Moscow

Thanks for your advices on the Mafia situation in Moscow. I feel more confident with my trip now.

Can you guys explain more to me about the "Tochcas" please. I saw a photo of about 20 girls in a semi circle with a car head lights shining on them on this site but don't fully understand how it works and how I can meet up with the organises of these "Tochcas" so I can meet these girls.

Tochka:

Tochka means "point" and is essentially Moscow's form of street prostitution. The tochkas (actually tochki) are organised by the mafia (there's your mafia if you are really looking for it) and are conducted nightly from about dusk til dawn. There can be numerous tochkas all over the city, anywhere from the outskirts to the center.

For example, you will usually find tochkas on Leninsky prospekt, Leningradsky prospekt, behind the "3 train stations", on the Garden Ring, Mira Prospekt, near Lubyanka etc. They aren't confined to a single place and can often be in the same place for a few days or weeks, or move nightly. There is no way you can just "go to a tochka" that is at a particular place. You will have to take a taxi.

Finding tochkas:

Take a taxi as stated above. The best time to look is after about 9pm, that's when most girls show up for duty. When you flag down a taxi, ask him to take you to a tochka. Either he will say ok and try and drive you around until he finds one, or he will refuse and drive away. Some people dont want to take you there because of the danger of the police stopping them. The police often hang around known tochka areas hoping to stop your car and get a bribe. Before you go on a tochka tour, make sure your docs are in order, including your visa registration. Some drivers, particularly older ones, may be offended by your request or simply not know what you mean or where to go. If you cant find a taxi, you may pick up a taxi in front of CF (Boarhouse), which is across from Kursky train station. The drivers there will charge you more, but they will also know where to go.

The driver will drive on the road to those areas where he thinks he might find a tochka, usually the areas I mentioned above, Leninsky prospekt, Leningradsky prospekt, behind the "3 train stations", on the Garden Ring, Mira Prospekt, near Lubyanka etc. There he will see a woman standing along side the road seeking eye contact with drivers. She is the "beacon girl". He will stop in front of her and she will tell him which way to drive to find the tochka. Usually it is in a back alley or side street near her. Then the driver will drive to the area and you will see a mamachka (madam who organises the girls) and probably some other customers. Often there will be a few vans parked nearby in which the girls wait for customers. In the summer the girls may be milling about outside.

Viewing the menu:

Once there, you will have to talk to the mamachka. It definitely helps to speak at least basic Russian, don't expect her to speak English. She will tell you the prices at that particular tochka and ask you which girls you want to see. The prices may be in rubles or dollars.

Lately the prices are as follows:
$100 (3000 rubles): entry level girls, usually pretty skanky, 4-6 in quality
$150 (4500 rubles): mid-level girls, 6-7 in quality, occasional gems
$200 (6000 rubles): so-called top girls, 6-8 in quality

Sometimes there are $80 (2500 rubles) categories (really skanky) or even $250 (7500 rubles) categories.

Price for a particular girl may vary depending on time of day and particularly day of the week. For example a $100 girl may go for $150 on a Saturday night or a $200 girl for $150 on a Monday night etc. Generally Monday-Wednesday are my favorite nights in terms of price and selection, since there is less competition.

After you tell the mamachka which category you want, she will yell out loud "$100" or "4500 rubles" or whatever and the girls will line up in front of the car.

The size of the tochka also varies, from 1 girl to 50. On average there are about 10 girls in each category.

After making your selection, you pay the mamachka, wait for your girl to arrive and leave.

You should select wisely and pay attention to details. Of course it is at night, but try to get a look at her body (she will open her coat if you tell her to do so), look at her teeth or whatever. If nothing is available, you may go to another tochka.

Driving to the apartment or hotel:

This is the "fun part", as the police do prowl the streets looking to stop cars with tochka girls and their customers. Some tochkas are in cahoots with the police and may set you up. If you are stopped, remain calm. You are in no physical danger. It is all about a bribe. They will examine your docs and if all is ok leave you alone. They will probably find a problem with her docs, as she is probably not from Moscow and may not even be Russian, instead being from Ukraine, Moldava or Belarus. If they take her back to the squad car or say she must go to station you can either let her go (and lose your money) or bribe the cops. It should cost between ($20-50) 500-1500 rubles "straff".

If you make it back to the hotel or apartment ok (90% of the time you will not be stopped) you are home free.

Paying the taxi:
The taxi should get between 500-700 rubles for his services, depending on the length of your tour and how many tochkas were visited.

The deal:
The girl is yours until about 8am the next day, as much sex as you want or can handle. Normally they will kiss and give great GFE. Anal is an option, but up to her. Money talks.

The damage:
At this point you may be asking yourself "why tochka??" as it can be an expensive endeavour:

Assuming you choose a mid-level girl:

$150: the girl
$25: the taxi
$25: possible militia bribe
$10: tip for girl

You are already at $210 dollars, which will also buy you sex elsewhere.

So "Why tochka"?

First of all, its an adventure you'll never forget. Anyone who has done it admits that the whole process can be fun... driving around the city, dirty back alleys, the element of danger, the mafia, the cops, the "skankiness".

Second of all, you get the girl all-night. She is in many ways at your mercy. Generally speaking, they do everything and if you are both nice and "demanding", you will get all you want.

Third, the girls. They are often pretty common girls, very basic, but fun and suprisingly sweet. Some of my all time favorites are from the tochka.

"Why not tochka"

Tochka girls are almost the lowest on the pro sex food chain, besides the "vodka *****s" down by the Kievsky Voksal. Some are forced into the trade, many don't really enjoy their work, the can be desperate. You should always take care of all health issues and be careful. These girls never get to chose whom they fuck. Sometimes they get beaten or sold out to groups of men. It is the gateway to a darker side of the sex trade in Russia and one you may or may not want to enter. I personally never got past the gate and dont want to. I've almost always enjoyed my tochka girls, but do realize that even as nice as I might have been to them, their lives are hardly full of sunshine and happiness. Many save the meagre earnings from their work and send it home to mama or papa.. or to their boyfriends. They earn about 35% of what you paid the mamachka. Some of them are forced to stay in Moscow to "earn off" the price it took to get them there from Moldava or Belarus. Many are treated as "goods". They usually live together with other girls in Moscow's suburbs. There are of course many independent "regular" girls working tochka as well, but you never know what you are going to get and never know what the girl's past, future or fate holds.

That's the tochka story, a Moscow institution.

Strav & Doc,

Even the Russians replied to my emails, and the agency I contacted after Rick's problem sorted out my visa invitation within 24hrs, then gave me the apartment I booked (which is a surprise because, as Strav said, I never got the one I booked in Ukraine). But we can close the debate here....

Blastoff,

Just do a search for "Tochka", there are tons of posts on that already (in particular by CA_T when he originally posted the picture you refer to ;)). You'll need a car and to speak Russian in the first place and, reading your previous posts and your concern about safety and mafia, I don't think you should go to a tochka. There are plenty of other opportunities in Moscow.

Jim

[i][u]Edited[/u]: Didn't see that Doc has posted a very detailed explanation while I was typing :D. I'll just add one thing: You should be able to speak Russian.... [/i]

doc... very nice detailed report. I'd add, 2100 is probably just a little early and most girls don't show up until 2200 or so. However, the nice thing about going early in the summer is that you have more light. That said, I ALWAYS carry a flashlight, little one or one of the LED ones on my key chain... unless I forget! :) Besides, it will probably come in handy at one point or another in your apartment hallway when the single bare light bulb is burned out... Is Russia a great country or what???

Also, some of my best experiences in Moscow have been with tochka girls, but you really never know what she'll be like, but again isn't that true with anyone you take home???

Tochka girls are probably the "lowest on the food chain"... Probably true of our scale, BUT the real "low end" hangs around the train stations offering a BJ... no doubt BBBJ2C... for 100 rubles. Personally, I'll pass on that treat!

I disagree with GJ a little though in that I don't think your exploration of the hobby in Moscow is complete without a visit to a tochka... just to see it if nothing else! I suspect that if you hang around CF a little you'll find someone to go with you, hopefully someone who speaks just a little English. There's really no reason to go far and just around the Garden Ring should be enough unless there is a G8 meeting or something that forces them closed.

One more tip... if you or your wingman don't speak Russki, use your cell phone to type out the dollar/ruble amount that you want to see. By all means look at all of them... one person's trash is another persons treasure.

Secondly, don't be afraid to get out of the car... they won't bite and every RU car I've ever been in has dirty, pitted windshields and dim headlights. Get up close to the girl, smile at her and see if she smiles back. They will get more friendly after you pick them but it's nice to see if a little chemistry builds before you pay your money.

Excellant report......i think no one needs to know till six months down the line ...what tochka is all about...

Hi,
Congrats and thanks for the great report. It explained basically everything one might want to know about the Tochka System.
And you are right I believe it is an experience one will not forget easily (Ill try as soon as I learn russian and go to Moscow) ;).
It puts adventure back into mongering!!!
regards

Gents,

After 3 years in Bucharest (really ejoyed the action there), I moved to Moscow.
This weekend it will be my first time going out in the city and I would be grateful for any recommendation.

Basically I am for the beginning interested in some decent bars and pubs - eventually with decent semi-pro's if this scene is existing here in Moscow. For the later hours of the evening everything should be possible :) - however I don't speak Russian nor have the chance to take her to my place.

Thank you for your recommendations via PM,

DerWirt

In the spirit of Doc's superb, encyclopedic post on tochkas ... anybody want to tackle the Internet girls? For instance:

Апартаменты: Any chance a non-Russian speaker can succeed in this? Perhaps with the help of a cab driver? Are there apartments inside the boulevard ring, or in the Arbat area?

Выезд: Do you have to speak Russian to "order" an incall visitor to a western-style hotel? What about communicating via email? Any chance the girl will resemble the (really great) images on intimcity and dosug.nu?

I have not had language problems in other countries ... intentions are pretty easy to figure out! But Russia seems to offer special challenges.

Dr_Shank, your knowledge on this subject and Moscow in general has been invaluable not only to me but many others. I thank you for that. This is what this board is all about. Other experienced mongers need to take a leaf from your book in my opinion.

Prices:

It seems disproportionate that a Tochka girl will cost USD$100, $150 or $200 for the night when you consider that a university graduate earns USD$70 per month working in an office. I have always related the cost of sex in countries to the weekly or monthly salary but it appears that in Russia this formula does not work. What is your opinion on the reasoning behind the hight price for sex in Russia? Is it a supply and demand situation and so many men what sex that the prices are sky high or is it that there are fewer women in Russia than me? Just a curious question. Thanks.



[QUOTE=Doctor_Skank]Tochka:

Tochka means "point" and is essentially Moscow's form of street prostitution. The tochkas (actually tochki) are organised by the mafia (there's your mafia if you are really looking for it) and are conducted nightly from about dusk til dawn. There can be numerous tochkas all over the city, anywhere from the outskirts to the center.

For example, you will usually find tochkas on Leninsky prospekt, Leningradsky prospekt, behind the "3 train stations", on the Garden Ring, Mira Prospekt, near Lubyanka etc. They aren't confined to a single place and can often be in the same place for a few days or weeks, or move nightly. There is no way you can just "go to a tochka" that is at a particular place. You will have to take a taxi.

Finding tochkas:

Take a taxi as stated above. The best time to look is after about 9pm, that's when most girls show up for duty. When you flag down a taxi, ask him to take you to a tochka. Either he will say ok and try and drive you around until he finds one, or he will refuse and drive away. Some people dont want to take you there because of the danger of the police stopping them. The police often hang around known tochka areas hoping to stop your car and get a bribe. Before you go on a tochka tour, make sure your docs are in order, including your visa registration. Some drivers, particularly older ones, may be offended by your request or simply not know what you mean or where to go. If you cant find a taxi, you may pick up a taxi in front of CF (Boarhouse), which is across from Kursky train station. The drivers there will charge you more, but they will also know where to go.

The driver will drive on the road to those areas where he thinks he might find a tochka, usually the areas I mentioned above, Leninsky prospekt, Leningradsky prospekt, behind the "3 train stations", on the Garden Ring, Mira Prospekt, near Lubyanka etc. There he will see a woman standing along side the road seeking eye contact with drivers. She is the "beacon girl". He will stop in front of her and she will tell him which way to drive to find the tochka. Usually it is in a back alley or side street near her. Then the driver will drive to the area and you will see a mamachka (madam who organises the girls) and probably some other customers. Often there will be a few vans parked nearby in which the girls wait for customers. In the summer the girls may be milling about outside.

Viewing the menu:

Once there, you will have to talk to the mamachka. It definitely helps to speak at least basic Russian, don't expect her to speak English. She will tell you the prices at that particular tochka and ask you which girls you want to see. The prices may be in rubles or dollars.

Lately the prices are as follows:
$100 (3000 rubles): entry level girls, usually pretty skanky, 4-6 in quality
$150 (4500 rubles): mid-level girls, 6-7 in quality, occasional gems
$200 (6000 rubles): so-called top girls, 6-8 in quality

Sometimes there are $80 (2500 rubles) categories (really skanky) or even $250 (7500 rubles) categories.

Price for a particular girl may vary depending on time of day and particularly day of the week. For example a $100 girl may go for $150 on a Saturday night or a $200 girl for $150 on a Monday night etc. Generally Monday-Wednesday are my favorite nights in terms of price and selection, since there is less competition.

After you tell the mamachka which category you want, she will yell out loud "$100" or "4500 rubles" or whatever and the girls will line up in front of the car.

The size of the tochka also varies, from 1 girl to 50. On average there are about 10 girls in each category.

After making your selection, you pay the mamachka, wait for your girl to arrive and leave.

You should select wisely and pay attention to details. Of course it is at night, but try to get a look at her body (she will open her coat if you tell her to do so), look at her teeth or whatever. If nothing is available, you may go to another tochka.

Driving to the apartment or hotel:

This is the "fun part", as the police do prowl the streets looking to stop cars with tochka girls and their customers. Some tochkas are in cahoots with the police and may set you up. If you are stopped, remain calm. You are in no physical danger. It is all about a bribe. They will examine your docs and if all is ok leave you alone. They will probably find a problem with her docs, as she is probably not from Moscow and may not even be Russian, instead being from Ukraine, Moldava or Belarus. If they take her back to the squad car or say she must go to station you can either let her go (and lose your money) or bribe the cops. It should cost between ($20-50) 500-1500 rubles "straff".

If you make it back to the hotel or apartment ok (90% of the time you will not be stopped) you are home free.

Paying the taxi:
The taxi should get between 500-700 rubles for his services, depending on the length of your tour and how many tochkas were visited.

The deal:
The girl is yours until about 8am the next day, as much sex as you want or can handle. Normally they will kiss and give great GFE. Anal is an option, but up to her. Money talks.

The damage:
At this point you may be asking yourself "why tochka??" as it can be an expensive endeavour:

Assuming you choose a mid-level girl:

$150: the girl
$25: the taxi
$25: possible militia bribe
$10: tip for girl

You are already at $210 dollars, which will also buy you sex elsewhere.

So "Why tochka"?

First of all, its an adventure you'll never forget. Anyone who has done it admits that the whole process can be fun... driving around the city, dirty back alleys, the element of danger, the mafia, the cops, the "skankiness".

Second of all, you get the girl all-night. She is in many ways at your mercy. Generally speaking, they do everything and if you are both nice and "demanding", you will get all you want.

Third, the girls. They are often pretty common girls, very basic, but fun and suprisingly sweet. Some of my all time favorites are from the tochka.

"Why not tochka"

Tochka girls are almost the lowest on the pro sex food chain, besides the "vodka *****s" down by the Kievsky Voksal. Some are forced into the trade, many don't really enjoy their work, the can be desperate. You should always take care of all health issues and be careful. These girls never get to chose whom they fuck. Sometimes they get beaten or sold out to groups of men. It is the gateway to a darker side of the sex trade in Russia and one you may or may not want to enter. I personally never got past the gate and dont want to. I've almost always enjoyed my tochka girls, but do realize that even as nice as I might have been to them, their lives are hardly full of sunshine and happiness. Many save the meagre earnings from their work and send it home to mama or papa.. or to their boyfriends. They earn about 35% of what you paid the mamachka. Some of them are forced to stay in Moscow to "earn off" the price it took to get them there from Moldava or Belarus. Many are treated as "goods". They usually live together with other girls in Moscow's suburbs. There are of course many independent "regular" girls working tochka as well, but you never know what you are going to get and never know what the girl's past, future or fate holds.

That's the tochka story, a Moscow institution.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Blastoff]Dr_Shank, your knowledge on this subject and Moscow in general has been invaluable not only to me but many others. I thank you for that. This is what this board is all about. Other experienced mongers need to take a leaf from your book in my opinion.

Prices:

It seems disproportionate that a Tochka girl will cost USD$100, $150 or $200 for the night when you consider that a university graduate earns USD$70 per month working in an office. I have always related the cost of sex in countries to the weekly or monthly salary but it appears that in Russia this formula does not work. What is your opinion on the reasoning behind the hight price for sex in Russia? Is it a supply and demand situation and so many men what sex that the prices are sky high or is it that there are fewer women in Russia than me? Just a curious question. Thanks.[/QUOTE]



70USD a month for a universuty graduate - outdated information. Now minimum is 300-500USD, depends on work. Some young people make this money without any education at all, for ex. as consultants in clothes or electronic shops. Web-desighners make 200-250USD for creating a web-site, which you can do after a 10-day course which will cost you 100USD only (oh, I must go for such a course =)) my site is terrible, don't go there), the same is a daily rate for a photographer, but he needs a cam, which is a bit more expensive, and the course is also longer.

Blastoff:

First of all its Doc Skank and not Doc Shank... :) And everything I learned about tochka I learned from Ca_T, ISG's tochka pioneer.

In Russia, and particularly Moscow, you cant relate average incomes to cost of sex. It is supply and demand, and demand is high. Moreover, average wages in Moscow are fairly high and the number of really rich Russians and foreigners is staggering.

In some ways the tochka prices are disproportionate however, at least in comparison to other options. Internet and salon girls seem to be best value for the money and average a bit lower than tochka girls. They however wont stay the night for $150, but only for about 2 hours. Girls from CF (Boarhouse) will average about the same price and are usually more polished than tochka girls, but also often more professional in a negative sense. They also dont always stay the night for $150. As I stated, the charm of tochka girls really isnt the price but rather the fact that they are true "over-nighters" and often very appreciative when they get a decent customer. They usually have more "girl next door" charm than "sex bomb" charm if you know what I mean. Some of them are downright fuck machines too, I've had more than one that refused to give up after 2 or 3 rounds and insisted on banging all night. I've also had one or two who were lousy, but that's the way it goes. Generally though, I've enjoyed them. Another interesting aspect that turns me on is the "shadiness" of it... it seems a bit forbidden, a bit dangerous, and this appeals to me. Internet and salon girls seem a bit too "fast food" for me, even though technically there is probably little difference.

BTW, a university graduate doesnt earn $70 a month in Moscow. I'll give you an example. My ex-gf works in an office for a western finance company. She nets about $2000 a month, is 26, lives in an apartment her parents bought, rides the metro and at the end of the month after all normal expenses has about $1500 spending money, plus that which her parents give her. This is a highly intelligent, hard-working and cute girl... but there are plenty of those in Moscow.. so actually pretty average for that vibrant city. And that is about the same or maybe even more than a similar uni grad in Sweden would earn net. Russians pay a 18% flat rate tax (if I remember correctly). Don't feel too sorry for Moscow girls, they aren't living in squalor.

Sure you will find uneducated or minimally educated girls in Moscow earning $200-500 working in shops or as waitresses, but this is already twice as much as they would earn in rural Russia or Ukraine.

When I first went to Russia a few years ago the tochka prices were $50/70/100, CF was $70/100 and NF was $100-200... so you see how the sex market has developed in the last 5-7 years.

This doesnt have to be judged negatively though. Moscow is expensive and the girls living there need money. Because they do, you will still find plenty of girls who will fuck for money since this is a fairly lucrative business for many of them. If they didnt need the money, there probably wouldnt be so much available on the market.

[QUOTE=etaoin2003]In the spirit of Doc's superb, encyclopedic post on tochkas ... anybody want to tackle the Internet girls? For instance:

Апартаменты: Any chance a non-Russian speaker can succeed in this? Perhaps with the help of a cab driver? Are there apartments inside the boulevard ring, or in the Arbat area?

Выезд: Do you have to speak Russian to "order" an incall visitor to a western-style hotel? What about communicating via email? Any chance the girl will resemble the (really great) images on intimcity and dosug.nu?

I have not had language problems in other countries ... intentions are pretty easy to figure out! But Russia seems to offer special challenges.[/QUOTE]


You don't have to speak Russian to invite a girl in a hotel, it's quite enough if you call an english-speaking girl. There are all chances that she will be the same as on the picture, why not? Dosug.nu is mostly oriented on Russian clients, so girls don't have to speak Englisg to work with them, that's why you probably had difficulty with them. If you need to find the address with a cab, just ask sonebody to write it on a piece of paper. And if you go in a girl's apartment, let her tell her address to the cab's driver on mobile phone. All is easy =)))

[QUOTE=Helena Moscow]70USD a month for a universuty graduate - outdated information. Now minimum is 300-500USD, depends on work. Some young people make this money without any education at all, for ex. as consultants in clothes or electronic shops. Web-desighners make 200-250USD for creating a web-site, which you can do after a 10-day course which will cost you 100USD only (oh, I must go for such a course =)) my site is terrible, don't go there), the same is a daily rate for a photographer, but he needs a cam, which is a bit more expensive, and the course is also longer.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for that. I have been chatting with some Russian girls who live in towns 800 klm from Moscow and the $70 a month salary is what they say they earn with a degree but there are two possibilities. One they are lying because they want me to feel sorry for them and send money (which won’t happen) and the other is the fact they live in small provincial towns may be a factor for their low salary.

Non the less, even at $300 to $500 a month in salary in Moscow, can any one tell me how $100 per hour is justified for sex? I would imagine based on the salary that $100 would get me a girl for at least a few days LOL.

The answer to your question inside of your text.

Those girls living 800km from Moscow and on average people in Moscow get paid times more than lets say people in Cheboksary or Saratov.

Be paid $200 in Penza and in Moscow very different.

I hope it will explain your question.

Lover

[QUOTE=Blastoff]Thanks for that. I have been chatting with some Russian girls who live in towns 800 klm from Moscow and the $70 a month salary is what they say they earn with a degree but there are two possibilities. One they are lying because they want me to feel sorry for them and send money (which won’t happen) and the other is the fact they live in small provincial towns may be a factor for their low salary.

Non the less, even at $300 to $500 a month in salary in Moscow, can any one tell me how $100 per hour is justified for sex? I would imagine based on the salary that $100 would get me a girl for at least a few days LOL.[/QUOTE]

I thought you meant Moscow, because this part of forum is about Moscow, and I also spoke only about Moscow. Suppose about 800 kilometers away people can have smaller salaries, or may be you are right, and girls try to make you feel sorry, there is such a trick, too =))). For Moscow 100$ for an hour is absolutely unjust. It has to be more to cover normal daily and business expences. Everybody needs not only eat, but also to dress, travel, enjoy life... you too, be the way =))). Few days with 100$ you can't afford even food and transport in Moscow, nothing to say about rent. The young people who work for 300-500$ a month go on to live with their parents. Working girls can't afford such a luxury, what shall we explain to our mommy and daddy about clients coming home? I'm afraid they will not believe in such an amazing amount of future husbands =))).