American Politics

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;3072637]Maybe you can stop with the simple taxes / tariffs are bad m'kay attitude you both have. Let's start with the simple numbers. Average tax rate on American goods sent to China per Gemini is 31%. Before Trump, 40% of packages coming from China were taxed at a rate of 0% as they qualified for the de minimums option.

I had a sugar baby ask me to buy her some lingerie stuff from Shein and I was blown away at how cheap the prices were and at the quality. So of course, Victoria's Secret went bankrupt competing with Shein.

But, but, but prices are going to up if you put tariffs on lingerie, Elvis. Big Fucking deal. Then I buy my sugar baby two sets of lingerie instead of three. If higher prices sabotage demand, then higher prices will not hold.

Then look at the automobile market. Oh brother! If the dumb Dems applied their anti tariff rhetoric to the auto industry, they would lose every presidential election for the next 100 years. Withdrawing tariffs would let the Chinese dump their 🚘 into our market which would be devastating to the middle class in the rust belt states.

And China forced the world's automakers to pair with a Chinese company to access the auto market in China. This was done such that the Chinese could steal the secrets of those companies and then produce autos on their own. At first, their cars sucked, but now the Chinese cars are fantastic. Of course, the CCP is in massive debt and subsidizing every Chinese vehicle sold.

So the Chinese plan with cars was to steal the technology of foreign rivals and then use dirt cheap labor and government subsidies to drive down the price of cars so low that you put your competitors out of business and then jack up the prices of your cars when there is no alternative. Tariffs are in place to stop the Chinese from committing this evil plan.

But tariffs are taxes, Elvis, M'kay. Well, if you have all the auto companies going out of business and all their workers going on unemployment, everyone's taxes in the USA are going to go up to support their unemployment ETC which means fewer $ in YOUR pocket.

I don't get why anyone thinks China taxing us at 31% and our taxing China at 0% is a good idea. The Dems were just against tariffs because Trump was for them. Like everything else, the current Democratic position is whatever Trump is for, do the opposite no matter how stupid it is.[/QUOTE]First, yeah, Democrats used to favor tariffs more than Republicans and the fact they don't now has a lot to do with Trump favoring them.

Trade is not a zero sum game. Both sides win. In trade wars both sides lose. Trump's escalation of tariffs on China in 2025 made about as much sense as Hamas' attack on Israel in October, 2023.

In 2024, Chinese exports to the USA as a % of its GDP were 2.8%, very small. Trump didn't have as much leverage as he thought over the Chinese. On the other hand, the USA was almost totally dependent on China for various raw materials and products, like rare earth compounds, rare earth magnets, certain metals and batteries, semiconductor inputs and drugs. China had the USA by the balls.

So in 2025, Trump goes and escalates the headline tariffs on China to 145%. China retaliates with higher tariffs on American goods and shuts off certain essential exports to the USA. Fortunately Trump's not nearly as inflexible as Hamas, and China's not nearly as hard ass as Israel, so both sides backed down. But China could have decimated our defense, auto and tech industries for at least 2 or 3 years. The USA did not have the cards.

In 2017 before Trump started the First Trade War, China's trade weighted average tariff on USA goods was 3.8%. The USA's weighted average on Chinese goods was 1. 66%. As you said, the Chinese average tariff on USA goods now sits at 31.9%, and the USA's tariff on Chinese goods sits at 47.5%.

So did the Trade Wars bring China to its knees? Did they help increase USA manufacturing output? Did they reduce the USA Trade deficit? Hell no to all.

At the start of all this, in 2016, 18.4% of Chinese exports were to the USA. Meaning about 81.6% were to the rest of the world. Yes, the figure has gone down to 11% from 18.4%. But China just started exporting more to the rest of the world and less to the USA. Chinese exports have risen about 60%, after adjusting for inflation, since 2016.

USA Manufacturing value added in 2016 was 10.8% as a % of GDP. Now it's 9.4%. Most research indicates America's manufacturing output is probably now LESS than it would be without the Trade Wars. The tariffs raised costs for USA Factories that use imports, making them less competitive.

And as to the trade deficit, it was 2.7% of GDP in 2016, and now it's about 2.9%. The trade deficit has gone up.

I actually know a little about Victoria's Secret and the viability of shoe manufacturing in the USA. Not so much about EV's though, certainly not compared to you or Spidy. You have some misconceptions. I'll be back with more later.

This is a forum about sex after all, and it's all tariffs this, and economics that! The reflecting pool is neon green like mountain dew. Just enjoy it!

Anyway, who's buying NFLX stock this week? I'm tellin ya guys, it's bottoming. This is it. Sell all your damn crypto and go all in on NFLX. You won't regret it.

You'll be thanking me in 4 months. It's around the low 70's now, in the next coupla months it'll be in the 115 range, just you wait. Even polymarket will have to agree soon enough.

This is not GME or AMC or any of those stupid to the moon ape nonsense.

How do you like them apples?

I hope all 49% of the American electorate that voted for Trump or some useless third party candidate that still helped Trump win has been riding the wave of the one bright spot in Trump's otherwise dismal 2nd term economy; the USA Stock Market "chugging along" thanks to Joe Biden, Kamala Harris and the Dems in Congress seeing to it that Biden's 2022 CHIPS and Science Act was passed to put America and Americans First.

At least the first year and one more quarter of Trump's 2nd term he could coast on the stimulative benefit of that legislation. But going forward? Nobody knows. Incoming Repub presidents rarely coast on the tremendous positive economic trajectories they inherit from the outgoing Dem much more than a year before they finally have to pass something themselves that inevitably crashes the economy. So it could be the lingering negative effects of Trump's Big Beautiful Abomination Bill for Billionaires and Fuck Everyone Else will continue to provide enough downward pressure to do it.

And his across-the-board tariffs, which, as I fully documented at the time, are known to start increasing prices all through the supply-chains just from a potus promising or threatening to enact them, months before any of them are actually enacted. That's how it works in the Real World, folks. Put away your academic theories.

And then there's Trump's "anti-Biden" immigration policies. Which studies have proven to depress the creation of private-sector jobs for USA Citizens, increase the rate of inflation and the price of almost everything.

Oh well.

We tried.

Hey, we've even got another "Worst since a previous Repub economic disaster" citation in there! LOL. See it highlighted.

[B]U.S. economy added 57,000 jobs in June, less than expected; unemployment rate at 4.2%[/B]

[URL]https://www.cnbc.com/2026/07/02/jobs-report-june-2026-.html?__source=androidappshare[/URL]

[QUOTE]The U.S. economy saw job creation cool sharply heading into the summer, the Bureau of Labor Statistics reported Thursday.

Nonfarm payrolls for June increased by a seasonally adjusted 57,000 for the month, slower than the downwardly revised 129,000 added in May and worse than the 115,000 Dow Jones consensus forecast.

The move lower was largely due to a slump in the labor force participation rate, which dropped 0.3 percentage point to 61.5%, [b]the lowest since March 2021.[/b] Household employment plummeted during the month, with 507,000 fewer people reported at work. A broader unemployment measure that includes discouraged workers and those holding part-time jobs for economic reasons declined by 0.2 percentage point to 7.9%.

Prior months also saw significant downward revisions the May total, which had been much stronger than economists had anticipated, was cut by 43,000, while Aprils figure came down 31,000 to 148,000 as the report showed labor market growth significantly slower than previously thought.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Canada;3072453]Project was great and the refurbishment went well. Actually is was too good prompting the jealous Democrats to vandalize the pool. Now 7 Democrats have been arrested for vandalism and will be spending several years in prison. That is the way the violent Democrats operate. Not something you should be proud of.[/QUOTE]While China targets 40% penetration for new-energy heavy trucks by 2030, is developing breakthrough clean-tech sodium-ion battery for heavy-duty trucks, a technology that could dramatically reduce dependence on diesel while lowering battery costs for the world's trucking sectors, the United States faces yet another wave of bankruptcies, especially in the freight and trucking industries.

So while electrostates like China is developing clean-tech, that helps the freight and trucking industries solve their business economics, [B]the MAGA Fuhrer, again, "fiddles" in bogus conspiracies, this time it's "reflecting pool conspiracies". [/B] Meanwhile trucking companies go bankrupt at rate 31% higher in early 2026 than during the same period in 2025, from his US / Israel war against Iran.

FAW (FAW Jiefang, China) just recently completed a successful 15,000 km, seven-month real-world test of a heavy-duty semi-truck powered by a 339 kWh sodium-ion battery pack developed with HiNa Battery Technology [URL]https://battery-tech.net/battery-markets-news/faw-jiefang-completes-15000-km-sodium-ion-heavy-truck-trial/[/URL]

2026 the Year of the Battery.

[QUOTE=NewtonYork;3072778][b]All this trade talk is so boring [/b]

This is a forum about sex after all, and it's all tariffs this, and economics that![/QUOTE][B][i]Boring?... to some maybe! [/i][/B] But, not to MAGA folks like Tiny 12 and Elvis 2008, for all their their talk, bloviation and artificial praise surrounding the MAGA Fuhrer's so called slight uptick in GDP, since he took office, I wouldn't call it boring at all. I thought, if anything it was mildly amusing!

Meaning, it is going to be ridiculously hilarious, to watch MAGA Repubs, sell a [I]"slight uptick in GDP",[/I] their beleaguered voters and constituents, facing (1) higher grocery prices, (2) electrical bills, (3) gas / diesel prices, (4) unaffordable housing and (5) mortgage rates, (6) the billions of in "pick-pocketed" or (7) wasted taxpayer money on reflecting pools, from (8) an out-of-control and corrupt MAGA admin, as the toll of (9) unwanted death and injuries to their beloved sons and daughters mount from (10) multiple illegal and unsanctioned wars.

It should be very interesting as Repubs sell that [I]"slight uptick in GDP",[/I] piece of inconsequential Trumponomics data point, to voters come November. Yeah, can't wait to see how that goes over with voters!

[QUOTE=NewtonYork;3072778]The reflecting pool is neon green like mountain dew. Just enjoy it![/QUOTE]LOL! Perhaps the MAGA Fuhrer should have just poured Mountain Dew in the pool, instead of again wasting tens of millions of tax payers money on yet another vanity project, to payback and payoff his rich cronies.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;3072727]First, yeah, Democrats used to favor tariffs more than Republicans and the fact they don't now has a lot to do with Trump favoring them.

Trade is not a zero sum game. Both sides win. In trade wars both sides lose. Trump's escalation of tariffs on China in 2025 made about as much sense as Hamas' attack on Israel in October, 2023.

In 2024, Chinese exports to the USA as a % of its GDP were 2.8%, very small. Trump didn't have as much leverage as he thought over the Chinese. On the other hand, the USA was almost totally dependent on China for various raw materials and products, like rare earth compounds, rare earth magnets, certain metals and batteries, semiconductor inputs and drugs. China had the USA by the balls.

So in 2025, Trump goes and escalates the headline tariffs on China to 145%. China retaliates with higher tariffs on American goods and shuts off certain essential exports to the USA. Fortunately Trump's not nearly as inflexible as Hamas, and China's not nearly as hard ass as Israel, so both sides backed down. But China could have decimated our defense, auto and tech industries for at least 2 or 3 years. The USA did not have the cards.

In 2017 before Trump started the First Trade War, China's trade weighted average tariff on USA goods was 3.8%. The USA's weighted average on Chinese goods was 1. 66%. As you said, the Chinese average tariff on USA goods now sits at 31.9%, and the USA's tariff on Chinese goods sits at 47.5%.

So did the Trade Wars bring China to its knees? Did they help increase USA manufacturing output? Did they reduce the USA Trade deficit? Hell no to all.

At the start of all this, in 2016, 18.4% of Chinese exports were to the USA. Meaning about 81.6% were to the rest of the world. Yes, the figure has gone down to 11% from 18.4%. But China just started exporting more to the rest of the world and less to the USA. Chinese exports have risen about 60%, after adjusting for inflation, since 2016..[/QUOTE][QUOTE=Tiny12;3072727]Trade is not a zero sum game. Both sides win. In trade wars both sides lose.[/QUOTE]Yes, I know that is what is taught in university classes. Look at tariffs that exist on Chinese cars. I do not see two sides. I see the American consumer, American government, Chinese government, autoworkers, auto suppliers ETC. That economists limit sides to just two shows that their agenda and argument is restricted to government sides.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;3072727]Trump didn't have as much leverage as he thought over the Chinese. On the other hand, the USA was almost totally dependent on China for various raw materials and products, like rare earth compounds, rare earth magnets, certain metals and batteries, semiconductor inputs and drugs. China had the USA by the balls.[/QUOTE]And here you go contradicting your own argument. Hey, let's just leave production of key goods and services to China and the CCCP where it is cheaper. Both sides win right? China gets jobs, and the American consumer pays less. Whoops!

What really cracks me up though is how many Americans and Europeans just suck up the Chinese and Russian propaganda. Handing over our supply chain to China and the CCCP was not a win for the USA, yet your are selling it as that. You bought all the Chinese and Fauci propagnda about how Covid came from nature and how great the vaccine was. Meanwhile, while China neglgiently let Covid out and lied about how badly Covid was spreading, they let it be known that if you blamed them at all for anything related to the pandemic, they would shut off sales of personal protective equipment or PPE. Hell, we had some Dems saying blaming China for Covid was racist. Of all Tooms anti-American acts and statements, the absolute worst was calling the Covid pandemic Trump's pandemic when in reality, it was Fauci's and China's.

Meanwhile, you got Spidy bragging about China and its clean air and being an electrostate utopia. China is the world's worst polluter and he brags about how they are all in on clean energy. You cannot make this stuff up. Yes, by all means, let's keep buying all these Chinese solar panels and windmills and give up on producing energy on our own, and we once more have universities and climate scientist experts telling us how great that will be for our future. Buying Chinese solar panels and windmills is a win-win too right?

What Russia did to Europe could not have worked better if they had gone to war. Europe's initial reaction to the 1974 oil embargo was to become more self sufficient in energy, and they did so with remarkable efficiency. France in particular went all in on nukes. So the Russians finance the greenies who convince their voters to give up their nuclear power plants. Then Russia and China fund the climate change agenda and Europe changes over from nukes to solar panels and wind mills from China and natural gas from Russia. Amazingly, Europe does this while letting China build all the coal plants it wants because China is third world and poor.

Now we have the Dems and Europe telling us how evil Putin is. Europe is doing this while buying natural gas from Putin and having followed enegy policies beneficial to Russia for the last 20 years. Yeah, we need to spend more to save Europe from Putin while Europe is continuing to line Putin's pockets with money.

But seeing things with your own eyes is the ultimate rebuke of propaganda. I do not know if Trump imagined that the World Cup would do more to make a mockery of the European media than anything else, but it has. Europeans have seen that they are being lied to and have been learning among other things that AC is just not convenient but life saving. Reports in the media are saying that Europe has 4 X the number of deaths from heat stroke than America has people dying from gun violence. [URL]https://www.newsweek.com/europe-heat-wave-deaths-record-breaking-temperatures-american-gun-deaths-12110514[/URL]

And yet here we have a European dupe on here bragging about how Europe does not have AC.

Thing is I were alerted to how awesome Chinese vehicles were by somehow who sells cars for a living. Ford was terrified at how good and cheap Chinese cars were and what I saw what they were producing and how cheap the cars were, I was like, "Damn, I want one. "

But the hurdles to buying a Chinese car and bringing it to the USA are so high that for most it is not practical. Those are tariffs in action and despite all the Dems and their tariff bluster, no Dem is calling for the removal of tariffs on Chinese cars. So when I hear about people going off on Trump for tariffs, it is more TDS. Why are Trump tariffs bad but automotive tariffs good? Aren't automotive tariffs taxes too?

China is like 40% of all car sales in Chile and they are blowing away the competition in Mexico too. People raved about their Geelys and BYDs when I was in Mexico, and that is not even counting the more obscure Chinese brands. If you remove the tariffs, in the short term, the USA wins as we have lower prices and inflation from cheaper goods. However, long term, you are shipping your entire automotive base to China and putting American automotive workers on the street. And you are saying that is win-win and Trump is crazy? Come on, Tiny, open your eyes.

[QUOTE=Spidy;3072883][B][i]Boring?... to some maybe! [/i][/B] But, not to MAGA folks like Tiny 12 and Elvis 2008, for all their their talk, bloviation and artificial praise surrounding the MAGA Fuhrer's so called slight uptick in GDP, since he took office, I wouldn't call it boring at all. I thought, if anything it was mildly amusing!

Meaning, it is going to be ridiculously hilarious, to watch MAGA Repubs, sell a [I]"slight uptick in GDP",[/I] their beleaguered voters and constituents, facing (1) higher grocery prices, (2) electrical bills, (3) gas / diesel prices, (4) unaffordable housing and (5) mortgage rates, (6) the billions of in "pick-pocketed" or (7) wasted taxpayer money on reflecting pools, from (8) an out-of-control and corrupt MAGA admin, as the toll of (9) unwanted death and injuries to their beloved sons and daughters mount from (10) multiple illegal and unsanctioned wars.

It should be very interesting as Repubs sell that [I]"slight uptick in GDP",[/I] piece of inconsequential Trumponomics data point, to voters come November. Yeah, can't wait to see how that goes over with voters!

LOL! Perhaps the MAGA Fuhrer should have just poured Mountain Dew in the pool, instead of again wasting tens of millions of tax payers money on yet another vanity project, to payback and payoff his rich cronies.[/QUOTE]It happens more often than I have time to point out but we should not overlook the fact that in this economic result report we got a Daily Double dose of the ever popular "Worst results since a previous Repub economic disaster" citation!

[B]Labor force participation rate falls to lowest in 50 years, outside of Covid era[/B]

[URL]https://www.cnbc.com/2026/07/02/job-seekers-giving-up-labor-force-participation-rate-falls-to-lowest-in-50-years-outside-of-covid-era.html?__source=androidappshare[/URL]

[QUOTE]Junes drop in the unemployment rate was because of an exodus of workers from the labor force.

The labor force participation rate, which measures the working-age population of those either employed or looking for a job, fell to 61.5%, the [b]lowest since March 2021[/b], according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Excluding the Covid-era jobs market, it was the [b]lowest participation rate since June 1976.[/b]

The labor force plummeted by 720,000 in June.[/QUOTE]See the highlighted portions citing the "Worst since" Repub Trump's Pandemic economic disaster handed to Dem Joe Biden to fix AND since what would have been Repub Nixon's last year of his 2nd term as potus but was instead presided over by a Repub replacement for obvious reasons as it was handed to Dem Jimmy Carter to fix.

As always, that's pretty exciting info for anyone interested in stocking up on inarguable reasons why a vote for anyone but Dems up and down every ballot in every election is in reality a vote AGAINST great economic recoveries, great economic expansions, historic jobs creation, Peace and Prosperity and is instead a vote FOR another Great Repub Depression, another Great Repub Recession, another historic Repub jobs destruction or more Quagmire, Forever Repub Wars of Choice Based on a Repub Lie for America.

At least in those two examples it turned out to be the final year the Repub president could do serious damage to America before the incoming Dem was brought in to clean up and fix the colossal mess of everything he had made. Unfortunately, the sad news this time around is that Trump has another 2 1/2 years left to continue making a greater and greater colossal mess of everything before that blessed moment a Dem comes in to clean it up and fix it.

If it can be cleaned up and fixed this time around, that is.

That is not certain, of course. Repubs have honed their skills and have gotten better and better at destroying the American economy, national security and foreign relations in so many new and unprecedented ways over the past 100 years it is inevitable that if the American Electorate keeps giving them time and opportunities to get better and better at it they will eventually arrive at a point of accomplishing insurmountable damage to America. And these most recent couple of opportunities the Electorate has given Trump have been whoppers. Even an incoming Dem might not be able to clean up and fix the colossal mess of everthing this particular icon of all iconic classic Conservative Repubs has done and will continue to do over the next 2 1/2 years.

Oh well.

We tried.

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;3072927]Thing is I were alerted to how awesome Chinese vehicles were by somehow who sells cars for a living. Ford was terrified at how good and cheap Chinese cars were and what I saw what they were producing and how cheap the cars were, I was like, "Damn, I want one. "

But the hurdles to buying a Chinese car and bringing it to the USA are so high that for most it is not practical. Those are tariffs in action and despite all the Dems and their tariff bluster, no Dem is calling for the removal of tariffs on Chinese cars. So when I hear about people going off on Trump for tariffs, it is more TDS. Why are Trump tariffs bad but automotive tariffs good? Aren't automotive tariffs taxes too?

China is like 40% of all car sales in Chile and they are blowing away the competition in Mexico too. People raved about their Geelys and BYDs when I was in Mexico, and that is not even counting the more obscure Chinese brands. If you remove the tariffs, in the short term, the USA wins as we have lower prices and inflation from cheaper goods.[/QUOTE]All countries protect their industries. They do it here in Thailand. [U]CFMoto[/U] a Chinese company that make excellent motorcycles cannot be bought here in Thailand. There are two other companies manufacturing motorcycles here in Thailand so they protect those companies. I would like to buy a [U]CFMoto[/U] model here in Thailand but I can neither buy one here nor import it for a reasonable cost.

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;3072927]However, long term, you are shipping your entire automotive base to China and putting American automotive workers on the street.[/QUOTE]When Dis United States of America Car companies are protected from competition then the Dis United States of America Consumer gets hurt. [B]You have to buy a lower quality vehicle and pay more for it[/B].

[QUOTE=SubCmdr;3072939]All countries protect their industries. They do it here in Thailand. [U]CFMoto[/U] a Chinese company that make excellent motorcycles cannot be bought here in Thailand. There are two other companies manufacturing motorcycles here in Thailand so they protect those companies. I would like to buy a [U]CFMoto[/U] model here in Thailand but I can neither buy one here nor import it for a reasonable cost.

When Dis United States of America Car companies are protected from competition then the Dis United States of America Consumer gets hurt. [B]You have to buy a lower quality vehicle and pay more for it[/B].[/QUOTE]Have you looked at Chinese four wheel EV's in Thailand? The last time I looked they could be imported into Thailand duty free. And the excise or sales tax on BEV's was very low. The Chinese EV manufacturers had to agree to build factories in Thailand to get the tariff and excise tax exemptions, which I think will phase out. Anyway, I'the think they'the be very good values.

Thailand's a pro at this. It traditionally was #2 in the world in pickup manufacturing and exports, after the USA. They did that by maintaining high tariffs and excise taxes on most imported vehicles. But the excise tax on the pickups was very low. Also the Thais encouraged investment in factories by providing exemptions from income tax and import duties (for equipment and the like) that phased out as the factories got older. Perhaps most importantly, unlike say Indonesia or Thailand, they created conditions that encouraged foreigners, like Ford and Isuzu and Toyota, to invest in Thailand. You weren't required by law to have a local partner. And the country wasn't so corrupt that you needed a local partner to bribe government officials. They tried something similar later with the ecocars, which were very small gasoline powered vehicles, that didn't work out as well. But their pickup manufacturing is still world class. And extremely competitive, as a number of manufacturers made Thailand their base for pickups.

About the last part, of your post, I agree. If you jack tariffs up to ridiculous levels on imported EV's, the USA industry will become fat and lazy, like it was before the Japanese started competing. Detroit produces much better quality cars at prices that are lower than they'the be otherwise in part because of competition by foreigners. It's reasonable to argue that anti-dumping duties, that are proportional to subsidies received by the foreigners from their governments, make sense. Or you could argue the electronics in electric vehicles could make them a security risk so you need to control for that. But allowing USA Companies to get fat and lazy by shutting out the Chinese and other foreigners entirely hurts the American consumer and the nation. Elvis and Spidy noted the USA fell far behind China in BEV's, and they're not going to get their mojo back without foreign competition.

Tariffs and subsidies sometimes make sense, but they are often used to benefit rent seeking elites at the expense of the consumer.

Your inbox is full BTW, you probably need to delete some messages.

Elvis, Victoria's Secret and Shen both get what they sell from Asian manufacturers. Neither is a manufacturer. Undoubtedly they source some of their products from the same factories. Victoria's Secret is owned by an Australian, Brett Blundy, and a number of USA And foreign institutions. Shen is owned by a Singapore national (and former PRC national) along with USA institutional investors and the UAE sovereign wealth fund. Victoria's Secret is mostly bricks and mortar and sells a higher quality product. Shen sells mostly online. If it's kicking VS's ass, it's for the same reason Amazon is kicking everybody else's ass.

The company that I believe is the largest supplier of expandable fabric and lace for Victoria's Secret products is domiciled in Hong Kong and, say, fifteen years ago produced the majority of its output in China. It also had a factory in Vietnam, which catered to Japanese brands because of tariff advantages. The company was nimble, so when Trump first imposed tariffs on China it ramped up Vietnamese production. Now they produce more from Vietnam than they do from China.

Fabric manufacturing requires a lot of capex. The company had to build additional factories in Vietnam, and hire workers who initially weren't very productive. Its supply chain (yarn and dye suppliers, etc.) was spread out and inefficient. A huge investment in Vietnam was incurred because of the tariffs, and I guess Vietnamese workers benefitted. The USA consumer sure didn't. She had to pay higher prices.

So then later on Liberation Day, April 2, 2025, Trump jacks up tariffs on Vietnam to 46%. WTF? So now what's the manufacturer supposed to do? Start building factories in Mexico and Brazil? Then how long before Trump raises the tariff on that country?

The fabric manufacturer passes its production onto a garment manufacturer. Garment manufacturing, like shoe manufacturing, is labor intensive. Maybe around 20% of the cost of gross sales is labor. The work to make garments, and shoes and toys and cheap electronics, is painstaking and repetitive. Americans don't want to do it, any more than they want to work in meat processing plants, to use SubCmdr's example. If you visit an Asian factory it would probably change your mind.

Someone told you he could set up a factory in the USA and manufacture shoes for $6 or $9 a pair or something. Unless he was talking about one piece, mickey mouse molded shoes he was blowing smoke. They, like garments, require a lot of labor. Yeah, maybe someday with AI and humanoid robots like what Tesla and Xpeng are trying to make, you will be able to lower the labor cost a lot. Until then, when the unemployment rate is 4. 2%, and when contrary to Tooms and Spidy's opinion, almost all Americans who want a job have one, why would you want to move this production to the USA? You don't want to take people away from higher value added work. We've got the highest GDP per capita in the world for any large country, by far. You don't want to slash productivity by making people assemble Iphones instead of Boeing aircraft.

For the other businesses in the textile production chain, like manufacture of artificial fiber, dyes, yarn, and fabrics, labor content isn't so high. But try building these plants in 2026 in the USA given the environmental and permitting restrictions. Yes, Trump has helped in this area, a lot. But still, why reinvent the wheel, especially when the end stage of the process, garment manufacturing, will never make sense in America?

I did a search in the political forum of another hoe board, and I was sounding the alarm about rare earth minerals back in 2018. I absolutely favor and favored subsidies and sensible tariffs to ensure access to strategic rare earth minerals, and essential products in general. I'the go a step further and tell the "not in my backyard" crowd to fuck off. Otherwise you may never see significant mining and processing of rare earths in the USA.

I'm not inclined to argue about cars. I said a few things relevant to your comments in a reply to SubCmdr. I've already shot my wad there, as you and Spidy know a lot more about Chinese BEV's than I do. I will say that trying to move the supply chain out of Mexico and Canada and entirely into the USA is nuts. Hopefully Trump's backed off that idea, if he ever had it in the first place. I'm not sure he did.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;3073025]Have you looked at Chinese four wheel EV's in Thailand? The last time I looked they could be imported into Thailand duty free. And the excise or sales tax on BEV's was very low. The Chinese EV manufacturers had to agree to build factories in Thailand to get the tariff and excise tax exemptions, which I think will phase out. Anyway, I'the think they'the be very good values.

Thailand's a pro at this. It traditionally was #2 in the world in pickup manufacturing and exports, after the USA. They did that by maintaining high tariffs and excise taxes on most imported vehicles. But the excise tax on the pickups was very low. Also the Thais encouraged investment in factories by providing exemptions from income tax and import duties (for equipment and the like) that phased out as the factories got older. Perhaps most importantly, unlike say Indonesia or Thailand, they created conditions that encouraged foreigners, like Ford and Isuzu and Toyota, to invest in Thailand. You weren't required by law to have a local partner. And the country wasn't so corrupt that you needed a local partner to bribe government officials. They tried something similar later with the ecocars, which were very small gasoline powered vehicles, that didn't work out as well. But their pickup manufacturing is still world class. And extremely competitive, as a number of manufacturers made Thailand their base for pickups..[/QUOTE]For the heads up! My mailbox was indeed full. Simply not paying any attention to it.

I agree with you the Chinese EVs are an excellent value. But I don't want one. Need a motorcycle because of traffic and a desire to ride. But your point is accurate. BTW, I can by a motor scooter made by the China man. And I actually own a two wheeled EV made in Thailand by a Thai Company. It's fine. But I don't like the battery tech. Guess I am just old school. Living an apartment, charging requirements prevent me from owning a four wheeled EV and the larger 2 wheeled ones.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;3073026]Elvis, Victoria's Secret and Shen both get what they sell from Asian manufacturers. Neither is a manufacturer. Undoubtedly they source some of their products from the same factories. Victoria's Secret is owned by an Australian, Brett Blundy, and a number of USA And foreign institutions. Shen is owned by a Singapore national (and former PRC national) along with USA institutional investors and the UAE sovereign wealth fund. Victoria's Secret is mostly bricks and mortar and sells a higher quality product. Shen sells mostly online. If it's kicking VS's ass, it's for the same reason Amazon is kicking everybody else's ass.

The company that I believe is the largest supplier of expandable fabric and lace for Victoria's Secret products is domiciled in Hong Kong and, say, fifteen years ago produced the majority of its output in China. It also had a factory in Vietnam, which catered to Japanese brands because of tariff advantages. The company was nimble, so when Trump first imposed tariffs on China it ramped up Vietnamese production. Now they produce more from Vietnam than they do from China.

Fabric manufacturing requires a lot of capex. The company had to build additional factories in Vietnam, and hire workers who initially weren't very productive. Its supply chain (yarn and dye suppliers, etc.) was spread out and inefficient. A huge investment in Vietnam was incurred because of the tariffs, and I guess Vietnamese workers benefitted. The USA consumer sure didn't. She had to pay higher prices.

So then later on Liberation Day, April 2, 2025, Trump jacks up tariffs on Vietnam to 46%. WTF? So now what's the manufacturer supposed to do? Start building factories in Mexico and Brazil? Then how long before Trump raises the tariff on that country?

The fabric manufacturer passes its production onto a garment manufacturer. Garment manufacturing, like shoe manufacturing, is labor intensive. Maybe around 20% of the cost of gross sales is labor. The work to make garments, and shoes and toys and cheap electronics, is painstaking and repetitive. Americans don't want to do it, any more than they want to work in meat processing plants, to use SubCmdr's example. If you visit an Asian factory it would probably change your mind.

Someone told you he could set up a factory in the USA and manufacture shoes for $6 or $9 a pair or something. Unless he was talking about one piece, mickey mouse molded shoes he was blowing smoke. They, like garments, require a lot of labor. Yeah, maybe someday with AI and humanoid robots like what Tesla and Xpeng are trying to make, you will be able to lower the labor cost a lot. Until then, when the unemployment rate is 4. 2%, and when contrary to Tooms and Spidy's opinion, almost all Americans who want a job have one, why would you want to move this production to the USA? You don't want to take people away from higher value added work. We've got the highest GDP per capita in the world for any large country, by far. You don't want to slash productivity by making people assemble Iphones instead of Boeing aircraft.[/QUOTE]That constantly changing tariff rate is one reason I gave Trump a F in execution. As for clothing, it was not just limited to that but anything that could be sent and claimed to be under $800 was not taxed one penny. That is a helluva lot stuff that you are giving over to foreign producers as American producers cannot compete with countries paying wages at 50 cents per hour. Clothing and shoes are among the least important items in that mix.

Think about all the items in your life that if they failed could kill you that cost under $800 like nuts and bolts on your car. Sure, the market can correct if it knows about an issue like mercury in Chinese dog food but what about things the market cannot see? Like spyware in all the Chinese electronics. That cannot be quantified and so the argument that free trade is beneifcial for both parties fall on its face.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;3073026]I did a search in the political forum of another hoe board, and I was sounding the alarm about rare earth minerals back in 2018. I absolutely favor and favored subsidies and sensible tariffs to ensure access to strategic rare earth minerals, and essential products in general. I'the go a step further and tell the "not in my backyard" crowd to fuck off. Otherwise you may never see significant mining and processing of rare earths in the USA.[/QUOTE]Yes, rare earths are not really rare or that hard to produce but building up systems to produce them takes time, and all of this was shipped off to China "because it's cheaper". And then China gets mad at us and no more rare earths. That was the same with PPE and could be with antibiotics and a whole host of other vital goods.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;3073026]I'm not inclined to argue about cars. I said a few things relevant to your comments in a reply to SubCmdr. I've already shot my wad there, as you and Spidy know a lot more about Chinese BEV's than I do. I will say that trying to move the supply chain out of Mexico and Canada and entirely into the USA is nuts. Hopefully Trump's backed off that idea, if he ever had it in the first place. I'm not sure he did.[/QUOTE]Well, cars are just like rare earths in that factories are incredibly difficult and time consuming to erect and once they are gone, it takes a long time to rebuild them.

What China is doing is the same Rockefeller did with standard oil. Use cheaper prices where you are losing money to put your competitor out of business. Once they are out of business, you charge whatever you want. What is even worse about China that people do not get is the CCCP does not even care about making a profit. If they did, they would not be building all the empty homes and skyscrapers that they are. They want to keep people employed and busy so they do not revolt.

Just like with the overproduction of homes, they are doing it elsewhere including with cars. What is amazing to me is how many people buy into the stupid Chinese model. If you are going into massive debt to build things that are not needed, eventually, the entire system will collapse. All that is keeping China going right now is hidiing how much debt they have from the world.

So take Ford versus Geely. If Ford sells something for $35,000, they have to make a profit, so labor costs and components have to be under $35,000. The reason I was so psyched about the Chinese car is China is putting in way over $35,000 worth of stuff in their cars that cost that amount. They are putting in top of the line seats with massagers in them, state of the art stereos, plush carpeting, expensive LED lighting ETC. You can do everything by voice control and if it were legal to command the car to give you a BJ, I bet it would do that too. There are cars in China right now that sell for $50,000 that have components in them that you only see in cars costing 4 X that amount.

Wbat made me go Tesla over Geely is right now is in Mexico the Chinese cars have not rolled out the full service driving (FSD) like Tesla has. The Chinese have it and are using it in China but they have not rolled it out in Mexico yet.

China has capacity to buiild every car in the world and because "it is cheaper" in China, you can make the argument that all cars SHOULD be made in China to benefit the consumer. The problem with that is once all the other car companies are put out of business, you are left with two scenarios. Either China raises car prices through the roof to survive and / or they fail and we have to bail out the Chinese car companies.

So yeah, I am familiar with the economic models that say trade benefits both sides. Economists have put in the exception that tariffs might be okay to be put in place with vital industries like rare earths. What I have not seen is an adjustment to any models to compensate for a competitor not giving a fuck if they make a profit which is China and the CCP right now and putting tariffs on goods produced at a loss like cars to protect a vital American industry IS rational. How Trump went about implementing tariffs was NOT.

Happy July 4th. Celebrations are massive nationwide for the patriotic Republicans. 70% of democrats / communists say they are not patriotic and will not celebrate the 4th. Republicans are enjoying the lakes and rivers, bbq's, beer, fireworks with all their friends while Democrats sulk at home watching liberal news MSN Now complain about Trump. Even liberal CCN is covering the celebration. What a great world we live in. Hundreds of thousands World Cup fans are having a great time enjoying the USA during this celebration. Democrats are hoping USA soccer team loses because they could never enjoy a win for USA while Trump is president. TDS is rampant with the democrats / communists. Fans from all over the world are raving about their stay in USA. Even the French like air conditioning in their hotel rooms. June 30, 2026 401 K's and retirement accounts hit record levels. Gas prices are dropping and will be under $3 in most red states. Of course California and several other blue states will artificially keep their prices high until after the mid terms. 35 allies of the USA are participating in the 250 celebrations but some blue states are not participating as they could never enjoy life and celebrate while Trump is president. Isn't it a great life!

[QUOTE=Canada;3073176]Happy July 4th. Celebrations are massive nationwide for the patriotic Republicans. 70% of democrats / communists say they are not patriotic and will not celebrate the 4th. Republicans are enjoying the lakes and rivers, bbq's, beer, fireworks with all their friends while Democrats sulk at home watching liberal news MSN Now complain about Trump. Even liberal CCN is covering the celebration. What a great world we live in. Hundreds of thousands World Cup fans are having a great time enjoying the USA during this celebration. Democrats are hoping USA soccer team loses because they could never enjoy a win for USA while Trump is president. TDS is rampant with the democrats / communists. Fans from all over the world are raving about their stay in USA. Even the French like air conditioning in their hotel rooms. June 30, 2026 401 K's and retirement accounts hit record levels. Gas prices are dropping and will be under $3 in most red states. Of course California and several other blue states will artificially keep their prices high until after the mid terms. 35 allies of the USA are participating in the 250 celebrations but some blue states are not participating as they could never enjoy life and celebrate while Trump is president. Isn't it a great life![/QUOTE]Yes, most Americans get poorer from inflation from Trump war in Iran, being defeated and needing to pay 300 billions to mollahs still there like before, much more than did Obama, but everything is good for Trump who makes much richer and so megaloman, even when he fail, but not understanding meaning of shame.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;3073238]Yes, most Americans get poorer from inflation from Trump war in Iran, being defeated and needing to pay 300 billions to mollahs still there like before, much more than did Obama, but everything is good for Trump who makes much richer and so megaloman, even when he fail, but not understanding meaning of shame.[/QUOTE]Americans were poorer with Biden and Obama but definitely not poorer with Trump. Trump tax cuts guaranteed more money in Americans pockets even with inflation. You sweating your life away in France can't understand that Americans are far better off under Trump presidency. Everyone I know in USA will tell you the same thing. Jealous of the USA life will get you nowhere. All the French that came for the World Cup love America. Sorry you are stuck in France.