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[QUOTE=Goatscrot;1730136]Spot on. That is why you are seeing fewer and fewer Westerners in BKK and Patters. Most folks have far less disposable income than they did pre-08 crash.[/QUOTE]Disposable incomes in the developed world among those likely to travel have not fallen but have not grown as fasti in recent years. Put crudely, people are not get better off as fast as they used to.
We can all speculate whether there is more disposable income or not. Some have more and some have less. What you haven't accounted for is a guy like me that lost half my of net worth and 3/4 of my disposable income and said what the fuck! Let's use some of what I have left to monger with. Now I have only been at it in Thailand and Philippines the past 2 years but I will tell you that I have made up for 15 years worth if you count a visit per year and I am not overpaying either.
Imo it is very hard to say if lower disposable income has much effect. In my case I have less income but budgeted more for this.
[QUOTE=NattyBumpo;1729525]If you can find quality girls in your home market for 3 k ST then I advise you to stay where you are. For some reason, perhaps just my personal taste, I don't believe this price point is real, not for quality anyway.
So as prices continue to rise across the board, I am waiting for aggregate demand to drop, but it has not so far. In 5 years I expect prices will be significantly higher than they are now. I hope I am wrong. Let's wait and see. This is a very interesting Economic phenomenon.[/QUOTE]Natty, amidst the endless plethora of articles about price and quality, yours is the best analysis I have read.
At the risk of sounding embarrassingly sycophantic, the quality of your stuff is always good, and very helpful. Not just girl-related, but eg food (I had a great meal at the MK in Ekkamai because you had written about it). I love reading the travelogues.
Police arrests streetwalkers: [URL]http://www.stickboybangkok.com/news/over-100-street-prostitutes-arrested-in-bangkok/[/URL].
[QUOTE=Goatscrot;1729846]I would say you can still find amazing gals for less money in Jakarta. Mainly because there are very few tourists there. [/QUOTE]I am sure you can, but it is getting harder and harder because Jakarta prices keep rising. I have only been to Jakarta 2 times so far and I am very impressed with the girls I met here. I plan to up the ante and stay for 2 weeks on my next Asian trip. So far on my two previous trips I have been slowly working my way down the food chain eg starting out at the top bordellos and bars like Alexis, Malioboro, and CJ's. The girls have been amazing, both in terms of their looks and sexual appetites, but they are very expensive, between $100 and $190 for ST and / or LT depending on the venue and the girl. Eventually I plan to tear myself away from the high priced places and check out the middle tier places. I think it will become harder to find the right girl at these venues. I hope I am wrong.
I think that you are right, however, that Jakarta girls seem less jaded and are more enthusiastic than BKK girls. The reason might very well be because they are exposed to less tourists. But there is a reason less tourists come to Jakarta. Take away the girls and the city does not have that much to offer the average tourist. It pales in comparison to BKK on the tourist scale. Personally I find Jakarta fairly friendly and interesting and the food is good, but there is no way I would consider living here for an extended period of time even though I am sure I could find very good modern accommodations at a reasonable price. Two weeks at a time is about all I could take of this huge megalopolis.
I know you are getting jaded with BKK, but I don't think there is any other city in Asia that hits all high notes like BKK does. BKK is the only city where I would seriously think about setting up base camp and renting a condo long term. Singapore is too expensive and too quiet. Jakarta, as I said above, is too big and at the same time it lacks enough diversions to keep me from becoming very bored and losing my mind. Manila, forgetaboutit, it is too poor, too dangerous, and too un-cultural (boring) aside from the girls. Macau is too expensive and again there are not enough diversions thus it would be very boring in the long term. What's left: Pattaya? I would go nuts there. It is a tourist town without a quality beach. Phnom Penh? Possibly, I would have to give Phnom a 6 month trial to see if it is a feasible city for me. It has some attributes I like, mainly that it is not modern high rise BKK and yet Phnom possesses an interesting culture and vibe. But BKK, no matter how much better it was 15 to 20 years ago, remains the #1 place to reside long term unless one has a live in Asian girlfriend and you are willing to do without most of the extracurricular activities (massage parlors and GoGo's) BKK has. With a live in GF, southern Thailand immediately becomes viable. Phuket and Ko Samui are obvious choices because they still offer up some P4 P diversion on the side. The smaller islands like Ko Lipe are the nicest, but they have next to zero extracurriculars. I will probably end up down there somewhere in the blue Andaman Sea after I hang up my gun belt and retire from punting. But I will in my 80's when that happens.
[QUOTE=Goatscrot;1729766]
Interesting you speak of Macau. The saunas in Macau are expensive, but you get a great looking gal who is trained to provide excellent service. Something I certainly don't mind paying top dollar for. My gripe is that in most cases in BKK you are paying far more than you did for less. Price wise soapies and oilies have been consistent. It has been 2300 Baht for two hours since the days of Baron's back in '04. Soapies are a bit more but not much. GoGo and FL prices are the ones that have changes radically.[/QUOTE]Macau prices are really high. Really high. A beautiful Chinese Sauna girl (model category) will run you $200 to $285 US dollars. No, I take that back. Rio and East Spa have invented a new category: the "Japanese" girl. They really aren't Japanese, only part Japanese, mixed race, born and raised in China, but they wear Kimonos, LOL, and THEY ARE HOT! Their price is 3500 mop or $430 US dollars. I kid you not. That is tooooooooooo high for me even though on two separate occasions the "Japanese" girls that I saw in the lineup (showtime) were spectacular. And I don't use the word "spectacular very often to describe Asian working girls (9* IMHO). One time in Rio Spa, I saw an Asian customer select one of the "Japanese" girls. Lucky bastard! Ha Ha. He must have won some money in the casino and decided to treat himself to something special or his rich uncle just died and left him a fortune.
Anyway, Sauna sessions are usually very very good with whomever I choose; regular girl or model girl. The closest venue to this in BKK are the Soapies. Going back in my recollection 3 or 4 years, the sessions I had in Macau were usually just a little more memorable and outstanding than my BKK Soapie sessions. But in 2014, I had two girls in La Belle whom I enjoyed more. So La Belle and BKK won my 2014 gold medal. Then in spring 2015, Macau took back the gold. My two back to back sessions with Ting, a Chinese model in Rio Spa were amazing and in my top 3 of the year. They had better be. The Ting sessions cost me $285 each. But Rio did throw in free fresh watermelon juice and wonton chicken soup. A neck massage and pedicure was extra.
But getting back to my original train of thought; as much as I like the sexy Chinese sauna girls in Macau and amorous Indonesian girls in Jakarta, there is no way I would consider living in either city full time. All there is in these two towns is shagging and eating. The shagging and good eats are necessary for me, but not alone sufficient to make me want to rent a condo and spend a year there. 5 nights per year in Macau, two weeks at a stretch in Jakarta is enough for me. So that still leaves BKK as the best all around city in Asia to live in full time. I know you have had it rough living here all these years, but it is what it is.
[QUOTE=Natty Bumpo;1729525]If you can find quality girls in your home market for 3 k ST then I advise you to stay where you are. For some reason, perhaps just my personal taste, I don't believe this price point is real, not for quality anyway.
[/QUOTE]
Its been years since I lived in the States, but I very often got good looking young girls - 18-25 - for a hundred dollars short time. What made it a bit worse was that one risked getting caught by the police, not the quality or the price. In addition, I always found American girls far, far better in bed than Thai girls, both about oral skills and simply 'enjoying' the intercourse. The main thing that made Thailand better was the price, the 'legality' of the hobby, and the fact that the girls used to be slimmer on average. Nowadays I'm afraid the price advantage is gone, and the slimness advantage is being chipped away as well (mostly by the somewhat reduced prevalence of the recreational drugs which motivated the best girls, and kept them looking good).
[QUOTE=NattyBumpo;1730475] So that still leaves BKK as the best all around city in Asia to live in full time. I know you have had it rough living here all these years, but it is what it is.[/QUOTE]I would not argue with you there. I would never live in Jakarta or Macau. Nom P, loved it 15 years ago, now not so much. BKK is still the best food city on the planet and that is a huge draw. What would drive me away now? Really has nothing to do with the P4P scene. It is the crowds and the weather. BKK feels far more crowded than it did when I moved here. The traffic is awful, even when riding my motorbike. More than that though it is the heat. I am a weird one. I like the cold and dislike the heat. Even though I am from a hot place, TX, I have always been hot natured and am more comfortable at 6 C than I am 35 C. As I get older my that intolerance to heat just increases. The humidity is not so nice either. Northern Thailand will be an option at some point although CNX is traffic laden as well.
Personally I don't think the performance of Thai gals was ever in the league with most of the gals I have had in Jakarta or Batam for that matter. Great post by the way!
[QUOTE=Opebo;1730524]Its been years since I lived in the States, but I very often got good looking young girls - 18-25 - for a hundred dollars short time. What made it a bit worse was that one risked getting caught by the police, not the quality or the price. In addition, I always found American girls far, far better in bed than Thai girls, both about oral skills and simply 'enjoying' the intercourse. The main thing that made Thailand better was the price, the 'legality' of the hobby, and the fact that the girls used to be slimmer on average. Nowadays I'm afraid the price advantage is gone, and the slimness advantage is being chipped away as well (mostly by the somewhat reduced prevalence of the recreational drugs which motivated the best girls, and kept them looking good).[/QUOTE]We are on the same page. For me Thailand was about ease of availability, looks, volume, and price. Most gals in the US were far better than the ones I have had in Thailand. There are some gems, but they are few and far between. Most of those gems I have found in the oilies and with FLs they have been gals 30+.
[QUOTE=Goatscrot;1730593]We are on the same page. For me Thailand was about ease of availability, looks, volume, and price. Most gals in the US were far better than the ones I have had in Thailand. There are some gems, but they are few and far between. Most of those gems I have found in the oilies and with FLs they have been gals 30+.[/QUOTE]Yes I agree as well, I have been in Thailand for fifteen years and have had few that were good at sex. Great eye candy but not good in bed compared to women in OZ and New Zealand. I also feel that sex is a mind game between two people and the game starts very early on in the evening when you first meet up for say, dinner. Here in Thailand there is no mental build up its just physical. I miss the mind sex.
[QUOTE=Opebo;1730524]Its been years since I lived in the States, but I very often got good looking young girls - 18-25 - for a hundred dollars short time. What made it a bit worse was that one risked getting caught by the police, not the quality or the price.[/QUOTE]Yes; the underground effect caused by illegality carries a lot higher risk of negative consequences including; poor service, outright scams, outing, and arrest. I suppose there is a hint of thrill factor in there somewhere for some.
I have a married buddy who is a backpage website regular. He aims for $60 to $80 SS (short stay) 20 minute quick and dirty hookups which involve a quick BJ followed by quick boom-boom. Sounds like the ladies are in their mid 20's to late 30's, near average looks, and on the heavier side. He repeats with the better one's and that provides him some small familiarity advantages. Nothing in that scenario appeals to me but too each their own.
I also agree with you that the LOS P4 P advantages are narrowing on most fronts, but are still quite a bit better than most home markets.
SunLover.
[QUOTE=Milo12;1730598]Yes I agree as well, I have been in Thailand for fifteen years and have had few that were good at sex. Great eye candy but not good in bed compared to women in OZ and New Zealand. I also feel that sex is a mind game between two people and the game starts very early on in the evening when you first meet up for say, dinner. Here in Thailand there is no mental build up its just physical. I miss the mind sex.[/QUOTE]Sadly there is just very little psychological interplay with most of the gals here. I have found more with Indo gals. Only thing I can think if is they are from a monotheistic culture with a very black and white view to things. Sex outside of marriage is "dirty" therefore far more fun.
[QUOTE=Goatscrot;1730785]Sadly there is just very little psychological interplay with most of the gals here. I have found more with Indo gals. Only thing I can think if is they are from a monotheistic culture with a very black and white view to things. Sex outside of marriage is "dirty" therefore far more fun.[/QUOTE]I don't think this is the reason.
As I've reported in other posts, starting about 12 years ago I spent the better part of four years living in Semarang and made numerous business with a little pleasure trips to Jakarta. I had a good bit of experience with young ladies in Jakarta, more with ladies in Semarang before eventually settled down with one young lady. My remarks are primarily about young ladies I got to know in Semarang. To a lesser extent they also apply to Jakarta. I say that because the ladies in Jakarta had far more contact with foreign men and were not as "unspoiled" as the young ladies in Semarang.
I found the Indonesians to the kindest and friendliest people I have ever met, even more so than the Thais. Many people I knew in Semarang who were from other countries in Southeast Asia shared my opinion. I met large numbers of young Javanese ladies who had left their villages for Semarang, seeking work and life in a large city. Many spoke at least some English and were intrigued with the thought of having sexual experiences with Caucasian men, who were few and far between and generally businessmen like myself. DFK, BJs and DATY were not part of their sexual repertoire, but they certainly knew how to fuck and enjoyed it immensely. They viewed sex as a pleasure that should be enjoyed, felt no guilt about having sex with a man they were not married to and didn't strongly associate sex with conception. This is because for some time the Indonesian government had aggressively promoted birth control and family planning. It was even openly discussed and promoted on television. "Only one child" was a phrase I heard repeatedly from the young Javanese ladies I knew.
Indonesia is an Islamic country, with Hindu, Buddhist and Christian minorities. If you ask Javanese about their religious beliefs they describe themselves as Muslims. I was an owner of a factory that employed a large number of people, mostly young women. I was required to provide a room for prayer. At most 5% of my employees answered the call to prayer, which was consistent with what I observed within the general population. When I had conversation with Javanese about their spiritual beliefs it was clear they had an animistic view of the world that predated their exposure to Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism. They were definitely not monotheists. They believed in a world filled with a host of spirits inhabiting rocks, plants, trees, and even occupying builds. For example, there was a large fascinating looking colonial era building in central Semarang that had been empty for decades. Everyone believed, for reasons never clearly explained to me, it was filled with evil spirits. Looks of horror would come across the faces of my Javanese friends when I suggested I would like to look inside of it, pointing out that it would be very easy to break into the building. A world filled with spirits, good and evil, was at the very core of their belief system.
So why were the young the young Javanese ladies I knew such good sexual partners? I think it was simply because they had no sexual hangups. Sex was a pleasure that was to be enjoyed. And once they got to know me I found the young ladies were open to trying new sexual experiences. We'd start with DFK and then progress to BBBJ and DATY. Once they discovered how pleasurable these were they became eager participants.
But getting back to my original train of thought; as much as I like the sexy Chinese sauna girls in Macau and amorous Indonesian girls in Jakarta, there is no way I would consider living in either city full time. All there is in these two towns is shagging and eating. The shagging and good eats are necessary for me, but not alone sufficient to make me want to rent a condo and spend a year there. 5 nights per year in Macau, two weeks at a stretch in Jakarta is enough for me. So that still leaves BKK as the best all around city in Asia to live in full time. I know you have had it rough living here all these years, but it is what it is. Snip.
What about Seoul, HCMC, Bali, Yangon, Colombo? There are so many possibilities out there. I live in Hawaii, the worlds best weather and cleanest environment. But there are real drawbacks. The cost of living is insane. I would think the same as Singapore. A small old house in Hawaii starts around $750,000.
But I have come to the same conclusion that South Thailand is the one of the best choices. I agree with you on all fronts. The availability of activity, food, culture and access to all areas in SEA is right here in South Thai without the stress of living in BKK. The people are friendly and always happy. Also must mention the medical excellence in Thailand. This is of concern as we age. I am only 68 so no worry for awhile.
Keep up the great writing your reports and you input are well received.
Aloha.
RL.
[QUOTE=Milo12;1730598]Yes I agree as well, I have been in Thailand for fifteen years and have had few that were good at sex. Great eye candy but not good in bed compared to women in OZ and New Zealand. I also feel that sex is a mind game between two people and the game starts very early on in the evening when you first meet up for say, dinner. Here in Thailand there is no mental build up its just physical. I miss the mind sex.[/QUOTE]
Heh heh, need one with a mind for that. Good luck finding it here.
But no, I kid, I think they have minds, its just that they're not interested in us or in anything outside of their narrow little world here - and that's as true of the 'prime minister' as the working girl.
[QUOTE=PaulKausch;1730812]I don't think this is the reason.
As I've reported in other posts, starting about 12 years ago I spent the better part of four years living in Semarang and made numerous business with a little pleasure trips to Jakarta. I had a good bit of experience with young ladies in Jakarta, more with ladies in Semarang before eventually settled down with one young lady. My remarks are primarily about young ladies I got to know in Semarang. To a lesser extent they also apply to Jakarta. I say that because the ladies in Jakarta had far more contact with foreign men and were not as "unspoiled" as the young ladies in Semarang.
I found the Indonesians to the kindest and friendliest people I have ever met, even more so than the Thais. Many people I knew in Semarang who were from other countries in Southeast Asia shared my opinion. I met large numbers of young Javanese ladies who had left their villages for Semarang, seeking work and life in a large city. Many spoke at least some English and were intrigued with the thought of having sexual experiences with Caucasian men, who were few and far between and generally businessmen like myself. DFK, BJs and DATY were not part of their sexual repertoire, but they certainly knew how to fuck and enjoyed it immensely. They viewed sex as a pleasure that should be enjoyed, felt no guilt about having sex with a man they were not married to and didn't strongly associate sex with conception. This is because for some time the Indonesian government had aggressively promoted birth control and family planning. It was even openly discussed and promoted on television. "Only one child" was a phrase I heard repeatedly from the young Javanese ladies I knew.
Indonesia is an Islamic country, with Hindu, Buddhist and Christian minorities. If you ask Javanese about their religious beliefs they describe themselves as Muslims. I was an owner of a factory that employed a large number of people, mostly young women. I was required to provide a room for prayer. At most 5% of my employees answered the call to prayer, which was consistent with what I observed within the general population. When I had conversation with Javanese about their spiritual beliefs it was clear they had an animistic view of the world that predated their exposure to Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism. They were definitely not monotheists. They believed in a world filled with a host of spirits inhabiting rocks, plants, trees, and even occupying builds. For example, there was a large fascinating looking colonial era building in central Semarang that had been empty for decades. Everyone believed, for reasons never clearly explained to me, it was filled with evil spirits. Looks of horror would come across the faces of my Javanese friends when I suggested I would like to look inside of it, pointing out that it would be very easy to break into the building. A world filled with spirits, good and evil, was at the very core of their belief system.
So why were the young the young Javanese ladies I knew such good sexual partners? I think it was simply because they had no sexual hangups. Sex was a pleasure that was to be enjoyed. And once they got to know me I found the young ladies were open to trying new sexual experiences. We'd start with DFK and then progress to BBBJ and DATY. Once they discovered how pleasurable these were they became eager participants.[/QUOTE]Interesting analysis Paul. I have found Indonesians a "breed apart" as well. Always enjoyed the company there. Too bad it is just not a place that I would want to live.
Truthfully I have not found that many Thais with sexual hangups and it seems to me that most do really enjoy that act as well. What I was speaking to specifically is the deep psychological interplay that you have with some Western girls, where they love to get inside your head sexually and twist at your most prurient thoughts and desires. I have yet to have a Thai gal "get" this. On the other hand, Indonesians seem to, as do many Viets and Chinese. I think it has to do a lot with Thais not being a very introspective people. On the one hand it makes Thai women easier to live with because they are not always trying to "find themselves. " But on the other hand it makes certain aspects of a relationship nigh on impossible.