[QUOTE=Jarango;2940060]These want to be rambos are the types we run away from in bars. All mouth, no brains. Just like the Ukrainians, or what is left of them.[/QUOTE]Here comes a new challenger.
Printable View
[QUOTE=Jarango;2940060]These want to be rambos are the types we run away from in bars. All mouth, no brains. Just like the Ukrainians, or what is left of them.[/QUOTE]Here comes a new challenger.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2939926]You didn't answer his question at all. Try again please?[/QUOTE]I'm a pacifist. I'm not a Nationalist. While Canada is a tad socialist and the Ukrainians haven't done nearly as good a job of managing their economy as the Russians, I wouldn't see the point of dying for my country to defend Minnesota from the bloodthirsty Canadians or Kursk from the bloodthirsty Ukrainians.
That said I don't really understand JC's questions. Maybe you could answer them? Also it would be helpful if you could relate your answer back to JC's point that I was debating when he asked the questions:
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2939670]
Who would have predicted the end of the Romanovs 1917 or the end of the USSR in 1991? I'm simply saying, that for your own well being and mental health, you should try to imagine the end of Putin.[/QUOTE]I believe JC is employing the Socratic method of teaching, and he went right over my head.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2940087]I'm a pacifist. I'm not a Nationalist. While Canada is a tad socialist and the Ukrainians haven't done nearly as good a job of managing their economy as the Russians, I wouldn't see the point of dying for my country to defend Minnesota from the bloodthirsty Canadians or Kursk from the bloodthirsty Ukrainians.[/QUOTE]2 things that are glaring. You refuse to answer the question that was asked. The first time, you didn't answer at all, the second time after being called out, you answered from a personal perspective, which wasn't what was asked either.
If the Ukrainians are bloodthirsty for invading Russia after a war has already started, what pray are the Russians for:
1) Invading a sovereign state at peace.
2) Raping and killing the civilians.
3) Maintaining a constant terror threat over the civilian population by attacking civilian infrastructure.
4) Stopping grain shipments to the Middle East and Africa.
5) Kidnapping Ukrainian children.
6) Conscripting Ukrainian citizens from occupied territories.
Many of these 6 are full on War Crimes, hence the warrants out for Putler.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2940087]the Ukrainians haven't done nearly as good a job of managing their economy as the Russians.[/QUOTE]BTW VinDici, I'd be all for Singapore invading and annexing the island I now call home. The standard of living would go up a lot. That's assuming nobody died and no homes, schools, etc. were destroyed in the process.
Of course, if Ukraine were a member of the EU, it would be a lot better off than it is now. A serious question, why didn’t that happen? I honestly don’t know. Was it because the governments were corrupt and unwilling to clean up their acts?
And along the same line, if Russia would have become a member of NATO back 20 years ago, or if NATO hadnt continued to target Russia as its reason for existence, none of this would have happened. But unfortunately that wasnt acceptable to the western neoconservatives who call the shots.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2939988]No, he wasn't. That's a lie.
All over what? What does that even mean? Prove it with polls and data. What percentage of Ukrainians are Nazi?
And that gave Putin a reason to invade Ukraine and kill hundreds of thousands of people? Statues?
In other words, you've lied again. Congrats![/QUOTE]You haven't seen the photo of Zaluzhny wearing a bracelet sporting a Nazi swastika? Probably not since you only jerk off to the pathetic western mainstream media which feeds you lies which you swallow up like the gullible fool that you are.
You failed to answer how you feel about the fact that Bandera is a national hero in Ukraine and there are statues of him and roads names after him all over? Does that bother you?
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2940087]...That said I don't really understand JC's questions. Maybe you could answer them? Also it would be helpful if you could relate your answer back to JC's point that I was debating when he asked the questions:
I believe JC is employing the Socratic method of teaching, and he went right over my head.[/QUOTE]I am concerned with BloodRed's emotional well being.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2940093]Of course, if Ukraine were a member of the EU, it would be a lot better off than it is now. A serious question, why didnt that happen? I honestly dont know. Was it because the governments were corrupt and unwilling to clean up their acts?
And along the same line, if Russia would have become a member of NATO back 20 years ago, or if NATO hadnt continued to target Russia as its reason for existence, none of this would have happened. But unfortunately that wasnt acceptable to the western neoconservatives who call the shots.[/QUOTE]Ukraine didn't have a chance of joining the EU, since each time they tried to take steps in that direction, Russia intervened to stop it. Case in point the Maidan protests saga, which was followed by Russian invasion of Ukrainian territory in contradiction of all previous treaties. This is so well documented, so it seems like malicious intent to pretend that it's unclear why UA has had trouble establishing closer relations with the rest of Europe.
As far as Russia joining NATO is concerned, you may as well allow a team of rapists to babysit your kids, it's an equally clever idea with the same expected results.
Here is some history for the Z Team to reacquaint themselves with:
Since 2012, Ukraine and the EU had been negotiating a free trade and association agreement. In 2013, the Verkhovna Rada (Ukrainian parliament) overwhelmingly approved finalizing the agreement with the EU, and Yanukovych urged parliament to adopt laws so that Ukraine would meet the EU's criteria and be able to sign the agreement in November 2013.
Russia, however, put pressure on Ukraine to reject the EU Association Agreement. In August 2013, Russia began restricting Ukrainian imports, which Ukraine's opposition parties described as "a trade war" to pressure the country not to sign the agreement. The agreement was to be finalized at a summit in the Lithuanian capital Vilnius. On 21 November, a week before the summit, Yanukovych suddenly announced he was pulling out of the agreement, and instead strengthening economic ties with Russia. Jovita Neliupienė, foreign policy aide to Lithuania's president Dalia Grybauskaitė, said Yanukovych had called her to say he had changed his mind due to what she called Russian "economic pressure and blackmail". The Lithuanian president's office said Russia had threatened Ukraine with huge trade losses and job losses if it signed the EU agreement. Russia also offered more favorable trade terms than those offered by the EU and IMF.
This sparked protests at Independence Square (Maidan Nezalezhnosti) in the center of Kyiv, which became known as 'Euromaidan'. The protesters, united under the Maidan People's Union, demanded Yanukovych fulfill his pledge to sign the Agreement or else resign. They also called for a return to the 2004 Constitution of Ukraine to give more power to parliament over the president. The scope of the protests soon widened. Protesters opposed what they saw as widespread government corruption, abuse of power, human rights violations, and the influence of oligarchs.
During the 'Maidan uprising', Independence Square was a huge protest camp occupied by thousands of protesters and protected by makeshift barricades. It had kitchens, first aid posts and broadcasting facilities, as well as stages for speeches, lectures, debates and performances. Police assaulted the camp several times, causing further anger.
Yanukovych has been accused, by Amnesty International among others, of using the Berkut to threaten, attack, and torture protesters. The Berkut, later disbanded on 25 February 2014, were a special police force under his personal command and were accused of defending Russian interests.
Violence escalated after 16 January 2014, when Yanukovych signed draconian Anti-Protest Laws. The first protesters were killed in fierce clashes with police on Hrushevsky Street on 1922 January. In response, demonstrators occupied provincial government buildings in many regions of Ukraine. On 28 January, parliament repealed nine of the 12 restrictive laws. That day, Mykola Azarov, the prime minister of Ukraine, resigned "for the sake of a peaceful resolution" to the civil unrest.
The deadliest clashes were on 1820 February, which saw the most severe violence in Ukraine since it regained independence. Thousands of protesters advanced from the Maidan in Kyiv towards parliament, led by activists with shields and helmets. They were fired on by police snipers. Almost 100 protesters were killed, as were 13 police officers.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2940181]Ukraine didn't have a chance of joining the EU, since each time they tried to take steps in that direction, Russia intervened to stop it. Case in point the Maidan protests saga, which was followed by Russian invasion of Ukrainian territory in contradiction of all previous treaties. This is so well documented, so it seems like malicious intent to pretend that it's unclear why UA has had trouble establishing closer relations with the rest of Europe.
As far as Russia joining NATO is concerned, you may as well allow a team of rapists to babysit your kids, it's an equally clever idea with the same expected results.
Here is some history for the Z Team to reacquaint themselves with:
Since 2012, Ukraine and the EU had been negotiating a free trade and association agreement. In 2013, the Verkhovna Rada (Ukrainian parliament) overwhelmingly approved finalizing the agreement with the EU, and Yanukovych urged parliament to adopt laws so that Ukraine would meet the EU's criteria and be able to sign the agreement in November 2013.
Russia, however, put pressure on Ukraine to reject the EU Association Agreement. In August 2013, Russia began restricting Ukrainian imports, which Ukraine's opposition parties described as "a trade war" to pressure the country not to sign the agreement. The agreement was to be finalized at a summit in the Lithuanian capital Vilnius. On 21 November, a week before the summit, Yanukovych suddenly announced he was pulling out of the agreement, and instead strengthening economic ties with Russia. Jovita Neliupienė, foreign policy aide to Lithuania's president Dalia Grybauskaitė, said Yanukovych had called her to say he had changed his mind due to what she called Russian "economic pressure and blackmail". The Lithuanian president's office said Russia had threatened Ukraine with huge trade losses and job losses if it signed the EU agreement. Russia also offered more favorable trade terms than those offered by the EU and IMF.
This sparked protests at Independence Square (Maidan Nezalezhnosti) in the center of Kyiv, which became known as 'Euromaidan'. The protesters, united under the Maidan People's Union, demanded Yanukovych fulfill his pledge to sign the Agreement or else resign. They also called for a return to the 2004 Constitution of Ukraine to give more power to parliament over the president. The scope of the protests soon widened. Protesters opposed what they saw as widespread government corruption, abuse of power, human rights violations, and the influence of oligarchs.
During the 'Maidan uprising', Independence Square was a huge protest camp occupied by thousands of protesters and protected by makeshift barricades. It had kitchens, first aid posts and broadcasting facilities, as well as stages for speeches, lectures, debates and performances. Police assaulted the camp several times, causing further anger.
Yanukovych has been accused, by Amnesty International among others, of using the Berkut to threaten, attack, and torture protesters. The Berkut, later disbanded on 25 February 2014, were a special police force under his personal command and were accused of defending Russian interests.
Violence escalated after 16 January 2014, when Yanukovych signed draconian Anti-Protest Laws. The first protesters were killed in fierce clashes with police on Hrushevsky Street on 1922 January. In response, demonstrators occupied provincial government buildings in many regions of Ukraine. On 28 January, parliament repealed nine of the 12 restrictive laws. That day, Mykola Azarov, the prime minister of Ukraine, resigned "for the sake of a peaceful resolution" to the civil unrest.
The deadliest clashes were on 1820 February, which saw the most severe violence in Ukraine since it regained independence. Thousands of protesters advanced from the Maidan in Kyiv towards parliament, led by activists with shields and helmets. They were fired on by police snipers. Almost 100 protesters were killed, as were 13 police officers.[/QUOTE]Interesting discussion, thanks for taking the time to write it up. It's interesting Yanukovych, who as you know was very pro Russian, was initially pushing for EU membership for Ukraine and getting push back from Russia. I vaguely remember that.
I ran across this article on the subject, which I think is pretty good.
[URL]https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/07/17/ukraine-eu-european-union-nato-membership-reform-subsidies-budget-reconstruction-agriculture-war-russia/[/URL]
It does say, "The Ukrainians are checking more and more boxes on the long EU membership to-do list, from reforming their judiciary to developing a new media law to cracking down on corruption. " But the much larger issue is that other EU members don't want to pay their share of support for Ukraine.
"At the heart of the issue is the EU budget, which is dominated by two major elements: agricultural subsidies and development projects in poorer regions, which combined account for roughly 65 percent of the EU's long-term budget. For both these issues, prospective Ukrainian membership is explosive. Ukraine is one of the poorest countries in Europe, with a per capita income of barely one-tenth of the EU average and less than half that of the EU's poorest member, Bulgaria. Ukraine also now has vast infrastructure and reconstruction needs. To all of this, add one of the continent's largest agricultural sectors that would suddenly be eligible for EU subsidies.
Were the EU's budget and redistribution process to remain unchanged, Kyiv would immediately suck in a vast part of the EU budget, including funds now going to the bloc's less affluent members in Eastern Europe and elsewhere. Many countries currently benefiting from EU funds would turn into net contributors overnight. ".
Another impediment is that countries dependent on agriculture like Poland, Solvakia and Hungary don't want Ukrainian farmers to have duty free access to the EU. And the EU already has too many members, considering it takes unanimous approval by all members to get some things done.
Wouldn't it be better to see European and other western money going to alleviate poverty and build up the economy in Ukraine, through EU membership or otherwise, instead of to wage war. Sounding like a broken record, the two sides should negotiate peace and get this behind them. I disagree with you and Blood Red. I don't think there's going to be a winner.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2940090]2 things that are glaring. You refuse to answer the question that was asked. The first time, you didn't answer at all, the second time after being called out, you answered from a personal perspective, which wasn't what was asked either.
If the Ukrainians are bloodthirsty for invading Russia after a war has already started, what pray are the Russians for:
1) Invading a sovereign state at peace.
2) Raping and killing the civilians.
3) Maintaining a constant terror threat over the civilian population by attacking civilian infrastructure.
4) Stopping grain shipments to the Middle East and Africa.
5) Kidnapping Ukrainian children.
6) Conscripting Ukrainian citizens from occupied territories.
Many of these 6 are full on War Crimes, hence the warrants out for Putler.[/QUOTE]I love you too VinDici. Most Canadians and Ukrainians are not bloodthirsty. That's satire. Contrary to your belief, most Russians aren't either.
How many hundreds of thousands more must die on both sides to pursue the goal of prosecuting Putin for war crimes? And, again, if you're going to do that, why not go after people like George W. Bush and Lyndon Johnson?
That said, you're very persistent, and I want you to be happy. So I posed Clayton's questions to perplexity.ai, a machine which is a lot smarter than I am, and these are the answers.
[b]Question: Where are the brave and patriotic Russians fighting the Ukrainians in Kursk?[/b]
The situation in Kursk, like many aspects of the ongoing conflict between Russia and Ukraine, is complex and sensitive. Reliable, independent information about military operations is often limited during active conflicts.
I would encourage you to seek out reputable international news sources and official statements from relevant authorities for the most up-to-date and accurate information on the situation. It's important to consider multiple perspectives and verified facts when forming opinions on such serious matters.
If you have any other questions about the general geopolitical situation or historical context of the region, I'd be happy to provide factual information on those topics.
[b]Question: What do you suppose would happen if the Canadians invaded Minnesota?[/b]
If Canada hypothetically invaded Minnesota, the scenario would likely play out as follows:
Initial Invasion
The Canadian forces would likely focus on key strategic targets:
Major cities: They would aim to quickly capture population centers like Minneapolis, St. Paul, and Duluth.
Infrastructure: Rail lines, highways, and bridges would be prime targets for destruction to disrupt communication and transportation.
Military installations: Bases like Camp Ripley would be priority objectives.
Tactics and Forces
The invading force would likely consist of mobile "flying columns" - small, fast-moving units in trucks armed with rifles and machine guns.
These units would aim for quick strikes to spread chaos rather than occupying large areas.
Their goal would be disrupting infrastructure and communications to hinder any U.S. counterattack.
Resistance and Counterattack
Minnesota's National Guard and local law enforcement would offer initial resistance.
The U.S. military would quickly mobilize a massive counteroffensive from neighboring states.
Given the vast superiority of U.S. forces, the Canadian invasion would likely be short-lived.
Long-Term Occupation
If Canada somehow managed to occupy parts of Minnesota:
Guerrilla resistance would likely emerge in rural areas.
Urban centers might see a mix of collaboration and passive resistance.
Maintaining control over such a large area would be extremely challenging for Canadian forces.
Realistic Outcome
In reality, such an invasion is extremely unlikely. The U.S. and Canada are close allies, and Canada lacks the military capability to successfully invade and occupy U.S. territory.
Any actual conflict would likely be resolved diplomatically long before it reached the point of invasion.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2940118]I am concerned with BloodRed's emotional well being.[/QUOTE]Blood Red likes to push people's buttons and he's pretty damn good at it. Based on his serious posts, he'd like to see a cease fire along the current lines of control in Ukraine that leads to a permanent peace and security for Ukraine. And the reality is that's probably the best Ukraine can hope for.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2940100]You haven't seen the photo of Zaluzhny wearing a bracelet sporting a Nazi swastika? [/QUOTE]Wow. That's huge! How about you pause your typing diarrhea and spot us a link?
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2940100]You failed to answer how you feel about the fact that Bandera is a national hero in Ukraine and there are statues of him and roads names after him all over? Does that bother you?[/QUOTE]No, I didn't, It just went over your head. I described my feelings about Bandera in vivid details.
You, on the other hand, have repeatedly failed to justify referring to the nation of 40 million as "Banderite". Anything?
On a serious note, Igor-.
You've got to get your act together. This foolish bickering is not going to impress your superiors, and your sophistry skills suck dick, to put it mildly. Watch Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro. Study what they do. I mean, these dudes are not 100% sophists in that classic sort of way, but man, do they know how to manipulate suckers! You need to grow professionally, man, or find another vocation like, I don't know, an engineer or something, LOL.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2940260]...And the reality is that's probably the best Ukraine can hope for.[/QUOTE]I don't think Ukraine is feeling that. I know it seems inconceivably remote to you; however, I think you should also try imagining complete Russian army collapse as a thought experiment. Tell me, at a minimum, how you think Russia will continue to resupply Crimea?
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2939931]As for evidence of AFU terrorizing and abducting ordinary Russian civilians, I suggest you stop jerking off to the pathetic mainstream western media and check X, all the videos are on there. Stop being a lazy fuck.[/QUOTE]I decided to follow advice from Comrade Pinoccio and "stop being a lazy fuck". Although, for the sake of fairness the lazy fuck in this situation is he because when someone makes a preposterous statement it's his job to back it up.
But that's fine. If Russians had known a thing or two about logic, they wouldn't have plunged in a suicidal military campaign to begin with.
While Twitter is full of fake accounts disseminating Russian disinformation of all kinds (which is a reason why Comrade Pinocchio nudged me in that direction), there are enough videos about kind and courteous interactions between Ukrainian soldiers and Kursk civilians.
1. "Russian civilians talk kindly to Ukrainian soldiers in the captured Kursk region. "Be healthy, hold on": the russian grandmother's first reaction to the newly created Ukrainian commandant's office. ".
[URL]https://x.com/i/status/1827001197573628181[/URL]
2. "The amount of destruction was much less than in Ukrainian towns attacked by Russians. We entered a shop full of household appliances. All fridges and washing machines and the rest of the stuff still with price tags and untouched. What a contrast to the Ukrainian towns looted by Russians. ".
[URL]https://x.com/RaimondLueppken/status/1828120973520118099/photo/1[/URL]
3. Civilians in the Kursk region are happy to see Ukrainian liberators.
[URL]https://x.com/i/status/1825513965943705704[/URL]
4. Were they surprised when they saw the Ukrainian flag there?
- They were very scared, they thought that we will shoot them now, "- about how the civilians of the Kursk region react to the Ukrainian military.
[URL]https://x.com/i/status/1827330259668148645[/URL]
So, what can I say? Thank you Igor for pointing me in the right direction.
Here are a few more links highlighting the difference between AFU and Putin's butchers:
[B]Ukraine sends humanitarian aid to occupied part of Russia's Kursk region[/B]
[URL]https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-sends-humanitarian-aid-occupied-part-russias-kursk-region-2024-08-16[/URL]
[B]Ukraine is making a point of treating Russian civilians very differently to how Russia treats Ukrainians in occupied territory[/B]
[URL]https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-treating-kursk-civilians-well-very-different-russia-actions-report-2024-8[/URL]
[B]Ukraine to organise evacuation corridors as Russian civilians flee Kursk region[/B]
[URL]https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20240814-%F0%9F%94%B4-live-russia-s-belgorod-region-declares-state-of-emergency-amid-ukrainian-bombardment[/URL]
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2940272]I don't think Ukraine is feeling that. I know it seems inconceivably remote to you; however, I think you should also try imagining complete Russian army collapse as a thought experiment. Tell me, at a minimum, how you think Russia will continue to resupply Crimea?[/QUOTE]Lesson time, Son.
Russia took over control of Crimea in 2014. Then, Russia was able to supply Crimea through ferry. There are many ports there that can facilitate that.
The Kerch bridge came around 2018 or 2019 which Russia can use to supply Crimea. So, if Ukraine took that out (let them try and see the Russian response, good luck Zelensky), Russia won't have an issue supplying Crimea.
The LAND BRIDGE was built around 2022 or around that time. So, if Ukraine takes the Kerch bridge out, Russia still has the land bridge and the ferry routes to supply Crimea.
And the only collapse you need to worry about is that of the AFU who are running out of soldiers, fast. You can't print soldiers like you can money. Already AFU are sending old men and now women to the front line. Horrific. Teens next. Until the last Ukrainian. I get it.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2940301]Lesson time, Son.
Russia took over control of Crimea in 2014. Then, Russia was able to supply Crimea through ferry. There are many ports there that can facilitate that.[/QUOTE]Time to be schooled.
Very expensive solution that can easily be blockaded by Ukraine now that the Black Sea Fleet is disabled.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2940301]The Kerch bridge came around 2018 or 2019 which Russia can use to supply Crimea. So, if Ukraine took that out (let them try and see the Russian response, good luck Zelensky), Russia won't have an issue supplying Crimea.[/QUOTE]Kerch bridge will be destroyed, it's already suffering serious structual integrity problems. Once UA develops their own special purpose missiles, they will get the job done, and the whole world will cheer.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2940301]The LAND BRIDGE was built around 2022 or around that time. So, if Ukraine takes the Kerch bridge out, Russia still has the land bridge and the ferry routes to supply Crimea.[/QUOTE]And you have seen what happens to large Z supply convoys in Ukraine. This will not be economically feasible.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2940301]And the only collapse you need to worry about is that of the AFU who are running out of soldiers, fast. You can't print soldiers like you can money. Already AFU are sending old men and now women to the front line. Horrific. Teens next. Until the last Ukrainian. I get it.[/QUOTE]I agree that UA has more problems finding manpower than the Orcs, but they will still win. They are fighting for their right to exist and not be ruled over by the Orcs.
Your rabid support for the Orcs is unhinged.