Monterrey

[QUOTE=Jinxx; 1120022]I just got back from Monterrey. I spent time in Infinito day shift and night shift. I think the day shift girls were a little bit hotter. I checked out el matehuala and wasn't impressed. Went to marcella masaje place a couple times. They charge a flat fee of 600 pesos which apparently only covers CBJ and cfs, if you want to kiss the girl or want BBBJ that requires extra pesos.

I also spent time in a strip club on Lincoln in the cumbres area called Woman's. This place was ok, had a few hot chicks. I think it's more of a place where you drink and chat with the girls as opposed to infinito where the girls make their money having sex in the privados. I never got a chance to check out a place called Crazy Ranch which is on felix you gomez north of el centro. Does anybody know the place and how good it is?

As for the safety situation I'd say it's ok for a guy just hitting up a few strip clubs and masaje places for a couple days but in general Monterrey is a goddamn warzone. Everyday I saw platoons of soldiers armed to the teeth riding around with their faces covered up. I mean at any given moment the shit could hit the fan pretty much anywhere in the city. The only place that's considered safe is Valle / San Pedro. You hear reports on the news of people getting killed ALMOST ON A DAILY FUCKING BASIS. I'm not kidding one bit. It got so bad a couple of weeks ago when I was there the police were setting up check points at random places and stopping everysingle car and searching the car and the people looking for contraband. The whole city was tense and on edge. You can feel the fear and tension when you talk to people, it's a creepy feeling.

Late at night I'd reccomend paying close attention to what kind of taxi you're getting into. I'd reccomend riding in a car that looks newer and well kept and you'll feel safer with an older guy taxi driver. A couple of times late night when I'd been drinking I found myself riding in some questionable cars with some questionable looking younger drivers. I didn't feel 100% secure those times. But I'm a younger guy and I was hanging out with some pretty wild local people that party pretty hard so most people reading this probably won't be experiencing Monterrey the same as me. Please keep in mind that if you're looking to score "party supplies" in Monterrey you are taking your life into your own hands. Literally. Dealing with the wrong people can get you into some serious trouble and I'm not necessarily talking about with the police.

Another thing that was cool about this trip is I discovered the casinos. I'd heard there were casinos in Monterrey but I didn't really know what to expect. I went to a new one in apodaca and another one called casino revolucion and was very impressed. They look just like the ones here in the states. Very nice and a very nice surprise. I wasn't expecting being able to gamble in Monterrey. If you play the card tables, all the dealers are extremely hot young chicks. Very cool. [/QUOTE]

This is the most accurate assessment of the reality on the ground that I've seen in many months. I specifically agree with your recommendations about the taxis. But, I have to admit that while I do feel safer with the older guys in the taxis, sometimes they don't have a clue as to the location of the clubs I want to visit when I mention them by name. I have to lead some of the older guys by the hand, street by street. Sometimes, I also wonder if they are able to see at night based on their driving skills. So, the older guys present a different kind of danger. But, you also take your life in your own hands with the younger drivers who sometimes drive like maniacs.

I would only add to your recommendation that at night it's often difficult to discern the age of the driver until they have stopped for you. Just make sure, especially if you see you are getting a younger driver, that you sit in the back seat where you can remain in control of the circumstances, where you can control where they're taking you, etc...

I think your feeling about some younger drivers being potential criminals first, and taxi drivers second, is dead on, especially now, especially late at night. It would not surprise me if the criminal activities engaged in all over Monterrey, are not taxi drivers hiding behind the guise of being just an innocent, harmless taxi driver going about his business, just trying to make a peso or two. Being a taxi driver gives the criminal element some degree of obscurity along with their mobility, as they blend into the night, undetected. So, your advise is very wise.

As for the news reports in Monterrey about somebody being murdered daily. When I am back in my home town, I see the same things on a nightly basis...The distinction is the wholesale killing between the cartel members engaged in a violent business, and their finding mass graves to support what is most definitely not characteristic of the murder rate in most typical large cities in the US. Those statistics in the US do pale in comparison to the Mexico. But, as you pointed out, if you're not a drug dealer, buying drugs, etc...you are less susceptible to being victimized by waring between the cartels and it's members.

I also think that coming to Monterrey, or anywhere in Mexico, can be a shock to the sensibilities of most visiting Gringos that haven't spent a lot of time in South American Countries. I remember being initially a little shocked at the Militarization of Mexico as I first crossed over the border a number of years ago.

We are only used to seeing our police officers deployed in the streets in the USA, not the Army, and not generally even the National Guard, unless they are in transit somewhere, or you're located close to a base. However, it is relatively common practice for the army to be deployed and conducting civilian peace keeping missions in Mexico, especially these days. That's quite a shock when you come from a culture whose police agencies work pretty hard to soften their public image, and whose army is used only in operations outside the US, at times when they're in transit, or during natural disasters. When you see the contrast of an army deployed to maintain order in civilian society, with an aggressive presence, like what we see in Mexico compared to the US, it's a little ominous.

The army is deployed all over Monterrey, and they're fully armed with automatic weapons, in convoys, and deliberately confronting the Cartels, ferreting them out. The contrast with how the USA combats drug cartels and criminals, through the use of the Police, causes significantly less public fanfare, and it is not nearly as intimidating to the citizenry at large. Our law enforcement efforts in the US are very selectively Militarized. Our law enforcement image to the public is soft sold to the public in comparison.

The way the Mexicans are combating the problem is night and day to the way the US engages their drug gangs, and organized criminals. Americans are very, very reluctant to Militarize their civilian peace keeping efforts, just look at the controversy over deployment of the National Guard for US border enforcement. Norte Americanos just don't like the idea of using the Military domestically where it can be avoided. But, I think the Mexicans are more used to it, and of course, they are having to Militarize their efforts on account of the corruption and graft that runs so rampantly through their police agencies.

And, you bring up a very good point. The Mexican Army will indiscriminately cut down anyone and everyone in an effort to protect their own lives, to secure their positions, and over run the criminals with superior firepower as they engage the Cartels. So, the danger for us as mongers is being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and getting caught in the line of fire between the Cartels and the Army. Your comments are dead-on because there is really no statistically reliable way of knowing where the right place and the wrong places are in Monterrey.

That's why, just as you pointed out, you are just as likely to be caught in the wrong place at the wrong time whether standing in front of, or walking into, an El Oxxo, versus sitting drinking a beer in a club somewhere. The danger is static, and the odds, at least statistically, are still with us by a land slide.

The chances of being a victim are still statistically quite small, less than being killed in a traffic accident. But, there is always the off chance that you will be in the wrong place at the wrong time. However, I for one am not prepared to live my life with blue balls in the US on the statistically small off chance that I will end up being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I hope that my luck doesn't run out. But, conversely, I have never won the lottery either, so why should I believe that I am any more or less "lucky" in "love." :-)))

Jinxx. Seems you were all over the map.

Rancho Loco AKA Crazy Ranch is no more.

Marsella MP at this moment is more gas than substance. You are not the only one that has complained about the place.

I don't know if they changed their policies but like you say, extras cost on a flat rate basis.

Infinito on the working class level and Amnesia, Premiere and Colorados on the top notch expensive clubs, are the only ones that pay their girls on privado and dances.

So the girls are more intrested in you investing on booth dancing than chatting.

Women's, Harem, Pasarelas, Azul Tequila, Poisson and the rest. They work the other way around like you say. The girls earn their money drinking with the customers.

Yes Jinxx the federal and armed forces are all over the city.

One thing: locals feel safer with them taking charge of the city and the citizen's security than waiting for the local police to take charge, which they won't.

And believe me, you in the US are not used to this, but we are.

Daily basis for us, used to it by now.

Jinxx says "You hear reports on the news of people getting killed ALMOST ON A DAILY FUCKING BASIS."

Well, I read reports of the same coming from New York and the burroughs. And in a higher proportion than in Monterrey.

Come on Jinxx, Flint, Detroit are even more violent than Monterrey. Thing is that like us we are used to it by now, you tend not to look at what goes on in your own country.

One recomendation. You are wondering too far from the dowtown area of Monterrey into the hot spots of the city.

Lincoln avenue, Apodaca district. Stick to the dowtown area.

You can find everything there: Casinos, MPs, SCs.

[QUOTE=Jinxx; 1120022]I just got back from Monterrey. I spent time in Infinito day shift and night shift. I think the day shift girls were a little bit hotter. I checked out el matehuala and wasn't impressed. Went to marcella masaje place a couple times. They charge a flat fee of 600 pesos which apparently only covers CBJ and cfs, if you want to kiss the girl or want BBBJ that requires extra pesos.

I also spent time in a strip club on Lincoln in the cumbres area called Woman's. This place was ok, had a few hot chicks. I think it's more of a place where you drink and chat with the girls as opposed to infinito where the girls make their money having sex in the privados. I never got a chance to check out a place called Crazy Ranch which is on felix you gomez north of el centro. Does anybody know the place and how good it is?

As for the safety situation I'd say it's ok for a guy just hitting up a few strip clubs and masaje places for a couple days but in general Monterrey is a goddamn warzone. Everyday I saw platoons of soldiers armed to the teeth riding around with their faces covered up. I mean at any given moment the shit could hit the fan pretty much anywhere in the city. The only place that's considered safe is Valle / San Pedro. You hear reports on the news of people getting killed ALMOST ON A DAILY FUCKING BASIS. I'm not kidding one bit. It got so bad a couple of weeks ago when I was there the police were setting up check points at random places and stopping everysingle car and searching the car and the people looking for contraband. The whole city was tense and on edge. You can feel the fear and tension when you talk to people, it's a creepy feeling.

Late at night I'd reccomend paying close attention to what kind of taxi you're getting into. I'd reccomend riding in a car that looks newer and well kept and you'll feel safer with an older guy taxi driver. A couple of times late night when I'd been drinking I found myself riding in some questionable cars with some questionable looking younger drivers. I didn't feel 100% secure those times. But I'm a younger guy and I was hanging out with some pretty wild local people that party pretty hard so most people reading this probably won't be experiencing Monterrey the same as me. Please keep in mind that if you're looking to score "party supplies" in Monterrey you are taking your life into your own hands. Literally. Dealing with the wrong people can get you into some serious trouble and I'm not necessarily talking about with the police.

Another thing that was cool about this trip is I discovered the casinos. I'd heard there were casinos in Monterrey but I didn't really know what to expect. I went to a new one in apodaca and another one called casino revolucion and was very impressed. They look just like the ones here in the states. Very nice and a very nice surprise. I wasn't expecting being able to gamble in Monterrey. If you play the card tables, all the dealers are extremely hot young chicks. Very cool. [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Monterreydude;1120111]Well, I read reports of the same coming from New York and the burroughs. And in a higher proportion than in Monterrey. Come on Jinxx, Flint, Detroit are even more violent than Monterrey. Thing is that like us we are used to it by now, you tend not to look at what goes on in your own country.[/QUOTE]There is just as much "crime" in the large cities of the US. Just check out the crime stats for New York, St. Louis, Philidelphia, Chicago, Miami, New Orleans, etc.

But, the efforts to fight crime are in your face in Mexico due to the presence of the Military, whose intention is to exhibit an absolute dominance of the society they are now policing. The presence of the military as a civilian peace keeping force is foreign to Gringos, and it's weird for them to see it.

In the US, criminals are much more discrete. Criminals do not call attention to their acts by displaying them with such brutality because they know the police are much more aggressive, conscientious, and successful at using the evidence gathered from that level of brutality to bring criminals to justice. A "Cartel Level" of brutality leaves significantly more evidence, draws attention to the crime, etc. Something the US criminal is adverse to.

In Mexico, you only have the army keeping order, pursuing the cartels, and investigating very little with respect to crime. The police are virtually worthless at investigating crimes, and bringing perpetrators to justice in Mexico. Therefore, you are seeing an escalation and a brutality element in Mexico that mimics the cartels as the copy cats enter the fray, and as the regular criminals, or those they have always formerly restrained their criminal activity, begin to engage in criminal acts. They know the army doesn't investigate, and they know the police have been virtually subjugated by the army with respect to not only civil peace keeping, but that the ineffectiveness of police investigative follow up is almost non-existent.

More are turning to Crime in Mexico, carrying out retributions, and engaging in violent acts against their long-time enemies within their social circles, believing, correctly, that they will not be brought to justice. It's that simple. The escalation is no longer just an element of the cartels, but an atmosphere that breeds lawlessness from those that just a few years ago would have been much more discrete or not engaged in crimes at all.

[QUOTE=Monterreydude;1120111]Come on Jinxx, Flint, Detroit are even more violent than Monterrey. Thing is that like us we are used to it by now, you tend not to look at what goes on in your own country.[/QUOTE]In 2010 NY City had 532 murders, Detroit 308. I don't think one has to worry about a hail of machine gun fire, hand grenades, or RPGs in either.
Flint had 62.

Flint had 62?

Never going to quote Flint again as example.

Thanks for the data BB.

My point is that violent crime, in the sense of the nature of it, is increasing in the US
Criminal elements are no longer afraid to shoot at police, like the nutcase that killed 4 police officers inside a precinct. Or the other guy that shot 2 in a Walmart.
They don't care anymore if they will be killed, they want to take a few with them.
And I believe just this couple of days same thing happened again elsewhere.
Plus shootings are going more openly, and more likely to hurt all those around like the frat shooting in Ohio just yesterday.
That is part of my point.
And the media reports it as a regional aspect. Might go national, but it is not sensationalized like in Mexico.
So you have many, many instances that remain after a couple of days, like local incidents.
But the sum of all of them nationwide in America is something that is not considered by the citizens of the US.
The level of violence is increasing. Maybe not the number, the level of the violent crime has move up several notches.


[QUOTE=Bbond; 1120386]In 2010 NY City had 532 murders, Detroit 308. I don't think one has to worry about a hail of machine gun fire, hand grenades, or RPGs in either.

Flint had 62. [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Bbond; 1120386]In 2010 NY City had 532 murders, Detroit 308. I don't think one has to worry about a hail of machine gun fire, hand grenades, or RPGs in either.

Flint had 62. [/QUOTE]

Granted, US criminals are not using machine gun fire, hand grenades, and RPGs to terrorize their opponents. These are devices used by terrorists, and not typically by criminals. It isn't really a matter of crime, but a matter of escalating terrorism used in the commission of crime in Mexico.

In all fairness, the US has it's share of heinous, ruthless, and notorious terrorist acts that have been on the rise. The difference between Mexico and the US is that the US criminal element, as they create a totality of comparable crime statistics, comparable statistically to the totality of the crime statistics in Mexico, do not use terrorist acts in the commission of their "crimes."

Comparatively, there are only (3) major cities in Mexico, whereas there are many major cities in the US. So, the heinous acts are spread out over a vastly larger population in the US, and the notoriety of those acts is less geographically concentrated. The terrorist acts are for a different set of motivations than what we find in Mexico, but they are terrorist acts that are every bit as heinous as what is occurring in Mexico, but on a much different geographical scale in Mexico, thereby drawing more concentrated scrutiny by the media of both countries.

Also, it's quite clear that a heavily armed US population will not permit some of the terrorist methods being used in Monterrey to occur in the US in the commission of street crimes. Criminals using some of these same terrorist methods in the US would be met with overwhelming and deadly resistance from the armed, innocent population at large. This is not something the innocent population in Mexico is equipped or permitted to legally do. The innocent population in Mexico isn't legally permitted to acquire the means to protect themselves, nor are they culturally or sociologically conditioned, or sufficiently experienced with arms, in order to utilize them to fight back against a brazen criminal element that chooses to employ terrorist tactics.

The cartels in Mexico started using terrorism to achieve their own ends about three years ago. What concerns me beyond just the efforts by the Cartels to terrorize each other, and the collateral damage that might result from those efforts, collateral damage that has not been a legitimate threat to the average visitor or resident up to now, is that terrorism methods are starting to be used by the criminal element in the commission of crimes against the innocent population in Monterrey.

The "government" is increasingly incapable of curbing that kind of heinous violence in the commission of a crimes against innocent people, crimes that are not motivated by the interests of the cartels, but just crimes committed randomly by street thugs that have no greater goal in mind.

The distinction between the crimes occurring in the US versus the way the crimes are being committed in Monterrey is that regular criminals are increasingly starting to use terrorist methods. If this continues in Monterrey, the potential for being victimized rises exponentially as street criminals begin to emulate the most heinous acts of the cartels as part of their normal method of operation, something they have not been doing until just the last several months.

Employing the kinds of methods we are just now starting to see in Monterrey would simply not be possible in the US because the public at large in the USA represents the largest standing army in the World, probably 1000 times greater than any standing army in the world, and 100 times greater than any armed population of innocent civilians in the World.

Up to now, the acts in Mexico have been perpetrated between cartel members, criminals on criminals, drug dealing opportunists, the Cartels upon Politicians, etc. I am still not yet quite convinced that the trend with respect to criminal use of terrorist methods is sufficient to warn mongers to stay away from Monterrey. As I said, we are just now starting to see a shift in criminal activity, and the way in which they perpetrate their crimes against the general public. But...

If the criminal element begins to adopt these same terrorist methods against the civilian population, and this very recent trend continues, then all bets are off. The civilian population can not protect itself due to overly restrictive gun laws. The police are virtually ineffectual, corrupt, and sometimes criminal. The army only has regard for it's own safety, and the killing of the enemy (the cartels) , having no regard for the safety of the civilian population in the performance of it's duty.

If this should come to pass, the dangers we were formerly not so concerned about become legitimately worrisome. Why? Because Mexico does not respect the right of the population to protect itself. You have no hope that "government" can, will, or even wants to protect you. If they can't, won't, or don't want to protect you, you have no means by which you can protect yourself other than to leave the Country.

USB says: "Also, it's quite clear that a heavily armed US population will not permit some of the terrorist methods being used in Monterrey to occur in the US in the commission of street crimes. Criminals using some of these same terrorist methods in the US would be met with overwhelming and deadly resistance from the armed, innocent population at large."

Not true.

Again you only say "would be met with overwhelming and deadly resistance from the armed, innocent population at large."

We are not talking individual nutcases with a couple of guns gunning down crowds in Arizona.
We are talking organized crime.
Narcs carry overwhelming firepower in their level 5 armored vehicules: more than one assault weapon per occupant. Not only assault weapons, but guns. Add granades, RPGs and ammo sufficient to confront the army.

And that is just in the trunk of their cars.
And that kind of weaponry is used only to intimidate.

And they have no qualms to kill innocent bystanders.

And when they really mean business, they will do it in groups of 5 to 10 aromored vehicules making it like 25 killers per convoy.

AND you have also not considered retaliation.
(Why do you think the Army and Marines are involved on this???... cause these guys go for the family after the hail of bullets, to spread harm and fear even further and deeply)

No resistance from armed innocent population would be enough to stop them.

You have also not considered in your equation, that said armed innocent popultation, being them in their own right to pack a weapon, might be in the streets with their also innocent family.

Only an idiot would unholster an automatic pistol and try to confront a narc with an AK-47 with their family in close proximity. 1 or 2 feet away and bring a hail of bullets from them straight to their loved ones.

No, you are not considering many factors involved what is a confrontation between a killer that does not care who he kills and armed citizens that in the moment of truth, am quite sure they will hit the ground first and lastly, after everything is over, he will remember that he has a pop gun that is no match against a far superior fire power.

And only the Mexican armed forces have been succesful in stopping them cause they have the training and weapons to stop them.

But again and that is my point in my post further down below, that the level of violence will be going up many notches.
And if it does, it will be the daily bread of America... same kind we are having in Mexico.

Instead of hearing wishes that drug consumption be stopped in the US, that illegal traffiking of guns to Mexico will be stopped (and I repeat, ILLEGAL gun traffiking)... I only hear the escaltion of violence.

And that is not the solution.

[QUOTE=Unspongebob; 1120509]Granted, US criminals are not using machine gun fire, hand grenades, and RPGs to terrorize their opponents. These are devices used by terrorists, and not typically by criminals. It isn't really a matter of crime, but a matter of escalating terrorism used in the commission of crime in Mexico.

In all fairness, the US has it's share of heinous, ruthless, and notorious terrorist acts that have been on the rise. The difference between Mexico and the US is that the US criminal element, as they create a totality of comparable crime statistics, comparable statistically to the totality of the crime statistics in Mexico, do not use terrorist acts in the commission of their "crimes."

Comparatively, there are only (3) major cities in Mexico, whereas there are many major cities in the US. So, the heinous acts are spread out over a vastly larger population in the US, and the notoriety of those acts is less geographically concentrated. The terrorist acts are for a different set of motivations than what we find in Mexico, but they are terrorist acts that are every bit as heinous as what is occurring in Mexico, but on a much different geographical scale in Mexico, thereby drawing more concentrated scrutiny by the media of both countries.

Also, it's quite clear that a heavily armed US population will not permit some of the terrorist methods being used in Monterrey to occur in the US in the commission of street crimes. Criminals using some of these same terrorist methods in the US would be met with overwhelming and deadly resistance from the armed, innocent population at large. This is not something the innocent population in Mexico is equipped or permitted to legally do. The innocent population in Mexico isn't legally permitted to acquire the means to protect themselves, nor are they culturally or sociologically conditioned, or sufficiently experienced with arms, in order to utilize them to fight back against a brazen criminal element that chooses to employ terrorist tactics.

The cartels in Mexico started using terrorism to achieve their own ends about three years ago. What concerns me beyond just the efforts by the Cartels to terrorize each other, and the collateral damage that might result from those efforts, collateral damage that has not been a legitimate threat to the average visitor or resident up to now, is that terrorism methods are starting to be used by the criminal element in the commission of crimes against the innocent population in Monterrey.

The "government" is increasingly incapable of curbing that kind of heinous violence in the commission of a crimes against innocent people, crimes that are not motivated by the interests of the cartels, but just crimes committed randomly by street thugs that have no greater goal in mind.

The distinction between the crimes occurring in the US versus the way the crimes are being committed in Monterrey is that regular criminals are increasingly starting to use terrorist methods. If this continues in Monterrey, the potential for being victimized rises exponentially as street criminals begin to emulate the most heinous acts of the cartels as part of their normal method of operation, something they have not been doing until just the last several months.

Employing the kinds of methods we are just now starting to see in Monterrey would simply not be possible in the US because the public at large in the USA represents the largest standing army in the World, probably 1000 times greater than any standing army in the world, and 100 times greater than any armed population of innocent civilians in the World.

Up to now, the acts in Mexico have been perpetrated between cartel members, criminals on criminals, drug dealing opportunists, the Cartels upon Politicians, etc. I am still not yet quite convinced that the trend with respect to criminal use of terrorist methods is sufficient to warn mongers to stay away from Monterrey. As I said, we are just now starting to see a shift in criminal activity, and the way in which they perpetrate their crimes against the general public. But.

If the criminal element begins to adopt these same terrorist methods against the civilian population, and this very recent trend continues, then all bets are off. The civilian population can not protect itself due to overly restrictive gun laws. The police are virtually ineffectual, corrupt, and sometimes criminal. The army only has regard for it's own safety, and the killing of the enemy (the cartels) , having no regard for the safety of the civilian population in the performance of it's duty.

If this should come to pass, the dangers we were formerly not so concerned about become legitimately worrisome. Why? Because Mexico does not respect the right of the population to protect itself. You have no hope that "government" can, will, or even wants to protect you. If they can't, won't, or don't want to protect you, you have no means by which you can protect yourself other than to leave the Country. [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=La Parca; 1120338]There is just as much "crime" in the large cities of the US. Just check out the crime stats for New York, St. Louis, Philidelphia, Chicago, Miami, New Orleans, etc.

But, the efforts to fight crime are in your face in Mexico due to the presence of the Military, whose intention is to exhibit an absolute dominance of the society they are now policing. The presence of the military as a civilian peace keeping force is foreign to Gringos, and it's weird for them to see it.

In the US, criminals are much more discrete. Criminals do not call attention to their acts by displaying them with such brutality because they know the police are much more aggressive, conscientious, and successful at using the evidence gathered from that level of brutality to bring criminals to justice. A "Cartel Level" of brutality leaves significantly more evidence, draws attention to the crime, etc. Something the US criminal is adverse to.

In Mexico, you only have the army keeping order, pursuing the cartels, and investigating very little with respect to crime. The police are virtually worthless at investigating crimes, and bringing perpetrators to justice in Mexico. Therefore, you are seeing an escalation and a brutality element in Mexico that mimics the cartels as the copy cats enter the fray, and as the regular criminals, or those they have always formerly restrained their criminal activity, begin to engage in criminal acts. They know the army doesn't investigate, and they know the police have been virtually subjugated by the army with respect to not only civil peace keeping, but that the ineffectiveness of police investigative follow up is almost non-existent.

More are turning to Crime in Mexico, carrying out retributions, and engaging in violent acts against their long-time enemies within their social circles, believing, correctly, that they will not be brought to justice. It's that simple. The escalation is no longer just an element of the cartels, but an atmosphere that breeds lawlessness from those that just a few years ago would have been much more discrete or not engaged in crimes at all. [/QUOTE]This allow me to add:

One of the things that's made the situation so scary in Monterrey, Cuidad Juarez, and other areas is EXTORTION. Supposedly from what I hear from my buddies in Mty is if you own a restaurant, a store, a mechanic shop or basically any type of small business you can expect to be pressured to pay a "cuota" to some form of gang. And if you don't pay they have been known to burn down your place of business, kidnap you, attack you or your family, or just plain put a bullet in your head.

Another thing that's scary is Mexico has no real investigative process. In the US we're used to a crime being investigated, ie; witnesses being interviewed, leads being followed up on, the district attorney files formal charges, warrants being issued, arrest made, and a court process taking place with someone ending up doing time. FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND MEXICO HAS NONE OF THAT! NONE! So any criminal with a half a brain doesn't have to worry about getting caught by the police. They only have to worry about stepping on another gang's toes and getting their head chopped off. Hence the barbaric way the gangs go after each other.

So now that the zetas have exposed how flawed and rotten to the core the law enforcement and judicial system is, criminals have learned how easy it is to get away with almost anything. And since shit got so bad so fast the only response the government can come up with is sent the military to chase the bad guys around the city playing cat and mouse, shooting up the place. And innocent bystanders are just collateral damage. I mean we're a couple steps away from a police state of emergency, martial law situation.

[QUOTE=Monterreydude; 1120621]USB says: "Also, it's quite clear that a heavily armed US population will not permit some of the terrorist methods being used in Monterrey to occur in the US in the commission of street crimes. Criminals using some of these same terrorist methods in the US would be met with overwhelming and deadly resistance from the armed, innocent population at large."

Not true.

Again you only say "would be met with overwhelming and deadly resistance from the armed, innocent population at large."

We are not talking individual nutcases with a couple of guns gunning down crowds in Arizona.

We are talking organized crime.

Narcs carry overwhelming firepower in their level 5 armored vehicules: more than one assault weapon per occupant. Not only assault weapons, but guns. Add granades, RPGs and ammo sufficient to confront the army.

And that is just in the trunk of their cars.

And that kind of weaponry is used only to intimidate.

And they have no qualms to kill innocent bystanders.

And when they really mean business, they will do it in groups of 5 to 10 aromored vehicules making it like 25 killers per convoy.

AND you have also not considered retaliation.

(Why do you think the Army and Marines are involved on this. Cause these guys go for the family after the hail of bullets, to spread harm and fear even further and deeply)

No resistance from armed innocent population would be enough to stop them.

You have also not considered in your equation, that said armed innocent popultation, being them in their own right to pack a weapon, might be in the streets with their also innocent family.

Only an idiot would unholster an automatic pistol and try to confront a narc with an AK-47 with their family in close proximity. 1 or 2 feet away and bring a hail of bullets from them straight to their loved ones.

No, you are not considering many factors involved what is a confrontation between a killer that does not care who he kills and armed citizens that in the moment of truth, am quite sure they will hit the ground first and lastly, after everything is over, he will remember that he has a pop gun that is no match against a far superior fire power.

And only the Mexican armed forces have been succesful in stopping them cause they have the training and weapons to stop them.

But again and that is my point in my post further down below, that the level of violence will be going up many notches.

And if it does, it will be the daily bread of America. Same kind we are having in Mexico.

Instead of hearing wishes that drug consumption be stopped in the US, that illegal traffiking of guns to Mexico will be stopped (and I repeat, ILLEGAL gun traffiking). I only hear the escaltion of violence.

And that is not the solution. [/QUOTE]

The FBI estimates that there are over 200 million privately-owned firearms in the US. If you add those owned by the military, law enforcement agencies, and museums, there's probably about one firearm per person in the USA. The last total estimate was about 350,000,000. That would be one weapon for every man woman and child in the US.

I don't care what kind of weapons the Cartels have, whatever they have is simply not sufficient to repel the absolutely overwhelming hordes of determined rednecks that would come out of the woodwork against them. And, historically, the purpose of the founding fathers in the USA was to have that very same potential effect upon a potentially tyrannical government evolving over time. But, it also applies to any form of tyranny, governmental or organized crime.

Imagine, you are a small group of cartel members, and every other person you're trying to dominate is armed, some of them with similar firepower, and they are not only armed, but they are proficient in the use of those arms, and more importantly, they are willing to use them.

And, frankly, the latter part of that statement is what distinguishes the American from many other societies that have been ultimately dominated by their governments, criminals, etc...In my opinion, it is a cultural issue. Some societies are willing to fight for their freedom, and some are content living under oppression, whether that be oppression from the government, or oppression from criminals.

”The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

Nobody said it would be a safe scenario to fight back. But, you either fight oppression or you accept it. You are either dominated by it, and forced to live under oppressive conditions, or you fight back. You are either content bolting the front door, and never venturing out for fear of your life, or you choose to fight back. There is no other answer.

For my part, I prefer to at least have the means to fight back, regardless of the outcome, rather than just passively walking over the cliff because I am helpless to resist.

If the sociological and cultural conditioning of the people have them choosing to succumb to it, relying on promises from their government that they'll be protected, then they'll experience the same fate as all the rest of the people throughout history that have traded their liberty for hollow promises of security from their inept, corrupt, and opportunistic governments.

Some people, and whole societies, are content being lambs to the slaughter. History demonstrates in one instance after another that such passivity results in their own oppression through a blind but hopeful complicity with those who are wanting to dominate them. This naive and ultimately self destructive perspective about personal protection and personally liberty has it's intended effect on their intended victims.

[QUOTE=Monterreydude;1120621]Instead of hearing wishes that drug consumption be stopped in the US, that illegal traffiking of guns to Mexico will be stopped (and I repeat, ILLEGAL gun traffiking)... I only hear the escaltion of violence.[/QUOTE]Wishing the US would stop using drugs? Ain't going to happen, drugs are glamorized, even our elite use them, many consider drugs like cocaine relatively harmless. Can't get coke? Heck we have our in country made meth. Drugs, just like booze, are here to stay and that is a fact.

Stop illegal gun trafficing to Mexico? Stop buying them. As long as there is a market, someone, the US or someone else will fill it. AK-47s come from all over the world, probably easier to bring them in from down south anyway.

I read that most grenades come in from South or Central America.

Biggest problem I see in all this is the police are not on the side of the people, witness drugs openly sold with police watching over the transactions, police extorting people, etc, etc. Without an effective police force, crime runs rampant.

BB. I knew someone would post that the guns do not come from the US.

One question: why should the cartels buy guns from South America when they have the US no more than 5 minutes away from them?

The thing is you guys States side can not fathom the reality that you have gun runners selling guns not just to the rest of the world, but to Mexico too.

Let me point out that an article that came out in the New York Times and the LA Times (plus others) was quickly burried by the NRA rethoric not more than 2 weeks ago:

[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/26/us/26brfs-20CHARGEDING_BRF.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=arizona[/url]%20guns%20sinaloa&st=cse.

[url]http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-gun-smuggling-20110126,0,3179205.story[/url]

And someone told me they could trace the weopns back to the seller. Well, they have and it was right in the US.

[url]http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-us-border-agent-killed,0,3579590.story[/url]

It is well established fact that the guns came from the US.

Thing is the US population refuses to see the truth.

And more and more proof will come that these sales, plus ILLEGAL gun running (ILLEGAL, not legal sales. The US has gun runners selling has tons and tons of weapons in your soil) are moving south to Mexico.

[QUOTE=Bbond; 1120713]Wishing the US would stop using drugs? Ain't going to happen, drugs are glamorized, even our elite use them, many consider drugs like cocaine relatively harmless. Can't get coke? Heck we have our in country made meth. Drugs, just like booze, are here to stay and that is a fact.

Stop illegal gun trafficing to Mexico? Stop buying them. As long as there is a market, someone, the US or someone else will fill it. AK-47s come from all over the world, probably easier to bring them in from down south anyway.

I read that most grenades come in from South or Central America.

Biggest problem I see in all this is the police are not on the side of the people, witness drugs openly sold with police watching over the transactions, police extorting people, etc, etc. Without an effective police force, crime runs rampant. [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Monterreydude; 1120779]BB. I knew someone would post that the guns do not come from the US.

One question: why should the cartels buy guns from South America when they have the US no more than 5 minutes away from them? [/QUOTE]Exact same reason US buys drugs from Mexico.

US buys drugs, Mexicans sell.

Mexicans buy guns, US sells.

Take away one or the other, ain't going to stop either.

Guns are legal in the US, drugs are not legal in US or Mexico.

I agree.

The thing is that slowly but surely gun runners are being exposed.

Hopefuly that will slow down the trade, the ammount and the calibre of the weapons sold to Mexico.

[QUOTE=Bbond; 1120817]Exact same reason US buys drugs from Mexico.

US buys drugs, Mexicans sell.

Mexicans buy guns, US sells.

Take away one or the other, ain't going to stop either.

Guns are legal in the US, drugs are not legal in US or Mexico. [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Monterreydude; 1120883]I agree.

The thing is that slowly but surely gun runners are being exposed.

Hopefuly that will slow down the trade, the ammount and the calibre of the weapons sold to Mexico. [/QUOTE]

There is plenty of finger pointing to go around...

An individual who swears on the ATF Federal Form, claiming that they are purchasing the firearm for their own use, with the intention of smuggling it into Mexico, is guilty of a Federal Crime.

But, it's also a Federal Crime to illegally enter the United States. So, due in part to 12,000,000 to 18,000,000 law breakers, the United States is almost bankrupt.

Lets see, in order to even the score, that means we owe our Mexican neighbors at least 12,000,000 to 18,000,000 firearms. We have not even scratched the surface in fulfilling our quota... :-)))))

[QUOTE=Unspongebob; 1120936]There is plenty of finger pointing to go around.

An individual who swears on the ATF Federal Form, claiming that they are purchasing the firearm for their own use, with the intention of smuggling it into Mexico, is guilty of a Federal Crime.

But, it's also a Federal Crime to illegally enter the United States. So, due in part to 12, 000, 000 to 18, 000, 000 law breakers, the United States is almost bankrupt.

Lets see, in order to even the score, that means we owe our Mexican neighbors at least 12, 000, 000 to 18, 000, 000 firearms. We have not even scratched the surface in fulfilling our quota.) [/QUOTE]Yea. 12, 000, 000 to 18, 000, 000 law breakers who work harder and cheaper than legal americans. 12, 000, 000 to 18, 000, 000 consumers who buy food, housing, clothes, cars, entertainment, and luxury goods. The 12, 000, 000 to 18, 000, 000 law breakers who pay billions of dollars of taxes every year. (Yes illegal aliens pay taxes, often times more than legal americans.) The US could stop illegal immigration any time it wants to, but it will never happen because this country benefits too much from it. Same thing with drugs. We could stop the drug flow at any time or solve the problems drugs cause by legalizing them, but it will never happen because too many people benefit from the way things are now.

Not a cool or funny analogy at all."Yea let's pay Mexico back for sending us cheap labor and consumers by supplying them with the tools they can use to terrorize and mass-murder eachother." Ha ha!

Not cool at all.