Pattaya Reports

[QUOTE=Bonzo1]This pointless debate will rage on on ISG forever. ... Frankly the more times I hear people complaining and/or castigating, ignorantly, about people "spoiling the market", the more I actually want to spend more. If it gets me better girls, or even if I just feel like it, then it's not only my prerogative, it's actually in my best interest.

I worked hard and I have every right to spend my money however I feel like, as do you.

[/QUOTE]

Excellent post! I agree 100%.

The following three sentences sum up all the endlessly re-occurring posts and threads about proper levels of payment for the ladies' services:

Pay the girls whatever amount they will accept for their services and with which you feel comfortable. Don't pay more than you can afford, but don't worry about what anyone else pays. If you're happy and the girl is happy, then it's right.

The main reason generous punters have come in for criticism is supposedly because they "drive up prices" and "ruin the market" for everyone else. A slightly more sophisticated – but equally erroneous – take on the issue maintains that too much money "spoils" the girls.

Nonsense, bunkum and bosh. That's junk economics and voodoo psychology. No market functions in that fashion. Prices for sexual services, like prices for all goods and services, move with supply and demand. To believe P4P in Pattaya is somehow an exception to general economic laws is as ridiculous as believing you'll fall off the edge of the world if you sail too far out in the Gulf of Pattaya or that Beach Road has an anti-gravity zone .

But make no mistake. I intend no criticism of those who do Pattaya on a tight budget, whether it's by choice or necessity. I have all respect for punters who set "rules" or "limits" on how much they'll pay the girls. There's nothing wrong with trying to obtain sexual services for as little money as possible. But this is a matter of personal finances – the punters who spend less on providers' services will have more money to spend on other things. That's the extent of it. It has zero, zilch, nada to do with keeping prices down on a broad scale.

There's no ISO standard or union wage scale in P4P. There's no going price or market price. There's no objective standard at all. Everything is subjective. From the girl's side as well as the punter's side, each encounter is unique and carries its own price tag.

And the girls don't need a farang to teach them that they want as much money as possible for their services - they know that already.

Evil

Thanks for your replies - I might spend an evening in Jomtien. I'm considering staying at the Sabai Lodge - they have quoted me 1,250 for a Deluxe Pool View room which looks pretty nice. Any thoughts about the place?

[QUOTE=ThaiLearner]Jomtien has one go go but it does have quite a few bars it is worth a visit for one night just to see what it is like everyone has different tastes.

I hear Secrets has some young girls! haven't been in there for a couple of years.

I prefer to stay in Pattaya[/QUOTE]

This was exactly my point, being a long-time visitor here, I know what the prices are on the various venues, so even though I will bargain hard I will still pay accordingly.

Also I have a hobby as sugar daddy supporting 18-23 year old students, granted that these won't go bt.500. But that's my choice, I can afford it and trust me these girls know their market rates too, even the thai's have to pay it!

[QUOTE=Bonzo1]This pointless debate will rage on on ISG forever. You know what, I wasn't making a comment on what you should or shouldn't pay, although I did try to provide some info about what I believe are the market rates these days. Frankly the more times I hear people complaining and/or castigating, ignorantly, about people "spoiling the market", the more I actually want to spend more. If it gets me better girls, or even if I just feel like it, then it's not only my prerogative, it's actually in my best interest.

I worked hard and I have every right to spend my money however I feel like, as do you.

So there.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Kim Wheather]Definetely I respect older people. Definetely I respect anybody's choice to value quality over quantity. Definetely I respect how people use their hard-earned money.[/QUOTE]

So the moral of this (price war) story is, "stay in your lane."

Too often on this board some posters try to enforce their beliefs of what others should pay the ladies and launch into attack mode when someone pays more than their subjective market rate. For whatever reason, the illogic claim that those who pay more will increase the market only applies to girls and not hotels, meals, drinks, CDs/DVDs or any other goods/services. Pattaya is a beautifully-ugly place that we can all enjoy in our own way because we all have different resources and POVs.

I would call my friend foolish at all, he's after interested in quality only and he is prepared to pay for that. To hang around in cheap beer bars for bt.500 girls is definitely not his cup of tea, and nor is it mine.

I for one don't think the market is ruined at all, the problem like anywhere else in the world is that the quality is dropping rapidly, especially in Pattaya. So I rather pay bt.5000 for a 18-20yr old student to quality than bt.500-1000 for those desperate beach and beer bar girls, but hey that is my choice each for their own.

[QUOTE=Opebo]Alas, our actions are always social and never truly 'our business only'. True, the market will inevitably be 'ruined' regardless of any individual's behavior, but the sad fact is that your foolish friend doesn't receive anything more for his 5-10K than another receives for 1/10th that. Accept for this: the girls think he is a fool.

I pay the correct price partly because its all I can afford, but also because, quite frankly, I have some self-respect and don't want to appear idiotic.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Evil Penivel] ... But make no mistake. I intend no criticism of those who do Pattaya on a tight budget, whether it's by choice or necessity. I have all respect for punters who set "rules" or "limits" on how much they'll pay the girls. There's nothing wrong with trying to obtain sexual services for as little money as possible. But this is a matter of personal finances – the punters who spend less on providers' services will have more money to spend on other things. That's the extent of it. It has zero, zilch, nada to do with keeping prices down on a broad scale ... Evil[/QUOTE]
Bravo! No one says it better than Evil. Nice to see you back.

Oh, yeah ... I can only add to this that a punter will generally get no more respect or any better service by paying more money. It's chemistry, not cash which determines a quality session.

[QUOTE=Belmont]Depends on your age, physical appearance.
I have 70yr old friend pays 3000LT all the time. I never paid more then 2000. And that was twice for stunners who wouldn't budge. I almost always pay 1500 LT. Never a complaint. I'm 51 for the record. I've gotten many girls to come down from 3000 to 1500. Just tell them that's too much, can't do it, don't have it. Many come down easily, if they like you. If they don't they probrably don't like you! I've walked away from many who think they are hot shit(Happy, super b and Babygirls come to mind).
500 Beach road ST, 1000 Disco LT, 1000 beerbar LT, 1500 gogo LT. the standard rates.
There are always fat, older, ugly guys who must pay more.
I'll be there soon![/QUOTE]

As a general rule, for a Thai girl money is priority #1 and she will try to get as much as she can from you. But ... they are also (most of them) young girls who like men and who are looking for someone of being their type. So if they like you then money is no longer that important and they will agree to whatever you propose.
Occasionally I had girls with whom I clicked ... then you don't even have to talk about money and at the end of the LT time you just put some money in their purse and they don't even count it ...

[QUOTE=Kim Wheather]Dear Bonzo1,
All right, call me "Cheap Charlie" if you want, but generally I paid 500 Baht for ST and 1000 for LT in Pattaya. (Even I picked women from a disco, I paid quoted amount of money. And almost all women said "kop kun ka" to me when I paid quoted amount of money).
Please think also with your head between your shoulders, not only with your dickhead.[/QUOTE]
I'm like you, 500 ST, 1000 LT (even managed to get a 700 LT out of the disco. hell a wingman got one out of the disco who told him she did not want any money). The same negotiation that gets me called Cheap Charlie in BKK gets me a sweet "khawp khun khaaaaa" in Pattaya.

[QUOTE=Evil Penivel]From the girl's side as well as the punter's side, each encounter is unique and carries its own price tag.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you generally, but this is less so in Thailand than other places. I find that once I know an area, I practically never have to ask the price. I know a samlor ride across town costs 40, or a motocy 10, or coffee 12, or khao man gai 20, etc. I just hand over the amount.

I know some people who trade clothes in Pratunam. No matter which vendor they go to, they'll get the same price. No one tries to highball or lowball you.

Unless you're a tourist mark, dealing with predators like the standing taxis outside Patpong, or all the public transport in Phuket, or the gem scam shops, or the massage places where touts take you.

So with regards to this topic I'd wouldn't say every encounter is unique, as far as price is concerned -- I'd say that either you know the price (read here, or bargain in some different places until you get a feel), or you run into a chancer and get taken for a ride.

Whether you give presents or tips or whatever, yes, that depends on the uniqueness of the encounter.

[QUOTE=Evil Penivel]Excellent post! I agree 100%.

The following three sentences sum up all the endlessly re-occurring posts and threads about proper levels of payment for the ladies' services:

Pay the girls whatever amount they will accept for their services and with which you feel comfortable. Don't pay more than you can afford, but don't worry about what anyone else pays. If you're happy and the girl is happy, then it's right.

The main reason generous punters have come in for criticism is supposedly because they "drive up prices" and "ruin the market" for everyone else. A slightly more sophisticated – but equally erroneous – take on the issue maintains that too much money "spoils" the girls.

Nonsense, bunkum and bosh. That's junk economics and voodoo psychology. No market functions in that fashion. Prices for sexual services, like prices for all goods and services, move with supply and demand. To believe P4P in Pattaya is somehow an exception to general economic laws is as ridiculous as believing you'll fall off the edge of the world if you sail too far out in the Gulf of Pattaya or that Beach Road has an anti-gravity zone .

But make no mistake. I intend no criticism of those who do Pattaya on a tight budget, whether it's by choice or necessity. I have all respect for punters who set "rules" or "limits" on how much they'll pay the girls. There's nothing wrong with trying to obtain sexual services for as little money as possible. But this is a matter of personal finances – the punters who spend less on providers' services will have more money to spend on other things. That's the extent of it. It has zero, zilch, nada to do with keeping prices down on a broad scale.

There's no ISO standard or union wage scale in P4P. There's no going price or market price. There's no objective standard at all. Everything is subjective. From the girl's side as well as the punter's side, each encounter is unique and carries its own price tag.

And the girls don't need a farang to teach them that they want as much money as possible for their services - they know that already.

Evil[/QUOTE]

Some good points, but i'm going to play the devil's advocate...i met a gal in Pattaya awhile back, beer bar girl, but had more of a gogo look to her, extremely good looking. Hit it off with her, great chemistry, we spent several wonderful nights together, i gave her 1000 baht for each full night. About 4 months later, i was in Pattaya again, ran into her, she remembered me and gave me the "oh so happy to see you tilac i missed you" swoon...took her out of the bar...back in my room, i found her lovemaking to be far more businesslike than before, and after we had finished, she told me she had to leave to see her friends (who were going to the disco to find guys). We hadn't discussed it, but if it had been at all like before, it would have been LT multiple days, etc...no biggie, i gave her 500 baht as it was now ST, and she basically threw a shit fit, saying that every guy was now paying her 1000ST/1500LT...i reminded her what i'd paid before, and she stormed out...obviously the gal had become jaded AND had gotten very used to punters paying her the higher prices..so in this case, that had driven up the prices...not to mention that it was low season, so market forces were not bearing much of anything.....
Another case in point, in Bangkok, even in low season with everyone complaining about the loss of tourists, no matter how hard one bargains on Sukhumvit, no matter how well one speaks Thai, the prices of goods on the street will ALWAYS be higher than the same goods bought in Ramkamhaeng or Bo Bae, or non tourist areas...the exact same goods...at the lowest price in Sukhumvit...still higher than anywhere else....this has absolutely nothing to do with supply and demand, it has to do with the fact that the locals know what the tourists will pay and thus they will charge them accordingly. Money changes people in a big way..i am a photographer, 5-10 years ago, i charged far less prices for my work than i do now, mainly because i was struggling to make it in the field and was also thrilled just to be able to sell. These days, i wont budge below certain prices, even if people are not buying, because a standard has been set that i am used to......
If i can offer any advice to those who are choosing to drop more money on the girls, do so if they make you really happy, but at least let them know you know the prices ("honey, i normally pay 1000 baht, but you are so damn great i'm going to give you 2000"), so that it doesn't go to their heads and they perhaps keep a good attitude and know what good service means.

[QUOTE=Daddy07]Bravo! No one says it better than Evil. Nice to see you back.

Oh, yeah ... I can only add to this that a punter will generally get no more respect or any better service by paying more money. It's chemistry, not cash which determines a quality session.[/QUOTE]

That was indeed an excellent, comprehensive post - one of the best on the subject that I've read on ISG. One would think that such rationality would be enough to educate those who were, until reading it, mistaken (/ignorant) about how these markets work, but it won't. As I said before, this pointless debate will rage on forever here.

A few case in points:

1. Kim W. complains about this, and yet he also says he has no problem getting his 500 baht pussy. The market has not been ruined ('despite' many years of thousands of people paying many times higher than this). Q.E.D.

2. Kim's initial complaint stemmed from my comment, "I have plenty of money to burn", which was a stupid and arrogant-sounding comment (apologies), but I was really just replying to a question of whether or not I was paying enough. However, as stated in my posts, I was pretty much paying the normal rates. Point is that this is a ideological issue for people who don't WANT to understand how the market works ("don't confuse me with the facts"), and WANT to cling to a false notion that the market is somehow being ruined by others (the human psyche...we often tend to love blaming "them"), and therefore no amount of reason is going to change their views.

3. I've given numerous examples of different price points within the markets. We all know this is true, and it's nothing unique to this kind of market.

4. The idea that anyone thinks it's a self-respect issue (paying the "right" prices and thereby avoiding the girls thinking they are idiots, or whatever) is really funny to me. I think healthy self-respect is maintained in entirely different ways than resting it on what P4P girls think about my knowledge of and adherence to optimal pricing in their market is (ie I could care less what they think about what I pay, other than that I admit a propensity for avoiding being cheap...not that I don't bargain). But anyway, to each his own.

Hey, whatever. Being ignorant doesn't make one a bad person; sometimes naivete is indeed actually bliss! I have tons of friends who are ignorant about tons of things...as am I about many things.

My point really is that this whole topic is pretty useless here. Although it is fun sometimes, especially when realizing there are plenty of others who understand the realities here as well. Evil's post was simply brilliant!

Anyway, I had intended all my posts prior to this debate to be informative, and hope they were.

So, can we get back to the topic at hand now?

-B-

One final thing. As I pointed out before, if the Nick Leason-like belief that one can literally drive an entire market were actually true, then it would be in the GREAT INTEREST of people with money to overpay -- we'd simply be getting rid of a lot of the competition and thereby get better quality!

But obviously (or butt-obviously ;)), that's not how this works....since even if that were true the market would then quickly become over-supplied and thus prices would fall.

What may actually have not be contemplated before, and I think is interesting, is that overpaying actually does every monger a FAVOR in some ways - in that by doing so it creates the aura of possibility for the girls, which attracts workers. Imagine what Pattaya (or Thailand, or elsewhere) would be like if there were no hope that the girls could occasionally "hit the jackpot". As an analogy, Vegas works pretty much the same way (and for that matter, there's tons of cheap stuff in Vegas too - same supply and demand principles).

So if all the rational, logical points about economics 101 aren't compelling enough, perhaps this simple point will help compel other mongers to THANK those who "overpay" rather than unjustly castigate them :)

Ok, I think I've said enough. Happy mongering.

-B-

[QUOTE=Evil Penivel]That's junk economics and voodoo psychology.[/QUOTE]The way I like to demonstrate this is to ask: if grossly overpaying a girl contributes to pushing prices up, what happens when you manage to score a freebie? By the same logic, surely that must push prices down? If not, then why not?

But yes, enough of this. Here's one I used to habitually overpay . . . worth every baht.

Gentleman,

I'm not pushing anyone oneway or another but I have been reading the comments and everyone that has participated and contributed information pro or con on this subject and many of the opinions confuses me. Where should I start?

A. Economy, many of us seem to have a sense of what this is in the western
world but when it comes to Thailand many posters have express confusion
when it comes to Thailand. Like when Tourist is down they raise the prices
to make up for loss customers, for Freelancers, Barfines, Hotels, Entry
Fee's to clubs, even raise the price of your beer! How does such actions
like these related to supply and demand? Isn't it a contridiction?
B. There are many posters on this board and I would assume that each have
a different level of income. But I doubt many or any are millionaire or
billionaire and everyone feels they work hard for their money and sure
everyone has the right to spend it or not spend it as they please. But
why is it always so inconsistent when it comes to pussy and one doesn't
see their own inconsistence remarks regarding this body part. Why doesn't
that hard working individual spend or overpay for quality in their own
country? Why is it they don't spend extra for a car or house? But yet when
it comes to P4P in Thailand where the exchange rate favors them all of a
sudden they are rich. Money is no object!
C. When it comes to age, I think majority of us are pretty much over the hill
being fueled by the blue pill yet young and old there is a discussion or how
much one should pay? So how does being older allows one to better afford
quality and value for your money if we are having this discussion since
we old fuckers can't agree on anything?
D. I wouldn't call anyone stupid or agnorant! But if someone is going down
Beach Rd. and overpaying for a freelancer when normally she is
asking 500/1000 baht no matter how bad or good she looks ( quality )
and someone overpays one evening and when she goes back to the Beach
the next hour until 24 hours later she hasn't found another guy that would
overpay I come along and get her for 500 baht the next day. What would
you think of the guy who might have overpaid by 1500 baht if you found
out you got the same pussy for 500 baht?

I think for whatever reasons people come to Thailand I say pay what you want and when you want it and enjoy yourselves. But if you are here throwing your money like you are a milionaire when your're not and trying to justify why you can overpay on this board I again say knock yourself out! I can only think that you might be fooling yourself and not others. But once you go home and go back to work reality is going to set in that we are all the same! We will spend more for the little head and not much else!

There are rules, and there aren't any Freebies, that's all in your ego and mind!

LBM

Piper1,

You have done a real good job so far in getting the best bang for your buck. Then you spend all that time taking the songthaw from Jometien to Beach Rd. and back. Getting cheap short time room for ST, when all you had to do was walk to Soi 6, Yellow house and see Chompu (AKA Tammy) for a one hour oil massage and gotten 2 shots for 1000 baht. The time you save you could have gotten 2 hours massage and a shower and walk back along the beach to your hotel and act like nothing ever happend!

Keep your curtains closed Daddy07 might be watching your room with his telescope!

Opebo, The girls on Beach Rd. knows when the raid is coming... in the early mornings instead of walking around Beach Rd. they are standing or sitting opposite the Beach, in front of shops that are closed. During the raid many walk to The Avenue ( Shopping Center on 2nd Rd. ) They are walking back and forth outside BigMac's. Some are standing or sitting outside Starbucks, Pattaya Walk Plaza!

LBM