Davao

Thanks for the info regarding bubbly prices -- ouch! I'll try to slip a couple of bottles of Charles Heidsieck blue label into my luggage.

I am toying with the idea of trying to ship 12/24 bottles of something more dispensable (Piper Sonoma) and declaring it as Apple Cider. Balikbayan (Box Brothers) has an X-mas special for air shipment -- $80 large; $90 jumbo delivered door to door.

I have a two hour layover in Manila, any duty free deals at the airport as an alternative?

Man, I'm getting so excited I am staring to drool.

Guys,

I don't want you guys all posting at once now. Monitoring this Forum is easy. I just Post or read GoodEnough's Posts. Not much more to it. i even got bored and began to read the regular Philippine Forum but quit after the Post by some guy who nailed a virgin and now she wnats to be made "intact" again. Sorry, but it is just too fucking much for me now. Better to spend my time with year end work, my own financial planning and Christmas shopping.

Rose in Davao dumped the Kid as her "cyber boyfriend" (some 50+ loser in maryland with more excuses for his inaction than George Bush) got angry with her for seeing the Kid in Davao. The 4 1/2 year "cyber relationship" is obviously more important than a real man. I guess the old proverb, "a dick in her hand is worth two in her 'cyber bush'" does not always apply.

For the newcomers to my Forum Rose is the yonger sister of Elaine whom I was fucking on a regular basis in early 2006. She mentioned then an ongoing cyber love with this guy in MD and GE and I convinced her to meet the Kid, my nephew in New York City. They met twice that year and seemed to enjoy each other's compnay (of course the Kid did not get laid).

The other Cyber Love that I worte about her in July concerned Lalaine, 41 with an awesome body and a pretty face. Not beautiful but really fucking easy to look at (GE met her), especaily nude. She gave me a few fine blowjobs and I fucked her frequently and on one occasion for nearly two hours. Lalaine hes Cyber Mike in Texas. A guy working for a car dealership with whom she has been having a cyber relationship (no cyber sex though) for 2 1/2 years. Mike is a controlling fuck, as he calls her (can set your clock by his calls) at exactly 10AM and 10Pm her time.

When she was busy fucking/blowing me one Monday morning she got "too involved" and missed Mike's 10AM call. He sent her hysterical texts (she showed them to me; guy has REAL problems) demanding she e-mail him immediately. She got dressed, did not bother to clean her pussy, and headed directly to the internet cafe to assure Mike he his her one and only man (what bullshit). As I mentioned, on a Satruday evening she was riding my dick for 2 hours and it got close to when Mike was to call. She began to rub my bals so i would cum inside her and then she headed off so as not to miss baby mike's 10PM checkup call (you can see immediately how EFFECTIVE Mike' system is).

Lalaine offered to "trade-uo" to a real man as opposed to a cyber wimp If I would agree. This was NOT in my Eternal Plans and with 21 y/o, gorgeous Cherryl (8.8 looks; 8.8 body), 21 y/o beauty Rema(9.0 looks; 9.3 body) and my Jen (9.5 looks; 9.3 body) a 41 y/o with a nice body and a great set of tits (7.5 looks;8.5 body) could not compete. I know it was unfair but Life is often unfair. I told her the sitaution was fine for me as it was and we could keep on fucking and her blowing on a regaular basis and Mike could keep making his 10:00AM and 10:00PM calls into Eternity.

Lalaine was not pleased and she must have confessed all (or a little) to Cyber Mike as her cellphone number was no good when I returned. I may see her again yet. If not, there are a few other women in Davao still. About 100,000 or so in the vicinity of D/T Davao.

Ok, so I'm a 2 days away from Davao, have this cold that won't go away, making my nose red and my voice sound like a mix between Fran Drescher and Walter Brennan. I am praying that I get better so when I say "lick my balls" the pinay will not die laughing. GE was kind enough to refer me to a doc, but tomorrow I fly to Manila with a "layover" until Friday when I fly to Davao. So I'll try to post something if I can sound man-like by Friday evening. On Saturday I guess I'm traveling to CDO, but first meeting with GE for a drink or two. It has been hell trying to get out of here and ship my stuff back to the US, but hopefully my newly rediscovered NYC anger mode will get things moving tomorrow before I go to the airport.

Steers and queers.

Achilles,

I'm happy to meet you for a drink, but I don't get back form Singapore until Saturday evening, which is far too late for you to travel to CDO. The bus trip from Davao to CDO takes about 7 hours and going at night, even if there are buses available, is not a good idea. The mountain roads are not lit outside of the towns, and the drivers cannot easily see the various (and multiple) obstructions in the dark. Take a bus that leaves Davao about nine which means you will travel entirely in the daylight hours. It's safer and, also important, you will see more, and the scenery is quite nice.

I really look forward to seeing "The Kid" again. It's been quite a while since I've hung out with him. He's easy to please, easygoing, and easy to be around.

To take off from DS' latest post, the number of cyber relationships between Filipinas and American men is amazing and probably growing. Though I can figure out the girls' motives, which are largely financial, I cannot figure out these guys who continuously send money, never intend to come to the Philippines, and get very little from these relationships other, I guess, than the feeling that they're helping to improve the lives of the women with whom they're corresponding. What few realize of course is that many if not most of these women have established similar "relationship" with other guys, each of whom is the "only" one for them. It never ceases to amaze me and it's something I guess I will never understand: how otherwise rational men can be so easily taken in.

GE

Tom raised a series of questions about Davao on the "other" Davao thread. I'm going to try to answer them here. This post, and my responses, are as follows:

Some newbie questions.

Hi.

I will be visiting Cebu and Davao City in September 2008. Probably spend 4 days in each. Received some very good advice on the Cebu forum, and would appreciate some info from you experts regarding Davao City.

Read about 23 pages on this forum, and have gained a lot of insight of Davao City.

1. Hotels:

I am on a hotel budget ($30. 00 max). I have limited my hotel choices to Hotel Galleria, Tower Inn, Las Casita or the Bogobo House Hotel.

Questions: Which of these hotels is the closest to Apo Hotel?

The first answer is avoid the Bogobo House. It's a hole. Ditto Tower Inn. DS has a wonderful story about his one night stay there several years ago and hopefully he will repeat it once he reads this post. That leaves you two choices. The answer is that Galleria and Las Casitas are probably equidistant from the Apo View but Las Casitas is probably the easiest walk. It will take you about 15 minutes to walk to the Apo View from there, or about 2 minutes in a taxi.

Is it within walking distance?

As above. Las Casitas is probably a 15 minute walk, and from Galleria, it might take you 20-25 minutes given that you will have to cross bigger, busier streets. The distance is approximately the same however.

Do any of these hotels have safety boxes in the room or lobby?

I've never stayed in either since I live in Davao and have a house there, but I'm sure both have safety boxes at least in the lobby. Not sure about safes in the room however.

2. Venue:

I read that the Venue is a disco/bar. I am in my early 50’s.

Question: Is the Venue strictly for the young crowd? Would I feel out of place?

You would not feel out of place, but it's probably not the best choice of pick up bars for you. You would be much better off, and would probably see many more women at Bar 183 or Swags, both of which are nicer than the Venue in any case. If you do go to the Venue compound, you can also try Bar 1 which is less noisy and less irritating than the Venue.

3. Beach:

Since there is nothing much to do during the day, I would like to spend an afternoon visiting a beach.

Well, there are actually several things to do during the day. You could go to the Eagle Farm, which is the Philippines first effort to preserve the endangered Philippine Eagle, which is a magnificent Bird. Then there's the Butterfly Farm, the Alligator Farm, and Eden, which displays flora from all over the country. Each of these trips will take almost a full day.

However, if you want to go to the beach, tell any taxi driver to take you to the boat for Paradise Beach. The boats leave about ever 15 minutes, cost about 15 Pesos, and the ride takes about ten minutes. You'll have a good time, and you can snorkel, swim or even dive right from the beach. It does get a bit crowded on week ends, so it's a good idea to get there around 10 in the morning. You can even stay over night in modest, but clean accommodations if you decide you like the place.

You could also go for lunch or dinner to Pearl Farm, but it's expensive and a longer ride with far fewer people. It's good however, if you hook up with a lady and want to have a nice, relaxing lunch in very pretty surroundings.

Question: What local beach could I ask the cab driver to take me within the Davao city limits?

Question: What local beach could I ask the cab driver to take me within the Davao city limits?

However, if you want to go to the beach, tell any taxi driver to take you to the boat for Paradise Beach. The boats leave about ever 15 minutes, cost about 15 Pesos, and the ride takes about ten minutes. You'll have a good time, and you can snorkel, swim or even dive right from the beach. It does get a bit crowded on week ends, so it's a good idea to get there around 10 in the morning. You can even stay over night in modest, but clean accommodations if you decide you like the place.

You could also go for lunch or dinner to Pearl Farm, but it's expensive and a longer ride with far fewer people. It's good however, if you hook up with a lady and want to have a nice, relaxing lunch in very pretty surroundings.

Although I am street smart (living in New York City), I would also like to visit Bonguyan beach. Would you advise a newbie to go there?

Stay away from this place would be my advice, unless you're with someone who knows the area and knows exactly where to go. This area of town attracts the street life and, though it's probably safe for you, trouble can arrive quickly and unexpectedly. The only reason to go there would be to pick up women and there are lots of safer, more attractive venues for this. Do not even think of going alone.

4. Victoria Mall and SM. Which of the 2 is your favorite?

SM hands down. Victoria is old, run down, and somewhat seedy and dark. SM is bright, clean, and new, and attracts a much nicer crowd. Victoria however, is much closer to where you will be staying. Victoria is on Bajada, which is also called JP Laurel, while SM is in Ecoland, and takes about 20-25 minutes by taxi.

5. What day/time is best to visit Ground Zero, the convenience store/bar when females maybe in abundance?

DS will doubtless comment on this as he's been there more recently than I. He thinks the best time for the nursing students is early in the evening--say about 7-9 or 10. After that, it's the street hookers and street crowd that takes over.

6. KTV.

When I hear of a KTV place (from my Thailand experiences), it reminds me of a venue where you are escorted to a room, given food snacks and a girl to sit and sometimes sing karaoke. If you want the girl, you are charged a separate price for takeout.

Question: Is the above setup similar in a Davao KTV? Or can one just walk in and choose a girl for takout? In HILLTOWN KTV, how much would I be expected to pay for a short-time?

Even before my wife, I never was a devotee of KTVs, and have only been to a couple here. It's the same set up as you describe, but I'm sure you could make an arrangement to pick a girl and leave. However, if you want to do that, you would be better off going to Hot Legs 1, 2, or 3 or Roman Plaza, paying the barfine and leaving with the girl. Remember that barfines are somewhat negotiable in Davao if you're patient.

7. How much should one expect to pay in a Brothel for a short-time encounter?

I don't know if any brothels in Davao. There are several casas, or houses with lots of girls, but they are for take out and not stay in. It's been a long while since I've done that, and I no longer am conversant with the price structure, but I imagine Php1,500-2,000 pesos for the whole night would do it.

8. Does the Moonlight club still exist?
Yes, but not in its former shape. It now includes several gay dancers, as well as a small number of take out women. I was there with my wife about a year ago and we didn't enjoy it at all. It used to be a civilized place with the best collection of blues and jazz music in town. Now, it's pretty much nothing. You would be much better or at any of the Hot Legs bars or at Roman Plaza. More women, more nudity, more fun.

9. What itinerary would you suggest a visitor of 4 days to embark upon meeting women for p4p? Street, clubs etc.

I suggest you think of P4P as an option to pursue if you cannot get a freebie, which is pretty easy to do in Davao. Try the malls and/or the beaches during the day, trying to set yourself up for the evening. If that doesn't work, try the nursing schools. If, by evening, you've not scored, then head to Ground Zero early in the evening, or even to O'Flannagans next to Ground Zero as it now features hookers. If you have no success at these places, head to Bar 183 or Someplace Else or Chicos (all within 3 minutes of each other) and try your luck. If, by midnight, you're getting impatient and still haven't hit, then try the Hot Legs Clubs. Hot Legs 3 is just around the corner from all these places and an easy and safe walk. Oh I forgot, you can also try an of the dozens of internet cafes during the day.

10. Just curious, Are there other means of transportation going from Cebu to Davao City (besides Air). Are Buses or Ferry’s available? .

Sure, but it's going to take you a long, long time. You can take a bus, then a boat ride, then another bus, and the whole thing will probably take 2 days. Or you could take a bus Zamboanga (24 hours) and then fly from there or take a boat from there (overnight). Best to take the 45 minute flight though. It's cheap and it's a hell of a lot more convenient.

Thank You.

Tom

Hope this helps.

GE

[size=-2][b][u]EDITOR'S NOTE[/u]:[/b] [blue]I certainly hope that the author or somebody else will post a link to this report in the Reports of Distinction thread. Please [url=http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/announcement-reportsofdistinction.php?]Click Here[/url] for more information.[/blue][/size]

GoodEnough,

Thanks for your help.

Tom

Guys,

GE asked me to respond to Posts made on the ancient Davao Board. This is the Board I came to in Oct 2003. There were twelve (yes 12) total posts there over three years. ALL saying DO NOT GO TO DAVAO. All by dickheads who I think never were in Davao ever. Funny how I had made two dozen Trips to Davao beginning in 1997 and did not realize it was a NO GO City. But then all I did in Davao City was meet gorgeous, young Davao women and fuck myself silly.

In any event I posted about how much fun I had in Davao and that I was worried about fucking myself to death. Shortly after, a guy calling himself GooDEnough wrote in about the places he was going for women, having just moved to Davao City. We met up Feb 1, 2004. Together we took the old Davao Board to 1500 posts and I added a few hundred photos there.

GE tells me some guy, lonely, disturbed at Christmas time is again insulting and ridiculing the two of us on the ancient Board. These sick fucks are not worth worrying about. The little dick is depressed now and has to try to stir up trouble. Lets ALL leave him to his FUCKING MISERY.

Last year at this time a little dick using a phony scottish accent came on the old Davao Board. He began first to make inquiries about Davao, admitting he had never been there. Quickly the piece of shit turned to attacking me to the extent of even ridiculing me about my relationship with Jen and my friendship with henny, both of whom I met in Davao a couple years ago.

Jen would never let this pathetic fool get within a thousand meters of her and Henny has little patience for losers. He tossed Freddy Kruger (read "Nightmare on Rizal Street" parts 1, 11, & 111 on old Board) out of his Restaurant in a "New York Heartbeat".

The guy caused so much trouble Jackson had to come into the old Davao Board and settle it. When there was an all out war there, this phony in a fake scottish accent just moved on to the Thailand Board and began the same shit. Someone told me he never travels and does this out of boredom and loneliness. FUCK HIM! I remember he caled me a "big gorilla" and said he was ready to fight me anytime. Anytime I make to it to starbucks in "Nowhere Town" midwestern USA.

Now to a serious matter here. I have some photos here of bona fied Davao Pussy. She wants to meet me in Makati when I arrive. I am not certain I should risk her actually flying there or "bailing out" on me. I will buy her ticket using a credit card so she cannot "cash and run". BUt Jen wants to meet me then as she sings in a CLub nearby. So the prverbial question is" "Is a gorgeous 9.5 pussy on my dick worht a new, 9.5 pussy in the bush"? What do you guys think I should do?

Dragon Slayer.

[QUOTE=Dragon Slayer]Guys,

Now to a serious matter here. I have some photos here of bona fied Davao Pussy. She wants to meet me in Makati when I arrive. I am not certain I should risk her actually flying there or "bailing out" on me. I will buy her ticket using a credit card so she cannot "cash and run". BUt Jen wants to meet me then as she sings in a CLub nearby. So the prverbial question is" "Is a gorgeous 9.5 pussy on my dick worht a new, 9.5 pussy in the bush"? What do you guys think I should do?

Dragon Slayer.[/QUOTE]3P would appear to be the only sensible thing to do ;-) You are killing me, man. I've got 3 weeks to go before I arrive and have whipped up a dozen or so likely FH candidates into what I hope is a sexual feeding frenzy.

BTW, are good condoms (read: thin) available in Davao? It is always tricky hiding 120 Kimonos from the wife while packing. I've got the Viagra thing down pat by getting two separate Rx's -- this way when she checks the medicine cabinet she smiles and tells me what a "good boy" I am.

Guys,

GoodEnough has asked me to input advice on some areas in the Newbie's questions on Davao.

1) On Hotels we have beaten this to death here on my Forum for not only Davao and Cebu but Cagayan De Oro, Zamboanga City and Makati City as well. I also have tried dozens of Hotels on Leyte, even though I have a beachfront home there (no one ever speaks to the foreigner and only tv is in tagalog; tons of young pussy but with my daughter and her mother their I am unalble to take advantage of this).

In any event as I have mentioned countless times the best hotels are Apo View and Casa Leticia for loacation and value. Marco Polo is easily one of the finest Hotels in all Asia (made the top 20 in 2007) but they are not giving away the rooms there. Bogobo House and Tower Inn are dumps. I never was at a "low enough point" in my Life to have to stay at Bogobo House. I did once stay at Tower Inn when everything else was fully booked. I paid P1800 in 2005 for what they called their "finest room".

Fuck, I have seen garages that looked better. Cement floor and walls, 20y/o tv set and 25 y/o refrigerator, both of which looked like they were acqauired from a thrift store that was going out of business. A bed you might use to lay a cadaver on before cutting it up. I awoke the next day and mercifully, Casa Leticia could fit me in. And this was their best room!

I have never been inside Las Casitas and from the outside it does not have "curb appeal". But you have to give it an A for location. Right next to Rizal Promenade and just down the street from Henny's 2 restaurants, Chico's, Someplace Else & Claude's. a 3 minute walk down the other strett to hot Legs 3. Directly across the street is a karaoke Restaurant frequented by regular Davao Pussy at night (crowded from 5-10PM Fri & sat nights).

None of these Hotels have in room safes, unless Apo View has added them since I last stayed there. Marco Polo is the only Hotel in Davao of the 8 I stayed in that has safes in the rooms.

2) Venue Disco is good on ladies night. Halos gets going after 10:30M and the crowd is young. There are live bands playing in the open air courtyard on Friday & Saturday nights and this brings women but nothing like Chico's, Someplace Else or Rizal Promenade.

3) I always find plenty to do during the day. Outside Davao is an ostrich farm also. This can be fun and you can buy fresh ostrich meat here. This is where Henny gets the meat for his ostrich Steaks in De Bonte Koe. I often hit the internet cafes in the early to late afternoon when they are full of women. I have met three women this way last July. Did not have to try this in September or November as from the five women i met and fucked back then I was still seeing two on a regular basis and had met three others online that I began to see in Davao.

Shopping can be fun at the shops on San Pedro St duirng the day. Gaisano Mall, where my Cherryl works, over on Illustre St is a great place to meet women. I was talking to a cute nursing student when shopping for a new cellphone with FE in September. GE observed this and whispered to me, "you can hae her in an instance; she is interested in you". I told him she was 17 and I do NOT get involved with kids. But think of the hundreds of women age 18-23 in the mall. The mall closes at 9:00PM and the women leave between 9 & 9:30PM whihc means hanging here just before closing can get you a date for a late diinner or drinks down the street at O'Flanagan's or Ground Zero.

4) Speaking of Ground Zero. The best time to visit here is right at 5:00PM, especially on Friday night. I sat here one evening at 5:00PM and there were six tables full of co-eds from the local colleges, nursing students and nurses getting off from duty at the hospital down the street. I was taking in the "ambiance" when my Cherryl (Sha-real) came over, having gotten off work early to fuck me.

4) Ktv's. These are expensive. The guy said his hotel budget is $ 30US (P1290); he will spend twice this much or more in a KTV. And in Cebu City he can drop $100-200 US in Steve's Ktv, Club Mermaids, Jaguar, etc without even trying. If you are on such a tight budget, avoid these places.

5) p4p in Davao requires a separate post. But the area around Ground Zero from 8:00PM -midnight is full of semi-pros working for tuition. As you were to exit Casa Leticia on J Camus St, go right for 50 meters to just before the little Videoke Bar. On the step there are 4-8 young semi-pros nightly. none of these should cost more than P600 all night, especially if you feed them. Be nice to them and you could have them for less afterwards.

6) There is a boat that goes from Cebu to Davao at night from Pier 7, I think at the docks in Cebu City. Leaves around 7:00PM and arrives in the morning some time. I took a similar boat to cagayan de Oro City once from pier 7. It is uncomfortable and i could not sleep. Had a karaoke bar, small restaurant with movies and another place for fine dining. I have alwasy flown since that one fateful trip back in 1994.

Dragon Slayer

[QUOTE=Dragon Slayer]Now to a serious matter here. I have some photos here of bona fied Davao Pussy. She wants to meet me in Makati when I arrive. I am not certain I should risk her actually flying there or "bailing out" on me. I will buy her ticket using a credit card so she cannot "cash and run". BUt Jen wants to meet me then as she sings in a CLub nearby. So the prverbial question is" "Is a gorgeous 9.5 pussy on my dick worht a new, 9.5 pussy in the bush"? What do you guys think I should do?

Dragon Slayer.[/QUOTE]DG,

I have been reading your adventures and I have to admit you're giving me the urge to move to Davao. Congrats on taking this small section of the board and improving it to such a success! Now to the 3000p question. You could try to joggle both (up to your level of tolerance as for me I'm a bit partial to it) But I've always been a fan of discovering new territories. So my vote is for the new 9. 5 pussy in the bush! Worst that can happen is that she turns to be a bust and Jen is still there as plan B.

[QUOTE=Mistalava]3P would appear to be the only sensible thing to do ;-) You are killing me, man. I've got 3 weeks to go before I arrive and have whipped up a dozen or so likely FH candidates into what I hope is a sexual feeding frenzy.

BTW, are good condoms (read: thin) available in Davao? It is always tricky hiding 120 Kimonos from the wife while packing. I've got the Viagra thing down pat by getting two separate Rx's -- this way when she checks the medicine cabinet she smiles and tells me what a "good boy" I am.[/QUOTE]You can buy a large variety of condoms here at any Mercury or Rose Pharmacy. Most are Trojans, but they may also have some Japanese brands. This should not be a concern. If you get to Manila for a night, stock up on the Indian-made Viagra/Cialis available all over Burgos St. for Php200 for four. It works fine and it will obviously cost you a lot less than in the US.

GE

Someone on the other board raised the issue of Matina Town Square, which is about ten or fifteen minutes out of the center of town, but not too far by taxi. The place is an open-ended square with small bars, restaurants and retail businesses on the three sides. There is also a coffee shop. I've been there three or four times to see my dentist during the evening, and all that I've noticed hanging around are fairly young kids--say 14-16 years old--and always in couples. From what I have seen, this is not a high yield destination and even if I'm wrong, the girls are simply too young.

There are some guys on the other board who seem to have taken issue with my choice of posting here. What can I say? It's a matter of individual choice, and I've chosen to do this. Why? Because I think it's more entertaining than the other one. Because DS is a close friend and I want to build up this board, and because I think DS probably makes the most insightful posts about the girl action in Davao. For those who don't like this, so be it. You have the choice of posting on the other board.

GE

Dragon Slayer,

Appreciate your time to answer my questions.

Tom

nirvash,

Thanks for your kind words. With Michelle (photos below) I can just see her in Davao. For some reason she is insistent on meeting me in Makati at my Hotel. I told her no way would I send her money and she would fly ticketless on Cebu Pacific on a ticket I bought with a credit card that she could not cash in for money. Just does not feel right.

GE and I will assist you with accomodations should you decide to visit here. Red Knights Garden has nice efficiencies for $ 420/Mo and you can get a decent rental home for $200/mo.

Mistalava,

You can buy condoms at Rose's Pharmacy on Illustre St right across from Gaisano Mall. They also sell viagra but I will tell you where to buy this. This mall is where my Cherryl (pronounced Sha Real)works. PM me and I will tell you where she is and you can drop by and ask her to introduce you to some of her beautiful co-workers. You can do ONE STOP SHOPPING. Buy your V & C at Rose's Pharmacy and walk across the street to the Mall for your P, via introduction from my lady there. Show up at 9:00PM and you can get one or two to join you for drinks or dinner.

Buy your viagra, the real thing from Pfizer, on Burgos St in Makati City. Go there as soon as you arrive. They will offer four packs for P1500. Refuse and start to walk away. Tell them you will pay only P200 per four pack of 100 mg V. Offer to buy four of them at this for P1000 ($ 23.25 US). 20 pills would cost me $ 160 in my City.

The 25 y/o in the photos here also wants to meet me Dec 26. She lives in Tarlac, just outside metro manila. I think she is a "sure thing" from the cam shots I took of her.

I just got some of the other photos of Anne posted here.

Dragon Slayer

DS,

The Michelle photos look a little too polished to me. Did you see this girl on the webcam also so that you can confirm who she is?

No way would I meet her in Makati. Wait until Davao. If she doesn't show it's no great time or money lost.