Stupid Shit in Kyiv

[QUOTE=Beijing4987;2934956]That's right. Putin only occasionally bombs a church, hospital or school full of white orthodox Christians or threatens to use nuclear weapons.[/QUOTE]Gaza is not linked to Ukraine other than that monstrous and bloodthirsty Palestinian raid on Oct 7 (along with Israel's retaliation that followed) became a god's gift to Putin by taking some attention away from his own full-blown war.

In any case, this is a wrong forum to discuss Gaza or other areas of the world. You can always discuss those issues in the Israel or other related forums.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2935185]Gaza is not linked to Ukraine other than that monstrous and bloodthirsty Palestinian raid on Oct 7 (along with Israel's retaliation that followed) became a god's gift to Putin by taking some attention away from his own full-blown war.

In any case, this is a wrong forum to discuss Gaza or other areas of the world. You can always discuss those issues in the Israel or other related forums.[/QUOTE]This was supposed to be a reply to Tiny, not Beijing. Would appreciate some assistance from the mods.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2935185]Gaza is not linked to Ukraine other than that monstrous and bloodthirsty Palestinian raid on Oct 7 (along with Israel's retaliation that followed) became a god's gift to Putin by taking some attention away from his own full-blown war.

In any case, this is a wrong forum to discuss Gaza or other areas of the world. You can always discuss those issues in the Israel or other related forums.[/QUOTE]Come on Xpartan, don't do a Paulie and try to shut down the conversation because you disagree with me. You're better than that.

The neoconservatives have one set of rules for Vladimir Putin and another for Benjamin Netanyahu, George W. Bush, Tony Blair, Barrack Obama, and Donald Trump. They're collectively responsible for many more deaths than Putin.

My point is that the ratio of deaths of civilians to combatants in Ukraine is not out of line with other conflicts where western countries are involved. The ratio in the current conflict in Israel and Gaza may be around 2.4 civilians deaths to one combatant death. An estimate for the Iraq war was 3.4:1, although it would be much higher if you looked at excess deaths instead of casualties directly inflicted by the military and Iraqi resistance. Estimates for Vietnam range from 1:3 to 2:1. In any event, the civilian / combatant death ratio in Ukraine is less than any of those conflicts. It may be around 1:5 or 1:10. I don't believe Russia is trying to kill civilians. Yeah, shit will happen, like My Lai. But they're not engaged in anything like Dresden or Hiroshima.

[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio[/URL]

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2935222]This was supposed to be a reply to Tiny, not Beijing. Would appreciate some assistance from the mods.[/QUOTE]

I presume you mean you'd like the moderators to edit your post, not to censor mine?

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2935181]Every individual in my links is a Putin's OFFICIAL mouthpiece. Just because he doesn't OFFICIALLY have a Ministry of Propaganda like his idol Adolf, doesn't mean that his propagandists are not Russian OFFICIALS. They all are.

The final link I provided is for Putin's own words. Even his so-called "press-secretary" Peskov admitted he said that. Denying something that obvious and verifiable is just silly.

Finally, trying to cover your lack of reasoning skills with rudeness and personal insults never works. It only makes you look bad. If I were your supervisor, I'd fire you on the spot.[/QUOTE]The link you posted alleges Putin said 'Kiev in 2 weeks' if he wanted to way back in 2014, not in 2022. And there is no evidence he did even say that, it has never been proved. Plus, if Putin did want to take Kiev back in 2014, he could have done it easily in 2 weeks because AFU were much, much weaker back in 2014. It was after 2014 that NATO started arming and training AFU. Your dumbass wouldn't know about that. So don't post lies here because they will quickly be debunked by me.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2935183]30,000? Did you count Mariupol deaths in your estimate? Just add tens of thousands more..[/QUOTE]Yes.

Here's a UN estimate for all of Ukraine, 10,582 civilian deaths, with a caveat that real numbers could be higher:

[URL]https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293492/ukraine-war-casualties/[/URL]

Estimates citied in Wikipedia for total civilian deaths, which include Mariupol:

1. 11,000+ killed (confirmed) 24 Feb 2022 to 31 Dec 2023.

11,000 missing 24 Feb 2022 to 30 Nov 2023.

2. 11,284 killed 24 February 2022 to 30 June 2024.

[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War[/URL]

You appear to be correct, that civilian deaths in Mariupol may dwarf those in other places. The United Nations estimate was 1,348 civilians, but "the true death toll was likely thousands higher. " A Human Rights Watch study indicated there were at least 8,034 excess deaths in Mariupol. And yes, there are estimates thrown out by Ukrainian television, the Mariupol mayor and others that deaths may have been in the range of 20,000 to 27,000. One outlier which I seriously doubt is 87,000.

[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Mariupol[/URL]

I don't see how you could realistically get to 45,000 for all of Ukraine, which although tragic, is small compared to combatant deaths. And suspect the real number is less than 30,000.

Painting Putin as Hitler and Russians as bloodthirsty savages is not realistic. It is a way to prolong the war, which is the goal of the neoconservatives. Again, I don't mean you, but rather the military and political elite.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2935183]
No, not the "death". Call it what it was: cold-blooded KILLINGS of Ukrainian civilians, often whole families. They were NOT combatants. Let's be more precise in our definitions, shell we?[/QUOTE]

You're saying the subject of the story was not a civilian combatant? But yes, it's fine to describe his death as a killing. It's fine to say George W. Bush and his successors, including Barrack Obama, were cold blooded killers too.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935331]Come on Xpartan, don't do a Paulie and try to shut down the conversation because you disagree with me. You're better than that. [/QUOTE]Maybe you're better than to cowardly attack someone that left the conversation many months ago, but I don't know. I'm inside riding out a tropical storm and happened to check in here today.

All I've said is that you might do well to spend less time arguing for Putin over the internet. That especially applies if you are on in years where remaining time is more precious. I've also made the point that you are late to the party. Your whataboutisms regarding past US actions were answered ad nauseam starting two years ago by myself and others. I'm not doing it over again for a Johnny come lately that migrated over from the opinions forum. However for the record, I and the ICC disagree with your belief that Russia hasn't been targeting civilians. And since you like Wikipedia so much, here's a couple of links for the Cliff Note's versions. Scroll to the bottom for source citations.

[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_civilians_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine[/URL]

[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court_arrest_warrants_for_Russian_figures[/URL]

That was easy. Didn't take me ten minutes. Wink.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935390]Painting Putin as Hitler and Russians as bloodthirsty savages is not realistic. It is a way to prolong the war, which is the goal of the neoconservatives. Again, I don't mean you, but rather the military and political elite. You're saying the subject of the story was not a civilian combatant? But yes, it's fine to describe his death as a killing. It's fine to say George W. Bush and his successors, including Barrack Obama, were cold blooded killers too.[/QUOTE]Comparing someone like Putin, a cold blooded murderer who murders all his opposition and sometimes slowly, jails journalists, who starts a war with his neighbor that he claims has no right to exist based on a fanciful spin on history, who deports and indoctrinates their children, kills off their civilian populations while hiding the bodies, etc. To post 9/11 US presidents is absurd. And of course it all comes seasoned with the well worn cookie cutter buzz words and "deep state" conspiracy theories, that even those with barely a high school education can parrot online. You're actually a lightweight when it comes to making this brand of arguments. If one wants to just sharpen their iron they could find better.

[URL]https://effectiviology.com/false-equivalence/[/URL]

Nowadays I treat it like if I was seated on a bar stool listening to this from the guy sitting next to me. I go find a different seat. Though I and others have hammered it out thoroughly here in the past. Any here interesting can check the post history of this thread going back to the Spring of 2022.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935331]Come on Xpartan, don't do a Paulie and try to shut down the conversation because you disagree with me. You're better than that.

The neoconservatives have one set of rules for Vladimir Putin and another for Benjamin Netanyahu, George W. Bush, Tony Blair, Barrack Obama, and Donald Trump. They're collectively responsible for many more deaths than Putin. [/QUOTE]How am I trying to shut down the conversation? By pointing out that this is a forum dedicated to Ukraine rather than the last 24 years of the US and Middle East warring history?

If you really -- and I mean, really -- do not understand the difference between Israel's war on Hamas and savage Putin's war against Ukraine, start another thread in the Israel forum and I'll meet you there. Otherwise, it feels like a false analogy fallacy, which, as you probably know, is a favorite Russian propaganda trick designed to dilute a topic by claiming false equivalence between events that have nothing to do with each other except for one word: WAR.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935390]I don't believe Russia is trying to kill civilians. Yeah, shit will happen, like My Lai. [/QUOTE]Here you go: You don't believe! That certainly trumps facts and reason. Why didn't you say so before?

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935390]Yes.

Here's a UN estimate for all of Ukraine, 10,582 civilian deaths, with a caveat that real numbers could be higher:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293492/ukraine-war-casualties/

Estimates citied in Wikipedia for total civilian deaths, which include Mariupol:

1. 11,000+ killed (confirmed) 24 Feb 2022 to 31 Dec 2023.

11,000 missing 24 Feb 2022 to 30 Nov 2023.

2. 11,284 killed 24 February 2022 to 30 June 2024.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War

You appear to be correct, that civilian deaths in Mariupol may dwarf those in other places. The United Nations estimate was 1,348 civilians, but "the true death toll was likely thousands higher. " A Human Rights Watch study indicated there were at least 8,034 excess deaths in Mariupol. And yes, there are estimates thrown out by Ukrainian television, the Mariupol mayor and others that deaths may have been in the range of 20,000 to 27,000. One outlier which I seriously doubt is 87,000. [/QUOTE]Doubt whatever you want. Just do me a little favor. Turn off your Russophilia for 5 fucking minutes and read this:

[URL]https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-erasing-mariupol-499dceae43ed77f2ebfe750ea99b9ad9[/URL]

And if you can spend a little more time, watch 20 Days in Mariupol:

[URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvAyykRvPBo[/URL]

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935390]Painting Putin as Hitler and Russians as bloodthirsty savages is not realistic. It is a way to prolong the war, which is the goal of the neoconservatives. Again, I don't mean you, but rather the military and political elite.[/QUOTE]You're right somewhat. Putin is not Hitler. Hitler wasn't a coward. Hitler wasn't a thief. His Operation Barbarossa was far better thought out than Putin's "strategy" to throw lots of shit in all directions to see what sticks.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935390]You're saying the subject of the story was not a civilian combatant? But yes, it's fine to describe his death as a killing. It's fine to say George W. Bush and his successors, including Barrack Obama, were cold blooded killers too.[/QUOTE]I have no idea what you're talking about. Hundreds of civilians were murdered in Bucha alone. Men, women, children. Sometimes whole families. Did you even read the article beyond the first 3 paragraphs?

Although, I keep forgetting that you don't believe anyway.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2935345]The link you posted alleges Putin said 'Kiev in 2 weeks' if he wanted to way back in 2014, not in 2022. And there is no evidence he did even say that, it has never been proved. Plus, if Putin did want to take Kiev back in 2014, he could have done it easily in 2 weeks because AFU were much, much weaker back in 2014. It was after 2014 that NATO started arming and training AFU. Your dumbass wouldn't know about that. So don't post lies here because they will quickly be debunked by me.[/QUOTE]In my previous post I stated that you were a lousy PROPACONDOM (as your fellow Russians call you guys) because all you do is lie, then double and triple down on your lies; and these are not well-constructed, solid, plausible lies. Your lies are so foolish and ridiculous that a 10-second Google search can reveal them. That's lazy and unprofessional. I thought, you should certainly must do better. Don't your bosses want people to believe them?

I was wrong. Please accept my apologies.

You're not at fault here. You just keep up with Russia's venerable traditions. The thing is, Russia lies every time it gets caught in the act. Russia just doesn't care. When you downed MH17, when you doped your athletes, when you poisoned Navalny, when you poisoned the Scripals in Salisbury and got caught every single time -- what did you guys do? That's right, you kept lying.

Lying no matter what.

I thought it was silly on your part to deny that Putin said if he'd wanted to, he could've taken Kyiv in two weeks.

I mean this quote was all over the world, in all major media, and what do you know -- no protests, no demands for retractions!

Putin's talking lapdog Peskov confirmed that yes, the boss did say that.

Putin himself never claimed he hadn't.

And only you keep holding the last line of defense.

Bravo!

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2935447] when you poisoned Navalny[/QUOTE]Like I said previously, it is so easy to own your dumbass that believes all the lies fed to you by the collective west.

Navalny died of natural causes. Owned, again. Stop embarrassing yourself.

[URL]https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/navalnys-team-says-death-certificate-says-he-died-natural-causes-2024-02-22/[/URL]

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2935447]In my previous post I stated that you were a lousy PROPACONDOM...You're not at fault here...[/QUOTE]Yeah, don't be too hard on the guy -- it's his job. It is a lousy, meaningless, stupid job, but someone is paying him to do it. How dispiriting it must be to have to crank out this futile bullshit; however, it is his sole source of revenue. The real question is why does this forum allow this kind of spam? What a waste of bandwidth.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2935760]Yeah, don't be too hard on the guy -- it's his job. It is a lousy, meaningless, stupid job, but someone is paying him to do it. How dispiriting it must be to have to crank out this futile bullshit; however, it is his sole source of revenue. The real question is why does this forum allow this kind of spam? What a waste of bandwidth.[/QUOTE]You can't debate me. Walk on home, boy.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2935760]Yeah, don't be too hard on the guy -- it's his job. It is a lousy, meaningless, stupid job, but someone is paying him to do it. How dispiriting it must be to have to crank out this futile bullshit; however, it is his sole source of revenue. The real question is why does this forum allow this kind of spam? What a waste of bandwidth.[/QUOTE]Agreed. When he just started out, his fallacies were long-winded, passionate, heated, fiery even. Today he's all snaps, barks and snarls. The pay can't be good.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2935820]You can't debate me. Walk on home, boy.[/QUOTE]"Debate"? It's hardly possible or meaningful in this forum. However, I do have an interest in you as a person. Primarily, where do you live? What city? What are your other sources of revenue? What are your future plans?

As I've written previously, Russia is notorious for the skill and efficacy of their propaganda. Russia's economy is miniscule and yet they punch far above their class. Look at some recent political disasters in the West (e.g., US election of 2016, Brexit, the disinformation surrounding Covid vaccines, the extended hold of US arms to Ukraine) which derive from masterful Russian propaganda. I really admire the effort and the skill. You (meaning Russians) have achieved dramatic results with relatively little effort and resources. California alone has an economy twice as large as Russia's. Three US states (California, Texas and NY) individually have economies larger than Russia's. Imagine if New York had the same kind of organized and skilled propaganda as Russia -- absurd, right?

Why do I ask about your future plans? Ernest Hemingway wrote in "The Sun Also Rises", 'How did you go bankrupt?' "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." Nations fail in the same way. Everything looks solid, then poof! I wonder if you're made any plans against the collapse of the Russian Federation?

As a matter of general interest, how are you being instructed to deal with the Ukrainian incursion in Kursk Oblast?

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2935851]"Debate"? It's hardly possible or meaningful in this forum. However, I do have an interest in you as a person. Primarily, where do you live? What city? What are your other sources of revenue? What are your future plans?

As I've written previously, Russia is notorious for the skill and efficacy of their propaganda. Russia's economy is miniscule and yet they punch far above their class. Look at some recent political disasters in the West (e.g., US election of 2016, Brexit, the disinformation surrounding Covid vaccines, the extended hold of US arms to Ukraine) which derive from masterful Russian propaganda. I really admire the effort and the skill. You (meaning Russians) have achieved dramatic results with relatively little effort and resources. California alone has an economy twice as large as Russia's. Three US states (California, Texas and NY) individually have economies larger than Russia's. Imagine if New York had the same kind of organized and skilled propaganda as Russia -- absurd, right?

Why do I ask about your future plans? Ernest Hemingway wrote in "The Sun Also Rises", 'How did you go bankrupt?' "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." Nations fail in the same way. Everything looks solid, then poof! I wonder if you're made any plans against the collapse of the Russian Federation?

As a matter of general interest, how are you being instructed to deal with the Ukrainian incursion in Kursk Oblast?[/QUOTE]Blood Red was active in the Dubai and other forums years before February, 2022. He's a monger or, as Jackson used to say, "sport fucker," not a Russian agent.