Stupid Shit in Kyiv

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2944976]It's the only realistic plan. You can keep chasing a fantasy and in the process be OK with tens of thousands of more Ukrainians dying. What a sick mindset.[/QUOTE]Did you do your one year minimum military service?

My prediction, Trump won't become the next POTUS. We will not accept any demilitarized zone or guarantees of neutrality. The aspirational goal is the unification of both countries. It is the people who will achieve this goal as they won in the historical past. When the US stops supplying the junta it would take 2 to 3 months for peace to settle. The US can enter into a direct agreement with Russia on a broader security. This way the balance will be restored. The alternative, and I'm pessimistic overall, is going to be an escalation which can lead to a nuclear conflict.

[QUOTE=Questner;2945007]My prediction, Trump won't become the next POTUS. We will not accept any demilitarized zone or guarantees of neutrality. The aspirational goal is the unification of both countries. It is the people who will achieve this goal as they won in the historical past. When the US stops supplying the junta it would take 2 to 3 months for peace to settle. The US can enter into a direct agreement with Russia on a broader security. This way the balance will be restored. The alternative, and I'm pessimistic overall, is going to be an escalation which can lead to a nuclear conflict.[/QUOTE]I was actually a bit surprised that Trump's plan floated by Vance was as per my prediction pretty much. If USA stops supplying Ukraine with arms, the war will end quickly no doubt.

Let's say Harris wins and the USA keeps supplying arms and money to Ukraine. It still won't change the final outcome. Ukraine will run out of soldiers and weapons eventually. Russia will keep taking more territory and continue to wreck Ukraine. What will be left will be a rump, dysfunctional state which will never ever join NATO. So the end result will be the same. A frozen conflict and Ukraine destroyed. So better to make some sort of peace and save what is left. It's the logical and humane thing to do.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2945115]... It's the logical and humane thing to do.[/QUOTE]The logical and humane outcome is for Russia to sue for peace, withdraw to the 1992 borders and to initiate reparations.

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2945140]The logical and humane outcome is for Russia to sue for peace, withdraw to the 1992 borders and to initiate reparations.[/QUOTE]This is the real world, not some fantasy world. In the real world, that's not how things work. The peace proposal presented by Vance is realistic. I get it that for Ukraine it will be very, very painful to accept or even consider, but that's the harsh reality.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2945146]This is the real world, not some fantasy world. In the real world, that's not how things work. The peace proposal presented by Vance is realistic. I get it that for Ukraine it will be very, very painful to accept or even consider, but that's the harsh reality.[/QUOTE]Giving Putin everything he wants and waving the white flag is not an outcome that will lead to long term peace. Long term peace will only come if Russia is defeated.

[QUOTE=VinDici;2945170]Giving Putin everything he wants and waving the white flag is not an outcome that will lead to long term peace. Long term peace will only come if Russia is defeated.[/QUOTE]You can keep dreaming. Meanwhile, Ukraine will cede territory to Russia and there will be an ugly peace similar to the 2 Koreas.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2945115]I was actually a bit surprised that Trump's plan floated by Vance was as per my prediction pretty much. If USA stops supplying Ukraine with arms, the war will end quickly no doubt.

Let's say Harris wins and the USA keeps supplying arms and money to Ukraine. It still won't change the final outcome. Ukraine will run out of soldiers and weapons eventually. Russia will keep taking more territory and continue to wreck Ukraine. What will be left will be a rump, dysfunctional state which will never ever join NATO. So the end result will be the same. A frozen conflict and Ukraine destroyed. So better to make some sort of peace and save what is left. It's the logical and humane thing to do.[/QUOTE]The outcome of the elections is irrelevant. Significant number of Russians don't want to further unify with Ukraine. Political leadership publicly at the moment defines the plans as per SMO (which may change soon). Military leadership wants complete control over the territory (as myself). We don't want anything to be frozen or any non functional state, but open borders and peace moving forward.

No EU, no agreements between Ukraine and other NATO members, no joining NATO. We can mobilize, win over the elites and change the government or enter into direct conflict with NATO. I don't know details on negotiations or political plans, so I remain pessimistic, as it will take tenfold to achieve even minimal goals of the SMO.

Someday we have to live together in peace (and the wounds of the conflict are going to last for 3 generations) - this sentence to be repeated each time any step further is contemplated; everything else is a foreign narrative imposed in media.

[QUOTE=Questner;2945255]Someday we have to live together in peace (and the wounds of the conflict are going to last for 3 generations) - this sentence to be repeated each time any step further is contemplated; everything else is a foreign narrative imposed in media.[/QUOTE]They made Shias and Sunnis fight in the middle east. And here they succeeded in making fellow ethnic Slavs fight each other.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2945385]They made Shias and Sunnis fight in the middle east. And here they succeeded in making fellow ethnic Slavs fight each other.[/QUOTE]Who are "they"?

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2945410]Who are "they"?[/QUOTE]You're not terribly bright or well informed, so I shall gladly help you out here. They is NATO / the collective west. They also set the precedent of changing borders by force in Europe.

[QUOTE=BloodRed;2945470]You're not terribly bright or well informed, so I shall gladly help you out here. They is NATO / the collective west. They also set the precedent of changing borders by force in Europe.[/QUOTE]Can you provide an example of NATO's forcible changes of borders? Would that be the annexation of Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia?

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2945140]The logical and humane outcome is for Russia to sue for peace, withdraw to the 1992 borders and to initiate reparations.[/QUOTE]Humane, 100% of course. Logical, for Russia? Couldn't be more illogical to sacrifice as much as Russia did and get nothing in return only to pay humiliating and economy crushing reparations. Russia may be a war monger and a bully, but there not as stupid as media wants you to believe. They are in it for the long haul and looks like NATO and USA will continue to pay the bill.

My question for anyone who wants to answer is this, if Ukraine loses does USA get paid back for all the weapons we sold them? As an American, do I get those tax dollars back some how?

[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2945482]Can you provide an example of NATO's forcible changes of borders? Would that be the annexation of Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia?[/QUOTE]Sure I can, Son. Pay attention as you are getting a free lesson in history, courtesy of Blood Red.

NATO intervened in Yugoslavia in 1999, savagely bombed the country and its critical infrastructure, killed many innocent Serbian civilians and carved out Kosovo from the Serbian heartland illegally. This was never accepted by Serbia and many other countries. So, the precedent of changing borders by force in Europe was set by NATO. You reap what you sow. I hope you learned something today, Son.