American Women

miller2k, don't flatter yourself. You didn't touch a nerve, you merely exasparate me. JUST when I thought that you had an understanding you go and fuck it up. You don't surprise me though. I DID allow past experiences (and the people involved) to "control" me, but the ongoing self-reflection I've been doing changed that. I'll STILL keep on my toes and weed out the lumps of coal, which are many, but on the other side of the coin, I'll lighten up and not keep up my shields 24/7. Low self-esteem? Nope. I KNOW what the hell I have to offer and you can bet yer ass it's worth its weight in Platinum.

USBabe, I can understand your reluctance to provide yer e-mail address, so, I'll do the honors from my end FIRST. Starlit1003sky@yahoo.com. Should you choose to send a response, a recap of the postings (yours and mine) will be forthcoming and an explanation of current things will be provided. Perhaps, you may be a bit surprised, maybe not.

CBGB, toss caution to the wind and GO FOR IT! When you look back on your life, if you have any regrets, regret the things you DID, instead of the things you never had the courage to do.

nofatso, I like your postings and I don't care WHAT the others say. If a man has an opinion, he shouldn't waffle on it unless he is proven utterly wrong.

I've tarried on this board for too long now. My purpose has been served and I actually got my point across to a lot of intelligent people (well save for one) who saw my point although they may not have wholeheartedly agreed 100% with my assessment.

So, USBabe, nofatso, Dickhead and CBGB, take care all, and I hope to bring to fruition my travel plans so I can share some stories.

PS
miller2k, you may even get YOUR wishes granted.... after all, Dorothy, the Tin Man, and the Cowardly Lion got THEIRS!

Hi Guys,

Could we keep the content of this area to "American Women" per se??? Some of you beyond macho characters are getting carried away and are way off the intended topic.

It's time to stop "banging" your dicks on your laptops everytime someone says something which offends your beyond macho male egos.

USBabe,
I was the only woman posting in this section for a long time on the old forum, (and I'm not even an American woman! LOL), and found after a while that being the only female voice in a topic like this can leave you open to some guys dumping ALL of their frustrations and anger towards women directly at YOUR doorstep. I wanted to say that I think you are doing a fantastic job holding your own in this debate. I was hoping for a long time that an American woman would actually join this thread, mainly because whenever I said something, people tended to think "Well yes, but you are Australian...women are different here". I don't think they are. You can ask any Australian male what he thinks of Australian women, and you will get the exact same responses as are given in this forum.

Men and women simply don't understand each other, and in many cases I think they don't even want to! I think often the differences between the sexes...which I don't personally believe amounts to much at all mind you...are blamed, rather than accepting that relationships fail because of our own mistakes and flaws. Finding that I was not compatible with one man, or even a succession of different men, does not mean that "all men are bastards". It means that I have yet to find the man that has all the qualities that I am looking for. Does that make me fussy? Probably. But does that mean I automatically despise every man out there who doesn't conform to my "standards"? Of course not.

I have mentioned many times (mainly in the Morality section), that my time as a sex worker gave me insights into the male psyche that changed my perceptions of men forever. The indepth conversations and the raw "expressions of self" that come from men in a commercial sex setting...aided by the anonymity...showed me that men suffer from the same insecurities, fears and desires as women do. They asked me questions about my feelings and insecurities as a woman, and showed genuine interest in the responses. Why can't that happen in the "real world". Why is it that when strangers handed me money, they were more open and honest than any prospective boyfriends were? We are all (both men and women) playing too many mind games in relationships...both trying to remain in control and both guarding against getting hurt. I think we would all benefit greatly from open conversations with each other about who we are and what we want from a relationship. Sounds corny I know...but how are we supposed to measure up to each others standards, when we have no idea what those standards are?

For example, the woman who won't "put out" on the first date. You may be thinking that she is a frigid cow or that she isn't attracted to you...but she may actually be very interested in a relationship with you, and trying not to give the impression that she is a sl*t! If you want sex with no commitment, tell her. She may be perfectly happy to do it on the first date if she knows that's what you want. If you want a relationship...tell her what that means to you. She can't read your mind.

USBabe...welcome to the WSG. I have agreed with everything you have said so far, in fact you seem to be a very similar woman to myself (and don't take that as an insult, seeing as I said I used to be a sex worker! LOL). Keep up the good work honey...the American woman needs you! :)

PS..Miller2k,
As always, everything you have said so far has brought a smile to my face. You have always been one of the most intelligent, compassionate and understanding men who post in this forum, and from your attitude it is easy to see why you are THE HAPPIEST MAN ALIVE. More power to you honey...the world (or should I say, the female population) needs more men like you.

Ok, you can all flame me and call me a rabid feminazi now... lol

I believe that all the women (and all the men) around the world have a common pattern.
American women for the majority of their qualities (and defects) are no different than any other woman in the rest of the western-culture globe.

Having said this, I think the purpose of this entire forum is the discussion on what makes them different (better or worse).

I am not trying to make an easy point saying that girls in the US as an average weigh 40 lb more than their European counterparts.
I am talking about class. This is what a man really likes in a woman. More than beauty. And this is what, I feel, women here lack. I am not talking about Armani clothing. I am talking about a natural self-consciousness that makes a woman leader, and not a follower in a relationship.

RN: We all tend to idealize "the perfect counterpart" that is going to live the rest of our life happily with us. Eventually life and love are a compromise between the idea of what is perfect and what is available out there. A relationship is a mutual acceptance of the way we are.

M2K: I admire you (as I had opportunities to read some of your other posts in the WSG) for the choices you made in your life. Of course it is also easier to live a non-materialistic life in Mexico than it would be to do the same in the US. Bottom line is that it's easier to live like a Mexican in Mexico than like a Mexican in the US. That would be an accomplishment.

Dear RN, what a very sweet welcome you gave me! Thank you! I haven't read any other forums here, so I hope you'll forgive me when I did a double-take upon reading that you're a sex worker. This is a very personal question, and if you feel comfortable answering, I'd really appreciate it (and if you don't, I understand and hope that you aren't offended). How did you become a sex worker? I mean, was it a conscious choice or the best of your options at that time? In no way am I trying to insult you, but the concept is completely foreign to me.

You said, "Why can't that happen in the "real world". Why is it that when strangers handed me money, they were more open and honest than any prospective boyfriends were?"

Here's just a guess. In a romantic relationship, feelings are vulnerable. In a "business" sexual relationship, it is different. What did they have to lose by opening up to you? Things are much more cut and dry. You may or may not see the person again. He knows that you are with other people, so the idea of "cheating" really doesn't apply. That type of situation is just very clear, whereas in love, usually nothing is clear!

I wanted to share an article that I think is absolutely brilliant. It's entitled "How to Argue," by Michael Crichton and first appeared in "Playboy magazine" in 1991. Too often when you argue (especially with a woman), a guy can come off as either wimpy or a complete jerk. This tells you how to WIN and keep your dignity and self-respect unharmed. It's a little bit long, but I think every word is worth reading.

http://www.crichton.org/howtoargue2.shtml

USBabe, you mention the term sex worker as if its a horrible connotation, or a low class person's occupation. In Europe, its a natural thing, by the way, there are just as many male prostitutes in Europe as there are female. Its just only in the United States where prostitution, in the view of the Christian right is considered morally repugnant, and on the other hand, the feminist left in the US feels thats its an exploitation of women. One of the things I noticed about prostitution in Europe is that more affluent and educated women take part in it. Why is this so? Because for one thing, sex is not evil, watch a television program or look at an advertisement, the European mass media is more sexually provacative than its American counterpart. American advertising and media focuses on being "warm and fuzzy" or humorous whereas European advertising is more sexual.
I found this to be true in South America as well. The second thing is legality, its perfectly legal to engage in this activity and there is no real legal stigma attached to it. Third is the issue of money, part time jobs are more rare in Europe than they are in the US, and therefore prostitution is a source of part time income. Most women in Europe work in this profession as a part time occupation. In fact a woman I met while in Paris, was a medical student, who happened to moonlight as an escort.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CBGBConnisur
[i]USBabe, you mention the term sex worker as if its a horrible connotation, or a low class person's occupation.[/i][/QUOTE]

What words did I use to give you that impression? I used the word "sex worker" because that's what RN used.

I don't recall making any judgmental statements about RN at all. I'm completely unfamiliar with the subject, hence my questions.

"The indepth conversations and the raw "expressions of self"that come from men in a commercial sex setting...aided by the anonymity...Why is it that when strangers handed me money, they were more open and honest than any prospective boyfriends were? We are all (both men and women) playing too many mind games in relationships..."

AMEN, RN!!!! Men often feel more comfortable with "professional" women because there is a very simple, money for affection, exchange. Many men, even in this day and age, still have a problem with the complexities of a relationship.Many men want what they want and often have little regard as to how they get it
or who they have to hurt to get what they want. Blame part of this on culture and how we were raised. Men are taught to be goal oriented and we perceive everything as a win/lose situation. We want to get laid, so we engage in a head game to get what we want. Of course, many women play the same game, but with
a different objective. Some men (well-represented by many who post in this section) are emotional cripples, borderline socio-paths. They are buried in negativity and long ago lost the spark of life that seperates men from cavemen. These men would be paralyzed by the prospect of opening up their hearts and
letting the world see what they are made of (and, in many cases, they would be well within reason to be afraid). So they go through life pissing and moaning about how the world has let them down. Meanwhile, they grow darker and darker
inside. So dark that they lose any semblance of normal emotional stability. But if they go to a sex-worker, the deal is simple: Money for physical affection. They are so relieved at the simplicity of the transaction that they let their guard down and open up. Why? This is all based on the fact that this type of man has low self-esteem and would feel less humiliated by looking foolish in front of a stranger than a person they know. If they only realized that this intimacy is the secret to being succesful in relationships... Men that can master the skill of being honest have the most success...If you're an emotional cripple, admit it and you
soon won't be...

by the way, thanks for the kind words RN...I've secretly enjoyed your posts for along time as a lurker in other sections...


Bye Bye, Sin...

"I've tarried on this board for too long now. My purpose has been served"

Sin...if that purpose was to come off as a complete *******...BRAVO, Well Done...I can appreciate a man who sets realistic goals for himself and meets them....

So long, US Babe...good to see that the whackos in here didn't scare you off.

Now, now, Miller2k, that's a pretty broad brush you're painting with! While I agree with a lot of what you've said both here and elsewhere, portraying large portions of guys who use and open up to sex workers as emotional cripples is a bit much. Let's face it -- it's easier to open up to strangers in general, because there's a basic level of safe anonymity there. That's true whether it happens in this scenario, or whether it's my mother telling her emotional life story to a stranger on a bus or plane, or a customer pouring out their heart to a shoe salesperson. It's the very distance that adds a degree of safety.

I agree with you that honest expression of emotion is the key to a successful relationship, but I don't agree that emotive confessions to strangers, whether it be after the throes of business-based sexual activity or not, is in any way an indication of emotional capability or stability. (And in real life, it takes two to make that honesty process work well, also.)

Here's two other theories in response to RN's query that can be tried on for size:

1. After and around the process of sexual activity, which is an expression of physical intimacy, extending the equation to emotional intimacy isn't a large stretch, especially since at that point we've all got lots of endorphines running though our systems and are thereby literally often feeling no pain. Combine that with the safety of the stranger, as mentioned above, and plenty of people will be willing to open up, if only as a way of extending the moment as the physical afterglow fades...

2. The sex worker, regardless of all the other potentially negative perceptions that might float around, is definitely viewed as a professional in the field of intimate relations, and thereby given credence as one who might provide insight. When I go to a physician, I can only get the best treatment if I reveal everything of relevance. The same equation may well also be at work here.

Again, I don't necessarily disagree with your take on things; it just seems to me to be a rather universally negative rendering. Admittedly, some threads of conversation here can make one think that lots of those involved are mysoginistic rage-a-holics, but I think that's as big a mistake as the one-size-fits-all surface that often comes through about women in these posts. The truth is almost invariably more complex.

CBGB...It is not 100% accurate to say that in Europe prostitutes do not live at the margin of the society. They are, especially the ones on the street. The medicine student you are mentioning might exist but it is not representative of the large majority of prostitutes.
I agree with you on the sex-reference used in the media here vs. Europe. I believe both situations are, in reality, 2 extremes. Here there is a false puritanism, in Europe sex is used to the excess where a naked woman is put in a commercial advertising cheese.
In real life, here you risk a law suit if you make a compliment to a co-worker, in Europe (or South America) you can easily find situations where the boss asks his secretary to wear a mini-skirt at work.
Probably the right balance is represented by a few countries. The Scandinavian countries or Holland are the ones that come to my mind.

Answering to the previous posts: are you sure you can easily categorize people visiting prostitutes? I think that behind the same actions there are many different reasons and backgrounds. Not sure that they are all looking for the same thing. Actually maybe sex is not the prime reason for a vast majority.

Maybe an interesting discussion could be generated by an honest admission by us. I think most of has have or had been with prostitutes. What led or is leading us to do that?

For RN: while working did you ever think of one of your clients as a potential partner for your life. I know it is kind of a "Pretty Woman" situation but I am just curious to know if you had ever thought of imagining some of you private life coming out of your professional one.

Stranger99, I'm not too sure which workplace you were refering to where someone can be sued, did you mean the USA or did you mean Europe? Definitely in America, if a male worker gives any reference to a woman's physical appearance or sexuality, he can expect to lose his job or be sued, or both. I don't know about bosses in Europe asking such things of their female colleagues while I was working there. There is a strong feminist movement in Europe, however European feminists differ from their American counterparts in that they still enjoy men. That medical student wasn't the only case, there are many women who are pursuing education who work in this profession. In addition its not too uncommon to find men who offer sexual services, though in most cases these men offer their services to other men (homosexuals), in very few cases they are offered to heterosexual women. Case in point is Amsterdam, where 95 percent of services are offered to heterosexual and homosexual men.

I also agree with you Stranger99, that prostitution isn't exactly a high level profession but in most European countries it doesn't relegate the prostitute to the fringe of society. There are many people who do it for a while when they are young but it doesn

USBabe, I just thought reading between the lines when you mention 'sex worker' that it was something bizarre to you thats why I thought it to be a derogatory term.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by stranger99 [i] I think most of has have or had been with prostitutes. What led or is leading us to do that? [/i][/QUOTE]

Well, I've been with prostitutes (of course), and what led ME to do that is I needed some pussy and either wasn't dating anyone right then or was in a foreign country where I didn't know anyone, and didn't feel like performing the delicate emotional surgery necessary to pick up a non-prostitute and cajole her into the sack. Pretty simple.

But I bet some other guys have gone to prostitutes to get some specific service they couldn't get "at home." Since I'm a complete dickhead, I don't even bother getting into a relationship with a gal who won't give me BOTH of the only two services I absolutely require, which are fuck and suck. Pretty basic.

RN (and Miller2K):

As to men sharing intimite stuff with sex workers. I think the reason is twofold. Firstly, there is the ... airplane effect (I don't know what else to call it). Two strangers on an airplane (or bus or whatever) meet and share their intimate details of their lives, and then go their own ways. It is safe to do because they know it won't ... leak into the rest of thier lives (which can't be said about disclosure to anyone you relate with regularly).

As to people being more direct and saying what they want in relationships. Hm. I know what I'm going to say doesn't *directly* address your comment, but it seems appropriate none the less.

I think the games we play in relationships have a useful purpose. To take the example you meantioned (about the woman not wanting to be seen the slutt) ... I suspect that with most women in that situation, they would much prefer that it happened "naturally", and that words to that effect are not exchanged.

In another sense, let us assume an aquaintance approached you and said he *really* liked you, found you magnetic, and would dearly like to enter a long-term relationship with you. He is definitely being up-front and honest. However he short-circuits some of the more "normal" dating rituals which serve a purpose. I suspect that, while you would feel flattered, you also wouldn't feel as comfortable as you would if he had invited you to go to some musical event.

His forthrightness puts the burden on you to respond when (in all likelyhood) you don't feel similarly. While this probably works fine with more centered women (who might suggest a musical event...), with many women I suspect his approach would fail miserably.

Just my thoughts.

Smiles, best wishes, and it's been a long times,
David

I'm one of the few who hasn't been with a prostitute.


Stranger99,

"A relationship is a mutual acceptance of the way we are." -- an ... interesting, and in many ways, beautiful thought.


USbabe,

I'll throw in a welcome (even an offical one if you like). I have to admitt that I don't remember if I have of yet. But yes, it is very nice to have a bit more parity in the discussion.


Miller2K,

I'll chime in. (Also, let me note, that I am almost envious that your THE HAPPIEST MAN ALIVE -- *smiles* such positivity.).