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[QUOTE=Terry Terrier]And you are also correct, OTH, that the Thai State can reduce prostitution to 'normal' levels through the [i]positive[/i] action that you and I long ago agreed is the way to go (something that Opebo, rather selfishly IMO, sees as a negative)[/QUOTE]
Are you guys honestly suggesting that offering a woman a 'regular' wage, working 14 hour days in a factory or on a farm, is a positive change? The only people who will benefit from that strategy will be the religious right and the feminazis, who will be able to give themselves a big pat on the back for 'rescuing' hookers from prostitution. Do they care that these women will have to work for two weeks to make what they used to make in an hour? No. Anything is better than 'degrading' yourself as a prostitute.
For once (and it doesn't happen often, let me tell you!) I'm with Opebo. I OWN my breasts, my vagina, my arse and my skills in the bedroom. If I want to rent them out for a few hours, I should have every right to.
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[QUOTE=Redfield10]So, I can't "retire" and then teach in Thailans if I'm over 49?[/QUOTE]
Probably not, unless you have highly desirable skills, a post-grad degree and can get a job teaching university (no age limits at unis): not an easy thing to do especially outside of Bangkok.
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[QUOTE=Rubber Nursey]Are you guys honestly suggesting that offering a woman a 'regular' wage, working 14 hour days in a factory or on a farm, is a positive change? The only people who will benefit from that strategy will be the religious right and the feminazis, who will be able to give themselves a big pat on the back for 'rescuing' hookers from prostitution. Do they care that these women will have to work for two weeks to make what they used to make in an hour? No. Anything is better than 'degrading' yourself as a prostitute.
For once (and it doesn't happen often, let me tell you!) I'm with Opebo. I OWN my breasts, my vagina, my arse and my skills in the bedroom. If I want to rent them out for a few hours, I should have every right to.[/QUOTE]
By this post, it's clear you actually have zero understanding of Thailand. So, pretty well everything you say is irrelevant to this country.
What I am suggesting, is proper job creation, decent hours and wages and skills training. There are actually plans to build an IT industry in Khon Kaen and attempt to turn it in a regional IT hub. It may be wishful thinking. But, if it happens it could actually benefit the region greatly and provide alternatives for the people there.
BTW, there are no 'feminazis', nor is there a 'religious right' here. You must be lost in the west somewhere. There's nothing worse than a preachy hooker from a developed country, who clearly knows fuck all about Asia and the life of hookers here. For every supposed stunner commanding 5,000 baht a pop there are literally hundreds getting 100 baht or less in truck-stop brothels all over the country, not to mention that there are still girls forced into prostitution, chained to beds in the back alleys of Chinatown and Little India in Bangkok and also in Chiang Mai. Depressing, but true. How I know this is because a colleague of mine did a 2 year, in-depth research project on prostitution in Thailand and he's told me that there are women, who are basically indentured slaves earning as little as 75 baht per customer. I was pretty shocked that this is still happening here.
If LOS was like Holland and hookers had national health, and unemployment insurance, then it might actually be a viable career choice. But, given that as a career choice it has an incredibly short life span, no security, huge health risks, not to mention it generally renders the girls useless for doing much else later in life and makes them social outcasts within a relatively conservative culture, and hoping that there might be some positive changes that give the girls real alternatives seems to me to be an enlightened way of thinking.
Anyway, it's probably an incredibly stupid position to take on a web site dedicated to perpetuating prostitution. So, this is the last time I will be so 'preachy' myself on this topic.
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[QUOTE=Rubber Nursey]Are you guys honestly suggesting that offering a woman a 'regular' wage, working 14 hour days in a factory or on a farm, is a positive change? The only people who will benefit from that strategy will be the religious right and the feminazis, who will be able to give themselves a big pat on the back for 'rescuing' hookers from prostitution. Do they care that these women will have to work for two weeks to make what they used to make in an hour? No. Anything is better than 'degrading' yourself as a prostitute.
For once (and it doesn't happen often, let me tell you!) I'm with Opebo. I OWN my breasts, my vagina, my arse and my skills in the bedroom. If I want to rent them out for a few hours, I should have every right to.[/QUOTE]
I believe that clearly the problem is not the prostitution but peoples attitudes to it. Everybody has to work to make money and we all take the most well paid job we get. If I could fuck for big money (the opposite sex of course), I have little doubt that I would.
Is it because most guys cannot market their sexual performance that they must look down on those who can?
It is believed that girls intellegence may actually a hindrence to being good in bed. Therefore many average or lower intellegence girls have their good looks and bedroom skills as their best most marketable assets.
Even highly intellegent women may find that sex pays better or some of them just like sex and getting men off.
I can't help thinking of a german girl i once met who had great looks, a great body, seemed smart, but loved sex with both men and women and so liked to work P4P and was orgasmic and made a lot of money from it. She had a husband as well.
I don't believe that sex work should be considered degrading. Sex is natural, sex is good. It is not evil to sell something good that is marketable purely due to the imbalance in supply and demand. Labelling it evil or illegal is a silly way of jacking up the price.
Many of us men find that paying a hooker for sex is actually cheaper than having a wife or girlfriend and get better sex as well. My ex-wife and ex-girlfriends were mostly very ordinary in bed. The ex GF who was really good in bed was a psycho case that was impossible to live with. We don't all make the greatest husbands either so outsourcing the sex can be a better idea.
The worst side of working P4P, in my view, is the dangers involved and the possibility of the womens enjoyment being spoiled.
The best thing about Thai hookers is that such a large percentage are able to enjoy sex (with the right customer) while earning money at the same time.
I don't understand why, but a much lower percentage of Australian hookers actually have an orgasm or at least enjoy sex while working, but there are some.
The common misconception of the media, that they believe no hooker ever orgasms at work, is incredible. Sheer stupidity. There are obviously always some who just cannot control themselves.
In Europe the percentage is higher but not quite as high as Thailand. Black girls and South American girls may be just about equally as horny as Thai girls in my experience, or perhaps even more so. They probably have better endurance than Thais. Black girls are usually best for marathon sex. Not sure why.
I think P4P girls are great (not all of them). I would be a hypocrit to think otherwise.
Don't know why I would pick up a girlfriend unless she can provide cheaper, better, and more frequent sex and they rarely seem to do that.
I seem to get hooked onto girlfriends for reasons that I cannot quite explain, but it never seems to be for the cheapest and best sex.
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[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]By this post, it's clear you actually have zero understanding of Thailand. So, pretty well everything you say is irrelevant to this country... There's nothing worse than a preachy hooker from a developed country, who clearly knows fuck all about Asia and the life of hookers here.[/QUOTE]
With all due respect, OTH, you are neither a woman nor a wh*re, but that doesn't stop you telling everyone how working girls in Thailand think and feel in every second post.
If you WERE a woman or a wh*re, you would know that this statement of yours - [i]given that as a career choice it has an incredibly short life span, no security, huge health risks, not to mention it generally renders the girls useless for doing much else later in life and makes them social outcasts within a relatively conservative culture[/i] - applies to basically every single hooker in every single country, 'developed' or not. These issues are not specific to Thailand, they're specific to sucking cock for cash.
The world over, Governments and do-gooders are running around trying to create 'real alternatives' to prostitution, without even bothering to ask whether it's something sex workers actually want. I can tell you right now, it isn't. And no, I'm not just speaking as a 'preachy Western hooker'. Go to the Empower website and you'll see Thai sex workers are saying exactly the same thing. (For the record, I have a lot more contact with Thai sex workers than you think - probably more than you do, in fact).
I wasn't asking for a rundown on the Thai sex industry...and excuse me if I don't put much credence in so-called 'prostitution research'. I was asking the poster of that last post - which wasn't you, by the way - if they honestly believed that forcing sex workers out of the sex industry and into jobs with lower pay and/or longer working hours could really be considered a positive change. Positive for who? The authorities, the Government, the abolitionist NGOs, perhaps. But sex workers themselves didn't ask for this. Thai sex workers are demanding labour rights, police protection and the right to choose sex work as a legal and legitimate occupation. And they're opposed to exit and re-training strategies.
Your paternalistic assertions that Thai hookers are somehow more 'unfortunate' than Western hookers, is extremely patronising and bordering on racist. Thai sex workers are masters in their field and they're envied and emulated by wh*res around the world. Give them some credit.
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[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]
BTW, there are no 'feminazis', nor is there a 'religious right' here. [/QUOTE]
Well... there are enough "do gooders from the Western Embassies and NGOs who would love nothering better than to eradicate prostitution as being degrading to women.
[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]For every supposed stunner commanding 5,000 baht a pop there are literally hundreds getting 100 baht or less in truck-stop brothels all over the country, not to mention that there are still girls forced into prostitution, chained to beds in the back alleys of Chinatown and Little India in Bangkok and also in Chiang Mai. Depressing, but true. How I know this is because a colleague of mine did a 2 year, in-depth research project on prostitution in Thailand and he's told me that there are women, who are basically indentured slaves earning as little as 75 baht per customer. I was pretty shocked that this is still happening here.
If LOS was like Holland and hookers had national health, and unemployment insurance, then it might actually be a viable career choice. But, given that as a career choice it has an incredibly short life span, no security, huge health risks, not to mention it generally renders the girls useless for doing much else later in life and makes them social outcasts within a relatively conservative culture, and hoping that there might be some positive changes that give the girls real alternatives seems to me to be an enlightened way of thinking.
[/QUOTE]
OTH is correct here, but what is let out of the discussion is that many of the girls involved in prostitution in Thailand are just plain lazy. Why work in a rice field all day for 100 baht when you can "entertain" a farang and make a months wages in one night.
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[QUOTE=Rubber Nursey]I wasn't asking for a rundown on the Thai sex industry...and excuse me if I don't put much credence in so-called 'prostitution research'. I was asking the poster of that last post - which wasn't you, by the way - if they honestly believed that forcing sex workers out of the sex industry and into jobs with lower pay and/or longer working hours could really be considered a positive change.
...[/QUOTE]Rubber Nursey,
Welcome to Thailand! Read a lot of your reports (in the other forums :) )...
With all due respect :) - in the beginning of this discussion you were not talking about [i]forcing sex workers out of the sex industry[/i], you were questioning "the guys" whether they were suggesting that [i]offering a woman a 'regular' wage, working 14 hour days in a factory[/i] were a positive change [for a p4p girl, as I understood].
Well, offering jobs in factories or farms can't be wrong at all, just to enable these women to even HAVE A CHOICE. Many of these women here in Thailand don't really have one.
As a bar owner I can assure you that at least here in Thailand (but I am quite sure that it is everywhere like this) the number of available p4p girls (in my case women who want to work in a bar) clearly depends on the economic situation of the country and the availibility of jobs in other professions. The better the situation of the economy is the less girls are working in bars.
There are lots of never ending discussions about the North-East of Thailand, an area with a huge population, the region where most of Thailands working girls are coming from, not much industry (= jobs) there but many farms. For many of us expats it seams to be wanted by the Thai elite that this area stays undeveloped and provides human resources for cheap labour and cheap pleasure for the rich Thais. [i]Offering[/i] jobs would for sure not be wrong in that area ...
Your kind of "professional" thinking does not really match with Thai tradition and culture. If a choice were possible many of the Thai p4p girls would work in industry jobs, even 14 hours a day for regular wages, to avoid loosing face within their families and villages. Some would of course remain in business though, most likely those who prefer the faster [and shall I say the easier ?] way of making money.
Giotto
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OTH,
"If LOS was like Holland and hookers had national health, and unemployment insurance, then it might actually be a viable career choice."
Yeah, now you're the Holland specialist.
Perhaps, you understand what you're saying if I use your words:
"By this post, it's clear you actually have zero understanding of Holland. So, pretty well everything you say is irrelevant to this country... There's nothing worse than a preachy expat teacher from an undeveloped country, who clearly knows fuck all about Europe and the life of hookers here."
There.
RN,
Kisses,
Freeler
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[QUOTE=Terry Terrier] And you are also correct, OTH, that the Thai State can reduce prostitution to 'normal' levels through the [i]positive[/i] action that you and I long ago agreed is the way to go[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Rubber Nursey]Are you guys honestly suggesting that offering a woman a 'regular' wage, working 14 hour days in a factory or on a farm, is a positive change? .[/QUOTE]
I was a part of this original discussion and agreed with OTH and TT when we all essentially said at different times that the Thai Hierarchy can reduce prostitution in their country much the same as the Koreans did by offering positive changes or words to that effect. You actually took “positive change” and ridiculed it by asking/implying if that meant working in a factory for 14 hours a day or forcing hookers to work in a factory; no one here had suggested anything close to that. Clearly that is not an example of positive change but offering people in the poorer parts of the country like Issan opportunities to compete for scholarships and acceptance into the top universities, encouraging businesses to invest in those areas so that employment opportunities are available and offering job/skills training in those communities are examples of positive change. Of course they would have to be able to secure employment with comparable market wages or if they can secure business loans should they choose that route to create their own businesses. Succeeding in having Thailand compete as a world economic force with fair trade and reduction in the blatant corruption are other examples. Those actions and other examples of leveling the playing field will help the country and its citizen reduce prostitution because the girls will at least have a viable alternative to prostitution.
A level playing field will help but if any woman still wants to be in the business after the playing field is leveled then it’s her right. However, I suspect that given viable, (not ridiculous ones like laboring in a factory for 14 hours) alternatives to prostitution, there would be a significant hooker reduction in this country. We should be grateful for hookers who choose their profession by choice despite having other viable opportunities and feel some guilt for the ones who make their decision by default because they had none.
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[QUOTE=Run Mann]I was a part of this original discussion and agreed with OTH and TT when we all essentially said at different times that the Thai Hierarchy can reduce prostitution in their country much the same as the Koreans did by offering positive changes or words to that effect. You actually took “positive change” and ridiculed it by asking/implying if that meant working in a factory for 14 hours a day or forcing hookers to work in a factory; no one here had suggested anything close to that. Clearly that is not an example of positive change but offering people in the poorer parts of the country like Issan opportunities to compete for scholarships and acceptance into the top universities, encouraging businesses to invest in those areas so that employment opportunities are available and offering job/skills training in those communities are examples of positive change. Of course they would have to be able to secure employment with comparable market wages or if they can secure business loans should they choose that route to create their own businesses. Succeeding in having Thailand compete as a world economic force with fair trade and reduction in the blatant corruption are other examples. Those actions and other examples of leveling the playing field will help the country and its citizen reduce prostitution because the girls will at least have a viable alternative to prostitution.
A level playing field will help but if any woman still wants to be in the business after the playing field is leveled then it’s her right. However, I suspect that given viable, (not ridiculous ones like laboring in a factory for 14 hours) alternatives to prostitution, there would be a significant hooker reduction in this country. We should be grateful for hookers who choose their profession by choice despite having other viable opportunities and feel some guilt for the ones who make their decision by default because they had none.[/QUOTE]
Well said.
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[QUOTE=Freeler]
Yeah, now you're the Holland specialist.Freeler[/QUOTE]
I never said I was a Holland expert. But, I've been there many times and have family there, so know something about the country. What part of my reference to Holland was incorrect? Everything I said is true.
..."prostitutes/sex workers have access to the social security system, may join unions, have to pay income tax and are treated like any other self-employed tradesperson. Health and social services are readily available..." Wikipedia (not always the best source for info. But, there are plenty of other sites with the same info).
Why don't you along with Opebo stick with promoting dubious 200 baht bangs in the back alleys of Isaan and leave the serious discussion to others?
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[QUOTE=Rubber Nursey]With all due respect, OTH, you are neither a woman nor a wh*re, but that doesn't stop you telling everyone how working girls in Thailand think and feel in every second post.
If you WERE a woman or a wh*re, you would know that this statement of yours - [i]given that as a career choice it has an incredibly short life span, no security, huge health risks, not to mention it generally renders the girls useless for doing much else later in life and makes them social outcasts within a relatively conservative culture[/i] - applies to basically every single hooker in every single country, 'developed' or not. These issues are not specific to Thailand, they're specific to sucking cock for cash.
The world over, Governments and do-gooders are running around trying to create 'real alternatives' to prostitution, without even bothering to ask whether it's something sex workers actually want. I can tell you right now, it isn't. And no, I'm not just speaking as a 'preachy Western hooker'. Go to the Empower website and you'll see Thai sex workers are saying exactly the same thing. (For the record, I have a lot more contact with Thai sex workers than you think - probably more than you do, in fact).
I wasn't asking for a rundown on the Thai sex industry...and excuse me if I don't put much credence in so-called 'prostitution research'. I was asking the poster of that last post - which wasn't you, by the way - if they honestly believed that forcing sex workers out of the sex industry and into jobs with lower pay and/or longer working hours could really be considered a positive change. Positive for who? The authorities, the Government, the abolitionist NGOs, perhaps. But sex workers themselves didn't ask for this. Thai sex workers are demanding labour rights, police protection and the right to choose sex work as a legal and legitimate occupation. And they're opposed to exit and re-training strategies.
Your paternalistic assertions that Thai hookers are somehow more 'unfortunate' than Western hookers, is extremely patronising and bordering on racist. Thai sex workers are masters in their field and they're envied and emulated by wh*res around the world. Give them some credit.[/QUOTE]
Well at least one 'feminazi' has raised her ugly head.
BTW, Empower represents such a small percentage of hookers in Thailand that's it's importance and impact is neglible to non-existent.
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Rubber Nursey,
Always good to have your input in the broader-scoping discussions.
But I think you are a little late to this one. Read back a bit to get the flavour. As Run Mann pointed out in his eminently sensible post, we are discussing [i]attractive[/i] alternatives for Thai prostitutes, not ones that are in any way coerced. In such an ideal scenario, those who would like to leave the profession but couldn't previously afford to could now do so.
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[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]...if the state wants to do something positive (job creation, increased salaries) to eradicate prostitution, it is THEIR right.[/QUOTE]
This is classic statist Marxist Socialist thinking, OTH. Frankly, I don’t believe you believe it. It’s rubbish. First of all, why do you consider the eradication of prostitution a ‘positive?’
Free markets are responsible for all true economic prosperity, and prostitution has thrived for millennia under all kinds of governments, and economic conditions. No government can eradicate prostitution by creating jobs or increasing salaries, (assuming that a government can actually create ANYTHING in the first place). If a government wants to eradicate prostitution, it will use a gun, just like it does to eradicate drugs. And it will fail just like the war on drugs has failed.
Economic prosperity does not preclude prostitution either, but only makes it more expensive relatively speaking. How do you reconcile your position, for example, with prostitution in Japan where the standard of living is highest in the world? There are all kinds of great paying jobs with increased salaries in Japan. Why is prostitution going strong now in China where the communist government meddles in everything?
Supply and demand! Where men demand sex, there will be women to supply it – for a price which is dictated by the level of that demand. It’s the first law of economics.
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[QUOTE=Daddy07]First of all, why do you consider the eradication of prostitution a ‘positive?’ ...
...Supply and demand! Where men demand sex, there will be women to supply it – for a price which is dictated by the level of that demand. It’s the first law of economics.[/QUOTE]
Actually 'eradicate' was not the right word - too extreme and not possible. It's not called the 'oldest profession' for nothing. Also, personally, I'm not against prostitution and I didn't mean to come across as some kind of bible-thumping do-gooder who wants to save the girls. I simply suggest that creating an environment where good alternatives and choices are available is a "positive". Although it wouldn't be acceptable in Thai culture, prostitution being treated as a profession, and not being so exploitive would better. When you have denial and a desire to maintain the status quo, as is the case in Thailand, you have a recipe for exploitation, which while it may not happen so much in the Farang-oriented sex industry is sadly, all too common on the Thai side of things. Of course, it's all hypothetical. There's no way in hell that the Thais will ever do anything to change things radically enough to provide the opportunities to which I refer. This country thrives on exploitation and suppression of the masses. That's not about to change anytime soon.
Run Mann's take on this discussion is the most reasoned, IMO.
