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  1. #8275

    Which ones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xpartan  [View Original Post]
    You're right, it's complicated.

    But as a simple guy, what's good for Umberto Eco is good for me. I've found 13 matching fascist features (out of 14) in modern Russia and at least 11 in the personality of Donald Trump. Can't go wrong IMHO.

    https://www.openculture.com/2016/11/...f-fascism.html

    I personally hate well-intentioned idiots as much as evil bigots.

    Just don't vote. I know it's not ideal, but nothing is. It's dishonest for a centrist to go either way.
    I'm interested in your opinion of which 3 of the 14 you don't ascribe to the Orange Buffoon.

  2. #8274

    How much freedom?

    Quote Originally Posted by JustTK  [View Original Post]
    Right, right, right! Haha.

    Yes, but you could make any other comparison that you wish to make. Why is demogrpahic or wealth, any better a comparison to many other factors you could choose? Why not compare the country with one that the same levels of obesity. Or same levels of vaccine hesitancy. Or same lack of publci health care?

    But regardless, ypu are choosing to argue about smthg that is totally tangential to my post. Which was how much freedom are you prepared to give up to save lives?
    Ahhh, yes. The standard MAGA question, isn't it? Because Republicans like to frame everything as "freedom related" as opposed to "responsibility related".

    Not "How much are you willing to do to protect everybody else"? The Republican answer would be I am willing to do nothing.

    Not "What are you willing to do to prevent the healthcare system from breaking"? (The Republican answer would be I am willing to do nothing. ).

    How about this? Your favorite watering hole has a "No shirt. No shoes. No Service." policy. When a shoeless, and shirtless person enters, do you 1. Beat the crap out of him? Or 2. Toss him out on his ear? Or 3. Offer to buy him a drink? You, of course, can't see the parallels but that's what makes you a good Republican. But don't worry because Tucker "Even my lawyer argued that nobody in their right mind should believe anything I say" Carlson doesn't get it either.

  3. #8273

    How timely

    We could also argue who is literate and who is not.

    Hahaha.

    https://www.foxnews.com/media/white-...uciating-watch

  4. #8272
    Quote Originally Posted by Paulie97  [View Original Post]
    But then it comes down to how you define "Fascist. " That's actually fairly complicated, with a historical context stretching back to the post WW I era.
    You're right, it's complicated.

    But as a simple guy, what's good for Umberto Eco is good for me. I've found 13 matching fascist features (out of 14) in modern Russia and at least 11 in the personality of Donald Trump. Can't go wrong IMHO.

    https://www.openculture.com/2016/11/...f-fascism.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Paulie97  [View Original Post]
    And what about center and left-center voters who are faced with the choice between a MAGA candidate who pushes the whole catalog of wingnut conspiracy theories, including the great replacement theory, and one all hot for LGBTQ issues like allowing athletes born with XY chromosomes to play women's collegiate sports. That's where the phrase "hold your nose" often comes from.
    I personally hate well-intentioned idiots as much as evil bigots.

    Just don't vote. I know it's not ideal, but nothing is. It's dishonest for a centrist to go either way.

  5. #8271
    Quote Originally Posted by PVMonger  [View Original Post]
    You said "It's equally valid to compare USA to Aus, as it is to compare it to ay other country. " Wrong, wrong wrong!
    The article compared the US to Australia because Australia has about the same population demographic and because Australia is a "rich" country.
    Right, right, right! Haha.

    Yes, but you could make any other comparison that you wish to make. Why is demogrpahic or wealth, any better a comparison to many other factors you could choose? Why not compare the country with one that the same levels of obesity. Or same levels of vaccine hesitancy. Or same lack of publci health care?

    But regardless, ypu are choosing to argue about smthg that is totally tangential to my post. Which was how much freedom are you prepared to give up to save lives?

  6. #8270

    Yea

    Quote Originally Posted by Xpartan  [View Original Post]
    OK, maybe you're right. But voting for fascists leads to the same result whether a voter is fascist or not. Let's think about it from another angle. Can you imagine a liberal voting for a communist or Maoist or another leftist extremist? Hell, no. So what is it about right-wingers that makes them stick to the ideology while dismissing all warning signs?

    For a conservative, voting for fascists like Trump or LE Pen even if only due to their tribal affiliations makes them at least enablers of fascism, IMHO.
    But then it comes down to how you define "Fascist. " That's actually fairly complicated, with a historical context stretching back to the post WW I era. And what about center and left-center voters who are faced with the choice between a MAGA candidate who pushes the whole catalog of wingnut conspiracy theories, including the great replacement theory, and one all hot for LGBTQ issues like allowing athletes born with XY chromosomes to play women's collegiate sports. That's where the phrase "hold your nose" often comes from.

  7. #8269
    Quote Originally Posted by Paulie97  [View Original Post]
    That 40% is schewed as LE Pen only got 23% in the first round with another far right candidate picking up 7.47 to 32% of Republicans (depending on how the polling questions are worded) believe the 2020 election was legit. Thus once down to a two way not all who voted for Trump is a MAGA fanatic or could be called a Fascist. The same can surely be said of those who voted for LE Pen in the final round.
    OK, maybe you're right. But voting for fascists leads to the same result whether a voter is fascist or not. Let's think about it from another angle. Can you imagine a liberal voting for a communist or Maoist or another leftist extremist? Hell, no. So what is it about right-wingers that makes them stick to the ideology while dismissing all warning signs?

    For a conservative, voting for fascists like Trump or LE Pen even if only due to their tribal affiliations makes them at least enablers of fascism, IMHO.

  8. #8268
    Quote Originally Posted by DramaFree11  [View Original Post]
    You guys are just crazy, I think you want Covid to drag on forever, just like most liberal's. This is the main difference between Rep. And Dem....the bottom line is everyone did there best, nobody tried to kill people
    Now we are dealing with the ramifications from the crazy ass lockdowns, and it is not good. ... You guys may get your wish and nobody will have jobs and will be living off the government.
    Then you must have totally misunderstood my post. I didn't state an opinion on lcokdowns. Personally I am anti-lockdown and pro-public healthcare. That is a position of neither party. .

  9. #8267

    Oh please

    Quote Originally Posted by DramaFree11  [View Original Post]
    You guys are just crazy, I think you want Covid to drag on forever, just like most liberal's. This needs to end and we need to move forward. This is the main difference between Rep. And Dem. I think you guys really do not want Covid to end. You can argue who was write or wrong, the bottom line is everyone did there best, nobody tried to kill people, Covid was terrible for everyone.

    Now we are dealing with the ramifications from the crazy ass lockdowns, and it is not good. Now we have Shortages and major supply chain issues. Many of shortages are being ignored by the media and the government.

    Either way this is not good and we need solutions quickly before this spins out of control. You guys may get your wish and nobody will have jobs and will be living off the government.
    As usual all you have to offer is straw men and personal attacks. Covid IS going to "drag on forever" as it is in the process of becoming endemic. Restrictions relieved stress on hospital systems, so bodies didn't flow out into the streets and beds were available for non-Covid related emergencies. Restrictions also bought us time to develop vaccines and effective treatments. Many countries struck a pretty good balance between maintaining a levels of freedom and economic activity while saving lives and relieving our healthcare systems.

    P.S. Covid of course only wants a host and couldn't care less what label you attach to yourself, whether moderate, progressive, conservative, MAGA, or the "liberal" that conservatives over time turned into a pegorative. It's the right wing nuts that have been doing most of the politicizing, and that likely cost Trump the election. And this while they have killed off an unnecessary proportion of their voters, as red states as a whole have considering higher Covid death rates than the blue.

    Quote Originally Posted by DramaFree11  [View Original Post]
    You guys are just crazy, I think you want Covid to drag on forever, just like most liberal's. This needs to end and we need to move forward. This is the main difference between Rep. And Dem. I think you guys really do not want Covid to end. You can argue who was write or wrong, the bottom line is everyone did there best, nobody tried to kill people, Covid was terrible for everyone.

    Now we are dealing with the ramifications from the crazy ass lockdowns, and it is not good. Now we have Shortages and major supply chain issues. Many of shortages are being ignored by the media and the government.

    Either way this is not good and we need solutions quickly before this spins out of control. You guys may get your wish and nobody will have jobs and will be living off the government.
    As usual all you have to offer is straw men and personal attacks. Covid IS going to "drag on forever" as it is in the process of becoming endemic. Restrictions relieved stress on hospital systems, so bodies didn't flow out into the streets and beds were available for non-Covid related emergencies. Restrictions also bought us time to develop vaccines and effective treatments. Many countries struck a pretty good balance between maintaining levels of freedom and economic activity while saving lives and relieving our healthcare systems.

    Covid of course only wants a host and couldn't care less what label you attach to yourself, whether moderate, progressive, conservative, MAGA, or the "liberal" that conservatives over time turned into a pejorative. It's the right wing nuts that have been doing most of the politicizing, and that likely cost Trump the election. They've also with their obstinance effectively and unnecessarily killed off a substantial proportion of their voters, as red states as a whole have much higher Covid death rates than the blue. Thus no one should be moved when they want to go online and sling mud.

    https://abcnews.go.com/Health/red-bl...ry?id=83649085

  10. #8266
    Quote Originally Posted by DramaFree11  [View Original Post]
    You guys are just crazy, I think you want Covid to drag on forever, just like most liberal's. This needs to end and we need to move forward. This is the main difference between Rep. And Dem. I think you guys really do not want Covid to end. You can argue who was write or wrong,
    We could also argue who is literate and who is not.

    Hahaha.

    People who refuse to get immunized and people who refuse to wear masks are prolonging this pandemic.

  11. #8265
    Quote Originally Posted by Gino02  [View Original Post]
    Coming to this thread after awhile, and what I see? There are still some "experts" here trying to defend Buyden collapse! Wow! Even the Democratic Party machinery moved on from this administration's failure LOL.
    Yeah, the Dems have not gotten over Trump. After watching 2000 mules and listening to the jack offs here, it is not only obvious that the dumb Dems rigged the election and are attacking freedom of speech and the first amendment because they do not want anyone talking about it. Add in Biden's attempt to federalize the election controls and it is obvious what happened.

    The latest NYT belching on Covid is the same old crap. "If only we had done what South Korea had done, we would be fine. " It is like someone then told the NYT that South Korea is now #8 in cases in the world, and the latest golden child is Australia. So the NYT changes South Korea to Australia. Of course, they only talk about the Covid deaths. The harsh Australian lockdowns caused horrible emotional distress. Thing is Covid is polling in last place with regards to what people care about.

    The latest Biden move is to say some 18 year old nut job who actually trashed Fox news and was in a nut house a year ago killed people in Buffalo because of free speech. Yeah, we cannot have that.

    I come here because I am short the market and I need to be reminded how fucking crazy these dumb Dems are. Trump killed one million people with Covid. The election was not rigged. If you voted for Trump, you are a racist moron. We cannot have freedom of speech, the second amendment, fourth amendment nor due process. The swamp can break the law, but you better not. Going to the brink of nuclear war with a country no one really cares about is sound policy. Inflation and the supply chain issues are Trump's fault. The borders are fine. If people have to hungry because of the war in Ukraine, it is worth it for the sake of Democracy. Simply put, if it is good, it is Democrat. If it is bad, it is Republican. There is zero attempt to get to the bottom of any issue.

    I have never seen a political party so devoid of ideas. I invested along side Obama and did well. Thing is with this clown Biden there I see no good arguments or policies. They are all a disaster. Yeah, the smart Dems have moved on but we do not have smart Dems here.

  12. #8264

    Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by JustTK  [View Original Post]
    It's equally valid to compare USA to Aus, as it is to compare it to ay other country. As long as one understands the playing fiield.

    In 2019 Aus had 8.7 million international tourists. In 2018 NYC alone had 13.8 million international visitors. Domestic tourism accounts for 73% of total tourism revenues in Aus. It is clear that Aus is a far, far more isolated and remote destination. At 3.000 USA deaths per million (likely underreported by 25%) compared to 300 in Aus, clearly there is a major difference. Healthcare system and state of public health in general will have an effect, as would government policy. Aus imposed extremely authoritarian controls on personal freedoms, USA did not. In fact, people from the USA were just about the only regular international travellers over the past 2 years.

    As much as we do not like to accept it, we all face the question. How much death are we prepared to accept in our way of life? There are countles things we could do if we changed how we all lived to reduce death, but we don't do them because we have come to accept that those deaths are tolerable. So how much is tolerable from a new disease like COVID?.
    You said "It's equally valid to compare USA to Aus, as it is to compare it to ay other country. " Wrong, wrong wrong!

    The article (which you obviously did not read) compared the US to Australia because Australia has about the same population demographic and because Australia is a "rich" country. You can blather on and on about all sorts of things yet the big determining factor was that Australians believed that their government was trying to do the right thing whereas 30+% of the US thought (and still think) that the whole thing was a big hoax or nothing more than the flu or any one of a hundred other stupid ideas. Australians, as a people, were willing to do the right thing for their fellow citizens. 30+% of Americans were not.

    Sure, health care plays a part. But overrun hospitals are overrun hospitals, no matter how you slice it and no matter whether or not the country offered "single payer" healthcare.

    The simple facts are that the US government "screwed the pooch" when it came to COVID response and the governmental leadership was so lacking that a million people died. "Failure of capitalism"? Hogwash.

  13. #8263
    Quote Originally Posted by JustTK  [View Original Post]
    It's equally valid to compare USA to Aus, as it is to compare it to ay other country. As long as one understands the playing fiield.

    In 2019 Aus had 8.7 million international tourists. In 2018 NYC alone had 13.8 million international visitors. Domestic tourism accounts for 73% of total tourism revenues in Aus. It is clear that Aus is a far, far more isolated and remote destination. At 3.000 USA deaths per million (likely underreported by 25%) compared to 300 in Aus, clearly there is a major difference. Healthcare system and state of public health in general will have an effect, as would government policy. Aus imposed extremely authoritarian controls on personal freedoms, USA did not. In fact, people from the USA were just about the only regular international travellers over the past 2 years.

    As much as we do not like to accept it, we all face the question. How much death are we prepared to accept in our way of life? There are countles things we could do if we changed how we all lived to reduce death, but we don't do them because we have come to accept that those deaths are tolerable. So how much is tolerable from a new disease like COVID?.
    You guys are just crazy, I think you want Covid to drag on forever, just like most liberal's. This needs to end and we need to move forward. This is the main difference between Rep. And Dem. I think you guys really do not want Covid to end. You can argue who was write or wrong, the bottom line is everyone did there best, nobody tried to kill people, Covid was terrible for everyone.

    Now we are dealing with the ramifications from the crazy ass lockdowns, and it is not good. Now we have Shortages and major supply chain issues. Many of shortages are being ignored by the media and the government.

    Either way this is not good and we need solutions quickly before this spins out of control. You guys may get your wish and nobody will have jobs and will be living off the government.

  14. #8262
    Quote Originally Posted by PVMonger  [View Original Post]
    Australia's location in the distant Pacific is often cited as the cause for its relative COVID success. That, however, does not fully explain the difference in outcomes between the two countries, since Australia has long been, like the United States, highly connected to the world through trade, tourism and immigration. In 2019,9. 5 million international tourists came to Australia.
    It's equally valid to compare USA to Aus, as it is to compare it to ay other country. As long as one understands the playing fiield.

    In 2019 Aus had 8.7 million international tourists. In 2018 NYC alone had 13.8 million international visitors. Domestic tourism accounts for 73% of total tourism revenues in Aus. It is clear that Aus is a far, far more isolated and remote destination. At 3.000 USA deaths per million (likely underreported by 25%) compared to 300 in Aus, clearly there is a major difference. Healthcare system and state of public health in general will have an effect, as would government policy. Aus imposed extremely authoritarian controls on personal freedoms, USA did not. In fact, people from the USA were just about the only regular international travellers over the past 2 years.

    As much as we do not like to accept it, we all face the question. How much death are we prepared to accept in our way of life? There are countles things we could do if we changed how we all lived to reduce death, but we don't do them because we have come to accept that those deaths are tolerable. So how much is tolerable from a new disease like COVID?

    Some countres that imposed very strict measures were complete failures, others that were more open did well. Government policy didn't have a clear impact across the world. I would suggest that countries could do far more by examining their public healthcare systems, and the general state of health of the population. It is clear that healthy people are far less likely to die, and even more so if they can get affordable care should they become seriously ill. To me this looks like a glaring failiure of reliance on capitalism.

  15. #8261

    Stark contrast in response with predictably contrasting results

    Quote Originally Posted by PVMonger  [View Original Post]
    What follows is an interesting article detailing Australia's response to COVID vs the US response to COVID. Both are "rich" countries with similar population demographics. Australia's "COVID deaths per capita" are 1/10th the US death rate. Therefore, what a country does and how it's citizens view citizenship matters. The article points out how the responses differed in both countries.

    The funny thing is, I know exactly how the wingnuts will respond and it will be like the idiots they are.

    "How Australia Saved Thousands of Lives While COVID Killed 1 Million Americans"

    If the United States had the same COVID death rate as Australia, about 900,000 lives would have been saved.

    For many Americans, imagining what might have been will be painful. But especially now, at the milestone of 1 million deaths in the United States, the nations that did a better job of keeping people alive show what Americans could have done differently and what might still need to change...
    Bottom line was Trump "led" like a typical USA Republican, rejecting and denying science and instead making self-serving economic, national security and political decisions like defunding and dismantling the proven Pandemic Prevention and Response teams, removing all of them from those Chinese labs in 2018 against all expert warnings not to do something so stupid and dangerous and spending nearly the entire first critical year of 2020 lying about the viral spread he laid the foundation for emerging, mocking the known effective mitigation efforts, insisting no one need bother inventing a vaccine for it nor taking one, etc etc.

    He thereby not only worked harder than any other world leader, really more than any one person on the planet, to produce the Trump's Pandemic it became around the world in the first place but also more responsibly than anyone for at least 90% of the 1 million (and counting) American deaths from it so far as well as most of the subsequent global economic and Supply-Chain collapse and hyper-inflation.

    It really is impossible for anyone who knows the facts to come to any other logical conclusion.

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