're talking about the total number of the population. Yes, everyone knows someone who's offed themselves, in the same way everyone used to know someone who was killed in Vietnam, but that's simply not the same as saying that American women condemn men (in general) to prostitutes, suicide, and loneliness.

The bottom line is that the majority of men in the United States at any given time are married. The majority do not use prostitutes. The majority do not commit suicide. I don't know of a good measurement for loneliness, but to imply it's a majority is surely to overstate the case.

Again, I think the points are very viable, and the complaints here are absolutely important and well worth looking at, but when we start descending into the land of massive overstatement all that happens is that the discussion becomes absurdly cartoonish and pointless. Being accurate in no way diminishes the validity of the concerns or deflates the discussion. I'm simply asking that we place things in the proper context.

As far as removing emotions from the equation -- I hardly think that's going to happen :) as there are far too many folks here who are highly emotional about this issue. The problem is that if it's just going to become an emoting orgy then it's not really a discussion that can move forward. It's seemed to me that the discussion in this thread has been very good of late -- and you deserve a fair portion of the credit for that -- and I think most of us would love to see that continue. So I'm simply calling for a balanced approach instead of getting unnecessarily histrionic.

What Lenin says about loneliness and suicide is more apparent in big cities than in smaller townships where people are close and know each other. However, most of the US is made up of the smaller townships rather than the big cities that is why the statistics for America as a whole is low on loneliness, suicide and prostitution. In the smaller towns, married couples tend to stay married whereas in the big cities there are more unmarried people and a much higher divorce rate. Most people in smaller towns are happily married, do not commit suicide, and do not use prostitutes, unlike their big city counterparts. I also noticed that in big cities such as New York, laws are more strict and more enforced. Stricter laws as I explained in my past posts IS a cause of the lack of passion in marriages and relationships. In smaller cities, people get away with skinny dipping whereas if you try that in Central Park with your wife, you will be sitting in a cell next to Bubba and your wife would be sitting in a separate cell next to Butch. Marriages in big cities are more money related than love related. Women expect the city guy to make more money than their small town counterparts so the ones who are after money go for the city guy. The marriages that happen in the small towns are usually high school or college sweethearts.
Suicide is more stress related rather than loneliness related. The stress can come from losing a job, divorce settlements, and many other factors other than loneliness. There are many more problems living in a big city than living in a small town.
Again, more city guys use prostitutes than country guys because of unsatified marriages, loneliness, divorce, or because they stay single. Meeting a true love in the city can be overwhelming especially if you are in a big crowd where nobody knows each other. In a small township, you meet the same people day to day and they know your business and therefore it is easier to know the girl you are dating. Sometimes a city guy might need a companion in such short notice like a date for an event so prostitutes are used for this. Remember, AW want to take their time knowing you and are not as open as foreign counterparts so because no one knows each other in a big city, it is impossible to find a short notice date if a single guy doesn't know any women. On the other hand, in a small town, just by living in the small town a few years, you already know something about the girl neighbors and they know something about you so it is easier to find a short notice date in a smaller community.

Man, have you ever LIVED in a small town in the US? Guys there don't use prostitutes because there AREN'T any. And, small towns are more conservative and life in rural America can be very lonely. Maybe you can get away with skinny dipping in a small town but if so it is because there are no other people around, unlike Central Park.

Do you really think there are more problems living in a big city and fewer living in a "small township"? I think it is just a different set of problems.

Actually, the suicide rate is higher in rural than urban areas, both for men and women, which can possibly be related to poor health care (leading to undiagnosed clinical depression) and lack of social support structures. Prostitution is simply more prevalent and available in cities than the countryside, so the opportunity to partake is greater. The truth is that more American men die from pneumonia than suicide, which might argue that if AW took better care of their men they'd know to dress warmly :D but we're not here railing about that. In the most recent comprehensive stats I found (2000) suicides represented 2% of all US male deaths, compared, to, say, 5.4% by accidents or 24.3% by cancer. And a major portion of those suicides come from either teenagers or those over 60, plus I don't think it's really possible to lay all the rest of them at the feet of the behavior of American Women.

I don't disagree at all with the rest of your post about the difficulties of life in cities, though I agree with DH that it's not necessarily a picnic in the sticks, either. And, again, I'm not at all disagreeing with the tenets of the discussion here, just trying to keep things within shouting distance of reality.

Thanks, JZ. I thought I had read that suicide was higher in rural areas but was too lazy to research it. I know that after two years of living in rural Nebraska I sure wanted to kill myself.

Here's an idea. Instead of sentencing prostitutes to 90 days in jail, sentence them to 90 days in a rural community. It would have a greater deterrent effect and would also provide valuable services to these isolated areas. A win-win situation in my book.

I used to travel a lot with my Brazilian girlfriend in
Ontario and we’ve seen a lot of small cities.
They all sooo dead.
In some cities you are lucky if after sunset you see just the dog.
But American Big Cities seems sucks too.
I was in NYC with my friend last year. We spend 3 days
going to different places at evening in Manhattan.
I just wanted get feeling of the night city.
In some places we took one or two drinks in
others just look around for few minutes.
In total we went may be in 40 bars and discos.
What I notice the girls make absolutely no eyes contacts.
Just like dead models in windows.
You are getting such unpleasant feeling especially
if you traveled before In Latin America or Russia.
I remember, in one bar men were mostly staying in one part
of the bar and women in another.
It was no any interaction between them.
Why is hell everybody came here then?
NYC looks absurd city to me.
On the one side a lot of good dressed girls clearly
to attract attention of the men,
on another no contact with the men.
In one place near from Times square I talk with
nice looking prostitute in the small café.
I still remember how two men, who
works there, stop their job, open their mouths and stare at us
like we are aliens from other planet.
Darkseid, is my first impression about NYC correct
or I missed something?
Only in Mexican Bar I felt some warm.
Eventually in Russian bar I got warmest welcome.

Lenin -

You have mentioned the issue of "emotional distance or detachment", or something resembling that effect, in several of your last posts. Women that look like "dead models in windows", a lot of well-dressed women (presumably to attract the men) without contact with the men, and " American rotten sexual life".
Do you associate these impressions you had and have with the previous issue of "AW are suspicious of men in general"? Do you think a lot of the people that you observed in the nightclub that were dressed-up but not interacting - "why is hell everybody came here then?" - were frustrated with the situation? Were the women mostly suspicious and the men knew it?
What is at the heart of these situations that apparently would be rather different if they existed in Russia?

Lenin, I totally agree with you with your description of the big cities, especially in NYC. Everyone here lives in their own little space and they don't want anything to do with other people. Every NYC person I meet in clubs are paranoid and think that you approach them because you want something from them. Even if you throw the biggest party wit hundreds of supermodels and superstars New Yorkers would still find a way to dull the party with their "personal space" attitudes. I do agree with everyone that life in the rural communities is dull and boring but at least the people in the rural communities are a bit more willing to chat with you (unless the community happens to be racist). My grandparents lived in a small community and I use to visit them every summer. My grandparents on my mother's side lived in Calgary, Alberta in Canada and everyone was friendly and knew each other. I was bored as heck though but at least I could chat with the neighbors and play ball with them. My grandparents on my father's side lived in a small town in Buffalo New York and it was a similar situation. Although there is nothing to do in these towns, I still made friends with my neighbors. My grandparents before moving into the community did meet the neighbors as part of their search for their home to make sure they are not bad or racist people. In my NYC neighborhood, people don't want anything to do with each other. Even if I try to invite them to a party they think I am some salesperson trying to push his product on them. I tried to throw a party in my NYC apartment and only my olf friends came and only 2 of my neighbors I invited came. When I threw barbecues at my grandmother's house, it was an excellent turnout because the community was more close. Perhaps I did these people a favor in giving them something to do in the boring small town (Yes, Buffalo IS a really boring town. No one can argue with that.)
JZ and DH, I also agree with you guys that prostitution not being available is a good reason country guys CAN'T use them. Most country folks also don't travel either and the ONLY woman they know are their high school sweethearts which is why there is a lower divorce rate than in urban communities. Also more country folks are alcoholics or drug users because no one is stopping them from doing it.

Jak

Your questions help me to analyzed the problem
I don’t want somebody be upset with my statements. I want just to find the root of the problem. To be completely honest we should look at ourselves too.
I notice that most of Americans not only AW hide their feeling and emotions.
Why implicit rules of society forced Americans to smile even when they want to kill each other?
I do not understand exactly why Americans doing this. Is it better for business, or religion told them to do this. May be because American was told from childhood that real gentlemen should hide feeling. I would like if somebody could explain this.
I think this is the big problem.
Hiding feeling and emotions it is just different form of lying about your internal state. How AW can trust AM and AM can trust AW if they playing this game all the time?
It is breaking normal communication between AW and AM.
Relations between men and women are based on feeling. Seems American culture
is destroying trust and emotional communication between AM and AW right from the beginning.

Lenin -

Since I have often asked many questions and put you on the "firing line", which you have courageously accepted, it's only fair I make my share of generalizations to be attacked. I've appreciated your heart-felt responses, which oftentimes put you in the position of making statements that sound attacking or simplistic.
I have noticed that Americans "openness" is often related to regionalism. I live in the largest Midwestern city in the U.S. It has often been remarked that it is an incredibly friendly city for its size. I never gave it serious thought until I moved to a city in the Northwestern U.S. for many years. People in this new city and region had an etiquette, but it sure took a long or longer time to get a feeling of closeness with most people. I actually found the people I was befriending to be transplants from other areas of the country. There was a very provincial air about the region.
In the Southern U.S., most people have experienced "Southern hospitality" when they've travelled this region. Since I feel you really have to live and breathe in an area for at least a few years before you can have a genuine sense of it, I still oftentimes have believed that this friendliness is also more of an etiquette than genuineness of interaction.
I think one of the common stereotypes that many Europeans (West and East) have of Americans is the "phoniness" which we often present upon meeting for the first time. I have heard this repeatedly from Germans, Danes and Polish people - and they were often speaking for the impressions of other Europeans. Russians seem to never smile at strangers. If you do, it should only be for flirtatious reasons with the opposite sex.

Hi!!

I'm a guy from Barcelona (Spain), so, my level of english isnt the best...excuse me for that.

Well, I write here because Im very surprised with most of the mails that you have sended, about the shitty AW!
I explain you why I have this impression.
When I studied at the University, every year existed a colaboration between Universities of all Europe, and USA also. So, every new course you found a lot of people from diverent countries. We (well, I and a lot of men) waited with emotion how many american women were there! Why? For the simple reason that american girls were the easiest to convince to fuck!! Sure! Every girl maybe fucked 5 o more boys during the year (2 of them were my rates). They loved sex, well....maybe to stay with the most number of cool latinos, I dont know, and when they returned to USA, explain it to their friends!
So, thats the reason for my surprise! Maybe AW when they are out of their ultraconservativ country changed their mind, and want to be happy and feel free!!
AW even they were more sexual opened than nordic girls (Sweden, Danmark, for ex.).
Every year whe are fooled looking for american pussy!!!

It seems that Americans in general fear each other more than many people from European countries fear each other. I notice this in my travels to many countries, and perhaps I am naive in my assumptions since "they" obviously know I am American and perhaps "trust" me more for some unknown reason to me.
When I was travelling by train from Budapest to Romania, I met a woman who was coming back from two months in Italy. She invited me to visit her home several days later to stay with her husband and two small children. I ended up staying with them for a week. Nobody did background checks on each other, etc. It was a nice visit with them driving me around the countryside and stopping to have meals at their parents' places, etc. I have had other experiences like this in Europe and have known many others who have similar stories. Of course, upon telling these stories upon my arrival back in America, I am frequently told I was crazy for doing this. What if... questions of a dangerous nature abound. This stuff just doesn't go on in America like that. I'm sure Europe has its' horror stories, but the fear level of strangers seems so much lower.
You can even see this in something like calling an escort in many places of Europe. The girl arrives and comes into your place, and that's it. There's no - give me your credit card #, Guido will be at the girl's side, etc.
This isn't getting at the core discussion of why America seems so much more aloof, but I'm just trying to make sense of some of my impressions first.

incaroca -

I think you gave many of the reasons these AW were so sexually free and open.
A part of choosing to study in your country was to have free sexual experiences with "cool Latin males"(many AW like the image of the Latin European male), they were in college (one of the best sex environments I experienced in my life), they were away from their puritanical homeland and fear of the "****" label (similar to the freer behavior I have experienced with AW at vacation resorts - when they know their behavior will be secret and not affect their social or business world back home).

(As always, my opinions are understood to be generalities, and hopefully will not be used as a launching pad for a diatribe of my simplistic or idiotic thinking. Hopefully, they will be used to move in the direction of exploration of the topic on this string of the forum.)

AW as I explained in a previous post about them in Brazil, do act more freely because they are away from this puritanical environment. American culture ENCOURAGES unopenness by labelling such sexual conversations as "shameful". "Shame" is the curse that infests American culture and unfortunately, our media and some evangelist groups born in America want to spread the disease of "Shame". The Carnival trip opened my eyes to this problem in that now I don't blame the AW themselves but I blame our system of etiquette influenced by the concept of "Shame". This is definitely apparent in big cities and small towns in different scenarios. In big cities in America, no one knows each other so no one talks to one another because ALL Americans were taught not to talk to strangers. In fact it is "shameful" for AW to go home with a stranger the first night they meet and she would be labelled a "****". In a smaller town, although an AW is more willing to meet a new face, she still wouldn't have sex until she gets to know him for several weeks or until marriage because news travels swift in a small ton and she is afraid of being labeled a "*****". In both scenarios, the concept of "shame" is apparent. Also the parents of the AW look at meeting a guy from a nightclub as "shameful".
Place these same AWs in a sexually liberal environment like Brazil or Europe and they will be fucking like rabbits because they figure that no one will know what happened on that trip.

Jak,

Your impressions that Americans in general fear each other more than many people from European countries fear each other are similar to my impressions.
One of my first jobs was not in the city and I didn’t have car in that time.
Almost every day I used to hitchhike on my back from the job.
Mostly immigrants from Europe gave me ride.
I still remember short but warm conversations with Greece, Italy, Spain, and Polish drivers. Very rare when Canadians gave me ride and communication mostly was tense with them.
Your comments that Russians seem to never smile at strangers
right at some extend. If they not smile at you, it’s mean that you not convinced them they can trust you. Fake smile and politeness never were part of Russian culture. Don’t expect it in return.
Best way to communicate with Russians is to show them your true feeling ignoring
any etiquette. If you are too polite they think you are hiding something and they not going to trust you. Probably for Americans it can take time to accustom to this. But once you get it you are going to be like fish in the water and make genuine friends very fast.
I am still convinced that root of problems with AW is that Americans traditionally hide their feeling and as result lose the ability emotionally communicate properly among themselves, become afraid everybody and confused with stranger.
They lost emotional mechanism to evaluate the stranger.
To make things worth, in order to substitute normal emotional communication Americans had to accept sexually repressive models of behavior, which government and religious and other groups happy to promote.
Many nationalities do not need to accept such models because people there are happy with their emotional behavior and trust themselves.
Closest example is Montreal. As result you can find women there with best attitude in North America.
Jak, If your impression about genuine Southern U.S hospitality is correct, then according to my theory it should be no big difference in attitude of AW there in comparison with others states.

I do agree American men are taught to hide their feelings. I do not agree that Europeans are more open than Americans. In fact I think the opposite based on my experience in mostly northern and western European countries. Spain is an exception in my experience. In countries such as Belgium, The Netherlands, France, Germany, and Austria, I found the locals somewhat suspicious and unwilling to strike up conversations with strangers. This goes for women as well as men. Exceptions have occurred when alcohol was involved.

Tonight I had a conversation with an American female friend and she said she preferred the company of her men friends (such as me). I said I also preferred the company of my women friends (such as her). This is all sex aside. We hypothesized that it was competition among women and their women friends, and competition among men and their men friends, that might be leading to this result. I know I am a very competitive person and over the years this has resulted in some bad blood between me and my male friends, whereas this is not an issue between me and my female friends.

Also I am aggressive and so my approach to women is somewhat aggressive so maybe it works better in countries where the man is supposed to be the aggressor, such as Latin America and Asia. As posters such as Darkseid have remarked, we Americans get such mixed messages about sex that it is hard to know when to push the envelope and when to back off.

I always say, I have a low batting average and I strike out a lot but I take my cuts and I hit my share of home runs. I think maybe American women feel like they need to take fewer swings and make better contact, cuz of that whole ridiculous s l u t thing. Also I don't think American women know how to flirt very well, which might be part of the whole "don't talk to strangers" thing. I didn't get that growing up.

Dickhead ,
Could be that they (North West European) are more open to each other but less open to foreigners since Europeans had a lot of internationality problems before?

While I agree the American tendency to be "nice" as a default social veneer also can lead to a kind of fake and insular distance, I think it's a mistake to blame it entirely for lack of communication. The bottom line is that it's part of a social dance like any other, and if one knows how to dance the dance, one does reasonably well. It's simple enough to figure out when someone's giving a nice polite fake response and when there's some genuine warmth involved. That's the way the game is played -- and the mistake non-natives make is going overboard, from the "everyone is friendly" perspective to the "everyone is fake and distant" one. The truth is, as usual, in between.

Let's face it -- this is still basically a country filled with people displaced from somewhere else, where a lot of them have tried to recreate the social structure they lost, and part of what's been recreated is suspicion of people outside your ethnic arena. Here, that has translated not only the neighborhoods where people of similar ethic groups tend to live together in an attempt not only to retain their ethnic identity but to be socially comfortable, and also into direct racism that shifts and becomes more complex depending on who the latest large immigrant group happens to be. It has also created a strange kind of dual sense of nationality, where you're American but you also consider yourself German or Irish or African or whatever in spite of the fact that your ancestors haven't lived in said home country for, say, a hundred and fifty years, and you and your parents were not only born here but really know squat about the father/motherland.

But I also think there are other aspects that need to be considered. Beneath that so-called openness in Europe, Russia, and elsewhere is also a simmering hostility toward other ethnic groups and a litany of centuries of grievances, and this manifests itself not only in war but in astonishing brutality toward people who yesterday were your "neighbors." Or have we forgotten that the ethnic cleansing activities and conflicts in Bosnia, Serbia, Chechnya, the Middle East, Ireland, Rwanda and Burundi, Sri Lanka, etc. (all of which are recent or ongoing -- I could cite another massive list just by going back a couple of years) are all grounded in very long historical discord between groups, some stretching back a thousand years? Great -- strong personal warmth and then a pitchfork stuck in you as soon as it seems there is an opportunity.

Perhaps, picking up on Lenin's comment about NW Europeans being open to each other but not to foreigners, the problem is that Americans have no idea who is and who is not an outsider, and the cultural truth is that we're all natives and outsiders at the exact same time.

part of the reason why there is the segregated neighborhoods and racism is the don't talk to strangers concept and "shame". most marriages in a big city like new york with segregated areas only happen within their own little neighborhoods. for example, if i go into spanish harlem, i get stares from the people living in that neighborhood as though i was an alien from another planet. if i hook up with one, news gets around and they would disapprove of it. it seems that inter-racial marriages is a big deal in america and in some cases it is "shameful" because the person involved in it is bringing in an "outsider". we still have this problem in america today and i don't see many interracial couples in public. in fact, this happened with my ex-fiancee in which her friends didn't like me because i was asian so they tried to teach her ways to ditch me.
this form of racism is as jz pointed out apparent in countries with a history of factions and war. the middle eastern countries don't have an mixed marriages with isrealites. such acts are also "shameful" to them. also a women's naked body is "shameful" so they cover them up with from head to toes in burques. whereever "shame" is taught there is intolerance and prudity. no shame is taught in brazil so there is no prejudice nor prudity. some european countries have much less shame than america and i see much more interracial marriages there and a lot less prudity than here in america.
as for the lack of communication within races, "shame" also plays a part because women are looked down upon for being too easy and breaking the rule, "don't talk to strangers". her friends and co-workers immediately spread the word that she would do ayone on 2 legs. it is american nature to gossip and that is why we have such tabloid papers and shows as the upn's i-team or the inquirer which tries to throw dirt on everything they see including amsterdam's rld and thailand's "****d" prostitutes.

Here is just one fact from Canadian history for discussion.
French men immigrants mixed with native women when they came
in North America hundreds years ago. English men didn’t mix.
Spanish and Portuguese in South America mixed too.
Seems "don't talk to strangers" attitude was not developed here
but originally was brought here from England.
Somebody have any thoughts about it?

well, given that a portion of the history of the united states (and a lot of prevailing attitude) came from the puritans, who were english, and who left england seeking religious freedom because they wanted to be [i]more[/i] repressive, that shouldn't be all that surprising. (very nice, albeit strange, book on this by william carlos williams called "in the american grain.") to respond to lenin's point, a great deal of that intermingling depended a lot on geography -- there tended to be fewer cities and people in canada, and thus fewer options. in similar situations in the states, such as frontierland out west, you saw a lot more intermarriage with native americans. but i'd agree that the english immigrants, in general, were less likely to mix. perhaps that's because england was the dominant empire of the times, so going outside the nationality was considered a social step down. given the puritans' general intolerance of differences in general i don't think it's very strange that they didn't move outside of their own circles.

my first girlfriend back in junior high in the late 60s was african american, and you'd have thought i was signing up to burn cities (which was going on at the time, so i guess it was in some ways a bit understandable) from the reaction of not only friends but school administration. my family was actually fairly cool about it, probably because i wasn't talking about marrying anyone. the girl got the same reaction, probably more virulently, from her peers and family. (all of which probably kept us together longer, of course.) at that point in time, marrying someone from another race was actually illegal in mroe than a dozen states. (the last such law was removed in alabama three years ago...)

in truth, there's far more intermarriage between ethnicities in the states than there were only thirty years ago, and while it can still brings the responses darkseid describes, it's also socially more acceptable than in the past. in 1960 there were about 149,000 mixed-race marriages with one white or black partner, and in 1990 close to ten times that amount, and it's continued to rise. overall, the numbers are far higher, as blacks and whites are least likely to move outside of their races. the stats i've seen on mixed interracial or ethnic marriages and relationships in the us say it's been very much on the rise -- going from about 0.4% in 1960 to about 7% now, with unmarried couples up in the 15% range. (the latest census was the first to really analyze unmarried couple makeup.) most likely to marry outside of their race, to come full circle to lenin's question, are native americans, with some estimates saying only about 25% will marry another.

whether this has anything to do with americans' tendency toward lack of social openness is anyone's guess. interestingly, one study i saw said that the most likely place for mixed-race couples to hook up is at work, which given the workplace situation these days says a lot...

it's ironic the way america turned out and more repressive we have become. americans tried to fight taxation with the boston tea party by throwing over tea because it is taxed, yet our federal government sets up the irs and is now collecting taxes from us. we were supposed to be able to bear arms to protect ourselves, yet in most states guns are illegal. what ever happened to free speech and press? apparently, it is free for prudes only and us commonfolks cannot show pornography or curse on the air. instead prudes are free to sensor us, that's the kind of freedom america gives us, freedom for all prudes and religious groups. we also get thrown in jail for public nudity, brothel ownership, and our legal age to drink, smoke or see porn is higher than some countries. (the age is 16 in brazil but here it is 21).
i would disagree that we are the leaders of freedom but i would agree we are not the most repressive. the middle east or china is more repressive than this. i would place the usa in the middle ranking when it comes to the most free country in the world. it certainly has less freedom than some third world oreuropean countries. heck, even england or canada can show a nude scene or two without being edited. i saw a few nude senes on public televisoion even on primetime in both these countries. we have got to be the most sexually repressed country second to the middle east on this planet.

Actually, I don't know of any other countries other than some provinces of Canada that have drinking ages as high as 21. Of course, alcohol is more or less totally illegal in some Islamic countries so it could be worse, I guess.

However, there are no states in which guns are "illegal." There are many states where the ways and places in which you can carry them are restricted.

Yesterday in my state, a 12 year old kid was killed playing with a rifle. He was at his friend's house, the parents were not home, and they apparently left a loaded gun accessible. Bummer.

Darkseid, DH, etc.,

Do you guys know if anyone in academia has ever actually studied the origin and development of sexual ethics and values in American? I agree that it's a very strange phenomenon.

I read once that many of our backward attitudes towards human sexuality originated in England during the reign of Queen Victoria. Hence, the term "Victorian Ethics." These attitudes then "emigrated" over here in the late 1800's. However, having been to the UK many times I've found women there to be far more mature and liberated than their American cousins in terms of sexual attitudes and acceptance. I don't know. What are your thoughts???

I enjoyed reading all the great posts that came out of the exploration of the "Americans hide their feelings and emotions" or "AW are suspicious of men in general" or something to this effect discussion.
It seems that most posters agree that America's provincial history probably has a lot to do with the lack of "openness" that Americans seem to present. The puritanical tradition would seem to support a "Christian etiquette" in dealing with others, while at the same time would support restraint in the expression of feelings - especially sexual ones. The history of sex as being only for procreation, as being "dirty" and sinful, would seem to play a part in an AW's mind today. This would seem consistent with the "culture of shame" that Darkseid expressed. It would seem to explain why AW have often been experienced to be open sexually when they are removed from this culture and feel fairly certain that their "sinful behavior" will not be revealed.
It was also an interesting perspective of our American society by JZ when he stated that "Americans have no idea who is and who is not an outsider, and the truth is that we're all natives and outsiders at the same time". I think to the degree that this is a true operating mindset for many Americans, it would have a lot to do with the "suspicious" or "non-open" impressions that many experience in our culture.

One of the interesting things that I have noticed regarding the "s l u t" label in America - it seems that many/most women are more fearful of this label being thrown at them by other women. I began to wonder about this after I first heard the expression "Women dress for other women, but they undress for men". Women live in a rather "catty" world much of the time, and I have had many women agree with or easily understand the quote above when I have mentioned it to them.
I also do not understand the "fear" factor that AW seem to display more than women in other cultures. I'm talking about that fear that AW have of a man they do not know - "is he a serial-killer" kind of thinking. I do not think this fear is as prevalent in many other cultures - but it may be partially explained by Lenin's remarks that AW are so "emotionally detached" that they have lost the ability to "test" a man in a relatively short period of time like the RW that he used for an example.

Perhaps in addition to the concept of shame, our government has become ass-kissers to those prudes that complain that there is "too much sex" on TVs or American society in general. Our politicians feel that they have to please everyone including those old haggy prudes, and with advanced medicine, there is unfortunately a growing number of them and therefore more votes against porn. I don't mean to place the blame on old ladies but a majority of the prudes are old ladies and advanced medicine keeps these old haggards alive to complain about sex. Our politicians therefore make laws forbidding sex because they want to get the votes of these increasing numbers of old hags. In England, there is a monarchy which in my opinion works in favor of porn and sex, if the monarch themselves are sexually liberal. The monarchy doesn't have to worry about votes or doesn't have to answer to old complaining prude hags and goats that are against sex. I think Queen Elizabeth II is very mature about sex, much more mature than these old crows we have here in America that vote against sex and have an increasing amount of power with their growing numbers. This is why England is more sexually mature than Americans. Guys, don't think this threat is not real, IT IS! And these old crows that hate sex are non-working old ladies who are retired and have nothing better to do than to pick on the sex industry and instill "shame" on us. They also have the time to vote because they don't go to work. Also we don't talk about sex in front of our mothers because we fear that mother think that that type of discussion is inappropriate and taboo. When it comes to sex, no one is open with each other. Even our fathers aren't open with their sons about it either. We had to learn it from the streets which is no good way to learn and yes, it does lead to consequences such as experimentation and teen pregnancy.

I really rather doubt you can low the credit/blame for sexual attitudes in England at the feet of the monarchy, which is at this point basically a parasitic figurehead. If you're going to do that, you should probably be arguing about the liberalizing effect of Hollywood, which generally doesn't seem to have done all that much. And I think the "old lady" argument is a smokescreen -- how did all those old ladies get the way they are? (Not to mention that there are some pretty bawdy old broads out there -- for many age has meant a liberalization of attitude, as they simply don't care about conforming any more.) Most of the attitudes and laws we're talking about are long-standing in American society, and are deeply ingrained in the psyche.

Let's face it, there is and always has been a very strong "anti-pleasure" strain in the US, which says that anything that simply feels good must be bad for you, or at the very least a waste of time and money. Perhaps some of this comes from the frontier history, where the failure to get the necessary firewood, food, or protection could literally mean death. The frontier spirit is generally not exactly one which glorifies having a good time -- it's about carving out ownership of land as a way of generating wealth, with wealth equalling freedom. The American animal defines success by accumulation, and is driven by the religion of capitalism which preaches the same thing. (Not to mention the various actual religious with similar preachings.) This manifests itself not only in materialistic women, but in materialistic men who worry about being taken advantage of by materialistic women, as past postings in this thread have evidenced.

I think the suspicious nature of Americans comes from a variety of places. Every parent in this culture teaches their children not to talk to strangers, and has done so for countless years. They're considered to be bad parents if they don't do this. Why, when we become adults, should this training suddenly wear off? We are also in an environment absolutely saturated with media that plays up violence of all kinds (because it sells) and makes folk heroes of serial killers. (Is there another country that has a "Mass Murderer Hall of Fame" or sells T-shirts with serial killers on them?) And, of course, heroes such as Ted Bundy are charming seeimingly normal people, which drives home the point that anyone could be a psychopath, including the person right next to you who you think you've known for years. Again, why would this not have an effect on personal relationships?

Excitement in the US is defined in terms of fear and the forbidden, not pleasure. The natural reaction to fear is withdrawal, as opposed to pleasure, which is about seeking closeness. We play up and glorify violence, and everyone wants to see it but no one obviously wants to be a victim of it. So the reaction to that is to gawk but not get involved. Thus we are a nation of voyeurs -- we watch but are suspicious of participation. There's a quote by someone, I forget who, that says, "Television is more interesting than people. If it weren't we'd have people standing in the corners of our rooms." Amen.

jz, you make great points in your arguments. we are a nation of workaholics and materialists. i notice that my peers that don't travel spend all their money on material pleasures such as food, televisions, houses, and some spend a lot on their cars as though it's more important than a wife. we spend nothing on bodily pleasures like sex because bodily pleasures are illegal in this country. and the more material we have, the more we have to worry about like car thefts, divorce, burglary, etc. we spend more time worrying about making money to buy more things and protecting the things we already have that we neglect ourselves. some of us become overweight because we don't exercise because all of our energy goes to materials. they also figure that they don't have to look good because they aren't trying to meet the sexiest sex partner but they just want to accumulate and buy more stuff and make more money to buy stuff. there's nothing wrong with making money and owning things but being obsessed with it is what's wrong with american society and what makes us neglect our sex lives. this is what i also notice about sci-fi geeks. they spend all their time and money collecting and paying for very expensive star trek or star wars memorabilia that they have no time or money to move out of their parent's basement nor do hey have money to travel. and one of them is my co-worker who makes the same $70k a year a i do yet he cannot travel, why, because he spends thousands of dollars on star trek stuff which brings us back to american materialism. those that spend all their money on their cars or other material things have the same bug but to a lesser degee than the sci-fi geek.
i also agree that we are a nation of voyeurs. this explains why more than half of all americans are overweight and out of shape. most of us spend a third of our day watching tv and watching others do what we would like to do. instead of doing skateboarding, basketball, baseball, martial arts, gymnastics, skiiing, etc, we rather sit in front of the tv and watch others do it. it is a more comfortable lifestyle that way instead of spending hours praticing and being good at what we would have liked to do. well this is a curse casted upon american society. they end up being nobodies. i for one hated being like the average american and since i loved martial arts, i didn't just sit back and watch it on tv. i enrolled in the usa shaolin temple kung-fu school and practiced for 3 days a week to actually do what i loved. this same situation describes our sex lives. the porn industry is a multi-billion dollar industry and since sex is illegal in the usa, people watch others do sex. for some of us, we are thrusted upon just watching porn and not getting laid. having sex with aws is very difficult so we have nothing better to do than to fantasized about it with porn. most of us cannot afford to travel and fuck foreign women so those of us in this situation are also forced into this. and as i mentioned, some of us spend all of time and money on material things and run out of money to travel. but some of us travel and for the rest of the time between trips, we don't get much action in the usa so we end up just watching porn. i respect people on this board who take the time and money to travel if they can't get any action in america even if they are married to a prude. they are more like the athletes that actually want to participate in the sport and do so.

Thanks JZ for good overview of history.
You showed clearly that Puritanism added one of the biggest negative parts to the
problem and Darkseid’s "culture of shame" is logical results of this problem.
Jak, you made excellent summary and yesterday I myself became victim
of that you are talking about.
My new RW girlfriend told me that she feel shame every Sunday when she go to Canadian Baptist church because now she think it is sin that we are having sex.
She never had such kind of problems before.
F*ck, this North American system can beat you unexpectedly from any angle.
Sometimes I think why are women so stupid?
Why they easily accept all this puritanism, feminism and other crap?
If you look in Stone Age - Hunter-man could survive even if his society rejects him, woman couldn’t survive.
Man could afford to go against society opinion, woman not.
Therefore women more willing to follow the rules of society does not matter how stupid this rules could be.
Jak, It also can explain why many/most women are more fearful of this label(s l u t) being thrown at them by other women. They afraid others women more than men because others women more loyal to the system than men. (They more were afraid to be thrown out from the Stone Age cave than the men)
About "fear" factor of AW.
A also think AW need to compensate theirs emotional communication shortage with man by watching TV which is in many cases shows men like criminals. Seems American TV dangerous not only for children but for AW as well.

JZ - I have to complement you on your last post - I found it to be thoughtful and eloquent. I actually printed it out to reflect on a little later.
I do feel inclined to emphasize the role that the puritan thinking has on our culture. Lenin's recent and timely example with a current RW really hit home. It seems that shame is a very strong cultural trait in our society and is quite insidious (seemingly more powerful of an influence on women). Lenin, I'll have to think a little more about the Stone Age argument you present. Whatever the merits of your argument going back this far in history, I would have to agree that women in general seem to be a little more concerned with staying within the norms of society.
I have also wondered about the "child-centered" argument many men make about AW. This was first made clear to me when a girlfriend of mine in my mid-twenties talked about the pictures on the desks of the ladies in her office (she worked in a larger office with mostly females). She laughed when she talked about how a woman with a boyfriend or new husband would have a big picture on her desk or under the clear plastic in the middle of her desk. When the first child arrived, the husband's picture would get moved off to the side or a smaller picture would replace it. When a second child arrived, the husband would almost always disappear. The implication of this is symbolic of the place the man has in the eyes of his wife.
Is this phenomenon, or what it seems to represent, typical of most women around the world in relation to the husband in their life? Or is this more of a particular to our American culture?

I think that women of all ethnic and cultural backgrounds will put the children in front of the husband if and when it comes to that. Perhaps women from different cultures will do this to different degrees, but I think it is pretty universal. I think it is probably natural as well; the children came FROM them whereas the husband only came IN them.

Well put, DH, I completely agree.

Seems our discussion most advanced in whole internet.
I made searches and could find anything similar.
I mean comparison women
from different cultures based on different criteria.
We are made a lot of analyses. May be based on our previous discussions it is time
to start think how and in which areas is possible to improve situation with AW?
JZ, is anybody before had some ideas about it on this forum?

I'd say that discussion on making things improve have been pretty thin here, actually. They've generally fallen into a couple of main categories:

1. Change the legal situation surrounding marriage so that it doesn't "favor" women. (This was pretty much a firestorm discussion, I'd say, with little positive outcome.)

2. Have men change their own attitudes and behavior toward AW. (Again, rather a firestorm discussion that tended to devolve into a blame game.)

3. Forget it, it's not going to improve, time to look elsewhere.

Looking at change here tends to lead to more personal testimony or complaint and gets off track, and there are also few people here who actually offer a positive model. Those who do are often either a) condescending about it or b) are handed their lunch. Either way, this kind of discussion in the past has pretty invariably ended up devolving into personal attack. But the recent discussion here has had a pretty minimal amount of that, so maybe we'd have better luck tackling it again.

It is very logical to move in the direction of discussing "how and in which areas is it possible to improve our situation with AW." The easy way, and the way which many men seem to feel here, is to give up on them and forget them - accept looking elsewhere. While I generally feel the same way, I do have an interest (for whatever reason) in exploring the issues relating to AW (and how they are similar and/or different from other women) or I wouldn't be here.
If JZ's "main categories" are rather accurate, it would seem that a focus on #2 would be the more interesting. While a small number of guys like us can talk about a "cultural and legal revolution" (#1)in this country, I just don't think that I have that much desire or energy to realistically move a country in that direction. That would leave #3, in which case we could probably ask Jackson to remove this thread from the forum.
With #2 in mind, one of the interesting weekly articles I enjoy checking in on is "Doc Love" on the site www.askmen.com. All of his past articles that respond to "questions?" written in are archived. He's a politically incorrect Dear Abby that focuses on guys. It has the general focus of the #2 (men change their own behavior and attitudes toward AW).
I have enjoyed exploring the recent compare/contrast of AW with other women from other cultures. It's always good to have someone from another culture to give their firsthand impressions. Narratives and personal stories can be helpful to support arguments, since research only shows correlations by definition and never proves anything. I think the idea is to have some balance.
Well, with all this said, I'm ready to forget AW for the next week. I'm leaving for Buenos Aires in an hour and am looking forward to experiencing the women of that particular culture for the first time.

Ah, hey, that's just [i]my[/i] impression and summation of things in this thread -- by all means, if someone else sees it differently, please correct me!

In order to change the problem of laws favoring AW, we have to be the majority vote to send a bill to Congress to amend the divorce laws. However, we are only a drop in the bucket (so many men in America are complacent about it and are blind to this problem including the happily married men and don't see the problem like we do.) We cannot outvote the feminists and prudes that favor these divorce laws because they outnumber us. That is the problem with democracry. Politicians have to be people pleasers so since there are so many feminists in America, they rule America. If you want to avoid spoiled women, I would take Jak's advice and go elsewhere. Forget America, and it's spoiled women. It's a no-win battle. Some foregin men like Lenin and even my foreign co-workers from the Phillipines see this problem and don't get involved with American women. They decided to spend 5 to 10 years here in America and take their earnings back home with them. In fact one of my former co-workers from the Phillipines quit after he worked in my office for 10 years and kept complaining that American women are snotty and decided to go back to the Phillipines with the money he saved to get married. He is now back in the Phillipines happily married with 3 kids. He also found the same type of job BUT makes only 1/3 the amount he made in Verizon. However, the standard of living is a lot cheaper which compensates for the lost income. He also saved a lot of US dollars to live like a king in the Phillipines. I wish I met this guy earlier because I knew him for just 3 years. If I saved all my money I would have been able to make a run from America by now.

darkseid, I am agree.
I wonder however how gays in US managed to get right legislation and respect in spite they are minority?
Darkseid, I am curious about Brazilians in NYC.
Did you try to find Brazilian women in NYC.? They have big Brazilian community there.
One more cultural phenomena I found here which
does not exist in Russia or in Brazil for example as I know.
A lot of songs in which man humiliates himself in front
of his woman or crying. Seem such songs are quite popular here.
It is so embarrassing and shocking to hear.
Holly shit! If it is already cultural then you can do nothing about it.
Unfortunately I am not very well in listening English
songs. If somebody remember can he, please, print
such text with names of the songs and authors.

A majority of people voting in favor of gay rights are NOT gay and they feel sorry for gays because they are persecuted, beaten, or killed for WHO they are. I for one support their rights to live as people in America because I hate bigotry of any kind. Being persecuted for the way you are is not a pleasant thing and I face that as an Asian guy. It is the NON-gay people that fight for their rights as equals in America.
On the other hand, NO one sympathizes with the divorced man in America. People are taught that the divorced man deserves to be screwed and that he brought it upon himself to be taken to the cleaners. That is why there is such a high suicide rate among divorced men in America. People don't vote in favor of these poor men like they would vote in favor of gay rights. Divorced men have no one to back them up and that is why divorce laws are fucked up the way they are. Women tend to get more sympathy than men in the sad situation of divorce. They play the victim and the courts favor them. They also get sympathy in general. All they have to do is cry and people give into their demands to make her happy. If divorced men cry, they are looked upon as crybabies and people tell them to grow up and accept their losses. This aspect repels me to the prospect of marriage.
Actually, Lenin, I involve myself with the Brazillian community in New York City by taking capoeira which is a brazillian dance martial arts. Unfortunately, the ones that were born here have learned the ways of shame. They also make you wait for sex. The ones that come from Brazil are less into shame and are more willing to have sex. However, my relationship with one was cut short because she wanted to sleep with as many different guys as she could and yes there is more guys than women in NYC so she was like a kid in a candy store.

Let's keep in mind that gays are still far from equal here -- there's still plenty of hate and discrimination. (Think of "don't ask/don't tell" and the brouhaha over gay athletes.) It's also worth noting that the changes in laws and general acceptance are fairly recent.

DS, again I think the suicide stats are a bit misleading. While divorced men have higher suicide rates, so do divorced women (though there is also one major study disputing this), and so do widowed men. Never-married men also have higher suicide rates than married men (higher even than married men in Australia), and are twice as likely to die at a younger age than married men. There are plenty of studies that show that there are many other health problems for those who live alone -- higher rates of heart disease and strokes, higher rates of death among smokers, pneumonia, being under psychiatric care, etc. Cripes, even your odds of being in a fatal auto accident are substantially higher if you're single! Same thing is true with alcoholism and drug abuse (though widowed women, paradoxically, have very low rates on these compared to everyone else.) By and large, all these things hold for both sexes, though rates tend to be higher for men (heck -- what death statistic isn't?)

This stuff is true not only in the US but elsewhere, and would indicate that being alone is what is hard on people, not exclusively how they get to be that way. If anything, these things would seem to be an argument that, for our own health, we should all just put up with a higher level of female bullshit! :D

Obviously, the reason single men have higher probablilities of dying in car wrecks is because married men's wives won't let them go anywhere. And obviously married men have lower suicide rates because if you don't divorce the ***** before you blow your brains out, she gets half your money. Wouldn't want that.

darkseid you have good point here.
I think It is also were more easy for gays because
their rights don’t challenge directly somebody else rights.
gays did compete directly with women’s rights.
That is why probably gays got more support.
Man's rights are direct challenge to woman
Therefore women are not going to give them away without the fight.
I think it is going to be even worst.
I think if the American man are not going to change his attitude toward the woman, we are going to get even into bigger troubles.
For example, just few years ago Canada introduced the new low promoted by feminists which even more increasing alimony after divorce.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by darkseid
[i]In order to change the problem of laws favoring AW, we have to be the majority vote to send a bill to Congress to amend the divorce laws. [/i][/QUOTE]

Actually, the divorce laws haven't changed much over the years to favor women. It's the interpretation of those laws by judges that really sways things. Over time, interpretation swings pro-male to pro-female. Right now it's pretty much pro-female. But, believe it or not, it's more pro-male than it was 10-15 years ago.

Purplengold,

If it is interpretation that changes, then it must be the judges that vary from state to state. In NYC, a majority of the ex-wives get MORE than half of the husband's income in alimony and child support. In california, it is a clear cut HALF of the salary and wealth. I am not sure of some other states but I guess they might be less pro-female than NYC and California which sucks for divorced males.

Laws themselves have by and large been gender-neutral for a long time, mostly since the Supreme Court ruled in the late 70s that alimony laws that only awarded to wives violated equal protection of the law. I've read that in terms of child support, men are actually less likely than women, if they have custody, to receive what they're supposed to get (though of course that may very well be because they don't pursue it for a variety of reasons.)

This is an interesting issue, but so far it seems mostly anecdotal -- does anyone know a source for good stats on distribution of resources in divorce? It would be nice to get a good overview of where things truly stand; better still if it takes a look at things over time.

The terms "alimony" and "child support" are very different from each other and any statistics and/or research cited should attempt to distinguish them. If a man has a few kids, why SHOULDN'T child support be more than half his income?

I agree wholeheartedly, and I should have been clearer -- that Supreme Court decision resulted in almost [i]all[/i] of the laws relating to marriage having gender specificity removed -- it was just an alimony case that happened to be before the court. Any useful stats are going to make distinctions between childless hourseholds and those with kids, look at age, duration of marriage, etc. I just haven't been able to find any decent information -- though there's plenty of info out there on divorce rates, and on incomes for men and women before and after, I've found precious little on the details of actually divvying things up.

Well, there are as many answers to that question as there are states (plus the VI, PR, etc). In my state the child support is based strictly on a formula similar to student financial aid in that it considers both income and assets but weights them differently. The result is that if you get screwed in the asset division, you will owe less child support. It also ends up being quite common under this formula that women pay child support to men, although I'm sure the reverse is still more common.

Can you point to anything that lays out how things actually [i]do[/i] occur, not just the formula, but how many cases in year X broke down in this or that way? Darkseid claims below that in NYC a majority of women get more than half, PNG says that judges' don't favor women as much as they used to -- I'd just like to find some stats somewhere that quantify things.

Nope. I just pointed it out because the consequence of the asset distribution affecting the income distribution was an interesting and probably unintended consequence. It would tend to make the overall settlement less extreme and more middle-of-the-road, which is probably good in my opinion. Note that Darkseid is from NY and PNG is from CA so those states may tend to the extreme one way or another.

For several years I have mongered exclusively in other countries. I was pretty sure there was a reason for that, but just in case I wandered into the forum section for my home state.

I now think that the many, perhaps most, of the previously mentioned problems with American Women can be attributed to the presence of so unbelievably many dumb fucks among the American Male population. What a bunch of morons. Guys are saying things like, "I paid $300 and got a hand job. Is that a good deal?" and "I heard some guys go to other countries for sex. Any of you guys ever do that?" To this, some AM responded, "Dude that is not smart because you can't drink the water and there's a lot of diseases there."

There? Where??? Are there only two types of countries, America and Not America???

Sorry, just venting. Even Eric Rudolph would have coat hangered some of these dumb asses. I'll try not to go in that section again.

This is the kind of shit I am talking about:

"Has anyone seen Ann, white, around 21, 5'4", 140lb ? Usually hangs around Aurora and Chinatown. She is a druggie and a thief, but sometimes provide good service in a pinch."

My goodness. I like my druggie thieves a little slimmer (isn't that the whole point of drugs???) and more consistent.

So is this a commentary on the stupidity of American men or a commentary on restrictive prostitution laws? Either way it is a sad state of affairs.

It's not just the stupidity of American men overpaying for low quality prostitutes but it is their ignorance as well. Most American men don't have passports or visas and some never will get it. They don't know that there is a whole different world to explore outside of America. Some even think other countries are not worth exploring and that America is "it". They even think that NYC is "THE Mecca of Meccas". They couldn't be more wrong than that. I live in NYC and I find Rio de Janeiro or Amsterdam much more exciting because of the less restrictive laws in those other cities. In NYC, there are so many laws that it feels like all you can do is eat, sleep, and overwork. The cities or towns aother than NYC are much more boring because there is nothing to do and it is dead. In countries where we monger, at least prostitution is legal and in Amsterdam pot and public drunkenness is legal as well. My friends that don't have passports don't know that firsthand because they are too lazy or too stupid to go out and get one to explore these countries. Some of them even make the excuse that they are tied down to their American wives. I even asked them why they can't bring their wives with them and they admitted that they are not as adventurous as I am. All they have to go on is the tales that I bring back to them after my trip.

I agree with you, Darkseid. For these reasons it has been my practice for many years now not to tell my non-traveling friends anything about my trips. They ask, "How was your trip?" and I say "Great!" and change the subject.

A few years back a buddy expressed some interest in going to Amsterdam with me. I told him to get a passport ASAP. He procrastinated. Finally I asked him why and he said he didn't want to get all the shots (inoculations). I didn't bother telling him you don't need any shots and I have no idea what kind of shots he thought you did need.

Another friend who somehow actually has a college degree heard I was going to Buenos Aires. She said, "Oh, I went to the tropics one time and I got a skin rash." I didn't bother telling her that Buenos Aires is the same latitude as Albuquerque, about 1000 miles from the Tropic of Capricorn, and that only a tiny portion of that large country is in the tropics.

Another friend asked a person who was visiting from Spain if there were any "white people" there. And after I got back from Spain one guy (also a college graduate????) asked me why I didn't just go to Méjico instead; "it's the same thing and a lot closer."

I like to torture these people by using kilometers and centigrade. When they say "How many miles is that?" I say I don't know.

Given how little many Americans know about the geography of their [i]own[/i] country, it's not surprising to hear these kinds of comments. I've had numerous conversations where it's really appalling the lack of geographic (not to mention cultural, historical, or political) knowledge that people have. I had one guy swear to me up and down that China and Russia were not on the same continent or anywhere near each other, because China was in Asia, as any fool knew, and another guy try to convince me that India was in Africa. Small wonder we get the reputation we sometimes do as good-hearted know-nothings -- we often deserve it! (The latter guy also, of course, tried to tell me that Texas and Nebraska were right next to each other, something he knew to be true because they both had good football teams there.)

The most recent info I've seen says that in a given year about 7% of Americans visit any country other than Mexico or Canada, with about the same percentage visiting Mexico and less heading to Canada. About 45% of the respondents in a CBS News poll at the end of February said they had traveled overseas at some point, with about 57% of those still willing to travel. (This poll was, of course, taken while the war was looming.) Of those who say they would not travel overseas, their main reason was fear. 51% mention fear of some kind behind their decision, either of war, terrorism, just fear in general, or they express concern about the safety of Americans. 26% say they simply have no desire to go overseas, and another 6% say they want to see America first. 7% say they just don’t like to fly. Most people cite Europe as where they'd like to go, if they do.

Interesting to contrast this with a November study where the majority of Americans report they see themselves as more respectful of cultures with different values than they were a year ago (even though in the same study they also note less interest in going abroad.) Not sure the rest of the world would agree all that much with that perception after we've spent the past couple of years bombing the heck out of people, but so it goes.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by darkseid
[i]Purplengold,

If it is interpretation that changes, then it must be the judges that vary from state to state. In NYC, a majority of the ex-wives get MORE than half of the husband's income in alimony and child support. In california, it is a clear cut HALF of the salary and wealth. I am not sure of some other states but I guess they might be less pro-female than NYC and California which sucks for divorced males. [/i][/QUOTE]

Let me give an example. I sat in divorce court during two hearings. During the first, a lady who had been married for 1.5 years, the judge practically shit on the ***** because she was asking for 'half'. I thought he was gonna have the bailiff throw her ass out. Right after that, the same judge practically pleads with a woman who's been married 3 years to take as much as she can get. Apparently, the guy was moved by this second lady who didn't ask for alimony and just wanted the lesser of two automobiles. When the lady said, no to alimony the second time, the judge refused and granted her $1/month so that "when [she comes] to [her] senses" she could go back to court and sue for more.

While we're on the subject of geo-clueless Americans...

I grew up about 2 hours drive from Mexico, and threw a bullshit flag on a professor when he told the class that less than 4 out of 5 Americans didn't know what country bordered us to the south. How could tha be?

Well, I had to eat that flag. I spent the day asking everyone what countries bordered us to the north and south. This is a Southern California University mind you. Out of, probably 150 students (many of whom had been to Tijuana), about 10 knew the answer and only myself and my best friend new where in hell Canada was. Oh, and a couple people told me LA bordered us to the north but there was only ocean to the south!

And then there was the guy who refused to believe me when I told him Méjico has states just like we do (32) and that all of them have their own capitals.

But then there was the time when I was in Malta and met some guys in the Canadian Navy. They were complaining that they had to learn the capitals of all 50 US states but no Americans knew the capitals of all the Canadian provinces. I said I did and rattled them off. They tried to bust me for not knowing the capital of Nunavut, but I said that is a territory and not a province so they let me slide. They proceeded to buy me innumerable drinks and even more so when I told them I knew who the top two all-time Canadian home run hitters were and that hockey is not the national sport of Canada. We ended up singing the Canadian national anthem at high volume (there were eight sailors) in the Hard Rock Cafe and we got a standing ovation. Then we sang "When Irish Eyes Are Smiling."

But I digress. Sorry.

Oh, PNG, maybe you ought not to throw that bullshit flag so often.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by joe_zop

The most recent info I've seen says that in a given year about 7% of Americans visit any country other than Mexico or Canada, with about the same percentage visiting Mexico and less heading to Canada. About 45% of the respondents in a CBS News poll at the end of February said they had traveled overseas at some point, with about 57% of those still willing to travel. (This poll was, of course, taken while the war was looming.) Of those who say they would not travel overseas, their main reason was fear. 51% mention fear of some kind behind their decision, either of war, terrorism, just fear in general, or they express concern about the safety of Americans. 26% say they simply have no desire to go overseas, and another 6% say they want to see America first. 7% say they just don’t like to fly. Most people cite Europe as where they'd like to go, if they do.

Interesting to contrast this with a November study where the majority of Americans report they see themselves as more respectful of cultures with different values than they were a year ago (even though in the same study they also note less interest in going abroad.) Not sure the rest of the world would agree all that much with that perception after we've spent the past couple of years bombing the heck out of people, but so it goes. [/i][/QUOTE]

That poll is right on the money when they interviewed how many people make these excuses. One of the main excuses they are missing though is the fear of the language barriers which is another excuse among the majority that don't travel. One of my friends said he wanted to see America first but he didn't even see more than the tri-state area. He still makes this excuse to procrastinate on getting a passport to this day. He also never even been to Canada or Mexico because he feared that French is spoken in Canada and Spanish is spoken in Mexico. He is half right in that they do speak those languages but these people are bilingual and can also speak english. I understand the language barrier fear as far as going to other continents but one could always go with a foreign friend who knows the language so that is still not a legitimate excuse not to travel.
My parents try to convince me to stay home in the US during this time because of terrorism. But I ignore their pleas because I go to neutral countries like Brazil or Germany. Also you get great deals on airfare because of the failing airtravel businesses. I paid half as much now as I would have paid before the September 11th attack. My parents are one of those 51% with the irrational fears of terrorism.
When the polls say there is only 7% who fears flying, I think there is actually more than that. I think they ALL have the fear of flying because they fear adventure and fear what's new and different. I embrace new things and different cultures because I LOVE variety. The people that fear travelling are the same people that would eat McDonald's every single day of their lives and never try anything new. Even if McDonald's presents a new sandwich, they still order the Big Mac. This neophobe is the same reason they stay in America and think it is the only way of living and never travel outside the USA.

darkseid

I've read many of your posts here and shared many of your views about american women and being an asian in the U.S. I'm also a well educated asian around your age and living in the tri-state area. I enjoy travelling just like you. I've read your posts on the Brazil board and find it very interesting on how you said about how asian are rare in Brazil. I've never been to South America and would love to visit. The thing is that I don't know any one there and don't have any friend who has ever been to South America or has interest in going there. So I was wondering if you can email me (traveling_buddy@yahoo.com) so that I can ask you more and perhaps to join you on your next Brazil trip. Thank you in advance.

Oh, this board has been pretty useful in a sense that I was able to get to know someone on this board and end up going to Bangkok together. He was a nice guy and showed me around Thailand and the DOs and DONTs since he's been there so many time mongering, and that was my first time and the only time so far. I've never felt comfortable going to a strange place by myself the first time.

American or non-american. Women all over the world have changed. I'm from Asia, and the views posted here on American women are much the same here too, only difference is on economic power, its not the stone age story any more, and partly I feel we have to share the blame, for "ladies first" and pulling the chair thing.

In stone age women wanted men for everything for security food sheltor, not any more, the law is on there side, they work, they live alone, they have everything now to equal men, their demands just like men are manifold, there must be some different approach to get women now.

Loser,

Same approach still works: flash money at them.

Darkseid,

Just returned from Prague and had a great, great time.

One of the clubs I went to in Prague is called K5. It's about the best club in Prague and is frequented by many Asian guys. Spoke with a group of them before I settled on a girl and learned that they were from Korea. Great bunch of guys and we had a blast. One of them even jumped up on stage with one of the girls who was stripping. They charged many rounds of drinks and one guy mentioned that they like K5 and Prague in particular because of a complete lack of prejudice towards Asians. In fact, the girls in the club seemed to be quite interested in them. When a guy would motion for a girl to come over, she walked over immediately. After awhile, they all had a girl sitting with them and everyone was having a great and drunken time. I thought of you and have no doubt that you would have hade a blast at K5.

So, next time you pan a trip, you might want to consider Prague.

Paddy,

What did your post have to do with the topic of this thread?

P&G,

Darkseid often laments about prejudicial issues on this thread in regard to Asians and I saw the exact opposite when I was there. Thought he might be interested.

Sorry if I ruined your day. Didn't know that you were such a "purist" in regard to content on this thread.

Percent of Male population used prostitutes.

I was having this discussion with my buddy. He maintains that the total male population used prostitutes (in their life time) is very small, may be about 5% or less. I totally disagree, my contention is at least 50% if not more. He contended that most males do not use prostitutes because of legal, disease or financial reasons. I disagree. Are there any unbiased study out there on this topic? Thanks

There was a study done here that said that one in six men had paid for sex. Obviously that's in Australia, but I can't see us being too different to America. Another study I read said that a third of all men have paid for sex - I think that was from Amsterdam or Germany, so the rates would be a bit higher because of it's legality. Just type something like "percentage, men, visit prostitutes" into a search engine and see what comes up. (You may want to try sex worker instead of prostitute as well).

Personally I think one in six sounds a little low - I daresay there would probably be men in the study groups who would lie about it!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paddy
[i]P&G,

Darkseid often laments about prejudicial issues on this thread in regard to Asians and I saw the exact opposite when I was there. Thought he might be interested.

Sorry if I ruined your day. Didn't know that you were such a "purist" in regard to content on this thread. [/i][/QUOTE]

Sorry to tell you that you can't ruin my day. I'm not a purist, but your post really belongs in the Prague section.

Kinsey's stats (from the 40s/50s, which might well be different, since it's before the days of the pill) were as follows: 69% of white males had had at least one experience with a prostitute; among unmarried males, sex with a prostitute was about 10% of the total premarital intercourse (this seems unlikely in terms of things today); among married males, sex with a prostitute was never more than 1.7% of the total sexual "outlet" reported. Now, there's a tremendous amount out there arguing that Kinsey's stats are generally high on just about everything except for the physiological stuff, but I've been unable to find anything else that really quantifies things. (Probably time for me to make a good statistics research day at one of the uni libraries -- sure seems like someone must have done this, somewhere.) There's a bit out there talking about estimated composition of clients from a prostitute perspective -- a lot of which conflicts with Kinsey in that most estimate a pretty high percentage of married men as customers -- but little about participation of the population at large.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RN
[i]There was a study done here that said that one in six men had paid for sex. Obviously that's in Australia, but I can't see us being too different to America. [/i][/QUOTE]

Ummmm ....

It's legal in many (most?) parts of Australia and only legal in a few isolated and silly little places in the US so I rather suspect it [b] is [/b] quite different.

A quick check shows that just under 50% of Australia's population (19 million) lives in either Sydney (4.1 million), Melbourne (3.5 million) or Perth (1.4 million). Prostitution is legal, at least partially, in all three cities. To compare, the population of the only state in the US (Nevada) where prostitution is legal is well under 1% of the US's total population, [i] and [/i] prostitution is only legal in a few remote and sparsely populated counties within that state. 70% of Nevada's population is in Clark County, where prostitution is not legal. Another 20% is in Washoe County; prostitution's not legal there either.

Those Kinsey figures sound way too high to me. I do think a lot of guys would lie about it. My guess for the US, based on discussion and experience, is 20-30%. This is higher than Rubbie's 1 in 6 figure because the US is more screwed up than Oz?? Maybe??? Look at how quiet the Australia section of the board is. Is that because fewer Ozzie men go to prostitutes or because they don't need this board to be able to find them?

Let's do this scientifically. How many of you guys reading this have ever visited a prostitute? :)

it's decriminalised in sydney, legal in melbourne (although the actual number of legal brothels/workers is greatly outnumbered by the illegal ones) and it's illegal in perth. it's tolerated here though to a certain degree. but a look at the us section of this forum tells me that prostitution is alive and well in most of the united states as well - regardless of it's illegality (like my state). i would think that an american wouldn't have too much trouble finding a hooker if he really wanted one.

as for your last question - if you have a peek at the morality section, you'll see my hand is raised. *grin*

Joe - my 'statistics' would conflict with the Kinsey stuff too. I don't believe the reports that say that married men make up a high percentage of sex workers' clients.

Dickhead - By the way, Aussies don't come here because they have their own boards.

RN,

This may cost me the 'smart' compliment you gave me, but what's the difference between decriminalized and legal? Also, if it's legal, why are there illegal brothels? Are there certain services that they offer that are still considered illegal? Or do they have girls that are not tested or are illegal aliens?

generally, legalisation means the introduction of (usually extremely oppressive) laws to regulate the sex industry, and the creation of criminal laws to deal with people who work outside the legal framework. decriminalisation means the removal of all criminal sanctions against prostitution.

the answer to your second question lies in the first...the legal frameworks that are created - by people who do not understand the sex industry and thus subject it to unnecessarily extreme controls - exclude many people from the legal industry. people who use drugs, have criminal convictions, are ****, are illegal immigrants, have certain diseases, etc, can not work legally...but they still want to work, so they do it illegally. the laws also make it too expensive for legal brothels to operate, which leads to people operating illegally so that they don't have the overheads. for example, in melbourne the brothels are subjected to so many licence fees and working restrictions, that they had to up their prices and lower the girls cut of the takings. girls of course moved on to the illegal brothels, who could afford to pay them a higher cut. there are 4 times more illegal brothels than legal ones in melbourne.

i am totally opposed to legalisation. check out [url]www.iinet.net.au/~ashkara[/url] for more info.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RN
[i]It's decriminalised in Sydney, legal in Melbourne (although the actual number of legal brothels/workers is greatly outnumbered by the illegal ones) and it's illegal in Perth. It's tolerated here though to a certain degree. [/i][/QUOTE]

But on 11/16/02 you posted this, RN:

"Another example...it is LEGAL to do sex work in your own home in my state."

As we know, I haven't been to Perth, only Sydney and Melbourne. Is it now illegal in Perth as a result of that proposed legislation you were trying to defeat a while back? I thought that was defeated or withdrawn or something. Please explain.

You're right. I was talking brothels...sorry. Brothels are illegal here. Street work is illegal here. I shouldn't really have said that it was "legal" in your own home, because technically that's probably not the right term for it. Private work and escort work are really only legal by default...in that they aren't officially illegal.

And unfortunately, that Bill disappeared only to reappear slightly changed (and probably worse than it was) and get thrown straight into Parliament. We are still fighting it with tooth and nail. Under the proposed laws we will have exactly the same problems as Melbourne - where only specific things are legal, and the rest is outlawed.

So then are you really "against legalization" or are you actually against [b] regulation [/b]? As I have mentioned before, I prefer the Costa Rica model where anything two consenting adults agree to do is legal regardless of whether money changes hands or not. Although, notably, homosexual acts were only very recently decriminalized in Costa Rica.

I am completely opposed to legalisation, because to do that, they need to impose ridiculous restrictions on the industry. Regulation (depending on how it's done I guess) is a bit different. If they were to regulate the sex industry in the same way that other like businesses are regulated, I would have no problems with it. But unfortunately, they just can't seem to do that.

I support the model that they call "decriminalisation with controls", which is what happens in Sydney. For example, street work is decriminalised, BUT you are not allowed to do it within view of a dwelling, church, school, etc - to protect the rights of the general community. The controls also work the other way (to protect the rights of the industry), like in South Sydney where the councils are not allowed to refuse a brothel business application on "moral" grounds - they can only be refused if they do not comply to normal business requirements.

Everywhere that legalisation has occurred, sex workers are treated like criminals. Look at the lockdown NV brothels! Those women are treated like caged animals! Legalisation, rather than making the industry legitimate and protecting workers, always does the exact opposite. It also brands sex workers for life, because it invariably includes a licensing system, which is necessary in order to enforce the tough regulations and restrictions.

Out of interest, is it actually "legal" in Costa Rica - or is there just an absence of laws telling you NOT to do it. That's the difference that I am trying to point out. What I want is an absence of law. Sex for money between two consenting adults has no place in the Criminal Code.

This is so very far off-topic. Maybe we should move it somewhere else.

P&G,

I've got an idea. Let's make you the de facto "sheriff" and executor of what's relevant on this thread and what is not. I, for one, could certainly profit from your insightful albeit arbitrary decisions and wisdom.

Most assuredly, we could use a scholar and linguist of your caliber to impose the righteous discipline you deem proper and necessary. I look forward to your benevolent and righteous guidance. Thank you!

Ok boys - no fighting. As the reigning Queen of off-topic posts (probably the worst offender in the whole of the WSG), I have to say that, well...shit happens. Sometimes the conversation strays, sometimes you make posts to certain people in certain sections because you know they always read that section.

You all know what happens to me when testosterone starts flying around here - I get horny. And you CAN'T make me horny now, because I've just spent the last of my money on that gorgeous brunette. So stop it, ok? For my sake? ;)

Americans may not know the history geograhphy of the country, however, one has to get the complete picture before concluding on anything. Americans are the richest people on earth, Americans are the most charitable people on earth, America is one of the least corrupt nations, America is most technically advanced than any other nation, they have a superior army, and their ideals are freedon and equality for all.

The position America is now, is definately unique in world hostory, no nations before had so many things working together, say former Russia, they had stronger army, but weak economy, that was their downfall. I'm from asia and I have been in america for two yrs for software development. The first thing I notcied was there is none what so ever corruption in lower leval of administration. People mind there own business, I mean more professional, least jealeasy, and they are hardworking, more open, to new ideas. I can tell this as a fact, I think I have seen the two worlds, may be for a shorter period of time, but I can certainly differentiate.

Here in Asia, its just opposite, If wsg server was ever in china or india or any other asian country, it wouldn't have run for more than six months, here you can more openly say about American women, try saying this about Asian women in there country, all the save womenhood organisation will knock you down and you will be
behind bars for a year.

Nothing will work here, democracy and freedom is for name sake, here every educated person knows the geography of the country well enough, but when they graduate and get some higher job, they will do what ever in their means to make extra money.

Corruption is a way of life for educated, geographically correct person, everyone from the highest politician to meanest businessman, is up to rob his own countrymen, chronic corruption is the way of life. no freedom, no job, chronic underfunding in every project. They cheat you day in and day out, and you may not even know it.

The contrast in comparision of Asia and America, is enough for a 1000
page article. An american may not know the geography of his country, but in his field of study, he will be master. They are much more practical, professional, they are least jealous, least corrupt than most countries, they control
their emotions, thats much positive points.

All this talk of America lookin for Iraqs oil reserves is stupid, America was richest country in the world before the begining of 19th century, even before we had automobiles. Even if Iraq does not give oil to America still they will be the richest.

Anyways, all these oil rich nations are ruled by dictators, and the common people hardly get the money, the perfect case is Saudi Arabia, there is high
unemployment there, and the youth with no jobs become religious fanatics, thats the reason why 15 hijackers of sep 11 were from Saudi Arabia.

Saddam or no Saddam, not even one inch iraq is going to change, the money generated from oil will go to the select top leaders. It does not matter to get knowledge on one hand, and exploit ones own country on the other, thats wht is happening in Asian countries, or for that most of other countires. its better we judge taking this into account.

RN,

In lieu of my unlimted respect for you and your opinions, I will desist. I was only trying to communicate with Darkseid.

With the topic of the statistics on who uses prostitutes, the percentage is higher in Brazil, Germany and Holland where it is legal and accepted even among married couples. They more openly admit that they visit brothels, RLD or escorts. In fact in these liberal countries, the wives even participate in threesomes. In America, guys want to HIDE the fact that they've used prostitutes because it is illegal and "shameful". Again, the concept of "shame" is to blame for such cover ups in American statistics. If I were maried, I would even cover up the fact that I travel for prostitutes because if I get caught, I could end a marriage because wives in America are much more conservative than they are in Europe or South America or Asia (except Japan). I could lose half of my wealth and income (depreciated from my weekly paycheck) or if she is pissed off enough, my penis.
Paddy, I'm glad to hear that you had a great time in Prague. I am going to Germany at the end of May. How far is the Pragues from Germany and how did you get past the language barrier?

Darkseid, do you have any specific references for your info on these differences? I've been looking for quite some time for stats on overall percentages and variations by country.

Paddy, I don't think your post on Prague is out of line.

Actually, I was making a comment on RN's statistics and supporting why it is true. I did come across some statistics on yahoo but did not take down the URLs for those sites. The stas for each of those pages vary to a little degree except for the US statistics which vary depending on various factors such as if the person travels, is married or single, etc.

Thanks, it's just tough to track down truly reliable information. For example, I found two studies from the mid-90s that said that 85% of Thai men regularly visited prostitutes, and another that claimed that in the face of AIDS education, the percentage of Thai men visiting prostitutes annually had fallen from 25% to 10%. (My guess, based on similar studies in Cambodia, is that the former are probably more accurate than the latter.) Similar contradictory stuff floats around for various countries, with it being perhaps the most useless for the US. So it's difficult to get a real handle on things -- as is typical in prostitution studies, there's a heavy focus on the women involved, but very little looking at the men.

Dick Johnson,

Thanks Dick. My message was addressed to Darkseid - not P&G. I thought that Darkseid might be interested in the apparent absence of racial attitudes that Czech women display toward Asian guys. He has often lamented about discrimination towards Asians by American women and I thought that I found a great and far superior alternative for him. That's all.

Again, thanks for your support. In deference to RN, this is the last I'm going to say about this issue.

Still Paddy, I think there should be a Section for discussing the hobby from a "minority" view. For example how would an Asain or Black guy do in this or that country. The script is often flipped.

[blue]i appreciate your position, but in my opinion, such a section would become a constant flame war.

Jackson[/blue]

This forum is all about great info and I get a lot of it here, including where the clubs are, when to go, the prices, and the quality of women. It is also important to see how they treat certain types of people, after all women treat each client differently from another based on their preferences. I get much better treatment in Brazil than the black guy for example because Brazilians love asians whereas in America, they give better sex to the black person and try to rush a session with an Asian guy like myself or a middle eastern guy. Experiences also ary based on such factors as age, hygiene, and body type, etc. A country can be a paradise for one type of person but the ladies will try to burn another type of guy.

Agreed Darksied. This is a great site, and IMO guys from all ethinicities are telling it like it is. But instead of having to needle through various posts looking for "minority" veiwpoint it might be better to keep it organized. There are a lot of "minorities" here.

Jackson, thanks for your response, I could see how a flame war might be a concern.... Still the topic would not be about who is the superior race, but instead which markets best appeal to certain ethnicities/races. Those who are overly sensitive or defensive don't need to be posting here anyway...

This site is all about providing truthful info, if we don't look at the hobby from all angles we may be sacrificing some of that validity.

First of all I must say to Jackson. Thank you. I know I read that you didn't create this site but you kept it going. I forget which. But I must say thank you because this site has really changed my life. And then I see that postings take longer now because of spammers. If that's what it takes to keep them out I'm all for it. Now to quit brown nosing and discuss the topic and hand. Ha ha.

I'm young, black and travel a lot. Have been to various places like Jamaica, Brazil and Argentina. And my take on the whole race issue is that in certain countries the women do have preferences, but it's nothing wrong with that. I have preferences. I think it must be remembered that America stated out segregated by the people that came here. The motto was kill off the Indians and enslave the blacks. In a way that was their way of self preservation. Down the years that mentality stayed. It's in books all documented. That's why America is the way it is. But to Darkseid I do feel you. I work in a customer service industry and do see that Asians are kind of talked down to by our customers and even I don't understand it. I've had customers clown on me too but I notice that it happens more to Asians.

I still think that Afro-Americans still get treated like shit in some ways but the point now is that black people are more American than African now. I've met black people who are more Uncle Tom than white people, now figure that one out.

My motto though is F*ck America for sex, period!!! You can have all the women here. I don't want them. I'm here for the money, education, and jobs and that's it. That's all the country is good for now. If you want good sex and just to have a good time in general you've got to leave the U.S. I know it sounds weird but it's the unfortunate truth. Peace.

Guys,

I guess that I agree with and see both sides of this issue.

On the one hand, a thread dealing with racial issues that would consolidate these topics seems reasonable. Such issues are a fact of life and are certainly relevant to many of the guys on this forum.

On the other hand, I guess that I'm also compelled to agree with Jackson in that such a thread could result in a flame war and some real nasty and mean spirited point-counterpoint discussion. I think that any minimally perceptive guy who is working in American society has to agree that racism is alive and well in America. As one of the older guys on this forum, I thought that stuff like that would dissipate over the decades but it's still here and maybe always will be. The only difference now is that people tend to be more discreet and less overt about their racial remarks and comments. There is also the possibility that some wacko outsider could register and start all kinds of problems

I think that Jackson has done a great, great job and that we should ultimately trust in his wisdom. Just some random thoughts.

I agree, Phil, the US is a horrible place for sex. Having a good time here is illegal and because of that this is not a free environment to me. It is free to all prudes to take away the fun that adults seek by closing down strip joints and other sex places they complain about to their neighborhood police. In fact I have a single immigrant friend from Haiti who was busted on marijuana use and busted a different time for going to an underground sex club. In Haiti, if you get caught, you can bribe the cop who caught you and he'll go away, but he tried this in New York and served a 3 month community service sentence and lost his job because of it. He was busted almost a year later going to a strip club where the VIP room offers BBBJ and sex when a nosy person called the police because they were playing loud music and scantily dressed women were entering the club. I bet the nosy neighbor was "worried about the kids". My immigrant friend cursed the day he came to America but he stayed because he was broke in Haiti so he decided to make money in America and then leave the country when he saves enough to be rich in Haiti. He and I both agreed that the US is a very restrictive country but it is a great place to become rich. He compares it to a gold mine in which you must work hard and suffer so that you can get gold and become rich once you get out of the mine. You can enjoy your wealth after all the hard work and time you put into mining, but the mine itself is not a fun place to be. In fact it is dangerous because the US has the highest crime rate on the planet, much higher than Brazil. In fact when my friends ask me if Brazil is dangerous, I tell them that Brazil is like a child's playground compared to NYC.

[i]In fact it is dangerous because the US has the highest crime rate on the planet[/i]

This is something that gets thrown around a lot, but it's not actually true. According to the United Nations Survey on Crime Trends, there are a number of countries -- Chile, Denmark, England, Finland, New Zealand -- with higher rates of reported crime, and Canada, Germany and the Netherlands, among others, are within shouting distance of US rates. These are also for the most part, like the US, places where there are viable police structures, so it's very probable that the rate of reporting crimes is higher than in other countries with less reliable police, so rates there are probably under-estimated, especially in those countries where, as you describe, the police can be bribed out of doing anything about it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by joe_zop
[i][i]In fact it is dangerous because the US has the highest crime rate on the planet[/i]

What it [i]does[/i] have is the highest [b]incarceration[/b] rate on the planet.

Agreed -- despite the fact that Australia, for example, brings people into court at almost twice the rate per 100,000 people as the US, it incarcerates at less than one-sixth the rate. In general, though, both US prosecution and conviction rates are higher than most places, and people are more likely to be sentenced to jail.

The fact that it is easier to be persecuted and sentenced in the US shows how strict our laws are. Also since prison makes one bitter especially if they are put there for such victimless crimes as prostitution or drug use. People who once had respectable jobs but go for one night to a prostitution club and get caught in the bust become worse criminals when they get out of jail because they are unable to get employment. They become burglars, muggers, and thieves then end up killing for a bite to eat. It becomes a vicious cycle in America.

Well, I did time for one of those victimless crimes (less than a gram of hash = a year upstate and another on probation; I got paroled after ten months) and I haven't turned into a burglar or a mugger or killer. I did turn into a Dickhead (well, I was already well on my way), but what I decided was the system wasn't going to fuck me again so I kept right on doing what I had been doing (once I got off parole) BUT I got an education and a better job so everyone would THINK I had changed ...

Darkseid, you post a lot of unsubstantiated crap as if it were fact. You need to learn from JZ and cite some decent sources for some of the allegations you make. But, I doubt you will be able to because most of it is totally false.

But, yeah, I'm still a little bitter about it after almost thirty years. It was totally unnecessary and it wiped me out financially. Plus years later I paid a lawyer to have my record expunged. More years later when I got a job in a halfway house I found out it [b]hadn't[/b] been expunged and the fucking lawyer was dead so there went another grand down the toilet. I could have gotten laid 50 times for that in Buenos Aires, not even thinking about twenty years' worth of interest ...

Well fuck it. I probably got laid 50 times in Buenos Aires anyway so [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140][CodeWord140][/url] on all the lawyers and all the district attorneys and all the cops and all the religious right wingers (just had some Mormons knock on my door today; boy, did I rip into those fuckers) and and and

Heh, I didn't know this thread existed. Yep, The Guess Who (and for all you younger folks, Lenny Kravitz) had it PEGGED: "American Woman, stay away from me!"

It seems to me that American women demand absolute equality (dare I say it ... superiority?), yet they'll never complain if a man does something in deference to them.

In short, they want it all.

American women are the reason I've always been single. It pains me to consider finding a foreign woman and bringing her here, as she'd no doubt "be assimilated."

America's litigous, politically-correct culture has done much to temper the American female agenda. And for that, it was easy for me to turn to hobbying ... why not? I mean, for roughly the cost of a nice dinner and a movie, I can go straight to dessert! :) It's the ultimate convenient package, with absolutely no strings attached. Provided, of course, I slather enough antiseptic down there afterwards!

Anyway, there's my several two-cents' worth. Have a good one and VIVA SEXY FOREIGN FEMALES! :D

Joe - does your source state what sort of offences people are being taken to court for in OZ? It's just that we have sooo many petty crimes on our books that people are charged with all the time, but they do not carry jail sentences. One of the biggest, I would think, is Social Security Fraud. The conviction rates on that are in the hundreds of thousands every year, but unless you do something extremely fraudulent (like using false ID to get welfare, etc) you are only fined or given community service.

We do have a "three strikes" policy for imprisonment - but it seems to be rarely used.

Okay Dickhead, I'm sorry I struck a nerve on the criminal thing. You served a jail sentence for drugs but didn't turn out a career criminal, unlike what I said on my previous post so I was wrong on that note. The other half is still true that it is much easier to be convicted to jail in the US and for stupid petty shit like drug possession and being a john. These victimless crimes are crimes based on morality and the other crap that the prudes vote for in America. We are also educated to hate and not tolerate these victimless crimes by the media. Drugs and prostitution are always linked to gangs and violence and runned down neighborhoods but Holland paints a different picture because Holland's RLD and sex clubs are none of that.

rn, they don't break down prosecution by type, other than to say that these are all criminal rather than civil cases. oz interestingly, while it has far lower rates in many categories than the us, is higher in rates of general theft, auto theft, and probably most surprising to me, given the us reputation, [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url] -- well over twice the rate in that. the un stats don't report fraud rates for oz, though they do for the us.

and as per dickhead's story -- the rate of recorded drug offenses in the us is far higher than any given violent crime -- and higher than murder, [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url], major assaults, and robbery combined.

i do disagree with you, darskeid, on the john thing. the prosecution and conviction levels there, especially as far as jail time, are very low compared to other crimes. the un doesn't track that, but it's what i've read elsewhere (generally in things that contrast the arrest/conviction rates of prostitutes -- high -- to johns.)

it's sad to have to admit, but i'm not the slightest bit surprised by the australian [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url] rates. but i should say (in our defence) that those rates probably actually reflect how seriously our courts take sexual assault. as more [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord127][CodeWord127][/url] get penalised and imprisoned (finally!) - more women become willing to report. i think our incidence of [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url] is actually pretty similar to the us (about 1 in 4 women being raped in her lifetime), which should mean that our prosecution rates - compared to the us - look pretty good, really.

understood, and i'd also pick up on the whole prosecution thing to say again that good reporting and prosecution can make things look like they're getting worse when the opposite is true. better reporting and prosecution of [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord124][CodeWord124][/url] or anything else doesn't necessarily mean the rate is actually rising -- only that it's being taken more seriously. this is always one of the things you see in crime stats -- effective police departments often look as though they're doing a bad job because they take reports and pursue things, where ineffective forces not only don't make the crime reports and the effort, they don't get called by people, because they figure it's not worth the effort. and having police who can be bribed out of reporting things means that it's tough to get a true picture of the problem -- if they can be bribed for one thing we might not object to, they can be bribed for others.

but to get this back in the direction of the topic, i have to wonder just how much the focus on victimless crimes does or does not affect the climate of sexuality in the us. we talk about it a lot, but i'm not conviced which is chicken and which is egg -- whether the laws are the result of an up-tight society, or whether the uptight society is the result of the laws, or both. as marlene dietrich once said, "in america sex is an obsession, in other parts of the world it is a fact."

there is no way that one in four women are raped in their lifetime. that is just absurd and if there are statistics that support that, they must have a very interesting definition of [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url], like the check bounced so it was [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url]. sorry, i'll never believe that no matter what. but, i'd be willing to look at some statistics if and only if they include the definition they used, how they selected the sample, and so forth. i'd be willing to bet that any study that showed rates anywhere near that have a biased sample.

in nearly everything i've read, from every country around the world, the rates are between 1 in 3, and 1 in 6. granted, i haven't looked at the actual definitions, etc - but they do use the word "[url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url]", not sexual assault. type "women will be raped in their lifetime" into google. i just did, and some pretty scary looking numbers popped up.

actually, the national institute for justice (part of the u.s. department of justice) has broken down violence in general and violence against women pretty specifically. it pegs the number who have suffered either [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url] or attempted [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url] during their lifetime at 1 in 6, using a very strict definition of [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url] as forced oral, vaginal or anal sex. this is considered by many experts to be a very conservative estimate. this same study pegs the percentage of women who will be either raped or physically assaulted during their lifetime at 55%. (men stand at 66.8%, but [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url] and attempted [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url] here is at 3%, and 53% of men will be "slapped or hit" during their lifetime versus 43% of women.) the breakdown of women raped during their lifetime looks like this: completed [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url] -- 14.8%, attempted only, 2.8%.

the study is at [url]http://www.ncjrs.org/pdffiles/172837.pdf[/url] if anyone wants to look at it. one of the disturbing things the study also found was that female [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url] victims from the previous twelve months suffered an average of almost three [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord124][CodeWord124][/url]. it also goes into considerable detail about the differences in statistical measuring approaches and why differences might exist in various statistics.

these findings are in line with the national health and social life survey, which found that 22% of surveyed women and 2% of surveyed men said they had "been forced to do something sexual" in their lifetime.

whether it's one in three, one in four, or one in six, i still find these numbers appalling. and let me say that i'm someone who was really pissed off by the first big date [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url] study that got all kinds of noise and press, as its definition of sexual assault included "unwanted looking" and popped that into the aggregated statistics. i hate studies with an ax to grind, as they tend to obscure the real issue and do more harm than good, but i don't think there's much question that there's real harm going on here.

1 in 6 is more believable to me, especially if it includes attempted. Again, I am more concerned with the sampling technique. There is usually some type of response bias. I will check out JZ's source and comment on it later. I am at a public computer right now.

47% of all men have never been in a single fight in their lifetimes? Quite frankly I don't believe that either.

all i can say is that myself, a couple of my relatives and many, many of my friends, have been either raped or sexually assaulted. (and i'm most certainly not including "unwanted looking!!") it's so very common, it's scary. that doesn't include sex workers who are raped at work either - although, of course it should - but i'm talking only about 'ordinary' women who were raped by strangers, or by dates and/or family friends.

i think this is something that men in this section should think a little about - ask any of your female friends if she knows anyone who has been raped (or even if she, herself, has). i will almost guarantee that most women know at least one woman who has, if not many. i'm not saying it's an excuse for being a frigid ***** - only that it stands to reason that we would err on the side of caution.

maybe those men are just brilliant defenders so they're never hit :) seriously, though, if you take out fights before adulthood that might well be an accurate number. i know tons of guys who i can't imagine ever being in a physical confrontation.

i'd agree with you, rn -- i've had exactly that conversation with many women i know, and i've rarely come across a woman who doesn't personally know someone who's been raped. and i'd say at least half have said they've been at least physically attacked around sexual issues, with a high number confessing they personally were raped, even if lots of them also "took the blame" for it because it was someone they knew and they "should have been able to stop it."

i didn't realize those fight stats were adults only. then it sounds about right. my sister was raped at knifepoint when she was 15. now that's [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url]. some other shit i heard about, including my ex-girlfriend's account of being raped, doesn't qualify imo. i am not trying to say it isn't a frequent and serious problem, only that the studies i looked at in school did not survey a sample of all women, and that there is a lot of junk science out there as far as studies are concerned.

i wonder what portion of those male [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord124][CodeWord124][/url] occurred in prison. i wonder if prison inmates ever get into these survey samples. i wonder if different generations respond to surveys with the same honesty and frequency.

i bet the incidence of [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url] in third world countries is very high. i wonder if [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url] is actually increasing or decreasing in frequency in developed countries.

but really, i will never be either a victim or a perpetrator so maybe i don't have much perspective on the issue. so, i'll shut up until i get a chance to review jz's link.

i actually don't know whether or not the stats are all adult-based -- i didn't read the study all that recently, to be honest, and just popped back there for some numbers for this discussion because i recalled feeling it was fairly authoritative. my thought was that if you asked someone if they'd ever been raped, that's always a yes, whereas if you asked an adult if they've ever been in a fight they're likely to discount youthful activities. i'm not sure on the prison side of things -- my guess is that if they're represented, it's probably based on a sampling of those who have been released. i've never tracked down stats on the prison rates, but they're certainly epidemic.

no disagreement whatsoever on the junk study issue -- it's one of my pet peeves. i agree with you on [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url] incidence in the third world -- that was part of my point about reliability of police stats.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dickhead
[i]47% of all men have never been in a single fight in their lifetimes? Quite frankly I don't believe that either. [/i][/QUOTE]

The 1 in 6 figure sounds right to me. But, I worked a crisis line while in college, so I may be biased in view as well. :(

I gotta agree with the 47% of men being in a fight in their entire life sounding completely ridiculous. That has to have some odd restriction because kids on playgrounds are an unruly bunch, and I'd figure that number has to be in the 90% unless you exclude certain types of fights or certain age groups.

Just to be perfectly clear on this -- the study said that 53% of men reported being hit or slapped -- it didn't say anything about a fight. Other categories included being shoved, hit with objects, having weapons pointed or used against them, etc., all of which could obviously happen in the context of a tussle. So extrapolating from that number to a figure of how many men have been in a fight is in all likelihood not accurate.

okay, i looked at joe's link. i read the whole thing. it was a telephone survey, which is bad. but, they did not just interview whomever answered the phone, which is good. they identified residents at the phone number randomly dialed and if there was more than one over 18 years old, they selected the one with the most recent birthday. that is good. they did not adjust for the possibility (probability in my opinion) that women were more likely to be home than men and why that might be. that is bad, but i don't know what you could really do about it. the survey considered equal numbers of male and female respondents (800 of each). that is good. but, it doesn't completely offset the possibility that women are more likely to be home than men, because i think you get different characteristics if you interview someone who was not the person who answered the phone (in your pursuit of an equal number of male and female respondents).

however and inexplicably, women were always interviewed by women while men were interviewed by an equal proportion of men and women. wtf??? is all i can say about that. ridiculous and indicative of inherent bias by the surveyors imo. both of the authors of the survey were women and they conducted the analysis and designed the survey. possible bias there.

the conclusion that women were more likely to be injured in an assault is certainly intuitive, but since women are physically weaker, a given amount of force is more likely to injure a woman than a man. sorry about that. perhaps men and women have inherently different internal definitions of assault. i mean, my wife pushed me a few times but i didn't consider it assault. i wonder why. i'm quite sure she would have considered it assault if i had ever pushed her!

the authors say they used "state of the art techniques to protect confidentiality." yet, they don't say what these techniques were. i deem that to be suspect. they ask people if they were ever "beat up." that should be "beaten up," of course, but it is vague and subjective.

but the main thing is, and this is unavoidable with a telephone survey, is that the whole thing is biased by the differing probabilities of people (or more precisely, due to the methodology, entire households) with differing socioeconomic traits to be home to answer the phone. this is the major element of bias in the survey; i contend that lower socioeconomic groups travel less, go out less, and are thus more likely to have participated in the survey. and, i also submit that these groups are, unfortunately, more likely to have experienced [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url] and violence. so, i think all the results are overstated as compared to a true random sample of the entire population, which i admit is hard to come by; other methods such as mail surveys or street polls have other biases.

this is my analysis. take it for whatever you think it is worth. again, i stress that i am in no way minimizing the seriousness of this problem but only questioning the proportion of people who have experienced it. i think the study has some fairly obvious and identifiable weaknesses.

castrate all [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord127][CodeWord127][/url]. beat up all pimps. support your right to have sex with the consenting adult of your choice, including situations where both parties agree that money should change hands. [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140][CodeWord140][/url] on all politicians and religious zealots who think that your sex life is their concern.

your humble servant,

dickhead

well, there are ways to increase the reliability of telephone surveys, depending on whether they're quota-based or random, and to minimize the problems of getting representative samples. most of the surveys i've been part of that are not work-related have been conducted in the evenings to try to minimize the "who's at home" aspects. in point of fact, the economically lower classes and younger, single-parent families are more likely to be among that percentage of people who do not [i]have[/i] phones and are thereby not included, so i'd argue with your premise on that end of things to some extent.

this sounds more like a quota-based survey, (or a randomized survey using a quota-based approach) and as such faces the same issues of reliability as ftf field surveys. there are studies suggesting both that people are more and less truthful over the phone than they are face to face, especially when responding on sensitive issues, so the jury's out on that. i'd agree that the issue of men being interviewed by women and men is problematic, but i'd argue that would be more likely to affect the reliability of the men's results than the women's. i think it's a reasonable assumption that women would be more comfortable responding affirmatively to a woman on questions about [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url], given that that is the same presumption used by law enforcement and counseling centers, though i'm not sure at all what men would find more comfortable in that case.

i'm hardly holding this up as the be-all and end-all of surveys, as i've not done an exhaustive reading of the field, but its conclusions and numbers do track with other information on the subject, and the numbers are, in many cases, lower. it was clearly better than several others i saw whose questions i found more clearly biased and leading. i'm much more comfortable with the crime numbers from the un that i cited elsewhere, since those come from police reports and court documents, but they didn't break things down in terms of rate the same way. still, i've gotta believe that something with the department of justice imprimatur is at least more likely to be scrutinized for reliability than something some social scientist at random university cooks up, though i am generally not terribly impressed with social science research overall in any event. if anyone can point to something better i'd love to look at it.

i thought about pointing out the bias aspect of the fact that some people don't have phones at all, but i thought i might be splitting hairs since i recently read somewhere i think it was 98% of all (us) households have phones. but now that i think about it more, it raises two issues. number one, unlisted phones obviously weren't contacted, and those might (probably would, imo) tend to be people in higher socioeconomic brackets. number two, the study said it excluded businesses, which would presumably included hotels and motels. that might (probably would, imo) tend to be lower socioeconomic brackets. that makes me wonder if the 98% figure for people with phones includes those living in "monthly type" hotels/motels. i bet it does.

as a researcher, i think i would characterize this survey as both random and quota based. did you read the part about how they randomized the phone numbers and tried to get population proportions consistent with the geographic census distribution? i thought that was good. but the 800 men and 800 women seemed low given the duration of the survey. either they had very few surveyers (callers) or they threw out a lot of responses. they talked about how they threw out five male responses due to "excessive ambiguity" but then they also had these "screening questions." that bothers me, especially in light of the deal about women only being interviewed by women and men being interviewed by both men and women (suspicious of "selective screening").

now to this:

"but i'd argue that would be more likely to affect the reliability of the men's results than the women's. i think it's a reasonable assumption that women would be more comfortable responding affirmatively to a woman on questions about [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url], given that that is the same presumption used by law enforcement and counseling centers, though i'm not sure at all what men would find more comfortable in that case"

sure, maybe they would be "more comfortable responding affirmatively," but does that make it more accurate? or might they be telling the interviewers what they perceived the interviewer wanted to hear? i mean, the surveyers (callers) work for the researchers and i have been in academia long enought to know how that works!

really, i'd be less interested in being "right," and less interested in whether it is 1 in 2 women or 1 in 6 or 1 in 10 or 1 in 100 than i would be interested in how to get it to 1 in 1,000,000,000. i like a good fight like any mick but i never have and never will understand [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url] or wife beating, and i have studied it quite a bit.

but 1 in 4 is still too high. gives guys a bad name.

Hah, ok, now we really risk devolving into research weenies (like saying the actual US phone percentage is closer to 95%), so I'm just gonna hold my fingers away from the keys, even though I want to go further on methodology other than to say that...

I'll simply agree with your final sentiments, which I think are the most important side of the equation in any event -- my definition of a man has nothing whatsoever to do with getting your way by laying a hand on a woman or posing enough of a threat that she simply desists out of fear. That's not being a man -- that's being an asshole who deserves a good stomping.

http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/

Pretty sad. The content of this site would probably be best discussed under the 'Morality' thread, but I think that the people behind the site, San Francisco Women's Centers, are a good example of the negativity and myopic attitude of American women. Though, by name, the site should be an open minded forum for discussion and theorizing, it is actually just an all out attack on sex work. Pretty sad.

Yeah, while some of the things they have on the site might have some validity, it's completely impossible to give credence to any of it because their agenda so heavily invades everything. Trumpeting articles by Andrea Dworkin and having half of the research on the side coming from the organization's director (not to mention one look at their factsheet) says it all.

Okay. I guess I have too much time on my hands today, but the Dallas/Portland game has become boring and I can't pay much attention to it. So, here's an interesting stat from [url]http://www.bayswan.org/stats.html[/url]

[QUOTE][i]The National Task Force on Prostitution suggests that over one million people in the US have worked as prostitutes in the United States, or about 1% of American women[/i][/QUOTE]

Remember Fast Times At Ridgemont High when one of the characters says something like "If you put the vibe out to a hundred women something's bound to happen." Now we know that's a truism :)

Okay, here is a good article I showed a couple of foreigners who laughed at how American women can act and never endlessly, surprise us.

Now the question, is the American woman involved a poor, love sick and confused girl who misses her boyfriend or just some neurotic, self-centered b!tch?!?

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/West/04/29/crime.cruise.reut/index.html

HONOLULU, Hawaii (Reuters) -- A young woman who wanted to leave a cruise ship to return to her boyfriend in California spent Monday night in a federal detention center here, charged with threatening to kill everyone aboard the ship to cut the cruise short, authorities said

[QUOTE]Originally posted by incaroca
[i]Hi!!

I'm a guy from Barcelona (Spain), so, my level of english isnt the best...excuse me for that.

Well, I write here because Im very surprised with most of the mails that you have sended, about the shitty AW!
I explain you why I have this impression.
When I studied at the University, every year existed a colaboration between Universities of all Europe, and USA also. So, every new course you found a lot of people from diverent countries. We (well, I and a lot of men) waited with emotion how many american women were there! Why? For the simple reason that american girls were the easiest to convince to fuck!! Sure! Every girl maybe fucked 5 o more boys during the year (2 of them were my rates). They loved sex, well....maybe to stay with the most number of cool latinos, I dont know, and when they returned to USA, explain it to their friends!
So, thats the reason for my surprise! Maybe AW when they are out of their ultraconservativ country changed their mind, and want to be happy and feel free!!
AW even they were more sexual opened than nordic girls (Sweden, Danmark, for ex.).
Every year whe are fooled looking for american pussy!!! [/i][/QUOTE]

There’s a nice Onion article which has some interesting commentary on this phenomenon in their Point-Counterpoint series:
[url=http://www.theonion.com/onion3510/european_romantic.html/]
European men are so much more romantic than American Men vs American women studying in Europe are unbelievably easy[/url]

It’s archived so it should be accessible.

Angus, Incaroca, this is good observation.
At some extend these articles are correct.
Once I was in night club where were about 20 Philippines girls
They had birthday party.
I came to their table introduced myself and spend the whole evening with them.
They were shy but very friendly and clearly they had interests to men.
The biggest my surprise was that NO ONE Canadian man who were in nightclub didn’t come to their table during whole evening! And this nightclub was considered
one of the best places to pick up women in the city.
All these nice Philippines girls went home alone!
Can somebody tell me does such nonsense could happened in Europe?
Russian and Brazilian women who are living here tell me also that they had to make first step because AM too shy.
It is understandable, DH and others posters shows that it is not very pleasant experience to do first move here in North America. Everybody can become chronically shy if he faced so lot of hate from AW.
On another hand, The American women themselves is changing a lot then they go to other countries. I had seen how two AW became more and more exiting when the airplane
came closer to Cuba. After few days I had seen them with bunch of local guys kissing and hugging.
Seems AW know very well what they are doing. They know that they cannot full Foreign men playing stupid games. They come back here and play another games.
And average American Man accept it silently and help them to destroy himself.

Well, I certainly haven't become "chronically shy" by any means!

Lenin:

Good points. It's fascinating that both American men & women behave so differently when they travel beyond American borders.

While I surely don't speak for everyone in America, it's been my observation that the camps are divided thus:

AMERICAN MAN: "American women have too much mental baggage from womens' liberation & a politically-correct, litigous society. Might as well kiss a cobra."

AMERICAN WOMAN: "All American men are abusive pigs or passionless wimps. They don't listen, they're not honest, blah blah blah..."

This is a fantastic recipe for sexual repression. And this is one of the primary reasons I'm looking to go live in another country for a while. I need to catch up on lost youth and give my sexual self-esteem a real workout, haha! :D

Lookr, actually average AM don’t behave very different in other countries too.
They are much less confident than men from others countries.
I notice they have problem pick up girls in public places.
They mostly go to tourist places where prices already high.
In Cuba AM is favorite among Cuban prostitutes.
They know they cannot full so easily Russian or Italian men, for example.
It seems to me, the average AM have lowest self-esteem in the world.
HD, I am not argue with you, some exceptions exist of course.
Actually it is interesting to know how you managed to survive in such climate.
Some guys here in this forum suggested learning how to be even nicer to AW in order to improve situation. This is seems such absurd to me. It is mean to humiliate ourselves and destroy our own self-esteem even more!
I think we should do quite opposite. We should lower self-esteem of AW.
We should not miss the any opportunities to compare them with girls from others countries and tell them that average AW nothing but handicapped and garbage.
This is going to be good lessons for them.

Lenin -

About a month or so ago, we had a discussion moving with others on topics such as these regarding an American woman in comparison to an "average" non-North American woman (in a general sense, of course):

1) American women are more money-hungry or focused on materials (more mercenary)

2) Generally more fat and less feminine

3) More aggressive

4) Not as loyal

5) Boring, but expect entertainment from men

6) Suspicious of men in general - of men's intentions

7) Unappreciative (demanding, whining, manipulative and snobby)

8) Not that interested in sex - or use it mainly for manipulation

What would be some other common impressions to add to the list? Or, what are some of your current thoughts on the above issues?

Lenin-
Also, one of the things you talked about a lot was the difference in how men relate and bond with each other in Russia. They have much more of an alliance and openess in sharing their feelings and thoughts with each other than American men. They give each other much more emotional support and advice - almost like the bond that women seem to have in their expressiveness with each other. This allows Russian men to have more power in their interactions with women.
There is also a perspective of American men in Russia (I presume from both sexes) that American men are "fags", or something to this effect. It's for the essentially same reason Cuban women view American men as easy marks. To what extent is this view of American men in Russia? Is it common? Does the average Russian know the slang term for an American man - that basically means he's a wimp?

Jak, I cannot say about view of American men in Russia too much
I know that Russian women who live here like American men
because they think AM can be easily manipulated.
I want to add that problems 2) 3) 4) 5) 7) from the list
could happened in any country when women have low level interest to the men.
Just in reality, average women interest to men in other countries is relatively high and here in US very low as result of unbalance.
If something increase level of interest of AW to AM
all this problem would disappeared.
Problems 1) 6) and 8) is more looks like typically American problem.
I think they exist because something wrong with American culture.

There have been a few articles floating around in the major dailies & weeklies that discuss the trend towards American women being the major money-earners (the phrase kicked around is "Alpha-earner") while the men become house husbands.

I know a couple of guys caught in this trend, and their lives are a miserable hell. In fact, one of the guy's wives keeps threatening to divorce him because [insert inane reason here]. The other wife berates her husband constantly, telling him he's a no-good money-grubbing loser who can't keep a job (in his last job, which he kept for somewhere in the neighborhood of a decade, he rose to Senior VP).

Seems American women are only too eager to abuse the power of "alpha-earner." No guy I know acts that way to his wife (certainly not the two aforementioned guys). The only advice I've been giving them is for them to get jobs as soon as possible to get rid of the tension, and it's my secret hope that they get the hell out of those crappy relationships.

lookr,
I know one Brazilian man in Brazil who is not working
but his second wife is making a lot of money.
He is happy and most important he is in control of his wife.
He also lived quite happily with his first wife who
made much more money than him and they had five children
He never paid alimony to his first wife or to children.
Seems US is really rotten place for the men.
Guys, does anybody have positive stories about men in US?
Otherwise I am going to run away from North America soon.

Oh, please, I know tons of guys who are very happy with American women, from guys who've been happily married for 40 years to those who've been together only a couple of years. And those relationships range from "he's in charge" to "she's in charge" to "nobody's in charge." I could easily fill this board with stories about this, same as we can all have done with stories of breakups and being screwed over.

Given that the census says that between 45-50 of the total adult population is currently married to their first spouse (with variations by sex and race) and that the rate of the population those still on their first marriage tends to be over 50% once you look at those over 30, that means that a fair number of people are staying together. Even if you presume that half of those are unhappy marriages -- probably a high estimate, given that at least one study has shown that people with pro-divorce attitudes are more likely to be unhappy in their marriage, and that others have indicated the personal happiness of both men and women is higher when they're married -- then there are still a large number of people who consider themselves happily married.

Understanding that there's still a depressing failure rate, let's simply not paint with [i]too[/i] ridiculously broad a brush here. Here's a little bit of context by country -- divorces as percent of all marriages: Russia 65%, Sweden 64%, Finland 56%, Britain 53%, U.S. 49%, Canada 45%, France 43%, Germany 41%. (Source: Divorce Center, 2000 statistics.) And when you consider places like Brazil, you've also got to consider how heavily traditionally Catholic the region is, and the Church's strictures against divorce.

So it's not simply all about the U.S. and our crappy system, or our crappy women.

joe:

Good points. But I figure that if my odds of staying married are worse than my odds of winning big in a casino, then those are odds I simply won't play.

Now hobbying ... that's another story completely. :)

-- lookr

Fair enough, though since the odds of big casino wins are relatively low that's a pretty radical take on things, perhaps well grounded philosophically, but still kind of extreme. Me, I'm happy enough if the house edge on the game is reasonable, and it seems a game of skill rather than completely one of chance. I don't need to win everything, just not lose big. :)

I must agree with Joe_Zap in that there are some success stories in the American model of marriage. It would be unrealistic to say that all American relationships are bad and destructive. I think that what has happened here in America though is that our culture has domesticated the human male to the point that the women are the assholes now, if you understand what I'm trying to say. Also a lot of the American women I meet who are bad to men are bad to women too. Overall they are just bad people. Lately I've had more American women complain about American women than men have. I'm one that feels this country is only good for material and educational pursuits. I never have fun here anymore because I've tasted the "forbidden fruit." When I take a girl out in the U.S. and the meal must average $50 a plate to be acceptable and then I go to a country where for $50 (or less) women are licking out my asshole it's obvious that my outlook on America is going to be completely different. Sometimes I observe things in this country that I just laugh at now. Like I'm in on the joke on the American men because I've tasted this "fruit" and I know what the truth is.

Still, phil, with just about one in two American marriages ending in divorce, I'm unconvinced to run out & find a bride, especially in this country.

And I completely agree with you that American women have evolved into assholes. Just last night I went out to have some drinks with some buddies, and the women there (typical silicone-brained Silicon Valley types) simply could not stop talking about how much they could kick men's asses, from the boardroom to the bedroom.

The irony of this is that (a) these women were at least ten years older than me, and (b) they were trying to look ten years younger than me.

I laughed, too. :D

I feel there is a new division of labor in the sphere of male-female human relations here in the US.

If you want “legitimate” children get a wife.

If you want sex get a prostitute.

If you want affection get a dog.

These services used to be rendered by the same person, the wife. For various reasons these tasks have become specialized to different providers. This may or may not be a lamentable state of affairs – my guess is nobody here minds too much.

There may be anecdotal evidence that some AW fulfill all roles – however recent commentary (cited below) suggests that US marriages are increasingly becoming sexless, usually driven by the woman. Marriage is now primarily about the rearing of children.

“For many couples child-rearing has become not merely one aspect of marriage but its entire purpose and function. Spouses regard each other not as principally lovers and companions but as sharers of the great, unending burden of taking care of the children. “

The principle cause of this appears to be feminism:

“Given the curious alchemy of feminism, which transforms absolutely anything women choose to do into a crucial element of liberation doctrine, confessing that one has given up sex has become a very right-on and empowering act. “

As someone from the island of Lesbians has said: Lesbians have sex 4 times a month, married heterosexuals 2 or 3 times a weeks, and homo’s 4 times a day. The point being that there is a yin and yang – woman’s tendency is to want less sex, men’s to have tons more and the union of the two strikes something of a balance. Or it used to at any rate.

The balance struck was the quid pro quo of sex provided by the woman, for food and shelter provided by the man – though the actual compromise was not this crude, since the institution of marriage dignified it. The old balance no longer works as women can support themselves.

“Under these conditions, pity the poor married man hoping to get a bit of comfort from the wife at day's end. He must somehow seduce a woman who is economically independent of him, bone tired, philosophically disinclined to have sex unless she is jolly well in the mood, numbingly familiar with his every sexual maneuver, and still doing a slow burn over his failure to wipe down the countertops and fold the dish towel after cooking the kids' dinner. “

I guess this post doesn’t have a whole helluva a point but I aver that most any man contemplating marriage in the US faces the above mentioned providers for children, sex and affection, he is unlikely to get all three from an American Woman. Getting married isn't necessarily going to get an AM a whole lot of sex - which is fine if you don't go into it with that aim - which argues for the specialization.

For the 'poor married man' hoping for a bit of comfort I would recommend a long haired Collie.


Quotes from the Atlantic Monthly January 2003 article “The Wifely Duty” written by a relatively decent woman.

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2003/01/flanagan.htm

The evolution of the American woman is like a dominoe effect. In America, women are driven by greed because of commercials. Commercials say you must buy this and that to be "in" or to "fit in". They also manipulate minds with humiliation like making fun of stupid minor shit like blackheads. In fact in American television they air 4 to 5 commercials on a shorter break and the break in the middle of the show airs 8 commercials. In Brazil, they air 2 to 3 on a short break and 4 on a longer break. Europe airs 4 on a short break, 6 on a longer break. This society is totally consumption driven. This causes the American woman to want the $50 dinner, the pair of shoes or clothings every week, and the diamond rings. This greed also causes them to marry a husband just to use him to buy her everything even if she goes to work and make more for her. I have seen a wife making more money than a husband here and she still makes him save up his money just to buy her a gift on their "3 month anniversary". (Hello, anniversary is ONCE PER YEAR, not every 3 months). This was probably an excuse to make him buy her something she saw in a commercial.
Greed takes the focus off the sex in the marriage. Greed is the cause of women wanting ridiculous divorce settlements. It is the cause of passionless marriages as women marry just to divorce the husband to take half his wealth. She also gives up the relationship with one she is attracted to to go after the wealthy guy she doesn't like physically at all. Greed is the main premise of feminism. It causes their thirst for power and money. Also it is the reason why marriage has gone to the purpose of child rearing instead of completing the husband. Hey, the greedy woman needs an heir to her throne, right? The heir becomes the focus and she pays less attention to the husband.
About the divorce rate statistic argument, the reason the US has lower rate than Europe is because we are much less liberated. Men are afraid to divorce because of the fact that they lose everything in the process so they are stuck with their overweight wives. Europe is more liberated and the husband loses much less. Also the US is based on more Puritanical standards so the concept of "shame" comes to play. Europe knows much less "shame" so they think nothing of divorces. Divorces are lower in Brazil even though they also don't know "shame" perhaps because there are much happier marriages there and their wives fullfills the needs of the husbands. Rather than look at the statistics posted which could be flawed, I look at intentions. If American men are asked how many WANT to get a divorce rather than how many actually do divorce that are willing to lose half their stuff, the stats would probably be much higher in America than in Europe and South America combined.

gee -- greed, shame, and intentions. all so easy to posit and so hard to prove. so "intentions" are more important than behavior, huh? your argument falls into the "if you don't like a fact, ignore it" approach -- using fuzzy unquantifiable terms. if you want to argue "intentions" you might look at the percentage of both men and women who say they "want" to be married -- it's very high, and it's actually higher for men than women in many age groups. there are also [i]numerous[/i] studies that say that men are generally happier being married than women, have less marital frustration and dissatisfaction, and are [i]less[/i] likely to consider divorce. given that lots of sources claim more than three-quarters of both divorced men and women remarry, usually within three years after divorce, i find your "intentions" argument rather hollow.

i must say, darkseid, that i find your new take on divorce statistics highly disingenuous, considering that you've argued in the past that the us having the highest divorce rates is proof of the feminist and puritanical anti-sex strains running through society. now, since the real statistics don't support your contention, you've completely flipped, and we're too repressed and full of shame to divorce. c'mon! and divorces are lower throughout south america because it's [i]heavily[/i] and conservatively roman catholic -- 70% in brazil, 90% in argentina and chile, 95% in bolivia and columbia, etc. -- and the catholic church doesn't recognize divorce. (though more american catholics get divorced than elsewhere, since the us strain of catholicism is more liberal.)

look, i also prefer a $50 meal over a $20 meal because it's often a more unique and memorable meal in a better atmosphere. i prefer a $20 bottle of wine over a $5 bottle of wine because it's generally better wine. that hardly makes me greedy -- that makes me someone who understands the difference between mcdonalds and real food. that $50 spent on a meal with her is less about the money and more about romance and attention, and not understanding that equation explains both why she won't give it up and why things don't work in the relationship.

i happen to agree that there is greed in divorce settlements, but i disagree that it's simply about women wanting materials -- in many, many cases, it's about revenge for a marriage gone bad, it's about fear of a future where a primary wage-earner is gone (women do tend to be worse off financially than men in the years immediately following a divorce, primarily because men still tend to make more money) and it might also be about getting the focus of the man who's been seen not to be paying attention. two-thirds of divorces are initiated by women, who do so because they are unhappy with the state of the marriage, and let's face it -- they can therefore go into the divorce proceedings feeling aggrieved, which means they can be out for revenge and satisfaction. that said, let's also keep in mind that half of men and women describe their relationships with their ex-spouse as friendly or cooperative, so everyone's not walking around feeling abused by the process.

the whole greed thing doesn't completely make sense to me here -- it's simply less about that and more about attention. face it, a woman who's married generally has far more access to and control of her husband's income than an unmarried woman does the income of some man she's dating. women generally file for divorce because they feel neglected or emotionally abandoned, and this is why men end up being so baffled in the process, since someone leaving because of abuse or infidelity is easier to understand. but the complaint of many married women is that they are mostly ignored unless their husbands want food or sex. they want a soul mate, not a roomate, and that takes ongoing work and attention. men these days, on the other hand, are trying to juggle being a wage-earner -- which used to be enough -- with being a "partner" where you don't simply make all the decisions and lay down the law, and being a partner is a lot more work, especially for guys, who aren't in the habit of discussing everything until the paint peels off the walls, as women do.

btw, angus, nice post, and one i think contains a lot of truth. i'd merely point out that whether or not men are satisfied with their sex lives when married to aw, stats show that they still get sex more often than their unmarried counterparts.

Don't like marriage? Don't get married. Don't believe in divorce? Don't get divorced. Think homosexuality is wrong? Don't be one. Don't like American women? [b]Move![/b]

Or, you could bit@h about it.

Joe, you can't really rely 100 percent on the studies. Sometimes different environment or objectiveness can taint these statistics. There may be another study that proves the opposite that is what opinion is about. Most of these posts are definitely not fact but opinions the way various individuals see things. I agree with Angus on that women tend to want sex less than men and lesbians have much less sex than married couples and homosexual men. Another study might prove this statistic wrong and give good evidence of it. Single men might have more sex than married men in a more liberal country like Europe whereas sinlge men are sex starved in the small cities or suburban areas. Married couples definitely have more sex than single people in these areas because they just do each other while single people have no place to go for sex or meet people. In Europe or South America in a big city, they have FKK clubs or PartyTreff clubs where they just pay to get in and have sex every day or week whereas a married couple there might be sick of each other and not have sex often. They too might also use these clubs to find people other than themselves to have sex with.
The US has lots of suburban areas and more couples are happy with their marriages in those areas or just put up with each other because they can't find another partner. Europe has more big cities and in big cities there is more variety and therefore more divorce or infidelity. Other factors may come to play like wealth, health, children, religion, etc that may skew these statistics. Statistics should be taken in the same environment and same conditions for them to be true. For example, they should have statistics comparing divorce rates in big cities in Europe, South America, and US and separate them from divorce rates for the suburban areas. Perhaps this would tell a different story.

No, you can't rely on these studies absolutely, but they're a better guide than random opinions about marriage based entirely on personal anecdotal experience -- from someone who's never been married. (poke, poke :D) When there are several studies indicating the same thing, as there are in most of the instances I cited, then things can be said with somewhat more degree of assurance. And noting that a study doesn't break things down into the specific categories you prefer is a valid complaint, but it's not one that invalidates the information or somehow lends credence to your opinion.

Yes, posts here are opinion, mine most definitely included, but same as in any discussion there's informed opinion and uninformed opinion, and part of the measure of the persuasiveness of an opinion is how it can be backed up. I don't feel the need to defer to someone saying that the moon is made of cheese just because it's his opinion.

The United Nations has broken down divorce rates by country into rural and urban factors, but I've not been able to put my hands on that. I agree that generally the rate is somewhat higher in urban areas, but I don't agree with you that Europe has necessarily more people in urban areas or large cities -- some of that is a matter of definition by each country (Sweden and Denmark, for example, consider any place with more than 200 people to be urban, and the US says it's 2500. France, which uses 2000, still has about the same overall percentage of people in urban areas using that number as the US does using its higher number) and some of it is comparing apples and oranges, as "Europe" is a lot of very different countries, with different cultures, rates, and makeups, and twice the overall population of the US. Depending on what countries you're including, there are the same general number of cities over 750k in the US and Europe, for example. Higher population density overall in Europe, though, I believe.

Obviously, many factors affect divorce rate, from religion to availability of divorce (in much of southern Europe, for example, divorce hasn't been available as long as in the nordic region) to age to education and economic status. The same thing is true of how often people have sex, but it just seems to me that if someone is going to throw out general statements and expect them to be taken at all seriously, they ought to either be able to back them up, be very specific in those comments, or note that they're just "feelings" based on personal experience and how they look at the world as opposed to something necessarily having weight or relevance to other folks.

That's only my opinion, of course.

Divorce has only one cause, and that cause is marriage. B follows A, therefore A caused B. But seriously folks, isn't marriage an anachronism? Why risk it when out-of-wedlock births are becoming so acceptable? Here in the good old US (20 days and counting), you have the same legal obligation to support your kids whether they are out of wedlock or of wedlock.

Now that I write this, I am noticing the possible significance of the word "wedLOCK." As in "throw away the key"? As in "imprisoned"?

Marriage is an institution. Do you really want to spend the rest of your life in an institutuion?

Marriage is a tool of the ruling class.

[QUOTE]
But seriously folks, isn't marriage an anachronism? Why risk it when out-of-wedlock births are becoming so acceptable?

Marriage is an institution. Do you really want to spend the rest of your life in an institutuion?

Marriage is a tool of the ruling class.
[/i][/QUOTE]
Gotta hand it to the ruling class, they have a great sense of humor – now the state of non-marital bliss, aka domestic partnership is being treated as marriage when it comes to shafting the guy (‘she got the goldmine, I got the shaft’) when the thing breaks up. These are the new rules being pushed by the American Law Institute in their ‘Principles of the Law of Family Dissolution’ proposal [not a lawyer, but I understand these guys set forth guidelines for judges which because of the ALI’s influence gets treated as law].

The upshot is that not being married is no safety against being stuck with a whopping alimony payment (the main risk assuming you don’t have children) for one’s 3.75 years or however long of free sex (even though you weren’t married to her, and you cohabited precisely to avoid the cost of marriage).

The funny thing is you **can** opt out ie make it clear you were cohabiting for the free milk and not living in a state of quasi-marriage by doing a prenup type agreement. In a normal world that fact that you weren’t married would be sufficient and would be the default interpretation of one’s living together. However lawyers have worked it that the default condition is cohabiting is intent to establish a domestic partnership – and possibly resulting in a clean 50% split of your incremental earnings during the relationship.

It’s like you thought you had given the ‘social structure’ the slip instead they caught you at the pass ahead – the fact that marriage is dissolving as an institution has empowered feminists and lawyers to treat everything as marriage – including your male or female roommate.

Nowadays you could unwittingly be in a domestic partnership with a **male** roommate if you pass the 20 or so tests (even if your ‘partner’ is already married). But the law is really aimed at the transfer of wealth from men to women.

[url=http://www.law2.byu.edu/lawreview/archives/2001/3/War5-13.pdf]Deconstructing Family: A Critique of the American Law Institute's "Domestic Partners" Proposal
[/url]
has some interesting info about this – it’s a pdf in readable legal mumbo jumbo style]

Darkseid & DH,

Had a real life experience this weekend which supports many of your views of American women.

I was at a family party and I have about 4 nieces around 23-24 years of age. I overheard one of their conversations which dealt with one of my nieces who was going to break off her engagement and was asking one of her female cousins (who is in law school) how to break it off but still KEEP the ring. I had heard that the ring cost the guy over $5,000 and he had to take out a serious loan to purchase it. I hardly know how to respond to vile stuff like that. Geez!!!

You know, in the long run, I think that this poor guy losing $5,000 is money well spent in order to avoid getting married to a treacherous individual like my niece. If he married her, he'd end up losing a lot more than $5,000.

paddy:

wow, that's evil stuff, and what's even more astonishing is that it's fairly common practice. this is why i can't find the strength in me to even get engaged.

one guy i know who got engaged & eventually married was chastised by his wife that her engagement ring didn't have a big enough diamond on it and how it was going to ruin her reputation with her married friends. he had to go sink another $10,000 in the ring before she begrudgingly accepted it. :(

this is the same shite that keeps me from diving in to anything even remotely approaching marriage ... and i'm almost 36!

but, that said, i've always felt a kind of sadistic glee in knowing there are plenty of women i've pissed off by not doing anything like proposing and all that [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord134][CodeWord134][/url]-[url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord134][CodeWord134][/url] ka-ka. call it laser intuition, but these same women have turned out to be seething assholes in their eventual marriages.

and paddy, if there's any way you can tell your niece exactly what you think of her treachery, i think that'd really teach her a lesson. stuff like that needs to be pointed out ... at least in my humble opinion.

-- l

Don't get me wrong -- I'm not a marriage apologist, and I've got plenty of friends who've been badly burned by their experiences "inside." (One of my best friend's settlement from his marriage included getting the entire debt load from the bankruptcy his ex-had driven them into, while she got all the material possessions -- and she made as much money as he did. Took him eight years to pay it all off.) I just think such discussions are more powerful and convincing when they're not pumped full of wild assertions and false statistics. Clearly, the perspective of almost everyone here is that AW aren't worth the effort, and that marriage is a bad idea -- but a discussion where everyone agrees gets pretty boring and repetitive, which has happened here in the past.

I'm curious, Paddy -- what advice did the law school cousin give your neice?

Usually the girl will have to return the ring. Most but not all courts believe if there's no wedding the ring should be returned-doesn't matter who changed their mind.

Although things sometimes gets complicated.

Well, duhhh. I know what the general situation is, and that wasn't what I asked.

Oh really? I suppose you expect people here to know whether or not you knew the general situation.

joe_zop, when you ask someone what advice did a lawyer give so and so it can often be taken two ways : what is the law or what is the gossip between the two people. Looks like you were asking for the gossip.

I'm not quite sure which side I back on the engagement ring dilemma. (Yes, I've been married, but no, I didn't have an engagement ring - I even paid for my own wedding ring!)

One side of me says that if it cost heaps of money and she accepted it as kind of a 'promise' of marriage, and if SHE was the one that called it off through no fault of his...then perhaps she should give it back.

But the other side says, what if he screwed around on her, or he was the one doing the abandoning? Should she still have to give back her prized possession? Wouldn't it hurt a hell of a lot to know that he is just going to pawn it, or even worse, give it to his new girlfriend? And why should an engagement ring be any different to any other gift? Nobody would expect her to give back the stereo he bought her for Christmas or the bracelet he gave her for Valentines Day.

I'm really not sure what I would do in that situation.

It is difficult for the courts to decide as things can get nasty.

For example she might have broken it off but it was because he was screwing around. And so on.. It is hard to determine who's fault or who really broke it off or force the other person to say "I've had it" and break it off.

So pretty much it is no wedding no ring. Gifts like stereos etc. a girl gets to keep.

I don't give rings. I have to be got darn positive this is the girl I will marry otherwise it is just trouble.

The legal issue is whether or not a ring is a "conditional" gift -- with the condition meaning that marriage is to follow. That makes it different than a stereo or bracelet or anything else, which don't have the same promissory implications. When someone says "she returned his ring" it means something vastly different than "she gave him back the bracelet." It's a material symbol of an intimate bond, and has social implications, which a stereo doesn't.

Most courts have used this definition, and the issue comes down to who breaks an engagement. Traditionally, if a man [i]unjustifiably[/i] breaks the engagement then he isn't entitled to a ring's return but if a woman breaks it she must return the ring. The more modern trend says things are "no fault" (since it's often impossible to properly assign blame for a breakup) and it's not a conditional gift but a contract. If the contract isn't fulfilled, then both parties should be restored to their previous positions -- meaning the ring should be returned, unless the "donor" is in unjustifiable breach of contract, in which case fault might be considered. The whole idea of an engagement is a period of preparation, where each party has the ability to re-examine their promise before things become legally binding.

RN, your perspective is the older, traditional approach -- that a woman done wrong is entitled to compensation for being unfairly seduced, and thus suffering damage -- the "breach of promise" approach. There used to be lots of lawsuits based on this, so-called "heartbalm" suits, as the woman was now "unsuitable" for marriage to someone else. The rise of sexual freedom, feminism, and a trend to use such suits as blackmail helped shift the law toward the no-fault perpective that dominates today. It's really kind of a revenge approach, and if it's one to be used, then the question might justifiably be asked -- what should a guy get as compensation from a woman who breaks an engagement? Just getting back something you went in hock for hardly seems like a good deal -- you're still stuck with an expensive bauble and no marriage. If a guy has to cough up an $8000 ring because he abandoned her, should she have to give the ring back and buy him a car if she does the same? It's a very slippery slope.

(For what it's worth, I spent time years back researching this for a friend whose engagement went kaput, who was having trouble getting his ring returned. His ex was the one who ended things, not because he did anything but because she decided they weren't compatible enough. I ended up convincing her that she needed to return it -- one of my less pleasant duties as a friend.)

And DJ, I very specifically asked Paddy what advice a female cousin who was studying law said to another -- I didn't ask for a legal opinion, but a sense of how one woman gave advice to another who was clearly being greedy. If you're not sure what I know, and can't properly figure out the context, then why don't you just stay out of it? I've very studiously followed my promise to Skinless to ignore you to this point, despite your various pokes and gibes aimed in my direction, and I have zero interest in having any discussions with you.

I never gave my ex-wife (who is now in a mental institution) an engagement ring. I did give her a plain gold band at our (private) wedding ceremony. She lost it down the sink drain while she was kneading bread. I noticed she wasn't wearing it any more but I waited to see what she would say. Finally on our first anniversary she confessed that she had lost it. I told her I would buy her another one for our fifth anniversary. We never made it that far so I saved some money there, plus I never wore a ring (don't like to wear jewelry of any kind) so even further savings there.

The fact that a partially reasonable woman such as RN would even think of justifying not returning an engagement ring really scares me.

I remember seeing my mother flush her wedding ring down the toilet when I was a wee lad; the engagement ring she pawned. And my parents never even got divorced.

What a fucking crock marriage is. Please shoot me if I ever even consider doing it again.

Guys & RN,

As offended as I was by the actions of my niece, I thought that Lookr's recollection of a guy having to drop an extra $10,000 dollars into a ring before the girl would accept it is, well, a virtual obscenity.

I fully understand that this is a generalization but I guess we have a pretty firm idea of what really matters to American women. I think that I can also safely report that there is yet a whole new generation of young girls here who see dollar signs and status before love and genuine affection. They seem to be intrepidly carrying on the traditions of their mothers.

As far as her rationale for wanting to break it off with her boyfriend/fiance I don't know too much other than he is a beginning dental student and will be faced with many years of studying and debt. I met him and he seems like a real nice guy. Way too nice for a "viper" like my niece IMHO.

Joe, I wasn't privy to what legal or quasi-legal advice her cousin gave her. I've heard that the courts where I live don't want to get involved in something so domestic and trivial. So, my guess is that she can keep the ring. It would probably cost him thousands in legal fees to try and recoup his loss.

So, all is well here in the good old US of A and a whole new generation of young girls are intrepidly carrying on the traditions of their mothers.

I agree with darkseid that the reason the US has lower divorce rate than some other countries because Americans are much less liberated. Also because in America difficult to live for
man if he alone. You don’t need bitchy wife to have sex if you live in Europe or Latin America.
Here the man in many cases is just slave of his wife.
Joe_zop, what definition of the happiness for man in this studies? If American men have to cut of his friends
and his interest and to do that his wife telling him to do what kind of happiness is it?
This is just happiness of the slave.
And if men are generally happier being married in this studies than women it is just could mean that AM afraid to lose his marriage because he know that he is going to go through hell after divorce and he appreciate his marriage just like a slave, and AW know what she can get the better deal if she will be divorced or remarried that why she is not satisfied. She is not satisfied just because the bitches are never satisfied.
I am absolutely agree with darkseid that this statistic could be flawed.
Also it is difficult to find correlation between divorced rate and unhappy marriages.
What is better: to have two marriages and to live 75% time happy during
both marriages in Russia or to have bitchy American wife 100% time and afraid to divorce her because there are not much better options for men here in North America?
To clarify all these problems more sophisticated statistic is needed if such statistic could be done at all.
Exactly that why "feelings" based on personal experience could be more useful than unrelated statistics.
Personaly I got from darkseid much more useful and more correct information about situation in US than from whole bunch of useless statistics.

Lenin, in most of the studies I read happiness was self-defined ("rate how happy you are on a scale of x to y") so it's a general measure. Sure, it could be the happiness of the slave, but since most of these studies measure married and unmarried men and women, I think putting that particular spin only on the married man is a bit of a stretch -- one could just as easily say that unmarried men define themselves as less happy because they troubles getting fed as often as they like, or whatever. I've noted before the correlation between health problems for unmarried versus married guys -- with one researcher going so far as to say that life expectancy is more adversely affected by being unmarried than by being poor, overweight, or having heart disease -- so it might simply be that they're happier because they're healthier (or vice versa.)

There's a very new study (March issue of the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology) that looked at 24,000 people in Germany before and during relationships asked them about their happiness levels, and while people who were couples reported that they were happier, in general those same people reported before the study that they were happier. People got a bounce in happiness levels leading up to being married and in the early stages of marriage, and then dropped back to their normal levels, which were still generally higher that that of others. (Most people, btw, rate themselves between 5.5 and 8 on the scale of 0 to 10.) When those who define themselves as generally not very happy [i]do[/i] marry, they report more of a rise in their happiness level, the study found. This might be because they stand to gain more from the union than a happy person who has always had many social contacts. (This was a longitudinal study covering 15 years, with participants contacted yearly.)

From this we can conclude three things -- one, that perhaps marriage itself isn't the issue even though you get a bounce from it; two, that it's not simply an American issue; (and there are other studies that say the same thing is true in other countries) and three, that happy people tend to end up in relationships, where they continue to be happy.

So if you're a miserable fuck, you're probably going to be a miserable fuck in or out of a marriage, though your odds appear to improve on the inside. If you're happy, you're going to be happy, married or not. C'est la vie.

Studies are what they are, and they only measure what they measure -- if people want to denigrate them for not speaking directly to this or that point they're obviously free to do so. I seriously doubt this collection of bitchy guys is likely to influence research design all that much, since if the conclusions of the study don't support their point of view, they'll just come up with another flaw.

And I'd have no problem with Darkseid's perspectives on marriage had he ever actually [i]been[/i] in one, as testimony of the damned is eminently legit and eloquent, as Dickhead ably demonstrates. But otherwise it's like someone talking knowingly about prostitutes when he's never visited one.

Thanks, Paddy, it would have been interesting to hear just how the case might be made and the perspective of the cousin, especially since any social group, men or women, has a tendency to be supportive by default. As far as Lookr's story, well, such behavior is obviously grounds for walking away, and anyone who doesn't walk ought to know full well what they're signing up for. I'd have gotten the ring back and told her to explain to her married friends why I dumped her, though that's the easy perspective of one who's not infaturated -- we all know what kind of trouble we can get into when we're not thinking with the big head.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dickhead
[i]
The fact that a partially reasonable woman such as RN would even think of justifying not returning an engagement ring really scares me.
[/i][/QUOTE]
good point DH, this is just one more prove that woman is woman's natural ally

I'm only "partially reasonable", Dickhead??? LOL

Please don't get the wrong idea, though...I did say that I don't know which side I'd really stand on if it came to the crunch. I have never received an engagement ring, so I can't say for sure. All I was thinking of, in my "justification" for keeping the ring, was some of the women I've spoken to who have just been given one. You know the type...their lifelong dream of meeting Mr Right and walking down the aisle has just come true, they sit at their desks writing their 'married name' over and over (or even picking baby names!!), and they run around showing complete strangers their new engagement ring, grinning from ear to ear. I was just thinking how soul-destroying it would be if, through no fault of her own, she was suddenly dumped and not only had all those dreams of married bliss dashed, but also had to give her ring back. It wasn't so much a matter of "compensation", as Joe suggested - I just feel sorry for women in that position.

In all honesty though (and maybe this shows I'm a little too "reasonable" for my own good!!), if roles were reversed and *I* was the one giving the engagement ring, and *I* was the one doing the dumping - then I would let the guy keep the ring. In fact, it would never have crossed my mind to ask for it back in the first place. Call me a softie, but that's how I feel.

Oh and for the record - I, personally, have no need for an engagement ring. Why should a man have to buy me an expensive trinket as "proof of his love"? Isn't the fact that he asked me to spend THE REST OF HIS LIFE with him, proof enough???

And Lenin - Of course, as a woman, I am going to always speak from a feminine point of view, but I would never back up a woman JUST because she was a woman. I would have to firmly believe that she's right. I hate bitchy, catty, materialistic cows as much as you do.

Many years ago . . . more than I like to think about, I broke up with my 1st girlfriend due to her sleeping with some other guy after requiring me to be faithful. Yet she did keep the ring. It didn´t really bother me at the time. What was I going to do with it? Sell it? Give it to someone else? But what bothered me much more was her seemingly irrational need for the ring in the first place. The ring had more importance than I did. Very common with young love . . . the White Dress syndrome. But we were both a lot less jaded then. I wonder what the hell SHE did with the ring? She´s married now with 2 kids. Maybe I´ll ask her . . .

Joe, I admit I haven't actually been in a marriage but I have been engaged and it is like a preview of marriage. If my experience with being engaged with a bitchy fiancee was bad, marriage would probably have been worse. I agree that I have not experienced marriage personally but I have enough divorced friends and relatives who tell me horror stories of it. It is like seeing someone get third degree burns all over his body and just by seeing that victim, you know that what he went through is the worst thing to happen to him in the world. The burn victim experiences pain from the burns, and even worse, disfigurement. He is like an outcast whose identity has been erased. He also loses his abilities. You wouldn't want to experience it yourself by jumping into a fire or lighting yourself up. I've seen more guys get screwed by marriage than guys going through happy marriages. Everyone who is married or divorced tells me not to do it. This feeds my fear of even considering marriage and yes, I AM scared of getting married because the consequences seem greater than the rewards.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dickhead

"The fact that a partially reasonable woman such as RN would even think of justifying not returning an engagement ring really scares me. "

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lenin
[i]good point DH, this is just one more prove that woman is woman's natural ally [/i][/QUOTE]

Dickhead and Lenin, I don't think RN's viewpoint is due to the fact that she is a woman, and would support other woman in such cases. She herself said she sees both sides of the issue.

There are many instances where I think it is highly debatable whether a woman should give the ring back. As mentioned, what if the guy fools around and found someone else while the girl's family are preparing for the wedding? The family have to suffer the embarassment of having their daughter dumped and still have to give back the ring? Maybe. Or say the guy moves into the woman's apartment and because he spent money on the ring, she said she'll pay rent for now. There are many other senarios but it's kinda ugly and I'd rather not get into it.

For one thing, though the court normally says that she have to give the ring back, imagine the complexities of enforcing that. First of all, do you want to take your ex fiancee to court over a ring? Wasting your time and hers? And she may call her sister, mom etc to testify against you?

Secondly even IF you win the case, the court awards you the ring but does not help you collect it. What are you gonna do? Call her everyday to ask for it back?

But if the woman finds a better guy, perhaps she should give the ring back-if the guy really want it back.

If it were me and I gave a ring. I doubt I'd ask for it back if it means something to the girl.

joe_zop, when someone asks a question on this forum, it is not unusual for people to step in and answer. Other people want to know the answers too. If you don't like it, tough luck.

I don't blame skinless for telling you to not engage in me, I TOLD you to not engage in me. Then you came back at me like a mad dog on another thread DJ you $%^&. And I said :haven't you had enough? And you went on. Later even when no one was argueing with you you were talking to yourself "I'm going to ignore DJ". BTW, skinless also agreed with me some stuff you were writing is bourgeois crap.

I'm pulling my punches. Now let's all get along:). It's better to be my ally than my enemy.

-DJ

Hey Darkseid,

I agree totally. I recently read a major study from the University of Michigan (my fair alma mater) which indicated that approximately 50% of marriages in the US end in divorce in 2-5 years. Furthermore, and I thought that this was very significant, they found in their samples that another 22% were profoundly unhappy and dysfunctional and that these people SHOULD be divorced. So, you have about a 28% chance of having a good or acceptable marriage. That's about a 1 in 5 chance of experiencing marital bliss (however you want to define marital bliss). 1 in 5 are pretty lousy odds.

On a personal level, none of my guy friends are happy being married. A famous Irish writer once referred to a bachelor as "... a lad who never made the same mistake ONCE."


RN,

Yes, an engagement should be a type of "trial" period. However, once the rings are purchased, deposits are put down on halls, dresses are ordered, etc., SOO much money has been spent that there is almost no way to back out. That was the primary reason why I hung in during the so called "engagement. "

BTW, I loved your description of the girl with the new engagement ring showing it to everyone including complete strangers, etc. Your descrption of the whole scene was both witty and highly accurate.

OK, RN, your last post seems fair so I will upgrade you from partially reasonable to generally reasonable. Paddy, maybe time for some other college, at least for math. 28% is greater than one in four and is closer to one in three than one in five. But then I was a history major so WTF do I know. Go Spartans.

Here's a good one on rings. I have a friend who has twice married women he's only known a short time. The second one he only knew for a few days. He spent I think it was $8,000 on her ring, on credit with "easy monthly payments" that were killing him. Perhaps unsurprisingly, the marriage didn't last. It was partly because I elected to take him to a strip bar. He'd never been to one in his life, or so he said, and he hooked up with one of the strippers and didn't come home for a few days. His wife, whom I'd never actually met, was calling me constantly until I finally had to tell her to fuck off.

Anyway, while they were going through the divorce process, he showed up at her apartment and gave her a big bullshit story about wanting to get back together, give me another chance, you are the love of my life, blah blah blah. He fucks the hell out of her and then she goes to take a shower. He goes in there while she is naked and soapy, physically yanks the ring off her hand and runs out the door, leaving her naked and screaming. He returned the ring and made a settlement with the jeweler. Later in court, it turned out she hadn't listed the ring on the property declaration so there wasn't jack shit she could do about it.

I think my friend still ended up out about $2,000 with the payments and the settlement. Now he is living with some doctor who makes a lot of money and he hasn't worked in years. What a douche bag. His first wife, whom he knew for I think six weeks before he married her, left him for another woman.

Dickhead, thanks for the laugh -- that's a hilarious story. Can't imagine why women don't think highly of us...

Just as an aside -- is there any other industry that can manage, as the diamond monopolists have done, to define what percentage of your income you ought to be spending on a luxury? Two month's salary? Try having a conversation with many women about the silliness of such a "rule" and you get absolutely nowhere. Weddings are to women what watching sports are to men -- something the other sex simply can't get into, tries to negotiate into some degree of reasonable, and ultimately just has to put up with.

Paddy, can you point me to some information on that study? It runs counter to all the others I've read, and it's certainly doesn't agree statistically with the census bureau in terms of the number of marriages ending that quickly. Sorry to hear about your friends -- my experience is the opposite; my friends are a mix of the happy and unhappy that pretty well matches up with the basic statistics. And when I ask some of the unhappy ones if the'd rather get out of the marriage, many will also say, no, they're just bitching. 'Course, that's often typical of guys, too, given how at times secreting and hard to read we can be about emotions -- they could just be bitching, or they could end up divorced in a week. I'd also note that I've got a fair number of friends who are miserable with being single, as well as those who are happy with it.

Darkseid, perhaps your experience with a fiance was a preview of a bad marriage, but that's still not the same as actually living with someone over time, and seeing a burn victim still isn't the same as being one. And if we want to follow that metaphor down, (and I agree that it's a dramatic and sometimes apt one, and that many guys do walk around disfigured) the basic problem is that you tend to say that anyone who lives in a house where there's a gas stove ends up a burn victim. That's just an exaggeration -- yes, those who get burned have it bad, but not everyone ends up with third degree burns. And don't get me wrong -- I've got no problem with your making comments on marriage, as that's clearly your right; it's just that they're almost always knowing and blanket statements, and if you're going to turn things into black and white as opposed to many shades it seems fair to question qualifications. Again, maybe it's a New York City or big-city thing, but I just don't see the same level of vitriol and crispiness out here in the heartland.

RN, I have to say that a fair number of the brides-to-be that engage in the behavior you've eloquently described seem to me to end up being disasterous wives, as they're often more in love with the idea of being brides than they are with the guy they're hooking up with. Once they get hitched, reality tends to creep into the equation for the first time, and it doesn't always look like the magazines they've been reading. The problem for some of these brides is that there tends to be a real marriage that follows the dream wedding. I've got several nieces who were exactly this way, and it didn't matter how much anyone talked to them, they couldn't be dissuaded into actually looking at reality. All but a couple of them ended up divorced pretty quickly.

And screw you, DJ -- Skinless tried to make peace because he felt we were counterproductive, not because you're something fearsome. A very typical misreading of the situation by you. You're nothing dangerous, you're just a bonehead who can't read very well and thinks he's about ten times smarter than he is, whose chief talent seems to be chasing people out of sections via repeated attacks. Your "warning" meant nothing to me at the time, and means nothing now, nor does your conveniently twisted version of events or your monumental ego. (Not to mention your even more obnoxious claim that you'd somehow "changed" my behavior, as though I'd ever make a change in reaction to something a fool like you did. I change my behavior or my opinion based on reason or persuasion, not grade-school idiocy.) You started things out of the blue in the first place with a personal attack, and complain because it didn't end just because you royally proclaimed you'd put in the last word. Whoop-de-do. I don't have to end something just because you say so -- you want it ended, then post an apology in the appropriate section for attacking me in the first place. Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, it ends whenever I feel like it, fuck you, and I'm going to react anytime you get in my business.

I'm sure as hell not going to be your "ally" as that implies you can trust someone if you turn their back on them. A snake is a snake, even if it's a snake that hisses constantly that it's really a big scary lion.

ERROR MESSAGE:

When I re-read my earlier posting, I made a small but perhaps significant typing error. When I stated that the University of Michigan study concluded that you had about a 28% chance of a good or satisfying marriage, I typed those odds as being 1 in 5. Of course, mathematically, 28% is close to about 1 in 4. Sorry. I hit the 5 key when I meant to hit the 4.

Having taught statistics for many years I felt compelled to correct my error. I used to burn students for mistakes like that and now I engage in them. Must be a senior moment or something. Endless apologies.

Paddy

DH,

Just read your last posting. That has to be one of the funniest stories I've read in a long time.

If my niece's fiance ever tried that she would not only whip his ass in the shower but she'd then have him arrested and jailed for assault and battery.

More on rings. Yesterday I went to a baseball game with my two best women friends. I noticed the non-married one (a Gopher) was not wearing her "engagement" ring. She has been "engaged" for about six years now, having called off the scheduled wedding due to seeing her BF groping her drunk and virtually passed out bridesmaid (to be) and good friend while the bridesmaid was up for a weekend to pick out dresses and etc. She told me that she wasn't wearing her ring because she was having the stone replaced with one she liked better. Then the married one (a Spartan) chimed in with her story of having the stone in her ring that hubby had given her replaced with a stone from a ring she inherited.

I asked them how their BF or husband felt about them doing this and they both responded that they hadn't asked them! This would [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140][CodeWord140][/url] me right off if I were the guy in question. Another strange thing is that this made me realize that the married one never wore her wedding ring, only her engagement ring. Now I don't know about the rest of you but I never knowingly screw married women, or even bother to flirt with them, but am willing to hit on ones who are merely engaged for practice if nothing else. I voiced this philosophy to my friend, who knows me very, very well, and she said she thought she did get hit on more because she just wore the engagement ring, and that she rather liked this.

I don't think the married one would ever cheat on her husband (a very good friend of mine), but the other one cheats all the time, including with me sometimes (I don't like her boyfriend much at all). I make her take her ring off every time I screw her just to remind her what a tramp she really is. Women are pretty strange.

Hey Paddy, you know you can edit your postings. I wouldn't even have pointed out the mistake if I weren't such a Dickhead. Go Wolverines.

I agree that rings are an important indicator, though it's surprising at times for what -- a couple of my single friends wear rings because they say they get hit on more by women when wearing them. When I've worn a ring I've had the same experience. I'm absolutely with you, DH -- I'd be pissed if someone changed stones in an engagement ring I gave them, unless there was already a marriage ring exchanged. Once the marriage has happened, it's truly her ring to do with as she pleases, but before that it's more like a deposit or collateral. (I'd probably still be pissed if it was done without talking to me, though.)

Again, Paddy, I'd love to track down that UM study, especially since I just read another from Rutgers directly contradicting the conclusions you report. This includes a chart over time of married people over 18, broken into male and female, who indicate that their marriages are "very happy." While it shows a decline of about 5% since the 1970s, it pegs the rate at over 60% for both sexes, with men consistently scoring higher than women. ([url]http://marriage.rutgers.edu/Publications/SOOU/TEXTSOOU2002.htm[/url]) Seems high to me, especially for a "very" response, but so it goes, and the methods and measures are probably different between studies. Even though Americans are now less likely to marry than they were thirty years ago, around 55% of all those in the US over 15 are married at any given time (a couple of percentage points higher for men), with the number between 35 and 44 hanging around 70% for both men and women. If close to two-thirds of them say their marriages are "very happy" then those who are truly unhappy are in a clear minority. My math says using these numbers that around 45% of [i]all[/i] men between those ages describe themselves as being in a "very happy" marriage. If [i]that[/i] is actually true, the odds aren't nearly as bleak as one in four. I'd presume this number has to include those who get it right the second time.

My understanding of the 50% divorce rate is that it means that half of all marriages are expected to end in divorce before the marriages break up through death. I can't find anything anywhere that says half of all marriages fail before five years are up.

My married friend had been married for years before she changed the stone but it would still [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140][CodeWord140][/url] me off. I think??? Ahh, how the hell would I know. I just think it's strange to change your ring that your lover gave you, and it might hurt his feelings. Good thing I'm a Dickhead and don't have any feelings.

Hi Joe,

The information came from the highly respected and often quoted University of Michigan Institute for Social Research. I read the summary results in USA Today I think. I, too, was a bit startled and taken aback by their findings.

The summary statistics you mention are what I usually hear and personally believe. Maybe the differences are in the demographics or the stratified random samples in their studies. Who knows?

One last thing. A good friend of mine is a divorce lawyer and he has to refer many new clients to other divorce and family law lawyers because he's overwhelmed with work.

I think it's really sad that so many of you would avoid marriage based on statistics or other people's experiences. It wouldn't matter if the facts stated that only one out of 10 marriages were happy - there is nothing to say that YOUR marrige won't be that one out of ten!

I had a godawful marriage, a horrendous drawn-out divorce and then almost 2 years of stalking and harassment followed - not to mention being left with thousands of dollars worth of HIS debts. What does that prove about marriage in general? Absolutely nothing. It only says that for myself and that particular man, at that particular time in my life, getting married was a very bad decision. I could go down to the shop this afternoon and meet the man of my dreams, and live happily ever after! I did not enjoy being married, and I do not feel the need to be married at the moment - but that may change one day, when the time (and the man) is right. My parents have been VERY happily married for over 30 years, as have the overwhelming majority of my other relatives. Even if half of all marriages end in divorce - it still means that half of them don't. Don't be so cynical!!

And I've said it before and I'll say it again...if having to spend 10 grand on a ring, thousands on a wedding and then losing everything you own in a divorce settlement is what is keeping you away from marriage- STOP DATING SUCH MATERIALISTIC WOMEN!!! LOL

Thanks, Paddy -- I earlier spent a couple of hours on UM's ISR site the past several days without finding such a study, which would seem like something they'd highlight, so I've got to suspect part of this might be USA Today's usual less than accurate summations (something I say with regret, having taken money from Gannett Co in the past.) I may give ISR a call, since they're local to me and I know a couple of folks there. I've no doubt that divorce is still all-too-prevalent and far higher than it was when I was a wee lad; I simply think in the same way that we tend to see the horrible and spectacular on the evening news that sometimes the things that are most usual and normal get short shrift in the reporting. Bravo for your friend -- having dealt with lawyers of many stripes, I'd bet his state of being overwhelmed is due to him being good at what he does more than anything; I know tons of lawyers who can't buy clients (and that's what they should probably do, in reality :))

RN, thanks for your take on things, as someone who's been through the opposite side of the wringer. All the people who go to casinos know that they're gettting less than 50% odds, but that doesn't really stop anyone because the possibilities are just so alluring. My take on things is this -- while any of us can certainly screw up just about anything, and for most of us what we want has little correlation to what we truly need, the bottom line is that if you do it right you've only got to be correct once. If not, you can do it over and over and over and still end up fucked. I wish you good luck on your afternoon trip to the shop, and if not that trip, then tomorrow's.

That's not an argument about marriage, but about attitude, and in that it's the same argument I've made since I first came on this board -- good situations (or bad) are as much about perception and attitude as anything else. This goes back to the study I quoted a while back that says that people tend toward their native levels of happiness/unhappiness.

RN, almost all women in the New York City are materialistic and I guess all the greediest bitches flock to this city. I can't avoid these women unless I travel out of the city and perhaps into the heartland. Joe, I agree that perhaps I am having these problems and fears BECAUSE of the types of women I meet in NYC. I could try bringing a woman from the heartland with me to the city but I still have to question her motives. Does she like me and want to be with me or is she really one of those materialistic women that are drawn to the city and would take half your stuff after they marry you and divorce you. It would be different if I LIVED outside the city and met and married a woman outside the city because her motive is pure in that she is staying outside the city because she wants to be with you.
BTW, Joe, what part of the USA do you live in?

joe_zop, you've been sending me email virus and worms. You think I don't know it? Shame on you!

You started doing that 2 and a half months ago during our last altercation and continued for a few weeks. Sometimes 2 or 3 emails a day. Then you started again a few days ago. Very few people ever email me at that account, I only get 1 or two emails a day. None of my 4 other email accounts got such email virus. You're trying to crash my computer? I have firewalls and anti-virus. You are pathetic, self-righteous, self-important and you're a joke.

We all know you have no life. You're on the internet 24 hours a day. You carry around your English language like a security blanket. Just like you always have to mention your "laptop", just to make sure we know, gasp, you have one(the guys in Thailand section are laughing). In this day of computers and electronics, you're English may cut it in Chiang Mai but not in New York or even Los Angeles.

Darkseid, I agree you're in a tough spot -- I'd definitely not want to be dating in NYC; if you're there you've got to have a little shark in you somewhere to survive, more if you're to prosper, which usually isn't a great thing in a relationship. It's simply tough when motive ends up being a primary litmus test.

As I recall, you're not quite at geezer status, so there's plenty of time to find someone if that's what you want to do -- the median age for first marriage in the US for men is around 27, and most studies also indicate that the older you are when it happens the more likely the marriage will last. The divorce rate is highest for men in their early twenties and women in their teens, though the total numbers are higher ten years later (higher percentage of people being married at that point.) A couple of the stats I've seen say the percentage of people first married over the age of 25 who get divorced drops to under 25%. Given that you're mobile and your economic status is decent your odds improve further. All this presuming, of course, that you were even ever interested in getting married -- stats say you're fairly typical these days, with three times as many people choosing to remain single as before 1970. It's just a different world -- 53% of households in the US are headed by married couples these days, compared to 61% in 1980 and 78% in 1950.

And I'm near Paddy's alma mater in Michigan, where the divorce rate (and suicide rate) is higher than that of New York -- which is actually tied for fifth-lowest. Of course, New York stats are about the state as a whole, so the independent nation of NYC gets lumped in with snowed-under Buffalo, much to the usual chagrin of both. :)

DJ, you're seriously warped. I don't know your email address, have no interest in it, and I've never emailed a worm or virus in my life. You're a laughable mosquito, and not worth the time or effort it would take in any event. If you're such a protected technical genius, I challenge you to support this contention with fact -- post some evidence or email it to Jackson. That's just more typical self-centered paranoid crap from you, padded now with slander.

You've never "saved" me from a thing or person, and I referenced supporting you exactly one time, and that was during your attack on me. Hilarious that you consider my discussion with bigbucksdude on SARS neverending, given how long you went on about ladyboys in the same section. Wasn't it you who suggested a section on SARS to Jackson as a way of helping people decide whether to travel? How many cases of SARS have there been in Thailand since I chastized him for spreading paranoia?

And naturally your personal analysis is as full of crap as everything else. Not even worth addressing. Talk about pathetic.

Perhaps you'll favor us all with more astoundingly deep, useful and non-obvious information, like the fact that there are good restaurants in Bangkok. Or proclaim to us all again that Dick Johnson was to first to notice that the sun came up this morning. Wow.

Talk about pathetic and self-righteous. Add deranged and you describe yourself.

darkseid:

Silicon Valley has the same problem with materialistic women, too, though the economy has seen an exodous of these callous cows to greener pastures.

And I completely agree with you on the motive factor. Of course, this could be applied not only to Rural American Wimmins, but women anywhere else.

It's ironic that I may be moving to Indiana for a few months. If that happens, I'll give you an update on Rural American Wimmins.

VIVA RIO!!

-- L

Darkseid must [b]really[/b] hate New York now that he's been to Brazil! Can't see why he doesn't just move, although I know he's explained his reasons before. I spent some of my teenage years in CT and I used to troll for hookers in NYC. The Avenue of the Americas was also good for wandering around while under the influence of LSD. I kind of liked NYC, although I haven't been back there in 25 years.

Now RN, in my case I had a mediocre marriage in hindsight (started off well but went downhill pretty fast, but my wife was more disturbed than I really realized at the time) and a very easy divorce that cost me nothing financially, so my lack of desire to get married again has nothing to do with materialistic cows. I just don't see any point to it. However, I certainly don't see lots of happy marriages like JZ does, nor do I see any among my relatives. I suppose one of my sisters' marriages is OK although very boring (but she is heavily into boring). My other sister is on #2 and I just visited them and their marriage stinks. Of course he became impotent and pretty much disabled so that could be a factor (unemployable too). My brother got married at 18 and will soon have his 40th anniversary but his wife is a shrew and he screws around on her all the time. My parents' marriage was God awful although my older sibs say it was good at one time. Grandparents' marriages were terrible, aunt's terrible ...

Now I am a person who moves quite easily among different social classes and social circles, plus I have spent time in both the blue collar world and the white collar world, and I have lived in quite a few different states (not including states of denial, etc.). This, I believe, has allowed me to view a good cross-section of American society. I would put the percentage of marriages which do [b]not[/b] end in divorce but are happy as maybe 30%, so considering half [b]do[/b] end in divorce and were thus at least presumably fairly unhappy, the chance of any given marriage being and [b]staying[/b] happy is about 1 in 6. Maybe a bit higher given that I have never really lived in rural areas which I know to have lower divorce rates, but still not very good odds.

Then I look at my four close women friends, two of whom I have been to bed with at some point, and ask myself if I would want to be married to any of them. Three definite nos and one maybe, and these are the best women I know. Would I marry my Argentinean amigovia? Definitely no.

Maybe I will marry a Méjican hooker so I can claim her on my tax return and split the money with her.

DH, your post brings up an interesting issue. You mention that your brother's been married for nearly 40 years, and that things are now pretty much a mess. Any sense of how long things were good?

And to follow in your footsteps -- my parents had a happy 18-year marriage, cut short when he died, my oldest sister is on her second, in which his happiness is mostly solid and hers is marginal (I'd sure as hell not want to be married to her), one of my brothers never married and the other has been in two absolute nightmares, including one that sounds like yours, complete with her attempting to kill him before she was institutionalized) and the second one from which he's in the midst of extracting himself, the middle sister has been in a very happy one for sixteen years, and the youngest sister ran through her first very quickly (picture two people, both with IQs in the 160 range, who feel they simply have to settle the issue of who's smarter every day) and is in heaven in her second, which recently passed the ten-year mark.

The issue your post makes me think about is this -- what's the line for defining a success in a relationship to most people here? Does it have to be forever? Until someone croaks? Is anything short of that not worth it? Ten years of ecstacy followed by ten years of boredom? Would twenty-five years of having everything work great, followed by two or three years of breaking up be success or failure?

I guess I wonder about this when I see that the average first marriage that ends in divorce lasts about eleven years -- I keep trying to figure out, given other things in life, like how long we have a job, live in the same place, etc., just how much of a failure that actually is. Especially when I think about how I've personally changed as years have passed.

I think my brother's marriage had problems from the start but I would say they were moderately happy for ten years or so. That is another case of two people with IQs in the 160 range battling over who is smarter, plus very healthy doses of passive aggression.

My marriage wasn't really affected by my wife's insanity as it did not overtly manifest itself until after we were divorced. The relationship overall was seven years and the first four were pretty darn good. I don't consider the overall relationship a failure; we both learned a lot and I at least was pretty unscarred by the breakup. She recently told me she would have been a lot better off if we had stayed together (she is divorced a second time) but I'm sure I would have fled when the bipolar thing manifested itself.

I think many marriages that end in divorce were perhaps overall successes; that is why I think people should get divorced when things have turned obviously and permanently sour, rather than "staying together for the kids' sake" or stupid crap like that. I think a lot of pretty unhappy couples stay together for financial reasons, fear of the unknown, or just plain inertia and I think that is a big waste of life.

But again I say marriage is an unnecessary anachronism at this time. It is an archaic concept and I don't think we can have archaic and eat it too.

I once read somewhere (okay, it's a book called "The Road Less Travelled" by M. Scott Peck) the following wisdom:

It's easy to fall in love, but it's just as easy to fall out of love, too.

Makes sense to me. I guess the trick is to make sure the couple can stay together once the honeymoon's over.

-- L

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dickhead
[i]The relationship overall was seven years and the first four were pretty darn good. [/i][/QUOTE]
I had 8 years LTR with Russian and 5 years with Brazilian women
Practically they were marriages because we lived together.
I had first 4 year relatively good and 4 year very bad with Russian and 4 year excellent and 1 year not good with Brazilian.
Is anybody else thinking 4 year is magic number? I notice what evil sitting in any women doesn’t matter how smart or kind she is. It is only question of time when this beast raises his ugly head. From my experience I have impression that women genetically programmed, exactly like robots. The relation started with love from the woman so strong that you often think that you are not deserved such love and finish with unexplainable hate that clearly you are not deserved.
3-4 years are enough time for child to grow up to run and hide in the cave in case of
danger or recognize his friends. After that woman probably programmed to have sex with another man to increase overall chances for all her children from different fathers
to survive. If such biologic cycle really exists then marriage is one of the most stupid things that created by humans.

Ordinarily Lenin is a bit too much of a troglodyte for me but he may have a point here. It might not just be relationships. I notice 4 years is about the point where I want to change jobs, allegiances to sports teams, and underwear. Also that is how often we hold presidential elections in this country and studies show (and no I don't have the links to my sources and I don't give a shit that I don't) that two-term presidents consistently have lower approval ratings during their second term.

I have suggested in the past that perhaps marriage should be a contract like sports contracts: for a certain period of time and then with "option years." Hey, why not? Then both parties could periodically evaluate where the relationship was going; that seems like a good thing to me. If one or both parties wanted out, the potential for a clean break seems higher. The possibilities to "save face" seem higher.

Forever seems like a very long time to me and "'til death do us part" has an inherently unattractive element to it from my point of view. Also think of the possibilities of saying for example, "Hey baby, feel liking getting married for a year or so?"

People just get sick of each other after a while sometimes. It isn't anybody's fault. Like I would marry Rubbie for one year (well, how 'bout six months???), sight unseen. How bad could it be? No money involved of course :)

Out of all my parents, grandparents, aunties, uncles, siblings and cousins - I am the ONLY one to ever get divorced so far. I guess I can't be positive that all the couples are still happy, but I'm pretty sure of it. They still do all those little things, like absentmindedly touching each other in public, finishing off each others sentences, stealing food off each others plates...those things that say they are totally comfortable with each other. I grew up with that around me all the time. Maybe that's why I still have a bit of a soft spot for marriage. :) (It's also probably a lot to do with having a 'traditional' rural upbringing).

I'm with you, Dickhead, when you say that marriage is probably unnecessary. As marriage is no longer a case of signing over a father's 'property' to another man, or celebrating the joining of two countries and their armies, I guess it doesn't serve any real purpose. But I still kinda like the idea. To me, a marriage proposal signifies true commitment. Not the wedding ring, not the name change, not the piece of paper that declares you husband and wife, but the proposal. For a man (or woman) to propose, it means they must have sat down and thought "Do I want this woman by my side for the rest of my life? Yes." And to go through with the wedding confirms he meant it. (I suppose that makes me either hopelessly romantic, or cynical and untrusting of people's motives).

Wow DH...I've gone from partially reasonable, to reasonably reasonable, to marriage material, in only three days?? LOL

You need to become a witch. You probably already know this - being a history major and fellow shouter-down of all things Christian - but pagans have 'marriages' called handfastings, which last for a year and a day. After the year and a day, they decide whether or not they would like to continue their marriage for another year and a day, or just call it quits. I think that's a bloody marvellous idea.

Oh and come to think of it - my first defacto relationship lasted four years, and so did my subsequent marriage. Hmmm...

See, now, if I thought people really had "sat down and thought 'Do I want this woman by my side for the rest of my life?'" I might take it more seriously but I don't think that's really how it happens.

My "Good married friend" who IS in what a consider a happy marriage told me she decided the first time she saw hubby-to-be that he was the man she would marry. SHE kept asking HIM to get married which I guess is OK but I know for sure he would rather have waited a LOT longer.

My "engaged for six years friend" got married in the middle of a drinking binge.

Another friend decided to marry a gal, told his parents, decided to marry another gal, and hoped they wouldn't remember the first gal's name. He committed suicide when gal #2 wouldn't go along with the program.

My mother told me she married my dad "because she didn't want to be an old maid and he was the first guy who asked her." She was 19 so you would think there was still some time before she became an old maid!

My one sister got married the first time because she was 19 and pregnant and he "wanted to do the right thing." They hadn't known each other for more than a few months either.

My douche bag, ring-grabbing friend is one of two who has twice married women they didn't know very well. The second friend, probably my best male friend, told me he got married the second time (each gal he knew for a few weeks only and the first marriage only lasted six months) because "he just wanted to try something different." I am rather ashamed to say that he and I attended the same college; he got a BUSINESS degree and is a CPA (as am I although I was a history major) so you would think he would know better. I haven't met wife number two yet but he said "most people who meet her don't like her." They have a kid and have been married about two and a half years so who knows, maybe it will work out OK.

One set of grandparents got married because he got drafted into WW I and she said she wouldn't wait. They grew up together but hadn't been dating more than a couple of weeks. They had one kid and then never had sex again.

Other set of GPs was weird too. Wife one died of an ectopic pregnancy so her older sister came to help take care of my dad and aunt who were like 5 and 3. After a while she said, "well, the neighbors are starting to talk so either we get married or I leave." So my dad's stepmother is his aunt. She was flat out ugly and he was crude and abusive.

I think people get married to get out of the house, to shut people up, to improve their financial situation, to prove a point, to get back at someone, and only rarely because they rationally want the person by their side for the rest of their life. But as we know, I am a cynical Dickhead.

I did not know that about handfastings (maybe I was sick that day) but in Bolivia, a nominally Catholic country, they have trial marriages. They last a year and if the man is still satisfied with the woman then there is a second ceremony where everyone throws rocks at them and then it is permanent. Of course, the woman doesn't have the same choice. I think I mentioned this before a long time ago.

Do you want to handfast (is that better than a hand job because I am really sick of those) for six months? Oh wait a minute; I meant six days. Or was it six hours? Darn that is a long flight for six hours of sex. Or is it sex hours of sick? Anyway I am kind of drunk right now but I don't have to go back to work for three months so now would sure be a good time to at least fool around for a while ...

You come over here, work for three months seeing as our tax season is just about to begin, shag me senseless two or three times a day (I promise I'll read up before you get here, in case I've forgotten how to do it), and then you can trot off to Argentina and 'marry' someone there for another three months. Unless we stay together for four years I won't have to ever wash your underwear - so it works for me.

RN YGM ha ha. But do you have a footstool cuz remember I am only 5'7" and low change?

So is cohabitation the more current and desireable model? The census says there are about 10 million opposite sex unmarried people living together, and, interestingly, that 41% of American women between 15 and 44 have lived with an unmarried different-sex partner at some point. About 3/4ths of these couples say they plan to get married at some point, and 55% do so within five years, while another 40% break up. (The majority of couples marrying today have lived together first -- 53% of women's first marriages are preceded by cohabitation). Only about 20% of these live-ins go beyond five years without either marrying or breaking up. So maybe four years really is a magic number...

I've got several friends who have gone the same impulsive (or perhaps clueless) way you describe, DH -- marriage as kind of impulse shopping. Only one of them is still married, but for him doing this was completely out of character, unlike the others, so maybe he just saw exactly who he wanted and went for it. Strange that these guys would never simply decide to shack up in these instances -- they dive directly into deep water.

I don't at all disagree that marriage is anachronistic, especially given how far courts have now extended its property issues to people who live together. The bottom line is still that people want to hook up with someone, in some fashion, marriage or not. Would folks expect the same level of anger and bitterness that rears its head here surrounding failed marriages to be there in a failed cohabitation scenario? Why or why not, especially if there still might be property or children involved?

DH - We are all the same height laying down, honey. *grin*

I don't know much about the laws in the US, but here the courts pretty much view married and defacto in the same way when it comes to property and/or children. But even though the consequences and responsibilities are pretty much identical - I think people still tend to see a defacto relationship as a little less 'permanent'....or dare I say, less 'final'.

I think that belief probably makes a defacto couple less likely to experience the bitterness and anger that can occur during a divorce. I guess that's because people who are married often wait until they reach absolute breaking point before thinking about divorce - whereas defactos may feel more able to walk away when things first start going bad.

It's probably the same in both cases for people with children, though. It's bloody tough bringing up kids by yourself, and tooo many men just walk away and never pay a cent to help out - every woman knows that, so they are likely to want to get in first before it happens. I would think that regardless of whether they are married or not, there will always be women who will fight for "their share", because they know they are the ones that are going to be suffering more financially after it's over.

Property, etc, may be easier for defactos though, because if they are breaking up at a point where they are still 'friends', things are more likely to be amicable. I think the biggest problem is that married people tend to do the things that DH mentioned...staying together for the kids, or for their parents, or to save themselves the "humiliation" of getting divorced. Once they get to the point where they just can't take it any more and need to leave, they are already bitter and twisted.

RN:

Thank you for letting me see the light. I clearly remember how much my parents fought. They even wanted to get a divorce, but didn't "for the sake of the kids." Now you should see them ... off in their own corners of their house, miserable.

I'm now completely convinced of the folly of marriage, especially in America. And if that weren't enough, to hell with having any children, either! I can't tell you the number of marriages I've seen that were cause-and-effect (cause=pregnancy, effect=marriage) and wound up bitter unions.

[url=http://www.wired.com/animation/collection/nina_paley/stork/]Here's an animation[/url] that could work wonders in promoting population control, hehe.

-- L

DH, you mentioned that you were in NYC 25 years ago. NYC used to have more blatant prostitution than it does now and there used to be the RLD between 7th and 8th avenue of 42nd ST but thanks to that tyrant former Mayor Rudoplh Guliani and his butt buddy Police Commissioner Howard Safir who "cleaned up" the city of prostitutes and Night clubs that play loud music and disturb the neighborhood peace. Thanks to his "quality of life" reforms, NYC has become a town geared towards those complaining old ladies and old men. The damage is already doen to this city and now NYC is another Disney World. A place that is geared towards kids with NO adult entertainment would drive me nuts and yes, having been to Brazil where adult entertainment is available, NYC looks like dog shit. There are a few underground sex clubs that popped up though but police are still cracking down on them because Guliani programmed to do so even after he left office.
About the marriage issue, since people do tend to get tired of each other and grow apart, perhaps open marriages where the couple consents to seeing other people might be a good solution. RN, I like the idea of the trial marriage or handfasting. This is all the more reason I disagree with Christianity or other religions that support monogamy. Religion tends to demand that we take ourselve out of our natural state of living and tries to fix our ways of living with the threat of "hell". Paganism is a more natural way of living because it is a faith based on nature and its elements. I am an atheist though but I had a college roommate that was a warlock (male witch). It is natural for a male animal to have offsprings from many different women and likewise for females so why can't humans do the same as the rest of the animal species on earth. Christianity's take on this is the concept of "family", but naturally humans or any other animal species are not programmed for family. As Lenin said, women want other guys after 4 years and vice versa for guys. Trial marriages or handfastings would be a concept that is in harmony with our natural state of being. Marriage conflicts with nature.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by darkseid
[i]Marriage conflicts with nature. [/i][/QUOTE]
Nature created us to survive not to be destructive to ourselves.
Take women’s “irrational hate” and revenge for example.
I think, it had positive moment until society introduced marriage and all other crap.
For millions years people lived in tribes together.
Couples were not separated from other members of the tribe by apartment walls and everybody knew their life.
Let say the woman passed her 4 years biological cycle and instinctively wanted to change her sex partner to increase overall chances for all her children to survive.
The Hate from the woman, after four yeas relation, meant just the signal not only for her boyfriend, but also for whole tribe that her interest to her former boyfriend finished and he can go on with his life.
Hate should be strong enough to scare away former boyfriend because
he continued to live in same living space with her and always existed temptation from him to restore relationship. But women’s Hate and Revenge could course not much troubles to the former boyfriend because the tribe was balanced system. Everybody in tribe understood reason of her hate and didn’t let the man put him down.
“Irrational” women’s hate had positive moment also because reduced chances of bloody conflict between old and new boyfriend because not much sense to fight for woman who anyway hate you.
This hate also was signal for other girls in the tribe to start compete for dumped man, so dumped man could easily switch to other girl without being long in depression or aggressive mood.
After former couple was sexually satisfied with new partners there were no reasons to conflict with each other.
They could be just friends and continue to care about their children.
Children didn’t have too many problems because they didn’t lose their parents,
Children still could see both of them every day because they lived in same living space. Also not only parents but the members of the tribe cared about them too.
So Hate and Revenge have only one major reason: don’t mess with my future life and with my future sex partners.
Modern societies, especially in North America, destroyed normal way of human life.
Now children are damaged in any case. They lose one of the parents in case of divorce or they all time continue to see unstoppable conflicts between parents.
Court and Law not consider women’s hate simply as intention to dump
the man. Often they take woman’s claims seriously and could destroy the life of the man as much as the woman wants.
In this case modern courts with idiot’s judies from best American universities are worst and more damaging for society than any most primitive tribe court. They simply bunch of
stupid criminals who has power.
In stead of treating the divorced man with respect like new marriage material which has big potential value for society, American society treat him like criminal and looser who don’t care about marriage and children.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RN
[i]You come over here, work for three months seeing ... , shag me senseless two or three times a day (I promise I'll read up before you get here, in case I've forgotten how to do it), and then you can trot off to Argentina and 'marry' someone there for another three months. Unless we stay together for four years I won't have to ever wash your underwear - so it works for me. [/i][/QUOTE]
RRRRRRRRRRR NNN! I'm Back!

Was down in South America ... not nearly long enough! The flying waitresses on the American carrier home were enough to want me to jump out and WALK back!

So what's up? Still beating your chest as a lone masked defender of Western femaledom?

Say. Am I invited too? Three to four times a day, eh? I'm game!

So what's the catch?

Can I afford it? ... What's that? You want what? MY IMMORTAL SOUL??? What soul? I'm a totally unprincipled Hedonist. Besides, you'll have to have a talk with Satan. I'm sure he has a prior claim!

What all this talk about underwear? Listen: with three or four times a day to keep me happy, I will have absolutely no use for underwear whatsoever, will I?

So here's my proposition. How about dusting off the old ball and chain? They DO have those Down Under don't they?

<just kiddin' ... I just couldn't resist!>

*Hugs*

I don't know why everyone is debating this but American women are the biggest fucking cunts on the planet. I try to be open minded and not generalize but a recent experience gave me a sobering reminder that American women suck. Don't tell me I am generalizing because American women are the most arrogrant, most racist, and most bitchy women on the planet. And on top of that they are not that attractive in the first place.

The last dude said it all. American women are definately the worst. On top of all of his adjectives I'd like to add that they want and expect to have the best of both worlds, meaning: the best of the man's world and and the woman's world.

They want to be treated like women in the old fashioned sense, but also want to get everything a man gets. I say the next woman that bitches about equality should be sent to the front lines in combat in Iraq.

I was in Mexico for four weeks. I screwed five hookers and a tourist from the US. The five hookers cost me around $300 total. The three nights of wining, dining, and delicate emotional surgery before I got the tourist to give it up cost nearly $200 and she would not suck my dick. It is true I did fuck her maybe five times over a couple of days but I also had to hang out with her friends and then plus we had to put on some big charade for them like we weren't fucking each other.

But what got me was finally one time she offered to pay a bar tab. I said great and then she says, "Well, why don't I pay the bill and you can leave a tip?" Why the hell don't you pay the fucking bill AND leave the tip since I took you out to dinner three nights in a row and bought like nine times as many drinks as there were on that tab?? What is up with that?

And she wasn't as good looking as any of the hookers and she was scared to ride the bus.

And don't get me started about all the fat American women at the pool at my resort and all the fat ones on the planes. Tomorrow I leave for Argentina. American women just don't impress me from a fucking standpoint.

DH,

Good hearing from you. Where have you been in Mexico so far? What would you recommend?

Am a bit puzzled by your going after the American tourist after five encounters with Mexican women. Was this some type of experiment or comparitive study?

Good luck in BA and keep us posted. Those of us who are stuck in the US of A need to live vicariously through your adventures.

On this trip I only went to Guadalajara and Puerto Vallarta. Very different places, both recommended, the former more than the latter. I have been many other places in Mexico over the years. The border towns suck. I like Baja, San Miguel de Allende, León, and Monterrey. I haven't spent much time on the Gulf coast.

I didn't do the tourist after the five hookers. I had two hookers in Guadalajara, then went to PV to stay at a resort for three weeks. That was a long time to stay there. She was just there. She was playing cards and board games by the pool with her friends. I like card and board games so I wormed my way in. She was with two married couples so she was the odd one out and I was one of the few people there alone. She was a waste of time but then I was sort of there to waste time until the sale of my house cleared. Then I did the two hookers in PV the next week, then one more in Guadalajara on my way back this past week.

Sold my house, sold my car, not looking back. Looking forward. I do plan to come back to work in the fall but that could change if I get a better offer. The world is a great big place. Maybe I'll try out your Prague at some point.

TallnHandsome:

Have you ever been in any of those countries? Because I did, and all you wrote there is just a chain of the old nonsense legends. It is not that discrimination?

Funny how this once very active thread has all but disappeared now that RN is gone . . .

Prokofiev,

Yes, this was a very active board. Since RN exited, it has died out. I hope that she's OK and has found whatever it is that she's looking for. She was awesome.

Also, Dickhead left for Buenos Aires and is posting on that thread now. Sounds like he's having a great time and doing it his way. Darkseid moved to Rio I think.

Both of those guys basically sold everything off and moved to new cities in South America. We can only admire their courage and refusal to put up with American women anymore.

Yes indeedy I am having a fine time and I do not miss any aspect of the United States. I will be mighty sorry to leave in a month and serve my 4.5 month sentence in the US to obtain the needed funds to once again escape. I don´t miss the women, the food, or driving. I wonder if I will remember how to drive after two and a half months.

Quebec Canada is a nice escape from the bitches of the USA, especially for those stuck in the Northeast, Montreal is an Oasis of Beautiful women. They are everywhere and don't have the kind of shit attitude you will run into in the States. I rode the Montreal metro and saw total female strangers smiling at me, you won't see that in Boston, Chicago, and of course not New York. One lady turned her head to me while on an escalator and nearly fell down, and I moved so that she wouldn't fall.

Yep I do look American with my neatly cut sideburns, blue jeans, blue collar shirt, people often comment I look like Elvis.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by McGarah
[i]The last dude said it all. American women are definately the worst. On top of all of his adjectives I'd like to add that they want and expect to have the best of both worlds, meaning: the best of the man's world and and the woman's world.

They want to be treated like women in the old fashioned sense, but also want to get everything a man gets. I say the next woman that bitches about equality should be sent to the front lines in combat in Iraq. [/i][/QUOTE]Rock on MAN!!!

In fact, there are many things I don't understand.

"Some Japanese women may be the worst of both worlds. Had a good time like western girls, then surgically sew the pussy back and get ready for marriage." -Nonsense. I live there. Ask in the forum...

" In Czech and Slovak, the girls don't want to marry at all as nobody has money..." -Again nonsense. Nice sentence, anyway.

"Spain is small but the taller darker people in the south had been treated badly and wanted to separate." -Lie. It's the Basque people who wants to separate. They are not darker. They are not from the south.

Shall I go on...?

Tall, I agree that living in a country for a year is different from trying to gain residence. The culture and language themselves takes a lifetime to learn. I only know portugese in the present tense. Not to mention, you must know about the laws, home ownership, taxes and getting a job to make a living in that country. I stayed there for several 3 mont intervals and still don't kow every aspect of their culture. Samba dancing and capoeira only scratches the surface of Brazilian culture. In fact I don't know their history.

What I did find out is that their divorce laws are not as favoring to women as divorce laws are in the States. The States give the woman halfof anything the man owns. Let's take for example a guy who owns $100,000 before marriage and earned $20,000 during the marriage. In Brazil, I asked a divorced guy how much he lost in his divorce and he said he lost just the money he earned DURING the marriage and he keeps the money he owned before he got married. He would therefore lose just $10,000 (half of $20,000). In the States, the poor guy would lose $60,000 - $50,000 (half of $100,000) plus the $10,000 (half of $20,000) then he has to pay alimony for as long as the **** is unmarried. Unfortunately for the poor guy, no one would marry the old crow or ifshe happens to find a boyfriend, she would get half his paycheck to support her new family she has with her new boyfriend. In Brazil, alimony is unheard of. Some guys have to pay child support however but that is determined by the judge. If there is such a thing as a financial venereal disease, it is American divorce. And the American women carry that virus.

Well, I had to move from San Jose (CA) to Indianapolis (IN), and it looks like I may be out here for the duration. Anyway, having been here a couple of months compounds my seething sentiment that American women are poison.

That said, I really pissed off a bunch of women in a bar here in Indy when I announced that I wanted my future wife to make more money than me. You should've seen them squirm ... it was glorious!

I'm such a bastard. :)

-- L

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TallnHandsome
[i]Indigo, of course you don't understand. LIVING there for a year or so is NOTHING compared to living enough to get a citizenship or permanent resident. Most of all, you need a lifetime to understand the culture. If you ask in the forum, most are the same as you who don't understand the culture, the blind leading the blind.

Japan is the pioneer, or the only country, that 'invented' the surgery to allow girls to pretend to be a virgin again. Some girls in some other asian countries went there to do it. Yes there are still virgins around. I personally know a pretty girl who is born and educated in Europe, married several years ago. Of course a lot of girls are not virgins when they marry nowadays. Asians still value female virgins but not enough to do the surgery. It's not a common thing in Japan, but for some culture reasons I don't understand, they have that kind of surgery. Don't ask travelers in the forum. Ask Japanese or some nationals in nearby developed countries.[/i][/QUOTE]Well, I guess you are just making a lot of assumptions here, because I've lived in Spain for nine years, and for the last six I maintain two homes in Kyoto and Shanghai. My wife is Japanese. I wouldn't have posted without knowing what I am talking about, but I am sure I am not as blind as someone that only goes out of California (if so) for holidays.

Very nice, your point about Japan! Here I send you a link. Maybe that "sewing the pussy" thing is closer to you than what you would expect. This doc from L.A. claims to be able to "Restore the Natural Virginal State". Heheheh... There are many like him there back in the U.S. Of course, it is perfectly possible for all their customers to be Japanese, Chinese or Korean, isn't it? ;)

http://www.drmatlock.com/briefoverview.htm

Cheers!

Not all of the states in the US are against the man. Texas seems pretty fair. I am in the process of being divorced, and it should be complete within 2 weeks.

First, there is no alimony. If your wife has some skill, has a degree or is seen as employable, then you don't HAVE to pay. If your wife has no skills, then you will have to pay her some amount per month to get her on her feet. They don't call it alimony, but something like rehabilative assistance. This assistance can't last longer than 3 years, and goes away if she gets re-married.

Child support is a formula based off of your income and the number of children. Nothing to fight there.

Any asset you had before marriage is yours, she is not entitled to half of everything. She is entitled to half of anything you accumulated during the marriage.

Oh, and if it goes uncontested, it is complete in 61 days.

Texas is a no-fault state, so you can leave for any reason. Even if you get caught with your dick buried 6 inches in a ho, it won't change the outcome much, except for having to deal with a woman scorned and the fact she may tie things up to waste all your money.

I like Texas. I lived in Florida and Colorado before this, and I don't plan on moving from here.

I have the coast and offshore fishing an hour away. I have great hunting opportunities (ducks, geeses, deer, hogs, turkey, exotics). The cost of living is cheap in comparison to other places. For example, I bought a 3,100 Sq. ft. custom built home for $174K.

And the government here is more hands-off than other states from what I can see.

Lot's of wide open space, and if you want city living, you have your choice of Dallas, Austin or Houston. Houston has a ton of museum's and fine arts events. And the sex industry in Houston is big!

I'm talking *****houses all over town with beautiful women. Full on sex in strip clubs if you want, an independent escort scene that will blow you away. I love this place!

Let me tell you about my American experience. First of all I have live in this country for 8 years and have seen many different women.

First, when i came to this country in 1995 I had chance to be in the environment of low level society. Most of the girls at my High School were very easily accessible. In other words, it was not hard to get them to bed. All you had to do was to have a car to drive her around the town. Afterwards, it was easy to bring her to your place, undress and fuck. At that time, chikcs all were between 15-18 years of age. There were three things that I noticed. First is that there were no really beautiful girls, the majority of them were simpy average looking but never beauties. Second, many of those girls get pregnant during their High School years. This, in my opinion denies the accusation that American Women don't let there men to fuck. In fact, they do. Third thing is that there are a lot of FAT and UGLY females in America, who nobody wants. To me this is quite surprising because if you visit Europe(Germani is exception) you will not see so much ugliness on the streets of Europe. In my opinion, this is the direct consequence of American SUBURBAN and AUTO oriented style of life. In fact, life is probably not very hard for a fat person in the United States.

Second, relationships between sexes in college are much more coplicated. Contrary to what they show in those stupid Hollywood movies, sexual life in college was really passive. In four years of being at school I have got only one college pussy and that girl was from Poland. Partly, it was because I was very busy studying for tests. Partly, because I lived out of campus. The biggest problem, however, was that those females at college were very "hard to get." They go out with you but don't fuck. In fact, sexual life at universities of other countries is much more simple and girls are more accessible. On the other things, in America I found a lot of beautiful girls at colleges especially on easy lieberal arts programs.

Third, after college it is much harder to MEET girls. The problem is that you just don't know where to meet them. You don't go to school, college. American dance clubs are not suited for hooking up with girls.(those who have been to Europe will understand me) American dumb clubs are stupid and created for idiots who listen to stupid American music. I believe that there are girls who are willing to fuck but I don't know where to meet them. Regularly people meet girls through friends but I don't have many of American friends. Girls from immigrant communities are much easier to get and fuck but it is still hard find them.

Carbon:

Hello from Indianapolis, where there's no way on God's Green Earth I'm going to look for an American woman, haha! :D

My own experience with American women is a bit different from yours. I had the car in high school, but wasn't able to bag-and-shag any women. College was screwed up for me, as I attended a Catholic university. My theme song back then was Billy Joel's "Only The Good Die Young".

Surprisingly, I've had MUCH better luck in the real world than high school and college combined. Of course, it really helped that I went to live and work overseas for a couple of years.

I've come to the realization that, as an American man, I stand a far better chance for meeting women as a visitor to their country. It's probably the same for you in meeting American women. While visiting other countries, I've found that women were attracted to my "foreign-ness" more than anything. And I'm not the greatest-looking guy on the planet by a long shot. :)

Anyway, I'm hoping to travel to yet another country sometime soon to experience more great foreign women. My favorite countries thus far are Brazil, Japan, and Thailand.

For irrefutable proof that American women are psycho-nut-cases, it's easy: just spend some time in the San Francisco Bay Area. I say this only because I was born & raised there, and have practical experience of the twisted mentality of American women there. With the fall of Silicon Valley, they've even grown even angrier than they were since I can remember.

I think I should start planning a winter trip down to Rio de Janeiro again, or maybe this time I'll have to check out Buenos Aires. I hear the women there are worth getting to know.

Catch you later!

-- L.

Lookr:

You probably lived and grew up in suburban and relatively rich neighborhood. Then you probably went to local High School in that neighborhood. Kids in youe HS were probably from rich/middle class families and their parents looked after them. In such families parents make sure that their daughters don't do whoring, drugs, and never cut school. Girls from such families have everything and are used to think high about themselves. No doubts it is hard to get pussy from them.

I went to school located inside of the city of Philadelphia. The local neighborhood was neither rich nor poor. Many kids were from low income and white trash families. The school was always dissolved by 20% of black kids from Ghetto area. Also, there were kids from various immigrant communities. I had met chinese, vietnamise, korean, polish, russian, romanian, hispanic, japanese students in there. There were lots of drugs and fights in that school. The life was interesting.:)

Lets stick with American girls from white trash families. Parents don't look after them when they are teenagers. Many kids have have much of free time. In fact girls found time to DO everything. They fucked, sucked, they did drugs, they cut school. In other words, they were easy and friendly and unfortunately for them got pragnant very often. They were fuckable.

All girls from suburban HS went to college. They don't fuck. At least, it is not eacy to get pussy from them.

After college it became even more difficult. I don't know where to meet women AT ALL in this country. I just don't see them in my life. In Europe I would go to clubs and hook up with somebody. Recently, I have got Indian pussy but it is a long story.

To: TallnHandsome & Indigo Blue

[B]SEWING UP THE BROKEN MEMBRANE AGAIN[/B]

It was talk of girls in Jakarta during 80's. Loosing virginity before mariage has been fact of the society, even in the conservative one. But, I believe such procedure is only possible if the membrane is not badly damage. This means she only f*cked once or twice. And, the procedure has to be done immediatelly.

It is cheating to guys like us. Nowadays, Indonesian man still prefers a virgin. But, things are different. Indonesians are not that conservative any more. So, people don't really care.

Anyway, this sewing up the membrane procedure was in demand in Indonesia once.

Cheers
Jakarta AFter Dark the born again Satanist

Hello Gentlemen

I don't know if this is the right board for this question but I figure it is as good as any. I am thinking about taking a long trip next year. I'm thinking about either Europe (Frankfurt, Amsterdam, and Praque), or Australia. Which should I go? I like girls with light skin. Will I find many working in Australia? How about prices? The exchange rate is better for Australia. Is that enough of a reason to go?

Thank you for your answers.

BL

To: TallnHandsome

Yes, you are right.

A Libanese friend of mine once told me he couldn't marry his Swedish girlfriend because she's not a virgin. Every day for the rest of his life he will think about 100 guys who f*ucked her before. It's a torture for him.

What a jealous guy!

Cheers
Jakarta After Dark the born again Satanist

Brandon Lee

vacation in Argentina

Girls are light skinned and beautiful. Mostly brunettes and few blondes. Argentineans are of italian and spanish descent.

Prices are dirt cheap due to currency. Everything is 1/3 the price of USA.

Great meals for $5

Girls vary anywhere from $30 US for 1 hour to $150 for the night.

People are very friendly. Just like vacationing in Europe. Everybody speaks spanish but a few speak english.

Please RTF title of this forum prior to posting in it! :(

TallnHandsome

Why? Don't American women have pussy?

Look: American Women have not matured to where they are at one with themselves as a group.

They don't understand that they are NOT a weaker sex but they run it on us like we branded them with it or something - a softer grip can be just as firm.

They are not centered, they have a hard on for being right, use their femininity as a weapon, not an asset or attribute and are generally not clean.

Now I don't care what part of town you came from, it is what it is. American women need to pay close attention to the Latina woman.

American women believe that all men want to do is fuck them. They believe that men have "only one thing on their mind" when it comes to them. Wake up ladies.

I learned what passion and love were all about not from the girl next door who didn't know her asshole from page 4, but from a latina who was clearly in touch with that side.

American woman can't reach that far. Too bad because there are some pretty ones out there!

Be Safe and BE NICE

Country John

Well put, John!

In my experience, without exception, foreign women are far more in-tune with their gender. Granted, there are foreign women who can still be psycho nut cases. But by-and-large I've found it far easier to connect with foreign women than American ones.

-- L.

I cant believe you bastards actually marry these beeetches who are Americans. I live in America but was raised elsewhere. I got me a nice little southren euro girl. Great in the sack and no drama. These home grown USA girls are cookie cutter, all the same, ball busting hoes. I can not believe how you horndogs down here chase after them and do cart wheels for some pussy. I witness it everyday in all capacities of life. I t is really sad. Every dog I know has been married at least once or twice and owes his next ten years of pay for alimony to these horrible attituted women. Just screw them like the hoes they are, but dang dont marry the *****.

Steve:

I didn't say I married anyone (and it's precisely because of American Women that I've never been married ... and I'm 36!). I just think that American Women can't compete with Fantastic Foreign Females. Whenever I travel outside the USA, my faith in the female gender is restored. :)

-- L.

lookr:

Same here. My first woman was Canadian (same as American but better in the cold). I never knew what a real woman was about until I met my (Mexican) wife.

After looking at it closely it seems that American women have such insecurities that insistance upon equality is the focus and anything feminine is a sign of weakness.

There is mans work and there is womans work. Anywhere you go in the world this idea seems to have sunk in except America. Look, if they want to strap on a tool belt and work on the 25th floor or on the pole that's fine with me. The mentality that "men do it so women should be able to do it because they are equal" is what ruins it.

I admire women who do what they want if it is what they WANT to do. That is seldom the case with American women and it is one of the things that makes them unattractive. You don't see this shit in Mexico while at the same time you see women happy in thier work, or in Guam where the women believe they are important to society as women and not fuck monkeys.

Some women may say that we are only looking for sub-serviant *** ***** ******* with ***** and ***** or large ****** that go ***** when you**** them. Well, that could be part of it but they seem to look for many of the same things in men.

Some men are feminine, that's true and some women are masculine. OK. We all have a feminine side and a masculine side. American women don't have a handle on this at all.

My wife has a dedicated drive to achieve her goals. She will pick up the hammer, pic-axe or any other tool if I'm not around but it never detracts from her femininity even though the nail is going in the wood. Yes, she has a temper and she hits hard but that's my fault most of the time.

All I can say is thank goodness for Mexican and Oriental women. I also have a weakness for black women who I find can be as tough as nails but don't share the same negative attributes as american white women. I will drive by a row of American 9's to go with a Black 8 any day of the week. Honest.

Be Safe and BE NICE
Country John

American women are the same as english women, wolves in a sheepskin. All they care about is how deep a mans pockets are.

You give them everything and they are never satisfied where as you only need to visit family lifestyles in eastern europe and asia. To appreciate the differences..These type women appreciate everything they have.

TallnHandsome:

Very informative. Thanks.

Country John

Imagine raising a family for years, only to find out one day that your children are not really yours.

Imagine, after the divorce, being told by the courts that you have to continue paying financial support for these children.

One such story, told recently on NBC’s Dateline, is that of Morgan Wise, an engineer in Big Springs, Texas. Wise’s fateful discovery, several years after his divorce, was prompted by the desire to help treat his 6-year-old son for cystic fibrosis: When he took a blood test to find out which cystic fibrosis gene he carried, it turned out that he didn’t have the gene at all. Both parents have to be carriers for a child to inherit the gene.

Subsequent genetic tests showed that of the four children born to Wise’s former wife during their 13-year marriage, only the eldest was his. "I never experienced a heart attack, and I can tell you, I had one that day," Wise told Dateline. "I mean...a part of me died."
When Wise went to court asking to be relieved of the child support payments that consumed a third of his take-home pay, he was turned down. Wise was later barred from contact with all four children because he had discussed the issue of their parentage with them in violation of the judge’s order, but he still had to keep the checks coming. In January the U.S. Supreme Court declined to hear Wise’s appeal.

Poor guy. It's amazing that this guy still pays child-support every month. 13 yeras marriage, three of four kids with other men, what kind of American she is!

I watched a tv report perhaps a year ago where a LA guy was presenting testimony to a state commission on child support enforcement by LA County. Turns out that one of the "children" he was required to pay child support for was a little stuffed animal that was given a name by his ex and listed as a dependent. He actually had the stuffed animal on the table next to him as he was testifying. Very scary stuff.

A man is never wronger than when he is in front of the DA on a child suport issue.

There are a lot of deadbeat dads out there. The children suffer mostly but the process is a very abusive one.

I overpaid my child support on purpose for many years for the benefit of the kids and continued to pay for two long after they were to have "dropped off."

The real kicker is that I got back almost every dime I overpaid. The court issued a refund check every month for about 6 months. I'm talking a substantial amount of money here. So, there is one happy ending to tell. Hopefully I won't see a notice from these bastards looking for the money back!

Then there's the story not too long ago about the guy who needed a passport to visit China and got grabbed for over 230K in back child support. He said the kid was not his but did not respond to the family court summons at the beginning of the case - he ignored it. Cost him a cool 230k. Jeez.

Seems American women don't want to be partners in the game of life, it's a money grab. Too bad.

Country John

I heard on the radio a while back that in a lot of places you are financially responsible for every child that comes out of your wifes womb, even if you can DNA prove that the child is not yours. Presumably the logic is that you should be aware of what your wife is up to. What BS!

Another scenario which is taking place is if you are living with a single mom and her kids and the court can prove the kids have formed a bond with you, they can make you pay child support for each kid until age 18 if the kids father is unable or unwilling to. Again, complete BS.

What is this country coming to?

I definately agree the average American woman is a money grabber. I think the most important criteria a woman uses in choosing a mate is his income. I think it supercedes looks, sexual ability, everything.

One thing I disagree with however is that women of different nationalities are that much different. I was married to a Filipina for several years, whom I met after she'd been in the country only about eight weeks. She was young and beautiful and very pleasing in bed. Excellent cook and homemaker., everything you could ask for. But she went to work and make friends with American women and women who had been in the country for a while and guess what? She started to become just like them. Wasn't long before she was a gold-digger like the rest of them.

I think it would be advantageous to marry a foreign woman if you were to live in her country. Being an American you could provide a manner of living which she would be hard pressed to find otherwise. She would undoubtably be grateful and a great wife. That's why I'm seriously considering moving overseas when I retire.

Now to clarify an earlier remark. IMHO some foreign women would be great to marry over here. My wife was only 22 when I met her and I think the younger ones are more likely to take on the same values as their American counterparts. I think if I had it to do over again and was able to choose, I would choose an older woman (maybe mid-thirties to early-forties) who had more traditional values.

Now a final remark about child support. I do believe it is necessary and that men should support their own children. I have the utmost respect for men like Country John who not only diligently pay each month but actually give extra when they can. It's just that paying for kids that are not your own that bothers me. It also bugs me that some guy making twelve dollars an hour might be paying four hundred dollars a month CS while his ex is living with some guy spending his money and doing fairly well, while the 12 dollar an hour guy is living in total poverty. Thank goodness (knock on wood), I have never been in this predicament.

Anyway, until such time as I can move overseas I am stuck with my American girlfriend who hates giving BJ's and is more interested in me everytime she sees me checking my stock portfolio. Anyone know a good prenup attorney in Seattle?

Civ2K

I recently went to the Dominican Rep. and went out to a club and met a nice chica. By the 2nd date this woman was completely head over heels for me. Alll i did was take her out for dinner, treat herr well in the sack and give her a present and she was grateful. I had a blast with her it was romantic, sexy and a complete GFE. She was literally in tears as I kissed her goodbye and it felt good to have that reaction after all the indifference here in the States.

I thought about how many times I've done handstands to try and get an American woman to barely even acknowledge my presence. It is brutal out there. Now a little about me. I live in Manhattan, work as a consultant, have earned anywhere from 60k to 90k on the avg. over the last 4 years, have average looks, a great pad in the village, I am in good physical shape and am in my late 30's.

I have been blown off, cut down, ignored and avoided for the last 6 to 8 years by American women. Granted, I am somewhat picky. I am not going to hang with a girl if she is not sexy in one way or another. And believe me when this is a standard it removes a vast number of women from the pool in NYC. There are droves of down and out, lifeless, out of shape New York women who head to their office jobs to do their grunt work. So remove them from the pool narrow the age group to 23 to 36 and then you really narrow it down.

With these women that remain you have seen the Sex and the City effect take hold on women. They are so concerned what other women will think of a new guy. There are so many publicized horror stories about guys that we have to overcome every hurdle in the book because there is so much negativity and roadblocks built into these women.

One other effect of Sex and the City and the Media is that, and to this point I disagree with a lot of opinions here, I think that physicality is extremely important to NYC women especially with the younger crowd. If you dont at least resemble a Calvin Klein model, if you're not thin and at least 6' 2" with a full head of hair youve really got your work cut out for you. I dont think a lot of the younger chicks really care about money all that much. They just want a guy who has poster-like looks. A dude who loooks like James Dean or Brad Pitt will do very well here. Otherwise you will spend, spend spend, kiss ass, call, give presents, submit to their will and maybe you might someday take a chick to bed. But you will pay pay pay.

Here is what i posted in another forum before i saw this one.
________________________________________________

Well here it is . . . another shitty New Years Eve in New York City.

Each and every one of you with a lovely Latina should kiss the ground you'll walk on tonight.

I am going to a wine and cheese party tonight with a bunch of spoken-for, spoiled, complicated yet predictable, and more often than not uptight New York Women.

This is the last year gentlemen. Mister Smooth be flyin south next ano.

I read the story about Morgan Wise presented by supertomcat001 and got a bit shocked.

The story presents the law strange: the law puts responsibility on the person who did NOT do anything wrong and who did NOT have control over the situation. It does not look right to me. I undersatand that those who brake the law should be persecuted. Or, that a person who drives while being drunk should be fined. Or, a man who makes a girl pregnant should be financially responsible for his child.

In this situation the court is just looking for an escape goat. And the former husband is the closest one. And available: it might be hard to find the real father(s). This is not good.

I believe the law should some protection mechanism for men in such situations because, I bet, such cases happen more often than one wants to think (it was occasionally discovered). It, actually, will make women think twice before doing bad things.

--------------------------

”No person – no problem” (c) Joseph V. Stalin

Civ2000 wrote:

"I heard on the radio a while back that in a lot of places you are financially responsible for every child that comes out of your wifes womb, even if you can DNA prove that the child is not yours. Presumably the logic is that you should be aware of what your wife is up to. What BS!"

I wish I were wrong, but the logic could be: someone has to pay.

-------------------------------

”No person – no problem” (c) Joseph V. Stalin

Mister Smooth,

Excellent report. I'm compelled to agree with virtually everything you said. It's the same here in Chicago with Milwaukee being worse. We have the same problems as NYC but here the women are very fat and it's so common that it's rather acceptable.

Your lady in the DR sounds like a dream come true. Good for you and for her. I recently returned from Manchester, England. The SW's were great (BBBJ the norm). What really grabbed me, however, was how friendly and warm the non-working girls were. It was a totally different environment. Ladies there go to actually meet men at pubs and don't seem to play the game of how many guys can I put down tonight while I smugly puff on my cigarette. I was standing alone at a pub in Manchester and four girls asked me to come over and sit down with them??? They were all very nice looking and very sweet. One other night, ladies were buying me drinks??? On another evening I met a girl named Nikkola whom I spent a lot of time with and when the pub closed at 2:00 AM she kissed me goodby for about 10 minutes. We almost went for it right there on the floor! Could you imagine something like this happening in the states? It would be great if the the WSG had a thread dealing with helping American guys relocate to countries where the women appreciate guys. What do you think?

No doubt about it Mr. Smooth, you and I are in the wrong country. And what's worse is that American guys see this as the norm.

Whoa! I had no idea about the non-biologically-related child support thing. That truly sucks. :( There's this elderly guy -- Earl -- who hangs out at a bar I go to once a week. He lamented in an alcohol-drenched stupor that "America's f----d up because the American FAMILY'S f----d up! *Hic!*"

I wonder if foreign women are influenced by what is portrayed in American entertainment overseas (TV shows, movies, celebrities, etc.). I'd have to agree with Civ that it would be better to live with a foreign woman in her own country. But right now, I like the foreign GFE that mister_smooth mentions. It's nice, clean-cut "summer love".

Either way, though, it seems like money's the central focus here in America. Most AW seem not only to play for instant financial gratification, but also for those guys they meet whom they think show the greatest financial potential. This is why I like The Way of the Monger. Everything's right out on the table. None of that fancy-restaurant, pricey-bar, pricey-disco, pricey-club crap which will still result in less than Vegas odds of bumping uglies.

The other day I was out puttering about. As I saw one particular bevy of babes, my wacky mind went and morphed their clothes into baggy crotchety ol' prospector gold-digger gear, complete with pans, packs and picks. I couldn't stifle the laugh. :)

AW want the money, the power, the prestige ... and all without lifting a finger. Lately, I've noticed a trend where AW talk up their soft sides with the caveat "but must know how to show a woman a good time." What's that? Sounds like the clink of picks.

Eureka!

-- L.

I'd quit working, go on welfare and move into a $300 a month room before I'd pay for kids that weren't mine.

I live in Atlanta and one thing that I do know is that in America each state is almost like it's own country in that people from different states act different from another. I mean compare a New York City raised individual to a Omaha raised individual: 2 totally different individuals both born in the same country. With that said I believe that there are some cities that are more advantageous sexually than others. Being from the south I could never live in New York City because even the men have fucked up attitudes so I know the women are fucked up. I would NEVER fuck with a girl from New York City because it seems like people go to "Asshole School" up there to become more refined assholes. Not to offend any New Yorkers here I'm just saying the people treat you like shit so I know the women ain't shit. Where as in other parts of the nation the people are more care free like in Florida!! Not to say that the women there are just totally better. They have some idiots too. My point is just that certain cities IMHO are places to totally avoid when it comes to having a normal relationship with a woman i.e. New York City being one of them.

phil, I'm not looking to argue but have to say something. I'm from New York City and have since lived in 5 other major American cities and a few pit stops in some small towns. The women I've met have been pretty much the same in all the cities. Not all New Yorkers are assholes and I've found that that they tend to be some of the most true and honest people I've known. They're just not into sugar coating and saying shit just to be nice. I grew up there from 67-85 and would not trade that experience for anything. I'm a simple, 'chill', easy to get along with guy. Sure, I can pull out my New York wiseass routine when i feel like it, just as much as some midwestern guy can pull his cowboy act. If you judge New Yorker's by the ones who have moved to Boca Raton and give thier kids brand new cars the day they get thier license and live to complain about every little thing, sure you'll get a distatste for them. Luckiily, that's just a small sampling of them. There are some very cool people from N.Y.C. and the whole metropolitan area. Trust me on that. If I had a ton of money, I'd likely spend at least 3 moths a year in Manhattan.

Phil and Cali, I kind of agree with you both. I've been all over the country and find that women are pretty much the same wherever you go, though not being a native New Yorker I believe I would have a difficult time meeting a woman in NYC. On the other hand I have been to both Lincoln and Omaha Nebraska and those two cities gets my vote (hands down) as having absolutely the friendliest women in the United States. If I was in a contest where I had a month to find a nice girlfriend and could choose between Lincoln and Manhatten; Lincoln would win easily. However, if I could spend three months of my life wherever I wanted in the U. S. I would pick New York. I could easily see myself living there a few months a year myself if my finances permitted it.

Civ2K

Mr. Smooth,

We have got to have a drink next time I am in the city. You are so on point about New York Hos. They are spoiled and pretentious. I do think that looks matter to all of them including the old ones who have money. They like boy toys. I admit to being rather lucky in some aspects because I was good looking and in shape during my years there but I still like a woman who WANTS a man not an ATM card or new shoes or someone to just show the girls. They ALL act like their pussy is God's gift. Even the ugly ones!! But I can substitute Los Angeles and other big city chicks also. I am out of the country now but back to America soon. I will try my best to fuck stupid girls with great tits. The American way ha ha!

Speaking from experience.

I was born and educated in New York City. Met and married a woman in Denmark in my late 20’s. Have lived here for nearly 28 yrs. I can tell from my long experience, European women are great compared to their sisters in the US and they are also b****es.

Yes, many (especially the 20 something) are very much influenced by the printed media, film, TV etc. When I moved here in 1976, I saw very few overweight women. Many bicycled as a necessity and for leisure. There were only 2 pizza restaurants in the city. No family burger restaurants, no famous ice cream stores, just 1 national B&W TV station and 3 national radio stations.

I don’t have to explain how technology has changed Europe which has become very Americanised with American culture for good and worse. Many of you have visited European cities so you know what I mean.

Women though have changed since I moved here. Sexually, they are still better (liberated) than American women. Materialistically, they have inherited what they see and read daily because the world has grown smaller the past 20 years.

I know 5 other expats from the mid-west to the east coast. All have been divorced from their first Danish wives. Another is just recently divorced from his second Danish wife. My five friends have remarried again to other Danish women. A seventh just moved back home after 12 yrs. struggling here divorced, no job, on welfare etc. He is a loser so we’re glad he’s gone. I am the only one still married to first wife. However, it is not good for several reasons which I will not bore you with.

Actually, I am looking forward to retiring in S. Florida during the cold, dark winter months here in Denmark to ride a Harley. Drive a convertible, basically try to enjoy myself which I couldn’t do the last 25 yrs. The wife does not want to live in the US for more than 3 weeks yearly. She says Florida has no culture. She’s a Dane with a capital “D”.

It’s not easy to learn another language fluently to become a part of and contribute to a foreign society. Even so, how would you like to pay 25% sales tax on all goods, 180% excise tax on new cars (buy 1 pay for 3). I have PAID for 18 cars since 1983. An entry level Harley costs $47-48K. Gasoline costs $1.20 a liter (the dollar has fallen 30% in 20 months). Withholding taxes amt. to approx. 42-65% depending on earnings. Are you asking why I stay?. I have my own business. We live in a nice apt. and have a summer house. I go “home” once or twice yearly. No, I am not rich, wealthy, whatever adjective you choose. My business should be better. I stay because I have freedom. Freedom to be with another woman (SW) whom I’m extremely fond of because she gives me the GFE I don’t get at home and need so much. Freedom to travel to Florida and DR this Easter and Beijing this summer alone.

I really feel for the guys posting here about their own experiences or others how the US courts have financially destroyed American men in alimony or custody cases. I hear CA lawyers are not particularly popular except for gold digging women. The courts in Denmark are not so penalizing. Average law suit for whatever reason or fault about $10-30K.

However, I must admit living here in Copenhagen is not all that bad. Danes love to speak english, love to travel to the US. Denmark, Netherlands and GB are probably the best European countries for expats to live in. Many elderly Danes still praise US forces in WW II for their efforts.

BTW, Denmark is the ONLY country outside of the USA observing Fourth of July Independence Day Celebration Party in the western part of this country with prominent guest speakers f.ex. Colin Powell, military band and other entertainment. It’s been a tradition now for over 50 years. It’s not the whole country but a group of several thousand Danes and Americans getting together for the observance.

Some of you have mentioned a desire to move out of the US. You can forget about Europe unless you are married to a European and can prove you can provide the basic daily necessities or get a job with European placement. There are so many 3rd. world immigrants flooding Europe the past 10-15 yrs. because of UN policies, laws have been passed restricting living and work permits.

IMHO, I think some American men should try to find a Russian, East European or latina woman instead of countless failings with American women. I think those women can provide the happiness you are searching for. I have considered this as a possibility if divorce occured.

HAPPY HUNTING for that great lay and search for love.

I'd have to agree with NYC Expat that Europe is becoming "Americanized" through my experience in Ireland. The Irish chicks have been watching shows like "Friends" for years and the culture seems to be merging with America in a number of ways; the music, fashion, Hollywood mania, capitalism, consumerism etc.

Its funny that last night I went out to a local bar and there were at least 4 girls in the bar who were going for a Paris Hilton look - ratty died blonde hair, tons of makeup, slutty 70's skirts and high heels. Of course there were 5 really hot girls and about 30 guys in the bar. I guess trends come and go. Now we need Paris Hilton to endorse uninhibited free spirited sex experiences with older men as the "in thing" and we'll all be in good shape in the States!

BTW, I am making my first trip to SA and need to decide between Brazil and Argentina. Last night, a friend endorsed Brazil as the place to go for a first timer. What do you think?

TIA.

I must admit I love Manhattan myself. I'm a little jaded because I work in the airline industry so I have to deal with the nasty New Yorkers on the regular. I just get the feeling that out of the whole country they have the bitchiest women but that's just my personal opinion. I mean Atlanta has a lot of bitchy women too. I agree the whole country is fucked up. I get tired of meeting women who GO OUT OF THEIR WAY to be unfriendly. I sometimes feel that traveling to other countries and meeting women is a blessing and a curse at the same time because when I'm back in the U.S. I can't even deal with the women on the slightest level without them getting on my nerves. I do not blame them though. Many were raised to be the way they are and honestly don't even know any other way to be. Living here in Atlanta I feel like I'm living in the Twilight Zone because the females are so fake to me. Many walk around mad with an attitude... I'm like what are you mad about..you have it made. Here in Atlanta the only way to get a female to give you the slightest attention is to A) Play for the Falcons, Braves or the Hawks B) Be a big time drug dealer or otherwise C) be rich from some other means. I guess the reason why I love South America so much is because I don't have to worry about Allen Iverson coming in the club taking all the women.

mr_smooth:

I haven't been to Argentina, but last year I went to Rio for Carnaval (how they spell it down there). I got my mongering information from this amazingly amazing site, and I was set! :)

Alas, I had a bit of a bad experience my first night in Rio. Some sage advice: Never go for the woman who's ten years older than you but tries to look ten years younger than you, heh.

But, funky experience aside, Rio was fantastic! By this time next year, I hope to travel to Argentina. Judging from all the positive press on this forum, I can't wait to get down to Buenos Aires.

Later!

-- L.

mister_smooth:

Go for Argentina.

I was at a crossroads a couple of years back with a similar choice. In the end I picked Buenos Aires just because I knew more Spanish words than Portuguese… Also I read the BA board and was sold after a couple of pages! The last element in the decision for me was that I wanted to meet our great leader, Jackson.

In the end BA won. I had a fantastic time. Been back 3 times now and will keep on going. Just look at the board, there are some fantastic guys who spend a lot of time out there: have you wondered why?

Regards and happy decision making.

Havanaman

I have had the opportunity to travel around the world and have to say that American women are the least desirable company you can find. It might be a generalization but for the most part your chances of meeting a charming princess who loves you for you in the US are next to nil. Europe, South America, Australia, Asia, even Canada has more attractive and desirable women relative to the population than the US. While it is true that due to the mass media and consumerism that women are changing all around the world and becoming more "American", the rest of the world still has plenty of sexy and exotic women. I'm an American who is originally from New York and I have spent time in Europe, South America, Asia, and finally I wound up in Australia. All these places have sexy and beautiful women. I have also lived in different cities in the US including NYC and LA, and find that women in the big cities are generally the same, there are few nice exceptions like Miami or Hawaii but for the most part I don't find American women very attractive or friendly. From my travels, I have found that women are just more sensual outside the US. Sensuality is an art and can't be learned, your either born with it or without it. After my years of travel I am happily living in the land down under in Sydney, Australia, and yes the women here are gorgeous :).

Wow, long time no hear, CBGBConnisur! I envy you the Sydney location and I concur -- a lot of beautiful women there.

CBGBConnisur

I have to disagree with one point only. I believe that sensuality can be learned. But American women (thank you feminists) don't feel the need to be feminine. So why learn? IMHO

FD

Still I have to say that I am a bottom line person and in the end my goal is just to get laid. To this end American women, for lack of a better word, SUCK. But it all makes sense after all, the whole country is in uproar about Janet Jackson showing her nipple while advertisements featuring fart jokes and other stupid crap were playing back to back. With this kind of attitude so prevalent no wonder its so difficult to find a good lay in the USA. I really want to meet an old college acquaintance of mine who was a sorority queen that turned me down and treated me like crap and introduce her to my gorgeous Australian girlfriend just to make her feel really inadequate because she really wasn't that sexy. Even European women aren't that great, they can be as bitchy and jaded as most American women, and many can have an attitude if you're a foreigner or can't speak their language, also many of them are lazy and like to sit on their arses and smoke. Don't get me wrong many are good for a one night encounter, but not for anything more. They don't have long term appeal. Australian ladies have a number of advantages that make them better than European women. First, they speak English and for an American guy this makes it easy to socialize with them. They have British style sophistication and etiquette yet at the same time lack of the snootiness of British women and are very down to Earth. They are also very upbeat and very active, these girls love sports which is something rare for women. And most importantly they love sex and have sex appeal to keep a guy going.

Hope you guys don't mind if I butt in. We here in Oz are divided between those who think Sydney girls are better and those who think Melbourne girls are better. IMHO, I'd take the Melbourne ones over the Sydney ones anyday. If you guys stay in OZ extensively, you'll realise the huge difference in attitude of the people. Sure this is a generalisation, but in Sydney the girls are far more pretentious and arrogant. Melbournians are far more laid back and friendly. I guess it's probably due to Sydney being like a mini London, non stop activity 24 - 7. It's probably a reflection on the success of a area. Generally speaking, the bigger the city, the less friendly the people are.

Having lived a few years in the UK as well, I've found that the same applies. Living in Cardiff, most girls would be perfectly happy with dinner and a movie. But in London, you'd tend to find that they are heaps more demanding. To the extent of shopping and wanting to go on holidays(weekend in Paris).

Maybe this is all slightly different for me, as an Asian/Australian. I suppose there's still a bit of reluctance on most Anglo cultures to accept cross racial relationships. So I suppose, my experiences might differ from you guys. Anyway, just my 2 cents worth.

A number of Aussie girls have or are currently taking America by storm. Naomi Watts, Cate Blanchette, Elle MacPherson, Rachel Griffiths, Megan Gale, to name a few. :)

"BTW, I am making my first trip to SA and need to decide between Brazil and Argentina. Last night, a friend endorsed Brazil as the place to go for a first timer. What do you think?"

Hmmm easy decision DO BOTH!


Go to www.varig.com, click AMERICAS, INTERNET FARES, and BUENOS AIRES, and you can get a triangle fare from NY, LA or MIAMI to BA with a free stopover in RIO or SP, for about the same price most people pay for one or the other. Great airline, safe, clean, on time, in general.

I have been both places many times and frankly it's a tossup, unless you like black and mixed race girls, in which case you must go to Rio. Argentina is very caucasian.

"LA is also the porn movie capital of the world"
It's also the fake breast capital of the world. I think its also the murder capital of the US, although New York and Chicago are just as bad. I don't care if there are 10 million people in LA, LA is Dante's Hell, if you have visited LA did you ever notice the brownish haze that overwhelms the skies of Los Angeles? Its absolutely disgusting, LA is a also a lot more dangerous than Sydney. I nearly kissed the ground when I landed in Sydney, this place is beautiful and much safer than LA.

This is coming straight from the horse's mouth. Our lovely American woman in all her grandeur. I had a Super Bowl party and this person was offended that I put my arm around her and was being nice to her. Honestly, I did nothing more than put a friendly arm on this *****'s shoulder. She sent me this email a few days later. Need we say more about the state of American women.

"You are welcome. I did have a good time at the party until you started hitting on me and in front of other people. It made me really uncomfortable, and I thought that I had made myself clear that I wasn't interested in you for anything other than a friend. You need to be more accountable for your actions. I mean I've seen you twice when you have been drunk and you've tried to hit on me. Maybe you shouldn't drink so much if you aren't able to remember what you do or say. I'm sorry that I am being so harsh, but I feel that I have to be to get my point across to you. I'm sure we will see each other at another party, but I didn't do the favor for you in hopes of getting anything in return. I was just trying to be nice.

Take care"

We have some of the most gorgeous women in the whole fricken World here in America.

But the Problem is = Their ATTITUDE

Especially with Younger Women [ who Cares about the rest ?? ] , they learn early on to assess their Own Looks and Desireability.

And the more attractive ones then try to use their Looks to extract All They Can from which·ever Men they can.

But even WORSE is their [ to quote Nirvana ] =

" Here we are now, Entertain us " Attitude

What I mean by this is = even fat, ugly chicks have this 'Entitlement' 'Tude ; as if just because God gave them a snatch, all of us men should Bow Down and Worship them

It's a Mercenary Hardness ; a projection of a grating nature that I find just plain *Irritating* [ You guys know what I mean ]

And don't even get me started about how NO young American women know How to COOK !!

... Or, about how the Public School Systems leave them so un·educated that they can't carry on an intelligent conversation on ANY Subject that hasn't been hyped on MTV

I'm talking here, Natch, ONLY about women you'd actually ask out on a Real DATE !!

Most SWs I've met are At LEAST as Intelligent; and even if they don't exactly offer to whip you up a Beef Wellington Dinner, can at least hold up their end of the ten minute conversation on either end your Business together

*Whew!* Thanks for letting me get this Out of my System =

WHY , should I ever find my·self Single again , I would *NEVER*
Date an American Chick !!

Canadian Women: Personally, (since I live here), I think Cdn women are worse than American women. It really seems as if the "femminist movement" really took a strong hold up here. Women here are VERY bossy, arrogant, rude and just plain MISERABLE. They are usually always out to screw you over in any way possible - they suffer from the "lack of penis syndrome". Just look at the workplace now. I'm all for equality, but 9X out of 10, a woman or minority will get the job over a white man - and I should now. My work place has over 200 people in it, and 3/4 of the bosses are.............women and 2/3 of those are........minorities. I'm NOT a racist, but shouldn't it be the best person for the job and not to fill a "racial quotient"? Even the Police Dept in Vancouver here used to be racially biased agaisnt caucasians saying, "I'm sorry, you're very qualified but we need minorities even if they score lower than you". At least the Sgt. was honest.

The sad thing is that since Canada welcomes minorities and "refugee's" with open arms, these immigrants (esp. women) quickly learn that Canada affords them more rights than their homeland and they exploit it - too far! Example #1 : At my wifes work, there's a cambodian chick there who said, "yea, my husband and I got a divorce (but still live together), just so that I can collect "low income subsidy assistance""! Example #2 And another one who was Vietnamese who said "I got a divorce (but still live with hubby) so that I can get welfare, stay home and look after the kids while he's out working!". These people just abuse the system and it really pisses me off. The asians / east indians here know that Cdn women are "strong, tough and proud" and they OVERDUE it to the 100 th extreme. If you even look at them wrong or say the wrong thing, they bring up false charges of "harassement" or some other bullsh*t, just so that they can sue and/or get Employment Insurance Benefits. They know the system better than I do and I was born here!

It's gotten so bad up here that if you even hold a door open for a Canadian lady at a store, they growl at you! I even had one say "I can do that for myself!" sneering away at me.........Stupid c*nts!

Sorry for the rant, but there's a reason why so many men from here (I guess the world over) travel to Asia where the man can indeed be treated like a MAN. What a novel thought!

Chikan

Chikan, I'd have to say that your examples are exceptions rather than the norm. Sure there will always be migrants who play the system, but by and large, they play an integral role in western societies. Regarding the women, well it's just a by-product of years and years of lobbying for equal rights by feminists. Times change my friend, we either roll with them or, get swallowed up and spat out.

To the dude that mentioned that the US has some of the most beautiful women in the "fricken world", it doesn't matter since they have such a shit attitude, realistically they are not that good looking. I've seen proportionally larger numbers of attractive women in Europe, Asia, South America, here in Australia and even certain parts of Canada like Quebec and British Columbia. Since many have a lousy attitude that ruins the bottom line: the shitty attitudes precludes the chance of getting a good lay, so were are back to where we started where American women can't just cut. You go to a bar in Oz meet a pretty girl and if she smiles at you, you buy her a drink and talk and then take her back to your place. In America, I get plenty of friendly smiles but when you get to the conversation part most times you know you are going to exert a tremendous amount of effort for this lady to take her clothes off. I knew this good looking blonde at a place I worked at who always smiled at me, sometimes even walking by my desk and waving hello, a lot of other guys were jealous because this woman liked me. One morning in the parking lot she sees me and sees my car and I walk by and we notice each other, I try to say hello and she looks away. Obviously she was not impressed with my car and she was one of those golddigger types. I haven't run into this in Oz with a woman who was friendly to me, there are no alterior motives with Australian ladies or with women in Europe, Asia, South America, etc. If they express a liking to you they will be honest about it.

Affordable housing in California? Where? Last time I checked the cost of living keeps on skyrocketing in California. I bought a gorgeous brand new property on the outskirts of Sydney near a beach area that costed me $150,000US with 2900sq ft. of living space, that amount couldn't get me a coop even 30 miles outside of Los Angeles. A property similar to the one I purchased would be ten times more expensive in LA. With regards to your statement that women everywhere want something out of a guy, this is true but in many countries women aren't as demanding as those in the US especially when you go to other developed countries with a similar standard of living like in Europe or here in Australia women aren't as materialistic. Also when I have traveled, going out to downtown areas, shopping centers, bars, nightclubs, basically places of public gathering I always see a lot of stunning everyday women doing everyday jobs. Good looking international women tend to be a lot more friendly the reasoning for this is that there are a lot more of them so they don't make a big deal out of themselves that and there aren't a lot of local guys that are rich.

OK, TNH, you've finally revealed yourself -- only a real estate guy would make the case that California is some nirvana of affordable housing. What a hoot!

[i]You don't need to be a real estate agent to compare something sensible.[/i]

Gee, let's see, according to monstermoving.com's city comparison charts (and others agree) -- average cost of a purchased 2000sq ft home in LA is around $406k. Let's look at some other large cities -- in Chicago it's $260k, in Portland and Dallas it's $216k, Minneapolis $218k, Washington DC $342K, Denver $294k, Phoenix $180k, Las Vegas $168k, Miami $180k. NYC (and other places in Cali such as San Fran) is about the only place more expensive. And for what it's worth, LA's cost of living index is 145, with 100 being the national average, so whether it's on the absolute top or not, it's still expensive compared to [i]most[/i] places in the US.

Let me do that for you,

1) Melbourne
2) Brisbane
3) Perth
4) Hobart
5) Darwin
6) Adelaide
7) Canberra
8) Sydney

Los Angeles does have expensive housing, but with low interest rates its not really that bad. If your willing to live an hour away from Los Angeles like me, you can get a really nice house for $250,000.( don't ask about the commute, and yes those 250K houses are going fast)

But look what you get, besides the nice weather:
You can look for SW's in in Hollywood, on Sunset, is still one of the best places in the U.S. to find Prostitutes. The James Woods area, TNH talks about. Downtown area around 7th, skid roll, very nasty, but one in awile something great. Los Angeles area Figueroa, if you like them black, and dangerous. If you like asian, go to most cities in Los Angeles(MP'"), or take a drive towards the Inland Empire.( $40 to get in, sometimes as low as $60 for FS)
For more asian, in SGV, the private houses.( usually need a Asian friend to help you get in,but oh so great.) If your into Callgirls, I'm not, you have a big selection.

You also have other outlets for pussy, some cheap and other expensive. Las Vegas, 45 min away by plane, 5 hours by car.
My favorite spot- T.J. Mexico, is only 90 minutes away by car. Mexican pussy as low as $20, good beer, and food. (I usually get two girls, Bar girl rated 8 for $50, and then a SG for $25, lots of beer and 1/2 pill of Viagra 100mg, all for a little over $100 dollars.)

I think Los Angeles is a good deal in more ways then one.

disclaimer- I have a Real Estate license, but only use it for investments purposes for myself, and since the stock market, has been so good lately; I don't even follow Real Estate closely.

May I Remind you Gentlemen that the Subject here
is AMERICAN WOMEN , *NOT* Real Estate

Now , Some might say that if you *really* want to Get Screwed by an American Woman = Hire her to be your Real Estate Agent

But That Discussion belongs over in :

http://www.realestateagent.com/

[ Isn't That Blond on their Home Page HOT ?? ]

I'm a bit confused. LA is more expensive than 99% of the real estate markets in the world. So what if there is a dozen or so places that rivals or exceeds it in price. It's still mega-expensive. TAH please tell me what this has to do with American women. You've lost me.

Civ2K

TNH, LA is the 19th most expensive real estate market in the world. That would easily put it in the top 1%, even among industrialized nations; possibly the top .05%. That's where I get my 99%. I take it you didn't do so well in math.

Anyway, my point is what does this have to do with American women being bigger snobs than the rest of the women in the world?

Civ2K

TallnHandsome, it's not that Perth chicks are that much better looking, just the mere fact that they're not as pretentious as the Sydney ones. Sure Perth is boring if all you're after is women but hey, I like to look at the whole picture. That's why I'd never live anywhere but in Melbourne. If you're ever in this neck of the woods, I'd happily give you a guided tour.

[blue]Report deleted by Admin.[/blue]

I came on a Boeing 747 Megatop. You prick! I'm not going to bother answering a redneck like you. Perhaps as a baby, someone dropped you really hard on your head. I have more faith in our caucasion friends here than you. I'm sure most of them do not harbour racist attitudes like yours.


Oh, and you are the biggest disgrace to leave our Aussie shores since the wiggles.

PH,

If you are truly a representation of us white guys, then I'd much rather prefer to be Asian. You are without doubt the biggest disgrace on this forum.

Come on fellas speak up. Otherwise this lunatic will think you all support his views.

PH, there's a huge difference between complaining about bias in job hiring based on racial issues and saying that "no decent white man" would be with an Asian woman or that 99% of all Asians would do absolutely anything for money. Job hiring criteria is a fact, pure and simple, and having or not having an attitude about it depends on where you sit -- Chikan's complaint is far from unique and it's based on disappointing personal experience. Your opinions about the general superiority of the white race over others is simply boring racist crapola.

There -- feel better?

This is supposed to be about American women. But we must also briefly discuss Australian wanna be women. Why does a tough, hairy ocker take a female name - Pauline - as a nic. Paul means small and ine means small. So it is doubly small. And cute and female. Most white guys here might be card carrying KKK members, cross burners and general ass holes like Pauline. But this is not a democracy so their viewe, though interesting, do not form policy. Jackson is the duce, and FAQ 40 reads in part as follows:

40. What is SPAM?
Spam is defined as postings to the Forum that are contrary to the purpose of the site, including:
Hate Messages
Racist Messages
Race Taunting

Some overlap there but it essentially means Pauline: go wear your white hood and dress somewhere else. Maybe torch a few Aboriginals or beat up a few Asian schoolkids, wahtever it takes to get your rocks off, mate.

Chikan: shit happens. Vancouver and Canada have changed. Just like Australia. And Japan which is overrun by yen grabbing no good white bastards like

(Rec) JT Skinless

[blue]Report deleted by Admin.[/blue]

Jackson, allow me please to state my views. Let us all have a reasonable debate about this without censorship. I would honestly like to know your humble opinion as well.

[blue]Sure, you can state your opinions, as long as they pretain to the purpose of this Forum, which is to provide for the exchange of information between Men on the subject of finding Women for Sex.

Any more BS from you on any other subjects, and specifically your opinions on the subject of race, will result in your immediate removal from this website.

Jackson[/blue]

Hurrah Jackson !

The anonymity (sp?) of the internet really brings out the worst in people.

Ok lets get back to the topic at hand. It is true that there is a big difference in attitude between American women and the women of the rest of the planet. Women in the States tend to be more self centered and selfish. They like men for sex but at the same time hate them for being human. American women like to be someone else at the drop of a hat when it suits them. Just look at that corporate game show where the women use the tits and ass routine to beat the men. I have seen American whine about equality and sexism but they always use the T and A routine to get ahead in life when it becomes convenient. I liked the part when the women managed the restaurant they offered to drink shots of booze with the male customers. If the male team tried to offer to drink shots with female customers they would have gotten their pants sued off for sexual harrassment. Then when they win they boast about how much more capable they are then the men at running a business and all that crap. What a bunch of bullshit, its the typical arrogant American female attitude. A few years ago I talked to an American female friend about a trip to Europe, in particular Amsterdam, and she was telling me all this stuff about how horrible women are treated and that all Dutch women wind up as prostitutes and other horror stories. It turns out I had a damn good time in Amsterdam and now if an American female says something negative about how life for women is in a particular country, I visit the place because its probably going to be very good for a man who wants to get laid. You'll often here feminists say horrible things about a number of places including Australia and most of Europe and South America, but from a guy's perspective these places can be nirvana.

[blue]Report deleted by Admin.[/blue]

Just found a hilarious website almost custom-tailored to this topic:

http://www.meish.org/vd/

Also, there are just a few points I'd like to bring up:

* Today is Valentine's Day

* I live in America (Indianapolis, Indiana, The "Heartland")

* I have nobody to celebrate with

* And all I can think of are two small words: HELL YES!!!!

-- Lookr

Over the past 20 years or so, it appears to me that the entire process of socialization, and specifically cultural expectations has changed drastically for American women. As "gender equality" becomes an ever more realistic goal, gender-related differences begin to evaporate. In the US, particularly among middle class, educated women, the idea of "appearing feminine" has actually fallen into disrepute. Simply put, American women take ever less pleasure in their femininity, and are ever more determined to demonstate not only their equality to men, but their superiority. It can be therefore, exhausting for an American male to confront this phenomonon on a regular basis, not only at work, but also at home.

In other countries, including most of those in Western Europe, women, for the most part, enjoy all of the attributes typically associated with femininity. That is, they celebrate the gender difference without finding it demeaning, demoralizing, or self-defeating. It's refreshing for an American man, who may be looking for an equal, but not a competitor in his bed and in his life.

American women, while they are rabidly feminist and independent, they are also the most racist and ethnocentric women on the planet. I have often witnessed the condescending behavior and attitude of American female tourists in Cancun towards the local Mexican males. A lot of these guys are just trying to be friendly and hospitable and they act like total bitches. One time I heard a group of American females at a resort in Cancun expresssing diatribe after diatribe about the local men. One of the most racist comments I heard from one of the ladies was "These Mexican dudes think they can hook up with me?? Yeah right, I only go for blonde hair blued eyed guys from Seattle." She later made another nasty comment about the complexion of the local guys. If you witness the behavior of European lady in the same resort, it is like night and day, they are far less condescending and often are a lot friendlier to the local guys. What I am getting at is that American women are very STATUS oriented, they look at a what they perceive is a man's economic value to value a man's ability as a boyfriend, husband, or lover. I'm in Australia, and the local women have an attitude similar to that of Europeans. A lot of locals laugh when I tell them that I left the US not because of politics or socioeconomic issues but the fact that American women are BITCHES with a capital B.

CBGBConnisur,

Yes, they are Bitches with a capital B. Great Posting.

If you want to see them turn into even bigger bitches (if that's even possible), let it slip to an American woman that you prefer foreign women and go overseas to meet women and have sex. Wow, they really lose it.

For example, I have a sister-in-law who found out about my trips abroad and she was not only angered buy genuinely mystified. She asked repeatedly what a woman in Eastern Europe has that an American woman does not. After a few glasses of wine I told her. Not a good idea on my part. By the way, my brother has told me he'd give anything to join me. Says his wife is an asexual disaster. Says she's a "roommate" and not a wife.

Single American women take it even worse it seems. They can't fathom that American men would reject them and they really become livid. Their anger and indignation is really something to see.

Paddy

it's all about the money with american women, they couldn't care less about you as a partner. i guy could have a lousy toupee but have a lot of money and american women will be on him like peanut butter on wonder bread. the example of the american women i saw in cancun is so indicative of the status oriented attitude that american women have, and nothing seems to impress them, and taken the fact that there are amazing women elsewhere, why bother?
and that paris hilton chic? everyone in the us is making such a big deal about her? who really cares, because if you go to germany or some scandinavian country you will see millions of paris hiltonlike clones.

I think CBGB may have hit it on the head when he mentioned the "Feminist" thing. The worst thing that seems to have come out of the feminist movement in America is that women are either ashamed of being women or pissed off that they're not men. This may not be just due to the feminist movement though, hundreds of years ago the Puritans had a huge influence on American culture and that influence is still around. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for equal pay for equal work and all that, I believe that women and men can be equal but it has to be understood that we're different. The difference isn't just the obvious difference in physical attributes, but also in the way we think. Men tend to be more direct when solving problems, women tend to look for a less antagonistic alternative (they want to find an open door as opposed to breaking a window when trying to get into a locked building, for instance). I think that American women are finally coming to the conclusion that they can't be men, so in their circuitous way of solving what they perceive as a problem, they are trying to turn men into women (or at least get us to behave in a manor acceptable to them) - via "political correctness", etc.

I've found it a little difficult to adjust to the way things are in the USA these days after spending most of the last 20 years outside the country. A while back, I was temporarily assigned to my company's headquarters (I live in another state), there was this absolutely gorgeous woman working there, she always wore tight skirts & low cut blouses & 3" heels that made her tits bounce all over the place when she walked. I made a comment about how hot she looked & was instantly reprimanded and told to keep my opinions to myself, or I could be fired on grounds of sexual harrassment! WTF? I don't think I was in any position to harrass her as she didn't work for me, I was merely making an observation that her attempts to make herself sexually attractive had worked!

The London office had another problem with dress codes - this one group that I did a lot of business with required the men to wear dress shoes, slacks, shirt with a tie. The women would routinely show up in sweats or jeans & doc martins or tennis shoes and their hair looked like they had just rolled out of bed! These people dealt directly with our clients. When I asked the head of that group (an American) about their dress code, he said that after discussing it with the company lawyers, he didn't think that he could tell the women how to dress without running the risk of offending them and getting mired in a sexual harrassment case. Again, WTF?

Paddy,

I was once on a flight from London to Bangkok and there was a British guy in the row in front of me who was speaking to these two British women sitting next to him. Seems he was having the same conversation that you had with your sister in law - he went into great detail about how it was better for a man to fly to Thailand & be assured of sex (for a small fee) with a lovely young lady than to stay in Britain and spend far more money on some slag who may or may not give it up at the end of the night - he really seemed to be enjoying himself, but the ladies seemed rather horrified. I thought it was very amusing to just sit and listen, far superior to the inflight entertainment provided by British Airways.

CW

CBGB,

Yes, money is a big, big issue with American women. It's a virtual prerequisite to even get to first base. I'd like to take this even one step further, though. I would assert that even if you have money (almost all of my friends are 100K plus) you STILL get their attitude. Many of the guys in my circle of friends have money, looks, etc. and they're still frustrated as hell. Many of them don't even bother to date or go to places to meet women anymore. They've actually given up. They all say that it isn't worth it. In fact, several of them are exploring those internet sites advertising women from Russia and the former Soviet Union. They're being cautious of course. One guy is going over there this summer to meet a particular woman from Estonia that he has been communicating with via one of those services. Soo...

Like you, I wish that American women could walk around Oslo, Copenhagen or Prague for example and see the extraordinary number of beautiful women there. These women relish in their femininity and don't view themselves as goddesses. Women in these cities are also friendly, approachable and don't subject you to the manipulative and controlling agendas that American women seem to almost universally possess. The differences are really startling. American women are permanently off my radar screen.

Paddy

Paddy,
Need to make a few comments on your remarks about Danish women. I speak with over 30 yrs. experience.

Pros:
Yes, Scandinavian women are extremely attractive physically. They are also quite friendly, feminine and approachable. They make good friendships. They are less inhibited in bed.

Cons:
Scoring them is not easier than American women. Many are equally high maintainance as their US sisters. They are prosessive, dominating, manipulative, selfish and they really think they are goodesses. I know 5 American men and one British gent all divorced from their first Danish wives. The worst IMO is the overweight American epidemic has arrived in Europe.

That's why I'm looking towards latinas and Asian this year.

I hope Tiger Woods knows what he is doing.

Anyway, I have a question regarding Southern European women. In my experience with Spanish and Italian women, they tend to be more feminine and sweet than American women, having the same philosophy and outlook on life like Latin and Filipino women.

Is my experience an anomaly? I do hope that European women as a whole are not turning out like their sisters across the Atlantic.

The majority of European women are nothing like American women, Thank God. The catch is though if you take them back across the Atlantic to the USA, they will make friends with local American women and then metamorphasize into ball kicking bitches. I have seen this happen many times. Environment influences human behavior, its a herdlike mentality that drilled into humans to copy one another. Europe's culture is less feminist than the US and Canada so women are different there. US women are more independent and enjoy ball stomping even if you are a good looking guy. European women overall are better looking physically and have better personalities, they smile a lot more, I always had women I didn't know in public places smile at me in Europe, in the US they rarely even make eye contact since they are too absorbed into their own little world. In Italy and Spain you will find tons of hot women and their attitude in general is better than what you find in North America, in general most European girls are not as materialistic as their US counterparts.

NYC Expat,

Thanks for the info regarding women from Copenhagen. I only spent about 1 week there. I noticed that they were stunning and had no problems meeting them, etc. I was probably just lucky.

Are there any other cities to avoid in your experiences? Thanks.

Paddy, don't get discouraged by the comment about the ups and downs of Danish women. For the STR, they are definitely good, but for LTR, these women are human beings and have their flaws, the bottom line is that average Danish woman is still a big improvement over the typical North American lady and you will get the main thing, pussy. NYC hit it on the mark about Asians and Latinas, they are tops with regards to the overall experience but if you like blonde hair blue eyes you will do well in a Scandinavian country, Germany, and, and Holland. The financial investment of getting a woman from one of these places into bed is lower but the social investment is about the same as with American women.

I vote British women as the worst by a wide margin! Rather than ramble I'll do this in point form.

- they are overweight or very overweight with bad cellulite.

- they wear scruffy clothes that make them even uglier.

- they don't have an ass to speak of.

- they have short "lesbian" style haircuts.

- many rarely have a proper wash or take care of themselves. (get on any public transport in the UK and you'll smell the body odour).

- they wear vast quanties of badly applied make-up.

- they hate sex, infact sex has only been invented in order to degrade women according to your average British girl.

- recent surveys by womens magazines have shown;

- 70 % of british women would rather eat chocolate than have sex.

- 35% will not have sex until they have dated for 3 months or more

- 25% of couples don't have sex.

- average is 3 times per month for 5-8 minutes per session.

- 43% of british women suffer from sexual dysfunction.

- even if dating a guy, they won't make public statements of affection such as holding hands, sitting in close proximity or putting their arm around their boyfriend.

- Despite their hatred of sex, STD's are at a high, mainly due to their lack of hygiene as mentioned above.

- they get drunk every Friday and Saturday night.

- they can't dance.

- they hate guys who DARE date foreign girls.

- they hate guys who speak a second language.

- they can't hold an intelligent conversation.

- they go to bars to milk drinks out of guys who should know better.

- they think any guy who speaks to them is a pig and just after sex.

- they think they are the best thing in the world.

I think thats it! Our divorce rate is at 50%, any wonder??

More thoughts:

I moved out here to Indianapolis from San Jose last June, and lemme tell ya, the women are just as bad in Indy as they are in Silicon Valley.

Anyway, a few months ago at one of my two local hangouts here in Indianapolis, I had my usual stogie and booze. The bartender, a Sarah Jessica Parker look-alike, began extolling the virtues of marriage. The primary virtue held that it was the man's duty to "care and provide for the wife, even if she drove him into bankruptcy."

My response? "I want my wife to make more money than me!"

Well, lemme tell ya, about twenty other women in the bar heard that and their heads almost came unglued from their torsos as they turned to gawk at me.

I generally regard myself as a pretty considerate guy. But in cases like this, NO APOLOGIES, NO EXCUSES. That was probably the best damned cigar I'd ever smoked that night.

Heh, well, it just came about this past week that I received in invitation to attend a longtime friend's wedding ... in Otterswier, Germany. :) I definitely think fate has come to my rescue. Though I'll be surrounded by a bunch of Americans (and invariably some American women), I know that as a single guy I'll be able to mingle much more easily with the local population and consequently draw the ire of the American (and Americanized) women there.

Time to get my redemption on.

-- L

lookr, German women will be refreshingly different from American women so you will be in for a pleasant surprise. In physical appearance they are similar, but in their attitude towards sex, they are far more liberated in the bedroom. In fact nearly 2 and half years ago, I arrived in Germany at around 6 in the afternoon on a Friday and only 20 hours later, I met the woman of my dreams.

Cutting Edge,

I actually see a lot of similarity between British and American women. It's interesting that you brought up the chocolate thing, I once read an article that tried to explain that by saying that one of the active ingredients in chocolate (I think it had bromide or something like that in the name) which is a stimulant, similar to caffiene actually triggers, in women, the same hormonal response as an orgasm. It's apparently not limited to American and British women, they just seem to indulge in chocolate more than women of other nationalities.

I once worked with a British guy who moved his British girlfriend and her kids to Fortaleza, Brasil. I was heading that way, so got some intel on the fam from some of the other guys at work. They said Mom was really cool (she was in her late 40's I think), but her daughter, who was in her early 20's was to be avoided. She was apparently one of those rare good looking british girls, but she was a total *****. I enquired as to how I could spot her & thus, avoid her and was unanimously told to "look for the good looking blondish chick who acts like she has a carrot shoved up her ass!" About a week into my trip, I was sitting at my table at "the gringo bar" (correct bar name was actually Jurema Drinks, gringo bar was a nickname due to a number of reasons I'm not going to get into here) when this family just decides to sit down. I observed the new arrivals who weren't speaking yet, just giving me the occasional smile, when I determined that the young lady had at least a carrot, or possibly an entire fig tree shoved up her ass - total *****, and she hadn't even begun to speak! Being the "gentleman" that I am, I introduced myself and said "you must be (name deleted by me)'s family" needless to say, I was correct and they were absolutely amazed at my keen deductive abilities. I had drinks with Mom a couple more times during my stay in Fortaleza, she was cool with guys chasing after the Brasillieras, but the daughter seemed to really hate all the gringos. The daughter was allegedly getting her fill of the Brasillieros (she said she had a "stable", never went out with the same guy two days in a row), just hated the gringos because we wouldn't put up with her attitude.

Over the years, I've definitely met a number of stunning British women and a few of these actually had decent attitudes, but they're definitely very rare. However, this board is supposed to be about American women isn't it?

Tall,

I wash mine at least once a day, when I shower in the morning. If it has been dipping into a warm and juicy place, then it'll usually get washed again afterwards. Back in the day, when I was living in Brasil, I was rarely the one doing the washing after the fact, it was usually the gatchinha, who had just serviced me that did the washing up, this of course usually wound up leading up to another round, followed by a wash-up, followed by another round, etc (pure hell, I assure you). She would generally clean herself up on the bidet immediately after I was finished, on her return to the bed, she would bring the wash cloth to clean junior. The only other place I've been where the women are so fastidious about keeping their kitty and my equipment clean is Thailand.

CW

Did anyone ever see Average Joe 1 and 2? Both times the girl picked the handsome stud rather than the average guy with a nice personality. This definitely proves that women can be as superficial as men. That's an accusation women have made of men for years. Its so wonderful to find out that women are no different. All that bullshit about talking right, being open emotionally to her, having charm, or knowing how her psychology was all BS well at least for North American women. In other places, South America, Europe, Asia, and Australia, you will find a lot of Average Joes with some spectacular ladies. The charm and gentleman approach works with International babes but not with North Americans who are just to cynical and emotionally brickwalled to care if you really care for them. The second Average Joe was very good indictment of the American female psyche, that dude from Boston pulled out all the stops, was a totally nice guy, and in the end that girl felt nothing for him. So she went with the good looking guy who ditched her because she dated Fabio. Ha ha she got what she deserved.

Hi Cash Works,

I guess this girl you knew had to keep changing boyfriends as the Brasilian guys wouldn't put up with her nonsense. She'll have a very difficult job keeping a guy there, a Brazilian girl is very attentive, sexually liberal and passionate. I guess she hated gringos because they didn't give her any attention and it brought home the fact that she was nothing in Brasil. Back in the UK she would have boosted her ego every Fri/Sat night blowing off willing (drunken)suitors.

I find the double standards of British women quite funny as well. According to them, if a British guy dates a foreign girl then she must be after his money,passport etc. However, hoards of British women go to the Caribbean or Turkey/Morocco and end up bringing back some waiter they hooked up with.

Some members of this board may say that they go to the Caribbean for a larger penis, however I would say the correct reason is to make up for their slack vaginas. One conspicuous thing is that the body tone of your average female in the UK is sloppy and without substance. Compare this to the body tone of a Brasilian girl who could be best described as a stress ball on legs.

It seems the slutty reputation of the British female extends as far as Brasil. On a previous trip I meet a Brazilian girl who had done 3 months in the UK at a language school, she said " ah yes, the Englishmen are very polite but when they try to speak to the girl, she will say " f**k off you w**nker", but when the English girls go abroad on holiday they f**k everybody, the waiter, the barman etc."

CBCG Connisur

British chicks are the same as well, they talk all this nonsense but really want a boyband look a like who's stupid and going to give them money for nothing.
Whats so puzzling is that many of these girls with the real bad attitude who constantly give aggro to any men around them always end up with the biggest skank in town who spends have his life in prison. The other even more puzzling thing is that most of these chicks are fat and ugly, only 1 week back I was down at the mall with a friend, this chick gave us such a dirty look, funnily she was about 5ft 2 in tall, 25 years old and about 20stones(280LB).!! (I'd rather use my right hand).

If you are going to bash women about the double standard, don't forget the double whopper standard! ;o)

Women in this country just blow up and expand. Nothing is scarier than a woman with a bigger waistline than you.

Obesity to Be #1 Killer in America
http://news.yahoo.com/fc?tmpl=fc&cid=34&in=health&cat=obesity_and_weight_issues

Apparently by the year 2020(as reported by the BBC), it is predicted that 1 in 3 British women will be obese.

Hmm...

Have been to the UK and Ireland many times and have found the women to be extremely friendly and approachable. They're very, very different than women in the US of A. While the obesity thing may be coming, women from the UK are generally more fit and fashionable than American women at this time. Met many, many nice women in Manchester and Liverpool both pro and non-pro.

If you want to see fat, masculine appearing, mean-spirited, man haters, just come to the states and the Midwest in particular.

One question that I have about american women is why is it that they have so many lesbians in this country? everywhere I turn or go I meet lesbians, is this normal in other parts of the world? or is this just happening in the states. I think thats part of the reason why american females have such negative attitudes towards men in general. I've talked to so many lesbians that I work with and they are in general extreme femenist. I just don't understand why they hate american men so much. Its strange for me not been an american and seem it from a diferent point of view.

Paddy, it all depends what you are used to. I've spent over 1 year in South America and coming back to the UK, I rarely see a girl that gets my blood going. Where did you go exactly in Manchester and Liverpool where you meet all these nice non-pro girls? I'm intrigued :-)

Cutting Edge,

Yes, I'd bet that the women and the scene in SA is the best.

The best place in Manchester was 'The Living Room' by far with the 'Crown & Anchor' second. The Living Room was full of women every night and they were dressed to kill. Groups of women everywhere and very friendly. A couple of them even bought me drinks??? One night, a group of them invited me to dinner afterward and refused to let me pay the bill. Could you imagine something like this happening in America? No way. One other night a girl whom I had been talking with for much of the night gave me her e-mail and she kissed me goodnight for about 10 minutes. Had we been alone I have little doubt that we would have gone for it right there on the floor. I have many fond memories of Manchester and its women. Glad I went.

In reference to Liverpool, I can't remember the names of the places. I hooked up with these 3 blokes in a pub and they took me all over town. Met many nice and friendly women as we moved from place to place. Overall, Manchester and Liverpool were vastly different from the scene here in the states. If it weren't for the exchange rate, I would seriously consider spending extended periods of time in the UK.

Cutting Edge,

Forgot to mention that the girl who gave me the 10 minute goodnight kiss at The Living Room was very drunk. I had been buying her drinks for about two hours. Still, it was quite and experience for an American guy. Everything is relative I guess.

Paddy

I have always viewed most American woman as people whom look at what you have rather than whom you are . But , then again unfortunate experiences taint my opinion .

I live on Cape Cod in Massachusetts, USA . Having a divese community that consists of many S.A. and Euro woman I ask many questions as small talk can bring. With this, I have gathered that woman from other countries, most in the baltic region, regard American woman as people that have been pampered and spoiled thoughout thier lives . Therefore, it is in thier general opinion that the good looking American gal is self centered so to speak. This generalization I agree with. If you don't have it ($) you won't get it type attitude. Too bad because there are many people within this would, both man and woman whom are warm hearted and spirited regadless of the size of thier wallet or purse yes?

Like my dad told me as a young man: "you wait 9 months waiting to get out of the hole, then you spend the rest of your life trying to get back in". Thanks Dad, seems your right again. LOL

[size=-2][u]EDITOR's NOTE[/u]: [blue]Posting of this report was delayed pending revisions to [u]remove the extra blank spaces before commas and periods[/u]. To avoid delays in future reports, please do not add a blank space in front of commas and periods. [i]Thanks![/i][/blue][/size]

Hi all! Sinanjumaster here! I've returned after a LOOOOONG hiatus. Other matters demanded my attention that had to be taken care of. Holy crap! I see that my compadres Dickhead, Paddy, and Joe Zop among others are still in the trenches fighting the good fight! Keep up the good work guys! It's always good to know that there are LEGIONS of guys who are sick and tired of putting up with S*** and are doing something about it. To BATTLE, MEN! LOL

Cutting Edge,

It was a long time ago, but as I recall, she did have a number of Brasillian guys chasing after her in spite of her attitude. Strange as it may seem, they appeared to be attracted to her in some masochistic way. They were all fairly young, however, late teens to early twenties. It's possible that they just didn't know any better or, they could have been going after a wife that could get them a visa in the UK. I suppose it could have been a contrast kink of sorts - she was basically the complete opposite of most Brisillian women. Who knows?

PanamaJack,

Lesbians in the US. I haven't a clue. But I could speculate that they see it as the only way to have sex without prostituting themselves. As continuously noted throughout this forum, American women won't give you a second glance unless you've got plenty of cash. With this in mind, it could be speculated that subconsiously, lesbians see all heterosexual women as prostitutes & since American society/morality condemns prostitutes, the lesbian subconsious concludes that the only way they can have sex & not be condemned as prostitutes is to have sex with other women. Lesser of two evils?

Another possibility, which has also been mentioned here is that many American women view sex as an act which is being performed upon them, like they're not an active participant or something, regardless of the position/act being performed. Most lesbians are women who enjoy sex, so maybe they want to be an active participant in the sex act and can't see that happening with a man, who would, by this definition be the one performing the sex act upon her.

I've never actually had this discussion with any lesbians, so it's pure speculation.

CW

Sinanjumaster,

Welcome back, dude! What have you been up to? I trust that you've been getting laid and having a good time.

Yeah, I'm not taking any more of this jive from American women. Will be in Prague in three weeks. Can hardly wait. They have REAL women there who don't view sex as a mechanism to control men.

Good hearing from you.

Paddy

I was in the UK/Europe the last two weeks. Yes there are some fat & ugly ladies but in general the women are much friendlier than those in the US. Those guys who never been outside the US were stunned by how attractive and charming British girls are compared with American women.

I could easily strike a conversation with in the train or the bus or even on a British Airways flight. There is no comparison just go on an American Airlines flight to London and see what I mean. This is one of the reasons that is making me want to settle in Europe.

I agree with Paddy.

Chorfa1, your post reminds me of when I first came across that revelation myself. It was like Keanu Reeves in the Matrix when he became aware that there was another world out there and freed himself. Visiting a foreign country, at first, it was weird to encounter beautiful women who were delightfully well-mannered and actually approachable! It was like being on another planet, and I didn't want to leave! Eventually, I had to come back to reality. That caused me to crave offshore beauties even MORE SO. In conclusion, I'm currently engaged in efforts to make that possibility occur more often if not outright permanent-like.

Paddy, many thanx for the "Welcome Back"! I'd almost forgotten the camraderie of exchanging ideas and posts with my brothers-in-arms!

British---American ....hi guys, I've actually found American women to be more friendly than British women. I think we can put this down to curiosity, when a foreigner talks to them, them what to know a bit more or give you the benefit of doubt. However, if you are from their home country, you're just another sick man looking to have sex with them!

Paddy, how much did those drinks cost you in the living room? Probably more than the price of an allnighter in the 3rd world. Maybe you struck lucky that night, generally it is a rare sight to see a girl kissing a guy in public over here. If they are, then usually it s a 'peck peck' type of kiss.

Tip for those in cities who want to meet foreign women. www.meetup.com I am going to meet the Russians in London on wednesday under the pretence of needing Russian lessons!

Cutting Edge,

I think you hit the nail on the head with the "curiosity, when a foreigner talks to them" comment. Maybe it's some primordial urge to expand the gene pool or something - locals are too familiar & therefore wouldn't make good mates - too much chance of inbreeding - foreigners, by definition, are unfamiliar & therefore safe bets against inbreeding.

CW

Cutting Edge, you may have a point there. I remember when I was once in Atlantic City and I was chatting with a Polish guy and he said that Polish women are bitches. I was thinking: "Huh"? The Polish chicks I met up until that time were pleasant to be around and beautiful. I guess the "exotic" factor allows a guy from another country to cut through the ever present defenses that women have in place. But hey, it ain't like I'm not gonna use that to my advantage! LOL

Cuttingedge,

Yeah, you're right. The cost of the drinks could have eaily paid for an encounter at one of the many great Saunas in Manchester. The situation, however, was that I had just come from a punt at Sandy's Superstars and went straight to The Living Room. So, I already had my fun for the evening.

It was just that the girl I met at The Living Room was so nice and charming. Talking to her, looking at her, etc. while we were both getting ripped was such a unique experience that I didn't want to stop. I'm from the Midwest and experiences like this are not to be passed up.

Paddy, its strange that you pulled this chick after visiting a sauna. For some reason I've had similar experiences where I've been to a terma(sauna), serviced a chick then within an hour some normal girl has started chatting me up etc. I eventually I put this down to the girls scent I had laid still being on me, other girls could smell this and were subconciously attracted by it. They always say its easier to get a chick when you already have one. I suppose it is a confirmation that you are worth having.

On a financial note, I figure British women must be the most expensive lays in the world if the stats are anything to go by.

Average length of sex act in the UK = 5 - 8minutes

Average sexual acts per month = 3 - 4

Divorce rate = 50%

Average time elapsed prior to divorce = 5 years

therefore .. 7 x 4 x 12 x 5 = 28 hrs of sex during married life.

Average house price in UK = £180,000 ---- divide by 2

= £90,000

Approximately £3,000 per hour, that excludes all those sundry expenses though, plus the maintenance etc!!

Cutting Edge,

A compelling financial analysis for seeking out prostitutes vs. a woman for marriage. Although many married guys have long suspected such a cost-benefit disaster, you've laid it out in actual dollars. Well done!

I would also wager that if one factored American women into your analysis, matters would come out even worse.

Yes, isn't it strange how one often meets another woman right after having sex. It's like once you're on a a roll, you just keep going. A guy can also get on a roll in the other direction, too.

Marriage is a waste of time. Just find a woman you hate and buy her a house. Then come here to Buenos Aires and screw a different woman, or two, or three, every day until your dick falls off.

Paddy & Cutting Edge - and any others living in the land of POME's,

I think Cutting Edge is right about the scent, pheremones are supposed to be a very powerful tool when it comes to attracting the opposite sex & the fact that you just had sex, I think, means that your pheremones will be a bit stronger than normal. I suppose it could be that the other womans scent turned her on as well.

One thing I've always found interesting, is that married men seem to get hit on by single women a hell of a lot more than single guys. I don't know if any of you are familiar with The Tower, in Hull (very large & very loud disco/techno bar) - they have a section inside the club that is actually fairly quiet & set up like a pub. About 6 years ago, I was drinking beer there with 3 of my friends, 2 of them were married (one British, one American), the third, who lives in Thailand (he's American), had a ring that was turned around so it looked like a wedding band. There were a few women in this part of the club & as soon as they saw the "wedding bands" they were all over these guys. Being the only guy in our group without a ring, I felt compelled to enquire as to why they were so attracted to guys who were obviously married - the girls all said something along the lines of "guaranteed: NO STRINGS ATTACHED!" They were after a one night stand & figured that a married guy would do the deed and never bother them again. I have to say, that none of these girls were, IMHO, terribly attractive, but you tend to notice when you're the only one who looks single in the group and you're also the only one in the group that the girls aren't terribly interested in (vanity?). While my American accent helped, they said that they didn't want to take a chance with a single guy! My buddy from Thailand never let on that his ring was turned around.

CW

What is with this apologist mentality towards American woman? Everyone is trying to point to some external factor for the negative experiences that are so common with North American females. Some go as far as to blame us guys and our attitude. One guy even said a lot of us American males are bitter and even envious towards our females. Bitterness? Ha! What a bunch of bull, I am in no way bitter towards American women. What I am bitter for is the false media hype and baseless propaganda that American women are the best in the world. There are some idiots around the globe who think that American women are better than their own local ladies. I even knew a Brazilian who watched Baywatch and honestly thought the typical American lady looks like Yasmine Bleeth and Pamela A. There are numbskulls like this all around the world who have a TV or who has seen an American movie that gullibly believe that the typical American woman looks like Britney Spears or Angelina Jolie. That is total nonsense because women like Britney and Angelina represent a very small elite group of American woman who can be considered sexy, and I would say women in this category are probably one percent or less. In most good European countries women of the "hot" uberclass as we know it in the USA represent at least 33% percent of the population. I can walk through Amsterdam and find that 2/3rd's of the women in that city are sexually attractive and at least half of that proportion would give me an instant hard-on. When I was in Germany, I saw similar stats, at least one third of the women there in their 20's were hot and this contrasted sharply with the USA where in most cities only a tiny percentage of the women were attractive. Only in places in the sunbelt states the percentage of attractive ladies go up as in Miami and LA, even then the women there have a ***** factor. Australia also has plenty of lovely ladies and due to the fact that it is immigrant friendly with large numbers of women from Asia, Europe and South Africa entering the country, the number of hotties will continually increase.

As for Australia a lot of American guys should really visit this country and see how the local Australian men treat the women here, its quite shocking, because despite the fact that Australian women are some of the most attractive and charming in the world, they are often treated harshly by the local Australian men. There is a lot of chauvinism down under and a more a guy from North America who is generally more gentlemanly towards women is going to do a lot better than the local Aussie guys. The other issue is the exoticism factor, where an American male accent will be seen as interesting, sexy, and exotic.

CBGBConnisur, you've twitched my antennae regarding Australia. I've always (since a kid) wanted to go there, and NOW I know why!

To digress for a second; a coworker who is in marital shackles (and a PRIME candidate for conversion to this website) actually had some HUGE cojones for a minute and told his selfish b**** of a warden (whoops! I meant WIFE) "If you keep talking shit like THAT, I'll trade you in for a 26 year old who WILL kiss my ass"! Man, for a second, I felt he developed a cape, a pair of red boots and an "S" on his chest, I was so proud of him! LOL

So, CBGBConnisur, have you been there many times? If so, did you concentrate your efforts on the major cities like Sydney or did you actually travel out west to the more remote parts?

I actually moved here to Australia. I'm currently based in Sydney. As far as women all the big Australian cities are excellent. Sydney is the biggest city and has the most variety. Perth is one the West coast and is the most laid back Australian city. Perth is good if you like Asian women and there are a lot over there. Melbourne also has a lot of laid back bohemian types, there's even a brothel that is traded on the stock exchange in Melbourne. Brisbane has a lot of blonde Pamela Anderson look alikes. Queensland and a lot of resort areas will be filled with lots of eye candy. The American accent works wonders with Australian women so its pretty easy to score, to them its something refreshing, kind of the reverse with American women who like Australian guys.

New Zealand also has a lot of sexy women, there are a lot of mixed Polynesian-European women in New Zealand and they have to be seen to be believed, some of them are Tia Carrere clones.

I bought a gigantic four bedroom home just outside Sydney for only $150,000US. Actually Sydney is expensive relative to other Australian cities but compared to New York or Los Angeles it is nothing like LA or New York. Apartments in downtown Sydney are generally more expensive than private homes in the outskirts. The Bondi Beach area though is the happy hunting ground for lovely ladies.

CBGBConnisur, did you apply for and gain Aussie citizenship, or is the country a "base of operations" for you? My interest grows with each of your posts.

Rastaman, your posts are hooking me too...

There is definitely a difference in the behavior of most Australian women versus their US counterparts. One of the biggest is that they don't ask what I do for a living, the car I drive, where I live, where I went to school, which are basically probing questions to determine my earning capacity. An American woman often sees a new guy as a potential piggy bank. I really don't see this attitude with Australian ladies in fact some women I have ran into here are turned off by greedy corporate types. Things that Australian ladies generally value more are personality, attitude, and looks.

I'm not from the US but I live in NY, and most of the women I've met (whether american, black, latino) living in this city, are liberal and cool to hang out with; however, when dating them it's a completely different issue as they play too many mind games and have lots of restrictions.. And worst, they complain too much!

Just yesterday, on Fox, a woman presenting her book- "What a Lucky Dog: How to Understand Men Through Their Dogs" was saying so much crap about keeping men on a leash, and I cannot believe they allow this on tv.

Here's a recent transcript from an interview with CNN

[b]DIAMOND: Absolutely. I think the very important thing, like with dogs and men, is at the beginning train them. All men love to be trained. Just like dogs, they all want to be trained.

KAGAN: Do you crate train them? Do you crate train your men, Wendy?

DIAMOND: Oh, my -- well, not that much. We keep him on a short leash at the beginning. You know, no tricks without treats.

KAGAN: Very good. DIAMOND: And also, you know, it's basically really important that, like, no means no, and you get all of, you know, the boundaries of where you want that relationship to be straight out at the beginning.

KAGAN: At the beginning.

DIAMOND: So, yes...

KAGAN: No bad habits develop. They're harder to break.

DIAMOND: Absolutely. And it's really important, like, that you go through everything with them so that you know, like, at the end of the day this is how the relationship is going to be from now on, and he understands straight out at the beginning that you train him.[/b]

let me preface this by saying that since discovering wsg, this has become one of my favorite threads to follow. the discussions that take place here are great.

paddy, cutting edge, and cash works,

my two cents on the issue of pheromones and wedding bands:

it does seem sometimes that when it rains, it pours. go thru a dry spell and then get one phone number and then they start filling up you pockets till you can't keep them all straight. (almost :-)

immediately after popping a nut, you feel like king of the world. your speech, actions and overall demeanor reflect this both overtly and subtly. females pick up on this like crazy! this tells them two things: 1) that you have no problem getting access to pussy. and 2) that you must be something worth having if other girls want you.

chicks are very much into group think. they always like to get together, share opinions and form consensus. so if one girl gives you passing marks, then they all buy into the idea that you're a hot property.

same thing for the wedding band. on one hand, yes it indicates a possible no strings attached fling. but it also signifies that you must be something worth having if another chick already has her claws in you.

and let's not forget this is the fuck-up female mind we're dealing with here. they only want what they cannot have: aka a married man.

imho,
ls

I'm going to say it again but to a brick wall, that American women are the worst value in the world. Visit other countries and you will see a big difference in the female attitude of women outside of the North America. But most guys just believe the crap they see on TV and movies and buy it like a bunch of gullible idiots.

'" it does seem sometimes that when it rains, it pours. . .
immediately after popping a nut, you feel like king of the world. your speech, actions and overall demeanor reflect this both overtly and subtly. females pick up on this like crazy! this tells them two things: 1) that you have no problem getting access to pussy. and 2) that you must be something worth having if other girls want you."

this is very true and has happened to me many times. women love confidence in a man. there is a genetic need to find someone who can provide a stable life for her and any potential family. while this usually manifests inself as "gold digging", someone with little status but an attitude of confidence and the attention of other women can work just as well. there must be something there that attracts the other ladies, or so they think.

years ago, i was involved with co-ed volleyball at the local ymca. i asked several girls for a date and was shot down. i then hooked-up with the most beautiful woman at the gym and was the envy of all the guys. suddenly i was the man. within a couple weeks i was propositioned by both girls who had rejected me as well as 3 different married women - despite the fact that their husbands and kids were at the y too. kind of blew my mind at the time - but now seems rather normal. try getting a good job after being laid off. if a company thinks they are stealing an employee from the competition, you can get some unbelievable offers. but someone without a job - not so attractive. that's life . . .

"A job" isn't a requirement to meet a good looking woman, its more like a very high paying job, a nice car, a nice place with US females. Outside North America " a job " is good enough, it shows your responsible.

Prokofiev,

Very good point, I would go to a club in the states. Walk in by myself and be igonored. Walk in to the same club with a woman friend on my arm and every woman in the club would check me out.

I discovered this behavior is more so with women then men. Men usually don't care if a woman is with another man. But it spikes a woman's interest if a man has a woman with him.

Yep yep! One of the things I've noticed having moved out here to the Midwest from California (believe me, I sure as hell didn't want to make this move, it was for the (currently dead-end) job) is that I don't have to worry about women who try to "out-man" me.

Now I have to worry about women who "want to be taken care of."

You know, it's sad when I look forward to spending my evenings home alone rather than going to my favorite hangouts & dealing with the spontaneous unmitigated bullshit of American Women.

There was one poster I saw the other day that really made me laugh: It's a picture of this totally hot babe, with the following caption beneath:

"Right now, someone somewhere is putting up with her shit."

-- L. :)

Praise the lord in Heaven, that I moved to Sydney.

There is no doubt that American women are spoiled… spoiled by American “morality”. American women provide pussy as a reward to men who put-up with their B.S. And, we (men) allow that to happen. In countries where prostitution is legal and you can get laid for less money than you spend on a date, women are much more attentive and considerate. They tend to enjoy our company more because they realize that other pussy is readily available, at a much cheaper price. Why put-up with a ***** full time, when you can get a better looking GFE for a short time. Like they say, the difference between a girl-friend and a wife is 45 pounds!

I understand that “misery loves company”, but why do American men continue to let “pussy whipped” liberals in congress legislate our morals. We go-out-of-our-way to make America a safer/better place for our children, so in that process let’s also correct our social problems. The divorce rate in America is 50%, primarily because American women do not tend to their husband’s needs. Why should they, when they can file for divorce and receive alimony for the rest of their life. In countries where prostitution is legal and mistresses are accepted, men are not held hostage by that little-hole-with-hair around it.

Look R,

"There was one poster I saw the other day that really made me laugh: It's a picture of this totally hot babe, with the following caption beneath:

"Right now, someone somewhere is putting up with her shit". I saw that same ad on a hustler website, funny shit. That one ad explains American women in one full sentence.

I tired of hearing all this ranting and raving about how bad American women are. I have a daughter who is entering the dating age, and is an American, so I'm going to stick up for her and other American women.

The fact is all women all over the world like to fuck, if they find a man they like/love.(not my daughter lets take her out of here now) They have a perfect right to fuck whoever they want, just like we men enjoy fucking young women with nice big/ small tits, and tight women.( most mongers don't want fat ugly women to have sex with, they just marry them, then look for something on the side.)

If an American women rejects you because you're so ugly, fat, or poor, then too fucking bad. You should get over it, and monger like you been doing all over the world and yes even in the U.S.
( I'm in the same boat as most of you: I feel I'm a little to old to go to clubs to pick up young 20 year old girls to fuck.) You don't see my crying over it, somehow I still get the young 20 year old anyway.

I realize thats its easier to to get a young girl overseas, but do you really think she is falling in love with you, and wants to fuck you because of whats inside your heart? More then likely she is desperate for money and will do anything to get out of the situation she is in.

American women on the other hand are very educated, more women then men in the U.S. are getting advanced degrees and earn a very good income. Can you blame them for wanting a little more then a fling with a Mexican in Cancun earning $50 a week, or for them rejecting losers.

Get over it!!!! or go on a diet and get a better job.






s

Aaah American Women

How I love to hate them, but because I am stuck in the bowels of New Jersey, I can't do much about it.

I travel to the sunny coasts of Turkey often and I swear when I comeback, I am in severe depression, it takes me 6 months to recover. As for the women, buuuh humbug!! Women here are just so incredibly idiotic.

I am a good looking guy, have a house, a great job, disposable income, brand new car, nope, not enough. What angers me is after spending my times with 8s and 9s overseas, coming here and being given the run around by fat ass 6s...it drives me insane. Unfortunately, I have no patience so I just tell them to go fuck themselves.

I have told all my friends here, they have to be idiots to put up with this. Unfortunately, because of their ignorance, they know nothing about the world. I tell my friends that if they want serious babes they should come with me to Bodrum or Cesme in Turkey, and just talk English. They give me stupid answers like Midnight Express. Fuck Midnight Express, America is a Nightmare Express when it comes to women.

What is not common is always in demand I guess. If you live somewhere, you can't really get major pussy. Especially in the metropolitan NY/NJ area, forget about it. It's all money money money.

I am 29 I was a bit worried that I would not be married and stuff like that. But I look at guys at work who are married, first of all they are all cheating (usually with butt ugly providers), or they are divorced or going through a divorce. Marry who, these chicks??

The gentlmen before made a remark like get off your ass, get a job, blah blah. Well it's good, but I know some seriously good looking guys who are very wealthy, who get some serious ass: But you want something long term, meaningful, forget it. Their luck is just as good as us normal guys, even though we are no adonis or david.

My solution is, like Dickhead Said. I am saving my money, partying overseas. To hell with these cunts here. Actually, THANK GOD for the Ignorance. If they knew what we knew, just think how ruined everything would be for the rest of us.

Pokey, I have to admit that I agree with you. I don't find it surprising at all that an attractive woman would prefer a handsome man with a good income. Most guys if given a choice will pick the youngest and prettiest woman they can get and conversely women will pick the best looking and well-heeled guy they can find. This is true wherever in the world you go. If you don't believe me try putting two equally good looking guys side by side. Tell a group of young women that one is a rich man and the other can barely make ends meet and see which one most of the women congregate around. It may seem otherwise because if you go to a country where the average wage is 15 cents an hour -- even the guy working at Burger King looks like a catch. Of course once you get her over here she can see that she can do a lot better and does.

Civ 2000

Pokey & CIV2000, What’s up fellas?

Why have you two become so fired up over the submissions in this thread?

It’s healthy for the men here to express their displeasure of the times when they felt taken advantage of by women (women do it all the time – it’s called girls night out).

Moreover, it is understandable why the men here are upset. Just as people become fed up with the political game, people also become fed up with the dating game, the marriage game, the sex for good behavior game, the divorce game, the alimony game & the child custody game.

Truth is that many men enjoy foreign women, as well as sex workers (foreign & domestic), because they feel that there are no pretenses. You know her situation, she knows what you want, you know what she wants, and you either strike a deal or you don’t. Mongering is straightforward & honest (And unfortunately for most men & women, mongering is the only time men & women are truly honest with each other).

And in case you are wondering, I’m 33 years old, 6’2” tall, 235 muscular pounds, and reasonably attractive. I hold a baccalaureate degree (and will be attending graduate school in 2005 if all goes well), and have a daughter & a son. I only mention this information so you do not get the impression that I’m too old, too fat, too uneducated, or too broke to maintain a traditional relationship with a decent American woman.

So please do not chastise the members for using this tread the way it was intended. After all, it is an opinion thread created for mongers to “vent” about American women.

Besides, I enjoy the posts & think that some of them are right on point.

Inner Demon, nice first report to WSG. I wish to welcome you.
I understand the frustration of some of the Gentleman on this forum, but its getting to be too much and only one-sided against American women. I think women no matter where they are from, can and will take advantage of men, or will be great to men.(Someone has to stick up for American women, but I won't always do it, so please others don't try to make me take the bate.)


A graduate student with a wife and kid, and a habit of picking up hookers? Life is tough, now I could see some American women wanting to take you home for the night, but without that job can you blame them for rejecting you for anything longer term? I could see how a foreign women might also reject you, for other reasons. ( if you work full-time too, well thats great, but now your life is even harder.) Oh ye, watch out for the PHDs' on this forum, we have lots of them.

Good luck, and hope to hear from you again, and where you monger.

Inner Demon, I would like to welcome you to the board as well. I don't feel like I'm getting all fired up over the submissions in this thread, I just find it curious that some guys find it necessary to constantly complain about American women just because they are just as choosey about their sex partners as we men are.

You said that mongering is the only time that most men and women are completely honest with each other. You are joking, right? Most of the SW's I pick up treat me like I'm their best friend. They tell me how big my cock is and how much they love sucking it. They moan and fake orgasm and tell me how much they loved having sex with me. The reality: I pay hard-earned money for them to give me this illusion. Honest? Hardly. And I act like I'm interested in them and their lives, when all I really want is to bust a nut.

And I love foreign women myself and love picking up hookers even though I have been married and frequently have willing sex partners who I don't have to pay for sex. Correction: I do pay, I just don't hand over the money. Dinners, movies, etc etc. I find mongering more honest on that level. I have had foreign girlfriends and I can tell you they are every bit as gold digging as their American counterparts.

So, keep on venting. I will too. These American women are conniving *****'s and frequently drive me crazy too. But I also love American women; especially SW's.

Civ

Interesting posts, gentlemen. Were it not for several issues with American women, I'd have no problem with them at all. My BIGGEST beef with them is that I often hear them say that the ideal man they want to hook up with would be rich, look like Fabio, own several villas and luxury and/or sports cars and run a multinational corporate empire. That's a SLIGHT exaggeration (JUST SLIGHT) but I've actually heard women utter some of this drivel. Another issue is that they whine incessantly when they latch onto a man and he doesn't take shape like the (impressionable) lump of clay she envisioned him to be. They complain to their girlfriends that the guy is an asshole yet she CHOSE HIM AND STAYS WITH HIM! They take it further by complaining to a guy friend who they would lead on to believe that by lending a caring ear he could somehow take this asshole's place. I got burned MANY A TIME and finally learned my lesson. Nowadays, when I hear the shit I just described, I look at it as if they are weeding themselves out FOR ME! I don't have to act like a P.I. and determine if this is a quality woman. Wanting the youngest (allowed by law, of course) best-looking woman on your arm is natural, but for me, it's not a "written in stone MUST-HAVE". I often find that an average-looking to very attractive (several levels below Supermodel) chick who is wonderful inside is LIKE THAT because NOT being of supermodel status forces her to develop intangible attributes that would effectively make her a "queen" without a crown. To put it short and sweet, my own personal standards of beauty are somewhat flexible, because I know that Supermodel Suzie is more than likely a vaporhead who depends solely on her looks and has no compunction about using a guy to get what she wants. She is not as intellectually developed as the Everyday Chick who has more balance with beauty, brains and class. Sure she may not grace the cover of Vanity Fair, but on the other side of the coin, there isn't a marble statue of ME in the Smithsonian museum posing in Olympic glory. If she can accept the fact that she made a mistake in choosing the wrong man (getting back to one of my beefs) and not make it an issue to be aired on a daytime soap opera, and move on and learn from it, BRAVO! Sorry for the long-winded explanation, my brothers, but I just wanted all of you to know EXACTLY where it is I'm coming from and that I don't lay thermonuclear bile at the doorsteps of American women WITHOUT just cause. Are there classy American women out there? They say there's life on planets OTHER THAN Earth, so, it just may be true.

Umm, Sinanju Master, don't lots of guys ideas of ideal women fall into roughly the same category of unlikely? I mean, expecting women with big-titted model looks and porn star sexual abilities and appetites, who are happy to sweep the floors and cook dinners while serving endless beers to the ongoing poker party to fall for basically normal guys with normal looks and jobs isn't exactly heavy on reality either.

Your point about women who complain about the men they chose (as well as your methodology on this) is a good one -- and I think it's related to the whole illusion of how they think things "ought" to be. Fabio may have a great look, but there's no guarantee one of his clones won't be someone who slaps women around or comes home drunk every night or whatever. I certainly know lots of women who have gotten involved with total losers simply because of how they look or because they pretend to be big shots because that's what she wanted to hear in order to hop in the sack. That's called reaping what you sow.

'Course, I know plenty of guys who've gone the same route, and I've got just as little sympathy. Dealing with real people means generally not getting absolutely everything you want, no matter what country you're in and what gender you are.

Hey Pokey,

Thank you for the welcome, but I hope I did not mislead you. I am a single man (YEAH).

I can understand why some women would not want to pursue a long-term relationship with an underemployed gentleman; however, a fair number of the posts are from relatively affluent men who still seem to encounter problems with intimate relationships. I do know that domestic violence is present in all households regardless of household income (I would love to know the percent of divorce relative to income/net worth). It just seems to me that money isn’t the magic bullet, but that there is some other underlying issue.

Having said that, understand that I too enjoy hearing all sides of a debate. I wish there were some cool, nonjudgmental women here to present their perspectives on dating.

Look forward to hearing from you again Pokey.


Hey Civ,

Thank you for the welcome & for responding to my post.

OK Civ, you said:

"mongering is the only time that most men and women are completely honest with each other. You are joking, right? Most of the SW's I pick up. They tell me how big my cock is, and fake orgasm, they loved having sex with me. The reality: I pay hard-earned money for them to give me this illusion.

Civ, this scenario doesn’t describe dishonesty. This scenario describes good customer service. Hell, many men pay a premium for this type of behavior.

You then go on to say:

I do pay, I just don't hand over the money. Dinners, movies, etc etc. I find mongering more honest on that level.

This statement confirms my original point:

Many men enjoy foreign women because they feel that there are no pretenses. You know her situation and you either strike a deal or you don’t.

Now, there will be some degree of playacting involved in mongering – this is present in every business transaction. You expect your wife to intimate desire for you, real or imagined. Part of what you pay for is the GFE, and since she’s on the clock, you know where her behavior stems from.

What you do not expect is to feel more comfortable with your XXXXX than with your significant other. Unfortunately, many men are suspicious of their lover’s affections because many times they do not know where her behavior stems from. It’s frustrating when your personal relationship begins to feel like an everlasting business negotiation – never knowing when everyone’s finally off the clock. Hell, if I’m going to feel that way, I may as well hang out with the w~~~~.

But you keep on venting Civ. Everyone is better off when we share ideas, popular or not. I know I do not have all of the answers, so I look forward to reading posts from you & all other members on this board.

*********************************************************
Sinanju Master,

Amen Brother!

Oh, I live & monger in SE Florida. I have posted before in the West Palm Beach thread, but it was anonymous at the time.

ID

Joe Zop, you're right about unrealistic expectations of BOTH SEXES, but you (only slightly) missed my point. FANTASIZING about the ideal mate you described in your most recent post is harmless fun as long as one realizes that it's just THAT-- a fantasy that is not REAL. To clarify what I was trying to impress upon my bretheren here on this board, I'll give you a very specific example. An acquaintance of mine (a Czech chick who could very well be a model) was telling me about her female coworker who was single (I don't know her current status now). The coworker was lamenting the fact that she wasn't part of a couple and I was curious about why she wasn't. The Czech chick then tells me that (as verbatim as I can remember) "Elizabeth is always complaining about being single, but her expectations are way too high. She expects some tall, dark and handsome guy who has to be Italian with great hair to sweep her off her feet". Czeck Chick also mentioned requirements such as the nice car and outstanding job, etc. I'm not gonna begrudge this woman her desire to hook up with Fabio. That's her right. However, she was nowhere NEAR being a looker although she has a great job and can stand alone on her own merit. If she keeps holding out for this unobtainable vision, she'll go the the grave alone and bitter. She's looking for a man that either doesn't exist, or if he does, he's already taken by a Paris Hilton lookalike. She (and a LOT of American women) need to be more flexible in their selection pool. I'm not advocating "settling" for the bottom of the gene pool by ANY means, but they should revise their criteria to achieve the best results. I've learned that Happiness comes in a manner, shape, place and time that is as unanticipated as the roundhouse kick that could have dislocated my jaw. I hope I clarified what I was trying to say, Joe Zop. :-)

Actually, SM, I don't think I missed your point -- my post was more a comment that the oftentimes unrealistic visions such women have are far too often matched by the equally unrealistic expections of our own gender. There are plenty of rants all through this thread (not recently, I don't believe, however, though there is of course the notorious "fat" discussion earlier) and elsewhere that focus on the physical shortcomings and other of various groups of women based on every bit as surfacy a set of criteria as the ones your Czech friend describes her friend as having. I've had far too many conversations with guys that go, "well, she's perfect but her tits are too small" or "I can't stay with her -- I only want a woman who's under XX age, 'cause after 30 her tits start to sag" (seen yer feet lately, bud?) or "she does everything I want in bed, but that means she's basically a **** at heart, so I can't stay with that" and so on. (Excuse me, but please pass that latter girl's number on, pal!) I agree completely that many American women have ridiculously unrealistic expectations, and my point simply was that so do many American men.

What's no good for the goose is also no good for the gander, and both sexes are too often stewing in their own juices.

Hello mongers,

I noticed a mistake in my last post. There is a line that reads:

You expect your wife to intimate desire for you, real or imagined.

This line should read as folows: You expect your wh~~~ to intimate desire for you, real or imagined.

That makes much more sense, and it expresses the point I was trying to make. I apologize for any confusion.

I guess that's what I get for posting at 2:00AM.

-I. D.

Sianju,

These women you mention wanting somebody who runs a "multinational empire" are bound to be unhappy if they get one. Unless, of course, they really don't care about the guy and are only into him for his money. Over the last twenty years or so, I've dealt with a number of high level exectutives in multinational corporations (no CEO's, but a few Presidents and a lot of Vice Presidents). They were all from one industry, so may not be a good portrayal of the entire corporate spectrum, but I would have to characterize 90% of these guys as sociopathic, low-life scumbags - with very large bank accounts. If that's what these women you mention are after, then more power to them - their prospective mates certainly won't care. The other 10% are sociopathic bible thumper hypocrites who screw people over all week long, but reckon it's ok since they go to church for an hour every Sunday to have their souls cleansed.

CBGB,

Last week you mentioned that Australian women never ask you probitive questions about your financial/educational background. It's possible that they figure that since you managed to make the move to Oz on your own, these questions have already been answered. When I was living in Brasil, I used to meet up with women from all levels of society - those living in flavellas to ones from high society (old money or well positioned families). The expectations were different based pretty much on the women's educational background, but the original assessment (that pertaining to financial assets) was very similar - women from the flavellas wanted to marry any non-Brasillian man and move back to his country and "live the good life" because they just knew that all foreigners in Brasil had to be rich, "after all, they managed to buy a ticket to Brasil & were generally not sleeping on the beach, so they must be rich, right?" On the other end of the spectrum, the well educated, high society types were a bit more pickey about foreigners since they understood that wealth is a relative thing - a middle class North American or European can live quite well in Brasil as long as he keeps getting a paycheck in USD or Euro's or Sterling, but these women were still interested in non-Brasillians because they were different from all the other guys they had known for their entire life and they also viewed foreigners as being potential mates due to a perceived reasonable financial stability - "they managed to pay for a trip to Brasil and they're not sleeping on the beach, so they must have some money, right?"

And CBGB, you say you own a large 4 bedroom house in Oz. What sort of message does that send to they local girls? I reckon their initial probitive questions have, in their minds, already been answered.

The fact is, women are women and somebody has already mentioned this, women are genetically hardwired to go after men who they perceive to be a good provider. I think the reason that American women are such a pain in the ass may be due to the fact that in America, women are expected to be able to work & provide for themselves which is in contrast with their genetic programming which is telling them that men must provide for them.

CW

Cash Works a picture says a thousand words:

[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/950000/images/_950958_aussiefans300.jpg[/url]

[url]http://www.azra.akin.bz.tc/azra_dosyalar/0015.jpg[/url]

[url]http://www.saigonnet.vn/vanhoa/chuyende2003/missuniverse2003/03052403/images/Miss%20Australia%20%20Ashlea%20Talbot.jpg[/url]

[url]http://www.research-racing.de/gpx2282.jpg[/url]

I see thousands of women like these every day in the land down under.

CBGB, Just a suggestion, anyone can post websites with pictures of Miss Universe or the Foster Lager girl. Yes, even we in America have gals that pose for beer commercials. How about posting some pictures of real Australian girls or some of the beautiful hookers down there? I know the OZ women are outstanding, but how about something besides a professional model?

Civ2000

CBGB,

I'm not arguing that there are some beautiful women in Australia, but you'll have to admit there are a few dogs as well. I've met a few of both and agree with you that their attitude is much better than their American counterparts - even the dogs were loads of fun when it came to partying.

The point I was trying to make is that if you were an Australian man, the Australian women would probably be quizzing you on your background & financial situation when they first meet you - as a foreigner in their country, you get to bypass the first round of interrogation based on certain assumptions that seem to be universal (doesn't matter what country you're in, foreigners are a curiosity) when local women are sizing up foreign men in their country, they're thinking "It costs a lot of money to get here from there, since he's here, he must have money".

CW

Well good looking and unattractive women are everywhere in every society and culture. The contrast though between beautiful Australian women and beautiful American women is attitude and personality. It doesn't do you much good if woman is good looking but unfriendly and arrogant. This is the major advantage that Australian women have over their US counterparts, its a lot easier to get them in bed because they have a more open attitude and put up fewer barriers. Australia is an excellent example because it is a country that is culturally and economically similar to the US(why do you see so many Australians in Hollywood?), so its interesting to see how different the women are in terms of their attitude.

You do make a fine point about the fact that I am an American and become a curiosity to these women is indeed true. You can thank the local Australian men for this, guys here are notorious for their rather rough attitudes towards women. Chauvinism is very common here and it is not unheard of for a boss to ask a female employee to wear a miniskirt or something to expose her cleavage. A business associate of mine who visited Australia a few years ago noted this. He told me about the fact that there were lots of attractive women and that it was easy for an American male to get laid because these women were tired of dealing with the chauvinism of the local guys. Whether or not they're attractive they're treated quite harshly by local guys. American guys regardless of the the female's behavior treat women treat them with respect. Even if they treat us like shit we suck it up and treat them well. This doesn't happen down under and guys here always take women for granted. In fact, in many countries where there are a lot of beautiful women, sexism is rampant so these places are easy for a gentleman to score. So its our attitude that makes it easy for us to find good quality sex in other countries.

Hi CBGBConnisur,
I read your old posts about European girls.
How you can compare European and Australian women?

Cashworks, here is the bottom line, try driving around any big city in the USA and see if you can pick up this type of hooker, a 20 year old hardbody blonde hair blue eyed Baywatch type, and get two hours of sex with her for $75. You have a better chance of winning the lottery. A couple of days ago I picked up not one 20something Baywatch type hottie but TWO and I paid A$200($150US) for THREE HOURS of HOT WET SEX(BBBJ, DATY, COT, Tongue kissing) They gave me an extra hour for free and I didn't even ask. Most Aussie guys think I got ripped off because they make them stay the whole evening for that much money. Last year when the exchange rates were better, that would have only been a $100.

CBGB

Yeah, monger material here, at least where I'm located is sparse, to say the least and what there is - well, lets just say that I wouldn't fuck it with YOUR dick! I've heard it said that a guy will pay to have sex with a woman he wouldn't be caught dead with in public - well, that must be true in my town - what few pros are out on the street are pretty skanky.

I've heard about the Aussie male/female relations bit. I've actually observed it in a limited way - never been to Oz, but used to work with a few Australians. One incident occurred when everyone was just showing up for work (this was in an office outside the US) - Aussie girl in her mid twenties, enormous rack (I'm certain they're 100% natural) - each tit was nearly as big as your head! Aussie guy (actually a Kiwi, but he lived in Oz most of his life) says to her when she walks in "hey (name deleted), howz yer tits?" she stopped, looked down at them & said "they're both fine", then rolled her eyes, got a cup of coffee & went to work. If that happenned in America or even outside the US, but involving Americans, all hell would have broken out and at least the guy would have lost his job. All said, this guy generally treated women well from what I could see, just had a different sense of humor and the Aussie girl didn't seem to be offended at all.

CW

So a total stranger just pulled up her dress and showed you her butt? Very nice.

CBGB,

Two jokes Australians & Kiwi's (men) tell about themselves may explain why Australian Women are so quick to go with foreigners:

# 1. Welcome to Australia/New Zealand, where men are MEN, and sheep are scared!

# 2. Why do Australian/Kiwi men get married? Sheep can't cook!

CW

Lenin,

Great to see you back. I enjoyed your insights last year on Russian women, etc.
I was just thinking about your comments when CBGB was talking about Australian men and how they treat their women. I remember your point about how American men might think the Russian mens´ behavior is terrible toward their women, but it´s actually the mens´behavior that creates the qualities in the women that many of us like in many foreign women. I think one of your perspectives is that we as American men only have ourselves to blame for the quality of women we´ve allowed to be created.
Do you see the CBGB perspective about Australian women as the same in Russia?

Cash Works, LOL.

I was watching the evening news and they had a blurb on those 5 women suing Hooters for invasion of privacy. One of the girls said, "I feel so violated. I was being watched, especially not knowing it." I feel sorry for them and what the manager did was illegal but these women, all lookers 9-10 on anyone's scale, get looks all the time, whether they know it or not. I know this is a litiginous society but I wonder if a jury would award a large sum of money. More than likely, I think there will be a settlement which, in my mind, shows that these women are really after the money. I think the perv should get some kind of legal punishment for assailing the women's right to privacy but I'm at odds with the way these women act in front of the camera, reading statements dryly acting like they were hurt. I mean, this is a Hooters they were applying for. They are all very well-endowed. They are using their bodies to make money, i.e. tips. I dunno anymore.

Peace

CBGB

I wouldn't normally bother to stop over in this site, because I have very little interest in American women. However I have, and I read your your post of 28 March.

In the great Australian idiom, unfortunately (for those who read and believe you), 90% of what you say is bullshit.

What is true is the curiosity factor, and that some American guys (whether deservedly or not), have a reputation for being "gentlemen". Many also have a reputation for being loudmouths, and xenophobic bullshitters (how's that for a generalisation!).

I would suggest, based on the Americans I have met, that chauvinism and sexism are no more prevelant amongst Oz males than they are amongst our American counterparts. It depends a lot on what socio-economic strata you move in, and whether you are in the main cities, or out in the bush.

It would be a brave employer today who suggested or insisted that his/her female staff wear a short skirt or low cut, cleavage exposing shirt. It is highly likely they would have their ass sued off.

Just trying to add some balance.

jack

In China, nothing is ever as it seems.

Well from what I have seen, my female coworkers in Sydney wear very skimpy clothing but that could be due to the climate more than the boss. Sometimes we don't have air conditioning in our office. And also I have seen a number of male coworkers compliment female employees on their appearance.

Jak, glad to see you again.
I am partially agree about comments that
American men have ourselves to blame for the quality of women
I recently moved to Montreal. I didn’t explore it well yet
but something I notice right away.
I went to striptease bar in Montreal which popular among American tourist
The girls there take off their pants only in the very end of the third dance
They don’t make eyes contact while they dancing
and girls upset when you refuse to give them tip.
I never see such bad behavior in any regular Canadian striptease bar where are no Americans.
Second reason, of course, it is the system itself which humiliate the men here in the North America like nowhere in the world.

Lenin,

It will be good to hear some of your impressions on any differences that may exist with the Quebec women in the future.

I forget how long you said you lived in the U.S., but now that you're removed from here, do you have any ideas or impressions on how an American man can best deal with an American woman -or do you believe it's largely a futile effort in general? I know there are sites like doclove.com that give sage advice on how to deal with American females and be successful - and it generally gives advice that tells men to act like men instead of pussies. Do you think American women generally want men to be less sensitive, more demanding and even domineering - even though the perception is that they would be "offended" and act repulsed?

Sinanju Master,

On 3-24-04 you said "Czeck Chick also mentioned requirements such as the nice car and outstanding job, etc. I'm not gonna begrudge this woman her desire to hook up with Fabio. That's her right. However, she was nowhere NEAR being a looker although she has a great job and can stand alone on her own merit. If she keeps holding out for this unobtainable vision, she'll go the the grave alone and bitter. "

I believe studies have shown that if a girl thinks she's hot stuff, then you as a guy better be hot stuff to approach her. Girls who are genetically superior and got their financial act together are the hardest to bag. You should know that I've heard of situations where these girls are so picky that they DO wind up being old and lonely.

They think they're hot stuff, but their power is brief. At age 30 their chances of landing their ideal mate go down 70-80%. In my experience I find it too difficult to go after the beautiful and educated/intelligent/money girls. If your looks are average, it's much easier to go after the beautiful, poor, uneducated ones.

Jak, I've bought some Doc love info. I think his stuff is primarily aimed at the developed countries where women's financial situations are on the par of men's, such as US, Japan, Germany, UK, etc. In 3rd world countries where most women are poor (Mexico, Argentina, Brazil,...), just have money and show some manners to get pussy.

CBGB, maybe one reason US treats women better, i.e. less chauvinism, is the large number of lawyers here. Something like most of the world's lawyers are in the US, so any type harassment or unruly behavior is immediately punished.

Daddy Lows, I agree with you that these girls are after the bucks. Emotionally hurt? BULLSHIT. These are the kind of girls that probably fuck around and have been on Girls Gone Wild. They probably go skinny dipping on weekends. While I do agree that their privacy should not be invaded, I don't believe their nakedness is worth millions of dollars. You can pay $10 cover to a local strip club to see some pussy.

Rastaman, maybe the Aussie women were so friendly to you because they wanted to see an African American man's big dick?

Hi friends,

I'm from Oregon, USA. We all know that the USA is a challenge picking up model types.
We all enjoy going to Europe, South America, etc. when we have a chance.

I was on business in NYC last week and actually had a great deal of luck with the ladies, and it started to make me wonder about the USA in general. The bottom line is that the USA is a very large country and some cities must be slightly better than others for picking up nonpros--although all USA cities are inferior for chasing skirts compared with just about all international locations.

Unfortunately, I'm stuck in the USA most of the year. But I can relocate to any USA city.

My question is: If you take the 200 largest USA cities, what are the top 5 USA cities where the ladies are the most friendly towards men, and the easiest lay.

By the way, I'm blond, 26.

Thanks, guys

Have fun, and enjoy the game.

Hmm,

I'm not sure about the top 5, but I've had _excellent_ luck in San Diego....but, alas, I'm stuck on the East Coast (Southeast, to be exact). Compared to where I lived in California, it's a huge let-down.

KingArthurad


Dude, your assessment about this chick Elizabeth was right on the money! By now she's accumulated some years into her 30's and I don't see her chances of landing her dream man improving in the slightest.

Regarding your comment: "They think they're hot stuff, but their power is brief. At age 30 their chances of landing their ideal mate go down 70-80%. In my experience I find it too difficult to go after the beautiful and educated/intelligent/money girls. If your looks are average, it's much easier to go after the beautiful, poor, uneducated ones." BULLSEYE, my brother!

Life may not be fair but in this sense, vengeance is sweet: an older GUY with some cash is gonna make out like a relative bandit with the younger opposite sex MORE SO on average than an older woman in the same circumstance. I remember watching the show "Frasier" and he was talking to his coworker Roz about this same situation and he uttered a line that I think is a classic; "I don't make the rules, Roz, I only ENJOY THEM!"

For a man I think, men generally have more time to choose a mate than a female. Men usuall don't lose their looks and appearance that easily. Sometimes thinning hair is a problem or gain in weight but these problems are easily corrected these days with the medical technology available. Look at Hollywood, most of the top actors are in their late 30's to early 40's and many have active careers into their 50's. This doesn't hold up for actresses as most remain in demand only in their 20's and their careers tend to go downhill when they turn 30ish. So even is this day and age of feminism, it is still good to be a guy. Women unlike men tend to find maturity in the opposite sex attractive. I've actually spoken to a number of women in their 20's who want a guy who is well behaved, emotionally mature, and stable and most 20somethings are usually the opposite, basically someone who can take care of them. This is also coming from my own experience as my fiancee is nearly 10 years younger than me.

What do women want in a man, or in general, for that matter? I think the person who has the answer to that question would have to be a true genius.

CBGB, you mentioned baldness - I've met dozens of women who get really turned on by bald guys. I knew a guy in high school who had thinning hair before he was 18. Bumped into him a couple times when I was in college (he was at a different school), by the time he was 20, he was completely bald on the top of his head and he always had at least one good looking girl hanging on his arm.

Back to the college days, my own experience back then was almost always with older women (usually 10-15 years older than myself). The girls my own age were generally interested in older guys for a couple of reasons:

1. the older guys had money, where the young guys generally did not, so they could go to a nice restaurant, night club or take trips with the old guy, not with the young guys who generally didn't have enough money to pay their rent.

2. sex drive - young guys (late teens to mid twenties) are horny all the time & can generally get off 5 or 6 times a night (speaking of my own experience here, don't know about the rest of the guys) - this scares the hell out of most (American) girls the same age, while older men tend to have a bit more control on their sex drive (more in sync with the young ladies). The sex drive of the older women, however seems to increase - they're generally happy to have a partner who's ready & willing to go at it all night, while their younger counter parts want to hurry up and get it over with.

The few girls my own age that I got up with while I was in college seemed to be really up tight, needed a hell of a lot more foreplay than their elder counterparts & only interested in allowing me to get my rocks off once - if I was really lucky, they would allow me a second round.

American society frowns on all of this, of course. It's scandalous for an older woman to date a younger man. While it used to be common (even encouraged) for older men to date younger women (and be socially acceptable), this has been increasingly frowned upon for the last 20 years or so. What ever happenned to "if it feels good, do it"?

CW

I think every guy here in Us should vow NOt to date or even flirt with fat chicks. I think we are too nice to fat chicks in this country. Be rude to fat chicks, you are doing a favor to your bros here!

In the US, we men deserve the women we get. Most women in my company are too fat, assexual slobs and have no sense of how to dress. I am often shocked these women are married to guys who pretty much are also fat slobs. It is enough to make me want to live in Europe.

Bakuram,

I here you man, I wish is was that easy here in the USA. The problem is you go out and every girl is semi-fat, or obese in the bars. That puts us guys in a tough situation--if you want a little action. Suddenly your being nice to semi-fat girls. My strategy is to have five or six beers, then kick the semi-fat blimp out of my room at 4:00am before I sober up.

Yeah it is a sad situation here in the USA.

By the way, what USA cities do you guys find most favorable to chasing non-pros. San Diego?

Thanks,

NB

New Bound,

I think all the guys here should lobby so that prostitution becomes legal. The price getting sex will go down. Consequently, we wouldn't have to hook up /flirt/buy drink to fatties. If we can always give those fatties cold shoulder, they will have to go back to the gym to trim those extra.

I think the key is: mongring has to be legal and cheap. But there are a lot of feminist bithched (or dickless guys who support these bitches) who will go against that. The law in this country is extremely discriminative AGAINST men. That is a sad story.

I think NYC might be better to get some free ass. A lot of sigle, and a lot of competition for girls too.

One more think that I must mention: there are a lot of dilusional girls in this country. I have met so many chicks in my life who need to lose at least 5-15 pounds, but think they are too hot for anybody to even approach them. If a really hot (thin) chick has an attitude, I dont like it, but I can see where she is coming from. But attitude from the chicks who has some extra in them is simply UNACCEPTABLE. This is definitly not the case in europe. SAD!

That is why there is a thing called a mail order bride service, many services can allow a client to matchmake with thousands of potential candidates. Some of the services I have seen abroad particularly in Europe and Australia are quite good. I knew an overweight German electrician whose buttcrack constantly showed when he knelt down, his wife is an absolute gorgeous Czech that is playboy quality, he met her through some service in Europe. An American guy with this type of profile would sadly be only masturbating to the Czech woman's image in a porno mag.

I am on the way to file a divorce with my wife. She is too dominate. And I am the one who fed the family. We had agreement with money and the kids. Do you guys know how much will it cost of this easy case?

Thanks for your help,

Pak

Quote by Bakuram:

"I think all the guys here should lobby so that prostitution becomes legal. The price getting sex will go down. Consequently, we wouldn't have to hook up /flirt/buy drink to fatties"

You sort of touched upon my theory as to why most (Western) women are so vehemently anti-prostitution. You see, their vaginas are pretty much a form of currency/leveraging tool for them, and they know it. If it were suddenly possible for a man to "get some" on demand, without the games or without jumping through hoops, then the value of that "vaginal currency" declines; the "leveraging tool" between her legs loses at least some power. In short, pussy for hire pretty much fucks the game up for the (manipulative) non-pros.

In fact, I dare to suggest that legalized activities may cause an eventual wholesale shift in attitudes of the manipulative sex; think about it- if they wanted to keep our attention in such an enviroment, they would have no choice but to abandon their games. Ironically, the prostitute becomes SERIOUS competition for the Western Female swine.

Reminds me of a saying I once heard from a friend: "women act the way they do because they're the ones with all the pussy".

I couldn't agree more.

Smut Villain,

your quote reminds me of a similar saying a guy told me 20 years ago. He said: "Dude, women have HALF the money and ALL the pussy!" It was utterly enlightening and hilarious to hear him say that! "Half" being the minimal amount of money that they TAKE after becoming the warden in the matrimonial prison.

About a couple years ago, I started to see (metaphorically) that women's "currency" is their looks and their "two-lipped" commodity. What they don't see while they recklessly wield their power without thought of consequence, is that their currency is time-based and loses its value as the days pass. When the time comes for them to decide to settle down and finally act civilzed, they find that their currency is nowhere NEAR in demand as it was when they gleefully abused that power like an insane potentate. I then saw it as Karma. Said chick is now bitter because things don't go her way as she has been used to having and blames those (men in general) who she fucked over in the past. American Women, the Universe is circular and those heartless, evil actions which you set forth to satisfy your ego and to make yourself look good in front of your friends has now returned as a Karmic (is that a word?) credit card bill which you MUST PAY.

MEN'S currency (thankfully) is CURRENCY and the perceived attributes that come with it. That currency will ALWAYS outlast a woman's currency and I'll be the FIRST to be thankful for THAT.

Pak, my man, I'm sorry to say that your soon-to-be-ex is gonna do her damnedest to make you grab your ankles! What with dickless politicians and the biased court system, they're gonna AUTOMATICALLY assume that SHE is the more appropriate caregiver and that YOU have BAGS of money to provide for your kids and her soon-to-be (RELATIVELY) extravagant lifestyle subsidized by YOU. You should listen to guys like Dickhead (first time I ever praised him, I believe, and possibly long overdue), CBGB and others I haven't mentioned.

Thanks Sinanju :

After 12 years getting together with my wife. I know my soon-to-be-ex won't make my life miserable. We just don't get along well. And not talk often. We agree to keep the house myself, I will give her an apartment in China. After that $1200USD/month. Which is not difficult for me and they can maintain above average life there(a nany 800RMB/month).

Thanks much for your kind and suggestion.

Pak

GPS = GOLDEN PUSSY SYNDROME.

Smut villain,

Well said. We pretty much have the exact same theory. Seriously, we guys really need to lobby in order to legalize prostitution. If any one starts the movement, I will be happy to pay a handsome amount in its support. Collectively, we can at least make a statement.

Gentlemen,

A couple of comments on the recent discussions.

1. Legalizing prostitution: from a punter point of view, legalization means little, the social stigma remains. I suppose the best reason for legalization is to get these ladies paying taxes and more importantly covered by some kind of social safety net, not to mention putting pimps either out of business, or forced to provide employee benefits. In places where prostitution is legal and/or tolerated openly, prices are not lower, nor higher than anywhere else per se. What somebody pays in Michigan for quickie car BJ would pay for a long luxurious night with a fine young CIS lady in Dubai. The market always rules.

2. The "American woman" syndrome: I have never ceased to be amazed by the huge number of American ladies who are convinced they are just too hot. They base this upon the attention received at the bar/disco or whatever. Now gentlemen, you and I both know that men (in a bar for example) will pay outrageous attention to almost any lady they are convinced they will end up with in bed with. Fact of life. I have chatted with some young co-workers who were waxing poetic about how the men were flocking to them etc. and they were brought up rather short when I tactfully pointed out that said gentlemen were not interested in their stunning personalities or accomplishments. The smart ones realize I am right. Consider gents, what your attitude would be if every time you went into a bar, five or six ladies made serious attempts to chat you up. I mean every time. And we wonder where the arrogance comes from.

Just an opinion.

Cheers,

Sporadic

The other night, I was in a disco in Thailand and there was this semi-fat American chick up on one of the platforms making an obscene spectacle of herself. She was flailing about because she couldn't dance for shit. Yet, you could tell she had this attitude like she thought that her shit was fucking perfume.

Sad thing was that, on the same platform, right next to her were two 95lb hotties with good shapes that were pretty good dancers. You just knew looking at the three, two of them would be fantastic fuck partners and would cost a whole hell of a lot less. Made the spectacle quite pathetic.

My 2 cents' worth:

"Consider gents, what your attitude would be if every time you went into a bar, five or six ladies made serious attempts to chat you up. I mean every time. And we wonder where the arrogance comes from."

Too true, Sporadic, way too true. But my question to you is this: I still wonder why mostly Western women are afflicted with this syndrome. When I was living in Latin America, I _never_ saw this kind of shit going on; only in the States! What's your take on that? (Incidentally, you're right about the legalization's effect on prices; one only needs to head down to Tijuana, Mexico to see the result for himself)

And regarding PurpleNGold's observation: I think maybe this chick was sooo used to being the center of attention, that she didn't realize that she was out of her league (compared to her nearby competition). Not just in looks, either.

Hey Guys!

A little parallel observation regarding my best friend (a chick). I don't mean to bash her 'cos she's cool (she likes to hang out and drink and do guy stuff with me at times) but being an American Woan, she too is of the school of thought: "Guys should flock just to eat my shit!" Now, a retort regarding why she is WAY delusional. From what I gather, she must be decent in bed, BUT, she has an ass that one could literally put a drink on and it wouldn't fall off. It's THAT LARGE. Her youth has fled her (she's still "relatively" young at 40) but what were once huge and probably quite firm tits are now falling victim to Gravity. "Resistance is FUTILE" LOL All this (in addition to an attitude that men are on earth to serve HER) and she STILL thinks she can command the attention that a hot commodity brings!

S.M.,

Dude! That's just WRONG! Does she not realize her "market value" started dropping about 10 years ago? Not to rag on your friend, but I'll bet in her mind she's still under 30.

Sometimes there is a such thing as "too much confidence"- especially when it (apparently) isn't warranted.

I completely believe that market rules. But market rules only if it has a free and efficient environment. While being illegal, the price is not quite dictated by the quality / demand, as long as prostitution goes. Obviously, I am willing to pay a way more to a julia roberts looks like than to a crack h**. The good thing about legalization is: we would know exactly how much we will have to spend to get laid for a given quality of the pro. Going out, buying drinnk, put up with shit of those semi-fat women but I think I am toohot could be expensive. If we can get laid with a thin prosituture legally without any hassle, why will we bother going through all the shit with those semi-fatties? We wont. And exactly then, those semi-fatties will loose their attitude.

Gentlemen:

I've seriously been enlightened with the past several postings, particularly the concept of the kitty as currency. I absolutely 100,000,000% couldn't agree more.

BRILLIANT! :-)

I've had the opportunity to visit other countries (Japan, Thailand, Brazil, Germany, Mexico, China, Singapore (ah well, at least it's a city-state!), etc.). And in every single one of these places, I have never ever, ever, ever, ever, ever come across any woman with the hang-ups that are the birthright of American Women.

I'm going to Germany in the first week of June for a friend's wedding. It's in a teeny-tiny town right on the French border.

Two words: HELLO KITTY!!

-- L.

Another quote by Bakuram:

"If we can get laid with a thin prosituture legally without any hassle, why will we bother going through all the shit with those semi-fatties? We wont. And exactly then, those semi-fatties will loose their attitude."

Dude, that's EXACTLY the point I was making with my "pussy as currency" rant.

You can either wine and dine some pig, buy her some fucking trinket, and MAYBE you'll get some (after some profuse goddess worship); OR shell out a couple of bills to a shapely hooker, and be GUARANTEED to get some. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out which is more cost-effective.

When you think about it in those terms, practically ALL American women are prostitutes to one degree or another; they all expect you to pay in return for putting out.

The only difference is just a matter of how much.

Dudes, I was listening to a radio talk show hosted by Tom Likas (I hope I spelled his last name right!) and some broad called in and said "...in the end, all guys pay for it". That's true; we can either pay for it EVERY DAY by putting up with their shit, and thereby shortening our lives with the misery they cause us OR we can pay for it up front and BOTH parties can agree right then and there what is expected of the other. In the former scenario, HAPLESS GUY gets laid every once every so often while more often than NOT he has to take her shit because he feels said chick is the only "supply" available. In the latter scenario, said SMART GUY gets to "get his" and after he gets it, the chick is gone and he can enjoy the rest of his day WITHOUT putting up with her crap. Smart Guy knows that this broad is NOT special, because as Tom Likas said (and this line was brilliant and funny as Hell) "You are NOT special. Just because you have something between your legs that makes you FEEL like you ARE special, you're NOT. In fact, HALF THE WORLD HAS ONE BETWEEN THEIR LEGS, and if you don't want to give it up, the guy is gonna leave you in a cloud of dust and go to someone who WILL".

Smut Villain et al.

My take on the "only American women are like this" business:

I was married to an American woman many, many years ago. She was not a bad person but was completely caught up in the "men pay attention to me in the bar" bs. My eyes opened after extensive travel and living outside the US for two and half decades.

[b]Old world values[/b]. Simply that. IMHO, in most of the rest of the world men are still treated as titular heads, due certain consideration.

In many countries, a young lover was the successful man´s due, indeed many wives looked at it as a relief from demanding duty. Always with discretion.

My European wife is a very liberalized, full time professional. It would never cross her mind to bust my chops (or balls) in public or private. If there are issues to be discussed, they are discussed. Understand, we have spats, but it is always within the context of a certain respect.
She is aware, deep down, as are most women (excepting American) that a middle aged man can find replacement company much easier than a middle aged woman. Fair? No. Fact of Life? Yes.

If you are looking for 30-something ladies, look no further than Europe. There are many who chose careers or are divorced and every single man their age simply chooses a younger lady to marry.

Again, these are my personal observations, but rest-of-the-world women seem much less delusional than the USA versions.

As for the physical side, again the social status quo permits an OBFM to be acceptable, not so the ladies. Not fair, fact.

Solution: Let every young American man spend at least two years in another country/culture. You would hear the heads popping out of asses like the "shot heard round the world." When I am in the US and a flirting cow tries her act on me, I just chuckle and shake my head. Who the [i]hell[/i] do they think they are? Patent holders on the Vagina?

Cheers,

Sporadic

Sinanju Master,

I would put your comments in context. Are you looking for a wife or sex?

My wife does not make my life miserable, if she did, I would leave her. Nor do I "put up with her shit." Having said that I have no desire to be in a LTR with a walking vagina.
As for sex, that is another story. Apples and Oranges.

Cheers,

Sporadic

Sorry, Sporadic, for not putting it into context. I meant what I said from the point of view of the UN-married. If I ever got married, I'd make DAMN SURE ahead of time that she wouldn't pull a "Sybill" on me by adopting another personality that I knew nothing of. That's why I like to observe people when they're not looking (not putting up their "good face" to the public at large) because it is THEN that they act their true selves.

As for your wife, with whom you seem to be reasonably happy, I salute you for making a choice that seems to have benefitted your life AND not made you grumble and seek escape.

I'm ALWAYS looking for Sex. As far as a Wife goes, that endeavor takes a LOT of investigative work (passive and aggressive) and time to see if it's an act or the real thing. I don't really see me ever getting hitched to an American woman because I would more than likely have a secret bank account unbeknownst to her in order to possess an "escape route" in case her Inner Gold-digger/psycho ***** came out to reside PERMANENTLY. I've seen and heard of TOO MANY American women devoting their lives to wringing a man DRY after things go downhill. A good example is a post I submitted a long time ago. My ex-best bud met his now EX in December 1995, proposed on Valentine's Day 1996 (excuse me while I vomit) and got MARRIED in MAY of 1996! I made a wager with one of his sisters that the marriage wouldn't last 6 months. I got $20 richer for that. Come to find out that my bud WASN'T hubby #2, but hubby #4!!!!! AND..... after they got divorced, she wanted HIM to pay for the removal of her fake tits AND she tried to sue him in order to have HIM pay for debts she incurred BEFORE they were married! Is that fucking GALL OR WHAT?? This is just one example of the horrors of not doing one's homework.

In the area of matrimony, I just require a chick that has a good head on her shoulders, has integrity, is pleasing to the eye, and isn't about playing mind games.

Yes, Sporadic, Apples and Oranges, but I hope that cleared things up.

Sinanju Master,

No need for an apology, indeed if you think one was required, then I must have posted badly. I was putting your comments into [b]my[/b] context.

If anyone out there has a LTR with someone who is 100% sexually compatible (tastes, frequency etc.) [b]and[/b] is an excellent partner, well, I congratulate them.

As for being single, enjoy yourself, and I do not think you are being the least bit paranoid in setting up a fiscal escape net.
Not my problem, thank goodness, but I would certainly be wary nowadays.

Cheers,

Sporadic

About 18 years ago, I was talking to this guy at a bar in the Miami airport & he told me that his marriage was set up like a business. He was an accountant and his wife did something else in the financial services industry (stock broker or something). He had been married for over 20 years & had raised 3 children. He said that when he and the wife got together, they were rather nervous about marriage because all their friends were going through nasty divorces within the first 3 years of their marriages. So, they made a business plan for their marriage (I think they would call it a pre-nuptial agreement now), where they agreed that all income would be divided up in specific ways - they both got an equal percentage, the rest went into a family fund that they used to pay all the bills. The idea was that "since it was inevitable" that they'd get divorced, they would set it up in the beginning to make the distribution easier.

The kids were taken care of by the family fund until they were out of highschool. The kids college funds came from the two of them chipping into an investment account at the tune of $100 per month per kid from the time they were born until their 18th birthday. He said that these funds were fairly hefty by the time the kids turned 18 due to good investment choices. Once the kid turned 18, they were given full access to the account and told that they had to move out of the house by the end of the summer after they graduated from highschool - college was up to them, they were paying 100% of their own way. If they chose to forgoe college and buy a Maseratti instead, it was their choice.

I was rather shocked by the last part, but he said he had one kid who had just graduated & the other two were well on their way. He and the missus were still together and never argued about money, since they had their own accounts which essentially had the same input due to the way they divided things up.

I suppose if they divorced, they would still have to haggle over the common property and the family fund, but their personal accounts would be off limits.

I don't know if his wife was American or not, I never met her, but I assumed that she was. Every time I've thought about getting hitched or ever wound up being with the same woman for more than a couple of nights, this guys story pops into my head - seems like the best way to handle the greedy ******!

CW

I wouldn't neccesarily put all the blame on American women, its also the fault of men and our own environment that ultimately screw us over. I had a friend who is lives in New York and regularly travels to Brazil on vacation to meet women, Brazilian women are arguably some of the most beautiful and stunning women on the planet Earth. Here's the Catch 22, my friend fell in love with this absolutely beautiful and stunning 20 year old from Rio, I mean this woman would give you an automatic hard on, she was no need for Viagra beautiful. I mean anyone who wouldn't get aroused by her mere sight probably doesn't have a dick. He married her and brought her back to New York, she started to soak in the local culture and made friends with the locals, in the course of 3 months her attitude made a 180 degree turnaround from sweetheart to golddigger mercenary(the type of American women most guys here complain about). A few months later, when her Green Card was approved she dumped him like a bad habit and took away half of what he owned in a divorce. To add salt to his wounds, she wound up with a colleague of his in the financial services industry who was a lot more successful than he was. So the moral of the story is, that you might be a Don Juan in Rio, but you'll be a CHUMP in New York, or Los Angeles, or Chicago, or Boston, or Dallas(this list goes on and on).

CBGBConnisur,

Choke off the source of said dilemma (DON'T move back to the US) and more than likely the problem would be solved. I can see your friend's wife as someone coming to another environment and being indoctrinated by the locals. If he lived in Rio, he and she would know that there are LOTS of honeys that can replace her at the drop of a dime. She would then be LESS inclined to adopt her American mannerisms.

Just my take on the situation....

CBGB,

Sad stories like that one are all too common.

I agree with you that it is not the fault of the ladies per se. The slobbering packs of men who fall all over themselves over problematic women are probaly more to blame, along with "American society" than anything else.

As I mentioned in a previous post, it is the old world values thing.
Now, IMHO the only thing more aggressive than a native (all apologies to real native Americans) would be the transplanted foreign girl. She has had an eye opening experience, with a certain pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

This is certainly nothing new, if you want your "sweet, traditional" girl to remain so, do not bring her out of her cultural homeland, move there!

Cheers,

Sporadic

The important lesson to remember is that a foreign woman has the attractive qualities we American men desire because her culture largely created them and maintains them.

My hunch is that the average foreign bride is as likely to do a Jekyl and Hyde turn on a guy (probably a little more gradual) as is an American woman after she marries you.

It's just too risky to get married in America and live here with a woman. The odds are against a guy in our culture - period.

Just to bring another perspective. I lived in Europe for many years and married a European woman. She moved to the States with me. She still cook me ethnic meals from my old country, cleans the house and wash my clothes. She is slim, look after herself and goes jogging everyday. I would have never expected the same treatment from an American woman (I mean white woman).

The original culture and education of the woman play a part. The women in America are less educated in a more general sense even though they may have been to college or university. Also there is no social safety net like in Europe. It makes women more materialistic and marriage give them among other financial safety. I know many couples in Europes who live together and even have kids but are not married.

Just my two cents...

CBGB & Sporadic,

I've also heard WAY TOO MANY "War Stories" like this. It's little wonder why some guys just say "fuck it" and become expatriates in the country of their choice.

I'm seriously thinking of doing the same by moving back to Mexico: I'm already familiar with the culture, and I speak the language (fluently).

It's obvious that there's something in the (American) culture that's turning women into Olympian ball-busting gold diggers, regardless of said woman's cultural/national origin. In the military you see it all the time with Asian spouses (ask any Sailor/Airman about his Fillipino/Korean ex-wife; the stories will all sound the same).

Oh well, nothing like voting with your feet.

Smut,

I agree with you about a problem with the American culture. The example that follows doesn't exactly follow what you mentioned, but I think it stems from the same flaw - our perception that we can become anything we want because we're Americans and we live in the land of the free. So, everybody wants to be rich, unfortunately, few achieve it (wealth is a relative thing & few people who have it feel that they have enough).

One year in the early '80's, from mid summer through mid December, I was working in East Texas. I travelled a lot with my job, but when I was on break from work (usually worked 2-3 weeks on and one week off), I was shacking up with a woman who lived in the projects in this small East Texas town where my company's office was located. She had a job, but it was low paying & she had two kids, so the projects was where she lived. While she was at work, I would usually hang out at her apartment & meet the neighbors - I was something of a couriosity, since I was the only white guy in the neighborhood. Anyway, these folks, weren't wealthy by any standard, but they had a roof over their heads, heating in the winter, AC in the summer, food on the table, most had a car to drive, they all had TV's and Stereos and most had at least a little cash in their pockets - and they were all MISERABLE, because they knew they were "poor in America". They had lost the American Dream, lost their hope of ever becoming what they wanted to become, which, in most cases was "rich".

In the mid '80's I was living and working in Brasil. I'm not going to regale you with tales of life in the flavellas (I avoided those places like the plague, which may or may not be present there), but I will tell you about a little fishing village. This village was near Canoa Quebrada (beach town near Fortaleza). About half a dozen guys that worked on my crew were from this little village & they invited me to visit one time while I was on break from work. I took them up on the offer and spent the weekend with them. They lived in mud huts, had no electricity, no indoor plumbing, I think there were maybe two motorized vehicles in the village (one was a motorcycle), no readily accessible health care, no access to schools, in short, they were living in a very primitive environment. Yet, they were all, for the most part, Happy. Certainly more-so than the folks in the East Texas Projects.

My conclusion is that the Brasillians never had "the American Dream", so they never lost it. They still had hope though. They also had an amazing work ethic, yet they never allowed work to get in the way of having a good time.

CW

Cash, Chorfa1, Jak, Sporadic,

Reading the last few posts, it seems to me that we are all basically saying the same thing. Hell, tonight I'm working on my plan to move out of the U.S. (seriously).

American men just seem to be playing against a stacked deck.

Smut Villain,

just outta curiosity, where do you plan on settling down? The reason I ask is because I also plan on doing the same thing, but I haven't decided on any one country yet, and the choices I DO have in mind are quite varied (location-wise, but not weather-wise). Panama and Costa Rica are a couple of choices, 'cos I used to live in Panama and Costa Rica is right next door. There's also the Philippines, 'cos a good friend of mine has family there (and is considered quite well off in his native country). The Dollar goes quite a ways in all countries mentioned, AND (biggest deal-maker) no American women to poison the minds of the local honeys.

Anybody else have such plans in the making, and if so, what country did you/will you choose?

Sinanju,

There's a bunch of places I'd love to move to (Thailand, Philipines, Australia, et al), but realistically speaking, I think Mexico or anyplace in Central America would be my best bet. I lived in Mexico for a few years, and I'm familiar with the culture (and I speak fluent Spanish). Even living in a border town like Tijuana or Matamoros, there is a noticable difference in the attitudes of the women (as compared to , say, the U.S.)

Plus, it's the easiest place to live as an (effective) expatriate. You can make a salary of (for example) $25,000 working in San Diego, but when you go back home at the end of the day it spends more like $40,000. You can live like a king without going into the poorhouse.

I'd like to move to some of these other places, but there are matters to consider (like, where are you going to work? What about medical care? Drivers' License?). If I could answer each of those questions with ease, then I'd consider the other locales (like Costa Rica, Panama, Thailand, et al)

Have you considered El Paso TX. After my lease and work assignment are up in Phoenix, I plan to move there. It is composed of 80% Hispanic, so Spanish is pretty much heard all over the place. Plus, I have noticed that the American women of all ethnic groups there, due to the Hispanic culture, are easier to deal with than the mostly Midwestern-raised women here in Arizona.

Also, since I work in healthcare, finding a job is very easy. The pay is comparative to the one I am making in Phoenix, so I won't be losing anything in terms of salary. In fact, I will be earining more since the cost of living in El Paso is one of the cheapest in the US. In addition, it has the same weather as Phoenix, so I won't have to deal with the rain and snow that I abhorred while going to college in the Northeast US.

In addition, Juarez is just a walk/drive across the bridges. It is the 4th largest city in Mexico, so there are things to do there that are similar to stuff we have in the US, such as Wal-Mart, KFC, Wendy's, etc. Plus, I am already familiar with the area, so there won't be any culture shock for me.

Sun Devil,

El Paso, huh? I guess it makes sense. The Southwest is the only place I know of where you can become an expatriate without moving out of the country (LOL). You ever think of living in Juarez (and commuting to El Paso for work)? I did it all the time in Tijuana, and I was able to take advantage of the MUCH LOWER cost of living in Mexico (why more Americans in San Diego didn't try it, I'll never know).

Maybe the same would work in Juarez?

I would consider moving into Juarez. I need to know the legal ramification before doing so, however. Perhaps I'll live in El Paso for about 6 months and move to Juarez or stay in El Paso altogether, although El Paso is way boring compared to Juarez, which has an open city market, dance clubs, bullring, and street activities. It seems that the people in Mexico tend to interact among each other outside the home more than in the US, especially in Phoenix where, due to the heat, people tend to stay indoors more often.

I do know that a lot of Mexicans, who had the abillity to get the required paperwork done, living in Juarez do work in El Paso, so I know that it can be done. That is one metro area that has blurred the concept of an international boundary between the US and Mexico.

Don't know the reason why more Californians don't move to Tijuana and work in San Diego. I used to fly from Phoenix to San Diego's airport, ride the commuter bus and train to San Ysidro, cross the border and fly from Tijuana's airport when I had a Mexican girlfriend living in Durango, Mexico, since it was cheaper for me to do it that way. Perhaps they are not fluent in Spanish or just scared shitless with regards to any dealings with the Mexican population.

More Americans don't do it because, moving to TJ and commuting to SD every day would be a nightmare. There are frequently 1.5 to 2 hour border crossings, not to mention the traffic getting from south San Diego up into north San Diego, Escondido, etc. The COL savings is just not worth the 4 to 5 hours a day that would be lost to commutting.

Oh, and, there's always the, TJ is a cesspool (only good for mongering) argument as well :)

PurpleNGold,

You points are well-taken, and I can vouch for their validity (everything you've said is something I've run into down there at one time or another).

BUT...

1) The border crossing isn't that bad if you know how/when/where to do it. When driving, I always used the Otay Mesa Crossing, which is near the San Ysidro gates. That can cut your wait to about half the time. And you can walk across the San Ysidro border faster than most people can drive across; the San Diego trolley system on the other side is a surprisingly effective means of transportation to/from work.

2) Yes, indeed, Tijuana definitely has a world-class reputation for being a cesspool of iniquity (and I do mean WORLD-CLASS). But you'll find that the smut only extends as far as downtown - you know, where the tourists (aka easy marks) like to hang out. But if you move as little as 3 blocks from that border area you'd find that the "TJ" becomes a completely different city: people are nicer, the cops are less corrupt, and the town isn't as dirty. And I've seen more babes there than you can shake a stick at. You shouldn't even have to pay for it outside of "Zona Norte" (downtown) as these girls are MUCH easier to deal with.

As with a lot of foreign locales, you'll find that there's more than meets the eye if you dig a little deeper. But maybe I don't want the rest of the world to know that; this other side of Tijuana was a well-kept secret among my fellow expatriates down there. If it became more "Americanized" it would just ruin everything anyway (more local women for us!).

Smut Villain,

Too Late! A-hahahahaha! I had never even CONSIDERED Mexico (TJ or Juarez), but the two of you brought to light some very valid (and alluring) points that I never thought of. I should take Spanish again and make plans. If you're in a bar South of the Border and you see a black guy whose shaven head resembles the helmet of the Juggernaut (for you X-Men fans) kicking back with a cerveza and a chica, raise your bottle in a silent toast!

Smut Villain,

I've never bothered visiting TJ anywhere but the zona and the college bars, so I'll take your word for the southern part (and maybe spend a month of vacation there to take advantage of any freebies to be had).

Still, I can't imagine having to commute from there. Even half of a 2 hour border crossing is horrible, and the trolley was never meant as a serious commuter alternative: just a tourist vehicle. Seems to me like it amounts to moving to some shithole like Temecula (condolences to those who have to live there). You'd save a little bit of money, but you'd waste a disproportionate amount of time getting back to real life.

Now, if I could get a remote job, moving to Mexico would be great.

Question, if you live in TJ and commute into the states each day, do you still get your Fed tax returned at the end of the year (assuming you meet the 35 day limit)?

The answer to the tax question is NO. You have to be out of the country ALL DAY for 330 out of 365 days (even time spent over international waters does not count). Sorry about that.

However, those who are fluent in Spanish and thinking about expatriating should consider other Spanish speaking countries. México is no longer all that cheap and even though I love the country, and even though the most beautiful Méxicanas are among the most beautiful women in the world, the [b]average[/b] Méjicana cannot compare to the average Tica, Colombiana, or Argentina. Also they tend to get fat.

Richard Head, CPA

Dickhead's right about the tax exemption. The 330 day option is called something like "personal presence". I worked out of the USA for 18 years, but only managed to get two years tax free due to meetings or courses that I had to attend inside the US.

If I had actually been a resident of some other country, I probably would have been able to avoid US taxes altogether. Foreign residency allows for a more generous time allotment within the US. The problem with this though, is that it is very difficult for a single man to prove foreign residence to the IRS. Just paying rent on an apartment isn't sufficient. By the IRS rules, you basically have to be married with children who live in the country you are claiming as your residence. They are essentially your "tax hostages".

The Tax exemption has a limit $60K or $80K (this may have changed. 20 years ago I think it was $80K, then it went to $60K, then I think it went back to $80K). Anything above the limit is taxed. I never had to worry about going over the limit, so I never paid too much attention to it.

VERY IMPORTANT: Even if you qualify for the "personal presence" exemption by being outside the country for 330 days, YOU MUST FILE your tax return. I know half a dozen people who got burned a few years ago because they thought that being exempt meant they didn't have to file. The IRS caught one guy based on a tip from the taxing authority in his country of residence, then came after all the expats working for his company. In short, if you don't file and the IRS catches you, you lose your tax exempt status and have to pay penalties, interest as well as the tax (even though you qualified as exempt). Statute of limitation is 7 years I think, because everyone I talked to that got busted had to pay up to 7 years worth of taxes, penalties and interest (in some cases, enough to buy a house), even though some of these guys hadn't filed in 15 or 20 years.

CW

It's called physical presence, not personal presence, and the maximum exclusion is indeed $80k. A few other things to know if you are thinking about doing this: The 330 days do not have to be in the same calendar year and you can chose the 330 day period that minimizes your tax liability (because the exemption is pro-rated). "Foreign earned income" means the work was performed out of the country, so it doesn't matter if it is a US employer or a foreign employer. Self-employment income does qualify (although you'd usually be violating the host country's immigration laws if you had self-employment without establishing residency). However, if you work for the US government, that does NOT qualify as foreign earned income for whatever reason. Investment income or other unearned income such as gambling winnings cannot be excluded. Also you don't have to be working the whole time you are out of the country.

As an example, I left the US on Jan 7. That day doesn't count as one of my 330 days. I landed in Europe on Jan. 8 after an overnight flight, so that day doesn't count either since I was over international airspace at midnight. So my 330 days starts Jan. 9, the first day I was considered to be out of the country the entire day. I will only be working until the end of May and will start working again in mid-August. All the work will be performed in one or more foreign countries. So, I'd need to stay out of the country until the 339th day, meaning I couldn't leave to fly back to the states until Dec. 5th.

But, I'll be in the US for 5 days in May and it's another overnight flight to leave the country so that costs me 6 days (it's not an overnight flight going back to the US but I am counting the day of flight as one of the 5 days I'll be in the US for at least part of the day, as is required). Therefore, I can't leave to fly back to the states until Dec. 11th. However, since I will be working through the end of December, the part of my salary that covers Dec. 11th through December 31st can't be excluded since the work would be performed in the US.

This topic is covered in IRS Publication 555.

"Seems to me like it amounts to moving to some shithole like Temecula (condolences to those who have to live there)."

Damn, dude, that's pretty cold (ROFLMAO). BTW, You're right
about the trolley being mostly a tourist vehicle, but it seems
to work pretty well as a way into town, at least for me it did!


"...the average Méjicana cannot compare to the average Tica, Colombiana, or Argentina. "

D.H., If I could get down that way (and still enjoy my U.S.
paycheck), I'd do it, believe me!
All I would need is an overseas position with a company.
You know of any openings :D ?



"If you're in a bar South of the Border and you see a black guy whose shaven head resembles the helmet of the Juggernaut (for you X-Men fans) kicking back with a cerveza and a chica, raise your bottle in a silent toast!"

S.M., how about I just buy you a beer instead :) ?

"D.H., If I could get down that way (and still enjoy my U.S.
paycheck), I'd do it, believe me!"

Well, as of August 16th I will be working for a US company, doing my job over the internet from Buenos Aires or wherever else I happen to be mongering, and getting paid in US dollars, so it can be done. Unfortunately the job will require me to work at least 10 hours a week, 6 months out of the year to earn enough to live on so I don't imagine I'll be able to monger more than two or three times a day or so. Sure am going to miss those American women, though. Or not.

That's the big catch 22, if you meet a beauty abroad who is an absolute princess, she might become someone else the moment you bring her back to States. Especially considering the rabid feminist culture of North America, the chances of this happening are very high. So pretty much whatever magic that happened abroad stays there. Though guys in other Western countries have it better, I knew this 60 year old German plumber and he had a 25 year old gorgeous Czech wife, if she divorces him she loses her residence permit, so she can't pull a fast one on him and ditch him. In the US, a green card can't be voided upon a divorce, so that is why so many mail order brides ditch their husbands as soon as their green card is ready, they also tend to take a good chunk of their husband's incomes away in divorce court. Australia has a Eros visa system, where a guy can have a girfriend kicked out of the country if their relationship lapses.

"That's the big catch 22, if you meet a beauty abroad who is an absolute princess, she might become someone else the moment you bring her back to States. "

CBGB, that's the EXACT reason I want to become an expatriate (again)! Like I said before, there's something in the American culture that causes these women to turn on you, regardless of where they came from.

In the U.S., the game is pretty much rigged: even if you win, you lose!

Note that CBGB's German plumber is screwed as of Saturday when the Czech Republic becomes one of 10 new countries to join the European Union. Bummer.

Actually there is a restriction on citizens of new EU member states with regards to residency and work permits. It's going to be several years before citizens of the new EU states can live and work in other EU states like Germany and the UK. Germany's rules are quite strict even people from other big European countries like France and Italy can only live and work up to 5 years in Germany unless they get married. So this guy still has some leverage, so even when Czechs become EU nationals, she still can't dump him and stay in Germany.

I think you'll find the restrictions only apply to working. They may have to leave the country every few months but then they can come right back in if they are EU nationals.

CBGB, Dickhead:

After reading your last few posts, it strikes me as very ironic how most people in this forum and on this site probably take marriage more seriously than the average "Joe". Using myself as an example, I know I wouldn't dive headfirst into something like that considering the implications if Mrs. Right turns out to be Mrs. Wrong (and how holy matrimony tends to crimp our lifestyles).

But just because I take it more seriously doesn't mean I want to do it that much more; in fact , the opposite is true (for me, anyway). I have absolutely no desire to set myself up for custody battles/alimony payments/character assasinations/unrealistic expectations and other things that come with failed marriages.

But then, maybe the uneven playing field in the U.S. just made me more cynical ;)

Marriage is an institution, but do you really want to spend the rest of your life in an institution?

Now in Bolivia, they have trial marriage. It lasts a year. If the guy is not satisfied with his "wife," he can kick her out, even if there is a kid involved. If he is satisfied, then there is a second ceremony where everyone throws rocks at them. Really. I guess they figure if you can live through the rocks you can live through the trials and tribulations of marriage.

Of course, the woman doesn't have the same right, but then again the male-female ratio in Bolivia is all screwed up (too few men) so the men are in the driver's seat.

Oh, wait a minute. The men are in the driver's seat in [b]all[/b] Latin American countries. 25 days and counting until I am out of England and back in Argentina.

In industrialized countries where women have full equality, marriage is a pointless anachronism. That is my opinion.

Can one attract american women with money (and bad looks)? Do they generally do anal and bbbjtcws? or are they bitchy and arrogant in bed as well?

HK Man,

The only way I can accurately answer your question is in two parts.

1. "Can one attract american women with money (and bad
looks)?"

Dude, if you have to ask that question then you have NO IDEA of how materialistic and selfish American women can be. You could look like the Elephant Man, but if you are a millionaire you'll still get laid. I'm not kidding.

2. "Do they generally do anal and bbbjtcws? or are they bitchy
and arrogant in bed as well?"

Few of these women will go the extra mile in bed unless they're hookers. For example, they'll insist on you giving them head, but if you have the audacity to ask for reciprocal treatment they'll get bent out of shape. I'm not kidding about that, either. It's almost as if they're doing you a favor by just being there.

I don't know why you asked, but take it from someone on the front lines (Southeastern U.S.); a lot of these women aren't worth your time, mate. Things are a little better in major metropolitan areas (NYC, Los Angeles, et al), but not by a whole lot.

Smut Villian,

I know USA women are bitchy and very materialistic, especially when compared with Latin America, Australia, Thailand, etc.

I've been all over the USA however, and the SE USA is by far the best place in be in the USA at least in regards to chasing skirts. Cities like Atlanta, New Orleans, Birmingham, are a million times easier hooking up with a goodlooking nonpro, then say Boston, Seattle, Chicago, Phoenix.

The good thing about the SE USA, is the sex ratio is in your favor, and you do run into some good simple country girls, moving to the big city.

I'm living, working, in Portland, OR right now--have not got laid in a month. I would die to go back to Atlanta right now. Consider yourself lucky in be living in the SE USA.

Of course the SE USA is miserable for hooking up with nonpros when you compare it to Argentina. Everything is relative.

Marriage is a religious rite. Why is it also a legal institution? Isn't there supposed to be a constitutional separation of Church and State in the USA?

The fact is, if you wind up in a situation where you're living with a woman for an extended period of time, regardless of your marital status and you split up, then the woman winds up with pretty much everything - palimony, alimony - not much difference in my book, you're still paying for something you're no longer getting.

Marriage merely makes some things more convenient (during the time that you're married) - insurance and other benefits you may get from your employer, Legal issues where children are involved, inheritance, etc.

Over the last few months, there was a lot of news about legislation for "civil unions". During this time, I saw a report on what they're doing in France. I don't remember what they called it (pact or pax or something like that) - a legal partnership between the two individuals that sounded like a combination of a marriage and a business partnership. All the legal rights of a married couple (but no churches involved), but set up like a business so if the couple splits, it can be done in less than a week and then they're finished. Apparently more people are going this route than the marriage route in France.

CW

[quote][i]Originally posted by Smut Villain[/i]
You could look like the Elephant Man, but if you are a millionaire you'll still get laid.
[/quote]

You're not kidding, but you're not being complete either. That sentence should read:

You could look like the Elephant Man, but if you are a millionaire you'll still get laid [i]by the most beautiful American women[/i].

New Bound,

I guess you do have a point about the major cities in the southeast U.S., but I've had tremendous success in San Diego, Los Angeles, and San Antonio.

Besides, I live in a mid-sized town (population about 125,000+). Most of the good stuff either got married or moved out of town, and what women are left have turned out to be borderline arrogant and materialistic (being damn near the only game in town) :(

Maybe I'm whining because Mexico and the West Coast (U.S.) have spoiled me rotten, but I've seen evidence that it doesn't HAVE to be this way.

CBGB,

When I said I was working toward being an expatriate I thought I had knew which country I wanted. You're not making this any easier with reports like that :).

Maybe we should establish a "Wannabe Expat Support" thread in which current expats could provide us wannabe's with tips on how to find work in various countries other than the United States of Dictator Bush

P & G, Smut V,

[quote]You could look like the Elephant Man, but if you are a millionaire you'll still get laid by the most beautiful American women.[/quote]

Every heard the old saw, "A handsome, poor man is a handsome man, but an ugly, rich man is a rich man."

Riding up front on international flights you can get a look at what the "other half" pokes, usually [i]very[/i] impressive.

It is not just American women with this particular weakness, money and power attract. The fact is that you can really impress a third worlder with a 80k salary, try it in NY sometime.

Cheers,

Sporadic

Quote by Cash Works:

"... All the legal rights of a married couple (but no churches involved), but set up like a business so if the couple splits, it can be done in less than a week and then they're finished. Apparently more people are going this route than the marriage route in France."

I wonder how many women would bother getting married in the USA if we went that route? Imagine all the gold-diggers knowing they wouldn't be able to cash in?

Anna Nicole Smith probably wouldn't have married that rich old fart (LOL).

BTW, I kinda like PurpleNGolds' idea of a wannabe expat forum. Who knows, it could start a trend?

You can really impress women in Latin America without even telling them your salary, and it damn sure doesn't have to be 80k. Just being able to take a cab and not a bus and eat in a sit-down restaurant will make you "rich." Trust me.

One thing guys, just because its easier to get laid places like Australia, it doesn't neccesarily mean these places are utopia. As long as you can deal with other difficulties, and you think your sex life is of paramount importance, then moving to some more sexually liberated country makes more sense.

Dickhead,

I appreciate what you are saying, it all depends on the economic context.

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is King.

It is not just other countries, but other neighborhoods; to a trailer queen 35k is well-to-do.

Cheers,

Sporadic

CBGB,

I agree with you 100%, but my decision to become an expatriate isn't really fueled by my libido (okay, maybe a little :) ). You see, one day I'd like to settle down with a nice little "chica" (or a "Shiela", as the case may be), but when it comes to dating, men in the U.S. are playing a game that's basically been rigged. It's a little less daunting to find Mrs. Right when you're not being made to jump through hoops or kiss ass with droll "goddess worship"; on the average, dating/marriage in the U.S. is pretty much a high-risk/low yield investment.

As far as my sex life is concerned: I imagine one day I'll probably be too old to chase skirts (I can't believe I said that!), but I'd like to still have a life partner who won't suck the life out of me (except in bed ;) ).

Until then, I guess I'm guilty of wanting to take the path of least resistance.

Smut,

I have to disagree slightly. I'm pretty sure that Anna Nicole Smith was counting on the old fart keeling over so she could inherit all his money - that way, she gets it all instead of just a portion of it. I don't think she counted on his kids contesting the will though.

Also, I have to say that the women don't always get everything in a divorce. I have a non-mongering friend who's wife apparently got fed up with him and the town they lived in. She filed for divorce stating that he had been fooling around on the side. She was unable to prove it, probably because he wasn't doing anything, and she wound up getting nothing in the divorce settlement. He kept both of their houses, the bank accounts and investments. She took custody of one of their kids (the other was college age), so he pays child support, not because the courts tell him to, but because it's his kid and he wants his kid to take care of him.

This may only be true in North Carolina, but I remember 20 odd years ago, when I was in college, I had a neighbor who lost just about everything in a divorce settlement (he was middle aged and living in a roach infested apartment complex that was mostly populated by students). Anyway, he was broke all the time because of Alimony payments, then one day he asked me to help him move some stuff out of his ex-wifes house - seems there was a legislation change that allowed him to no longer pay alimony - they had no kids so he wasn't paying her anything at that point, she didn't have a job and couldn't afford the mortgage on their old house so she sold him some of the furniture (family heirloom stuff that he inherited, but she wound up with after the divorce) and was selling the house. I've mentioned this to some other people around here, but don't know what the deal is - some say you still have to pay alimony in NC, others say you don't. I suppose it may be a case by case basis.

CW

*************
Quote by Cash Works:

"... I'm pretty sure that Anna Nicole Smith was counting on the old fart keeling over so she could inherit all his money ..."

**************

Okay, I stand corrected. But I'm sure you saw where I was going with my logic. Besides, this particular example just illustrates how Western women can sometimes be. I know it's natural for a female to gravitate toward a mate who proves himself to be a good provider (it's a biological impulse, after all, so you can't really fault them for it), but IMHO this is not the same as being a golddigger: a golddigger (to me) isn't necessarily looking for a "provider" - she's just looking to hit the "jackpot" by scheming on someone else's fortune. After she's attained her goal she has no use for the dude and divorces/kills/wait for the guy to pass away.

I'm getting a clear picture here about American Women and all others. They are not that much different after all according to the some post I read here. If a man makes 80K a year in NY city, he would be considered not worthy of being fucked by a American women living there, because he doesn't have any money.

If the same Gentleman took his 80K to a 3rd world country, he would be considered rich, and those money grubbing women would be begging to suck his dick, because he would be considered rich: and they would ignore the poor sap making $10 to $50 dollars a day.

Now how are the women any different except for lower standards in regards to money.

Goddam American women! Did you see them laughing at the IRAQ prisoners of war dicks' in the newpaper or internet?

I'm moving to Australia where the women there won't laugh at my dick. How shameful!

Pokey,

I would take issue with the "American Women" generalization and the atrocities commited on Iraqi prisoners of war.

War crimes have nothing to do with cultural money-grubbing. Persons in authority who abuse that position, by humiliating people under their charge are disgusting criminals, and should be dealt with as such.
Atrocities in wartime (or even psuedo-wartime) happen. Panning these off on a particular "flavor" or nationality is not helpful, IMHO.

Cheers,

Sporadic

Anybody See Donald Trump is getting married to his Slovenian model girlfriend? All in the NY papers. Put a 2 million $ rock on her hand. They met at Fashion Week 5 years ago and he flew her to Palm Beach on his private jet on their second date. She says she was broke with no modeling gigs when she "met" him. See the implications of this? I was there too 5 years ago as i work in the area and I don't think I got the time of the day from anybody.

Smut,

I'm pretty sure we're on the same wavelength when it comes to gold diggers.

I was having a conversation this weekend that reminded me of some non-American friends of mine. I seem to recall reading past posts the laud the virtues of Scandinavian women - well, guys, don't hold your breath there. I know two guys who are both Danish and got cleaned out completely by their wives. Both of these guys started working offshore on ships when they were in their early to mid teens (one was 14, the other 15) as apprentice motormen or something like that. They spent the next 40 - 50 years working on ships for 6-8 months per year. Both of these guys married in their late twenties and when they reached retirement age (early 60's) and quit working away from home, their wives (of 30+ years) decided they didn't like having their husbands around all the time so they divorced them and wound up getting most of what they had earned over the preceeding 40 odd years. In short, they both had to go back to work (at 60+ years of age) doing the only thing they knew how to do, maintain ships engines, because they were destitute, thanks to their lovely Scandanavian ex-wives.

So, the gold-digging is definitely not restricted to American women or Americanized women. I would hazard a guess though that most of the posters in this thread of the forum just have more experience with American women than any other variety.

CW

Pokey,

I want to clarify a couple of things you said:

(1) No, not all American women are like this, but a disturbingly high number of them can be! The problem is that sooo many of them are cut from the same manipulative mold.

(2) The foriegn women are mostly an alternative for Western men, IMHO. I do agree that an American salary can be a big draw for them, but that still doesn't explain why they don't play the same head games as do Western women. In fact, they often don't become such manipulators until they spend some time in a place like the U.S. or U.K.

No, the concept of lower income standards seems to be only half the story, at least in my experience.

Mike, of course you're not going to get the time of day from anybody in New York. Women who come to New York usually have one thing on their mind, money. That's why the Donald got the attention of that model. When I was New York, I used to meet a lot of women from Europe and South America, they were all good looking and they were all a bunch of golddiggers. Most of them were blatant about it, this one woman from the Netherlands asked me straight up how much money I make a year and how much I had in the bank a few years back. It was funny because when I spent some time in Amsterdam, I met a lot of local women on the same level of beauty as her and none of them asked me those kinds of questions, and they were nowhere near as materialistic and demanding as she was. The point is that environment can have a lot to do with a woman's behavior and attitude, it also affects a man too. So in essence that is why New York is a lousy place to meet an ideal woman because the city is a very fast paced environment where a lot of money is changing hands. So, essentially you need to have a lot of money to get good dates regardless of your physical appearance and mental disposition. Even if you look like Brad Pitt, without a good source of income, dating in New York is tough.

CBGB,

I was trying to tell Pokey the same thing, but your post said it 1,000,000 times better than I could have!

CBGB,

I Work in Midtown Manhattan and used to be in The Fashion District. Know alot of chicks here that would rather work 16 hour days and turn 30 40 with nobody because no man fits their idea of the perfect guy. Now, to be their ideal man in NYC you gotta be a Yankees player, music industry type, corporate attorney, Bway actor, etc, etc, you know, fling alot of cash so the chick feels like she's the star of a Sex In the City episode. You are talking like a couple of hundred a nite here. They expect this, it is their norm. I know I been there.

I usually keep it real by checking chicks that work in Mcdonalds, the local cafe/deli, Macy's perfume/cologne counter, and the cleaning people in office buildings. Alot of these girls are rite off the plane from Peru, India, China, Guyana, The DR, and Albania. Really nice and sweet too. They appreciate a nice gentlemen and you can really score big in these situations. I like these scenarios since I can be recognized on my own merits and not my duckets. Here in NYC you need game to get by or you're assed out.

Mike12,

I hear ya. Your observations sound like the chick example I gave a few posts ago. What gets me scratching my head is when their "currency" becomes "devalued" and they can no longer even THINK of ensnaring such types. They then become bitter and blame others for their lack of flexibility. You hit the nail on the head regarding whom a monger should target. A plain chick (ATTRACTIVE, mind you, but plain in attitude, meaning that she's not of the type that thinks that her "goonya" is made of gold) who is practical-minded stands to make out MUCH better than these tunnel-visioned gold-digging cunts. I actually had a financial epiphany today. Generally, American women are like a bad investent: the RETURN on investment is inversely proportionate to the investment put into her.

I was listening to the national radio host Tom Leykis and he tells it like it IS regarding American women. In fact, he pretty much labeled them as manipulative b****es who fall far short of their overseas counterparts.

CBGB, So once you got focused and determined, how did you do it? If you don't want to tell us, then just say so. BTW, you'd make a great polititican.

This being a forum on women and how men relate with them, I think this fits in here. I was at the Getty Museum here in LA, California area last weekend and saw lots of POA. That's pieces of art. Heh. They were walking, talking, having fun, and some were bored. After staring at the walls a couple of times (my family was with me), I ditched them and spent the rest of the day looking and evaluating the women there. That's when I saw this painting and it kind of got to me.

Peace

The accompanying information for said picture in last post. BTW, in all fairness, men are as bad as women. We all want what we don't have and if it's within reach, we scramble for it. On the other hand, American women [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140][CodeWord140][/url] me off every day. I think it starts with the whole idea of growing up hoping to meet the "one man" of her dreams and having the cookie-cutter life. You want to blame any one thing, I'd put it squarely on the perceived notion of social status, i.e. how much money (power is interchangeable here) has one got. That and little girls playing with Barbies.

Peace

Sinanju Master,

Good observation about the ROI concept. It's a damn shame it has to be like that alot of times. What irks me is you can't expect to get anywhere with some of these chicks by being yourself and doing the right thing. You have to play the role with a flashy car, be superficial and act like you are cool in an MTV defined kind of way.

I have been pondering what it is in the culture here that causes the women to play games and bug out the way they do. I had chicks that were from El Salvador, Honduras, DR and Asia flake out on me and I thought about what the hell happened there. Then I realized the common thread of them all being here longer than 2, 3 years. I'm just trying to define exactly what in the U.S. turns these girls into gameplaying beyotches at the drop of a dime.

Just some things to think about I guess.

[size=-2][u]EDITOR's NOTE[/u]: [blue]Posting of this report was delayed pending revisions to [u]capitalize the word "I"[/u]. To avoid future delays, please use a capital "I" to refer to yourself in future reports. [i]Thanks![/i][/blue][/size]

I have done two different things in order to be able to expatriate myself. #1, I got a job with an American company working overseas. #2, I got a job I could do over the internet from anywhere in the world. So, I don't have to fuck with any residency issues. Only problem is, I don't like job #1's location and #2 doesn't pay all that much. But #1 says they are going to send me somewhere else pretty soon. If I don't like where they are going to send me, I will then quit and make do with #2.

It's not that hard. Use the "Nike Method"; just do it!

****************************************************
Quote by Cash Works:

"So, the gold-digging is definitely not restricted to American women or Americanized women."

****************************************************

True again, CW; but when I say "American" women, I'm really talking about "Westernized" women in general. Hell, guys in England, for example, see the same problems we do (I know - I've been there). In all fairness, though, I should probably start using the term "Western" in lieu of "American" :).

I feel for those Scandinavian dudes in your example, though. I used to be in the Navy and I've heard - and SEEN- situations like this all the damn time! It makes you wonder why the fuck anyone would get married (in Western societies), knowing from the start that wedlock is a one-sided deal.

Mike12,

Again you hit the nail on the head. I remember when I was much younger, I thought that the greatest thing in the world would be to get married. (OK, guys, I know that comment drew a loud gasp from my brethren, especially those of you who know me as the Great "Ameri-basher" where females are concerned! Heh heh heh... Ameri-basher.... I like that. anyway, I hope that comment doesn't cause any of you to throw custard pies at me Three Stooges-style!) It was after I caught wind of this website and saw that the number of guys who are fed up with the BS of "WESTERNIZED" women are LEGION that I said to myself: "Hey, why would I wanna enter into a situation where I shell out a prince's ransom for a rock that I'll never own, WILLINGLY commit to a situation where I will metephorically SLAVE AWAY for the rest of my life while she would be allowed to sit on her ass (which would probably grow very large from a lack of exercise or meaningful work), be subject to the whims of a one-women pussy cartel, AND agree to give her HALF of all my worldly possessions and wealth, while the courts nod in agreement with a blank-eyed stare"? FUCK NO! If my investigative work determines that said chick has no integrity and wants to dig for gold, she's down the toilet qucker than a fresh stool sample!

(waiting for the barrage of custard pies...)

Sinanju Master, Mike12, Cash Works, et al,

I've been wondering... with immigration, the internet, WTO, and other things going on in the 21st century, the world has gotten a lot smaller. You guys think that makes it easier for Western guys (such as ourselves) to see all the other options out there, and that Western women behave quite differently from their global counterparts? I know I would not have had these feelings of general disillusionment had I not practically traveled halfway around the world (thanks to my previous occupation); those travels showed me (up close and personally) that things with women don't have to be like this. I think every man should visit an "old-world" country at least once in his life, as it is quite the eye-opening experience (at least it was for me).

But enough about me; what do you guys think?

P.S. Sinanju, this isn't the ONLY website where Western men have vented about the lopsided dating scene; if you look further, you'll find that dudes are waking the fuck up all over the place and coming to pretty much the same conclusions.

Sinanju Master,

Would love to get married if I could find the right chick without all the nonsense that goes with it. Tell my married friends they don't know the half about being single. Too many games to play and money to be spent on someone that don't appreciate it. Not to mention you don't know the chicks pedigree. Have seen married men get more play then single guys anyway. Women love married men.

At the convenience store near my house there is a pretty married indian lady I always chat up. New to the country. She likes that we talk about Indian food and her culture. Brings cooked food for me. Asked her if she had any sisters and she said I should go to India to meet Indian girls. Said they all like to make their husbands happy and cook for them. My point being is that I have alot of respect for her and would love to get a real women like her.

By the way, Sinanju is a small seaside village in N. Korea, you must know Chiun then!

cbgb,

had the pleasure of escorting a scores stripper around town the other day. doing a favor for a friend. she is from another city. 22 years old, smokes like a chimney, tried to puff some weed in my car from the airport, feet all up on my dashboard, drinking like a fish. wanted to take stay in $500 a nite hotel suites for 4 nites because that's where britany spears stays at. told her to go to the china club, cbgb's, speed, etc etc. was getting the feeling she thought maybe she was doing me a favor by letting me pick her up and drive her around nyc like a chaperone. nice enough girl, just total turn off with the materialistic attitude and bad habits.

smut,

i'm not entirely sure what your question is. if you're asking if i agree that americans should travel abroad i would have to say "hell yes". i had friends in college who were born and raised here in north carolina and had only been out of the state on one or two occasions. others who were a bit more "worldly" had made it as far as canada, mexico (either a border town for a couple hours or one of the resorts like cancun or cozumel) or if they were extremely well travelled, they had actually made it as far as western europe - once.

years ago, i was at the american consulate in lagos, nigeria to get some extra pages put in my passport. there was a group of highschool girls there for some reason, one was going on about all her travels (this was her second trip out of the us which apparently gave her status over the other tarts, most of whom had never left wherever they were from - great first trip - "welcome to nigeria, what do you have for me?"). when she was catching her breath, another girl asked what i was doing there i tossed my passport to her and said i needed more pages. the status chicks jaw dropped as they looked at all the stamps. if they weren't all ****d and highly chaperoned, i'm pretty sure i could have had my way with the lot.

with all this first hand knowledge of other cultures (actually, lack of knowledge), these people are somehow able to form opinions about the rest of the world and in some cases help make decisions about how our country deals with the rest of the world. it never ceases to amaze me how ignorant my learned neighbors can be.

i firmly believe that americans should get out of north america on a regular basis and actually see the world as it really is, not as it is portrayed by the network news. whether people travel for sex or for general educational purposes doesn't really make a difference. they just need to go and see the world so they can form their own opinions and not have to rely entirely on dan rather or peter jennings.

a brasillian once told me "america is hope, it is how the world might be in the future, europe is educational, it is where we can see the past, the rest of the world is sorrow because it is how it really is in the present". there are some flaws to this statement, but the general idea is that people need to travel, but don't limit yourself to the "tourist destinations".

enough ranting.

cw

Mike12

The Village may be home, and it's a shitbox, but hey, it has 5,000 years of tradition! Little Father can be a pain in the ass, but he's family!

My first foray out of the country was involuntary. I was 11 years old and my old man was in the military and he was stationed in Panama (as in the Canal). I had the culture shock of my life (One English speaking channel that featured shows that were LITERALLY 20 years old, ONE English speaking radio station, and to make a long story short, no "luxuries" WHATSOEVER when comparing to the States). I didn't know it then, but I would later develop a travel bug that was insatiable, along with a curiosity of other cultures. I eventually traveled to England (5 times), Greece (three times), Belgium, Ireland, Mexico (OK it was in Juarez, so a border town doesn't really count, I guess), Spain, Germany (where I was stationed), and as mentioned before, the Republic of Panama. Maybe it was the "exotic" factor as mentioned in a previous post, but in all the years that I've traveled, I've only run into ONE rude woman outside these shores. Compare that to the lack of manners and mercenary attitude that I observe here in the US EVERY DAY, and you get a picture of my desire to flee these shores, only to return on occasion.

Cash works,

Excellent rant. I could not agree more. IMHO 99.999% of Americans are wonderful people but just a bit myopic and totally ignorant about what the rest of the world is like. It is understandable, you never "need" to leave the US for anything, and the sheer size makes for almost every possible climate/landscape combination you could want to see. We need not explore the issue of geography education in the US but it certainly was pitiful 25 years ago.

Travel (any travel) is an education. It will make you appreciate things about your own country and open your eyes a bit as to how others see the world.

The ladies are just icing on the cake.

Cheers,

Sporadic

Cash Works,

Sorry if my question was a bit "serpentine" in its logic, but the point I was trying to make was that (in the modern century), there are ways for men to find out about other cultures and ways of thinking - not to necessarily experience them (you still have to travel for that), but just finding out that alternative cultures (and women) actually exist out there which may not carry such a mercenary attitude toward males.

Other than that, I find that I agree 100% with your post, and I am glad that I had the chance for extensive travel myself.

[blue][Political Commentary deleted by Admin][/blue]

[size=-2][u]EDITOR's NOTE[/u]: [blue]This report was deleted because it contained political commentary in the text[/u]. Please remember that the purpose of this Forum is to provide for the exchange of information between men on the subject of finding women for sex. In the future, please do not post political commentary in the Forum. [i]Thanks![/i][/blue][/size]

Based on the recent commentaries, I think you guys will enjoy the attached cartoon; I got a kick out of it.

Sinanju Master,

It would be a better world to live in if everyone got some sort of exposure to other people and cultures. Too many Americans only go to Las Vegas, DisneyWorld, or the Grand Canyon, and lately you can't blame them with the terror scares and what not. When I lived in Germany my neighbors traveled to China and Africa in one year on two different vacations!

Here in NYC there are many different races and you can learn alot from them. It comes in handy to speak a little Chinese to the girl at the Chinese restaurant, have knowledge of Colombian cuisine to impress the Colombianas, and know that Dakar is the capitol of Senegal. It really goes a long way to impress the chicks if you know a little about their country. When I leave the state it's hard to believe the one-sided attitude people have in regards to other cultures.

Am watching "Single In the Hamptons" now on WE. These 2 sister / fashion designer / model types are going to an industry party and are talking about how it's really important to meet someone famous to date because that is the "key to it all." They want to go to Monaco and Punta Del Este because it is the #1 spot for the jetset. This other show "To Live and Date in New York" features women with a friend who refuses to settle for anything less than a Yankees ballplayer and will die trying to get one. Another chick plays the innocent role who cant find a man, and believe me this one has a sweet face and a J-LO bootie I would eat off of, and then you find out 4 episodes later that she only accepts men with MBA's.

Stay tuned.

Sad state of affairs for guys living in NYC. But I always recommend to young fellas--TRAVEL-TRAVEL TRAVEL-.Just because you must work in an area with women of bad attitude. Does not mean you must except that, once one realizes other women of the world. He will be capable of ignoring the Bul S$%t of these American women.

I must say that women of the Mid-west and South are not as bad as the women from the West and North (calif. & NYC. ). But nothing compares to women of other lands.

Actually you can really make out good here in NYC with the chicks if you have an open mind and a little bit of game. Alot of the American women that are here (longer than 3 years) forget how to be a female after a while. As a guy, why would you want a chick that can't even give you a decent sincere smile? Or that acts like you are the invisible man. I'm not feelin that, so I will move on to a girl that will do that for me. Most of them are from other countries and new to the US. The smile from the Peruvian girl in Mcdonalds is a thing of beauty. The big culo on the Dominicana gets me motivated! Forget about the assistant to the VP of marketing female who goes to London and chicago all the time with a swelled head. My point is that I am trying to wake up dudes that put up with the bs that there are other ways to succeed with the females besides materialism,drugs, money, being fake, and social status.

I don't even deal with New York women nor American women period. All the media hoopla about US women is BULLSHIT, the typical American woman is not Jennifer Aniston and not Cindy Crawford. I have actually seen many everyday Elle McPhersons where I live. Fortunately I am 8000 miles away from New York in a sunny location in the South Pacific. I was at a beach this Sunday and came across this gorgeous 5'10' Australian blonde with a very skimply bikini, you would expect a woman like this to have a boyfriend like Brad Pitt, the dude she was with looked so lame looking, he almost looked like a cross between Gerard Depardiu and Mr. Bean. I have seen regular guys with some cute women here in Oz, bus drivers, waiters, construction workers, even unemployed dudes have girlfriends here.

Mike12,

I feel where you're coming from, and I agree 100% with CBGB. All my friends go crazy over Penelope Cruz, Salma Hayek, Shakira, et al., but where I was living (in Mexico) I would see these on the street damn day! And what was great about it was that an average "Joe" actually had a chance with most of these girls (even if a small chance). Hell, I made out like Don Juan down there!

And, no, you _don't_ have to make $80K a year to do it.

Sporadic,

I'm not entirely sure if American Geography education has improved, though I haven't personally investigated recently. I'm basing this on a guy from East Texas I worked with about 10 years ago - He was being transferred from South America to West Africa. At that time, people working in West Africa were handled by the companies London Office. This guy made a comment that was something like this: "I think this is great! 3 dog night said "I've been to Oklahoma, but I've never been to Spain" (or something like that). Well, I've been to Oklahoma & now, I'll have a chance to go to Spain! Spain's part of England isn't it?"

Smut,

It wasn't a bad question, just touched a nerve I guess. I have a number of neighbors who fancy themselves well educated and very worldly. They watch CNN and MSNBC all day long. Sometimes Fox News or one of the Broadcast networks. They believe everything that comes out of the newscasters mouth with dogmatic obedience (did that make sense? another rant). My problem with this is that, while they may not be bad news sources and while they may portray the news from different perspectives (liberal or conservative) they only portray events with an American skew (and when it comes to prostitution, that generally comes out as "modern day slavery", which, in most cases is simply untrue). Recommendations that they actually travel abroad or tune in to the BBC or something that isn't American is generally met with a resounding "NO (I would insert the "F'ing" word here, but they're too well mannered for that) WAY".

This kind of fits with your comment about all the other ways to find out about other cultures, but I have to say that learning about something third hand can't compare to first hand experience.

What's a (middle aged) boy to do?

CW

Here's a typical american women for you gents! See why we have to go to other countries for our pussy?

Fatasses are poppin up all over the world but there are still plenty of attractive women outside of North America, the best thing is to hurry up and get one because the invasion of the fatasses is becoming a worldwide phenomenon. Still at least outside of the US pay for play is legal and the authorities don't interfere in this so there is some chance of sexual release into the future.

Cash Works,

Yeah, I forgot about how fucking myopic a lot of Americans can be. Imagine that- an entire country of people with their heads up their asses :( !

You're also right about TV not being nearly the same as being there. I'm glad we got the chance to experience other cultures first-hand :).

Smut:[quote]Yeah, I forgot about how fucking myopic a lot of Americans can be[/quote]I would suggest that [i]everyone[/i] is myopic. It is natural to be focused on local issues and problems, they certainly do it in every country I have ever visited.

The big difference, to me, is that there are many Americans who are not even [b]aware[/b] that anything exists outside the borders of ´Murica except in the most abstract, postcard kind of way. Cultural Myopia.

Cheers,

Sporadic

Ps. IMHO, Cranial/rectal inversions are a world-wide affliction, not limited to the lower 48 states.

Sporadic,

Well, yeah, that's kind of what I meant by "myopic" Americans; they have no idea that anything exists outside of our country unless Tom Brokaw, Dan Rather or Wolf Blitzer brings it to their attention.

Even then, they're usually getting only one side of the story.

On the Subject of Myopic Americans

From my observation MTV has a huge influence now on the way people think here in America, especially younger ones. Every female now just wants to have fun a la Brittany Spears, wear goofy hats like Ashton Kutcher, get jiggy like Jay-Z, cop an attitude like Eminem, and just in general make a materialistic ass of themselves. The crowds out in Times Sq by MTV studios are unbelievable . The sheeple mill around on Broadway trying to catch someone famous look outside the window from up high.

There is a hotel in Manhattan where some Japanese or Korean airlines flight crews stay at. To watch 30 lovely Asian chicks in their uniforms get off the bus is a beautiful thing. Anyway, there are some young homeless, hustler, shelter types that hang around the hotel and prey on these girls. All they do is play the rapstar role and these Japanese chicks fall hook lie and sinker for it. All because the image is on MTV nonstop. Some of these dudes just got out of Rikers too and score these broads like this.

Another thing to watch out for lately is this trendy new gay thing among women here. Madonna kissed Brittany so now it's the cool thing for girls to be with girls. When the fad ends they just go back to being straight like Ann Heche and a few other ones who play both sides of the fence. I really don't like the idea of having a girlfriend or wife that may have strapped on a dildo or ate some chocha because MTV portrays it as cool.

I actually live in Australia, and the typical Australian guy drinks a lot of beer(These guys DRINK), hangs out with a rowdy bunch, gets into bar fights and plays rugby. A lot of the local women hate this because it is so commonplace among Australian males. So when an American comes into the picture the Aussie women stick to them like bees on honey. It's incredibly easy to flirt with Australian women, when they hear your North American accent, its gets their attention.

CBGB,

Yeah, I feel you on that one. When I did time in the Navy our ship stopped in Melbourne and Cairnes while on deployment. It seemed like the second we stepped on shore, the panties started dropping!

If I didn't have such a weakness for Latinas, I'd make Ozzie my next stop :)!

I can say that I have been to every corner of the globe and have sampled the women of each corner, and I have to say for an American women to catch my attention she will have to move mountains. There are so many beautiful, gorgeous, sexy, women outside of the US.

****************************************************
Quote by CBGBConnisur:

".... I have to say for an American women to catch my attention she will have to move mountains. There are so many beautiful, gorgeous, sexy, women outside of the US."

****************************************************

Amen to that, brother!

Another way to look at it is that the US is pussy poor. I've never seen an online forum that has extolled the virtues of American women over the rest of the world. Out of the hundreds of posts here I have never found one saying anything positive about the American female. And often on this board, I have found that American women seem to be some kind of measure of a poor experience with women. Anyway the pattern of American men looking outside of the US for women has been around for decades.

One time I got to see a perfect side by side comparison in Amsterdam, when there was group of Dutch women and a group of American female tourists standing side by side at a trolley stop. The difference was like night and day. I've seen the same in Australia where almost all the ugly women of child bearing age turn out to be either an American or British tourist.

CBGB,

I sometimes like to compare the act of "going abroad for a broad" (get it ? :) ) to the current phenomenom of outsourcing jobs. Companies want to increase profits by decreasing overhead, so they look for cheaper labor elsewhere (i.e. Mexico, India, China, et al). American workers cost more because of minimum wage laws, unions, benefits, etc.

American pussy has the same drawbacks, IMHO. They've raised the price of their pussies, so it only makes sense that those of us who know that other lower-cost options (I'm not necessarily talking money when I say "lower cost") exist would want to explore those options. In this case, Western men are getting a lower return for the investment required of them by Westernized women, so "outsourcing" our wallets/dicks/affections only seems like a logical reaction.

As far as our general disillusionment with Western women is concerned I think we might be singing the same tune.

That argument definitely makes sense, since large corporations and wealthy people are looking to cheap labor to get a better return on their investment elsewhere, us as individuals can do the same and look elsewhere for a better value for our hard earned money.

****************************************************
Quote by CBGBConnisur:

"That argument definitely makes sense, since large corporations and wealthy people are looking to cheap labor to get a better return on their investment elsewhere, us as individuals can do the same and look elsewhere for a better value for our hard earned money."

****************************************************

Some of us, such as yourself, are already doing that. And loving every minute of it (as you seem to be).

BTW, when I spoke of "lower costs" in my last post, I wasn't speaking strictly in monetary terms; Westernized women can cost a guy in several other ways (just ask any divorcee). Child custody battles, degradation of self-esteem (in some mens' cases), the pressure of having to meet unrealistic expectations, lopsided expectations in relationships (e.g., she has all the rights and none of the responsibilities); I could go on, but the subject has been examined in this forum ad infinitum.

I guess our point is that when Western women go from being objects of desire to becoming leading sources of stress (at least for me) then it's probably time to look for greener pastures.

I think this is the first time I've read this section. Very informative. I saw someone mention the Tom Leykis Show. I have listened to it on and off the past few weeks. It is pretty hilarious. But there is some truth in some of what he preaches. For instance, most American guys are out to get laid (I know I am). With the general prudishness of American women, is it any wonder that American men are going for that international flavor?

The only thing I will say that most of you won't agree with is that looks aren't everything. I think an average looking chick is willing to try harder in the bedroom than a supermodel-like chick. Quality is important.

MP

Mystic Pimp

I'm the poster who mentioned Tom Leykis and man, listening to him makes me understand what Moses must have felt like when he received the Ten Commandment! LOL

I agree with you ALMOST 100% regarding the concept of the chick who is NOT a supermodel trying harder. HOWEVER Tom said that a chick who is NOT supermodel attractive generally has a better head on her shoulders and is a tougher prospect to lay. On the other side of the coin, a listener called in and said to Tom: "So you're saying that the more a woman looks like a supermodel, the DUMBER she is"? His response was: "BINGO!". I was fucking floored and I almost veered off the highway from laffing so hard!

The ordinary chick has to compensate by developing her inner self and brains and therefore is more wary, while supermodel can be taken in by a flash of cash, or huge cojones on a guy's part. ON THE OTHER HAND, my master (martial arts instructor) said that when he was in college, he sometimes got by by fucking ugly chicks who would pay the rent, etc in exchange for "services rendered". But I digress...

Tom Leykis pretty much advocates, NOT fucking American women because of the lack of satisfactory return on "investment". They don't wanna be construed as sluts and make a guy jump through hoops on the HOPES of MAYBE getting laid. Myself, I'm just tired of the God-damned head games they play and the false indignation they display when they discover you wanna get into their panties.

Sinanju Master:

Looks are good, but how women perform in the bedroom determines whether I want it from them more than once or consistently. As far as being looked at as a "****", it seems only the American women involved in alternative lifestyles can deal with the label. Recently I've been looking more to get laid in the US thru other means than the hooker or escort. The "Professor" has movitaved me (in his listener demographic) to try alternative methods to play around without commitment.

MP

Mystic Pimp

I'll agree that "performance" in the bedroom is a must, BUT what if your other half looks like Roseanne Barr? Myself, I need to strike a balance. The "Alternative Chick" option may seem great, but remember she's an AMERICAN CHICK and may respond negatively if you find things are less than what you consider perfect and you wanna bail. I can't really berate you for that anyway, 'cos I've been thinking of that lately myself.

Getting back to the performance issue: Do you want to be seen in public with a rusted out Ford Pinto body that houses a Ferrari engine, or do you want to be seen with a Ferrari body that contains a Yugo engine?

Honestly, if it's just about sex, I'm not out in public with 99.9% of these women anyway. That's a tough question about the cars, but yeah, balance is necessary.

Gentlemen,

While in this thread I have been generally a booster of "foreign" ladies, it is important to remember that not every "American woman" is the ogre we paint here. Having said that, only 5% of the "American women" I have ever been with were worthwhile, but THEY (the five percent) were very worthwhile. There are some positive aspects to that "colonial attitude" ( very liberated in some cases.)

Bar none, the very best BJ with CIM came from an ex-wife; and she was VERY American. The fact that she was a disaster as a human being is secondary.., Ahem.

Just trying to add some balance here; to my own posts if not those of the rest of the members.

Cheers,

Sporadic

Sporadic,

I guess I'm only speaking for myself here, however...

I'm not saying that ALL American women are like this. It's just that I've encountered the aforementioned negative attitudes from these women far more often than with any other culture/nationality (and when I say I've been around the globe, I'm not making that up).

It's why I keep zinging them; it HAS to be something in our culture. Other than that, your point is a valid one.

Sinanju,

It's probably easier to tweak the engine performance in the Ferrari, than to try to improve a knackered body even if it does contain a good engine. At least the looks of the Ferrari will impress your mates more!

ER

Smut,

No offense taken, nor implied in my post. I have found you can find good or bad everywhere you look (and I too, have been around the globe a couple of times.)

If we are talking about generalizations, and I suppose we must, then everything said here is spot on.

Cheers,

Sporadic

Still when it comes to American women, often you encounter a lot more bad than good. Sporadic you said it yourself when you mentioned that only 5 percent of the American women you encountered were worth your time, and that is a pitifully low percentage. So basically, you were saying that the vast majoirty of American women suck in a nice scientific method. That means that 95 out of every 100 American women are a waste of a man's time and will give him more stress than pleasure. In other Western countries that I have traveled to at least 50 to 60 percent of the women are indeed worth my time, so you're chancing of finding a fine catch are ten times better. I'm currently in Australia, and I would say at least two thirds, or 66.6 percent, of Australian women of child bearing age are clearly worthwhile, which is a lot better than the pitifully small 5 percent in the US. Two thirds of Australian women are attractive and at least one third are gorgeous, these are the ratios I picked up in Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, the Gold Coast, and Perth which are the five largest metros in Australia outside of Canberra. With the percentage of worthwhile American women hovering at only 5 percent, this number is nothing and can't satisfy the needs of the American male population. It is no wonder that the vast majority of posts regarding American women are very negative. What then happens to the remaining 95 percent of American men who can't get that top 5 percent of American women? They basically get a raw deal. I actually got to see that Kill Bill sequel while on business in the USA and there was a joke about American women,"All American women are good only for ordering food in a restaurant and spending a man's money" and the audience, mostly American males reacted with a very loud roar of laughter in agreement with this joke. So if 5 percent of American women are high quality with other 95 percent substandard, it is no wonder there have been so many negative comments about American women on this message board.

Guys, How did we allow American women to become, physically and socially so unattractive?

Why America?

Why to American men put up with it?

Can you imagine a Russian, Chinese, or Brazilian guy walking around with a fat female pig, who not only looks like a slob, but has a terrible attitude to match?

I'm not saying all American women are this way.

I'm actually dating a great miss universe type right now-- and she is American.

Also, different regions of the USA, are worse than others.

Still, the majority of American women do have weight problems and bad attitudes, I just wonder why?

Is is cultural, historical, monetary-- or are American men just idiots for condoning unacceptable behavior?

If you want to see a damned good example of what CBGB and myself are talking about, then head to an American military base sometime (especially one in an isolated area). The females, for the most part, aren't even that attractive; but since they're the "only game in town", the base becomes a fucking petri dish for some nasty female attitudes. The main problem with the guys on base (I know-I used to be one) was that they didn't know about the competition out in town, so they would put up with the shit they were presently getting on base (not realizing other options actually existed).

The very same thing is happening in the States (and the U.K.) but on a much grander scale.

I disagree with CBGB completely: American women are not even good for ordering food in a restaurant, since most of them can't cook and wouldn't know good food from a jack in the ass.

Now Smut Villain is right on time. I just spent 16 sorry weeks living and working on an American military base in the UK. You should see the pigs these guys marry and how fat they get. Oh, wait a minute; no, you shouldn't.

Thank god I am now in Argentina. Viva la patria!

Gentlemen,

If you are going to bring up military base problems, you may consider looking at the huge number of "foreign" brides who are now green-carded, and have dumped the 18 to 23 year old innocent G.I. husband who confused a decent lay with love. You simply cannot dump a kid from North Dakota into the P.I. without them becoming seriously star-struck.

I feel the base example is possibly a poor one; there have been camp followers since the time of the Romans, it, IMHO, has little to do with "American women."

Is it possible that the basically puritanical attitudes (not to mention neo-fundamentalist-super-repressed religious types of every stripe) are the root cause of the American man putting up with the American woman? Indeed made them what they are? It is a lame argument to blame society, but if not there, where?

Just a thought.

Cheers,

Sporadic

American women asked to be equal, so treat them as men. I have no manners (chivalry) whatsoever with them. My terderness is for women living out of the US, but i'm rude and mean to american women. I don't need them neither. They will have plenty of time to realize their situation around 55.

****************************************************
Quote by Bootyman:

"...I have no manners (chivalry) whatsoever with them. My terderness is for women living out of the US, but i'm rude and mean to american women. I don't need them neither..."

****************************************************

The ironic thing is that when you do that, American women respond positively to that sort of treatment (not all, but enough to let you know it's more than a coincidence). On the other hand, when you try to do it the right way (manners, chivalry, "just being yourself", etc) they write you off as some sort of pussy.

Go figure.

Smut V:[quote]The ironic thing is that when you do that, American women respond positively to that sort of treatment [/quote]

Interesting (and spot on!) comment. I am not, by nature, an asshole (there are probably many who may not agree with me...) but being rather rude and demanding does seem to be the best way to deal with A.W.

Kind of sad really, when you think about it, but in my experience, all too true.

Cheers,

Sporadic

This is a comment on "fat Americans":

Studies have shown that 65% of adult Americans are overweight. Assuming that the fat is evenly split among the genders, that means more than half of the women out there are fatter than the ideal women that men like. If more men are only going after the hottest women, those women can pick from the litter, basically acting like spoiled bitches because they know most men out there want that.

The last few posts sound like what would be discussed on the Tom Leykis Show. He basically promotes just trying to get laid, and f*ck trying to waste time wining and dining American women. The nice guys out there will take care of those women and probably won't get laid, while the assholes out there will be getting most of the punani.

****************************************************
"The nice guys out there will take care of those women and probably won't get laid, while the assholes out there will be getting most of the punani"

****************************************************

Mystic Pimp,

BINGO!!!!! That's exactly what happens with "nice guys". The women will fall for the assholes over and over (and over and...), then run to the nice guy to use as an emotional tampon. Nice guys gives them a shoulder to cry on, buys them dinner- just to watch the little heifer go back to the ams of her jerk.

When she wants money, food emotional support, and other needs taken care of she goes to the "nice guy"; when she wants to be fucked into oblivion, she goes to the asshole. Dating and mating is a "dog-eat-dog" world, and the "nice guy" is wearing "Milk-Bone" underwear.

Does it make sense? Hell, no. But that's just how these women think.

guys,

What about the american women in hawaii? any difference from the women in the mainland, attitude wise, look wise just wondering. I've been told that there more asian girls in hawaii just wondering if they have the same attitude towards men than the women from the mainland.

Smut Villain, that is an excellent term 'Emotional Tampon'! Because you are so right, women fall for the assholes time and time again, then when they get crushed again they go running to the 'safe' guy.

I fail to see the reasoning behind their warped logic, but you are exactly right. Women go to the 'bad boy' to get fucked into oblivion, then run to the 'safe guy' to be taken care of.

Women should take a lesson from us men. If you are a man, well I was going to say that we would fuck anything with two legs and a pussy, but then I caught myself and realized, what the fuck do you actually need the legs for, if it has a pussy, we'll fuck it! lol.

But, what I really don't understand is the women that go back to the man that phyically abuses them. In my opinion, you are no man if you hit a woman. You just don't hit women, period! These women with get the shit beat out of them, then go back for more, all the while protecting that sorry bastard from being found out as an abuser! I really don't understand the logic in that, yet it happens every single day.

"But, what I really don't understand is the women that go back to the man that phyically abuses them."

Fairly early on in my ridiculously lengthy college career, I did a research paper on this topic for a sociology class. I read all the literature, visited battered women's shelters, did interviews, and reflected on my research.

I couldn't figure out shit. "Low self esteem." Yeah, but [b]why go back to a guy who keeps hitting you?[/b] WTF??

BTW I agree with you about a man not being a man if he hits a woman, and I [b]love[/b] the [i]emotional tampon[/i] concept!

****************************************************
Quote by CBGBConnisur:

"American women in Hawaii are a seperate sub-category. Most people think of Hawaii as a part of the US only technically, otherwise its almost a different country. Most Hawaiians have a different ethnicity from mainlanders, they are predominantly Asian-Pacific Islanders while most of the American women being complained about on this board are Anglo-Celtic American women."

****************************************************

While most of what you are saying is quite correct, I think the questioner was actually asking about the general _attitudes_ of the female Hawaiians as opposed to women from the mainland.

BTW, I have to disagree (but only slightly) that we are talking about only Anglo-Celtic types in this forum; give any foreign woman a few years of being steeped in the U.S. materialistic culture and she'll eventually turn out to be every bit as mercenary as her native-born American friends (not always, but it happens too often).

Now you know why I want to go back to being an expatriate.

On another note, I have noticed that a lot of Australians that I meet here dream about moving to Los Angeles and New York to meet "upscale and cultured" women with money. These *******es really think the US is full of cultured and upscale women, I think these guys have been smoking some real potent shit. I was at a bus stop and noticed a billboard of Renee Zellwegger who in my opinion is a porker, there were two 20 something blondes standing right next to me as well as some local dudes and the local dudes rather than ogle the two fine pieces of Australian ass that were there in the flesh, stared at the photo of Miss Piggy herself aka Renee Zellweger and said "Renee is gorgeous." What a bunch of retards, they have no idea how good they have it in Oz. I often like to remind space cadets at work about how good they have it in Australia(and if things get tough they can always go to Thailand or Macau to party) regarding females. Some of these dudes are real losers and borderline alcoholics yet they still get some fine pussy. I knew this one Australian dude, who was fat with a gigantic beer gut, and unemployed, he also had a carpet on his back yet he still had a pretty good looking girlfriend. I still have yet to hear about unemployed alcoholics in the US fucking blonde hair blue eyed beauty queens.

Well, I am an unemployed alcoholic fucking blond beauty queens in Argentina, if that counts.

Mike12,

Which hotel for the japanese and korean flight crews?

I'm a big fan of the SW scene. The problem is some of them reek of perfume when they get in the car, (or worse something else). Obviously the worst possible thing that could happen is my SO finding out about my hobby.

I was wondering what any of you guys use to "cleanse" the smell of a potent SW out of your car. Any tips/tricks?

Much appreciated.

I have to scratch that part about J. Lo and Ben Affleck. J.Lo just got married to Mark Antony.

J.Lo is simply a high class ***** who can't sing above a whisper. Let's see how long this one lasts:rolleyes:

I never understood all the fuss about J. Lo because having traveled to South America quite a bit, I have seen a lot of J. Lo clones in Brazil and Mexico, in fact I have seen women that I have found to be a lot hotter than J. Lo. Those guys who have had lady trouble back home in the States should consider "outsourcing"(get a foreign chic), if big companies are doing it why can't the average person?

Dickhead,

Unemployed as well?:D

Hi, Freeler. Well, for the summer I am unemployed. I have worked lined up for the fall, though. Work is overrated anyway.

Rastaman

I am from LA and I wonder how hard do I have to work to find a nice, playful aussie girl? I am not bad looking but I am tired playing the games that american women do. Maybe there are more men in America, which give the advantage to american women.
When I travel to SE Asia I feel like a celebrity, that is why I keep coming back. It is that kind of treatment that men would like from women. Sure I am not saying a women has to go to bed the next hour, although most of us wouldn't refused either lol. But when US women play the game so hard, make me feel it is noth worth the time and money.

In SE Asia and I hope in Aussie too because I really like to travel to aussie someday soon. The women are open, they come to the club to find a good time too, just like men and therefore when you talked to them, they are not stuck up like american women.

Someone give me some tips about aussie's women and how to approach them, what is the men and women ratio in aussie?

My bretheren, your posts remind me of the broads on "Sex and the City". I've never watched a full episode, but they are damn near 100% typically American; they have stratospheric expectations, LOW desire to meet you halfway MUCH LESS make herself stand out among other females by going the extra mile, they possess a chip on their shoulders the size of a tectonic plate and they have an UNSHAKEABLE sense of ENTITLEMENT. They DEMAND to be treated as equals (like MEN), but when a guy treats her like a woman SHOULD, they lose interest and when we treat them as equals, they decry the death of chivalry! Myself, I don't NEED to deal with an ENTIRE NATION of psychos who are out to deprive me of my sanity! And on top of THAT, this attitude also comes from broads who in other countries wouldn't be worthy of being displayed in a CIRCUS as a bearded freak! What amazes me is that they display an air of "My pussy is the Gold Standard and you have to jump through hoops to get THIS". I smile now when I look at them when they say these things and think to myself: "Ignorance truly IS bliss". Sorry for the rant, my brothers, but I NEVER fail to be amazed at these clueless broads!

Sinanju Master-

Thanks for telling it like it is in a clear and concise way for all to understand. The entitlement point really nails it on the head. The only thing is that the ones here in NYC figure their entitled to an athlete/Mr.Big SITC type making millions with a Ferrari, luxury Manhattan apt, industry connections, and sailboat. With all the money being given away on TV with reality shows and big contracts handed out like peanuts maybe you can't blame their mindset either.

Sex and the City really screwed it up for the fellas bigtime. It basically put out there an image of a NYC lifestyle that the average female strives to live and then she actually goes out and emulates the show. Was actually on a date once and kept waiting for the cameras to pop out on me and tell me I was gonna be on the next episode. For real though, You see the broads strutting down the street here with there Prada bag, D&G outfit, Fendi shoes, umbrella accessory, talking on the celly hailing a cab like "who's better than me." That's the problem, with their mindset no one is, except Mr.Big of course. It's a farce.

Three years ago I was in an elevator with Kim Cattrall. Didn't know it was her though. Jumped in on after her while she held the door. Just me and her in the elevator. She actually asked me something and we small talked with me being totally clueless it was her. She was hot as a pistol too. Real friendly, nice person. I figured she was new on the floor and I was getting to know her for the future. Next day some female co-workers called me a dirty dog for following her in the elevator, so I asked why. They said that was Kim Cattrall the slutty chick from SITC. To say I felt like a complete idiot would be an understatement. Then her bubblebath in the locker room commercial got heavy rotation on the tube rite before bedtime and made my misery 10 times worse.

Prince,

Penn Hotel on 7th and Radisson on Lex. Dated a Signapore Airlines chick who stayed at the Radisson. Beware SAL girls. They are extremely high post broads used to the finer things in life. They are trained to be snooty. Couple years ago this little rapo from The Bronx had a Japanese stewardess twisted around his finger. After she seen his true colors she dumped him and he stalked her so she fled back to Japan. Point is, a lot of these girls are extremely naive, nice people who don't have a clue as to what it's really all about. So you can meet a good girl if you try hard, just be cool yourself.

Sinanju,

I think I speak for most dudes in this forum when I say "Amen". Your "rant" was definitely NOT out of line, and I think it's what most people are saying here anyway.

"An entire nation of psychos". Damn right.

There really should be another forum topic created "International Women: Why they are better". This American women discussion is becoming a waste of time.

****************************************************
CBGBConnisur:

"There really should be another forum topic created "International Women: Why they are better". This American women discussion is becoming a waste of time."

****************************************************

Actually, I'd like to see an "expatriate" forum. We already know that international babes rule (and why they rule), but the trick is in getting to the more fertile international hunting grounds, and existing in the culture once you are there.

Maybe a few of us should run this proposal by Jackson and see what he thinks?

I bursted out laughing when I saw this ad from a website

** 18 F looking for sugar daddy **

I am 18 living in Providence and looking for a sugar daddy. You must be able to come to me. You must be able to pay all or some of my rent. In return, you'll get my company which can include dinner, dates, intimacy, etc. This is NOT an escort ad! Just looking for a mutually beneficial relationship. email for photos and make sure that you include exactly what type of relationship you are looking for. Thanks!

Simply put, what does this tell ya? PM me if you wish to know the website. It's becoming popular

So lemme get this straight... this clueless stank-ass skank has the COJONES to demand a Sugar Daddy PAY for all this stuff JUST for the "privilege" of being in her company? This B**** must be on CRACK! At least when I spent $150 on lap dances during my friend's bachelor party, I got a lot more out of THAT than some sucker sitting across the dinner table from some high-maintenance, self-important beeyatch who wants to plant a vacuum in his walet! MAN that takes some fucking BALLS!

A guy could go down to South America and meet a female companion, pay her as little as $400 a month for a 9 or a "10", who will cook, clean your place, and fuck your brains out. A friend of mine went on a three month sabbatical to Sao Paulo and got this deal from a local beauty. $400 a month is what the typical college graduate earns in most South American countries.

Meatman, S.M., CBGB:

Now you know why some of us never seem to get tired of this subject; just when you thought you'd seen it all, the damn skanks achieve a new level of brazen idiocy!

I will give her credit in one area, however: at least she's upfront about her golddigging. Most other chicks aren't as willing to "display their contents on the label".

At least she's (practically) telling you that you should avoid her like the plague.

Smut,

What really makes me wide-eyed is that this trash thinks that her mere company is WORTH all that hoop-jumping bullshit! Hel-LO, broad, there are women beyond our shores that make you look like a second-hand, GoodWill throwaway by comparison, and they are a LOT friendlier! Even if they are in it for the $$, at least they are discreet and they show more of a "return on investment" than you EVER could. Also, they don't show a dorsal fin like you do.

Yeah, it's antics like THIS BROAD'S that keep this subject alive and roaring!

Honestly, if anyone gets the opportunity to visit a big Brazilian city like Rio or Sao Paulo, instead of the main tourist areas like the Copacabana, hang out around the Centro or business districts and check out the local female office workers, by US standards they are relatively poor, the average office worker in a big city earns less than $400US a month, offer a lady like this a little more and she will be your mistress/housewife. People in the US pay $400 for skanky high priced escorts that give you 10-15 minutes at best. Some places in Eastern Europe you can get this kind of deal with the local women.

Been seeing those ads for years. They actually work that's why they put them out there. Anything for money or luxury or to get ahead of the next person. Knew a chick couple years ago, 24, light skinned, Tyra Banks type that had her man, 60yo, Daddy Warbucks type pick her up in the limo every day at work. After a couple months said she was leaving to go back to school at Wharton School of Business to get her MBA. Maybe she's the VP of ops now at Ann Klein or DKNY for all I know.

I read this at another forum and thought it was a good read. Didn't see it posted here.

www.fredoneverything.net

Driving Down Unknown Roads

The Feminization Of America

March 29, 2004

In the United States women are, I think for the first time in history, gaining real power. Often nations have had queens, heiresses, and female aristocrats. These do not amount to much. Today women occupy positions of genuine authority in fields that matter, as for example publishing, journalism, and academia. They control education through high school. Politicians scramble for their votes. They control the divorce courts and usually get their way with things that matter to them.

If this is not unprecedented, I do not know of the precedent. What will be the consequences?

Men have controlled the world through most of history so we know what they do: build things, break things, invent things, compete with each other fiercely and often pointlessly, and fight endless wars that seem to them justifiable at the time but that, seen from afar, are just what males do. The unanswered question is what women would, or will, do. How will their increasing influence reshape the polity?

Women and men want very different things and therefore very different worlds. Men want sex, freedom, and adventure; women want security, pleasantness, and someone to care about (or for) them. Both like power. Men use it to conquer their neighbors whether in business or war, women to impose security and pleasantness.

I do not suggest that the instinctive behavior of women is necessarily bad, nor that of men necessarily good. I do suggest that that the effects will be profound, probably irreversible, and not necessarily entirely to the liking of either sex. The question may be whether one fears most being conquered or being nicened to death.

Consider what is called the Nanny State by men, who feel smothered by it, but is accepted if not supported by women, who see it as protective and caring. (Yes, I know that there are exceptions and degrees in all of this, and no, I don?t have polling data.) Note that women are much more concerned than are men about health and well-being. Women worry about second-hand smoke, outlawing guns, lowering the allowable blood-alcohol levels for drivers, making little boys wear helmets while riding bicycles, and outlawing such forms of violence as dodge ball or the use of plastic ray guns. Much of this is demonstrably irrational, but that is the nature of instincts. (Neither is the male tendency to form armed bands and attack anyone within reach a pinnacle of reason.)

The implications of female influence for freedom, at least as men understand the word, are not good. Women will accept restrictions on their behavior if in doing so they feel more secure. They have less need of freedom, which is not particularly important in living a secure, orderly, routine, and comfortable life. They tend not to see political correctness as irritating, but as keeping people from saying unpleasant things.

The growing feminizaton accounts for much of the decline in the schools. The hostility to competition of any sort is an expression of the female desire for pleasantness; competition is a mild form of combat, by which men are attracted and women repelled. The emphasis on how children feel about each other instead of on what they learn is profoundly female (as for that matter is the associated fascination with psychotherapy). The drugging of male schoolchildren into passivity is the imposition of pleasantness by chemical means. Little boys are not nice, but fidgety wild men writ small who, bored out of their skulls, tend to rowdiness. They are also hard for the average woman to control and, since male teachers are absent, gelded, or terrified of litigious parents, expulsion and resort to the police fill the void. The oft-repeated suspension of boys for drawing soldiers or playing space war is, methinks, a quietly hysterical attempt to assuage formless insecurity.

The change in marriage and the deterioration of the family are likewise the results of the growth of political power of women. Whether this is good or bad remains to be seen, but it is assuredly happening. Divorce became common because women wanted to get out of unsatisfactory marriages. In divorce women usually want the children, and have the clout to get them. But someone has to feed the young. Thus the vindictive pursuit of divorced fathers who won?t or can?t pay child support. And thus the rise of the government as de facto father to provide welfare, tax breaks, daycare, and otherwise behave as a virtual husband.

When women entered a male workplace, they found that they didn?t much like it. Men told off-color jokes, looked at protuberant body parts, engaged in rough verbal sparring as a form of social interaction, and behaved in accord with rules that women didn?t and don?t understand. Women had the influence to change things, and did. Laws grew like kudzu to ban sexual harassment, whether real or imagined. Affirmative action, in addition to being a naked power grab, avoids competition and therefore making the losers feel bad. It degrades the performance of organizations, sometimes seriously, but performance is a preoccupation of males.

Men are capable of malignant government, whether authoritarian or totalitarian, as witness North Korea or the Russia of Stalin. I don?t know whether women would behave as badly if they had the power. (I?d guess not.) But women have their own totalitarian tendencies. They will if allowed impose a seamless tyranny of suffocating safety, social control, and political propriety. Men are happy for men to be men and women to be women; women want us all to be women.

The United States becomes daily more a woman?s world: comfortable, safe, with few outlets for a man?s desire for risk. The America of wild empty country, of guns and fishing and hunting, of physical labor and hot rods and schoolyard fights, has turned gradually into a land of shopping malls and sensible cars and bureaucracy. Risk is now mostly artificial and not very risky. There is skydiving and scuba and you can still find places to go fast on motorcycles, but it gets harder. Jobs increasingly require the feminine virtues of patience, accommodation to routine, and subordination of performance to civility. Just about everything that once defined masculinity is now denounced as ?macho,? a hostile word embodying the female incomprehension of men.

A case can be made that a feminized world would (or will) be preferable to a masculine. Perhaps. It is males who bomb cities and shoot people in Seven-Elevens. Yet the experiment has not been made. I suspect we will have the worst of both worlds: a nation in which men at the top engage in the usual wars and, a step below, women impose inutterable boredom.

Smut Villian:

As far as the nice guys finishing last, how assholes get laid, I think I have learned from experience. American women seem to go for guys that leave them wanting more.

Dran Reb:

That is said, seeing the "pussification" of America.

Meat Man:

Thanks for letting us know about that "18 F for a sugar daddy" ad. It may be only one ad, but I'm willing to bet there are THOUSANDS of women in this country looking for a guy to take care of them, etc. Maybe some men want to and can afford to do that. More power to them. But for those of us who just want sex, it is NOT good to pay anyone who won't guarantee to "take care of Little Head". We need to stop helping these women who may or may not put out. I say if you're paying, and you don't get what you want the first time, that should be the last time that b*tch takes money from you. Move on!

MP

Dran Reb

FASCINATING report! I often wonder what it would be like if women ran the planet, but I remember a few years ago, I got my answer. I was reading the newspaper (a major one, but it seems we're all fed the same crap by the news giants Matrix-style) and a woman who is prominent in her field of expertise (I forget her name or specialty) said that if WOMEN were in control and shaped history from the beginning INSTEAD of men, we'd all be wearing grass skirts and tending to our farming. She went on to pretty much say that the OVERWHELMING amount of scientific, philosophical and other advances would NOT have occured if women ruled the world. We'd pretty much stagnate mentally as a species. That's not to say that the rule of Men is without its flaws. We DO cause wars, we DO commit most crimes against our fellow man, and so on. However, I'd rather be free to determine my own destiny instead of having someone else wrest that control from me because they want to eliminate any unpleasantness that may occur while I'm on the path to self determination. I'd rather die after living a life I've lived through my own efforts than to experience the living death of just taking up space and being subjected to a non-life of a boring, safe, predetermined script written by those who have no internal flame.

Just my 2 cents...

[b] The answer to **18F looking for Sugar Daddy**[/b]

Dude seeking a SUGA MAMA - m4w - 36

Seeing as many c***rags post these type of things, I will do the same. I am seeking a rich older woman who would enjoy spoiling a nice young guy. I would like to be taken out to nice restaurants, shows, movies, shopping, and if you are really rich, I'd like a car!

For all this, you will be able to participate in the joys of watching me be happy and maybe, if you are attractive, I'll fuck you once in a while.

my name is ******. and I'm a sexy beast. Send a financial report, a list of things you can offer, and a pic. That will do just fine. Thanks.

I hope I get all kinds of responses...YAYY!

Right back atcha! :D

The media definitely does play a role in all of this, especially with regards to developing the attitude of most women, regardless of race, color, religion, or ethnicity in the US. The media also plays a role in conditioning males to take all the of bullsh*t crap that women dole out against men. Look at that apprentice show with Donald Trump and how the males took a lot of shit from the females and the men said absolutely. They said nothing in response because they were all conditioned in that nice Politically Correct double standard to simply continue to reciprocate respect even though the women treated them with disrespect. The women also used sexuality to win several times, in one episode where they had to manage a restaurant, the ladies were flirting with males passersby to get them into the restaurant as well as buy drinks. The men couldn't even try such an approach on female passersby because they would have gotten sued for sexual harassment.

CBGBConnisur:

In the end, it was the men that won. A man did win the contest, and another man was a runner up. Women can do all they want, but it's because a lot have to use their physical attributes to get up in the world that men will predominantly control. Two quotes:

(1) It's a man's world.
(2) Pussy makes the world go round.

MP

I disagree on the second one its more that money makes the world go round. You need money to get pussy.

Another saying a dude taught me a while back: "Women have HALF the money and ALL the PUSSY"

Except after a divorce. Then they have all the money [b]and[/b] all the pussy.

Mystic Pimp:[quote](1) It's a man's world.
(2) Pussy makes the world go round.[/quote] I would add number three...

(3) In a battle between you and the world, bet on the world.

Cheers,

Sporadic

Guys, there's a site you have GOT to see....

www.nomarriage.com

This shit is hilarious (it would be even more so if every bit of it wasn't so damned true)!!!

HOLY SHIT!!

Smut, I read only a few links on the site and it was like a sky of dark clouds was parted to reveal the light. After that light had shone down, I looked around and found that we are LEGION in number!

The strangling off of the sex (like a slow, methodical martial arts chokehold that induces a brain-dead state) really hammered home the message to me. I pitied the living death that is being experienced by the guys who have KIDS and a money-grubbing wife whose only joy in life is to sap the soul from the poor man unlucky enough to be married to her!

I really like the comparison regarding Western and non-western women. Reveling in their femininity is a turn-on that non-western women thankfully enjoy.

I'm still stunned... I can't compliment that site ENOUGH!

Smut Villian:

When I read this site, I feel like I am reading the holy grail! *LOL* I think one thing I would say about the opinions of that website is that foreign women could act like "Western" women if corrupted enough.

MP

So any opinions on what race/ethnicity of "Western" women to avoid? Or does it not matter, just avoid them all if you can?

"Western" women is much to broad of a term.

I personally love the physical attributes of western women, which is why I can't avoid them.

Simply avoid American, and UK women. All other western women generally speaking have fun disposition and a very sexy body to match. At least the younger women. Of course you will run into a few apples anywhere.

Gentlemen,

A Forum buddy (11Bravo) sent me this, and although it could be termed humor, it sort of sums up the "American women" attitude. I hope you enjoy it.

Cheers,

Sporadic

[i]Subject: Men Never Learn

Due to inherit a fortune when his sickly, widower father died, Charles decided he needed a woman to enjoy it with. Going to a singles' bar, he spotted a woman whose beauty took his breath away.
_
"I'm just an ordinary man," he said, walking up to her, "but in just a month or two, my father will die and I'll inherit 20 million dollars."
_
The woman went home with Charles, and the next day she became his stepmother.
_
Men will never learn.[/i]

My Bretheren:

Upon further reading of the aforementioned site, I came upon ANOTHER incredible whopper of a bullshit lie. There is this chick that posted her expectations in a man, and the more I read, the more I deperately searched for my hip waders. The site said (with some accuracy, I will concur) that this is a typical American woman. Upon reviewing this info (after I provide the link) observe how it's ALL about HER and that there's NO hint of compromise whatsoever. FACT: when a guy exhibits these qualities, the woman then thinks that he's too easy a conquest and then gets bored with him. She will then think that he has no spine and will search for a "real man" (a man she CAN'T control). So, her Mr. Sensitive will eventually turn out to be the PERFECT repellant and drive her AWAY. This list that she provides is the perfect recipe to REPEL her, whether she knows it or not. What's so bad is that if she ever DOES meet up with this guy (never gonna happen) she won't acknowledge that she spoke half-truths the ENTIRE time!

What astounds me about all this BS about American women is how they're like SPIDERS; they lure a guy in with visuals and promises of whats to come, but when they've landed the poor fly (guy) in the web, they consume him with unrealistic demands, whining, the imposing of doublespeak (and double standards) and other shit that makes a guy view his situation as a living death. Also, to make the Deathblow COMPLETE, they let themselves GO (getting outrageously FAT and refusing to meaningfully contribute to the relationship) and accuse the fly of being shallow because he isn't happy that he is now married to a soul-sucking hippopotamus instead of the hot-looking sex fiend he originally married.

Here is the link my brothers:


http://www.nomarriage.com/perfectguy.html

Sinanju Master,

It goes without saying the this Rachel women will probably remain a spinster all her life. Her list, though somewhat repetitive, rings a number of bells from many a chica I have known…

What do you think: all relations dating back to the Mayflower pilgrims? LOL.

Regards, Havanaman

I too, read the profile from the nomarriage site regarding "Rachel". I've noticed that women on these dating sites generally fall into one of three different categories. 1 - very picky. 2 - Desperate. 3 - Baggage (of the emotional variety).

This Rachel obviously falls into the first category. IMO, she would likely be prone to overanalysing every single thing the guy does and says. No wonder she has to try and find a guy by using a dating site. I bet every guy within a 20 mile radius is avoiding her like the plague!

Question to anybody willing to enlight foreigner moved recently and living in States.

It probably was asked on this forum but this forum is huge and event described below happened in DC.

Since I wasn't born in North America I have trouble with eye contact meanings in USA and how it depends on location where it was received. One girl sitting in company of 4 other girls inside of cafe made one short term eye contact with me. I was sitting alone. Then a 10-15 min later made second long one. What did she want? I was puzzled and didn't do any move. I must note that was cafe with 50/50 foreign/local born people. May be she was a foreigner because I know that in north america nobody gives eye contact especially female unless they want something from you. It would be different in other countries. For instance, in Eastern Europe described above behavior of the girl would mean nothing special.

In general over there I'm making and receiving hundreds eye contacts a day with women of doable age and not having a word and not having sex with one of them . I'm talking about street, official organization, night clubs,public transportation, social interaction etc. Sexual conatation comes later in conversation.

Thanks in advance.

Overheard On the Train

Two decent looking white chicks- The Chelsea Clinton looking one saying how she's seeing or dating a guy, attractive, intelligent, but he seems to overanxious and interrupted her a few times and she don't like that. This immediately followed up by a comment that he works in sales for blank blank big company and has an apt in ---(rich neighborhood in Manhattan). So the tone of her saying that seemed to make up for her not liking his unpardonable interrupting habit. Then one of them saying they went on a first date and the guy showed up in shorts (with cargo pockets) and she was horrified and tried to hide in the crowd.

Now if any guy I know says some bs like that to me about not liking a chick because she seems overanxious, he's definitely gonna get the business from me most definitely. What I can't stand about these picky American woman is that nothing is perfect enough for them. One chick somewhere said "but he always says the wrong thing". To them there is an secret way to act they think all men must abide by. Unless you have money or stardom, then it is ok for you to be as much of an asshole as possible and get away with it.

Cargo Shorts? I just bought a couple of pairs of cargo shorts. What the fuck is wrong with cargo shorts now? Ah screw women if they don't like them anyways. There're great for mongering trips. Digital camera, Spanish dictionary, wallet in the front pocket, knife, flashlight, pen, note pad, lots of extra condoms etc. I call them mongering pants.

[b]Klitchkov[/b]:[quote]One girl sitting in company of 4 other girls inside of cafe made one short term eye contact with me. I was sitting alone. Then a 10-15 min later made second long one. What did she want? I was puzzled and didn't do any move.[/quote]She wanted your money. ;)

Klitchkov,

She wanted you to go over and start talking to her and them. It would have been real akward to go over and start trying to be the Casanova with 4 women scrutinizing everything you say and do not to mention how you look. This is how they expect to meet men. Been in this situation a couple times. One chick called me after a month and asked me to come over her house. When I arrived her house was packed with friends of hers who asked me a million questions. Another time a dates friend materialized like magic and started quizzing me and told me I lost a point because I got the main language of Nigeria wrong! Women in America can't make decisions on their own about guys and need friends to tell them what to do. Remember how Pam Anderson met Tommy Lee? He crashed her table and started licking her face without even knowing her.

Mike12

well said. I totally understand and agree with what you said below.

Are you anywhere nearby NYC, NJ? How good is the scene here?

Thanks

Klitchkov,

Sporadic is probably right - she probably wanted your money, but it's possible that you were doing something she perceived as being "rude" (like breathing, or sitting at the table she wanted, or looking at her, or scratching yourself, or - well, the list is just too long when dealing with American women) - actually saying something to you about your behavior could be interpreted as "road rage" (cafe rage?), but glaring at you and flaming you in her mind is apparently socially acceptable.

Bernard - oops - Dran Reb,

After my experience yesterday, I have a new-found appreciation of cargo pockets (got pick pocketed while receiving a BJ - If my cash was sealed in a cargo pocket, this would have been much more difficult - but she was a very talented pick-pocket, so she may have succeeded anyway).

Mike12,

The guy she was describing is probably in a fairly high-stress job and would probably want an occassional moment of silence. One thing I've noticed more and more frequently over the last decade is that American women are becoming intolerable motor mouths - like they're all overdosing on Caffiene or something. Sprint PCS had a commercial that illustrated this perfectly with a little girl who was talking at about 5000 words per minute while braiding everyone's hair - you may have seen it. I reckon that he interrupted her, quite possibly, "non-sensical diatribe about nothing in particular" with the intention of pissing her off so that she would shut up and stew for a 30 seconds, thus giving him his much needed few moments of "quiet time".

CW

It seems to me that sex in North America is basically the whole "look but don't touch" philosophy. Girls get all dolled up and they're programmed to shut-down direct sexual advances.

In Europe and South America sexuality is the essence of man-woman relationships. Here, its all behind closed doors.I don't even see many displays of public affection. Sometimes I see people holding hands but thats it. It's like sex is supposed to be a huge "secret" thing that goes on.

Why does it have to be secret? Why do the women here feel they need to hide all their desires until they get to the bedroom?You go to a South American country, women are openly affectionate and sexual. They don't hide their desires like the women do in North America.

Even in Montreal, Canada. You'll see a difference there and other places. The simple act of "cheek kisses" as a greeting sets the tone for more sexuality. We need to embrace our sexuality more. Not hide it. All these "disinterest" tactics are too complicated for me. They give me a headache and make me overthink what i'm trying to accomplish.

I'm pretty sure I'm gonna move my ass to a more sexually liberated country at some point(In another life). A place where women don't have so much hidden sexual power.

Asia is probably even better than Europe or South America, Asian women seem to have the lowest maintenance cost. Frankly, the best looking Asian women never see America's shores, they all seem to prefer to live in their own countries. I spent a vacation in Hong Kong and Maucau and saw some of the finest looking women I have ever seen in my life.

CBGBConnisur,

you definitely know what you're talking about. I've been to Vietnam and got a sore neck from turning to look at all the FINE young women. They seemed to be everywhere I looked. Slim, petite asian girls riding around on scooters, working in stores or just walking down the street. It truly seems to me that the average girl in one of these countries is far superior in both looks and attitude. North american women tend to look like livestock by comparison. Livestock with a whole bunch of insecurities, selfish attitudes and conflicting desires.

I think about this all the time. It occurs to me that the women here are all mixed up because of all the mixed messages they get from the media while they are growing up. On one side, you have nature, and the way things are meant to be. On the other side, you have political correctness, "sexual equality", womens lib and all the other crazy Oprah-style crap thats been fed to them for the last 20 or 30 years.

Me, I pretty much gave up on these women about 6 or 7 years ago. I generally go for non-white women who are recent immigrants. It's like a breath of fresh air! I've had the most enjoyable and successful relationships with them. These women just plain make sense.

Anyways, my 2 cents worth.

Asians low cost please!

meatman,
No offense, but sexuality is not so open in south America as you put it. Ever heard of the Catholic Church? It's a pretty big deal in S. America. Sure, you people go on vacation abroad and hang out in seedy strip clubs and mongering watering holes, you're bound to get the perception that all these women openly express their sexuality.

Fact of the matter is, most women from S. America are FAR more conservative then women are in the USA!

They are all Catholic raised and schooled.

Get Real people, get you head out of the mongering water holes, come up for air and see the reality. A ***** is a *****, no matter where she is from.

TANG~!

That is why Catholics go to confession :).

Three X, as far as what I have seen and experienced with Asian women is that they tend to be very respectful to men. Very few women from Asian countries nag or talk back to their husbands, they are also very submissive, and consider a man to be man.

CBG,

on the topic of being submissive, most Women throughout the entire world are far more submissive then Western women. This much is true, but as far open sexuality, S. American women are raised and act conservative for the most part. Asian women are also very conservative, especially in public, as gestures of affection are often frowned upon.

The big problem I personally see with American Women in general is liberalism. Women think we owe them our, lives, souls, and anything we might ever own, to bang their love box. Women in America view their sexuality as a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

In other countries, women actually give sex and love for companionship and a return of affection. Not so often found these days in America.

In my opinion, American women had better get back with the program. There are millions of American men seeking marriage outside the USA, just for the reasons listed above!

I can honestly say if I were looking to get married, I would look elsewhere.

TANG~!

Asian women are way more accommodating than American women. In college I dated pretty much American women exclusively -- I did not know any better. After college and not finding any American women that did not have an ulterior motive to hook up. They always wanted something for nothing. It was always what have you done for me lately. You tend to give up more and more liberties the longer the relationship last. Bottom line, American women do not allow a man to be a man anymore.

I started going our with a Korean national who was going to college in America. I could not believe that a woman would pamper a man that much in this day and age. I would be catered to hand and foot. She even thought it was wierd when I tried to show affection to her in private and public. She had to get used to that. When my friends would ask me out to go drinking she would encourage me to go with no repercussions later. In Korea, when a man goes drinking, he goes because he is a man and that is what men do. She would never let me be the one left out. I would have to say that she wants me to be a man.

Most of my friends also hooked up with women from asian countries. They all tell me the same thing. So at least where I am coming from asian women are far more accommodating to men in general. As a man what more can you ask for?

HK Man,

Am in NYC. The mongering scene here sucks and consists of crackheads wandering around, occasional girls in vehicles turning tricks, and high priced call girls wanting hundreds of dollars. The whole scene is the worst and is not even worth making an effort for unless you are in the loop for local sex parties that are straight ghetto- (Brainfest). Anyone who was here in the 80's can attest to what i'm sayin since it was a sexual disneyland then. Now Times Square is Disneyland for real. If you are looking for sex, don't come here even if money is no object.

The scene for regular chicks is pretty good if you got a little game. In NY you run into girls of all shapes and colors on an every day basis and have to be on point like a laser. Go into any Sbarros or Midtown Mcdonalds, Modells, Macy's, cafe, or subway train and do your thing.

I know dudes that hang out in Penn Station and wait for a drunk chick to get on their train then they follow them on and sit next to them. Another lowlife I know hangs out at train and bus stations and chats up Carribean nannies with total bullshit and actually scores. One friend was gonna bring me to an AA meeting because he said alot of chicks go and when they are off the sauce the next best thing is for them to have sex! I am not a drinker but was willing to try it out until he died unexpectedly. The Madonna concert the other nite had thousands of hot looking blond chicks all looking to party afterwards. Check out the Copacabana niteclub on Sat nite.

heh, i friggin' love that nomarriage.com site! reminds me of what happened down at one of my regular bars a few weekends ago: i'm sitting there chatting with the staff and my friend when an ann jillian lookalike starts talking to us. apparently, my friend knew this lookalike and told me how she was great because she spoke her mind.

just then, my friend excuses himself for a bio break, and the girl starts telling me why she went to college. she wanted to get a degree in psychology so she could get inside men's heads and control them.

i can't even begin to make this stuff up!

last week i told my friend about what she had told me, and he said with lightning speed, "sheaintgonnacontrolme!" but since her revelation to me, he had taken her out for dinner and found out she was a psycho nut-job anyway.

thank god i ain't married! what was the bumper sticker i saw the other day? "why get married? just find someone you hate and buy 'em a house!"

-- l.

Getting Tang is full of shit as usual. I don't think he's ever been to SA. Probably thinks México is in South America.

CBGBConnisur,

French Canadians get a North American woman into bed easier than a South American woman?

Guys,

The problem with American women is very simple. A higher percentage of American women are fat then in any other country in the world. Therefore, you get a crazy ratio that is approximately 7 guys to every 1 good-looking young women. In many other countries the ratio is to 2/1 or even 1/1. The result is good-looking American women get inflated egos and expectations from tons of idiot guys tripping over themselves just to talk to them. Add to this the conservative, feminist, puritanical history of the U.S., and little or no legalized prostitution, and American guys have a challenge getting a little action from an attractive American women.

nb

No I said it is easier for American men to get South American and French Canadian women into bed than American women and Anglo Canadian women.

New bound has hit the nail on the head!! The whole problem with women here can be summed up in just 3 simple words: supply and demand.

Thats it, thats all you need to know to understand why they are the way they are. For example, take 1000 women btw the ages of 20 to 40. Eliminate the ones that are fat and you've got about 600 left. Out of that number, eliminate the ones who have homely faces, short legs, saggy tits etc. and you'll be left with maybe 100 or so. Out of that hundred, you're left with the ones who havent got a decent enough personality to last in a relationship.

We men have been conditioned by the media to want the best looking women. We are constantly bombarded with images of female perfection in movies, magazines and TV. These women really represent the top 1 or 2% of physical attractiveness. Most guys keep trying and trying to get one while bypassing the other 98% as being not attractive enough. I think there must be a 40 or 50 to 1 ratio of interested men for every single one of these women. Why would they even bother to develop any kind of personality. It would be a small miracle if they ever did!

As if the odds werent high enough already, most of the good ones will inevitably be taken. The ones who are left over are bound to have issues that make them a poor choice for a girlfriend/wife. Just like someone who can hold down a steady job and would be considered unemployable. These women go from relationship to relationship. They are the romantic equivalent of the unemployed. These are the women we keep running into when we want to get laid. No wonder some guys would rather skip the BS and just pay so they can get to the good part without all the extra hassle.

My 2 cents worth for today.

Rock

Rock Dog:

Yep, supply and demand is one of the simplest reasons things are the way they are in America today.

I'm glad to see this thread has finally stumbled on the underlying issue - supply and demand. But of all the components mentioned, what makes the US unique (or almost) is the aggressive suppression of prostitution. When this is available it provides instant competition - all else follows. You have to get out of the country to experience the difference. I really do feel sorry for guys that don't live near a border.

My 2 cents worth on the recent issues brought to bear: the media bombardment of the image of physical (female) perfection is only the idea being FED to us instead of like, say, during our Cro-Magnon days when we as men actually SOUGHT OUT what we deemed the image of physical perfection. Back then, we sought out a young mate who appeared fertile (hips that suggested that she could successfully bear children, and if I'm not mistaken, breasts that suggested feeding of the young would be no problem). It's really no different TODAY than way back then with the exception that we are now bombarded with said images (updated for today's tastes) and as a result, we seek out that which we deem to be perfect. HOWEVER, today, OTHERS are choosing FOR US that which is "perfect". There's nothing really wrong with any of this as long as we see through the bombardment and realize that it happens this way.

The Supply and Demand concept works MUCH BETTER in the States than overseas because prostitution is criminalized here. Can you IMAGINE the outcry from American WOMEN if prostitution were LEGALIZED? They (the soul-sucking psychos) as a group would lose MASSIVE POWER because they would realize that since men are after ONE THING, and that thing is now made readily available to even the average working Joe, the present power IMBALANCE would tip away from American women. Soul-sucking Psycho-***** gives it infrequently IF AT ALL because she's waiting for the "right one" (translated: a sucker to finance a lifestyle that will enable her to spit out multiple rugrats, sit on her ever-widening ass, and effectively control the purse strings even though the hard-working Joe is the breadwinner). Remove Psycho-***** from the equation and Joe gets to spill his seed in any number of females (to his visual or sexual tastes) who will provide p4p. All (sane) sides are happy.

As for the tip top 1% of Ultra Beautiful women who don't take the time to try to develop their personalities; Time can be the Ultimate Revenge. I said in an earlier thread that women and men use different currencies to get through Life. Women use their looks and sexual wiles to get what they want. Men use CURRENCY. Women's "currency" loses its value each and every day, each and every moment they draw in a breath. It eventually gets very difficult to find one willing to trade for their currency when it loses most if not ALL of its visual appeal. Hard Currency lasts LONGER and the possessor of it (assuming he's got a good business head on his shoulders) will be able to procure the services of even the TOP possessor of women's currency. Whenever I hear of women complaining about older guys banging younger chicks, I see jealousy rearing its ugly head, because at one time THEY were in the younger woman's shoes wielding a power they no longer have. NOW they have a much more difficult time, because the intense competition reveals them as yesterYEAR'S item. As a result, they lash out and try to shame us for applying OUR version of currency/power.

Any thoughts on this, my bretheren?

I would not make the assumption that all American women have looks as their only currency. There are a lot of females working in the corporate world making a decent amount of money. They would tend to be very picky on whom they go out with.

In addition, many of my female colleagues in the healthcare industry make over $50,000 a year. The other night, while they were perusing through some dating websites, such as American Single.Com, I asked them what they were looking for in a mate.

They pretty much told me the that they only want to date those who have the qualities that they want in the perfect mate or else they won't date at all, something like what Rachel in nomarriage.com indicated.

They did not want the hassle of going out with those who they see as less than perfect because they have the material currency of supporting themselves and not needing a mate to do so.

I think this applies to most Western European women as well, since they live in a region where independence and making money are held in high regards.

However, in those countries that are economically poor and thus having a large social network is important, such as those in Latin America and Asia, women tend to be less independent and have to rely on a man to support them. As a result, they are less strict on what they want in their mates.

I have been asked by many non-American women whether I am scared by living alone and supporting myself on my own. To me, this is such a ridiculous question because it comes so naturally for a person raised in the US to be independent and not to rely on somebody else economically.

However, for those, especially women, who rely on others for support and living with mom and pop until the day they get married is normal, the concept of living alone is an antithesis. To them is it is so foreign for a young individual to be on their own.

Sinanju Master

Well said, I agree!However, we must all remember women are emotionally driven creatures, thus always subject to being persuaded my us males!

TANG~!

I largely agree regarding the comments to supply and demand, but I think it is only one aspect of a really vicious tangle.

Frankly, I while I hold a high degree of disdain for American women, I also pity them.

The "modern" American woman has been conditioned (liberal education, femino-centric jurisprudence, advertising and entertainment media) to beleive that she should be financially independant, morally superior, and emotionally dominant in her relations with the male sex.

The reality is that this is not her biological construction. Biologically because of the need to beget and protect children, women need a man able to provide for and protect a family. It is a harsh world out there and a strong man is needed to accomplish this. This need is native and existes at the level of INSTICNT and cannot be wished or educated away.

Therefore, if she actually hooks up with her "ideal mate" (sensitive, deferential, weak) she is miserable because he is not a real man and she cannot respect him. Divorce is likely. If she hooks up with a real man she immediately sets out "changing" (i.e. emasculating) him and once she succeeds in destroying him she loses all respect for the poor fool. Again, divorece is likely.

Because of this opposed and mutually exclusive dichotomy your average modern American woman is basically mentally unbalanced when it comes to forming a relationship with a man. She is insane when it comes to men and family. This is not a slight or a joke, she is factually INSANE in this area.

(All the above applies to women no matter how good looking or ugly she be. While the ugly woman may be more accomoding in the beginning of a relationship, once she has a kid or two all bets are off.)

Because of all this I pity American women.

I pity the bums I see on the street as well, but I don't give them money because I know it really won't help them and in fact will only encourage their misery. So I treat American women the same. I am polite and respectfull, but I don't condone or encourage their condition. I encourage all other men to do the same.

It's like the sign at the Zoo that says "Don't Feed The Animals."

Most men would never consider marrying a woman with a drug or alcohol problem, or who was suicidal, or who had any other serious mental disorder, so why hook up with an "independant" woman?

She will only drive you insane as well.

Sun Devil

I don't dispute at all that there are high-powered, highly-paid corporate women out there. That being said, they may live well-off in their later years if they WISELY invest the money they earn NOW, BUT put a man and a woman (both are veterans of the workforce) of equal age and equal comfortable monetary circumstance TOGETHER, and the MAN is gonna be able to hook up with a hot young chick 98 times out of 100 compared to 2 times for the woman of similar age and financial lot to hook up with a young male stud.

We may hear of the recent phenomenon(?) of the younger male hooking up with the older female, but where do we hear it from? Hollywood. Even THEN, we don't get a deluge of examples. Out in the REAL WORLD, with people who are NOT famous, the OVERWHELMING amount of the time you will see a middle aged guy with a young trophy chick on his arm.

Also remember that these high-powered, highly-paid women may be choosy, but they also don't seem to take into account that time is their enemy MORE SO than a man's. They have to battle the Biological Clock, and as cruel as it may seem, on average, youngers dudes are NOT attracted to older women the same way or as often as younger women are attracted to older MEN. Their "currency" (their attractiveness to the eye of the beholder, or the male public) quickly loses its value over time. They have LESS time and MORE pressure to land a premium man because of these circumstances. A distantly related example is when I was watching 20/20. It featured a segment on career women (ALL HEIFERS) who were high-powered and highly-paid, but never had children or took the time to seek out a mate. These women were regretful that they didn't take the time from their careers to concentrate on said matters, BUT they DID seek out the assistance of IV fertilization. They may now have children since they are now past the safe age to procreate, but ALL were without a mate to share a life with or to share the upbringing of the child.

Guys,

American women are not that hard to figure out, or to get in the sack. The reason why most of you find the pickings better in other countries is in other countries a 40-year old pot-bellied hairy-backed non-multi-lingual European/American can provide an 18-24 year old hottie with something she really needs. That thing is, of course, as much cash for an hour's acting like you're something hot as she'd get for a week or two working hard in a factory or store or on a farm.

You can also get hot American women under 25 if you've got sufficent cash, even if you're nothing special. American women can support themselves comfortably without a man, and so most of the hotties don't have to settle for selling themselves for next to nothing.

American women like a guy who's capable of giving them some company that makes them feel good about themselves, and recognizes that they're not dependent. If you can be interested in them -- or many them think that you are -- and have a good time with them without sex it's easy to get them to take a flyer on a bedroom visit. But if all you can do is offer to buy them dinner, and you look like s***, don't expect to get a hottie.

American women can be wild. They like sex as much as women from other countries. If you try to buy them, though, you'll find they're really expensive and it doesn't make most of them happy. One of the best extended periods I ever had with a woman was with on a month-long vacation in Europe with a woman paying her own way. If she bought lunch, I bought dinner, etc. And she kept me drained for the entire week, including during her period, when she gobbled me 2-3 times a day just to keep me happy. I didn't try to watch sports shows or get plastered or dump her to hang out with guys.

If your american women aren't seeming to have as many orgasms as your foreign ******, the problem isn't with the American women -- it's that the ****** are faking it well enough for you not to know the difference.

****************************************************
Quote by Shadow Lance:


"Because of this opposed and mutually exclusive dichotomy your average modern American woman is basically mentally unbalanced when it comes to forming a relationship with a man. She is insane when it comes to men and family. This is not a slight or a joke, she is factually INSANE in this area."

****************************************************

Insane, eh? I've never thought of it that way... But now that you mention it, the things they do never seem to make much sense. Personally, I've always thought that this "insanity" was because they always think EMOTIONALLY instead of LOGICALLY- but then again, that may be the very definition of "Insane".

Either way, you do bring up an interesting point.

Diggidy, I have to make a comment on what you said. First of all most of my travel is to other developed first world nations with a standard of living similar to the US. Most of the women I have met abroad aren't poor desperate third world types. I have gotten laid in Australia as well as many wealthy Western European countries. First of all I know what most American women want, they want get as much out of a guy as they possibly can, even if you look like Brad Pitt, if you don't have money you're not going to get laid. I have slept with a lot of women, particularly with German and Scandinavian women, by the way the average wage in Germany is around $35 an hour including benefits, which is double that of the average US wage of $15 hourly, assuming that the average working German makes more in benefits than the average working American, you would think that German women would be more materialistic, NOT!!! German chics are some of the least materialistic women I have encountered, you should see the guys they hook up with on their summer vacations in the Mediterranean. American women are just not very enjoyable.

"Figuring out" American women takes a considerable amount of jumping through hoops and I'm no longer willing to be like a Jack Russell Terrier jumping through them in a three-ring circus to do so. I have LESS trouble in the RING, where I have to instantaneously "figure out" how, where and when to land a punch or a kick that will defeat my opponent. In my experiences here and abroad, American women lay so many obstacles in front of a guy that by the time he's gotten through them all, he then finds that the object of his quest is not as palatable as he had originally envisioned. All that bullshit that American women tell a guy about it "being worth it" (the prize they will bestow upon hapless guy at the end of the chase) it just so much crap. Who wants to eat a lot of shit sandwiches with the PROMISE (which is revokable at ANYTIME by HER) of receiving a prize that is "worth it" after the guy endures all the half-truths and the mind games? I yanked the label of "Sucker" off my forehead LONG AGO, and I hope my bretheren do the same.

Conversation between myself and foreign women (like CBGB, I also have gotten laid by women in thriving economies) is easy and natural; it comes without any defense mechanisms because one party isn't immediately raising their shields. Just my opinion...

And honestly I already know about the scams a lot of women in third world countries play on Western men. They marry you then when the green card arrives, they dump you and take half of your money. I already knew about this, that's why I avoid third world countries and women who look like they are in financial desperation. A lot of the women I have met in Europe, Australia, and parts of Canada, aren't starving and eager to use me as a meal ticket. I am not a wealthy person and don't pretend I am something else to get laid in these countries, I act like a regular person and get laid, therefore I know for sure that the women likes me for me, not anything that I may provide to her.

And look at it this way, there is a ton of violence in American movies and television shows. If anysexual in content is on an American TV show or movie, people make a big stink over it. In Europe and Australia, its different, people make a big stink about violence instead. There was a really violent videogame that came out in the US which was BANNED in Australia. When I watch pro Wrestling here in Australia, there is a warning message "Attention Parents, the following program depicts scenes of violent and abhorent behavior, this program may not be suitable for children." Then on the same channel there is a movie about a man and a woman trapped on an island running around naked and had an explicit scene with the lady spreading her legs and showing her vagina, the interesting thing is that no parental warning preceded that program.

I remember seeing one of these Green Card scams while living in the Republic of Panama. I was living in the capital city and a downstairs neighbor (a G.I. who was young, dumb and full of cum) was married to what appeared to me even at 11 years old to be a conniving barracuda who wanted nothing more than to get the card, suck the guy dry financially and bolt at the first opportunity. Granted, I didn't witness the entire family dynamic, but I saw one of the tragic outcomes: the daughter who desperately seemed to cling to MY family because we seemed happier than hers was. If I ever went the marriage route (yeah, and Dubya is gonna march front and center in New York's Gay Pride Parade arm in arm with Pat Robertson while both are in drag) I'd make DAMN SURE that she came from a family that promoted old world family values. Pat and Dubya, I hear there's a sale on patent leather pumps at Macy's! LOL

"American women like a guy who's capable of giving them some company that makes them feel good about themselves, and recognizes that they're not dependent. If you can be interested in them -- or many them think that you are -- and have a good time with them without sex it's easy to get them to take a flyer on a bedroom visit. But if all you can do is offer to buy them dinner, and you look like s***, don't expect to get a hottie."

OK Hot Dog, how about some detail. Pot bellied, hairy backed old guys need as much help as they can get. What's your secret - be specific? How long between meeting your hotties and getting them into bed? Total expenditure prior to first lay? Tell us about a typical date. Batting average - bed partners per attempts? Number of women boinked per year? Please share your expertise.

Well I am not certain why American Women are so screwed up but having spent time overseas most of the BS I have read here over the past few days doesn't add up. I have some theories though. First let’s check some math.

In China where I am living now there are 200,000,000 more men than women. With some of the same issues to pull women out of the attractive group as in America. Some are fat by Chinese standards, some are f'in ugly, and I mean U G L Y! Some have homely faces, and so on. But I have dated dozens of chinese girls from average looking to unbelievably hot.

The numbers are the same there are probably 10 men to one girl for the ratio but the women are different. They are not bitches; most don't even want to spend your money. As a matter of fact a lot of the women I have dated have gone out of their way to save money. They pay for meals and transportation. When living in San Francisco bay area I rarely had a meal cooked by a women I dated even LTR's, and forget them cleaning. Here they cook, they clean my apartment, they rub my back, and they respect me in every way. In America I always felt if I got sex two to five times a week I was doing great here I get it ten times or as many as I want a day. Some of the girls like sex more, but even then I think they are just more willing to do things that please their man. These girls honestly want to help their husband/boyfriends. It doesn't matter if you are a Chinese man, or a big fat white guy. They treat you the same. I have seen a number of Asian countries and feel pretty much the same about all of them. It is not because I am white, I am certainly not wealthy even by their standards, and I am overweight. The only advantage I have is I am American. Definitely not enough benefit to justify the number of honest loving relationships as I have had. It is very hard to not grab one of these girls run and get married they are so much better than American Women. Most of you men bitching or defending American women would not be able to control yourself. You would be married before then end of your first week in China, or Korea, or Vietnam, or Thailand, or certainly any of the poorer countries.

It has been my experience that most of these women are independent. They will disagree with you and argue with you, and even go do things on their own. But through all of that they are always respectful. They respectfully disagree, they respectfully argue. What makes them different? Why are they more respectful I can’t tell you? They just are. I think that maybe part of the issue is that American women feel they have to tell the man he is wrong. They have to prove they are superior to men in order to satisfy their ego’s. The Chinese girls I have dated don’t try to feel superior and certainly don’t feel inferior they simply acknowledge the differences.

I think that part of the issue with American women is that they spend too much time and effort trying to prove that they are independent, not subservient, not sex objects. These issues are bore out by Oprah, and such TV and magazines. They spend all the time saying if a man does so and so he is bad. But they rarely give balance to the equation and say what is good for women to do. They also don’t provide a neutral unbiased view to all the women who watch and read these programs. For instance one girl I dated had an issue with how much I used the word “I.” Because Dr Phil said that a man that uses “I” to much is a bad man. This was on the first date. When you are describing your self and what you have done. You naturally say I, such as I am an outdoors man, I have raced motorcycles, I have gone skydiving and so forth. I asked her how you would say the things you have done without using the word I. She couldn’t answer me, but it is a good example of how these women are brainwashed by the media into bashing men. Unfortunately men and women in America bring their children up believing in this artificial concept of prince charming and the girls refuse to accept anything less than a wealthy handsome man that fits her view of what prince charming is. Sure lots of girls marry and date poor guys or ugly guys. But they don’t respect them. They always keep looking for prince charming, and bashing the man for not being their ideal.

It is kinda like that movie Bowling for Columbine. He never really gets to the reason Americans are violent. He never is able to answer why some countries have more guns per capita and less violence. He just states that is the way America is. BTW on the gun issue I currently live in China where normal citizens cannot own a gun. Violent crime still happens, and every few weeks you see a news report of the Chinese police grabbing a gang that has all types of guns including full auto AK47s. So for those that think outlawing guns will prevent criminals from having guns you’re full of ‘well you know.’

My personal view is that America is simply screwed up by all the psycho babble from both sides. America has a number of factors that completely destroyed the entire concept of personal responsibility. First there is the legal system that allows an idiot to sue someone for their own stupidity as in the tobacco lawsuits, McD’s coffee lawsuits, and so forth. Then the media sensationalizes normal problems creating this whole victim mentality in society for example it’s not your fault you were beaten as a child that is why you did it, or you were oppressed because of your skin color, or you have a chemical imbalance that you can’t control, blah, blah, blah. Then the puritanical crack heads on both sides want to outlaw this or regulate that you can’t build that here there is a frog that will be destroyed, or you can’t sell sex it is immoral and will destroy the country. Reminds me of one of my favorite George Carlin jokes: ‘Selling is legal, f’ing is legal why isn’t selling f’ing legal?!’ How can a good woman come out of such a screwed up mess!?

So all you guys in the US that want to find a girl that will make you hard every day and treat you nice and take care of you. The kind of girl that you feel happy that you do extra things for and help her, you should come to Asia. Although stay away from the islands like the Philippines or Indonesia, the women are crazy on average. They just might stab you with a knife. (Really I am not joking about the islands, I have several friends that have gotten into trouble with wives from these places.)

Wicked SH,

Well said! You had me baffled at first when you said that some things don't add up, only to eloquently detail your theory on why American Women are so fucked up. I had to really scratch my chin (and agree with) and think about when you said that they need to prove a man wrong and the other related stuff you said. Forget an unbiased, balanced view coming from them. Admittedly, like a dumbass, when I was little, I bought into the Prince Charming crap until I saw that many of the WOMEN were the frogs waiting to be kissed. (If I got my fairy tales mixed up, sorry, all!) After banging my head against the wall for so many years and finally seeing the situation for what it really IS, I just said "Fuck it" regarding American Women. I was thinking that maybe Asian women are the way they are because in Asian societies, they are taught to think of the group or the community FIRST before themselves. If I'm wrong, feel free to smite my erroneous thinking!

Hot Diggid Dog,

I think Sinanju Master pretty much summed it all up in explaining why we prefer chasing foreign skirts. I, like S.M., am also tired of jumping through hoops and "eating shit sandwiches". It seems that when a man tries to do it the "right" way ("just be yourself", etc.) the ladies just play him for a sucker. I'm simply tired of dealing with the neurotic bullshit.

And judging from the numerous posts in this forum it seems that I'm not alone.

Wicked SH:

Thanks for the words of wisdom. An extraordinary post.

In South America, there are more women than men, this is due to a variety of factors, but South American women are on average more beautiful and friendly than Anglo-European American women. Even the South American women in the US as one poster mentioned are a lot nicer than local US women. Honestly, if you spent one hour on Copacabana beach in Rio De Janeiro, no pipsqueak justification for the general behavior and attitude of American women can hold water, because in less than one hour you will see more gorgeous women than you do in one month in any big cosmopolitan city in the US. I just arrived in Rio for a month long summer vacation and this place is FUCKING AMAZING.

I've stated this before here: The U.S. is only good for financial gain-college, jobs, etc. For everything else get the fuck out of here!! I just want to add that for me though American women are just so incredibly boring; so predictable!! I think right now that is one of my biggest complaints about the dating scene where I live (Atlanta). I've gotten to the point where just normal interaction with foreign women satifies me (I don't have to have sex with them) because they are so unpredictable I don't know what they are going to do or say and that is one reason I love them so much!!!!

CBGB:

I couldn't agree more! I was in Rio last year for Carnaval (my posts lurk somewhere around the site) and within six hours of landing, I had my tongue down a model's throat.

Now I'm no Adonis by any stretch of the imagination, but just to be able to interact immediately with carefree, intelligent, SEXY women like that still has me in shock! :-)

Currently I live in Indianapolis (or Indianoplace as everyone else in the US calls it). Last night I was at one of my weekly watering holes, and two beauty school candidates parked their asses right next to me. As soon as they launched into their mindless girl's-night-out prattle, two epiphenies came to light:

* I felt absolutely no desire to engage them in conversation.

* I felt I had finally graduated from American women.

I gotta get my butt back to Brazil again, and soon! Have a great time there, CBGB.

-- L

Hardbarg,

For conventional dating, typically three dates. I hardly ever spend over $200 on those three dates. If I do blow more money on one date than I like to, I don't hide the fact that the bucks come dear. Often by the third date, she offers to pay. (Yes, you have to know how to handle the conversation. No, it's not a turnoff for an American woman, at least if she's not trying to drain you cash-wise. Of course, I don't date women who can't afford it, or who expect to be taken care of.)

While in the US extracurricular activities are governed by opportunity. I nail about a half-dozed different women a year, and don't keep anything going too long so as not to create suspicion. I think about a month is ideal, maybe three on the outside.

I also keep an eye out for situations that make things easy. I don't get in the shortest checkout lines, I get in one behind a cutie. I strike up conversations in coffee shops. I'm not pushy. I ask them about themselves. I create conversations that let them invite themselves to get in touch with me. When that happens, I slip them a business card (I work at home). I invite them to visit my operation and look at my work. When they show up, I show them around and let them do a few easy things. I find what's good in their approach and compliment them, give them a chance to do some more.

Last week I got a 28 yr. old (v. good bod, above avg. face) to visit, got her into the workshop and nailed her amid the tools on my workbench. She's married, so discretion is important. She knows she has it with me. I'm nearly twice her age, and it would have been tough for me to get her when I was the 'right' age for her.

The key thing about American women is that they live in America. They already have that, you can't offer it to them. They have access to good jobs, you can't buy a hottie unless you've really got gobs of money. If you're good looking, young, and in shape, you can do all right with very little cash. If you're not good looking or young, or in shape, you've got to be a little smarter. But American women don't lose their sex drive just because they live here. Appeal to it and you can do just fine.

I just re-read my post. I meant to also mention that not all american woman are screwed up, just most of them. Last night I was in a bar here in shanghai that was full of american girls and guys. Like the bars in the us the ratio was all screwed up with two guys for every girl. A few chinese girls, but they were all more westernized since they spoke english.

Like a lot of bars I have been in most of the guys were better looking than me and probably more wealthy. I tried to chat with a few girls, but was blown off almost immediately. I don't really care if a girl isn't interested in me. But you can tell someone so without being mean or giving a big attitude like it cost her a lot of money to open her mouth. The only girl that was even nice to me was a chinese girl that worked for the bar.

But what really gets me when I think back about my experiences in the US, and here is that in the US girls give you the attitude and wont even chat for a few seconds to see if you might have something interesting to say. They make this decision based on a quick glance. They don't even spend a second trying to hear what you might say. They shut you down and nothing you can do will change their minds. I used to get arround this by making certain I showed off my money. That is an expensive way to get attention. But it is what us ordinary guys with access to money have to do. I pity the normal guy that doesn't have cash.

In contrast most of the asian girls I have met in bars are polite. Alot of times they are not interested, but they respectufully and politely say so. They don't get bitchy and mean. Even if they are not interested they mostly take a few seconds to hear what you have to say. I see them treat the chinese guys the same way too so it isn't simply that I am white.

I have never really understood the divergance of what american girls say and do. They all say they want a guy who can talk with them and listen. But when you try to chat unless you are rich and or handsome they won't give you a chance. They say no guys ever try, but go to any bar and watch how many guys go out every weekend and try only to get shot down before he has said more than hello.

My thoughts for today. - Good luck in your hunts gents. Wicked

Here is a question. How many guys are married on here, and cannot wait until the kids get older to be single again. When I do, I will be moving to one of the "good" places like Thailand or Brazil. Hopefully these american women, who in all actuality are sucking the life out of us, won't affect these places much. Then and only then, I will be able to fully be a monger.

Cheers to the future!

Smut Villain,

I don't think you're alone, and maybe American women are tougher to deal with than poor third-world women. And, like American men, American women are often overweight to the point that the thought of sex is just labor, or poorly groomed to where they don't interest you.

There are still plenty of do-able American women, though, and you don't have to spend a bundle or be 25 and a bodybuilder yourself to get them in the sack. It works for me. That's all I'm saying. And when I go overseas, I find my cash or my nationality can buy lots of cooze, just like it can for you. But anyone who has dated extensively in Brasil or Honduras or Italy as I have can tell you women are equally crazy to American women in all those countries, if not more so.

American women seem quite nice if you only pick them up for one-nighters, just like foreign women. It's over the long haul that the madness comes out.

Diggidy,

"a half-dozen different women a year", now thats funny, you had me going there for a minute, almost made a believer. Down in my neck of the woods if I don't f.....k 6 different girls in a month I'm in a bad slump.
Hell when I use to live in the states on occasions I could bang 5-6 girls in a month, but this was a big college town in my younger years.

Hot Dog:

I notice you didn't answer about batting average.

ba = no. of boinked women/total attempts

One comment I'd like to say about American women: some of them contradict themselves so much it isn't even funny. God forbid a woman admits to being wrong about ANYTHING! From what I have been reading thanks to the nomarriage dot com site, more and more stuff about the average women is being proven to be true!

MP

Hi all,

First time poster, moderately-long-time lurker. I sought membership in WSG to get tactical intel on mongering Milwaukee, and it has certainly fulfilled that mission... and at the same time the attitudes made my eyes pop out like an object of Lefty's back-door desire (sorry, inside joke for Milwaukeeans and Lefty lovers). Here is a place where a guy can open those misogynistic (or, if you prefer, pro-male) floodgates without getting slapped or fired. So when I stumbled across this tucked-away forum for us to let loose our true opinions on American Women, I had to dig in.

I'm probably stating the obvious by saying the difference between the local boards and this one is like a carpentry apprenticeship and a judge clerkship. The local boards focus (or SHOULD focus) on specific tools to get the job done. But this board is largely subjective, doesn't really yield any tangible results except rigorous discourse. I would actually be prouder to contribute a useful nugget of info to the local board, but it would be like a toddler with a Playskool toolbench teaching a bunch of master craftsmen.

So I finally decided to throw you all my thoughts (with probable value of less than or equal to $0.02), partly because I selected my member name DemandCurve based on that stubborn economic function. I haven't had many opportunities to "intersect" with the supply curve ladies yet. But with your help and my "vitamin Vs" I'm rising. So it seems everyone agrees, in America for whatever reason there is more demand for pussy than dick. Which is why gay men are on easy street (pun intended) - but only in terms of BA (hardbarg's calculation of boinks/attempts). In every other way, they're quite screwed. Disease, drug addiction, attacks on them.

So I for one am glad that it's not that easy to bag an American woman. Civilian or SW. We men get off on the thrill of the hunt. And I actually think American women have been better in the past 5 years or so... the affect of Cosmo, Sex in the City, all these sort of affirmative action urgings for them to be like men. Score like men, fuck 'm, forget 'm. SO I've actually found it easier to bag a cleaner, smarter woman in clubs and grocery stores and the dog park, all those cliche places you see on Sex in the City where women are told it's OK to pick up a guy and take him home - it's liberated.

Unfortunately for women, they are not wired that way... they want to nest, we want to spread the seed, blah blah. So maybe all this bitchiness we're seeing lately is fallout from those failed attempts to fuck like men. Now they want to bag a husband. Someone brought up a Christian self-help type book that said women should submit to their husbands, sexually and elsewhere... I think women are willing to sacrifice that famed "independence" for stability. Although I disagree with that "Christian" philosophy - it is like slavery and encourages all kinds of problems. Like infidelity in married women, which is on the rise.

BUT (and in closing!) I think women vary from region to region - people have already pointed out at lenght the difference between Western and non-Western women. Even within the U.S. there are huge gaps - supply and demand. In Alaska, women can have their pick. In New York or San Fran, where the gay male pop. is so high, it has become more of a men's market. Whether men are the buyers or sellers in normal non-mongering situations, who's to say? I definitely feel like part of the demand for SWs, but strangely part of the supply for civilians (I'm 26, college degree, job, in shape, whatever). I find it a turn off when women fawn over me, like some of you guys seem to like it - make me meals, hang on my every word, basically suck up to me. It's that thrill of the hunt that gets me in the car at night. And that male sense of competition! You guys make it look so easy!

OK, that's more than $0.02, thank you for letting me share your forum. Feedback is welcome, of course.

Demand Curve,

your name suggests you're a sexual economist at heart! LOL

I didn't agree 100% with what you said, but a lot of it made sense. MY beef is mostly that in the past, I treated American women with respect, listened to what they had to say (I mean actually LISTENED instead of instantaneously tuning them out while thinking: "I wonder if they're real?") and didn't treat them like I was a sabre-toothed tiger eyeing an unsuspecting gazelle on a grassy prehistoric plain. What did I get for my efforts? LOTS of disinterested chicks at best and double-speaking manipulative b****es at worst. I USED to wanna find a chick, fall in love, settle down and get married. After doing a LOT of analysis and considering what I'd be getting myself into, I say FUCK THAT! Now, I'm just out to nail a chick and like a vampire, escape before the light of dawn. I guess I'm saying that I haven't stopped HUNTING, but the target has changed. Find 'em, Fuck 'em, FORGET 'em!

To humorously illustrate my point, a coworker told me about some scribbling on a restroom wall on the Jersey Turnpike. This shit should be FRAMED like the Constitution! It said: "I'm tired of fucking the same woman EVERY DAY". Welcome to the wonderful institution of marriage, guys!

Hardbarg,

Batting average is hard to compute - what constitutes a 'try'?
If you mean going as far as starting to chat a woman up, really poor. If you mean asking her to have a cup of coffee and a chocolate torte so we can continue a conversation, much higher.
If you mean after the cuppa joe and a second (more traditional)
date, about 2/3.

Panama Jack,

If you can get that much without paying, you're the master and I want to study with you ... if you are talking about paying for it, and/or living in a city with no live-in or wedded bliss, well, that's not difficult.

I'm just an ordinary guy who likes to undress pretty women and who doesn't have the economic wherewithall or youth or good looks to make it as easy as it once was. I've found a way that works -- Not acting like I'm hunting while I'm hunting, talking while looking in a girls eyes and not at her tits, and keeping her on the side for a few months until I feel the excitement starting to fade.

I just got back from an extended weekend with a very hot lady,
she took me to her husband's cabin on a small lake -- screwing in the hammock, naked swims at dawn, and one try in a canoe (sort of a gag -- no, it doesn't really work well, and we didn't try standing up). We're in our third month and we're not cooling yet, and there's no sign of bitchiness or dullness or insanity.

But I'm not the one who'se married to her.

Diggidy,

Its not that hard to screw 6 girls a month when you live in Panama, and you travel to colombia often, and yes for free especially if you speak the language and know the culture.

I firmly believe the problem with American Women is that there is too much religion in the US. There is a strong relationship between the stength of religion in a country and and how easy for get laid.

Try to get laid in religious , consertvative countries in the Middle East. Or compare Catholic Ireland with more secular Britain. The US is a religious country founded by puritans and little has changed up to now.

I realise this a site dedicated to the hobby but I think it is important point to make in this forum.

Peace

Chorfa1

I don't know if I totally agree with that, since I occasionally read the SA boards and guys seem to making out like bandits there. South America is mostly Roman Catholic and we all know how much of a stranglehold religion has on everyday life with the middle class and the poor at the very least. I think market forces (a chica's everyday needs to live and a mongerer's carnal needs) will win out over religion most of the time. Faith doesn't fill a grumbling stomach nor does it often provide immediate rewards after providing for a mongerer. Any young chick in SA who sees the bright lights and other enticements of the big city is gonna choose THAT over faith when you get down to it.

OTOH American Women are given everything, expect the world, and give almost NOTHING back. I'll be GOD-DAMNED if I ever take any shit off some American barracuda whose attitude is: "What can you do for ME? YOUR needs (ANY type of reciprocation) are irrelevant".

Shit I live in South America (Argentina) and NO ONE here takes religion seriously, as opposed to in México and Central America. Here they say you go to church to get "married and buried." Yes, the church has political influence but among the rank and file it does not affect sexual behavior very much. Trust me.

Well there you have it guys... I stand corrected

I can't really add that much as far as religion & the attitude of american women is concerned, but from my experiences in Central America I'd say that Chrofa's point has it's merits. For example, in Guatemala and it's neighbouring countries you find a quite strong divide between catholics and protestants, the latter being a growing movement mainly influenced by various NA sects. And while the Catholics there are generally thought to be the more easy-going, modern, don't-take-the-church-too-serious people, many of the protestants are firm believers with a more religious lifestyle. I guess that's due to the fact that they are just new to their faith after converting from the traditional catholic church.

So, Chorfa if the behaviour of SA / CA protestants translates to that of NA mainstream-protestants it would seem like you're getting it exactly right; Shianju, you just overestimated the influence of catholicism in modern SA / CA societies, and Dickhead, what you say about CA is definitely true for the protestants there, but not (any more) for Catholics.

I'd have to agree somewhat with Chorfa1. To borrow a quote from the movie "EuroTrip" (stupid movie, but there are a couple of shots of cute topless girls).

"America was founded by prudes who left Europe because there was too much weird sex going on there."

Or something like that.

I'm no expert on comparative religion, but one thing that the Catholics have going for them is confession - basically do whatever you want, go to confession and do your penance and you start over with a clean slate. Protestants (especially southern baptists) are stuck with a permanent tabulation of sins and good deeds that get tallied up on judgemnent day - if the sin side out-weighs the good deed side, your piggies are gonna get hot. No forgiveness where protestants are concerned.

My experiences in Brasil, which is primarily Catholic are essentially like Dickhead says "you go to church to get "married and buried." ". However, the garotas were all very respectful of the church & especially the pope - they just don't see why they need to go to mass every week. If they ever feel guilty about the way they've been living their life (very rare), they just go to confession, say a few "hail mary's" and they are transformed into a guilt-free garota de programma and are back in the game before you missed them.

CW

Hey guys,

I've been noticing something and wonder if anyone out there will agree with me.

Most of us stand united on the fact that American women, as a whole, aren't that great. Many posters say the same thing about Canadian women, English women and western women in general. I think I see a trend here. I call it local guys and local girls.

Think about it. As a local guy in your own town, the girls are kind of boring and unattractive. What's worse, they look at you the same way. The only way to get one interested is to be really handsome, have lot's of cash or some kind of super magnetic personality. The funny part is that if you were that great, you wouldn't be interested in them anyways.

So, you take a trip. and all of a sudden beautiful women are everywhere! As is that wasn't good enough, many of these girls are giving you the eye. You're the star of the show, chatting with the hottest babes wherever you go. All the while thinking about how much better these women are than the ones back home.

In some respects this is completely correct. But think about it. How would the local guys think about these girls? What a bunch of b**ches! There they go again, chasing after every guy with some cash who will take them out and spend money on them. Starting to sound familiar?

Women are women no matter where you go. They all want the same thing. That is to get the best deal they can, for themselves. The reason that foreign women seem somehow to be "better" is because we look better to them. We come from somewhere else so that makes us more ecxiting and different. We also tend to have a lot more money than the local guys (depending on which country).

If any American (or western) women perceives you to be different/special and that you have way more money, she'll be interested. Just look at rich and famous guys like Donald Trump or Jack Nicholson. They still score with the hottest young babes and the women don't seem to mind the 30 year age gap. Just like all those great gals in Thailand, Brazil, Phillipines etc. That's the reason why we do so well with women in foreign countries. When we go there, in some respects we have the same movie star qualities of being wealthy and interesting.

I'm not trying to defend American/western women. I'm just saying that women pretty much are the same wherever you go if you are looking at things from the perspective of a local guy.

One last point. Since the girls in these other countries DO look at us that way, we'd be crazy not to go there and take full advantage!!

Rock