Thai Women - Opinions & Advice

supply and demand.

a normal level of prostitution in a first world country is around about five hundred working girls per million of population. so, when thailand eventually gets up to speed with it's economy (which it will, eventually), there will (allowing for tourists and expats) be about 2 to 3000 prostitutes in pattaya. then, after the thai authorities do the final clean-up there will be the normal quota of a few hundred girls working in discreet locations, with seasonal increases just like in any tourist resort.

Run Mann, Giotto and Terry Terrier,

Thank you for your replies. I have to admit to writing my last two posts in the wee hours of the morning and in a very bad mood and they probably didn't come across in the manner that I meant them to. Exit and re-training is a subject that really gets my goat and I apologise for getting all emotional and not explaining myself properly. As an ex-hooker who has really been struggling to survive in 'real world' employment, I'm probably a little too close to the subject.

I totally support national programs to improve the social and economic status of women and I didn't mean to give the impression that I was opposed to job creation that may prevent some of those women ending up in sex work when they didn't really want to be there. But I get suspicious when a primary objective of a program is to cut and/or eradicate prostitution, because in most cases, it ends up targeting only women already working in the sex industry, not those 'at risk' of entering it. It depends whether the Thai Govt is really committed to creating a level playing field for all women, or if they just want to see a decrease in sex industry employment. That will determine whether women are really offered viable alternatives, or whether they are forced (which is probably too strong a word to use, but exit programs are often highly coercive) to leave sex work when they don't really want to.

Anyway, that's not why I wrote my original post - I was genuinely interested in your thoughts on the subject, but got carried away on another tangent. I was surprised to see P4P clients supporting plans to reduce supply, particularly in the Thailand forum. A client's view of the industry is unique and I really do like to hear how you guys perceive sex workers and the impression you get of their lives and loves. That's why I've hung around this board for so many years! So instead of asking roundabout questions that can be easily misinterpreted, I'll ask you outright - do you think that [i]current[/i] Thai sex workers would see (for example) working in an IT centre, as a viable alternative to sex work? Do you believe that any of the jobs they create will be truly comparable to sex work in regard to wages and hours?

Smooches, Freeler :) and Mick Licker, you rock. That was a beautiful post.

[QUOTE=Run Mann]...we all essentially said at different times that the Thai Hierarchy can reduce prostitution in their country much the same as the Koreans did by offering positive changes or words to that effect.[/QUOTE]
Just out of interest, in the past few years there has been a MASSIVE increase in Korean women migrating to other countries to work as sex workers. Australia is one of the primary destination countries, where we have seen at least a five-fold increase of Korean workers, but it's also been well documented in other countries. Korea's efforts to reduce prostitution coincided with changes to travel/visa restrictions, which led to many Korean sex workers 'fleeing' the Korean sex industry in search of better working conditions, better money and less (negative) attention from the Government and authorities.

To me, this is another example of coercive and/or abusive anti-prostitution strategies - being passed off as 'positive changes' and 'viable alternatives' for sex workers - failing dismally. The Korean Govt may be claiming a win on the war against prostitution, but all they've really done is send their sex workers to other countries. Not that we mind, of course - we're happy to have them. :)

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]Probably not, unless you have highly desirable skills, a post-grad degree and can get a job teaching university (no age limits at unis): not an easy thing to do especially outside of Bangkok.[/QUOTE]I have a Master's degree, of course. ;

If I move to Thaland it will be on a decent pension, but certainly don't want to spend all day and night chasing women. I'd be bored to death.

Ok, maybe four hours a day chasing.

By all means governments have a responsibility to try to create an environment where women will have lots of choices for work that can pay enough to live on. A lot easier said than done. Thai culture causes fathers to take their daughters out of school at a young age. The bad attitude of the father is that its a waste of money educating girls when their destiny is to become a housewife and look after the kids.

Other opportunities is not so important for prostitutes doing very well.
The problem is that there are too many P4P (full or part time) in Bangkok to allow them all to make a good living. then again there are too many taxis too.

The alternatives should be for those who cannot earn enough selling sex.

Educating women to delay having babies seems important to me. The number of single mothers, whose Thai husbands have run away abandoning both wife and child, that need to to get extra money somehow is extraordinary in Thailand.

There is no legally forced child support from fathers as far as I know.

Prostitution will never go away.
Those countries with few choices for well paid jobs but lots of pretty women, and any acceptance that sex itself is really not so evil, will always have the most P4P girls.

Just accept it and enjoy it! I envy those who are not sex addicts and can just leave sex alone.

I proudly support girls of Thailand and their kids financially unlike the real fathers of the those kids.

[QUOTE=Mick Licker]By all means governments have a responsibility to try to create an environment where women will have lots of choices for work that can pay enough to live on. A lot easier said than done. Thai culture causes fathers to take their daughters out of school at a young age. The bad attitude of the father is that its a waste of money educating girls when their destiny is to become a housewife and look after the kids.

Other opportunities is not so important for prostitutes doing very well.
The problem is that there are too many P4P (full or part time) in Bangkok to allow them all to make a good living. then again there are too many taxis too.

The alternatives should be for those who cannot earn enough selling sex.

Educating women to delay having babies seems important to me. The number of single mothers, whose Thai husbands have run away abandoning both wife and child, that need to to get extra money somehow is extraordinary in Thailand.

There is no legally forced child support from fathers as far as I know.

Prostitution will never go away.
Those countries with few choices for well paid jobs but lots of pretty women, and any acceptance that sex itself is really not so evil, will always have the most P4P girls.

Just accept it and enjoy it! I envy those who are not sex addicts and can just leave sex alone.

I proudly support girls of Thailand and their kids financially unlike the real fathers of the those kids.[/QUOTE]


Actually, you raise a very good point. Strong family law would be a really good first step. There's nothing in place now. Not surprising, as it's a patriarchal society and Thai men are nortorious for not accepting responsibility for anything. In fact most are never completely weened off their mother's tit and stay irresponsible babies all their lives.

[QUOTE=Rubber Nursey]
So instead of asking roundabout questions that can be easily misinterpreted, I'll ask you outright - do you think that [i]current[/i] Thai sex workers would see (for example) working in an IT centre, as a viable alternative to sex work? Do you believe that any of the jobs they create will be truly comparable to sex work in regard to wages and hours?.[/QUOTE]

If I may intrude in this lovely battle of wits, my personal view is that one cannot answer that question because in Thailand there are in fact at least two sex industries, one catering to local needs and one for the sex tourists. I have only limited insight into the Thai-oriented scene, but as far as the Farang-oriented market is concerned, my impression is that the Thai economy will probably never be able (nor willing) to compete to attract the best and brightest (and cutest) gals who can be successful in the naughty nightlife. There is simply too much money to be made too easily.

The other aspect is that for many of the Thai girls servicing the Farang market, it is a fun life to have. There is the excitement of the big city, the buzz of the nightlife, plentiful booze, plenty of funny friends to make, and enough money to indulge in the occasional shopping spree while still sending home the all important money that the family has come to expect. Anyhow, it sure beats taking care of the cattle home in Wherethefuckaburi or indeed working 14 hours a day in a meat packing factory in suburban Bangkok.

True, it is a relatively short career, but long-term planning is not a Thai strong point Besides, most of these gals had very little to lose in term of social face or respectability to start with and coming home to Wherethefuckaburi with enough money to build a decent house sort of compensates the social stigma.

I suppose that one could reason along similar lines for sex workers in the Thai scene, so that p4p in Thailand will stay, I guess, even if it is true that the sex scene is no more what it used to be. That may be because the top 10% of the potential sex workers have found better things to do with their lives, however I suspect that there is an increasingly important segment of the Thai p4p population that is now simply seeking to get better money abroad (Singapore or Macau for example) for the same work.

[QUOTE=Seydlitz]. Anyhow, it sure beats taking care of the cattle home in Wherethefuckaburi [/QUOTE]

Now what part of Isaan might that be in?

Perhaps that's Opebo's home town!

[QUOTE=Old Thai Hand]You're a funny guy, is what you are. Is that all you can come up with? I can't believe that you mean this silly statement to be taken seriously. But, I'll respond as if that's your intention.

No, Mr. O it's not your right, especially here. You are a guest. You have no rights or say in anything in LOS. As a Farang, your position here is so tenuous, you could be tossed out on your ass, without a reason. So, if the state wants to do something positive (job creation, increased salaries) to eradicate prostitution, it is THEIR right.[/QUOTE]

You are such a simplistic literalist, Old - I did not mean that one has a recognized right in Thai law to be free from State interference in one's sex life. I was referring to human rights in a more general, theoretical, and international sense - in other words my opinion of what should be human rights. Certainly in practice none of we working class persons have any rights at all, either at home or abroad. Rights are reserved - in fact - for the owning class.

It also became clear from some of your other posts that you misunderstood me in other ways. I did not imply that one has a right 'to a prostitute'. I stated that both john and prostitute have a right to expect to be free from State interference in their interactions. If you and she cannot come to an amicable arrangement then that's your problem.

[quote=rubber nursey]to me, this is another example of coercive and/or abusive anti-prostitution strategies - being passed off as 'positive changes' and 'viable alternatives' for sex workers - failing dismally. the korean govt may be claiming a win on the war against prostitution, but all they've really done is send their sex workers to other countries. not that we mind, of course - we're happy to have them. :)[/quote]
this is just poor diminutive flavor analysis of a given situation. this story about increase korean women entering australian has been out there for a while. after human traffickers started having visa and other issues bringing thai women into australia they focused their efforts on korean women by promising them the moon. not sure why you think all these women were originally sex workers but it’s actually a faulty assertion. many of them were ordinary women, (we have seen similar situation in other countries) that were duped and deceived with false promises of large sums of money for employment. korean women are inveterately known to be delicacies for many sexual appetites. go to london, nyc, los angeles, amsterdam and many other major cities and you will find them. they are there because of the demand for them not because of the crackdown. there are many examples of how the koreans have successfully transform their country but i see no reason to list them here.

i will agree with you on the point you made that you are too close this being a (former) sex worker yourself to be objective of which you seem not to be, at least as it pertains to this situation. you summarily dismissed oth’s research (presentation) because it was contrary to your view and you immaturely and incorrectly analyzed the above without any empirical data to support your claim coupled with your previous post here where you were off base (although you explained your reason for that) says that you are looking more for validation of your views than objective answers or analysis with your question in that last post. of course this is just my honest view based on what you’ve written here and not meant to attack you as a person. here are a couple of links to about koreans and some of their issue in australia and see the story below about increase koreans entering australian and a detail [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord908][CodeWord908][/url] report from the aussies that touch on the issues with the koreans.

having said all that i wish you well in what ever mission you are on but would say as you probably already know objectivity will produce the truth.

[url]http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23334240-12377,00.html[/url]

http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/what's%20new/australiatrafficking.pdf

[url]http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/ci_8479109[/url]________________________________________________________________
australian sex traffickers target korean women

sydney - traffickers are turning to south korean women after a crackdown by australian police on the importation of "sex slaves" from thailand, australia's national broadcaster has charged.

the australian crime commission confirmed that while the number of thai sex workers in australia had decreased, the number from south korea had increased, the abc website reported yesterday.
"traffickers in particular knew that thai women were being watched more, they were being scrutinised more," said kathleen altzahn from the non-government organisation project respect.

"in the case specifically of south korean women, they don't have to get the same sort of visas as thai women. they can get working holiday visas, so then they can work legally in australia without so much difficulty."
thai women are often gang-raped, starved and beaten to coerce them into accepting the conditions of contracts which demand they pay "debts" of up to a$50,000 ($37,500) to the traffickers, she said.

a former sex worker, nikki, told the lateline programme that there seemed to be a shift where thai women were still being brought out to australian brothels but so were many korean women. "traffickers are just finding another way, basically, to get around things," she said. "it's gone from thai women and now there's a demand for let's say more exotic asian women like korean women. "i have a prediction that the next spate will be african women. and where there is a demand, someone will supply."

justice minister chris ellison was quoted as saying he was pleased that the shift from thai women to south korean women had been picked up because police could now adjust their tactics.

[QUOTE=Run Mann]Not sure why you think all these women were originally sex workers but it’s actually a faulty assertion. Many of them were ordinary women as we have seen in from many other countries that were duped and deceived with false promises of large sums of money for employment.[/QUOTE]
I've been heavily involved in issues around trafficking in Australia for a number of years and I can't even begin to tell you how ill-informed the Australian media is on the issue. Groups like Project Respect, quoted in the article you posted, rely heavily on promoting and perpetuating trafficking myths so they'll keep getting bucketfuls of money thrown at them. With encouragement from people like the US Government, they've turned trafficking into a multi-million dollar 'rescue' industry. The Australian Institute of Criminology is due to release a report which will hopefully open a few people's eyes to the realities of trafficking in Australia.

My comment wasn't a scientific analysis of the situation - it was just my personal opinion (I did say 'to me'). However, my opinion is based on both anecdotal evidence from Korean sex workers and empirical data.
[url]http://www.scarletalliance.org.au/issues/migrant-workers/2008/[/url]
[url]http://www.scarletalliance.org.au/issues/migrant-workers/[/url]
[url]http://www.scarletalliance.org.au/issues/migration/[/url]

As to dismissing OTH's colleague's research, I was a bit miffed at his suggestion that I knew nothing about prostitution, but is mate does because he's done some study about it. It was childish of me to get snappy, but to be fair, OTH then dismissed Empower as an ineffectual rabble (which is absolutely untrue) because [i]he[/i] didn't agree with [i]my[/i] point of view. He also turned the whole thing into a very personal attack, which I wasn't prepared for and responded badly to.

I'm not looking for validation of my own beliefs. I know exactly where I stand on the issue of education and re-training and I'm not likely to change my mind unless I see an example of some sort of success. What I'm interested in is how other people (clients, NGOs, Govts, etc) justify these sorts of programs. I like to hear different perspectives...although I admit it's mostly so I can develop arguments against alternative opinions. ;) But if every one of you guys had answered 'Yes, I think Thai hookers would leave the industry in droves if they opened an IT centre', then I might have to reconsider my position, or at least try and see the issue from a different angle.

[QUOTE=Seydlitz]The other aspect is that for many of the Thai girls servicing the Farang market, it is a fun life to have. There is the excitement of the big city, the buzz of the nightlife, plentiful booze, plenty of funny friends to make, and enough money to indulge in the occasional shopping spree while still sending home the all important money that the family has come to expect.[/QUOTE]
That's a really important point, Seydlitz, and one that's often overlooked when talking about viable alternatives to sex work. For many girls, hooking is not just about the money - it's an entire lifestyle. When workers leave the industry, they are often also walking away from their friends, their social lives and sometimes even their sex lives.

The stigma of sex work can really impact on your ability to maintain relationships with people outside the sex industry, to the point where just about everyone you know is either a hooker, a client or a brothel owner. When you 'get a real job' you have to leave your entire support network behind, especially in cases where being seen with your old workmates could put your current employment at risk. It's very, very hard to walk away from everything you know and love.

[QUOTE=Rubber Nursey]
As to dismissing OTH's colleague's research, I was a bit miffed at his suggestion that I knew nothing about prostitution, but is mate does because he's done some study about it. It was childish of me to get snappy, but to be fair, OTH then dismissed Empower as an ineffectual rabble (which is absolutely untrue) because [i]he[/i] didn't agree with [i]my[/i] point of view. He also turned the whole thing into a very personal attack, which I wasn't prepared for and responded badly to.[/QUOTE]

Firstly, Empower largely represents girls in the Farang-oriented sex industry which makes up less than 10% of the total sex industry in Thailand. It doesn't for instance represent Burmese sex slaves languishing in hundreds of border brothels, nor the Indian hookers trafficked into Paharat in Bangkok.

I never said you knew nothing about prostitution, I said you appeared to know little about prostitution in Thailand especially as it relates to Thai culture. But, perhaps my assessment was wrong.

"Some study" that my collegaue did was an intense, thorough 2-year investigation into every nook and cranny of the sex industry in Thailand. It was so thorough in fact, that it sent shivers through the Thai ministry that funded it and they immediately buried it as too explosive. The last thing the Thai government wants made public is the shameful truth about the pervasive and sinister dark side of prostitution in this country.

If by personal attack, you mean because I called you a feminazi; well perhaps that was unfair. But, you were coming across a bit strident and femi-something and you weren't too objective in your comments about me, as well. Even if all of us don't agree, it's best to try to keep it non-personal.

[QUOTE=Rubber Nursey]It was childish of me to get snappy, but to be fair, OTH then dismissed Empower as an ineffectual rabble (which is absolutely untrue) because [i]he[/i] didn't agree with [i]my[/i] point of view. He also turned the whole thing into a very personal attack, which I wasn't prepared for and responded badly to. [/QUOTE]
Then I suppose you can see why you came across as I described (too emotionally involved), still his actions doesn't justify yours.

Those stories about the Korean women being trafficked and there are more stories, were also reported by the Korean and U.S media unless that are all lying about those women being trafficked. Interesting that after reading that article by where the Australian Government identified the reasoning for the influx of Koreans, you attempt to counter that factual article because it is in contrast to your opinion. I did not see anything in those articles you posted that supported your opinion. However, even though you said it was your opinion and used an event incorrectly as a precursor to your opinion, you should be responsible in making opinionated claims that any minor research would have produce the answers to if you are serious about being, that word again.. objective. Good luck.

[quote=rubber nursey]i've been heavily involved in issues around trafficking in australia for a number of years and i can't even begin to tell you how ill-informed the australian media is on the issue. groups like project respect, quoted in the article you posted, rely heavily on promoting and perpetuating trafficking myths so they'll keep getting bucketfuls of money thrown at them. with encouragement from people like the us government, they've turned trafficking into a multi-million dollar 'rescue' industry. the australian institute of criminology is due to release a report which will hopefully open a few people's eyes to the realities of trafficking in australia.
[/quote]
i have been aquainted with several girls working illegally in australia in the past (mostly thai but some others).
i haven't been to places where girls are totally locked up like sex slaves. i wouldn't have been let in.

the girls i knew had several enemies:
1. the australian immigration out to catch them, lock them up in detention, and send them back to their home country.
2. the contract bosses who had tricked them, taking virtually all the money earned until the massive contract was paid off.
some bosses would report girls to immigration once the debt was paid off. mostly the girls' passports had been confirep001ed by the bosses to prevent girls escaping. some girls were kept under very strict "supervision" all the time.
but not all bosses were totally evil.
3. other working girls jealous of the foreign girl's popularity would report them to immigration.

the customers were the good guys (mostly) and some customers helped girls to escape from their extreme situations.

some girls who were really lucky made a lot of money in the end and much more than what they could have in their home country.

the authorities should have been focussing on illegal activities of the contract bosses, be it taxation fraud, stealing passports, selling girls on to a 3rd party, imprisoning girls, coercing girls to work with no work permit, etc.
the girls themselves were just pawns in the play.

its very strange to government authorities deporting foreign prostitutes, seemingly to protect the higher priced business of australian prostitutes who delivered a poor service on average (a few good ones but mostly lousy in my opinion), and protecting the very lucrative business of brothel owners not using the illegal foreign workers.

the european common market is great because it allows prostitutes to work, coming from a very broad set of foreign countries, although the fkk clubs in germany do have police raids from time to time too, checking credentials for working (could be looking for **** girls).