Stupid Shit in Kyiv

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2915646]So if you believe Ukraine can win, tell me this: what does a Ukraine victory look like in your view? What defines Ukraine winning?[/QUOTE]There is no "victory" for the tens of thousands of Ukrainians who have been killed, wounded, mutilated or tortured in this war. A partial justice would be if Russia withdrew to the internationally recognized borders, to which it is a guarantor, detained all persons accused of war crimes or waging a war of aggression and remanded them to the International Court of Justice in the Hague, and began to pay reparations to Ukraine for damaged caused by its illegal actions.

However, in the short term, I believe that the Crimean peninsula is strategically untenable. I hope and expect that with the arrival of F-16's and longer range munitions, Ukraine will finally be able to advance through Melitopol and sever the land bridge to Russia, forcing the evacuation and surrender of Crimea. I wish that this disaster would cause the removal of Putin and the governing hierarchy, the end of government information control in the Russian Federation, and the normalization of relationships between the West and Russia.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2915688]There is no "victory" for the tens of thousands of Ukrainians who have been killed, wounded, mutilated or tortured in this war. A partial justice would be if Russia withdrew to the internationally recognized borders, to which it is a guarantor, detained all persons accused of war crimes or waging a war of aggression and remanded them to the International Court of Justice in the Hague, and began to pay reparations to Ukraine for damaged caused by its illegal actions.[/QUOTE]Well, if that is your definition of what victory looks like, I'm afraid NONE of that is ever going to happen. The 4 new territories + Crimea are gone forever. The longer this goes on, the more territory Ukraine will lose.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2915688]

However, in the short term, I believe that the Crimean peninsula is strategically untenable. I hope and expect that with the arrival of F-16's and longer range munitions, Ukraine will finally be able to advance through Melitopol and sever the land bridge to Russia, forcing the evacuation and surrender of Crimea.[/QUOTE]You are seriously on drugs or just delusional. Or you have ZERO knowledge of military matters. Last year, when the much hyped Ukranian counter offenseive started, that was Ukraine's BEST CHANCE to make any impact on the outcome of the war, it was their last roll of the dice. At that time, Ukraine had NATO trained fresh brigades, a ton of western weapons worth billions of dollars. And what was the outcome of the counter offensive? They succeeded in taking Robotyne, a tiny village. They didn't even reach Tokmak! And you think now Ukraine will reach Melitopol and severe the land bridge and threaten Crimea? You live in lala land. The F16's won't make any difference, just like the ATACMS didn't, just like HIMARS didn't, just like storm shadow / scalp / Abrams / Leopards didn't. They will all burn.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2915688] I wish that this disaster would cause the removal of Putin and the governing hierarchy, the end of government information control in the Russian Federation, and the normalization of relationships between the West and Russia.[/QUOTE]I'm afraid none of your wishes are going to come true. But you can continue to wish and dream. The reality is quickly unfolding before your eyes in Donetsk and Kharkov.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2915688]There is no "victory" for the tens of thousands of Ukrainians who have been killed, wounded, mutilated or tortured in this war. A partial justice would be if Russia withdrew to the internationally recognized borders, to which it is a guarantor, detained all persons accused of war crimes or waging a war of aggression and remanded them to the International Court of Justice in the Hague, and began to pay reparations to Ukraine for damaged caused by its illegal actions.

However, in the short term, I believe that the Crimean peninsula is strategically untenable. I hope and expect that with the arrival of F-16's and longer range munitions, Ukraine will finally be able to advance through Melitopol and sever the land bridge to Russia, forcing the evacuation and surrender of Crimea. I wish that this disaster would cause the removal of Putin and the governing hierarchy, the end of government information control in the Russian Federation, and the normalization of relationships between the West and Russia.[/QUOTE]JC you and Xman are smoking the same crap. The war is over, it has been over for several months, the only thing that would save Ukraine if the states and NATO decided to send 100,000's of troops. NATO has nothing to send and the states are not prepared for war with Russia. Not to mention we are running low on weapons and ammunition, we have given way too much to a lost cause. Counter to what the media says Russia Army is well equipped and seasoned fighters now, we would probably get our ass kicked.

The liberals, America and the Euros created this disaster, the only way to save Ukraine is to surrender, before there is nothing left. You guys really screwed up this time, no plane, weapon or large some of money will change anything. Russia continues to get stronger while the west and the Euros get weaker.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2915696]... I'm afraid NONE of that is ever going to happen. The 4 new territories + Crimea are gone forever...[/QUOTE]Russia can not supply Crimea. They will soon be gone -- wait for it.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2915731]Russia can not supply Crimea. They will soon be gone -- wait for it.[/QUOTE]You have no idea what you are talking about. Let me educate you.

Even before the Kerch bridge was constructed, Russia could supply Crimea via air and ferry route. Plus, now there is a land bridge from the new territories to Crimea, a rail link recently completed.

[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2915706]JC you and Xman are smoking the same crap. The war is over, it has been over for several months, the only thing that would save Ukraine if the states and NATO decided to send 100,000's of troops. NATO has nothing to send and the states are not prepared for war with Russia. Not to mention we are running low on weapons and ammunition, we have given way too much to a lost cause. Counter to what the media says Russia Army is well equipped and seasoned fighters now, we would probably get our ass kicked.

The liberals, America and the Euros created this disaster, the only way to save Ukraine is to surrender, before there is nothing left. You guys really screwed up this time, no plane, weapon or large some of money will change anything. Russia continues to get stronger while the west and the Euros get weaker.[/QUOTE]The war ended after Ukraine's last throw of the dice, the much hyped counter offensive launched in 2023 FAILED miserably. They managed to take Robatino only, can you imagine? And Russia recaptured it today. Unbelievable.

These people still do not understand that it isn't about money or ammunition. This is about MANPOWER now. Ukraine is out of manpower. You cannot print soldiers.

NATO is not going to get involved. These people don't want to help Ukraine win, they want to make Russia bleed / weak. Llyod Austin openly said this back in 2022! The sooner Ukraine realizes this, the better off they will be. The warmongers in the collective west took Ukraine down the primrose path. These people are pure evil.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2915786]
These people still do not understand that it isn't about money or ammunition. This is about MANPOWER now. Ukraine is out of manpower. You cannot print soldiers.
NATO is not going to get involved. These people don't want to help Ukraine win, they want to make Russia bleed / weak. [/QUOTE]Unfortunately, the facts prove, what you write. Western countries simply dragged out serious support of UA, which believed the Wests cheap words. Unfortunately.

I only remind the 5000 helmets, Germany sent as "First Aid" after the war started, or the long discussions regarding Leopard tanks, or the long delays of fresh US money. Not to mention the failed promise of 1 Mio artillery shells. I am not a big fan of the US, but as a German engineer, I know, that the Americans can be VERY FAST to build up industrial facilities.

In case they really want. Production of shells is not too complicated a process.

The West simply cheated UA. To break up UA, part to the West (Poland?) part to Putler?

[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2915797]Unfortunately, the facts prove, what you write. Western countries simply dragged out serious support of UA, which believed the Wests cheap words. Unfortunately.

I only remind the 5000 helmets, Germany sent as "First Aid" after the war started, or the long discussions regarding Leopard tanks, or the long delays of fresh US money. Not to mention the failed promise of 1 Mio artillery shells. I am not a big fan of the US, but as a German engineer, I know, that the Americans can be VERY FAST to build up industrial facilities.

In case they really want. Production of shells is not too complicated a process.

The West simply cheated UA. To break up UA, part to the West (Poland?) part to Putler?[/QUOTE]And Ukraine still is believing the collective wests bullshit words it seems. Or who knows, I don't know what the ordinary Ukrainian thinks. The corrupt Kiev regime will want this to go on as long as possible so they can keep bagging billions, they don't seem to care that the country is getting depopulated and wrecked.

And like you said, they hesitated and delayed sending what Ukraine really needed to have made a difference. They took Ukraine down the primrose path. The goal was to make Russia weak and to make it bleed, NOT to make Ukraine win. I wish Ukrainian supporters would admit that. Now they are dangling the carrot of Ukraine joining NATO one day. Write this down: Ukraine will NEVER join NATO. They know this but are still giving this false hope to the poor Ukrainians. Pure evil like I said. And yes, Ukraine will be divided.

Everything East of the Dniper plus Odessa will be Russia most likely. What is left will be a dysfunctional rump state unviable to ever join the EU and will never join NATO as I said. Who knows, the Poles, Hungarians may swallow up some territory as well. Zelensky if he succeeds in running away like Ghani did in Afghanistan will be living overseas in one of his mansions. That man is a curse for Ukraine, history will judge him very harshly.

[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2915797]Unfortunately, the facts prove, what you write. Western countries simply dragged out serious support of UA, which believed the Wests cheap words. Unfortunately.

I only remind the 5000 helmets, Germany sent as "First Aid" after the war started, or the long discussions regarding Leopard tanks, or the long delays of fresh US money. Not to mention the failed promise of 1 Mio artillery shells. I am not a big fan of the US, but as a German engineer, I know, that the Americans can be VERY FAST to build up industrial facilities.

In case they really want. Production of shells is not too complicated a process.

The West simply cheated UA. To break up UA, part to the West (Poland?) part to Putler?[/QUOTE]For the "collective West" (as Russian shills cordially call all of us) this is a process. In democratic countries, helping others with anything, finances or munitions takes time and torturous debates and discussions. I too would've been much happier if this had been done in a jiffy, but the "collective West" is not a bunch of Putinstans where everything and everyone bends to the whim of one person. In the US specifically, the military aid had been held hostage to our internal politics, not even mentioning the little fact that Nato (go figure!) just doesn't make enough armaments for a big war.

This is unfortunate, but it is what it is. What are you going to do, as they say here in Brooklyn.

There hasn't been any menace in the West dragging its feet. Stupidity, cowardice, greed -- yes. Malice -- no. Your interpretation of the West's intentions is simply way off.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2915933] Or who knows, I don't know what the ordinary Ukrainian thinks.
[/QUOTE]The shame is unbearble for fighting men outside the trenches to look at each other. Even I as an outsider am looking at these dudes a little funny. Brothers are in need and not stepping up.

[QUOTE=Riina;2916071]The shame is unbearble for fighting men outside the trenches to look at each other. Even I as an outsider am looking at these dudes a little funny. Brothers are in need and not stepping up.[/QUOTE]Russians like you don't speak for Ukrainians, I was there recently, and they are grateful for the help they are getting and looking forward to using it to kick the invading force out of their country.

[QUOTE=VinDici;2916299]Russians like you don't speak for Ukrainians, I was there recently, and they are grateful for the help they are getting and looking forward to using it to kick the invading force out of their country.[/QUOTE]Ten years ago at the onset of the war, 10 out of 10 Ukrainians outside of Ukraine would have firmly said yes to a call from the motherland. Now it's a zero out of ten. What changed?

[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2915706]JC you and Xman are smoking the same crap. The war is over, it has been over for several months[/QUOTE]Yeah, and the bullshit reason we were given was to weaken Russia. It was just pols handing money to defense contractors who handed it back to them in the form of donations.

[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2915706] the only thing that would save Ukraine if the states and NATO decided to send 100,000's of troops.[/QUOTE]And that is another reason to vote Trump. Biden said he wanted that and is crazy enough to do it. To quote a famous general:

WAR is a racket. It always has been.

It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.

I cannot believe how much fucking debt we racked up in the Iraq war for oil and what mattered to get more oil was not an invasion but to refine a drilling technique. The war on Covid cost like $10 trillion and now you got this one which ironically is mild in comparison. WTF did we get for all that money spent? Anything?

That is the thing with Democratic douches. They have no concept of how much things cost.

Chime in the Democratic douche who says, "Iraq was a Republican war. " Yeah, no shit, so why is this one any better?

And now the douches will say, it was an unprovoked attack on a sovereign country. Please. It was a provoked attack and everyone with even a speck of knowledge knows it.

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2916540]
And that is another reason to vote Trump. Biden said he wanted that and is crazy enough to do it. .[/QUOTE]It's hard to say but to be fair, I think Biden has been consistent from the get-go in saying that there won't be any American boots on the ground. He realizes that if he did that it would mean a possible nuclear showdown with Russia, which no one wants. Is he being reckless in provoking Russia? Of course. But NATO or the collective west won't get involved by putting their soldiers on the ground or even enforcing some sort of no-fly zone. Macron is talking out of his ass and full of shit. The collective west is happy to fund Ukraine, they have plenty of money to throw away it seems. And they are happy to supply enough weapons to Ukraine, so Ukraine doesn't win or doesn't collapse quickly either. The aim is to make Russia bleed and weak, until the last Ukrainian. That's sick but it's the horrific reality.

[QUOTE=Riina;2916071]The shame is unbearble for fighting men outside the trenches to look at each other. Even I as an outsider am looking at these dudes a little funny. Brothers are in need and not stepping up.[/QUOTE]I can understand a Ukrainian sitting in the trenches feeling pissed at the men overseas running away from serving. But then I put myself in the shoes of a Ukranian living overseas, in his 20's or 30's, fighting age and I can understand them not wanting to come back and being sent to the meat grinder with little to no training and face certain death. Who can blame them?