General Info

**Cebu Local** · 05-22-05 23:40

Originally Posted by emailkid

I did BKK-MNL one way in February on Philippine Air for around $200 IIRC.

There are several LCCs operating out of BKK and SIN as well as KUL. You can book BKK-SIN for as low as 25 or 30 dollars, though that fare isn't always available.

If you want to save some money you may be able to book a couple of tickets on AirAsia, Jet*Asia, TigerAir, ValueAir and a few others that don't recall now. Just do a Google search.

You will have to connect in KUL or SIN and change planes / airlines, and it will cost you some time. OTOH, a couple of those airlines actually fly into CRK (Clark Air Base in Angeles), which will save you the hassle of getting from Manila to AC. Don't believe all the airlines fly to CRK 7 days a week.

Tiger is one of the airlines that flies to CRK, but that will normally set you back more than $50.

EMK

Tiger Airways will be going from 3 times a week to Daily from Singapore,Air Asia is 3 times weekly from KL.Both flying directly into Clark.Value Air does not fly into the Philippines yet and Jetstar flies into Manila

**Cebu Local** · 05-22-05 23:37

Originally Posted by Fastpiston

Has anyone any news of budget airlines flying the MNL BKK route? If so kindly give details. I heard that a Thai budget airline was going to do the route in the near future?

Thai Air Asia is planning to in the near future and Thai Airways is going to be flying to Cebu soon also

**Dog Face** · 05-22-05 14:39

I would how things are in Angeles City around Xmas time and New Years. i am planing a trip some in Dec. 25. Would I be wasteing my time, or should I go in late March?

Thank you,

Dog face

**Frequent Flier** · 05-20-05 20:17

Thanks Mahku!

**EmailKid** · 05-20-05 03:29

Originally Posted by Fastpiston

Has anyone any news of budget airlines flying the MNL BKK route? If so kindly give details. I heard that a Thai budget airline was going to do the route in the near future?

I did BKK-MNL one way in February on Philippine Air for around $200 IIRC.

There are several LCCs operating out of BKK and SIN as well as KUL. You can book BKK-SIN for as low as 25 or 30 dollars, though that fare isn't always available.

If you want to save some money you may be able to book a couple of tickets on AirAsia, Jet*Asia, TigerAir, ValueAir and a few others that don't recall now. Just do a Google search.

You will have to connect in KUL or SIN and change planes / airlines, and it will cost you some time. OTOH, a couple of those airlines actually fly into CRK (Clark Air Base in Angeles), which will save you the hassle of getting from Manila to AC. Don't believe all the airlines fly to CRK 7 days a week.

Tiger is one of the airlines that flies to CRK, but that will normally set you back more than $50.

EMK

**Mahku** · 05-19-05 15:17

About economics and our chosen hobby, etc. here is something a friend sent me:

The daughter had not been to the house for over 5 years. Upon her return, her father cussed her out:

"Where have you been all this time, you ingrate! Why didn't you write us? Not even a line to let us know how you were doing? Why didn't you call? You little tramp! Don't you know what you put your Mom through??!!"

The girl, crying: "Sniff, sniff.. dad.. I became a PROSTITUTE..."

"WHAT? Out of here, you shameless harlot, sinner! You're a disgrace to this family! I don't ever want to see you again!"

"OK, Dad. As you wish. I just came back to give Mom this fur coat and title to a mansion, a savings account certificate of $5 million for my little brother, and for you, Daddy, this gold Rolex, the spanking new BMW that's parked outside and a lifetime membership to the Country Club.. and an invitation for you all to spend New Years' Eve, on board my new yacht in the Riviera,
and ..

"Now what was it you said you had become?"

Girl, crying again: Sniff, sniff "A prostitute Dad!"

"Oh, Gee! you scared me half to death, girl! I thought you said "A PROTESTANT! Come here and give your old man a hug!"

**Pure Logic** · 05-19-05 07:59

The paradox I initially tried to communicate was that according to western logic, the sum of expenditures cannot exceed the sum of incomes.

Most of the discussion related to how Filipinos don’t spend money wisely. This discussion hinted at a related paradox: Common sense suggests that when you’re poor, you must budget wisely or suffer unpleasant consequences, such as having no food to eat, no clean clothes to wear, or being homeless. I find it remarkable how well the poor are able to make ends meet.

Perhaps GoodEnough suggested the best explanation for the second paradox. The Filipinos have a social network in which everyone lends money to everyone else. This doesn’t produce any net gain, but if you don’t spend your money right away you’ll be obligated to give it away to someone else. The person who has nothing can ask for help, so it’s better to have nothing.

To the first paradox, Cebu Local suggested installment plans, but what would prevent someone from running away with a new cell phone without having paid for it? Or how would one force someone to make payments who doesn’t have any money? However, the explanation is logical in that it shows how something can be obtained for no payment. Bartering would be another example of this type of explanation because it shows that the overall expenses are less than what one would expect.

A second type of explanation involves a hidden source of income as Fastpiston suggested. I think his explanation resolves most of the paradox. It would be an interesting social experiment to outlaw sending money back home and to observe if the economy would continue to support all the fast food places, the compulsive text messaging, Bingo halls, and movie theaters.

A third type of explanation would be to argue that Filipinos only appear to consume a lot on the surface. An example would be to argue that the typical family will starve for several days when they run out of funds, but continues spending money on expensive items to make it appear like they are well off.

Whatever the explanations may be, I would like to argue that the Filipinos’ carefree spending habits make them saner than those who live in wealthier countries. Since money by itself has no meaning or value, it is only sensible to exchange it for something meaningful whenever possible. Even when they make questionable choices in their purchases, they are avoiding the more foolish mistake of saving it in order to derive pleasure from the mere possession of something. The Filipinos spend what they earn and therefore live good lives.

The high-income earners, on the other hand, cannot possibly spend all the money they earn in a way that is personally meaningful. The sane remedy would be to work less and to enjoy more leisure time. Quite on the contrary, the more we earn (think doctors, lawyers, and engineers), the harder we tend to work and the more stressed we tend to be.

Modern technology has increased productivity to the point where the only way to keep us all working 40 hours a week is to invent huge industries that make each other necessary, but provide no meaningful value to us. As an example, observe how efficient the transportation system is in Manila compared to Los Angeles, which to my knowledge is the city most dominated by private transportation in the whole world.

In LA, private transportation keeps many people employed from car salesmen and auto mechanics to insurance agents and construction workers. Yet all the “work” they do doesn’t improve life. The use of jeepneys would reduce air pollution and relieve traffic congestion and would allow the city to shrink (by removing unneeded parking lots and roads) so that less transportation is needed in the first place.

By buying houses and cars with our money, we are doing precisely what I praise the Filipinos for not doing. We are deriving pleasure from the mere possession of something. The ownership, in turn, creates more responsibility and work for us, which are in addition to working full-time. I conclude that the citizens of developed countries work more for less and must therefore be considered more insane than the Filipinos.

A great example of such an insane person is myself. I truly believe in the conclusion I have drawn and yet I continue to work like I’ve been deprived of my wits. I have no need to work, yet I work because I have nothing better to do with my time and money. I have been trained and taught my whole life to live to work, and now I can’t seem to find a way to stop.

**Fastpiston** · 05-18-05 08:38

Has anyone any news of budget airlines flying the MNL BKK route? If so kindly give details. I heard that a Thai budget airline was going to do the route in the near future?

**Fastpiston** · 05-18-05 08:30

Most funds used to buy cars, mobiles, house and lots comes principally from remittances sent by Philippine people working abroad and to a lesser extent, from foreign men. Major sectors of the economy live on this flow, namely retail trade, banks and real estate.

**GoodEnough** · 05-18-05 00:44

I'm not sure that Western logic exists here, even as a theoretical concept, and I am relatively certain that there's no understanding whatsoever of the laws of cause and effect. The absence of any paradigm that makes sense to Westerners makes this a difficult country to understand and I often say that the longer I live here the less I truly "get it."

Unlike the more developed countries, there's no system of ready credit here, but I've noticed an informal system of paying on time. As far as I can see, basically everyone owes money to everyone else, and the money is repaid in dribs and drabs. This may explain the expensive cell phone phenomonon. There's also very little here in the way of preplanning. I've said before that for a typical Filipina, long range planning is deciding at breakfast what you might like to have for dinner. I don't know if this is because day-to-day survival is such a hassle for most people that planning is an irrelevant concept, or if there's something deeper in the culture that discourages thinking ahead. This whole place functions on the basis of a "let's see what tomorrow brings" philosophy.

The lack of any planned follow through is also reflected in the politics (and politicians) of the country, which are characterized by the highly-publicized announcement of grandiose plans, few if any of which are actually implemented...ever. That's why it's possible for the President to announce a major fiscal crisis one month, and three or four months later announce that because of the effective government programs put in place less than six months ago, the crisis has abated. It's all pure crap, but people pretend at least to believe it.

In short, this is a place ruled almost entirely by fatalistic impulsiveness the best metaphor of which is probably the erratic behavior of drivers in Davao and elsewhere.

:D

GE

**Cebu Local** · 05-18-05 00:43

Originally Posted by Sugoi

I've wondered about a lot of those things too. Everyone seems to have a cell phone with a camera but the last time I looked, they go for about 5000+. Considering that a decent monthly salary is about 10,000, that's half of their monthly income. Many people have phones that are even nicer than that. That's like saying if the AVERAGE monthly income is $3000/month in the US that someone would spend $1500 on a cell phone.

I am sure that most of us make much more than that and we would never consider spending $1500 on a cell phone...

they can buy them on installment plans of up to 2 years to pay,Thats why they can afford them

**Ilongo_boy** · 05-17-05 14:40

Other than cell phones, Philippines is also the capital for network marketing AKA pyramid schemes. I hate to generalize but it seems that majority always want the 'get rich quick' scheme where at the same time it took them so long to save all that money only to throw it all away.

But at the end of the day, you can'te blame them given that they probobly only had elementary education and don't know the basics. Its a country where the rich keeps getting richer and smaller and the middle class and the poor keeps getting larger and the purchasing power of the peso gets weaker.

IB

**Sugoi** · 05-17-05 09:39

I've wondered about a lot of those things too. Everyone seems to have a cell phone with a camera but the last time I looked, they go for about 5000+. Considering that a decent monthly salary is about 10,000, that's half of their monthly income. Many people have phones that are even nicer than that. That's like saying if the AVERAGE monthly income is $3000/month in the US that someone would spend $1500 on a cell phone.

I am sure that most of us make much more than that and we would never consider spending $1500 on a cell phone...

**Member #1005** · 05-17-05 09:01

Pure Logic

I don’t think you can ever understand the mind of a Philippino 100%, I agree that when I am there walking in the sunshine is one of the few things I actually enjoy. But to do this with a local they think you’re mad. In Makati I walked several times to Ayala Mall a journey of no more than 20 minutes, but if I had someone with me, this was nearly impossible. I managed this once dragging the girl from every passing jeepney, maybe they think only poor people walk.

In Angeles city, I would walk to Robinsons Mall there is not much up there to do in AC but it helps to pass 15 minutes in the sunshine listening to music. I have also stayed with a Philippino family in Butuan City, Mindanoa in the late 80’s and despite thinking I understood them I still find I am learning something new every day.

What always strikes me is that when you take them out instead of drinking freshly squeezed fruit juice or boco (coconut) water (which is expensive here) what do they want, a bottle of coca cola, which in some places is more expensive than the natural – better for you alternatives. When some of these girls do have a little money on them they don’t tend to have the mind-set to spend some, save a bit for later (a rainy day) – but instead fritter it all away, as fast as you can, then remain broke until they have money again. Ask yourself, how many girls have you ever met who actually have a bank account in the Philippines? And I am talking about middle class girls I know, who don’t have bank accounts.

Juniour

**Pure Logic** · 05-17-05 07:12

It was in the Philippines, in the modest home of a woman in Zambales, that I saw a DVD for the first time. “It looks just like a CD,” I remarked. She replied that I should know since I live in the US and have worked in the electronics industry for many years. I told her that I don’t even own a radio or a TV and that the cell phone I used to communicate to her was the first one I ever had.

When I depart, she wants me to take the tricycle or jeepney. I tell her I’ve been sitting all day and need to walk for a while. Whenever I go somewhere with a Filipina and we walk for a minute or two to reach the next jeepney stop or whatever, she asks if it’s ok to walk. The idea is that since I’m rich, I’m probably used to going everywhere by car and that taking 100 steps using my own feet must be demeaning.

In my view, the noise and pollution caused by tricycles and the benefit of physical exercise is enough reason to view walking as the nobler means of transportation. Yet it makes sense to me that someone might view motorized transport as more modern and prestigious and thus walk only when there is no alternative. What doesn’t make sense to me is how tricycles can fit in the budget of the average Filipino.

Paying 15P to save yourself a 10 minute walk or 30P to save yourself a 20 minute walk seems nonsensical, and that is ignoring the fact that foot traffic sometimes moves faster. When you try to support multiple people on a 10000P/month salary, most of that would have to go to pay for transportation. When I observe how Filipinos spend money on food, I conclude that most of it must go to pay for food. It seems at least 20-30% of income is needed to pay for rent and utilities. From what I’ve seen, 10% seems like a conservative estimate for how much is spent on cell phones. Perhaps 20% goes to pay for gifts, presents, celebrations, not to mention weddings. And there’s the school tuition to pay for and the alcohol and cigarettes. Filipinos don’t skimp on pharmaceuticals either. Regular visits to the barber for 30-40P are in the budget as well. And don’t the women use pantiliners?

I am fortunate to have lived with a lower-class Filipino family for about a month in a self-made home with no plumbing. As a result, I know of other types of expenses that I wouldn’t otherwise have thought of.

The family would purchase all items in small quantities. For example, detergent, shampoo, cigarettes, toilet paper, or candy are purchased in single use packages or one at a time from a neighbor’s store, making the price a little higher than at the supermarket. (I wouldn’t be surprised if the neighbor actually buys the items at the supermarket and then resells them locally for a profit.)

Every couple of days, the lottery guy would come by to announce some winning number and to collect the new bets. This lottery is not a true game of chance, but based on the stories I heard, it seems they’ll let you win on purpose the first or second time you play to convince you that it’s a game worth playing and to get you hooked. This simple trick is remarkably effective.

The most interesting surprise, however, was that the husband, a driver by profession and the breadwinner of the family, had been spending half his salary on another woman for several years. He would go out with her on weekends with the excuse that he had to work overtime.

Can the Filipinos’ ability to spend more money than they have be explained? When I brought up this question to one of the girls I met in the Philippines, she said, that’s why you have to pray to God and hope for the best.

My friends and acquaintances in the US appear to be much more sensible with regard to personal finance. They’re savvy enough to shop around for good deals and are sensitive to prices of smaller ticket items such as gasoline and food. They have at least ten times the income. With superior money management skills and higher income, one would expect them to lead better lives. As far as I can tell, Americans work longer and harder and have less leisure. The least we could do is retire at a young age or work only part of the year.