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[QUOTE=Tiny12;2941418]Why would he write negatively about the Russian army if he were a propagandist? He was writing and talking to me, not posting on a message board.[/QUOTE]You are the propagandist. You are posting or maybe "reposting" heavy handed lies and propaganda to this forum. The "event" your "friend" described to you is an invention.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2941437]You are the propagandist. You are posting or maybe "reposting" heavy handed lies and propaganda to this forum. The "event" your "friend" described to you is an invention.[/QUOTE]Tiny12 is not a propagandist, at least not in the traditional sense of the word. He's very active with long-winded posts in American Politics and this section. Russian trolls are not like that. They're not well-paid and lazy in general. They don't tend to go above and beyond.
Tiny12 rather belongs to a widely diverse group of people from all walks of life, who've been described by KGB / FSB as "useful idiots". During the Cold War, they used to be Communist sympathizers, but nowadays they're disillusioned Russophiles who believe that Russia holds some kind of a magic-light alternative to the Western civilization. Whatever their motivation is, they end up doing even more damage than bona-fide Russian "propacondoms", IMHO.
Of course, his "colleague" from this particular exchange is totally a Russian propagandist who's playing him like a flute. That colleague claimed that in Ukraine-governed parts of Donbas people aren't allowed to speak Russian. That's so overboard, it would be funny unless the 'language oppression" libel weren't used by the Russians to carry a genocidal war.
Here is an excellent and, more importantly, concise article from The Hill.
[URL]https://thehill.com/opinion/4855763-russia-ukraine-information-war/[/URL]
[B]Russia ramps up its information war against Ukraine, aiming to weaken Western support [/B]
[QUOTE]Russia is intensifying its information war against Ukraine just as its military losses soar and Ukrainian forces brazenly occupy Russian territories.
Western governments ignore these psychological operations, aimed at American and European audiences, at their peril. Their impact can weaken political, military and economic support for Kyiv just at a time when the war appears to be turning against Moscow.
Russia uses various methods to affect public opinion in the West. Financial contributions and media support help political parties and movements that favor Moscow. Propaganda and disinformation are aimed at leftists and rightists, populists and progressives, and ethnic majorities and minorities to distort reality and exacerbate divisions in Western societies.
Traditional media and social networks are involved through fake accounts, bots and trolls. Cyber hacking also interferes with Western elections, leaks confidential information and attacks critical infrastructure in targeted states.
Russian operatives have developed public organizations, NGOs and even churches to spread falsehoods that Moscows war against Ukraine was a necessary response to NATO provocations. In June 2023, French authorities discovered a large-scale disinformation campaign that included fake websites that simulated French media and government sites. The goal was to disseminate fake news directed against Ukraine.
In March 2024, the Kremlin accused Ukraine of involvement in the terrorist attack in the Krocus City Hall in Moscow. Anti-Ukrainian messages are also promoted in Russian outlets by favorably disposed Russian experts from universities, think tanks and the media. Pro-Russian Telegram channels and the Sputnik News Agency also create propaganda channels on platforms such as TikTok and YouTube.
Even Ukraines media have been infiltrated by pro-Moscow operatives. Before Russias annexation of Crimea in 2014, several branches of Russian media included outlets in Ukraine, such as RIA Novosti, Izvestia and Komsomolskaya Pravda. Some were closed and criminal proceedings were initiated against others, while a few continued their anti-Ukrainian disinformation work and suspected Russian subversion.
Several outlets formally cut their links with Russia, such as RBC-Ukraine, one of the countrys largest and most influential news agencies, but questions remain over its ownership and connections. Recent investigations have revealed that the ultimate owner of RBC-Ukraine is itself an anonymously owned offshore company in the British Virgin Islands, Thornley Investment LTD, which in the past might have been affiliated with a sister media outlet, RBC-Russia.
Following Russias full-scale invasion of Ukraine, the editorial team of RBC-Ukraine tried to pre-empt accusations about its Kremlin connections by publishing articles denouncing well-known personalities and companies in Ukraine as insufficiently patriotic and having secret ties with Moscow. But this looks like camouflage for its own opaque ownership structure.
Moscow-linked outlets are involved in purveying fake stories to discredit the Ukrainian government. One recent example that circulated widely in the West claimed that Olena Zelenska, President Volodymyr Zelenskys wife, purchased a $4.4 million Bugatti sports car with American taxpayer dollars. This fake report, which first appeared on an Instagram post, was fully debunked by the car manufacturer, who filed a criminal complaint for forgery and defamation.
The goal of such disinformation was to undercut U.S. support in arming Ukraine by painting the government in Kyiv as irredeemably corrupt. Although official corruption remains a persistent problem in some of Ukraines institutions, the current authorities are taking a tougher approach than all previous administrations and have sought American assistance to fight corruption.
As Ukraine regains the initiative in the war with increasing volumes of Western weapons, domestically produced missiles and drones, and fresh recruits, Kremlin propaganda is ramping up its information offensive. The aim is to promote disarray among Western leaders, limit assistance to Ukraine and push Kyiv toward a ceasefire in which it surrenders its occupied territories and abandons the areas it has seized inside Russia.
Amid an existential war against an imperialist aggressor, no part of the Ukrainian media should be permitted to maintain business links with Moscow and spread narratives scripted in the Kremlin.
Janusz Bugajski is a Senior Fellow at the Jamestown Foundation in Washington, D.C. His most recent book is Failed State: A Guide to Russias Rupture.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2941280]I can see this is emotionally very difficult for you. It is impossible to recognize when you're in, and a victim of, a religion or a cult until there is a catastrophic event that forces you awake. For eighty years the Russians have very effectively created the self actualizing myth about themselves. Russia can never be defeated in battle. [/QUOTE]This is an excellent analysis, but I'll argue that they've been at it much longer than 80 years. That "never-defeated" myth was circulated right before the 19th century Crimean War (in which Russia was defeated), 1905 Russo-Japanese war (in which Russia was defeated), The WW1 (in which Russia was defeated yet again with the most catastrophic consequences). The same delusion was flying high before the 1940 Winter War (in which Russia was thoroughly humiliated by tiny Finland) and the WW2 (in which Russia was ALMOST defeated and would've been if not for the unprecedented military and material support from the Land Lease). Of course, after Russia emerged victorious from the WW2, their extreme arrogance rebounded quite nicely, up until their defeats in the Afghan War and the First Chechnya War.
Russia has a very long history of self-delusion, as we can see, and it never ever learns.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2941437]You are the propagandist. You are posting or maybe "reposting" heavy handed lies and propaganda to this forum. The "event" your "friend" described to you is an invention.[/QUOTE]The "event" is consistent with reports from the press and NGO's before it became politically incorrect to criticize Ukraine:
[URL]https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/tortured-and-a-kidney-lost-life-in-ukraine-s-illegal-secret-prisons/story-2lhm82qnBLniFYhwkFIRbK.html[/URL]
[URL]https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/03/19/ukraine-justice-needed-former-secret-prison-detainees[/URL]
[URL]https://www.thetimes.com/world/article/kiev-allows-torture-and-runs-secret-jails-says-un-vwlcrpsjn[/URL]
[URL]https://www.voanews.com/a/watchdogs-civilians-detained-tortured-in-ukraine/3428561.html[/URL]
[URL]https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/29/human-rights-groups-sound-alarm-on-secret-detentions-in-ukraine/[/URL]
[URL]https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/eur50/4455/2016/en/[/URL]
Yeah, Russia may have kicked this off, but Ukraine's treatment of civilians in the eastern part of the country hasn't been anything to brag about either. Undoubtedly some people in the Donbas who were publicly pro-Russian had a difficult time with the Ukrainian authorities and vice versa.
I'm just repeating what was passed on to me. And I believe it.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2941321]What are you talking about?
Russians have attacked civilians, tortured soldiers, raped the populace and kidnapped the children. The orcs haven't had a democratic election in decades and you talk about Ukrainians with absolutely no evidence, and on top accuse others of lacking debate skills?
There is no debating someone who accuses one side of atrocities, yet is completely blind to the exponentially worse things that his own paymasters are doing.
All of your talk here is completely disingenuous and trolling. Look within and take some time to reflect.[/QUOTE]First of all, this is a war, a savage, brutal needless war that should have never taken place. I'm sure the Russians have committed atrocities and war crimes, just like the AFU have. And I condemn both. So for you to say I condone Russian war crimes is completely false.
As for the corrupt actor, his term expired earlier this year. He has run away from holding elections like the coward that he is. Countries have held elections during war time, so don't give me that argument. And I have never praised Russia for being a shining democracy either.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2941400]The Kursk invasion is clearly unnerving to Russian propagandists.[/QUOTE]You have zero understanding about what is happening on the battlefield. Stick to punting. And if you get the chance, pay attention to what is happening in Donetsk. And you might want to read this article from the BBC, which is an extremely dishonest pro Ukrainian 'news' source.
I'm not the kind of guy to say I told you so, but I told you so!
[URL]https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c984g10e22lo[/URL]
Critics in Kyiv fear that the country's military has made a serious miscalculation.
By sending troops into Kursk instead of reinforcing the eastern frontline, the military has left Pokrovsk and other important Ukrainian towns exposed, these critics say.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2941489]You have zero understanding about what is happening on the battlefield. Stick to punting. And if you get the chance...[/QUOTE]Cognitive dissonance is typically experienced as psychological stress. That's what you are experiencing. Your deep, long held belief / faith in the might and superiority of the Russian army is distressingly challenged by the invasion of Kursk oblast. I mean, obviously, the Russian cause is just! The Russian army is mighty and indomitable! How can it be that these inferior Ukranians have been be on sacred Russian soil for a month? Why haven't they been humiliated and expelled?
These internal inconsistencies cause you stress. Hence, you have to create narratives to reduce the internal pain. It may comfort you that this phenomenon, cognitive dissonance, has been well understood for almost 70 years. As I wrote previously, the best short term therapy is probably deep breathing...not much else you can do that will alleviate your pain.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2941495]Cognitive dissonance is typically experienced as psychological stress. That's what you are experiencing. Your deep, long held belief / faith in the might and superiority of the Russian army is distressingly challenged by the invasion of Kursk oblast. I mean, obviously, the Russian cause is just! The Russian army is mighty and indomitable! How can it be that these inferior Ukranians have been be on sacred Russian soil for a month? Why haven't they been humiliated and expelled?
These internal inconsistencies cause you stress. Hence, you have to create narratives to reduce the internal pain. It may comfort you that this phenomenon, cognitive dissonance, has been well understood for almost 70 years. As I wrote previously, the best short term therapy is probably deep breathing...not much else you can do that will alleviate your pain.[/QUOTE]You have zero understanding of what is going on at the battlefields and that's why you post nonsense. Stick to punting. The events on the battlefield will unfold on their own and the reality will be before everyone in the future, no one has to take my word or anyone else's for that matter.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2941488]As for the corrupt actor, his term expired earlier this year. He has run away from holding elections like the coward that he is. Countries have held elections during war time, so don't give me that argument. And I have never praised Russia for being a shining democracy either.[/QUOTE]Again, dodging the reality of the Orc regime and focusing on UA.
You can't talk about democracy when you haven't experienced it.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2941515]You have zero understanding of what is going on at the battlefields and that's why you post nonsense. Stick to punting. The events on the battlefield will unfold on their own and the reality will be before everyone in the future, no one has to take my word or anyone else's for that matter.[/QUOTE]Sorry, I was just trying to help you through this. I hope you feel better.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2941610]Again, dodging the reality of the Orc regime and focusing on UA.
You can't talk about democracy when you haven't experienced it.[/QUOTE]I didn't talk about democracy, you did. Fact of the matter is that Ukraine isn't the shining example of democracy that it claims to be, it is anything but that.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2941694]I didn't talk about democracy, you did. Fact of the matter is that Ukraine isn't the shining example of democracy that it claims to be, it is anything but that.[/QUOTE]You are constantly harping on about the current political situation in Ukraine, which is in a state of war, I'll remind you that the European democracies didn't have elections during wartime either, for the exact same reasons. Meanwhile you hold up the Orcs are paragons of reasonableness. Deal with your own hypocrisy first before weighing in here.
Completely unhinged.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2941776]You are constantly harping on about the current political situation in Ukraine, which is in a state of war, I'll remind you that the European democracies didn't have elections during wartime either, for the exact same reasons. Meanwhile you hold up the Orcs are paragons of reasonableness. Deal with your own hypocrisy first before weighing in here.
Completely unhinged.[/QUOTE]You obviously are unaware of the fact that many countries have held elections while at war.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2941837]You obviously are unaware of the fact that many countries have held elections while at war.[/QUOTE]Who are these countries and when did they do it?
UK didn't have elections during WW2 for example, and for good reason.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2941837]You obviously are unaware of the fact that many countries have held elections while at war.[/QUOTE]Why don't you name countries that have gone through general elections while the enemy troops were occupying huge chunks of their territory?