The Morality of Prostitution

[SubCmdr]

I've been at such bars in Pattaya. I've experienced it myself, rather than heard about it from someone.

Well how about that. Since I am writing this reply to you from the lobby of my hotel in Pattaya. Perhaps I too have experienced it myself. LOL!

The way it works there is that a guy needs talk with ladies there and ask some lady he likes if she wants to go with him. And if they have mutual agreement about the time, the place, and the money he will pay her, then they go to the Mamasan of the bar, and the guy pays the bar fine for the lady.

The lady can refuse if she doesn't like the guy, or the money, or the amount of time he wants to spend with her.

Sitting in the bar with my friends, they told me different. But maybe I will test your theory out during the remainder of my visit. You in town? Want to meet on Soi 6 and show me how it is done?

There is some racism in Thailand against dark-skinned people. And I've seen with my own eyes how many bar ladies were ignoring an African American, who came to the bar to chat with the ladies. A lot of them wouldn't even make eye contact with him, and they were giving him all kinds of negative vibes with their non-verbal behavior. And it wasn't just one lady. It was most ladies there. And the Mamasan had nothing to say about it to the ladies.

Well, I don't consider that racism. And I am one of those dark-skinned people you spoke about. I have experienced seeing a girl that I was interested in and then they failed to come over to me after good eye making contact. Lots of pussy out there my fellow ISG brother. Don't feel sorry for me. So far this trip have found enough Thai girls willing to get on THIS black dick to keep it completely occupied. So, I do not know of what you speak. Although I do understand that my experiences do not invalidate yours. If a girl is not interested in you for any reason, move on. Many more certainly will be.

So, the ladies there are totally free to refuse a guy and give him a cold shoulder, if he turns them off in some way. Rumors and hearsay aren't always true. Quite often they get exaggerated and distorted, as they are passed from one person to another. And by the time you hear it, there might be very little, if any truth left in it.

That is certainly true. Your post illustrates that. I was told before my trip that Thai girls were not into black men. I have found that to be a myth busted when I went to the first place where all the girls ignored me except one. For whatever reason, she decided to come up to me and start a conversation. Not really my type. But she was a lovely girl. So, I made a deal with her and she got a room. She was into me sexually and got hers. And when I say she was sexually into me I mean that she let me go head in naked and flood the zone. I guess that is what you call informed consent.

Windmill 1 was a place where the girls were all over me. Of course I am not a cheap charlie when I go out. I buy a bottle and make it rain. Seems to eliminate any biases. Especially since the Mamasan moves the cheep Charlies out of my spot when I arrive. Take notes.

When it comes to consent, I stick with my original post. I would not buy a girl a drink or bar fine her if she was not into me. I'll talk to Mamason and see if I can verify what you have written about consent in the bars here in Pattaya. Would you like for me to report back?

[Dan7373]

I personally don't see consent as a bright line issue as you describe it. Because consent given under the threat of receiving a penalty from force unseen by the individual asking for the consent, but being experienced by the person giving the consent clouds the issue. I would not go with someone who knew was under threat of some kind.

Let's take for example, Pattaya, Thailand. I have been told that if you bar fine a girl she has to go with you. Is that consent given by her? She can refuse. Then she loses her job. That is why if a bar girl is not into me I don't bother to buy her drinks and I just don't bar fine girls as a personal principle. But in my mind this is a perfect example of the shades of gray that exist in this arena.

I've been at such bars in Pattaya. I've experienced it myself, rather than heard about it from someone.

The way it works there is that a guy needs talk with ladies there and ask some lady he likes if she wants to go with him. And if they have mutual agreement about the time, the place, and the money he will pay her, then they go to the Mamasan of the bar, and the guy pays the bar fine for the lady.

The lady can refuse if she doesn't like the guy, or the money, or the amount of time he wants to spend with her.

There is some racism in Thailand against dark-skinned people. And I've seen with my own eyes how many bar ladies were ignoring an African American, who came to the bar to chat with the ladies. A lot of them wouldn't even make eye contact with him, and they were giving him all kinds of negative vibes with their non-verbal behavior. And it wasn't just one lady. It was most ladies there. And the Mamasan had nothing to say about it to the ladies.

So, the ladies there are totally free to refuse a guy and give him a cold shoulder, if he turns them off in some way.

Rumors and hearsay aren't always true. Quite often they get exaggerated and distorted, as they are passed from one person to another. And by the time you hear it, there might be very little, if any truth left in it.

I'm sure medical workers also wouldn't accept consent, if they knew that the patient they are asking is under some kind of threat. This is just common sense, that's true in every kind of consent, regardless of what the consent is for.

Established businesses in Thailand are licensed and regulated by some government agencies. And they themselves have to follow rules and regulations. If someone complains about them breaking the rules, then they can lose their business license and go out of business.

But in Western countries, where P4P isn't allowed, there are no regulations or rules for P4P. And P4P is run unofficially by people whom the government considers criminals. And in such a situation you do indeed need to be suspicious that the sex-workers aren't totally free and they aren't being treated well. They have no independent arbiter to make sure that everything is fair and square. And they are all afraid of turning to the courts and the police, when they have disagreements. So, they have no law. And that's what can make it bad.

[SubCmdr]

When the person is legally capable of making their own decisions, then asking them for consent is sufficient. That's normal practice in every field where consent is required. And sexual consent is no different. When people make porn-movies in western countries, then they obtain consent more or less the same way as it's done in medicine and in every other field. The ethical standards are same in every situation.
It's only when people aren't legally capable of making their own decisions, then asking them for consent isn't sufficient. And you have to make sure that this isn't the kind of people you are dealing with, before you ask for consent.The ethics of consent are already well worked out. You don't need to invent anything special for obtaining consent in P4P. It all comes down to trusting and believing the person, when they say that they consent and agree.

I personally don't see consent as a bright line issue as you describe it. Because consent given under the threat of receiving a penalty from force unseen by the individual asking for the consent, but being experienced by the person giving the consent clouds the issue. I would not go with someone who knew was under threat of some kind.

Let's take for example, Pattaya, Thailand. I have been told that if you bar fine a girl she has to go with you. Is that consent given by her? She can refuse. Then she loses her job. That is why if a bar girl is not into me I don't bother to buy her drinks and I just don't bar fine girls as a personal principle. But in my mind this is a perfect example of the shades of gray that exist in this arena.

[Dan7373]

I'm interested in having sex with prostitutes abroad but there's no way in hell I'm going to to be unethical about it. How do I know which women are being forced to prostitute themselves or being controlled by pimps? Is there anything else I need to make sure to stay ethical?

I'm familiar with getting informed consent in a medical situation. Informed consent is something that's routinely obtained from patients practically every time patients come for treatment.

So, medical workers just have to make sure that the patient understands and agrees to have the medical procedure done. And medical workers do that by explaining to the patient and asking for agreement and consent.

Medical workers don't need to worry that some family members have somehow tried to influence the patient's decision at home or at some other place. And they don't need to worry that the patient's life circumstance have somehow influenced his or her decision.

When the person is legally capable of making their own decisions, then asking them for consent is sufficient. That's normal practice in every field where consent is required. And sexual consent is no different. When people make porn-movies in western countries, then they obtain consent more or less the same way as it's done in medicine and in every other field. The ethical standards are same in every situation.

It's only when people aren't legally capable of making their own decisions, then asking them for consent isn't sufficient. And you have to make sure that this isn't the kind of people you are dealing with, before you ask for consent.

The ethics of consent are already well worked out. You don't need to invent anything special for obtaining consent in P4P.

It all comes down to trusting and believing the person, when they say that they consent and agree.

You don't need to have God-like knowledge of the other person's life and try to decide for them. In fact, having such knowledge and deciding for them on the basis of such knowledge would be unethical. Because it's an invasion of privacy and a violation of the person's right to decide for themselves.

[SubCmdr]

I'm interested in having sex with prostitutes abroad but there's no way in hell I'm going to to be unethical about it. How do I know which women are being forced to prostitute themselves or being controlled by pimps? Is there anything else I need to make sure to stay ethical?

We all see our bodies, minds or both to get money. In those jobs we are all faced with making ethical choices. During my time of work, I was faced with making choices that could cause be to lose favor with my bosses or even my job. But each time I made the choice to hold up my code and risk the loss. A girl in a bad situation can do the same. It may be a hard choice and cause her some pain, but the choice can be made.

[XViking]

I'm interested in having sex with prostitutes abroad but there's no way in hell I'm going to to be unethical about it. How do I know which women are being forced to prostitute themselves or being controlled by pimps? Is there anything else I need to make sure to stay ethical?

There are 2 worlds, mass media world specializing on brain washing and the real world. Forced prostitution exists in the former world. Even if a girl does not like you but cannot decline a client by contract, she would give you such a service that you would never ever come to her again.

[Dan7373]

As long as the woman is willing and came to the decision on her own, it's fair play. Luring and exploiting one into prostitution ought to be the red line.

When I was walking alone in the streets of Pattaya, lots of P4P women there tried to lure me into bed with them and exploit me for the money I had.

It was for me to decide whether to go with a lady or not. But these ladies tried their best to persuade me and influence my decision in their favor.

Was this luring and exploitation? And was it wrong for these ladies to do that?

And what if the roles were reversed? What if it was guys who were trying to persuade some hot lady to do P4P with them?

I can understand and agree with the words consent, willing, and voluntary. But luring and exploitation are often used to describe normal P4P business between ladies and guys. And with such description I don't agree.

I think the words consent, willing, and voluntary are enough to describe legitimate and ethical P4P interaction between ladies and guys. Because proper consent is informed consent where both know and understand the terms of their interaction. And when you have that, then the words luring and exploitation have no place here.

Luring and exploitation happens only when there is some kind of deception, or harassment, or intimidation, or use of force to make it happen.

Just because a P4P lady is calling out to me and showing me her tits doesn't make it luring or exploitation. And the same can be said about a guy calling out to a P4P lady and showing her his money. And no lady is born P4P. They need to get into the business one way or another, once they become adults. So, it's legitimate for people to suggest and offer such opportunities for ladies who might want to do it, including showing the lady the kind of money she can potentially make.

When I was walking alone in Pattaya and P4P ladies were calling out to me, then I said 'No' many times. But some of these ladies were persistent. And they kept at it with me as long as I stayed nearby. I had to say 'No' many times. Some people might call this harassment. Because these ladies wouldn't take 'No' for an answer.

But there were times when I wanted to say 'Yes', and I said 'No' out of habit and not being sure right away. So, the persistent lady eventually got me to go with her. And I'd say that my consent was informed and voluntary, even though the lady was persistent with me.

I wouldn't call this harassment, because I chose to stay and listen to the persistent ladies. If had tried to walk away, and they pursued me, then this might qualify as harassment. And I think it works the same way for ladies too, when guys try to persuade them to do P4P with them. I believe in equality of freedom and rights for both men and women. So, anything that's fair for men is fair for women too.

[Golfinho]

I've spent some time with a P4P lady in Thailand. I wasn't just giving her money and banging her. We also stayed together, and we did everything together for several weeks. We got to know each other really well. And we trusted each other well enough to talk openly and sincerely about everything.

So, one day we were walking around the place where we stayed. And my lady was suddenly surprised to see her lady friend, with whom she worked before at a hotel. Both my lady and her friend used to work as cleaning ladies at a hotel. Her friend was walking around with a European guy, just like my lady was walking with me. But my lady didn't want to approach her friend and say Hi to her. My lady said that her friend was busy working with her European guy, and she didn't want to distract her from that..

As long as the woman is willing and came to the decision on her own, it's fair play. Luring and exploiting one into prostitution ought to be the red line.

[Dan7373]

I've spent some time with a P4P lady in Thailand. I wasn't just giving her money and banging her. We also stayed together, and we did everything together for several weeks. We got to know each other really well. And we trusted each other well enough to talk openly and sincerely about everything.

So, one day we were walking around the place where we stayed. And my lady was suddenly surprised to see her lady friend, with whom she worked before at a hotel. Both my lady and her friend used to work as cleaning ladies at a hotel. Her friend was walking around with a European guy, just like my lady was walking with me. But my lady didn't want to approach her friend and say Hi to her. My lady said that her friend was busy working with her European guy, and she didn't want to distract her from that.

So, they went their way, and we went our way. But my lady kept telling me just how surprised she was to see her friend obviously doing P4P work with a guy. Because when both my lady and her friend worked together as cleaning ladies at a hotel, then her friend often criticized the P4P ladies at the hotel for doing something shameful and dishonorable. This lady friend told my lady many times that she would never ever do something like this. P4P work was beneath her.

That's why my lady was so surprised to see her morally protesting friend now doing P4P work with a guy. Her friend was now doing something that she said she would never do.

But my lady didn't have anything negative to say about her friend for being morally inconsistent or being a hypocrite. She just accepted that her friend changed her mind, and she understood why her friend might want to change her mind this way.

They both worked as cleaning ladies. It was a lot of work and not too much money. And they were basically stuck in that situation. They were at the bottom of the social ladder. And they couldn't make it better, unless they did something different. P4P work was the obvious choice for both of them. Because they could make a lot more money, and they didn't have to work nearly as much or as hard.

And then on a different occasion, I was telling my lady that I came to Thailand to meet P4P ladies like her. And I said to her that in my own country I could get into a lot of trouble for doing this kind thing. So, were talking about the people who want to end prostitution and put ladies like her to work on regular jobs. And my lady got angry. Because she used to work at a regular job, and she knew what it was like. Basically she saw that regular work as a kind of exploitation that permanently left people in a bad situation.

Instead of seeing these people, who want to end prostitution, as being on her side and speaking for her interests, she saw them as a kind of enemies who want to violate her freedom and choice and return her back to unhappiness and exploitation.

I think the debate about prostitution nowadays comes down to debate about people's freedom to decide and to choose for themselves. And the people, who are trying to end prostitution with prohibitive and punitive laws, don't have a moral leg to stand on. So, instead of saying openly and honestly that that want to put some limits on the freedom of women and men to prohibit prostitution. They lie and pretend that all P4P ladies are forced and unfree, and there is no such thing as P4P by choice.

That's what their position basically comes down to. They claim that there is no such thing as P4P by choice. And to uphold their position, they do everything they can to ignore any objections from P4P ladies and not allow them to speak for themselves. They bring out only P4P ladies who suffered some kind of abuse and injustice to support their view, and they ignore the rest. And most P4P ladies aren't eager to speak out publicly and make themselves known. Because they can suffer from discrimination and abuse as a result of such revelation. Which enables opponents of prostitution to get away with their lies and propaganda.

In an honest debate about prostitution, the morality of prostitution comes down to the morality of freedom. Because the question is: Should consenting adults be free to choose and to be with each other as they wish? Or should there be limits on their freedom to make it better for society or for some other people?

Everything else is a red herring that distracts people from the issue of freedom. Because exceptions don't make the rule. Just because you can find some P4P ladies who are abused and who aren't free, doesn't necessarily mean that all P4P ladies are like that. Such cases are exceptions that exist mostly in countries that are trying to prohibit prostitution and as a result drive such women into the underground economy into the clutches of criminals and abusers.

[SubCmdr]

Hey, as a secret mongerer for quite some years I ask this question here. I am a 41 years old man with a good job. That found a beautiful lady of 28 years old. The first date I had with her I took her to a dinner and a show and then we had sex. I've paid her for this 500 euro. This is my and hers first experience at this dating app (seeking), so as we had fun we decided to continute together and we logged off the site. I never paid her any more money except from clothes meals and perfumes. We both have feeling for each other.

Here are my answers:

I just don't really understand what is the morality stand on this issue.

There is none. It was consensual.

Did I use her? As I am much wealthier than her.

No, financial status does not factor in it was a consensual relationship.

Is it a relationship?

It most certainly is brother. You want proof. I also made a connect with a girl from Seeking. Paid encounter the first visit. After that I just paid for the good times we shared together (picked up all the trip expenses). We shared many interests together. She went on trips with other men from seeking, keeping in touch with me and often telling me how bored she was with these other guys but she needed the money. She broke up with me because I wanted something more serious and she did not think I would be the type of man that she wanted for a long term relationship. She started dating someone else. It got serious. Then they broke up. She has kept in touch with me the entire time we have known each other. Now she is facing a serious illness and I check on her everyday. We have remained in touch for over 15 years.

So, my personal answer to your questions are that you are overthinking it. And my suggestion is to not do that.

Answering the question will she be with me without my money. Well she didn't ask any more money, and to some extant every woman marry up to a promise of a better life. I've never had this experience so forgive me for the naive questions.

Enjoy what you have. But my suggestion is not to get to serious about it. There is something to be said about how you two started. And if you want to get serious there will have to be some intense discussions about expectations. I don't know her, but human incentive is to be deceptive if you are truly offering to bring "life changing money" into her life.

Thanks in advance.

You are welcome.

[CitizenX1]

Hey, as a secret mongerer for quite some years I ask this question here.

I am a 41 years old man with a good job.

That found a beautiful lady of 28 years old.

The first date I had with her I took her to a dinner and a show and then we had sex.

I've paid her for this 500 euro.

This is my and hers first experience at this dating app (seeking), so as we had fun we decided to continute together and we logged off the site.

I never paid her any more money except from clothes meals and perfumes.

We both have feeling for each other.

I just don't really understand what is the morality stand on this issue.

Did I use her? As I am much wealthier than her.

Is it a relationship?

Answering the question will she be with me without my money. Well she didn't ask any more money, and to some extant every woman marry up to a promise of a better life.

I've never had this experience so forgive me for the naive questions.

Thanks in advance.

[BbqMushrooms]

I've been looking for this article about prostitution and mongering and why they would never be widely accepted in society. It went through each societal demographic and from their perspective on prostitution and its morality. For example. A newly married husband would be against it because they don't have the option since they are married to one woman for the rest of their life. A grandmother wouldn't want it because it means that either the young men in her family aren't meeting good women to marry or the young women in her family are working in this line of work that's unbecoming.

Anyone know what I'm talking about? I thought I saw it on stick man's blog but I emailed him and it didn't ring a bell for him.

[PedroMorales]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tBXhEy5P2M

This young American lady knows it all. 18 and a hardened hooker. You won't sweep her off her feet. Her take on Jesus is something else.

"£Once a trick, always a trick". She has more sound bites than Sun Tsu.

[CrowExplorer]

I'm interested in having sex with prostitutes abroad but there's no way in hell I'm going to to be unethical about it. How do I know which women are being forced to prostitute themselves or being controlled by pimps? Is there anything else I need to make sure to stay ethical?

Short of psychic ability, I don't see any way you could "know" whether a woman was being coerced somehow. However, I doubt that in poorer countries where prostitution is legal, they have to "coerce" women very often.

Even in the USA where prostitution is illegal (except Nevada), I've got a local Korean massage parlor I frequent, I know the owner (an older Korean lady), over the years she has had some good girls who really like the work, others that clearly aren't that into it, and don't stick around for very long. I've never gotten a vibe, like these girls are being "forced" into this line of work somehow. At most I've had a few girls who don't seem very enthusiastic, and as I said, it's not long before they quit. If they were being coerced they wouldn't exactly have an option to quit, would they?

These girls have the option to make the same amount of money in 4 hours as they would in 40 hours of legit work. I doubt there's much "coercion" taking place.

[PedroMorales]

That was a good and thoughtful post of yours. You are lucky to be in Ecuador where there is a large reservoir of willing female flesh. We, being unable to travel, are stuck with the women you describe and which Cardi be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardi_B#Controversies typified. I had never heard of this joker but her type is the high priestess women aspire to.

In the current economy, women don't need men. It is better to stay at home, to ponce off parents, to then move into their own rented dive, pay and fortune for it and party, party, party.

We are left with little choice as you say. No wonder men (and women) fall for online scammers as there is nothing for them and all educational propaganda is geared to saying being a man or a boy (climb trees) is wrong. One can be a LBSM+ degenerate and scare the pants off kids, but woe betide the middle aged + man who just wants a romp and a bonk.

Isn't it amazing about half the world have vaginas and we cannot get into one or more of them?

Meaningful mongering ravel seems off the menu for a long time. Besides paying over priced locally based hookers, the only way is to get among groups of them and pick one or more off. But that is almost impossible without having the attributes the pussy possessor have been groomed to admire. Hard times.

There is in my opinion a flaw in your logic, let's look at the way the world works in the west and the power dynamics that according to some women men have, women, get to choose which humans come into the world, they choose who they give their bodies too, in the west over 60% of college enrolled are women, women today in certain areas make more money than men, they hold more political power as well most voters are women, so it's clear just by reading the statistics it's not men who are "winning" and clearly the argument of my body my choice falls on deaf ears when it comes to prostitution.

What I believe is going on and this is a trend in the west, is an effort to restrict men's choices let's be clear about one fucking thing, it's literally almost criminal to approach women nowadays in some areas of the west "laws against catcalling" come to mind, why would men risk embarrassment, humiliation and possible criminal prosecution for striking up a conversation with girls who look like men and act like they have no interest in men, however, there is one reason and it's not moral against prostitution, it's an effort to restrict men's choices, women hate it when men have an advantage in the sexual market place and prostitution is just that, a choice it has always existed even in biblical times it's not "new", it's a power dynamic of the highest degree to restrict your freedom to choose. If prostitution existed for ex. In the US in all 50 states and territories, they would force women to do something they have not done in generation compete for your attention so yeah prostitution will not be legalized any time soon but the reason is not moral, clearly when a woman for ex. Cardi Bi an entertainer of sorts can publicly talk about drugging men and robbing them (illegal behavior) yet Bill Cosby gets canceled and thrown the book at for said behavior it's clearly not about morality it's abut about power my 2 cents.