Stupid Shit in Kyiv

Good to see you're debating substance, even if ad hominem, instead of arguing that I shouldn't post in this thread because I've never been to Ukraine.

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2935400]Maybe you're better than to cowardly attack someone that left the conversation many months ago, but I don't know. I'm inside riding out a tropical storm and happened to check in here today.[/QUOTE]The definition of "cowardly" is not "adjective used to describe someone I disagree with."

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2935400]All I've said is that you might do well to spend less time arguing for Putin over the internet. That especially applies if you are on in years where remaining time is more precious. I've also made the point that you are late to the party. Your whataboutisms regarding past US actions were answered ad nauseam starting two years ago by myself and others. I'm not doing it over again for a Johnny come lately that migrated over from the opinions forum. However for the record, I and the ICC disagree with your belief that Russia hasn't been targeting civilians. And since you like Wikipedia so much, here's a couple of links for the Cliff Note's versions. Scroll to the bottom for source citations.

[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_civilians_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine[/URL][/QUOTE]Your link says "As of 2024, the attacks had resulted in the UN-documented deaths of between 11,000 and estimated 40,000 dead civilians." How is that inconsistent with what I wrote? I don't believe the Ukrainian estimate that "only 3% of all Russian missiles, drones and bombs hit military targets, while 97% hit civilian targets." Throw out all the anecdotes you want, the ratio of deaths of civilians to combatants is lower than in Gaza in 2023/2024, Vietnam, or Iraq.

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2935400][URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court_arrest_warrants_for_Russian_figures[/URL]

That was easy. Didn't take me ten minutes. Wink.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2935439]Comparing someone like Putin, a cold blooded murderer who murders all his opposition and sometimes slowly, jails journalists, who starts a war with his neighbor that he claims has no right to exist based on a fanciful spin on history, who deports and indoctrinates their children, kills off their civilian populations while hiding the bodies, etc. To post 9/11 US presidents is absurd. And of course it all comes seasoned with the well worn cookie cutter buzz words and "deep state" conspiracy theories, that even those with barely a high school education can parrot online. You're actually a lightweight when it comes to making this brand of arguments. If one wants to just sharpen their iron they could find better.

[URL]https://effectiviology.com/false-equivalence/[/URL][/QUOTE]



Again, since Putin was elected president in 2000, a lot more people have died as a result of military and anti-terrorist actions initiated by the USA than by Russia. Should we start putting ex USA Presidents in jail too? Your argument is no, I guess because they're men of fine character. Torture of people captured by the USA in places like Guantanamo and Middle Eastern countries never occurred. No president ever sanctioned the killing of an American by drone in a foreign country. Killing hundreds of thousands with sanctions and disease is perfectly fine. As is occupying a country thousands of miles away where the USA has no strategic interests. If the USA weren't sticking its nose and guns where they don't belong, there wouldn't have been a terrorist problem.

The bigger concern is that painting Putin and other Russians as genocidal mass murders who will someday be subject to justice is no way to end a conflict that's killing hundreds of thousands of people. That may be fine with neoconservative politicians, who want this to go on and on, and with some of the posters in this thread. But it's not helpful for ordinary Ukrainians and Russians. Or the millions of people in Africa, the Middle East and other places who depend on resources and grain from Russia and Ukraine.



[QUOTE=Paulie97;2935439]Nowadays I treat it like if I was seated on a bar stool listening to this from the guy sitting next to me. I go find a different seat. Though I and others have hammered it out thoroughly here in the past. Any here interesting can check the post history of this thread going back to the Spring of 2022.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, well look at what you and others were saying back as far as November, 2022. Since then the lines of control have barely moved, and yet Ukraine was always on the cusp of winning the war. But, but the mass murderers need to be brought to justice! Ukraine can't negotiate! Well, since then hundreds of thousands have died and they'll go on dying until this comes to an end.

In other words, you gentlemen have been wrong about Ukraine's prospects for victory, and you still are.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2935441]How am I trying to shut down the conversation? By pointing out that this is a forum dedicated to Ukraine rather than the last 24 years of the US and Middle East warring history?

If you really -- and I mean, really -- do not understand the difference between Israel's war on Hamas and savage Putin's war against Ukraine, start another thread in the Israel forum and I'll meet you there. Otherwise, it feels like a false analogy fallacy, which, as you probably know, is a favorite Russian propaganda trick designed to dilute a topic by claiming false equivalence between events that have nothing to do with each other except for one word: WAR.[/QUOTE]Ok, we can make comparisons between Russia and Israel and the USA in the Israel thread, but not here. Fair enough.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2935441]Here you go: You don't believe! That certainly trumps facts and reason. Why didn't you say so before?

Doubt whatever you want. Just do me a little favor. Turn off your Russophilia for 5 fucking minutes and read this:

[URL]https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-erasing-mariupol-499dceae43ed77f2ebfe750ea99b9ad9[/URL][/QUOTE]I don't believe over 75,000 civilians died in Mariupol. For the sake of argument, say the AP article is substantively correct. What's your solution? More death and carnage until Ukraine is wiped off the map? Russia's not going let this go unless it can exit in a way that saves face. Short of sending NATO troops into Ukraine, I don't see how this ends the way you appear to think it will. And nobody wants to see the world's largest nuclear powers fighting face-to-face.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2935441]And if you can spend a little more time, watch 20 Days in Mariupol:

[URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvAyykRvPBo[/URL][/QUOTE]That's 1-1/2 hours long. Please ask Paulie to watch this and summarize it. He's got the time, he's retired.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2935441]You're right somewhat. Putin is not Hitler. Hitler wasn't a coward. Hitler wasn't a thief. His Operation Barbarossa was far better thought out than Putin's "strategy" to throw lots of shit in all directions to see what sticks.[/QUOTE]You may wish to consider whether your analogies are wilder than mine. Please see reply to Paulie below. Do you think Putin is going to end this if he thinks he's going to be prosecuted like Germans at Nuremberg? While you and I don't matter, the western politicians and Ukrainians who make similar claims are preventing this conflict from coming to an end.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2935441]I have no idea what you're talking about. Hundreds of civilians were murdered in Bucha alone. Men, women, children. Sometimes whole families. Did you even read the article beyond the first 3 paragraphs?

Although, I keep forgetting that you don't believe anyway.[/QUOTE]I read it twice and that's what I got out of it. I'm not reading it three times.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935940]Blood Red was active in the Dubai and other forums years before February, 2022. He's a monger or, as Jackson used to say, "sport fucker," not a Russian agent.[/QUOTE]So a monger can't be a paid troll working for the Russian government? What does one thing have to do with another?

Aren't you aware that Dubai is a favorite playground for well-to-do Russians? That was always the case, and today 100 times so since they're not welcome almost anywhere else?

The real tell, however, is not Dubai. It's his unquestionable admiration for Russia and adoration for Putin. Normal people don't talk like that. Even Russian "Zetniks" (look it up) can be critical of Putin and his army.

Him? Never!

That's some loyalty, LOL.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935947]I don't believe over 75,000 civilians died in Mariupol. [/QUOTE]Well, like I said I can't help you with "beliefs".

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935940]For the sake of argument, say the AP article is substantively correct. What's your solution? [/QUOTE]Solution? You're changing the subject again. I just reacted to your wacky and laughable statement that Putin goes out of his way to spare civilians.

While in reality he goes out of his way to target them.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935940]You may wish to consider whether your analogies are wilder than mine. Please see reply to Paulie below. Do you think Putin is going to end this if he thinks he's going to be prosecuted like Germans at Nuremberg? While you and I don't matter, the western politicians and Ukrainians who make similar claims are preventing this conflict from coming to an end.[/QUOTE]Putin won't get to be prosecuted, and he knows that. He won't survive the end of his regime. It's going to be a Ceausescu way: Arrested, sentenced, shot by his own henchmen. All in a matter of hours, with "sentencing" being optional (who needs these formalities, after all?

So Putin has a very solid reason to keep waging the war. As long as he can, he lives.

The question is how long he can. The economy is already circling the drain, new recruits are hard to find (despite the mind-blowing bonuses), and they lose over 30,000 troops a month with almost nothing to show for it.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935940]I read it twice and that's what I got out of it. I'm not reading it three times.[/QUOTE]Twice? And you still can't find the passages about civilians murdered by Putin's butchers in cold blood? Did you know that right after the discovery of the "cleansing", Putin awarded them the title of Guards?

Well, if you need help, I can always paste the quotes here. Just ask.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935942]Good to see you're debating substance, even if ad hominem, instead of arguing that I shouldn't post in this thread because I've never been to Ukraine. [/QUOTE]I actually agree with you on one point. These are free for all threads, so the admins can keep the relevant threads on topic and clean. Talk about whatever you want, while mocking you for migrating around these threads going in circles writing essay after essay for months on end pitching the selfsame "deep state" conspiracy theories and whataboutisms / deflections is allowed. In this case, the "give peace a chance" argument by appeasing a shameless murderous dictator whose forwarding a genocide in Ukraine has been made by you dozens of times already. You've seen the legion of responses which haven't changed. I think you are a fool wasting the world's most precious commodity, time, while it's fair to wonder about your mental stability at this point.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935942]Yeah, well look at what you and others were saying back as far as November, 2022. Since then the lines of control have barely moved, and yet Ukraine was always on the cusp of winning the war. But, but the mass murderers need to be brought to justice! Ukraine can't negotiate! Well, since then hundreds of thousands have died and they'll go on dying until this comes to an end. In other words, you gentlemen have been wrong about Ukraine's prospects for victory, and you still are.[/QUOTE]If anyone here said that Ukraine was "on the cusp of winning the war," then find the post, quote it, and respond to it. If you don't, then we can assume it doesn't exist, and that you are paraphrasing for your benefit, ie. Straw man. Ukraine has had some good moments that were mostly defensive in nature, but the counter offensive did stall. Reasons for that have been discussed ad nauseam while some excellent articles were linked.

Ukraine policy is difficult, but appeasement, by rewriting history and minimizing and sugarcoating Russia's atrocities and goals, while promoting an unfavorable peace, which just gives the invaders time to regroup and go again isn't the answer. And your false equivocations with post 9/11 US actions are not only no help but a joke, that make you look like a fool that needs to go find a new country to live in if you are among us.

Your reply to Xpartan.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935947]That's 1-1/2 hours long. Please ask Paulie to watch this and summarize it. He's got the time, he's retired. [/QUOTE]At least you said please, but you are the one with all the time to waste chasing your tail. Compare your post count to mine for 2024 and I'll rest my case on that. The real problem of course is that Mariupol is a real affront to your line of thinking.

Man up, watch it, and respond without misconstruing it or running back to whataboutism mode and "deep state" nonsense. I'm asking a lot, I know.

Thanks for mentioning my retirement. It's amazing, time for pursuit of hobbies, day trips to the beach and exploration of small Latin American towns, and once in a while the south of France.

Dropping the mic.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935940]Blood Red was active in the Dubai and other forums years before February, 2022. He's a monger or, as Jackson used to say, "sport fucker," not a Russian agent.[/QUOTE]Since you claim that Russia hasn't targeted civilians, hasn't deported and indoctrinated Ukrainian children, you might as well stick up for this guy who claims Alexi Navalny "died of natural causes. " No one can say you aren't consistent. And yea, I know these are very serious matters, but you bring it to the point of hilarity. The incompetence displayed is what invites the mockery. Maybe the clown is from Australia I don't know. Are plenty of people there dumb enough to believe that kind of nonsense as well. The US doesn't have the market cornered.

P.S. Dropping Jackson's name as an aside doesn't help you.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935331] I don't believe Russia is trying to kill civilians.[/QUOTE]Do you now see why your aren't worthy of a serious discussion? Mariupol? Bucha? Etc, too bad. Too bad all these Ukrainian children have been deported and brainwashed. Too bad the ICC is picking on little Vlad. Too bad a young, healthy Navalny happened to get poisoned then soon die "of natural causes" in Siberia, after a long list of similar circumstances with other opponents. Poor pitiful Russia. "Give peace a chance. " All you deserve is mockery, then come whining when you get it. I have as much sympathy for you as I do Russia.

Dear Xpartan and Paulie "Ad Hominem" 97,

I do not believe you are mentally-unstable fools, as Paulie describes me. Rather, you're sadly misguided by the main stream media, including Fox News and the Wall Street Journal, and your neoconservative instincts. The truth lies somewhere between what you believe and what Blood Red says. I'd put a higher probability on the war ending the way he says it will rather than the way you say Xpartan, although both are pretty damn unlikely.

Blood Red knows more about the former Soviet republics than anyone here.

Your friend,

Tiny

Dear Tiny,

Thanks for the 100th helping of RF propaganda and otherwise sympathies. And thanks to them for disseminating it to the world, not only through their people but various online influencers, that take up the mantle and declare it facts and news. Since I'm re-invigorating my hobbies in retirement, I plan to tune into Radio Havana Cuba tonight over shortwave for updates on Venezuela. They after all, like Moscow, have a long history of getting out the real story. Your inspiration has been invaluable.

Your friend,

Paulie.

P.S. By extension I want to thank the many dentally challenged at Trump rallies that pass along not only this, but varieties of other truths they are privy to, not only though the grapevine but through their social media accounts and other online "sources" that specialize in truth. These, who are always quick to remind us we are reading in the wrong places are the real heroes here.

Seems like the Kiev regime is getting more and more desperate with the incursion into Kursk. As they say, desperate people do desperate things, and Ukraine is desperate to say the least at this point in time.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2935851]"Debate"? It's hardly possible or meaningful in this forum. However, I do have an interest in you as a person. Primarily, where do you live? What city? What are your other sources of revenue? What are your future plans?

As I've written previously, Russia is notorious for the skill and efficacy of their propaganda. Russia's economy is miniscule and yet they punch far above their class. Look at some recent political disasters in the West (e.g., US election of 2016, Brexit, the disinformation surrounding Covid vaccines, the extended hold of US arms to Ukraine) which derive from masterful Russian propaganda. I really admire the effort and the skill. You (meaning Russians) have achieved dramatic results with relatively little effort and resources. California alone has an economy twice as large as Russia's. Three US states (California, Texas and NY) individually have economies larger than Russia's. Imagine if New York had the same kind of organized and skilled propaganda as Russia -- absurd, right?

Why do I ask about your future plans? Ernest Hemingway wrote in "The Sun Also Rises", 'How did you go bankrupt?' "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." Nations fail in the same way. Everything looks solid, then poof! I wonder if you're made any plans against the collapse of the Russian Federation?

As a matter of general interest, how are you being instructed to deal with the Ukrainian incursion in Kursk Oblast?[/QUOTE]I currently reside in Dubai. I'm an electrical engineer from the you. S by degree. My future plans are to keep spreading the truth. The Kursk incursion will have no impact on the final outcome of this war, which is a Russian victory. Write that down. Have a nice day.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2936344]I currently reside in Dubai. [/QUOTE]Might not be a lie.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2936344]I'm an electrical engineer [/QUOTE]Might not be a lie.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2936344]from the US[/QUOTE]Total lie.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2936344]My future plans are to keep spreading the truth. [/QUOTE]Great comedy here!

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2936344]The Kursk incursion will have no impact on the final outcome of this war[/QUOTE]Right, because Ukrainians are "desperate", LOL.

[B]Putins Face Betrays Russian Panic Over Ukrainian Invasion Shock[/B]

[URL]https://www.thedailybeast.com/putins-face-betrays-russian-panic-over-ukrainian-invasion-shock[/URL]

[B]Video shows bodies on burnt-out Russian trucks in Kursk region as Ukrainian cross-border assaults rage[/B]

[URL]https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/09/europe/russia-lipetsk-kursk-ukraine-zelensky-intl/index.html[/URL]

[B]Panic among residents in Kursk, villages are being emptied, thousands of residents are evacuated[/B]

[URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDC-Yn-J59U[/URL]

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2936344]a Russian victory. Write that down. Have a nice day.[/QUOTE]Pure fantasy. The fate of Russia will be decided by the Russians, but the heroic Ukrainian resistance is going to give it a crucial nudge.

The Second Russian Civil War is coming.

[QUOTE]God save us from seeing a Russian revolt, senseless and merciless.[/QUOTE]A. Pushkin.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2936344]I currently reside in Dubai. I'm an electrical engineer from the you. S by degree. My future plans are to keep spreading the truth. The Kursk incursion will have no impact on the final outcome of this war, which is a Russian victory. Write that down. Have a nice day.[/QUOTE]Are you a U.S. citizen? If so, thank goodness you weren't around in the 1950's. If you'd gotten caught saying positive things about the Soviet Union, you might have been hauled before McCarthy's House Un-American Activities Committee. Or, if some of our posters' wild ideas about your identity were true, strapped to an electric chair like Ethel Rosenberg. Ethel's execution wasn't a pretty sight. She wouldn't die. They had to shock her two more times after the first try to kill her. At the end, smoke rose from her head.

Ethel was convicted by perjured testimony. She may have been innocent, and certainly her alleged crimes didn't justify the death penalty. Offered a deal by prosecutors, she said, "By asking us to repudiate the truth of our innocence, the Government admits its own doubts concerning our guilt. Our respect for truth, conscience and human dignity is not for sale. Justice is not some bauble to be sold to the highest bidder. " She left behind two young boys.

In the end, she was a stronger defender of American values than Joseph McCarthy or Roy Cohn, and many present-day rabid anti-Russian neoconservative politicians.

This article is dated but shows what I think is happening.

[URL]https://www.newsweek.com/2022/08/12/putin-targeting-civilians-ukraine-what-evidence-shows-1729463.html[/URL]

The Russians aren't intentionally targeting civilians with bombs and artillery. There actually are military targets near where the bombs hit. It's just that their missiles, artillery and bombs aren't accurate. Russia doesn't help its case in certain instances, like the excuse for the 22 civilians killed in an apartment building in Serhiivka. Russia claimed the Ukrainians staged the incident, when in reality the Russians were targeting an ammunition depot two miles away. If they'd fessed up, they would have looked incompetent.

In at least one case, a hospital in Vuhledar, the Ukrainians probably accidentally launched the missile that caused the deaths and blamed it on Russia.

So what about Bucha? That was a travesty. But certainly it's not unique. The USA has committed many war crimes, including My Lai which was similar in size to Bucha. I don't see how you can justify prosecuting Putin for war crimes in Ukraine if you're going to let Lyndon Baines Johnson and George W. Bush off scot free.

I'll withhold comment on Mariupol until I watch Xpartan's hour-and-a-half long video. Which may be never.

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2936200]

P.S. By extension I want to thank the many dentally challenged at Trump rallies that pass along not only this, but varieties of other truths they are privy to, not only though the grapevine but through their social media accounts and other online "sources" that specialize in truth. These, who are always quick to remind us we are reading in the wrong places are the real heroes here.[/QUOTE]

Paulie, Please see reply in American Politics thread

I don't know how military experts feel about the last week's events, but I personally salute Russia and its mighty leader for their generosity. I mean, to yield 1,000 square kilometers in a week and provide AFU with a thousand POWs for the Ukraine's "Exchange Fund" -- one has to be a truly benevolent fella with a big, throbbing heart. Bottomless even.

This good-will gesture goes way beyond multiple Russian retreats of 2022, especially since Russia's sacred land hasn't seen foreign invaders in the last 80 years.

Once again: kudos!