Monterrey

[QUOTE=Monterreydude; 1120883]The thing is that slowly but surely gun runners are being exposed.

Hopefuly that will slow down the trade, the ammount and the calibre of the weapons sold to Mexico. [/QUOTE]Below is from [url]http://www.chandlerswatch.com/2010/04/04/heavily-armed-drug-cartel-criminals-attack-mexican-army/[/url]

Most of the guns that Mexico has seized from the cartels and asked the BATFE to trace (because markings on those particular firearms indicated that they came from the USA) represent only a small percentage of guns that Mexico has seized.

Research it, no-one can statistically support that the US is the major arms supplier to the drug cartels.

Sure it is claimed the majority are from the US, but that claim cannot be supported.

Then this...[url]http://groups.google.com*******frontera-list/browse_thread/thread/815aaaa6c6e37644[/url]

As of August 2010 the Mexican military had seized 180,000+ arms from the cartels, the cartels still have a good number more, to say the majority of all that came from the US is unsupportable.

Also..[url]http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/02/myth-percent-small-fraction-guns-mexico-come/[/url]

"In other words, 68 percent of the guns that were recovered were never submitted for tracing. And when you weed out the roughly 6,000 guns that could not be traced from the remaining 32 percent, it means 83 percent of the guns found at crime scenes in Mexico could not be traced to the U.S."

what is the point of this. just to spread fear. were there any specific target (s). maybe to gauge the reaction of the police. maybe to set them up for an ambush. whatever the reason. this and the grenades are the worst of all.

it is so crazy here. on the surface all is well, if you have ever been to money terra rey. you know how modern it is and rich it is and how many people are put and about all over the place. it seems really 'civilized'. there are cops all over, and you don't see any obvious signs of any trouble. but then out of the blue. here comes a convoy of militares. in full combat gear, faces covered, guns at the ready. you wonder why. everything seems ok. what is up. sometimes i write things that to some people might portray monterrey as a war zone. as in what we all visualize as a war zone. bombs bursting in air. pitched battles etc. but that is not the way it really is.

to the untrained eye. not one thing is out of place. but after a while you start to see it. people run traffic lights. speed. throw trash write graffiti everywhere. borrachos on the street sleeping. side walks all broken up. no lines on the roads to mark where you park or drive. people begging in the streets or at the intersections. the halcones hanging out. the strange guys with the mean look in their eyes. prostitutes. the brothels. painted pink with a neon sign that just says 'open'. the dirty gritty streets, buildings half completed. half falling down. horns honking. busses all marked up painted a mix of diverse color schemes. some brand new, others antigue looking, flying in all directions. exhaust fumes. people who are either scurrying or seem to be in some sort of a trance walking right out in the street. unaware of their own safety.

and in the wealthier areas the trendy bars and restaurants, the new cars. shiny people. expensive shops. at least as fancy and high tech as anything you will see in an american city. you can feel the money. and from the people the arrogant attitude.

there seems to be no concept of social conciousness from the upper classes towards the lower classes. no connectedness. not even enough to to maintain utilities, roads or other systems used by everyone.

this is to me a social war, and is the most apparent war. then when you watch the news and see the bodys. or actually see the blood on the streets from a recent killing, it combines. i used to tell people the most dangerous thing about monterrey is the possibility of getting ran over by a bus, that is still there. but now that is compounded by the possibility of being blown up by a car bomb.

is monterrey a war zone. not in the traditional sense, at least not yet. but it is a war zone, . the kind that slowly creeps up on your mind.

it seems like there are two kinds of people here.

the poor who are uneducated, and have been brutalized to the point that they don't know how to behave properly.

and the wealthy who are educated. but are so arrogant that they don't feel that they should have to behave in a civilized manner.

many of the wealthy here are just the descendants of criminals of some generations ago who were successful enough to kill their way to the top and become 'legitimate'. they are proverbial educated, well dressed wolves. only now with perfect fangs and manicured claws.

the criminals and lower classes of today know this and also know that it is within their grasp to attain the same status. to me that is why the corruption and lawlessness in mexico is so hard to stop.

just a little yokel rant that occurred to me while i was fighting my way through traffic yesterday.

bb... i trust you.
but i don't believe your sources.

specially fox news.

you do not get my point:

1. gun runners are illegaly selling weapons to mexico via the us. that does not mean they are sold in the us.

2. 750 weapons bought legally have been confirep001ed within the us in a single sizure and you still say that the us is not selling guns to mexican cartels... i mean 750 weapons is a heafty number. plus it is only one seziure of weapons. heaven knows how many more have crossed in to mexico thru the years.

3. again i ask: why should cartels buy guns via south america if they have the us one stone throw away? it is time and money.
and let me point a nice hole in your theory: you really think guns bought in south america can get clear into the northern part of mexico, via land?
answering yes put you on the side of the ignorant, and you are not that bbond.
no weapons would get to the north of mexico cause the southern cartels would not allow their enemies get armed. specially la famila that is mortal enemy of both los zetas and the cartel de sinaloa.
and as i recall, the weapons confirep001ed in arizona were for the cartel de sinaloa.
ok, they get to northern mexico via sea... come on, it's easier to get gun runners in the us to sell them guns.
time and money again.


[quote=bbond; 1121402]below is from.

[url]http://www.chandlerswatch.com/2010/04/04/heavily-armed-drug-cartel-criminals-attack-mexican-army/[/url]

most of the guns that mexico has seized from the cartels and asked the batfe to trace (because markings on those particular firearms indicated that they came from the usa) represent only a small percentage of guns that mexico has seized.

research it, no-one can statistically support that the us is the major arms supplier to the drug cartels.

sure it is claimed the majority are from the us, but that claim cannot be supported.

then this.

[url]http://groups.google.com*******frontera-list/browse_thread/thread/815aaaa6c6e37644[/url]

as of august 2010 the mexican military had seized 180, 000+ arms from the cartels, the cartels still have a good number more, to say the majority of all that came from the us is unsupportable.

also.

[url]http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/02/myth-percent-small-fraction-guns-mexico-come/[/url]

"in other words. 68 percent of the guns that were recovered were never submitted for tracing. and when you weed out the roughly 6, 000 guns that could not be traced from the remaining 32 percent, it means 83 percent of the guns found at crime scenes in mexico could not be traced to the usa"[/quote]

[QUOTE=Jinxx; 1121294]Yea. 12, 000, 000 to 18, 000, 000 law breakers who work harder and cheaper than legal americans. 12, 000, 000 to 18, 000, 000 consumers who buy food, housing, clothes, cars, entertainment, and luxury goods. The 12, 000, 000 to 18, 000, 000 law breakers who pay billions of dollars of taxes every year. (Yes illegal aliens pay taxes, often times more than legal americans.) The US could stop illegal immigration any time it wants to, but it will never happen because this country benefits too much from it. Same thing with drugs. We could stop the drug flow at any time or solve the problems drugs cause by legalizing them, but it will never happen because too many people benefit from the way things are now.

Not a cool or funny analogy at all."Yea let's pay Mexico back for sending us cheap labor and consumers by supplying them with the tools they can use to terrorize and mass-murder eachother." Ha ha!

Not cool at all. [/QUOTE]My point was, it is illegal to sneak across the border of the United States, and it's just as illegal smuggling guns into Mexico. It's illegal purchasing guns if you're a resident of Mexico, and it's illegal purchasing illegal drugs if you're a resident of the US and Mexico. It's illegal sneaking into Mexico, and it's illegal sneaking into the US.

Lets dispense with the rhetoric and analyze the facts. Illegal aliens pay around $13 billion in taxes, and they cost the individual State governments $113 billion dollars in services. Those are the numbers that have been documented by IRS, and those numbers are according to reports from the individual border States, ALL OF WHICH claim to being virtually bankrupted, in part, by the negative effects of Illegal Immigration. Common sense dictates that the underground economy alone, where illegals are paid in cash, and their is no documentation of wages earned, represents an enormous black hole that many refuse to consider.

The rhetoric flies fast and furious as some advocate for both sides of the issue. There is an enormous amount of disingenuous rhetoric, but the 13 billion versus 113 billion is what can be officially documented. The debate about the illegals being good people, their work ethic, whether they pay taxes, their underground contribution to the US economy, and / or their motivations, and all the rest of the stupid rhetoric that both sides throw around, is totally and completely irrelevant.

They are mostly good people, they are some of the very best workers, they are for the most part reliable, and most are understandably only seeking a better life. But, that doesn't excuse the FACT that they are violating US Federal Law. That doesn't negate the security risk to the US with respect to terrorism and criminal enterprise associated with hordes of undocumented individuals flooding across the border.

With regard to BBonds statistics concerning guns that have been identified by serial number as coming from the United States, he is absolutely, positively correct. I do not get those numbers from Fox News. Those are numbers published directly by ATF following a joint investigation conducted with the cooperation of the Mexican Government. Most of the guns in Mexico are acquired by Mexicanos illegally. That, of course, is just another monumental detrimental result occurring as a result of their being a huge number of undocumented illegal aliens using false IDs, false SSNs, etc. The porous border problem can also be blamed directly for the supposed illegal firearm problem occurring in Mexico through straw purchase sales from Gun Dealers in the border States.

There simply is no logical excuse for people advocating for open borders when trying to control crime, terrorism, guns, etc...The advocates of open borders, or those justifying illegal immigration on humanitarian grounds, fail to consider all the fall-out that results from undocumented aliens. The effects of illegal immigration upon the security of sovereign nations is monumental.

With respect to blaming the US for the category of weapons being smuggled into Mexico, it is illegal to possess automatic weapons in the US without a license. Those licenses are $3000 per firearm. Those having legal possession of automatic weapons are audited by ATF to confirm their receipt and possession of those weapons on an annual basis. Dealers and individuals licensed to possess automatic weapons damn well better have those weapons in their possession, or have a verifiable disposition for those weapons, or they will be in prison, and much more quickly than were they to have committed murder. Individual owners of automatic weapons are individually investigated by ATF before they're issued a license to possess an automatic weapon. There is NO fraud associated with procuring such licenses because ATF agents personally thoroughly investigate each and every applicant for such a license, so much so that obtaining a license leaves no question as to the legality of the legal purchase. Class 1 dealers in the US, which consists of the majority of gun dealers along the border, and throughout the USA, are not permitted to purchase or sell automatic weapons. Only Class 3 dealers are permitted to do so, and they are very closely scrutinized. Therefore, if automatic weapons are making it into Mexico, they are not being procured legally. They are being hijacked from shipment, or stolen from government stock piles, etc...but, they are not being obtained through legal channels. In other words, automatic weapons are making it to Mexico through criminal enterprises, both in the US and Mexico.

It is also disingenuous to blame the point of origin for illegal firearms slipping into Mexico. When anyone makes that same claim about drugs, some are only too quick to blame the "users" of drugs, and somehow the point of origin seems to escape the debate. Don't misunderstand, with illegal drugs, both of them being illegal in both countries, the blame should be squarely placed upon the drug dealers and the users. And, of course, the governments should be blamed for letting it happen.

Legal ownership of Firearms is legal in the US. The fact that weapons are manufactured in the US is a bogus excuse for blaming the US for the mayhem occurring in Mexico. The "people" of Mexico are illegally procuring those firearms, and they are guilty of a crime in Mexico through mere possession. I suppose the offending Mexicanos are blameless in the whole scenario.

If you apply this same logic to drugs, some are eager to blame the drug problem on the US because the people in the US purchase drugs. But, following that same "point of origin" argument used to blame the proliferation of guns in Mexico, whom is to blame with respect to the supply of drugs flooding into the US?

Automobiles are manufactured in the US too. According to that same twisted "point of origin" argument, the US is to blame for deaths occurring as a result of automobile accidents where the vehicles involved in deadly accidents were US made vehicles. According to "point of origin" logic, and no "individual responsibility," I suppose the drivers in deadly accidents should be considered blameless.

My comment regarding the 12-18 million illegal aliens, and the correlation between illegal guns being smuggled into Mexico, illustrates my frustration with the finger pointing rhetoric that abounds, the excuses for illegal behavior on both counts, and the lack of resolve to hold individuals and governments accountable for ignoring their responsibilities.

With respect to illegal immigration, if I have to be scrutinized when traveling into Mexico, and upon re-entry into my own country, then I want the same kind of scrutiny on visitors, immigrants, illegal or not, to make sure that all people are equally documented and scrutinized before they are permitted to live, work, and/or visit the USA.

[quote=monterreydude; 1121679]bb. i trust you.

but i don't believe your sources.

specially fox news.

you do not get my point:

1. gun runners are illegaly selling weapons to mexico via the us. that does not mean they are sold in the us.

2. 750 weapons bought legally have been confirep001ed within the us in a single sizure and you still say that the us is not selling guns to mexican cartels. i mean 750 weapons is a heafty number. plus it is only one seziure of weapons. heaven knows how many more have crossed in to mexico thru the years.

3. again i ask: why should cartels buy guns via south america if they have the us one stone throw away? it is time and money.

and let me point a nice hole in your theory: you really think guns bought in south america can get clear into the northern part of mexico, via land?

answering yes put you on the side of the ignorant, and you are not that bbond.

no weapons would get to the north of mexico cause the southern cartels would not allow their enemies get armed. specially la famila that is mortal enemy of both los zetas and the cartel de sinaloa.

and as i recall, the weapons confirep001ed in arizona were for the cartel de sinaloa.

ok, they get to northern mexico via sea. come on, it's easier to get gun runners in the us to sell them guns.

time and money again. [/quote]

lets clarify the rhetoric. i have long been outraged by the perception that mexicanos are not typically permitted to possess firearms. so, i've done some research to clarify that issue, and i can also statistically challenge this rhetoric about the us being the source of the majority of firearms and explosives used at the hands of the cartels.

the constitution of 1917, article 10, as amended, states: the inhabitants of the united mexican states have a right to arms in their homes, for security and legitimate defense, with the exception of arms prohibited by federal law and those reserved for the exclusive use of the army, navy, air force and national guard. federal law will determine the cases, conditions, requirements, and places in which the carrying of arms will be authorized to the inhabitants. mexicanos are legally permitted to purchase certain firearms from a mexican agency called ucam. the selection of models is restricted, but those selections include many of those same models that are being confirep001ed from the cartels.

guns positively traced directly to the united states, according to reports published by atf, equals less than 12 percent of the total arms seized in mexico. this means that almost 90 percent of the guns seized in mexico were not traced back directly to the united states.

that 12% is just another result of their being a huge number of undocumented illegal aliens using false ids, false ssns, straw purchases, etc. the porous border problem can also be blamed directly for the supposed bogus charge that the us is the origin of illegal firearms and explosives being used by the cartels in mexico.

a very large portion of guns used by criminals are actually purchased in mexico, or stolen from their legitimate owners, who have purchased them through ucam, the mexican agency that sells mexican nationals their legal firearms. while ucam does have very strict regulations for civilians to purchase guns in mexico, criminals will use straw purchasers to obtain firearms from ucam, and/or obtain them from corrupt officials.

ucam is a mexican run agency. how many of us have faith in the integrity that there is little or no graft or corruption occurring in this agency? mexican agencies do not have the most stellar track record with respect to ethics, legality, justice, competence, etc...

it is not uncommon to see 38 super pistols seized from cartel figures, which is a caliber that is not popular in the united states. many of these pistols are of mexican origin. likewise, cartel hit men commonly use 380 pistols equipped with sound suppressors in their assassinations. in many cases, these pistols are purchased in mexico, the suppressors are locally manufactured, and the guns are adapted to receive the suppressors by mexican underworld gunsmiths.

with regard to tovex, grenades, ieds, etc...latin america is awash in weapons that were shipped-in over the past several decades from international sources of manufacture in order to supply the various insurgencies and counter insurgencies in that region of the world. when these military-grade weapons are combined with the rampant corruption in the region, they quickly find their way into the black market.

the mexican cartels have supply-chain contacts that help move narcotics to mexico from south america and they are able to use this same network to obtain guns from the black market in south and central america and then smuggle them into mexico. that is infinitely easier than to supposedly procure these from the us, where they are heavily regulated.

law rockets and m60 machine guns come into mexico from third world countries and not directly from the united states. most of the military ordnance used by the mexican cartels comes from the international illegal arms market, and increasingly from china, via the same networks that furnish precursor chemicals for narcotics manufacturing. these kinds of weapons also come from corrupt elements in the mexican military, and/or from deserters who take their weapons with them.

items such as south korean fragmentation grenades and rpg-7s, often used by the cartels, simply are not in the usa arsenal. this means that very few of the weapons in this category come from the united states, yet they are being used in significant numbers by the cartels.

it is not accurate to assign blame to the usa for the heinous acts of the cartels using firearms and/or explosives just because some of these firearms, which are legally made in the us (12% to be exact), some even legally available for sale in mexico, are procured illegally in mexico on the black market from other world-wide illegitimate sources.

[QUOTE=Unspongebob; 1121810]My point was, it is illegal to sneak across the border of the United States, and it's just as illegal smuggling guns into Mexico. It's illegal purchasing guns if you're a resident of Mexico, and it's illegal purchasing illegal drugs if you're a resident of the US and Mexico. It's illegal sneaking into Mexico, and it's illegal sneaking into the US.

Lets dispense with the rhetoric and analyze the facts. Illegal aliens pay around $13 billion in taxes, and they cost the individual State governments $113 billion dollars in services. Those are the numbers that have been documented by IRS, and those numbers are according to reports from the individual border States, ALL OF WHICH claim to being virtually bankrupted, in part, by the negative effects of Illegal Immigration. Common sense dictates that the underground economy alone, where illegals are paid in cash, and their is no documentation of wages earned, represents an enormous black hole that many refuse to consider.

The rhetoric flies fast and furious as some advocate for both sides of the issue. There is an enormous amount of disingenuous rhetoric, but the 13 billion versus 113 billion is what can be officially documented. The debate about the illegals being good people, their work ethic, whether they pay taxes, their underground contribution to the US economy, and / or their motivations, and all the rest of the stupid rhetoric that both sides throw around, is totally and completely irrelevant.

They are mostly good people, they are some of the very best workers, they are for the most part reliable, and most are understandably only seeking a better life. But, that doesn't excuse the FACT that they are violating US Federal Law. That doesn't negate the security risk to the US with respect to terrorism and criminal enterprise associated with hordes of undocumented individuals flooding across the border.

With regard to BBonds statistics concerning guns that have been identified by serial number as coming from the United States, he is absolutely, positively correct. I do not get those numbers from Fox News. Those are numbers published directly by ATF following a joint investigation conducted with the cooperation of the Mexican Government. Most of the guns in Mexico are acquired by Mexicanos illegally. That, of course, is just another monumental detrimental result occurring as a result of their being a huge number of undocumented illegal aliens using false IDs, false SSNs, etc. The porous border problem can also be blamed directly for the supposed illegal firearm problem occurring in Mexico through straw purchase sales from Gun Dealers in the border States.

There simply is no logical excuse for people advocating for open borders when trying to control crime, terrorism, guns, etc. The advocates of open borders, or those justifying illegal immigration on humanitarian grounds, fail to consider all the fall-out that results from undocumented aliens. The effects of illegal immigration upon the security of sovereign nations is monumental.

With respect to blaming the US for the category of weapons being smuggled into Mexico, it is illegal to possess automatic weapons in the US without a license. Those licenses are $3000 per firearm. Those having legal possession of automatic weapons are audited by ATF to confirm their receipt and possession of those weapons on an annual basis. Dealers and individuals licensed to possess automatic weapons damn well better have those weapons in their possession, or have a verifiable disposition for those weapons, or they will be in prison, and much more quickly than were they to have committed murder. Individual owners of automatic weapons are individually investigated by ATF before they're issued a license to possess an automatic weapon. There is NO fraud associated with procuring such licenses because ATF agents personally thoroughly investigate each and every applicant for such a license, so much so that obtaining a license leaves no question as to the legality of the legal purchase. Class 1 dealers in the US, which consists of the majority of gun dealers along the border, and throughout the USA, are not permitted to purchase or sell automatic weapons. Only Class 3 dealers are permitted to do so, and they are very closely scrutinized. Therefore, if automatic weapons are making it into Mexico, they are not being procured legally. They are being hijacked from shipment, or stolen from government stock piles, etc. But, they are not being obtained through legal channels. In other words, automatic weapons are making it to Mexico through criminal enterprises, both in the US and Mexico.

It is also disingenuous to blame the point of origin for illegal firearms slipping into Mexico. When anyone makes that same claim about drugs, some are only too quick to blame the "users" of drugs, and somehow the point of origin seems to escape the debate. Don't misunderstand, with illegal drugs, both of them being illegal in both countries, the blame should be squarely placed upon the drug dealers and the users. And, of course, the governments should be blamed for letting it happen.

Legal ownership of Firearms is legal in the US. The fact that weapons are manufactured in the US is a bogus excuse for blaming the US for the mayhem occurring in Mexico. The "people" of Mexico are illegally procuring those firearms, and they are guilty of a crime in Mexico through mere possession. I suppose the offending Mexicanos are blameless in the whole scenario.

If you apply this same logic to drugs, some are eager to blame the drug problem on the US because the people in the US purchase drugs. But, following that same "point of origin" argument used to blame the proliferation of guns in Mexico, whom is to blame with respect to the supply of drugs flooding into the US?

Automobiles are manufactured in the US too. According to that same twisted "point of origin" argument, the US is to blame for deaths occurring as a result of automobile accidents where the vehicles involved in deadly accidents were US made vehicles. According to "point of origin" logic, and no "individual responsibility," I suppose the drivers in deadly accidents should be considered blameless.

My comment regarding the 12-18 million illegal aliens, and the correlation between illegal guns being smuggled into Mexico, illustrates my frustration with the finger pointing rhetoric that abounds, the excuses for illegal behavior on both counts, and the lack of resolve to hold individuals and governments accountable for ignoring their responsibilities.

With respect to illegal immigration, if I have to be scrutinized when traveling into Mexico, and upon re-entry into my own country, then I want the same kind of scrutiny on visitors, immigrants, illegal or not, to make sure that all people are equally documented and scrutinized before they are permitted to live, work, and / or visit the USA.[/QUOTE]I don't want to say whether or not illegal immigration into the USA is a negative or a positive. I was only trying to say that it's unfair to say that since masses of people are sneaking in to the country from Mexico it is justifiable for us to wholesale large quantities of high powered weapons to some of the nastiest, most brutal people on the planet whose sole agenda is to wreak havoc and terrorize the people of Mexico.

You are absolutely right in that many parties are to blame for illegal immigration. The debate whether illegal immigration is overall good or bad is never-ending and I don't think this is the forum in which to discuss it.

I don't think anybody is going to argue that selling arms to crime organizations is in any way, shape, or for a positive thing.

Damn, am I to blame for starting this whole discussion about the security situation, cartels, and crime, etc, etc?

From now on I'll try to stick to the subject at hand (pussy). Sorry about the thread derail guys.

my friend, you will not get it till you see it in your front yard.

and you just don't get the point.

they us goverment slowly is accpeting that weapons in mexico come from the us, but the nra is burrying anything due to the power they have.

when i mentioned gun runners, i did not say these gun runners were buyin their guns at walmart and selling them to mexico.

they are getting them from the west coast and moving them to mexico.

of course they come from asia. but they end in mexico.

that is what i mean by gun runners.

you do not get the part of the southern cartels cause you do not know any of them asides from zetas and cdg.

there are over 20 cartels in mexico.

the southern ones el centro, la familia, are in constant war with the cartel de sinaloa, cartel de tijuana, la linea, cartel de juarez, cdg, zetas.

"guns positively traced directly to the united states, according to reports published by atf, equals less than 12 percent of the total arms seized in mexico. this means that almost 90 percent of the guns seized in mexico were not traced back directly to the united states."

this part you got from the nra and fox news. pure unadulterated bs.

this is from an article published 2 years ago and this year am sure they will reprint it.

[url]http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/02/myth-percent-small-fraction-guns-mexico-come/[/url]

april 2 2009.... two years ago.

but if you believe in blogs, which i don't, same way i never trust fox news (no one in the rest of the world reprints a fox news article) you might like to read the analysis of this guy:

[url]http://www.factcheck.org/2009/04/counting-mexicos-guns/[/url]

quoting and i copy/paste sen. dick durbin (d-ill.) and sen. dianne feinstein (d-calif.) that the figure is 90% from the us.
completely the other way around.
but i like what he says, he says that both fox and the atf are wrong and that the figure is ellusive.

in past years the cartels used to erase the serial numbers. that's why they coudln't be trace to the us.

now they don't care. that's why the number of guns trace to the us is increasing.

that is why the atf is hitting armories in texas, new mexico and arizona now.

cause they are tracing the guns back to them.


anyway, let us trust fox news:

[url]http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/02/02/senator-calls-atf-allegations-agency-allowing-guns-mexico/[/url]

the atf is allowing guns to be smuggled into mexico.
that is pure and unadultered corruption of a goverment agency.
but then, this is fox news true to it's form: "none of the claims about the atf allowing guns to cross the border have been conclusively proved. but sen. grassley has called for the atf to be more transparent to allow the truth to come out."

after throwing the stone, they hide their hand. pure bible parable.
distortion of the truth and lies close to truth... true dr. goebbles at work here.

"a very large portion of guns used by criminals are actually purchased in mexico, or stolen from their legitimate owners, who have purchased them through ucam, the mexican agency that sells mexican nationals their legal firearms. while ucam does have very strict regulations for civilians to purchase guns in mexico, criminals will use straw purchasers to obtain firearms from ucam, and / or obtain them from corrupt officials"

caliber of guns sold in mexico legally do not go over handguns and then, no more than. 38 soft calibers.

no super guns are sold to the general public.

and iam blaming the us for being the number one drug consumer of the world that has mexico as it is right now.

get it???



[quote=unspongebob; 1121853]lets clarify the rhetoric. i have long been outraged by the perception that mexicanos are not typically permitted to possess firearms. so, i've done some research to clarify that issue, and i can also statistically challenge this rhetoric about the us being the source of the majority of firearms and explosives used at the hands of the cartels.

the constitution of 1917, article 10, as amended, states: the inhabitants of the united mexican states have a right to arms in their homes, for security and legitimate defense, with the exception of arms prohibited by federal law and those reserved for the exclusive use of the army, navy, air force and national guard. federal law will determine the cases, conditions, requirements, and places in which the carrying of arms will be authorized to the inhabitants. mexicanos are legally permitted to purchase certain firearms from a mexican agency called ucam. the selection of models is restricted, but those selections include many of those same models that are being confirep001ed from the cartels.

guns positively traced directly to the united states, according to reports published by atf, equals less than 12 percent of the total arms seized in mexico. this means that almost 90 percent of the guns seized in mexico were not traced back directly to the united states.

that 12% is just another result of their being a huge number of undocumented illegal aliens using false ids, false ssns, straw purchases, etc. the porous border problem can also be blamed directly for the supposed bogus charge that the us is the origin of illegal firearms and explosives being used by the cartels in mexico.

a very large portion of guns used by criminals are actually purchased in mexico, or stolen from their legitimate owners, who have purchased them through ucam, the mexican agency that sells mexican nationals their legal firearms. while ucam does have very strict regulations for civilians to purchase guns in mexico, criminals will use straw purchasers to obtain firearms from ucam, and / or obtain them from corrupt officials.

ucam is a mexican run agency. how many of us have faith in the integrity that there is little or no graft or corruption occurring in this agency? mexican agencies do not have the most stellar track record with respect to ethics, legality, justice, competence, etc.

it is not uncommon to see 38 super pistols seized from cartel figures, which is a caliber that is not popular in the united states. many of these pistols are of mexican origin. likewise, cartel hit men commonly use 380 pistols equipped with sound suppressors in their assassinations. in many cases, these pistols are purchased in mexico, the suppressors are locally manufactured, and the guns are adapted to receive the suppressors by mexican underworld gunsmiths.

with regard to tovex, grenades, ieds, etc. latin america is awash in weapons that were shipped-in over the past several decades from international sources of manufacture in order to supply the various insurgencies and counter insurgencies in that region of the world. when these military-grade weapons are combined with the rampant corruption in the region, they quickly find their way into the black market.

the mexican cartels have supply-chain contacts that help move narcotics to mexico from south america and they are able to use this same network to obtain guns from the black market in south and central america and then smuggle them into mexico. that is infinitely easier than to supposedly procure these from the us, where they are heavily regulated.

law rockets and m60 machine guns come into mexico from third world countries and not directly from the united states. most of the military ordnance used by the mexican cartels comes from the international illegal arms market, and increasingly from china, via the same networks that furnish precursor chemicals for narcotics manufacturing. these kinds of weapons also come from corrupt elements in the mexican military, and / or from deserters who take their weapons with them.

items such as south korean fragmentation grenades and rpg-7s, often used by the cartels, simply are not in the usa arsenal. this means that very few of the weapons in this category come from the united states, yet they are being used in significant numbers by the cartels.

it is not accurate to assign blame to the usa for the heinous acts of the cartels using firearms and / or explosives just because some of these firearms, which are legally made in the us (12% to be exact) , some even legally available for sale in mexico, are procured illegally in mexico on the black market from other world-wide illegitimate sources. [/quote]

[QUOTE=Jinxx;1122049]Damn, am I to blame for starting this whole discussion about the security situation, cartels, and crime, etc, etc? From now on I'll try to stick to the subject at hand (pussy). Sorry about the thread derail guys.[/QUOTE]

Don't fret over a thread derail. Besides, you aren't derailing anything. The hordes of members that could post their mongering activities, don't or won't (sarcasm). The point is, nothing is stopped them from posting their experiences. They are either not out there, or they aren't mongering, or they aren't actually participating in the hobby to begin with, and really don't know anything of substance, or they are bashful, or whatever.

Commenting here, regardless of the side bar topics, keeps the forum vibrant because lurkers that are reluctant to comment sometimes prefer to contact some of us privately for opinions or advice. So, maintaining participation, even through side tracked comments, has it's obscure value.

Besides, our comments aren't really totally unrelated to the subject at hand. The discussions we often have are directly related to our safety, living and negotiating life in Mexico, etc...Side comments about the conditions on the ground in Monterrey are relevant to our overall assessment of how things really are.

Besides, it is better that we all post "anything," even if it's slightly off topic, rather than allow the forum to go dark, which believe me, it will do were we all relegated to commenting strictly on mongering experiences.

Some members do occasionally post something concrete with respect to mongering, but most of us don't care to post stuff that we've already commented on because we've already commented on certain aspects of things a thousand times over the years. So, if something occurs in our mongering path that's notable, or unique, we post it. Or, in the event we see an interesting or controversial post, or opposed point of view with respect to mongering, or living in Monterrey, we will usually comment with our personal opinions. To repeatedly post stuff that some of us have already commented on a thousand times gets tedious and boring for us.

[QUOTE=Monterreydude; 1122078]"Guns positively traced directly to the United States, according to reports published by ATF, equals less than 12 percent of the total arms seized in Mexico. This means that almost 90 percent of the guns seized in Mexico were not traced back directly to the United States."

This part you got from the NRA and Fox News. Pure unadulterated BS. [/QUOTE]Sorry but I had to post one last comment, now even the Mexican officials (STRATFOR) say 90% of the arms DON'T come from the US.

Falso, que 90% de armas de narco vengan de EU: Stratfor.

[url]http://www.elmanana.com.mx/notas.asp?id=220276[/url]

[QUOTE=Monterreydude; 1122078]The southern ones El Centro, La Familia, are in constant war with the Cartel de Sinaloa, Cartel de Tijuana, La Linea, Cartel de Juarez, CDG, Zetas.

Quoting and I copy / paste Sen. Dick Durbin (D-Ill.) and Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) that the figure is 90% from the US.

But then, this is Fox News true to it's form: "None of the claims about the ATF allowing guns to cross the border have been conclusively proved. But Sen. Grassley has called for the ATF to be more transparent to allow the truth to come out."[/QUOTE]

"Sen. Dick Durbin (D-Ill.) and Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.), and Sen. Grassley?"

Hahahahahahahahhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!! I almost fell off my chair!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-)))

You forgot to include comments from:
Chris Mathews, Al Gore, Barney Frank, Dennis Kucinich, George Soros, Al Franken, Alan Greyson, Ted Kennedy (Oh, sorry, he's dead), Nancy Pelosi, Hillary Clinton, Barrack Obama, Janet Nepalitano, Arriana Huffington, Sonia Sotamayor, Harry Reid, Michael Moore, Frank Lautenberg, Barbara Mikulski, Chris Dodd, Rush Holt, Barbara Boxer, Henry Waxman, Charles Schumer, Anthony Weiner, Michael R. Bloomberg, etc...

Here's one scenario, just one...there are hundreds of others.

A submarine was captured by the Guatemalan Navy and US authorities 175 miles off of Guatemala's Pacific Coast. The submarine was bound for Guatemala after being loaded in Colombia. The drugs were bound for the United States after the drug couriers were to have smuggled the drugs into.........guess where............ MEXICO.

How hard is it to load automatic weapons, explosives, and pistols into a submarine? Most of the cartels have more money than most South American Countries, and an old submarine would be a drop in their proverbial bucket. The cartels are arguably wealthier than the country of Mexico, whose own armed forces seem almost totally ineffective against their might.

The Cartels in the North are simply bringing the drugs and the arms into Mexico by a variety of means, one of which is submarines, and these various other means cut the Southern Cartels completely out of the scenario.

Why do you think the Cartels are killing each other anyway? Because the Cartels in the North are being effective against the Cartels in the South, and visa versa. Nobody controls anything, including the Mexican Military.

Were anyone in particular in control, we would have relative peace in Mexico. Several years ago, the government and the cartels had agreements, which is why we had peace in Mexico several years ago...

[QUOTE=Unspongebob;1122163]Several years ago, the government and the cartels had agreements, which is why we had peace in Mexico several years ago...[/QUOTE]This is exactly what we need to go back to! Peace! If gringos want to buy drugs, THEN SELL THEM DRUGS!

What on god's green earth does Mexico have to gain by hopelessly fighting against the cartels?

If the cartels want to traffic drugs into the US the Mexican politicos should just take their bribe, let the traffickers pass peacefully, and go on about their busines. IN PEACE.

Americans want to complain about illegal immigrants and drugs coming across the border, WELL CONTROL YOUR F*CKING BORDER! It's that simple. Build your wall, beef up the border patrol, send out your drones and remote cameras. Problem solved. What's stopping you?

Mexicans need to wake up and realize that this war on drugs isn't ours to fight. Let the gringos deal with that crap, we have enough problems of our own. (BTW, I'm Mexican-American so I love / hate both countries equally.).

Wow. Just saw the news today. There is no hope in Mexico. The country is in a panic mode. 17 killed in Juarez. 35 injured and 9 killed in Guadalajara; 5 killed in Nayarit. 2 more cops die in Monterrey. All of this happend this week. The facts are there Spongebob. It is not safe in Mexico. You can literally go to Mexico and murder someone randomly and there will be no investigation. It's lawless.

Travel Warnings have been posted with DPS.

Basically, it's not about "drugs" anymore. It's about extortion!

It's really, really bad right now.

[quote=jinxx; 1122503]this is exactly what we need to go back to! peace! if gringos want to buy drugs, then sell them drugs!

what on god's green earth does mexico have to gain by hopelessly fighting against the cartels?

if the cartels want to traffic drugs into the us the mexican politicos should just take their bribe, let the traffickers pass peacefully, and go on about their busines. in peace.

americans want to complain about illegal immigrants and drugs coming across the border, well control your f*cking border! it's that simple. build your wall, beef up the border patrol, send out your drones and remote cameras. problem solved. what's stopping you?

mexicans need to wake up and realize that this war on drugs isn't ours to fight. let the gringos deal with that crap, we have enough problems of our own. (btw, i'm mexican-american so i love / hate both countries equally.). [/quote]

while many factors have contributed to the escalating violence, the beginning of the increasing violence can be traced back to the unraveling of a longtime arrangement between narcotics traffickers, the federal mexican government, and their state and local governmental agencies, which were controlled by the institutional revolutionary party (pri).

the pri lost its grip on political power starting in the late 1980s. but, during their reign they brokered agreements between the various cartels, which were much smaller in number, and therefore considerably more manageable. during this period, and to a certain extent, under vicente fox, things were really pretty calm in monterrey. i've often said you could walk the streets of el centro monterrey at 4am in the morning several years ago, prior to calderon, and be relatively safe, much more so than in any of the major downtown areas of any comparable us city.

prior to vicente fox, who mildly targeted the cartels as compared to calderon, the drug cartels and the mexican government were complicit with one another, and there was comparatively little violence as a result. by severing the government's complicit cooperation with the cartels, and actively pursuing them as criminals, the government escalated the violence between the cartels, which was bound to occur anyway to some extent, but perhaps not to the extent that has been experienced under calderon's aggressive pursuit of the cartels as criminal enterprises.

however, because of the increased number of cartels in the mix, and other political factors that now exist between the higher number of cartels, i'm not so sure that a deescalation of attempted control of the drug cartels would significantly reduce the violence. there are simply too many cartels now wanting a piece of the pie, and that kind of rivalry will increase the violence. so, while we might blame the mexican government's pursuit of drug cartels as criminal enterprises, the violence would have logically escalated as the numbers of additional cartels cropped up. the money is just too alluring, and the needs in mexico are just too great.

i believe the mexican government is growing increasingly concerned that the drug cartels directly threaten their own sovereignty. nobody likes to give up power, and the cartels are now arguably as powerful in mexico as the government itself. were the government to withdraw from the fight, they would likely be ensuring their own demise, becoming just puppets for the cartels, and the entire country of mexico would be just one big criminal enterprise, which some might argue is almost the case these days.

so, the argument that eliminating and regulating drugs may be the only solution. the government knows that were they to relinquish complete control of mexico to organized crime, many other criminal enterprises would flourish, and they would further damage mexican society as a whole. it isn't just about drugs for the government. allowing criminal enterprises to run whole countries can have nothing but a detrimental effect upon the lives of average, god fearing, good mexican citizens.

but, i can totally understand, and possibly agree with, why vicente fox has been calling for the legalization of drugs the last couple of years. it takes the profitability out of the scenario, and it removes the source of power for the cartels by cutting off the money that gives them the power to begin with.

if legalization is the ultimate solution to the violence, then a well regulated legalization of drugs, along with a huge, and i mean absolutely monumental, propaganda campaign to discourage it's use in mexico, and the us, might ultimately be the best solution. it would have to be a joint effort of strict regulation between the us and mexico, and there would have to be considerable effort made to discourage the use of drugs, perhaps tying penalties to the way drugs are used, rather than the mere possession and purchase.

for example, the penalties in the us have become much more strict for the use of alcohol. the penalties for the incorrect use of alcohol, ie: drinking and driving, drunk in public, etc...have become much more effective over the last twenty years. and, as a result of a relatively effective public service advertising campaign by groups like mad, there has become a much greater social stigma to drinking and driving.

that's the only way to responsibly legalize drugs, and reduce the overall damage drugs cause to society. drug use would have to be monitored, not permitted in public, or private parties, etc...drug use, through stigmatizing it's use with the young, would be the only responsible way to legalize and regulate it's purchase, and possession.

actual drug "use," as in where and how drugs can be legally used or possessed, would have to be heavily regulated. that would take the money out of the scenario, and it would considerably reduce the power of the mexican and us drug cartels. but, obtaining it would be legal, taking the money out of it, but at the same time criminalizing it's use under circumstances that would be detrimental to society as a whole, and to the fabric of american/mexican society and culture.

take firearms as an example...firearms are well regulated in the us, and their proper use is well regulated. but, they are legal to purchase and possess with the proper documentation and government approval, which took the money out of the whole scenario. were guns illegal in the us, they would be three to ten times their present cost, or more, just as they currently are in mexico now. but, the end result of legalization of the sale and possession of guns in the us has taken all the profit out of guns for the sellers. just ask any legitimate gun dealer in the us. now, of course, there is always a black market, and those sales will always yield higher profit margins. but, for the most part, legal guns in the us are cheap, and the only people actually making any money on guns are the gun runners making illegal sales, and smuggling guns to mexico, and other countries.

with respect to drugs, perhaps only permitting their use "alone," in private, with no other participants, no public possession permitted, etc...perhaps that would take the money out of procurement, decriminalizing it's use, but criminalizing the detrimental way in which drugs are possessed and used.

maybe with significant stigmatization of the use through advertising, propaganda, etc...it would not have the same appeal it currently has to so many millions of americans and mexicans. that would be the purest ultimate solution, so that demand is no longer what drives the industry. many people that become hooked on drugs do so on account of peer pressure, fitting-in, socialization, being accepted by peers, etc...and most that become part of the drug culture, do so at a young age.

the old farts don't give a shit whether they're popular or accepted, and they're smarter too, not wanting to add to what they know from experience is already a difficult life without adding other vices to drag one down. the stigmatizing of drug use would have to heavily target the young. obviously, there will always those people that will fall through the cracks, and ignore the warnings, even some old-farts. legalization might still be a problem for those who have a propensity for addictions of all kinds, but it would significantly reduce the overall violent affect of the drug industry as we know it today, both in the us and mexico, which many could argue is just as much a scourge on the culture and society of the us and mexico as the use of drugs.

[QUOTE=Marius 67; 1122774]Wow. Just saw the news today. There is no hope in Mexico. The country is in a panic mode. 17 killed in Juarez. 35 injured and 9 killed in Guadalajara; 5 killed in Nayarit. 2 more cops die in Monterrey. All of this happend this week. The facts are there Spongebob. It is not safe in Mexico. You can literally go to Mexico and murder someone randomly and there will be no investigation. It's lawless.

Travel Warnings have been posted with DPS.

Basically, it's not about "drugs" anymore. It's about extortion!

It's really, really bad right now. [/QUOTE]

Fine Marius, just stay on your side of the border. That just leaves more girls for me. Lets see, you sighted a total of 68 people this week, and of course, not all of them were "killed," that's total killed and injured.

Lets see, there are 5 million just living in the Monterrey area alone. I will conservatively estimate that between all the locations you just sighted for us, there are at least 10 million people.

If my math is correct, that is 1 in. 0000068. Talk to me when the odds are more like 1/1000 and I might listen. Until then, I'll take my chances.

I have never heard of anybody being killed here in the good ole US of A. The American people are controlled by the media like puppets.