Berlin

[QUOTE=Angus Magee; 1309414]Got to agree here. I may not be interested in his particular kink but if he is paying for a consensual encounter, and paying well, who is anyone else to say that it is exploitive? That seems to be a false assumption. I mean all the stuff discussed on this forum is probably seen as exploitive by some. Best, in my opinion, is that if you are not interested in TM's post just not to read them. They are obviously controversial.

AM[/QUOTE]I don't agree, I judge, I'm happy I'm judjing and if it was for me I would confine this crap in a dedicated thread.

If this kind of stuff was to become common on this board I would very probably stop following it.

Nothing personal.

My2cents.

Kimino

aghhhh. really. do we need to get into this form of perversion here. maybe, free speech and all. then again free speech is not consequence free speech. in future i suppose we can add to the ignore list and for the record. almost every street girl i spoke with could be had for 20 euros. fwiw

[QUOTE=Kimino; 1309418]I don't agree, I judge, I'm happy I'm judjing and if it was for me I would confine this crap in a dedicated thread.

If this kind of stuff was to become common on this board I would very probably stop following it.

Kimino[/QUOTE]I knew when I posted earlier this would happen. Our poster also says he understands this is not everyone`s cup of tea (or box of caviar) , and so fair enough. But here are some complications.

First, all countries have laws that do overrule what consenting adults may do. The various stories about internet ads for murder and chopped up bits videos etc. Being an obvious example. TM seems to have skirted this line, but his story about meeting someone who had been "consensually" abused probably crosses it. However inconsistent and selective, there are laws to prevent people from harming themselves. You cannot deny that there is a continuum here and that at some point, there is a line. This varies from person to person but there are limits. And while this is the bane of Libertarians, the fact is that all cultures and societies have ended up with a wide range of taboos and rules on such things.

Angus's point about exploitation itself being a slippery concept is real but again, there is a line. I myself have on occasion bailed on a p4p because I didn't think the provider was in full command of her senses, or seemed (yes yes IMHO) to be of questionable mental stability. I am no angel on this point, and I was probably doing it for myself out of some sense of threat vs some genuine concern for another. But if I feel that consent aside, a partner does not seem at ease with the situation, end of story. You can easily say, well that is all relative and fair enough but I think most (certainly not all, but most) of the girls in the private flats here, or Artemis, are comfortable doing what they do. Of course, if we really knew whatever was driving that-financial pressures, abuse, father stuff, all the usual suspects, we might view this differently. Or they hide it well. But the comfort zone seems real enough.

But call me a prude or narrow, but you (I) just cannot equate, respectful, fun sex as on the same level as what TM described. There are deeper things going on and it is no accident that there are taboos and rules and laws about them. Messing around with human wastes, or some playful low level S&M is one thing (not mine but ok some do enjoy it all) but physical abuse is quite another. Is there a clear dividing line. Again not so simple to say where, but there is a line.

Finally on Kimino's point, I think Albert Camus in [i]The Plague [/i]said it best. When faced with moral relativism, the act of not judging is itself a judgement; you have decided deliberately not to judge. Ultimately we are all our own judges. But having fooled around with anarchy, we decided over several thousand years, that indeed lines needed drawing. No simple answers here and of course you can go on and on about freedom, the proper role of the state, what does "consent" really mean etc. Same argument about smoking, drugs, child porn, etc. All old battles.

When I first read TM's post, I thought, well, let it ride. But it did turn inside my head a few hours, and all these issues started spinning around, so hence this post.

Let us move this to I dunno the Lounge or something, as it could go on and on. It is useful that people see what is happening on the Mean Streets here, and they then decide. At least we now cannot say we do not know. And I also don't think reasonable people, who may well disagree on where the line is drawn, would say there is no line.

Finis-RB

Well nearly all p4p providers have been exploited before plying their trade. Either abused growing up or trafficked or whatever. I don't think we should judge this man. He has committed no illegal acts. And if anyone says they are immoral or unethical, plenty people would say that about all acts of paying for sex.

To say his kinks are "bad" and your own are "OK" is hypocritical. Nobody can force their own place where they draw the line on the rest of this board. I have read far worse on this board.

MY nuts are killing me after a few weeks of intense punting so decided to just walk around this great city for the last 2 days. Going to save my sperm for Jenna when she returns to Artemis FKK next week. Anyway as usual I digress. So I walked from my hotel in midtown Mitte on Friday evening and in no particular order ended up at 1) Billy Wilders 2) Vox 3) Marriott Bar then later on the other side of town the excellent 4) Bellini 5) Rivabar and 6) Reingold Speakeasy.

Plenty of tarts out for the night at each bar with some high end hotel WG types and semi-pros at most venues. I walked into Billy Wilders, was sneered at by the wait-staff so walked out but the other places were fun and generally cool.

Vox. The bar attached to the elegant restaurant is large and filled with couples, business types and a few single women form 20s-60s. I chatted to 3 or 4 30 ish types. Local German lasses on the "party plan". Asked one for price and she almost hit me. Oh well. Next. Drinks are pricey $$$$ and the vibe kind of sterile. The bar man told me they get a lt of p4p later in the night on Thu-Sat generally. Will check back again next week.

[url]http://www.vox-restaurant.de/bar.html[/url]

Marriott Hotel Bar. Been here before and there are several 30 something WGs who sit and smile at single male drinkers. I think the going rate few weeks back was 300Euros. Will go midweek and see what I can partake of.

Bellini. Cool, busy spot with outdoor seating, plenty of couples, plenty of middle aged guys like me and a few really hot semi-pros and wannabe women. Chatted to a pair of Romanian WGs who appeared to be off duty (FKK or brothel girls) who said they went there to find one off rich businessmen for $500 fucks. I laughed and said I could literally die at Artemis before I spent that much. Will be back tonight for a Sunday night gander.

Rivabar. A smentioned before, this can be a greta place

I understand that some people are not like what I writing.

I think my report is good and I thank you members who liked it.

Offcourse there is different people who like different stuff!

I love really nasty kinky and perverted games, But I pay for it!

I never do anything the girls not want to do, I negotiate before and then we agree, so whats wrong with that?

If the girls are working on the street they will proboblay meet really dangerous and sadistic people, and thats not me!

I like most to be humiliated from these girls, and they get paid for doing that!

Also I sometimes love to abuse and slap them hard.

BUT, offcourse I will not go harder on them, if they ask me to stop!

I am perverted kinky extreme and I fucking love it.

I understand that some people are not like what I writing.

I think my report is good and I thank you members who liked it.

Offcourse there is different people who like different stuff!

I love really nasty kinky and perverted games, But I pay for it!

I never do anything the girls not want to do, I negotiate before and then we agree, so whats wrong with that?

If the girls are working on the street they will proboblay meet really dangerous and sadistic people, and thats not me!

I like most to be humiliated from these girls, and they get paid for doing that!

Also I sometimes love to abuse and slap them hard.

BUT, offcourse I will not go harder on them, if they ask me to stop!

I am perverted kinky extreme and I fucking love it!

If some people have problems with that, don't read my posts!

I know some people really like this.

David

[QUOTE=WarmStone25; 1309185]. Etc.

Penny took me to the other apartment one level up, where we were alone.

Etc.

When I went to leave Penny sped ahead and disappeared into the second floor apartment without a thank you or good bye. The madam did not appear. Etc.[/QUOTE]1) When you wrote "second floor" do you mean the floor with the board "Text&Form" (If I remember well, depending on US or UK, first floor = ground floor and so second floor = third floor!)

If the meeting took place at the floor above the one with the board "Text&Form", in general, the "madam" didn't appear anymore (unless she was bringing up towels or some other housekeeping jobs)

[QUOTE=WarmStone25; 1309185]. Etc.

There is an asterisk against Penny's name on the web site. Perhaps this should be taken as a warning. Etc.[/QUOTE]Ladies with asterik : in general, that means that, in spite of their presence on the schedule, they may be absent; so it' s better to call the house before coming.

[QUOTE=ToiletMan;1309119]I am sorry, but I like really perverted nasty stuff, I know some of you don't like this.[/QUOTE]No, you are not sorry! If you were, you wouldn't have written so much about it! So don't apologize if it's not sincere and not for something that doesn't require an apology in the first place. You like what you do, the ones you did it with didn't object, so why the apology, especially when no laws were broken?

The only thing I really disliked about your report was the layout. In the future, please don't make a seperate column of each sentence and simply write a regular text.

[quote=swingerlover;1309842]the only thing i really disliked about your report was the layout. in the future, please don't make a separate column of each sentence and simply write a regular text.[/quote]

indeed. and to then post it basically 2 times, recently. so purely in the interest of conserving isg page space.......

i think really the best solution is that a new berlin thread or germany thread is created such as the perv zone or some name the people feel is appropriate. i understand all too well the argument on both sides, but i know a lot of us are uncomfortable with this stuff here. it might just be better if it finds another home.

it may well be absurd to enforce some sort of minimal behaviour code here as the free for all give and take is what makes the forum. i understand others do not agree and have the right not to. and this whole business is fraught with complex issues, such as who appoints who to create and enforce standards. but i think from some pms i've gotten, and some of the other comments posted, there is a developing "community" sense that these rough thoughts can be expressed but really belong elsewhere.

there is a big difference between reflecting some sort of group value judgement and "hypocricy", which is saying one thing and doing another (for those cocksure about such things). if a number of people think they should ignore tms posts, block him, or even say if the forum continues in this vein they will stop reading it, suggests a broader discomfort.

i will however say again that i really do find it personally revolting. free speech is one thing. but to think that

1 / by merely stating one is a pervert, this grants some sort of absolution where anything goes, and
2 / if a girl "willingly agrees" to be paid to be slapped around and abused, that all is well with the world, is just imho ludicrous. it is also bordering on some thin legal ice.

is this judgement arbitrary, ignoring all sorts of issues like all working girls have deep psychological and financial/power issues that we mongers are tapping into to a greater or lesser extent, etc.? yep. it is arbitrary.
do i bury these thoughts when dabbling? yep. most def.
do i have all kinds of silly rationalizations at hand to make it all ok? yep.
is thus saying there is a line here ridiculous? yep.

but it does not change the (my) sense that there is a line, and it has been crossed.
such is the state of play in our murky, imperfect world.

but for all you pervs yearning to breathe free, i am defending your right to say it. just that i think it belongs elsewhere. so let us just see if perhaps the simple answer is to create a new zone for such things, and if others agree?

Very well written RB!

Cheers.

[QUOTE=Rocketboy0; 1309912]. Etc.

I think really the best solution is that a new Berlin Thread or Germany Thread is created such as the Perv Zone or some name the people feel is appropriate. Etc.[/QUOTE]It's a good idea : for example the subforum "Special thems" in this German forum :

[url]http://www.freiercafe.com/forumdisplay.php?f=71[/url]

Reingold Speak easy. More of a couples and drinking place than a pick up joint for me. A good vibe and VERY NICE wait staff. Stayed here 2 hours Friday night and returned Saturday before heading to Bellini again where I ran into some of the Wg's I had met at Rivabar. They must think I am following them. Tried haggling at 130 Euros for LT as that was all I had (or so I told them). They all laughed me off. (maybe the union has reported my previous conquest). Anyway a good time was had. There are freebies of all ages with looks from 25/100 to 75/100 on the "wfa" scale. Didn't try as I would rather jack off then listen to some bint all night after I fucked her. So on I pressed.

Rivabar. Round 3. Sat night. Good crowd indoors and out. Hit up several local schwarzer girls and took a pro home for ST for the glorious rate of 1/2 bottle of Weingut Cuvee, a bottle of beer and an ice-cream (yes this lassie likes icecream). Young Alyssa it appears is from Abidjan (Senegal) and was sponsored to get here by a brothel in Hamburg who onsold her services. Very sad tale if true. As she had to do a runner but luckily she met an old (70s) local guy who keeps her fed, clothed and with a roof when she hasn't got one.

If you head to any of the bars she hangs out at Rivabar, Bellini, and sometimes around the SW areas (she is scared of pimps there though) and some other local nightclub spots I will ask her about this week. Appears there are 10 or 20 other girls in the same boat coming over from hamburg soon she says. I recommended she set up an account here and advertise. $20 is a bargain.

Alyssa is 6 feet, very thin (probably 125 lbs at most I mean. THIN) with natural B+ cups, delicious smile and very very dark skin. Sweet disposition and a bit of a look like Brandi. I will catch up with her again Wed and maybe for a few days and will ask about pics. She wants 500 Euros for a week but as I am busy for business I told her I would go 360 for 4 days and feed her etc. Very nice lady. Says she is 28, her English is poor. As is my French. So we kind of mongrel along in bad German and spent all night going at it. Wild child in bed

BUGGER me. I am so sick today and my dick and balls are really bad. Bloody agonizing. Any chance an STD symptom would show up in 3-4 days. Off to the doctors office. My hotel offered to get me an in call but I am kind of embarrassed enough as it is. Only time I have felt this terrible was after a session in Budapest which I reported some years ago.

Moral to the story. Don't go DATY on African broads or BBBJ or AO or anything like that. Maybe I will just refrain. This kills my Artemis plans and Jenna. And I was so looking forward to seeing her face (I mean boobs).

"Party LESS Wayne"

[QUOTE=Belvaros; 1310175]BUGGER me. I am so sick today and my dick and balls are really bad. Bloody agonizing. Any chance an STD symptom would show up in 3-4 days. Off to the doctors office. My hotel offered to get me an in call but I am kind of embarrassed enough as it is. Only time I have felt this terrible was after a session in Budapest which I reported some years ago.

Moral to the story. Don't go DATY on African broads or BBBJ or AO or anything like that. Maybe I will just refrain. This kills my Artemis plans and Jenna. And I was so looking forward to seeing her face (I mean boobs).

"Party LESS Wayne"[/QUOTE]B-Sent you a PM, for obvious reasons. Looks like the bill has come due. Hope you'll take it seriously and be responsible. Good luck.