Thread: Tokyo
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02-16-25 17:22 #14134Senior Member

Posts: 181Thanks for the information AT. Sounds like Etoile is the sort of service I'm looking for. I rather pay a premium and narrow chances of being disappointed than paying less to be disappointed. Anyway, likely only in Japan once and I know it's an expensive place so I'm game and will be checking it out. Did you have similar luck with any delivery service places? I've read most of the threads and again talking around the intercourse issue seems like its limited to BJs and girls rubbing on you which likely is not going to be my cup of tea for $300 USD particularly after flying in from Thailand.
Originally Posted by AllTaken123
[View Original Post]
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02-16-25 03:57 #14133Senior Member

Posts: 1738I have had numerous one night stands and short term relationships with "normal" Japanese girls in Japan and in Australia over the years. If you treat them respectfully as normal girls, you have a 95% chance of scoring. They tend not to get emotionally attached to you; when their time is up here, they just walk out the door and you never hear from them again.
Originally Posted by CaptainSolo
[View Original Post]
Read the NAMPA thread.
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02-16-25 00:17 #14132Senior Member

Posts: 1448Language is probably the biggest issue in Japan. Rarely I will find someone fluent in English. If they are fluent in English and a good performer that's a rare treat. I just had a couple hours with Yuka from Tokyo Style.
https://www.tokyostyle-delivery.jp/profile.php?cid=Yuka
I booked earlier in the day asking for a recommendation. They speak English so it's pretty easy w Telegram app. I had her come to my hotel and she was on time. She really came out of her shell in the room when she took off her dress to reveal a real nice body.
Yuka is fluent in English. She must have studied overseas or something. I mean she even knows English jokes and sex talk. I didn't want to get too personal with her, so I didn't ask. Plus I barely had time because she was all over me. Very active, very horny. Tongue in my mouth, playing with my nipples, tickling my balls, teasing my cock, asking me to finger her, and always checking in with me to see if I liked what was going on. From beginning to end she was engaged and engaging.
In terms of look she is on the short side, perky natural tits, pointy nipples, gorgeous round ass, small shaved pussy. Very accurate picture of her from her blog attached. You know a lot of pros are good at acting but after years of experience she definitely seemed to get off on the whole thing. She squirted a couple of times when I fingered her fast and again when she made me cum in her mouth.
Her massage is good and relaxing. Otherwise it's straight ahead sexy action. She was stroking me off as soon as we met, sucking me off during the gel bath, putting her nice ass in my face, asking me to suck her nipples during what is usually a boring shower. Definitely recommend her if you want an English speaker who wants to cum as much as you do.
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02-15-25 23:10 #14131Senior Member

Posts: 243ISG Dec to Feb Intel
This is a collection of links to intel over the past 2 months. Everyone contributed. I hope you can easily find the topic you want this way, especially during travel if you book mark this list. I will post a copy of this to the blog:
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2966012 Japan Guides for beginners
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2983139 Booking by LINE for Etoile in Tokyo, Yoshiwara
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2983059 Women of the world
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2983058 PSA Japan is expensive for fs
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2982889 Luxe Oppai pub, thumbs up
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2982653 Etoile, Casanova, Currency Exchange
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2982421 Casanova Soapland Yoshiwara
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2982411 Japanese language test for Hosekinobako, Leicester
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2982361 Etoile Hinata
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2982243 JAV experience
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2982241 Various shops
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2982119 Nono
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2982101 711 ATMs, Tokyo Amateur Escort Links
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2982047 Luxe Oppai pub, thumbs down
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...43#post2939843 Foreigner friendly soaps and DH
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2981866 Oppai pubs, JAV, FC2
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2981838 Japanese tachinbo GPS
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2981756 Limousine airport bus, GPS
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2981752 Hot girls are rare, Kira Kira
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2981716 Okubo girls can be sharks
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2981608 Robo deli
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2981551 Tokyo Hentai Club, Kira Kira
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2981448 APA hotel Kabukicho, Cabin Premier Okubo are girl friendly
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2981265 PSA walk past black touts Kabukicho
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2980818 Tokyo Amateur Escort
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2980193 GFE Soapland Kawasaki
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2979529 DH negotiation for fs
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2979345 Sayuri Ran Thai Massage
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2979332 Janjan bj just close your eyes
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2979329 Sexy Cat 2nd
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2978003 Sexy Cat 1st
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2979263 Esim
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2979172 International roaming
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2979051 Roaming options
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2978749 Esim
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2978707 Honey group fetish shops
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2978256 When you really need a bj
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2978149 Tokyo Amateur Escort
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2977559 Sachi Lovely Hand
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2977469 Asian Feeling B+S
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2977394 Feedback and thoughts
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2977242 Jan Jan Sugamo
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2977240 Kira Kira Yokohama
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2977180 Suzu and Riku TAE
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2977089 Coco in Gotanda
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2976987 Mr America has joined the 1%
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2976527 Kira Kira supports English, Chinese, Korean
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2976394 Luxe TAE THC, thumbs up
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2976211 Kira Kira vote
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2976094 Anal Adventures 2nd
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2975997 General Japan thoughts
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2975878 Black touts, Chinese massage
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2975842 Avoid Kabukicho touts
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2975815 Other cities have legit touts
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2975808 Summary of all I know
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2975466 Love hotels are for banging
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2974492 Luxe accepts all races including black
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2974479 GFE Soapland accepts all races including black
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2974418 Tokyo locations to stay
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2974391 Anal Adventures 1st
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2974226 Getting laid on layover
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2973946 General thoughts and options
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2973844 Why we ignore Kabukicho touts
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2972781 AnalKnight digs deep
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2972725 Rui Tokyo Hentai Club
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2972623 Japanese night life blog
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2972554 Civilian girls Roppongi Shibuya
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2972466 Sayuri THC YMMV, Bribs is genius
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2972346 Setsuna Tokyo Amateur Escort
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2972313 Sayuri Tokyo Hentai Club thumbs down
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2972050 Manzoku directions
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2971377 Manzoku is usually cheaper
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2971280 Massage shops, extra 0s
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2970736 Legal age 18, drinking age 20
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2970608 PSA Age of Majority
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2970555 Japan is full of Asian women
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2970535 General Japan thoughts
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2951357 Tachinbo and civilian women
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2949740 Kira Kira raises prices*
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2949527 Kira Kira 4th visit on repeat
* Kira Kira made an English website and raised its prices 5000 yen ($33) after some guy kept writing guides about how to use them last year. They also hired a bunch more girls, the girls tend to give excellent service. Multi-shot friendly, good attitude. When you go to a more upscale Tokyo soapland, you are basically paying more for a hotter girl but the service is going to be comparable on average. Obviously, any shop might have an outstanding girl as an exception so we're just talking about average expectations here.
Comments
It's about 8 thumbs up for Kira Kira, 1 thumbs down, some "good but thailand cheaper" reports. About 7 thumbs up for Luxe, 2 thumbs down, multiple "glad I went but no repeat" reports. Obviously Thailand is going to be cheaper, but if you are in Japan anyways and like Japanese women there is fun to be had. Compared to Japan's other options, Kira Kira is very budget friendly with good service, we are expecting a "good enough" decent girl not a stunner. Oppai pubs are much cheaper than US strip clubs for what you get, but unfortunately only Luxe is fully foreigner friendly. About 2 years Japanese to get into the others with Manzoku, but Atex managed to get in with a friend and by showing receipts.
If you have some language skills, girls bars and hostess bars are quite cheap. The entry is 3000 to 5000 yen for most places. I have rarely done these but on some occasion a girl standing outside holding up a sign is so cute or beautiful I'm just stunned. In Osaka 20 years ago I met one such girl and chatted with her 30 minutes, then extended another 30. It was only 2000 yen ($13) to "date" her plus 1000 yen ($7) to "keep" her instead of switch girls. I lucked out because I remember her to this day, she said she was 20 and looked 20, cute and adorable. Most civilian women cost me a lot more just to date. Obviously, most girls are neither that cheap nor memorable but it sometimes happens. That's why girls stand outside holding up signs, there is no B+S you get the girl you pick. Once the night gets late, the good ones get taken so you see fewer and fewer girls "not taken". Just talking and beer, a girls bar is no touch but the girls sometimes gently touch me. It is literally cheaper than a Japanese language teacher and when a girl is cute enough I pay full attention to her every word.
The advice on avoiding touts is specific to Kabukicho where there are B+S, scams, and shops that suck they will take you to. I actually never had this problem in other cities in Japan, but out of caution I don't want to simply say it's okay elsewhere. Just that within Kabukicho you want to research your spot and ignore touts, or go to any Manzoku shop where every shop they list is legit since they rely on repeat customers.
About race restrictions and places that suck, the best approach is for us to just go where we are welcome. Give those places our business.
The purpose of the "getting laid on a layover" guide is to illustrate how to navigate Japan's public transportation as a tourist. The first time is hardest, but it's actually quite amazing, on-time, and well organized. Most people work very hard to provide good service.
A reminder that no matter the country, you can make things cheaper by exchanging money at a good rate. 711 convenience stores are all over Japan and they have ATM machines that take international bank cards in my experience. I believe you get the very best rate if you choose Yen. If the "mid-market" exchange rate for Yen is 154, then the Buy rate might be 151 and sell rate 157 since that's their profit. There may be ATM fees, which worked out to be another 1%-2% depending on your bank. CCs can be good for regular tourist shopping, but sex shops often have to pass on extra fees since CCs will charge them extra in turn.
Yoasobi is the foreigner-friendly portal ov cityheaven. No need to use cityheaven if you don't speak Japanese, it is IP locked to Japan.
https://yoasobi-heaven.com/en/tokyo/shop-list/ Yoasobi Tokyo shop list (foreigner friendly)
https://yoasobi-heaven.com/zh-hans/tokyo/shop-list/ 中文简体
https://yoasobi-heaven.com/zh-hant/tokyo/shop-list/ 中文繁體
https://yoasobi-heaven.com/ko/tokyo/shop-list/ Yoasobi Tokyo 한국어
It is an ad site, so just by being on Yoasobi it confirms the shop is open to foreigners. The staff might not speak Japanese, but if you use LINE or wechat their staff who speaks English can answer and help. Japan is generally very safe. If you choose to use DH, make sure to read the negotiation post or you might be like dinner on a plate for a veteran jgirl.
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2979529 DH negotiation for fs
https://yoasobi-heaven.com/en/tokyo/A1304/gingira/ Gingira English ad plus girls' media
For those coming from the US, there are jgirl options with NYC having the most. But occasionally Socal will have one or two.
http://www.usasexguide.nl/forum/show...ders-Manhattan Jgirls in NY
http://www.usasexguide.nl/forum/show...=1#post7193581 Jgirls in OC
Other key guides and links
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2968569 Japan Legal situation
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2959611 Oppai pub guide with links
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2966030 ISG Jul to Dec intel
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2969660 ISG summary DH Soapland Oppai
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1#post2983190 ISG Dec to Feb intel (this post)
Many great posts with fresh intel, I will reply at a later time with some tips.
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02-15-25 18:38 #14130Regular Member

Posts: 231. If you go into the Diary page, the girls have their entries. You can click through their entries and you'll find the LINE account. Just make sure you click through the girl you're interested in. I also tried to book a session with Anzu and found her LINE there as well but she was booked out.
Originally Posted by CCRider1008
[View Original Post]
2. When I contacted Hinata via LINE, I just asked her if she accepts foreigners and she said yes. I was able to book everything directly through her.
3. So I did a lot of research on this. My understanding is that the fee on the site is not the total fee, that's just what they call the "bathing fee". You can think of it as an entrance fee. The total fee includes the bathing fee and extras and probably a foreigner fee. There are posts about this on other review sites that break down the fees but I won't link to them because I'm not sure if that's allowed here. If someone can confirm that it's fine to link, I'll let you know where to look. And yes, I knew the price before booking. Hinata told me the total price before I confirmed.
4. Cordon Bleu and why-shirts. I'm not saying they're not great, just saying Etoile was the best. And someone may prefer the girls at the other locations. I'll post reviews of the other two soon.
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02-15-25 12:22 #14129Senior Member

Posts: 6994Sexual Expressions
Really enjoy the insights by Traveler X and the other bros in this thread.
As I met and dated girls from different cultures, I found remarkable differences in their attitudes in and out of bed, to me driven primarily by exposure to religion beliefs in early life and culture in adult life. To qualify, I am really not a big researcher in religious beliefs and practices.
I had a couple ST and LT dates with Muslim girls from Jakarta, Java, Sumatra, Bali, KL and Southern Thailand. Girls from Muslim background are submissive to men, probably the most submissive in my experiences. They don't take initiatives in starting relationships, conversation, touching, fights or sex, just quietly make themselves available for any sexual acts without objection or resistance, absorb the pleasures without showing any expressions, seem shameful to enjoy sex. These girls were the meekest of the meeks hehe.
The Kazackh girl I met recently in Bangkok is from a predominantly Muslim country, but wore a small gold cross, so she's a minority Christian. She showed lots of loving and sexy expressions in anticipation of sex as I was embracing her tight spinner body, kissing her mouth, squeezing her exquisite boobs, groping her moist criotch. Her body was sensitive and aroused to the touches, vagina flowing wet at the first touch. She made a lot of sexy noise as I tried hard to penetrate her tight channel, reached up to kiss my mouth, squeezed me hard, then wailed out, repeatedly called out OMG loudly, buckingher hip as we fully engaged in deep motion. Sex with her was the most loving and satisfying.
Girls from Christian countries tend to be more open about their thoughts and feelings, openly let you know them without holding back. Viet girls are primarily atheists but with cultural influences from France, so they are open, loud and assertive. US girls would let you know what they like and dislike, fight viciously and show ugly emotions, but are more flexible and adaptable in attitudes. They could snuggle up to you after the ugly fights and say they are sorry in the sweetest ways. Just don't count on all US girls holding no grudges as a few ISG bros had the ugliest break ups.
Christian girls in the Philippines are meek but sweet and open about sex, quiet by responsive to pleasures. I popped 7 times with 5 girls in Manila the first day I arrived in Manila. A student in Manila said sex with me was so good, tried to revive my dick couple times at night to have sex, all BB. Christian girls in Argentina and Uruguay and are fun, helpful, open, honest and spontaneous. Girls in Paraguay are hardened and cynical. Girls in atheist China are not shy to tell you their feelings and when, where, how, how often they want sex.
But both Japanese girls I bagged in Tokyo this time also wore small crosses, and they were quiet and passive in bed, like they were still ruled by the Shinto warlords. So culture may have more influences than religions over sexual expressions. Like Traveler X posted, normal Japanese girls and women I met on in Japan and US are nice, approachable to foreigners, seem open, honest and very helpful without any prejudice. They walk the streets hands in hands with their friends, talk, smile in the most innocent ways. Perhaps non-pro Japanese girls would be far more responsive and expressive in sexual relationships?
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02-15-25 12:19 #14128Senior Member

Posts: 6994Japan is bad for mongers
Japan is very expensive for paid sex.
Girls are not good-looking, responsive or expressive in bed. They were just laying there moaning. I like full kissing, got so aroused, in a hurry tp penetrate, forgot about the chitsu option.
I would go to Japan for food and sight-seeing, but not for sex.
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02-15-25 12:14 #14127Senior Member

Posts: 6994She knew I wanted to fuck, doing CBJ to get me hard.
Looked like she was well rehearsed in squeezing money out of guys.
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02-15-25 12:12 #14126Senior Member

Posts: 6994Extra with Nono
1. After foreplay, I pinned her down and penetrated her bare, half way in. She said vaginal sex costs 40 K why extra. I said 20 K, she agreed. I continued penetrating her. Near the end she did not want me to pop inside her so she brought out a pink condom, tried to put it on, but it was way too small for me. Finally she got it on, I continued to fuck her and popped in the condom.
2. I gave her the extra 20 K why, total 50 K why, at the end before we headed out to dinner.
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02-15-25 09:53 #14125Senior Member

Posts: 39Paradise in 2019 you are referring to what was a foreign friendly soapland in Kawasaki. It closed during covid, and in its place is GFE soapland. I am not 100% about ownership though. It is unrelated to the paradise delivery health based in Shibuya to my knowledge.
Originally Posted by BeWilder
[View Original Post]
I actually still regularly see a girl who used to work there who then turned into an independent escort, who now no longer takes new clients. I might ask her more about the history one day.
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02-15-25 07:08 #14124Regular Member

Posts: 1First Time Japan
Hello,
I see a lot of professionalism in this forum and I would appreciate for all your advice.
For the first and last (probably) time ever, I could get a vacation from my family and 1 guy traveling to Tokyo.
My main goal is traveling during days and mongering at nights.
I thought Shibuya area would be good enough, but when I go through the threads, I see the good locations are far from the city.
Any recommendations to the location for me to stay to meet all the desires?
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02-14-25 22:40 #14123Senior Member

Posts: 6994Really enjoy the insights by Traveler X and the other bros in this thread.
As I met and dated girls from different cultures, I found remarkable differences in their attitudes in and out of bed, to me driven primarily by exposure to religion beliefs in early life and culture in adult life. To qualify, I am really not a big researcher in religious beliefs and practices.
I had a couple ST and LT dates with Muslim girls from Jakarta, Java, Sumatra, Bali, KL and Southern Thailand. Girls from Muslim background are submissive to men, probably the most submissive in my experiences. They don't take initiatives in starting relationships, conversation, touching, fights or sex, just quietly make themselves available for any sexual acts without objection or resistance, absorb the pleasures without showing any expressions, seem shameful to enjoy sex. These girls were the meekest of the meeks hehe.
The Kazackh girl I met recently in Bangkok is from a predominantly Muslim country, but wore a small gold cross, so she's a minority Christian. She showed lots of loving and sexy expressions in anticipation of sex as I was embracing her tight spinner body, kissing her mouth, squeezing her exquisite boobs, groping her moist criotch. Her body was sensitive and aroused to the touches, vagina flowing wet at the first touch. She made a lot of sexy noise as I tried hard to penetrate her tight channel, reached up to kiss my mouth, squeezed me hard, then wailed out, repeatedly called out OMG loudly, buckingher hip as we fully engaged in deep motion. Sex with her was the most loving and satisfying.
Girls from Christian countries tend to be more open about their thoughts and feelings, openly let you know them without holding back. Viet girls are primarily atheists but with cultural influences from France, so they are open, loud and assertive. US girls would let you know what they like and dislike, fight viciously and show ugly emotions, but are more flexible and adaptable in attitudes. They could snuggle up to you after the ugly fights and say they are sorry in the sweetest ways. Just don't count on all US girls holding no grudges as a few ISG bros had the ugliest break ups.
Christian girls in the Philippines are meek but sweet and open about sex, quiet by responsive to pleasures. I popped 7 times with 5 girls in Manila the first day I arrived in Manila. A student in Manila said sex with me was so good, tried to revive my dick couple times at night to have sex, all BB. Christian girls in Argentina and Uruguay and are fun, helpful, open, honest and spontaneous. Girls in Paraguay are hardened and cynical. Girls in atheist China are not shy to tell you their feelings and when, where, how, how often they want sex.
But both Japanese girls I bagged in Tokyo this time also wore small crosses, and they were quiet and passive in bed, like they were still ruled by the Shinto warlords. So culture may have more influences than religions over sexual expressions. Like Traveler X posted, normal Japanese girls and women I met on in Japan and US are nice, approachable to foreigners, seem open, honest and very helpful without any prejudice. They walk the streets hands in hands with their friends, talk, smile in the most innocent ways. Perhaps non-pro Japanese girls would be far more responsive and expressive in sexual relationships?
Originally Posted by TravelerX
[View Original Post]
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02-14-25 20:20 #14122Senior Member

Posts: 181Another good clear report GS. Interesting their website doesn't list anal as option (which I'm reading is maybe code for chitsu) which is probably why she was so strict. Crossing this one of my list.
Originally Posted by CaptainSolo
[View Original Post]
You came from Bangkok to Japan. Same for me in March. I hesitate asking but did Japan live up to your expectation from monger perspective? I'm going to Japan mostly as tourist and have been to thailand 5 times now so I'm curious.
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02-14-25 20:13 #14121Senior Member

Posts: 181Good reporting GS. What a fucking shitty experience. Did you give her the cash upfront? If you did it over again would you have been alot more specific about what exactly you wanted or is she just a scamming working girl who would ahve tried the same bullshit anyway?
Originally Posted by CaptainSolo
[View Original Post]
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02-14-25 19:57 #14120Senior Member

Posts: 181Couple questions GS. Japan and its sex law is so fucked up it's so hard to decipher how people and websites talk around pussy fucking. I've never seen a more confusing place as a monger.
Originally Posted by CaptainSolo
[View Original Post]
1. " I got so horny to penetrate her, completely forgot the 3 K Yen BBBJ option. She was so tight, took a lot of lube and work. Had a long, energetic session, popped big. ".
This implies you pussy fucked her. Correct?
2. " Gave her 20 K yens tip for extras, total $450 ".
So further implies FS chitsu fucking cost you another $200. Accurate? And was this BB or covered and was that your choice or her insistance?









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