'And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
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'And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
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[URL]https://t.me/RVvoenkor/43466[/URL]
[QUOTE=Questner;2811325]'And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
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[URL]https://t.me/RVvoenkor/43466[/URL][/QUOTE]And God said:
"The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand".
Cursed from the earth, an appropriate fate for Putin the murderer.
[QUOTE=Questner;2811325]'And the LORD said unto Vatniks, why are you so fucking stupid?[/QUOTE]I heard your brave leaders have been sending their sons to the front.
[QUOTE=Jmsuttr;2811188]My last post dealt directly with your comment that I'm taking things too personally. In response I stated that, aside from all the analysis and reasoning about geopolitical and battlefield outcomes, there is a distinct and separate moral dimension that needs to be considered and addressed. And it's that dimension that explains my personal feelings of revulsion and outrage.
So, lets try this a second time, shall we? Here's a video interview of a Wagner mercenary who has returned to Russia from fighting in Ukraine. In the interview, he states (among other disclosures) that he was given explicit orders to kill civilians, including children. In one graphic passage, he talks about shooting a girl who was about 5 or 6 years of age. He killed her with a shot to the head.
[URL]https://twitter.com/igorsushko/status/1648013152414732288[/URL]
Here's my challenge to you: Can you describe, in a simple single sentence, your reaction as a moral being to this (IMO) quintessential example of evil?
Please don't do yourself a disservice by engaging in some (for this particular moral issue) detached pundit-style discussion of a geopolitical or policy topic. It's a simple question that begs an equally simple answer.
Here's the bottom-line, IMO: Nobody knows how the war will end. Maybe Russia wins completely, maybe Ukraine wins completely, or maybe it'll be something in the middle. But that has NOTHING to do with recognizing evil when it's being perpetrated..[/QUOTE]You can frame the war as a black and white moral question. That's important. I can abhor the Russian atrocities and at the same time think about what the practical resolution to the hostilities might look like.
I am not criticizing Xpartan's post that followed your post, but it highlights the dilemma in thinking the United States and the West can fight every moral battle on the planet. The list he notes is long "Saudis, China, Venezuela and a litany of other "bad hombres" from Haiti to the "Stans". I could add some countries to that list, but that's not the point. The point is the you. S, and its European allies will support the cause of freedom and human rights. They will support those fighting tyranny and aggression. However, there will be accommodations with evil as there has been since 1945.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2811294]I too believe Putin was always going to attack, but I don't think he was looking for excuses. His excuses are ridiculous, clumsy and, quite frankly, insane. I think he attacked when he got to believe that his army was ready and Ukraine would fall apart the moment his tanks cross the border...........[/QUOTE]I agree with you that Putin was always going to attack the Ukraine. He believed his army was ready and it would be an easy victory.
I kind of think $100 a barrel oil early last year got Putin thinking he had the West in a precarious state. The West's need for oil and gas would outweigh its principle. Of course, it hasn't worked out that way. In Putin's mind, the timing was perfect.
[QUOTE=WyattEarp;2811549]You can frame the war as a black and white moral question. That's important. I can abhor the Russian atrocities and at the same time think about what the practical resolution to the hostilities might look like.
I am not criticizing Xpartan's post that followed your post, but it highlights the dilemma in thinking the United States and the West can fight every moral battle on the planet. The list he notes is long "Saudis, China, Venezuela and a litany of other "bad hombres" from Haiti to the "Stans". I could add some countries to that list, but that's not the point. The point is the you. S, and its European allies will support the cause of freedom and human rights. They will support those fighting tyranny and aggression. However, there will be accommodations with evil as there has been since 1945.[/QUOTE]You made a comment that, in your opinion, I'm taking the war too personally. The primary thrust of my response was NOT directed at the war, in a generalized sense, but rather at a SPECIFIC incident that I assert was an act of pure evil. And I asked you directly for your reaction to that specific act.
[QUOTE]You can frame the war as a black and white moral question.[/QUOTE]You're substituting a more abstract and generalized view in lieu of the very specific question presented to you.
[QUOTE]I am not criticizing Xpartan's post that followed your post, but[/QUOTE]Why are you commenting about Xpartan's post in your response to mine? Whether or not you intended it, the only purpose this passage served was either as filler (kindest interpretation) or as misdirection (less kind interpretation), both of which allowed you to side-step answering the specific question posed to you.
Can you find the frankness needed to answer a simple question with an equally simple answer? Fuck the war, in its generalized and abstract sense, and fuck Realpolitik and similar issues. So, let's try this again. Will the third time be a charm, or a strikeout?
"Here's a video interview of a Wagner mercenary who has returned to Russia from fighting in Ukraine. In the interview, he states (among other disclosures) that he was given explicit orders to kill civilians, including children. In one graphic passage, he talks about shooting a girl who was about 5 or 6 years of age. He killed her with a shot to the head.
[URL]https://twitter.com/igorsushko/statu...13152414732288[/URL]
Here's my challenge to you: Can you describe, in a simple single sentence, your reaction as a moral being to this (IMO) quintessential example of evil?
Please don't do yourself a disservice by engaging in some (for this particular moral issue) detached pundit-style discussion of a geopolitical or policy topic. It's a simple question that begs an equally simple answer".
To sum up, the ENTIRETY of this post deals solely with asking whether or not you would call the willful shooting of an innocent, defenseless young girl, an evil act.
If your moral compass says yes, then you've answered the question about why I have strong personal feelings.
If you can't (or won't) answer, or continue to seek refuge in "big picture"/ geopolitical / abstract concepts, that will be a profoundly disappointing development.
Duh, let's not get into details about the modified version of AA-13 Axehead. Today everyone asked about what was in common between Zed and Qin Shi Huang, the first emperor of China. Of course, both to share their funeral terracotta warriors. Trying to flush the drive of the image of schnorring Z, here's a nice triptych:
[QUOTE=Questner;2811624]Duh, let's not get into details about the modified version of AA-13 Axehead. Today everyone asked about what was in common between Zed and Qin Shi Huang, the first emperor of China. Of course, both to share their funeral terracotta warriors. Trying to flush the drive of the image of schnorring Z, here's a nice triptych:[/QUOTE]Since Putin will be sucking it, no matter what, details really don't matter.
Except, of course, if Putin sucks it three times in a row. Would that then be characterized as a nice trip-dyck?
Oh, and Putin should count himself lucky that he's servicing Xi rather than Emperor Wun Fat Dong!
[QUOTE]Vladimir Solovyov, an anchor on the Russia 1 channel, urged Carlson to "come join us," writing on his Telegram channel: "you don't have to be afraid of taking the p*** out of Biden here." Another message signed by his team on the nightly show said that the U.S. mainstream media "has lost [b]its last remaining voice of reason." [/b]
"You have our admiration and support in any endeavor," it said in English, "be it running for president of the United States (which you should totally do, by the way) or making an independent media project."[/QUOTE][URL]https://www.newsweek.com/carlson-russia-kremlin-media-fox-news-1796512[/URL]
I think Tucker should totally go work for Russia -- overtly, this time.
[QUOTE=Jmsuttr;2811202]Since you're so eager to believe unverified anonymous info, here's some more for you to swallow[/QUOTE]You do not know if Hersh has one or many sources. You just think your Democratic douche fact check is a source.
Of course, you have not read the article. No shock there. You did not even try to find it. Here it is: [URL]https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/how-america-took-out-the-nord-stream[/URL].
And here is a quotation of the story:
The Norwegian navy was quick to find the right spot, in the shallow waters of the Baltic sea a few miles off Denmark's Bornholm Island. The pipelines ran more than a mile apart along a seafloor that was only 260 feet deep. That would be well within the range of the divers, who, operating from a Norwegian Alta class mine hunter, would dive with a mixture of oxygen, nitrogen and helium streaming from their tanks, and plant shaped C4 charges on the four pipelines with concrete protective covers. It would be tedious, time consuming and dangerous work, but the waters off Bornholm had another advantage: there were no major tidal currents, which would have made the task of diving much more difficult.
After a bit of research, the Americans were all in.
At this point, the Navy's obscure deep-diving group in Panama City once again came into play. The deep-sea schools at Panama City, whose trainees participated in Ivy Bells, are seen as an unwanted backwater by the elite graduates of the Naval Academy in Annapolis, who typically seek the glory of being assigned as a Seal, fighter pilot, or submariner. If one must become a "Black Shoe"that is, a member of the less desirable surface ship commandthere is always at least duty on a destroyer, cruiser or amphibious ship. The least glamorous of all is mine warfare. Its divers never appear in Hollywood movies, or on the cover of popular magazines.
End of link. There are a lot of facts there, and not one was disputed.
And for someone who claims to be making statements based on facts, you are just a Democratic douche type who swears anything on CNN and MSNBC is fact and anything on Fox is not.
If you weren't such a loser, you would have taken on Hirsch's article versus insulting me.
[QUOTE=Jmsuttr;2811619]You're substituting a more abstract and generalized view in lieu of the very specific question presented to you.[/QUOTE]Nice seeing you put Wyatt on the spot for the third time, but this "abstract" "generalized" "realpolitik" softcore isolationism occasionally seasoned with sympathy for Russian propaganda is all we've gotten from Wyatt for the last 14 months, and with little consideration to the unfolding narrative. If you've read one of his posts you've read them all, thus for the most part I've stopped reading them.
I'll add that with someone like Elvis it's direct. You know exactly what you are getting and where's he coming from. Wyatt's ad nauseam and disingenuous pseudo-intellectualism though is especially nauseating.
And yes, the Russians are war criminals. Their actions should invoke an emotional reaction from anyone with a moral conscience. Fact is though that many on the planet do not have one. Life is only viewed and lived with the aim of what pleasures they can personally get out of it. It's thus very easy and perfectly natural for them to operate in the abstract when it comes to the tribulations of other people.
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2811699]You do not know if Hersh has one or many sources. You just think your Democratic douche fact check is a source.
End of link. [b]There are a lot of facts there, and not one was disputed.[/b]
And for someone who claims to be making statements based on facts, you are just a Democratic douche type who swears anything on CNN and MSNBC is fact and anything on Fox is not.[/QUOTE]Here you go. The recap of a BS "article" and two Elvis' signature "douches" in one post. Good job!
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2811699]You do not know if Hersh has one or many sources. You just think your Democratic douche fact check is a source.
Of course, you have not read the article. No shock there. You did not even try to find it. Here it is: [URL]https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/how-america-took-out-the-nord-stream[/URL].
And here is a quotation of the story:
The Norwegian navy was quick to find the right spot, in the shallow waters of the Baltic sea a few miles off Denmark's Bornholm Island. The pipelines ran more than a mile apart along a seafloor that was only 260 feet deep. That would be well within the range of the divers, who, operating from a Norwegian Alta class mine hunter, would dive with a mixture of oxygen, nitrogen and helium streaming from their tanks, and plant shaped C4 charges on the four pipelines with concrete protective covers. It would be tedious, time consuming and dangerous work, but the waters off Bornholm had another advantage: there were no major tidal currents, which would have made the task of diving much more difficult.
After a bit of research, the Americans were all in.
At this point, the Navy's obscure deep-diving group in Panama City once again came into play. The deep-sea schools at Panama City, whose trainees participated in Ivy Bells, are seen as an unwanted backwater by the elite graduates of the Naval Academy in Annapolis, who typically seek the glory of being assigned as a Seal, fighter pilot, or submariner. If one must become a "Black Shoe"that is, a member of the less desirable surface ship commandthere is always at least duty on a destroyer, cruiser or amphibious ship. The least glamorous of all is mine warfare. Its divers never appear in Hollywood movies, or on the cover of popular magazines.
End of link. There are a lot of facts there, and not one was disputed.
And for someone who claims to be making statements based on facts, you are just a Democratic douche type who swears anything on CNN and MSNBC is fact and anything on Fox is not.
If you weren't such a loser, you would have taken on Hirsch's article versus insulting me.[/QUOTE]Anyone can claim whatever they want. Without verification those claims will never qualify as facts.
Therefore, my claim that you're the source of the highly questionable (same exact phrase, 20 years apart from different people, really?) "goat fuck" quotes is every bit as valid as any of Hersh's claims. No independent verification? No problem! Are his "sources" confidential? Well, so are mine. Lots of juicy detail? Hey, just stay tuned for the bombshell details that will be disclosed at [URL]www.elvisthegoatfucker.com[/URL] (it'll be a doozy)!
P.S. Most of the links I've posted have been those that set forth verifiable facts, such as reports of Russian ships being photographed in the area of the explosion. I don't believe I've posted ANYTHING (Dem douche or otherwise) that seeks to directly fact check Hersh's NordStream story. I did post a link to a critic who pointed out problems with PREVIOUS stories, and discussed how those past issues give rise to credibility questions. Your bogus assertion is therefore a pathetic straw-man argument. Nice try!
But I'm glad you brought it up, because here's a new story describing one of the photographed Russian ships as having mini-submarine capabilities.
[URL]https://twitter.com/ASLuhn/status/1651699036607447046[/URL]
[URL]https://www.information.dk/indland/2023/04/forsvaret-bekraefter-rusland-specialfartoej-naer-nord-streams-spraengningspunkt[/URL]
I'm not pushing any particular narrative because, as I've stated repeatedly, I choose to reserve judgment until more verified facts (not mere claims) come to light. Of the various alternative possibilities, things aren't trending particularly well for your preferred narrative.
P. P.S. Facts are neither Democrat or Republican. They rest securely on the foundation of verified evidence.
[URL]https://dnyuz.com/2023/04/27/russian-army-commander-arrested-for-selling-tank-engines/[/URL]
"The Kommersant newspaper reported that Colonel Alexander Denisov is accused of stealing seven V-92 S2 engines worth 20.5 million roubles (around 200,000) between November 2021 and April 2022".
"In 2019, two other Russian army officers were convicted of a similar theft".
Ah, Russian institutionalized corruption, the gift that keeps on giving!
[QUOTE=Questner;2811624]Orc grunting noises[/QUOTE]These last few days watching the RuZZians running away and leaving equipment behind have been an absolute joy.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2812057]These last few days watching the RuZZians running away and leaving equipment behind have been an absolute joy.[/QUOTE]Not to mention how they leave their dead behind to fertilize the Ukrainian Earth!
[QUOTE=Jmsuttr;2811930]Anyone can claim whatever they want. Without verification those claims will never qualify as facts.
Therefore, my claim that you're the source of the highly questionable (same exact phrase, 20 years apart from different people, really?) "goat fuck" quotes is every bit as valid as any of Hersh's claims. No independent verification? No problem! Are his "sources" confidential? Well, so are mine. Lots of juicy detail? Hey, just stay tuned for the bombshell details that will be disclosed at [URL]www.elvisthegoatfucker.com[/URL] (it'll be a doozy)!
I'm not pushing any particular narrative because, as I've stated repeatedly, I choose to reserve judgment until more verified facts (not mere claims) come to light. Of the various alternative possibilities, things aren't trending particularly well for your preferred narrative.
P. P.S. Facts are neither Democrat or Republican. They rest securely on the foundation of verified evidence.[/QUOTE]You are boring me and everyone else. This is the Democratic douche defense. I gave you the link to Hersh's article and asked you to point out one thing he got wrong. You rambled on about some bullshit with regards to what constitutes a fact and what does not and then you personally attacked me.
Then you double down on the same Russian ships near the pipeline bullshit.
The fact is that the Nordstream pipeline was blown up. Hersh wrote a great article about the USA doing it. And I pointed out how it benefitted the USA to the tune of billions and even trillions of dollars. The evidence looks very strong the USA with the help of European nations blew up the pipeline.
You disregard all of that and say there were Russians ships in the area which is so meaningless that it actually adds to the likelihood the USA did it as it is the weakest alterative to the USA doing the deed.
So let's make it personal with you. If it makes Russia look badly, JM, that is a fact for you, and anything that makes Ukraine and its allies look badly is not a fact and should be disputed. So you can stop with the lectures. We all know how you are now.
You are like Eihtooms, AKA Bagdad Bob, of the politics forum. Every post he makes is some version of Dems good, Republicans bad.
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2811778]I'll add that with someone like Elvis it's direct. You know exactly what you are getting and where's he coming from. Wyatt's ad nauseam and disingenuous pseudo-intellectualism though is especially nauseating.
And yes, the Russians are war criminals. Their actions should invoke an emotional reaction from anyone with a moral conscience. Fact is though that many on the planet do not have one. Life is only viewed and lived with the aim of what pleasures they can personally get out of it. It's thus very easy and perfectly natural for them to operate in the abstract when it comes to the tribulations of other people.[/QUOTE]Thanks Paulie, with the pipeline issue for instance, I am actually glad Biden went ahead with that. You could make the case that was in American's interests. I even get keeping the reasons for doing it dark just do not feed me the bullshit about facts and who did what.
Switching gears for a second, we were fed this bullshit about Covid not coming from a lab and Fauci lying about gain of function research. Andrew Huberman was on Joe Rogan's podcast and admitted he does gene manipulation in his lab and knew personally how common lab leaks were. So I get scientists and their desire to cover up the likely origins of Covid but do not feed me this bullshit that anyone saying it did not come from a lab was engaging in conspiracy theory. When that was put that out there, that practically confirmed for me Covid did come from a lab.
Sure, the Russians are war criminals but prosecuting them is the kind of thing you say at a political rally but it is hard to enact. If you say you are going to do that, then the chance of a cease fire or peace deal is markedly lowered. In fact, Russell Brand had a podcast where he quoted a paper saying I think it was the CIA was helping the Russians get out of war criminals charges because if potential charges were enacted against Russia, the same could be done for the USA.
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2812136]You are boring me and everyone else. This is the Democratic douche defense. I gave you the link to Hersh's article and asked you to point out one thing he got wrong. You rambled on about some bullshit with regards to what constitutes a fact and what does not and then you personally attacked me.
Then you double down on the same Russian ships near the pipeline bullshit.
The fact is that the Nordstream pipeline was blown up. Hersh wrote a great article about the USA doing it. And I pointed out how it benefitted the USA to the tune of billions and even trillions of dollars. The evidence looks very strong the USA with the help of European nations blew up the pipeline.
You disregard all of that and say there were Russians ships in the area which is so meaningless that it actually adds to the likelihood the USA did it as it is the weakest alterative to the USA doing the deed.
So let's make it personal with you. If it makes Russia look badly, JM, that is a fact for you, and anything that makes Ukraine and its allies look badly is not a fact and should be disputed. So you can stop with the lectures. We all know how you are now.
You are like Eihtooms, AKA Bagdad Bob, of the politics forum. Every post he makes is some version of Dems good, Republicans bad.[/QUOTE]Facts aren't facts just because they fit into your preferred narrative. If Hersh can't be bothered to provide corroboration, why should anyone give him a minute's attention?
Facts = things that actually happened. Facts require verification and corroboration before they can be considered as such. For example, every story I linked to about Russian ships contained verifiable facts, namely the photos taken of those ships and the attendant dates and locations. Oh, and the latest link, the one to the mini-sub capable ship, is also factual.
Narrative = A story, which might or might not be true. What distinguishes a true narrative is the set of verified facts it contains. A narrative which lacks such facts is rightfully disregarded.
Hersh provides no corroboration, no verification, and apparently doesn't seem to think he needs any. If his uncorroborated word is good enough for you, fine. It isn't good enough for me.
Unlike you, I have not pushed any single alternative as being definitely true. Providing factually true information is not the same as pushing a specific narrative. I continue to reserve judgment until more facts come to light. I understand why that's difficult for you to grasp, since you view any questioning of your narrative as being the endorsement of another. It's not.
BTW, how can you take personal offense at the revelation that you're the source of the infamous (and suspicious) "goat fuck" quotes? After all, I've scrupulously adhered to Hershian standards of proof, right? And, considering how important Hersh's narrative is to your feelings of self-worth, I'd have thought you'd be pleased as punch at being outed as the "goat fucker".
Of course, when others consider the EXTREME improbability of two separate sources, concerning two distinct events with 20+ years between them, uttering the EXACT same phrase to Hersh, they would naturally wonder about the credibility of such an account. But not you! As a true Hersh acolyte you take every word as gospel and question nothing. Anyone with doubts, or seeking verification, is an apostate and blasphemer, right?
But hey, no worries, since you're such a fan of unverified claims, here's another fun website for you:
[URL]https://theflatearthsociety.org/home/[/URL]
They have LOTS of highly detailed "facts" on their website. Pray tell, which ones did they get wrong? No rush, we've got plenty of time.
P.S. If you find my posts boring, by all means ignore them. So, while I will continue to post relevant facts, your presence is as profoundly irrelevant as the existence of unverified narratives.
Zed looks more and more like Saddam. Destined to hang won't drown.
[QUOTE=Gopnik;2812060]Not to mention how they leave their dead behind to fertilize the Ukrainian Earth![/QUOTE]Forget the dead. They leave their wounded behind just as easily.
[URL]https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11687053/Putins-troops-flee-Vuhledar-battlefield-leave-wounded-vehicles-destroyed.html[/URL]
[URL]https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-moscow-91c46d82268b3d5210b811ba67d66d33[/URL]
[URL]https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/11/10/russias-wounded-soldiers-abandoned-fate-kherson-army-flees-ukrainian[/URL]
There are refrigerated trains with tens of thousands of their dead soldiers that the Ukrainians are willing to return. The Russians won't have it. They'd have to pay the families for their fallen, while the MIA don't count.
[URL]https://www.irishtimes.com/world/europe/2022/07/27/no-body-means-no-money-ukrainian-official-accuses-russians-of-abandoning-dead-soldiers/[/URL]
Boy, what a country! I see why Questner couldn't be prouder.
[QUOTE=Questner;2812276]Zed looks more and more like Saddam. Destined to hang won't drown.[/QUOTE]Mussolini: Shot by partisans, hanged upside down by a mob (78 years + 1 day ago).
[URL]https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/04/28/did-the-brutal-death-of-mussolini-contribute-to-hitlers-suicide/[/URL]
Hitler: Suicide, reportedly motivated by what happened to Mussolini (see above). Fascinating that Little Adolf (was he as short as Putin?) received the devastating news exactly 78 years ago today!
"News of Mussolini's public, humiliating death reached Hitler by radio the following day, April 29,1945, in his Fuhrerbunker below Berlin, where he had been confined for two weeks as Soviet forces approached the German capital. "This will never happen to me," Hitler said".
Of course, if rumors about Putin's health are accurate, he might croak on his own in his PutinBunker. Or perhaps he'll be "helped along" by the hand of someone close to him?
However it happens, good riddance to a murderous, imperialist thug. He will be reviled throughout the civilized world while Zelensky will be celebrated. Putin flushed Russia's future down the toilet while Ukraine, although it won't necessarily be an easy path, is destined for a bright future as part of the EU (and likely NATO).
P.S. I doubt Putin will end like Saddam. Capture is a less likely outcome than death. If karma is a thing, his final act might be a rather messy one. One can only hope.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2812331]Forget the dead. They leave their wounded behind just as easily.
[URL]https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11687053/Putins-troops-flee-Vuhledar-battlefield-leave-wounded-vehicles-destroyed.html[/URL]
[URL]https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-moscow-91c46d82268b3d5210b811ba67d66d33[/URL]
[URL]https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/11/10/russias-wounded-soldiers-abandoned-fate-kherson-army-flees-ukrainian[/URL]
There are refrigerated trains with tens of thousands of their dead soldiers that the Ukrainians are willing to return. The Russians won't have it. They'd have to pay the families for their fallen, while the MIA don't count.
[URL]https://www.irishtimes.com/world/europe/2022/07/27/no-body-means-no-money-ukrainian-official-accuses-russians-of-abandoning-dead-soldiers/[/URL]
Boy, what a country! I see why Questner couldn't be prouder.[/QUOTE][URL]https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/vladimir-putin-orders-21-mobile-28994545[/URL]
Ash takes up less space and, as an added bonus, burning the bodies can be done unilaterally. No need to worry about the inconvenience of Ukraine having dead Orcs on ice.
As you noted, without bodies being returned to families, no combat death payments need be made. Ashes, unlike corpses, can't be identified.
Truly the kind of "final solution," that should appeal to LilliPutin!
[QUOTE=Jmsuttr;2812212]Facts aren't facts just because they fit into your preferred narrative. If Hersh can't be bothered to provide corroboration, why should anyone give him a minute's attention?
Facts = things that actually happened. Facts require verification and corroboration before they can be considered as such. For example, every story I linked to about Russian ships contained verifiable facts, namely the photos taken of those ships and the attendant dates and locations. Oh, and the latest link, the one to the mini-sub capable ship, is also factual.
Narrative = A story, which might or might not be true. What distinguishes a true narrative is the set of verified facts it contains. A narrative which lacks such facts is rightfully disregarded.
Hersh provides no corroboration, no verification, and apparently doesn't seem to think he needs any. If his uncorroborated word is good enough for you, fine. It isn't good enough for me.[/QUOTE]We already saw your corroboration bullshit blow up with the origin of Covid. We have all these scientists say the same thing publicly: that Covid did not come from a lab but came from nature, but there was not one fact to fit that theory. The people organizing the Covid came from nature theory we now know were not even listed as authors of the article, and the article also went on to say that anyone saying Covid came from a lab was engaging in conspiracy theory.
We also know that two of the authors of the article also were paid off. They first said Covid did in fact come from a lab. They changed their tune once Fauci gave them millions in grant money.
So that blows up your whole corroboration as facts bullshit model for truth? How do you know those corroborating are not doing so out of self interest? Or being paid off? You do not. There were no facts showing Covid came from nature. There was just corroboration.
As for you, you are not looking at Ukrainian weakness:
[URL]https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/we-simply-dont-have-ammo-polish-general-says-can-no-longer-supply-ukraine-warns-russia[/URL]
Speaking at a strategy session of the National Security Bureau, the Polish Armed Forces chief of staff General Rajmund Andrzejczak said that when he analyzes the war in Ukraine politically, he is pessimistic.
This is, he explained, because "there is nothing that indicates that Russia will lack the resources to continue the conflict."
He said during the session that he did not feel sanctions would stop Russia from having the funds to continue the war.
The general also offered a bleak assessment of Poland's ability to send ammunition to Ukraine.
"We simply don't have the ammunition. Our industry isn't ready to send the equipment to Ukraine and to maintain our own dwindling reserves," he said.
He noted that he was tirelessly presenting such an analysis in order to raise awareness.
He continued his remarks by saying that "war is not the business of soldiers. "
And how about this for corroboration from Republican Congressmen?
For nearly a year, your administration has poured aid into Ukraine at the expense of USA Military readiness. Supplies that will take years to replenish are being exhausted by Ukraine in a matter of weeks. Ukraine is currently burning through more 155 mm artillery rounds in one month than the USA Can produce in six. We have given more Javelins to Ukraine than can be made in four years. 10 As we demand that industry ramp up production of HIMARS, Javelins, and Stingers to support Ukraine, our allies are left with delivery backlogs for these same weapons. Should our actions entangle us in a confrontation with Russia now or should conflict erupt in the Indo-Pacific in the coming years, we fear that our military will be woefully unprepared to meet these challenges as a direct result of what has been shipped to Ukraine.
You are so blind it is unreal. Ukraine can and probably will lose this war and yet here you are talking about how Putin will die like Hitler. Yeah, Ukraine is going to surround Moscow like Hitler was in Berlin.
You say no one knows what is going to happen and then you come up with this Hilter bullshit.
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2812491]We already saw your corroboration bullshit blow up with the origin of Covid. We have all these scientists say the same thing publicly: that Covid did not come from a lab but came from nature, but there was not one fact to fit that theory. The people organizing the Covid came from nature theory we now know were not even listed as authors of the article, and the article also went on to say that anyone saying Covid came from a lab was engaging in conspiracy theory.
We also know that two of the authors of the article also were paid off. They first said Covid did in fact come from a lab. They changed their tune once Fauci gave them millions in grant money.
So that blows up your whole corroboration as facts bullshit model for truth? How do you know those corroborating are not doing so out of self interest? Or being paid off? You do not. There were no facts showing Covid came from nature. There was just corroboration.
As for you, you are not looking at Ukrainian weakness:
[URL]https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/we-simply-dont-have-ammo-polish-general-says-can-no-longer-supply-ukraine-warns-russia[/URL]
Speaking at a strategy session of the National Security Bureau, the Polish Armed Forces chief of staff General Rajmund Andrzejczak said that when he analyzes the war in Ukraine politically, he is pessimistic.
This is, he explained, because "there is nothing that indicates that Russia will lack the resources to continue the conflict."
He said during the session that he did not feel sanctions would stop Russia from having the funds to continue the war.
The general also offered a bleak assessment of Poland's ability to send ammunition to Ukraine.
"We simply don't have the ammunition. Our industry isn't ready to send the equipment to Ukraine and to maintain our own dwindling reserves," he said.
He noted that he was tirelessly presenting such an analysis in order to raise awareness.
He continued his remarks by saying that "war is not the business of soldiers. "
And how about this for corroboration from Republican Congressmen?
For nearly a year, your administration has poured aid into Ukraine at the expense of USA Military readiness. Supplies that will take years to replenish are being exhausted by Ukraine in a matter of weeks. Ukraine is currently burning through more 155 mm artillery rounds in one month than the USA Can produce in six. We have given more Javelins to Ukraine than can be made in four years. 10 As we demand that industry ramp up production of HIMARS, Javelins, and Stingers to support Ukraine, our allies are left with delivery backlogs for these same weapons. Should our actions entangle us in a confrontation with Russia now or should conflict erupt in the Indo-Pacific in the coming years, we fear that our military will be woefully unprepared to meet these challenges as a direct result of what has been shipped to Ukraine.
You are so blind it is unreal. Ukraine can and probably will lose this war and yet here you are talking about how Putin will die like Hitler. Yeah, Ukraine is going to surround Moscow like Hitler was in Berlin.
You say no one knows what is going to happen and then you come up with this Hilter bullshit.[/QUOTE]Elvis, Xman and Pauline, believe everything they read and see from there liberal sources. Ukraine is getting destroyed. Putin is now stronger then ever, the sanction have done nothing, but bring Russia and China closer. Great job Biden and his buddies.
This will go down as one of the miss calcuations ever. We go to war with Russia, but the states and Europe forget to produce gas. The world is now in recession and it could get much worse. Putin is a bad guy, but he is totally winning now at home and abroad. This war should have never started.
The funny part is the liberals want this disaster to continiue and Rep. , want it to end. I guess they want to keep blaming Russia for everything. What a disaster, the quicker this ends the better off, everyone will be. Ukraine is not winning anything, I am sorry, they are getting more destroyed every day this continues. There will be nothing left to fight over, Ukraine will lose one or 2 generations of men, and Kiev will probably be land locked. I guess this is a win!
[QUOTE=Jmsuttr;2812445]Mussolini: Shot by partisans, hanged upside down by a mob (78 years + 1 day ago).
[URL]https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/04/28/did-the-brutal-death-of-mussolini-contribute-to-hitlers-suicide/[/URL]
Hitler: Suicide, reportedly motivated by what happened to Mussolini (see above). Fascinating that Little Adolf (was he as short as Putin?) received the devastating news exactly 78 years ago today!
"News of Mussolini's public, humiliating death reached Hitler by radio the following day, April 29,1945, in his Fuhrerbunker below Berlin, where he had been confined for two weeks as Soviet forces approached the German capital. "This will never happen to me," Hitler said".
[/QUOTE]Neither. He'll be done in by his own henchmen, like Ceasescu was, sans the dramatics of a fake trial and firing squad. I'm thinking poison (or sledgehammer in case they're pressed for time). That, of course, will be followed by a quick cremation in accordance with the family wishes, LOL.
[QUOTE=Jmsuttr;2812458][URL]https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/vladimir-putin-orders-21-mobile-28994545[/URL]
Ash takes up less space and, as an added bonus, burning the bodies can be done unilaterally. No need to worry about the inconvenience of Ukraine having dead Orcs on ice.
As you noted, without bodies being returned to families, no combat death payments need be made. Ashes, unlike corpses, can't be identified.
Truly the kind of "final solution," that should appeal to LilliPutin![/QUOTE]You're talking about a separate thing. For whatever reason (humanitarian, PR or both), the Ukrainians are trying to preserve the bodies of Russian soldiers they've killed.
Putin is burning the bodies of civilians he's killed to destroy the evidence.
Which, by the way, won't work. There are people who operate these mobile crematoriums. They will talk one day.
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2812491]We already saw your corroboration bullshit blow up with the origin of Covid[/QUOTE]You're obviously COVID-obsessed but, unfortunately for you, facts that are relevant to this Ukraine-centric forum, including facts relevant to the NordStream issue, have an existence that is INDEPENDENT and OUTSIDE of your little COVID bubble. Nice try at attempting to link the issues, but it doesn't help Hersh as it provides nothing in the way of factual corroboration of his claims.
FWIW, I can't recall if I've ever even mentioned COVID in this forum. If I have, it was probably to point out the utter irrelevance of trying to shoehorn COVID-specific issues into the Ukraine discussion.
BTW, while you're on your COVID rant, can you educate us as to whether COVID spreads differently on a Flat Earth?
[QUOTE]"So that blows up your whole corroboration as facts bullshit model for truth?[/QUOTE]Actually, it precisely substantiates my position. Those who pushed the "natural origin" narrative did so WITHOUT verifiable facts! Here are two examples:
1. If COVID was natural, there should have been a sizable animal population (bats, pangolins, or other) in which the SARS-COV 2 virus (or very close variant) could be detected. That fact never materialized, despite the best efforts of the narrative-pushers. The closest variant that has ever been found in animals is a distant relative, at best.
2. If COVID was natural, no one would benefit more than China. A lab leak would make China the bad guy, whereas a natural origin would make China just another victim. China not only has exclusive control over the area from which the "natural origin" allegedly came, but they also have a huge amount of resources (scientists + soldiers + other personnel) they could have deployed to find the "natural" source, had it existed. The fact that China couldn't produce evidence of animal origin is a pretty good indication of a flawed narrative.
You seem to be assuming that I was somehow on the "natural origin" bandwagon. Nothing could be further from the truth. As the two above points illustrate, that narrative was lacking when it came to essential, verifiable facts. As a consequence, from early on I doubted "natural origin" and leaned toward the lab-created theory. And, as is my general practice, I refused to jump to conclusions and patiently waited for more facts to surface.
Thanks much for so effectively making my point for me!
And thanks SO much for clearly demonstrating that narrative + reinforcing narratives (repeated ad nauseam) will NEVER = verified and corroborated facts!
(Note: I don't believe goats have been investigated as a possible source of COVID. Someone should research whether goat-fucking was the problem.).
[QUOTE]As for you, you are not looking at Ukrainian weakness:[/QUOTE]Unlike you, I am perfectly able to keep my feelings for Putin and his Orcs (abhorrence and contempt) completely separate from my analysis and evaluation of evidence and facts. As much as it's my HOPE for a Ukrainian victory, I have made no such prediction or claim. "Expert" prognosticators are out there in force, on both sides. But, since the vast majority of truly relevant information is being kept secret (by both sides), all the pundits are basically peddling guesswork and their personal opinions. That's fine, and I'm sure it helps pay the bills, but it's still mere speculation.
As I've said many times before, if I had a dollar for every wrong prediction about this war, I'd have a shitload of dollars!
[QUOTE]You are so blind it is unreal. Ukraine can and probably will lose this war and yet here you are talking about how Putin will die like Hitler. Yeah, Ukraine is going to surround Moscow like Hitler was in Berlin.
You say no one knows what is going to happen and then you come up with this Hilter bullshit.[/QUOTE]And you're apparently blind to the fact that my Mussolini / Hitler post was a direct response to a known clown who tried to equate Zelensky with Saddam (and his death). What does it say about you that you're unable to pick up on ridicule and then try to distort it to fit your own convoluted, bile-filled, pretzel-logic?
Twister much?
[QUOTE=Questner;2812276]Confused Orc noises[/QUOTE]Are the chinese lessons going well? Has your daughter been purchased by a guy in shanghai yet?
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2812528]Elvis, Xman and Pauline, believe everything they read and see from there liberal sources. Ukraine is getting destroyed. Putin is now stronger then ever, the sanction have done nothing, but bring Russia and China closer. Great job Biden and his buddies.
This will go down as one of the miss calcuations ever. We go to war with Russia, but the states and Europe forget to produce gas. The world is now in recession and it could get much worse. Putin is a bad guy, but he is totally winning now at home and abroad. This war should have never started.
The funny part is the liberals want this disaster to continiue and Rep. , want it to end. I guess they want to keep blaming Russia for everything. What a disaster, the quicker this ends the better off, everyone will be. Ukraine is not winning anything, I am sorry, they are getting more destroyed every day this continues. There will be nothing left to fight over, Ukraine will lose one or 2 generations of men, and Kiev will probably be land locked. I guess this is a win![/QUOTE]Ukraine is at war and, while it's obviously not flourishing, it's supported by Europe, the US, and other major countries (like Australia and Japan). Russia has the support, in varying degree, of China, Iran, and North Korea.
The war has been mostly static over the winter months, so it's hard to see any firm evidence for your conclusion that Ukraine is losing. If you have anything to offer, other than your own opinion, kindly lay it on the table for examination and debate.
Otherwise, your opinion is just one of many, most of which have turned out to be wrong.
P.S. The war could end tomorrow. All it'd take is for Putin to order his troops back to Russia. Dems didn't start this war, and neither did Republicans. It was started by a narcissistic dictator with imperialist and revanchist ambitions. He can either decide to stop it, or he will need to be stopped.
[QUOTE=Jmsuttr;2812556]Actually, it precisely substantiates my position. Those who pushed the "natural origin" narrative did so WITHOUT verifiable facts! Here are two examples:
1. If COVID was natural, there should have been a sizable animal population (bats, pangolins, or other) in which the SARS-COV 2 virus (or very close variant) could be detected. That fact never materialized, despite the best efforts of the narrative-pushers. The closest variant that has ever been found in animals is a distant relative, at best.
2. If COVID was natural, no one would benefit more than China. A lab leak would make China the bad guy, whereas a natural origin would make China just another victim. China not only has exclusive control over the area from which the "natural origin" allegedly came, but they also have a huge amount of resources (scientists + soldiers + other personnel) they could have deployed to find the "natural" source, had it existed. The fact that China couldn't produce evidence of animal origin is a pretty good indication of a flawed narrative.[/QUOTE]You're really swaggering around on this one. LOL Peer reviewed analysis from SARS-2 positive swabs collected from the Wuhan wet market in the early days of the pandemic show the presence of DNA from susceptible animal species. And this is based on a recently released peer reviewed study conducted by international researchers.
[URL]https://zenodo.org/record/7754299[/URL]#. ZE6749 rMJPY.
Also SARS-2 has been discovered in animals many times.
[URL]https://www.fao.org/animal-health/situation-updates/sars-cov-2-in-animals/en[/URL]
Of course none of that will take any dedicated conspiracy theorist or Chinophobe off their soap box, but it might inspire someone like yourself to approach this one with some of the same humility you display when it comes to predicting the outcome of the war in Ukraine. This one is inconclusive.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2812528]The funny part is the liberals want this disaster to continiue and Rep. , want it to end. [/QUOTE]The "funny" part is that you are poorly educated and don't know how to do research. LOL You want to be part of the conversation but are unable to engage beyond repeating the same fallacious and unsubstantiated opinions over and over in a hooker forum.
It's not about "liberals" against "Republicans" as the majority of the latter support Ukraine and wish to provide them with the means to prevail in the conflict.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2812528]I guess they want to keep blaming Russia for everything.[/QUOTE]Without a doubt. They started the war and are waging it by murdering non-combatants. All reasonable "liberals" and "Republicans" feel this way.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2812528]What a disaster, the quicker this ends the better off, everyone will be. [/QUOTE]And what a disaster it would have been if Ukraine had just bent over, grabbed their ankles, and gave away their country when the invaders arrived. If you had any decency or ethics beyond wanting to see lower gas prices for yourself you'd instead be in here every week howling for Putin to stop prosecuting his illegal war.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2812528]Ukraine is not winning anything, I am sorry, they are getting more destroyed every day this continues. There will be nothing left to fight over, Ukraine will lose one or 2 generations of men, and Kiev will probably be land locked. I guess this is a win![/QUOTE]There's one statement I agree with here, and that's when you say you are "sorry. " You certainly are, and are a third rate tool of far right propaganda and you don't even know it. You can't even come up with any new material. If we've read one of your posts we've read them all. But Russia controls much less territory then they did at the start of the war. There's plenty of maps up that illustrate that if you know how to use Google. Also Ukraine isn't anywhere near landlocked, while your predictions are worthless.
Recently in an interview held in a shelter-basement type of a bunker, Zed has admitted to carrying a handgun. Is it a plastic pocket clown howitzer or a Walter with a dong attached to a barrel, we don't know. Folks report fewer and fever Napoleons in Ukraine's asylums, a sign of failure of the education system. Lunatics just haven't ever heard about the emperor's life.
"When Švejk subsequently described life in the lunatic asylum, he did so in exceptionally eulogistic terms: 'I really don't know why those loonies get so angry when they're kept there. You can crawl naked on the floor, howl like a jackal, rage and bite. If anyone did this anywhere on the promenade people would be astonished, but there it's the most common or garden thing to do. There's a freedom there which not even Socialists have ever dreamed of. ".
― Jaroslav Hašek, The Good Soldier Švejk.
On the Covid lab leak theory.
Recent senate report is Republican partisan, and even they admit it's inconclusive. There's simply no room for cocksuredness on this one.
[URL]https://abcnews.go.com/Health/new-report-senate-republicans-doubles-covid-lab-leak/story?id=98656740[/URL]
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2813053]On the Covid lab leak theory.
Recent senate report is Republican partisan, and even they admit it's inconclusive. There's simply no room for cocksuredness on this one.
[/QUOTE]Well, there was absolute certainty and that was the point. [URL]https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736[/URL](20) 30418-9/ fulltext.
"We stand together to strongly condemn conspiracy theories suggesting that COVID-19 does not have a natural origin. ".
The whole point of the exercise was not to debate Covid but debunk JM and his ridiculous notion of corroboration as fact. These "scientists" corroborated Covid could not possibly come from a lab which was ridiculous. Facts are facts. You do not need ten people to agree with you that two and two are four.
Furthermore, JM has this black and white perception of the world. With Covid, I think it is around 98% that it came from a lab and there were rumors that animals that were infected with Covid by the lab were sold to the wet market. Apparently, Chinese lab techs are not well paid. Of course, no one will admit to that now.
Based on the facts as put out, I would put it as 99% now that the information leaked about Ukraine was true and the same with the USA blowing up the Nordstrom pipeline. I think what people do not get is how hard it is to write something like Hersh did with the pipeline and get all the facts right. If he got one wrong, the USA government would have jumped him, but they disputed nothing factually. Their responses to both the leak and Hersh's article were weak. What may change my mind is new information not hit jobs on the people bringing us the facts.
So I wrote before about the Polish general and Republican Congressman warning about the limitations on how many more weapons could be given to the Ukrainians.
Well, here are ones on Russia and its limitations:
Iranian drones used by Russia.
[URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToagLbv0140[/URL]
Russia trying to buy arms from Egypt.
[URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxvCENNuDcc[/URL]
So when you look at it, both sides are having a hard time securing arms.
Thing is Russia was #2 in the world in arms sales: [URL]https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/arms_exports/[/URL].
It does make you wonder why Russia is scrambling for arms so much. Is their arms industry being mismanaged? Hurt by sanctions? Or both?
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2812830]You're really swaggering around on this one. LOL Peer reviewed analysis from SARS-2 positive swabs collected from the Wuhan wet market in the early days of the pandemic show the presence of DNA from susceptible animal species. And this is based on a recently released peer reviewed study conducted by international researchers.
[URL]https://zenodo.org/record/7754299[/URL]#. ZE6749 rMJPY.
Also SARS-2 has been discovered in animals many times.
[URL]https://www.fao.org/animal-health/situation-updates/sars-cov-2-in-animals/en[/URL]
Of course none of that will take any dedicated conspiracy theorist or Chinophobe off their soap box, but it might inspire someone like yourself to approach this one with some of the same humility you display when it comes to predicting the outcome of the war in Ukraine. This one is inconclusive.[/QUOTE]Your hypothesis falls short for at least two reasons:
1. The lab-leak hypothesis, as I understand it, postulates that viral genetic sequences taken from animals, such as the ones being researched at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, were manipulated in ways that made them more infectious to humans. That's not inconsistent with the content of your two articles.
A) Your first article has this title: "Genetic evidence of susceptible wildlife in SARS-CoV-2 positive samples at the Huanan Wholesale Seafood Market, Wuhan: Analysis and interpretation of data released by the Chinese Center for Disease Control". And this quote: "Our analysis of these data found that genetic evidence of MULTIPLE animal species was present in locations of the market where SARS-CoV-2 positive environmental samples had been collected".
B) Your second article opens with this passage: "Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus-2 (SARS-CoV-2): A virus that is spreading globally through human-to-human transmission, but has also demonstrated ability to infect MULTIPLE animal species". "with spillover potential from one animal species to another".
C) Both articles, together and separately, make the point that several species of animals are susceptible to either human-to-animal or animal-to-animal transmission of SARS-COV2. Neither article makes the claim that they've pinpointed the source of the original strain. In fact, the specific use of the word "MULTIPLE" (emphasis added, here and above) is a clear indication that the phenomenon they're describing is necessarily one that occurred AFTER the point of origin. Neither article makes the claim, nor do they pretend to do so, that they've definitively proved the animal origin hypothesis OR that they've pinpointed the likely (single) candidate for the species of origin.
2. Re your second article: When you pull back the curtain on the authoritative "Peer Reviewed" label, there's a major fly in the ointment:
A) "We acknowledge that these circumstances are unusual. We are proponents of open data sharing, and ensuring that data from our analyses are broadly accessible in public repositories is our standard practice. Although our colleagues at the CCDC have stated their intention to share these raw sequence data to support the publication currently undergoing review, they remain inaccessible through GISAID at the time of writing".
B) In layman's language, China refuses to share the data and we have no idea if they ever will. So, not sure exactly what "peer reviewed" means, in this context, but they admit that the data itself is being withheld. If the data isn't available for independent review, what exactly were the "peers" looking at?
C) Which begs the question, if the data is favorable to the animal origin hypothesis, and if that hypothesis is favorable to China, why are they withholding it?
To be clear, I'm perfectly open to being persuaded either way. But, so far, the animal-origin narrative has been mostly full of Sound and Fury (signifying nothing).
Here's an example of what I would view as convincing evidence: A bat (or numerous bats) were captured from their natural habitat (near Wuhan, or wherever). Samples were taken, genetic sequences analyzed, and the ORIGINAL (or very close variant) SARS-COV2 strain was detected. Here are our findings, published online for all to evaluate for themselves.
Has anything even close to that happened? Nope, it hasn't. China would be the CLEAR beneficiary. China has MORE than enough resources. But, here we are a few years after the onset of the pandemic, and all that's coming out of China is the sound of crickets.
[QUOTE=Questner;2812878]Recently in an interview held in a shelter-basement type of a bunker, Zed has admitted to carrying a handgun. Is it a plastic pocket clown howitzer or a Walter with a dong attached to a barrel, we don't know. Folks report fewer and fever Napoleons in Ukraine's asylums, a sign of failure of the education system. Lunatics just haven't ever heard about the emperor's life.
"When vejk subsequently described life in the lunatic asylum, he did so in exceptionally eulogistic terms: 'I really don't know why those loonies get so angry when they're kept there. You can crawl naked on the floor, howl like a jackal, rage and bite. If anyone did this anywhere on the promenade people would be astonished, but there it's the most common or garden thing to do. There's a freedom there which not even Socialists have ever dreamed of. ".
― Jaroslav Haek, The Good Soldier vejk.[/QUOTE][URL]https://www.news.com.au/world/europe/vladimir-putin-falls-down-stairs-and-soils-himself-claims-suggest/news-story/4da8667ecd4e6b21c871617f08f5959b[/URL]
Reports are that his KGB babysitters couldn't bring themselves to touch him, so they took turns trying to clean him off with water pistols!
― Jaroslav Jokester, The Good Jester vejk.
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2813053]On the Covid lab leak theory.
Recent senate report is Republican partisan, and even they admit it's inconclusive. There's simply no room for cocksuredness on this one.
[URL]https://abcnews.go.com/Health/new-report-senate-republicans-doubles-covid-lab-leak/story?id=98656740[/URL][/QUOTE]"While their investigation concedes that "both hypotheses are plausible," the nearly 300-page document released by the minority on the Senate health subcommittee makes a circumstantial case that the "PREPONDERANCE of circumstantial evidence" points to "an unintentional research-related incident" -- an undetected aerosol leak -- likely at the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV), as the first spark which would ultimately ignite the pandemic" (emphasis added).
I responded separately to your longer post, but one additional point is that my initial response to Elvis was for the specific purpose of debunking his argument about Hersh, corroboration, etc. He brought up the COVID issue, not me. And the points I made about the flaws in the narrative he cited were not intended as a comprehensive defense of the lab-leak hypothesis, or anything other than popping his Hersh-bubble.
Demonstrating that a particular narrative is flawed, and citing points that favor an alternative narrative, is NOT the same as asserting a definitive conclusion about either narrative. Here's a direct quote from my response:
"As a consequence, from early on I doubted "natural origin" and LEANED TOWARD the lab-created theory. And, as is my general practice, I refused to jump to conclusions and patiently waited for more facts to surface. " (emphasis added).
As the article you posted clearly shows, more facts are surfacing with the passage of time. I'm persuaded solely by evidence and facts, full stop. As things stand right now, the PREPONDERANCE of that evidence leans toward the lab-leak hypothesis, which is why I LEAN TOWARD that position. If new evidence surfaces, I'll be happy to consider it.
If there's anything about which I'm "cocksure," it's my ability to sort through what's presented as evidence and separate the wheat from the chaff.
Any questions?
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2813160]So I wrote before about the Polish general and Republican Congressman warning about the limitations on how many more weapons could be given to the Ukrainians.
Well, here are ones on Russia and its limitations:
Iranian drones used by Russia.
[URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToagLbv0140[/URL]
Russia trying to buy arms from Egypt.
[URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxvCENNuDcc[/URL]
So when you look at it, both sides are having a hard time securing arms.
Thing is Russia was #2 in the world in arms sales: [URL]https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/arms_exports/[/URL].
It does make you wonder why Russia is scrambling for arms so much. Is their arms industry being mismanaged? Hurt by sanctions? Or both?[/QUOTE]We have enough ammo to bury everyone and everything several times in a row plus a bit more. All the goals of the SMO are going to be achieved. Yes, there are and there were cases of mismanagement. With some brief interruptions mismanagement is a historical constant. It only leads to ingenuity and new levels of freedom to operate fast when needed. Don't forget we have a border and a railway into NK and have secured the military and technical agreement with PRC, an unprecedented one which has been in waiting for the long 45 years, and which can backstop any military effort. The sanctions only propel the economy forward.
It's highly irrelevant whatever any media posts, no one cares about it. Here is a recent example of such nonsense:
[URL]https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2023/06/counteroffensive-ukraine-zelensky-crimea/673781/[/URL]
Here is some really scary stuff (with one Secretary of Hate burning in hell):
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2813156]Well, there was absolute certainty and that was the point. [URL]https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736[/URL](20) 30418-9/ fulltext.
"We stand together to strongly condemn conspiracy theories suggesting that COVID-19 does not have a natural origin. ".
The whole point of the exercise was not to debate Covid but debunk JM and his ridiculous notion of corroboration as fact. These "scientists" corroborated Covid could not possibly come from a lab which was ridiculous. Facts are facts. You do not need ten people to agree with you that two and two are four.
Furthermore, JM has this black and white perception of the world. With Covid, I think it is around 98% that it came from a lab and there were rumors that animals that were infected with Covid by the lab were sold to the wet market. Apparently, Chinese lab techs are not well paid. Of course, no one will admit to that now.
Based on the facts as put out, I would put it as 99% now that the information leaked about Ukraine was true and the same with the USA blowing up the Nordstrom pipeline. I think what people do not get is how hard it is to write something like Hersh did with the pipeline and get all the facts right. If he got one wrong, the USA government would have jumped him, but they disputed nothing factually. Their responses to both the leak and Hersh's article were weak. What may change my mind is new information not hit jobs on the people bringing us the facts.[/QUOTE]You keep talking about Hersh's "facts," but all they amount to are unverified claims, nothing more.
If you can point to a third party who has verified any of Hersh's claims, please do so. Otherwise, it's mere narrative. In fact, why doesn't Hersh himself point out examples of verification? If there are any out there, he'd be in the best position to know. Has he followed up with anything that highlights points of verification? If so, I haven't seen it. So what we're left with is Hersh's word, and only HIS word.
― Serious accusations demand serious evidence, right? Here's a thought experiment for you:
1. You've been accused of a serious crime, let's use murder for this example.
2. A very persuasive witness testifies for the prosecution, with a HIGH level of detail, about all the "facts" that point to you as the murderer.
3. The witness refuses to answer any cross-examination questions. Furthermore, the witness characterizes any questions as a personal attack.
4. The prosecution fails to present any other witnesses, or any other pieces of evidence, that would tend to validate the single witness's account. AND, here's an interesting twist, the prosecutor and the witness are the SAME person!
5. In the jury deliberation room, Juror 1 says "Wow, that witness was really persuasive and he had a LOT of detailed facts". Juror 2 says "Wait a minute. These are serious charges, and all we have is the unverified testimony of a single witness. I need more than that".
Question: Both jurors have been nominated to be the foreperson of the jury that will decide your fate. Which one would you prefer?
P.S. While you obviously believe that failing to issue some kind of point-by-point rebuttal amounts to an admission that Hersh's story is true, others would likely see such a rebuttal in a much different way. "Hey! The US govt wouldn't issue such a specific rebuttal if there wasn't something there".
So, since there's a definite possibility that anything beyond a flat denial could be turned into a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" double-edged sword, what would be the point of going down that road?
[URL]https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230208-white-house-rejects-report-that-us-was-behind-nord-stream-sabotage[/URL]
Note: NOTHING in any of the above means that I'm not open to the possibility that the US bombed the pipeline, or was involved in it. But only verifiable facts can back up that serious accusation, not someone's personal narrative.
[QUOTE=Questner;2813196]We have enough ammo to bury everyone and everything several times in a row plus a bit more..... Don't forget we have a border and a railway into NK and have secured the military and technical agreement with PRC, an unprecedented one which has been in waiting for the long 45 years, and which can backstop any military effort.....
l):[/QUOTE]HOLD UP. LOL. This has to be the most hilarious straight faced satire I've ever read if you're honestly suggesting that North Korea and China will be the saviors of Russia. China is using tech from the 90's that barely works (and was stolen by the way). North Korea is using mostly tech from the 60's and has a few nuclear missiles that it can't even properly aim. Hell, the country can't even feed it's people.
I wish I could watch some of the Russian propaganda some time because these hot takes are just too much LOL.
[QUOTE=Questner;2813196]We have enough ammo to bury everyone and everything several times in a row plus a bit more.[/QUOTE]"We (Wagner) have only 10-15% of the shells that we need," he said, blaming the leadership of the Russian army. He spoke in an interview with Russian pro-Kremlin war correspondent Semyon Pegov".
[QUOTE]All the goals of the SMO are going to be achieved.[/QUOTE]"Prigozhin said he expected a Ukrainian counterattack in mid-May. "This counteroffensive could become a tragedy for our country," he said".
[QUOTE]The sanctions only propel the economy forward.
[/QUOTE]Except when it comes to tanks, which are being propelled backward (in time)!
[URL]https://eurasiantimes.com/russian-tanks-are-tanking-due-to-ukraine-war-report-reveals/[/URL]
"A recent report from the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) analyzes the impact of sanctions on Russia's defense industry and its effect on the war in Ukraine".
"According to the report, Russia has lost between 1,845 to 3,511 tanks in Ukraine and is believed to hold roughly 5,000 tanks in reserve".
"This ultimately forced Russia to bring older Soviet-era tanks manufactured decades before Russia's military modernization program began in 2011".
Golly, gee! Where are all the CCP and NORK tanks?
[QUOTE]
It's highly irrelevant whatever any media posts, no one cares about it.[/QUOTE]Is it still irrelevant when a prominent figure in the Russian war effort, Prigozhin, gives an interview to Russian media? I bet the Russian MilBloggers care, and Girkin's Angry Patriots Club. In fact, I bet they're paying close attention to every word.
[URL]https://www.lemonde.fr/en/russia/article/2023/05/01/wagner-chief-says-ukraine-counterattack-could-be-tragedy-for-russia_6025013_140.html[/URL]
[QUOTE=Questner;2813196]We have enough ammo to bury everyone and everything several times in a row plus a bit more. All the goals of the SMO are going to be achieved. Yes, there are and there were cases of mismanagement. With some brief interruptions mismanagement is a historical constant. It only leads to ingenuity and new levels of freedom to operate fast when needed. Don't forget we have a border and a railway into NK and have secured the military and technical agreement with PRC, an unprecedented one which has been in waiting for the long 45 years, and which can backstop any military effort. The sanctions only propel the economy forward.[/QUOTE]Who the fuck is "We"? Do you represent Putin's government in this monger forum? Is that what "you" are?
Hey, "you" have already lost. Sanctions are working. Your economy is already in the dumpster. You've gambled everything and lost. Your citizens will soon beat the hell out of each other in bread lines. Maybe it will take a year. Maybe two, if you're lucky. But you're getting there. Fast.
Say Hi to Evgeny Prigozhin, a former rapist who was made to suck dicks in prison for his sins. That's your next emperor.
[QUOTE=Questner;2813196]We have enough ammo to bury everyone and everything several times in a row plus a bit more.[/QUOTE]You will be subjugated and never again be any kind of world power. Resources plundered by the chinese, women fucked by them and men cleaning their pools.
[URL]https://www.reuters.com/markets/tinder-owner-match-group-swipes-left-russia-pledging-exit-by-june-30-2023-05-02/[/URL]
"It's not a good look for a trusted brand to be continuing operations in a nation where the head of state has been indicted by the International Criminal Court" (real quote).
Off the record, Tinder CEO is reported to have said "It's impossible for Tinder to operate within a country that's so totally fucked!" (sarc quote).
[QUOTE=VinDici;2813286]You will be subjugated and never again be any kind of world power. Resources plundered by the chinese, women fucked by them and men cleaning their pools.[/QUOTE]Well, even though the days of the Russian Empire are numbered, any country with 6,000 nukes is destined to be some kind of world power, even if its future population is reduced to eating beets and shitting in outhouses.
The Russians have sold China 25 tons of enriched uranium, so it won't be long until China becomes the third nuclear mega-player in the world.
[URL]https://eurasiantimes.com/new-chinas-cfr-600-facility-boosted-by-russian-enriched-uranium[/URL]
[QUOTE=Chicago85;2813211]HOLD UP. LOL. This has to be the most hilarious straight faced satire I've ever read if you're honestly suggesting that North Korea and China will be the saviors of Russia. China is using tech from the 90's that barely works (and was stolen by the way). North Korea is using mostly tech from the 60's and has a few nuclear missiles that it can't even properly aim. Hell, the country can't even feed it's people.
I wish I could watch some of the Russian propaganda some time because these hot takes are just too much LOL.[/QUOTE]Here is my suggestion, watch 'The Battle of Chosin' here: [URL]https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/chosin/[/URL] and then have a coffee break with Mark Milley and laugh into his face.
We of course chose our Savior in the 9th Century AD.
Some daily routine from the Colonel: [URL]https://youtu.be/2Rkr3YGKF9A[/URL].
'Dear, take this poison! I don't want to wash the walls'.
[QUOTE=Questner;2813455]Here is my suggestion, watch 'The Battle of Chosin' here: [URL]https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/chosin/[/URL] and then have a coffee break with Mark Milley and laugh into his face.
We of course chose our Savior in the 9th Century AD.[/QUOTE]Take Putin's dick out of your mouth, and remove your hands from his asshole. Those two habits of yours perfectly explain why everything you post is incoherent bullshit.
Do you babble on like this in real life? If so, it must truly suck for anyone unlucky enough to be around you. Pathetic doesn't even begin to describe it.
[QUOTE=Questner;2813458]Some daily routine from the Colonel: [URL]https://youtu.be/2Rkr3YGKF9A[/URL].
'Dear, take this poison! I don't want to wash the walls'.[/QUOTE]Send more hapless peasants to die in my hopeless meat grinder of a war.
Ruin the future for generations of Russians.
Shit myself.
Get cleaned up.
Grovel on my knees before Master Xi.
Repeat the same hopeless, hapless, cycle all over again.
[QUOTE=Questner;2813196]We have enough ammo to bury everyone and everything several times in a row plus a bit more. All the goals of the SMO are going to be achieved. Yes, there are and there were cases of mismanagement. With some brief interruptions mismanagement is a historical constant. It only leads to ingenuity and new levels of freedom to operate fast when needed. Don't forget we have a border and a railway into NK and have secured the military and technical agreement with PRC, an unprecedented one which has been in waiting for the long 45 years, and which can backstop any military effort. The sanctions only propel the economy forward.[/QUOTE]My point in showing this was that if you look at both sides there is an issue with munitions. The key to me is if the West continues to supply Ukraine. I think JM has the idea that the West's goal was Ukrainian victory but I think it really was to weaken Russia. Hell, the Dems are still convinced that Putin was responsible for Trump and the 2016 victory. Yeah, Russia has North Korea, and North Korea buys from China so while the Chinese say they are not helping Russia too much, this could be a way around that.
Yeah, that Atlantic article is terribly wishful thinking IMO and love that pic of the ladies. LOL.
This is just my opinion but the Western nations seem to be getting a bit desperate:
[URL]https://www.zerohedge.com/political/murdochs-spoke-zelenskyy-weeks-firing-anti-war-host-tucker-carlson[/URL]
Both Rupert and Lachlan Murdoch spoke with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy shortly before firing Fox News' anti-war host Tucker Carlson, who has repeatedly asked why the United States is sending vast resources to one of the most historically corrupt nations on the planet while neglecting its own citizens.
I think Carlson had a good point. We are on the verge of a debt crisis, and I am still not seeing much value for the USA in this war.
And this: [URL]https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/kirby-claims-whopping-100000-russian-casualties-bakhmut-alone[/URL].
In a Monday press briefing National Security Council spokesman John Kirby issued a surprisingly high estimate of Russian casualties which he said took place since December fighting in the contested Donetsk city of Bakhmut.
He said Russian forces have suffered over 100,000 total casualties. Including about 20,000 soldiers killed in combat and another 80,000 wounded.
End of link. To me, that number just sounds like total bullshit.
And this: [URL]https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/why-long-awaited-ukrainian-counteroffensive-delayed[/URL].
So Kirby paints a picture of a teetering Russian army, and still there's no counteroffensive on the horizon. "But for the moment, they are barely moving forward, stalled not by ferocious Russian attacks, but by an enemy no less tenacious: the viscous central Ukrainian mud," The New York Times wrote Monday. A Ukrainian officer interviewed by the Times acknowledged that "Until the weather improves, there will be no counteroffensive. " This is because: "the vehicles will get stuck and then what will we do if the shooting starts?
The report further describes why Ukraine is holding off in saying, "Deep and black, with a consistency similar to a mixture of cookie dough and wet cement, the spring mud is one obstacle that the Ukrainian military, for all its ingenuity, finds difficult to overcome. " Further "It jams weapons and steals the boots from soldiers' feet. Wheels and treads spin and spin, only digging military vehicles deeper into the mire. ".
My comment: This mud is an excuse. It has been known about forever.
Last week, NATO's top commander, US Army General Christopher Cavoli stated that the Russian army operating in Ukraine is larger than when the Kremlin launched its special military operation and the Ukrainians "have to be better than the Russian force they will face" and decide when and where they will strike.
Cavoli said Russia has strategic depth in manpower and has only lost one warship and about 80 fighters and tactical bombers in an air fleet numbering about 1,000 so far. The general gently contradicted Defence Secretary Lloyd Austin and Chief of General Staff Gen. Mark Milley who have been propagating that Russia is on the brink of defeat.
Gen. Cavoli's testimony came soon after the leaked Pentagon documents recently, which has presented a grim picture of the state of Kiev's military preparedness and the Biden Administration's lack of confidence in the Zelensky regime.
The former CIA analyst Ray McGovern told China's CGTN, "I believe it could be that some senior policymakers in the Pentagon at the highest reaches of the Department of Defense have decided, 'You know, it's a fool's errand in Ukraine. Maybe, we got to get out the truth. Maybe, we got to expose people like Joint Chief of Staff Milley and Secretary Austin for the lies they have told about Ukrainian progress and Russians being just pulverised. And, maybe, that will stop this widening of the war. ' ".
The well-known former CIA analyst Larry Johnson shares the same view. He wrote: "This looks like a controlled, directed leak. The leaked material is not random intelligence material. It is designed to tell several stories. The most prominent is the deterioration of Ukrainian capabilities and the major obstacles confronting the United States and the rest of NATO in supplying badly needed air defence, artillery shells, artillery pieces and tanks. In other words, Ukraine is going to crash and burn. ".
End of link. Zero hedge is unabashedly pro-Russia and pro-Putin but they are giving another side of things we are not seeing. People can take these articles for what they want, but I do not trust Miley and Austin for shit.
My reading of this mixed bag of information is things are going really badly for Ukraine. It is just my opinion, but I think the guys pushing the Ukraine can win narrative are getting desperate and are flat out lying now. I could be wrong, but that is my take.
[QUOTE=Questner;2813458]Orc grunting noises[/QUOTE]Seems that people take war crimes seriously, the one painting the walls will be Putin.
According to CNN:
[QUOTE]Russia has suffered more than 100,000 casualties since December, including over 20,000 dead, according to White House estimates. The Kremlin has rejected the numbers.[/QUOTE]I have to side with the Kremlin here although for a reason they wouldn't like.
There is no way the Russians would only suffer 1 death for every 4 wounded. Yes, those are the "normal" proportions for "normal" modern warfare, but this war is anything but normal. Their wounded do not get pulled from the battlefield unless they can walk or crawl. They're left to die in agony that may last for days. The Russians aren't interested in pulling the wounded who couldn't be sent back to the meatgrinder. The medics too are doing everything they can to avoid risking their own lives pulling the wounded under the enemy fire.
And then, there are commanders who simply shoot their wounded who can't move.
[URL]https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10820515/Putins-commanders-slaughtering-wounded-soldiers-captured-Russian-troops-reveal.html[/URL]
The level of cynicism and callousness toward their own comrades is almost unimaginable, but it is what it is.
Not a "schadenfreude" on my part. If the Russian casualties amount to 100,000, it means at least half of them are dead. It's a simple logic.
[QUOTE=Jmsuttr;2811619]Can you find the frankness needed to answer a simple question with an equally simple answer? Fuck the war, in its generalized and abstract sense, and fuck Realpolitik and similar issues. So, let's try this again. Will the third time be a charm, or a strikeout?
"Here's a video interview of a Wagner mercenary who has returned to Russia from fighting in Ukraine. In the interview, he states (among other disclosures) that he was given explicit orders to kill civilians, including children. In one graphic passage, he talks about shooting a girl who was about 5 or 6 years of age. He killed her with a shot to the head.
[URL]https://twitter.com/igorsushko/statu...13152414732288[/URL]
Here's my challenge to you: Can you describe, in a simple single sentence, your reaction as a moral being to this (IMO) quintessential example of evil?
Please don't do yourself a disservice by engaging in some (for this particular moral issue) detached pundit-style discussion of a geopolitical or policy topic. It's a simple question that begs an equally simple answer"..[/QUOTE]JM, I answered your question. I didn't waver or equivocate. The Russian atrocities are disgusting and should be punished to the extent possible. I appreciate your impassioned support and belief in the Ukraine. I'm not challenging the Ukraine's right to their pre-2014 borders.
Our heated exchange started with a discussion about Crimea as a must-have Ukrainian objective and Crimea's ties to Russia or lack thereof. The fact that I see discussions all over the internet on the Crimea means that opinions are forming on the peninsula being a key Ukrainian objective.
Here's an interesting passage from Politico to give context:
"And this time, more western policy-makers — providing the arms, the financing and the diplomatic support necessary for Ukraine to finally achieve its goal of retaking "every inch" of Russian-occupied Ukraine — are increasingly along for the ride. "No matter what the Ukrainians decide about Crimea in terms of where they choose to fight. Ukraine is not going to be safe unless Crimea is at a minimum, at a minimum, demilitarized," undersecretary of state Victoria Nuland recently said. Or as Pentagon spokesperson Sabrina Singh announced last month, the USA Will back Ukraine's efforts to reclaim the peninsula it first lost nearly a decade ago. ".
I will say this again. I don't care who tries to twist it or attack me. A political settlement as opposed to a sweeping military victory will likely be necessary to end the hostilities. You have mentioned the collapse of the Putin regime as a result of Ukrainian battlefield successes. This too is really a political solution. While we can all hope, it's also not something to count on as the impetus for terminating the war.
(Sorry for my delay in responding. I've been busy and I wanted to try to respond thoughtfully without trying to raise the heat unnecessarily.).
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2813500]My point in showing this was that if you look at both sides there is an issue with munitions. The key to me is if the West continues to supply Ukraine. I think JM has the idea that the West's goal was Ukrainian victory but I think it really was to weaken Russia. Hell, the Dems are still convinced that Putin was responsible for Trump and the 2016 victory. Yeah, Russia has North Korea, and North Korea buys from China so while the Chinese say they are not helping Russia too much, this could be a way around that.
Yeah, that Atlantic article is terribly wishful thinking IMO and love that pic of the ladies. LOL.
This is just my opinion but the Western nations seem to be getting a bit desperate:
[URL]https://www.zerohedge.com/political/murdochs-spoke-zelenskyy-weeks-firing-anti-war-host-tucker-carlson[/URL]
Both Rupert and Lachlan Murdoch spoke with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy shortly before firing Fox News' anti-war host Tucker Carlson, who has repeatedly asked why the United States is sending vast resources to one of the most historically corrupt nations on the planet while neglecting its own citizens.
I think Carlson had a good point. We are on the verge of a debt crisis, and I am still not seeing much value for the USA in this war.
And this: [URL]https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/kirby-claims-whopping-100000-russian-casualties-bakhmut-alone[/URL].
In a Monday press briefing National Security Council spokesman John Kirby issued a surprisingly high estimate of Russian casualties which he said took place since December fighting in the contested Donetsk city of Bakhmut.[/QUOTE]And, when it comes to opinion, there's no way to say 100% whether it's right or wrong. Actually, let me qualify that a bit. You can judge opinions using 20-20 hindsight, but upcoming events are a different matter. A good track record is a positive thing, but it's no guarantee that future predictions will be correct. And a bad track record is a negative thing, but it's no guarantee that future predictions will be wrong.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion but, unless and until what they "think" and "predict" is reflected in facts on the ground, all that opinion = exactly zero. And aggregating opinion on top of opinion doesn't change that calculus.
And it's also fair to point out how many of the pundits you cite are pro-Russia, anti-Ukraine, or both. Larry Johnson, for example, has a track record of appearing on Russian and Chinese propaganda outlets. He's entitled to his opinion but it's worth observing that he's arguably not exactly a neutral observer.
That's not to say there aren't a number of pro-Ukraine analysts and pundits, such as retired generals Ben Hodges and Mark Hertling. And, while their military expertise is head and shoulders above most, that's still no guarantee.
All the focus on opinion is completely wrongheaded, IMO (pun intended), as the war will be decided on the battlefield. And I'll take an ounce of factual info over a ton of opinion any day.
P.S. About mud being an excuse, if you follow any of the channels that show video of areas near the frontlines, you'd see the reality of the rasputitsa. There's a reason this season has a specific name. It was a factor in WW-II campaigns and weather has always been a key factor in battle. Assuming a Ukrainian offensive would rely heavily on the use of tanks and vehicles, they'd be foolish to attack prematurely. Bottom line, you don't know, I don't know, and opinions are a dime a dozen.
P. P.S. Your opinion as to what I think is even less relevant than all the BS above. I don't give a fuck about the West's agenda. I back Ukraine because they're defending themselves against aggression, and the right of self-defense is a moral absolute. And I oppose Russia because they are the aggressor. And, building on that latter fact, I DESPISE Putin and his Orcs because they're pursuing their aggression in a depraved, atrocity-laden way. If I merely opposed them, I would simply wish for them to fail and leave Ukraine. But, because I despise and hate them for the cruelties and atrocities they've committed, my wish for every perpetrator is that they die horribly (at least as horribly as their victims) and burn in lowest circle of hell. Is that clear enough for you?
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2813514]According to CNN:
I have to side with the Kremlin here although for a reason they wouldn't like.
There is no way the Russians would only suffer 1 death for every 4 wounded. Yes, those are the "normal" proportions for "normal" modern warfare, but this war is anything but normal. Their wounded do not get pulled from the battlefield unless they can walk or crawl. They're left to die in agony that may last for days. The Russians aren't interested in pulling the wounded who couldn't be sent back to the meatgrinder. The medics too are doing everything they can to avoid risking their own lives pulling the wounded under the enemy fire.
And then, there are commanders who simply shoot their wounded who can't move.
[URL]https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10820515/Putins-commanders-slaughtering-wounded-soldiers-captured-Russian-troops-reveal.html[/URL]
The level of cynicism and callousness toward their own comrades is almost unimaginable, but it is what it is.
Not a "schadenfreude" on my part. If the Russian casualties amount to 100,000, it means at least half of them are dead. It's a simple logic.[/QUOTE]You guys have to stop reading and watching CNN. When is the last time they have told the truth about anything.
[QUOTE=WyattEarp;2813645]Our heated exchange started with a discussion about Crimea as a must-have Ukrainian objective and Crimea's ties to Russia or lack thereof.[/QUOTE]No, the "heated" part of the exchange started with you presuming to tell me that I was taking things too personally. And that led me to challenge you, repeatedly and directly, to take that geopolitical stick out of your ass and respond to Russia's atrocities on a strictly personal and moral plane. I even provided you with an example of a particularly heinous act, the cold-blooded shooting of a young girl in the head, in hopes of knocking you out of your detached, navel-gazing mode.
Even now, after a cursory acknowledgement of Russian atrocities, presented as though you're viewing them through a long-distance, indifferent lens, you rush to take refuge under your abstract geopolitical comfort blanket. I guess that stick up your ass must be surgically attached, huh?
Oh, and if you're wondering why I edited out all the ancillary geopolitical BS you posted, you'll find the answer in the paragraph below. I used it in my response to Elvis but it's equally applicable here.
"I don't give a fuck about the West's agenda. I back Ukraine because they're defending themselves against aggression, and the right of self-defense is a moral absolute. And I oppose Russia because they are the aggressor. And, building on that latter fact, I DESPISE Putin and his Orcs because they're pursuing their aggression in a depraved, atrocity-laden way. If I merely opposed them, I would simply wish for them to fail and leave Ukraine. But, because I despise and hate them for the cruelties and atrocities they've committed, my wish for every perpetrator is that they die horribly (at least as horribly as their victims) and burn in lowest circle of hell".
That's it in a nutshell, 100% morality and 0% geopolitics. Any questions?
When a majority of Russians hear of (Tucker) Carlson the image of Karlsson-on-the-Roof comes to mind. Karlsson is a character in a series of children's books by the Swedish author Astrid Lindgren.
Of course, we can debate if 150 of 152 mm artillery shells is enough to suppress a platoon on a hectare. Pulverizing everything is not a goal of this war. The West of course will supply until one moment it is going to stop. This type of support is unconscionable and inevitably will end in ignominy. The sooner the gang at the scene in Kiev will follow the fate of the former government of South Vietnam the better.
[QUOTE=Questner;2813731]When a majority of Russians hear of Putin the image of a pathetic loser comes to mind. Pathetic post-Soviet losers, like Putin, Yeltsin, and Medvedev, are characters in a series of comic books by the Russian author Havuhadinov.
Of course, we can debate if tossing one pathetic loser is enough to suppress a platoon on a hectare, or whether two or three are needed. Pulverizing every last Orc is a goal of this war. The West of course will supply until one moment it is going to shove it up Putin's ass. This type of support is laudable and inevitably will end in Russia's ignominy. The sooner the gang at the scene in Moscow will follow the fate of the current government of North Korea the better.[/QUOTE]Couldn't agree more! Keep these nuggets coming!
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2813500]My point in showing this was that if you look at both sides there is an issue with munitions. The key to me is if the West continues to supply Ukraine. I think JM has the idea that the West's goal was Ukrainian victory but I think it really was to weaken Russia. Hell, the Dems are still convinced that Putin was responsible for Trump and the 2016 victory. Yeah, Russia has North Korea, and North Korea buys from China so while the Chinese say they are not helping Russia too much, this could be a way around that.
Yeah, that Atlantic article is terribly wishful thinking IMO and love that pic of the ladies. LOL.
This is just my opinion but the Western nations seem to be getting a bit desperate:
[URL]https://www.zerohedge.com/political/murdochs-spoke-zelenskyy-weeks-firing-anti-war-host-tucker-carlson[/URL]
Both Rupert and Lachlan Murdoch spoke with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy shortly before firing Fox News' anti-war host Tucker Carlson, who has repeatedly asked why the United States is sending vast resources to one of the most historically corrupt nations on the planet while neglecting its own citizens.
I think Carlson had a good point. We are on the verge of a debt crisis, and I am still not seeing much value for the USA in this war.
And this: [URL]https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/kirby-claims-whopping-100000-russian-casualties-bakhmut-alone[/URL].
In a Monday press briefing National Security Council spokesman John Kirby issued a surprisingly high estimate of Russian casualties which he said took place since December fighting in the contested Donetsk city of Bakhmut.
He said Russian forces have suffered over 100,000 total casualties. Including about 20,000 soldiers killed in combat and another 80,000 wounded.
End of link. To me, that number just sounds like total bullshit.
And this: [URL]https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/why-long-awaited-ukrainian-counteroffensive-delayed[/URL].
So Kirby paints a picture of a teetering Russian army, and still there's no counteroffensive on the horizon. "But for the moment, they are barely moving forward, stalled not by ferocious Russian attacks, but by an enemy no less tenacious: the viscous central Ukrainian mud," The New York Times wrote Monday. A Ukrainian officer interviewed by the Times acknowledged that "Until the weather improves, there will be no counteroffensive. " This is because: "the vehicles will get stuck and then what will we do if the shooting starts?
The report further describes why Ukraine is holding off in saying, "Deep and black, with a consistency similar to a mixture of cookie dough and wet cement, the spring mud is one obstacle that the Ukrainian military, for all its ingenuity, finds difficult to overcome. " Further "It jams weapons and steals the boots from soldiers' feet. Wheels and treads spin and spin, only digging military vehicles deeper into the mire. ".
My comment: This mud is an excuse. It has been known about forever.
Last week, NATO's top commander, US Army General Christopher Cavoli stated that the Russian army operating in Ukraine is larger than when the Kremlin launched its special military operation and the Ukrainians "have to be better than the Russian force they will face" and decide when and where they will strike.
Cavoli said Russia has strategic depth in manpower and has only lost one warship and about 80 fighters and tactical bombers in an air fleet numbering about 1,000 so far. The general gently contradicted Defence Secretary Lloyd Austin and Chief of General Staff Gen. Mark Milley who have been propagating that Russia is on the brink of defeat.
Gen. Cavoli's testimony came soon after the leaked Pentagon documents recently, which has presented a grim picture of the state of Kiev's military preparedness and the Biden Administration's lack of confidence in the Zelensky regime.
The former CIA analyst Ray McGovern told China's CGTN, "I believe it could be that some senior policymakers in the Pentagon at the highest reaches of the Department of Defense have decided, 'You know, it's a fool's errand in Ukraine. Maybe, we got to get out the truth. Maybe, we got to expose people like Joint Chief of Staff Milley and Secretary Austin for the lies they have told about Ukrainian progress and Russians being just pulverised. And, maybe, that will stop this widening of the war. ' ".
The well-known former CIA analyst Larry Johnson shares the same view. He wrote: "This looks like a controlled, directed leak. The leaked material is not random intelligence material. It is designed to tell several stories. The most prominent is the deterioration of Ukrainian capabilities and the major obstacles confronting the United States and the rest of NATO in supplying badly needed air defence, artillery shells, artillery pieces and tanks. In other words, Ukraine is going to crash and burn. ".
End of link. Zero hedge is unabashedly pro-Russia and pro-Putin but they are giving another side of things we are not seeing. People can take these articles for what they want, but I do not trust Miley and Austin for shit.
My reading of this mixed bag of information is things are going really badly for Ukraine. It is just my opinion, but I think the guys pushing the Ukraine can win narrative are getting desperate and are flat out lying now. I could be wrong, but that is my take.[/QUOTE]Elvis, I think the next 2-4 weeks are crucial for Ukraine military. If they can somehow mount spring offensive, (I have my doubts), they might have a chance. They have to gain some momentum quickly or they will be wiped out. Time will tell, but the media is starting to change their tune that maybe Ukraine military is starting to lose. I think we will have our answer the first week in June maybe sooner.
Maybe, Biden and the allies will come to there senses at start a road to piece, but there are no signs of this happening, they just keep doubling down.
[QUOTE=Questner;2813731]Orc having an opinion on press freedom.[/QUOTE]Tell us again how someone is allowed to freely express their opinion when there are muscovites around?
[QUOTE=Jmsuttr;2813720]No, the "heated" part of the exchange started with you presuming to tell me that I was taking things too personally. And that led me to challenge you, repeatedly and directly, to take that geopolitical stick out of your ass and respond to Russia's atrocities on a strictly personal and moral plane. I even provided you with an example of a particularly heinous act, the cold-blooded shooting of a young girl in the head, in hopes of knocking you out of your detached, navel-gazing mode.
Even now, after a cursory acknowledgement of Russian atrocities, presented as though you're viewing them through a long-distance, indifferent lens, you rush to take refuge under your abstract geopolitical comfort blanket. I guess that stick up your ass must be surgically attached, huh?
Oh, and if you're wondering why I edited out all the ancillary geopolitical BS you posted, you'll find the answer in the paragraph below. I used it in my response to Elvis but it's equally applicable here.[/QUOTE]I'm guessing you are here to try to persuade others that the Ukraine War is a cause we must commit to resolutely. However, I don't see you persuading. Instead, you are shouting down on someone who has been in mostly support of your posts. No one has to be in 100% agreement with your perspective to show loyalty to the Ukrainian cause.
I do think you take it too personally. So what? I don't want to here aggressive retorts that I don't care about the Russian atrocities. Or the the old social media standby "you're not answering my question" repeatedly to establish dominance over someone and the thread.
If you want to be effective at delivering your message, I would dial it down a bit. Maybe quite a bit. Let some opinions breathe without feeling compelled to suffocate anyone whose opinion doesn't conform to yours. In case you haven't noticed, this thread is the same hand full of people shouting at each other day-in and day-out on an "anonymous fuckboard."
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2813748]Elvis, I think the next 2-4 weeks are crucial for Ukraine military. If they can somehow mount spring offensive, (I have my doubts), they might have a chance.[/QUOTE]The 2-4 week timeline is reasonable, although weather is an important factor, as I mentioned in my response to Elvis, and that's beyond anyone's control. The last thing Ukraine will want is to start an offensive and get (literally) bogged down.
And I have no doubt that Ukraine will launch an offensive. They've announced it, and everyone (internally and externally) expects it. In anticipation they've been training troops and accumulating resources so, given the circumstances, inaction would understandably be viewed as failure.
To what degree that offensive succeeds is a different matter. That remains to be seen, although it's relevant to point out that Ukraine has demonstrated an ability to surprise.
[QUOTE]They have to gain some momentum quickly or they will be wiped out.[/QUOTE]Really? What's your definition of momentum? And what evidence can you present that Russia's military currently has the capacity to do any "wiping" out? With the exception of perhaps Bakhmut, which has turned into a meat-grinder attritional battle, Russia has either been going backwards or remained static. If you have sources to back up your assessment that Russia retains significant "wiped out" capability, kindly share some links.
[QUOTE]Time will tell, but the media is starting to change their tune that maybe Ukraine military is starting to lose.[/QUOTE]Which media, specifically? And are these fact-based stories or opinion pieces? The latter, as I've repeatedly pointed out, have mostly been wrong and are a dime a dozen.
[QUOTE]I think we will have our answer the first week in June maybe sooner.[/QUOTE]Again, weather-dependent but not an unreasonable timeline.
[QUOTE]Maybe, Biden and the allies will come to there senses at start a road to piece, but there are no signs of this happening, they just keep doubling down.[/QUOTE]The definition of peace depends on who you ask. For Russia, it means "Give us what we want, all or a significant part of Ukraine." For Ukraine it means reclaiming their 1991 borders and gaining assurances (via NATO membership or otherwise) that future aggression by Russia will be deterred. Those positions are poles apart, neither side shows any inclination to negotiate, and neither side's allies show either the ability or inclination to push either party to the negotiating table.
Among the Western allies, there are strong voices who view the conflict as being a) a continuation of Russia's 2014 aggression; b) more than simply a dispute between two states; c) likely to raise the threat level in Europe if Russian aggression is rewarded. Among those voices are (at a minimum) the Baltics, Poland, and the Nordics. And those views are so strongly held that they can't and won't be disregarded by larger allies.
Also, as far as doubling-down is concerned, it's actually quite a rational strategy if you believe you hold a winning hand. Whether or not that's the case will only be known with the benefit of hindsight.
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2811778]Nice seeing you put Wyatt on the spot for the third time, but this "abstract" "generalized" "realpolitik" softcore isolationism occasionally seasoned with sympathy for Russian propaganda is all we've gotten from Wyatt for the last 14 months, and with little consideration to the unfolding narrative. If you've read one of his posts you've read them all, thus for the most part I've stopped reading them.
I'll add that with someone like Elvis it's direct. You know exactly what you are getting and where's he coming from. Wyatt's ad nauseam and disingenuous pseudo-intellectualism though is especially nauseating.
And yes, the Russians are war criminals. Their actions should invoke an emotional reaction from anyone with a moral conscience. Fact is though that many on the planet do not have one. Life is only viewed and lived with the aim of what pleasures they can personally get out of it. It's thus very easy and perfectly natural for them to operate in the abstract when it comes to the tribulations of other people.[/QUOTE]Apparently Paulie, it is lost on you that you are in the International Sex Guide website on a thread called Stupid Shit in Kyiv calling another participant a pseudo-intellectual. JM seems to have self-awareness that we are on a sex forum. I believe he called it an "anonymous fuckboard".
Part of the reason the various "Stupid Shit" threads were created here was the moderators were tired of having to moderate the hyperaggressive pundits and self-proclaimed experts that routinely turn up on ISG to tell everyone how everything works and how they should think. I am doing neither. I have given my opinion on how the war might end. I just don't see how it ends in the nice, neat resolution that some others believe.
If it helps you understand the world better to divide everybody into two opposing camps with strict lines, you do what you got to do. Most Americans are pragmatic about the Ukraine war. Hope for the best, but prepare for something less might be a good way to put it. As far as this thread, I'm perfectly comfortable disagreeing with Elvis, ignoring the Russophiles and challenging JM on occasion all in a civil manner.
If you believe that the Ukrainians will push back the Russians to the pre-2014 borders including out of Crimea and the conflict will mostly be over. That is just an opinion. It could play out that way. I have simply offered an opinion, consistently I might add, that is questioning the ability to achieve an ideal outcome. That doesn't mean I don't support the Ukrainians.
You should be telling us your opinion on how the war ends. Basically, you have to write an ending. While the collapse of the Putin regime has been discussed, that is neither a political resolution the Ukrainians or the West directly control nor one they can depend on. So let's skip the personal targeting and discuss the war's progress and end.
[QUOTE=WyattEarp;2813899]I'm guessing you are here to try to persuade others that the Ukraine War is a cause we must commit to resolutely.[/QUOTE]You guess wrong. I'm not trying to persuade anyone. I post facts and analyses I think are interesting and relevant and people are free to decide for themselves. Similarly, when people post narrative and opinion, dressed up as fact, I'm happy to point out facts that burst that bubble.
Either way, I frankly don't give a fuck what they believe, because the war will play out how it plays out. Oh, but I do enjoy making fun of the Putin FanBoy clique. That doesn't mean I'm trying to persuade them either, because they're immune to fact.
[QUOTE] However, I don't see you persuading. Instead, you are shouting down on someone who has been in mostly support of your posts. No one has to be in 100% agreement with your perspective to show loyalty to the Ukrainian cause.[/QUOTE]I don't give a fuck what you think. Especially now that you've conclusively demonstrated yourself to be morally impaired. Whether you're a moral cripple, or a moral coward, you'll have to decide for yourself. And others can read each and every moral challenge that was placed before you, and render their own judgments on your repeated evasions. I'm not trying to convince them either, the posts speak for themselves.
[QUOTE]I do think you take it too personally. So what?[/QUOTE]No problem. I do think you can go fuck yourself. So what?
[QUOTE]I don't want to here aggressive retorts that I don't care about the Russian atrocities. Or the the old social media standby "you're not answering my question" repeatedly to establish dominance over someone and the thread.[/QUOTE]If you can't stand the heat, get the fuck out of the kitchen. If YOU hadn't taken it upon yourself to play the role of "school marm," lecturing me about how I should "feel," there would have been no retort. Oh, and if this is too aggressive for you, I suggest you either drag your pussy-ass somewhere else, or maybe just STFU instead of presuming to lecture others.
BTW, you'd actually be more believable if you dropped any pretense at caring, since it's glaringly obvious you don't. Someone who at least is honest about their moral indifference is better than someone who expresses pseudo-concern.
[QUOTE]I would dial it down a bit. Maybe quite a bit. Let some opinions breathe without feeling compelled to suffocate anyone whose opinion doesn't conform to yours.[/QUOTE]Once again, go fuck yourself. Since you've conclusively shown yourself to be a moral pygmy, pretending to care (in the oh-so-comfortable abstract), why should your second attempt at lecturing meet with anything less than the same contempt merited by the first?
[QUOTE]In case you haven't noticed, this thread is the same hand full of people shouting at each other day-in and day-out on an "anonymous fuckboard."[/QUOTE]In case you haven't noticed, I much prefer HONEST exchanges, even if they involve shouting, over the kind of mealy-mouthed, weasel-worded, piss-ant contributions you offer.
I'm perfectly able to deal with robust debate, even if it crosses into shouting and nastiness. And that's because I'm confident in my ability to construct sound arguments that are based on facts and evidence.
But, when someone presumes to tell me how I should feel, especially when that person has put his moral impairment on full display, then the shotgun gets loaded and the volume gets turned up. Don't like it? Tough shit. When you choose to start something, completely unsolicited and uncalled for, you choose to reap what you've sown.
BTW, I'm more than primed for another round, are you? If you think you've seen aggressive and enraged, you ain't seen nothing yet.
Should you take him to Bethesda Naval Hospital, will he jump to the Dark Side from the highest floor?
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2813719]You guys have to stop reading and watching CNN. When is the last time they have told the truth about anything.[/QUOTE]CNN (just like all other American media) quoted Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. It would take you 10 seconds to research the topic. Much less than writing that bullshit, pointless post of yours.
The only thing you're capable of is blabbering about the imminent demise of Ukraine. On and on, ad nauseum for over a year -- that's all you've been doing since the war broke out.
Pathetic!
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2813748]Elvis, I think the next 2-4 weeks are crucial for Ukraine military. If they can somehow mount spring offensive, (I have my doubts), they might have a chance. They have to gain some momentum quickly or they will be wiped out. Time will tell, but the media is starting to change their tune that maybe Ukraine military is starting to lose. I think we will have our answer the first week in June maybe sooner.[/QUOTE]Yeah, I got a feeling that those who were towing the we-are-winning-in-Ukraine members of the press are hedging their bets. The latest drone attack on the Kremlin reeked of desperation.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2813748]Maybe, Biden and the allies will come to there senses at start a road to piece, but there are no signs of this happening, they just keep doubling down.[/QUOTE]Yeah, I have been surprised Biden's crazy spending has not led to a recession yet. When that happens, even the Fed is predicting it, then the aid to Ukraine will be in jeopardy. I wonder if Ukraine has the USA's blessing to make a deal right now. I hope they do.
[QUOTE=Questner;2814036]Orc sad noises, "I am a LoZer"[/QUOTE]Good morning, have you had your breakfast? For Muscovites, this is the MOST important meal of the day.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2814063]CNN (just like all other American media) quoted Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. It would take you 10 seconds to research the topic. Much less than writing that bullshit, pointless post of yours.
The only thing you're capable of is blabbering about the imminent demise of Ukraine. On and on, ad nauseum for over a year -- that's all you've been doing since the war broke out.
Pathetic![/QUOTE]You are living in dream world, stop watching crazy ass liberal media. We will have all.
The answers in the next couple of weeks.
Sorry to tell you, but Ukraine is getting it's ass kicked directly and in directly. There will be nothing left, but a broke and destroyed country. That is definitely a win, in your liberal world.
Ukraine needs to start negotiating quickly and stop listening to Biden and buddies. As Elvis said the latest stunt of flying Drones in Moscow is a big mistake.
Time will tell who is correct!
[QUOTE=WyattEarp;2813899]I'm guessing you are here to try to persuade others that the Ukraine War is a cause we must commit to resolutely. However, I don't see you persuading. Instead, you are shouting down on someone who has been in mostly support of your posts. No one has to be in 100% agreement with your perspective to show loyalty to the Ukrainian cause.
I do think you take it too personally. So what? I don't want to here aggressive retorts that I don't care about the Russian atrocities. Or the the old social media standby "you're not answering my question" repeatedly to establish dominance over someone and the thread.
If you want to be effective at delivering your message, I would dial it down a bit. Maybe quite a bit. Let some opinions breathe without feeling compelled to suffocate anyone whose opinion doesn't conform to yours. In case you haven't noticed, this thread is the same hand full of people shouting at each other day-in and day-out on an "anonymous fuckboard."[/QUOTE]Great post, Wyatt! Yeah, I liked JM's posts. I knew what side he was on, and I used to respect his posts and what he brought to the table. Lately, it has been personal attacks and just stupid narcissistic comments (I will decide which facts are true.).
No one knows what is really going on. The government has too much at stake to allow uncensored views of what is happening. In that way, it is like Covid. With that, I had to run to unconventional sources to get to what I considered the truth, and the same goes here.
So much of our information is censored or put forward in a way that makes the government look good. You could easily identify a liberal from 2017 on because anything in government that went wrong was Trump's fault. You could say anything about him but the lettered agencies used to be honest as the day is long. Those days are gone.
I noticed most of the cop shows had a black boss after Obama was elected, but my favorite entertainment pertaining to the government was the show Narcos. The DEA chief was canned in 2014 for among other things having agents who were fucking hookers paid by the drug cartels still at the DEA. The show Narcos skirted the payment issue but gave us DEA agents fucking hookers but it was for intelligence purposes. Yes, they were fucking hookers for our benefit! Those agents are still there by the way.
Still, I remember when the lab leak theory in April 2021 was allowed to be discussed in the press and was somehow not a racist attack on the Chinese. LOL. And now we are seeing reports that are saying Ukraine is in trouble, and those reports are not met with calls that you want to kiss Putin's ass. And FWIW, I think this kid Teixeria leaking documents had something to do with that.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2814163]You are living in dream world, stop watching crazy ass liberal media. We will have all.
The answers in the next couple of weeks.
Sorry to tell you, but Ukraine is getting it's ass kicked directly and in directly. There will be nothing left, but a broke and destroyed country. That is definitely a win, in your liberal world.
Ukraine needs to start negotiating quickly and stop listening to Biden and buddies. As Elvis said the latest stunt of flying Drones in Moscow is a big mistake.
Time will tell who is correct![/QUOTE]Drama, It is unclear why you persist in posting statements that appear to lack basic literacy and demonstrate a level of reasoning that is reminiscent of an eight-year-old. While there are individuals on this forum who hold varying beliefs and perspectives, your posts are notably unsophisticated and unintentionally funny. Your time would be better spend learning language (any language, for that matter, including your native) and increasing your overall level of analytical abilities by getting your hands on some elementary math textbooks.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2814163]
You are living in dream world, stop watching crazy ass liberal media. We will have all.
The answers in the next couple of weeks.
Sorry to tell you, but Ukraine is getting it's ass kicked directly and in directly. There will be nothing left, but a broke and destroyed country. That is definitely a win, in your liberal world.
Ukraine needs to start negotiating quickly and stop listening to Biden and buddies. As Elvis said the latest stunt of flying Drones in Moscow is a big mistake.
Time will tell who is correct![/QUOTE]Have news for you.
Time has spoken.
You're a paid olginsky troll.
[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency[/URL]
Your "mongering activities" in other threads are most likely fakes. You most likely have never been to Mexico or Colombia.
No one can keep repeating the same dumb, ridiculous, thoroughly debunked shit for over a year, as if they were on a mission -- unless they ARE on a mission.
To be honest, I had my doubts, so I've carved a few quotes from your rich "library" to keep them all on the same page.
You're claiming to be from Texas. In my opinion, you don't live in this country.
It's astonishing that Russia would waste money on propagandists on a fucking mongering forum, but what do I know! I guess we're Very Important People after all, LOL.
Anyway, here goes.
March 2022.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2814163]Ukraine decided to take on a bully and is getting absolutely destroyed as result. Any deal is good deal at this point, nobody is coming to help them and if thought that was going to happen, maybe one of the biggest miscalculation of all time.
There will be nothing will be left of Ukraine
Nobody is winning. This is a total mess. The war needs to end yesterday, somebody needs to win.
When your country is destroyed, sorry that is not a win. They will never get into NATO because of the corruption. Yes, both Russia and Ukraine are screwed.[/QUOTE]May 2022.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2814163]Ukraine loses either way. A tie is not a win, if there is nothing left.
Nobody is winning, this is total mess. The longer this craziness continues, the world economy will tank, this is almost worst scenario, minus a Nuclear War.
So true, they should be forced to negotiate and compromise. Instead of sending weapons, we should say enough is enough. Find a solution and end this crazy war.
We should be demanding a ceasefire and negotiations. Cut off some of the money and weapons, you will see a settlement quickly.
They need to find a solution to end this, both sides need to compromise. Nobody is winning.
Let's see how well the great Ukraine army does, they sure as hell were not calling the shots at the beginning, maybe a little now. They have done amazing up to this point, but now is time for compromise. Yes, Ukraine is partially to blame for this mess they are in and if the get greedy they will end up flattened and broke.
This is endless stupid war. Yes, Ukraine government is partially to blame for all there lies, corruption and silly games
Both sides are terrible, Ukraine is one of the most corrupt governments ever or an Evil Dictator, pick your poison.
If gas goes up much more and Ukraine is unwilling to negotiate, support will dry up fast for Ukraine.
As usual Ukraine will lose because of corruption and greed. They were winning, but there leadership was too stupid to make a deal.
I have bad news for you, Ukraine is now losing and it is only going to get worse. They need a solution or a compromise quickly. The longer this goes on the worse it will get for Ukraine and the world's economy. Ukraine will end up with almost nothing, but that is what they do best lose.
Ukraine government has about 1-2 months to figure this out, or they are in deep shit. Public opinion will start shifting when the media starts reporting about all the corruption that is and was going on in Ukraine. Then the funds, support and weapons will dry up. The better start negotiating, or they will end up with almost nothing.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2814163]July 2022
I give the liberal Media, 1-2 months, and they will turn on Ukraine Government. They will bring up the corruption and start asking questions. Also, they will questioning why there is almost zero negotiations going on to end this war. This will be the end of the Ukraine government.
They are destroying there country and the world economy. Negotiate before it is too late.
Until Ukraine and there allies wake up and decide to have a winning strategy they are going to lose big time.
Liberals are good at losing, and Ukraine Government is even better at losing. This time Ukraine is taking the world economy down with them and our Great Pres.
Ukraine looses either way, but there government is too stupid to realize this. So sad!!
Why Ukraine would risk everything over joining a corrupt organization,(NAtO), beats me. They can have NATO, we should pull out, let Ukraine have NATO.
Ukraine is being destroyed, there people are getting killed or wounded, there will be nothing left to fight over.
We want the war to end. Either way Ukraine is totally screwed, as usual.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2814163]
August 2022
Pres. Z. Is going to get everyone killed and there will be nothing left to fight over. I guess this is Winning strategy, he must be a Democratic, they love to lose.
There is no way Ukraine wins, only in your Video Game and your Fantasy world. Unfortunately Pres. Z. is playing the same game you are playing, he is getting many incident people killed in the process and his country is being destroyed.
You are delusional, living in a fantasy world and no desire to negotiate. Unfortunately, many will die from this ridiculous war. Russia will get the ports and Ukraine will end up with almost nothing, but in your world that is a win.
This is the words negotiations have come out of your month. Both parties should be negotiating, including your hero Pres. Z. The head clown in charge.
I am sure reality is starting to sink in for Pres. Z. Ukraine is in a no win situation, it will only get worse.
Exactly, either way Ukraine loses. They are being played.[/QUOTE]November 2022.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2814163]XMan war is Hell and people die. This is what happens, both parties are guilty. These guys need to find some middle ground and reach a settlement.
The funny thing is, I have talked about negotiating and finding a solution, you and your crazy ass friends want this to continue. The world is going into a recession and Europe is about to freeze there ass off this winter, I guess this is what you wanted. All this could have been prevented.[/QUOTE]December 2022.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2814163]Ukraine is screwed either way, so they mights well finish off Russia military, hopefully they will not get nuked in the process. 2 corrupt countries, fighting over joining an even bigger corrupt organization, NATO. When your country is destroyed, and a majority of the country is long gone, this is not a win![/QUOTE]February 2023.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2814163]Ukraine is being wiped out. You are losing a generation of men, maybe more. Those that are able to flee are leaving and will never return. At the end the world will turn on Pres. Z. he has. Ruined Ukraine, this is not a win.
This is a needless war. The west is using Pres. Z. , when they do not need him anymore or the war is not winnable, they will dump him.[/QUOTE]March 2023.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2814163]You guys are dreaming that there will be a Spring Offensive from Ukraine, they are finished. I do believe that parts of the reports are true, but this guy was probably set-up by the CIA. Interesting how the media is suddenly talking about corruption in Ukraine government. Something is definitely up. The Ukraine military has done an amazing job and totally over achieved, but they are done, time negotiations, that should have happened, 13 months ago.
You guys truly live in a Fantasy world. Ukraine is done. The sooner they figure that out, many lives will be saved, we can move on, and we will avoid World War 3. Sometimes I actually believe this is what you want. You wanted a war, now we all have to deal with the consequences, and Ukraine is being destroyed, but in your liberal world this might be a win.
You will have no military left in 10 months. You guys truly are delusional.
They should have been negotiating, from a the beginning. This will end horribly for the Ukraine people and the longer this drags on the worse it will be for all parties, especially Ukraine, they are being destroyed.[/QUOTE]April 2023.
Here is today's.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2814163]Ukraine is getting destroyed. Putin is now stronger then ever, the sanction have done nothing, but bring Russia and China closer.
You are living in dream world, stop watching crazy ass liberal media. We will have all.
The answers in the next couple of weeks.
Sorry to tell you, but Ukraine is getting it's ass kicked directly and in directly. There will be nothing left, but a broke and destroyed country. That is definitely a win, in your liberal world.
Ukraine needs to start negotiating quickly and stop listening to Biden and buddies. As Elvis said the latest stunt of flying Drones in Moscow is a big mistake. Time will tell who is correct![/QUOTE]And here is the winner:
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2814163]You live in a fantasy world[/QUOTE]-- addressing your opponents more than 20 times over the last year.
Fantasy world, indeed.
The West's "Empire of Lies" in Ukraine - [URL]https://youtu.be/bUEHeVIQHts[/URL].
[QUOTE=Tumeric1;2814253]Drama, It is unclear why you persist in posting statements that appear to lack basic literacy and demonstrate a level of reasoning that is reminiscent of an eight-year-old. While there are individuals on this forum who hold varying beliefs and perspectives, your posts are notably unsophisticated and unintentionally funny. Your time would be better spend learning language (any language, for that matter, including your native) and increasing your overall level of analytical abilities by getting your hands on some elementary math textbooks.[/QUOTE]Drama is one of those illiterate MAGAs so don't expect education. He was ripped of repeatedly by Ukrainian scammers as he is not that clever so has a deep seated hatred for Ukraine.
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2814196]Great post, Wyatt! Yeah, I liked JM's posts. I knew what side he was on, and I used to respect his posts and what he brought to the table. Lately, it has been personal attacks and just stupid narcissistic comments (I will decide which facts are true.).[/QUOTE]1. Which side I'm on has been crystal clear from my very first post. No mystery there, even for the most obtuse.
2. Wyatt made it personal by presuming to lecture me about how I should feel. Once someone makes it personal, it's rather pathetic to whine about a personal response.
3. I have never once stated that I "decide" which facts are true. And I challenge you to produce a SINGLE thing I've posted to back up your BS assertion. True facts speak for themselves and they have an amazing ability to rise conspicuously and persistently above pseudo-evidence and opinion-based narrative. For any facts I've posted, I welcome rebuttal and debate. I will always acknowledge fact-based positions and, wherever those facts lead, that's where I'll follow.
It's unfortunate how many, like you, decide first which narrative they prefer, and then selectively choose facts that fit therein.
Confirmation bias much?
[QUOTE=Questner;2814359]The West's "Empire of Lies" in Ukraine - [URL]https://youtu.be/bUEHeVIQHts[/URL].[/QUOTE]The perfect example of that is their self-delusion about supposedly winning WW-II without any help from the West.
In fact, May 9th is their primary Festival of Delusion. Too bad so many Russian cities will not be holding any parades. And those parades that might take place will be even more pathetic caricatures than usual.
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2814065]Yeah, I got a feeling that those who were towing the we-are-winning-in-Ukraine members of the press are hedging their bets. The latest drone attack on the Kremlin reeked of desperation.[/QUOTE][URL]https://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/16700[/URL]
"If you carry out a false flag operation you are supposed to follow up, as if it was genuine, to give you at least marginal credibility, but the Kremlin stooges are so full of themselves that they did not even bother to try to be credible".
"How could they instantly know that Ukraine was behind the attack? How could they believe that anybody would be so dumb as to expect Putin in the Kremlin at night? Why were two men on the dome of the Senate Building in the middle of the night? Why were the buildings not damaged? Why did they not seek and arrest any suspect culprits? Why hasn't any responsible air defense generals been sacked? How pathetic, Putin".
Here's an opinion piece, by a Swedish author, that raises some relevant questions about things that happened during the incident (2 men climbing the Kremlin dome, in the middle of the night, at the exact time of the attack, really?) as well as things that should reasonably have happened in the aftermath (no one held accountable or sacked over the intrusion). The article makes additional points but the above excerpts capture the gist of the argument.
Once again, the knee-jerk narrative ignores or avoids inconvenient facts. If it was a false flag, how desperate must the Kremlin be?
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2814297]Have news for you.
Time has spoken.
You're a paid olginsky troll.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]-- addressing your opponents more than 20 times over the last year.
Fantasy world, indeed.[/QUOTE]The internet never forgets. Well played!
[QUOTE=Questner;2814036]Should you take him to Bethesda Naval Hospital, will he jump to the Dark Side from the highest floor?[/QUOTE]If so, too bad he wasn't pushed by the other guy (et tu, Patrushev?) but highly unlikely he'd poke his head out of his bunker-hole.
[QUOTE=Questner;2814359]I am an idiot, and I suck Putin's cock every night[/QUOTE]Seems like the raping of Ukrainians by Rachists is never ending.
[QUOTE=GDreams;2814420]Drama is one of those illiterate MAGAs so don't expect education.[/QUOTE]Let's see if ChatGPT can write a post in the style of the resident fuckhead DramaFree:
"Kyiv is done, it used to be good, but Ukraine's best days are long gone, every single woman has left. Only time will tell if things will work out for Ukrainians. There are faults on both sides. The Ukrainians brought this upon themselves by trying to have a democracy. There is a lot of corruption in Ukraine (conspicuous lack of mention of the kleptocracy he lives in). ".
[QUOTE=Jmsuttr;2814527]The perfect example of that is their self-delusion about supposedly winning WW-II without any help from the West.[/QUOTE]Yep. And then their propagandists turn around and scream how they're not fighting Ukraine--they're fighting the whole Nato.
You're fighting the whole Nato, aren't you? Why? Because they give Ukraine tanks and some missiles (not even long-range missiles or aircraft, mind you)?
That's funny because whatever Nato's giving Ukraine now, pales in comparison with the US land lease for the USSR during the WW2.
If you're fighting the whole Nato now, then you have no claim for WW2. Make your pick, scumbags.
Apparently the wretched clown has a twatter account.
Just browsing.
[URL]https://twitter.com/obraibant/status/1654914236907134977/photo/1[/URL]
[URL]https://twitter.com/CyrilleGermain/status/1654922916641792001/photo/1[/URL]
[QUOTE=Questner;2814662]Apparently the wretched clown has a twatter account.
Just browsing.
[URL]https://twitter.com/obraibant/status/1654914236907134977/photo/1[/URL]
[URL]https://twitter.com/CyrilleGermain/status/1654922916641792001/photo/1[/URL][/QUOTE]Needs waxing, though. Or at least a trim.
[QUOTE=Questner;2814662]Apparently the wretched clown has a twatter account.[/QUOTE]Speaking of clowns, we can all see the Muscovy State Circus live on the internet.
"Igor Girkin is very pessimistic today. He says it is time to start thinking about preventing Russia from falling apart because military defeat is near.
Translation:
Regular readers and listeners should remember the assessment of the situation that I laid out (and expressed) last winter. One of the theses was: "If the necessary national measures for the successful conduct of the war are not taken before May, we will not be able to win this war.
I state: NO MEASURES HAVE BEEN TAKEN. Neither organizational nor personnel. The goals of the war have not been determined, and the inhabitants of the Planet of the Pink Ponies (PRP) have not understood that "this war will be fought until one side is victorious. Accordingly, since there is no goal, there is no strategy. No strategy. No conscious work on its implementation. But the enemy has a strategy from the beginning and is being implemented with all its might. More and more successfully since the Kremlin is "playing giveaway" with an inexplicable enthusiasm and childlike confidence in the ultimate "contract" that is comfortable for the elderly Ponies, Elephants, and Unicorns.
Now we have to think about how to preserve the state, the country and the people in a situation of impending military defeat.
And, yes. Even for a "worthy non-fatal defeat" (in which our enemies will be forced to abandon their plans for the complete fragmentation of Russia and the elimination of its sovereignty) we will have to fight long and hard. Harder and longer than it would have been if we had fought to win decisively from the outset. And the longer the occupants of the PRP will linger in the "sweet languor" of confidence in their peaceful and happy old age (which has long come for most of the VIPs) - the less chance that in the end the Russian ship will manage to get out of the military storm and systemic crisis, without sinking (after a long and bloody Troubles) into History".
[URL]https://twitter.com/VolodyaTretyak/status/1655186960577703941[/URL]
P.S. In an off the record comment, Girkin suggests that Putin FanBoy Questner should subscribe to Girkin's "Twatter" channel. Girkin said that it might help Questner to extract his head from Putin's Pink Pony ass.
Is the reason you aren't at the front line that you changed your gender?
Here's a leak, the little scummy bug with his Parent 1 and Parent 2.
[QUOTE=Questner;2814949]Here's a leak, the little scummy bug with his Parent 1 and Parent 2.[/QUOTE]What's the Russian word for "Depends," and also for scummy? And it's reported that he has some bodyguards who specialize in cleaning up #1 leaks, and others who specialize in cleaning up #2.
I'm guessing you'd be a likely candidate for the #2 group.
[QUOTE=Questner;2814949]Here's a leak, my trousers when the AFU is near[/QUOTE]Are the chinese lessons going well?
"Rampant corruption is reported to have rendered Russia's ballistic missile early warning system virtually useless. Scams by contractors are said to have led to unsuitable foreign-made components being used on a wide scale".
"Most of the components, as usual, were purchased abroad and under the guise of procuring expensive transistors protected from interference and radiation, the brains of the radar were supplied with cheap parts that were unusable for military purposes".
"This made it possible to have a huge profit margin, a thousand different kinds of radio components were purchased for cents, and invoiced for hundreds of dollars each".
"According to a source, the result now is that Russia has unstable radars, which provide a "window of opportunity" to hit Russian territory without retaliation".
[URL]https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1655449330021433347.html[/URL]
Although it's a Russian source, if this report is true it's likely that Western intel agencies and others (Ukraine, China, etc.) are aware of the situation. And, according to the report, Putin is also aware. Here are a few possible implications:
1. Any nuclear saber-rattling by Putin will be viewed as nothing more than a bluff by Ukraine and Western allies, as well as by China. That was probably already the case, but this reported info would provide an additional factual basis.
2. If the report is true, with respect to early warning radars, then it's reasonable to assume that corruption may have undermined other areas of Russia's nuclear (and conventional) capability. That's because the same electronics component shell-game scam could easily be used elsewhere, in both nuclear and non-nuclear military systems.
3. Putin is very likely aware that the West knows, and that China also knows. So he'll be aware that any nuclear threats coming from either the Kremlin or Russian state media will only be useful for scaring the uninformed public.
The article indicates that more info might be coming out in the near future. We'll have to wait and see, since it's obviously in Russia's interests to keep info like this under wraps.
Institutionalized Russian corruption, the gift that keeps on giving!
One victorious day the grotesque clique of ordinary traitors occupying Kiev will be washed down the sewage.
[QUOTE=Jmsuttr;2815218]"Rampant corruption is reported to have rendered Russia's ballistic missile early warning system virtually useless. Scams by contractors are said to have led to unsuitable foreign-made components being used on a wide scale"[/QUOTE]Of course! Ukraine is very fortunate that Russia is so impossibly corrupt. Which also tells me that Putin's "impenetrable" bunkers aren't worth shit (who wouldn't have skimmed from the government contract on something that was never supposed to be used anyway?) This is also why MOST Russian nukes ARE shit (but not all 6,000 of them, unfortunately).
However, I doubt Putin knows the extent of the steal. No one would dare upset him.
[QUOTE=Questner;2815316]One victorious day...[/QUOTE]The LoZZers haven't had a victory for a long time, and one doesn't seem to be coming. What is air defence doing BTW? Can you tell me?
The 30 min parade today in Muscovy was a pretty hilarious clown walk. A single T-34 on show, and fake fat Putin in the stands since bunker boy won't come out to play.
Everyone is laughing, from the Baltic States to the "allies" in the CSTO.
[QUOTE=Questner;2815316]One victorious day[/QUOTE]On this very day, during the (supposedly) most momentous celebration of Soviet military might, all Russia could muster up was a single 80-year old T-34 tank! The entire pathetic parade, if it can even be called that, took only about 10 minutes. Oh, and ZERO aircraft participating in any kind of demonstration or flyover.
How humiliating! Bwa-ha-haa-haaa!
[QUOTE=VinDici;2815374]The 30 min parade today in Muscovy was a pretty hilarious clown walk. A single T-34 on show, and fake fat Putin in the stands since bunker boy won't come out to play.
Everyone is laughing, from the Baltic States to the "allies" in the CSTO.[/QUOTE][URL]https://www.asomf.org/interesting-facts-about-victory-in-europe-day/[/URL]
Germany had already unconditionally surrendered to Allied Forces (sans USSR), first on May 4th (some German forces), and then on May 7th (ALL German forces).
Stalin was pissed and insisted on having his own "signing ceremony" in Berlin, which happened a couple of days later. Which means that all the events of May 9th were purely for show, as the REAL surrender had already taken place. That's why EVERYONE other than Russia celebrates VE-Day on May 8th, the date on which the ACTUAL surrender agreement took official effect.
How appropriate that even matters of Russian "national pride" are based on shambolic lies. And a shambolic holiday deserves an equally shambolic parade. Potemkin would be proud!
[URL]https://londonlovesbusiness.com/moscows-military-parade-a-humiliating-flop-with-a-strong-indication-to-the-west-putin-has-small-weapon-stock/[/URL]
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2815320]Of course! Ukraine is very fortunate that Russia is so impossibly corrupt. Which also tells me that Putin's "impenetrable" bunkers aren't worth shit (who wouldn't have skimmed from the government contract on something that was never supposed to be used anyway?) This is also why MOST Russian nukes ARE shit (but not all 6,000 of them, unfortunately).
However, I doubt Putin knows the extent of the steal. No one would dare upset him.[/QUOTE]I agree that no one wants to (voluntarily) be the bearer of bad news. But, once a significant piece of bad news leaks out, or is otherwise discovered, it would be foolish to not order a thorough investigation. And Putin, although evil, is no fool.
One of the keys to Putin's rule is how he actively creates and promotes separate "silos" of power that he can then play against each other and use to investigate each other. The military vs the FSB is the most obvious example, although there are other elements (like the FSO) that are less talked about.
The main point I'm getting at is that any group tasked with getting to the bottom of a nasty procurement scandal doesn't really need to worry about upsetting Putin. That's because a) he ordered the investigation; b) They're throwing others under the bus, while simultaneously elevating their own status, and; c) Putin will be more upset if facts come out later that the investigators should have found and reported.
Of course, whatever comes out of any such situation is likely to be handled outside of the public eye. Think back over the past year about how many surprising "suicides" and "accidents" have taken place. It's impossible to know what the internal motivations were for each death (targeted killing), but that's how such things are usually handled.
But, and this is key, even if Putin knows every detail he really can't do shit about it. The damage has already been done and repairing it, even if no sanctions were in place, would take years. Under current circumstances, there's little hope the problem can be effectively fixed.
Keep things quiet, deal privately with the responsible people, and continue to play the "bluff" card. That's really all Putin can do, IMO. Unfortunately for him, that doesn't work well when your adversaries know exactly what's in your hand.
In one of the WWII documentaries there was a comment to the tune that some of the Allied soldiers deployed to Europe did not know what they were fighting for until they saw the concentration camps. Then they realized what they had been fighting against. There always will be the question of how it could have happened and why the highest forces above had not intervened and allowed the Holocaust. I will not argue with those that say that an eventual miracle saved those who were still alive. For me, the answer is the following: it took a heroic action of a soldier to win over evil. If we take a minute of silence for each Soviet soldier and civilian fallen during the war, we will keep silence for half of a century.
[QUOTE=Questner;2815608]In one of the WWII documentaries there was a comment to the tune that some of the Allied soldiers deployed to Europe did not know what they were fighting for until they saw the concentration camps. Then they realized what they had been fighting against. There always will be the question of how it could have happened and why the highest forces above had not intervened and allowed the Holocaust. I will not argue with those that say that an eventual miracle saved those who were still alive. For me, the answer is the following: it took a heroic action of a soldier to win over evil. If we take a minute of silence for each Soviet soldier and civilian fallen during the war, we will keep silence for half of a century.[/QUOTE]During WW-II, Ukraine experienced higher losses, both military and civilian, than other Soviet Republics in proportion to their respective populations. One obvious reason is because Ukraine's geographic position turned it into a buffer zone (and killing zone) between Germany and Russia.
[URL]https://texty.org.ua/projects/103854/occupation_eng/[/URL]
Without the efforts of millions of Ukrainians who died in WW-II, Russia would have lost. But, because they're such brainwashed and ungrateful bey*tches, Russians refuse to acknowledge their debt to Ukraine, just like they refuse to acknowledge their debt to the Western Allies who kept Russia alive with an extensive Lend-lease program.
So, while you're having your "minutes of silence," don't forget to allocate MILLIONS of minutes for the UKRAINIANS who gave their lives. And, at the end of it all, it's worth noting that all Ukraine wants, in return for its sacrifice, is for Russia to leave them the fuck alone!
[QUOTE=Questner;2815608]If we take a minute of silence for each Soviet soldier and civilian fallen during the war, we will keep silence for half of a century.[/QUOTE]And yet you can't shut up for even one day, I think we would all look forward to half a century of silence from the Vatniks.
[QUOTE=Jmsuttr;2815620]During WW-II, Ukraine experienced higher losses, both military and civilian, than other Soviet Republics in proportion to their respective populations. One obvious reason is because Ukraine's geographic position turned it into a buffer zone (and killing zone) between Germany and Russia.
[URL]https://texty.org.ua/projects/103854/occupation_eng/[/URL]
Without the efforts of millions of Ukrainians who died in WW-II, Russia would have lost. But, because they're such brainwashed and ungrateful bey*tches, Russians refuse to acknowledge their debt to Ukraine, just like they refuse to acknowledge their debt to the Western Allies who kept Russia alive with an extensive Lend-lease program.
So, while you're having your "minutes of silence," don't forget to allocate MILLIONS of minutes for the UKRAINIANS who gave their lives. And, at the end of it all, it's worth noting that all Ukraine wants, in return for its sacrifice, is for Russia to leave them the fuck alone![/QUOTE]Hell yes!
Russia wouldn't have won without American land-lease and its western allies in general. It's a simple fact acknowledged by (among others) Stalin and Zhukov.
Russia wouldn't have won without the Ukrainians. One Ukrainian was fighting for every four Russians.
Russia wouldn't have won without ethnic minorities other than Ukrainians. 8 million of them were fighting alongside the Russians.
And as soon as it was over, Stalin proposed the toast for the great Russian people.
Yeah, right.
1. Japan appears likely to open a NATO liaison office:
[URL]https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/10/asia/japan-foreign-minister-hayashi-nato-intl-hnk/index.html[/URL]
"Japan is in talks to open a NATO liaison office, the first of its kind in Asia, the country's foreign minister told CNN in an exclusive interview on Wednesday, saying Russia's invasion of Ukraine has made the world less stable."
"Something happening in East Europe is not only confined to the issue in East Europe, and that affects directly the situation here in the Pacific. That's why a cooperation between us in East Asia and NATO (is) becoming. Increasingly important".
2. Japan and South Korea are putting decades of animosity aside to build defense ties:
[URL]https://japantoday.com/category/politics/japan-south-korea-to-link-radar-systems-to-track-n.korea-missiles-source[/URL]
"Japanese and South Korean defense authorities are set to agree early next month to link their radars via a USA System to share real-time information on North Korea's ballistic missiles, a person with knowledge of the matter said on Tuesday".
"Ties between the United States' Asian allies have warmed in recent months in the face of the North Korean threat. Resuming their "shuttle diplomacy", Japanese Prime Minister Fumio Kishida met with South Korean President Yoon Suk Yeol in Seoul on Sunday, where they confirmed progress in defense cooperation".
IMO, many countries are rethinking their defense policies in the aftermath of Russia's aggression. As part of that process they're making decisions about who their adversaries are likely to be, and with whom they should strengthen or forge new alliances.
With respect to Asia, China has tried hard to project an image of a benign neighbor. They can't be happy that Asian rivals like Japan and South Korea are working together on defense. Even though they name North Korea as the primary reason, China is the obvious elephant in the room.
And China REALLY must be pissed at any suggestion that NATO might rise in prominence in Asia. The blame for that can truly be placed squarely at Russia's feet. Not good for Russia to upset China, their economic lifeline and master.
Fascinating to consider how concerns and precautions resulting from Russia's aggression may have the effect of deterring aggression (by China or Russia) in Asia.
Seems like these are already in Ukraine. And I noticed that Priz got the ammo he asked for, it was kindly supplied by the AFU up his Orc ass.
Except when they work brilliantly.
On a way to meet his maker Zed first has to meet Papa.
[QUOTE=Questner;2816179]On a way to meet his maker Zed first has to meet Papa.[/QUOTE]Der Orc-Fuhrer knows that his Orc-Hordes are about to become Orc-Toast!
[QUOTE=Questner;2816179]Orc grunting.[/QUOTE]Everyone is laughing at this situation.
Imagine a country so morally bankrupt, that they not only steal land, children and elections, they even take stamp designs from Ukraine. How pathetic.
Tragically doubling down and doubling the losses.
[QUOTE=Questner;2816518]Tragically doubling down and doubling the losses.[/QUOTE]Have you seen the videos circulating online showing Orcs in full flight, like the leaderless, poorly trained, pussy-bitches they are?
[URL]https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2023/05/11/ukraine-russia-war-live-updates/70206608007/[/URL]
Even Prigozhin is ranting about his fellow Orcs running away. My hope and prayer is for MUCH more to follow, just like this.
[URL]https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/wagner-mercenary-russia-admits-putin-soldiers-fleeing-ukraine/[/URL]
"Head of Russia's Wagner group admits Putin's soldiers are fleeing".
Putin has survived in power by pitting different power factions against each other. Now that strategy is demonstrably contributing to Russia's failure on the battlefield. And the counteroffensive (that some mistakenly think isn't coming) hasn't even started in earnest.
[QUOTE=Questner;2816518]Tragically doubling down and doubling the losses.[/QUOTE]Completely agree with you, he is doubling the losses of the LoZZers. Are you able to see?
Hey RuZZbots, what is air defence doing?
Looks like the common thief and traitor-in-chief as expected is going to be awarded another medal tomorrow, this time 'ze german' one.
[QUOTE=Questner;2816782]Looks like the common thief and traitor-in-chief as expected is going to be awarded another medal tomorrow, this time 'ze german' one.[/QUOTE]This account is a bot.
[QUOTE=Questner;2816782]Looks like the common thief and traitor-in-chief as expected is going to be awarded another medal tomorrow, this time 'ze german' one.[/QUOTE]And Putin, the REAL Traitor-in-Chief, will be reviled and ridiculed as a dictator who flushed his entire country's future down the toilet. Oh wait, I mean the outhouse, since those are much more common in Russia.
[QUOTE=Questner;2816782]Frustrated Orc grunting noises[/QUOTE]I would say this is a pretty accurate summary of the war.
[URL]https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/four-russian-aircraft-shot-down-within-their-own-borders[/URL]
One bomber, one fighter escort, two helicopters, and an estimated 9 aviators eliminated. And reportedly it all happened about 50 km INSIDE Russia. Three possible explanations have been proposed:
1. All four aircraft experienced near-simultaneous catastrophic in-flight systems failure. Highly unlikely, IMO.
2. All four aircraft were shot down by their own forces in a "friendly fire" incident. Possible, but also rather unlikely (IMO). One, maybe, but all FOUR? If Russian air defenses are so incompetent, then Ukraine will hardly need to lift a finger as Russian forces will mostly eliminate themselves.
3. All four aircraft were shot down by Ukraine. Possible methods include: a) Ukrainian Special Forces who successfully infiltrated Russian territory and used some type of MANPAD system; b) Pro-Ukraine partisans using MANPADs; c) Ukrainian forces using ground-based anti-aircraft systems, which would need to be brought close to the border, or into Russia, in order to be effective, or; d) Ukrainian fighters using air-to-air missiles.
One key point not mentioned in the article is that, for all or most of the scenarios listed in #3, Ukraine would likely have needed advance intel about details of the aircrafts' movements. I imagine that could make for some sleepless nights for Russian pilots and crew.
And, as a bonus, at least one (possibly both) of the helicopters reportedly had sophisticated electronic warfare capabilities. If that's true, that's an even more significant loss, one that will be difficult or impossible to replace.
Again, no matter how you slice it, a REALLY bad day for the Russian Air Force.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2816790]This account is a bot.[/QUOTE]May 14,2023.
Dear Mr. Clayton:
Hereby I attest my account is a genuine one.
Best regards,
Questner.
As history tells us, Charlemagne died depressed and disillusioned: none of his plans came through. Today the spirit of the long gone monarch appeared on the scene in Germany and knocked the prize in his name off the jester's stand to the floor.
[QUOTE=Questner;2817085]May 14,2023.
Dear Mr. Clayton:
Hereby I attest my account is a genuine one.
Best regards,
Questner.[/QUOTE]Since bots are designed to simulate real people, they can never be as stupid as someone who goes out of his way to post the same inane Putin-shit day after day.
Only a real idiot could pull that off.
[QUOTE=Questner;2817089]As history tells us, Charlemagne died depressed and disillusioned: none of his plans came through. Today the spirit of the long gone monarch appeared on the scene in Germany and knocked the prize in his name off the jester's stand to the floor.[/QUOTE]Berlin, Rome, Paris, and beyond, the free world welcomes Zelenskyy with open arms. Putin, meanwhile, slumps in deep depression in his Fuhrer-bunker, because he's pretty much a prisoner in his own country. As an indicted war criminal, he's at risk of arrest if he sticks his pathetic head out of his pathetic hole.
He can't even attend the upcoming BRICS conference in South Africa. He's been told he can attend via "Zoom call" so that he can avoid the risk of arrest. A Zoom call? How fucking humiliating is that? No wonder he's depressed.
[URL]https://www.vanguardngr.com/2023/05/use-zoom-or-well-arrest-you-at-brics-summit-south-africa-warns-putin/[/URL]
I hear Minsk is nice this time of year. Or maybe he could plan a nice vacation at his master's house in Beijing?
BTW, the thumbs-down verdict of history is already being written about Putin. And even Russian historians will one day use papers about Putin to wipe their asses.
[QUOTE=Jmsuttr;2817108]Since bots are designed to simulate real people, they can never be as stupid as someone who goes out of his way to post the same inane Putin-shit day after day.
Only a real idiot could pull that off.[/QUOTE]Just like Putin he simply can't stop.
Putin used to rule the biggest country on the planet and enjoy the friendship of corrupt foreign leaders like Trump, Schroeder and Berlusconi.
Now he rules his bunker and talks to his cronies on Zoom. And drags his unwinnable war to postpone the inevitable.
Questner doesn't have a bunker, but he used to be capable of writing somewhat coherent, if duplicitous posts. That's gone now. He's reduced to pasting hateful, idiotic memes.
Good job!
[QUOTE=Questner;2817089]Today the spirit of the long gone monarch appeared and knocked the prize in his name off the jester's stand to the floor.[/QUOTE]I heard that Kaydrovites have been seen in Bakhmut.
[QUOTE=Jmsuttr;2815831]Actually, it's you who is trying to employ the straw man fallacy. That's because you've been thoroughly ass-dragged for having the audacity to tell me how I SHOULD FEEL. And now you're subtly trying to move the goalposts by adding the word "pejorative," as though it's somehow fine to tell others how they SHOULD feel as long as it's done in (however you choose to define it) a non-pejorative way.
Here's a thought experiment for you:
1. You're standing in a bar and the news is on TV. On the news there's a report of some horrifically evil atrocity, such as a young girl being shot in the head by a cold and calculating killer.
2. The guy next to you is visibly outraged at the news report. So much so that he expresses that outrage verbally. You, and others around, can clearly hear his outrage..[/QUOTE]You're way too deep into your own thoughts here to have a civil back and forth conversation with someone. This coming from someone who has generally who has been supportive and in agreement with you. I've tried to give you an off-ramp from these endless criticisms. So much for trying to get back to civil discourse.
The affronting comment "No offense, but you seem to take the Ukraine War a bit too personally. One doesn't necessarily have to be Ukrainian to hold a personal animosity towards Russia." Oh my JM, how brash and insolent o fme to suggest that perhaps you have some personal animosity towards Russia that goes beyond a distant observer. (By the way, anyone can appear to be winning an argument on social media by trying to reshape the discussion into something else. Excessive drama over an innocuous comment, turning posts into a question of morality.).
You have been on the International Sex Guide for the last fifteen months almost exclusively and obsessively posting on the war in the Ukraine. You have not been present anyone else on ISG. I'm not sure how much credit one should receive for such a valiant and focused effort. Some might think being an armchair warrior on a sex site ranks just above posting a Ukrainian flag on their Facebook page. Being more emotional and going batshit crazy on people doesn't give you any moral superiority here. More than likely it confirms the view that you have a personal angle in this war.
It actually might be better if you said your family was persecuted by the Russians or your significant other is Ukrainian. I can't be the only one here who really hopes that is the case. Otherwise, you are expending far too much time, energy and anger trying to combat anyone who has different take on the war than you. (All the while in the Stupid Shit in Kyiv of the International Sex Guide. Sorry the gravitas of the thread or the lack thereof never changes).
FYI: Your silly bar scene analogy was a not so clever way to try to intimidate and display aggression. You should be careful that you don't cross a line with the moderators. They don't take kindly to members threatening other members even if it is just abstract sparring in a Stupid Shit thread.
Muscovy Foreign Ministry tried to troll by saying that British taxes were being wasted in Ukraine, and got ratioed by Brits saying that it was the best use of taxes they could imagine, and would prefer the government spend more, rather than on stupid domestic programs.
What an own goal, by the losing cowardly, child kidnapping idiots.
[URL]https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-65594540[/URL]
Making the rounds of the major European capitals (and the UK), Zelenskyy came away with major arms commitments AND a show of solidarity and support that would have been hard to imagine even a few months ago (esp from Germany).
In addition to pledges of significant military assistance (tanks, armored vehicles, missiles, drones, etc.), it almost appeared as if leaders were competing with each other to show how much they support Ukraine. In Italy, Zelenskyy was greeted by a military horse-mounted honor guard. In Germany, Chancellor Scholz gave a speech in which he declared "Ukraine is Europe," and then followed by saying "Slava Ukraini" (Glory to Ukraine). Finally, in the UK the PM gave Zelenskyy the kind of bro-hug usually reserved for the closest of personal friends.
Whether one believes the displays were 100% genuine, 100% for show, or something in between, what's relevant is that each government thought it important to publicly express OVERWHELMING commitment to, and support for, Ukraine.
It's also worth noting that the timing was impeccable, as it shores up support just before the anticipated counteroffensive by Ukraine. It puts to rest, at least for the near future, any talk of "Ukraine fatigue" in Europe. And it can't help but be a morale boost for both the Ukrainian military and a hopeful population.
Irrespective of your position on the war, any intellectually honest observer should acknowledge that this was extremely well-played by Zelenskyy.
Meanwhile, in a dreary bunker somewhere, Putin is likely crying in his borscht. At least he won't need to add salt!
[QUOTE=WyattEarp;2817394]You're way too deep into your own thoughts here to have a civil back and forth conversation with someone. This coming from someone who has generally who has been supportive and in agreement with you. I've tried to give you an off-ramp from these endless criticisms. So much for trying to get back to civil discourse.[/QUOTE]I frankly don't give a fuck about anyone's support. It's fine if someone wants to debate facts and analyses, but the facts and evidence will always stand or fall on their own merits. You keep repeating this trope as though your support means anything. It doesn't. The fact you keep bringing it up says something about you. Do you crave the approval of others? I don't. Are "off-ramps" also something you crave? I don't.
As far as civil discourse, once you've made things personal, that possibility gets flushed down the toilet. As a pathetic faux-victim pussy, you've placed yourself in the same tranche as the Putin FanBoyz, worthy only of ridicule and scorn.
[QUOTE]The affronting comment "No offense, but you seem to take the Ukraine War a bit too personally. One doesn't necessarily have to be Ukrainian to hold a personal animosity towards Russia." Oh my JM, how brash and insolent o fme to suggest that perhaps you have some personal animosity towards Russia that goes beyond a distant observer. (By the way, anyone can appear to be winning an argument on social media by trying to reshape the discussion into something else. Excessive drama over an innocuous comment, turning posts into a question of morality.).[/QUOTE]So now, in addition to telling me how I SHOULD FEEL, you're trying to play fuckboard psychoanalyst? Wow, if anyone needs their head examined, it's YOU! Oh, BTW, a morally outraged reaction at the kinds of atrocities committed by Russia is an emotionally appropriate response. I have lots of good company on that score. But moral blindness, or worse, moral cowardice, is where you appear to pitching your tent.
[QUOTE]You have been on the International Sex Guide for the last fifteen months almost exclusively and obsessively posting on the war in the Ukraine. You have not been present anyone else on ISG. I'm not sure how much credit one should receive for such a valiant and focused effort. Some might think being an armchair warrior on a sex site ranks just above posting a Ukrainian flag on their Facebook page.[/QUOTE]ROTFLMAO! What a feeble attempt to insert a subtle ad hominem into your pseudo-victim-pussy-protests. I've been on USASG since the mid-2000's, and on SF Redbook forums before that. I think I have a couple of Asia-related posts on ISG, but I've never really needed to use it for mongering purposes. My reason for posting in this forum is specifically because of my strong feelings about the war in Ukraine.
And yet you, with your relatively few (and lame) posts about Canada and Brazil, are somehow trying to imply that those insipid postings give you 'gravitas' to ANY degree? Abso-fucking-lutely HILARIOUS! Clearly, the mere fact that you have to stoop to such bullshit tactics is PROOF-POSITIVE that you're a pathetic piece of excrement, truly the lowest of the low.
[QUOTE]Being more emotional and going batshit crazy on people doesn't give you any moral superiority here. More than likely it confirms the view that you have a personal angle in this war. It actually might be better if you said your family was persecuted by the Russians or your significant other is Ukrainian. I can't be the only one here who really hopes that is the case. Otherwise, you are expending far too much time, energy and anger trying to combat anyone who has different take on the war than you. (All the while in the Stupid Shit in Kyiv of the International Sex Guide. Sorry the gravitas of the thread or the lack thereof never changes).[/QUOTE]Once again you concoct a piteous straw-man scenario in your own tortured imagination. What does it say about you that you can't comprehend legitimate feelings of moral outrage in the face of unspeakable atrocities? If you can only conceive of being outraged when the atrocity happens to you, or someone close to you, what kind of a moral cripple you must be!
[QUOTE]FYI: Your silly bar scene analogy was a not so clever way to try to intimidate and display aggression. You should be careful that you don't cross a line with the moderators. They don't take kindly to members threatening other members even if it is just abstract sparring in a Stupid Shit thread.[/QUOTE]Oh, poor, pathetic, faux-victim pussy! Your whiney-beeyotch reactions don't change the fact that the analogy was SUPREMELY accurate and on point. Once again, try telling the outraged stranger at the bar that your comment about how he SHOULD FEEL was meant innocuously. I would refer you back to the original analogy for the likely response. And what you consistently try to obfuscate is that this was ENTIRELY started by YOU! Yet, in the face of that incontrovertible fact, you contemptibly try to portray yourself as the wronged party. And you, even MORE contemptibly, try to disparage my legitimately-held feelings of moral outrage as I see prisoners beheaded, little girls shot in the head, and other unspeakable acts perpetrated in calculated and systematic ways.
In the immortal words of Will Smith (in MIB) "Don't start nuthin, won't be nuthin". Of course, faux-victim pussies will always try to claim that they never start anything. You're truly the Bill Laimbeer of ISG!
If you find Stupid Shit in Kyiv inhospitable, why don't you stick to telling mongers where to find the best feijoada in Brazil? Or the best poutine in Canada? You can always throw in a little geopolitics with your culinary recommendations. That would be right up your alley and wouldn't put to much strain on your limited intellectual and argumentative capacity. I almost included "moral" in that list, but that capacity appears to be non-existent in your case.
After being rebuffed the Pope gives a celestial advice to a delusional clown, 'You have to hide'.
[QUOTE=Questner;2817546]'You have to hide'.[/QUOTE]This is what every Muscovite has to do!
[QUOTE=Questner;2817546]After being rebuffed the Pope gives a celestial advice to a delusional clown, 'You have to hide'.[/QUOTE]Definition: Putin FanBoy who believes his own propaganda.
Perfect example of delusion vs reality from last night's missile attack on Kyiv. Six supposedly "unstoppable" Kinzhal hypersonic missiles were successfully intercepted. Another nail in the coffin of the reputation of Russia's military hardware. And a huge nail in the coffin for the future of Russia's military export industry.
Morality, in its simplest sense, concerns itself with questions and judgments about right and wrong. While there are many moral issues about which there can be vigorous debate (ex: legalization of prostitution), there are many about which there is universal, or near-universal, agreement. I would submit that an example of the latter category is the calculated murder of an innocent child. I know of no country, society, or system of laws, in which that is not viewed as morally wrong (to put it mildly). So that fact provides a suitable foundation for this thought experiment:
1. On the other side of the world, an innocent child is murdered by a shot to the head. The murderer publicly admits committing the act and further states that he acted on orders from superiors. You don't personally know any of the individuals involved.
Q: What feelings, if any, does the above scenario generate within you?
2. On the other side of your country, an innocent child is murdered by a shot to the head. The murderer publicly admits committing the act and further states that he acted on orders from superiors. You don't personally know any of the individuals involved.
Q: Same as for #1.
3. On the other side of your city or town an innocent child is murdered by a shot to the head. The murderer publicly admits committing the act and further states that he acted on orders from superiors. You don't personally know any of the individuals involved, but you're familiar with the neighborhood.
Q: Same as for #1.
4. On the other side of your street, an innocent child is murdered by a shot to the head. The murderer publicly admits committing the act and further states that he acted on orders from superiors. You've personally seen the child playing in the neighborhood and you've exchanged pleasantries with the child's parents.
Q: Same as for #1.
5. In your own home, directly in front of you, an innocent child is murdered by a shot to the head. The murderer publicly admits committing the act and further states that he acted on orders from superiors. In this scenario, the child is your daughter or son, or perhaps a grandchild or other beloved family member.
Q: Same as #1.
Discussion: Every morally relevant element is the same in each scenario. The only variables are the proximity of the event and the level of personal knowledge of the area and victim. And, since the event is one that's generally acknowledged to be morally wrong (if not heinous, reprehensible, etc.), then one's reactions arguably provide a sort of barometer of moral sensitivity.
If scenarios 1 and 2 generate feelings like outrage, feelings of anger and hate against the perpetrator, desire for justice (or even revenge), then it's fair to say you tend to fall within the highly sensitive segment of the moral spectrum.
If you start to have similar feelings when events unfold as in scenario 3, I would argue that's the part of the spectrum in which a sizeable percentage (majority?) of people fall. After all, people live busy lives and understandably don't necessarily think much about (relatively) distant happenings.
Scenario 4 is where the rubber, morally speaking, really meets the road (or street). If you're not feeling outrage at this point, I'd suggest you'd be well advised (IMO) to examine the foundations and underpinnings of your personal moral sense.
Scenario 5, it's fair to say, is where 99.999% of people will absolutely have feelings of anger, outrage, grief, etc. However, if that's the ONLY scenario that moves you, and if every other scenario gets a "shit happens" (or similar) response from you, that's a hugely sad commentary on your moral sense, IMO.
BTW, in NONE of the above scenarios do I pretend to have the right to tell anyone how they SHOULD feel. An individual's feelings are entirely up to them. However, what the experiment illustrates is that there is a spectrum in the moral dimension, and also that there are ways in which you can assess, for yourself, approximately where you fall on that spectrum.
Also, while everyone is entitled to their own feelings, and entitled to NOT be lectured about how they SHOULD feel, it's perfectly fair to make assessments based on what people have said for themselves. As one example, for the PutinFanBoyz who exult and applaud events like the one described above, I would argue that the moral labels "evil" and "reprehensible" are appropriate. For those who feel nothing until scenario 4, I would argue that the moral labels "obtuse," or perhaps "blind," could be used. Finally, for someone who can't be bothered to have feelings until the events of scenario 5 splatter blood on their own shoes, I would argue that the moral label "cripple" applies.
Everyone can judge and evaluate for themselves. And, if anyone thinks the experiment is flawed, in either its premises or design, I'm happy to debate the topic.
[QUOTE=Jmsuttr;2817002][URL]https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/four-russian-aircraft-shot-down-within-their-own-borders[/URL]
One bomber, one fighter escort, two helicopters, and an estimated 9 aviators eliminated. And reportedly it all happened about 50 km INSIDE Russia.
3. All four aircraft were shot down by Ukraine. Possible methods include: a) Ukrainian Special Forces who successfully infiltrated Russian territory and used some type of MANPAD system; b) Pro-Ukraine partisans using MANPADs; c) Ukrainian forces using ground-based anti-aircraft systems, which would need to be brought close to the border, or into Russia, in order to be effective, or; d) Ukrainian fighters using air-to-air missiles.[/QUOTE]With respect to the last option above (air-to-air), here's an opinion-analysis by someone who claims to have experience and knowledge of the equipment and issues discussed. I don't know the author and neither do I know whether his analysis is accurate. My reason for posting is simply as info, and because I haven't seen this analysis anywhere else. And, if it's a correct assessment, it could have significant implications for use of air assets in the war.
[URL]https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1658188159815934014.html[/URL]
The thread is in German, but Google translate worked well for me.
Also, one possible way to evaluate if this author is onto something will be to observe the behavior of Russian aircraft, going forward. Accident or malfunction shouldn't cause a general change in behavior, and neither should friendly fire (assuming the cause is found and corrected). But a new Ukrainian air-to-air attack capability would likely have an effect on when and where Russia decides to use its aircraft.
[QUOTE=WyattEarp;2817394]Oh my JM, how brash and insolent o fme to suggest that perhaps you have some personal animosity towards Russia that goes beyond a distant observer. (By the way, anyone can appear to be winning an argument on social media by trying to reshape the discussion into something else. Excessive drama over an innocuous comment, turning posts into a question of morality.).[/QUOTE]Well, I don't know Wyatt. Seeing HOW (with medieval brutality) and WHY (to wipe Ukraine off the map) they are waging this war, I honestly don't understand how any normal person of any creed and national origin can feel anything other than "some personal animosity towards Russia. " What do you feel towards Russia?
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2817924]Well, I don't know Wyatt. Seeing HOW (with medieval brutality) and WHY (to wipe Ukraine off the map) they are waging this war, I honestly don't understand how any normal person of any creed and national origin can feel anything other than "some personal animosity towards Russia. " What do you feel towards Russia?[/QUOTE]XMan, Ukraine should have been negotiating for months, instead they pressed there luck, now they are being wiped out. Pres. Z. Is drinking the same cool-aide you drink. This war should have never happened, and negotiations should have been going on from day one.
Now with the latest attack in Moscow, what did they think would happen.
By the way I was in MTY over the weekend, banging hot girls. I will be back in 8 days, with actual girls, join me. This is real world, not this fantasy world you live in. I do feel sorry for the Ukraine people, but I have zero compassion for there government. You conveniently forgot to talk about the corruption going on by he Ukraine government. , even the liberal media report this, but why bother bringing the corruption up.
All you do is complain and watch liberal news. Get a life.
Laurent Gerra: LE cirque Zelensky, bientôt proche de chez vous!
[URL]https://youtu.be/p-ZyUJAJb9U[/URL]
From French:
"he can be seen everywhere. Yesterday he visited the Elysée Palace. President Zelensky is touring with a circus. And now, an advertisement in support of Ukraine.
- Gilles Margaritis presents the "Zelensky Circus", which tours all over Europe with its menagerie! In Zelensky's circus you can see a very annoying beardless woman Ursula von der Leyen, Joe Biden an American equilibrist on magic walkers, the Macrons juggling pots, and the highlight of the program, a human cannonball from NATO's procurement. "Zelensky Circus" - yesterday in the Elysée Palace, tomorrow. In your city. ".
[QUOTE=Questner;2818221]he can be seen everywhere.[/QUOTE]Guess who is getting kicked out everywhere, the unwanted peoples.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2818201]XMan, Ukraine should have been negotiating for months, instead they pressed there luck, now they are being wiped out. Pres. Z. Is drinking the same cool-aide you drink. This war should have never happened, and negotiations should have been going on from day one.
Now with the latest attack in Moscow, what did they think would happen.
By the way I was in MTY over the weekend, banging hot girls. I will be back in 8 days, with actual girls, join me. This is real world, not this fantasy world you live in. I do feel sorry for the Ukraine people, but I have zero compassion for there government. You conveniently forgot to talk about the corruption going on by he Ukraine government. , even the liberal media report this, but why bother bringing the corruption up.
All you do is complain and watch liberal news. Get a life.[/QUOTE]They are not being wiped out, rather the opposite, they just got Storm Shadows, they will get more, and then F-16's, what do you think will happen to the Orcs when that comes online?
This war should not have happened, I think we all agree. The bloodthirsty, rapist, child kidnapping RuZZians cunts, should have stayed home.
Stop pretending to care about corruption, you are a disingenuous piece of Z filth. If you actually gave a fuck about corruption, you'd start with that shithole kleptocracy that is the State of Muscovy, when you've cleaned that up, we can have the discussion about Ukraine.
All you do is watch RT, take your head out of your ass and understand that your beloved country will not survive this war.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2818201]XMan, Ukraine should have been negotiating for months, instead they pressed there luck, now they are being wiped out. Pres. Z. Is drinking the same cool-aide you drink. This war should have never happened, and negotiations should have been going on from day one.
Now with the latest attack in Moscow, what did they think would happen.
By the way I was in MTY over the weekend, banging hot girls. I will be back in 8 days, with actual girls, join me. This is real world, not this fantasy world you live in. I do feel sorry for the Ukraine people, but I have zero compassion for there government. You conveniently forgot to talk about the corruption going on by he Ukraine government. , even the liberal media report this, but why bother bringing the corruption up.
All you do is complain and watch liberal news. Get a life.[/QUOTE]Russia is the homeland of corruption, and that's the way it's always been. In fact, to use a religious analogy, it's where the "Original Sin" of Soviet and Post-Soviet corruption can be traced. Whenever someone makes a comment about any kind of corruption in a country that was formerly part of the Soviet Union, they usually neglect to mention how that's part of the negative legacy imparted by the Kremlin-centered kleptocratic system.
When one looks at the countries that have successfully escaped that legacy, it's clear that the most successful have adopted European systems and left Russia (far behind) in the rear-view mirror. The Baltic nations are probably the clearest examples. And that's precisely the path Ukraine wants to pursue. Candidate status for EU membership means that anti-corruption efforts are not only required, but will be under close watch every step of the way. Going forward, Ukraine has every opportunity to evolve for the better, especially with respect to their governance.
Ukraine has a bright future ahead as part of the EU, and also of NATO. In stark contrast, Russia is choking on the vomit of their inbred corruption. They can't escape it because it's part of the fabric of their very existence. Russia operates under the Law of the Jungle, wherein the powerful prey upon the weak. Now that they've been thoroughly isolated they're reduced to eating their own, like a cage full of rabid dogs. And, IMO, Putin will not be able to escape the harvest he has sown.
[URL]https://www.thedailybeast.com/one-of-putins-biggest-mistakes-is-finally-catching-up-with-him[/URL]
Bottom-Line: Ukraine = hope. Russia = despair.
P.S. It's hard to negotiate with someone who wants to kill you and erase your nationhood. Especially if their position is something like "If you surrender, I'll only cut off your arm for now, but I'll still kill you later. " What's the point of negotiating with that? Better to resist with all your might and do your best to kill or cripple the rabid dog.
P. P.S. You keep making the same intellectually dishonest mistake as others (or perhaps it's intentional) by creating a false equivalence between aggressor and victim. The war should never have happened? Right, so why don't you tell that to Putin? He gave the order, no one else. And he can end the war anytime he wants.
[QUOTE=Questner;2818221]Laurent Gerra: LE cirque Zelensky, bientt proche de chez vous!
[URL]https://youtu.be/p-ZyUJAJb9U[/URL]
From French:
"he can be seen everywhere. Yesterday he visited the Elyse Palace. President Zelensky is touring with a circus. And now, an advertisement in support of Ukraine.
- Gilles Margaritis presents the "Zelensky Circus", which tours all over Europe with its menagerie! In Zelensky's circus you can see a very annoying beardless woman Ursula von der Leyen, Joe Biden an American equilibrist on magic walkers, the Macrons juggling pots, and the highlight of the program, a human cannonball from NATO's procurement. "Zelensky Circus" - yesterday in the Elyse Palace, tomorrow. In your city. ".[/QUOTE]It's shooting down Russia's most modern, allegedly "unstoppable" hypersonic missiles. Oh, and the best part about it is that they were shot down with Western anti-aircraft technology that's about 40 years old!
Hear that flushing sound? That's the sound of future Russian weapons contracts going down the toilet.
Can't wait for the NEXT act!
[QUOTE=VinDici;2818353]They are not being wiped out, rather the opposite, they just got Storm Shadows, they will get more, and then F-16's, what do you think will happen to the Orcs when that comes online?
This war should not have happened, I think we all agree. The bloodthirsty, rapist, child kidnapping RuZZians cunts, should have stayed home.
Stop pretending to care about corruption, you are a disingenuous piece of Z filth. If you actually gave a fuck about corruption, you'd start with that shithole kleptocracy that is the State of Muscovy, when you've cleaned that up, we can have the discussion about Ukraine.
All you do is watch RT, take your head out of your ass and understand that your beloved country will not survive this war.[/QUOTE]M.
Ukraine is being wiped out both directly and indirectly. Yes, Pres. Z. Is a total piece of shit. He is being played by the Euors / Biden. His population is fleeing the country never to return or being killed. The infrastructure / economy is in ruins or being destroyed. I guess this is winning in your crazy Ass liberal world.
Yes, Putin is a terrible person, but he is winning, big time. Sanctions are not working, many parts of the world are in recession now and gas prices are high. Not to mention he is now in partnership with many of our enemies. Great job!
[QUOTE=Jmsuttr;2818496]Russia is the homeland of corruption, and that's the way it's always been. In fact, to use a religious analogy, it's where the "Original Sin" of Soviet and Post-Soviet corruption can be traced. Whenever someone makes a comment about any kind of corruption in a country that was formerly part of the Soviet Union, they usually neglect to mention how that's part of the negative legacy imparted by the Kremlin-centered kleptocratic system.
When one looks at the countries that have successfully escaped that legacy, it's clear that the most successful have adopted European systems and left Russia (far behind) in the rear-view mirror. The Baltic nations are probably the clearest examples. And that's precisely the path Ukraine wants to pursue. Candidate status for EU membership means that anti-corruption efforts are not only required, but will be under close watch every step of the way. Going forward, Ukraine has every opportunity to evolve for the better, especially with respect to their governance.
Ukraine has a bright future ahead as part of the EU, and also of NATO. In stark contrast, Russia is choking on the vomit of their inbred corruption. They can't escape it because it's part of the fabric of their very existence. Russia operates under the Law of the Jungle, wherein the powerful prey upon the weak. Now that they've been thoroughly isolated they're reduced to eating their own, like a cage full of rabid dogs. And, IMO, Putin will not be able to escape the harvest he has sown.
[URL]https://www.thedailybeast.com/one-of-putins-biggest-mistakes-is-finally-catching-up-with-him[/URL]
Bottom-Line: Ukraine = hope. Russia = despair.
P.S. It's hard to negotiate with someone who wants to kill you and erase your nationhood. Especially if their position is something like "If you surrender, I'll only cut off your arm for now, but I'll still kill you later. " What's the point of negotiating with that? Better to resist with all your might and do your best to kill or cripple the rabid dog.
P. P.S. You keep making the same intellectually dishonest mistake as others (or perhaps it's intentional) by creating a false equivalence between aggressor and victim. The war should never have happened? Right, so why don't you tell that to Putin? He gave the order, no one else. And he can end the war anytime he wants.[/QUOTE]It takes 2 to have a war. Yes, Putin is the aggressor and a bad guy. If you think Ukraine are saints, your drinking the same crap Xman is drinking.
Ukraine had a chance for a bright future, but they screwed it up, mostly because of corruption and greed.
You should always negotiate.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2818516]M.
Ukraine is being wiped out both directly and indirectly. Yes, Pres. Z. Is a total piece of shit. He is being played by the Euors / Biden. His population is fleeing the country never to return or being killed. The infrastructure / economy is in ruins or being destroyed. I guess this is winning in your crazy Ass liberal world.
Yes, Putin is a terrible person, but he is winning, big time. Sanctions are not working, many parts of the world are in recession now and gas prices are high. Not to mention he is now in partnership with many of our enemies. Great job![/QUOTE]Can you point to a single post of yours that has been correct? Why do you even exist?
This week the RF denounced its participation in the Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe. This leads to an inevitable outcome: Ukraine Can't Join NATO.
[URL]https://www.theamericanconservative.com/ukraine-cant-join-nato/[/URL]
[URL]https://youtu.be/CR-78UGyhhQ[/URL]
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2818201]XMan, Ukraine should have been negotiating for months, instead they pressed there luck, now they are being wiped out. Pres. Z. Is drinking the same cool-aide you drink. This war should have never happened, and negotiations should have been going on from day one.
Now with the latest attack in Moscow, what did they think would happen.
By the way I was in MTY over the weekend, banging hot girls. I will be back in 8 days, with actual girls, join me. This is real world, not this fantasy world you live in. I do feel sorry for the Ukraine people, but I have zero compassion for there government. You conveniently forgot to talk about the corruption going on by he Ukraine government. , even the liberal media report this, but why bother bringing the corruption up.
All you do is complain and watch liberal news. Get a life.[/QUOTE]As I proved in my recent post (the one you've conveniently ignored) you've never been in MTY or anywhere else, and never banged hot girls. You are sad, pathetic Russian shill living in a one-bedroom apartment with your parents, working for Prigozhin's Internet Research Agency, or whatever they call it nowadays. The fact your bosses posted you to spam a mongering forum tells me that they consider you a loser with no prospects in life. Take their money while you can.
[QUOTE=Questner;2818570]This week the RF denounced its participation in the Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe...[/QUOTE]No wants to be in league with the Muscovites, Moldova is leaving, and others will too as the war goes on and Muscovy becomes less and less relevant.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2818516]M.
Ukraine is being wiped out both directly and indirectly. Yes, Pres. Z. Is a total piece of shit. He is being played by the Euors / Biden. His population is fleeing the country never to return or being killed. The infrastructure / economy is in ruins or being destroyed. I guess this is winning in your crazy Ass liberal world.
Yes, Putin is a terrible person, but he is winning, big time. Sanctions are not working, many parts of the world are in recession now and gas prices are high. Not to mention he is now in partnership with many of our enemies. Great job![/QUOTE]Ukraine is not being wiped out, they are taking back territory. Of course you RuZZbots hate Zelenskyy, he is everything you cannot have, he doesn't hide in bunkers, he is there for his people and leads from the front. The infrastructure is rebuilt at a record breaking pace, have you seen the rebuilt Bucha? Your homeland is such a shithole, the poor Ukrainian drone operators don't know if the area has already been bombed or not.
Europe has already committed to invest in Ukraine and rebuild after they eliminate the invaders, so the wartime economy will be rebuilt with assistance from allies. Who will help the Muscovites? Iran? North Korea? China, will take your land and resources, welcome to the new reality of becoming the Belarus of China.
Putin is losing, both support and stolen territory. His allies are openly critising him, all the public speaking events and parades are being cancelled or drastically reduced in scale. Is this the sign of a winner? Obviously not.
Sanctions are working really well, if you want to understand why the sanctions are completely fucking Muscovy, just keep watching the $RUB exchange rate. Even though the currency is not floated, it's going down the shitter, which is odd since it's not possible to trade (let that sink in). There's also a ton of other evidence such as export output, and the frustration of the Muscovites when they cannot do anything with $INR that they have collected, since India also has very strict currency controls, similar to the other best bud, China.
You are not on "our" side, you are a Z Rachist. No need to keep LARPing.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2818516]Ukraine is being wiped out both directly and indirectly. Yes, Pres. Z. Is a total piece of shit. He is being played by the Euors / Biden.[/QUOTE]I'd lay odds that Zelenskyy is more popular in Ukraine now than when he was first elected. He could easily have fled, but decided to stay and fight. He just visited Italy, Germany, France, the UK, Saudi Arabia, and he's currently in Japan attending the G-7 summit. Where's LilliPutin? Stuck in his Fuhrer-Bunker!
Far from being played, Zelenskyy is the Uber-Maestro. He's gotten HUGE support from the West, which has allowed Ukraine to greatly strengthen their military, and more. And did you miss my post about Germany's Chancellor Scholz declaring "Ukraine is Europe" and "Slava Ukraini"? That is positively mind-blowing!
BTW, it's virtually certain that billions will flow into Ukraine for post-war reconstruction. Ukraine will join the EU, and NATO, which will propel them forward with every expectation of a positive future. Russia will descend into the abyss for decades (generations?) to come.
Oh, you don't like Zelenskyy? Too fucking bad! He didn't start the war, and if he vanished tomorrow someone else would step up without missing a beat. Furthermore, I stand by my prediction that he'll be nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize, which he'll absolutely win.
[QUOTE]His population is fleeing the country never to return or being killed.[/QUOTE]When bombs and missiles are falling, moving out of range is the reasonable thing to do. You have absolutely no idea how many refugees will return, so there's zero factual basis for that statement. If, as I fully expect, Ukraine experiences a post-war construction and business boom (especially as EU integration nears) it's very likely that there will be an equally strong inflow of returnees and other immigrants.
Also, with the arrival of the newest air defenses, Ukraine has become highly efficient at intercepting Orc-missile attacks. That doesn't mean the danger is past, but it does reduce the pressure on people in Kyiv and other areas.
[QUOTE]The infrastructure / economy is in ruins or being destroyed.[/QUOTE]Some of it is, and much that's been destroyed has already been rebuilt. Have you seen photos of the reconstructed areas of Bucha? Have you bothered to notice that Ukraine is once again EXPORTING electricity? Great Britain experienced plenty of destruction during the Blitz, yet nobody used that as an excuse to make peace with Hitler.
And, with the BILLIONS in reconstruction money to come, Ukraine should have no problem rebuilding.
[QUOTE]I guess this is winning in your crazy Ass liberal world.[/QUOTE]You have NO FUCKING CLUE whether I'm a liberal, a conservative, or something else. There are Ukraine supporters in every segment of the political spectrum. One thing I ABSOLUTELY am is someone who carefully observes and evaluates REAL facts and evidence.
[QUOTE]Yes, Putin is a terrible person, but he is winning, big time.[/QUOTE]Yes, he's terrible (evil, actually) but no, he's not winning. I challenge you to produce one shred of OBJECTIVE evidence to back up that statement. And narrative and-or opinion do not qualify as evidence.
Hint: One Captain Obvious metric is to compare the amount of Russian-occupied territory today vs one year ago.
[QUOTE]Sanctions are not working,[/QUOTE]Sanctions are a constantly moving dynamic in which the West tries to stop or restrict various things and Russia tries to avoid them. For every example you could cite, I guarantee I could cite countervailing examples. The bottom-line is how everything translates to battlefield realities. If Russia is doing so well, why are they pulling decades-old tanks out of mothballs? If Russia is doing so well, why has the number of artillery rounds fired daily dropped so dramatically compared to months ago? If Russia is doing so well, why have their missile barrages become much less frequent? In sum, Russia's capabilities have been steadily eroded, and there are zero signs that they can adequately replenish those capabilities.
[QUOTE]many parts of the world are in recession now and gas prices are high.[/QUOTE]Ukrainians are being killed and couldn't care less about your gas prices (which have eased downward recently). And recessions come and go, even in peacetime, so that's a non sequitur. If you feel like complaining, you should send a letter to the Kremlin. Also, rather than any significant degree of "Ukraine fatigue" setting in, Western support remains firm. In fact, it looks like F-16's may be on the way, sooner rather than later.
[QUOTE]Not to mention he is now in partnership with many of our enemies. Great job![/QUOTE]Good! Better for the world to clearly see who supports Putin and his Orcs. The curtain has been pulled back and people can no longer pretend that Russia or China have "benign" intentions. And Russia is doing a great job turning themselves into a vassal state of China, effectively a larger version of North Korea. So, if China has to provide life-support to Russia, like they do for the Norks, that's an even heavier weight dragging them down. BTW, there's plenty of historic bad blood between Russia and China, so any "partnership" is likely to be less than smooth.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2818527]It takes 2 to have a war. Yes, Putin is the aggressor and a bad guy. If you think Ukraine are saints, your drinking the same crap Xman is drinking.
Ukraine had a chance for a bright future, but they screwed it up, mostly because of corruption and greed.
You should always negotiate.[/QUOTE]If someone wants to kill you, there's no "common ground" for negotiation. You resist and, if possible, kill your attacker, incapacitate them, or bloody them enough that they stop their attack.
I've never portrayed Ukraine as a saint. I've ABSOLUTELY portrayed them as a victim of aggression. How you feel about them is neither material nor relevant. They have an unqualified right to defend their lives and their country, full stop.
You seem to be drinking the same backward-looking propaganda-piss as Questner. Ukraine certainly has had corruption issues, no doubt about it. And the recent arrests of judges show the problem persists.
BUT, you ignore that they're moving forward to EU integration, which means corruption will need to be continually rooted out. And, since they see EU and NATO as essential for security and survival, serious anti-corruption efforts are viewed as mandatory, not optional. Something you also continually and disingenuously ignore is that EU officials will be evaluating Ukraine's progress every step of the way. Ukraine doesn't get to self-certify, they'll have to show real and measurable results.
Besides, whatever Ukraine's past or present problems, nothing justifies Putin's naked aggression. And nothing requires Ukraine to lay down and die. So the logical response is to kill as many Orcs as possible and shove the shards of their bones up Putin's ass. That should probably achieve the desired result, especially if the shards are shoved deep and with a firm twisting motion.
Finally, your intentional ignorance of demonstrable facts makes your Ukraine predictions both groundless and ludicrous. At least others are honestly anti-Ukraine, whereas you're a pathetic phony who pretends to be neutral. It's obvious you have Putin's dick in your mouth, no matter how hard you try to hide it.
[QUOTE=Questner;2818570]This week the RF denounced its participation in the Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe. This leads to an inevitable outcome: Ukraine Can't Join NATO.
[URL]https://www.theamericanconservative.com/ukraine-cant-join-nato/[/URL]
[URL]https://youtu.be/CR-78UGyhhQ[/URL][/QUOTE]All the Putin scum-sucking links you post can't change the absolute fact that Russia is a feeble shadow of its former self. They'll be lucky if they can preserve their own borders. Their master, China, has already started calling Vladivostok by its historic Chinese name.
Mandarin language classes will soon be required in Russian schools and Russian women will soon be shipped off to Beijing to serve as concubines to the Master (Han Chinese) Race!
In other words, Russia is not even in control of its own future. Much less does anyone outside Russia give a flying fuck what they say or want.
BTW, here's a trivia question for you:
Q: Name an international agreement that Russia (or USSR) hasn't broken or violated.
A: The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact!
With a top general MIA for the last two weeks it smells The Beggar of the Year 2022 is pissing his pants afraid to go back to his bunker.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2818609]As I proved in my recent post (the one you've conveniently ignored) you've never been in MTY or anywhere else, and never banged hot girls. You are sad, pathetic Russian shill living in a one-bedroom apartment with your parents, working for Prigozhin's Internet Research Agency, or whatever they call it nowadays. The fact your bosses posted you to spam a mongering forum tells me that they consider you a loser with no prospects in life. Take their money while you can.[/QUOTE]You are one crazy dude. Join me in MTY next weekend. Maybe you can take a break from watching CNN, going out in public might do you some good.
Moscow was my favorite city in the world pre-Covid, it was an amazing place. Now Covid and Putin have ruined my trips. As a result, I re-discovered CDMX and MTY. I am having the best sex of my life and having wild adventures. You should try and have sone fun instead of complaining all the time and living in a fantasy world.
[QUOTE=Questner;2818883]afraid to go back to his bunker.[/QUOTE]As opposed to the guy who is afraid to leave his bunker? Everyone knows who the coward is.
[QUOTE=Questner;2818883]With a top general MIA for the last two weeks it smells The Beggar of the Year 2022 is pissing his pants afraid to go back to his bunker.[/QUOTE]A tour of European capitals, a stopover at the Arab Summit, and an integral role at the G-7 Summit in Japan; Zelenskyy's diplomatic efforts have resulted in enthusiastic guarantees of support, as well as opening the door to F-16 pilot training and deliveries of that aircraft. Oh, and he was transported to Japan by a French government plane, so I imagine he was treated to some gourmet in-flight meals.
BTW, even your pathetic attempt at ridicule is an epic fail. Someone who is truly afraid would never risk stepping out of the bunker in the first place.
Which raises the question: Where LilliPutin? And where LilliPutin body-double?
P.S. Ukraine's top general staying out of the public eye, in the lead-up to a much-anticipated counteroffensive, very likely has the Orcs pissing their pants. Hopefully it won't be long before all that remains of those pants-pissers will be a wet spot in the dirt.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2818887]You are one crazy dude. Join me in MTY next weekend. Maybe you can take a break from watching CNN, going out in public might do you some good.
Moscow was my favorite city in the world pre-Covid, it was an amazing place. Now Covid and Putin have ruined my trips. As a result, I re-discovered CDMX and MTY. I am having the best sex of my life and having wild adventures. You should try and have sone fun instead of complaining all the time and living in a fantasy world.[/QUOTE]Since this is a Ukraine-focused subforum, your (alleged) Mexico mongering is irrelevant. What is relevant is your faux-neutrality and consistent anti-Ukraine drivel.
If you're having such a great time in CDMX and MTY, maybe you should spend more time with your head up some puta's twat, rather than up Putin's ass, eh?
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2818887]You are one crazy dude. Join me in MTY next weekend. Maybe you can take a break from watching CNN, going out in public might do you some good.
Moscow was my favorite city in the world pre-Covid, it was an amazing place. Now Covid and Putin have ruined my trips. As a result, I re-discovered CDMX and MTY. I am having the best sex of my life and having wild adventures. You should try and have sone fun instead of complaining all the time and living in a fantasy world.[/QUOTE]Yep, aha, in your dreams.
Here are your 3 talking points.
1. Ukraine is corrupt.
2. Ukraine is getting destroyed.
3. Ukraine must negotiate with Putin.
That's it! That's all you've been saying for the last 14 months of the war. Since then, things have changed dramatically on the battlefield and in the world. The only thing that hasn't changed is the same three dumb talking points you started with.
Oh, and that's great that you've been taught some city acronyms (although even then you're still confusing an IATA code MTY with the official name of the Mexican capital CDMX). But it doesn't change the fact that you're a fraud who's probably never been to Mexico or any country beyond your native Russia.
I've overheard the Saudis have offered Zed to renew his Personalausweis at their embassy in Istanbul. With around fifty thousand dead only in Artyomovsk since October 8, 2022 why wouldn't he accept the invitation? One thing is to take court to the circus and another completely is to bring circus into the court.
[QUOTE=Questner;2819177]I've overheard the Saudis have offered Zed to renew his Personalausweis at their embassy in Istanbul. With around fifty thousand dead only in Artyomovsk since October 8, 2022 why wouldn't he accept the invitation? One thing is to take court to the circus and another completely is to bring circus into the court.[/QUOTE]All you do is suck LilliPutin's dick and spit it out in this forum. And you're not even Putin's favorite dick-sucker, because you don't swallow!
What will you do when Putin gets flushed down the toilet with the rest of the Orc-turds?
[QUOTE=Questner;2819177]One thing is to take court to the circus and another completely is to bring circus into the court.[/QUOTE]Why don't you bring Putler to court, he has an open invitation from the ICC?
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2818887]You are one crazy dude. Join me in MTY next weekend. Maybe you can take a break from watching CNN, going out in public might do you some good.
Moscow was my favorite city in the world pre-Covid, it was an amazing place. Now Covid and Putin have ruined my trips. As a result, I re-discovered CDMX and MTY. I am having the best sex of my life and having wild adventures. You should try and have sone fun instead of complaining all the time and living in a fantasy world.[/QUOTE]Xpartan is back with the oft quoted Democratic douche move that you have never been to place X, something he wants to be true but is not, and this is why Xpartan is on ignore for me. Obviously, we have met in Monterrey and you have seen stunning women but Xpartan just makes shit up and is too dumb to believe any facts that do not fit the Democratic douche narrative.
Meanwhile, JM has drunk so much Kool Aid that he thinks it is possible that you can kill all these Russians and not have any dead Ukrainians as he pounds away on his keyboard on a hooker forum marshalling up support for Ukrainians being slaughtered. JM, if you are so fucking outraged, do as we have said so often before, go volunteer to fight you coward. You keep calling everyone Putin lovers where you sit on your ass watching Ukrainians die. How about you quit with the name calling and put YOUR ass on the line?
Trump had a town hall meeting on CNN, and his biggest applause line of the night was that he would stop people from dying in Ukraine. The idiotic CNN host was parroting the moronic Democratic douche line about Ukraine winning. He said he could stop the war in 24 hours and made the point that the USA had sent $170 billion in aid versus Europe's $20 billion. I have heard the Democratic douches say this is a war not just on Ukraine but Europe. Well, the European countries are not spending like it is a war on Europe.
And let's not forget that Ukraine was used to get Biden's God awful handling of Covid off the front pages. You remember that? Two years of nonstop headlines on Covid were gone from the front pages in an instant. I was actually in a country where they still had up the mask signs and social distancing and I just shake my head and ask, "How did so many people fall for this complete bullshit?" I imagine we will be asking the same about this war some day.
The Democrats lied their asses off about Putin stealing the 2016 election and their response now is he is a madman. Well, here is a great idea. Let's make up a complete lie about a madman and see what he does. If you are a Democratic douche, the 2016 lies and the Ukraine invasion have nothing to do with each other, but in actuality, it proved to Putin beyond a shadow of a doubt he could not trust the Democrats. And I have said this about these douches before but when it comes to everything but nukes, Putin is a madman. With nukes though, they want to believe he is stone cold rational.
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2819585]Xpartan is back with the oft quoted Democratic douche move that you have never been to place X, something he wants to be true but is not, and this is why Xpartan is on ignore for me. Obviously, we have met in Monterrey and you have seen stunning women but Xpartan just makes shit up and is too dumb to believe any facts that do not fit the Democratic douche narrative.
Meanwhile, JM has drunk so much Kool Aid that he thinks it is possible that you can kill all these Russians and not have any dead Ukrainians as he pounds away on his keyboard on a hooker forum marshalling up support for Ukrainians being slaughtered. JM, if you are so fucking outraged, do as we have said so often before, go volunteer to fight you coward. You keep calling everyone Putin lovers where you sit on your ass watching Ukrainians die. How about you quit with the name calling and put YOUR ass on the line?
Trump had a town hall meeting on CNN, and his biggest applause line of the night was that he would stop people from dying in Ukraine. The idiotic CNN host was parroting the moronic Democratic douche line about Ukraine winning. He said he could stop the war in 24 hours and made the point that the USA had sent $170 billion in aid versus Europe's $20 billion. I have heard the Democratic douches say this is a war not just on Ukraine but Europe. Well, the European countries are not spending like it is a war on Europe..[/QUOTE]You are truly all over the fucking map with this one. Are you congenitally unable to form a coherent thought? Are you mentally incapable of constructing any kind of reasoned argument? All the evidence of your posting history suggests not!
In a single rant you whine about Xpartan, me, CNN, COVID, and the 2016 election. Wow, that probably sets a new record for rambling, congrats!
Xpartan can speak for himself, and your other ramblings are so incoherent that they wither on their own, so I'll just speak to your asinine bleatings about me.
1. About outrage, you obviously haven't read my earlier post in which I proposed a moral thought experiment. I challenge you to respond to that post and show why my feelings of moral outrage are misplaced. If you want to be a moral reprobate, that's your choice. But trying to belittle moral outrage that is completely justified does nothing but display your amorality. If karma is a thing, you might want to keep an eye out for life to deal you a personal blow that moves you to outrage. And, if and when some atrocity hits you personally, please feel free to come back and post about your newly awakened moral sensibilities. In the meantime, for all the moral pygmies in this forum, go fuck yourselves.
1. About my efforts on behalf of Ukraine, I support them in ways that you have no fucking clue about. If you're so anti-Ukraine, why aren't you with Wagner PMC on the front lines of Bakhmut? And why do you continually deny Putin's agency? He gave the marching order on Feb 24th. Is he a puppet, or did he act as a free agent? You can't have it both ways. If he's a free agent, then he's responsible for ordering the invasion, full stop.
3. About the name-calling, I only do it when it's 100% justified and accurate. So, as pertains to you specifically, it's hard to find a single name that adequately captures your idiocy. Mental midget comes to mind, but I'm sure there are others equally suitable.
Meanwhile, if you'd like to learn how to be less incoherent, here are some tips:
[URL]https://literaryterms.net/when-and-how-to-write-coherently/[/URL]
Of course, it's highly unlikely that you care. And equally unlikely that you'd be able to comprehend the tutorial.
4. Any questions?
P.S. I've never claimed that Russians can be killed while avoiding Ukrainian casualties. I challenge you to produce one shred of evidence to back up your BS claim. You can't, and won't, because that's just another one of your blatant lies. Your recurring falsehoods really make anything and everything you post nothing more than a bile-filled stinking puddle of dog vomit.
[QUOTE=Jmsuttr;2819719]You are truly all over the fucking map with this one. Are you congenitally unable to form a coherent thought? Are you mentally incapable of constructing any kind of reasoned argument? All the evidence of your posting history suggests not!
In a single rant you whine about Xpartan, me, CNN, COVID, and the 2016 election. Wow, that probably sets a new record for rambling, congrats!
Xpartan can speak for himself, and your other ramblings are so incoherent that they wither on their own, so I'll just speak to your asinine bleatings about me.
1. About outrage, you obviously haven't read my earlier post in which I proposed a moral thought experiment. I challenge you to respond to that post and show why my feelings of moral outrage are misplaced. If you want to be a moral reprobate, that's your choice. But trying to belittle moral outrage that is completely justified does nothing but display your amorality. If karma is a thing, you might want to keep an eye out for life to deal you a personal blow that moves you to outrage. And, if and when some atrocity hits you personally, please feel free to come back and post about your newly awakened moral sensibilities. In the meantime, for all the moral pygmies in this forum, go fuck yourselves.
1. About my efforts on behalf of Ukraine, I support them in ways that you have no fucking clue about. If you're so anti-Ukraine, why aren't you with Wagner PMC on the front lines of Bakhmut? And why do you continually deny Putin's agency? He gave the marching order on Feb 24th. Is he a puppet, or did he act as a free agent? You can't have it both ways. If he's a free agent, then he's responsible for ordering the invasion, full stop.
3. About the name-calling, I only do it when it's 100% justified and accurate. So, as pertains to you specifically, it's hard to find a single name that adequately captures your idiocy. Mental midget comes to mind, but I'm sure there are others equally suitable.
Meanwhile, if you'd like to learn how to be less incoherent, here are some tips:
[URL]https://literaryterms.net/when-and-how-to-write-coherently/[/URL]
Of course, it's highly unlikely that you care. And equally unlikely that you'd be able to comprehend the tutorial.
4. Any questions?[/QUOTE]Everything you have written above is just pure bullshit. You attack none of the arguments and go off on me.
[QUOTE=Jmsuttr;2819719]P.S. I've never claimed that Russians can be killed while avoiding Ukrainian casualties. I challenge you to produce one shred of evidence to back up your BS claim.[/QUOTE]No, it is just a lie of omission. You keep blathering on about Russians dying and casually forget to mention the Ukrainians who have died to produce that result. But hey, you can talk of victory of a hooker forum with no cost to yourself and imagine the hundreds of billions of dollars coming in from God knows where to rebuild the country, but none of that really matters. All that matters is your wearing a yellow and blue pin showing your "support" for Ukraine (whatever the hell that means). By all means, JM, keep patting yourself on the back and keep telling yourself that your caring about Ukraine (not the people dying but the mission and the associated "victory") makes you a morally superior person.
[URL]https://youtu.be/5U4RSrl9Gwo[/URL]
How often would you see a Hollywood movie scenario where an ideological and greedy gang of terrorists with 'all-or-nothing' attitude hijacks a plane? The assassins start on executing the passengers until their demands are met. With a help of few brave the only marshal on board tries to convince the gang leader and their associates to land and free everyone onboard. The marshal has a deadline as he knows that the plane can be shot down off the skies.
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2819780]Everything you have written above is just pure bullshit. You attack none of the arguments and go off on me.
No, it is just a lie of omission. You keep blathering on about Russians dying and casually forget to mention the Ukrainians who have died to produce that result. But hey, you can talk of victory of a hooker forum with no cost to yourself and imagine the hundreds of billions of dollars coming in from God knows where to rebuild the country, but none of that really matters. All that matters is your wearing a yellow and blue pin showing your "support" for Ukraine (whatever the hell that means). By all means, JM, keep patting yourself on the back and keep telling yourself that your caring about Ukraine (not the people dying but the mission and the associated "victory") makes you a morally superior person.[/QUOTE]If you had the intellectual capacity to actually formulate a coherent argument, maybe a response would be possible. But ranting is not the same as arguing. Too bad you can't tell the difference.
Oh, and what a complete and total pussy you must be to whine about my "going off on you" when it was YOU who took a blatantly personal swipe at me.
But you already established what a TOTAL pussy you are with this simple admission:
"this is why Xpartan is on ignore for me".
ROTFLMAO! Wow! Do you need ISG to create a "Safe Space in Kyiv" forum where you won't need to worry about getting your widdle feewings hurt? Is there a better example of pathetic and teminal pussiness than that? I don't think so.
And, once again you stoop to lies because you can't point to a SINGLE thing I've posted to back up your ludicrous straw man assertions. And, since you can't actually quote anything I've said, you just make shit up.
BTW, Mr. Faux-no-balls-patriot, what are YOU doing to fight against the nefarious forces you see around every corner and behind every tree? Did you get arrested with the Jan 6th protesters? Or are you just wearing a "J-6" pin in support?
That's actually rhetorical, no need to answer. Someone who is so pussified that they have to hit the "ignore" button probably pisses themselves at the drop of a hat.
Clean-up on Aisle Elvis!
P.S. Why don't you put me, and everyone else (except Drama and Questner) on ignore? Then you could enjoy an endlessly delusional menage a trois! Or maybe it'd just be a circle-jerk?
[QUOTE=Questner;2819845][URL]https://youtu.be/5U4RSrl9Gwo[/URL]
How often would you see a Hollywood movie scenario where an ideological and greedy gang of terrorists with 'all-or-nothing' attitude hijacks a plane? The assassins start on executing the passengers until their demands are met. With a help of few brave the only marshal on board tries to convince the gang leader and their associates to land and free everyone onboard. The marshal has a deadline as he knows that the plane can be shot down off the skies.[/QUOTE]Evil bully and his gang terrorize a small town. The townspeople rally around their sheriff, defeat the evil bully and his gang, and kill or arrest all the bad guys.
The townspeople and their sheriff live happily ever after.
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2819780]You attack none of the arguments and go off on me.[/QUOTE]Resolved: Vladimir Putin personally gave the order to invade Ukraine. Therefore, by definition, Putin is the aggressor.
Evidence in support:
1. In the early hours of Feb 24th, 2022, Russian forces entered Ukraine and advanced on multiple axes, including toward Kyiv.
2. In the early hours of Feb 24th, 2022, Putin publicly announced the invasion, calling it a "Special Military Operation".
3. Absent evidence that Putin was acting against his own will, the logical conclusion is that Putin was acting as a free agent.
4. At the time Putin ordered the invasion, there were no foreign troops (NATO, Ukraine, etc.) on Russian soil.
5. At the time Putin ordered the invasion, Ukraine was much weaker, militarily, and posed no credible threat to Russia.
6. At the time Putin ordered the invasion, NATO was an alliance of 30 nations, with unanimous consent required before any military action could be initiated.
7. At the time Putin ordered the invasion, NATO was an alliance of 30 nations, of which several (Hungary, Turkey, Germany, France, etc.) were on good terms with Russia and would never have approved military action against it.
8. Items 6 and 7, taken together, are prima facie evidence that NATO posed no credible threat to Russia.
Conclusion: Absent any credible threat against it, Russia launched a war and invasion against Ukraine. And it did so on the free-will orders of Putin. Therefore, Putin is the aggressor.
See how that works? Feel free (if you can) to debate any of the points I raised in support of the argument.
"SM-3: The ICBM Stopper. The newest SM-3 variant, Block IIA, has shown it can actually play a role in taking down enemy intercontinental ballistic missiles.
It can do so by being thrust just beyond the boundary of the Earth's atmosphere, where it can take out an ICBM just as the missile finishes its mid-course phase and descends into a terminal phase within the atmosphere.
This is incredibly significant and a historic breakthrough that was first confirmed during a test in 2020".
[URL]https://www.19fortyfive.com/2023/05/sm-3-iia-the-missile-that-could-kill-russian-of-chinese-icbms-in-a-war/[/URL]
If this is the level of information that's publicly available (since 2020), then I imagine the classified info is likely to be quite eye-opening.
And, if this is what's publicly known, I imagine both Russia and China have been working overtime to figure out how this affects their nuclear calculus.
All nuclear powers routinely monitor the weapons tests of other nuclear powers, so Russia and China would have some idea of the missile's capabilities.
If the US has truly developed a reliable ICBM stopper, and if we have an adequate supply, that's potentially a game changing development.
[QUOTE=Questner;2819845]as he knows that the plane can be shot down off the skies.[/QUOTE]Do you mean when the Raschists shot down an innocent passenger plane MH17? Raschists have always been terrorists it seems, thanks for reminding everyone.
How's it going in Belgorod BTW?
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2819585]Xpartan is back with the oft quoted Democratic douche move that you have never been to place X, something he wants to be true but is not, and this is why Xpartan is on ignore for me. Obviously, we have met in Monterrey and you have seen stunning women but Xpartan just makes shit up and is too dumb to believe any facts that do not fit the Democratic douche narrative.[/QUOTE]Can't stay away, can you, Elvis? I've already explained to you that it's not "ignore" when you talk about someone, but not to someone. You're still reading, still paying attention and still getting aggravated.
What's the point, really?
[QUOTE=Jmsuttr;2819874]Resolved: Vladimir Putin personally gave the order to invade Ukraine. Therefore, by definition, Putin is the aggressor.
Evidence in support:
1. In the early hours of Feb 24th, 2022, Russian forces entered Ukraine and advanced on multiple axes, including toward Kyiv.
2. In the early hours of Feb 24th, 2022, Putin publicly announced the invasion, calling it a "Special Military Operation".
3. Absent evidence that Putin was acting against his own will, the logical conclusion is that Putin was acting as a free agent.
4. At the time Putin ordered the invasion, there were no foreign troops (NATO, Ukraine, etc.) on Russian soil.
5. At the time Putin ordered the invasion, Ukraine was much weaker, militarily, and posed no credible threat to Russia.[/QUOTE]Yawn. How about posting 2 and 2 equal 4. Everyone here knows all that you dumb Democratic douche. I had a Driver's Ed teacher say that when you get into an accident, "Does it really matter whose fault it is?" Does it matter how the war started or is it important that it ends? Unless you are thinking of invading Russia (and that latest idiocy about shooting down ICBMs) makes me wonder if you are crazy enough to advocate that, do you get that there has to be a deal worked with Putin and that means addressing his feelings and those of the Russian people? You can cry to the heavens how dumb Putin and the Russians are for invading Ukraine but unless they feel secure about their borders, this war is not going to end.
But I have seen this dumb Democratic douche movie before. At its worst with Covid, we had these idiotic Democratic douches literally advocating for not medically treating the unvaccinated. And now we have a dumb shit Democratic douche in you literally cheering on death in this war. You really need to go out and get laid bro.
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2820045]Yawn. How about posting 2 and 2 equal 4. [/QUOTE]Shit, I love math. Allow me to help.
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2820045]I had a Driver's Ed teacher say that when you get into an accident, "Does it really matter whose fault it is?" [/QUOTE]Why yes, Elvis, it does!
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2820045]Does it matter how the war started?[/QUOTE]Fuck yes, Elvis, it does!
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2820045]Or is it important that it ends? [/QUOTE]Fuck yes, but you've forgotten one more:
Is it important [B]how[/B] it ends? Because, my shrimp-headed friend, it's very fucking important [B]how[/B] wars end.
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2820045]Unless you are thinking of invading Russia (and that latest idiocy about shooting down ICBMs) makes me wonder if you are crazy enough to advocate that, do you get that there has to be a deal worked with Putin and that means addressing his feelings and those of the Russian people? You can cry to the heavens how dumb Putin and the Russians are for invading Ukraine but unless they feel secure about their borders, this war is not going to end.[/QUOTE]Tell me, wise one, should we have made a deal with Hitler back in 1940's?
Just yes or no. Yes or fucking no, Elvis? Be honest now. What do you really think?
Oh and I snipped your misplaced Covid idiocy. I know you can't help it, so -- you're welcome.
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2820045]
And now we have a dumb shit Democratic douche in you literally cheering on death in this war. You really need to go out and get laid bro.[/QUOTE]Almost every suburban high school in my metro area has a few refugee Ukrainians. I can tell you absolutely there's no dad here that would send his boy into that human tragedy. Yet, fools that have nothing to do with country advocate more death.
[URL]https://t.me/ministry_of_defense_ua/7655[/URL]
Wagner captures Russian commander as Prigozhin feud with army escalates.
[URL]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/05/wagner-group-release-video-of-captured-russian-commander[/URL]
[URL]https://nypost.com/2023/06/05/russian-officer-captured-accused-of-firing-on-mercenaries/[/URL]
TL; DR.
So having finally "captured" a town of Bakhmut (after 9+ months of heavy fighting and 20,000+ dead Russians), Prigozhin, the head of PMC Wagner, decides it's time to withdraw. Because, you know, capturing a town is one thing, but holding it is another, and he knew that "holding" part would be problematic. The Army command, however, has other idea and it sends a unit that mines the routs Wagner is using to retreat. That doesn't sit well with Prigozhin, so he sends his desperados, who promptly kill a few (probably a dozen) Russian soldiers and take their lieutenant-colonel prisoner.
Question: How does the Russian Ministry of Defense react?
Answer: Like nothing happened.
Prigozhin is allowed to withdraw his unit out of Bakhmut, and the AFU promptly moved in. They're now controlling the western and southern outskirts of the city.
This is how their war will end. The Russian snake will eat itself by confusing its own tail for an enemy.
Do I smell sulfur in the air again?
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2824060]Wagner captures Russian commander as Prigozhin feud with army escalates.
[URL]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/05/wagner-group-release-video-of-captured-russian-commander[/URL]
[URL]https://nypost.com/2023/06/05/russian-officer-captured-accused-of-firing-on-mercenaries/[/URL]
TL; DR.
So having finally "captured" a town of Bakhmut (after 9+ months of heavy fighting and 20,000+ dead Russians), Prigozhin, the head of PMC Wagner, decides it's time to withdraw. Because, you know, capturing a town is one thing, but holding it is another, and he knew that "holding" part would be problematic. The Army command, however, has other idea and it sends a unit that mines the routs Wagner is using to retreat. That doesn't sit well with Prigozhin, so he sends his desperados, who promptly kill a few (probably a dozen) Russian soldiers and take their lieutenant-colonel prisoner.
Question: How does the Russian Ministry of Defense react?
Answer: Like nothing happened.
Prigozhin is allowed to withdraw his unit out of Bakhmut, and the AFU promptly moved in. They're now controlling the western and southern outskirts of the city.
This is how their war will end. The Russian snake will eat itself by confusing its own tail for an enemy.[/QUOTE]Is this another one of your fantasy. Ukraine is getting destroyed, do you really believe this crap.
[QUOTE=Questner;2824104]Do I smell sulfur in the air again?[/QUOTE]Yes, you love the smell of your own farts you RuZZian piece of shit.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2824124]Is this another one of your fantasy. Ukraine is getting destroyed, do you really believe this crap.[/QUOTE]After the war, there will be no Russian Federation, the country will split apart. Better suck up that copium you piece of shit.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2824124]Is this another one of your fantasy. Ukraine is getting destroyed, do you really believe this crap.[/QUOTE]How have your previous predictions worked out? Have you ever been right?
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2824124]Is this another one of your fantasy. Ukraine is getting destroyed, do you really believe this crap.[/QUOTE]You're not even trying, tovarisch.
Zero work ethics!
The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.
He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.
[QUOTE=Questner;2824418]The Lord will strike down all Z fuckheads[/QUOTE]Idolise that man, he may yet preside over the duchy of musovy when the Federation breaks ups.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2824370]How have your previous predictions worked out? Have you ever been right?[/QUOTE]He's never been right about anything, he's been throwing shade on Ukraine long before the war started. The guy is a Vatnik idiot, similarly to Q there is no benefit to reasoning with them, they don't deserve intellectual engagement, mockery is enough. I managed to get a picture of the two of those idiots together.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2824370]How have your previous predictions worked out? Have you ever been right?[/QUOTE]Well, he repeats the same exact drivel for the last 1. 5 years, so he must be on to something, right? LOL!
[QUOTE]3.22: There will be nothing will be left of Ukraine
5.22: Ukraine is now losing and it is only going to get worse.
7.22: Ukraine is being destroyed
12.22: Ukraine is screwed either way
2.23: Ukraine is being wiped out.
4.23: Ukraine is getting destroyed.
5.23: . . . they are being wiped out.
6.23: Ukraine is getting destroyed. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=VinDici;2824513]He's never been right about anything, he's been throwing shade on Ukraine long before the war started. The guy is a Vatnik idiot, similarly to Q there is no benefit to reasoning with them, they don't deserve intellectual engagement, mockery is enough. I managed to get a picture of the two of those idiots together.[/QUOTE]You are smoking the same crap Xman is smoking. You guys never talk about how the west and the Euro's are destroying and using Ukraine, in an attempt to get back at Putin.
The Ukraine military has obviously out performed everyone expectations, but they are running out of gas and men, but in your liberal world, they can magically produce more men. A tie is not a win for Ukraine, not like in your crazy ass liberal world.
Funny you liberals never talk about negotiations or a settlement, just keep the war going. Meanwhile Ukraine keeps getting destroyed, Ukraine infrastructure is in shambles, civilians that are lucky enough to leave the country, never to return, so many civilians lives are being destroyed, and 2-3 generations of men is being wiped out. Yes, Ukraine is winning!
Xman, I am heading back to MTY this weekend again, join me, to actually be with real girls. , maybe you can leave your computer for a weekend. They have CNN in Mexico, your keep watching your favorite channel. This is real world un-like the fantasy world you live in. Keep up the lies and manipulation of the truth.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2825014]Vatnik cope and mumbling[/QUOTE]You don't need to be a liberal to want war mongering invaders to fuck off and die. Don't talk to us, just drop your weapons and fuck off back to Muscovy, when you do that we can have a long talk. Asking for talks while you are invading someone else's country as committing war crimes daily is not an option you obtuse disingenuous piece of shit. Whatever part of the political spectrum a person is on, they don't want murdering RuZZian bastards running roughshod over Ukrainian land. Get that through your thick Vatnik skull.
No one wants to hang out with filthy muscovians, go fuck yourself.
Should I care about few worthless and heartless troglodytes? Nope. But you should know that only in Artyomovsk (Bakhmut) the AFU lost more that the US during the whole Vietnam War. Only in a couple of recent days the human toll was more than the US lost during the whole 20 years in Afghanistan. Hundreds of millions of equipment has been burned, all paid by deficit borrowing.
The table of Bakhmut's losses attached:
[QUOTE=Questner;2825322]Should I care about few worthless and heartless troglodytes?[/QUOTE]Fuck you Orc shithead.
Clown land goes brrr, the world watches and laughs.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2825390]Fuck you Orc shithead.[/QUOTE]He's now attaching tables, don't you see? And the other "[I]Ukraine must be destroyed[/I]" fella has recently pasted a whole post with a few paragraphs. I don't know if their boss told them to work harder, but they're finally trying, it seems.
'Too little for a counteroffensive!
A new promising bunker with a toilet for Zed (alluding to Putin's legendary promise made in 2000 to kill terrorists everywhere be in while they are in the loo).
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2825569]He's now attaching tables, don't you see? And the other "[I]Ukraine must be destroyed[/I]" fella has recently pasted a whole post with a few paragraphs. I don't know if their boss told them to work harder, but they're finally trying, it seems.[/QUOTE]That pair of idiots, so much cope.
[QUOTE=Questner;2825588]alluding to Putin's legendary promise...[/QUOTE]Yo fuckhead, the one that keeps himself locked in the bunker while shitting himself isn't from UA. Even Nature hates RuZZian cunts. Why don't you go for a swim? We'll all watch.
Zed has been piling up amidst burned equipment.
The sullen green goblin and his predecessor now can only squawk from the bunker or a commode's hole: remember that was the fate they promised to the children of Donbass!
[QUOTE=Questner;2825935]The sullen orc sucks his own dick and cries while his money devalues by the second![/QUOTE]Do all ruZZians shit themselves uncontrollably or just you and Putin?
The only memory to remain of the two will be the flood.
[QUOTE=Questner;2826252]The only memory to remain of the two will be the flood.[/QUOTE]There will be many memories of the wretched criminals. It's all recorded.
At least 11 civilians are killed and dozens are wounded after a Russian missile hit an apartment building in Kryvyi Rih last night. Kryvyi Rih is Zelensky's hometown. The toll is expected to rise.
What a country!
And let's not forget the finest, morally incorruptible people who're tirelessly defending her atrocities all over the world, even here on this forum.
Seriously, let's not. I sincerely hope that we'll never forget them and their roles, no matter how small they might seem right now.
[URL]https://www.theamericanconservative.com/democratic-backsliding/[/URL]
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2826494]At least 11 civilians are killed and dozens are wounded after a Russian missile hit an apartment building in Kryvyi Rih last night. Kryvyi Rih is Zelensky's hometown. The toll is expected to rise.
What a country!
And let's not forget the finest, morally incorruptible people who're tirelessly defending her atrocities all over the world, even here on this forum.
Seriously, let's not. I sincerely hope that we'll never forget them and their roles, no matter how small they might seem right now.[/QUOTE]You really think Pres. Z. Is not doing the exact same thing. War is hell!
You may think it's the lame on the shoulders of the blind; alas, no, it's the blind leading the dead.
Last nine days for the AFU: 7,500 dead, 160 tanks and 360 armored vehicles lost.
You should have been invited to the yesterday's meeting with the military correspondents in Kremlin. No, you haven't? Well, maybe next time. Just poking.
Read my lips: [URL]https://youtu.be/9gN3k0UXpxQ[/URL].
[QUOTE=Questner;2826984]You should have been invited to the yesterday's meeting with the military correspondents in Kremlin.[/QUOTE]You should have fucked off back to Muscovy.
What an absolute shambles.
Looks like the Counter Offensive is having a lot of success. Getting rid of some of the worst criminals in the world. I thank Ukraine for this service to democracy and peace.
'Mein Kaput' is a new opera to be penned by Zed. Soon at garage sales in the West.
New patented green version o vaZELine by Zed and Co soon to be distributed among his gang of lowlife swindlers and traitors, good both for an Arschloch and lips during harsh Siberian winters.
[URL]https://youtu.be/5g2FYAL8D2w[/URL]
Zed is pooping his pants big time, and with couple of his henchmen already literally losing their brains, who will blame him?
[QUOTE=Questner;2827289][URL]https://youtu.be/5g2FYAL8D2w[/URL]
Zed is pooping his pants big time, and with couple of his henchmen already literally losing their brains, who will blame him?[/QUOTE]Moderator, this is a bot account. A waste of bandwidth.
[QUOTE=Questner;2827289]Zed is pooping his pants big time[/QUOTE]Everyone knows who falls down stairs and shits himself and it isn't VZ. So much cope you fucking loser.
War crimes are getting recorded and there will be a reckoning for these vile Z shits.
TASS has put together Putin's key answers.
On Ukrainian counteroffensive:
The losses that Kiev is facing during its so-called counteroffensive are ten times greater than Moscow's. The Ukrainian armed forces have already lost 186 tanks and 418 armored vehicles.
The main thing is that Kiev has achieved no success in any area.
Putin on future of F-16 jets:
The F-16 fighter jets that the West may send to Ukraine will face the same fate as the tanks that were provided to the country. The tanks are burning, including Leopards. F-16's will burn in the same way, there is no doubt about it.
If they are deployed to air bases beyond Ukraine but get involved in military activities, we will have to figure out where and how we can hit the equipment that is being used against us in combat. This creates a serious risk of NATO being dragged further into the armed conflict.
Putin on buffer zone:
By trying to attack the Kremlin and the Belgorod Region, Kiev is provoking Russia to take serious and strong retaliatory measures.
Russia can destroy any target in Kiev but sees no need to do so: We destroyed five Patriot systems outside Kiev, so we would not have any problem wiping out any building in downtown Kiev. We have the opportunity but don't have the need to do so.
If attacks on Russia's border regions continue, Moscow would consider the possibility of creating a buffer zone in Ukraine.
Putin on West's role in Ukraine:
The West seeks to shift the responsibility by accusing Russia of unleashing the conflict in Ukraine. However, we are well aware of how it all began.
Moscow was forced to use the army to help Donbass in a bid to end this armed conflict. Today, Western countries are doing their best to make Russia suffer a strategic defeat on the battlefield, while NATO is being dragged into the war in Ukraine.
Putin on nuclear weapons:
Russia will not hold talks on nuclear arms reduction with the West. No way!
Russia has no need to use nuclear weapons but in theory, it's definitely possible to use them: It would be possible if there is a threat to our territorial integrity, independence and sovereignty, as well as to the existence of the Russian state.
The first batch of tactical nuclear warheads has already been delivered to Belarus. We will fully complete this work by the end of the year.
(in fact the original No way! Was a polite version of No fucking way!
Putin onn Zelensky:
Since I was a child, I have always had many Jewish friends. They say that Zelensky is not Jewish, but a disgrace to the Jewish people.
(and you have to read the full interview in the full context of what has been said).
[QUOTE=Questner;2827581]The losses that Kiev is facing during its so-called counteroffensive are ten times greater than Moscow's. The Ukrainian armed forces have already lost 186 tanks and 418 armored vehicles.
The main thing is that Kiev has achieved no success in any area.[/QUOTE]The level cope is hilarious. This guy clearly has his head stuck right up his own ass.
[QUOTE=Questner;2827583]If they are deployed to air bases beyond Ukraine but get involved in military activities, we will have to figure out where and how we can hit the equipment that is being used against us in combat. This creates a serious risk of NATO being dragged further into the armed conflict.[/QUOTE]Go on, attack NATO you fucking idiots, then you really will see a 3 day war. What has been given to UA is deprecated stock, imagine what would happen if the actual state of the art equipment is deployed. Cope harder retards.
[QUOTE=Questner;2827586]Russia can destroy any target in Kiev but sees no need to do so: We destroyed five Patriot systems outside Kiev... If attacks on Russia's border regions continue, Moscow would consider the possibility of creating a buffer zone in Ukraine.[/QUOTE]Moscow can do fuck all, they are already losing this war and getting beaten by amateurs on the their own land. Amazing you destroyed 5 out of 2 patriot systems, is that in addition to the 50 HIMARS that Muscovy destroyed? Copium Extreme.
[QUOTE=Questner;2827591]It would be possible if there is a threat to our territorial integrity, independence and sovereignty, as well as to the existence of the Russian state.[/QUOTE]If you deploy nukes, that will be the end of the RuZZian state. At that point NATO will be forced to act and it will not stop until the state is destroyed. Cope harder fuckhead.
Looks like we have a picture of Questner. This is him every night reading about RuZZian getting fucked in the ass by Ukraine.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2827300]Moderator, this is a bot account. A waste of bandwidth.[/QUOTE]Not sure about the bot, but yesterday Questner spammed the forum with several bona fide Putin's propaganda lines. That's not an opinion; we're talking about a direct dissemination of propaganda from a fascist aggressor state. I don't know how it's not a blatant violation of the forum rules.
The Answer is right here [URL]https://www.forbes.com/sites/petersuciu/2023/06/06/leopard-2-tank-seen-destroyed-in-russian-media-video-was-actually-a-farm-harvester/?sh=55352f701dfd[/URL].
[QUOTE=Jojosun;2827889]The Answer is right here [URL]https://www.forbes.com/sites/petersuciu/2023/06/06/leopard-2-tank-seen-destroyed-in-russian-media-video-was-actually-a-farm-harvester/?sh=55352f701dfd[/URL].[/QUOTE]True: One of the social media posts on Telegram depicted a Spring 2022 video with what looks like an agricultural equipment targeted. Propaganda war is on, and no one has cancelled on critical thinking. However it doesn't change the reality on the ground. I can post videos with burned and destroyed equipment supplied by NATO, including tanks. There are couple of reasons and rules why I don't post them.
Bradley destroyed near abandoned Leopard tank:
[URL]https://t.me/RVvoenkor/47448[/URL]
Dutch. American armored M113 vehicles destroyed:
[URL]https://t.me/RVvoenkor/47467[/URL]
(warning: 18+).
Look that fucking idiot is at it again.
Senator Dick Black, GOP the VA Senate, Purple Heart Veteran:
Ukraine's offensive hit a steel wall. 7,000 KIA, 160 tanks and 360 armored vehicles destroyed in just one week with trivial gains. It is a pointless bloodbath. Charred Leopard tanks and Bradley vehicles lie everywhere. Telling Ukraine to fight "for as long as it takes" is inhuman. End this tragic war now. 7:34 am · 14 Jun 2023 2 M Views.
[URL]https://twitter.com/SenRichardBlack/status/1668945069636820993?s=20[/URL]
[QUOTE=Questner;2827931]Dutch. American armored M113 vehicles destroyed:
[URL]https://t.me/RVvoenkor/47467[/URL]
(warning: 18+).[/QUOTE]Moderator: this account is obviously a Russian bot. It should be blocked.
[QUOTE=Questner;2828189]Senator Dick Black, RuZZian shill lies his ass off as usual[/QUOTE]You keep forgetting that Muscovite Propaganda doesn't work outside of Muscovy you stupid fuck.
[QUOTE=Questner;2828189]Senator Dick Black, GOP the VA Senate, Purple Heart Veteran:
Ukraine's offensive hit a steel wall. 7,000 KIA, 160 tanks and 360 armored vehicles destroyed in just one week with trivial gains. It is a pointless bloodbath. Charred Leopard tanks and Bradley vehicles lie everywhere. Telling Ukraine to fight "for as long as it takes" is inhuman. End this tragic war now. 7:34 am 14 Jun 2023 2 M Views.
[URL]https://twitter.com/SenRichardBlack/status/1668945069636820993?s=20[/URL][/QUOTE]And Dick Black, the FORMER senator of Virginia Senate (and a cocksucker for Putin and Asad) strikes again, Now armed with the RF DOD numbers. Splendid!
[URL]http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/forum/showthread.php?4028-Stupid-Shit-in-Kyiv&p=2741991&highlight=richard[/URL]+black#post2741991.
Let's do a video recap.
[URL]https://www.rt.com/russia/578306-videos-destroyed-hardware-ukraine-counteroffensive/[/URL]
Me Too Kiev style:
Hooker: $50 everything included.
Zed: I charge the same rate.
Don't you rush it, Zed! There is a line of 29 dicks per each NATO country member to get you in!
[QUOTE=Questner;2828555]Don't you rush it, Zed! There is a line of 29 dicks per each NATO country member to get you in![/QUOTE]Hey man, you're spamming tf out of this board, can you please stop? Enough is enough.
These aren't reports you're serial posting. None of this is specific to what's going on in Kiev. Maybe your posts belong in one of the russia sub-forums (.
[QUOTE=Questner;2828555]Extreme Copium[/QUOTE]More and more reports are coming in of Z losses. In fact the more losses accrued from Muscovy the more the troll factory post weird shit.
Quote: Even by the standards of the Neocons who engineered this war, it is not going well. The "spring counteroffensive" is a pathetic failure. I'm waiting to see how the administration will sugarcoat this calamity to shore up dwindling support for this disastrous misadventure, one in a long series of forever wars.
[URL]https://robertfkennedyjr.substack.com/p/bidens-foreign-policy-war[/URL]
Now, when the lying sob is out of Parliament, it's worth reminding that one of the negotiators in the Ukrainian delegation was shot by the SS after the first round in March 2022.
Quote: With each passing day, it's becoming clear that the Ukrainian counteroffensive is failing to achieve any of its originally stated objectives.
[URL]https://twitter.com/DavidSacks/status/1670923154443882496?s=20[/URL]
A reminder for the clueless:
https://odysee.com/@RTDocumentary:4/Operation_Ukraine_Bandera's_Dark_Shadow:2
[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia[/URL]
[QUOTE=Questner;2828848]A reminder for the clueless[/QUOTE]The Z-tard trying to tell people that they are clueless.
Someone is coming for you, and when they find you there will be no mercy.
On June 22nd a reminder of why the present dead end ideology promoted by the gang of bone breakers and grifters occupying Kiev will be eradicated:
[URL]https://youtu.be/7ibizxvxgaY[/URL]
[QUOTE=VinDici;2828952]The Z-tard trying to tell people that they are clueless.
Someone is coming for you, and when they find you there will be no mercy.[/QUOTE]Poor Pu stutters and giggles when he hears the name Zaluzhny.
"be-be-but where is he? I-I-I know. ".
[URL]https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-putin-valery-zaluzhny-stammer-video-1807529[/URL]
[QUOTE=Questner;2829131]On June 22nd a reminder of why every Muscovite is sucking his own dick and coping like fuck[/QUOTE]Reminder on 22nd June that RuZZians are still kidnapping Ukrainian children, raping their women and as places are liberated people are finding mass graves and evidence of war crimes. RuZZian PropagandaBot Go Fuck Yourself.
While this tragedy goes on, don't you still think you're going to get away?
[URL]https://t.me/RVvoenkor/47837[/URL]
Kilgore: AN / TWQ-1, son. Nothing else in the world smells like that. I love the smell of The Avenger in the morning. You know, one time we had a hill bombed, for 12 hours. When it was all over, I walked up. We didn't find one of 'them, not one stinkin' dink body. The smell, you know that gasoline smell? The whole hill. Smelled like. Victory. Someday this war's going to end.
[URL]https://t.me/RVvoenkor/47815[/URL]
While The Creepy has already loaded the future generation with an extra grand of debt to pay for his gas adventure in Ukraine, the local gangsters and collaborators are pissing it all.
'Degradation. The Triptych' :
[QUOTE=Questner;2829498]Orc lies[/QUOTE]LOL no meme needed.
Just LOLOLOLOLOL, got my popcorn out and laughing so fucking hard at your shithole country falling into civil war.
LOLOLOLOLOL.
This too shall pass.
[QUOTE=Questner;2829782]This too shall pass.[/QUOTE]I heard that Ukraine has actually run out of popcorn and they are shipping in more urgently.
I have no idea how much it cost them to make Prigozhin turn back, but he had a real chance. That's beside the point, though.
While Putin was saved by the bell today (or more probably lots and lots of money that the ordinary Russians and their descendants will be repaying ad infinitum), just think what the Ukrainians have witnessed.
A small military unit with very limited hardware has managed to cross from the borders of Russia to the "borders" of Moscow in 24 hours without meeting any resistance.
With dozens or hundreds of fighters joining them voluntarily as they were marching on Moscow -- the city universally hated by everyone who doesn't live there.
24 hours, for fuck's sake!
And aside from the AFU, this astonishing March was witnessed by dozens of repressed, Moscow-hating ethnic minorities.
Oh my!
No upcoming March 2024 Presidential Elections in Ukraine after total mobilization in 3 regions. Who could have thought, eh?
Maybe advance them to 15th and call the Praetorians?
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2829989]I have no idea how much it cost them to make Prigozhin turn back, but he had a real chance. That's beside the point, though.
While Putin was saved by the bell today (or more probably lots and lots of money that the ordinary Russians and their descendants will be repaying ad infinitum), just think what the Ukrainians have witnessed.
A small military unit with very limited hardware has managed to cross from the borders of Russia to the "borders" of Moscow in 24 hours without meeting any resistance.
With dozens or hundreds of fighters joining them voluntarily as they were marching on Moscow -- the city universally hated by everyone who doesn't live there.
24 hours, for fuck's sake!
And aside from the AFU, this astonishing March was witnessed by dozens of repressed, Moscow-hating ethnic minorities.
Oh my![/QUOTE]Will you ever stop watching fake news! Do you maybe think this was a huge set-up?
[QUOTE=Questner;2830016]No upcoming March 2024 Presidential Elections in Ukraine after total mobilization in 3 regions. Who could have thought, eh?
Maybe advance them to 15th and call the Praetorians?[/QUOTE]If you hate ukraine so much, just post your political opinions elsewhere. But you coming over to a forum to shit on the country it is about is garbage-ass behavior. You can voice your arguments in the appropriate sub-forum, but incessant ad-hominem is not an argument. Go play in the russia forum, its been too quiet over there and I'm sure they would appreciate your input more. Man, I've totally lost any respect I might have had for you.
[QUOTE=Questner;2830016]Orc noises[/QUOTE]Who is the bunker boi fuckhead? Can you remind me? And given you live in a kleptocratic dictatorship, why the fuck are you concerned about elections fuckface?
Look at comrade fuckwit, pretty accurate picture of him.
No astonishment in viewing Western MM reaction through a hostile narrow tunnel vision from talking points to conclusions. Wake up, dumb heads, you don't have a clue!
Anyway, expect some changes starting this Monday. As we like to say, 'same working girls but beds in new order'.
Something went wrong here, mates.
[URL]https://t.me/RVvoenkor/48145[/URL]
Meanwhile Zed has consoled himself by signing a decree forbidding him to shoot himself. It would have been a luxury. The people of Rome are in need to be entertained.
[QUOTE=Questner;2830296]Meanwhile Zed has consoled himself by signing a decree forbidding him to shoot himself. It would have been a luxury. The people of Rome are in need to be entertained.[/QUOTE]How much do you earn per month for posting here?
1. The failed state with over 6 K+ nuclear warheads allowed a group of about 4,000 armed men AKA the Wagner Group to move from the borders of Ukraine to Moscow Oblast in less than 24 hours after having captured 2 major Russian cities. Putin and his henchmen fled Moscow.
2. To placate the Wagner chief Prigozhin, Putin sent general Dyumin (currently the governor of Tula oblast and Prigozhin ally) to talk some sense into him. All lies about (Belarussian dictator) Lukashenko's participation in the negotiations is bullshit. The results:
- Kremlin agreed to remove the Defense Minister Shoigu and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gerasimov.
- Kremlin agreed to appoint Dyumin the new Minister of Defense and Surovikin (another Prigozhin ally) as the new Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
- Prigozhin agreed to lift the siege and return to Wagner's field camps.
3. Dyumin's appointment means Prigozhin gets to control the $143 billion DoD budget. That's not even counting the newly classified parts of the state budget allotted to the war chest.
4. Wagner's military commander Utkin who had an order to take Moscow is not happy and openly calls his boss a prison * (which is how Prigozhin survived during his incarceration). Utkin is currently busy creating his own PMC.
5. Putin is allowed to live and return to Kremlin -- for now.
1. Bogged down in Ukraine.
2. Expansion of NATO.
3. Continued economic contraction with ruble the value of rubble.
4. Armed mutiny marches on Muscovy facing virtually no resistance.
5. Having to rely upon the illegitimate vassal Lukashenko to save the day.
6. And last but not least, it's not over yet, and it's not looking good!
What an incredible [B]cluster fuck[/B] Putinism has wrought upon mother Russia! Yes indeed "this too shall pass". Just like the stinky turd that it is!
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2830307]How much do you earn per month for posting here?[/QUOTE]He gets to suck off all Muscovite conscripts before they are deployed to Ukraine. No one gets to the front before Qbot drains their balls.
How come, within a day a slew of recycled specialists on Russia has evaporated from TV screens, all former generals, former anchors, former chiefs of stations, what a shame indeed!
[QUOTE=Questner;2830592]How come, within a day a slew of recycled specialists on Russia has evaporated from TV screens, all former generals, former anchors, former chiefs of stations, what a shame indeed![/QUOTE]The shithead returns and just as retarded as usual.
One president -- against all pleas from foreign emissaries and his own advisors -- refuses to flee and stays in his capital to face and eventually crush the full-blown onslaught of a 200,000-strong army that was reputed to be the second strongest military in the world.
And then we have another (so-called) president who flees THE VERY MOMENT 8,000 thugs armed with nothing more than a couple of tanks and a few infantry vehicles start moving toward his capital.
I repeat my question I once asked here: have there ever in history been aggressors as cowardly and pathetic as the current tsar of Russia?
Anyone?
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2830946]One president -- against all pleas from foreign emissaries and his own advisors -- refuses to flee and stays in his capital to face and eventually crush the full-blown onslaught of a 200,000-strong army that was reputed to be the second strongest military in the world.
And then we have another (so-called) president who flees THE VERY MOMENT 8,000 thugs armed with nothing more than a couple of tanks and a few infantry vehicles start moving toward his capital.
I repeat my question I once asked here: have there ever in history been aggressors as cowardly and pathetic as the current tsar of Russia?
Anyone?[/QUOTE]Xman instead of joining the Ukraine military, I think there is a better job for you. You really should take your crazy thoughts and apply for a job at CNN or one of the other wacko networks you get your news from.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2830310]1. The failed state with over 6 K+ nuclear warheads allowed a group of about 4,000 armed men AKA the Wagner Group to move from the borders of Ukraine to Moscow Oblast in less than 24 hours after having captured 2 major Russian cities. Putin and his henchmen fled Moscow.
2. To placate the Wagner chief Prigozhin, Putin sent general Dyumin (currently the governor of Tula oblast and Prigozhin ally) to talk some sense into him. All lies about (Belarussian dictator) Lukashenko's participation in the negotiations is bullshit. The results:
- Kremlin agreed to remove the Defense Minister Shoigu and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gerasimov.
- Kremlin agreed to appoint Dyumin the new Minister of Defense and Surovikin (another Prigozhin ally) as the new Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
- Prigozhin agreed to lift the siege and return to Wagner's field camps.
3. Dyumin's appointment means Prigozhin gets to control the $143 billion DoD budget. That's not even counting the newly classified parts of the state budget allotted to the war chest.
4. Wagner's military commander Utkin who had an order to take Moscow is not happy and openly calls his boss a prison * (which is how Prigozhin survived during his incarceration). Utkin is currently busy creating his own PMC.
5. Putin is allowed to live and return to Kremlin -- for now.[/QUOTE]Hmm, I may have been premature labeling you as a genius in the American Politics thread. Time will tell. But you definitely get an A+ for creative writing. While I wouldn't trust you as head of the NSA, you'd make a darn good Hollywood screenwriter.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2831200]Hmm, I may have been premature labeling you as a genius in the American Politics thread. Time will tell. But you definitely get an A+ for creative writing. While I wouldn't trust you as head of the NSA, you'd make a darn good Hollywood screenwriter.[/QUOTE]I'm neither a genius nor a creative writer. I do, however, have basic research and analytical skills that help me get some clarity.
1. The 21st century isn't kind to empires.
2. And the Russian Empire is the last empire on planet Earth.
3. And it's run by an ignorant coward.
4. And it's rotten to its core.
When you do realize these simple, unimpeachable facts and have some reasonably decent knowledge of the bloody and bloodthirsty Russia's history, you don't need to be a genius to know what's coming next. The Russian Empire will go down hard and it will take hundreds of thousands if not millions of lives with it.
There is no way around it. Eltsyn's controlled dissolution of the Soviet Union will not repeat itself. The upcoming catastrophe will be a bloody, bloody mess. The civil war in Yugoslavia will look like a walk in the park compared to this.
I totally understand why Biden and the West are terrified by this prospect, and why they consistently and stubbornly decline Kyiv's request for F16 and more advanced artillery. Not that they aren't trying to help Ukraine -- it's just that they don't want Putin to lose his grip on power no matter what.
Because what can go wrong with 6 K+ nukes during the most horrific civil war in the history of mankind, right?
The problem is, this is futile. You can't stop history or help a madman. Instead of trying to control the Ukrainians and keep Putin in Kremlin, Biden and the Nato need to be working with other actors inside Russia who're likely to participate in future festivities.
NB. I can be wrong, of course. LOL, I hope I am.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2831252]I totally understand why Biden and the West are terrified by this prospect, and why they consistently and stubbornly decline Kyiv's request for F16 and more advanced artillery. Not that they aren't trying to help Ukraine -- it's just that they don't want Putin to lose his grip on power no matter what.[/QUOTE]You simply don't know what you are talking about and aren't following the news at all. This while you continue to exude your doom and gloom cowardice. Thanks to very bad decisions by Russia the world is in a tough spot but cowering to Putin, his nuclear saber rattling, and whoever may follow him is the exact wrong way to go. Had we supported Ukraine back in 2014 there's a good chance we wouldn't be where we are today. Obama was a wuss in that regard. Biden has been better but still well short of the mark. Ukraine needs to be given what they need to push Russia out of their territory. As to your nuclear panics, I couldn't care less about your fear while wimps like you play right into Putin's hand. We need to remain strong while locked and loaded. If Russia plays that hand the consequences must be catastrophic.
[URL]https://www.economist.com/europe/2023/06/01/ukraine-gets-its-f-16s[/URL]
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2831689]You simply don't know what you are talking about and aren't following the news at all. This while you continue to exude your doom and gloom cowardice. Thanks to very bad decisions by Russia the world is in a tough spot but cowering to Putin, his nuclear saber rattling, and whoever may follow him is the exact wrong way to go. Had we supported Ukraine back in 2014 there's a good chance we wouldn't be where we are today. Obama was a wuss in that regard. Biden has been better but still well short of the mark. Ukraine needs to be given what they need to push Russia out of their territory. As to your nuclear panics, I couldn't care less about your fear while wimps like you play right into Putin's hand. We need to remain strong while locked and loaded. If Russia plays that hand the consequences must be catastrophic.
[URL]https://www.economist.com/europe/2023/06/01/ukraine-gets-its-f-16s[/URL][/QUOTE]Great advice. You guys are truly delusional. Ukraine doesn't need any more weapons, they need to find a solution to end this, but you wackos want this war, now you are getting Ukraine destroyed in the process. Great job!
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2831689]You simply don't know what you are talking about and aren't following the news at all. This while you continue to exude your doom and gloom cowardice. Thanks to very bad decisions by Russia the world is in a tough spot but cowering to Putin, his nuclear saber rattling, and whoever may follow him is the exact wrong way to go. Had we supported Ukraine back in 2014 there's a good chance we wouldn't be where we are today. Obama was a wuss in that regard. Biden has been better but still well short of the mark. Ukraine needs to be given what they need to push Russia out of their territory. As to your nuclear panics, I couldn't care less about your fear while wimps like you play right into Putin's hand. We need to remain strong while locked and loaded. If Russia plays that hand the consequences must be catastrophic.
[URL]https://www.economist.com/europe/2023/06/01/ukraine-gets-its-f-16s[/URL][/QUOTE]Dear Paulie,
What Xpartan wrote below sounded pretty sensible to me, except, being an optimist, I don't think Russia will go through a "bloody, bloody mess." Or at least nothing as severe as the Bolshevik Revolution and the civil war that followed. It would be great if we could somehow return to the relationship we had with Russia under Yeltsin, although that won't happen with Putin in power.
Ironically, the Economist, which you linked to, published an article recently that pretty much repeated what Xpartan said. He appears to be on your side by the way, at least in his other posts, in wanting to arm Ukraine to the teeth and fight the war to the last Ukrainian. If you want to pin this on cowardly, stingy gloom and doomers, you should look to people like me instead. IMHO, Biden and the USA should be pushing the sides to end this war, in a way that would insure the security of those on Ukrainian soil who don't support Russia.
Peace and Love,
Tiny
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2831252]There is no way around it. Eltsyn's (sic) controlled dissolution of the Soviet Union will not repeat itself. The upcoming catastrophe will be a bloody, bloody mess. The civil war in Yugoslavia will look like a walk in the park compared to this.
I totally understand why Biden and the West are terrified by this prospect, and why they consistently and stubbornly decline Kyiv's request for F16 and more advanced artillery. Not that they aren't trying to help Ukraine -- it's just that they don't want Putin to lose his grip on power no matter what.
Because what can go wrong with 6 K+ nukes during the most horrific civil war in the history of mankind, right?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2831762]Great advice. You guys are truly delusional. Ukraine doesn't need any more weapons, they need to find a solution to end this, but you wackos want this war, now you are getting Ukraine destroyed in the process. Great job![/QUOTE]They're not wackos DramaFree. They probably are Lockheed and Raytheon shareholders though.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2832078]They're not wackos DramaFree. They probably are Lockheed and Raytheon shareholders though.[/QUOTE]You might be on to something, but yes they are both crazy as Hell.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2831762]Great advice. You guys are truly delusional. Ukraine doesn't need any more weapons, they need to find a solution to end this, but you wackos want this war, now you are getting Ukraine destroyed in the process. Great job![/QUOTE]There is a solution fuckwit, RuZZians leave the territory of Ukraine and respect the 1991 borders and treaties they signed. Ask them to stop invading and attacking, not Ukraine to stop defending.
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2831689]You simply don't know what you are talking about and aren't following the news at all. This while you continue to exude your doom and gloom cowardice. Thanks to very bad decisions by Russia the world is in a tough spot but cowering to Putin, his nuclear saber rattling, and whoever may follow him is the exact wrong way to go.
[/QUOTE]By now you should've had a perfect clarity about my views on this war -- in addition to our PM exchanges I've been posting about it for more than a year. But no, somehow, I'm advocating "cowering to Putin"! How about reading my posts (it's fucking short enough!) in their ENTIRETY before lounging your deranged attacks?
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2831689]Had we supported Ukraine back in 2014 there's a good chance we wouldn't be where we are today. Obama was a wuss in that regard. Biden has been better but still well short of the mark. Ukraine needs to be given what they need to push Russia out of their territory. [/QUOTE]When in the holy name of fuck did I say otherwise?
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2831689]As to your nuclear panics, I couldn't care less about your fear while wimps like you play right into Putin's hand. We need to remain strong while locked and loaded. If Russia plays that hand the consequences must be catastrophic.
[URL]https://www.economist.com/europe/2023/06/01/ukraine-gets-its-f-16s[/URL][/QUOTE]Well, there is only one problem, my valiant knight. The only reason why Putin is allowed to live and this war is still raging. Call it "nuclear panics" but this is exactly the state our officials are in.
"We need to remain strong" is a wishful fucking thinking when the White House is busy of keeping Putin in charge of his nukes.
Because god forbid they fall in the wrong hands.
OK, maybe all the above is TL; DR for you, so let me try and make it even easier.
1. As far as I'm concerned, Russia's nukes are already in the wrong hands. We need to work on removing Putin, rather than on keeping him in charge.
2. That said, Putin is a complete and utter coward; he's very unlikely to unleash nuclear weapons, whatever his rhetoric is.
3. We must stop dragging our feet and give the Ukrainians everything they need including F16, long-range HIMARS and ATACMS (and we should've been doing it for a year now).
4. But I'm not optimistic.
Better?
[QUOTE=VinDici;2832102]There is a solution fuckwit, RuZZians leave the territory of Ukraine and respect the 1991 borders and treaties they signed. Ask them to stop invading and attacking, not Ukraine to stop defending.[/QUOTE]Good luck with this. You guys are so out of touch with reality.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2832283]Good luck with this. You guys are so out of touch with reality.[/QUOTE]Says the RuZZbot without any irony.
Xpartan, this isn't the most entertaining thing I've read in the New Yorker, but you'd probably find it a worthwhile read anyway based on some of your posts.
[URL]https://www.newyorker.com/news/the-weekend-essay/could-putin-lose-power[/URL]
It provides the views of some experts on Russia and regime change about what may be in store for Putin. My takeaway is that there's a 50% or greater chance that we're stuck dealing with Putin until he voluntarily "retires" or, more likely, dies of natural causes. So the realpolitik favored by DramaFree and me makes more sense than blind, idealistic support for Ukraine. I'm not saying the latter is necessarily what you favor BTW.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2832455]Xpartan, this isn't the most entertaining thing I've read in the New Yorker, but you'd probably find it a worthwhile read anyway based on some of your posts.
[URL]https://www.newyorker.com/news/the-weekend-essay/could-putin-lose-power[/URL]
It provides the views of some experts on Russia and regime change about what may be in store for Putin. My takeaway is that there's a 50% or greater chance that we're stuck dealing with Putin until he voluntarily "retires" or, more likely, dies of natural causes. So the realpolitik favored by DramaFree and me makes more sense than blind, idealistic support for Ukraine. I'm not saying the latter is necessarily what you favor BTW.[/QUOTE]Why bring Drama into this? He's a paid Russian bot, you aren't. You're just wrong, LOL.
Look, I understand why you and the New Yorker are skeptical (by the way, the author of this piece is a brother of Masha Gessen who wrote a solid book about Putin). But Russia is not a normal country. It's a country of sudden changes, where things seem the most monolith right before the implosion. Just re-read the passages about the Bolshevik revolution and the "smuta".
I give them a year.
And that's generous.
Fuck realpolitic!
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2832455]It provides the views of some experts on Russia and regime change about what may be in store for Putin. My takeaway is that there's a 50% or greater chance that we're stuck dealing with Putin until he voluntarily "retires" or, more likely, dies of natural causes. So the realpolitik favored by DramaFree and me makes more sense than blind, idealistic support for Ukraine. I'm not saying the latter is necessarily what you favor BTW.[/QUOTE]Firstly, don't lump yourself in the same bucket as that Muscovite shill Dramafree, read his post history to see what a complete disingenuous fuckwit he is.
Russia will lose the war, and may even lose Crimea (this is still uncertain). After they lose, Putin's hold will be untenable and I would predict the collapse of the Federation, if Crimea is lost, then the collapse is pretty much certain. All the vassal states will have lost both their economic future and their men to a pointless war.
My last visit to Ukraine just over a year ago, oh how I miss my Ukraine. A brief report from my last visit, visited three massage salons Dream (2 occasions), Relax (2 occasions) and Topless. One salon was fair, one salon was good, one salon was absolutely incredible. Spent 10 hours with one girl from Gia, below average experience, my two favorite girls from Gia, Liza who's still on the site and Nina who left maybe a year ago. Called an apartment from the Minuet site, a 19 yr old from Dnipro came for 4 hours, real sweet girl.
Change of subject, the first time I visited Russia (4 trips in total) was May of '92, wonderful time. From what I understand currently, 35 percent of mortgages, 20 percent car loans and 15 percent personal loans are in default in Russia. I believe Russia will collapse (I hope soon), and when it does real estate in Russia may be a good investment; of course, there needs to be some stability in a new government. The reason I mentioned this is because I think the next time I travel to Russia, it will be similar to my '92 visit.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2832635]Firstly, don't lump yourself in the same bucket as that Muscovite shill Dramafree, read his post history to see what a complete disingenuous fuckwit he is.
Russia will lose the war, and may even lose Crimea (this is still uncertain). After they lose, Putin's hold will be untenable and I would predict the collapse of the Federation, if Crimea is lost, then the collapse is pretty much certain. All the vassal states will have lost both their economic future and their men to a pointless war.[/QUOTE]You guys can are in total denial, Ukraine is getting its ass kicked. In you liberal world, this is a win. Ukraine will probably lose Odessa in the next couple of months.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2832555]Look, I understand why you and the New Yorker are skeptical (by the way, the author of this piece is a brother of Masha Gessen who wrote a solid book about Putin). But Russia is not a normal country. It's a country of sudden changes, where things seem the most monolith right before the implosion. Just re-read the passages about the Bolshevik revolution and the "smuta".
I give them a year.
And that's generous.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=VinDici;2832635]Russia will lose the war, and may even lose Crimea (this is still uncertain). After they lose, Putin's hold will be untenable and I would predict the collapse of the Federation, if Crimea is lost, then the collapse is pretty much certain. All the vassal states will have lost both their economic future and their men to a pointless war.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2832774]You guys can are in total denial, Ukraine is getting its ass kicked. In you liberal world, this is a win. Ukraine will probably lose Odessa in the next couple of months.[/QUOTE]My guess is that this will drag on for years, like Afghanistan (versus the USSR or USA, take your pick) or Vietnam. That's unless the USA and Europe are willing to step up to the plate and put an end to this, by providing Putin a face saving way to exit this mess. That might involve some combination of providing a security guarantee to Ukraine, Ukraine formally ceding Crimea and part of the Donbass to Russia, a guarantee of Ukrainian neutrality, and substantial foreign aid to Ukraine to rebuild.
As DramaFree said, many Ukrainians have been and will be killed and displaced. The only winners will be the western defense contractors and the Iranians and others who supply weapons to Russia.
Having read the New Yorker article, I am now an expert and believe there's a 50/50 chance Putin or his surrogate will rule Russia until Putin dies. Which could be a long time. And what happens after he dies? Well, maybe the same thing that happened in Cuba and Venezuela. Nothing, no change in the behavior of the regime. Patrushev (former head of FSB) and Medvedev (see below) are perhaps his likeliest successors and they're just as or more extreme than Putin.
Russia has massive resources and manpower compared to Ukraine. Right now it's only spending 4. 4% of its GDP on defense. That's less than we did from World War II to 1990. A lot less than we were spending in the 1950's and 1960's. And Putin knows if he just ups and leaves Ukraine, it will weaken his position in Russia. Remember there was an unsuccessful revolution in 1905 when Russia was defeated by Japan. Arguably the Russian withdrawal from Afghanistan was tied to the end of the USSR. And the premature withdrawal of Russia from World War I coincided with the abdication of the Tsar and the Bolshevik Revolution. There's little chance that Putin's going to withdraw from Ukraine unless he's somehow allowed to save face.
And yes, there is the potential for World War III. Russia's former prime minister and president, Dmitry Medvedev, one of Putin's closest cronies, said Russia is ready to use nuclear weapons, more than once. Putin's kind of said the same thing. And they're not just referring to tactical weapons, but also ICBM's.
Presumably though Putin has learned his lesson. This will be repetitious for Xpartan, but I believe Putin is rational, nationalistic and paranoid. I don't think he's bat shit crazy like Hitler, and I don't think he's going to do something like try to take over the Baltic states. He got a lot more than he bargained for when he invaded Ukraine, and won't want to repeat the same mistake.
[url]https://www.newsweek.com/russia-spending-over-85-billion-military-this-year-report-1810181[/url]
[QUOTE=VinDici;2832102]There is a solution fuckwit, RuZZians leave the territory of Ukraine and respect the 1991 borders and treaties they signed. Ask them to stop invading and attacking, not Ukraine to stop defending.[/QUOTE]I'd argue that based on the assurances of Baker, Bush, Kohl, Gates and others, the Russians never dreamed NATO would have expanded eastward as far as it did. The Russians felt betrayed. Xpartan disagrees. Please see the Xpartan / Tiny dialogs for more detail.
[URL]http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/forum/showthread.php?2467-American-Politics&p=2829022&viewfull=1#post2829022[/URL].
[URL]http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/forum/showthread.php?2467-American-Politics&p=2829138&viewfull=1#post2829138[/URL].
[URL]http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/forum/showthread.php?2467-American-Politics&p=2831160&viewfull=1#post2831160[/URL].
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2832830]Russia has massive resources and manpower compared to Ukraine. Right now it's only spending 4. 5% of its GDP on defense. [/QUOTE]Isolated numbers paint a distorted picture. First, your 4. 5 % has zero credibility because Russians know how to cook the books. When, occasionally, they're not lying, you might see numbers that make some sense.
[QUOTE]The government's priorities in 2023 from the draft budget read with crystal clarity. "The head of state has instructed us to take measures to meet the needs of our Armed Forces and military formations," Prime Minister Mikhail Mishustin said. Spending on the military and on security services will grow from 24 percent of budget spending projected for 2022 to almost 33 percent in 2023 (9.5 trillion rubles). Spending on the economy will decrease compared to that in 2022, and the small increase in social spending will be eaten up by inflation.
Financing of the military and security services has never before reached such a large share of the federal budget. Spending on homeland security has almost doubled since 2021. Payments to mobilized forces alone may require about 2 trillion rubles. They are made through the Pension Fund, the costs of which will therefore increase by 19 percent. The share of "secret" budget spending (to make it more difficult to estimate the cost of the war) has increased from 16 percent to 22.4 percent. The financing of patriotic programs in schools has increased sixfold. The elections of 2024 will surely require direct unscheduled payments to the population, which will increase the deficit. [/QUOTE][URL]https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/putins-war-costs-shifting-burden-population[/URL]
But mostly they lie.
[QUOTE] Russia is keeping an unprecedented one-third of its budget spending out of the public eye, a stark measure of how a year of war against Ukraine has redrawn government finances and economic priorities.
Classified or unspecified expenditure through March 24 has surged to 2.4 trillion rubles ($31 billion), Finance Ministry data show, more than double the level in the same period a year ago, according to Bloomberg Economicss estimates. Plans set out for 2023 envisaged the budgets secret share at almost a quarter, Bloomberg calculations show. [/QUOTE][URL]https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-03-28/war-and-secretive-spending-is-eating-away-at-russia-s-budget[/URL]
Look at the diagram in the article while you're at it. 3 trillion rubles are classified, while only 0. 5 and 0. 3 are spent on defense and security respectively. Yeah, right!
To conclude, your official 4. 5 % GDP means exactly dick, as they say in Men in Black, but even that puny number is over 10 times more than they spent in Afghanistan (0. 4 % and please keep in mind that back then they weren't as "creative" with numbers as they are today.
Here are a few more things that make their 4. 5 % miracle number even less impressive.
1. Wholesale thievery. You would presume that outright theft and corruption in the Army are dealt with now that there is a war raging. Well, you'd presume wrong, LOL.
2. 340,000 of armed people along with heavy military equipment are stationed far away from the front lines (National Guards). Guess who get better pay and way better benefits than the cannon fodder they throw at the enemy. Putin will need them to crush mass dissent on the Day X, which he know is coming.
3. $300 billion frozen Russia's Central Bank assets.
4. Sanctions! Yes they sell energy bars to China and India (at a huge discount), but spending rupees and yuan is not exactly straightforward.
5. From January to April 2023 Russia already spent it yearly budget (Russia stopped publishing data on budget spending in June).
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2832830]And yes, there is the potential for World War III. Russia's former prime minister and president, Dmitry Medvedev, one of Putin's closest cronies, said Russia is ready to use nuclear weapons, more than once. Putin's kind of said the same thing. And they're not just referring to tactical weapons, but also ICBM's.
[/QUOTE]Yes, there is the potential, but not because of that useless alky. Medvedev might've been a puppet president at one point, but today, he's reduced to a role of an official Kremlin jester. The recent death of Vladimir Zhirinovsky left too much void in the arena of political provocations, so Medvedev was only too eager to apply.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2832830]I believe Putin is rational, nationalistic and paranoid. I don't think he's bat shit crazy like Hitler.
[/QUOTE]Believe what you want, but Hitler wasn't always bat shit crazy. And Putin's days of rational thinking are well behind him. I mean when a dude gets his anus licked incessantly for 20 years -- of course his shit will get to his brain! Come on, that's pure science.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2832833]I'd argue that based on the assurances of Baker, Bush, Kohl, Gates and others, the Russians never dreamed NATO would have expanded eastward as far as it did. The Russians felt betrayed. Xpartan disagrees. Please see the Xpartan / Tiny dialogs for more detail.
[URL]http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/forum/showthread.php?2467-American-Politics&p=2829022&viewfull=1#post2829022[/URL].
[URL]http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/forum/showthread.php?2467-American-Politics&p=2829138&viewfull=1#post2829138[/URL].
[URL]http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/forum/showthread.php?2467-American-Politics&p=2831160&viewfull=1#post2831160[/URL].[/QUOTE]First of all, even if this "Nato Promise" fairytale weren't a Russian propaganda piece, it wouldn't justify Putin's war. So I'm not sure why you had to bring it to this thread.
Secondly, beating a dead horse over and over is cruel. Let the poor animal rest in peace already.
But seriously, what does any lawyer tell you about "verbal contracts"? If it's not in writing, it doesn't exist.
Do you suggest that state leaders are unaware of what's known to any law school graduate?
There is no evidence that Russians were ever OFFICIALLY promised that Nato wouldn't expand to the East. If there had been, you would've linked it already.
Was the question mentioned? Sure. Many times. By serious people in suites and ties.
It doesn't matter.
The Russians aren't idiots. They're cold-blooded and calculated liars and war mongers. You're trying to tell me that Putin believed in some mythical "promises" and "assurances" from Nato [B]while he himself was toying with an idea of joining the Alliance[/B]?
Putin Says 'Why Not?' to Russia Joining NATO.
[URL]https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2000/03/06/putin-says-why-not-to-russia-joining-nato/c1973032-c10f-4bff-9174-8cae673790cd[/URL]
Gee, man, if you really, truly believe all this nonsense, do I have the only authentic bridge in London to sell for your enjoyment!
Gorbachev said he had never received or asked for that guarantee.
[QUOTE] RBTH: One of the key issues that has arisen in connection with the events in Ukraine is NATO expansion into the East. Do you get the feeling that your Western partners lied to you when they were developing their future plans in Eastern Europe? Why didnt you insist that the promises made to you particularly U.S. Secretary of State James Bakers promise that NATO would not expand into the East be legally encoded? I will quote Baker: NATO will not move one inch further east.
M.G.: The topic of NATO expansion was not discussed at all, and it wasnt brought up in those years. I say this with full responsibility. Not a singe Eastern European country raised the issue, not even after the Warsaw Pact ceased to exist in 1991. Western leaders didnt bring it up, either. Another issue we brought up was discussed: making sure that NATOs military structures would not advance and that additional armed forces from the alliance would not be deployed on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Bakers statement, mentioned in your question, was made in that context. Kohl and German Vice Chancellor Hans-Dietrich Genscher talked about it.[/QUOTE][URL]https://www.rbth.com/international/2014/10/16/mikhail_gorbachev_i_am_against_all_walls_40673.html[/URL]
And yes, I know that Gorbachev sometimes said other things. Well, he and his foundation didn't live in vacuum. He lived under Vladimir Putin, so I'm not surprised he couldn't always deviate from the party line. However the interview I linked here is from 2014. Crimea's already annexed, and Donbass is aflame.
I think it was very brave of him to tell the truth when the truth was badly needed.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2832830]My guess is that this will drag on for years, like Afghanistan (versus the USSR or USA, take your pick) or Vietnam. That's unless the USA and Europe are willing to step up to the plate and put an end to this, by providing Putin a face saving way to exit this mess. That might involve some combination of providing a security guarantee to Ukraine, Ukraine formally ceding Crimea and part of the Donbass to Russia, a guarantee of Ukrainian neutrality, and substantial foreign aid to Ukraine to rebuild.
As DramaFree said, many Ukrainians have been and will be killed and displaced. The only winners will be the western defense contractors and the Iranians and others who supply weapons to Russia.
Having read the New Yorker article, I am now an expert and believe there's a 50/50 chance Putin or his surrogate will rule Russia until Putin dies. Which could be a long time. And what happens after he dies? Well, maybe the same thing that happened in Cuba and Venezuela. Nothing, no change in the behavior of the regime. Patrushev (former head of FSB) and Medvedev (see below) are perhaps his likeliest successors and they're just as or more extreme than Putin.
Russia has massive resources and manpower compared to Ukraine. Right now it's only spending 4. 4% of its GDP on defense. That's less than we did from World War II to 1990. A lot less than we were spending in the 1950's and 1960's. And Putin knows if he just ups and leaves Ukraine, it will weaken his position in Russia. Remember there was an unsuccessful revolution in 1905 when Russia was defeated by Japan. Arguably the Russian withdrawal from Afghanistan was tied to the end of the USSR. And the premature withdrawal of Russia from World War I coincided with the abdication of the Tsar and the Bolshevik Revolution. There's little chance that Putin's going to withdraw from Ukraine unless he's somehow allowed to save face.
And yes, there is the potential for World War III. Russia's former prime minister and president, Dmitry Medvedev, one of Putin's closest cronies, said Russia is ready to use nuclear weapons, more than once. Putin's kind of said the same thing. And they're not just referring to tactical weapons, but also ICBM's.
Presumably though Putin has learned his lesson. This will be repetitious for Xpartan, but I believe Putin is rational, nationalistic and paranoid. I don't think he's bat shit crazy like Hitler, and I don't think he's going to do something like try to take over the Baltic states. He got a lot more than he bargained for when he invaded Ukraine, and won't want to repeat the same mistake.
[url]https://www.newsweek.com/russia-spending-over-85-billion-military-this-year-report-1810181[/url][/QUOTE]I don't know how many of you here are infact on the ground and in Ukriane.
But I am.
I'm several times a Month close to where the Action is and see alot of things with my own eyes.
Someone here think Russia will win, that's so way of from the real truth as it can be.
You should see the russians POW, they look like shit, bad maintance, bad weapons etc.
The Ukrain army are every month getting more and more well equipped, yes it can be better, but the hard troops get what they need and if you prove yourself you will also get.
Yes there are looses on ukrain side, but in my opinion its still in favor of the Ukrain side we maybe talk 1 to 10 or more.
Russia Used in Jan-Feb 40% of the money the allocated for defence for all 2023, and that's 33.5% of the total national budget in those 2 month).
In 2022 the total use on defence was 17.5% of the National budget.
This cannot go one forever, you already see it in Russia where they can't spend what they need on hospitals, HIV medicin, Etc. Etc.
Its one big Snowball just waiting for social unrest.
To everyone who doubt all this, come and Visit ukrain and feel and speak with people and you will understand that they will not give up.
But Russia at one point will need give up or break in pieces.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2832774]You guys can are in total denial, Ukraine is getting its ass kicked. In you liberal world, this is a win. Ukraine will probably lose Odessa in the next couple of months.[/QUOTE]I'll remember this dumbass, and in September we will remind you about your retarded prediction, that is if you haven't been made into a cube of meat by then.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2832903]I'll remember this dumbass, and in September we will remind you about your retarded prediction, that is if you haven't been made into a cube of meat by then.[/QUOTE]A cube of meat LOLOLOL! [B]SPAM[/B] which precisely describes his posts LMAO!
[QUOTE=VinDici;2832903]I'll remember this dumbass, and in September we will remind you about your retarded prediction, that is if you haven't been made into a cube of meat by then.[/QUOTE]Yes, and I said I was wrong. Again at what cost, Ukraine is slowly being destroyed.
-woman / children are leaving the country.
-the men are being killed.
-no one is having babies.
-Europe and other parts of the world are in Recessions.
-NATO is mess and falling apart.
-Putin is as strong as ever, in certain parts of the world even stronger.
-Russia is much stronger then before.
-Ukraine infrastructure is being destroyed.
-China is stronger.
I can go on. Ukraine and there Allie's are getting destroyed and humiliated.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2832880]First of all, even if this "Nato Promise" fairytale weren't a Russian propaganda piece, it wouldn't justify Putin's war. So I'm not sure why you had to bring it to this thread.
Secondly, beating a dead horse over and over is cruel. Let the poor animal rest in peace already.
[/QUOTE]I may have misinterpreted VinDici's post, "RuZZians leave the territory of Ukraine and respect the 1991 borders and treaties they signed. " I thought he was referring to the negotiations and treaty between the west and Russia in 1990 and 1991 that resulted in the unification of Germany. And was part of the reason the Soviet republics disbanded their union and also allowed for the disbandment of the Warsaw Pact. Russia believed it was duped by the west IMHO. You ably presented the other side of the argument. The links were just for VinDici's edification. And yes, maybe he didn't need edifying, because he may have been thinking about something completely different.
[QUOTE=Hestendk;2832884]I don't know how many of you here are infact on the ground and in Ukriane.
But I am.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2832862]Isolated numbers paint a distorted picture. First, your 4. 5 % has zero credibility because Russians know how to cook the books. When, occasionally, they're not lying, you might see numbers that make some sense.[/QUOTE]Good posts gentlemen. Hestendk, thanks for your "on the ground perspective. " Very interesting, I hope you'll tell us more.
You've made a good case that Russia's military expenditures are actually higher than what they claim. From the Wilson and Bloomberg links though, it looks to me like they're still spending substantially less, both as a % of GDP and the total Russian federal expenditures, than we were in the 1960's. And perhaps around the same or not much more than we were as a % of GDP in the 1970's and 1980's. Furthermore, the numbers in Xpartan's links point towards an actual Russian federal budget deficit of less than 4% of GDP in 2023. Ours was 12% of GDP in 2021 and 5. 4% in 2022.
If you want to verify, please note that Russia's federal government expenditures were typically about 18% of GDP. And these charts show USA Defense expenditures as a % of GDP, and total USA Federal expenditures as a % of GDP.
[URL]https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/military-spending-defense-budget[/URL]
[URL]https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYONGDA188S[/URL]
Russia's Achilles heal may be that it's very dependent on revenues from taxation from oil and gas. I suspect they have a bigger underground economy than we do, so it will be more difficult to raise money from increasing the income tax.
As to sanctions, they didn't work very well for Cuba, Iran or North Korea. I don't think they'll work well on Russia either. As to the $300 billion in reserves, Russia's effectively confiscating western assets as well.
One caveat, if Hestendk's correct that Russia spent 40% of annual budgeted military expenditures in January and February, and Xpartan's right about spending the annual military budget by April, and if they continue spending at that rate, then that's going to be big burden on the country. And possibly DramaFree's right, the Russians may unfortunately make headway in months to come, and many more Ukrainian and Russian lives will be lost, because they're pumping more resources into the war. Where did you get that info? I'm not seeing it in Xpartan's links.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2832962]Yes, and I said I was wrong.[/QUOTE]What about RuZZia dumbfuck, start there before you begin with lies about Ukraine?
-woman / children are leaving the country in droves, running to Argentina to have babies with another nationality, because everyone is disgusted with Orc blood.
-the men are being killed and turned into cubes of meat.
-no one is having babies, because Muscovite cunts are stealing them and taking them back to Mordor to indoctrinate them.
-RuZZia and it's companies are in their worst economic recession and crisis.
-NATO is stronger than ever before with Finland joining and Sweden on the pathway.
-Putin is fucked.
-Russia is fucked.
-Ukraine infrastructure is being destroyed by RuZZians that cannot stop committing war crimes, because they are cowardly pieces of shit.
-China is stronger than Ruzzia which has become its vassal state. RuZZia is to China, what Belarus is to RuZZia, what an own goal.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2832962]Yes, and I said I was wrong. Again at what cost, Ukraine is slowly being destroyed.
-woman / children are leaving the country.
-the men are being killed.
-no one is having babies.
-Europe and other parts of the world are in Recessions.
-NATO is mess and falling apart.
-Putin is as strong as ever, in certain parts of the world even stronger.
-Russia is much stronger then before.
-Ukraine infrastructure is being destroyed.
-China is stronger.
I can go on. Ukraine and there Allie's are getting destroyed and humiliated.[/QUOTE]Lets Debunk most of your shit.
-woman / children are leaving the country.
12 Millions ukrain left in 2022, of those 12 more the 6 Millions are already returned.
Even Woman And Kids come back because most of the 12 Milliosn was infact Woman And Kids.
-the men are being killed.
Its a war this is right, but I still don't know anyone that's been killed OR injuried here, and I Know +100 people.
So the rate is not as big as you wish it is.
-no one is having babies.
Hmmm in 2023 there is expected to be born 2. 2% less Ukrain Children then the year before.
Yes Ukrainians need to make more babies to withhold the population long term, but everyone are aware of this and the government have programs that are encouring more and more to get 2-3 children.
-Europe and other parts of the world are in Recessions.
Europe is in a Technical Recession, that is not the same as an fullblown recession like Russia is in.
Europe have much more to stand with in a recsseion so this is not a problem at the moment.
-NATO is mess and falling apart.
Everyone in Nato are stronglty connected, Everyone use more on military spending and aim for the 2%.
Yes Hungary make some issues, but they not vital for Nato.
And then Turkey which are trying to get something Either F35 or something else from the USA.
-Putin is as strong as ever, in certain parts of the world even stronger.
Maybe in underdeveloped countries like in Africa he is this, but one thing is a Rating, another is real power.
To think Putin have more power now then before, that just insanity.
-Russia is much stronger then before.
Sorry what?
The national budget is in like 60% defict, the Army is poor, they can't even protect their own inland.
They shooting missiles and drones that in 95% of the cases are getting shot down.
-Ukraine infrastructure is being destroyed.
Yes some is getting destroyed, but I can tell you that the infrastructure in general are getting better and better everywhere.
Ukrain even drilling new gass wells every month to prepare to be 100% self suffiant and in longer term cut Russia away from Europe.
-China is stronger.
I think China is same strengt as before, their army is build to maintain the defence in asia, and to try and capture Taiwan, they are not ready for a long war with ex. USA that can maintain armyes half way around the world.
You really need to research on your things before typying nonsense like you just did, or maybe just Come to Ukrain and we can show you what's going on here and why they will win.
[QUOTE=Hestendk;2833153]Lets Debunk most of your shit.
-woman / children are leaving the country.
12 Millions ukrain left in 2022, of those 12 more the 6 Millions are already returned.
Even Woman And Kids come back because most of the 12 Milliosn was infact Woman And Kids.
-the men are being killed.
Its a war this is right, but I still don't know anyone that's been killed OR injuried here, and I Know +100 people.
So the rate is not as big as you wish it is.
-no one is having babies.
Hmmm in 2023 there is expected to be born 2. 2% less Ukrain Children then the year before.
Yes Ukrainians need to make more babies to withhold the population long term, but everyone are aware of this and the government have programs that are encouring more and more to get 2-3 children.
-Europe and other parts of the world are in Recessions.
Europe is in a Technical Recession, that is not the same as an fullblown recession like Russia is in.
Europe have much more to stand with in a recsseion so this is not a problem at the moment.
-NATO is mess and falling apart.
Everyone in Nato are stronglty connected, Everyone use more on military spending and aim for the 2%.
Yes Hungary make some issues, but they not vital for Nato.
And then Turkey which are trying to get something Either F35 or something else from the USA.
-Putin is as strong as ever, in certain parts of the world even stronger.
Maybe in underdeveloped countries like in Africa he is this, but one thing is a Rating, another is real power.
To think Putin have more power now then before, that just insanity.
-Russia is much stronger then before.
Sorry what?
The national budget is in like 60% defict, the Army is poor, they can't even protect their own inland.
They shooting missiles and drones that in 95% of the cases are getting shot down.
-Ukraine infrastructure is being destroyed.
Yes some is getting destroyed, but I can tell you that the infrastructure in general are getting better and better everywhere.
Ukrain even drilling new gass wells every month to prepare to be 100% self suffiant and in longer term cut Russia away from Europe.
-China is stronger.
I think China is same strengt as before, their army is build to maintain the defence in asia, and to try and capture Taiwan, they are not ready for a long war with ex. USA that can maintain armyes half way around the world.
You really need to research on your things before typying nonsense like you just did, or maybe just Come to Ukrain and we can show you what's going on here and why they will win.[/QUOTE]You actually have some common sense, unlike the other clowns. Good report. We can agree to differ. We will have all are answers by the end of the summer.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2833046]What about RuZZia dumbfuck, start there before you begin with lies about Ukraine?
-woman / children are leaving the country in droves, running to Argentina to have babies with another nationality, because everyone is disgusted with Orc blood.
-the men are being killed and turned into cubes of meat.
-no one is having babies, because Muscovite cunts are stealing them and taking them back to Mordor to indoctrinate them.
-RuZZia and it's companies are in their worst economic recession and crisis.
-NATO is stronger than ever before with Finland joining and Sweden on the pathway.
-Putin is fucked.
-Russia is fucked.
-Ukraine infrastructure is being destroyed by RuZZians that cannot stop committing war crimes, because they are cowardly pieces of shit.
-China is stronger than Ruzzia which has become its vassal state. RuZZia is to China, what Belarus is to RuZZia, what an own goal.[/QUOTE]This one of the dumbest / ridiculous reports ever. You make Xman and Pauline look conservative and sane. . Well done.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2833171] Good report. We can agree to differ. [/QUOTE]Yeah, it's good to get Hestendk's perspective. He could be a little more civil. He hasn't learned yet what I know from my Ministry, converting progressives to free market capitalism. You can attract more flies with honey than a shotgun. His posts have moderated some of my views.
He's got some good points about NATO becoming stronger and more unified and Russia weaker than before. He's wrong about the 60% deficit though. Russia's numbers like its budget deficit and current account surplus, if you believe them (and Hestendk and Xpartan don't), do not look that bad. Russia's experience in Ukraine may make China think twice about taking over Taiwan. His statement that he doesn't know anyone who died is interesting. USA government estimates are that 42,000 Ukrainian civilians and 20,000 of its armed forces have died. The BBC estimates 69,600+ Russians have died. Anyway, out of a population of 43.8 million, 62,000 deaths are 0. 14% of the population. That's only one out of every 7,000 people.
That said, a net loss of 6 million citizens to emigration out of a population of 43.8 million is huge. I'm reading estimates that the birth rate if nothing changes has gone down to 0. 53 per woman. You need a rate of 2 to avoid population loss. And while Russia may have not wiped out a lot of the infrastructure, it has the capacity to do so. It has the ability to snuff out the whole country and start World War III.
On the news today, they're reporting that State Department personnel are in backchannel communications with Russia, hopefully about putting an end to this. If so, bully for Biden and Blinken.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2833172]This one of the dumbest / ridiculous reports ever. You make Xman and Pauline look conservative and sane. . Well done.[/QUOTE]It's intentional dumbass.
Why expending mental energy against a Z propagandist idiot? There is no debate to be had with with the brain dead. You aren't deserving of actual intellectual effort.
The intention behind all your posts is a continuous stream of lies, parroting of kremlin narratives, whilst not once acknowledging the much worse and egregious behaviour of the Muscovites.
So go fuck yourself.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2833265]Yeah, it's good to get Hestendk's perspective. He could be a little more civil. He hasn't learned yet what I know from my Ministry, converting progressives to free market capitalism. You can attract more flies with honey than a shotgun. His posts have moderated some of my views.
He's got some good points about NATO becoming stronger and more unified and Russia weaker than before. He's wrong about the 60% deficit though. Russia's numbers like its budget deficit and current account surplus, if you believe them (and Hestendk and Xpartan don't), do not look that bad. Russia's experience in Ukraine may make China think twice about taking over Taiwan. His statement that he doesn't know anyone who died is interesting. USA government estimates are that 42,000 Ukrainian civilians and 20,000 of its armed forces have died. The BBC estimates 69,600+ Russians have died. Anyway, out of a population of 43.8 million, 62,000 deaths are 0. 14% of the population. That's only one out of every 7,000 people.
That said, a net loss of 6 million citizens to emigration out of a population of 43.8 million is huge. I'm reading estimates that the birth rate if nothing changes has gone down to 0. 53 per woman. You need a rate of 2 to avoid population loss. And while Russia may have not wiped out a lot of the infrastructure, it has the capacity to do so. It has the ability to snuff out the whole country and start World War III.
On the news today, they're reporting that State Department personnel are in backchannel communications with Russia, hopefully about putting an end to this. If so, bully for Biden and Blinken.[/QUOTE]Birthrate pro Woman is around 1,18 ATM. And its to low, it have to be around 2. If we are thinking the western way.
Ukrain have traditional have had a high unemployment rate, so if ukrain got it up to lets say 1. 8 I think that would be a good target rate, also remember more and more woman in ukrain take less free after a childbirth then before so their AR eincreasing the work capicity.
In Jan-April Russia burned 45 Billions USD mor then they made, they had a budget for 2023 in the Minus of 43 Billions.
Also they are printing money without the market knowing it is the roumor so the budget deficit is bigger then we can calculate.
I had the 60% from other sources that looked everything in.
The total Income Budget for Russia 2023 is 345 Billions, so lets divide that by 12 so every month they should get 28,75 billions in.
The first 4 months they then got 115 Billions in but used 160 Billions So okay that's an overspending of 40% in pure numbers.
Also remember that russia was expecting and calculating with and Gas / Oil price more then 50% higher then what they are getting now.
Thats just plain stupidity and planing was done without looking at the facts.
And yes it is interesting that I don't know anyone that died yet.
I know at least 20 people that are in the armed forces and 4 of them at least are in SOF teams.
I belive the russian dead numbers are much higher then 300.000, what I hear from the front is that they just meat and russia not care about their soldiers.
Russia again today been spotted 300 KM from ukrain sending more T55 in.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2833265]
On the news today, they're reporting that State Department personnel are in backchannel communications with Russia, hopefully about putting an end to this. If so, bully for Biden and Blinken.[/QUOTE]After the WWII, Ukrainian partisans kept fighting Stalin's army and security forces for 8 years (in some areas until 1958). They fought a hopeless war in a complete isolation against the vastly superior enemy for 10 years, and they didn't even have their own country, their own armed forces, as well as any military, financial and spiritual help from the rest of the world.
Expecting the Ukrainians to give up now when they have all this (and when Russia's led by a coward who's certainly NOT Stalin) is unrealistic, to put it mildly. Then again, one would need to know at least some bits of Russia's history to understand what the Ukrainians are capable of.
Russia, on the other hand, remembers those days only too well, spewing megatons of hateful propaganda against the Ukrainian nationalists and their leaders of the past. The leaders they murdered or attempted to murder back in the 50's including Russia's #1 enemy to this day -- Stepan Bandera.
Unlike you, I'm not trying to convert anyone, but here is a report (warning: a little technical) about the raise and fall of the insurgency in Ukraine in 1940-1950's. You may want to read at least the post-war part.
[URL]https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA562947.pdf[/URL]
That said, I believe that the full withdrawal of Russians from Ukraine will only occur when some kind of a domestic struggle brings Kremlin to its knees.
[QUOTE=Hestendk;2833306]Birthrate pro Woman is around 1,18 ATM. And its to low, it have to be around 2. If we are thinking the western way.
Ukrain have traditional have had a high unemployment rate, so if ukrain got it up to lets say 1. 8 I think that would be a good target rate, also remember more and more woman in ukrain take less free after a childbirth then before so their AR eincreasing the work capicity.[/QUOTE]That's thinking out of the box. And it makes sense.
[QUOTE=Hestendk;2833306]In Jan-April Russia burned 45 Billions USD mor then they made, they had a budget for 2023 in the Minus of 43 Billions.
Also they are printing money without the market knowing it is the roumor so the budget deficit is bigger then we can calculate.
I had the 60% from other sources that looked everything in.
The total Income Budget for Russia 2023 is 345 Billions, so lets divide that by 12 so every month they should get 28,75 billions in.
The first 4 months they then got 115 Billions in but used 160 Billions So okay that's an overspending of 40% in pure numbers.[/QUOTE]Fair enough, that is about 40%, and it's overspending of 45 billion. Say that goes on for a year at the same rate. Then you have 12/4 x 45 = 135 billion in overspending for the year. Russia's annual GDP on 3/31/2023 was 2.35 trillion USD. So the 135 billion is 5.7% of GDP. That's not a large amount considering they're in a war. For comparison, the USA budget deficit was 10.6% of GDP in 2021, 5.4% in 2022, and the consensus forecast for 2023 to 2025 is 5.4% to 5.7%.
[QUOTE=Hestendk;2833306]Also remember that russia was expecting and calculating with and Gas / Oil price more then 50% higher then what they are getting now.[/QUOTE]Good point. Russia is very dependent on oil and gas for tax revenue.
[QUOTE=Hestendk;2833306] just plain stupidity and planing was done without looking at the facts.
And yes it is interesting that I don't know anyone that died yet.
I know at least 20 people that are in the armed forces and 4 of them at least are in SOF teams.
I belive the russian dead numbers are much higher then 300.000, what I hear from the front is that they just meat and russia not care about their soldiers.
Russia again today been spotted 300 KM from ukrain sending more T55 in.[/QUOTE]I read somewhere that Russia had lost a large percentage of its tanks and other armaments in the war, and would be hard pressed to make up the shortfall.
I hope this war ends soon.
Again, thanks for sharing your on-the-ground observations.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2833317]Unlike you, I'm not trying to convert anyone, but here is a report (warning: a little technical) about the raise and fall of the insurgency in Ukraine in 1940-1950's. You may want to read at least the post-war part.
[URL]https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA562947.pdf[/URL]
That said, I believe that the full withdrawal of Russians from Ukraine will only occur when some kind of a domestic struggle brings Kremlin to its knees.[/QUOTE]It's getting late here Xpartan, I'll try to read it at lunch tomorrow. I'm not sure a domestic struggle will bring the Kremlin to its knees during our lifetimes, so that sounds like a gloomy prognosis.
My Ministry is only for Progressives who haven't seen the truth and the light of Classical Liberalism. Since this thread has little to do with economics, I'm not trying to convert anyone.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2833383]Russia's annual GDP on 3/31/2023 was 2.35 trillion USD. So the 135 billion is 5.7% of GDP. That's not a large amount considering they're in a war. For comparison, the USA budget deficit was 10.6% of GDP in 2021, 5.4% in 2022, and the consensus forecast for 2023 to 2025 is 5.4% to 5.7%.[/QUOTE]What consensus? One third of Russia's budget is classified, LOL. What do you think they're hiding? Are you trying to convince yourself that Russia is a normal country? It's not.
Russia Spending an Estimated $900 Million a Day on Ukraine War.
[URL]https://www.newsweek.com/russia-spending-estimated-900-million-day-ukraine-war-1704383[/URL]
Putin's War in Ukraine Has a Trillion-Dollar Price Tag.
[URL]https://www.newsweek.com/russia-spending-trillions-rubles-ukraine-war-1783463[/URL]
How Putin Cannibalizes Russian Economy to Survive Personally.
[URL]https://time.com/6291642/putin-cannibalizes-russian-economy[/URL]
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2833592]What consensus? One third of Russia's budget is classified, LOL. What do you think they're hiding? Are you trying to convince yourself that Russia is a normal country? It's not.
Russia Spending an Estimated $900 Million a Day on Ukraine War.
[URL]https://www.newsweek.com/russia-spending-estimated-900-million-day-ukraine-war-1704383[/URL]
Putin's War in Ukraine Has a Trillion-Dollar Price Tag.
[URL]https://www.newsweek.com/russia-spending-trillions-rubles-ukraine-war-1783463[/URL]
How Putin Cannibalizes Russian Economy to Survive Personally.
[URL]https://time.com/6291642/putin-cannibalizes-russian-economy[/URL][/QUOTE]Grasping at straws? One of those straws is yours, your Bloomberg link. Another is Hestendk's number. A third is an article from Newsweek, the same source you're quoting. To review, your Bloomberg link estimates the Russian budget deficit will be 3% to 4% of GDP. Hestendk's numbers point towards a budget deficit of 5.7% of GDP. And my Newsweek article says total Russian military spending is 4.4% of GDP.
The consensus is the average analyst's estimate for the USA budget deficit as tracked by Bloomberg. It has nothing to do with Russia.
The $9 trillion estimate for the cost to Russia in one of your links is laughable. The $900 million per day figure may be reasonable, especially if you're including the replacement value of Russia's weapons stockpiles. As I mentioned, I read an article that said Russia was running out of certain munitions and doesn't have the industrial capacity to maintain the pace of its war effort. And 900 million a day, if that's true, will be hard to maintain. It's about 14% of Russian GDP.
So what does that mean, again, if it's true? Russia turns tail and heads home? It starts using tactical nuclear weapons? Hell if I know. The best solution is a cease fire followed by an end to the war.
From what I'm reading, combined military spending by the USA, Europe and Ukraine on the war, including military aid, may be around $120 billion per year. That's $40 billion every 4 months, very close to Hestendk's number for the Russian deficit, the straw you referred to when you quoted my post. If Russia matches the $120 billion in Ukrainian spending and western military aid, it's about 5% of their GDP. Russia can sustain that indefinitely.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2833721]Grasping at straws? One of those straws is yours, your Bloomberg link. Another is Hestendk's number. A third is an article from Newsweek, the same source you're quoting. To review, your Bloomberg link estimates the Russian budget deficit will be 3% to 4% of GDP. Hestendk's numbers point towards a budget deficit of 5.7% of GDP. And my Newsweek article says total Russian military spending is 4.4% of GDP.
The consensus is the average analyst's estimate for the USA budget deficit as tracked by Bloomberg. It has nothing to do with Russia.
The $9 trillion estimate for the cost to Russia in one of your links is laughable. The $900 million per day figure may be reasonable, especially if you're including the replacement value of Russia's weapons stockpiles. As I mentioned, I read an article that said Russia was running out of certain munitions and doesn't have the industrial capacity to maintain the pace of its war effort. And 900 million a day, if that's true, will be hard to maintain. It's about 14% of Russian GDP.
So what does that mean, again, if it's true? Russia turns tail and heads home? It starts using tactical nuclear weapons? Hell if I know. The best solution is a cease fire followed by an end to the war.
From what I'm reading, combined military spending by the USA, Europe and Ukraine on the war, including military aid, may be around $120 billion per year. That's $40 billion every 4 months, very close to Hestendk's number for the Russian deficit, the straw you referred to when you quoted my post. If Russia matches the $120 billion in Ukrainian spending and western military aid, it's about 5% of their GDP. Russia can sustain that indefinitely.[/QUOTE]1. No, Russia can't sustain that indefinitely. You're referring to GDP as if it's a sacred cow. What is GDP? Tanks are GDP. Aircraft are GDP. Mines, bombs, missiles, big arms, small arms, it's all there, in GDP. If the government spends 30 or 50 percent of their budget on war, heightened security, and hysterical propaganda (all TV stations and periodicals in Russia are owned and financed by the government), the numbers don't matter. GDP can be sky-high just because the economy has shifted from making tractors to making tanks (or, more likely in this case, refitting the old ones that had already been written off on the paper), and with 30 percent of the budget classified -- YOU JUST DON'T KNOW how much exactly the government spends on war. But what anyone in Russia who's not an idiot knows, it's a lot and it's unsustainable.
The quality of the Russian military hardware is also dubious. There are no more legit ways of getting western components, and Russian economy depends on everything. Russian hardware is not just inferior to the West, it's light years behind. They can't build modern tanks or aircraft any longer. They started bringing to front lines T55 -- that's from 1940's! Their bombers and fighters are still superior to Ukraine's, but vastly inferior to even outdated F16 if -- BIG IF -- Ukraine finally gets them. Then it's the reckoning time.
2. The 9 trillion quote was in rubles. At the time of the publication it was $126 billions.
3. "Followed by peace" is not an option. There are two realistic options. To keep supporting Ukraine until they win and to stop supporting them with full understanding that they won't stop fighting. The second option would be a disaster. For us (see #4).
4. I don't know what it is, your stubbornness, some kind of deep-seated Russophilia, or crypto-admiration of Putin, but you're fundamentally wrong. Betraying Ukraine now when they're winning and helping war criminal Putin survive this calamity he started, would be, first and foremost, our own defeat, and not Ukraine's. Am I happy that Roosevelt wasn't as "fiscally responsible" as you guys.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2833841] I don't know what it is, your stubbornness, some kind of deep-seated Russophilia, or crypto-admiration of Putin, but you're fundamentally wrong. Betraying Ukraine now when they're winning and helping war criminal Putin survive this calamity he started, would be, first and foremost, our own defeat, and not Ukraine's. Am I happy that Roosevelt wasn't as "fiscally responsible" as you guys.[/QUOTE][URL]https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12277393/Democrats-horrified-Biden-sending-cluster-bombs-Ukraine.html[/URL]
[URL]https://youtu.be/C3_0GqPvr4U[/URL]
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2833912][URL]https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12277393/Democrats-horrified-Biden-sending-cluster-bombs-Ukraine.html[/URL]
[URL]https://youtu.be/C3_0GqPvr4U[/URL][/QUOTE]It's a bit interesting that you suddenly started posting here after Q stopped and are hugely Pro-Russian.
Since you are pointing out the DPCIMs that the US will provide to Ukraine, I would love to hear your opinion on the extensive and continued use of cluster munitions and more recently chemical weapons by the Russian armies? Also would be very good to know your stance on the kidnapped children, which is reported to be more than 500,000, who have been taken from Ukraine to be "educated" in Russia.
Please enlighten us?
Xpartan is correct, any result other than Ukraine winning back its land back to the 2014 borders at a minimum would be a catastrophic loss for the Western nations and call into question the efficacy of NATO. Russia can withdraw wherever it likes, there is no sword of damocles on the Nation, Putin on the other hand.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2834113]It's a bit interesting that you suddenly started posting here after Q stopped and are hugely Pro-Russian.
Since you are pointing out the DPCIMs that the US will provide to Ukraine, I would love to hear your opinion on the extensive and continued use of cluster munitions and more recently chemical weapons by the Russian armies? Also would be very good to know your stance on the kidnapped children, which is reported to be more than 500,000, who have been taken from Ukraine to be "educated" in Russia.
Please enlighten us?
Xpartan is correct, any result other than Ukraine winning back its land back to the 2014 borders at a minimum would be a catastrophic loss for the Western nations and call into question the efficacy of NATO. Russia can withdraw wherever it likes, there is no sword of damocles on the Nation, Putin on the other hand.[/QUOTE]Hugely pro-Russian? You completely mischaracterize what I wrote.
Of course I don't approve of the use of cluster munitions, chemical weapons or kidnapping. Yes, you have righteousness on your side. And yes, Russia and the Ukraine have already used cluster bombs on each other, so this is nothing new. As a USA Citizen I don't approve of my country using cluster bombs or providing them to other countries. I also don't approve of capital punishment, although I imagine that analogy is lost on you.
According to the press, one of the reasons the USA is providing cluster bombs is because the USA's supplies of certain other munitions is running low, as a result of military aid to Ukraine. The USA no longer manufactures cluster bombs, and I believe the last time it used them was 20 years ago. We're unlikely to use them in the future, on humanitarian grounds. But apparently it's OK to give them away.
Your, Zelensky's and others position that this cannot end until Russia withdraws to pre-2014 borders is a recipe for an endless war. And it's not fair to the people of Crimea, and probably some parts of the Donbass, where the majority want to be part of Russia. And, while they may not recognize it yet, it's not in the best interest of other Ukrainians, as it prevents a peace agreement that assures the country's security.
A peace agreement need not call into question the efficacy of NATO. It could involve a side deal with Ukraine where NATO guarantees its security.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3_0GqPvr4U
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2834138]Your, Zelensky's and others position that this cannot end until Russia withdraws to pre-2014 borders is a recipe for an endless war. And it's not fair to the people of Crimea, and probably some parts of the Donbass, where the majority want to be part of Russia. And, while they may not recognize it yet, it's not in the best interest of other Ukrainians, as it prevents a peace agreement that assures the country's security.
A peace agreement need not call into question the efficacy of NATO. It could involve a side deal with Ukraine where NATO guarantees its security.[/QUOTE]I do not think it is possible for you to conclude that there are parts of Donbass where the majority want to be part of Russia. Where are you getting this information? Was it from the "election" results, what is your opinion on the "referenda" conducted in Donetsk and Luhansk?
Allowing Russia to leave this conflict with something more than what they had previously will destroy any credibility for NATO as guarantors of peace. How would this even be possible, when the US and the UK did not step in when Russian broke the Budapest memoranda? Ukraine would be dependent on the whims of whoever was in charge and if Trump wins the next election, he has already stated he will try to force Ukraine to cede territory.
It is certainly not up to the likes of you (or me for that matter) to tell Ukrainians what is in their best interests, they have made it clear they want self determination, and the majority of Ukrainians are strongly opposed to ceding territory to Russia.
Given that the Russians continually lie and also break each and every accord they sign, I would say it is not possible to make any deals with them at all. If they are not completely exterminated from Ukrainian land, they will most likely regroup, and try again as soon as they can, and if they cannot do it via military means, they will employ all their soft power and troll factory resources to destablize Ukraine, and continue trying to sow discord in Europe and the US. This is not an outcome I want to see.
We have seen time and again that appeasement does not work. It will not work here. This conflict may span more years, however during that time, Russia will become more and more of a pariah, and during that time each Western power is doing all they can to remove any dependencies on their resources, which means that income for Russia will only shrink, not matter what the oil and gas price.
Russia as it is now is a dangerous and belligerent state, and I have had my eyes opened and fully agree with my friends in the Baltics and Poland, that they are not to be trusted in any way.
Should the Federation break up, only then will there be a chance for long term peaceful relations with Russia, but until then we need to give Ukraine everything it needs to defeat the invaders / occupiers / war criminals.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2834146]I do not think it is possible for you to conclude that there are parts of Donbass where the majority want to be part of Russia. Where are you getting this information? Was it from the "election" results, what is your opinion on the "referenda" conducted in Donetsk and Luhansk?[/QUOTE]Please see this article from 2019.
[URL]https://www.kyivpost.com/post/7557[/URL]
"Only 5.1 percent of people living in the Russia-controlled parts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions want Ukraine to regain control over the territories. Half (50.9 percent) want a union with Russia and another 13.4 percent said the region should accede to Russia with a "special status." For the whole of Donbas, including its Ukraine-controlled areas, 49.6 percent want it to become part of Russia, with another 13.3 percent choosing such a scenario with a "special status" for Donbas. A fifth (19.2 percent) see Donbas as part of Ukraine."
So apparently 50.9% wanted to live in a Russian oblast, and another 13.4% in something like a Russian territory (e.g. like Puerto Rico in the USA). Only 5.1% wanted to live in a Ukrainian controlled oblast.
I don't know much about the referenda.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2834146]Allowing Russia to leave this conflict with something more than what they had previously will destroy any credibility for NATO as guarantors of peace. How would this even be possible, when the US and the UK did not step in when Russian broke the Budapest memoranda? [/QUOTE]Russia's gotten a lot more than what it bargained for when it decided to invade Ukraine. NATO, the west and Ukraine must have much more credibility in Russia's eyes. Putin is rational. Seeing the cohesiveness of the west and the expansion of NATO to include Finland, he must be less enthusiastic about his adventures outside the Russian republic, or at least those that he believes will attract the west's attention.
I don't know the history of the Budapest memoranda, but suspect they were intended to protect Ukraine from the West more so than from Russia. Russia believes it was betrayed by NATO and the USA, when NATO expanded eastward after 1990, and Putin who's nationalistic and somewhat paranoid has unfortunately looked to correct this. If the USA and UK had committed troops to Ukraine as you apparently suggest we could be dead by now. Probably not, but it's possible.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2834146]Ukraine would be dependent on the whims of whoever was in charge and if Trump wins the next election, he has already stated he will try to force Ukraine to cede territory.[/QUOTE]Agreed.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2834146]It is certainly not up to the likes of you (or me for that matter) to tell Ukrainians what is in their best interests, they have made it clear they want self determination, and the majority of Ukrainians are strongly opposed to ceding territory to Russia.[/QUOTE]If the USA and Europeans are mostly funding the war effort they should have a say. And should IMHO push for an end to the war in a way that provides security for Ukrainians.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2834146]Given that the Russians continually lie and also break each and every accord they sign, I would say it is not possible to make any deals with them at all. If they are not completely exterminated from Ukrainian land, they will most likely regroup, and try again as soon as they can, and if they cannot do it via military means, they will employ all their soft power and troll factory resources to destablize Ukraine, and continue trying to sow discord in Europe and the US. This is not an outcome I want to see.[/QUOTE]Yes, Russia has and probably will continue to employ soft power and troll factories to destabilize Ukraine and sow discord in the Europe and the USA. It didn't have to be this way. If the west had pursued friendlier relations with Russia after the breakup of the USSR, maybe even making Russia a part of NATO as proposed by Putin in 2000, the world would be in a lot better shape. Perhaps Russia would look a lot like Hungary today, semi-autocratic but inside the tent instead of outside.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2834146]We have seen time and again that appeasement does not work. It will not work here. This conflict may span more years, however during that time, Russia will become more and more of a pariah, and during that time each Western power is doing all they can to remove any dependencies on their resources, which means that income for Russia will only shrink, not matter what the oil and gas price.
Russia as it is now is a dangerous and belligerent state, and I have had my eyes opened and fully agree with my friends in the Baltics and Poland, that they are not to be trusted in any way.
Should the Federation break up, only then will there be a chance for long term peaceful relations with Russia, but until then we need to give Ukraine everything it needs to defeat the invaders / occupiers / war criminals.[/QUOTE]OK, you're much more realistic than I thought you were about how long this may last. And maybe I'm an optimist about what the future holds after this war is over. I hope not.
[URL]https://youtu.be/C3_0GqPvr4U[/URL]
[QUOTE=VinDici;2834146]
Given that the Russians continually lie and also break each and every accord they sign, I would say it is not possible to make any deals with them at all. If they are not completely exterminated from Ukrainian land, they will most likely regroup, and try again as soon as they can, and if they cannot do it via military means, they will employ all their soft power and troll factory resources to destablize Ukraine, and continue trying to sow discord in Europe and the US. This is not an outcome I want to see.
We have seen time and again that appeasement does not work. It will not work here. This conflict may span more years, however during that time, Russia will become more and more of a pariah, and during that time each Western power is doing all they can to remove any dependencies on their resources, which means that income for Russia will only shrink, not matter what the oil and gas price.
Russia as it is now is a dangerous and belligerent state, and I have had my eyes opened and fully agree with my friends in the Baltics and Poland, that they are not to be trusted in any way.[/QUOTE]Any peace agreement with Russia other than "please-don't-shoot-at-us-while-we're-getting-out" (like the one that ended the war in Afghanistan) is pointless.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2834153]Please see this article from 2019.
[URL]https://www.kyivpost.com/post/7557[/URL]
"Only 5.1 percent of people living in the Russia-controlled parts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions want Ukraine to regain control over the territories. Half (50.9 percent) want a union with Russia and another 13.4 percent said the region should accede to Russia with a "special status." For the whole of Donbas, including its Ukraine-controlled areas, 49.6 percent want it to become part of Russia, with another 13.3 percent choosing such a scenario with a "special status" for Donbas. A fifth (19.2 percent) see Donbas as part of Ukraine."
So apparently 50.9% wanted to live in a Russian oblast, and another 13.4% in something like a Russian territory (e.g. like Puerto Rico in the USA). Only 5.1% wanted to live in a Ukrainian controlled oblast.
I don't know much about the referenda.[/QUOTE]You bring up a poll 3 years before the start of the war? Facepalm! No further comment needed.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2834153]
Russia's gotten a lot more than what it bargained for when it decided to invade Ukraine. NATO, the west and Ukraine must have much more credibility in Russia's eyes. Putin is rational. Seeing the cohesiveness of the west and the expansion of NATO to include Finland, he must be less enthusiastic about his adventures outside the Russian republic, or at least those that he believes will attract the west's attention.
I don't know the history of the Budapest memoranda, but suspect they were intended to protect Ukraine from the West more so than from Russia. Russia believes it was betrayed by NATO and the USA, when NATO expanded eastward after 1990, and Putin who's nationalistic and somewhat paranoid has unfortunately looked to correct this. If the USA and UK had committed troops to Ukraine as you apparently suggest we could be dead by now. Probably not, but it's possible.[/QUOTE]The expansion of NATO argument has been debunked hard, I can't believe you're bring this up now. Facepalm!
"We could be dead by now" "It's possible".
Given the evidence before our eyes of the Russian army performance versus deprecated NATO arms, if there had been a kinetic war, Russia would have been fucked hard. So yes it's "possible", but in the sense that an asteroid could hit our heads tomorrow.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2834153]If the west had pursued friendlier relations with Russia after the breakup of the USSR, maybe even making Russia a part of NATO as proposed by Putin in 2000, the world would be in a lot better shape. Perhaps Russia would look a lot like Hungary today, semi-autocratic but inside the tent instead of outside.[/QUOTE]Wow a lot of parroting of Kremlin narratives. In line with the Kremlin narrative you also have neglected to explain why Russia didn't just trade and become an equal partner instead of secretly fucking with everyone and invading it's neighbours. As Kasparov predicted, putting a former KGB agent in charge is not going to work out well.
NATO is setup to counter the "chimpanzee with a machine gun" that is the Russian state. Please explain how admitting Putin into NATO and sharing all of our weapons technologies and strategies would have been a good idea?
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2834153]OK, you're much more realistic than I thought you were about how long this may last. And maybe I'm an optimist about what the future holds after this war is over. I hope not.[/QUOTE]You have a lot of disingenuous arguments, but at least try to engage in debate, unlike the other pair of absolute fuckheads. You'll find people here are not completely blind to the realities of what is happening, however it is not constructive to engage in debate with Z propagandists.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2834340]You bring up a poll 3 years before the start of the war? Facepalm! No further comment needed.[/QUOTE]Would you trust a poll after the start of the war in "Russian controlled parts of Donetsk and Luhansk," even if conducted by respected Ukrainian institutions like Dzerkalo Tyzhnia?
[QUOTE=VinDici;2834340]The expansion of NATO argument has been debunked hard, I can't believe you're bring this up now. Facepalm![/QUOTE]Yes, the Slavic Studies Council at the National Securities Archive at George Washington University did debunk your side of the argument hard.
[URL]https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early[/URL]
Wikipedia presents both sides of the argument. Mine's more compelling.
[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversy_in_Russia_regarding_the_legitimacy_of_eastward_NATO_expansion[/URL]
[QUOTE=VinDici;2834340]Wow a lot of parroting of Kremlin narratives. In line with the Kremlin narrative you also have neglected to explain why Russia didn't just trade and become an equal partner instead of secretly fucking with everyone and invading it's neighbours. As Kasparov predicted, putting a former KGB agent in charge is not going to work out well.
NATO is setup to counter the "chimpanzee with a machine gun" that is the Russian state. Please explain how admitting Putin into NATO and sharing all of our weapons technologies and strategies would have been a good idea?[/QUOTE]Firstly if Russia had been on a path to NATO not long after the USSR disintegrated and Yeltsin became president, Putin might never have been elected, or at least his views might be very different today. Yes, it would have been a long process, but well worth it if it had succeeded.
I'm no expert on this. Yuriy Davydov, NATO Research Fellow, was. Perhaps you could debunk what he said. For example, that "voluntary mutual co-operation (with NATO) in the field of security would be a key to assertion of democratic values" in Russia. Or that "the final outcome of Russia joining NATO would be the establishment of an integrated, structurally formed security system of free and democratic states on the vast territories from Vancouver to Vladivostok. It could contain dozens of states that never fight against each other, thus establishing an extensive peace zone and exerting restraining influence on the surrounding areas. This system could to a certain extent become a model of comprehensive international security system. ".
[URL]https://www.nato.int/acad/fellow/98-00/davydov.pdf[/URL]
[QUOTE=VinDici;2834340]You have a lot of disingenuous arguments, but at least try to engage in debate, unlike the other pair of absolute fuckheads. You'll find people here are not completely blind to the realities of what is happening, however it is not constructive to engage in debate with Z propagandists.[/QUOTE]Treat them with respect and they most likely will engage respectfully.
[URL]https://youtu.be/C3_0GqPvr4U[/URL]
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2834389]
Yes, the Slavic Studies Council at the National Securities Archive at George Washington University did debunk your side of the argument hard.
[URL]https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early[/URL][/QUOTE]And Gorbachev debunked your Council.
[QUOTE]The topic of NATO expansion was not discussed at all, and it wasnt brought up in those years. I say this with full responsibility. Not a singe Eastern European country raised the issue, not even after the Warsaw Pact ceased to exist in 1991. Western leaders didnt bring it up, either. Another issue we brought up was discussed: making sure that NATOs military structures would not advance and that additional armed forces from the alliance would not be deployed on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Bakers statement, mentioned in your question, was made in that context. Kohl and German Vice Chancellor Hans-Dietrich Genscher talked about it. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2834389]Firstly if Russia had been on a path to NATO not long after the USSR disintegrated and Yeltsin became president, Putin might never have been elected, or at least his views might be very different today. Yes, it would have been a long process, but well worth it if it had succeeded.[/QUOTE]Sure, why not flip a bird to all East European nations by bringing in the same crazy bear they are seeking protection from? I mean, do these people think they matter? Huh!
I might have an even better idea for you. Let's start hiring abusive husbands and boyfriends for Domestic Violence shelters. I'm sure that would work out just fine.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2834389]I'm no expert on this. Yuriy Davydov, NATO Research Fellow, was. Perhaps you could debunk what he said. For example, that "voluntary mutual co-operation (with NATO) in the field of security would be a key to assertion of democratic values" in Russia. [/QUOTE]So that's what realpolitic is -- pipe dreams galore.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2834389]Treat them with respect and they most likely will engage respectfully.[/QUOTE]Propagandists are the lowest form of life on this planet. Not happening.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2834340]Wow a lot of parroting of Kremlin narratives.[/QUOTE]That's what he's been doing daily for many months now on the American Politics thread in the ISG "Opinions" forum while calling himself a centrist. He's been debunked from here to Sunday then recently came to this thread to restart even though he's never been to Ukraine. Likely he discovered this discussion by searching the post histories of people he's been going back in forth with on the other thread.
For example he has ignored all that facts that clearly debunk the notion that Russia was given an oral promise regarding no NATO expansion into Eastern Europe. It's plainly false, but even if true only a complete fool wouldn't insist on getting something so important in writing.
[URL]https://hls.harvard.edu/today/there-was-no-promise-not-to-enlarge-nato/[/URL]
[URL]https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/feb/28/candace-owens/fact-checking-claims-nato-us-broke-agreement-again/[/URL]
[URL]https://theconversation.com/ukraine-the-history-behind-russias-claim-that-nato-promised-not-to-expand-to-the-east-177085[/URL]
So what can you do with someone who digs in online, ignores all corrections and keeps repeating the same fallacious arguments over and over? Ultimately all you can do is ignore them.
[URL]https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_nauseam[/URL]
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2834463]That's what he's been doing daily for many months now on the American Politics thread in the ISG "Opinions" forum while calling himself a centrist. He's been debunked from here to Sunday then recently came to this thread to restart even though he's never been to Ukraine. Likely he discovered this discussion by searching the post histories of people he's been going back in forth with on the other thread.
For example he has ignored all that facts that clearly debunk the notion that Russia was given an oral promise regarding no NATO expansion into Eastern Europe. It's plainly false, but even if true only a complete fool wouldn't insist on getting something so important in writing.
[URL]https://hls.harvard.edu/today/there-was-no-promise-not-to-enlarge-nato/[/URL]
[URL]https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/feb/28/candace-owens/fact-checking-claims-nato-us-broke-agreement-again/[/URL]
[URL]https://theconversation.com/ukraine-the-history-behind-russias-claim-that-nato-promised-not-to-expand-to-the-east-177085[/URL]
So what can you do with someone who digs in online, ignores all corrections and keeps repeating the same fallacious arguments over and over? Ultimately all you can do is ignore them.
[URL]https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_nauseam[/URL][/QUOTE]Fair enough. I don't want to intrude upon your private war fest.
Just one last thing for Xpartan first though.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2834458]And Gorbachev debunked your Council.[/QUOTE]As communicated to you earlier.
Gorbachev in 2008:
"The Americans promised that Nato wouldn't move beyond the boundaries of Germany after the Cold War but now half of central and eastern Europe are members, so what happened to their promises? It shows they cannot be trusted."
[URL]https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/1933223/Gorbachev-US-could-start-new-Cold-War.html[/URL]
Gorbachev, from 2009:
"Kohl, US Secretary of State James Baker and others assured me that NATO would not move an inch east. The Americans didn't stick to that, and the Germans didn't care. Maybe they even rubbed their hands at how well the Russians were ripped off. What did it bring? It's just that the Russians no longer trust Western promises."
[URL]https://www.bild.de/politik/2009/bild-medienpreis/die-deutschen-waren-nicht-aufzuhalten-7864098.bild.html[/URL]
[URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3_0GqPvr4U[/URL]
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2834389]Treat them with respect and they most likely will engage respectfully.[/QUOTE]They are a pair of cunts. The interactions with them are the same as with the Russian State, respectful engagement made no difference, both of those fuckheads ignored any debate, lied over and over again, and spread falsehoods and propaganda. Next time read the history of the thread before telling us to show respect.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2834584]
Just one last thing for Xpartan first though.
As communicated to you earlier.
Gorbachev in 2008:
"The Americans promised that Nato wouldn't move beyond the boundaries of Germany after the Cold War but now half of central and eastern Europe are members, so what happened to their promises? It shows they cannot be trusted."
[URL]https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/1933223/Gorbachev-US-could-start-new-Cold-War.html[/URL]
Gorbachev, from 2009:
"Kohl, US Secretary of State James Baker and others assured me that NATO would not move an inch east. The Americans didn't stick to that, and the Germans didn't care. Maybe they even rubbed their hands at how well the Russians were ripped off. What did it bring? It's just that the Russians no longer trust Western promises."
[URL]https://www.bild.de/politik/2009/bild-medienpreis/die-deutschen-waren-nicht-aufzuhalten-7864098.bild.html[/URL]
[URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3_0GqPvr4U[/URL][/QUOTE]And as communicated to you, Tiny, I'm well aware that Gorby gave different accounts on different occasions, but his earlier accounts can be dismissed with prejudice for a simple reason: he and his foundation had to coexist in the same country with Putin right after Putin's 2007 Munich speech launched Russia's most rancid anti-Nato campaign since the Cold War. Thus, Gorbachev's 2008 and 2009 interviews should be considered strictly a way to appease his increasingly volatile and totalitarian chieftain.
[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Munich_speech_of_Vladimir_Putin[/URL]
In 2011 when Putin's intent to usurp power indefinitely became abundantly clear, Gorbachev publicly denounced Putin and repeated his accusations the following years.
So it only stands to reason that Gorbachev in 2008 and 2009 doesn't hold a candle to Gorbachev in 2015.
And even beyond Gorby's own words, you've been offered enough evidence that there have never been any agreements and / or promises not to extend Nato beyond the borders of Germany. If you can't except the facts, I don't think there is anything else that can be done about it.
Kremlin propaganda / false information has fueled an unprovoked invasion of a sovereign land while directly targeting and murdering civilians with precision weapons. This has also involved the deportation and indoctrination of about 200 K Ukrainian children. Their false narratives are no more worthy of respect than Holocaust deniers. Plus respect wouldn't do any good anyway as you can't reason with such people while they'd never honor any agreements. But we are covering ground that was covered long ago, and in greater detail. Anyone interested can go back to the start of the war and forward, chronologically in this thread.
P.S. Regarding the Russian speakers in the Donbass that prefer Russia, it's a good thing that they have a short journey, whether by car or foot. Get out of Ukraine and don't let the door hit you in the ass. It's easy. Go be Russian. A lot of Russian speakers were planted in that area since the Stalinist era famine that killed off millions of Ukrainians.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2834868]And even beyond Gorby's own words, you've been offered enough evidence that there have never been any agreements and / or promises not to extend Nato beyond the borders of Germany. If you can't except the facts, I don't think there is anything else that can be done about it.[/QUOTE]That gwu website is, as even if some one term wonder Herbert Walker Bush administration official made some no eastward expansion statement over a cup of coffee it's as useless as tits on a boar hog. Little Vlad and everyone else knows that. There's no US official including the president that can make unilateral policies for NATO. Of course nothing is in writing plus the Warsaw Pact was still in place at that time, setting context. Viewed in the best possible light Russia still has no leg to stand on plus no right to any sphere of influence with an economy about the size of Texas.
It's ironic that Russia complains about an agreement that was never made while clearly breaking one themselves with their invasion.
[URL]https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/09/us/politics/russia-ukraine-james-baker.html[/URL]
A couple days ago, Mr. Pu had a meeting with Irkutsk Governor Mr. Kobzev. In the course of sucking up to the boss, Mr. Kobzev gave him a photograph depicting a group of fallen soldiers and said: "We have 192 citizens of Irkutsk awarded with state awards. Orders, medals. Of these, the youngest, Hero of Russia, is Private Eduard Dyakonov, who died in Mariupol in March last year. He covered a grenade with his body, thereby saving his fellow soldiers. This is very valuable for us, for us they are all heroes, they are in our memory, in our hearts. ".
Mr. Pu responds under his breath: "Tell them I said Hello. ".
Not a joke!
[URL]https://twitter.com/i/status/1681328245885530113[/URL]
The hardest part to me was to believe that the transcript of this meeting is still on Putin's official website -- after every Twitter and Youtube pandit has had their fun with that. But here it is.
The primary source:
[URL]http://kremlin.ru/events/president/news/71688[/URL]
[URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAJ5vjHEvtI&t=107s[/URL]
I watched this guys video for one minute and had to click out. Although too cowardly to fight on the front line, he's waging a propaganda war against Russia while no doubt safely nailing toots in Kiev. A real hero of Ukraine.
[QUOTE=Riina;2839654][URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAJ5vjHEvtI&t=107s[/URL]
I watched this guys video for one minute and had to click out. [/QUOTE]But of course you did. You're a Putin fanboy, why would you have a different reaction?
[QUOTE=Riina;2839654]I watched this guys video...[/QUOTE]Why not just post in the Russia forum and tell your good buddies how awesome it is to kill Ukrainians. Fuck off out of here you prick.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2841149]Why not just post in the Russia forum and tell your good buddies how awesome it is to kill Ukrainians. Fuck off out of here you prick.[/QUOTE]I can tell you're a vile American VinDick and I can tell the youtuber I posted about is the same vile POS.
[QUOTE=Riina;2841150]I can tell...[/QUOTE]Everyone can tell you're a Rii-tard, and wipe your dirty mouth, you still have cum dripping from the corners from sucking all those RuZZian dicks.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2841706]Everyone can tell you're a Rii-tard, and wipe your dirty mouth, you still have cum dripping from the corners from sucking all those RuZZian dicks.[/QUOTE]Now that we know who you are, how much do you pay for a girl?
[QUOTE=Riina;2841710]Now that we know who you are, how much do you pay for a girl?[/QUOTE]Happy to explain it to you Rii-tard. They pay me. I just show them the dumb shit you post here, and they laugh so hard at the entertainment, they suck my dick and give me a little extra for printing out a screenshot.
I got a rush when I heard the news about Prigo. The Russian way.
[QUOTE=Riina;2846392]
Viva La Putin
I got a rush when I heard the news about Prigo. The Russian way.[/QUOTE]You poor guy. May I suggest Hydrocortisone?
But in seriousness, you're 100% right.
First, she flees the capital the moment her former chef announces a March on Moscow with a HUGE, HUGE army of 5,000 scoundrels.
No, I'm sorry. First, she shits her pants, then flees the capital.
Next, after she's out of danger, she sends the chef a dinner invite and blows him out of sky. And 10 more people with him, just for being around. Wrong place, wrong time, nothing personal.
No seriously, you're right. That's very Russian way.
Totally.
I do have a question, though.
Why did you turn Putin into a woman? Is she really?
[QUOTE=Riina;2846392]I got a rush when I heard the news about Prigo. The Russian way.[/QUOTE]And the Rii-Tard is back again. Why post this on the Ukrainian board and not the Russian one?
[QUOTE=VinDici;2846538]And the Rii-Tard is back again. Why post this on the Ukrainian board and not the Russian one?[/QUOTE]I was just thinking about the respite we have recently from the pro Russian bots. Now that Prizgoshin is gone who will be paying them?
[blue][Deleted by Admin][/blue]
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2846612]I was just thinking about the respite we have recently from the pro Russian bots. Now that Prizgoshin is gone who will be paying them?[/QUOTE]For some reason they see it as their patriotic duty to post in the UA forum of a mongering site. They should stick to their Telegram groups and fuck off. Rii-Tard must be sucking down that copium dick real deep about now.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2846872]For some reason they see it as their patriotic duty to post in the UA forum of a mongering site. They should stick to their Telegram groups and fuck off. Rii-Tard must be sucking down that copium dick real deep about now.[/QUOTE]It's hardly about patriotism. Trolling maybe.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2846926]It's hardly about patriotism. Trolling maybe.[/QUOTE]I think it is about Patriotism, since they are trolling on behalf of their Mafia state in the sub for Ukraine. They could discuss the war in the Russian sub just as easily, but none of them has ever said a word there about it. We are however in agreement, RuZZians posting here is pure trolling and nothing constructive.
No, not Trump, not DeSantis.
[QUOTE]Host Evgeny Popov noted, We should take a closer look at this Mr. Ramaswamy. The last time, we had installed President Trump for Americans, but our bet didnt quite work out. Why not try again? Lets give it another try and see how Ramaswamy will perform, in case Trump doesnt manage to win the post of the president. [/QUOTE]Perhaps recalling that Russian TV programs can also be viewed abroad, he quickly added, "Just kidding. "
Yep, kidding.
[URL]https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-remains-russias-favorite-but-goper-vivek-ramaswami-is-new-no2[/URL]
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2848649]No, not Trump, not DeSantis.
Perhaps recalling that Russian TV programs can also be viewed abroad, he quickly added, "Just kidding. "
Yep, kidding.
[URL]https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-remains-russias-favorite-but-goper-vivek-ramaswami-is-new-no2[/URL][/QUOTE]XMan what do you think this war accomplishing? Ukraine is getting there ass kicked and there country is being destroyed. Russian economy is doing much better then most of the world. Sanctions have failed miserably.
They In your crazy liberal world Ukraine is winning.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2848833]XMan what do you think this war accomplishing? Ukraine is getting there ass kicked and there country is being destroyed. Russian economy is doing much better then most of the world. Sanctions have failed miserably.
They In your crazy liberal world Ukraine is winning.[/QUOTE]Putin will have you arrested and put in jail for 10 years for calling it a war. Its a special military retreat.
Russias economy is in the toilet. They can't use any of the rupees India pay for oil so they only have China as a friend that is just as likely to invade siberia and sieze their oilfields as support their special miltary defeat.
If Russia was winning why are they constantly in retreat? If Russia had a modicum of capability they would be in Kiev in control. The fact is that soon the Sea of Azov will be in fire control of Ukrainian forces and all the south including crimea will be isolated and once the ammo runs out that's the end. Putin will be taking flying lessons from a tall building while Ukraine mops up the north east.
Of course Neocons are constantly on the wrong side of reality.
[QUOTE=GDreams;2848944]Putin will have you arrested and put in jail for 10 years for calling it a war. Its a special military retreat.
Russias economy is in the toilet. They can't use any of the rupees India pay for oil so they only have China as a friend that is just as likely to invade siberia and sieze their oilfields as support their special miltary defeat.
If Russia was winning why are they constantly in retreat? If Russia had a modicum of capability they would be in Kiev in control. The fact is that soon the Sea of Azov will be in fire control of Ukrainian forces and all the south including crimea will be isolated and once the ammo runs out that's the end. Putin will be taking flying lessons from a tall building while Ukraine mops up the north east.
Of course Neocons are constantly on the wrong side of reality.[/QUOTE]Wow, you are smoking the same crap Xman is. You are in total denial. Keep watching CNN and the BBC. Unlike you clowns I want a peace and settlement.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2848833]...Russian economy is doing much better then most of the world. Sanctions have failed miserably...[/QUOTE]There is a ceiling on truth, but disinformation and lies expand without limit.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2846612]I was just thinking about the respite we have recently from the pro Russian bots. Now that Prizgoshin is gone who will be paying them?[/QUOTE]It seems the respite is over. They probably reorganized, put another guy in charge of the Internet Research Agency or whatever they call it nowadays and figured out how to resume payroll. I swear, though, they must've never had another employee as dumb and lazy as Drama. Even if they pay him 100 rubles an hour, that's already too much.
[QUOTE=GDreams;2848944]Putin will have you arrested and put in jail for 10 years for calling it a war. Its a special military retreat.
Russias economy is in the toilet. They can't use any of the rupees India pay for oil so they only have China as a friend that is just as likely to invade siberia and sieze their oilfields as support their special miltary defeat.
If Russia was winning why are they constantly in retreat? If Russia had a modicum of capability they would be in Kiev in control. The fact is that soon the Sea of Azov will be in fire control of Ukrainian forces and all the south including crimea will be isolated and once the ammo runs out that's the end. Putin will be taking flying lessons from a tall building while Ukraine mops up the north east.
Of course Neocons are constantly on the wrong side of reality.[/QUOTE]The President of RF is not in charge of prosecution, in the same way like the POTUS is not in charge. The information about balances in Indian rupees is fake news. The Russian Armed Forces are not in retreat at the moment. The RF won't run out ammo as we produce now 3 times more than every Western nation combined and also get certain supplies from friendly nations. We try to save lives, achieve the goals of the military operation without an escalation with NATO all following political and military decisions at the top with a lot of resolve and responsibility.
[URL]https://youtu.be/WF2oIHoEU6s?si=Vmps3kxRCrAHe7f-[/URL]
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2849141]It seems the respite is over. They probably reorganized, put another guy in charge of the Internet Research Agency or whatever they call it nowadays and figured out how to resume payroll. I swear, though, they must've never had another employee as dumb and lazy as Drama. Even if they pay him 100 rubles an hour, that's already too much.[/QUOTE]Agreed seems like Tweedledumbfuck and TweedleRee are back again.
Just my opinion that the hard right throwing a pipe wrench into the system is a conspiracy of the left and right to stop the money and end the shit show.
[QUOTE=Riina;2861051]Just my opinion that the hard right throwing a pipe wrench into the system is a conspiracy of the left and right to stop the money and end the shit show.[/QUOTE]Well, there has not been any financial responsibility with any pols lately.
[URL]https://www.pgpf.org/blog/2023/02/interest-costs-on-the-national-debt-are-on-track-to-reach-a-record-high[/URL]#text=Interest%20 costs%20 represented%20 about%208,spends%20 on%20 income%20 security%20 programs.
Net interest payments on the national debt rose from $352 billion in 2021 to $475 billion in 2022. As of August 2023 it costs $808 billion to maintain the debt, which is 15% of the total federal spending.
Riina, I agree with you on limiting the spending but what you call a conspiracy, I call an empty wallet.
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2861263]Riina, I agree with you on limiting the spending but what you call a conspiracy, I call an empty wallet.[/QUOTE]If anyone is nearing currency collapse and bankruptcy, it's Vlad and chums.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2861614]If anyone is nearing currency collapse and bankruptcy, it's Vlad and chums.[/QUOTE]Hardly.
Debt to GDP in Russia is 16%. In the USA, it is 121%.
Russian data reached an all-time high of 384.2 USD billion in Jun 2022. Russia National Government Debt reached 267.3 USD billion in Aug 2023, compared with 281.9 USD bn in the previous month.
I think being Democrat means you do not know the value of numbers. Putin is failing. He is going down anytime now. We have to stay the course.
When Putin is paying $120 billion in debt down, does that look like he is failing?
Compare that to the USA and Biden.
You Dems want to compare Biden to Trump on anything. You compare Biden to Putin and Putin wins in a landslide.
The Biden strategy in Ukriane is we get poorer while Russia gets richer.
Now call me a Putin bootlicker to compensate for your horrible lack of knowledge. What else you got?
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2861657]Hardly.
Debt to GDP in Russia is 16%...[/QUOTE]You're right, you nailed it. You have sold all your dollars, euros, pounds etc and purchased Rubles right?
You put your money where your mouth is of course.
The Biden's 'strategy' on Ukraine can be only allegorically compared to The Blind Leading the Blind, or The Parable of the Blind by the Dutch artist Pieter Bruegel the Elder, completed in 1568.
[QUOTE=Questner;2861745]The Biden's 'strategy' on Ukraine can be only allegorically compared to The Blind Leading the Blind, or The Parable of the Blind by the Dutch artist Pieter Bruegel the Elder, completed in 1568.[/QUOTE]It's not only the Biden strategy but the strategy the majority of Republican lawmakers have agreed with and still do. We are the leaders of the free world and have a role to play in Europe. The views of isolationists not only give us a small view of America, but are impractical in a world so interconnected.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2861736]You're right, you nailed it. You have sold all your dollars, euros, pounds etc and purchased Rubles right?
You put your money where your mouth is of course.[/QUOTE]LOL. Currency is a good investment? Russian inflation is running 6%. USA is running 4%. Both currencies are shit investments. With one, you lose 6% a year, and the other is 4%.
Obviously, Democrats like you are happy losing 4% a year. Take that Putin! USA! USA!
Given a $140,000,000 a day war tab for the AFU the reported banking check would have sustained the effort for about 2 minutes.
[URL]https://oversight.house.gov/release/comer-releases-evidence-of-direct-payment-to-joe-biden/[/URL]
[QUOTE=Questner;2861745]The Biden's 'strategy' on Ukraine can be only allegorically compared to The Blind Leading the Blind, or The Parable of the Blind by the Dutch artist Pieter Bruegel the Elder, completed in 1568.[/QUOTE]Bidden and the clowns he had around him have done so much damage to Ukraine, almost as much a Putin. The war should have never started and they should came up with a peace agreement a year, but they pushed there luck. Now Ukraine will be lucky to keep Odessa.
Great job Bidden, Pres. Z. , and the other Euros that endorsed this war. What an absolute mess. As I said many times Ukraine always loses, now they have taken it to whole different level, what a joke!
[QUOTE=Questner;2861745]The Biden's 'strategy' on Ukraine can be only allegorically compared to The Blind Leading the Blind, or The Parable of the Blind by the Dutch artist Pieter Bruegel the Elder, completed in 1568.[/QUOTE]The strategy seems to be working, the recent ATACMs delivery has been a sensation. I can't wait to see how the situation develops once the F-16's are unleashed.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2862019]Bidden and the clowns he had around him have done so much damage to Ukraine, almost as much a Putin.[/QUOTE]I agree. They really messed it up. Ukrainians in the states don't want to hear about this war anymore. Time to accept reality and pick up the pieces.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2862072]The strategy seems to be working, the recent ATACMs delivery has been a sensation. I can't wait to see how the situation develops once the F-16's are unleashed.[/QUOTE]Delusional, keep watching fake news!!
Written in 1831 the poet 'tells the French to leave Slavs alone because the eventual outcome of all quarrels between Slavs must be decided between Slavs themselves'.
The original [URL]https://www.culture.ru/poems/4966/klevetnikam-rossii[/URL].
19th century translation: [URL]https://www.poetrynook.com/poem/slanderers-russia[/URL].
Whenever the chance presents itself and you have a folly to discuss the conflict with your Russian speaking lady, don't forget the above.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2862201]Delusional, keep watching fake news!![/QUOTE]What is fake here?
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2862201]Delusional, keep watching fake news!![/QUOTE]Exactly. Looks like America only handed over about 10 Atacms, most of which if not all have been used up. And they had limited range. The F16's won't show up until some time next year, and when they do, they won't make any difference, they will be quickly shot down by the S400.
I told everyone on this forum that Russia would win and to write that down. To all the folks that believed the western lies and the fake news, now you know I was right. What a horrible tragedy for Ukraine, I honestly feel so bad for Ukraine. All this could've been avoided had Ukraine accepted neutrality and autonomy for the Donbas (Minsk accords). But the west and the NATO warmongers took Ukraine down the primrose path. May they rot in eternal hell. And no, I am not defending Putin. But you have to understand that Russia, like China and the United States is a great power. Great powers have their red lines and national security concerns. Ukraine and NATO expansion was Russia's. Ukraine was ready to accept neutrality and autonomy for the Donbas in 2022 March in Istanbul. Then that pathetic Boris Johson came to Kiev and told that corrupt actor Zelensky to ditch the peace talks. Imagine if those peace talks had been allowed to succeed. Like I said, may those NATO warmongers rot in hell.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2862366]What is fake here?[/QUOTE]The war for all intents and purposes is over mate. Time to wake up.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2862019]Bidden and the clowns he had around him have done so much damage to Ukraine, almost as much a Putin. The war should have never started and they should came up with a peace agreement a year, but they pushed there luck. Now Ukraine will be lucky to keep Odessa.
Great job Bidden, Pres. Z. , and the other Euros that endorsed this war. What an absolute mess. As I said many times Ukraine always loses, now they have taken it to whole different level, what a joke![/QUOTE]I'm quite certain the Russians will try to take Odessa and Kharkov, both historically Russian cities with a lot of Russian speakers. After that I honestly don't know what he has in mind. Some are saying he will annex a further 2 Oblasts after that.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2875231]I'm quite certain the Russians will try to take Odessa and Kharkov, both historically Russian cities with a lot of Russian speakers. After that I honestly don't know what he has in mind. Some are saying he will annex a further 2 Oblasts after that.[/QUOTE]Yep, and Pres. Z. Will be lucky if he makes it to Christmas. What a joke!
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2875231]I'm quite certain the Russians will try to take Odessa and Kharkov, both historically Russian cities with a lot of Russian speakers. After that I honestly don't know what he has in mind. Some are saying he will annex a further 2 Oblasts after that.[/QUOTE]Russian speaker does not mean anything. My ex wife and her family spoke Russian and are all fighting them.
Drama's finally gotten reinforcements, I see. Good! I can only imagine how lonely it's been for him lately.
I wonder how things are at the Internet Research Agency nowadays -- After Putin blew up their former boss out of the air.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2875229]
I told everyone on this forum that Russia would win and to write that down. To all the folks that believed the western lies and the fake news, now you know I was right. What a horrible tragedy for Ukraine, I honestly feel so bad for Ukraine. All this could've been avoided had Ukraine accepted neutrality and autonomy for the Donbas (Minsk accords). But the west and the NATO warmongers took Ukraine down the primrose path. May they rot in eternal hell. And no, I am not defending Putin. But you have to understand that Russia, like China and the United States is a great power. Great powers have their red lines and national security concerns. Ukraine and NATO expansion was Russia's. Ukraine was ready to accept neutrality and autonomy for the Donbas in 2022 March in Istanbul. Then that pathetic Boris Johson came to Kiev and told that corrupt actor Zelensky to ditch the peace talks. Imagine if those peace talks had been allowed to succeed. Like I said, may those NATO warmongers rot in hell.[/QUOTE]Yeah, it looks like the narrative has finally failed to work. [URL]https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/biden-raises-possibility-american-troops-fighting-russian-troops[/URL].
On Wednesday President Joe Biden suggested that if Congress doesn't send Ukraine more money, now, it may 'embolden' Russian President Vladimir Putin to invade a NATO ally, which would precipitate "American troops fighting Russian troops. ".
The threat was not persuasive. Senate Republicans Block Biden Ukraine Aid Despite Warning. Senate Republicans channeled Elon Musk (G. F. why.), blocking Biden's $111 emergency supplemental package that would also include aid for Israel, humanitarian aid for Gaza, and a smattering of border funding.
End of quote.
I heard on Joe Rogan's show that $6 billion would have rebuilt every home in Maui lost to the fire there, and the government balked at spending the money there. We learned when President Xi came to San Francisco that the city could be cleaned up and cleaned up fast. We know the Mexican border is fucked up, but hey, we got all this money for Ukraine.
I think the part that Biden's spiel is missing is how the Europeans in NATO have checked out and also how the war has been popular in Russia. Those neocons were completely ignorant of Russian feelings and how NATO creeping up into Ukraine was perceived as threatening. Now the Russia has the territory it wants for its defense, my understanding is they are okay with Ukraine joining NATO now. LOL.
How fucking stupid is it that there was all this money for Ukraine and so little for San Francisco, Maui, and the border? And BTW, these are historically Democratic regions.
It would be nice if our defense department really was for defense. Apparently, the neocon / war mongers switched from the Republican to Democratic party.
I hope I can go back to Russia someday and apologize to them for all this money spent and tell them, "Hey, I voted for Trump. ".
This is and was such a fucking stupid war. You are right, BR. It should have been over in March 2022.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2875447]Drama's finally gotten reinforcements, I see. Good! I can only imagine how lonely it's been for him lately.
I wonder how things are at the Internet Research Agency nowadays -- After Putin blew up their former boss out of the air.[/QUOTE]Finally, the truth is coming out. Now maybe you will go away, or go hang out with Paulina and your other whacked out friends. I guess the job with CNN did not work out.
This is one of the dumbest wars of all time, and yes, I was correct and with a few others. Now maybe the liberals will learn a lesson from the massive debacle, but I doubt it.
It's funny how they're grasping at straws hoping to deliver the victory to the Russian dictator and Trump's buddy -- now by denying assistance to the nation fighting against the bloodthirsty tyrant. It's all futile. Helping Ukraine defeat this pure fascist regime is crucial to our own and European security. So much so that this fuckfest too will pass, Ukraine will get the money and the weapons, the Third Rome will choke in the pool of its own blood, and new states (including new Russia) will emerge from this bloody mess. Won't be long, either.
Each time the orcs suffer a major setback, the activity in here and other forums by the Kremlin Troll factory goes into overdrive. The more they post hateful posts in Ukrainian forums, the worse it tends to be going for the occupiers.
I'll remind everyone again, that no one is posting trolls in the Russian forum, but here as in the geographical location, Ukraine support is constantly under attack.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2875712]It's funny how they're grasping at straws hoping to deliver the victory to the Russian dictator and Trump's buddy -- now by denying assistance to the nation fighting against the bloodthirsty tyrant. It's all futile. Helping Ukraine defeat this pure fascist regime is crucial to our own and European security. So much so that this fuckfest too will pass, Ukraine will get the money and the weapons, the Third Rome will choke in the pool of its own blood, and new states (including new Russia) will emerge from this bloody mess. Won't be long, either.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2875448]Yeah, it looks like the narrative has finally failed to work. [URL]https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/biden-raises-possibility-american-troops-fighting-russian-troops[/URL].
On Wednesday President Joe Biden suggested that if Congress doesn't send Ukraine more money, now, it may 'embolden' Russian President Vladimir Putin to invade a NATO ally, which would precipitate "American troops fighting Russian troops. ".
The threat was not persuasive. Senate Republicans Block Biden Ukraine Aid Despite Warning. Senate Republicans channeled Elon Musk (G. F. why.), blocking Biden's $111 emergency supplemental package that would also include aid for Israel, humanitarian aid for Gaza, and a smattering of border funding.[/QUOTE]So your lesson out of this is Americans should not buy insurance because the government will rebuild everything for you?
I hope I can visit Ukraine for the victory of Russia day.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2875903]Each time the orcs suffer a major setback, the activity in here and other forums by the Kremlin Troll factory goes into overdrive. The more they post hateful posts in Ukrainian forums, the worse it tends to be going for the occupiers.
I'll remind everyone again, that no one is posting trolls in the Russian forum, but here as in the geographical location, Ukraine support is constantly under attack.[/QUOTE]Sigh. Orcs huh?
Here is one of the last honest reporters left commenting on the Ukraine war, Matt Taibbi.
According to one measure we spent over $75 billion between January 2022 and July 2023, just a shade under Russia's $81 billion military budget for 2022. In other words, just to keep this one storyline in Ukraine growing, we've had to basically match Russia's entire military budget.
That was never going to continue forever, and everyone knew it, except the handful of insane monsters in politics and media who pretended that the war in Ukraine was not a pure proxy conflict. It was obvious this moment of truth was coming even before the Hamas-Gaza situation changed the political dynamic at home. We knew it from the Vatican-style smoke signals that occasionally emanated from talking heads in the news, like NATO official Stian Jenssen, who sent heads reeling in September by admitting the alliance was no longer imagining a "complete Russian defeat," adding that Ukraine should instead contemplate a deal in which they "give up territory and get NATO membership in return."
Jenssen is chief of staff to NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg, to whom he had to apologize publicly for suggesting this territory-for-peace trade every sane person knows is the likely ending of this awful bloody farce. Stoltenberg nonetheless was still talking about "winning" even last week, but nobody is going to "win" in this war. There's only bloodshed and a big and fat, but ultimately temporary, feeding frenzy for Lockheed, General Dynamics, Raytheon and the rest of Lloyd Austin's buddies. If our leaders were straight with us at the start of this thing, that's what they'the have asked: "Hey, can we risk nuclear war for a couple of years so taxpayers can fork over a couple hundred extra billion bucks worth of arms dealer bonuses?
The country of course would have said no, like they're saying no now, which is exactly why Biden and company didn't ask. Instead, they lied and lied, but now that the lying doesn't work anymore, they're trying the truth, not realizing it's a little late for that, and insulting as hell to boot. Is there a clue anywhere in the skulls of these people?
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2875229]
I told everyone on this forum that Russia would win and to write that down. [/QUOTE]They both lose. The only difference is the degree of loss.
To add some content (mostly omissions with some MIC sales pitch):
[URL]https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/04/ukraine-counteroffensive-stalled-russia-war-defenses/[/URL]
[URL]https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/04/ukraine-counteroffensive-us-planning-russia-war/[/URL]
By the way, do you know the difference between a Russian Roulette and an Ukrainian Roulette? (pun intended: in Russian 'roulette' also means any type of ground food product).
The players of the Ukrainian Roulette charge 5 rounds into the cylinder.
[QUOTE=AntonySun1996;2876223]They both lose. The only difference is the degree of loss.[/QUOTE]Correct, I will add everyone in the world has lost from this disaster. What a Mess and yet some want the killing to continue. Throwing money towards Ukraine will only prolong them getting their ass kicked and losing more lives / territory. Great job liberals.
Given the size, strength and budget of the Orc army vs Ukraine, the orcs are by no means kicking ass, in terms of lives lost, economic destruction and equipment losses, Russia is the one getting pummeled.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2876276]Correct, I will add everyone in the world has lost from this disaster. What a Mess and yet some want the killing to continue. Throwing money towards Ukraine will only prolong them getting their ass kicked and losing more lives / territory. Great job liberals.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=VinDici;2876456]Given the size, strength and budget of the Orc army vs Ukraine, the orcs are by no means kicking ass, in terms of lives lost, economic destruction and equipment losses, Russia is the one getting pummeled.[/QUOTE]You are so wrong, but when does the truth matter to a liberal.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2876456]Given the size, strength and budget of the Orc army vs Ukraine, the orcs are by no means kicking ass, in terms of lives lost, economic destruction and equipment losses, Russia is the one getting pummeled.[/QUOTE]You are like one of them University presidents, blind and dumb.
[QUOTE=Riina;2876530]You are like one of them University presidents, blind and dumb.[/QUOTE]One of what "University presidents" bullshit boy?
What exactly is he wrong about?
Your mighty, invincible, peerless army was supposed to have taken Kyiv by Feb 27,2022. Remember that?
Instead, the only country you have managed to defeat is your own.
The only people you have managed to enslave is your own.
Good job!
I've made a pretty solid claim, where is your evidence to the contrary?
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2876519]You are so wrong, but when does the truth matter to a liberal.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=AntonySun1996;2876223]They both lose. The only difference is the degree of loss.[/QUOTE]Russia will be able to survive this. Ukraine on the other hand will get totally wrecked and will become a dysfunctional rump state that will never join NATO or the EU. So what was the point of all this from Ukraine's perspective? Those are the questions that Zelensky will have to answer one day, why did he walk away from the peace talks in Istanbul in 2022 March. So many lives would not be lost today.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2876276]Correct, I will add everyone in the world has lost from this disaster. What a Mess and yet some want the killing to continue. Throwing money towards Ukraine will only prolong them getting their ass kicked and losing more lives / territory. Great job liberals.[/QUOTE]Exactly. More money or weapons won't change the outcome (a Russian victory). Just like the Himars, or the Atacms, or the F16's, or the Leopards, or the Storm Shadow didn't and won't (in case some fool is counting on the F16s to make a difference, whenever they arrive, they will quickly burn like those Leopards are burning). Etc etc. Etc. Time to make peace and end this senseless killing.
If you want peace, just ask the Occupiers to leave Ukraine and there will be peace, it's not rocket science.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2876694]Exactly. More money or weapons won't change the outcome (a Russian victory). Just like the Himars, or the Atacms, or the F16's, or the Leopards, or the Storm Shadow didn't and won't (in case some fool is counting on the F16s to make a difference, whenever they arrive, they will quickly burn like those Leopards are burning). Etc etc. Etc. Time to make peace and end this senseless killing.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2876577]One of what "University presidents" bullshit boy?
What exactly is he wrong about?
Your mighty, invincible, peerless army was supposed to have taken Kyiv by Feb 27,2022. Remember that?
Instead, the only country you have managed to defeat is your own.
The only people you have managed to enslave is your own.
Good job![/QUOTE]Xman when does the truth matter to you. This is what happens when you guys play with fire, this time you helped to ruin a country. Still no negotiation, what do you guys hope to accomplish.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2876699]If you want peace, just ask the Occupiers to leave Ukraine and there will be peace, it's not rocket science.[/QUOTE]What you are suggesting is Utopian and not realistic.
While you're at it, why don't you ask the Turks to leave Cyprus, or for the Israeli's to uproot all the settlers from the west bank, I could give you many more examples.
Ukraine will have to cede territory, they are not getting the 4 new territories or Crimea back. Everyone knows that. Time to accept reality and make peace. The longer this goes on, the more difficult it will get for Ukraine. That's the reality.
This is an interactive map of areas held by Russia and the Ukraine:
[URL]https://www.nzz.ch/english/ukraine-war-interactive-map-of-the-current-front-line-ld.1688087[/URL]
Open the web page in two browser windows. Leave one at the current date, 6-11 December, 2023. In the second window, take the date back to 17 November, 2022.
You'll see the two sides have been stalemated for over a year. Any change in the area occupied by Russia is imperceptible.
And how many combatants and civilians have been killed or injured during that period? Hundreds of thousands?
This will go on indefinitely, as long as the two sides have the will, the arms and the young men to continue. The West needs to put pressure on both countries to end the war. Ukraine should give up the idea it can return to pre-2014 borders. It won't happen, and in any event based on polling data the majority in the occupied areas (Crimea and Russian occupied Donbas) preferred to be affiliated with Russia instead of Ukraine before the recent hostilities broke out. Russia should accept the territorial integrity and independence of the rest of the Ukraine, and stop meddling in Ukrainian politics.
I'm not saying the West should pull the plug on aid to Ukraine. It should however push Ukraine to the negotiating table. Russia has been willing to talk for a while, although admittedly who knows if the Kremlin is sincere.
Something like what exists in Korea, a permanent cease fire along the current lines of control, would be much, much preferable to the current situation.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2876964] and in any event based on polling data the majority in the occupied areas (Crimea and Russian occupied Donbas) preferred to be affiliated with Russia instead of Ukraine before the recent hostilities broke out. Russia should accept the territorial integrity and independence of the rest of the Ukraine, and stop meddling in Ukrainian politics.[/QUOTE]Polling data from the occupiers can be discarded.
Russian as it is now, will never stop meddling in UA politics, they can't even stop meddling in US and EU politics.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2876964]
And how many combatants and civilians have been killed or injured during that period? Hundreds of thousands?
[/QUOTE]Until the last Ukrainian? I know that's sick, but it sounds like that's what the neocons, the NATO warmongers and Zelensky wants.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2876964]
This will go on indefinitely, as long as the two sides have the will, the arms and the young men to continue.[/QUOTE]Sooner rather than later, Ukraine will run out of men to put on the front line. Then what? They are already sending teenagers and old men. What's next? Women? Horrific.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2876964] The West needs to put pressure on both countries to end the war. Ukraine should give up the idea it can return to pre-2014 borders. It won't happen, and in any event based on polling data the majority in the occupied areas (Crimea and Russian occupied Donbas) preferred to be affiliated with Russia instead of Ukraine before the recent hostilities broke out. Russia should accept the territorial integrity and independence of the rest of the Ukraine, and stop meddling in Ukrainian politics. [/QUOTE]I agree with all that. I don't think Putin wants anything more than the 4 new territories + Crimea as part of Russia. I really don't know what he has planned for Kharkov and Odessa. But Ukraine must be neutral also, that's what started this whole thing. And for the you. S to stop meddling in Ukrainian politics as well. I mean that's how this whole thing started in 2014 when the you. S removed the democratically elected leader.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2876964]
I'm not saying the West should pull the plug on aid to Ukraine. It should however push Ukraine to the negotiating table. Russia has been willing to talk for a while, although admittedly who knows if the Kremlin is sincere.
Something like what exists in Korea, a permanent cease fire along the current lines of control, would be much, much preferable to the current situation.[/QUOTE]That's how this will end, a ceasefire without a peace agreement, a frozen conflict, much like the Koreas.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2877047]Polling data from the occupiers can be discarded.
Russian as it is now, will never stop meddling in UA politics, they can't even stop meddling in US and EU politics.[/QUOTE]These are the facts. While Putin has been clear from the beginning that he believes Ukraine has no right to exist and should be absorbed into Russia. He wants it all. This is based on spurious historical analysis that I refuted on this thread back in the Spring of 2022. Though there's one big problem with internet discussions and debates, as there's a perceived need for a complete redo every time a new person enters the thread. LOL I'm not willing to invest my limited time that way, though here's some decent sources for those interested, while many more can be found in Google.
[URL]https://www.rochester.edu/newscenter/ukraine-history-fact-checking-putin-513812/[/URL]
This is a podcast you can access at the top right of the page.
[URL]https://globalaffairs.org/commentary-and-analysis/podcasts/debunking-putins-false-history-ukraine[/URL]
[QUOTE=VinDici;2876456]Given the size, strength and budget of the Orc army vs Ukraine, the orcs are by no means kicking ass, in terms of lives lost, economic destruction and equipment losses, Russia is the one getting pummeled.[/QUOTE]And the most convincing part of that if anyone in government shares document showing that line is bullshit not only will they be put in jail but their boss will be put in jail.
[URL]https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/dec/11/air-force-commander-removed-pentagon-leak-jack-teixeira[/URL]
He is accused of sharing classified military documents on Discord about Russia's invasion of Ukraine and other national security topics.
Authorities allege he began sharing classified documents in a Discord chat group, including typing out documents and sharing photographs, and continued to do so even after being warned by superiors about his activities in accessing intelligence information.
Teixeira allegedly bragged about the scope of information to which he had access, writing that what he had presented was "less than half of what's available".
"All of the shit I've told you guys I'm not supposed to," federal prosecutors have alleged he said.
[URL]https://www.zerohedge.com/military/alleged-discord-leakers-commanding-officer-removed-post[/URL]
One of the documents released by Teixeira was an intelligence assessment that predicted that Ukraine would fall "well short" of its goals in the counteroffensive. American officials attempted to downplay those findings in May before Kiev launched a counteroffensive the following month.
End of link.
It is amazing how much government shit is classified and why it is. In this case, it is pretty obvious documents were classified to keep the American people in the dark about how throwing money into the pit that is Ukraine is a complete waste.
Russia is the one getting pummeled? Yeah, sure.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2877048]Until the last Ukrainian? I know that's sick, but it sounds like that's what the neocons, the NATO warmongers and Zelensky wants. [/QUOTE]No NATO just wants Putin to stop prosecuting a genocidal war on Ukraine, murdering civilians with precision weapons, deporting their children to re-indoctrination camps, that kind of stuff. As to the Ukrainians, they want to fight to preserve their identity.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2877048]Sooner rather than later, Ukraine will run out of men to put on the front line. Then what? [/QUOTE]Sooner rather than later Putin will run out of ethnic canon fodder from the poorer regions while having fewer and fewer from other regions willing to fight. Then what? We've already seen one exodus of 200,000 young Russian men as they fled for the border, and there's a rebellion among Russian mothers and wives.
[URL]https://www.chathamhouse.org/2023/12/putin-faces-growing-threat-wives-and-mothers-mobilized-soldiers[/URL]
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2877048]They are already sending teenagers and old men. What's next? Women? Horrific. [/QUOTE]This is propaganda and easy to say in a monger forum. Prove it with a reliable source, and go ahead include Russian state media. You are either in the camp directly or a far right isolationist. There's actually not much difference between the two though. Teenage adults yes, "old men" no outside of volunteers. Ukraine currently has 688,000 active troops, 650,000 in reserve and a larger pool to tap into. But yea, it's easy to talk. Link us to your sources.
[URL]https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraines-military-balances-uneven-training-levels-after-year-of-war-2023-4[/URL]
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2877048]I don't think Putin wants anything more than the 4 new territories + Crimea as part of Russia. [/QUOTE]Your opinion and two dollars will buy you a cup of coffee. Putin has been very clear that he believes the Ukraine belongs to Russia, while he doesn't have any "new" territories. The occupations are illegal, while he ran from both Kyiv and Kharkiv with his tail between his legs and is on his heels in Kherson.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2877048]But Ukraine must be neutral also, that's what started this whole thing. [/QUOTE]What "started this whole thing" is Putin's imperialistic designs and decades long belly aching over the loss of the USSR, along with Ukraine's commitment to democracy which of course he sees as a threat. Also, before you go there, no promise against NATO expansion was ever made. That's another point here that has been covered at least a dozen times.
[URL]https://hls.harvard.edu/today/there-was-no-promise-not-to-enlarge-nato/[/URL]
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2877048]And for the you. S to stop meddling in Ukrainian politics as well. I mean that's how this whole thing started in 2014 when the you. S removed the democratically elected leader. [/QUOTE]Hogwash, while this has been refuted at least a dozen times on this thread over the last 18 months. The democratically elected national legislature removed a corrupt Russian puppet leader, and all within the provisions of the Ukrainian constitution. NEXT.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2877048]That's how this will end, a ceasefire without a peace agreement, a frozen conflict, much like the Koreas.[/QUOTE]You know what they say about opinions, while that's all your prediction is. But the two situations are different on many grounds, primarily because we are talking about Russia, a country that habitually breaks agreements while they have expansionist ambitions. Ukraine is fighting against genocide and to preserve their identity, and as long as they are willing to do so the west should support them.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2876276] Great job liberals.[/QUOTE]And how many times have you been presented with the fact that the majority of American conservative Republicans support aid to Ukraine? A dozen? That applies to both voters and lawmakers. But yea, turn it into a conservative versus liberal thing when you don't get your way. That's easy enough I suppose, though that false dichotomy has gotten pretty dated.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2877047]Polling data from the occupiers can be discarded.[/QUOTE]The polls actually weren't conducted by the occupiers, but did occur in occupied territory. Some were conducted by respected organizations like Gallup and Pew Research.
We've discussed Donbas before:
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2834153]Please see this article from 2019.
[URL]https://www.kyivpost.com/post/7557[/URL]
"Only 5.1 percent of people living in the Russia-controlled parts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions want Ukraine to regain control over the territories. Half (50.9 percent) want a union with Russia and another 13.4 percent said the region should accede to Russia with a "special status." For the whole of Donbas, including its Ukraine-controlled areas, 49.6 percent want it to become part of Russia, with another 13.3 percent choosing such a scenario with a "special status" for Donbas. A fifth (19.2 percent) see Donbas as part of Ukraine."
So apparently 50.9% wanted to live in a Russian oblast, and another 13.4% in something like a Russian territory (e.g. like Puerto Rico in the USA). Only 5.1% wanted to live in a Ukrainian controlled oblast. [/QUOTE]See here for info about polls in Crimea.
[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum[/URL]
The pre-2014 polls are a mixed bag, but post referendum polls indicate a preference for being a part of Russia.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2877047]Russian as it is now, will never stop meddling in UA politics, they can't even stop meddling in US and EU politics.[/QUOTE]Good point. I believe you're probably right.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2877220]The polls actually weren't conducted by the occupiers, but did occur in occupied territory. Some were conducted by respected organizations like Gallup and Pew Research.[/QUOTE]Please say you are kidding us. LOL Who cares who the "respected organizations" are, as the polls were still conducted under occupation and under a cloud of intimidation.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2877220] See here for info about polls in Crimea.
[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum[/URL]
The pre-2014 polls are a mixed bag, but post referendum polls indicate a preference for being a part of Russia.[/QUOTE]Wikipedia isn't a source but a bathroom wall. Anyone can post content there, and though moderated, this can be sketchy and slow to come. The Tartar question is often ignored. These favor Ukraine, and have often been intimidated since Stalin purged them from Crimea in the early 1940's. But regardless, anyone in Crimea or the Donbass that wants to be part of Russia doesn't have far to travel. Irrespective of specious polls and votes at gunpoint, the annexations remain illegal.
[URL]https://www.eeas.europa.eu/node/112989_fr[/URL]
Arm wrestling matches do not end in a draw or tie. Same here: all the goals of the SMO are going to be accomplished. Crimea is a wonderful region, highly recommended to visit June to September.
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2877202]No NATO just wants Putin to stop prosecuting a genocidal war on Ukraine, murdering civilians with precision weapons, deporting their children to re-indoctrination camps, that kind of stuff. As to the Ukrainians, they want to fight to preserve their identity.[/QUOTE]NATO already threw Ukraine under the bus. Ukraine will never join NATO. The goal of NATO is to make Russia weak and to bleed. Lyold Austin said this over a year ago. He didn't say anything about Ukraine winning because he and the rest of NATO know that is not possible. May those NATO monsters rot in eternal hell for taking Ukraine down the primrose path.
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2877202]
Sooner rather than later Putin will run out of ethnic canon fodder from the poorer regions while having fewer and fewer from other regions willing to fight. Then what? We've already seen one exodus of 200,000 young Russian men as they fled for the border, and there's a rebellion among Russian mothers and wives.
[URL]https://www.chathamhouse.org/2023/12/putin-faces-growing-threat-wives-and-mothers-mobilized-soldiers[/URL]
[/QUOTE]This is a war of attrition. Don't you know how that works? Russia has over 3 x the population of Ukraine, probably more. Ukraine will run out of men and ammo much quicker than the Russians. That's reason enough to say the Russians will win.
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2877202]
This is propaganda and easy to say in a monger forum. Prove it with a reliable source, and go ahead include Russian state media. You are either in the camp directly or a far right isolationist. There's actually not much difference between the two though. Teenage adults yes, "old men" no outside of volunteers. Ukraine currently has 688,000 active troops, 650,000 in reserve and a larger pool to tap into. But yea, it's easy to talk. Link us to your sources.
[URL]https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraines-military-balances-uneven-training-levels-after-year-of-war-2023-4[/URL]
[/QUOTE]Alright man, believe what you want.
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2877202]
Your opinion and two dollars will buy you a cup of coffee. Putin has been very clear that he believes the Ukraine belongs to Russia, while he doesn't have any "new" territories. The occupations are illegal, while he ran from both Kyiv and Kharkiv with his tail between his legs and is on his heels in Kherson.
What "started this whole thing" is Putin's imperialistic designs and decades long belly aching over the loss of the USSR, along with Ukraine's commitment to democracy which of course he sees as a threat. Also, before you go there, no promise against NATO expansion was ever made. That's another point here that has been covered at least a dozen times.
[URL]https://hls.harvard.edu/today/there-was-no-promise-not-to-enlarge-nato/[/URL]
[/QUOTE]When did Putin say he beleives Ukraine belongs to Russia? If he wanted to take over Ukraine, 2014 would've been a much better time, when Ukraine military was weak. Instead he tried 2 Minsk accords. There's no evidence to support what you just said. You live in a fantasy world if you're not willing to accept that this is all about NATO expansion (root cause). Even the PM of Georgia said the same thing a while back.
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2877202]
Hogwash, while this has been refuted at least a dozen times on this thread over the last 18 months. The democratically elected national legislature removed a corrupt Russian puppet leader, and all within the provisions of the Ukrainian constitution. NEXT.
You know what they say about opinions, while that's all your prediction is. But the two situations are different on many grounds, primarily because we are talking about Russia, a country that habitually breaks agreements while they have expansionist ambitions. Ukraine is fighting against genocide and to preserve their identity, and as long as they are willing to do so the west should support them.[/QUOTE]Yeah, support them until the last Ukrainian. Or you could call for a ceasefire. You want the former. What a horrific tragedy that could've easily been avoided. God bless the Ukrainian people.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2877368] Russia has over 3 x the population of Ukraine, probably more. Ukraine will run out of men and ammo much quicker than the Russians. That's reason enough to say the Russians will win.
[/QUOTE]Unfortunately, you are wright. Look, what's actually going on in the USA right now. Will the USA still "help"next year? And look at all the help from Germany. Allthough a German citizen, I have to
be ashamed regarding the amount of "help"the German government provided. Already last year I outed my opinion, that Germany (and the West?)
want to bleed out the Ukraine, being so fast in providing "support'. Germany started with a few thousand helmets. Wow! At least, not from the Wehrmacht. And then the old, half (or completely?) rotten
?) rotten old anti-tank weapons from the former East German Army, thus antique Russian stuff. The USA, although, kept face. Until now.
The West had a lot of sweet talks, mainly. And a few weapons. Until now. How could the West expect a successful offensive of the UA, without air superiotity? Without modern fighter aircrafts?
And now, even in case F16 will be sent, finally. Still good UA-pilots available? Or did they shed their blood already flying old MIG-29 and SU-27 ?
This writes somebody, who lived, worked and hunted 5 years in the RF. And 5 years in Nikolaev, Odessa and Cherson. And was partying multiple times in Kazantip, Crimea.
Only chance for the UA to win: 5 Billion Dollar bounty for Putler.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2877048]Sooner rather than later, Ukraine will run out of men to put on the front line. Then what? They are already sending teenagers and old men. What's next? Women? Horrific.[/QUOTE]"The average Ukrainian soldier is 43-years-old, according to Time Magazine.
When the war began in February 2022, the average Ukrainian soldier was between 30 and 35 years old.
Ukraine is battling mounting manpower problems more than 20 months into the war. ".
[URL]https://www.businessinsider.com/average-age-ukrainian-soldier-43-amid-personnel-problems-2023-11#text=The%20 average%20 age%20 of%20 Ukrainian, country%20 grapples%20 with%20 personnel%20 problems&text=The%20 average%20 Ukrainian%20 soldier%20 is,30%20 and%2035%20 years%20 old[/URL].
Here is the latest piece from Taibbi:
In a bold piece of agitprop, "USA Officials" blame Ukraine's bleak battlefield situation on. Pentagon leaker Jack Teixeira?
If Teixeira hadn't let slip that officials were freaking out in private about Ukraine's prospects, members of Congress might not have been emboldened to filibuster Biden's spending bill as they did last week. Therefore, learning the truth was bad, and we can blame the leaks, not the factory-produced river of hogwash dumped on the world for the last 22 months, for the dilemma now facing Biden and Ukraine. How's that for Beltway bull-slinging?
Now that the contracting orgy has stopped, however, pucker season is on. Volodymyr Zelensky was in DC Tuesday night and looked like he was doing a take for John Wick 9 when he walked out of Congress empty-handed. If that face is any indication, phones will start ringing all over soon, as unnamed "officials" give seething insider takes on how things got so FUBAR.
If the White House is already sending up trial balloons like this Post story, that means the real blame game is about to start. Zelensky came here for $61 billion, got sent home with a handshake and $175 million from Biden's Presidential Drawdown Authority, and left with gritted teeth and the look of a man planning an as told to Kitty Kelley memoir. Unless this thing gets turned around, and it still could, we're about to learn some things. Was there ever a plan? What promises were made? From our side, how much of this was a pork party, really? If a little leak was intolerable, imagine how the whole truth would go over.
End of that link.
Then you have this story, [URL]https://www.racket.news/p/lying-was-the-only-plan-biden-us?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email[/URL].
What gets me is how many people, especially Democrats, fall for this bullshit like this below.
These "savior weapons" pieces were cranked out like clockwork, usually just ahead of Ukraine-related appropriations decisions so "the legislator's already hearing about it, the narrative's already created," as one PR exec put it to me. Not dozens, but hundreds of sunny predictions were rolled out about how Ukraine would be steaming toward Moscow if they could just get more Patriot or Javelin or Stinger missiles or Leopard tanks (They "instill great fear," said Radio Free Europe!) or 155 mm artillery shells or Fortem F700 drones or whatever else.
Advertorials of this type came mostly in two formats: in-field soldier endorsements ("The more of them we get the better!" an unnamed Ukrainian gushed to CBS, about cluster munitions).
In the mean time, Texiera was attacked because he let the truth slip about what the experts were saying in private that went against the official narrative. We saw the EXACT same thing with Covid. The experts had one set narrative in public where they were all knowing and in private were up in arms, scared shitless, and really knew nothing.
I joked that we should all be thankful for Putin as he cured the world of Covid and apparently I was not the only one. We are in the repeat phase of wash, rinse, repeat. And for that, we go back to Taibbi talking to a colleague.
Walter Kirn: Right. I mean, because to use the current thing term, what tends to happen at the end of some big initiative that isn't working is that a new frightening foe presents itself and we all shift our attention. I mean, the joke was Ukraine ended Covid and it did. So what's going to-.
Matt Taibbi: Yeah, Hamas ended Ukraine.
Walter Kirn: Yeah, Hamas ended Ukraine. Exactly. And so that seems to be the new strategy, or just let's not call it a conscious strategy, the new reality. Our attention is turned intensely toward new challenges when old disappointments evolve. And rather than let us sit around and be disappointed and have blame and be in this big muddle of bad feeling, I have a feeling, at least at the media level, if not the real one, we're going to be pointed towards something else. The coming dictatorship of Donald Trump.
You would think the smugness of Democrats and always being wrong when listening to the "experts" who are just paid hacks with degrees or experience would end now but is has not. The smugness on Covid and Ukraine will now be replaced with smugness with regards to Trump and Hamas. To be a Democrat these days requires you to have a memory the length of your average gnat.
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2879220]Here is the latest piece from Taibbi:
In a bold piece of agitprop, "USA Officials" blame Ukraine's bleak battlefield situation on. Pentagon leaker Jack Teixeira?
If Teixeira hadn't let slip that officials were freaking out in private about Ukraine's prospects, members of Congress might not have been emboldened to filibuster Biden's spending bill as they did last week. Therefore, learning the truth was bad, and we can blame the leaks, not the factory-produced river of hogwash dumped on the world for the last 22 months, for the dilemma now facing Biden and Ukraine. How's that for Beltway bull-slinging?.[/QUOTE]Great post! I Hope Pres. Z days are numbered, you want to talk about war crimes, he should be on the top of the list. Hopefully they charge him with War Crimes. What joke. There will be nothing left. Biden, Pres. Z. And some Euros have no clue and have ruined Ukraine. It is time to wave the White Flag and save what they can, but I am afraid they are going keep going and Russia will have to take Pres. Z and his government out.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2877478]"The average Ukrainian soldier is 43-years-old, according to Time Magazine.
When the war began in February 2022, the average Ukrainian soldier was between 30 and 35 years old.
Ukraine is battling mounting manpower problems more than 20 months into the war. ".
[URL]https://www.businessinsider.com/average-age-ukrainian-soldier-43-amid-personnel-problems-2023-11#text=The%20 average%20 age%20 of%20 Ukrainian, country%20 grapples%20 with%20 personnel%20 problems&text=The%20 average%20 Ukrainian%20 soldier%20 is,30%20 and%2035%20 years%20 old[/URL].[/QUOTE]You forgot to mention they are sending Females to the front now, that is how bad it is for Ukraine, yet some continue to want the war to continue.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2879289]You forgot to mention they are sending Females to the front now, that is how bad it is for Ukraine, yet some continue to want the war to continue.[/QUOTE]I see lots of young Ukrainian men in my home city and they are quality dudes certain to be successful. It's hard to believe governments want to destroy them.
[URL]https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/23/world/europe/putin-russia-ukraine-war-cease-fire.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare[/URL]
I pray this goes somewhere. There’s got to be a way to stop the killing and insure the security of Ukraine.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2880194][URL]https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/23/world/europe/putin-russia-ukraine-war-cease-fire.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare[/URL]
I pray this goes somewhere. Theres got to be a way to stop the killing and insure the security of Ukraine.[/QUOTE]How would a ceasefire ensure the security of Ukraine?
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2880231]How would a ceasefire ensure the security of Ukraine?[/QUOTE]In my humble opinion I think that is the viable option at this juncture. The only way Ukraine can ensure its security is to commit to no EU and no NATO membership and remove the current government. That is just the Red pill they need to take. When you live next to a superpower it is a hard reality that you have to succumb to the wishes of your bigger Brother. Look at Cuba, look at Mexico. Do you think Mexico will survive a day if it becomes a Russian Satellite state with Nukes planted in its territory? No.
[URL]https://tass.com/politics/1724847[/URL]
Russia's Chief of General Staff reports on Ukrainian failure, Russian rearmament.
According to the report, this year, the Russian military focused on repelling the Ukrainian counteroffensive, which planned to deprive Russia of the land corridor to Crimea.
MOSCOW, December 21. / TASS /. The Russian forces in the zone of the special military operation are engaged in active defense and constantly expand the zones of control in all directions, Chief of the General Staff Valery Gerasimov told a briefing for foreign military attaches.
Kiev has failed the much-hyped counteroffensive despite a huge western support, he added.
Standoff with US, NATO:
The hegemony of the United States and its allies is going to the past, but Washington wants to keep the "western-centric world order" at any price. NATO annually holds close to 40 exercises at Russian borders and all of them focus on the fight against Russia.
"Accelerated integration of Sweden and Finland into the alliance, the growing presence of NATO troops in Eastern Europe, Baltic and Black Sea regions, as well as the Arctic negatively affect the situation in Europe with prospects of increased confrontation. ".
Western support to Kiev:
The developments in Ukraine are a hybrid proxy war of the United States and its allies against the Russian Federation. Since February 2022, Kiev has received over 5. 2 thousand tanks and armored vehicles, close to 1. 5 thousand artillery guns and multiple launch rocket systems, 1. 3 thousand antiaircraft missile complexes, over 23 thousand antitank missile complexes, over a hundred airplanes and helicopters, and 23 thousand drones.
Close to 100,000 Ukrainian military were trained in the West. Besides, Ukraine received over 200 long-range cruise missiles.
Failed counteroffensive:
This year, the Russian military focused on repelling the Ukrainian counteroffensive, which planned to deprive Russia of the land corridor to Crimea.
"By early June, the enemy accumulated in the Zaporozhye direction an offensive force numbering up to 50 battalions, over 230 tanks and over a thousand armored vehicles. A half of them were modern foreign-made vehicles. The force was later increased to 80 battalions. ".
"The enemy planned to block Melitopol in 15 days and advance to the Sea of Azov, Mariupol and the border with Crimea. ".
Ukraine sustained huge losses, but could advance insignificantly and failed to break through the Russian tactical defense. In half a year, Ukraine lost in all directions close to 160 thousand men, over 3,000 tanks and armored vehicles, nearly 150 airplanes and helicopters.
"The widely advertised counteroffensive by Ukraine and NATO allies has failed. ".
Current situation:
"The Russian forces are successfully engaged in active defense, hold the positions along the whole contact line, and constantly expand the areas of control in all directions. The enemy is constantly subject to strikes that deny it a chance to move forward. ".
The Russian air defense has destroyed over 6,300 aerial targets, including over 4,600 drones since the beginning of the year.
The Russian military delivered strikes with long-range precision weapons at 1,500 objects, including defense enterprises and critically important facilities. "One of the results of the strikes was a considerable decrease in the output of the Ukrainian military-industrial complex. ".
Ukrainian terrorism:
As Ukraine fails to achieve success on the battlefield, it resorts to terrorist methods. In the DPR, over 4,700 civilians, including 140 children, have been killed since February 2022. Over 16 thousand residential houses and nearly 3,500 civilian infrastructure objects have been damaged or destroyed.
"Ukraine does not abandon attempts of nuclear terrorism and systematically launches unmanned aerial vehicles with explosives to the Zaporozhye NPP and the town of Energodar. ".
Military development:
The Ground Forces have formed two combined arms armies and 14 formations. The Aerospace Forces formed three formations.
The military received over 1,500 new and upgraded tanks, close to 3,000 armored vehicles, over 230 airplanes and helicopters and over 20,000 drones. Four submarines and eight warships joined the Navy.
Partnerships:
The Defense Ministry continues to develop military and military-technical cooperation with foreign military agencies. Over 600 important events have been implemented this year.
In particular, all-round strategic partnership is developed with China and India and all-round interaction is maintained with North Korea.
TAGS.
Military operation in Ukraine.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2880194]Theres got to be a way to stop the killing and insure the security of Ukraine.[/QUOTE]There was a way, but that ship sailed.
I guess the imminent arrival of F-16's prompted this influx of Z propaganda.
Just out of interest how are the planes from the invading army doing now that the new Ukrainian air defense has been deployed?
[QUOTE=VinDici;2880499]I guess the imminent arrival of F-16's prompted this influx of Z propaganda.
Just out of interest how are the planes from the invading army doing now that the new Ukrainian air defense has been deployed?[/QUOTE]From what I've gathered, they've lost 3 today. At least one, though, was downed by a friendly.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2880231]How would a ceasefire ensure the security of Ukraine?[/QUOTE]I said "insure", not "ensure. " That was poor word choice on my part. I should have written something like "provides reasonable security to Ukraine.
The best ending would be like what Zenduka suggests. Ukraine ends up like Switzerland or Austria, peaceful and prosperous. But as Rina said, that ship has most likely sailed. Absent a change in Russian leadership, Ukraine would indeed have to swallow Zenduka's Red Pill, and that's very unlikely.
An ending like Korea is more likely, only without the presence of NATO troops in Ukraine -- both countries armed to the teeth, but not killing each others young men (and old men and women and children) any longer. This is the best realistic solution. The sooner there's a ceasefire the better -- take my challenge with the interactive map in post #2387 -- neither side has made any progress in over a year.
There's going to have to be a radical change in political will in Russia or the West for either side to win. And that change is more likely to come from the west, by reducing aid to Ukraine. As to Russia, yes, a change of leadership there could result in a Ukrainian victory. But on the other hand, Russia has 6,000 nukes and can end this anytime it wants.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2880709]I said "insure", not "ensure. " That was poor word choice on my part. I should have written something like "provides reasonable security to Ukraine.
The best ending would be like what Zenduka suggests. Ukraine ends up like Switzerland or Austria, peaceful and prosperous. But as Rina said, that ship has most likely sailed. Absent a change in Russian leadership, Ukraine would indeed have to swallow Zenduka's Red Pill, and that's very unlikely.
An ending like Korea is more likely, only without the presence of NATO troops in Ukraine -- both countries armed to the teeth, but not killing each others young men (and old men and women and children) any longer. This is the best realistic solution. The sooner there's a ceasefire the better -- take my challenge with the interactive map in post #2387 -- neither side has made any progress in over a year..[/QUOTE]Two of my replies to you have been lost somewhere in the forum abyss, and I'm not feeling like wasting another 20 minutes replicating them. But here are the reasons why you're wrong on almost all counts.
1. Ukraine would be crazy to trust Russia about anything. I don't expect you to agree with me. I actually understand why you wouldn't -- it really boggles the mind to grasp Russia's historic disregard for any treaties and agreements it deems "unfair" and "inconvenient". Hint: it didn't start with Putin or Stalin or even Lenin. That's how Russia has rolled for centuries.
2. Ending like Korea is completely unrealistic. That ceasefire is based upon the might of the United States. There is no way in hell a similar arrangement is even remotely possible in Ukraine.
4. Are these people fanatics who are prepared to launch the nuclear apocalypses (that will end Russia too)? No, these people are not fanatics. They're corrupt, wealthier than god, swindlers; they love their yachts, jets and mansions; and they have no desire to commit a murder-suicide of the world. That's not even mentioning their families and their hoars who're all living here, in the West. Who exactly are they going to bomb? I'm more scared of a drunken accident or misunderstanding in this high-pitched environment.
5. Russia is a giant with feet of clay. Its war effort has already cannibalized the economy, and all Putin's posturing and saber-rattling is just smoke and mirrors. Which are the only two products Russia truly excels in.
[QUOTE=Zenduka1;2880265]In my humble opinion I think that is the viable option at this juncture. The only way Ukraine can ensure its security is to commit to no EU and no NATO membership and remove the current government. That is just the Red pill they need to take. When you live next to a superpower it is a hard reality that you have to succumb to the wishes of your bigger Brother. Look at Cuba, look at Mexico. Do you think Mexico will survive a day if it becomes a Russian Satellite state with Nukes planted in its territory? No.[/QUOTE]This is a brilliant post and spot on. I am shocked that people do not understand this very simple thing. Russia, whether you like it or not, is a great power. Great powers have their red lines. Ukraine joining NATO was Russia's red line and they acted. I'm not justifying it. But look at what the American's did when the Soviets placed missiles in Cuba. What would the Americans do if China placed missiles in Mexico. Looking back at it, was neutrality so bad for Ukraine? They will never ever join NATO. And look at Ukraine now. A destroyed nation that will forever be a dysfunctional rump state thanks to NATO and the warmongers, may the rot in hell.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2880499]I guess the imminent arrival of F-16's prompted this influx of Z propaganda.
Just out of interest how are the planes from the invading army doing now that the new Ukrainian air defense has been deployed?[/QUOTE]I can't believe people are this gullible. The F16's will make no difference whatsoever, just like they Leopards didn't, just like the storm shadows didn't, just like the ATACMS didn't. I could go on and on. The F16's when they arrive will be quickly shot down and they will burn.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2881293]Two of my replies to you have been lost somewhere in the forum abyss, and I'm not feeling like wasting another 20 minutes replicating them. But here are the reasons why you're wrong on almost all counts.
1. Ukraine would be crazy to trust Russia about anything. I don't expect you to agree with me. I actually understand why you wouldn't -- it really boggles the mind to grasp Russia's historic disregard for any treaties and agreements it deems "unfair" and "inconvenient". Hint: it didn't start with Putin or Stalin or even Lenin. That's how Russia has rolled for centuries.
2. Ending like Korea is completely unrealistic. That ceasefire is based upon the might of the United States. There is no way in hell a similar arrangement is even remotely possible in Ukraine.
4. Are these people fanatics who are prepared to launch the nuclear apocalypses (that will end Russia too)? No, these people are not fanatics. They're corrupt, wealthier than god, swindlers; they love their yachts, jets and mansions; and they have no desire to commit a murder-suicide of the world. That's not even mentioning their families and their hoars who're all living here, in the West. Who exactly are they going to bomb? I'm more scared of a drunken accident or misunderstanding in this high-pitched environment.
5. Russia is a giant with feet of clay. Its war effort has already cannibalized the economy, and all Putin's posturing and saber-rattling is just smoke and mirrors. Which are the only two products Russia truly excels in.[/QUOTE]Do a search on username Xpartan for Tiny12 and you'll find them all. We were arguing about this 7 months ago, before Paulie ran me off, and neither Ukraine nor Russia had gained any territory in the 6 months prior to that. The battle lines are still stuck where they were over a year ago. And maybe a couple of hundred thousand more people have been killed or maimed.
You gentlemen perennially believe Ukraine is on the cusp of a victory. Prigozhin is going to overthrow Putin. Ukraine's counteroffensive is pushing out the Russians. The Ukrainians will kick ass with the F16's. Russia's economy is about to fall apart. Well it ain't happening. The two sides will just keep on slugging it out, killing each other and making life a lot more difficult for the Ukrainians.
If you believe the Russians are rational, not fanatics, why wouldn't they be content to sit on Crimea and the area they currently occupy in Donbas after a ceasefire? The invasion of Ukraine is Russia's biggest military misadventure in over 100 years, Afghanistan included. The Ukrainians have shown they have the will and the ability to resist, and Putin apparently is looking for a face saving way out. Europe and the USA should encourage the Ukrainians to put an end to this, instead of contributing to their fantasy that they can regain all territory lost since 2014. The majority of people in the area occupied by Russia would prefer to be affiliated with Russia instead of Ukraine anyway.
[QUOTE=Zenduka1;2880265]In my humble opinion I think that is the viable option at this juncture. The only way Ukraine can ensure its security is to commit to no EU and no NATO membership and remove the current government. That is just the Red pill they need to take. When you live next to a superpower it is a hard reality that you have to succumb to the wishes of your bigger Brother. Look at Cuba, look at Mexico. Do you think Mexico will survive a day if it becomes a Russian Satellite state with Nukes planted in its territory? No.[/QUOTE]I need to start giving compliments as often as I tell people they are wrong. Like Blood Red said, this is a great realistic post, and I totally agree with everything you wrote.
[QUOTE=Zenduka1;2880265]In my humble opinion I think that is the viable option at this juncture. The only way Ukraine can ensure its security is to commit to no EU and no NATO membership and remove the current government. That is just the Red pill they need to take. When you live next to a superpower it is a hard reality that you have to succumb to the wishes of your bigger Brother. Look at Cuba, look at Mexico. Do you think Mexico will survive a day if it becomes a Russian Satellite state with Nukes planted in its territory? No.[/QUOTE]I don't know who you work for or how you are being paid but, frankly, you are disseminating Kremlin propaganda. Let me remind you that in 1994 Russia signed a treaty with Ukraine to:
1 Respect the signatory's independence and sovereignty in the existing borders (in accordance with the principles of the...
2 Refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of the signatories to the memorandum, and undertake that none of their weapons will ever be used against these countries, except in cases of self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations...
3 Refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine, the Republic of Belarus and Kazakhstan of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.
et cetera
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2881503]Do a search on username Xpartan for Tiny12 and you'll find them all. [/QUOTE]Nope, not there.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2881503]You gentlemen perennially believe Ukraine is on the cusp of a victory. Prigozhin is going to overthrow Putin. Ukraine's counteroffensive is pushing out the Russians. The Ukrainians will kick ass with the F16's. Russia's economy is about to fall apart. Well it ain't happening. The two sides will just keep on slugging it out, killing each other and making life a lot more difficult for the Ukrainians. [/QUOTE]Well, aside from Russia's economy falling apart, which I do insist is true, I don't know what "gentlemen" you're referring to. But your kind concern for Ukrainians is noted. Not that you're in good company, though, as every Kremlin troll in this thread is hurting for the wellbeing of Ukrainians. With friends like you fellas, who needs enemies?
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2881503]If you believe the Russians are rational[/QUOTE]If they were rational, they wouldn't a) attack; b) attack a 40-million strong country with 100,000 troops; c) attack expecting that the populace that hates their guts would greet them with flowers.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2881503]why wouldn't they be content to sit on Crimea and the area they currently occupy in Donbas after a ceasefire? [/QUOTE]Why weren't they?
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2881503]Putin apparently is looking for a face saving way out. [/QUOTE]For now. The moment he gains strength, however, he'll use the currently occupied territories as a springboard to attack again. And it'll be 100 times worse.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2881503]Europe and the USA should encourage the Ukrainians to put an end to this, instead of contributing to their fantasy that they can regain all territory lost since 2014. [/QUOTE]Again, I understand this notion coming from someone who doesn't know Russia and its turbulent history. Those of us who do know how "Russia rolls" can confidently predict that it will disintegrate. This war will be an empire killer, much worse than Afghanistan and 1992. When that happens, Ukraine will get its lands back and sooner than you can imagine.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2881503]The majority of people in the area occupied by Russia would prefer to be affiliated with Russia instead of Ukraine anyway. [/QUOTE]See, when you mindlessly repeat Kremlin propaganda like this, that just chips away at your credibility big time. Seriously.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2881608]I don't know who you work for or how you are being paid[/QUOTE]I do.
[URL]https://www.propublica.org/article/infamous-russian-troll-farm-appears-to-be-source-of-anti-ukraine-propaganda[/URL]
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2881608]Let me remind you that in 1994 Russia signed a treaty with Ukraine to:
1 Respect the signatory's independence and sovereignty in the existing borders (in accordance with the principles of the...
[/QUOTE]You are quoting the "Memorandum of Budapest". Problem is, that aggressive dictators, like Hitler or his pupil, Putler, do not care about contracts.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2877047]Polling data from the occupiers can be discarded.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2881653]
See, when you mindlessly repeat Kremlin propaganda like this, that just chips away at your credibility big time. Seriously.[/QUOTE]So Dzerkalo Tyzhnia, the Ukrainian Institute of the Future, Gallup, Pew Research, and Germany's GfK Group (the largest German market research company) are arms of the Kremlin?
OK, I'll spell it out for you. I've added info from links in the quotes below.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2834153]Please see this article from 2019.
[URL]https://www.kyivpost.com/post/7557[/URL]
Only 5.1 percent of people living in the Russia-controlled parts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions want Ukraine to regain control over the territories under the old terms, according to the findings of a joint survey conducted by the Ukrainian Institute of the Future and the Dzerkalo Tyzhnia. Ukraine weekly newspaper with the assistance of New Image Marketing Group, which were unveiled on Nov. 9, 2019....Half (50.9 percent) want a union with Russia and another 13.4 percent said the region should accede to Russia with a "special status." For the whole of Donbas, including its Ukraine-controlled areas, 49.6 percent want it to become part of Russia, with another 13.3 percent choosing such a scenario with a "special status" for Donbas. A fifth (19.2 percent) see Donbas as part of Ukraine."
So apparently 50.9% wanted to live in a Russian oblast, and another 13.4% in something like a Russian territory (e.g. like Puerto Rico in the USA). Only 5.1% wanted to live in a Ukrainian controlled oblast.
[/QUOTE]To be clear, the preceding is from the Kyiv Post, not Wikipedia. However, according to Wikipedia, Dzerkalo Tyzhnia, a Ukrainian newspaper, "is nonpartisan, while strongly liberal-leaning by Ukrainian Standards. Dzerkalo Tyzhnia is partially funded by Western non-governmental organizations. The paper is widely read and highly regarded among Ukrainian business and political elites which largely explains its political influence."
The web site is here. It's clearly pro-Ukrainian.
[URL]https://zn.ua/[/URL]
The Ukrainian Institute for the Future also clearly is pro-Ukrainian. Here's a link to their web site.
[URL]https://uifuture.org/[/URL]
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2877220]
See here for info about polls in Crimea.
[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum[/URL]
The pre-2014 polls are a mixed bag, but post referendum polls indicate a preference for being a part of Russia:
"The results of a survey by the U.S. government Broadcasting Board of Governors agency, conducted April 2129, 2014, showed that 83% of Crimeans felt that the results of the March 16 referendum on Crimea's status likely reflected the views of most people there, whereas this view is shared only by 30% in the rest of Ukraine.
Gallup conducted an immediate post-referendum survey of Ukraine and Crimea and published their results in April 2014. Gallup reported that, among the population of Crimea, 93.6% of ethnic Russians and 68.4% of ethnic Ukrainians believed the referendum result accurately represents the will of the Crimean people. Only 1.7% of ethnic Russians and 14.5% of ethnic Ukrainians living in Crimea thought that the referendum results didn't accurately reflect the views of the Crimean people. According to the Gallup's survey performed on April 2127, 82.8% of Crimean people consider the referendum results reflecting most Crimeans' views, and 73.9% of Crimeans say Crimea's becoming part of Russia will make life better for themselves and their families, while 5.5% disagree.
In May 2014, Washington, D.C., pollster Pew Research published results of a survey that encompassed Crimea, Ukraine, and Russia, in which it was reported that 88% of Crimeans believed the government of Kyiv should officially recognize the result of Crimea's referendum. According to survey carried out by Pew Research Center in April 2014, the majority of Crimean residents say they believed the referendum was free and fair (91%) and that the government in Kyiv ought to recognize the results of the vote (88%).
From January 16 22, 2015, Germany's GfK Group, with support from the Canada Fund for Local Initiatives, followed-up their pre-referendum survey of Crimeans' voting intention with a post-referendum survey about how satisfied Crimeans are with the outcome of their referendum. GfK's post-referendum survey found that 82% of Crimeans "Fully endorse" Crimea's referendum and return to Russia, while another 11% "Mostly endorse" it. According to a poll of the Crimeans by the Ukrainian branch of Germany's biggest market research organization, GfK, on January 1622, 2015: "Eighty-two percent of those polled said they fully supported Crimea's inclusion in Russia, and another 11 percent expressed partial support. Only 4 percent spoke out against it. ... Fifty-one percent reported their well-being had improved in the past year." Bloomberg's Leonid Bershidsky noted that "The calls were made on Jan. 1622 to people living in towns with a population of 20,000 or more, which probably led to the peninsula's native population, the Tatars, being underrepresented because many of them live in small villages. On the other hand, no calls were placed in Sevastopol, the most pro-Russian city in Crimea. Even with these limitations, it was the most representative independent poll taken on the peninsula since its annexation."[/QUOTE]
And if you come back with Paulie's refrain, that you can't trust anything in Wikipedia, it's going to be hard to take that seriously unless you go back to their references and show they're B.S.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2881521]I have seen some dumb post, but this is dumbest of all time. Why anyone would even consider playing around In country at war is bizarre and potentially a death sentence, but this is Ukraine, nothing surprises me.[/QUOTE]Other than occasionally lying about visiting certain Latin American cities, ones you demonstrated you know nothing about, you are here to bash Ukraine. And though it's true that vacationing in a city under threat of bombardment isn't wise while better choices exist, the Ukrainian people are doing exactly as they should when they go on with their lives as best as possible. While you are at it, mock the British who did the same during World War II. These are examples of courage that you certainly know nothing about.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2881608]I don't know who you work for or how you are being paid but, frankly, you are disseminating Kremlin propaganda. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2881653]I do.
[URL]https://www.propublica.org/article/infamous-russian-troll-farm-appears-to-be-source-of-anti-ukraine-propaganda[/URL][/QUOTE]Gentlemen, Zenduka is not employed by the Russian government. He's a Tijuana monger.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2881653]....I don't know what "gentlemen" you're referring to.... [/QUOTE]In this case Xpartan, I'm referring to you and Clayton. It's EXTREMELY unlikely you're executives of Lockheed Martin, Ukrainian intelligence operatives, neoconservative policy makers, or Dick Cheney. Rather you're gentlemen posting on ISG.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2882054]And if you come back with Paulie's refrain, that you can't trust anything in Wikipedia, it's going to be hard to take that seriously unless you go back to their references and show they're B.S.[/QUOTE]When you source Wikipedia you show yourself as someone who isn't serious. If you believe their references are good, then follow them, post those links and tell us why you think they are valid. You obviously have enough time on your hands. But it's all irrelevant anyway, as this was all hashed out long before you found this thread. Here's an excerpt from an earlier post from Jmsuttr. I'm personally not going in circles here, have better things to do, like retirement and travel. As to you, I recommend that you stop trying to defend the indefensible here and go back to your Libertarian thing in the Opinions Politics forum.
"As the USSR was in the process of dissolution, Ukraine's legislature declared independence TWICE, once in July of 1990 and then again in August of 1991.
[URL]https://www.npr.org/2022/02/12/10802...ukraine-russia[/URL]
And Russia OFFICIALLY recognized Ukrainian independence in August 1991.
[URL]https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...ime-story.html[/URL]
Ukraine followed up the declaration by holding a referendum vote that encompassed EVERY part of the territory that was universally recognized as the (now former) Ukraine Soviet Socialist Republic.
Here are the voting percentages, and you'll notice the first area on the list is Crimea, and further down you'll see the Donbas regions of Luhansk and Donetsk (both over 80 percent).
[URL]https://soviethistory.msu.edu/1991-2...e-declaration/[/URL]
If Russia had any territorial claims to make, or any objection to the referendum being held in Crimea, or the Donbas, that was the time to raise the issue. All the events of 1991 detailed above are conclusive evidence that Crimea, Donbas, and ALL the territory of the Ukraine SSR, were considered part of the newly independent Ukraine. And that fact was officially recognized by Russia, Ukraine itself, and the world at large.
But wait, there's more!
In 1997 two treaties were signed between Ukraine and Russia. One was the "Partition Treaty on the Status and Conditions of the Black Sea Fleet," and the other was the "Russian-Ukrainian Friendship Treaty" In neither of those treaties did Russia seek to exert a claim on Crimea or any other area.
Two additional points re 1997:
1. As part of the Friendship Treaty, BOTH nations recognized the inviolability of EXISTING borders. And those borders included Crimea + Donbas as part of Ukraine (see 1991).
2. As part of the Black Sea Fleet Status Treaty, by agreeing to pay Ukraine for the lease of the naval base at Sevastopol, Russia explicitly recognized it as sovereign Ukrainian territory. They, Russia, were leasing from the owner, Ukraine.
I could go on, but there's no need. From 1991 the world has recognized that Crimea is part of the territory of Ukraine, and the Donbas as well. Russia itself also recognized this fact from 1991 to 2014, when they decided to invade. But, aside from maybe a couple of rogue states, NO country in the world accepts Russia's annexation of Crimea OR the Donbas. Not China and, IIRC, not even Iran. " Jmsuttr.
After 9 years of war Russia still only controls 17% of Ukrainian territory. That's pretty sad for a super power, isn't it? While they are dealing with a neighbor, right next door.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2882075]Gentlemen, Zenduka is not employed by the Russian government. He's a Tijuana monger.[/QUOTE]With all his posts having appeared within the last week? I'd say "based" is a presumption, not fact.
Besides, why would it matter? Some members posting blatant Kremlin propaganda here play in OAE, others in South America. Those people aren't just voicing their opinions; they repeat and repost Russian lies.
Quite honestly, when someone posts pure BS bits of propaganda from a hostile government on a mongering forum, I just can't help wondering why.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2882054]So Dzerkalo Tyzhnia, the Ukrainian Institute of the Future, Gallup, Pew Research, and Germany's GfK Group (the largest German market research company) are arms of the Kremlin?
OK, I'll spell it out for you. I've added info from links in the quotes below.
To be clear, the preceding is from the Kyiv Post, not Wikipedia. However, according to Wikipedia, Dzerkalo Tyzhnia, a Ukrainian newspaper, "is nonpartisan, while strongly liberal-leaning by Ukrainian Standards. Dzerkalo Tyzhnia is partially funded by Western non-governmental organizations. The paper is widely read and highly regarded among Ukrainian business and political elites which largely explains its political influence."
The web site is here. It's clearly pro-Ukrainian.
[URL]https://zn.ua/[/URL]
The Ukrainian Institute for the Future also clearly is pro-Ukrainian. Here's a link to their web site.
[URL]https://uifuture.org/[/URL]
And if you come back with Paulie's refrain, that you can't trust anything in Wikipedia, it's going to be hard to take that seriously unless you go back to their references and show they're B.S.[/QUOTE]Every good lie has bits of truth mixed in. It is true that many ethnic Russians in Crimea and Donbas cheered on the occupiers when they orchestrated the coups in 2014. Being as it is, you're not dumb. You simply can't not understand that any polls and / or referendums that took place under the threat of violence from an occupying army can't be taken seriously. You'd have to be completely detached from reality to believe that any honest polling is possible under these circumstances.
In addition, today the Russians are occupying much more than Crimea and Donbas. How do you like the "referendums" in Kherson and Zaporozhia? Genuine, you think?
That's not even mentioning that even if there is a local majority anywhere in the world, they can't just decide to secede from the state because they feel like it. Ask the Kurds, the Catalans, the Basques, the Flemish, the Cypriots, the people of Nagorno-Karabakh and probably dozens of more separatist movements around the world or simply go back to Abe Lincoln, if you don't believe me.
Fortunately, I know you ain't dumb. You're just stubborn.
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2882076]When you source Wikipedia you show yourself as someone who isn't serious. If you believe their references are good, then follow them, post those links and tell us why you think they are valid. You obviously have enough time on your hands. But it's all irrelevant anyway, as this was all hashed out long before you found this thread. Here's an excerpt from an earlier post from Jmsuttr. I'm personally not going in circles here, have better things to do, like retirement and travel. As to you, I recommend that you stop trying to defend the indefensible here and go back to your Libertarian thing in the Opinions Politics forum.
"As the USSR was in the process of dissolution, Ukraine's legislature declared independence TWICE, once in July of 1990 and then again in August of 1991.
[URL]https://www.npr.org/2022/02/12/10802...ukraine-russia[/URL]
And Russia OFFICIALLY recognized Ukrainian independence in August 1991.
[URL]https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...ime-story.html[/URL]
Ukraine followed up the declaration by holding a referendum vote that encompassed EVERY part of the territory that was universally recognized as the (now former) Ukraine Soviet Socialist Republic.
Here are the voting percentages, and you'll notice the first area on the list is Crimea, and further down you'll see the Donbas regions of Luhansk and Donetsk (both over 80 percent).
[URL]https://soviethistory.msu.edu/1991-2...e-declaration/[/URL]
If Russia had any territorial claims to make, or any objection to the referendum being held in Crimea, or the Donbas, that was the time to raise the issue. All the events of 1991 detailed above are conclusive evidence that Crimea, Donbas, and ALL the territory of the Ukraine SSR, were considered part of the newly independent Ukraine. And that fact was officially recognized by Russia, Ukraine itself, and the world at large.
But wait, there's more!
In 1997 two treaties were signed between Ukraine and Russia. One was the "Partition Treaty on the Status and Conditions of the Black Sea Fleet," and the other was the "Russian-Ukrainian Friendship Treaty" In neither of those treaties did Russia seek to exert a claim on Crimea or any other area.
Two additional points re 1997:
1. As part of the Friendship Treaty, BOTH nations recognized the inviolability of EXISTING borders. And those borders included Crimea + Donbas as part of Ukraine (see 1991).
2. As part of the Black Sea Fleet Status Treaty, by agreeing to pay Ukraine for the lease of the naval base at Sevastopol, Russia explicitly recognized it as sovereign Ukrainian territory. They, Russia, were leasing from the owner, Ukraine.
I could go on, but there's no need. From 1991 the world has recognized that Crimea is part of the territory of Ukraine, and the Donbas as well. Russia itself also recognized this fact from 1991 to 2014, when they decided to invade. But, aside from maybe a couple of rogue states, NO country in the world accepts Russia's annexation of Crimea OR the Donbas. Not China and, IIRC, not even Iran. " Jmsuttr.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2882123]Every good lie has bits of truth mixed in. It is true that many ethnic Russians in Crimea and Donbas cheered on the occupiers when they orchestrated the coups in 2014. Being as it is, you're not dumb. You simply can't not understand that any polls and / or referendums that took place under the threat of violence from an occupying army can't be taken seriously. You'd have to be completely detached from reality to believe that any honest polling is possible under these circumstances.
In addition, today the Russians are occupying much more than Crimea and Donbas. How do you like the "referendums" in Kherson and Zaporozhia? Genuine, you think?
That's not even mentioning that even if there is a local majority anywhere in the world, they can't just decide to secede from the state because they feel like it. Ask the Kurds, the Catalans, the Basques, the Flemish, the Cypriots, the people of Nagorno-Karabakh and probably dozens of more separatist movements around the world or simply go back to Abe Lincoln, if you don't believe me.[/QUOTE]I never said and don't believe that Russia's takeover of Ukrainian territory was legal or justified or right. I believe the opposite. And yes, in the 1990's, and before Russian occupation, a smaller percentage of residents of Crimea and Donbas would have preferred to be part of Russia compared to the percentage in, say, 2019.
That doesn't change the reality of the here and now.
Hundreds of thousands of people are being killed or maimed while the two countries slug it out. Neither side will win. They'll both end up losers. So why not just stop fighting? The point is that the majority of the people who live in the occupied areas didn't even want to be part of Ukraine just prior to when hostilities broke out in 2022. If there's a ceasefire that becomes permanent, along existing battle lines, you're not creating a new Kurdistan or whatever.
You're not stupid either Xpartan. The Dzerkalo Tyzhnia / Ukrainian Institute of the Future poll was conducted in person, and there's no reason why telephone interviews conducted by Gallup, Pew Research, or GfK would reflect Russian government views instead of reality either.
You realize there's a big difference between a poll conducted by a Ukrainian or Western organization and a staged referendum. The fact that the voting percentages for the referendums in Kherson or Zaporozhia don't accurately reflect reality doesn't mean the same is true of polls.
Given that you're retired now Paulie, you should have plenty of time to try to debunk the poll results described in Wikipedia. Just go to the references. Don't expect me to do your work for you. Google translate is your friend. And your link purportedly showing that 80% of Donetsk and Luhansk wanted to be part of Ukraine in 1991 doesn't work. Nor do your NPR and Chicago Tribune links. It must be those Russian trolls, up to no good.
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2882077]After 9 years of war Russia still only controls 17% of Ukrainian territory. That's pretty sad for a super power, isn't it? While they are dealing with a neighbor, right next door.[/QUOTE]So why do you think the rest of Ukraine, Moldova, the Baltic Republics and Eastern Europe will be the next to fall if there's a ceasefire along the current lines of control?
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2882185]So why do you think the rest of Ukraine, Moldova, the Baltic Republics and Eastern Europe will be the next to fall if there's a ceasefire along the current lines of control?[/QUOTE]LOL. Exactly. On one hand the collective west says Putin and Russia have already lost the war because they didn't take Kiev, that the Russian army is incompetent, they are running out of ammo, morale is low, blah blah blah. But then they say Putin won't stop with Ukraine and will go for Poland and the Baltic states. Make up your mind please.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2882120]With all his posts having appeared within the last week? I'd say "based" is a presumption, not fact.
Besides, why would it matter? Some members posting blatant Kremlin propaganda here play in OAE, others in South America. Those people aren't just voicing their opinions; they repeat and repost Russian lies.[/QUOTE]The reason I call you guys Democratic douches is because of posts like this.
Do you understand the POV that our tax dollars could be better spent on health care, education, rebuilding Maui after the fires, on our infrastructure, securing the border, or keeping that money in our fucking pockets ETC versus this war in Ukraine where millions are dying and now is in a stalemate?
Do you understand that the domino theory, the rationale for fighting in Ukraine (first it is Ukraine, then Poland, then the rest of Europe) is the SAME fucking rationale that was used in Vietnam?
Do you get that when a person says that they think money could be better spent elsewhere or kept in their pocket, that does not mean they are spewing Russian propaganda or want to suck Putin's dick or want Ukraine over run?
Do you understand that President Obama said that the USA had no vital interests in Ukraine and was not going to defend it versus Russian aggression?
Because I do not think you understand any of it. I understand Democratic positions. I do not agree with most of them, but I understand them. I have no issue with people who vote Democrats whether it is based on feeling or fact.
What I DO have a problem with is the arrogant Democratic douche who swears up and down whenever anyone disagrees with them that person is stupid, ill informed, wants to suck Putin's dick and could give a fuck about dead Ukrainians and Democracy.
I saw this arrogance on display with Covid, with the vaccine, and now with Ukraine. What amazes me so much right now is you Democratic douches have literally picked out a guy who cannot walk right, who tried to shake the hand of a person who was not there, who cannot even remember what day of the week it is and say, "This guy knows what he is doing, and you are stupid if you do not trust him. ".
Do you think maybe, just maybe others have a point or are you 100% sure you are right about everything?
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2882182]I never said and don't believe that Russia's takeover of Ukrainian territory was legal or justified or right. I believe the opposite. And yes, in the 1990's, and before Russian occupation, a smaller percentage of residents of Crimea and Donbas would have preferred to be part of Russia compared to the percentage in, say, 2019.
That doesn't change the reality of the here and now.
Hundreds of thousands of people are being killed or maimed while the two countries slug it out. Neither side will win. They'll both end up losers. So why not just stop fighting? The point is that the majority of the people who live in the occupied areas didn't even want to be part of Ukraine just prior to when hostilities broke out in 2022. If there's a ceasefire that becomes permanent, along existing battle lines, you're not creating a new Kurdistan or whatever.[/QUOTE][B]1. For one thing it's their country.[/B] Who do you think you are to tell them to stop fighting for their homeland?
Oh, but you'll say, fine, let them fight on their own dime.
Well, no. Ukraine fighting is the best possible bargain for the West. Russia is already crippled both economically and militarily and as long as they're stuck in Ukraine, Europe and the world in whole are safER. Weakening Russia, making sure that it's not capable of launching new attacks against its neighbors is the smartest policy we should stick to.
Unfortunately, there are always tens of Chamberlains for every Churchill, so as long as cowards and isolationists are ruling the world, the future of this existential fight is unclear.
[B]2. Then there is your favorite argument about how Russia is rational and only wants to end this war.[/B]
Well, if you stopped ignoring what people familiar with Putin's biography and 23-year history of "Putinism" in Russia have told you many times over, you would have to drop this nonsense about making peace.
Or I don't know, maybe you too have this crazy, mind-blowing infatuation with Putin like most right-wingers. I mean, Trump did call him a genius, didn't he?
No, Putin is not rational. No, he's not pragmatic. For 20+ years he has been pillaging a huge country with impunity and almost no dissent from the obedient population. He's the richest man in the world. He had it so fucking good! So what does he do? He starts rebuilding the empire. He wages a full-scale war sending 100,000 troops to defeat a 40-million strong nation.
Now all his wealth will never matter. He will never be able to travel to any civilized country. He'll never be able to use his yachts, his jets and all his mansions in the West. In addition, he will very likely lose his country, presidency and his own head.
How rational is all that again?
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2882182]You're not stupid either Xpartan. The Dzerkalo Tyzhnia / Ukrainian Institute of the Future poll was conducted in person, and there's no reason why telephone interviews conducted by Gallup, Pew Research, or GfK would reflect Russian government views instead of reality either.
You realize there's a big difference between a poll conducted by a Ukrainian or Western organization and a staged referendum. The fact that the voting percentages for the referendums in Kherson or Zaporozhia don't accurately reflect reality doesn't mean the same is true of polls. [/QUOTE][B]3. Polls? In person? You have no idea what totalitarian regime means, do you? [/B] I don't care if they conducted their polls whispering -- people DO NOT tell what they think when it goes against the official occupiers policy.
And they sure as hell won't tell you the truth over the phone (ESPECIALLY over the phone).
Again, are there ethnic Russians who want to remain under Russia's control? Yes, absolutely!
Does the majority of people in Donbas and Crimea want to remain under Russia's control? We simply don't know. But we must assume that all the polls and surveys conducted after 2014 are complete and utter BS. Their referendums even more so.
And now, after they've been grabbing men off the streets of Donbas and Crimea cities, sending them to their deaths without any training and sufficient weapons -- you can be sure as hell that this support has evaporated.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2882185]So why do you think the rest of Ukraine, Moldova, the Baltic Republics and Eastern Europe will be the next to fall if there's a ceasefire along the current lines of control?[/QUOTE]I don't know what Paulie thinks, but here is my take. Moldova will definitely, fall. 100%. It's very weak and would be an easy prey for Russia.
The "rest of Ukraine" will very likely be attacked when Russia gets stronger. Of course, if Ukraine also gets stronger, Russia might not dare, just like they decided not to finish off Finland in 1940's. Finland, however, paid a heavy price for their independence, and I find it highly unlikely that Ukraine will be willing to pay it too.
The Baltics maybe. In the very least, the Russians will be poking and provoking until the NATO has to get involved. What happens then is everyone's guess.
Poland -- probably not. It has a relatively strong army even without the NATO umbrella.
Then there is Georgia that might also be attacked if their Parliament loses its pro-Russian majority.
In any case, undefeated Russia will be a major source of instability for Europe for decades to come, and tens of thousands more (at least) will have to die, just because you and Elvis would rather save a few rubles.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2883024][B]1. For one thing it's their country.[/B] Who do you think you are to tell them to stop fighting for their homeland?
Oh, but you'll say, fine, let them fight on their own dime.[/QUOTE]I think they should fight on [B]YOUR[/B] dime. If you want to contribute to Ukrainian defenses, out of your own pocket, or go to Ukraine and fight, you should be allowed to. I do not agree with the Biden administration and neoconservatives from both USA parties, and many European leaders, that we must provide Zelensky with a blank check to push Russia out of Ukraine, no matter how long it takes, how many lives will be lost, or how much money it costs. And to the Biden Administration's credit, maybe it is finally starting to come around.
[URL]https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/12/27/biden-endgame-ukraine-00133211[/URL]
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2883024]Well, no. Ukraine fighting is the best possible bargain for the West. Russia is already crippled both economically and militarily and as long as they're stuck in Ukraine, Europe and the world in whole are safER. Weakening Russia, making sure that it's not capable of launching new attacks against its neighbors is the smartest policy we should stick to.[/QUOTE]The last thing we need is another cold war. This is the way USA Foreign and defense policy has operated for many, many years, and it comes back to bite us. Look at Vietnam, Iraq, Iran, Zaire, Nicaragua -- there's a long list.
And Russia is not crippled economically or militarily. Its GDP, adjusted for inflation, is higher than it was before the invasion. They're ramping up production of armaments and have a much larger pool of young men than the Ukrainians that they can send to slaughter.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2883024]Unfortunately, there are always tens of Chamberlains for every Churchill, so as long as cowards and isolationists are ruling the world, the future of this existential fight is unclear.[/QUOTE]Well, it's a damn good thing that the "cowards and isolationists" as you put it (I'd use very different words) now rule the world. There hasn't been a World War III. Since 1980, very, very little territory has been forcibly annexed through warfare compared to past periods. And as to existential fights, I hope the politicians you admire don't get us into one. Nobody wins a nuclear war.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2883024][B]2. Then there is your favorite argument about how Russia is rational and only wants to end this war.[/B]
Well, if you stopped ignoring what people familiar with Putin's biography and 23-year history of "Putinism" in Russia have told you many times over, you would have to drop this nonsense about making peace.
Or I don't know, maybe you too have this crazy, mind-blowing infatuation with Putin like most right-wingers. I mean, Trump did call him a genius, didn't he?
No, Putin is not rational. No, he's not pragmatic. For 20+ years he has been pillaging a huge country with impunity and almost no dissent from the obedient population. He's the richest man in the world. He had it so fucking good! So what does he do? He starts rebuilding the empire. He wages a full-scale war sending 100,000 troops to defeat a 40-million strong nation.
Now all his wealth will never matter. He will never be able to travel to any civilized country. He'll never be able to use his yachts, his jets and all his mansions in the West. In addition, he will very likely lose his country, presidency and his own head.
How rational is all that again?[/QUOTE]Please make up your mind. I thought you were arguing that Putin would not use nuclear weapons because he prefers to stay alive and wealthy and powerful, that is, because he is rational.
Trump intuitively knew how to handle Putin, kiss his ass while being firm when it counts. The Nord Stream 2 pipeline wasn't going to go on stream while Trump was in power, and NATO countries upped their defense expenditures substantially.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2883024][B]3. Polls? In person? You have no idea what totalitarian regime means, do you? [/B] I don't care if they conducted their polls whispering -- people DO NOT tell what they think when it goes against the official occupiers policy.
And they sure as hell won't tell you the truth over the phone (ESPECIALLY over the phone).
Again, are there ethnic Russians who want to remain under Russia's control? Yes, absolutely!
Does the majority of people in Donbas and Crimea want to remain under Russia's control? We simply don't know. But we must assume that all the polls and surveys conducted after 2014 are complete and utter BS. Their referendums even more so.
And now, after they've been grabbing men off the streets of Donbas and Crimea cities, sending them to their deaths without any training and sufficient weapons -- you can be sure as hell that this support has evaporated.[/QUOTE]Actually in addition to the Donbas poll, the Gallup and Pew polls in Crimea were also person-to-person. I'm not sure about the others. Putin doesn't control unbiased pollsters in Russia, or Crimea or Donbas. If he did, we wouldn't be reading about very low Russian support for the war right now, around 12%. Or that 50% of Russians want the war to end in 2024. I imagine many young men in both countries who are being conscripted just want the war to end.
BTW, on the subject of polls, support for territorial concessions to Russia in Ukraine is way up from past levels, although still only around 20%. And will go up a lot more in years to come if this senseless carnage continues.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2883024]I don't know what Paulie thinks, but here is my take. Moldova will definitely, fall. 100%. It's very weak and would be an easy prey for Russia.
The "rest of Ukraine" will very likely be attacked when Russia gets stronger. Of course, if Ukraine also gets stronger, Russia might not dare, just like they decided not to finish off Finland in 1940's. Finland, however, paid a heavy price for their independence, and I find it highly unlikely that Ukraine will be willing to pay it too.
The Baltics maybe. In the very least, the Russians will be poking and provoking until the NATO has to get involved. What happens then is everyone's guess.
Poland -- probably not. It has a relatively strong army even without the NATO umbrella.
Then there is Georgia that might also be attacked if their Parliament loses its pro-Russian majority.[/QUOTE]Putin and Russia have most likely learned their lesson. They will continue to try to promote pro-Russian governments in Georgia, Moldova, and for that matter the USA. Any military incursion in a non-FSU country is very unlikely.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2883024]In any case, undefeated Russia will be a major source of instability for Europe for decades to come, and tens of thousands more (at least) will have to die, just because you and Elvis would rather save a few rubles.[/QUOTE]Come on Xpartan. You think Elvis and I have anything to do with USA Support or lack thereof for Ukraine? Blame the politicians, not us.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2883190]I think they should fight on ... USA Support or lack thereof for Ukraine? Blame the politicians, not us.[/QUOTE]So, what is the outcome you desire for the current war? Mine is that the 1991, internationally recognized and guaranteed, borders should be restored.
Very sad what happened to the American journalist in Ukraine and very disappointing the American response to his imprisonment (Nothing). Fighting for democracy, what a joke.
[QUOTE=Riina;2887795]Very sad what happened to the American journalist in Ukraine and very disappointing the American response to his imprisonment (Nothing). Fighting for democracy, what a joke.[/QUOTE]I assume you mean youtuber Gonzalo Lira. Better to name the person so people can look up the whole story, rather than this misleading propaganda style phrasing.
I hear that the Russian Duma is passing a new law allowing the state to steal the property of anyone who has been critical of Russia's invasion and war on Ukraine. What do you think about this Riina?
Hi fellow Mongers.
I'm not new but I was out fot five years due to car accident and time after wasn't time for mongering but right now I'm backing at the scene.
Iv read forum threads but didn't find what I'm looking for. And I'm looking for Ukrainian sites where you can meet WG's. I'm planing to visit Love and Kiev in next two week on business trip (yews need do business with Ukraina to maintain cash flow in Ukraina) so I plan to meet some cute girls but rather visit clubs I prefer meet with some WG's or some independent WG's.
If you can help I will be grateful for tips.
Regards.
Jacher.
[QUOTE=Riina;2887795]Very sad what happened to the American journalist in Ukraine and very disappointing the American response to his imprisonment (Nothing). Fighting for democracy, what a joke.[/QUOTE]Journalist, LOL! Next you claim Soloviev and Skabeeva are journalists too.
Here is a balanced report on Lira's misadventures.
[URL]https://plus.thebulwark.com/p/anti-ukraine-chorus-exploit-gonzalo-lira-death[/URL]
[QUOTE=Jacher;2887928]Hi fellow Mongers.
I'm not new but I was out fot five years due to car accident and time after wasn't time for mongering but right now I'm backing at the scene.
Iv read forum threads but didn't find what I'm looking for. And I'm looking for Ukrainian sites where you can meet WG's. I'm planing to visit Love and Kiev in next two week on business trip (yews need do business with Ukraina to maintain cash flow in Ukraina) so I plan to meet some cute girls but rather visit clubs I prefer meet with some WG's or some independent WG's.
If you can help I will be grateful for tips.
Regards.
Jacher.[/QUOTE]This is the wrong forum for mongering inquires. Try the Kiev forum instead.
[URL]http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/forum/showthread.php?816-Kyiv[/URL]
[QUOTE=Jacher;2887928]Hi fellow Mongers.
I'm not new but I was out fot five years due to car accident and time after wasn't time for mongering but right now I'm backing at the scene.
Iv read forum threads but didn't find what I'm looking for. And I'm looking for Ukrainian sites where you can meet WG's. I'm planing to visit Love and Kiev in next two week on business trip (yews need do business with Ukraina to maintain cash flow in Ukraina) so I plan to meet some cute girls but rather visit clubs I prefer meet with some WG's or some independent WG's.
If you can help I will be grateful for tips.
Regards.
Jacher.[/QUOTE]This is so dumb, the post does not deserve a comment. Why would you believe anything on-line in Ukraine, especially now.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2888032]Journalist, LOL! Next you claim Soloviev and Skabeeva are journalists too.
Here is a balanced report on Lira's misadventures.
[URL]https://plus.thebulwark.com/p/anti-ukraine-chorus-exploit-gonzalo-lira-death[/URL][/QUOTE]I don't need an article to know an insignificant youtuber was put in jail to die.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2888038]This is so dumb, the post does not deserve a comment. Why would you believe anything on-line in Ukraine, especially now.[/QUOTE]And yet you commented. Iv read your content. And I know to respond to a troll is bad idea but is such a fun to point one!!
To a those which gave me this what Iv need BIG THANKS. I'm always know that I will find here answers. When I find on those sites what I'm looking for I will post my report.
Regards.
Jacher.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2883202]So, what is the outcome you desire for the current war? Mine is that the 1991, internationally recognized and guaranteed, borders should be restored.[/QUOTE]Yeah. And Israel should return to the 1967 borders too. Turkey should give back Northern Cyprus too. Kosovo should be a part of Serbia again.
You live in lala land. Ukraine is never getting the 4 new territories or Crimea back.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2891735]Yeah. And Israel should return to the 1967 borders too. Turkey should give back Northern Cyprus too. Kosovo should be a part of Serbia again.
You live in lala land. Ukraine is never getting the 4 new territories or Crimea back.[/QUOTE]The old trusty whataboutism which involves lazy comparisons, especially when it comes to Kosovo whose independence came in the aftermath of decades of ethnic cleansing, while Israel is mostly on the defensive. Most Arabs despise them and want them completely out of the region. Much of the rest comes down to priorities. Russia, far from a small island has demonstrated time and again that they won't honor agreements. They've been clear in their desire to restore empire and threaten mainland Europe. They are the lowest of the low, while targeting civilians with precision weapons and exporting Ukrainian children to indoctrination camps. Therefore given whom they are dealing with Ukraine needs to fight on. While all the Nostradamuses like you have all been wrong.
It's possible the west will tire at some point. That's your only hope, though there will be always be underground resistance movements, no peace for the wicked. That's your la la land, and it will continue to be unpleasant.
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2891822]The old trusty whataboutism which involves lazy comparisons, especially when it comes to Kosovo whose independence came in the aftermath of decades of ethnic cleansing, while Israel is mostly on the defensive. Most Arabs despise them and want them completely out of the region. Much of the rest comes down to priorities. Russia, far from a small island has demonstrated time and again that they won't honor agreements. They've been clear in their desire to restore empire and threaten mainland Europe. They are the lowest of the low, while targeting civilians with precision weapons and exporting Ukrainian children to indoctrination camps. Therefore given whom they are dealing with Ukraine needs to fight on. While all the Nostradamuses like you have all been wrong.
It's possible the west will tire at some point. That's your only hope, though there will be always be underground resistance movements, no peace for the wicked. That's your la la land, and it will continue to be unpleasant.[/QUOTE]LOL, as a true 'nostradamus' (unlike the fella you're replying to, who, almost undoubtedly, is a Russia state employee) I'll say this.
While the West seems to be tired and in disarray right now, the last quarter of 2024 will break this pattern. Trump and the Reps (the last Putin's hope) will lose miserably, the military aid to Ukraine will resume in spades, and not only will the Third Rome (or Fourth Reich, as some would call it more accurately) eventually return to the borders of 1991 -- it'll start devouring itself from the inside until it finally shrinks into a much smaller (and hopefully more peaceful) normally-sized country.
Till then, Ukraine must hold on, since you're absolutely right -- they don't have another choice.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2891928]LOL, as a true 'nostradamus' (unlike the fella you're replying to, who, almost undoubtedly, is a Russia state employee) I'll say this.
While the West seems to be tired and in disarray right now, the last quarter of 2024 will break this pattern. Trump and the Reps (the last Putin's hope) will lose miserably, the military aid to Ukraine will resume in spades, and not only will the Third Rome (or Fourth Reich, as some would call it more accurately) eventually return to the borders of 1991 -- it'll start devouring itself from the inside until it finally shrinks into a much smaller (and hopefully more peaceful) normally-sized country.
Till then, Ukraine must hold on, since you're absolutely right -- they don't have another choice.[/QUOTE]You need to stop taking drugs and watching CNN. You are truly Delusional. Hopefully soon Pres. Z. will be locked up and the war will end, but you, Biden and your wacko friends want this Ass Kicking to continue.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2891987]You need to stop taking drugs and watching CNN. You are truly Delusional. Hopefully soon Pres. Z. will be locked up and the war will end, but you, Biden and your wacko friends want this Ass Kicking to continue.[/QUOTE]The ones getting their asses kicked are the Russians, just ask Gerasimov he will be happy to explain the situation in detail for you.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2891987]You need to stop taking drugs and watching CNN. You are truly Delusional. Hopefully soon Pres. Z. will be locked up and the war will end, but you, Biden and your wacko friends want this Ass Kicking to continue.[/QUOTE]Drama Queen that is. Russia has lost over 50% of the territory they gained at the beginning of the invasion while they've buried in excess of 300,000 soldiers. That isn't kicking ass, while it's a sad testimony for a so called superpower.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2891987]You need to stop taking drugs and watching CNN. You are truly Delusional. Hopefully soon Pres. Z. will be locked up and the war will end, but you, Biden and your wacko friends want this Ass Kicking to continue.[/QUOTE]Exactly. Xman's prediction was deranged. I just watched Tucker Carlson's interview with Putin, and Putin knocked it out of the park.
The comments on Zero Hedge were overwhelmingly the same. Man, do we wish we had a leader this intelligent and rational.
He pretty much took apart the whole neocon globalist argument piece by piece.
I can expect the same you want to suck Putin's dick comments again here.
Thing is what I would like to see is someone take down Putin's case instead of the stupid insults, but that is never going to happen.
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2892532]
Thing is what I would like to see is someone take down Putin's case instead of the stupid insults, but that is never going to happen.[/QUOTE]We've been taking down Kremlin propaganda / talking points here since the start of the war. It's all over this thread. JmSuttr was the best at it. I've been pretty good, as have been some others. The entire historical and philosophical basis for the invasion has been undercut, and with good source material. But you can't ask us all to do it over again from scratch when all anyone has to do is scroll back through the discussions. In my past worklife (retired now) I got paid for that sort of thing, and am not doing again for free here what I've already done about eight times. I've been generous enough Wink. But if you are really interested in our side of it there's content here, and plenty more in Google. I'll say this though, Ronald Reagan, a true conservative is turning in his grave at this sad state of affairs, the kowtowing to our historic enemy that has never more wanted to see us fail.
Elvis, according to my source (Washington Post) Carlson prodded out of Putes that he feels Russia has historic rights to parts of Ukraine, notably the Donbass and Crimea if not more, and that in fact was the reason for the invasion, not some fear of NATO as the hard right in the States wants to think. Carlson reportedly stated that he was "shocked" by that. But it makes perfect sense as prior to the invasion Putes gave a rambling history lesson going back hundreds of years that relatively few professional historians agree with. But it's neither here nor there as the Russian-Ukrainian Friendship Treaty was ratified in 1999 which confirmed the recognition of the inviolability of existing borders, ie. Donbass and Crimea are Ukraine. Did you pick that up in the interview? Here's the source but it's behind a paywall for most of you.
[URL]https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/02/11/tucker-carlson-vladimir-putin-interview/[/URL]
But in any case it's ironic, as Putin is a war criminal and belongs at The Hague getting interrogated, not doing a sit-down with Carlson.
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2892532]Exactly. Xman's prediction was deranged. I just watched Tucker Carlson's interview with Putin, and [b]Putin knocked it out of the park[/b].
The comments on Zero Hedge were overwhelmingly the same. Man, [b]do we wish we had a leader this intelligent and rational.[/b]
He pretty much took apart the whole neocon globalist argument piece by piece.
I can expect the same you want to suck Putin's dick comments again here.[/QUOTE]What for? You've just confirmed what I've been saying all along with your own post. Case closed.
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2893030]We've been taking down Kremlin propaganda / talking points here since the start of the war. It's all over this thread. JmSuttr was the best at it. I've been pretty good, as have been some others. The entire historical and philosophical basis for the invasion has been undercut, and with good source material. But you can't ask us all to do it over again from scratch when all anyone has to do is scroll back through the discussions. In my past worklife (retired now) I got paid for that sort of thing, and am not doing again for free here what I've already done about eight times. I've been generous enough Wink. But if you are really interested in our side of it there's content here, and plenty more in Google. I'll say this though, Ronald Reagan, a true conservative is turning in his grave at this sad state of affairs, the kowtowing to our historic enemy that has never more wanted to see us fail.[/QUOTE]If he'd had any interest in seeing "someone take down Putin's case", he would've found multiple honest analyses in a New York minute.
[B]Tucker Carlson interview: Fact-checking Putin's 'nonsense'.
Putin, in rambling interview, barely lets Tucker Carlson get a word in.
Putin's Myths About Ukraine, Debunked.
Putin Used Tucker Carlson to Wipe the Kremlin's Floor.[/B]
Instead he went to the old and tested Zero Hedge, the source he knew wouldn't upset him or challenge his deranged viewpoints.
I don't know. If people like Elvis represent tens of millions of MAGAns (and I think he does represent them perfectly), then our future prospects are bleak. Ideology is one thing, but their admiration, their willingness to embrace the sworn enemy of this country who's threatening to annihilate us in nuclear holocaust is something else entirely. Reagan isn't turning in his grave -- he's spinning.
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2893030]We've been taking down Kremlin propaganda / talking points here since the start of the war. It's all over this thread.[/QUOTE]But Paulie, it was not just Russian propaganda. Putin reiterated that Ukraine and Russia had a peace deal and Boris Johnson destroyed it.
In her book The Plot, former Tory MP Nadine Dorries, a hardcore Boris partisan, proudly wrote that Boris was responsible for killing a peace deal with Russia over Ukraine as it was "the right thing to do," in Boris's apparent words.
[URL]https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/boris-johnson-has-meltdown-after-being-exposed-sabotaging-ukraine-peace-deal[/URL]
Then you look at the Bojo video and all he does is the same thing everyone on the left is saying: Don't listen to Tucker Carlson and Putin! That practically confirmed for me what the truth was.
All Putin did was confirm an already known fact. He even has the documentation to back up what he said.
But the key point for Americans is this:
Tucker: Do you think NATO is worried about this becoming a global war or a nuclear conflict?
Putin: At least that's what they are talking about. And they are trying to intimidate their own population with an imaginary Russian threat. This is an obvious fact. And thinking people, not philistines, those who are engaged in real politics, just smart people, understand perfectly well that this is a fake. They are trying to fuel the Russian threat.
Tucker: The threat I think you are referring to is a Russian invasion of Poland, Latvia, expansion.
Putin: We have no interest in Poland, Latvia or anywhere else. Why would we do that? Invade Poland? We simply don't have any interest. It's just threat mongering.
Tucker: Well, the argument, and I know you know this, is, well he invaded Ukraine, he has territorial aims across the continent, and you are saying unequivocally you don't.
Putin: It is absolutely out of the question. You don't have to be any kind of analyst, it goes against common sense to get involved in some kind of global war. And a global war would bring all of humanity to the brink of destruction. It's obvious. They have been scaring everyone with us, all along. Tomorrow Russia will use tactical nuclear weapons, tomorrow Russia will use that. No, the day after tomorrow. So what? In order to extort additional money from US taxpayers and European taxpayers in the confrontation with Russia.
Tucker: Chuck Schumer, said yesterday, that we have to continue funding the Ukrainian effort or US soldiers could wind up fighting there. How do you assess that?
Putin: This is a provocation, and a cheap provocation at that. I do not understand why American soldiers should fight in Ukraine. There are mercenaries from the United States there. The bigger number of mercenaries comes from Poland. Does the United States need this? What for? Thousands of miles away from your national territory. Don't you have anything better to do? You have issues on the border, issues on migration, issues with the national debt, more than $33 trillion dollars. You have nothing better to do so you fight in Ukraine. Realizing Russia will fight for its interests until the end.
End Transcript.
Thing I do not think Democrats get is that after Russiagate, all those millions of people who voted for Trump are going to be incredibly skeptical of Democrats and the intelligence agencies.
Is there anything outside of speculation that Putin is going to invade Europe after Ukraine? I do not see a compelling case that Putin goes into Europe. I am not even sure he could if the wanted to.
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2893052]Elvis, according to my source (Washington Post) Carlson prodded out of Putes that he feels Russia has historic rights to parts of Ukraine, notably the Donbass and Crimea if not more, and that in fact was the reason for the invasion, not some fear of NATO as the hard right in the States wants to think. Carlson reportedly stated that he was "shocked" by that. But it makes perfect sense as prior to the invasion Putes gave a rambling history lesson going back hundreds of years that relatively few professional historians agree with.[/QUOTE]Nah, Putin's history talk was going on for like the first full half hour of the interview. Carlson tried to push Putin to the more modern topic, but Putin kept going back to history. I am not sure why he did it. I think he wanted people to understand the fluidity of what a Ukrainian is and how its history is very complex. He made the point that Ukraine was filled not just with Russians but Hungarians as well, and there have always been disputes with Ukraine.
As for why there was an invasion, Putin said Russia and Ukraine had disputes since 2008, the Minsk accords were signed to stop the fighting but he said they were being violated by Ukraine (probably his biggest reason for the invasion). He also pointed to the rise of neonazism in Ukraine with the associated aggression towards Russia, and Ukraine bombing the Donbas region, and the rise of Western mercenaries and training of Ukrainian soldiers. He gave the impression he launched a pre-emptive strike and attacked Ukraine before Ukraine attached Russia.
Now you can say that is all nonsense which is fine, but that was his explanation not the notion that Ukraine belonged to Russia.
And you may say that fear of invading Russia is poppycock. No one would invade Russia but there is this guy Peter Zeihan who seems to be very well plugged into the CIA and the neocon way of thinking. And in this video he openly speculates about Poland launching an aggressive and expansive war against Russia. It was shocking to me to say the least: [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRoDjUcVOPY[/URL].
Were you trying to install imbedded links? If so they didn't take, and may not be possible on this site.
You missed my question. Let me repost. Read everything up to the question: "Did you pick that up in the interview?" Do you believe that Russia has rights to current Ukrainian territory, certain regions and perhaps the whole country based on distance history going back many centuries? This is Putin's angle that he's been quite clear about. Also what do you think of the Russian-Ukraine Friendship Treaty of 1999 that confirms the present borders?
Elvis, according to my source (Washington Post) Carlson prodded out of Putes that he feels Russia has historic rights to parts of Ukraine, notably the Donbass and Crimea if not more, and that in fact was the reason for the invasion, not some fear of NATO as the hard right in the States wants to think. Carlson reportedly stated that he was "shocked" by that. But it makes perfect sense as prior to the invasion Putes gave a rambling history lesson going back hundreds of years that relatively few professional historians agree with. But it's neither here nor there as the Russian-Ukrainian Friendship Treaty was ratified in 1999 which confirmed the recognition of the inviolability of existing borders, ie. Donbass and Crimea are Ukraine. Did you pick that up in the interview? Here's the source but it's behind a paywall for most of you.
[URL]https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...tin-interview/[/URL]
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2893030]We've been taking down Kremlin propaganda / talking points here since the start of the war. It's all over this thread. JmSuttr was the best at it. I've been pretty good, as have been some others. The entire historical and philosophical basis for the invasion has been undercut, and with good source material. But you can't ask us all to do it over again from scratch when all anyone has to do is scroll back through the discussions.[/QUOTE]It might be worth collecting the links in one post to stop the constant sealioning from the Z propaganda team. The current tactic is to constantly regurgitate refuted points every couple of months to exhaust people. Would be much easier to just copy and paste one post they can refer to since they refuse to read the thread, or more likely deliberately ignoring the information, and hoping to skirt by with their lies and false interpretations.
Why is this stupid war still going? Shouldn't Russia have won long time ago.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2893100]
Instead he went to the old and tested Zero Hedge, the source he knew wouldn't upset him or challenge his deranged viewpoints.
[/QUOTE]I was referring to the comments section. Your POV was well represented there Xpartan. That POV got down voted to shit but it was there. Unlike you Dems, zero hedge does not censor everything.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2893280]It might be worth collecting the links in one post to stop the constant sealioning from the Z propaganda team. The current tactic is to constantly regurgitate refuted points every couple of months to exhaust people. Would be much easier to just copy and paste one post they can refer to since they refuse to read the thread, or more likely deliberately ignoring the information, and hoping to skirt by with their lies and false interpretations.[/QUOTE]Xpartan's link to Putin's lies referred to Putin's verbal history of the region. It was not exactly titillating stuff.
What lies are you talking about? Did Ukraine violate the Minsk agreement? Do neonazis not exist in Ukraine? Was the Dombas bombed by Ukraine? Didn't Boris Johnson scuttle peace talks?
The best I have seen is that Russia was violating the Minsk agreement as well, but tThis is the EXACT same attitude you lefties took with Russiagate and now you still do not fess up that it was all bullshit. So you Dems and your intelligence agencies need to do one helluva lot better with explaining yourselves than the same old cocky we know best attitude because we have seen that movie before, and whether you like it or not, on Russiagate, Putin was the one telling the truth, and you lefties were the ones lying.
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2893302] Do neonazis not exist in Ukraine?[/QUOTE]That's quite a weak standard there man. Yes they do, and in the US, the UK, Germany, and many other Euro countries.
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2893302]Xpartan's link to Putin's lies referred to Putin's verbal history of the region. It was not exactly titillating stuff.
What lies are you talking about? Did Ukraine violate the Minsk agreement? Do neonazis not exist in Ukraine? Was the Dombas bombed by Ukraine? Didn't Boris Johnson scuttle peace talks?
The best I have seen is that Russia was violating the Minsk agreement as well, but tThis is the EXACT same attitude you lefties took with Russiagate and now you still do not fess up that it was all bullshit. So you Dems and your intelligence agencies need to do one helluva lot better with explaining yourselves than the same old cocky we know best attitude because we have seen that movie before, and whether you like it or not, on Russiagate, Putin was the one telling the truth, and you lefties were the ones lying.[/QUOTE]Elvis these guys are idiots: they leave out the following information:
-440,000-500, Ukraine soldiers are dead, probably more. There is another 500-1 million so injured they will never be able to work again, or severe in the military.
-Millions were feeing the before the war.
-no new births of children.
-corruption is still rampant.
-I can go on.
For whatever reasons they want this crazy war to continue. The funny part is they all claim Trump / Putin will go to jail, but Pres Z. , will probably be the one that ends up in jail or killed. The sooner this happens the better off we will be. What a disaster and all the blame goes the Democratic's / the Euros.
The Minsk agreements related to cease fires. Russian backed separatists agreed to the first but not the second, obviously because it involved Ukrainian control of their land, the Donbass, and with elections to follow. That's all neither here nor there though to the Russia-Ukraine Friendship agreement of 1999 of which solidified Ukrainian territory, and that of course includes the Donbass and Crimea. You've yet to comment on this 1999 agreement, but did answer my other question.
[URL]https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/what-are-minsk-agreements-ukraine-conflict-2022-02-21/[/URL]
Regarding Putins historic claims to Ukraine for Russia, here's a concise rebuttal.
[URL]https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lseih/2020/07/01/there-is-no-ukraine-fact-checking-the-kremlins-version-of-ukrainian-history/[/URL]
Even if Putin were correct this doesn't remove Ukraine's right to the territory that was guaranteed in the Russia-Ukraine Friendship agreement of 1999. And like it or not, Ukrainians are a separate people, with their own language, traditional dress, national heros, myths, historic national songs, art, literature, etc. That make up a distinct people. P.S. I'll add that any in the Donbass or Crimea that want to be Russian don't have far to travel as Russia is very close. They haven't any right to steal land. While only a handful of countries recognize Russia's annexation of Crimea. It's hardly an impressive list and includes Cuba, Venezuela, and Nicaragua.
But you know we get it, to you the Dems and Neo-cons are the bad guys while Putin and the "America First" right wing crowd in the states along with similar groups in Europe are good and honorable.
I personally consider Putin a war criminal that has murdered civilians with precision weapons while exporting Ukrainian children to indoctrination camps. I'm also convinced that the likelihood of him honoring any ceasefire agreements are practically zero. I consider myself an independent and a moderate.
DiVinci feel free to archive these links and any others you find. I'm way behind on work around the house, so may not be around for at least a few days.
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2893345]
But you know we get it, to you the Dems and Neo-cons are the bad guys while Putin and the "America First" right wing crowd in the states along with similar groups in Europe are good and honorable.[/QUOTE]There were tens of millions of people who voted for Trump. Russiagate was a made up bullshit attempt to get those votes tossed in the trash and have Trump ousted. The media was flooded with Russia, Russia, Russia for years.
Then came Covid with the most arrogant antivaxxer shit attached to it. Children were lined up to get vaccinated or shamed for not doing so. Why? For them? Or because some in the deep state profited off of the vaccine? There was no explanation for why children needed to be vaccinated, just sheer arrogance.
Then Covid is flung off the front page and it is Ukraine all day every day. Zelensky is not a comedian playing a piano with his dick. He is now a modern day Jesus. Yellow and blue ribbons are everywhere. Money flows to Zelensky just like it did with the vaccines and Covid. Anyone questioning that money is deemed a nut job.
Then the facts dribble out. The whole notion that Russia is going into Paris and beyond fizzles out. The questions about what victory means are raised and about why there is so much concern about the borders in Ukraine and not our own.
And why is so much fucking money going to Ukraine? What the fuck does it have to do with us? And it really comes down to one question: Is Putin going to invade Europe and start World War 3? Putin answered that Russia invading Europe is fucking crazy. He said the fear mongering going on is to extract money from American and European taxpayers.
The real tell for me with Putin though was when he was asked about the Nordstream pipeline and who blew it up. Putin could have laid out the same factual basis Seymour Hersh did in his reporting, but he does not. He says look at who said they were going to blow up the pipeline and look at who is capable of doing it. Here is a guy who could easily justify a war with Europe as the blowing up of the pipeline was an act of war, and he does not go there.
And then you have Peter Zeihan saying the Polish flag has flown over Moscow before and may again, and Poland is now buying up tons and tons of tanks and actually predicting that Poland might get together with other nations and invade Russia. It is getting more and more obvious which side in this conflict wants war.
And then there was the response from the Democrats and the media, and it was the same as with Covid and Russiagate. Putin is a liar. He is a war criminal. Tucker Carlson asked softball questions (even before the interview was aired). Tucker Carlson should be banned from Europe. He is not a journalist. It is arrogance with no basis in fact. There is just shouting down or banning anyone who disagrees with the now obviously flawed narrative.
We have seen this movie before. In fact, we already know the ending. When we ask what did we get for our money spent in Ukraine, or on the Covid vaccines, or on the Russiagate probe, we will be shushed away as if that huge waste of time and money never happened and lectured and shamed on this new great danger we have to spend billions on no questions asked.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2893317]
For whatever reasons they want this crazy war to continue. The funny part is they all claim Trump / Putin will go to jail, but Pres Z. , will probably be the one that ends up in jail or killed. The sooner this happens the better off we will be. What a disaster and all the blame goes the Democratic's / the Euros.[/QUOTE]Yeah, Tucker Carlson was asking this too. WTF was the purpose of this? With the Covid vaccines and children, it was bureaucrats pushing the vaccine so the drug companies could make billions while putting millions in the pockets of the bureaucrats. If anyone does not see that now, they are a sap.
After the Putin interview, it was obvious Putin wants the war to end, and the neocons and defense contractors want it to keep going. I suspect some day we will learn of the same billions / millions split here as well, and in both cases, these parties do not give a fuck about all the bodies they leave behind.
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2893275]Were you trying to install imbedded links? If so they didn't take, and may not be possible on this site.[/QUOTE]Tucker Carlson interview: Fact-checking Putin's 'nonsense'.
[URL]https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68255302[/URL]
Putin, in rambling interview, barely lets Tucker Carlson get a word in.
[URL]https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/02/08/tucker-carlson-putin-interview-released/[/URL]#text=Carlson%20 said%20 he%20 felt%20 that,%E2%80%9 Cdenazification%E2%80%9 the%20 of%20 the%20 country.
Putin's Myths About Ukraine, Debunked.
[URL]https://time.com/6693504/vladimir-putin-history-myths-russia-ukraine-debunked/[/URL]
Putin Used Tucker Carlson to Wipe the Kremlin's Floor.
[URL]https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/tucker-carlson-vladimir-putin-interview-ukraine-1234965053/[/URL]
Here is another one, especially for Elvis, who seems to believe every word that comes from the mouth of Putin. No, Johnson didn't kill a peace deal with Russia. There wasn't and couldn't have been any peace deal with Russia in the spring of 2022 and besides Johnson didn't have the power or a sway to have killed a peace deal even if there was one.
[B]Putin repeats nonsense claim Boris Johnson scuppered efforts to end Ukraine invasion[/B]
[QUOTE]Vladimir Putin has repeated a claim that Boris Johnson scuppered negotiations for a peace settlement between Russia and Ukraine, which the former UK prime minister has previously labelled nonsense.
During a highly anticipated sit-down interview with former Fox News commentator Tucker Carlson, the Russian president said, via a translator, that a huge document had been prepared and approved by the head of the Ukrainian delegation, before Mr Johnson had stepped in and dissuaded Ukraines president Volodymyr Zelensky.
Putin said of Zelensky: He put his signature and then he himself said, We were ready to sign it and the war would have been over long ago. However, Prime Minister Johnson came to talk us out of it, and weve missed that chance.
In an interview with The Times in January, Mr Johnson strongly denied the claims, which have been previously aired by Moscow, describing them as total nonsense and Russian propaganda.
Mr Johnson asserted that, during a conversation with Mr Zelensky following the peace talks in Istanbul, he had expressed concerns about the nature of the potential agreement, but assured him of the UKs unwavering support for Ukraine.
He said: [b]No peace proposals or peace agreement were possible in February or March 2022. Russia entered Ukraine solely for the sake of seizing territories, killing citizens and overthrowing a democratic government.[/b][/QUOTE][URL]https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/putin-boris-johnson-tucker-carlson-ukraine-war-b2493341.html[/URL]
It's sad that a grown-up man would believe anything coming from Putin or Trump, the two most prolific liars of our time.
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2893314]That's quite a weak standard there man. Yes they do, and in the US, the UK, Germany, and many other Euro countries.[/QUOTE]In Russia, as well. In spades. And plenty of them are fighting in Ukraine.
Russian Neo-Nazis Participate in 'Denazifying' Ukraine.
[URL]https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/05/23/russian-neo-nazis-participate-in-denazifying-ukraine-der-spiegel-a77762[/URL]
Meet the Russian neo-Nazis fighting for Ukraine.
[URL]https://www.codastory.com/episodes/meet-the-russian-neo-nazis-fighting-for-ukraine/[/URL]
Who Are The Neo-Nazis Fighting For Russia In Ukraine?
[URL]https://www.rferl.org/a/russian-neo-nazis-fighting-ukraine/31871760.html[/URL]
Time to denazify Russia, I guess.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2893476]Here is another one, especially for Elvis, who seems to believe every word that comes from the mouth of Putin. No, Johnson didn't kill a peace deal with Russia. There wasn't and couldn't have been any peace deal with Russia in the spring of 2022 and besides Johnson didn't have the power or a sway to have killed a peace deal even if there was one.[/QUOTE]Uh, let us quote your source.
From Boris Johnson: Mr Johnson asserted that, during a conversation with Mr Zelensky following the peace talks in Istanbul, he had "expressed concerns" about the nature of the potential agreement.
From Ukraine: The former prime minister's rebuttal came following statements made by David Arakhamiya, head of the Ukrainian delegation in talks with Russia. Mr Arakhamiya cited a previous visit by Mr Johnson to Kyiv as forming part of the decision not to negotiate with Moscow in 2022. Mr Johnson had allegedly said that Ukraine "shouldn't sign anything with them at all and let's just fight".
From Putin: Speaking of the proposed negotiations, Mr Putin continued: "We have never refused. And the fact that they obeyed the demand or persuasion of Mr Johnson, the former prime minister of Great Britain, seems ridiculous and very sad to me.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2893476]No, Johnson didn't kill a peace deal with Russia. There wasn't and couldn't have been any peace deal with Russia in the spring of 2022 and besides Johnson didn't have the power or a sway to have killed a peace deal even if there was one.[/QUOTE]Uh, everyone involved said Johnson did exactly that.
What is sad is you, a supposedly grown man, reads the headlines without getting into the facts.
The headline reads: Putin repeats 'nonsense' claim Boris Johnson scuppered efforts to end Ukraine invasion.
Did you even bother to read who made the claim that Putin was repeating? That would be the head of the Ukrainian delegation.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2893476]It's sad that a grown-up man would believe anything coming from Putin or Trump, the two most prolific liars of our time.[/QUOTE]Putin was verifying facts already known, dummy, but you hate Putin so much if Putin said the moon is not made of green cheese, you would say, "It sure is."
I have been down this rabbit hole with you before. When Victoria Neuland, a POS warmongering necon, picked out Ukraine's leader and was asked about the EU's concern about that leader, she said, "Fuck the EU. " You challenged me on the fact. You did not look it up. You just bought it when I said I was making up that fact versus it really happening.
You are the most factually challenged and gullible guy on here. For the millionth time, if you care so damned much about Ukraine, why have you not volunteered to fight?
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2893648]Uh, let us quote your source.
From Boris Johnson: Mr Johnson asserted that, during a conversation with Mr Zelensky following the peace talks in Istanbul, he had "expressed concerns" about the nature of the potential agreement.
From Ukraine: The former prime minister's rebuttal came following statements made by David Arakhamiya, head of the Ukrainian delegation in talks with Russia. Mr Arakhamiya cited a previous visit by Mr Johnson to Kyiv as forming part of the decision not to negotiate with Moscow in 2022. Mr Johnson had allegedly said that Ukraine "shouldn't sign anything with them at all and let's just fight".
From Putin: Speaking of the proposed negotiations, Mr Putin continued: "We have never refused. And the fact that they obeyed the demand or persuasion of Mr Johnson, the former prime minister of Great Britain, seems ridiculous and very sad to me.
Uh, everyone involved said Johnson did exactly that.
What is sad is you, a supposedly grown man, reads the headlines without getting into the facts.[/QUOTE]Again, Boris Johnson didn't and couldn't have broken the so-called "peace talks" with Moscow. He didn't have the power, he didn't have the sway.
"Expressing concerns" is not the same as giving orders. Every sane person would've and probably did express concerns about negotiating with Putin. It's been proven times and again that Putin doesn't give a fuck about any agreements or treaties he signs.
Zelensky is his own man. The whole presumption that the Ukrainian government would've just taken an order from Boris Johnson (or anyone else for that matter) is beyond preposterous. It's crazy and idiotic.
Of course for authoritarians like yourself, countries don't matter. Only strongmen do. Well, the whole world predicted that Kyiv would fall in three days. Where are these "analysts" now? Ukraine has proved that they're perfectly capable of kicking Putin's ass, we just need to help them a little.
I scanned over your post to me and didn't see where you answered my question about the Russia-Ukraine Friendship Treaty of 1999, long before Trump and Covid were ever on the scene. Both parties signed on for this, and it confirmed existing borders. It was in place, both during the Russian incursions into The Donbas in 2008, as well as the time of the annexation of Crimea.
"One of the key obligations set by the Treaty was Article 2, which observed that the parties 'shall honour each other's territorial integrity and shall acknowledge the inviolability of the borders existing between them'. Article 3 further clarified that the parties 'shall structure their relations. On the principles of. Sovereign equality, territorial integrity, inviolability of borders'."
[URL]https://opiniojuris.org/2019/05/01/termination-of-the-treaty-of-friendship-between-ukraine-and-russia-too-little-too-late-%EF%BB%BF/[/URL]
I'm sincere. Hint: Russia of course has a spin on it. Who in this world is ever wrong? Wink They typically have justifications for their actions. Go to any prison and try to find a guilty person. Germany surely did with the invasions of both Czechoslovakia and Poland at the start of WW 2. They were the good guys so they claimed. Because all such actions have justifications behind them, no matter how spurious. But you should be familiar with these issues if you want to make the arguments you are making. You may have to step away from the current website you are sourcing. You might even have to go directly to Russian sources.
One other question, if Putin is such a good guy, why do all his serious political opponents end up dead or in jail? It's usually the former.
P.S. I did watch parts of the interview. Putin at points was extremely disrespectful to Tucker, mocking him at one point, for the latter was rejected in his bid to join the CIA. Carlson looked bewildered and stunned at the moment, and was clearly way out of his element. He delivers Putes a softball interview and for his trouble gets impaled. Carlson also lied when he said he was the first US journalist to go there during the hostilities. Two Americans, Evan Gershkovich, WSJ and Alsu Kurmasheva, Radio Free Europe have recently been detained in Russia, and the former is still there. CNN also claims to have repeatedly begged Putin for an interview. Of course you don't find them reliable, and I don't either at times, but it's tough to doubt them on that point. They never shy away from inviting controversial figures onto the shows.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2893728]Again, Boris Johnson didn't and couldn't have broken the so-called "peace talks" with Moscow. He didn't have the power, he didn't have the sway.
"Expressing concerns" is not the same as giving orders. Every sane person would've and probably did express concerns about negotiating with Putin. It's been proven times and again that Putin doesn't give a fuck about any agreements or treaties he signs.
Zelensky is his own man. The whole presumption that the Ukrainian government would've just taken an order from Boris Johnson (or anyone else for that matter) is beyond preposterous. It's crazy and idiotic.
Of course for authoritarians like yourself, countries don't matter. Only strongmen do. Well, the whole world predicted that Kyiv would fall in three days. Where are these "analysts" now? Ukraine has proved that they're perfectly capable of kicking Putin's ass, we just need to help them a little.[/QUOTE]It's like saying Biden should have guaranteed that Ukraine would be perpetually excluded from NATO. He didn't remotely have that power, while any such exclusion violates the charter. Putin already knew what the response to his demand would be. The plan to rapidly take Kyiv and install a puppet was already in play.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2893478]In Russia, as well. In spades. And plenty of them are fighting in Ukraine.
Russian Neo-Nazis Participate in 'Denazifying' Ukraine.
[URL]https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/05/23/russian-neo-nazis-participate-in-denazifying-ukraine-der-spiegel-a77762[/URL]
Meet the Russian neo-Nazis fighting for Ukraine.
[URL]https://www.codastory.com/episodes/meet-the-russian-neo-nazis-fighting-for-ukraine/[/URL]
Who Are The Neo-Nazis Fighting For Russia In Ukraine?
[URL]https://www.rferl.org/a/russian-neo-nazis-fighting-ukraine/31871760.html[/URL]
Time to denazify Russia, I guess.[/QUOTE]The whole idea of de-Nazifying a country with a Jewish president who won 73% of the vote is about ludicrous. Add the fact that Neo-Nazi soldiers only represent a relatively small number of a single battalion (Azov, 10 to 20%) and it's fully ludicrous.
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2893813]I scanned over your post to me and didn't see where you answered my question about the Russia-Ukraine Friendship Treaty of 1999, long before Trump and Covid were ever on the scene. Both parties signed on for this, and it confirmed existing borders. It was in place, both during the Russian incursions into The Donbas in 2008, as well as the time of the annexation of Crimea.
"One of the key obligations set by the Treaty was Article 2, which observed that the parties 'shall honour each other's territorial integrity and shall acknowledge the inviolability of the borders existing between them'. Article 3 further clarified that the parties 'shall structure their relations. On the principles of. Sovereign equality, territorial integrity, inviolability of borders'."
[URL]https://opiniojuris.org/2019/05/01/termination-of-the-treaty-of-friendship-between-ukraine-and-russia-too-little-too-late-%EF%BB%BF/[/URL][/QUOTE]Paulie, there were all the fact checkers who disputed Putin's historical take on Ukraine. To me, it is irrelevant to the issue at hand.
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2893813]I'm sincere. Hint: Russia of course has a spin on it. Who in this world is ever wrong? Wink They typically have justifications for their actions. Go to any prison and try to find a guilty person. Germany surely did with the invasions of both Czechoslovakia and Poland at the start of WW 2. They were the good guys so they claimed. Because all such actions have justifications behind them, no matter how spurious. But you should be familiar with these issues if you want to make the arguments you are making. You may have to step away from the current website you are sourcing. You might even have to go directly to Russian sources.[/QUOTE]I completely agree with you. We have had disputes about this before. You have called this attack on Ukraine unprovoked, and I have told you that I saw with my own eyes Biden's military buildup and his history. I cannot recall any war Biden has not supported. But whether it was provoked or not, the issue at hand is the American taxpayer continuing to pay for this war.
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2893813]One other question, if Putin is such a good guy, why do all his serious political opponents end up dead or in jail? It's usually the former.[/QUOTE]I never said Putin was a good guy, but he was the one telling the truth on Russiagate. And we are in the same situation as we were then. I am not buying the good guy bad guy scenario with the USA intelligence agencies given their history.
But when you have the government agency response which is attacking Tucker Carlson and saying do not listen to him or Putin IMO you have lost the argument. This is the same tactic that you are accusing Putin of, censorship. And Democrats do not get the high ground on political opponents and jailing them given what is happening with Trump and not happening with Biden.
Still, what is the end game? Why do we care more about Ukraine's borders than our own? I look at weapons manufacturers just like vaccine manufacturers with Covid and everything is being done in their interests and IMO not the American public's. No one has made a compelling case as to why we care so much about Ukraine and are willing to send them so much money.
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2893813]P.S. I did watch parts of the interview. Putin at points was extremely disrespectful to Tucker, mocking him at one point, for the latter was rejected in his bid to join the CIA. Carlson looked bewildered and stunned at the moment, and was clearly way out of his element.[/QUOTE]Here we go again. Here is an interview with Tucker right after he spoke to Putin: [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzlt1VVBcg8[/URL].
Look at the boxes on the side and how many views there were of the interview in India? Look at how many people are in the audience where he is speaking. Attacking Carlson and not his opinions and ideas means you have lost.
And Xpartan just lost. Zelensky is his own man. Boris Johnson did not have the power to scuttle the negotiations. Issuing declarations with nothing to back them up means you lose. That is why there is such a fight on this issue. It is the same tactics we saw with Covid and Russiagate. How do you know Putin is going to invade the rest of Europe? Because we say so, and you are an idiot if you do not go along with us means you just lost.
And guys like Xpartan keep attacking me as if I am the one who holds the key. Let us leave American politics. Putin says he wants negotiated peace, and the official response is Tucker Carlson is a hack and Putin is lying. Do you think that works with the thinking Indian people who watched this interview? Because I sure do not. We look like a bunch of foolish war mongers.
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2893828]The whole idea of de-Nazifying a country with a Jewish president who won 73% of the vote is about ludicrous. Add the fact that Neo-Nazi soldiers only represent a relatively small number of a single battalion (Azov, 10 to 20%) and it's fully ludicrous.[/QUOTE]Even Azov can't be seen as Neo-Nazis today after the brigade purged the Nazi sympathizers in 2016-2017. What personal views Azov soldiers are harboring nowadays, who knows, but that's true about pretty much anybody.
But Putin claims are awfully rich considering that FSB tried to control Azov back in a day and at one point managed to install an FSB agent as Azov's leader. The Russian influence didn't take, though, and Azov became the most successful military regimen in the Ukrainian army.
[URL]https://news.yahoo.com/azov-regiment-called-neo-nazi-142500366.html[/URL]
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2893897]Putin says he wants negotiated peace...[/QUOTE]You keep smoothing over the most important factors:
1) If Putin wants peace, he can withdraw from Ukraine at any time and there will be immediate peace.
2) Putin does not uphold agreements, and has reneged each time.
Can you please reformulate your position and take that into account?
[QUOTE=VinDici;2893974]2) Putin does not uphold agreements, and has reneged each time.
Can you please reformulate your position and take that into account?[/QUOTE]Yeah, the intelligence agencies lied their asses off about Russiagate, and Putin was telling the truth, so your whole narrative of Putin as dishonest and we are honest blows up in your face.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2893974]1) If Putin wants peace, he can withdraw from Ukraine at any time and there will be immediate peace.[/QUOTE]That is not going to happen. What do you propose besides peace with Putin? 400,000 dead Ukrainians is not enough for you? You know the average soldier in Ukraine is pushing 45 years old? That people in Ukraine are opposing and protesting the drafting of men to fight in this war? That the wealthy in Ukraine left town before the war started? That guys on here have seen those in the Ukrainian government living it up at the Globe Club in Switzerland and Zelensky is buying up properties in Europe? That the Ukrainian economy has been going down at a rate of 8% a year?
This war was supposed to hurt Russia. Well, Russia is now the biggest economy in Europe overtaking Germany. Germany has gotten killed economically because they are paying through the nose for expensive nonRussian natural gas, and other nations have had to bear the burden of Ukrainian refugees.
In the mean time, Tucker Carlson shot this video of the Russian subway system and compared it to those in the West. [URL]https://twitter.com/i/status/1757901280830505037[/URL].
You Democrats wanted to inflict on Russia and Putin. Any evidence that what you are doing worked? Because it sure as hell does not look like it to me.
[QUOTE]In a media briefing ahead of the meeting, French diplomatic sources said VIGINUM, the French watchdog that monitors foreign digital interference, had identified some 193 websites that aimed to broadly spread information from pro-Russian sources as well as Russian news outlets and institutions.[/QUOTE][URL]https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/european-powers-warn-spike-russian-propaganda-before-eu-elections-2024-02-12/[/URL]
But at least people who disseminate Russian fake news are paid pretty well. Yet, they rely on an army of useful idiots who're more than willing to spread and amplify all kinds of Kremlin-produced lies gratis. Tucker Carlson will have probably monetized his Putin's "interview" to the tune of tens of millions of dollars, but who if not his followers are helping him to do all the heavy lifting. Just look at these 'postulates' from one of his disciples, LOL.
[QUOTE]- The intelligence agencies lied their asses off about Russiagate, and Putin was telling the truth.
- 400,000 dead Ukrainians.
- Zelensky is buying up properties in Europe.
- Those in the Ukrainian government living it up at the Globe Club in Switzerland.
- The Ukrainian economy has been going down at a rate of 8% a year.
- Russia is now the biggest economy in Europe overtaking Germany.
- Germany has gotten killed economically.
- Moscow metro system is nice.[/QUOTE]If you wonder whether ANY of Elvis' musings here are truthful, the answer is yes. Yes, I admit it!
Moscow metro is pretty nice and efficient.
Probably not much nicer or more efficient than Montreal, Berlin, London, Paris, Tokyo, Washington, DC, and -- deep breath -- even Rio or SP, but it's really pretty good. Especially that no one today remembers that it was built on the bones of thousands of workers including GULAG prisoners sacrificed by Stalin so he could faster demonstrate his masterpiece to the world.
Everything else is a lie.
And I mean everything.
Of course, Elvis could prove me wrong by providing [B]legitimate[/B] sources to back up his j'accuse's. But he won't 'cause he has none.
The end.
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2894195]In the mean time, Tucker Carlson shot this video of the Russian subway system and compared it to those in the West. [URL]https://twitter.com/i/status/1757901280830505037[/URL].
[/QUOTE]Kind of hard to listen to TC. Moscow is not Russia.
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2894195]Yeah, the intelligence agencies lied their asses off about Russiagate, and Putin was telling the truth, so your whole narrative of Putin as dishonest and we are honest blows up in your face.
That is not going to happen. What do you propose besides peace with Putin? 400,000 dead Ukrainians is not enough for you? You know the average soldier in Ukraine is pushing 45 years old? That people in Ukraine are opposing and protesting the drafting of men to fight in this war? That the wealthy in Ukraine left town before the war started? That guys on here have seen those in the Ukrainian government living it up at the Globe Club in Switzerland and Zelensky is buying up properties in Europe? That the Ukrainian economy has been going down at a rate of 8% a year?
This war was supposed to hurt Russia. Well, Russia is now the biggest economy in Europe overtaking Germany. Germany has gotten killed economically because they are paying through the nose for expensive nonRussian natural gas, and other nations have had to bear the burden of Ukrainian refugees..[/QUOTE]Great post, but I am afraid the number of dead Ukraine soldiers is pushing 500,000 or more, add in the the critically wounded you are looking at 1.2-1.5 million. Just horrible.
Russia is way stronger than before the war, including there economy. The Euro's and West economies are in shambles. Great job, Democrats.
LOL I come back 2 years later to this forum and the drama continues.
I said Russia will prevail and Ukraine will lose.
If you have any brains and common sense, you would know this to be true.
The usual suspects (the pro Ukraine nerds haha) claimed Ukraine would push Russia out by end of 2022 lmao.
And that the Russian economy would collapse.
Well well, none of that happened, did it nerds, you nerds know who you are.
The same dummies that kept saying Ukraine will win.
The reality is Russia will never lose any of the land it has taken control of.
For following reasons.
1. Russia is far more powerful.
2, the areas were formerly in history, Russian lands, so Russia would probably fight to nuclear war for its historic lands.
3, and DUH its full of majority of Russians, so DUH nerds, you have a populace friendly to the Russian army and government.
Its very difficult controlling lands when the populace hates you.
That's why Russia has no interest in the Baltics and Poland for example.
It doesn't strengthen them at all.
The reality is.
The Russian economy is stronger now, sorry nerds its true.
The Ukraine economy is destroyed, the world now pays its bills, total welfare state now.
All the young men have been slaughtered because of some fat heads that didn't want to negotiate (the nerds will have a heart attack on this one).
The world will quit funding this war probably as soon as 2025.
Ukraine will be a ghost town until a real peace deal is done, sorry no capital will come to Ukraine until a real solid peace deal is signed by all sides.
If the west persists in this slaughter, there will be no men left under age of 40 left in Ukraine in next 2 years, ruined for a generation.
Who you going to rebuild the country with? 60 yr old fogeys?
Every pretty girl over 18 will leave Ukraine as no young men to marry.
The end of mongering forever, they will flood the country with immigrants on the west side of Ukraine for cheap labour and young men.
This country will never be the same as the Ukraine I enjoyed from 2010 to 2017.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2894411]Russia is way stronger than before the war, including there economy.[/QUOTE]Have you tried buying eggs there?
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2894195]Yeah, the intelligence agencies lied their asses off about Russiagate, and Putin was telling the truth, so your whole narrative of Putin as dishonest and we are honest blows up in your face.[/QUOTE]Putin and his cronies explicitly said they would not invade Ukraine only days before they did. Are you aware that Russian propaganda does not work outside of Russia?
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2894195]That is not going to happen.[/QUOTE]Why not. Putin is commander in chief, he can withdraw any time he chooses.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2894511]Have you tried buying eggs there?[/QUOTE]Yes tucker Carlson did and it was good he says.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2894380][URL]https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/european-powers-warn-spike-russian-propaganda-before-eu-elections-2024-02-12/[/URL]
If you wonder whether ANY of Elvis' musings here are truthful, the answer is yes. Yes, I admit it!
Everything else is a lie.
And I mean everything.
Of course, Elvis could prove me wrong by providing [B]legitimate[/B] sources to back up his j'accuse's. But he won't 'cause he has none.
The end.[/QUOTE]The end? What the fuck is your plan? Keep sending billions to Ukraine so millions can somehow be funneled back to Democrats and just ignore all the bodies piling up? Oh, yeah, you all care so much about Ukraine.
Guess the source on this, dummy:
After Russia invaded Ukraine in 2022, Western nations imposed the most extensive sanctions and trade restrictions in history on Moscow. Today, Russia appears to be doing OK.
Its economy is growing steadily. Russia can't buy much from the West but has found new providers for drones, surveillance gear, computer chips and other gear. Its oil and gas sales are still strong, despite attempts to stop them. Russian officials say they have plenty of money to pay for their war.
Moscow's continued strength is a humbling result for the USA And its allies. These nations make up more than half of the global economy, and they tried to weaponize their influence over trade and finance to weaken Russia. They hoped to make President Vladimir Putin a pariah and maybe even stop the war. Today, I'll explain why those efforts have fallen short and whether they can be made to work again.
The measures against Russia go far beyond traditional sanctions, which historically have targeted banks and elites. Those rules limit how much tech Russia can import, and they direct shipping companies and insurers to cap the price of Russia's oil at $60 per barrel well below market rate.
He sanctions took a toll. They raised the cost of many items for Russian civilians and forced the military to buy shoddier missiles and semiconductors. For Russian energy companies like Gazprom and Rosneft, exports to the West have plunged. But the Russian economy has proved surprisingly adaptable, thanks partly to its relationship with China.
It may seem surprising that Russia could so quickly replace so much of its trade with the USA, Japan and the E. You. But the rest of the global economy especially China's is large enough that the shift didn't take long. China already makes much of what Russia needs and can buy much of what it sells. Trade between China and Russia hit a record high last year as Russians turned to Chinese cars, electronics and weapons components. "China has to a large extent blunted the pain," said Eswar Prasad, a trade economist at Cornell University.
Another change has been the rise of a network of shipping companies, insurers and oil traders that does not answer to Western rules. This network, based in countries like China, India and the United Arab Emirates, has expanded since the war began to provide new channels for Russian oil. Thanks to this shadow fleet, Russia can get around the Western price cap on its oil by using shipping companies that don't comply with it. And Russians are still getting TVs, chips and cellphones through traders in Central Asia and the Middle East who buy them from the West and sell them at a markup.
The West chose not to put in place some tough measures, such as a full oil embargo, for fear they could disrupt the global economy. Unlike some nations the USA Has penalized before think of Cuba, Iran and Venezuela Russia is better integrated into world trade. It exports commodities other countries need, such as steel and fertilizer. And it still provides much of Europe's energy. Pain aimed at Russia would be felt well beyond its borders.
Finally, the newest sanctions the ones that try to constrain Russia's access to technology and its oil sales have not been as effective. The USA Wields much less influence over these sectors than it does over the banking sector, which is tethered to the dollar. The new measures, imposed in 2022, made it harder and more expensive for Russia to do business abroad. But they haven't wounded its economy enough to make most Russians question the war. "The mood in Russia is, the whole world is against us, but we are managing quite well," said Maria Snegovaya, a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.
USA Officials acknowledge all this. Still, they say they imposed costs that other nations will have to weigh before violating international law. Officials call that a win, even if the measures didn't send Russia into a recession or end the war.
Putin sees it differently. "The instruments and the policies of the United States are ineffective," Putin bragged during his interview last week with Tucker Carlson, according to a Russian government translator.
He is surely not the only leader to notice the USA Failure to cripple Russia. When China wants to menace Taiwan or India wants to assassinate perceived enemies on foreign soil, they will know that Washington couldn't turn Russia into a pariah when it broke the rules. In that way, sanctions in Russia have exposed the limits of USA Power.
QAnon? Epoch Times? Zero Hedge? He he.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2894514]Why not. Putin is commander in chief, he can withdraw any time he chooses.[/QUOTE]Sure, why not? And for fairness sake, Biden can give California back to Mexico and the Midwest back to native Americans.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2894411]Great post, but I am afraid the number of dead Ukraine soldiers is pushing 500,000 or more, add in the the critically wounded you are looking at 1.2-1.5 million. Just horrible.
Russia is way stronger than before the war, including there economy. The Euro's and West economies are in shambles. Great job, Democrats.[/QUOTE]And like six million people have left the country. You do not return from this. The real reason is why. With Ukrainegate, we were able to look into who was actually really running Ukraine, and it turns out it really was a bunch of Soros backed NGOs. Yeah, nongovernment organizations is practically code for saying they are government backed. What we are seeing is a lot of government capture. The "charitable" Gates foundation runs the World Health Organization or WHO. The CDC and FDA are being run by drug companies.
I went back and looked at the whole biolabs in Ukraine thing here: [URL]https://greenwald.substack.com/p/victoria-nuland-ukraine-has-biological[/URL].
The Russian Foreign Ministry asserted that "Russia obtained documents proving that Ukrainian biological laboratories located near Russian borders worked on development of components of biological weapons. ".
Basically, Mario Rubio, a Republican, asked about bioweapons in Ukraine, and he expected "fuck the EU" Victoria Nuland to say there were not any. Instead she said that the USA was funding biolabs in Ukraine but they were research facilities.
You know one of the funny things about bureaucrats in our government is how little respect they have for foreign lives. It took the Australian press to uncover a video clip where Fauci said you do not put biological research facilities in Hoboken, NJ. You put them in China. That whole gain of function denial is semantics. That is exactly what he was talking about.
I guess I wonder why the Democrats and intelligence agencies who control them care so much about Ukraine. They do not give a fuck about the Ukrainians at all. That was a joke. And Zelensky got rid of Democracy there so the "fight for Democracy line" is done. The Russians taking over Europe and Putin as Hitler is as off now as it ever has was. Every time the military industrial conflict wants war they go back to the domino theory.
Obama said if Russia invaded Ukraine we would not help Ukraine as we had no vital interests there. Well, what changed? It makes you wonder right. Tucker Carlson wondered too. Well, I think this may be the one country on earth that is so corrupt that USA intelligence agencies and bureaucrats can do whatever they want.
When Biden got that AG fired, I think his name was Shokin who was looking into Burisma, he showed all of Ukraine who was running things and it was not Ukrainian politicians. That country has been run by Democrats and American bureaucrats and NGOs, and that probably is why Putin had to invade. I do not buy at all the blanket denials on biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons. Not at all.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2894514]Are you aware that Russian propaganda does not work outside of Russia?[/QUOTE]Oh man, I wish it were true. Unfortunately, there are thousands if not millions of deranged trumpists, who are incredibly susceptible to Russian propaganda. Just look at our pal Elvis here. The term 'useful idiots' was coined by then Soviet KGB especially for ideological junkies like him.
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2894577]Sure, why not? And for fairness sake, Biden can give California back to Mexico and the Midwest back to native Americans.[/QUOTE]Can you explain what you mean by fairness?
The point you have repeatedly chosen to ignore, is that Putin can leave Ukraine at any time he wishes, but does not. If he did that, the war would immediately end and talks could take place for some kind of settlement.
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2894576]The end? What the fuck is your plan? [/QUOTE]That's it? I present you with a list of your lies and you reply with an article that lists western countermeasures against the aggression?
Well, that's an admission Elvis. No better way to say yes I lied, but here is an article you might find useful.
Thank you, thank you very much!
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2894628]Oh man, I wish it were true. Unfortunately, there are thousands if not millions of deranged trumpists, who are incredibly susceptible to Russian propaganda. Just look at our pal Elvis here. The term 'useful idiots' was coined by then Soviet KGB especially for ideological junkies like him.[/QUOTE]Russian propaganda is plenty effective in the Western World. And that's one reason why we see next to no source citations from their defenders here, as we'd be led to fringe right websites, blogs, YouTubes, social media posts, or straight to Russian media itself. But it's truly the Wild Wild West in journalism, absent any responsible editorial policy that was common in the last century. People who boast that they "stopped listening to mainstream media" are typically drinking from a cistern of far right lies among varieties of unsubstantiated conspriacy theories. Where it all leads no one knows, but Fascism hasn't been so popular since the 1930's and leading up the WW II, though the bizarre underpinnings of today are unprecedented.
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2894919]Russian propaganda is plenty effective in the Western World. And that's one reason why we see next to no source citations from their defenders here, as we'd be led to fringe right websites, blogs, YouTubes, social media posts, or straight to Russian media itself. But it's truly the Wild Wild West in journalism, absent any responsible editorial policy that was common in the last century. People who boast that they "stopped listening to mainstream media" are typically drinking from a cistern of far right lies among varieties of unsubstantiated conspriacy theories. Where it all leads no one knows, but Fascism hasn't been so popular since the 1930's and leading up the WW II, though the bizarre underpinnings of today are unprecedented.[/QUOTE]Maybe if the USA weren't such a shithole for the past 20 years people wouldn't be listening to Russian propaganda.
[QUOTE=EnterTheV;2895111]Maybe if the USA weren't such a shithole for the past 20 years people wouldn't be listening to Russian propaganda.[/QUOTE]These are the same people who totally were duped by American propaganda on Russiagate and Covid. Now they are claiming to be so, so smart on the Ukraine War and Russian propaganda. We now have been shown intelligence documents saying the Russians were perfectly comfortable with Hiliary Clinton and not slobbering all over Trump as we were led to believe. Still these same people claiming to be so smart with sniffing out propaganda STILL believe Russiagate was true.
[QUOTE=EnterTheV;2895111]Maybe if the USA weren't such a shithole for the past 20 years people wouldn't be listening to Russian propaganda.[/QUOTE]It seems that your main hobby here is bitching about the US in different threads. If America is not to your liking get out and live happily ever after. What's stopping you?
People are way too prone to get into a virtual political dick comparison contest here man. Can we get back to the actually important topic which is cheap Ukrainian pussy?
I went in 2017. Back then you could have some hot and young semi pros (really gorgeous students) for 1500-2000 for an hour but you had to search around quite a bit, it was very very inconvenient for a short trip.
Escort sites and full on hookers in some of the bigger clubs were more expensive and not as yummy.
How is the landscape in 2024?
Yes war and all but idgaf, I want cheap slavic pussy and coming from Germany (yes we have tons here but the quality is atrocious and its 50 euro for 15 min with no kissing, DATY, BBBJ, etc.) With extras and enough time you end up paying 200 euros nowadays for a hot girl and even then they tend to rush you alot and service is just not great.
So I am looking to Eastern Europe for a short 4-5 day trip before I do the big leap in May to Central / South America.
So to get back to original question. Still plenty of pussy in the 2000 UAH price range? And how best to find them?
[QUOTE=Argo1990;2903586]So I am looking to Eastern Europe for a short 4-5 day trip before I do the big leap in May to Central / South America.
So to get back to original question. Still plenty of pussy in the 2000 UAH price range? And how best to find them?[/QUOTE]You need to look on Keksik, but I would say that the quality starts at 3000 UAH. There are plenty around, and you should be able to arrange many meets during a 4 day trip.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2903588]You need to look on Keksik, but I would say that the quality starts at 3000 UAH. There are plenty around, and you should be able to arrange many meets during a 4 day trip.[/QUOTE]Cheers for the tip. I did not know Keksik yet, used relax Kiev previously and alot of Mamba. Seems prices have gone up quite abit. There are some Telegram groups were girls advertise and the starting rate is 3000. Thats like the absolutely cheapest. Going aaaaalllll the way to 10 k UAH.
Now I am not sure what the logic is behind this pricing (price overcorrection as the war continues or is it because there is simply less pussy that remained in Ukraine and most other working girls got sponsored up and "saved from the war" by western europeans?
Now 3-4 k I would accept for 1 hour full service, anything beyond that and expenses including flight as well as hotel are no longer worth it as that already almost hits Western EU prices.
For reference in Germany one can still get some halfway decent girls for 150€ per hour (although alot of girls seem to be increasing to 200 nowadays as well) but for 6-7 k UAH why the fuck would I fly to Kiev then?
9-10 k for a girl from Harem, Dolls or Princess before Tues. War sounds about right for "all night" which is really 8 hours. I never bothered to ask for the prices for lesser amounts of time because I only took girls I have chemistry and good convo with but they are available you just need to ask. I think the min is 2 or 3 hrs.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2903588]You need to look on Keksik, but I would say that the quality starts at 3000 UAH. There are plenty around, and you should be able to arrange many meets during a 4 day trip.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Argo1990;2903986]
For reference in Germany one can still get some halfway decent girls for 150 per hour (although alot of girls seem to be increasing to 200 nowadays as well) but for 6-7 k UAH why the fuck would I fly to Kiev then?[/QUOTE]I'd go even further and wonder why at all fly to a country at war for pussy. Aren't Slavic girls everywhere nowadays including Germany (with an added bonus of zero air raid sirens at night)?
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2904184]I'd go even further and wonder why at all fly to a country at war for pussy. Aren't Slavic girls everywhere nowadays including Germany (with an added bonus of zero air raid sirens at night)?[/QUOTE]Yep, makes zero sense. I have never understood the delusion and fantasy world, that the Internet has created about Ukraine. It's been bad for over 10 years now. It was bad before the war, but the Internet portrays a different world.
The hot girls have been gone for years.
But buying from the source / where they're made is really appealing. I swear there's a supermodel on every corner in Kyiv. Too bad the putz to the east is denying us our God given right to seek it out.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2904184]I'd go even further and wonder why at all fly to a country at war for pussy. Aren't Slavic girls everywhere nowadays including Germany (with an added bonus of zero air raid sirens at night)?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=FilthyBeaver;2904337]But buying from the source / where they're made is really appealing. I swear there's a supermodel on every corner in Kyiv. Too bad the putz to the east is denying us our God given right to seek it out.[/QUOTE]Totally agree with this, service is always better on their own territory, and in Kyiv they are just ridiculously hot. It's a pleasure just walking around the city, so many beautiful women everywhere.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2904460]Totally agree with this, service is always better on their own territory, and in Kyiv they are just ridiculously hot. It's a pleasure just walking around the city, so many beautiful women everywhere.[/QUOTE][URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4EMXvCF8Ns[/URL]
I just watched this guys video and felt sick. He made a horrible joke to Ukrainians and doesn't know it.
[QUOTE=Riina;2905594][URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4EMXvCF8Ns[/URL]
I just watched this guys video and felt sick. He made a horrible joke to Ukrainians and doesn't know it.[/QUOTE]I prefer the evidence of my own experiences. When I have been there, and I was there recently, the people were pleasant as always, and the girls were gorgeous everywhere I turned.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2905723]I prefer the evidence of my own experiences. When I have been there, and I was there recently, the people were pleasant as always, and the girls were gorgeous everywhere I turned.[/QUOTE]In the middle of a war, people are pleasant and happy. You are truly living in Fantasy world. Hot girls everywhere, you are in serious denial.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2891928]LOL, as a true 'nostradamus' I'll say this.
While the West seems to be tired and in disarray right now, the last quarter of 2024 will break this pattern. Trump and the Reps (the last Putin's hope) will lose miserably, the military aid to Ukraine will resume in spades, and not only will the Third Rome (or Fourth Reich, as some would call it more accurately) eventually return to the borders of 1991 -- it'll start devouring itself from the inside until it finally shrinks into a much smaller (and hopefully more peaceful) normally-sized country.
Till then, Ukraine must hold on, since you're absolutely right -- they don't have another choice.[/QUOTE]So the first part (resumption of the US military aid) has almost come true, much earlier than I anticipated.
And the last 6 months have proved that Ukraine can stand on its own even with Russia's artillery advantage of 6-10 to 1, denying the aggressor any significant gains and making them pay in tens of thousands of dead and crippled Russian solders for every village and township they've managed to "conquer" so far.
In the meantime, Ukraine keeps destroying the Russian Navy and hitting military targets and fuel refineries deep inside Russia reducing aggressor's economic means needed to finance the war.
The age of empires is gone.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2910420]So the first part (resumption of the US military aid) has almost come true, much earlier than I anticipated.
And the last 6 months have proved that Ukraine can stand on its own even with Russia's artillery advantage of 6-10 to 1, denying the aggressor any significant gains and making them pay in tens of thousands of dead and crippled Russian solders for every village and township they've managed to "conquer" so far.
In the meantime, Ukraine keeps destroying the Russian Navy and hitting military targets and fuel refineries deep inside Russia reducing aggressor's economic means needed to finance the war.
The age of empires is gone.[/QUOTE]You truly live in a fantasy world.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2910420]So the first part (resumption of the US military aid) has almost come true, much earlier than I anticipated.
And the last 6 months have proved that Ukraine can stand on its own even with Russia's artillery advantage of 6-10 to 1, denying the aggressor any significant gains and making them pay in tens of thousands of dead and crippled Russian solders for every village and township they've managed to "conquer" so far.
In the meantime, Ukraine keeps destroying the Russian Navy and hitting military targets and fuel refineries deep inside Russia reducing aggressor's economic means needed to finance the war.
The age of empires is gone.[/QUOTE]And what difference will this 61 bil package make? Nada, zero, zilch.
Western hegemony is gone.
The following has more truth in it than literally the stupid shit coming out of the mouth of the arm chair enemy:
[URL]https://youtu.be/duPBb1ftpsM?si=axquBj_A2cyakpry[/URL]
[QUOTE=Riina;2910563]And what difference will this 61 bil package make? Nada, zero, zilch.
Western hegemony is gone.[/QUOTE]You're right.
The Russians are way more effective than American billions could ever be.
[QUOTE]Russia drops 21 bombs on itself in huge humiliation for Putin as casualties remain mystery.[/QUOTE][URL]https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-drops-21-bombs-on-itself-in-huge-humiliation-for-putin-as-casualties-remain-mystery/ar-AA1nw21e?rc=1&ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=ef0356eed83a4784bcc9b8e87893266f&ei=13[/URL]
Keep up a good work!
[QUOTE=Riina;2910563]And what difference will this 61 bil package make? Nada, zero, zilch.[/QUOTE]Let's wait and see. That kind of money buys a heck of a lot of things that will absolutely destroy the Russians. Not to mention the ongoing aid that is increasing from the European states. The coming period will be very interesting to see.
QUOTE=Riina;2910563 And what difference will this 61 bil package make? Nada, zero, zilch.
QUOTE.
[URL]https://www.economist.com/leaders/2024/04/24/congress-has-given-ukraine-a-reprieve-with-its-new-aid-package[/URL]
America's latest aid will give Ukraine only a temporary reprieve.
Russia has historically been willing to absorb tremendous casualties for political causes. What Mr Putin doesn't understand is this isn't history, this is today. The generation fighting are accustomed to the internet, free thought, and personal freedoms the previous generations (including his) were not. He's only in control because he has a very effective propaganda machine and still has enough following at the lower levels of local government to stiffel any amount of social disorder.
The aid will not end the war. The aid will slow the Russians down tremendously but the end will only come when the will of NATO to prop-up Ukraine fades or when Putin is gone. As an American I'm sad to say the issue has become more political than pragmatic and is being held hostage by a small number of legislators with very big mouths. The fact of the matter is at least 1/3 of the money we spend to support Ukraine is directly funding production of weapons in our massive defense industrial complex so it's basically going right back into our economy in the form of wages and taxes. There isn't an intelligent legislator that would fight that (unfortunately there are plenty of unintelligent legislators).
Having been all over Ukraine and seen the contrast between a very Ukrainian city like Lviv (where you never hear Russian being spoken) and a resort town like Odessa (where Russian is spoken out in the open everywhere, at least before the war). I think I can say they're just as stubborn as the Russians, have proven themselves resourceful and ingenious with what they have, and employ clever tactics. Add that to fact that they are fighting for their very existence I think they have a very good chance of ending this with their heads held high. At a minimum, Russia will never control Ukrainian territory. Partisans will run a gorilla war against them for decades with plenty of help from the CIA using its black budgets that don't get scrutinized like everything else that goes through congress. If Ukraine "looses" Russia will have created Afghanistan for themselves all over again which is sad because Putin was alive for that Russian nightmare and there will be a lot of young hot slavs that get killed which breaks my heart.
This is ISG after all.
[QUOTE=Jojosun;2911021]QUOTE=Riina;2910563 And what difference will this 61 bil package make? Nada, zero, zilch.
QUOTE.
[URL]https://www.economist.com/leaders/2024/04/24/congress-has-given-ukraine-a-reprieve-with-its-new-aid-package[/URL]
America's latest aid will give Ukraine only a temporary reprieve.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Jojosun;2911021]QUOTE=Riina;2910563 And what difference will this 61 bil package make? Nada, zero, zilch.
QUOTE.
[URL]https://www.economist.com/leaders/2024/04/24/congress-has-given-ukraine-a-reprieve-with-its-new-aid-package[/URL]
America's latest aid will give Ukraine only a temporary reprieve.[/QUOTE]"Temporary" is all Ukraine needs.
What the Economist and other intellectuals fail to understand is that Putin can't keep it up indefinitely. He's already spending over 40% of Russia's entire budget on waging his war of choice. America and the West have the money. He, on the other hand, will spend his way into oblivion.
QUOTE=JojosunQUOTE=Riina;2910563 And what difference will this 61 bil package make? Nada, zero, zilch.
QUOTE.
[URL]https://www.economist.comlea[/URL]ders /2024/04/24/ congress-has-given-ukraine-a-reprieve-with-its-new-aid-package.
America's latest aid will give Ukraine only a temporary reprieve. QUOTE.
Let's hear what The War Analyst have to say?
'War analysts say Ukraine should treat the latest US aid package like it's the last one it'll get'.
[URL]https://africa.businessinsider.com/military-and-defense/war-analysts-say-ukraine-should-treat-the-latest-us-aid-package-like-its-the-last-one/t6bmrq2[/URL]
[QUOTE=FilthyBeaver;2911229]Russia has historically been willing to absorb tremendous casualties for political causes. What Mr Putin doesn't understand is this isn't history, this is today. The generation fighting are accustomed to the internet, free thought, and personal freedoms the previous generations (including his) were not. He's only in control because he has a very effective propaganda machine and still has enough following at the lower levels of local government to stiffel any amount of social disorder.
The aid will not end the war. The aid will slow the Russians down tremendously but the end will only come when the will of NATO to prop-up Ukraine fades or when Putin is gone. As an American I'm sad to say the issue has become more political than pragmatic and is being held hostage by a small number of legislators with very big mouths. The fact of the matter is at least 1/3 of the money we spend to support Ukraine is directly funding production of weapons in our massive defense industrial complex so it's basically going right back into our economy in the form of wages and taxes. There isn't an intelligent legislator that would fight that (unfortunately there are plenty of unintelligent legislators).
Having been all over Ukraine and seen the contrast between a very Ukrainian city like Lviv (where you never hear Russian being spoken) and a resort town like Odessa (where Russian is spoken out in the open everywhere, at least before the war). I think I can say they're just as stubborn as the Russians, have proven themselves resourceful and ingenious with what they have, and employ clever tactics. Add that to fact that they are fighting for their very existence I think they have a very good chance of ending this with their heads held high. At a minimum, Russia will never control Ukrainian territory. Partisans will run a gorilla war against them for decades with plenty of help from the CIA using its black budgets that don't get scrutinized like everything else that goes through congress. If Ukraine "looses" Russia will have created Afghanistan for themselves all over again which is sad because Putin was alive for that Russian nightmare and there will be a lot of young hot slavs that get killed which breaks my heart.
This is ISG after all.[/QUOTE]Great analyses. I'd only argue that the Ukrainians are more stubborn than the Russians, maybe because unlike the Russians, they're defending their homeland. The Russians are forced into relentless waves of what they call "meat assaults" by their commanders, and the only reason they keep fighting is because they're scared of their own bosses more than they are of the Ukrainians (and for a good reason too).
Moscow's 'meat wave' tactic litters Ukraine battlefield with frozen corpses of Russian troops.
[URL]https://nypost.com/2024/01/23/news/moscows-meat-wave-tactic-litters-ukraine-battlefield-with-frozen-corpses-of-russian-troops/[/URL]
'They're Just Choosing Where To Die. ' When Russia's Poorly-Trained Stormtroopers Retreat, Russian Barrier Troops Gun Them Down.
[URL]https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2024/01/18/theyre-just-choosing-where-to-die-when-russias-poorly-trained-stormtroopers-retreat-russian-barrier-troops-gun-them-down/?sh=1bf7852375a0[/URL]
At some point though, sheepish as they are, Russian grunts will have enough and embark on slitting the throats of their officers and deserting en mass. That's how the Russian Civil War came around -- the one that claimed at least 10 million lives.
And mass desertions, by the way, have already started.
Russian Military Hit by Mass Desertions.
[URL]https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-troops-mobilization-desertion-problems-convictions-1881268[/URL]
[QUOTE=VinDici;2910675]Let's wait and see. That kind of money buys a heck of a lot of things that will absolutely destroy the Russians. Not to mention the ongoing aid that is increasing from the European states. The coming period will be very interesting to see.[/QUOTE]What you and many others do not seem to understand that this isn't a funding issue. Ukraine doesn't have the manpower anymore. You can't print soldiers. Does that make sense to you or not?
Furthermore, the collective West doesn't have the weapons in stock in the quantity that Ukraine needs.
It's over.
[QUOTE=Riina;2910563]And what difference will this 61 bil package make? Nada, zero, zilch.
Western hegemony is gone.[/QUOTE]Exactly. It will only postpone the inevitable, which is a Russian victory. But by postponing the inevitable, the collective west is just going to send tens of thousands of Ukrainian men (and women) to their graves. But anyone with a brain knows that the collective west doesn't give a shit about Ukrainians dying. Until the last Ukrainian, right? Disgusting. Make peace now you fools!
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2910420]So the first part (resumption of the US military aid) has almost come true, much earlier than I anticipated.
And the last 6 months have proved that Ukraine can stand on its own even with Russia's artillery advantage of 6-10 to 1, denying the aggressor any significant gains and making them pay in tens of thousands of dead and crippled Russian solders for every village and township they've managed to "conquer" so far.
In the meantime, Ukraine keeps destroying the Russian Navy and hitting military targets and fuel refineries deep inside Russia reducing aggressor's economic means needed to finance the war.
The age of empires is gone.[/QUOTE]So tell me, has Ukraine retaken Crimea? Did they reach to the sea of Azov after taking Robotnye during their FAILED counter offensive last year? Was the land bridge severed? You are delusional. But reality will soon catch up with you mate. And then you'll just make excuses.
Ukrainians fighting for these existence is definitely a huge plus for them. We need to be clear though. Ethnic "Russians" aren't dying enmass (unless you want to talk about the prisoners they let out to be cannon fodder). It's the tartars and other poor central Asian "Russians" that are being ground into meat. If they were plucking kids from Moscow or St Petersburg and sending them to the front, even Putin wouldn't survive the backlash.
Ukraine is outmanned for sure but the gorilla war they will rage if they lose conventionaly with send the Russians back to Moscow just like the Afghan tribes did in the 80's (with our help, BTW). They can't win over time. Putin didn't learn a damn thing.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2911405]Great analyses. I'd only argue that the Ukrainians are more stubborn than the Russians, maybe because unlike the Russians, they're defending their homeland. The Russians are forced into relentless waves of what they call "meat assaults" by their commanders, and the only reason they keep fighting is because they're scared of their own bosses more than they are of the Ukrainians (and for a good reason too).
Moscow's 'meat wave' tactic litters Ukraine battlefield with frozen corpses of Russian troops.
[URL]https://nypost.com/2024/01/23/news/moscows-meat-wave-tactic-litters-ukraine-battlefield-with-frozen-corpses-of-russian-troops/[/URL]
'They're Just Choosing Where To Die. ' When Russia's Poorly-Trained Stormtroopers Retreat, Russian Barrier Troops Gun Them Down.
[URL]https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2024/01/18/theyre-just-choosing-where-to-die-when-russias-poorly-trained-stormtroopers-retreat-russian-barrier-troops-gun-them-down/?sh=1bf7852375a0[/URL]
At some point though, sheepish as they are, Russian grunts will have enough and embark on slitting the throats of their officers and deserting en mass. That's how the Russian Civil War came around -- the one that claimed at least 10 million lives.
And mass desertions, by the way, have already started.
Russian Military Hit by Mass Desertions.
[URL]https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-troops-mobilization-desertion-problems-convictions-1881268[/URL][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2912505]So tell me, has Ukraine retaken Crimea? Did they reach to the sea of Azov after taking Robotnye during their FAILED counter offensive last year? Was the land bridge severed? You are delusional. But reality will soon catch up with you mate. And then you'll just make excuses.[/QUOTE]You're a funny guy. It's as if Dr. Goebbels asked on the radio in the winter of 1942:
- So has Russia taken back Kyiv?
- Have they broken the siege of Leningrad?
- Have they retaken Crimea?
But oh my, what a difference a couple of years can make!
So like you said, reality will soon catch up with you, and it won't be pretty.
The Evil Empire is doomed this time, and the Ukrainians are the straw that will have broken the camel's back.
[QUOTE=FilthyBeaver;2912597]
Ukraine is outmanned for sure but the gorilla war they will rage if they lose conventionaly with send the Russians back to Moscow just like the Afghan tribes did in the 80's (with our help, BTW). They can't win over time. Putin didn't learn a damn thing.[/QUOTE]That's like comparing apples and oranges. Ukraine isn't Afghanistan, to compare the 2 scenarios is ridiculous. No doubt the collective west will sponsor an insurgency, but Ukraine is never getting Crimea or the 4 new territories back, ever.
[QUOTE=FilthyBeaver;2912597]Ukrainians fighting for these existence is definitely a huge plus for them. We need to be clear though. Ethnic "Russians" aren't dying enmass (unless you want to talk about the prisoners they let out to be cannon fodder). It's the tartars and other poor central Asian "Russians" that are being ground into meat. If they were plucking kids from Moscow or St Petersburg and sending them to the front, even Putin wouldn't survive the backlash.
Ukraine is outmanned for sure but the gorilla war they will rage if they lose conventionaly with send the Russians back to Moscow just like the Afghan tribes did in the 80's (with our help, BTW). They can't win over time. Putin didn't learn a damn thing.[/QUOTE]You're right that Putin's henchmen are trying to avoid drafting too many Moscovites, but the Russians from other regions (including ethnic Russians) do a lot of dying still. Every regional head has their quotas, and they don't have a 'luxury' to draft 'non-Russians" only. The only Putin's ally who doesn't have to pull his weight in terms of the quotas is Chechnya's Kadyrov due to his special relationship with the boss.
Also, I must say I'm a little more optimistic. I don't think Putin has a chance to make such substantial territorial gains that the gorilla war will become the only option for resistance. He's bound to run out of time and man power despite the propaganda and poker face.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2912658]You're a funny guy. It's as if Dr. Goebbels asked on the radio in the winter of 1942:
- So has Russia taken back Kyiv?
- Have they broken the siege of Leningrad?
- Have they retaken Crimea?
But oh my, what a difference a couple of years can make!
So like you said, reality will soon catch up with you, and it won't be pretty.
The Evil Empire is doomed this time, and the Ukrainians are the straw that will have broken the camel's back.[/QUOTE]Good luck.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2912776]Good luck.[/QUOTE]BloodResd, XMan lives in a fantasy world, do not pay attention to him. I honestly think he believes war is a Video Game, and you can just re-set when you are losing.
Ukraine was played by the west and the Euros, what a waste.
Ukraine never had a chance, they could have gotten decent deal at the beginning, but they choose to push there luck. Now they will end up with almost nothing, and if they do not surrender quickly the will lose everything. Those that are crazy enough to believe Ukraine will be able to continue with a guerrilla war are in.
In complete denial.
Nobody is going to change anyone's mind but are you guys not aware of history? Our Vietnam, their Afghanistan. Far superior forces lost a war of attrition to a much less powerful force over the course of a decade. Russia went in to support a soviet friendly government that was largely unpopular, the only difference between then and now is the the Ukrainians already threw out the Russian friendly government. Guess what happens in about 10 years from now? Putin will be dead, do you think the next guy wants this headache, that he didn't start? I believe putin was driving a cab around the time the afghan war was winding down so maybe he didn't have the time to grab a newspaper and learn something. Then again the info was all state controlled so maybe I can't blame him for being ignorant here.
I generally agree that it will be very difficult if not impossible for Ukraine to get any of the seized land back and I doubt very seriously that it can be done militarily but it is absolutely possible politically. As Ukrainian special forces establish guerilla tactics on land, the Russians will get tired of dying over time. They have already, very successfully, rendered the black sea fleet useless. Why couldn't they do the same on the ground? When you're fighting for your very existence you can do a lot more than the side that has no idea why it's there. The CIA thrives in proping up local governments in situations like this. The Ukrainians will get all they need to make Russians in the occupied territory miserable for as long as they want.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2912830]BloodResd, XMan lives in a fantasy world, do not pay attention to him. I honestly think he believes war is a Video Game, and you can just re-set when you are losing.
Ukraine was played by the west and the Euros, what a waste.
Ukraine never had a chance, they could have gotten decent deal at the beginning, but they choose to push there luck. Now they will end up with almost nothing, and if they do not surrender quickly the will lose everything. Those that are crazy enough to believe Ukraine will be able to continue with a guerrilla war are in.
In complete denial.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=FilthyBeaver;2913001]Nobody is going to change anyone's mind but are you guys not aware of history? Our Vietnam, their Afghanistan. Far superior forces lost a war of attrition to a much less powerful force over the course of a decade. Russia went in to support a soviet friendly government that was largely unpopular, the only difference between then and now is the the Ukrainians already threw out the Russian friendly government. Guess what happens in about 10 years from now? Putin will be dead, do you think the next guy wants this headache, that he didn't start? I believe putin was driving a cab around the time the afghan war was winding down so maybe he didn't have the time to grab a newspaper and learn something. Then again the info was all state controlled so maybe I can't blame him for being ignorant here.
I generally agree that it will be very difficult if not impossible for Ukraine to get any of the seized land back and I doubt very seriously that it can be done militarily but it is absolutely possible politically. As Ukrainian special forces establish guerilla tactics on land, the Russians will get tired of dying over time. They have already, very successfully, rendered the black sea fleet useless. Why couldn't they do the same on the ground? When you're fighting for your very existence you can do a lot more than the side that has no idea why it's there. The CIA thrives in proping up local governments in situations like this. The Ukrainians will get all they need to make Russians in the occupied territory miserable for as long as they want.[/QUOTE]The CIA and MI6 has failed miserably in Ukraine. The country is slowly being destroyed and taken over.
Any Guerrilla warfare will result in more death and destruction. Russia will not pay games with Ukraine, they will just take more lives and territory.
The current occupant of the Ukrainian presidency has been just added to the Wanted list by the Interior Ministry of the RF together with the former occupant and a bunch of others. Just a reminder, the present term of the presidency and all Rada are going to expire on May 21,2024 absent the elections.
It has been reported, true to the fact, that clowns and pole sportsmen (your striptease dancers) can dodge the newly Ukrainian draft as essential workers.
[QUOTE=FilthyBeaver;2913001]Nobody is going to change anyone's mind but are you guys not aware of history? Our Vietnam, their Afghanistan. Far superior forces lost a war of attrition to a much less powerful force over the course of a decade. Russia went in to support a soviet friendly government that was largely unpopular, the only difference between then and now is the the Ukrainians already threw out the Russian friendly government. Guess what happens in about 10 years from now? Putin will be dead, do you think the next guy wants this headache, that he didn't start? I believe putin was driving a cab around the time the afghan war was winding down so maybe he didn't have the time to grab a newspaper and learn something. Then again the info was all state controlled so maybe I can't blame him for being ignorant here.
I generally agree that it will be very difficult if not impossible for Ukraine to get any of the seized land back and I doubt very seriously that it can be done militarily but it is absolutely possible politically. As Ukrainian special forces establish guerilla tactics on land, the Russians will get tired of dying over time. They have already, very successfully, rendered the black sea fleet useless. Why couldn't they do the same on the ground? When you're fighting for your very existence you can do a lot more than the side that has no idea why it's there. The CIA thrives in proping up local governments in situations like this. The Ukrainians will get all they need to make Russians in the occupied territory miserable for as long as they want.[/QUOTE]Afghanistan and Eastern Ukraine are like I said apples and oranges. You also are ignoring the fact that Putin does NOT want to conquer all of Ukraine, despite what the pathetic main stream western media tells you. He is only interested in what is east of the Dniper + Odessa, all the territories that are historically Russian and have large numbers of ethnic speaking Russians. Now if he tried to conquer western Ukraine like Lviv, then I agree with you, he will face a fierce resistance. But he has no desire to cross the Dniper at this point other than to take Odessa.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2912830]BloodResd, XMan lives in a fantasy world, do not pay attention to him. I honestly think he believes war is a Video Game, and you can just re-set when you are losing.
Ukraine was played by the west and the Euros, what a waste.
Ukraine never had a chance, they could have gotten decent deal at the beginning, but they choose to push there luck. Now they will end up with almost nothing, and if they do not surrender quickly the will lose everything. Those that are crazy enough to believe Ukraine will be able to continue with a guerrilla war are in.
In complete denial.[/QUOTE]What I find astonishing that a lot of Pro Ukrainian folks still don't get some very basic things:
The collective west is interested in PUNISHING and hurting Russia, NOT in helping Ukraine win. Hell, Lloyd Austin said this in 2022, that America wanted to weaken Russia, he said nothing about Ukraine winning.
This is about feeding the military industrial complex using Ukrainians as cannon fodder. The western leaders have said so many times, shamelessly, that is is Ukrainians dying, not their people. These people are sick.
Ukraine CANNOT win this. They are out of manpower. The collective west doesn't have the weapons in the quantity that Ukraine needs, nor can they produce them in the amount that Ukraine needs. The longer this goes on, the more territory Ukraine will lose, and another generation of men will die for nothing. For Gods sake, talk peace for once.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2913205]Ukraine CANNOT win this. They are out of manpower.[/QUOTE]Excellent post. I see a lot of fresh Ukrainian men in my US city and it is sad to know sick bastards in the West are scheming how to get this fresh meat back to the motherland.
So his stated goal of removing nazis and being laughed out of bucha in the first few months were a dream of mine? I'm not pro anything, I'm looking at facts and correcting ignorance. How are removing the "nazi regime" and proping up a pro soviet government in Kabul different?
I can't wait to hear this answer.
He's only interested in what he's interested in now because his army turned out to be a paper tiger and he can only hope to hold these areas as he hasn't a prayer of taking the rest.
One of the things that came with my erectile dysfunction is age, experience, and living though a significant amount of history. Pick almost any conflict in history that ended in a war of attrition and I'll show you an aggressor that lost. If you don't understand this I can't help you.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2913203]Afghanistan and Eastern Ukraine are like I said apples and oranges. You also are ignoring the fact that Putin does NOT want to conquer all of Ukraine, despite what the pathetic main stream western media tells you. He is only interested in what is east of the Dniper + Odessa, all the territories that are historically Russian and have large numbers of ethnic speaking Russians. Now if he tried to conquer western Ukraine like Lviv, then I agree with you, he will face a fierce resistance. But he has no desire to cross the Dniper at this point other than to take Odessa.[/QUOTE]
It takes 2-3 years for intelligence services to do their own various assessments before they start funneling actionable tactical support. Up to now it's only been strategic. Give it another 6-12 months.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2913044]The CIA and MI6 has failed miserably in Ukraine. The country is slowly being destroyed and taken over.
Any Guerrilla warfare will result in more death and destruction. Russia will not pay games with Ukraine, they will just take more lives and territory.[/QUOTE]
Ukraine just can't win this war. It's running out of manpower. Just look at Ukraine's demographic chart. There are pretty much no military age men left. The US can throw as much billions of military aid they want, but the Abrahams and F16's aren't going to drive themselves. It will just prolong the pain and suffering before the inevitable defeat.
Ukraine should have taken the deal in 2022.
[QUOTE=FilthyBeaver;2913271]It takes 2-3 years for intelligence services to do their own various assessments before they start funneling actionable tactical support. Up to now it's only been strategic. Give it another 6-12 months.[/QUOTE]Wow! You are smoking the same crap XMan is smoking. The CIA and the MI6 have been causing problems in Ukraine for over 10 years now, probably longer. You guys are in serious denial, this is part of the reason for the war.
If you think foreign intelligence isn't involved in decapitating the black sea fleet you are badly mistaken. We won't know the whole story until 20-30 years after it's all over. A la hardy boys, air America, wind talkers, etc. Unfortunately I won't be around then. Give me an example of how the intelligence services are "causing problems. " No generalities, a real problem.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2913315]Wow! You are smoking the same crap XMan is smoking. The CIA and the MI6 have been causing problems in Ukraine for over 10 years now, probably longer. You guys are in serious denial, this is part of the reason for the war.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=FilthyBeaver;2913495]Give me an example of how the intelligence services are "causing problems. " [/QUOTE]Want examples? Just randomly throw a tart onto a world map.
Euromaidan and the whole series of subsequent dramas are the masterpiece of the Victoria Nuland gang and CIA's work. After ruining Ukraine they wanted to copypaste it in Hong Kong in 2019 and Belarus in 2020, but failed miserably.
And then those warpigs in Washington lecture you how Russia and China are aggressors.
[QUOTE=FilthyBeaver;2913267]So his stated goal of removing nazis and being laughed out of bucha in the first few months were a dream of mine? I'm not pro anything, I'm looking at facts and correcting ignorance. How are removing the "nazi regime" and proping up a pro soviet government in Kabul different?
I can't wait to hear this answer.
He's only interested in what he's interested in now because his army turned out to be a paper tiger and he can only hope to hold these areas as he hasn't a prayer of taking the rest.
One of the things that came with my erectile dysfunction is age, experience, and living though a significant amount of history. Pick almost any conflict in history that ended in a war of attrition and I'll show you an aggressor that lost. If you don't understand this I can't help you.[/QUOTE]You do not seem to be aware of the reasons why Putin launched the SMO. Before I list them, I just want to state that I really do not have a horse in this race. I'm neither Russian or Ukrainian. I am commenting purely from a neutral perspective, after getting fully aware of the facts because the western mainstream media is pure evil that just lies.
The reasons for launching the SMO were:
1. To force neutrality from Ukraine and it never joining NATO, which is an existential threat for Russia. Almost worked, the Ukrainians were ready to accept neutrality and say no to NATO in Istanbul 2022 until the collective west (Boris Johnson sabotaged it).
2. Denazification.
3. Demilitrization.
4. Guarantees for the safety and autonomy to the Russian speakers in Eastern Ukraine, and in particular in the Donbas.
So the above are the main reasons for the SMO. I hope you see how this scenario is different from Afghanistan in 1979, which was indeed a mistake and the Russians had no business being there and they paid a price with their defeat, just like the Americans did almost 22 years later.
If his army is a paper tiger, then why did the NATO backed and armed Ukrainian army fail miserably in the counter offensive in 2023? They only took 1 village, think about it, and lost tens of thousands of NATO trained men and billions of dollars of equipment.
We will see how much more territory the Russians take. The longer this goes on, the more territory the Ukrainians will lose and the more Ukrainian men will die needlessly and the worse deal they will get. There are clear signs of a potntial Ukrainian collapse on the frontline in the coming weeks and months.
I have nothing against Ukraine or Ukrainians. As a matter of fact, I have met some very decent and kind Ukrainians, men and women. My GP in Sydney is a Ukrainian, an amazing man. I'm neutral in this. I'm calling for a ceasefire to stop the killing and this madness. This war should NEVER have happened. I blame the collective west for taking Ukraine down the primrose path with false promises of joining NATO and the EU, only and only to make Russia bleed. These people are pure evil (The collective west), may God punish them one day. God bless the Ukrainian people.
CEASEFIRE NOW!
[QUOTE=AntonySun1996;2913301]
Ukraine should have taken the deal in 2022.[/QUOTE]They were about to until that awful Boris Johnson flew to Kiev, told Zelensky to say no to any deal and that NATO and the west will back Ukraine to the very end. And fast forward to today.
May these warmongers in the collective west rot in eternal hell for taking Ukraine down the primrose path just to feed their greed (military industrial complex) and to make Russia bleed. Sure, Russia is hurting but Ukraine will cease to exist and has had entire generations wiped out and is wrecked.
Name one entity NATO has attacked without provocation since the history of its existence. Why is every former eastern bloc country now a part of NATO except for Belarus? The existential argument is complete nonsense.
This is all because one tiny man with a very large ego can't appetite the fact that his way of rule (note I did not use the word governance) has been rejected by the entirety of the free world. What exactly are his justifications for attacking Georgia?
We're not going to change each other's minds so I'll end with this. If you come to my house and try to take it without giving me compensation that I alone agree to, one of us is going to die. If you already have a house hundreds or thousands of miles away, filled with kids, wife, girlfriend, whatever, you don't personally want my house and want to go home ASAP. You can't win, you don't want to win, you don't care. There will be plenty of give and take, but you will lose the war of attrition. People have never accepted subjugation throughout history and it's not going to start now. It's not going to happen tomorrow or next month but Russia will lose.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2913722]You do not seem to be aware of the reasons why Putin launched the SMO. Before I list them, I just want to state that I really do not have a horse in this race. I'm neither Russian or Ukrainian. I am commenting purely from a neutral perspective, after getting fully aware of the facts because the western mainstream media is pure evil that just lies.
The reasons for launching the SMO were:
1. To force neutrality from Ukraine and it never joining NATO, which is an existential threat for Russia. Almost worked, the Ukrainians were ready to accept neutrality and say no to NATO in Istanbul 2022 until the collective west (Boris Johnson sabotaged it).
2. Denazification.
3. Demilitrization.
4. Guarantees for the safety and autonomy to the Russian speakers in Eastern Ukraine, and in particular in the Donbas.
So the above are the main reasons for the SMO. I hope you see how this scenario is different from Afghanistan in 1979, which was indeed a mistake and the Russians had no business being there and they paid a price with their defeat, just like the Americans did almost 22 years later.
If his army is a paper tiger, then why did the NATO backed and armed Ukrainian army fail miserably in the counter offensive in 2023? They only took 1 village, think about it, and lost tens of thousands of NATO trained men and billions of dollars of equipment.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2913722]You do not seem to be aware of the reasons why Putin launched the SMO. Before I list them, ... may God punish them one day. God bless the Ukrainian people.
CEASEFIRE NOW![/QUOTE]A russian disniformation troll. What I would like to know is how much this guy is paid? How is he paid? Does he work in some building with more of his kind? Does he enjoy his work?
[QUOTE=FilthyBeaver;2913740]Name one entity NATO has attacked without provocation since the history of its existence. [/QUOTE]Ummm. Libya?
[QUOTE=FilthyBeaver;2913740]
Why is every former eastern bloc country now a part of NATO except for Belarus? The existential argument is complete nonsense.
This is all because one tiny man with a very large ego can't appetite the fact that his way of rule (note I did not use the word governance) has been rejected by the entirety of the free world. What exactly are his justifications for attacking Georgia?[/QUOTE]Ukraine and Georgia joining NATO were Russian red lines, this was clearly stated at Bucharest in 2008 by Putin.
[QUOTE=FilthyBeaver;2913740]
but you will lose the war of attrition. People have never accepted subjugation throughout history and it's not going to start now. It's not going to happen tomorrow or next month but Russia will lose.[/QUOTE]You live in lala land. And I don't think you understand what a war of attrition means. Russia is conducting a war of attrition which is why it's winning. What matters in a war of attrition?
Artillery.
Manpower.
Russia has a huge advantage in both, this is why Ukraine is losing and will lose.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2913744]A russian disniformation troll. What I would like to know is how much this guy is paid? How is he paid? Does he work in some building with more of his kind? Does he enjoy his work?[/QUOTE]You have no argument. Walk on home, boy.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2913722]
1. To force neutrality from Ukraine and it never joining NATO, which is an existential threat for Russia. Almost worked, the Ukrainians were ready to accept neutrality and say no to NATO in Istanbul 2022 until the collective west (Boris Johnson sabotaged it).
[/QUOTE]What a joke.
There were talks, yes, and unacceptable demands from Russian side: I. E. Only 85.000 Ukrainian soldiers to be kept (De-militarization). To make it easier for Putler, to invade later on.
Not to forget, that Putler already broke the non-agression agreement against UA, from Budapest 1994.
Unfortunately, at that time UA trusted Russia, and gave up their nuclear weapons, last not least because of this non-agression agreement.
The talks of Istanbul also mentioned security guarantees, from Western Countries, and Russia. How to fulfill? Western countries do not and did not want to take direct action against Russia in case of aggression.
[B]Putin Propagandist Panics Over Ukraine Receiving Long-Range US Missiles[/B]
[URL]https://www.newsweek.com/putin-propagandist-panics-over-ukraine-receiving-long-range-us-missiles-1894422[/URL]
Panic is about right. All Russian assets are on the highest alert now, from professional ex-Olgino trolls to paid propagandists and useful idiots in the West. You can gauge the level of their desperation by the fact that they're willing to pay for trolling a mongering forum once again, LOL.
By the way, for those who're really interested in specifics of Russia's information wars, here is an excellent new paper. Highly recommended!
[B]A multilingual analysis of pro Russian misinformation on Twitter during the Russian invasion of Ukraine[/B]
[URL]https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-024-60653-y[/URL]
No doubt, we're going to see more cool poker faces and prophecies of Ukraine's demise as the Evil Empire is racing toward the cliffs.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2913764]You have no argument. Walk on home, boy.[/QUOTE]I'm simply curious about how you are compensated. If there's enough money to be had, I would like to get in on it. I know you are required to maintain the official line in this forum, so you can private message me the details of payment.
Well, saying 'Hello' to the current commander-in-chief of the AFU's adopted son residing in Australia.
'Nigel Casey was warned that any UK military facilities and equipment on Ukrainian territory and beyond could be hit as a response to Ukrainian strikes on Russian territory with British weapons. '.
[URL]https://mid.ru/en/foreign_policy/news/1948389/[/URL]
And.
[URL]https://mid.ru/en/foreign_policy/news/1948486/[/URL]
Guess what, tactical munitions are not part of the doctrine on the use of nuclear weapons.
Here is a neutral (Swiss) explanation regarding the unacceptable Russian conditions for peace during beginning of war.
[URL]https://www.nzz.ch/international/wie-russland-und-ukraine-eine-chance-verpassten-den-krieg-zu-beenden-ld.1827138[/URL]
To argue against your (unverified) Russian point of view, peace had been possible already for 2 years.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2913885]I'm simply curious about how you are compensated. If there's enough money to be had, I would like to get in on it. I know you are required to maintain the official line in this forum, so you can private message me the details of payment.[/QUOTE]And how many Covid boosters did you get JC? Hmm.
Seeing as how your powers of prediction are so amazing, JC, where are we at in two years with this war? And by the way, is this the last of the money we need to give Ukraine? What will get for it and how much more will they need?
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2913885]I'm simply curious about how you are compensated. If there's enough money to be had, I would like to get in on it. I know you are required to maintain the official line in this forum, so you can private message me the details of payment.[/QUOTE]As I said, you have no argument, you cannot debate me. Run along now.
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2913917]And how many Covid boosters did you get JC? Hmm.
Seeing as how your powers of prediction are so amazing, JC, where are we at in two years with this war? And by the way, is this the last of the money we need to give Ukraine? What will get for it and how much more will they need?[/QUOTE]Elensky already mentioned a minimum 10 year plan. Each year will require tens of billions of dollars. Another forever war while Ukraine gets wrecked.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2915155]Elensky already mentioned a minimum 10 year plan. Each year will require tens of billions of dollars. Another forever war while Ukraine gets wrecked.[/QUOTE]1. There is no 10 year plan. The reparations and rebuilding of Ukraine after the war will be paid for by Russia.
2. 90% of the US military help to Ukraine is spent in the US, not Ukraine.
3. There isn't a number that's too high to stop your wannabe Fuhrer.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2915345]1. There is no 10 year plan. The reparations and rebuilding of Ukraine after the war will be paid for by Russia.
2. 90% of the US military help to Ukraine is spent in the US, not Ukraine.
3. There isn't a number that's too high to stop your wannabe Fuhrer.[/QUOTE]So how much more of Ukraine do you want to get wrecked? How much more territory do you want the Russians to take and annex before you call for a ceasefire? Fact of the matter is that no one will keep funding this needless war that Ukraine cannot win. The collective west will force Ukraine to make peace on Russia's term most likely after the you. S elections, unless the AFU collapses before that which is possible.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2915445]So how much more of Ukraine do you want to get wrecked? How much more territory do you want the Russians to take and annex before you call for a ceasefire? Fact of the matter is that no one will keep funding this needless war that Ukraine cannot win. The collective west will force Ukraine to make peace on Russia's term most likely after the you. S elections, unless the AFU collapses before that which is possible.[/QUOTE]RedBlooded, XMan and his crazy liberal friends do not care, they want this war to continue no matter what the cost is. We should have been negotiating from the beginning, instead Nato / Ukraine pushed their luck, now both are being destroyed As a Result countless numbers of Ukraine's and Russian are being killed. Parts of Europe are in a Recession and Americas Economy is in horrible shape, NATO is a complete joke. What a waist.
The Liberals still think they can stop Russia, just send more money to one or most corrupt countries in the world with zero oversight.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2915445]...Fact of the matter is that no one will keep funding this needless war that Ukraine cannot win...[/QUOTE]More pure Russian propaganda. It shows how vulnerable relatively open democratic institutions (e. g. , this forum) are to the lies and propaganda of a totalitarian government.
An interview with the first hand information from someone 'v teme' (mostly used in Ukraine this Russian expression stands for an insider with deeper information on a specific topic):
[URL]https://eng.belta.by/society/view/how-ukraines-security-agencies-prepared-dirty-bomb-and-what-radon-corporation-has-to-do-with-it-158244-2024/[/URL]
[URL]https://eng.belta.by/society/view/how-us-security-agencies-used-ukrainian-saboteurs-to-cover-up-explosions-at-nord-streams-158243-2024/[/URL]
[URL]https://eng.belta.by/society/view/how-biden-familys-partners-sponsored-ukrainian-terrorism-via-burisma-company-158241-2024/[/URL]
A tip: if you ever face a choice of a marriage to a Russian girl (a toss), a Ukrainian (pass) or a Belorussian (grasp) choose a girl from Belarus.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2915454]More pure Russian propaganda. It shows how vulnerable relatively open democratic institutions (e. g. , this forum) are to the lies and propaganda of a totalitarian government.[/QUOTE]More denial from you and liberal friends. Maybe negotiate instead of sending more money to a country that is on the verge of collapsing and corrupt. There are no more men or women to send to the front. Over 500,000 are dead now, but why stop now.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2915445]So how much more of Ukraine do you want to get wrecked? How much more territory do you want the Russians to take and annex before you call for a ceasefire? Fact of the matter is that no one will keep funding this needless war that Ukraine cannot win. The collective west will force Ukraine to make peace on Russia's term most likely after the you. S elections, unless the AFU collapses before that which is possible.[/QUOTE]You know what else is possible?
Killing dozens of your own civilians with your own missiles.
Why do you fellas keep killing Russians? Can't help yourselves?
Russian missile causes collapse of Belgorod building OSINT analysts.
[URL]https://www.yahoo.com/news/russian-missile-causes-collapse-belgorod-151000232.html[/URL]#text.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2915454]More pure Russian propaganda. It shows how vulnerable relatively open democratic institutions (e. g. , this forum) are to the lies and propaganda of a totalitarian government.[/QUOTE]I don't know. I think, they're quite transparent, aren't they? I mean you can easily tell who the shills are.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2915454]More pure Russian propaganda. It shows how vulnerable relatively open democratic institutions (e. g. , this forum) are to the lies and propaganda of a totalitarian government.[/QUOTE]So if you believe Ukraine can win, tell me this: what does a Ukraine victory look like in your view? What defines Ukraine winning?
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2915450]
The Liberals still think they can stop Russia, just send more money to one or most corrupt countries in the world with zero oversight.[/QUOTE]This will stop too eventually, question is when, it can't go on forever. Everyone can see the corruption in Ukraine. How about those defenses in Kharkov? The Russians just walked in. That's a bloody disgrace for Ukraine.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2915588]You know what else is possible?
Killing dozens of your own civilians with your own missiles.
Why do you fellas keep killing Russians? Can't help yourselves?
Russian missile causes collapse of Belgorod building OSINT analysts.
[URL]https://www.yahoo.com/news/russian-missile-causes-collapse-belgorod-151000232.html[/URL]#text.[/QUOTE]I stopped reading when I read "OSINT analysts".
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2915548]More denial from you and liberal friends. Maybe negotiate instead of sending more money to a country that is on the verge of collapsing and corrupt. There are no more men or women to send to the front. Over 500,000 are dead now, but why stop now.[/QUOTE]Yeah, why stop now indeed! There are still teenagers to send to the frontline to get killed. I'm sure there are some elderly too.
Until the last Ukrainian. What a horrific, needless tragedy. NATO and the warmongers in the collective west are PURE EVIL.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2915650]Yeah, why stop now indeed! There are still teenagers to send to the frontline to get killed. I'm sure there are some elderly too.
Until the last Ukrainian. What a horrific, needless tragedy. NATO and the warmongers in the collective west are PURE EVIL.[/QUOTE]We forgot to mention Ukraine has been sending girls to the front for several months now, probably longer. The media and the left conveniently forgets to report this.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2915646]So if you believe Ukraine can win, tell me this: what does a Ukraine victory look like in your view? What defines Ukraine winning?[/QUOTE]There is no "victory" for the tens of thousands of Ukrainians who have been killed, wounded, mutilated or tortured in this war. A partial justice would be if Russia withdrew to the internationally recognized borders, to which it is a guarantor, detained all persons accused of war crimes or waging a war of aggression and remanded them to the International Court of Justice in the Hague, and began to pay reparations to Ukraine for damaged caused by its illegal actions.
However, in the short term, I believe that the Crimean peninsula is strategically untenable. I hope and expect that with the arrival of F-16's and longer range munitions, Ukraine will finally be able to advance through Melitopol and sever the land bridge to Russia, forcing the evacuation and surrender of Crimea. I wish that this disaster would cause the removal of Putin and the governing hierarchy, the end of government information control in the Russian Federation, and the normalization of relationships between the West and Russia.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2915688]There is no "victory" for the tens of thousands of Ukrainians who have been killed, wounded, mutilated or tortured in this war. A partial justice would be if Russia withdrew to the internationally recognized borders, to which it is a guarantor, detained all persons accused of war crimes or waging a war of aggression and remanded them to the International Court of Justice in the Hague, and began to pay reparations to Ukraine for damaged caused by its illegal actions.[/QUOTE]Well, if that is your definition of what victory looks like, I'm afraid NONE of that is ever going to happen. The 4 new territories + Crimea are gone forever. The longer this goes on, the more territory Ukraine will lose.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2915688]
However, in the short term, I believe that the Crimean peninsula is strategically untenable. I hope and expect that with the arrival of F-16's and longer range munitions, Ukraine will finally be able to advance through Melitopol and sever the land bridge to Russia, forcing the evacuation and surrender of Crimea.[/QUOTE]You are seriously on drugs or just delusional. Or you have ZERO knowledge of military matters. Last year, when the much hyped Ukranian counter offenseive started, that was Ukraine's BEST CHANCE to make any impact on the outcome of the war, it was their last roll of the dice. At that time, Ukraine had NATO trained fresh brigades, a ton of western weapons worth billions of dollars. And what was the outcome of the counter offensive? They succeeded in taking Robotyne, a tiny village. They didn't even reach Tokmak! And you think now Ukraine will reach Melitopol and severe the land bridge and threaten Crimea? You live in lala land. The F16's won't make any difference, just like the ATACMS didn't, just like HIMARS didn't, just like storm shadow / scalp / Abrams / Leopards didn't. They will all burn.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2915688] I wish that this disaster would cause the removal of Putin and the governing hierarchy, the end of government information control in the Russian Federation, and the normalization of relationships between the West and Russia.[/QUOTE]I'm afraid none of your wishes are going to come true. But you can continue to wish and dream. The reality is quickly unfolding before your eyes in Donetsk and Kharkov.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2915688]There is no "victory" for the tens of thousands of Ukrainians who have been killed, wounded, mutilated or tortured in this war. A partial justice would be if Russia withdrew to the internationally recognized borders, to which it is a guarantor, detained all persons accused of war crimes or waging a war of aggression and remanded them to the International Court of Justice in the Hague, and began to pay reparations to Ukraine for damaged caused by its illegal actions.
However, in the short term, I believe that the Crimean peninsula is strategically untenable. I hope and expect that with the arrival of F-16's and longer range munitions, Ukraine will finally be able to advance through Melitopol and sever the land bridge to Russia, forcing the evacuation and surrender of Crimea. I wish that this disaster would cause the removal of Putin and the governing hierarchy, the end of government information control in the Russian Federation, and the normalization of relationships between the West and Russia.[/QUOTE]JC you and Xman are smoking the same crap. The war is over, it has been over for several months, the only thing that would save Ukraine if the states and NATO decided to send 100,000's of troops. NATO has nothing to send and the states are not prepared for war with Russia. Not to mention we are running low on weapons and ammunition, we have given way too much to a lost cause. Counter to what the media says Russia Army is well equipped and seasoned fighters now, we would probably get our ass kicked.
The liberals, America and the Euros created this disaster, the only way to save Ukraine is to surrender, before there is nothing left. You guys really screwed up this time, no plane, weapon or large some of money will change anything. Russia continues to get stronger while the west and the Euros get weaker.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2915696]... I'm afraid NONE of that is ever going to happen. The 4 new territories + Crimea are gone forever...[/QUOTE]Russia can not supply Crimea. They will soon be gone -- wait for it.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2915731]Russia can not supply Crimea. They will soon be gone -- wait for it.[/QUOTE]You have no idea what you are talking about. Let me educate you.
Even before the Kerch bridge was constructed, Russia could supply Crimea via air and ferry route. Plus, now there is a land bridge from the new territories to Crimea, a rail link recently completed.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2915706]JC you and Xman are smoking the same crap. The war is over, it has been over for several months, the only thing that would save Ukraine if the states and NATO decided to send 100,000's of troops. NATO has nothing to send and the states are not prepared for war with Russia. Not to mention we are running low on weapons and ammunition, we have given way too much to a lost cause. Counter to what the media says Russia Army is well equipped and seasoned fighters now, we would probably get our ass kicked.
The liberals, America and the Euros created this disaster, the only way to save Ukraine is to surrender, before there is nothing left. You guys really screwed up this time, no plane, weapon or large some of money will change anything. Russia continues to get stronger while the west and the Euros get weaker.[/QUOTE]The war ended after Ukraine's last throw of the dice, the much hyped counter offensive launched in 2023 FAILED miserably. They managed to take Robatino only, can you imagine? And Russia recaptured it today. Unbelievable.
These people still do not understand that it isn't about money or ammunition. This is about MANPOWER now. Ukraine is out of manpower. You cannot print soldiers.
NATO is not going to get involved. These people don't want to help Ukraine win, they want to make Russia bleed / weak. Llyod Austin openly said this back in 2022! The sooner Ukraine realizes this, the better off they will be. The warmongers in the collective west took Ukraine down the primrose path. These people are pure evil.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2915786]
These people still do not understand that it isn't about money or ammunition. This is about MANPOWER now. Ukraine is out of manpower. You cannot print soldiers.
NATO is not going to get involved. These people don't want to help Ukraine win, they want to make Russia bleed / weak. [/QUOTE]Unfortunately, the facts prove, what you write. Western countries simply dragged out serious support of UA, which believed the Wests cheap words. Unfortunately.
I only remind the 5000 helmets, Germany sent as "First Aid" after the war started, or the long discussions regarding Leopard tanks, or the long delays of fresh US money. Not to mention the failed promise of 1 Mio artillery shells. I am not a big fan of the US, but as a German engineer, I know, that the Americans can be VERY FAST to build up industrial facilities.
In case they really want. Production of shells is not too complicated a process.
The West simply cheated UA. To break up UA, part to the West (Poland?) part to Putler?
[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2915797]Unfortunately, the facts prove, what you write. Western countries simply dragged out serious support of UA, which believed the Wests cheap words. Unfortunately.
I only remind the 5000 helmets, Germany sent as "First Aid" after the war started, or the long discussions regarding Leopard tanks, or the long delays of fresh US money. Not to mention the failed promise of 1 Mio artillery shells. I am not a big fan of the US, but as a German engineer, I know, that the Americans can be VERY FAST to build up industrial facilities.
In case they really want. Production of shells is not too complicated a process.
The West simply cheated UA. To break up UA, part to the West (Poland?) part to Putler?[/QUOTE]And Ukraine still is believing the collective wests bullshit words it seems. Or who knows, I don't know what the ordinary Ukrainian thinks. The corrupt Kiev regime will want this to go on as long as possible so they can keep bagging billions, they don't seem to care that the country is getting depopulated and wrecked.
And like you said, they hesitated and delayed sending what Ukraine really needed to have made a difference. They took Ukraine down the primrose path. The goal was to make Russia weak and to make it bleed, NOT to make Ukraine win. I wish Ukrainian supporters would admit that. Now they are dangling the carrot of Ukraine joining NATO one day. Write this down: Ukraine will NEVER join NATO. They know this but are still giving this false hope to the poor Ukrainians. Pure evil like I said. And yes, Ukraine will be divided.
Everything East of the Dniper plus Odessa will be Russia most likely. What is left will be a dysfunctional rump state unviable to ever join the EU and will never join NATO as I said. Who knows, the Poles, Hungarians may swallow up some territory as well. Zelensky if he succeeds in running away like Ghani did in Afghanistan will be living overseas in one of his mansions. That man is a curse for Ukraine, history will judge him very harshly.
[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2915797]Unfortunately, the facts prove, what you write. Western countries simply dragged out serious support of UA, which believed the Wests cheap words. Unfortunately.
I only remind the 5000 helmets, Germany sent as "First Aid" after the war started, or the long discussions regarding Leopard tanks, or the long delays of fresh US money. Not to mention the failed promise of 1 Mio artillery shells. I am not a big fan of the US, but as a German engineer, I know, that the Americans can be VERY FAST to build up industrial facilities.
In case they really want. Production of shells is not too complicated a process.
The West simply cheated UA. To break up UA, part to the West (Poland?) part to Putler?[/QUOTE]For the "collective West" (as Russian shills cordially call all of us) this is a process. In democratic countries, helping others with anything, finances or munitions takes time and torturous debates and discussions. I too would've been much happier if this had been done in a jiffy, but the "collective West" is not a bunch of Putinstans where everything and everyone bends to the whim of one person. In the US specifically, the military aid had been held hostage to our internal politics, not even mentioning the little fact that Nato (go figure!) just doesn't make enough armaments for a big war.
This is unfortunate, but it is what it is. What are you going to do, as they say here in Brooklyn.
There hasn't been any menace in the West dragging its feet. Stupidity, cowardice, greed -- yes. Malice -- no. Your interpretation of the West's intentions is simply way off.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2915933] Or who knows, I don't know what the ordinary Ukrainian thinks.
[/QUOTE]The shame is unbearble for fighting men outside the trenches to look at each other. Even I as an outsider am looking at these dudes a little funny. Brothers are in need and not stepping up.
[QUOTE=Riina;2916071]The shame is unbearble for fighting men outside the trenches to look at each other. Even I as an outsider am looking at these dudes a little funny. Brothers are in need and not stepping up.[/QUOTE]Russians like you don't speak for Ukrainians, I was there recently, and they are grateful for the help they are getting and looking forward to using it to kick the invading force out of their country.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2916299]Russians like you don't speak for Ukrainians, I was there recently, and they are grateful for the help they are getting and looking forward to using it to kick the invading force out of their country.[/QUOTE]Ten years ago at the onset of the war, 10 out of 10 Ukrainians outside of Ukraine would have firmly said yes to a call from the motherland. Now it's a zero out of ten. What changed?
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2915706]JC you and Xman are smoking the same crap. The war is over, it has been over for several months[/QUOTE]Yeah, and the bullshit reason we were given was to weaken Russia. It was just pols handing money to defense contractors who handed it back to them in the form of donations.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2915706] the only thing that would save Ukraine if the states and NATO decided to send 100,000's of troops.[/QUOTE]And that is another reason to vote Trump. Biden said he wanted that and is crazy enough to do it. To quote a famous general:
WAR is a racket. It always has been.
It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.
I cannot believe how much fucking debt we racked up in the Iraq war for oil and what mattered to get more oil was not an invasion but to refine a drilling technique. The war on Covid cost like $10 trillion and now you got this one which ironically is mild in comparison. WTF did we get for all that money spent? Anything?
That is the thing with Democratic douches. They have no concept of how much things cost.
Chime in the Democratic douche who says, "Iraq was a Republican war. " Yeah, no shit, so why is this one any better?
And now the douches will say, it was an unprovoked attack on a sovereign country. Please. It was a provoked attack and everyone with even a speck of knowledge knows it.
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2916540]
And that is another reason to vote Trump. Biden said he wanted that and is crazy enough to do it. .[/QUOTE]It's hard to say but to be fair, I think Biden has been consistent from the get-go in saying that there won't be any American boots on the ground. He realizes that if he did that it would mean a possible nuclear showdown with Russia, which no one wants. Is he being reckless in provoking Russia? Of course. But NATO or the collective west won't get involved by putting their soldiers on the ground or even enforcing some sort of no-fly zone. Macron is talking out of his ass and full of shit. The collective west is happy to fund Ukraine, they have plenty of money to throw away it seems. And they are happy to supply enough weapons to Ukraine, so Ukraine doesn't win or doesn't collapse quickly either. The aim is to make Russia bleed and weak, until the last Ukrainian. That's sick but it's the horrific reality.
[QUOTE=Riina;2916071]The shame is unbearble for fighting men outside the trenches to look at each other. Even I as an outsider am looking at these dudes a little funny. Brothers are in need and not stepping up.[/QUOTE]I can understand a Ukrainian sitting in the trenches feeling pissed at the men overseas running away from serving. But then I put myself in the shoes of a Ukranian living overseas, in his 20's or 30's, fighting age and I can understand them not wanting to come back and being sent to the meat grinder with little to no training and face certain death. Who can blame them?
[QUOTE=VinDici;2916299]Russians like you don't speak for Ukrainians, I was there recently, and they are grateful for the help they are getting and looking forward to using it to kick the invading force out of their country.[/QUOTE]Thank you for your racist display. A warmonger like you shouldn't be on this website.
UA is the remake of the first Gulfwar, when Saddam went to pick up his stolen money from a US / UK pipeline, that was running from Kuwait into Iraq.
How many US biolabs in the UA? Since when? By whom? How maintained? For what purpose? You know the answer as much as I do.
$5 M mobster Joe & Co. + BURISMA, including member of the US Congress. , wasn't enough, he had to fire a native prosecutor from his own court, and add to it $1 B from the USAID to a rogue general.
Then, the pipeline made to destroy Germany's economy.
Your Bidet has done it all, has much as letting fly Gaza because he is on his way out, this guy has 5 years to live. The Jew knew, and grabbed the opportunity. This attack was announced and demonstrated during 2 long years before it happened. Conveniently, that day, all forces public and private, were concentrated in one location facing Jordana.
Still up in 2017, a website described in a chronological order all discrepancies in regard to Joe's first wife, and child deadly accident. Super Pedo is well organized.
His second wife died too.
The only real support the US has in the EU is from these puppet from England, and that's pretty thin.
[QUOTE=Haokool;2916650]Thank you for your racist display. A warmonger like you shouldn't be on this website.[/QUOTE]Supporting the right of Ukrainians to be free and remove invaders from their lands isn't warmongering. If you want peace, then campaign for Russia to leave, it's not rocket science.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2916626]It's hard to say but to be fair, I think Biden has been consistent from the get-go in saying that there won't be any American boots on the ground. He realizes that if he did that it would mean a possible nuclear showdown with Russia, which no one wants.[/QUOTE]I think you need to separate Biden from his administration. [URL]https://nypost.com/2022/03/25/joe-biden-says-us-troops-will-be-in-ukraine-in-apparent-gaffe/[/URL].
Here is what Biden said: President Biden told US troops in Poland Friday that they will witness the bravery of Ukrainians fighting off Russia's invasion "when you're there" making a significant gaffe after he previously said the US must stay out of the European conflict to avoid triggering "World War III."
Biden made the remark while addressing members of the Army's 82nd Airborne Division after lunching on pizza and posing for selfies with dozens of paratroopers at a mess hall in Rzeszow, southeastern Poland.
"You're going to see when you're there, and some of you have been there, you're going to see you're going to see women, young people standing in the middle in front of a damned tank just saying, 'I'm not leaving, I'm holding my ground, Biden said.
A White House official quickly clarified that Biden wasn't changing his stance on deploying the military into Ukraine.
"The president has been clear we are not sending US troops to Ukraine and there is no change in that position," a Biden spokesman told The Post.
Biden also said that there was no way we should let Putin stay in power.
These were written off as Biden gaffes, but neither sounded like gaffes to me. I think Biden wants US troops in Ukraine and regime change in Russia. I think his administration has told Biden it would be a horrible move and advised against it. Thank God.
Biden is a fucking bully. Always has been. Always will be. All these fucking trials with Trump are made out to not be Biden, but it is him. And it is the same thing when he had a SWAT team invade Trump's house. He played like he was in the dark with it but it came out later that was his brain child too.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2916745]Supporting the right of Ukrainians to be free and remove invaders from their lands isn't warmongering. If you want peace, then campaign for Russia to leave, it's not rocket science.[/QUOTE]Easy for you to say as a westerner who sits behind keyboard doesn't have to actually bleed and die in this war.
The biggest sacrifice you have done for Ukraine's freedom is probably changing your profile picture on social media to Ukrainian flag. While actual Ukrainian men are being caught on streets by TCC to send to front.
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2916803]I think you need to separate Biden from his administration.
"You're going to see when you're there, and some of you have been there, you're going to see you're going to see women, young people standing in the middle in front of a damned tank just saying, 'I'm not leaving, I'm holding my ground, Biden said.
A White House official quickly clarified that Biden wasn't changing his stance on deploying the military into Ukraine.
"The president has been clear we are not sending US troops to Ukraine and there is no change in that position," a Biden spokesman told The Post.
Biden also said that there was no way we should let Putin stay in power.
.[/QUOTE]I don't like Sleepy Joe but once again to be fair to him, the man is suffering from Alzheimer's. He isn't running the show. It's Blinken and Sullivan for the most part. I don't think the people actually running the White House are stupid enough to risk a nuclear showdown with Russia over Ukraine, it's just not going to happen thank God.
The Russian army is a joke. Incredibly corrupt, incompetent, undisciplined with soldiers charging against machine guns, drones and mines either drunk or high out of their minds. Their war strategy is a succession of primitive meat assaults. That's probably how cavemen fought thousands of years ago. Every day of fighting in Ukraine takes about 1500 orcs out of commission.
Russian military hardware (whatever's left of it) is MOSTLY a joke. And there isn't much left. They're storming well equipped Ukrainian positions with 1950 BTRs and rely on Iranian drones and outdated and often faulty North Korean munitions.
[URL]https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2024/05/20/when-a-70-year-old-russian-btr-50-attacks-ukrainian-troops-its-bad-news-for-the-whole-russian-war-effort[/URL]
North Korean for fuck's sake!
However, there was one particular type of war Russia used to excel -- information war. Used to, because Russia has overplayed its hand just like it always does. No one gives a shit about their red lines and nuclear blackmail any more. The mere fact that they have shills posting on a mongering forum is beyond pathetic.
But I digress. Caught a new show Moscow Tool yesterday on Comedy Channel. Funny as hell, but also mind-blowing.
[URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwLFOM3rgq8&pp=ygUMbW9zY293IHRvb2xz[/URL]
Not that I didn't know about MAGA degenerates who adore Putin, but seeing their lips actually moving -- well, that's something. Too bad Klepper went too easy on those magnificent morons.
But then, he talks to Kline Preston, a MAGA lawyer and official observer of several Russian elections, and oh my God! That tool doesn't even try denying that he's a Russian asset. In fact, he's the one who suggests he is (Hello, Dr. Freud!
Watch it. It's both scary and hilarious.
[URL]https://www.moscowtimes.ru/2024/05/21/rossiya-reshila-vodnostoronnem-poryadke-sdvinut-granitsu-slitvoi-ifinlyandiei-ibaltiiskom-more-a131403[/URL]
This happens, when the West is not determined enough. Foreseen, though.
[QUOTE=AntonySun1996;2916886]Easy for you to say as a westerner who sits behind keyboard doesn't have to actually bleed and die in this war.
The biggest sacrifice you have done for Ukraine's freedom is probably changing your profile picture on social media to Ukrainian flag. While actual Ukrainian men are being caught on streets by TCC to send to front.[/QUOTE]I've been there many times before and during the Russian invasion / war. Provided humanitarian aid, helped fund raise for their military and families there, as well as helping UA refugees in my own country.
Picture attached is from April 2024.
Unlike others here, I want them to have autonomy and freedom, the right to choose their own destiny, without the Russian boot on their necks.
I am many things, but a keyboard warrior, is not one of them.
Now tell me what you have done, other than hope for Russians to keep killing Ukrainians?
[QUOTE=VinDici;2917078]Provided humanitarian aid, helped fund raise for their military and families there, as well as helping UA refugees in my own country.[/QUOTE]Sure buddy. A noble man who helps Ukrainian refugees and military such as you would just sit on an online forum for sex tourists in Ukraine. Does not make one wonder the true intention of your visits at all.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2917078]I want them to have autonomy and freedom, the right to choose their own destiny, without the Russian boot on their necks.[/QUOTE]You are more than welcome to join the foreign volunteer army yourself instead of just chanting your ideologies online encouraging others to die for them.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2917078]Now tell me what you have done, other than hope for Russians to keep killing Ukrainians?[/QUOTE]I do make donations to war refugees, but not to military units of either side. Unlike some naive kids, I don't think helping to prolong this war does any help to the people that has already been suffering so long.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2917078]hope for Russians to keep killing Ukrainians?[/QUOTE]If that's what you get from what I wrote, I suggest you seek help ASAP regarding your dyslexia.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2917078]Unlike others here, I want them to have autonomy and freedom, the right to choose their own destiny, without the Russian boot on their necks.[/QUOTE]Pretty disingenuous statement coming from a sex tourist in Kiev. Create all the illusion you want, every Ukrainian sees right through.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2917031]The Russian army is a joke. Incredibly corrupt, incompetent, undisciplined with soldiers charging against machine guns, drones and mines either drunk or high out of their minds. Their war strategy is a succession of primitive meat assaults. That's probably how cavemen fought thousands of years ago. Every day of fighting in Ukraine takes about 1500 orcs out of commission.
Russian military hardware (whatever's left of it) is MOSTLY a joke. And there isn't much left. They're storming well equipped Ukrainian positions with 1950 BTRs and rely on Iranian drones and outdated and often faulty North Korean munitions.
[URL]https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2024/05/20/when-a-70-year-old-russian-btr-50-attacks-ukrainian-troops-its-bad-news-for-the-whole-russian-war-effort[/URL]
.[/QUOTE]Let's assume all of that is true, that the Russian army is weak, the Russians are stupid and incompetent, their hardware is a joke, etc etc. Answer this question:
If all that is true, why did the Ukrainian counter offensive last year fail so miserably? They actually had a well trained, well armed army with many NATO trained brigades at that time. And they only captured 1 village. Why?
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2917031]The Russian army is a joke. Incredibly corrupt, incompetent, undisciplined with soldiers charging against machine guns, drones and mines either drunk or high out of their minds. Their war strategy is a succession of primitive meat assaults. That's probably how cavemen fought thousands of years ago. Every day of fighting in Ukraine takes about 1500 orcs out of commission.
Russian military hardware (whatever's left of it) is MOSTLY a joke. And there isn't much left. They're storming well equipped Ukrainian positions with 1950 BTRs and rely on Iranian drones and outdated and often faulty North Korean munitions.
[URL]https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2024/05/20/when-a-70-year-old-russian-btr-50-attacks-ukrainian-troops-its-bad-news-for-the-whole-russian-war-effort[/URL]
North Korean for fuck's sake!.[/QUOTE]As usual you are wrong and living in some fantasy world. I think you are describing Ukraine army, but why stop lying now.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2917078]I've been there many times before and during the Russian invasion / war. Provided humanitarian aid, helped fund raise for their military and families there, as well as helping UA refugees in my own country.
Picture attached is from April 2024.
Unlike others here, I want them to have autonomy and freedom, the right to choose their own destiny, without the Russian boot on their necks.
I am many things, but a keyboard warrior, is not one of them.
Now tell me what you have done, other than hope for Russians to keep killing Ukrainians?[/QUOTE]Gulliver in your photo is a nice shopping mall in the heart of Kyiv by the way. Brings a lot of memories. However, last time I checked, there are no "orcs" around that area.
Kharkiv and Donbass fronts are more suitable for your purposes.
Your post history suggests you still engage in sex tourism in Ukraine during the war time, so let me summarize:
You want Ukrainians to "kill orcs" in the east, yet you yourself are sitting in Kyiv hundreds of miles away from frontline, "helping Ukrainian people and military" as you claim. How?
You come to Ukraine to take advantage of the situation, paying to have sex with women when their men are dying on the front. I'm sure Ukrainians are very grateful for your bravery.
What a hero.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2917264]If all that is true, why did the Ukrainian counter offensive last year fail so miserably? They actually had a well trained, well armed army with many NATO trained brigades at that time. And they only captured 1 village. Why?[/QUOTE]That's not even true.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2917300]That's not even true.[/QUOTE]I wonder why I wasn't invited to last summer's Crimea beach party.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2917266]As usual you are wrong and living in some fantasy world. I think you are describing Ukraine army, but why stop lying now.[/QUOTE]This guy Peter Zeihan made the case that Russia always starts wars horribly and then they get rid of the politically adept but no nothing losers in the military and then put in people who know what they are doing, and then Russia uses its superior manpower to win. That pattern has totally held true in this war.
As far as Xman and Russian propaganda, have you seen the Russians skilled with communications in any area? Any blockbuster movies? Any great social media sites? Any kick ass music groups? Shit, Putin went on this boring 30 minute history lecture when he started talking to Tucker Carlson. When I was in the former USSR, the Soviets thought they understood Americans but I felt they did so to a rigid point where we were given beef with literally every meal.
American propaganda is so much better. The only place Russian propaganda took hold was in universities and communism / socialism was a great excuse for why those intelligent professors were not more wealthy and powerful than they were. It was and is fertile ground for socialism.
But yeah, guys like Xman do not think there is any American propaganda in this war. There is only Russian propaganda.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2917300]That's not even true.[/QUOTE] What part is not true?
And tell me, what territory did Ukraine capture during their much hyped counter offensive that started in June 2023? Name some villages, cities, towns, etc. I know they captured Robotyne to much fanfare, a small tiny village that the Russians have since recaptured.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2917418]What part is not true?
And tell me, what territory did Ukraine capture during their much hyped counter offensive that started in June 2023? Name some villages, cities, towns, etc. I know they captured Robotyne to much fanfare, a small tiny village that the Russians have since recaptured.[/QUOTE]That's not how that works, if you put forward a claim without evidence, it can also be dismissed without evidence. Let's see where you are getting this information from?
[QUOTE=AntonySun1996;2917288]Your post history suggests you still engage in sex tourism in Ukraine during the war time, so let me summarize:[/QUOTE]Is there something wrong with mongering? If you want to criticize people for mongering, why are you here?
[QUOTE=VinDici;2917421]Is there something wrong with mongering? If you want to criticize people for mongering, why are you here?[/QUOTE]Nothing.
What's wrong is hypocrisy. Taking advantage of the war, hunting Ukrainian women when their husbands are on frontline dying, while claiming to be helping Ukraine is just another level.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2917421]If you want to criticize people for mongering, why are you here?[/QUOTE]I do not calm I'm a saint as you do, nor do I criticize mongering. I do criticize hypocrisy.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2917264]Let's assume all of that is true, that the Russian army is weak, the Russians are stupid and incompetent, their hardware is a joke, etc etc. Answer this question:
If all that is true, why did the Ukrainian counter offensive last year fail so miserably? They actually had a well trained, well armed army with many NATO trained brigades at that time. And they only captured 1 village. Why?[/QUOTE]Of course, the mere premise of your question is yet another element of disinformation because the AFU liberated over a dozen villages, not one. That being said, here are the reasons why the 2023 counteroffensive was stalled.
1. It was repeatedly postponed due to poor weather and countless delays in weapon supplies.
2. Due to these delays, the Russians had managed to build efficient defense infrastructure.
3. The Ukrainians had gotten too cocky after their spectacularly successful counteroffensives in 2022.
Nevertheless, I find it interesting (and telling) how you consistently bragging about thwarting a Ukrainian CO. Is that where mighty Russia and its military prowess are standing right now? A stalemate?
That's a fateful departure from Kyiv in 3 days.
I mean, you guys have captured some yummy cities recently, like Bakhmut or Avdiivka. Want to tell us about those glorious victories and what they cost you? No?
[QUOTE=Riina;2917230]Pretty disingenuous statement coming from a sex tourist in Kiev.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=AntonySun1996;2917288]You come to Ukraine to take advantage of the situation, paying to have sex with women [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=VinDici;2917421]Is there something wrong with mongering? If you want to criticize people for mongering, why are you here?[/QUOTE]They're probably working on more than one forum. I see how these fellas might get confused.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2917420]That's not how that works, if you put forward a claim without evidence, it can also be dismissed without evidence. Let's see where you are getting this information from?[/QUOTE]Why are you even in this discussion if you have no clue? You should stick to punting which you clearly excel at. As for your question, let me educate you. This is from the pathetic pro Ukrainian western mainstream media. Have a read if you have the attention span:
Despite six months of intense fighting, Ukraine managed just a 7.5-kilometer advance, reaching the village of Robotyne.
[URL]https://www.reuters.com/graphics/UKRAINE-CRISIS/MAPS/klvygwawavg/[/URL]#four-factors-that-stalled-ukraines-counteroffensive.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2917571]Why are you even in this discussion if you have no clue? ...[/QUOTE]You are demonstrating a complete (and sad) lack of self awareness.
[QUOTE=AntonySun1996;2917482]Nothing.
What's wrong is hypocrisy. Taking advantage of the war, hunting Ukrainian women when their husbands are on frontline dying, while claiming to be helping Ukraine is just another level.[/QUOTE]Maybe it's better if you make a list of places where mongers are allowed to operate? Would be good to know what the ISG morality police allows and disallows. Glad you know everything about the lives of Ukrainians.
[QUOTE=AntonySun1996;2917482]I do not calm I'm a saint as you do, nor do I criticize mongering. I do criticize hypocrisy.[/QUOTE]Hypocrisy? Irony is lost on you I guess.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2917673]You are demonstrating a complete (and sad) lack of self awareness.[/QUOTE]This is unfortunately endemic amongst the RuZZians.
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2917412]This guy Peter Zeihan made the case that Russia always starts wars horribly and then they get rid of the politically adept but no nothing losers in the military and then put in people who know what they are doing, and then Russia uses its superior manpower to win. That pattern has totally held true in this war.
[/QUOTE]That guy gets most things wrong, but I did like his recent video about higher rates for way longer.
I don't know about Russian strategy, but I do know it's a shit show for the Westerners that went to fight. Ukrainians basically grind them up and have no respect for their lives. Plenty of reports out there of their terrible experiences, completely out gunned with fractional resources.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2917687]
Hypocrisy? Irony is lost on you I guess.[/QUOTE]Sure. You are not a hypocrite at all.
Having some random foreign dude pay to have sex with their women is exactly what Ukrainian soldiers need.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2917571]Why are you even in this discussion if you have no clue? You should stick to punting which you clearly excel at. As for your question, let me educate you. This is from the pathetic pro Ukrainian western mainstream media. Have a read if you have the attention span:
Despite six months of intense fighting, Ukraine managed just a 7.5-kilometer advance, reaching the village of Robotyne.
[URL]https://www.reuters.com/graphics/UKRAINE-CRISIS/MAPS/klvygwawavg/[/URL]#four-factors-that-stalled-ukraines-counteroffensive.[/QUOTE]Gee, that's just lazy.
After an obligatory tirade against "pathetic pro Ukrainian western mainstream media" where do you go? That's right, you paste a link from "pathetic pro Ukrainian western mainstream media" that practically lists the same pointers I already provided you a day earlier.
That's lazy and clumsy. You've now officially crossed into the Drama Queen territory.
[QUOTE=Riina;2917713]
I don't know about Russian strategy, but I do know it's a shit show for the Westerners that went to fight. Ukrainians basically grind them up and have no respect for their lives. Plenty of reports out there of their terrible experiences, completely out gunned with fractional resources.[/QUOTE]My understanding is that both sides use foreign fighters in their ranks. Seeing that you're so well-versed in these matters, is there anything you could tell us about foreign soldiers fighting for Russia and how are their lives respected by your homeland?
[QUOTE=Riina;2917713]I don't know about Russian strategy, but I do know it's a shit show for the Westerners that went to fight. Ukrainians basically grind them up and have no respect for their lives. Plenty of reports out there of their terrible experiences, completely out gunned with fractional resources.[/QUOTE]You just described the Russian military doctrine. Also by reversing the narrative, you've also used the main tool in the Russian propaganda playbook.
You can now pass go and collect 200 rubles.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2917673]You are demonstrating a complete (and sad) lack of self awareness.[/QUOTE]You cannot debate, that much is clear.
[QUOTE=Riina;2917713]That guy gets most things wrong, but I did like his recent video about higher rates for way longer..[/QUOTE]He is a mouth piece for the CIA and wants a demented president like Biden in office so the CIA can do whatever the hell it wants.
But just like the kid in the military who released documents about how lousy the chances of Ukraine was of winning, Zeihan let us know the truth about how the CIA felt. He said repeatedly this was Russia's war to lose.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2917778]Gee, that's just lazy.
After an obligatory tirade against "pathetic pro Ukrainian western mainstream media" where do you go? That's right, you paste a link from "pathetic pro Ukrainian western mainstream media" that practically lists the same pointers I already provided you a day earlier.
That's lazy and clumsy. You've now officially crossed into the Drama Queen territory.
?[/QUOTE]I posted an article from Reuters which is from the western media (anti Russian) to prove that the Ukrainian counter offensive was an utter failure and they just captured 1 village which they since have lost.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2917901]I posted an article from Reuters which is from the western media (anti Russian) to prove that the Ukrainian counter offensive was an utter failure and they just captured 1 village which they since have lost.[/QUOTE]Please indicate: a) where the article states that Ukraine only "captured 1 village" or b) what brought you to the conclusion (based on the above article) that it captures only 1 village.
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2917853]He is a mouth piece for the CIA and wants a demented president like Biden in office[/QUOTE]For your guy, dementia is a feature, not a bug.
[B]Biden Is Getting Older. Trump Is Losing His Mind.[/B]
[URL]https://www.thebulwark.com/p/biden-getting-older-trump-losing-mind[/URL]
[B]Trump, Dementia, Collective Pathology[/B]
[URL]https://kenmcgoogan.com/2024/05/17/trump-dementia-collective-pathology[/URL]
[B]Our Diagnostic Impression of Trump is Probable Dementia: For Licensed Professionals Only[/B]
[URL]https://www.change.org/p/our-diagnostic-impression-of-trump-is-probable-dementia-for-licensed-professionals-only[/URL]
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2917930]Please indicate: a) where the article states that Ukraine only "captured 1 village" or b) what brought you to the conclusion (based on the above article) that it captures only 1 village.[/QUOTE]When the counter offensive started, the MINIMUM goal was to reach Tokmak. They moved in the direction of Tokmak but were stopped after they captured Robotyne. Now of course while moving on to Robotyne, they captured the land that comes before it. But they didn't even reach Tokmak. The only village / territory they really captured was Robotyne, even the western mainstream media admits that.
Are you disputing that the counter offensive was a colossal failure, and that the AFU were sent on a suicide mission with no aircover?
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2917986]When the counter offensive started, the MINIMUM goal was to reach Tokmak. They moved in the direction of Tokmak but were stopped after they captured Robotyne. Now of course while moving on to Robotyne, they captured the land that comes before it. But they didn't even reach Tokmak. The only village / territory they really captured was Robotyne, even the western mainstream media admits that.
Are you disputing that the counter offensive was a [b]colossal failure[/b], and that the AFU were sent on a suicide mission with no aircover?[/QUOTE]Oh, yes I do. Setback -- yes. Disappointment -- definitely. Colossal failure? Give me a break.
- Putin's failure to capture Kyiv or even Kharkiv in 2022 -- that's a colossal failure.
- The decimation of the Black Sea fleet (by a country that doesn't have a Navy, LOL) -- that's a colossal failure and funny one too.
- Fleeing for their dear lives from Kharkiv and Kherson regions in 2022 -- that's 2 colossal failures.
- Putin's fleeing from Moscow during the Prigozhin mutiny -- that's one colossal and truly hilarious failure.
Compared to these truly colossal failures, the AFU inability to meet the declared goals of the 2023 counter offensive is a very "middle-of-the-road" failure, unpleasant, but limited in its consequences, which doesn't get anywhere close to "colossal". You need to work harder on your vocabulary.
Then of course, there is your own failure to directly answer my question:
[QUOTE]Please indicate: a) where the article states that Ukraine only "captured 1 village" or b) what brought you to the conclusion (based on the above article) that it captures only 1 village.[/QUOTE]Since you simply make things up as you go along, allow me to educate you. Here is a list of settlements liberated by AFU during the 2023 counter offensives.
Robotyne, Pyatikhatky, Rivne, Novodarivka, Neskuchne, Blahodatne, Storozhove, Makarivka, Staromayorske, Andriivka, Klishchiyivka; town Urozhayne.
A little more than "1 village", isn't it?
Work smarter, not harder, will you?
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2918062]
Robotyne, Pyatikhatky, Rivne, Novodarivka, Neskuchne, Blahodatne, Storozhove, Makarivka, Staromayorske, Andriivka, Klishchiyivka; town Urozhayne.
[/QUOTE]Rivne is in western Ukraine. Must have been a tough battle.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2918062]Oh, yes I do. Setback -- yes. Disappointment -- definitely. Colossal failure? Give me a break.
- Putin's failure to capture Kyiv or even Kharkiv in 2022 -- that's a colossal failure.
- The decimation of the Black Sea fleet (by a country that doesn't have a Navy, LOL) -- that's a colossal failure and funny one too.
- Fleeing for their dear lives from Kharkiv and Kherson regions in 2022 -- that's 2 colossal failures.
- Putin's fleeing from Moscow during the Prigozhin mutiny -- that's one colossal and truly hilarious failure.
Compared to these truly colossal failures, the AFU inability to meet the declared goals of the 2023 counter offensive is a very "middle-of-the-road" failure, unpleasant, but limited in its consequences, which doesn't get anywhere close to "colossal". You need to work harder on your vocabulary.
Then of course, there is your own failure to directly answer my question:
Since you simply make things up as you go along, allow me to educate you. Here is a list of settlements liberated by AFU during the 2023 counter offensives.
Robotyne, Pyatikhatky, Rivne, Novodarivka, Neskuchne, Blahodatne, Storozhove, Makarivka, Staromayorske, Andriivka, Klishchiyivka; town Urozhayne.
A little more than "1 village", isn't it?
Work smarter, not harder, will you?[/QUOTE]Xman you are smoking some serious crack. The only one lying and in major denial is you and your buddy Pres. Z.
Ukraine needs to Start negotiating immediately, save what they can, but that would mean the money would stop and the corruption would be exposed. Nothing will be left to fight over. I guess in your crazy ass liberal world that is a win, destroying a country and getting all there men killed, for nothing.
Have you ever been to Ukraine, I have never read one report of you being in Country. At least some of your wacko crazy friends, are still visiting Ukraine. It makes no sense, and shows pure desperation or a death wish looking for cheap pussy in the middle of a major war.
More and more countries have allowed UA to use munitions on Russian soil. In addition there are huge economic problems with Gazprom amongst others which is affecting the war chest. The pivot to Asia delivery from Europe has been a complete failure, whilst "The Power of Siberia 2" pipeline is paused while Xi negotiates better terms with Putler.
Whilst Z team has manpower in droves, it doesn't have lasting economic power.
When Putler broke his LTS contracts in Europe, all the potential customers watched, in the same way they watched when the US seized funds.
Z team is an unreliable partner, which makes the terms for their contracts much more lopsided towards the customer.
This war will continue for a few more years, and the economic collapse in Z land will come before the capitulation of Ukraine and their European partners.
[QUOTE=Riina;2918116]Rivne is in western Ukraine. Must have been a tough battle.[/QUOTE]My bad. Meant Rivnopil, not Rivne.
[QUOTE=Riina;2917713]That guy gets most things wrong, but I did like his recent video about higher rates for way longer.
I don't know about Russian strategy, but I do know it's a shit show for the Westerners that went to fight. Ukrainians basically grind them up and have no respect for their lives. Plenty of reports out there of their terrible experiences, completely out gunned with fractional resources.[/QUOTE]By the way, I noticed your radio silence on Russia's treatment of their foreign mercenaries. Any comments on that?
Just a reminder:
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2917778]
My understanding is that both sides use foreign fighters in their ranks. Seeing that you're so well-versed in these matters, is there anything you could tell us about foreign soldiers fighting for Russia and how are their lives respected by your homeland?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2918062]Oh, yes I do. Setback -- yes. Disappointment -- definitely. Colossal failure? Give me a break.[/QUOTE]Their main goal was to sever the land bridge and reach the sea of Azov. They only reached up to Robotyne, a tiny village to much fanfare. They didn't even reach Tokmak! They lost tens of thousands of some of their best NATO trained soldiers and an enormous amount of NATO supplied hardware. And to you that is a disappointment and a setback. LOL.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2918062]
- Putin's failure to capture Kyiv or even Kharkiv in 2022 -- that's a colossal failure.[/QUOTE]He never tried to capture Kiev or Kharkov for that matter, he didn't have enough troops. You don't have a military background so you don't understand these things, you just believe whatever the pathetic mainstream western media you jerk off to tells you. They told you this 'Kiev in 3 days' narrative and you ran with it. The purpose of the initial invasion was to put pressure on Ukraine and make them realize how serious Russia was and to force them to negotiate, which they did and accepted neutrality in Istanbul in 2022 March until Boris Johnson and USA told Elensky to ditch the talks.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2918062]
- The decimation of the Black Sea fleet (by a country that doesn't have a Navy, LOL) -- that's a colossal failure and funny one too.[/QUOTE]Yes, Russia has suffered losses there. Decimation? Nope.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2918062]
- Fleeing for their dear lives from Kharkiv and Kherson regions in 2022 -- that's 2 colossal failures.[/QUOTE]See my above post regarding Kiev. Regarding Kharkov and Kherson, once again you do not have a military background and do not understand battle so let me school you again little man. Russia made a TACTICAL withdrawal from Kherson and Kharkov because they did not have enough troops on the ground at that time.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2918062]
- Putin's fleeing from Moscow during the Prigozhin mutiny -- that's one colossal and truly hilarious failure.[/QUOTE]And what was the end result? Nothing, just made Putin stronger and a huge disappointment for the collective west.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2918062]
Compared to these truly colossal failures, the AFU inability to meet the declared goals of the 2023 counter offensive is a very "middle-of-the-road" failure, unpleasant, but limited in its consequences, which doesn't get anywhere close to "colossal". You need to work harder on your vocabulary.
Then of course, there is your own failure to directly answer my question:
Since you simply make things up as you go along, allow me to educate you. Here is a list of settlements liberated by AFU during the 2023 counter offensives.
Robotyne, Pyatikhatky, Rivne, Novodarivka, Neskuchne, Blahodatne, Storozhove, Makarivka, Staromayorske, Andriivka, Klishchiyivka; town Urozhayne.
A little more than "1 village", isn't it?
Work smarter, not harder, will you?[/QUOTE]Which of those territories you listed is still controlled by Ukraine? I will wait for your answer. Get to work.
And one more thing I want to clearly point out about the current Russian incursion in Kharkov (before people like Xpartan who suffer from delusions start another propaganda):
The Russians have no intention of capturing Kharkov, they have gone in with a very small force. The aim is to establish a buffer zone to reduce Ukrainian attacks on Belgorod and stretch the already overstretched Ukranian reserves and inflict more attrition on them.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2918396]
The Russians have no intention of capturing Kharkov, they have gone in with a very small force. The aim is to establish a buffer zone to reduce Ukrainian attacks on Belgorod and stretch the already overstretched Ukranian reserves and inflict more attrition on them.[/QUOTE]Normal people know this, but the troll farm really likes making whoppers here.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2918378]Their main goal was to sever the land bridge and reach the sea of Azov. They only reached up to Robotyne, a tiny village to much fanfare. They didn't even reach Tokmak! They lost tens of thousands of some of their best NATO trained soldiers and an enormous amount of NATO supplied hardware. And to you that is a disappointment and a setback. LOL.[/QUOTE]Yes it is. Compared to a series of knockouts the Ukrainians delivered around Kyiv, Kharkov and Kherson in 2022, it's practically nothing.
But that's even beside the point. You said the Ukrainians only liberated 1 village while they liberated more than a dozen. [B]That was a direct lie[/B]. You can't wiggle your way out of it.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2918378]He never tried to capture Kiev or Kharkov for that matter, he didn't have enough troops.[/QUOTE]He never tried to capture Kyiv? Now that's hysterical!
[B]Russias failure to take down Kyiv was a defeat for the ages[/B]
[URL]https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-battle-for-kyiv-dc559574ce9f6683668fa221af2d5340[/URL]
It's a bit early to rewrite history. You'll have to wait for at least a few decades.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2918378]You don't have a military background so you don't understand these things, you just believe whatever the pathetic mainstream western media you jerk off to tells you. They told you this 'Kiev in 3 days' narrative and you ran with it. They told you this 'Kiev in 3 days' narrative and you ran with it. [/QUOTE]Who told me what? Kyiv in 3 days was Russia's propaganda drivel. It's your own colleagues who ran with it, not me. Soloviev, Skabeyeva, Simonyan among others. They all gave Kyiv from 1 to 3 days. Your fuhrer was actually more conservative; his prognosis was 2 weeks. Our "pathetic mainstream western media" simply quoted your own people. Talk to them if you have a problem.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2918378]See my above post regarding Kiev. Regarding Kharkov and Kherson, once again you do not have a military background and do not understand battle so let me school you again little man. [/QUOTE]That's right, I don't have military background. But neither do your generals, it seems.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2918378]Russia made a TACTICAL withdrawal from Kherson and Kharkov[/QUOTE]You forgot a "goodwill gesture", LOL.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2918378]Which of those territories you listed is still controlled by Ukraine? I will wait for your answer. Get to work.[/QUOTE]Yes Sire. Cream and sugar?
[QUOTE=Riina;2918468]Normal people know this, but the troll farm really likes making whoppers here.[/QUOTE]You are a member of the troll farm, evidenced by spelling Kharkiv incorrectly in the Ukrainian forums.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2918559]Who told me what? Kyiv in 3 days was Russia's propaganda drivel. It's your own colleagues who ran with it, not me. Soloviev, Skabeyeva, Simonyan among others. They all gave Kyiv from 1 to 3 days. Your fuhrer was actually more conservative; his prognosis was 2 weeks. Our "pathetic mainstream western media" simply quoted your own people. Talk to them if you have a problem.[/QUOTE]LOL, he's a historian quoting western media, but he reckons the "taking Kyiv in 3 days" is a western story. So unravels the latest Russian shill to infest the Ukrainian forums. Why they never post in the Russia forums, I will not understand.
Remember 99 Red Balloons? Time of the fall of the Berlin Wall is far behind us. Still our dear Korean friends play games. Some would even suggest this is the wonder weapon they are going to send west to get rid of the 'expired President' (good pun) in Kiev. Indeed, what would you do with the expired tuna can? You can't bring it to the community food bank or animal shelter. It's just thrown into the garbage.
[URL]https://youtu.be/lwz3KhjgXLE?si=eW7xdzISk2PG95-2[/URL]
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2918559]Yes it is. Compared to a series of knockouts the Ukrainians delivered around Kyiv, Kharkov and Kherson in 2022, it's practically nothing.[/QUOTE]You obviously do not know what a knock out is LOL. Nor do you understand tactical withdrawals because you do not have a military background.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2918559]
But that's even beside the point. You said the Ukrainians only liberated 1 village while they liberated more than a dozen. [B]That was a direct lie[/B]. You can't wiggle your way out of it.
He never tried to capture Kyiv? Now that's hysterical!
[B]Russias failure to take down Kyiv was a defeat for the ages[/B]
https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-battle-for-kyiv-dc559574ce9f6683668fa221af2d5340
It's a bit early to rewrite history. You'll have to wait for at least a few decades.[/QUOTE]Yes, he didn't. He didn't have enough troops to take Kiev. The SMO was started with a very small number of troops. The goals initially I have already highlighted earlier. It was to coerce Ukraine to sue for peace and accept neutrality. This worked. See Istanbul March 2022. Elesnky is on record saying that Ukraine is ready to accept neutrality. Would you like me to link you to that news? Then Boris Johnson sabotaged it and that is when NATO got involved.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2918559]
Who told me what? Kyiv in 3 days was Russia's propaganda drivel. It's your own colleagues who ran with it, not me. Soloviev, Skabeyeva, Simonyan among others. They all gave Kyiv from 1 to 3 days. Your fuhrer was actually more conservative; his prognosis was 2 weeks. Our "pathetic mainstream western media" simply quoted your own people. Talk to them if you have a problem.[/QUOTE]Yes, the pathetic western MSM you jerk off to came up with the Kiev in 3 days non sense. You can keep running with it. Just like:
Ukraine is winning.
The Russians are running out of ammo.
The Russians are weak and stupid.
The Russians are running out of missiles.
The Russians are running out of drones.
The Arbrams, leopards, storm shadows etc are going to be a game changer.
Ukraine will get Crimea back in summer of 2023 after the counter offensive.
OH did I mention that UKRAINE IS WINNING? LOL.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2918559]
That's right, I don't have military background. But neither do your generals, it seems.
You forgot a "goodwill gesture", LOL.[/QUOTE]Yes, and I do have a military back ground so I will be here to school on military matters so pay close attention.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2918559]
Yes Sire. Cream and sugar?[/QUOTE]Yeah, weaseled your way out of that one. The true mark of a coward. Walk on home, boy.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2918596]You are a member of the troll farm, evidenced by spelling Kharkiv incorrectly in the Ukrainian forums.[/QUOTE]Kharkov, like Odessa, is historically a Russian city. Technically, both spellings are correct.
[QUOTE=Riina;2918468]Normal people know this, but the troll farm really likes making whoppers here.[/QUOTE]Yes, but I just thought I'd make it clear before some of the folks here start another narrative saying that the Russians didn't succeed in capturing Kharkov when they do not have any intention of doing so. Vladimir Putin stated a few months back about the buffer zone inside Kharkov.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2918880]Kharkov, like Odessa, is historically a Russian city. Technically, both spellings are correct.[/QUOTE]Neither Odessa, nor Kharkiv are Russian cities now. So the new spelling is correct. No one is calling Istanbul Constantinople due to historical context.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2918880]Kharkov, like Odessa, is historically a Russian city. [/QUOTE]Interesting. Because Kharkiv was for a couple of years the capital of the Ukrainian Soviet Republic?
Odessa, at least was founded by Catherine, the Great. But then, may be historically it is German?
[QUOTE=VinDici;2918767]LOL, he's a historian quoting western media, but he reckons the "taking Kyiv in 3 days" is a western story. So unravels the latest Russian shill to infest the Ukrainian forums. Why they never post in the Russia forums, I will not understand.[/QUOTE]To me, it's astonishing that they would waste resources on a mongering forum at all. Yet, this is how insane the Russian propaganda machine is. They want to be under every boulder, rock and pebble.
[B]Undermining Ukraine: How Russia widened its global information war in 2023[/B]
[URL]https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/in-depth-research-reports/report/undermining-ukraine-how-russia-widened-its-global-information-war-in-2023[/URL]
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2918879]The true mark of a coward. Walk on home, boy.[/QUOTE]I understand you're upset. But look, I didn't choose your job for you. Get out of the kitchen if you can't take the heat.
When you just began your tenure, you managed to refrain from personal attacks. You came in strong with a rich assortment of lies, half-truths, and demagoguery techniques expecting that these decadent westerners would have no idea what hit them.
So when your lies get unraveled, and you're left with no arguments to counter the cold, hard facts, you become angry and resort to the only tools available to any shill in the world -- deflection and personal attacks. That's plain boring.
You've degenerated in just a matter of days. Sad!
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2919007]I understand you're upset. But look, I didn't choose your job for you. Get out of the kitchen if you can't take the heat.
When you just began your tenure, you managed to refrain from personal attacks. You came in strong with a rich assortment of lies, half-truths, and demagoguery techniques expecting that these decadent westerners would have no idea what hit them.
So when your lies get unraveled, and you're left with no arguments to counter the cold, hard facts, you become angry and resort to the only tools available to any shill in the world -- deflection and personal attacks. That's plain boring.
You've degenerated in just a matter of days. Sad![/QUOTE]Selective quoting. I understand. You have no rebuttal. Like I said, walk on home boy.
P.S. Ukraine is winning.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2918935]Neither Odessa, nor Kharkiv are Russian cities now. So the new spelling is correct. No one is calling Istanbul Constantinople due to historical context.[/QUOTE]I do think that Putin will end up capturing and annexing both Kharkiv and Odessa, and everything east of the Dniper. After that, I really don't know what he has in mind to be honest. He may very well end up taking 4 more Oblasts in addition to the 4 he partially controls + Crimea. The longer this tragic needless war continues, the more territory Ukraine will lose.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2919138]I..The longer this tragic needless war continues, the more territory Ukraine will lose.[/QUOTE]Xpartan just remarked on how ubiquitous Russian disinformation is, even here on a sex website. To be fair, Russian disinformation is not just everywhere, it has been incredibly effective -- maximum results with very little effort. Truly, Russia punches far above its weight. It has been amazing how a backwards country with an economy smaller than Italy's has been able to achieve strategic outcomes only through propaganda. How is this campaign funded? How much is this poster paid to do his work on this forum?
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2919185]Xpartan just remarked on how ubiquitous Russian disinformation is, even here on a sex website. To be fair, Russian disinformation is not just everywhere, it has been incredibly effective -- maximum results with very little effort. Truly, Russia punches far above its weight. It has been amazing how a backwards country with an economy smaller than Italy's has been able to achieve strategic outcomes only through propaganda. How is this campaign funded? How much is this poster paid to do his work on this forum?[/QUOTE]You can only post rubbish and can't dispute facts because you cannot debate. Ukraine is losing territory daily.
How much territory has Ukraine lost in 2024?
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2919218]How much territory has Ukraine lost in 2024?[/QUOTE]This is a war of attrition. Ukraine is trading small villages and towns for massive Russian losses. This is the 243 day of the Russian offensive, in this time they have almost 2900 armored vehicles + artillery destroyed plus 1100 more abandoned. Do you think that's sustainable?
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2919218]You can only post rubbish and can't dispute facts because you cannot debate. Ukraine is losing territory daily.
How much territory has Ukraine lost in 2024?[/QUOTE]880 square kilometers.
[URL]https://youtu.be/kF_1ggbDPQw?si=4j5tyqdSVlZXuVEN[/URL]
In March 2022, the RuZZians were occupying 27% of Ukraine.
Right now, they're only controlling 17%.
They lose 1,200-1,500 soldiers every single day.
The Black Sea in Crimea is practically a no-sail zone for the RuZZians.
RuZZia gets hit daily, including areas up to 1,100 miles away from the border.
The length of Nato borders with RuZZia has more than doubled.
Of course, there is also a tiny-teeny matter of RuZZia having turned into an openly fascist state, but I promised numbers so numbers you get.
Good job comradZ. Keep winning!
[QUOTE=MagicM;2919246]This is a war of attrition. Ukraine is trading small villages and towns for massive Russian losses. This is the 243 day of the Russian offensive, in this time they have almost 2900 armored vehicles + artillery destroyed plus 1100 more abandoned. Do you think that's sustainable?[/QUOTE]Do you believe everything the pathetic mainstream western media tells you?
Do you think Ukraine is winning?
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2919381]Do you believe everything the pathetic mainstream western media tells you?
Do you think Ukraine is winning?[/QUOTE]Is Russia winning?
[QUOTE=VinDici;2919386]Is Russia winning?[/QUOTE]Yes.
The AFU are being decimated. Ukraine is out of manpower; the mobilization has not gone well. Not many men want to go to the meat grinder and die for nothing, who can blame them? The west cannot supply Ukraine the weapons in the amount it needs, it can send money yes, but it can't print manpower. And you're forgetting that the collective west does not want to help Ukraine win, they want to make Russia weak. The two are not the same, are they now?
This is a war of attrition and Russia is slowly destroying AFU, one of the goals of the SMO (demilitarization). I'd be surprised if this thing goes past the end of this summer or by the end of 2024 maximum. A collapse of AFU also cannot be ruled out.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2919505]Yes.
The AFU are being decimated. Ukraine is out of manpower[/QUOTE]Decimated, huh? If you say so.
Total RuZZian losses: 507,000.
Daily RuZZian losses (or over 1,000 people on average):
- Category 7 the 30 the 3 m 6 m 1 why.
- Personnel 1244.3 1260.3 1022.3 975.6 819.9.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2919505]Yes.
The AFU are being decimated.
Not many men want to go to the meat grinder and die for nothing, who can blame them? The west cannot supply Ukraine the weapons in the amount it needs, it can send money yes, but it can't print manpower. And you're forgetting that the collective west does not want to help Ukraine win, they want to make Russia weak. The two are not the same, are they now?
This is a war of attrition and Russia is slowly destroying AFU, one of the goals of the SMO (demilitarization). I'd be surprised if this thing goes past the end of this summer or by the end of 2024 maximum. A collapse of AFU also cannot be ruled out.[/QUOTE]AFU decimated? The losses on Z team are an order of magnitude worse.
Meat grinder? It's not the AFU that are running a meat grinder strategy. You are confusing them with the Z team.
The West does not want Russia to win, they will not allow that. Trump would, but he is a traitor to democracy.
There is no SMO, it's an invasion, occupation and war. May I remind you this is the Ukrainian forums, and we don't have to lie to ourselves here.
You predict a collapse of the AFU by September 2024?
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2919517]Decimated, huh? If you say so.
Total RuZZian losses: 507,000.
Daily RuZZian losses (or over 1,000 people on average):
- Category 7 the 30 the 3 m 6 m 1 why.
- Personnel 1244.3 1260.3 1022.3 975.6 819.9.[/QUOTE]Keep believing the lies from the western MSM. They also told you that Ukraine is winning, would get Crimea back last year and that the counter offensive would result in AFU reaching the Sea of Azov and severing the land bridge.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2919523]AFU decimated? The losses on Z team are an order of magnitude worse.
Meat grinder? It's not the AFU that are running a meat grinder strategy. You are confusing them with the Z team.
The West does not want Russia to win, they will not allow that. Trump would, but he is a traitor to democracy.
There is no SMO, it's an invasion, occupation and war. May I remind you this is the Ukrainian forums, and we don't have to lie to ourselves here.
You predict a collapse of the AFU by September 2024?[/QUOTE]I don't predict it; I'm saying there is a high probability of it happening and it cannot be ruled out.
As for the losses, let's be honest here. NO ONE knows for sure how many casualties each side has suffered, but in my view, the losses suffered by AFU are much higher. Even if we say both sides have suffered equal or the Russians more, you have to keep in mind that Russia can replace the soldiers due to the fact that they have 3 x the population compared to Ukraine. Ukraine cannot replace the manpower now. It is simple math if you can be objective and look at the reality.
This cannot go on for a long time. Ukraine is out of manpower. Even if you give them all the weapons they are asking for, who is going to operate them? Unless NATO gets involved on the ground, which is not going to happen. Ukraine is doomed. I say that with no happiness. I'm NOT a Russian. I don't have a horse in this race. This is an enormous tragedy that could've easily been avoided. I blame the warmongers in NATO and the west. They took Ukraine down the primrose path. May God punish them one day.
[URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Be-lZSZSqM[/URL]
Look at this beautiful thing. Big anti war protest in Europe. Sign of things to come.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2919615]Keep believing the lies from the western MSM.[/QUOTE]You're a Russia state employee: lying is what you do for a living.
[QUOTE=Riina;2919754][URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Be-lZSZSqM[/URL]
Look at this beautiful thing. Big anti war protest in Europe. Sign of things to come.[/QUOTE]You did it fellas! First, you survived the Ukraine's counteroffensive last year, and now this.
Big success, as Borat would say.
"In Europe" LOL!
[QUOTE=Riina;2919754][URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Be-lZSZSqM[/URL]
Look at this beautiful thing. Big anti war protest in Europe. Sign of things to come.[/QUOTE][URL]https://x.com/AndrewPerpetua/status/1796998318624481346[/URL]
Look at this beautiful thing. Huge Russian column absolutely obliterated. Sign of things to come.
[URL]https://x.com/randymot4/status/1797603919893504381[/URL]
[QUOTE]The Russian Army has been ordered to make a major breakthrough to score political points to attempt to force a ceasefire. This explains the suicidal attacks and huge casualties. It has failed and resulted in an 8 to 1 kill ratio.[/QUOTE]These are horrific casualty figures, an army that sends people to their deaths in this senseless way is pure evil. Pyrrhic warfare from the Z Team as usual.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2919908][URL]https://x.com/randymot4/status/1797603919893504381[/URL]
These are horrific casualty figures, an army that sends people to their deaths in this senseless way is pure evil. Pyrrhic warfare from the Z Team as usual.[/QUOTE]Hard to call it Pyrrhic. Pyrrhus was a brilliant commander and he did win his battle. Russian military "geniuses" are simply sending troops to their death without a plan or strategy, just to please the boss.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2919908][URL]https://x.com/randymot4/status/1797603919893504381[/URL]
These are horrific casualty figures, an army that sends people to their deaths in this senseless way is pure evil. Pyrrhic warfare from the Z Team as usual.[/QUOTE]Are you keeping track of AFU casualties? Or do you believe the figure put out by the actor Zelensky - 33 K?
Maybe next month Bill Shorten will award a small disability pension to the expired clown.
We use technical control as well as verified obituaries, cemetery records, social media and confirmations by the family members to add to the tally. The information has been released to the press.
This all has been a horrible tragedy as we fight each other for ten years, fight an image in a mirror, fight with ourselves, which in part explains the difficulty.
We always collected the debts in the past, and we are going to collect them this time.
[QUOTE=Questner;2920018]Maybe next month Bill Shorten will award a small disability pension to the expired clown.
We use technical control as well as verified obituaries, cemetery records, social media and confirmations by the family members to add to the tally. The information has been released to the press.
This all has been a horrible tragedy as we fight each other for ten years, fight an image in a mirror, fight with ourselves, which in part explains the difficulty.
We always collected the debts in the past, and we are going to collect them this time.[/QUOTE]Nothing you write makes sense, maybe the Russian ChatGPT needs fine tuning. If you have numbers and a source share them, otherwise keep this nonsensical cod-wash to yourself.
It's time to introduce the Speaker of the Rada, Mr. Stefanchuk, obviously a very hungry man. Just run a google translate of today's article here: [URL]https://www.kp.ru/daily/27590/4941386/[/URL].
Note: The article directly mentions NABU, and it's not a planet from The Star Wars but rather [URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Anti-Corruption_Bureau_of_Ukraine[/URL].
[QUOTE=Questner;2920254]It's time to introduce the Speaker of the Rada, Mr. Stefanchuk, obviously a very hungry man. Just run a google translate of today's article here: [URL]https://www.kp.ru/daily/27590/4941386/[/URL].
Note: The article directly mentions NABU, and it's not a planet from The Star Wars but rather [URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Anti-Corruption_Bureau_of_Ukraine[/URL].[/QUOTE]You are aware that Russian lies and propaganda doesn't work the same way outside of Z Land? It especially doesn't work in Ukraine.
[QUOTE=Questner;2920018]
We always collected the debts in the past, and we are going to collect them this time.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=VinDici;2920079]Nothing you write makes sense, maybe the Russian ChatGPT needs fine tuning. If you have numbers and a source share them, otherwise keep this nonsensical cod-wash to yourself.[/QUOTE]Actually this does make sense. This is a Russian "imperialist" accidentally telling us what he really thinks.
Clearly, Ukraine owes Questner a debt. A big one.
But the thing is, it doesn't end with Ukraine. Every former Russian / Soviet colony owes Questner a debt. Kazakhstan, Armenia, Moldova, you name it.
Then there are the Baltics. Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia were always a bit different. So it shouldn't come as a surprise that they've been trying to get as far away from their creditor as humanly possible. Ingrates!
And don't get me started on Eastern Europe, especially the Poles who too seem to owe a hell of a debt to Questners, more than anyone else, (after Ukraine and the Baltics), of course.
But that doesn't mean the rest of the world is safe. Like Questner's chieftan once said: "Russia's borders don't end anywhere".
That's a literal quote, by the way. I'm not making this up.
How are Questners collecting debts? Very simply, really. Think of Mariupol, the city that doesn't exist anymore where tens of thousands of dead civilians are lying in mass graves or under the rubbles and new, hastily erected buildings. First bombs, then bulldozers. No efforts are spared to make the identification of human remains impossible.
That's the fate of every Ukrainian city if they allow Questners to freeze this war, so they could catch a break and grow new meat for their war grinders.
In fact, the Ukrainians don't really have a choice. They must fight to the bitter end or face the annihilation. The West must support Ukraine's heroic effort with all its might and stop telling them where they're allowed and not allowed to shoot.
The world must stop Questners from collecting their homicidal debts. It's really that simple.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2920836]... The world must stop Questners from collecting their homicidal debts. It's really that simple.[/QUOTE][URL]https://x.com/NatalkaKyiv/status/1798537710120153373[/URL]
Interesting that you mention the Russians collecting debts, according to a leading Russian economist, their own economy is undergoing a suicide. So their ability to pay their own debts, is something they really need to worry about.
Too much focus abroad and not enough focus on the needs of their own people.
But as you say, they live in a demented imperial mindset, whereby conquest seems like a better thing that providing basic 1950's level plumbing to the whole population.
Thank god UA is fighting back, otherwise they will have to endure this kind of horrific tyranny.
Looks like we are a step closer to ending the dumb war.
[QUOTE=Riina;2921573]Looks like we are a step closer to ending the dumb war.[/QUOTE]What do you mean? Can you please explain?
[QUOTE=Riina;2921573]Looks like we are a step closer to ending the dumb war.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=VinDici;2921636]What do you mean? Can you please explain?[/QUOTE]That's a Russian "denazifier" basking in Marine FASCIST LE Pen's EU victory, LOL. The one who brought a bag full of cash from Moscow.
What he fails to understand, though, is that politicians try to avoid being associated with losers. Fascists more than anyone.
Russia has started releasing female prison inmates to join the war in Ukraine. A group of women from a prison near St. Petersburg were released in late May to join the fighting.
[URL]https://x.com/clashreport/status/1800222766878347361[/URL]
Now that the men's prisons are empty, the Z crew has to get cannon fodder from the women's prisons.
Glad that more aid is coming to UA, things are getting very interesting.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2921740]That's a Russian "denazifier" basking in Marine FASCIST LE Pen's EU victory, LOL.[/QUOTE]Very deceiving how you tag stuff en aye zee and fascist. Most of that far right vote is nothing more than older people that don't want illegal immigration and wars.
In memoriam of Daniel Dennet: Maybe philosophical robots indeed do exist. They are heartless and brainless and only appear to exist.
As Mr. Lavrov recently stated as a perfect diplomat, The West started 'to vibrate', meaning 'to shiver' that is 'to fear'. Not only the few Western potential military targets were purposefully leaked in mass media (and we leak them too), but even countries. From 1 kt per airstrip to 75 kt to per base.
The only hope we will strike a deal with the elites in Ukraine faster than your mummy with an ice cream in his waning hand turns everything into ashes.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2921862]Russia has started releasing female prison inmates to join the war in Ukraine. A group of women from a prison near St. Petersburg were released in late May to join the fighting.
[URL]https://x.com/clashreport/status/1800222766878347361[/URL]
Now that the men's prisons are empty, the Z crew has to get cannon fodder from the women's prisons.
Glad that more aid is coming to UA, things are getting very interesting.[/QUOTE]Again, you guys are delusional. Ukraine has been using women in the front lines for over a year, probably longer, but you guys conveniently leave this out. Why start dealing in Reality now, keep watching CNN and your other crazy liberal channels.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2922015]Ukraine has been using women in the front lines for over a year, probably longer,[/QUOTE]What you left yout, is the fact, that the women from UA serving in the Ukrainian army, to fight against the Orks, do it voluntarily. And are NOT former criminals.
[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2922062]What you left yout, is the fact, that the women from UA serving in the Ukrainian army, to fight against the Orks, do it voluntarily. And are NOT former criminals.[/QUOTE]He always does this. Half truths or outright lies. No sources, no evidence.
[URL]https://x.com/wartranslated/status/1800436192737145280[/URL]
Lovely to read this sentiment amongst the Orc milbloggers.
[URL]https://news.liga.net/en/politics/news/russians-falsely-claim-victory-in-battle-for-ukraine-village-that-hasnt-existed-for-37-years[/URL]
Orcs falsely claim victory in battle for Ukraine village that hasn't existed for 37 years.
The Russian Ministry of Defense fabricated the capture of two Ukrainian villages in Luhansk and Kharkiv oblasts.
The Orcs have once again lied about the seizure of several settlements, including one that has not existed for 37 years, Nazar Voloshyn, a spokesman for the Khortytsia Operational-Strategic Group, said in a comment to [URL]LIGA.net[/URL].
On June 11, the Russian Ministry of Defense released a statement claiming that occupiers had taken control of the villages of Artemivka in the Luhansk Oblast and Tymkivka in the Kharkiv Oblast. Voloshyn said that the village of Tymkivka had been abolished in 1987. In addition, Artemivka was renamed Myasozharivka in 2016 as part of the decommunization process.
"Currently, Myasozharivka is under the control of the Ukrainian Defense Forces!" the spokesperson stated.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2922015]Again, you guys are delusional. Ukraine has been using women in the front lines for over a year, probably longer, but you guys conveniently leave this out. Why start dealing in Reality now, keep watching CNN and your other crazy liberal channels.[/QUOTE]Now they are turning to convicts too. The average age of the Ukrainian soldier is 43. What's next, teenagers to the meat grinder? Until the last Ukrainian. Horrific.
https://www.politico.eu/article/ukrainian-parliament-approves-voluntary-mobilization-of-convicts-for-war-ukraine-russia/
[URL]https://x.com/JayinKyiv/status/1801151035722932499[/URL]
-Moscow Stock Exchange down -15%.
-Largest Russian banks have halted withdrawals.
- Largest Russian banks and brokerages' websites are offline, client logins no longer work.
[URL]https://mil.in.ua/en/news/argentina-becomes-a-new-member-of-the-ukraine-defense-contact-group/[/URL]
Argentina became a new member of the Ukraine Defense Contact Group (UDCG) in the Ramstein format.
US Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin announced this during a speech.
He stated that he was pleased to see Argentina as a new member of the Ukraine Defense Contact Group.
"I am pleased to welcome Argentina as a new member of the Contact Group. Mr. Petri, I am glad to have you with us. The stakes in this war are high. None of us wants to live in a world dominated by Putin. That is why we have a lot of work ahead of us, and I am confident that this coalition will continue to meet the challenges," the US Secretary of Defense said.
Nice to see this, further cements Milei's position of not aligning with BRICS.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2922502]Now they are turning to convicts too. The average age of the Ukrainian soldier is 43. What's next, teenagers to the meat grinder? Until the last Ukrainian. Horrific.
https://www.politico.eu/article/ukrainian-parliament-approves-voluntary-mobilization-of-convicts-for-war-ukraine-russia/[/QUOTE]One question though: why aren't you concerned when your people are doing the same thing?
Actually, strike that. The Ukrainians don't recruit rapists and murderers. Or female convicts for that matter.
So not the same thing.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2922538]One question though: why aren't you concerned when your people are doing the same thing?
Actually, strike that. The Ukrainians don't recruit rapists and murderers. Or female convicts for that matter.
So not the same thing.[/QUOTE]First of all, I'm not Russian. I do care about the innocent brave Ukrainian people that are suffering from this savage needless war, which could've easily been avoided. And which could've easily been stopped in March 2022 in Istanbul.
With regards to Russia using convicts, that is well documented. Do I agree with it? No, I don't. But now the Ukrainians are doing the exact same thing. That's all I'm pointing out.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2922522][URL]https://x.com/JayinKyiv/status/1801151035722932499[/URL]
-Moscow Stock Exchange down -15%.
-Largest Russian banks have halted withdrawals.
- Largest Russian banks and brokerages' websites are offline, client logins no longer work.[/QUOTE][URL]https://www.bbc.com/news/business-68823399[/URL]
Russia to grow faster than all advanced economies says IMF
An influential global body has forecast Russia's economy will grow faster than all of the world's advanced economies, including the US, this year.
The International Monetary Fund (IMF) expects Russia to grow 3. 2% this year, significantly more than the UK, France and Germany.
Oil exports have "held steady" and government spending has "remained high" contributing to growth, the IMF said.
P.S. UKRAINE IS WINNING.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2922640][URL]https://www.bbc.com/news/business-68823399[/URL]
Russia to grow faster than all advanced economies says IMF[/QUOTE]IMF has been using figures sent in by the Russians without scrutinising them. If you really want to know how the Russian economy is doing, you need to look at other factors, like satellite imagery of industrial production, energy consumption, etc that can be validated without Kremlin stats.
None of those metrics show growth of any kind, rather the opposite, which makes sense considering everything you see in terms of the flight from Russia of the youth and intelligentsia, as well the the effect of the sanctions.
Just look at the figures from GazProm, they are not good reading.
If you seriously believe that Russia is a growth economy at the moment, then buy the dip at the stock exchange.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2922649]IMF has been using figures sent in by the Russians without scrutinising them. If you really want to know how the Russian economy is doing, you need to look at other factors, like satellite imagery of industrial production, energy consumption, etc that can be validated without Kremlin stats.
None of those metrics show growth of any kind, rather the opposite, which makes sense considering everything you see in terms of the flight from Russia of the youth and intelligentsia, as well the the effect of the sanctions.
Just look at the figures from GazProm, they are not good reading.
If you seriously believe that Russia is a growth economy at the moment, then buy the dip at the stock exchange.[/QUOTE]Just to be clear, IMF means USA. I don't think they would be using info put out by the Russians.
Would it be fair to say the sanctions imposed on Russia by the collective west didn't have the desired outcome?
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2922744]Just to be clear, IMF means USA. I don't think they would be using info put out by the Russians.[/QUOTE]I think you need to check on this.
As for desired outcomes, the sanctions bleed the Russians and are having the desired effect of weakening their economy and isolating them internationally. So they are working as intended.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2922639]First of all, I'm not Russian. [/QUOTE]Look, somebody calls me a Russian shill, I won't be waiting for days and weeks to react.
There is a famous joke wrongly attributed to Churchill that goes like this. A man is asking a woman:
[QUOTE]He: Madam, would you sleep with me for a million pounds?
She: Well, I suppose, I could.
He: How about one pound?
She: How dare you! What kind of woman do you think I am?
He: We’ve already established that. Now we’re negotiating.[/QUOTE]See, I've never said you're an ethnic Russian, although I think you are (might be wrong, though). But it doesn't matter. You don't need to be Russian to be employed by Russia. And you're not a useful idiot either. No one in their sound mind would simply repeat Putin's soundbites over and over and over again. Everything coming from you, one way or another, has been introduced by Putin's propagandists. No 'honest' useful idiot could talk the way you do.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2922639]I do care about the innocent brave Ukrainian people that are suffering from this savage needless war, which could've easily been avoided. And which could've easily been stopped in March 2022 in Istanbul.[/QUOTE]Right. More bullshit.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2922639]With regards to Russia using convicts, that is well documented. Do I agree with it? No, I don't. But now the Ukrainians are doing the exact same thing. That's all I'm pointing out.[/QUOTE]not the exact same thing. Ukrainians do not recruit rapists, murderers and female convicts, which has been pointed out to you and is also well documented.
Keep doing a great job on this important, decision-making forum, LOL.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2922639]First of all, I'm not Russian. [/QUOTE]Look, somebody calls me a Russian shill, I won't be waiting for days and weeks to react.
There is a famous joke wrongly attributed to Churchill that goes like this. A man is asking a woman:
[QUOTE]He: Madam, would you sleep with me for a million pounds?
She: Well, I suppose, I could.
He: How about one pound?
She: How dare you! What kind of woman do you think I am?
He: Weve already established that. Now were negotiating.[/QUOTE]See, I've never said you're an ethnic Russian, although I think you are (might be wrong, though). But it doesn't matter. You don't need to be Russian to be employed by Russia. And you're not a useful idiot either. No one in their sound mind would simply repeat Putin's soundbites over and over and over again. Everything coming from you, one way or another, has been introduced by Putin's propagandists. No 'honest' useful idiot could talk the way you do.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2922639]I do care about the innocent brave Ukrainian people that are suffering from this savage needless war, which could've easily been avoided. And which could've easily been stopped in March 2022 in Istanbul.[/QUOTE]Right. More bullshit.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2922639]With regards to Russia using convicts, that is well documented. Do I agree with it? No, I don't. But now the Ukrainians are doing the exact same thing. That's all I'm pointing out.[/QUOTE]NOT the exact same thing. Ukrainians do not recruit rapists, murderers and female convicts, which has been pointed out to you and is also well documented.
Keep doing a great job on this important, decision-making forum, LOL.
Four conditions for negotiations with Kiev: what Putin said at Foreign Ministry: Russia considers Ukraine's neutral, non-aligned, non-nuclear status and the lifting of all Western sanctions as a necessary condition - [URL]https://tass.com/politics/1803575[/URL] and [URL]https://tass.com/politics/1803657[/URL].
MOSCOW, June 14. / TASS /. Russia today makes another true peace proposal to Kiev, which envisages the recognition of the Donetsk and Lugansk people's republics, as well as the Kherson and Zaporozhye regions as Russian territories, the consolidation of Ukraine's non-aligned and nuclear-free status, its demilitarization and denazification, and the lifting of anti-Russian sanctions, Russian President Vladimir Putin said at a meeting with senior diplomats.
Today we are making another concrete, real peace proposal to Kiev, he said.
Putin went on to list Russia's terms for a settlement. As soon as Kiev agrees to these conditions, agrees to completely withdraw its troops from the DPR, LPR, Zaporozhye and Kherson regions and actually launches this process, we are ready to start negotiations without delay. I repeat, our principled position is as follows: the neutral, non-aligned, non-nuclear status of Ukraine, its demilitarization and denazification. What's more, these parameters were generally agreed upon by everyone back during the Istanbul talks in 2022. Everything was clear regarding demilitarization, everything was spelled out, including the number of tanks, and everything was agreed upon. Of course, the rights and freedoms of Russian-speaking citizens in Ukraine must be fully ensured, the new territorial realities and the status of Crimea, Sevastopol, the Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republics, the Kherson and Zaporozhye regions as Russian constituencies must be recognized. In the future, all these basic, principled provisions should be recorded in terms of fundamental international agreements, he said.
All Western sanctions imposed on Russia should also be abolished. Of course, this also means the lifting of all Western sanctions against Russia, the president said.
Putin emphasized that Russia's plan would mean ending the conflict once and for all, not freezing it. The essence of our proposal is not some kind of temporary truce or suspension of fire, as the West wants, in order to restore losses, rearm the Kiev regime, and prepare it for a new offensive. I repeat, we are not talking about freezing the conflict, but about bringing it to an end, the president said.
The Russian leader added that if Kiev and Western countries once again refuse Russia's offer, the settlement conditions will become stricter. If Kiev and Western capitals refuse it, as before, then, after all, this is their business, their political and moral responsibility to continue the bloodshed. Obviously, the realities on the ground, on the line of engagement will continue to change, and not in favor of the Kiev regime. The conditions for the start of negotiations will change, he clarified.
Applauding King's English:
[URL]https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jun/13/meloni-in-the-pink-as-she-consoles-procession-of-dead-men-walking[/URL]
Meloni in the pink as she consoles procession of dead men walking.
Patrick Wintour.
Italian PM was all smiles at start of G7 summit as she met parade of haunted-looking statesmen, most of whose days in power are numbered.
Never has a host had so little in common with her guests. Standing serene in a salmon pink trouser suit having topped the poll in the European parliamentary elections, Italy's far-right leader, Giorgia Meloni, waited to greet her fellow G7 leaders. She stood on a small stage under an awning and an azure sky with the backdrop a suspiciously imported-looking olive tree, a pointless rustic water pipe and the brash G7 flags discreetly put to one side so they did not spoil the view's centrepiece – Meloni herself.
To her right was a large stone arch that acts as the entranceway to Borgo Egnazia, the purpose-built "medieval" holiday complex giving celebrities an authentic sense of Puglia's rural life, including a Michelin-starred restaurant, spas and wellness clinics.
In intervals of three or so minutes, haunted-looking world leaders one by one trooped through the arch to be greeted by their host. Hollowed and broken by the electoral battlefield, it was a parade of the living dead. They each received a consoling handshake and photograph with Meloni.
The suited statesmen bore the look of people who knew this was their last such summit, and who if they could would have skipped the opening session on Africa and migration and instead headed straight into the wellness clinic and locked the door.
One of the first through the arch of shame was Charles Michel, the outgoing European Council president reportedly plotting to prevent the commission president, Ursula von der Leyen, from being given a second term. The two top EU officials pointedly did not arrive together, and Meloni is said to be arbiter of von der Leyen's future. Michel was given the quickest of handshakes before being dispatched by the Italian prime minister to sign a pointless-looking piece of declaratory paper, a sort of G7 visitor's book. He looked as enthused as a man signing his own death warrant.
Next through the arch was Rishi Sunak, 21 days away from what may be the biggest Conservative party rout in history. At the last G7 summit, in Japan, Sunak had been the life and soul of the party, wearing the red socks of the Hiroshima baseball team, Toyo Carp. This year the socks were funeral black, and after his now notorious early departure from the-day commemorations in Normandy, his minder's only instruction will have been to stay right until the last glass has been washed and put away. Meloni, an insurgent in office, and Sunak, an incumbent, may be Eurosceptic buddies but are on very different glide paths.
Next through the arch came that great wordsmith, Olaf Scholz, the German chancellor, still digesting a set of results in which his party scored 13.9%, a record low for the European parliament, faring worse than the scandal-ridden, far-right Alternative füare Deutschland.
No sooner was Meloni waving off Scholz than the Japanese prime minister, Fumio Kishida, arrived. Two days ago he will have discovered that his popularity had fallen to 21%, a record low. He faces the prospect of being thrown out by his own party in September, and as he was ushered away by Meloni to sign the G7 death warrant, she could have been thinking that here was one man she would not be seeing at the next G7 in Canada.
But if she had pity for Kishida, look who was next. Through the arch of shame came another lame duck, albeit a well-presented one, in the form of Justin Trudeau – blue suit, brown shoes, big smiles and a poll rating that is at a 50-year record low for his party, driven in part by opposition to his green policies. There again, most politicians are hated in Canada. He is widely expected to lose next year.
The next arrival was Emmanuel Macron, the gelignite still on his suit from just having blown up French politics, and in the process possibly destroyed his own party. In their brief exchange Meloni would have been looking for signs of residual sanity in a man recently driven mad by fighting populism. Given that Meloni, with her party's fascist roots, represents much of what he is trying to unmask and defeat in France, the exchange between the two was courteous.
And then, with one leader to go, there was a pause, followed by a further pause, and another one, as Meloni adopted an infinite variety of patient poses waiting for the president of the United States. As time passed, she inspected the water pipe, took a selfie with the photographers, motioned for a chair and even gave a disparaging glance at the nylon flags spoiling the authenticity of her venue.
Meloni may even have reflected on the fleeting nature of power, or on whether Joe Biden's driver had got lost in the medieval village. But then, 21 minutes late, the president arrived, wearing dark glasses and moving gingerly through the arch and on to the stage, a raw display of mortality.
Given the vastness of the G7 agenda over the next two days, and the collective power of the G7 economies, it was not an altogether reassuring opening passage. Perhaps the summit's first session should have been on politics.
[QUOTE=Questner;2922814]Four conditions for negotiations with Kiev: what Putin said at Foreign Ministry: Russia considers Ukraine's neutral, non-aligned, non-nuclear status and the lifting of all Western sanctions as a necessary condition [/QUOTE]Delusional.
TL: DR Give Russia everything, no reparations, no return of kidnapped Ukrainian children, remove sanctions and don't join NATO so Z team can try again in 5 years.
[QUOTE=Questner;2922814]
The Russian leader added that if Kiev and Western countries once again refuse Russia's offer, the settlement conditions will become stricter. If Kiev and Western capitals refuse it, as before, then, after all, this is their business, their political and moral responsibility to continue the bloodshed. Obviously, the realities on the ground, on the line of engagement will continue to change, and not in favor of the Kiev regime. The conditions for the start of negotiations will change, he clarified.[/QUOTE]Probably the most important part of what Putin said. The longer this goes on, the more territory Ukraine will lose, the more difficult the peace terms will be.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2922808]
NOT the exact same thing. Ukrainians do not recruit rapists, murderers and female convicts, which has been pointed out to you and is also well documented.
[/QUOTE]How do you know this? Have you seen the file of each Ukrainian convict that they are recruiting and verified that none of them were convicted for rape or murder?
[QUOTE=VinDici;2922759]I think you need to check on this.
As for desired outcomes, the sanctions bleed the Russians and are having the desired effect of weakening their economy and isolating them internationally. So they are working as intended.[/QUOTE]Ukraine is also winning.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2922934]Delusional.
TL: DR Give Russia everything, no reparations, no return of kidnapped Ukrainian children, remove sanctions and don't join NATO so Z team can try again in 5 years.[/QUOTE]Are you not aware of the fact that Zelensky was ready to accept neutrality in March 2022 in Istanbul? Obviously, the negotiations will have some give and take, but the 4 new territories + Crimea staying with Russia and neutrality for Ukraine are nonnegotiable IMO.
I think the proposition is pretty good. Take it now before he adds Kharkov and Odessa.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2923000]Are you not aware of the fact that Zelensky was ready to accept neutrality in March 2022 in Istanbul? Obviously, the negotiations will have some give and take, but the 4 new territories + Crimea staying with Russia and neutrality for Ukraine are nonnegotiable IMO.[/QUOTE]Having a party that reneges on every agreement is also something that makes terms non negotiable.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2922939]Probably the most important part of what Putin said. The longer this goes on, the more territory Ukraine will lose, the more difficult the peace terms will be.[/QUOTE]No, the most important part of what he said was that they didn't even want to take Kyiv, LOL. What a funny dude!
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2922940]How do you know this? Have you seen the file of each Ukrainian convict that they are recruiting and verified that none of them were convicted for rape or murder?[/QUOTE]I know this because the Rada bill specifically states "those who committed serious crimes including murder, rape, terrorism, dealing drugs and treason, will be ineligible to trade their jail terms for the defense of their country. ".
Another reason why I know this is that if the Ukrainians were indeed recruiting murderers and rapists, we wouldn't hear the end of it from you and your "colleagues".
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2923000]... but the 4 new territories + Crimea staying with Russia and neutrality for Ukraine are nonnegotiable IMO.[/QUOTE]Let's bookmark this post and see how well it ages.
I can be very critical on the accuracy, intentions, omissions and the character of the article, still here it is:
[URL]https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/06/15/world/europe/ukraine-russia-ceasefire-deal.html[/URL]
And the English text of the documents:
[URL]https://static01.nyt.com/newsgraphics/documenttools/e548b273c4d42a3a/5e73b566-full.pdf[/URL]
[URL]https://static01.nyt.com/newsgraphics/documenttools/ba6c7377883d7829/f5aff231-full.pdf[/URL]
[URL]https://static01.nyt.com/newsgraphics/documenttools/a456d6dd8e27e830/e279a252-full.pdf[/URL]
Remember, there is another maximum plan as promoted by the former RF President Mr. Medvedev who is a member of the Security Counsel, and who plays a bad cop if you wish, a plan that is shared by many which means total territorial integration of Ukraine into the RF.
As an alternative, the next step may bring forward a creation of a parallel Ukrainian government in Kharkov, which was a capital of Donbass in 1917 and later a capital of Ukraine from 1918 to 1934.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2923082]Let's bookmark this post and see how well it ages.[/QUOTE]Notice Putin didn't mention Kharkov and Odessa. Yet. He hinted at it by saying that the terms will become more difficult the longer this goes on.
At Istanbul 2022 it was just the Donbas and Crimea plus neutrality.
530,000 dead and crippled; 30% of Navy destroyed; targets INSIDE RUZZIA get blown up day in and day out and they issue ultimatums!
What clowns!
Nothing they're saying matters. What this guy's saying -- that matters.
[B]Putin is in no position to make demands of Ukraine for peace, US defense secretary says[/B]
[QUOTE]BRUSSELS, June 14 (Reuters) - Russian President Vladimir Putin is in no position to make demands on Ukraine to end the war, U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin said on Friday, as he touted Kyiv's military successes confronting Moscow's full-scale invasion.
Putin said earlier on Friday that Russia would end the war in Ukraine only if Kyiv agreed to drop its NATO ambitions, hand over the entirety of four provinces claimed by Moscow, and carry out a demilitarization.
"He is not in any position to dictate to Ukraine what they must do to bring about peace," Austin told reporters at NATO headquarters in Brussels.
Russia controls nearly a fifth of Ukrainian territory in the third year of the war. Ukraine says peace can only be based on the full withdrawal of Russian forces and the restoration of its territorial integrity.
"He's had some hundreds of thousands of troops wounded and killed in this unjust and unprovoked invasion. He could end this today if he if he chose to do that. And we call upon him to do that and to leave Ukrainian sovereign territory," Austin said.
The timing of Putin's speech was clearly intended to preempt Ukraine's Swiss summit, billed as a "peace conference" despite Russia's exclusion, where Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy seeks a show of international support for Kyiv's terms to end the war.[/QUOTE][URL]https://www.reuters.com/world/putin-is-no-position-make-demands-ukraine-peace-us-defense-secretary-says-2024-06-14[/URL]
In other news, Zelensky held a peace conference but didn't invite the enemy. Seriously, this is beyond comprehension and absolute madness.
[QUOTE=Questner;2923091]I can be very critical on the accuracy, intentions, omissions and the character of the article, still here it is:
[URL]https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/06/15/world/europe/ukraine-russia-ceasefire-deal.html[/URL]
And the English text of the documents:
[URL]https://static01.nyt.com/newsgraphics/documenttools/e548b273c4d42a3a/5e73b566-full.pdf[/URL]
[URL]https://static01.nyt.com/newsgraphics/documenttools/ba6c7377883d7829/f5aff231-full.pdf[/URL]
[URL]https://static01.nyt.com/newsgraphics/documenttools/a456d6dd8e27e830/e279a252-full.pdf[/URL]
Remember, there is another maximum plan as promoted by the former RF President Mr. Medvedev who is a member of the Security Counsel, and who plays a bad cop if you wish, a plan that is shared by many which means total territorial integration of Ukraine into the RF.
As an alternative, the next step may bring forward a creation of a parallel Ukrainian government in Kharkov, which was a capital of Donbass in 1917 and later a capital of Ukraine from 1918 to 1934.[/QUOTE]The longer this goes on, the more territory the Russians will take. My prediction is that Russia will annex at least 2 more, perhaps a maximum of 4 more Oblasts which means everything east of the Dniper (Odessa included). And the longer this goes on, the more of Ukraine will get wrecked by Russia. Time is not on Ukraine's side, neither is the manpower factor (the most important here).
[QUOTE=Riina;2923008]I think the proposition is pretty good. Take it now before he adds Kharkov and Odessa.[/QUOTE]Exactly. That's what common sense tells you.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2923172]Exactly. That's what common sense tells you.[/QUOTE]He will not be able to take Kharkiv or Odessa. I'm interested to hear your explanation on how to agree a deal with a party that has reneged on everything so far.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2923051]
I know this because the Rada bill specifically states "those who committed serious crimes including murder, rape, terrorism, dealing drugs and treason, will be ineligible to trade their jail terms for the defense of their country. ".
Another reason why I know this is that if the Ukrainians were indeed recruiting murderers and rapists, we wouldn't hear the end of it from you and your "colleagues".[/QUOTE]It's so easy to own you.
[URL]https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/06/16/ukraine-convicts-soldier-shortage-war/[/URL]
KYIV — To fill a critical shortage of infantry on the front line, Ukraine has embraced one of Russia's most cynical tactics: releasing convicted — even violent — felons who agree to fight in high-risk assault brigades.
More than 2,750 men have been released from Ukrainian prisons since the parliament adopted a law in May authorizing certain convicts to enlist, including those jailed for dealing drugs, stealing phones and committing armed assaults and murders, among other serious crimes.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2923159] which means everything east of the Dniper (Odessa included). [/QUOTE]Excuse me, you have any idea, where Odessa is located?
This is an indication, that you have no personal connection or knowledge about UA.
In opposition to me, BTW. You can check my old posts.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2923199]It's so easy to own you.[/QUOTE]You conveniently ignore facts, and equivocate things without context. Russia is the aggressor, they are invading, them using prison labour isn't the same as Ukraine using it to save their country from a bloodthirsty dictatorship.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2923199]It's so easy to own you.
[URL]https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/06/16/ukraine-convicts-soldier-shortage-war/[/URL]
KYIV To fill a critical shortage of infantry on the front line, Ukraine has embraced one of Russia's most cynical tactics: releasing convicted even violent felons who agree to fight in high-risk assault brigades.
More than 2,750 men have been released from Ukrainian prisons since the parliament adopted a law in May authorizing certain convicts to enlist, including those jailed for dealing drugs, stealing phones and committing armed assaults and murders, among other serious crimes.[/QUOTE]Thank you. Yes, it appears that only convicts who kill more than one person are banned from enlisting. That's not what I read about this bill before, but I don't mind being corrected (not that I enjoy admitting when I'm wrong, but I like even less to STAY wrong).
For the record, I believe that a civilized army shouldn't enlist convicted murderers. But at least, the Ukrainians have some restrictions on the offences unlike the Russians who simply take everyone.
In any case, if pointing out a discrepancy means "owning" your opponent, then you've been owned here times and again, and it doesn't seem to bother you one bit. Hey, Reiner owned you just now, so let's see how you're going to wiggle out of that predicament.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2923159]The longer this goes on, the more territory the Russians will take. My prediction is that Russia will annex at least 2 more, perhaps a maximum of 4 more Oblasts which means everything east of the Dniper (Odessa included). And the longer this goes on, the more of Ukraine will get wrecked by Russia. Time is not on Ukraine's side, neither is the manpower factor (the most important here).[/QUOTE]We have to bring a couple of chessboards to discuss it. At the moment the current president of the RF does not want to go further, does not have a mandate to do so, and did not stated otherwise publicly. So far he has been very cautious and has chosen to pay risk premium on timeline. This is a risky strategy but it allows to save lives and methodically increase the army capability and numbers at the front and in reserve since this is a conflict between the US and the RF already where the US and NATO countries finance and arm the bankrupt Ukraine, and Russians fight each other on both sides.
Also, there is no point to end the conflict in animosity. There are multiple ways how to de facto control the territory and the legal agreements play a secondary role.
I don't know how the cards are going to fall but I am pessimistic on the outcome. The Ukrainian government won't sign anything and the intervention of the NATO will end in a disaster and a nuclear conflict. The army is back to old proven military codes not only in engineering on a battlefield.
There is a couple of characteristics that show up time to time in Ukraine: 1) Asinine obstinance as opposed to perseverance 2) Always choosing 'loose-loose' over 'win-win' 3) Biting an apple you don't want to eat.
As for specific regions: the game on the chessboard should make sense. For example, from the military POV Odessa region should be one of the last to be taken, however it would mean that Kiev already had been taken and then the fighting might be over. So, in my view, there are only few options on the table, or a friendly Ukrainian state side by side or no state at all. I prefer the last one but I am afraid I would see none of the two options.
[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2923234]Excuse me, you have any idea, where Odessa is located?
This is an indication, that you have no personal connection or knowledge about UA.
In opposition to me, BTW. You can check my old posts.[/QUOTE]I know where Odessa is located. That's why I said everything east of the Dniper AND including Odessa which is west, and historically a Russian city.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2923191]He will not be able to take Kharkiv or Odessa. I'm interested to hear your explanation on how to agree a deal with a party that has reneged on everything so far.[/QUOTE]There won't be a deal. What we will get is an ugly peace, a frozen conflict. There are examples of that all over the world. North Korea and South Korea. They never signed a peace deal, did they? You have a DMZ. Cyprus. The Turks took what they could and have kept it. Aren't you familiar with what happened to Georgia after 2008? There are 2 autonomous republics there.
Ukraine will get carved up and become a dysfunctional rump state. The Russians will keep on taking territory until Ukraine either collapses or they take enough territory, and the shooting just stops. The 2 sides have positions that are irreconcilable so you can't really square that circle.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2923273]You conveniently ignore facts, and equivocate things without context. Russia is the aggressor, they are invading, them using prison labour isn't the same as Ukraine using it to save their country from a bloodthirsty dictatorship.[/QUOTE]I was just pointing out that Ukraine is doing the same thing that Russia is doing and exposing the lies by Xpartan.
[QUOTE=Questner;2923365]We have to bring a couple of chessboards to discuss it. At the moment the current president of the RF does not want to go further, does not have a mandate to do so, and did not stated otherwise publicly. So far he has been very cautious and has chosen to pay risk premium on timeline. This is a risky strategy but it allows to save lives and methodically increase the army capability and numbers at the front and in reserve since this is a conflict between the US and the RF already where the US and NATO countries finance and arm the bankrupt Ukraine, and Russians fight each other on both sides.
Also, there is no point to end the conflict in animosity. There are multiple ways how to de facto control the territory and the legal agreements play a secondary role.
I don't know how the cards are going to fall but I am pessimistic on the outcome. The Ukrainian government won't sign anything and the intervention of the NATO will end in a disaster and a nuclear conflict. The army is back to old proven military codes not only in engineering on a battlefield.
There is a couple of characteristics that show up time to time in Ukraine: 1) Asinine obstinance as opposed to perseverance 2) Always choosing 'loose-loose' over 'win-win' 3) Biting an apple you don't want to eat.
As for specific regions: the game on the chessboard should make sense. For example, from the military POV Odessa region should be one of the last to be taken, however it would mean that Kiev already had been taken and then the fighting might be over. So, in my view, there are only few options on the table, or a friendly Ukrainian state side by side or no state at all. I prefer the last one but I am afraid I would see none of the two options.[/QUOTE]NATO will not intervene. They just want to make Russia bleed using Ukrainians as cannon fodder. This is a battle of attrition. The Russians are slowly destroying AFU and taking territory. They can replace the manpower, Ukraine soon won't be able to. They will keep taking territory until Ukraine either collapses or you reach a point where both sides just stop shooting (an ugly peace like North and South Korea).
The longer this goes on, the more territory Russia will take. I stand by what I said. Russia will most likely take 2 more 4 more Oblasts in addition to the 4 they have annexed (plus Crimea of course). Putin has no interest in western Ukraine where he will face enormous resistance and where there are mostly ethnic Ukrainians.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2923402]everything east of the Dniper AND including Odessa which is west[/QUOTE]Very doubtful. Will need re-taking Cherson, which then is hard to hold because being on the Western side of the Dnepr, taking Mykolaiv and crossing the Bug river, adding about 200 km frontline on the.
Land and even more on the seaside. But, may be the Orcs, stationed already in PMR, might give it a try. But not so many of them in PMR, and supply very difficult.
BTW, "historically Russian" can be used also also for taking Mykolaiv etc.
But this argument is bull. , because then it is high time for Germany to build atomic weapons, and re-take large parts of Poland, the Baltics and Kaliningrad, of course.
[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2923445]Very doubtful. Will need re-taking Cherson, which then is hard to hold because being on the Western side of the Dnepr, taking Mykolaiv and crossing the Bug river, adding about 200 km frontline on the.
Land and even more on the seaside. But, may be the Orcs, stationed already in PMR, might give it a try. But not so many of them in PMR, and supply very difficult.
BTW, "historically Russian" can be used also also for taking Mykolaiv etc.
But this argument is bull. , because then it is high time for Germany to build atomic weapons, and re-take large parts of Poland, the Baltics and Kaliningrad, of course.[/QUOTE]Only time will tell who is right and who is wrong. My predictions are before everyone:
The Russians will annex 4 more Oblasts (in addition to the 4 current annexed ones + Crimea).
That is, unless Ukraine sues for peace and accepts the current terms that Putin offered a few days ago, or there is a collapse and you get some sort of ceasefire. The longer this goes on, the more difficult it will get for Ukraine.
Note that at Istanbul 2022, Russia had not annexed Zaporizhya and Kherson. There was no land bridge from Crimea to mainland Russia. Now there is. Russia will never give that up.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2923159]My prediction is that Russia will annex at least 2 more, perhaps a maximum of 4 more Oblasts which means [b]everything east of the Dniper (Odessa included)[/b].[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2923234]Excuse me, you have any idea, where Odessa is located?
This is an indication, that you have no personal connection or knowledge about UA.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2923310]Hey, Reiner owned you just now, so let's see how you're going to wiggle out of that predicament.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2923402]I know where Odessa is located. That's why I said [b]everything east of the Dniper AND including Odessa which is west[/b].[/QUOTE]Really? That's your save? Dude, you've got to work on your wiggling skills.
I don't know what's more pathetic for a propagandist: this or not knowing where a major enemy city is located.
Oh well, keep hiding your glaring incompetence behind your big words and scary facades. We don't mind, as long as your glamorous army is doing the same thing.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2923310]
For the record, I believe that a civilized army shouldn't enlist convicted murderers. .[/QUOTE]So, we can agree that the RF army an AFU are the same in this regard.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2923452]Only time will tell who is right and who is wrong. My predictions are before everyone:
The Russians will annex 4 more Oblasts (in addition to the 4 current annexed ones + Crimea)...[/QUOTE]I wish there were a way to bet some money in this forum on potential outcomes.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2923466]Really? That's your save? Dude, you've got to work on your wiggling skills.
I don't know what's more pathetic for a propagandist: this or not knowing where a major enemy city is located.
Oh well, keep hiding your glaring incompetence behind your big words and scary facades. We don't mind, as long as your glamorous army is doing the same thing.[/QUOTE]It's not my fault that you're failing at reading comprehension. Grasping at straws. Scraping the bottom of the barrel. I do understand though.
P.S. Ukraine is winning.
Western leaders now saying Russia was provoked. What took so long?
[QUOTE=Riina;2924923]Western leaders now saying Russia was provoked. What took so long?[/QUOTE]Getting desperate, huh?
It didn't take long for western leaders to put the moron in his place.
[URL]https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jun/21/russia-was-provoked-into-ukraine-war-claims-nigel-farage[/URL]
[URL]https://www.economist.com/leaders/2024/06/22/nigel-farages-claim-that-nato-provoked-russia-is-naive-and-dangerous[/URL]
[URL]https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cldd44zv3kpo[/URL]
[QUOTE=Riina;2924923]Western leaders now saying Russia was provoked. What took so long?[/QUOTE]Which ones, be specific?
[QUOTE=Riina;2924923]Western leaders now saying Russia was provoked. What took so long?[/QUOTE]Anyone that has a clue knows that NATO expansion is what caused this war. Plus the coup which removed the democratically elected president of Ukraine in 2014.
NATO expansion into Georgia and Russia were Russian red lines, both of which were crossed. Look at what happened to Georgia in 2008. Look at what is happening to Ukraine now. The collective west doesn't give 2 shits about Ukraine. Ukraine will NEVER EVER join NATO. So, what the fuck was the point of all of this? Ukraine supporters should be asking that question if they had any common sense.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2923589]I wish there were a way to bet some money in this forum on potential outcomes.[/QUOTE]JC, you can just bet green on a roulette wheel and have the same effect. I am glad you think casinos need the money.
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2925181]JC, you can just bet green on a roulette wheel and have the same effect. I am glad you think casinos need the money.[/QUOTE]Just sayin' the effect of having some money in the game mitigates some of the more extreme positions people take anonymously on the internet. I imagine, for example, that Blood Red would behave differently if he had to put his own money on the outcome (rather than getting a stipend to repeat Kremlin propaganda). Sure that the future of ICE vehicles is ordained? Buy Chevron stock. Prognosticating on the internet that Russia will triumph? Buy rubles.
[URL]https://mid.ru/en/foreign_policy/news/1958997/[/URL]
On June 23, the Kiev regime, with support from the United States and its satellites, committed yet another heinous terrorist crime against civilians in Russia by firing missiles at Sevastopol. For their terrorist attack, they specially chose a day – Holy Trinity Sunday – one of the most important holidays celebrated by the Russian Orthodox Church.
Four persons were killed, including a two-year-old boy, who was playing on the municipal beach, and a nine-year-old girl. One hundred and fifty-one people applied for medical assistance; 82 persons – 55 adults and 27 children – were hospitalised, many of them in a grave condition. All patients are receiving skilled medical aid.
According to the Defence Ministry of Russia, the attackers used US ATACMS operational missiles with cluster warheads for greater kill ability. All flight data were entered by US military crews based on US reconnaissance satellite inputs. A Global Hawk US reconnaissance drone was on duty off Crimea.
The Investigative Committee of Russia has promptly started an investigation into this crime. All those implicated in this and other terrorist attacks in the territory of the Russian Federation will incur inevitable punishment.
There is no doubt that the United States is involved in this ominous crime. Washington and its satellites have created and nurtured the neo-Nazi regime in Kiev. They are cherishing and supporting their Ukrainian puppets, using them to wage a war against Russia, and encouraging them to commit acts of international terrorism and kill Russian civilians, including with the use of cluster munitions, one of the most terrible types of inhumane weapons. A response to this crime will inevitably follow.
The Western capitals continue to criminally hush up the Zelensky regime's barbarous actions. There are no denouncements from international organisations either. The Russian Federation is again urging them to give a proper assessment to yet another outrage perpetrated by the Kiev regime and the West.
Russia expresses its sincere gratitude for the condolences conveyed by officials from friendly states and by members of the European and US public. The words of commiseration continue to come in.
We commiserate with Sevastopol, where a day of mourning has been announced today. We express condolences to the families and friends of the victims and wish an early recovery to the wounded.
[URL]https://mid.ru/en/foreign_policy/news/1958806/[/URL]
On June 24, US Ambassador to Russia Lynne Tracy was summoned to the Foreign Ministry, where she was presented with a demarche in connection with a new bloody crime committed by the Kiev regime, patronised and armed by Washington, which launched a well-targeted missile attack on civilians in Sevastopol that led to numerous casualties, including among children.
It was stressed that the United States was conducting a hybrid war against Russia and supplying the Armed Forces of Ukraine with the most advanced weapons, including ATACMS missiles with cluster warheads used against Sevastopol residents, which actually made the US a party to the conflict. Moreover, the targeting and flight data entry is performed by US military crews and therefore the United States shares equal responsibility with the Kiev regime for this outrage.
The ambassador was told that Washington's actions of this sort, including its permission to fire at targets in the Russian hinterland, actions that were aimed at encouraging the pro-Nazi authorities in Ukraine to continue hostilities "until the last Ukrainian," would not be left unpunished. Retaliatory measures are certain to follow.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2925168]Anyone that has a clue knows that NATO expansion is what caused this war. [/QUOTE]Putin's belief that he's Peter the Great reincarnate (reinforced by thousands of tongues competing for a spot in his ass in the last 20 years) caused this stupid, suicidal war.
Good news: the former head of St. Petersburg troll factory Ilya Gorbunov has been detained.
[QUOTE]On the anniversary of the mutiny carried out in Russia by the late mercenary leader Yevgeny Prigozhin, the Federal Security Service (FSB) has detained a top manager of his purported “troll factory.” Ilya Gorbunov, a former top manager of Patriot media, was detained on June 22 in St. Petersburg, according to the local newspaper Fontanka. Gorbunov has reportedly been accused of extorting money from a member of the Public Chamber and former director of the St. Petersburg television channel. Gorbunov was allegedly responsible for covering the march on Moscow by Prigozhin’s Wagner mercenary force on June 23, 2023.[/QUOTE][URL]https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-official-arrested-arms-procurement-fraud/32744402.html[/URL]
Every fascist will get his or her one way or another.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2925364]Putin's belief that he's Peter the Great reincarnate (reinforced by thousands of tongues competing for a spot in his ass in the last 20 years) caused this stupid, suicidal war.[/QUOTE]No, dumbass. Putin tried very hard to avoid a full scale war. That's why there were 2 Minsk accords which Ukraine didn't implement. Angela Merkel is on record saying that Ukraine and the west used that time to arm Ukraine and they had no intention of implementing it. Russia tolerated 2 NATO expansions. When they crossed the Russian red lines with Georgia and Ukraine, Russia acted. Putin warned about this in 2008.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2925424]No, dumbass. Putin tried very hard to avoid a full scale war. That's why there were 2 Minsk accords which Ukraine didn't implement. Angela Merkel is on record saying that Ukraine and the west used that time to arm Ukraine and they had no intention of implementing it. Russia tolerated 2 NATO expansions. When they crossed the Russian red lines with Georgia and Ukraine, Russia acted. Putin warned about this in 2008.[/QUOTE]Moderator, this is paid FSB disinformation.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2925512]Moderator, this is paid FSB disinformation.[/QUOTE]Oh, yes it is!
Just as the sky is blue, the sun is hot, and the Pope is still Catholic.
What's your point John? LOL!
Look at it from this prospective.
Stepmother-Russia keeps wasting its very limited resources paying trolls to run their pie holes on a mongering forum. What's the effectiveness of these expenditures?
I say let them.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2925535]...
What's your point John? LOL!
...[/QUOTE]point is, it is paid political disinformation and a waste of bandwidth -- the poster should be blocked because he is wasting the Earth's precious electrons.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2925512]Moderator, this is paid FSB disinformation.[/QUOTE]You cannot debate or argue my points. Run along now.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2925839]You cannot debate or argue my points. Run along now.[/QUOTE]Can't debate someone that has drunk the FSB cool aid.
The NATO expansion argument has been debunked in this thread multiple times, yet here is again.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2925951]Can't debate someone that has drunk the FSB cool aid.
The NATO expansion argument has been debunked in this thread multiple times, yet here is again.[/QUOTE]How has it been debunked? If Ukraine was neutral, there would be no war right now. And if the west hadn't removed the democratically elected president in 2014 and installed a puppet anti Russian government. Crimea would still be a part of Ukraine. Ukraine wouldn't be wrecked today.
So what did Ukraine achieve by sucking up to the west and NATO?
Ukraine will NEVER join NATO.
[URL]https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html[/URL]
A reminder. The above was written long before the events in Georgia on August 8, 2008 and before the summit.
[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Bucharest_summit[/URL]
At that time there was absolutely no real interest on the part of the people of Ukraine to join the alliance.
For years any success in joining NATO or EU for that matter by Ukraine was described in Ukraine by a phrase that can be translated as 'to shove in the unshoveable'.
Folks who argue for such success can be only described as intellectual hunchbacks, and we got a nice proverb for the kind, 'Only the grave will heal a hunchback'.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2925988]How has it been debunked? If Ukraine was neutral, there would be no war right now. And if the west hadn't removed the democratically elected president in 2014 and installed a puppet anti Russian government. Crimea would still be a part of Ukraine. Ukraine wouldn't be wrecked today.
So what did Ukraine achieve by sucking up to the west and NATO?
Ukraine will NEVER join NATO.[/QUOTE]It's not the neutrality you were seeking when you poisoned Yuschenko and propped up a degenerate ex-felon Yanukovich. You wanted IINO Ukraine -- Independent in the Name Only.
And what did Russia achieve other than having shot itself in the balls?
- Two neutral countries have joined Nato.
- The new Nato-Russia border is doubled with an addition of nearly 1,000 miles.
- The Baltic Sea is now a Nato lake.
- The Black Sea in Crimea is not accessible to Putin's fleet anymore.
- Russia proper is being hit every single day.
- Over a thousand of dead orcs daily.
- 530,000 dead and crippled orcs since the beginning of the war.
- Nearly 50% of Russia's economy is working for the war and state security.
Well, boys, you bit more than you can chew. Now chock on it.
Russia hasn't been THIS fucked since 1942.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2925988]How has it been debunked? If Ukraine was neutral, there would be no war right now. And if the west hadn't removed the democratically elected president in 2014 and installed a puppet anti Russian government. Crimea would still be a part of Ukraine. Ukraine wouldn't be wrecked today.
So what did Ukraine achieve by sucking up to the west and NATO?
Ukraine will NEVER join NATO.[/QUOTE]Read the threads from 2 years back. You're just parroting the Kremlin, none of what you're saying makes any sense.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2926002]
- Over a thousand of dead orcs daily.
- 530,000 dead and crippled orcs since the beginning of the war.
.[/QUOTE]How many Ukrainians have died?
[QUOTE=VinDici;2926044]Read the threads from 2 years back. You're just parroting the Kremlin, none of what you're saying makes any sense.[/QUOTE]You can't debate me.
[QUOTE=Questner;2925994][URL]https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html[/URL]
A reminder. The above was written long before the events in Georgia on August 8, 2008 and before the summit.
[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Bucharest_summit[/URL]
At that time there was absolutely no real interest on the part of the people of Ukraine to join the alliance.
For years any success in joining NATO or EU for that matter by Ukraine was described in Ukraine by a phrase that can be translated as 'to shove in the unshoveable'.
Folks who argue for such success can be only described as intellectual hunchbacks, and we got a nice proverb for the kind, 'Only the grave will heal a hunchback'.[/QUOTE]The pro Ukraine tools on here will ignore that. They will also ignore Putin's famous speech in Munich in 2007 where he spoke about this.
Guys, this is a monger site. Political opinions you can discuss with your mate DTrum. On X but you will never achieve a result. Stop it. Waste of energy.
Talk about fucking, boobs and pussy! There is an oversupply of lonely ladies at the moment in Kiew. No one out on a hunt? . well you better shall know the shortest way to the next shelter and perhaps wear a bulletproof vest. But then, reward is likely to be overwhelming.
No one there to report?
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2926089]The pro Ukraine tools on here will ignore that. They will also ignore Putin's famous speech in Munich in 2007 where he spoke about this.[/QUOTE]The same Putin that lied about his intentions just days before he started the war?
Is that the one we have to believe and take seriously?
If you think he will ever keep his word, I have a bridge for sale.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2926089]The pro Ukraine tools on here will ignore that. They will also ignore Putin's famous speech in Munich in 2007 where he spoke about this.[/QUOTE]They better adjust their 46 inch belt and watch a replay of Alley Cat vs Nosferatu debate with one hand in a bucket of chicken wings. They think Pershing was a German brand of laundry detergent.
Meanwhile on June 28,2024, Putin announced the resumption of production of medium- and shorter-range ground-based missiles in the Russian Federation. As always it means deployment decisions already have been made.
[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermediate-Range_Nuclear_Forces_Treaty[/URL]
[QUOTE=Amadeuss;2926093]
Talk about fucking, boobs and pussy! There is an oversupply of lonely ladies at the moment in Kiew. [/QUOTE]Please, don't spread lies here. Nothing but hags and hardened skanks left in Kiev. The fresh and pretty left the country.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2926085]How many Ukrainians have died?[/QUOTE]They ain't sent to sure death in meat assaults.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2926156]The same Putin that lied about his intentions just days before he started the war?
Is that the one we have to believe and take seriously?
If you think he will ever keep his word, I have a bridge for sale.[/QUOTE]Ukraine will have to negotiate with Vladimir Putin, and it will.
[QUOTE=Questner;2926168]
Meanwhile on June 28,2024, Putin announced the resumption of production of medium- and shorter-range ground-based missiles in the Russian Federation. As always it means deployment decisions already have been made.
[/QUOTE]Whats your point here? Putler already since 2018 has Iskander missiles stationed in Kaliningrad. Rockets, capable of nuclear warheads, to reach Berlin or Warsaw. Did NATO attack Russia because
of this reason? Did Germany try to regain former German territory there?
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2926206]Ukraine will have to negotiate with Vladimir Putin, and it will.[/QUOTE]Gee, I wonder what happened? Looks like some reality is starting to sink in perhaps. Although I doubt it.
"We don't have too much time," he said, pointing to the high casualty rate among soldiers and civilians.
[URL]https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/6/28/ukraines-zelenskyy-charting-comprehensive-plan-to-end-war-with-russia[/URL]
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2926254]Gee, I wonder what happened? Looks like some reality is starting to sink in perhaps. Although I doubt it.[/QUOTE]You can't make deals with a nation of liars.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2926265]You can't make deals with a nation of liars.[/QUOTE]As a guy in US trucking, my spidey sense goes off with Ukrainians. Not so with Russians.
[QUOTE=Riina;2926177]Please, don't spread lies here. Nothing but hags and hardened skanks left in Kiev. The fresh and pretty left the country.[/QUOTE]You are there?
I have proven Infos from Biz Travellers that Nightlive, although reduced, still has ample supply of sex hungry ladies.
Yes, many left. But those are the moms with kids. Not hunting target.
Where is desaster you find opportunities!
[QUOTE=Riina;2926284]As a guy in US trucking, my spidey sense goes off with Ukrainians. Not so with Russians.[/QUOTE]You should move to Russia ASAP and never leave.
Ukraine has to hold presidential elections and free elections to a new Rada following a suspension of the martial law. It has to agree to the RF's terms to start the true negotiations as opposed to the spring of 2022 farce. The agreement should be verifiable, enforceable and should not be humiliating as the Treaty of Versailles. The RF is not interested in freezing the conflict.
At the moment, as the locals say, there are three types of Ukrainians (said using a derogatory word):
Those living in the left bank (lower bank of Dnieper, to the east) who would agree to surrender Donbass.
Those living in Kiev, who would agree to surrender the left bank.
And those living in the Western Ukraine, who would agree to surrender everything east of the river Zbruch (along the Polish. Russian border of 1921).
However, the Western Ukraine is Russian historic land as well up to the WWI.
[QUOTE=Questner;2926387]Ukraine has to hold presidential elections and free elections to a new Rada following a suspension of the martial law. It has to agree to the RF's terms to start the true negotiations as opposed to the spring of 2022 farce. The agreement should be verifiable, enforceable and should not be humiliating as the Treaty of Versailles. The RF is not interested in freezing the conflict.
At the moment, as the locals say, there are three types of Ukrainians (said using a derogatory word):
Those living in the left bank (lower bank of Dnieper, to the east) who would agree to surrender Donbass.
Those living in Kiev, who would agree to surrender the left bank.
And those living in the Western Ukraine, who would agree to surrender everything east of the river Zbruch (along the Polish. Russian border of 1921).
However, the Western Ukraine is Russian historic land as well up to the WWI.[/QUOTE]It's time to take a well-deserved vacation in one of your historic lands already. I hear Vovchansk is beautiful this time of year.
[QUOTE=Questner;2926387]
However, the Western Ukraine is Russian historic land as well up to the WWI.[/QUOTE]You should better say, Western Ukraine historically is Polish and Austrian / German land. Better, to stay with the simple facts.
BTW, high time for NATO and Germany to grab Kaliningrad, a ka Koenigsberg, historically very German, back from Russia.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2926265]You can't make deals with a nation of liars.[/QUOTE]Yeah, let's keep the carnage going. Until the last Ukrainian, eh keyboard warrior?
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2926189]They ain't sent to sure death in meat assaults.[/QUOTE]How many Ukrainians have died?
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2926440]Yeah, let's keep the carnage going. Until the last Ukrainian, eh keyboard warrior?[/QUOTE]Not sure what you mean by keyboard warrior. You are on a mongering site trying your hardest to push Russian propaganda in the Ukraine forums. I think some introspection is needed.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2926440]Yeah, let's keep the carnage going. Until the last Ukrainian, eh keyboard warrior?[/QUOTE]He only cares about the pussy. Dead dick means nothing.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2926481]Not sure what you mean by keyboard warrior. You are on a mongering site trying your hardest to push Russian propaganda in the Ukraine forums. I think some introspection is needed.[/QUOTE]As I have said many times, I do not have a horse in this race. I have my view on this whole war and conflict. I just know very well how this all started, when this all started and most of all WHY it started.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2926442]How many Ukrainians have died?[/QUOTE]I noticed a disturbing trend. You're now limiting your participation in this forum to posting one-sentence questions. Late Prigozhin would've hit you with a hammer for your lack of enthusiasm.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2926678] I just know very well how this all started, when this all started and most of all WHY it started.[/QUOTE]Yep. Putler wanted land, and industry, and minerals. Like Adolf. Although, Putler had to be smarter. In the very beginning, he had to trick the UA to dismantle its atomic weapons, by giving guarantees he never wanted to keep. Concerning the Red Lines, Putler was talking about so often, using as alibi for his imperialistic aggression: Any Red Lines of NATO for Russia, to put nuclear missiles into Kaliningrad? Missiles, capable to reach Berlin or Warsaw or Stockholm in very few minutes?
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2926686]I noticed a disturbing trend. You're now limiting your participation in this forum to posting one-sentence questions. Late Prigozhin would've hit you with a hammer for your lack of enthusiasm.[/QUOTE]Well, you seem to be avoiding answering it so I have to keep asking. Or do you not care how many Ukrainians are dying to keep track?
[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2926694]Yep. Putler wanted land, and industry, and minerals. Like Adolf. Although, Putler had to be smarter. In the very beginning, he had to trick the UA to dismantle its atomic weapons, by giving guarantees he never wanted to keep. Concerning the Red Lines, Putler was talking about so often, using as alibi for his imperialistic aggression: Any Red Lines of NATO for Russia, to put nuclear missiles into Kaliningrad? Missiles, capable to reach Berlin or Warsaw or Stockholm in very few minutes?[/QUOTE]Those atomic weapons did not belong to Ukraine, they belonged to Russia. Russia had the codes. Ukraine just returned them to the rightful owner, you don't even know that.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2926819]Those atomic weapons did not belong to Ukraine, they belonged to Russia. Russia had the codes. Ukraine just returned them to the rightful owner, you don't even know that.[/QUOTE]The atomic weapons belonged to UA, because they were kept on their territory from the times of the USSR. Russia had the activation codes, yes. But that is / was not a mayor technical problem, in case of having good engineers, to remove the warheads from the SS18's, for example, and to remove the fission material for a new bomb. And later on, all the warheads were the bargain for the Budapest Memorandum, which was broken by Putler. Proof, that negotations and any agreements with him are not even worth intensively used toilet paper. Obviously, you are not good at facts.
Seems like Blackrock and others are calling time on Zelensky's scam. Time to pay back his Himalayan loans. He can always go back to his day job as a cross dressing male stripper.
Does it make sense to challenge a cannibal on fact finding with respect to keto diet? No, absolutely not.
As if an omen, all three major traitors of 1991 agreement with an exception of one croaked in 2022. As a witness at zero distance to 1987 agreement I can only repeat what is inconvenient to say officially, that two thieves and traitors contributed to the territorial disintegration of the country: a fingerless alcoholic Yeltsin and a marked mediocre tractor operator Gorbachev. Ukraine was created as an unallied country in 1991 or nine years before the first term of the current Russian president.
Nowadays, Ukraine socially is called country 404 - a non-existing mistake: financially, militarily and morally bankrupt.
Everything that Ukraine pledges today as a guarantee to its debts to foreign nations or corporations will be nationalized and returned to its owner. The people.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2926818]Well, you seem to be avoiding answering it so I have to keep asking. Or do you not care how many Ukrainians are dying to keep track?[/QUOTE]Every Ukrainian life is priceless but there will be infinitely more Ukrainian deaths if they give a snake named Putin a chance to rest, recharge, regroup and relaunch. Like I've said before, they don't have a choice.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2926819]Those atomic weapons did not belong to Ukraine, they belonged to Russia. Russia had the codes. Ukraine just returned them to the rightful owner, you don't even know that.[/QUOTE]They belonged to the Soviet Union, not Russia. Russia was just one of 15 nuke owners, you dummy.
[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2926882]The atomic weapons belonged to UA, because they were kept on their territory from the times of the USSR. Russia had the activation codes, yes. But that is / was not a mayor technical problem, in case of having good engineers, to remove the warheads from the SS18's, for example, and to remove the fission material for a new bomb. And later on, all the warheads were the bargain for the Budapest Memorandum, which was broken by Putler. Proof, that negotations and any agreements with him are not even worth intensively used toilet paper. Obviously, you are not good at facts.[/QUOTE]They belonged to the Soviet Union and were legally the property of its successor state Russia. That's why Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan returned them to Russia. I don't know why that is so difficult to understand.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2926935]Every Ukrainian life is priceless but there will be infinitely more Ukrainian deaths if they give a snake named Putin a chance to rest, recharge, regroup and relaunch. Like I've said before, they don't have a choice.
[/QUOTE]So you cannot answer. LOL.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2927041]They belonged to the Soviet Union and were legally the property of its successor state Russia. That's why Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan returned them to Russia. I don't know why that is so difficult to understand.[/QUOTE]There's no reason to pull that out of your arse, the situation around the UA nukes is very well documented. No reason to make stuff up to get a bonus from the FSB.
"After the breakup of the Soviet Union in 1991, Ukraine inherited a significant portion of the Soviet Union's nuclear arsenal. At the time, Ukraine possessed the third-largest stockpile of nuclear weapons in the world, including intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs) and strategic bombers.
However, these nuclear weapons were not under Ukrainian control in the operational sense. The launch codes and technical control remained with the Russian Federation. The Ukrainian government did not have full operational control over the nuclear arsenal on its territory.
In 1994, Ukraine agreed to relinquish its nuclear weapons and joined the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT) as a non-nuclear-weapon state. This decision was part of the Budapest Memorandum, in which Ukraine agreed to transfer its nuclear warheads to Russia for dismantling in exchange for security assurances from the United States, the United Kingdom, and Russia. By 1996, Ukraine had successfully transferred all its nuclear weapons to Russia. ".
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2927041]They belonged to the Soviet Union and were legally the property of its successor state Russia. That's why Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan returned them to Russia. I don't know why that is so difficult to understand.[/QUOTE]You can not stop to distribute misinformation. Is this your job, payed for by putler? Or did you just get it from rtdotcom?
Excerpt:
The Massandra Accords set the stage for the ultimately successful trilateral talks. As the United States mediated between Russia and Ukraine, the three countries signed the Trilateral Statement on January 14,1994. Ukraine committed to full disarmament, including strategic weapons, in exchange for economic support and security assurances from the United States and Russia. Ukraine agreed to transfer its nuclear warheads to Russia and accepted USA Assistance in dismantling missiles, bombers, and nuclear infrastructure. Ukraine's warheads would be dismantled in Russia, and Ukraine would receive compensation for the commercial value of the highly enriched uranium. Ukraine ratified START on February 3, 1994, repealing its earlier preconditions, but it would not accede to the NPT without further security assurances. .
Again, security assurances also from Russia here. One more proof of Putlers peeing on international agreements.
Ukraine agreed to transfere its nuclear warheads.
In case, you can still learn, and you are allowed to, just get the full story here:
[URL]https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/Ukraine-Nuclear-Weapons[/URL]#text=By%201996%2 C%20 Ukraine%20 had%20 returned, nuclear%20 Nonproliferation%20 Treaty%20 (NPT).
[QUOTE=VinDici;2927052]
However, these nuclear weapons were not under Ukrainian control in the operational sense. The launch codes and technical control remained with the Russian Federation. The Ukrainian government did not have full operational control over the nuclear arsenal on its territory.[/QUOTE]Thank you.
The nuclear weapons were not under Ukrainian control because they didn't belong to Ukraine and were just stationed there. The nuclear codes were with Russia because they belonged to Russia.
Just like America has nukes in Turkey. They don't belong to Turkey, they belong to the you. S, they have the nuclear codes. Similar to the nukes that were stationed in Kazakhstan and Belarus. They belonged to Russia and were returned to Russia by those 2 countries.
Russia has or is going to place nukes in Belarus. They will be Russian nukes that will just be stationed in Belarus. Amazing that is hard to understand for some here.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2927041]They belonged to the Soviet Union and were legally the property of its successor state Russia. That's why Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan returned them to Russia. I don't know why that is so difficult to understand.[/QUOTE]They were not legally "the property of its successor state Russia. " Ukraine returned the nukes to Russia due to the intense US and Nato pressure -- mostly because Nato was and still is willing to sell their firstborn to limit the number of nuclear states. Furthermore, the nukes were returned only under the explicit Russian assurance of Ukraine's territorial integrity.
Gee, what a bargain!
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2927271]Thank you.
The nuclear weapons were not under Ukrainian control because they didn't belong to Ukraine and were just stationed there. The nuclear codes were with Russia because they belonged to Russia.
Just like America has nukes in Turkey. They don't belong to Turkey, they belong to the you. S, they have the nuclear codes. Similar to the nukes that were stationed in Kazakhstan and Belarus. They belonged to Russia and were returned to Russia by those 2 countries.
Russia has or is going to place nukes in Belarus. They will be Russian nukes that will just be stationed in Belarus. Amazing that is hard to understand for some here.[/QUOTE]The US and Turkey are two different countries. Russia and Belarus today are also different countries (on paper at least). In the Soviet times, however, Russia and Ukraine weren't different countries. They were two republics that belonged to one country, the USSR. Again: The Russian Soviet Federal Socialist Republic did NOT controlled the nuclear codes in the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. It was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics that controlled the codes everywhere inside the state.
Then the USSR went Kaput. All former Soviet republics became independent states.
The 1991 treaty between Russia, Ukraine and Belarus in Belovezhskaya Pushcha didn't discuss the ownership of Ukraine's nukes. In 1994, Ukrainian President Kravchuk was vehemently against transferring nuclear weapons to Russia. Interestingly, it was Bill Clinton who threatened and pushed him into submission. Hope he's proud of himself today.
But Clinton never tried to argue that Russia was somehow a legal nukes owner. Hell, Russia itself didn't try to claim it was a legal owner at the time. So again, who am I to tell you not to be an idiot? Go for it.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2926481]Not sure what you mean by keyboard warrior. You are on a mongering site trying your hardest to push Russian propaganda in the Ukraine forums. I think some introspection is needed.[/QUOTE]I fully agree. All those war promoters shall be kicked out from the forum. Most likely Trump aficionados.
Where is the mod to stop that bullshit?
Ukraine agreed to transfer its nuclear warheads to Russia and accepted USA Assistance in dismantling missiles, bombers, and nuclear infrastructure. Ukraine's warheads would be dismantled in Russia, .
UAs warheads explicitly mentioned. Why such a deal, when the warheads were Russian, anyway?
You can not understand, obviously. Why do you just repeat your wrong claim?
From another serious source: A more attainable option is to modify warheads, kept in storage sites and designated for ballistic and cruise missiles, for use as gravity bombs. Potentially, the warheads could be mounted on Tu-160 and Tu-95 MC 16 heavy bombers; the pilots of these bombers took an allegiance to the Ukrainian people as early as the spring of 1992.
Ref. To POST-SOVIET RUSSIA AND UKRAINE:
WHO CAN PUSH THE BUTTON?
Dr. Alexander A. Pikayev is Senior Researcher at the Institute of World Economy and International Relations.
(IMEMO). He is also Research Director of the newly-formed Center for Critical Technologies and Nonproliferation.
In Moscow
By Alexander A. Pikayev.
Published in The Nonproliferation Review / Spring-Summer 1994.
From same source: Since 1992, custodial protection of warheads designated for heavy bombers, as well as those removed from strategic missiles, is performed by troops under Ukrainian control.
In early 1993, Russian experts were even denied access to the storage sites.
Feel free to post some sources for your false information. Russian text welcome.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2927272]They were not legally "the property of its successor state Russia. " Ukraine returned the nukes to Russia due to the intense US and Nato pressure -- mostly because Nato was and still is willing to sell their firstborn to limit the number of nuclear states. Furthermore, the nukes were returned only under the explicit Russian assurance of Ukraine's territorial integrity.
Gee, what a bargain![/QUOTE]If they belonged to Ukraine, why didn't Ukraine have the codes to operate them?
Why did Kazakhstan and Belarus return 'their' nukes to Russia?
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2927390]If they belonged to Ukraine, why didn't Ukraine have the codes to operate them?
[/QUOTE]Because RF did not provide them.
Only available from highest (Russian) command, of course. On doomsday.
Here you find the (possible ?) scenario: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/missileers/firs_nf.html
Not absolutely precise, I have to admit. As there were 2 officers required, to initiate launch simultaneously.
How do I know ? 2 times I was in the cmd-centre in Perwomajsk, after being dismanteled.
... Why did Kazakhstan and Belarus return 'their' nukes to Russia? ...
Although an answer is relatively easy to goggle, I certainly can educate you in this respect:
[URL]https://www.armscontrol.org/node/3289[/URL]
You will notice the broken security assurance for UA, thanks to Putler.
To demonstrate, that he does not honor every international agreement.
[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2927423]Because RF did not provide them.
.[/QUOTE]Yeah, because the owner had the codes and kept them.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2927602]Yeah, because the owner had the codes and kept them.[/QUOTE]We've already established that RF was not the owner of the nukes in Ukraine after the break up of the Soviet Union. We already discussed what would happen if Ukraine kept the Nukes and didn't have the codes.
[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2927423]Because RF did not provide them.
Only available from highest (Russian) command, of course. On doomsday...[/QUOTE]This is not some super advanced, incomprehensible, alien technology. Any well trained, knowlegeable engineer / physicist could, pretty easily, take an existing nuclear bomb with no codes and put new ones on it. The point of all the interlocks, codes and whatever is to prevent some lunatic, or group of lunatics, from setting one off, but they do nothing to prevent competent people (in a comfortable lab) from reprogramming it or removing the electronics and putting on their own.
History of the issue of Ukraine's non-nuclear status:
[URL]https://tass.ru/info/13985001[/URL]
(run Translate to English in Chrome).
This is a message I got today from a western business associate who worked in the FSU for a couple of decades. It's about one of his business partners who was originally from the Donbas. I've omitted places and names so I don't "out" myself or him.
*****s extended family, Aunts and Uncles and cousins live in (Name of city and area in Donbas) under the jack-boot of the Ukrainian Army and last time I heard feed-back about six months ago, they were fearing for their lives daily. Skin-heads patrol the streets and pistol whip any dissenters. They are afraid to speak Russian as they have a mixed Russian and Cossack heritage. *****s aunt and uncles and cousins have been living in their respective basements for a few years now, one cousin died of a heart attack last year (only 30 years old). ***** was devastated, it's all very sad for Ukrainians to be thrust into a major war with one of the most effective yet brutal armies historically and the west pouring weapons in, to 'save Ukraine just increases the misery of the people who can't do much as they don't live in a democracy as we understand it.
[QUOTE=Questner;2927744]History of the issue of Ukraine's non-nuclear status:
[URL]https://tass.ru/info/13985001[/URL]
(run Translate to English in Chrome).[/QUOTE]Here is an equally fascinating essay.
The So-Called Russian Soul.
By Joseph Goebbels.
[URL]https://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/goeb11.htm[/URL]
No need to run anything.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2927745]This is a message I got today from a western business associate who worked in the FSU for a couple of decades. It's about one of his business partners who was originally from the Donbas. I've omitted places and names so I don't "out" myself or him.
*****s extended family, Aunts and Uncles and cousins live in (Name of city and area in Donbas) under the jack-boot of the Ukrainian Army and last time I heard feed-back about six months ago, they were fearing for their lives daily. Skin-heads patrol the streets and pistol whip any dissenters. They are afraid to speak Russian as they have a mixed Russian and Cossack heritage. *****s aunt and uncles and cousins have been living in their respective basements for a few years now, one cousin died of a heart attack last year (only 30 years old). ***** was devastated, it's all very sad for Ukrainians to be thrust into a major war with one of the most effective yet brutal armies historically and the west pouring weapons in, to 'save Ukraine just increases the misery of the people who can't do much as they don't live in a democracy as we understand it.[/QUOTE]Shame on you for throwing a line to Putin's thugs on this forum.
No one was afraid to speak Russian in Ukraine. Not in Donbas, not in Kyiv, not even in Lviv. The so-called language problem is a complete Russian fabrication. There are Russian-speaking fighters in AFU (who don't speak Ukrainian or speak poorly), and they do just fine with their comrades.
Donbas wasn't going anywhere until Russian green little boys poured in. Read Girkin / Strelkov who doesn't mince words about how he and his thugs brought parts of Donbas back under Russian control.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2927680]We've already established that RF was not the owner of the nukes in Ukraine after the break up of the Soviet Union. We already discussed what would happen if Ukraine kept the Nukes and didn't have the codes.[/QUOTE]Russia was the successor of the Soviet Union, that's why the nukes were returned to them. End of discussion, move on.
[QUOTE=Questner;2927744]History of the issue of Ukraine's non-nuclear status:
[URL]https://tass.ru/info/13985001[/URL]
(run Translate to English in Chrome).[/QUOTE]Great summary. Thank you.
Interesting is the excuse of Russia, to break the Budapest Memorandum, containing security guarantees to UA.
Usually, nations make agreements with other nations. Russia is very special in (officially not) keeping them.
Who believes, that Putler will honor new agreements?
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2927757]Russia was the successor of the Soviet Union, that's why the nukes were returned to them. End of discussion, move on.[/QUOTE]This guy obviously does not understand serious arguments, or is too lazy to read, still keeping his simple claims without any base.
Putler should cut his salary.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2927756]Shame on you for throwing a line to Putin's thugs on this forum.
No one was afraid to speak Russian in Ukraine. Not in Donbas, not in Kyiv, not even in Lviv. The so-called language problem is a complete Russian fabrication. There are Russian-speaking fighters in AFU (who don't speak Ukrainian or speak poorly), and they do just fine with their comrades.
Donbas wasn't going anywhere until Russian green little boys poured in. Read Girkin / Strelkov who doesn't mince words about how he and his thugs brought parts of Donbas back under Russian control.[/QUOTE]Shame on me? Hey, I didn't lift that from social media. I lifted it from my email, from a message from an individual who's highly respected in his field. And who's been very honest in his dealings with me. Was his friend and business partner outright lying to him? I doubt it. Was he exaggerating? Maybe.
There are two sides to any story. Your sympathy for neoconservatives and Democratic Politicians causes you to believe their side. (Please note I've backed off from calling you a neoconservative or Democrat.) I just think the two sides should stop fighting and come to a solution like Korea. Some of the posters here have historically believed it was in Ukraine's best interest to avoid pursuing peace until it controls all Russian occupied territory including Crimea. They've been proven dead wrong. A lot of people died. And they're still dying.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2927890]Shame on me? Hey, I didn't lift that from social media. I lifted it from my email, from a message from an individual who's highly respected in his field. And who's been very honest in his dealings with me. Was his friend and business partner outright lying to him? I doubt it. Was he exaggerating? Maybe.
There are two sides to any story. Your sympathy for neoconservatives and Democratic Politicians causes you to believe their side. (Please note I've backed off from calling you a neoconservative or Democrat.) I just think the two sides should stop fighting and come to a solution like Korea. Some of the posters here have historically believed it was in Ukraine's best interest to avoid pursuing peace until it controls all Russian occupied territory including Crimea. They've been proven dead wrong. A lot of people died. And they're still dying.[/QUOTE]Sorry, but "trust me bro" is not going to cut it. You're an anon on a mongering site, not a well respected journo.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2927890]Shame on me? Hey, I didn't lift that from social media. I lifted it from my email, from a message from an individual who's highly respected in his field. And who's been very honest in his dealings with me. Was his friend and business partner outright lying to him? I doubt it. Was he exaggerating? Maybe.
There are two sides to any story. Your sympathy for neoconservatives and Democratic Politicians causes you to believe their side. (Please note I've backed off from calling you a neoconservative or Democrat.) I just think the two sides should stop fighting and come to a solution like Korea. Some of the posters here have historically believed it was in Ukraine's best interest to avoid pursuing peace until it controls all Russian occupied territory including Crimea. They've been proven dead wrong. A lot of people died. And they're still dying.[/QUOTE]Not to any story.
There aren't two sides to a story of a serial killer and his victims. Well, let me rephrase: I'm sure serial killers can tell you all kinds of stories, but I'm not interested in them. The only stories worth listening are the stories of their victims.
Putin is much worse than a serial killer. He's a mass murderer who started a horrific, criminal war without any credible grievances. You can believe anything you want, but this supposed email you've received is pure BS. And yes, I know the history and nuances of this conflict better than you do. Much better.
There is only one side to a story where one country is attempting to destroy the other because it doesn't like their government.
Politics has nothing to do here. If you're playing at bothsidedness in this atrocious war, then your politics is the last of your problems.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2928265]Not to any story.
There aren't two sides to a story of a serial killer and his victims. Well, let me rephrase: I'm sure serial killers can tell you all kinds of stories, but I'm not interested in them. The only stories worth listening are the stories of their victims.
Putin is much worse than a serial killer. He's a mass murderer who started a horrific, criminal war without any credible grievances. You can believe anything you want, but this supposed email you've received is pure BS.
There is only one side to a story where one country is attempting to destroy the other because it doesn't like their government.[/QUOTE]Under the leadership of George W. Bush (Iraq), LBJ (Vietnam), Truman (Hiroshima and Nagasaki), FDR (carpet bombing civilians) and a lot of other presidents, the USA invaded countries, purposely killed civilians, and overthrew regimes to promote what our government thought was in the best interests of the USA. I guess many USA Presidents were mass murderers. Certainly a few "started horrific, criminal wars without any credible grievances. ".
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2928265]Politics has nothing to do here. If you're playing at bothsidedness in this atrocious war, then your politics is the last of your problems.[/QUOTE]Well, some of you gentlemen are playing at wrongheadedness. That's neither here nor there, but unfortunately many in the western political and military establishment play the same game. They've been encouraging Ukraine to fight the war to the last Ukrainian. This war has been stalemated since November of 2022, and, contrary to your and VinDici's posts for the last year or two, victory is not just around the corner. Instead hundreds of thousands have been killed and maimed.
Returning to your previous post.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2927756]Shame on you for throwing a line to Putin's thugs on this forum.
No one was afraid to speak Russian in Ukraine. Not in Donbas, not in Kyiv, not even in Lviv. The so-called language problem is a complete Russian fabrication. There are Russian-speaking fighters in AFU (who don't speak Ukrainian or speak poorly), and they do just fine with their comrades.
Donbas wasn't going anywhere until Russian green little boys poured in. Read Girkin / Strelkov who doesn't mince words about how he and his thugs brought parts of Donbas back under Russian control.[/QUOTE]From the Kyiv Post in 2019.
[I]Poll: Half of people in occupied Donbas want to join Russia
Only 5.1 percent of people living in the Russia-controlled parts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions want Ukraine to regain control over the territories under the old terms, according to the findings of a joint survey conducted by the Ukrainian Institute of the Future and the Dzerkalo Tyzhnia.Ukraine weekly newspaper with the assistance of New Image Marketing Group, which were unveiled on Nov. 9.
A special status for the region as part of Ukraine is desired by 13.4 percent while 16.2 percent insist on independence.
Half (50.9 percent) want a union with Russia and another 13.4 percent said the region should accede to Russia with a special status. For the whole of Donbas, including its Ukraine-controlled areas, 49.6 percent want it to become part of Russia, with another 13.3 percent choosing such a scenario with a special status for Donbas. A fifth (19.2 percent) see Donbas as part of Ukraine.[/I]
[URL]https://www.kyivpost.com/post/7557[/URL]
You have people living side by side in the Donbas, some of whom support Ukraine and some of who support Russia. The two sides are slaughtering each other. It begs belief that Russian supporters in Ukrainian occupied areas have nothing to fear. People on both sides are going to get fucked. That's the way it was in the Thousand Days War in Colombia, border states during the USA Civil War, and Northern Ireland. Neighbors killed each other.
I'm not sure why you're compelled to lecture me on my moral compass. Poor Blood Red's really gotten beat up. You gentlemen should realize we are, as VinDici says, anons on a mongering site, not politicians or Russian operatives. This web site doesn't have the traffic to merit the attention of propagandists or even bots.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2928265]And yes, I know the history and nuances of this conflict better than you do. Much better.[/QUOTE]Sure you do.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2928455]unfortunately many in the western political and military establishment play the same game. They've been encouraging Ukraine to fight the war to the last Ukrainian. This war has been stalemated since November of 2022[/QUOTE]Not true.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2928455]From the Kyiv Post in 2019[/QUOTE]How is a poll conducted before the start of the war and forced conscription into the meat grinder of the Ruzzian army even relevant?
Ukrainians want Russia gone from their land, if there are 5th columnists, they are welcome to leave and live in Russia at any time.
[URL]https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cl4y1pjk2dzo[/URL]
If they can't kidnap Ukrainian children, they just kill them outright instead.
This is what the Z crew is cheering on.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2928455]Under the leadership of George W. Bush (Iraq), LBJ (Vietnam), Truman (Hiroshima and Nagasaki), FDR (carpet bombing civilians) and a lot of other presidents, the USA invaded countries, purposely killed civilians, and overthrew regimes to promote what our government thought was in the best interests of the USA. I guess many USA Presidents were mass murderers. Certainly a few "started horrific, criminal wars [b]without any credible grievances. "[/b][/QUOTE]Oh yeah? Which one.
The Iraq War was definitely a mistake, but it wasn't criminal like Putin's war.
The Vietnam War had disastrous consequences, but it wasn't criminal (although some US actions during the war could be construed as illegal). Still one way or another, the US never invaded North Vietnam. A far cry from Putin's war.
Nuclear bombardments of Japan, as well as the destruction of Dresden (which you're probably alluding to) took place during the wars that had been waged AGAINST the US by Japan and Germany respectively. It was the US that had been attacked by foreign powers! You're seriously comparing these completely justifiable actions to Putin's war?
If this list is the best you can do, then we didn't start any of the wars you mentioned except Iraq. And that one was NOT criminal.
I don't know what you're trying to prove. At first I thought you're just an isolationist who doesn't want his country and his money to get involved in another European mess. But seeing how desperately you're trying to find a justification for the unjustifiable, I honestly don't know what to think.
Are you a Russophile grasping at straws? Would explain it.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2928455]Well, some of you gentlemen are playing at wrongheadedness. That's neither here nor there, but unfortunately many in the western political and military establishment play the same game. They've been encouraging Ukraine to fight the war to the last Ukrainian. This war has been stalemated since November of 2022, and, contrary to your and VinDici's posts for the last year or two, victory is not just around the corner. Instead hundreds of thousands have been killed and maimed.[/QUOTE]Do you even realize that you're parroting Putin's propaganda? That's their post-Orwelian "newspeak". "War to the last Ukrainian". That's how all these "propacondoms" talk, from low-life forms on this forum to disinformation moguls like Solovyev and Skabeyeva.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2928455]From the Kyiv Post in 2019.
[I]Poll: Half of people in occupied Donbas want to join Russia
Only 5.1 percent of people living in the Russia-controlled parts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions want Ukraine to regain control over the territories under the old terms, according to the findings of a joint survey conducted by the Ukrainian Institute of the Future and the Dzerkalo Tyzhnia.Ukraine weekly newspaper with the assistance of New Image Marketing Group, which were unveiled on Nov. 9.
A special status for the region as part of Ukraine is desired by 13.4 percent while 16.2 percent insist on independence.
Half (50.9 percent) want a union with Russia and another 13.4 percent said the region should accede to Russia with a special status. For the whole of Donbas, including its Ukraine-controlled areas, 49.6 percent want it to become part of Russia, with another 13.3 percent choosing such a scenario with a special status for Donbas. A fifth (19.2 percent) see Donbas as part of Ukraine.[/I]
[URL]https://www.kyivpost.com/post/7557[/URL][/QUOTE]So what? Borders don't mean shit anymore?
Does any community in the world have the right to secede because that's how they feel? Are you even listening to yourself?
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2928455]You have people living side by side in the Donbas, some of whom support Ukraine and some of who support Russia. The two sides are slaughtering each other. [/QUOTE]No one was slaughtering anyone until Russian "speznaz" led by FSB operatives arrived in Donbass in 2014.
[B]Russia's Igor Strelkov: I Am Responsible for War in Eastern Ukraine[/B]
[URL]https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2014/11/21/russias-igor-strelkov-i-am-responsible-for-war-in-eastern-ukraine-a41598[/URL]
Of course, he's full of shit too because nothing gets done in Russia without an order from one man, but this is a good read. Seeing how you get your facts from emails, you might find it useful.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2928455]It begs belief that Russian supporters in Ukrainian occupied areas have nothing to fear. [/QUOTE]I'm sure each of them had something to fear, but it wasn't the language. Look, there are villages and whole cities in Eastern and Central Ukraine where thousands of people don't even speak Ukrainian, period! Which is why I know that your colleague's email is bullshit. On the other hand, all Ukrainians including ethnic Ukrainians speak Russian.
And now that the Russians are there, they detain and torture people simply for speaking Ukrainian. We don't know what happened to the girl who refused to speak to the Z-bloggers in Russian, but I'm sure we will one day. Use the auto-translate function.
[URL]https://youtu.be/o-KtrZ5TAN8[/URL]
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2928455]
I'm not sure why you're compelled to lecture me on my moral compass. Poor Blood Red's really gotten beat up. You gentlemen should realize we are, as VinDici says, anons on a mongering site, not politicians or Russian operatives. This web site doesn't have the traffic to merit the attention of propagandists or even bots.[/QUOTE]Not on your moral compass but your gullibility. You're helping Russian trolls by quoting obvious lies from your business partner. Whether or not your partner is lying or being lied to is irrelevant, but you must know better, IMHO.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2928613][URL]https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cl4y1pjk2dzo[/URL]
If they can't kidnap Ukrainian children, they just kill them outright instead.
This is what the Z crew is cheering on.[/QUOTE]Oxfam estimates about 10,600 Ukrainian civilians died during the first 2 years of the war.
[URL]https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/ukraine-42-civilian-causalities-every-day-two-years-war#text=As%20 of%2022%20 February%202024,the%20 conflict%2 C%20 including%20587%20 children.[/URL]
In the smaller Gaza war, estimates of Palestinian deaths, mostly civilians, range from 35,000 to 138,000, and presumably Israel isn't targeting civilians.
[URL]https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/7/8/gaza-toll-could-exceed-186000-lancet-study-says[/URL]
I don't believe Russia is intentionally targeting children. If it were waging a war on civilians, hundreds of thousands would have died.
That's not to say that there aren't many civilian casualties, or that this war shouldn't stop now. It should.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2928606]Not true.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2928744]Not on your moral compass but your gullibility. [/QUOTE]I'd again encourage you to take the Tiny challenge, posed seven months ago. Open two browser windows with the link below. Leave one map at the present date, and take the other back to late November of 2022. The lines of control have changed imperceptibly. This is shaping up like World War I, endless warfare. Pursuing peace would make a lot of sense.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2876964]This is an interactive map of areas held by Russia and the Ukraine:
[URL]https://www.nzz.ch/english/ukraine-war-interactive-map-of-the-current-front-line-ld.1688087[/URL]
Open the web page in two browser windows, using the link below. Go the the first map. In one window, leave one at the current date. In the second window, take the date back to 17 November, 2022.
You'll see the two sides have been stalemated for over a year. Any change in the area occupied by Russia is imperceptible.
And how many combatants and civilians have been killed or injured during that period? Hundreds of thousands?
This will go on indefinitely, as long as the two sides have the will, the arms and the young men to continue. The West needs to put pressure on both countries to end the war. Ukraine should give up the idea it can return to pre-2014 borders. It won't happen, and in any event based on polling data the majority in the occupied areas (Crimea and Russian occupied Donbas) preferred to be affiliated with Russia instead of Ukraine before the recent hostilities broke out. Russia should accept the territorial integrity and independence of the rest of the Ukraine, and stop meddling in Ukrainian politics.
I'm not saying the West should pull the plug on aid to Ukraine. It should however push Ukraine to the negotiating table. Russia has been willing to talk for a while, although admittedly who knows if the Kremlin is sincere.
Something like what exists in Korea, a permanent cease fire along the current lines of control, would be much, much preferable to the current situation.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2928744]Oh yeah? Which one.
The Iraq War was definitely a mistake, but it wasn't criminal like Putin's war..[/QUOTE]You are truly a dumb fuck. The Iraq war, which was based on a complete lie (Iraqi WMDs that never existed) resulted in almost a million people dying and the destruction of Iraq, and made the whole middle east even more unstable and gave rise to terrorism all over Iraq. But that isn't criminal in your eyes?
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2928873]
I don't believe Russia is intentionally targeting children. If it were waging a war on civilians, hundreds of thousands would have died..[/QUOTE]Exactly. These NATO morons believe whatever the pathetic western MSM tells them. What is the military value in killing children or attacking a children's hospital? None. But these people don't get it and believe the lies put forward by the pathetic media they jerk off to daily.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2928954] What is the military value in killing children or attacking a children's hospital? [/QUOTE]To break the moral of the population. Like Putlers tactics to kidnap Ukrainian children.
[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2928959]To break the moral of the population. Like Putlers tactics to kidnap Ukrainian children.[/QUOTE]Are you really this stupid? If Putin wanted to do that, he can flatten all of Kiev and the rest of Ukraine in a day to break their morale as you claim is his objective. You make no sense.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2928613][URL]https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cl4y1pjk2dzo[/URL]
If they can't kidnap Ukrainian children, they just kill them outright instead.
This is what the Z crew is cheering on.[/QUOTE]First of all, before I get into the forensics, I have to clearly point out as someone with a military background, from a military perspective, there is no value in Russia attacking a children's hospital.
Now I have seen the video, so let's start with the facts: Russia fired 38 missiles and Ukraine 'claims' they shot down 30 of them.
Now with regards to the video, you can see 5 Russian Iskender missiles coming in. The profile of the Iskender is that it has a certain wing configuration. Those 5 Iskender missiles targeted military infrastructure.
Then there's a video of the missile that hit the hospital. It does not fit the Iskender profile at all. In fact, it fits the profile of a NASAM. A NATO supplied surface to air missile that is designed to be an air defense missile. And it missed the Iskender, and when it came down, it hit the children's hospital.
If it had been an Iskender that hit the hospital as the pathetic western MSM is claiming, there would be nothing of the hospital left.
So there you go, more lies from the west and NATO exposed. This is a horrific tragedy and all the more reason to reach a negotiated settlement to end this needless war.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2928963]If it had been an Iskender that hit the hospital as the pathetic western MSM is claiming, there would be nothing of the hospital left.
So there you go, more lies from the west and NATO exposed. This is a horrific tragedy and all the more reason to reach a negotiated settlement to end this needless war.[/QUOTE]Not true, analysis has already concluded that it was a russian missile.
The reach you desperately go to justify this kind of evil attack, it just exposes the morality of the Z team.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2928967]Not true, analysis has already concluded that it was a russian missile.
The reach you desperately go to justify this kind of evil attack, it just exposes the morality of the Z team.[/QUOTE]I already posted the analysis. It was not an Iskender. The 5 Iskender's before that hit their target as the videos prove. The hospital was hit by a NATO missile. Another case of Ukrainian AD not working as intended which is tragic.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2929000]I already posted the analysis. It was not an Iskender. The 5 Iskender's before that hit their target as the videos prove. The hospital was hit by a NATO missile. Another case of Ukrainian AD not working as intended which is tragic.[/QUOTE]Disinformation is an easy source of money for this poster. It's amazing really how effective Russian propaganda has been on geopolitics and how ubiquitous it is, appearing even on a forum like this, which is dedicated to sex tourism. I suggest that the moderator should block this poster as a fully controlled agent of Russian disinformation.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2929051]Disinformation is an easy source of money for this poster. It's amazing really how effective Russian propaganda has been on geopolitics and how ubiquitous it is, appearing even on a forum like this, which is dedicated to sex tourism. I suggest that the moderator should block this poster as a fully controlled agent of Russian disinformation.[/QUOTE]You are incapable of debating me. Run along now.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2929077]You are incapable of debating me. Run along now.[/QUOTE]Blood Red, these guys are idiots. I am not sure what they are going to do when Ukraine surrenders. They are in complete denial and delusional. Hell half of the still believe the Russian Hoax.
Hopefully Ukraine will surrender soon, but I have my doubts as long as the money keeps coming to Pres. Z. , he will keep going until nothing is left.
Russia continues to get stronger and build Allie's, while the west and it Allies getting weaker.
None of this makes any sense, but nothing about Ukraine ever made sense. A totally corrupt place, with no end in site. This time Russia called there bluff, if Ukraine is not careful there will be nothing left. Over 1/2 million dead, probably 750,000 disabled for what.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2928954]Exactly. These NATO morons believe whatever the pathetic western MSM tells them. [/QUOTE]"These NATO morons. " How nice to find yet another confirmation that you have nothing to do with Putin's Russia, LOL.
[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2928959]To break the moral of the population. Like Putlers tactics to kidnap Ukrainian children.[/QUOTE]Precisely!
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2928962]Are you really this stupid? If Putin wanted to do that, he can flatten all of Kiev and the rest of Ukraine in a day to break their morale as you claim is his objective. You make no sense.[/QUOTE]Oh, that wishful Kyiv-in-3-days thinking again. No, my shrimpy friend, Putin can't "flatten all of Kiev and the rest of Ukraine in a day. " If he could've he would've a long time ago. And then he would've done it again and again and again. He doesn't want Ukraine for Russians, he doesn't want Ukraine, period! Hence the genocide.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2929000]I already posted the analysis. It was not an Iskender.[/QUOTE]Who says anything about an Iskander? The hospital was hit with a KH-101 missile. That has already been proved by real military experts -- not some Putin stooges.
[B]Russian Missile Identified in Kyiv Childrens Hospital Attack[/B]
[URL]https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2024/07/09/russian-missile-identified-in-kyiv-childrens-hospital-attack[/URL]
[B]Type of Russian missile that struck Kyiv childrens hospital uses western components[/B]
[URL]https://www.ft.com/content/ef463ac9-4804-4ad7-b9a2-c113590f2f96[/URL]
[B]Hospitals: Where Russia Kills Children [/B]
[URL]https://cepa.org/article/hospitals-where-russia-kills-children[/URL]
Although I must say, I honestly don't know why I bother. You're obviously getting paid simply for decimation of lies, not making them sound plausible, so why would you care?
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2928954]The hospital was hit by a NATO missile. [/QUOTE]Oh, aren't you adorable!
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2928954]You are truly a dumb fuck. The Iraq war, which was based on a complete lie (Iraqi WMDs that never existed) resulted in almost a million people dying and the destruction of Iraq, and made the whole middle east even more unstable and gave rise to terrorism all over Iraq. But that isn't criminal in your eyes? [/QUOTE]Easy big fella. Just because you get paid for this exchange while I don't doesn't make me dumb. Or does it? Hmm, well OK, moving on.
No, the Iraq war wasn't criminal. It was conducted in wrong ways, yes, but Saddam brought it on himself by refusing to comply with one UN disarmament resolution after another.
Did Bush's administration fuck up that war? Absolutely!
Did it have the legal right to go to war faced with the real possibility that Saddam had been stockpiling and developing WMD? Absolutely!
Was it the only reason Bush started that war? Absolutely not!
But that has nothing to do with legalities.
Before you start yapping again, may I remind you that even your current employer claimed at the time that Saddam had been stockpiling WMD? And so did France, GB, Germany, Egypt, and Israel, among others.
So no. The Iraq war wasn't criminal. Your war on Ukraine, on the other hand, totally is.
[B]Why the War Wasnt Illegal[/B]
[URL]https://www.brookings.edu/articles/why-the-war-wasnt-illegal[/URL]
[QUOTE]United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan was wrong in recently terming the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq illegal.
The war admittedly occurred on legally ambiguous grounds. It is also fair to acknowledge, even among those of us who accepted the logic of risking war to ensure Iraqs verifiable disarmament, that its basic desirability and benefits can be debated. Indeed, while not my view, it can reasonably be argued the war was a strategic mistake, as it may foster more anti-U.S. terrorism and risk leaving Iraq in chaos.
But it was not illegal. U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441, passed by unanimous vote in November 2002, made it clear the then status quo in Iraq was what was illegal. Saddam had already violated some 17 previous resolutions demanding his verifiable disarmament. He was put on notice by Resolution 1441 that continuing this was emphatically unacceptable.
And while inspectors did make progress in Iraq in the ensuing weeks of late 2002 and early 2003, they hardly resolved all questions. Iraqs compliance then remained imperfect at best, as chief U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix has noted.
Even someone who would have preferred to see the inspections continueand again, there was a case to be made for that approachshould not term the war illegal.[/QUOTE]
In the longstanding Russian tradition that tacitly celebrates their crimes while denying them publicly, the Russian UN ambassador Vassily Nebenzia published the menu of the reception at a UN Security Council.
[B]Ukraine has criticised Russia for serving chicken Kiev at a UN Security Council dinner.[/B]
[QUOTE]Sergiy Kyslytsya, the Ukrainian ambassador to the UN, shared an image of the menu which highlighted chicken Kiev served with potato paille.
The moral decay of Russian diplomacy is glaring, he said.
He criticised diplomats for attending the dinner, which he described as being funded with blood money.
The Ukrainian capital was known as Kiev under Soviet rule but Ukrainians call it Kyiv.[/QUOTE][URL]https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/07/10/russia-ukraine-zelensky-putin-war-latest-news51[/URL]
If you see a "buffalo" sign on an elephant's cage, do not trust your eyes, as once written by Kozma Prutkov.
The following facility was hit this Monday: [URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luch_Design_Bureau[/URL] by X-101 (Kh-101).
The hospital nearby was hit by a modified AIM-120. Video of a hit and fragments were posted by the Ukrainian side.
X-101 has wings, a different length to width ratio, leaves usually a distinctive air trail behind, and with a payload of 400 to 800 kg would have obliterated the building.
The Ukrainian side puts its air defense systems, like NASAMS within the city to avoid them being targeted and for technical reasons of Russian missiles trajectories.
This is not the first case, and it is tragic. Civilians die daily on each side, which is actually the one. I don't distinguish between them.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2929134]In the longstanding Russian tradition that tacitly celebrates their crimes while denying them publicly, the Russian UN ambassador Vassily Nebenzia published the menu of the reception at a UN Security Council.
[B]Ukraine has criticised Russia for serving chicken Kiev at a UN Security Council dinner.[/B]
[URL]https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/07/10/russia-ukraine-zelensky-putin-war-latest-news51[/URL][/QUOTE]Xman, just a simple question have you ever been to Ukraine or Russia? I asked before, but you never bothered to answer, but you know everything.
You are one super liberal idiot. This war is not helping anyone including Russia. The war is keeping countries economies down, but you do not care about any of this, just keep the war going and Russia will go home. This will never happen. You guys are destroying Ukraine, with the hopes that Russia will collapse. The opposite is happening, Russia is getting stronger.
If you liberals were serious about defeating Russia, you might want to start producing oil and drive the prices down, but that is too easy. Just keep sending more outdated equipment to Ukraine. There is no training and soon there will be nobody left to operate them. In your fantasy world these problems do not exist, but in the real world they do.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2929051]Disinformation is an easy source of money for this poster. It's amazing really how effective Russian propaganda has been on geopolitics and how ubiquitous it is, appearing even on a forum like this, which is dedicated to sex tourism. I suggest that the moderator should block this poster as a fully controlled agent of Russian disinformation.[/QUOTE]Blood Red is a strong contributor to the UAE / Dubai threads. There's no way he's a paid propagandist. Could he be SVR, bouncing around the Gulf States doing the work of the Fatherland? Well, I guess so. If so, far from wanting to ban him, that would make me super interested in what he has to say. Who knows, maybe Xpartan is CIA and VinDici is MI6. Wouldn't that be a gas! Our own little virtual Casablanca here!
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2929134]In the longstanding Russian tradition that tacitly celebrates their crimes while denying them publicly, the Russian UN ambassador Vassily Nebenzia published the menu of the reception at a UN Security Council.[/QUOTE]Just came here to say you are an idiot if you think people get paid by the Russians to troll on this forum. The soon you realise that, the better.
What benefit Russia would gain targeting a children hospital? None. In 2 years Russia has been very careful not to involve or kill civilians. On the contrary Ukraine targeted Russian civilians in the Donbass for year. Not to mention the attack on the Crimea beach. Russian missile strikes have been absolutely precise, and on military targets or infrastructures. Only an idiot could think that Russia deliberately decided to destroy a children hospital. You are out of your mind.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2929123]
Who says anything about an Iskander? The hospital was hit with a KH-101 missile. That has already been proved by real military experts -- not some Putin stooges.
[/QUOTE]Iskendar or KH-101 - The missile in the video also lacks the distinctive wings of the Russian Kh-101. It looks like a NATO supplied NASAM. I suggest you consult some pics before making yourself look foolish again.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2929123]
No, the Iraq war wasn't criminal. It was conducted in wrong ways, yes, but Saddam brought it on himself by refusing to comply with one UN disarmament resolution after another.
Did Bush's administration fuck up that war? Absolutely!
Did it have the legal right to go to war faced with the real possibility that Saddam had been stockpiling and developing WMD? Absolutely![/QUOTE]NO WMD were found in Iraq, which was the justification for the invasion. It was an illegal, criminal invasion that resulted in millions of innocent people dying. You don't know shit about shit, you don't know dick.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2929181]Blood Red is a strong contributor to the UAE / Dubai threads. There's no way he's a paid propagandist. Could he be SVR, bouncing around the Gulf States doing the work of the Fatherland? Well, I guess so. If so, far from wanting to ban him, that would make me super interested in what he has to say. Who knows, maybe Xpartan is CIA and VinDici is MI6. Wouldn't that be a gas! Our own little virtual Casablanca here![/QUOTE]LOL. I'm not Russian. I don't have a horse in this race. I have nothing but the utmost respect for the brave Ukrainian people stuck in the needless war that should have never happened. I have met some very good, kind, decent Ukrainian people. My GP in Australia was a Ukrainian, an amazing man.
I am just telling it like it is, because I know the history and the origin of this conflict or war, whatever you want to call it. The collective west (USA, UK, NATO, etc) used Ukraine as cannon fodder just to make Russia bleed, weaker. Fuck these people.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2929098]Blood Red, these guys are idiots. I am not sure what they are going to do when Ukraine surrenders. They are in complete denial and delusional. Hell half of the still believe the Russian Hoax.
Hopefully Ukraine will surrender soon, but I have my doubts as long as the money keeps coming to Pres. Z. , he will keep going until nothing is left.
Russia continues to get stronger and build Allie's, while the west and it Allies getting weaker.
None of this makes any sense, but nothing about Ukraine ever made sense. A totally corrupt place, with no end in site. This time Russia called there bluff, if Ukraine is not careful there will be nothing left. Over 1/2 million dead, probably 750,000 disabled for what.[/QUOTE]These people are completely delusional. Reality will sink in though. Then what will be their excuse? I think I have an idea.
Notice the crap Biden is spewing these days? He is now saying that 'victory for Ukraine' will be Ukraine continuing to exist as an independent, free country. No mention of borders or territory, notice that. That's the narrative these bastards will take now, after destroying Ukraine. Fuck them.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2928962]Are you really this stupid? If Putin wanted to do that, he can flatten all of Kiev and the rest of Ukraine in a day to break their morale as you claim is his objective. You make no sense.[/QUOTE]He tried, but failed miserably. Because he expected, the Ukrainians to greet the red invaders with flowers. In this respect Putler is worse than Adolf.
You are missing some good education, obviously.
[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2929204]He tried, but failed miserably. Because he expected, the Ukrainians to greet the red invaders with flowers. In this respect Putler is worse than Adolf.
You are missing some good education, obviously.[/QUOTE]Looks like you are failing at reading comprehension. I said if Putin wanted to FLATTEN Kiev (NOT capture, the two are different), he could do it within a day or two. He doesn't. Instead, he has been very patient and hitting military targets only.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2929000]I already posted the analysis. It was not an Iskender. The 5 Iskender's before that hit their target as the videos prove. The hospital was hit by a NATO missile. Another case of Ukrainian AD not working as intended which is tragic.[/QUOTE]Just going with out and out lies now.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2929212]Just going with out and out lies now.[/QUOTE]Facts based on what I saw in the videos. Prove me wrong.
[QUOTE=Incrociatore;2929182]Just came here to say you are an idiot if you think people get paid by the Russians to troll on this forum. The soon you realise that, the better.
What benefit Russia would gain targeting a children hospital? None. In 2 years Russia has been very careful not to involve or kill civilians. On the contrary Ukraine targeted Russian civilians in the Donbass for year. Not to mention the attack on the Crimea beach. Russian missile strikes have been absolutely precise, and on military targets or infrastructures. Only an idiot could think that Russia deliberately decided to destroy a children hospital. You are out of your mind.[/QUOTE]Thank you. Any person with any common sense would know that Russia gains absolutely nothing by attacking a children's hospital. But these morons swallow all the lies from the pathetic western MSM.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2929262]Thank you. Any person with any common sense would know that Russia gains absolutely nothing by attacking a children's hospital.[/QUOTE]I agree. The children in the hospital are a great source for Russia's effort to reseed its population.
[QUOTE=Incrociatore;2929182]Just came here to say you are an idiot if you think people get paid by the Russians to troll on this forum. The soon you realise that, the better.
What benefit Russia would gain targeting a children hospital? None. In 2 years Russia has been very careful not to involve or kill civilians. On the contrary Ukraine targeted Russian civilians in the Donbass for year. Not to mention the attack on the Crimea beach. Russian missile strikes have been absolutely precise, and on military targets or infrastructures. Only an idiot could think that Russia deliberately decided to destroy a children hospital. You are out of your mind.[/QUOTE]Complete lies, the lot of this.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2929258]Facts based on what I saw in the videos. Prove me wrong.[/QUOTE]Based on the facts that I saw in videos, you are wrong. Proved.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2929207]Looks like you are failing at reading comprehension. I said if Putin wanted to FLATTEN Kiev (NOT capture, the two are different), he could do it within a day or two. He doesn't. Instead, he has been very patient and hitting military targets only.[/QUOTE]Your adversaries here have little or no education and no understanding of advanced warfare. Threads like this are used as a dumping gorund to contain them. No form of advanced discussion is possible because these bots wil just crap in the middle of it. They are the type of folk one avoids.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2929181]Blood Red is a strong contributor to the UAE / Dubai threads. There's no way he's a paid propagandist. [/QUOTE]Take a good look at all the reinforcements that have arrived here literally overnight, old and new, including the trolls you've never seen here before. Still believe BR just happens to be a selfless, passionate madman who just must defend Russia and Putin against all odds on a mongering forum?
I haven't seen a single serious military expert who would subscribe to Russian lies about Ukraine hitting its own hospital in Kyiv. It's not like Russia doesn't have any number of "experts" in their employ, but this is so implausible that no one wants to back it and lose the remnants of their credibility.
Proof #1. Yes, contrary to the nonsense Questner and RB are spewing, the missile [B]does have the wings[/B]. See the photo.
[URL]https://twitter.com/FRHoffmann1/status/1810686983506735555/photo/1[/URL]
Proof #2. Turbofan motors only belong to cruise missiles like Kh-101, not NASAMS, which are rocket-powered. See the photo.
[URL]https://twitter.com/Justin_Br0nk/status/1810756595329974588/photo/1[/URL]
Proof #3. Bellingcat analysis has conducted a detailed investigation of the attack and proves that it couldn't have been anything but Kh-110 with a plethora of datapoints. See multiple photos.
[URL]https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2024/07/09/russian-missile-identified-in-kyiv-childrens-hospital-attack[/URL]
I like what this guy says: "Russia's goal not to convince someone in something, their goal is to make so many versions, people will not believe ANYTHING. ".
[URL]https://twitter.com/adnashmyash/status/1810787212440785011[/URL]
Those of you who want to position themselves as Putin's crooks or useful idiots -- who am I to stop you? Keep crying how it doesn't make sense to Putin to kill children, as if he hasn't already killed thousands of them.
Ukraine man no longer approaches stranger Ukrainian man in America. Must be introduced by common friend now like mafia. He doesn't want to hear your thoughts or share his. He wants to live in peace with his family and forget horror story in his country.
Osbourne Cox: And you're my wife's lover?
Ted Treffon: shaking his head No.
Osbourne Cox: Then what are you doing here?
Pause.
Osbourne Cox: I know you. You're the guy from the gym.
Ted Treffon: I'm not here representing HardBodies.
Osbourne Cox: Oh, yes. I know very well what you represent.
Pause.
Osbourne Cox: You represent the idiocy of today.
Ted Treffon: No, I don't represent that either.
Osbourne Cox: Yeah. You're the guy at the gym when I asked about that moronic woman.
Ted Treffon: She's not a moron.
Osbourne Cox: You're in league with that moronic woman. You are part of a league of morons.
Ted Treffon: No. No.
Osbourne Cox: Oh, yes. You see, you're one of the morons I've been fighting my whole life. My whole fucking life. But guess what. Today, I win.
Gun shot.
Russia does not deliberately target civilians in large cities. Hundreds of cases against Ukrainian officers are in prosecution, and other are targeted through reconnaissance or other efforts as information can be bought or supplied. On the other hand ombudsmen on both sides work with Qatar's assistance on separated families. Russian even has a two percent income tax surcharge on higher incomes to pay for rare orphan diseases for children and has very tough laws related to minors and follows international obligations. The suggestion that Russia hit the kids hospital on purpose is preposterous, evil and yes, moronic.
[QUOTE=Jarango;2929348]Your adversaries here have little or no education and no understanding of advanced warfare. Threads like this are used as a dumping gorund to contain them. No form of advanced discussion is possible because these bots wil just crap in the middle of it. They are the type of folk one avoids.[/QUOTE]They have a very low IQ as well.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2929207]I said if Putin wanted to FLATTEN Kiev (NOT capture, the two are different), he could do it within a day or two. [/QUOTE]Yes, sorry, I did not catch that correctly. Did not assume, your understanding of ". Breaking the morale of the population. " includes to FLATTEN Kiev. Typical Nazi philosophy.
[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2929480]Yes, sorry, I did not catch that correctly. Did not assume, your understanding of ". Breaking the morale of the population. " includes to FLATTEN Kiev. Typical Nazi philosophy.[/QUOTE]I was just applying your logic. You seem to think that Russia would bomb a children's hospital to break the morale of the Ukrainian people. I don't think that is the case as Russia is not targeting civilians. I just said that going by your skewed logic, if that were the case, then Russia could just carpet bomb Kiev and reduce a big chunk of it to rubble to break their morale. But Russia has no interest in doing that, despite Ukraine hitting a beach in Crimea with families and killing children. But that's okay in your book I guess.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2929505]I don't think that is the case as Russia is not targeting civilians.... But Russia has no interest in doing that, despite Ukraine hitting a beach in Crimea with families and killing children.[/QUOTE]Russia is targeting civilians, it has been proven time and again. They have a keen interest in doing it, why? Because they are Russian and have no morals. Ukraine didn't cause the carnage on that beach, it was the crappy air defence and deployment of. Also even the Z team told people not to go to that beach, but Orcs can't help themselves. Whatever risks I might take, I would not take any family to an active war zone for a beach vacation. Just shows the imperialist mentality of the Orcs.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2929515]Russia is targeting civilians, it has been proven time and again. They have a keen interest in doing it, why? Because they are Russian and have no morals. Ukraine didn't cause the carnage on that beach, it was the crappy air defence and deployment of. Also even the Z team told people not to go to that beach, but Orcs can't help themselves. Whatever risks I might take, I would not take any family to an active war zone for a beach vacation. Just shows the imperialist mentality of the Orcs.[/QUOTE]Your racist crap is disgusting.
Look, I understand why the latest bombing of the Kyiv Children Hospital is seen as an extraordinary event. The pure evil of this premeditated act makes it harder for those Russophiles and useful idiots in the West to look away and come up with their regular bothsider excuses.
But in reality, killing Ukrainian civilians -- including children, women and elderly -- is no big deal for Putin's Russia. They've been doing it for over two years, and they're completely comfortable with their methods. Seriously, what happened on July 8 is nothing extraordinary for those -- hmm, biological entities.
Just look at this war timeline (the sources are below). And keep in mind, it does NOT include any killings in the areas the Russians are currently occupying. That's more than likely going to add thousands upon thousands of victims when Ukraine has liberated its territory.
28 Feb. 2022 - 16 May 2022.
Russian siege of Mariupol: at least 8,034 deaths; likely up to 75,000.
3 Mar. 2022.
Invading Russian forces fire grenade launchers on a column of evacuating civilians between Motyzhyn and Yasnohorodka, killing 37 people.
9 Mar. 2022.
Russian airstrikes on a Mariupol maternity ward and children's hospital kill five people.
11 Mar. 2022.
A Russian tank kills 56 people at a nursing home in Kreminna.
16 Mar. 2022.
Donetsk.
A Russian airstrike on a Mariupol theater kills 300 sheltering civilians.
29 Mar. 2022.
A Russian airstrike on a regional administration building in Mykolaiv city kills 36 civilians.
1 Apr. 2022.
[QUOTE]Since Russian forces were pushed back from Kyiv at the end of March, the bodies of more than 1,000 civilians have been discovered in the Bucha region - many hastily buried in shallow graves. The BBC has learned that around 650 people were shot in what a senior police official has described as executions. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On 8 August 2022, officials released a count of civilian deaths in the town of Bucha alone: 458 bodies419 with signs of shooting, torture, or violent traumaand 39 of apparently natural causes but being scrutinized for their relationship to the Russian occupation. 366 were male, 86 female, and five of indiscernible gender due to their condition. Nine were children. 50 bodies remained unidentified, along with body parts and ash.[/QUOTE]The revelation of massacres of civilians in Bucha, Borodyanka, and Irpin suburbs of Kyiv city ends peace talks.
8 Apr. 2022.
A Russian missile carrying cluster munitions kills 57 people boarding an evacuation train in Kramatorsk.
7 May 2022.
A Russian airstrike kills 60 civilians sheltering at a school in Bilohorivka.
16 May 2022.
Russian forces capture Mariupol.
27 Jun. 2022.
A Russian missile strike on a shopping mall in Kremenchuk kills 20 civilians.
1 Jul. 2022.
A Russian airstrike on residential areas of Serhiivka kills 21 civilians.
9 Jul. 2022.
A Russian artillery strike on Chasiv Yar kills 48 civilians.
14 Jul. 2022.
A Russian missile strike on a concert hall in Vinnytsia city kills 25 civilians.
Unidentified explosion kills over 50 Ukrainian prisoners of war in Russian-held Olenivka.
25 Sep. 2022.
Russian forces kill 50 civilians attempting to evacuate from Kupiansk.
14 Jan. 2023.
A Russian missile strike on an apartment building in Dnipro city kills 46 civilians.
28 Apr. 2023.
A Russian missile hits an apartment building in Uman, killing 24 civilians.
3 May 2023.
Russian shelling of Kherson city kills 24 civilians.
13 Jun. 2023.
A Russian missile strike hits an apartment building in Kryvyi Rih, killing 13 civilians.
27 Jun. 2023.
A Russian missile strike on a restaurant in Kramatorsk kills 13 civilians.
6 Jul. 2023.
A Russian missile strike on a residential building in Lviv kills 10 civilians.
7 Aug. 2023.
Russian shelling of residential areas in Pokrovsk kills 10 civilians and wounds 82 others.
19 Aug. 2023.
A Russian missile strike on a drone exhibition kills seven civilians and wounds 150 others.
5 Oct. 2023.
Russian missile strike kills 59 civilians at a wake luncheon in Hroza.
29 Dec. 2023.
Russian missile and drone strikes kill 32 civilians in Kyiv city and two dozen others across the country.
6 Jan. 2024.
A Russian missile strike on Pokrovsk kills 11 civilians.
7 Feb. 2024.
Russian missile and drone strikes kill four and wound 40 others in Kyiv city.
2 Mar. 2024.
Odesa.
A Russian drone strike on a residential building in Odesa city kills 12 civilians.
15 Mar. 2024.
A Russian ballistic missile strike kills 21 people in central Odesa city.
17 Apr. 2024.
A Russian ballistic missile strike on Chernihiv city kills 18 civilians.
[QUOTE]According to the UN Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine (HRMMU), 703 civilians were killed or injured in April 2024, rising to 864 casualties in May a 31 per cent month-over-month increase in fatalities and the highest level since June 2023.[/QUOTE]8 Jul. 2024.
Kyiv, Kryvyi Rih, Dnipro, Pokrovsk, Kropyvnytskyi Massive attack against several Ukrainian cities including a Kyiv children hospital leaves at least 36 dead, 140 wounded, and the wounded keep dying.
Sources:
[URL]https://www.hrw.org/feature/russia-ukraine-war-mariupol/counting-the-dead[/URL]
[URL]https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/20-days-in-mariupol-filmmaker-q-and-a[/URL]
[URL]https://acleddata.com/ukraine-conflict-monitor/[/URL]#timeline.
[URL]https://reliefweb.int/report/ukraine/ukraine-situation-report-12-july-2024-enuk[/URL]#.
[URL]https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61442387[/URL]
[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucha_massacre[/URL]#cite_note-NYT-Gall-94.
[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucha_massacre[/URL]#cite_note-WaPo-Sly-95.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2929515]Russia is targeting civilians, it has been proven time and again. They have a keen interest in doing it, why? Because they are Russian and have no morals. [/QUOTE]You're correct that Russian servicemen aren't exactly paragons of virtue. Most come from tough backgrounds and grow up in poverty, far away from big cities. They keep their heads down, follow orders and suck up to their local bosses, so a power trip like this one is intoxicating.
But there's a big difference between killings on the ground and deliberately targeting civilians en masse, like on July 8th. Here, Russia's using a tactic straight out of a terrorist playbook: scare the living shit out of everyone in hope that Ukrainians crack and pressure Kyiv to just give in. A strike on a children's hospital is simply another tool in their arsenal. As I mentioned before, this war's been a nightmare for children from the get-go. The Mariupol theater bombing killed hundreds. So the message they're sending is crystal clear: surrender or keep digging your kids out of the rubble.
Will it work? Probably not. Hitler's Blitz didn't break the Brits, and the Allies bombing Dresden to oblivion didn't make the Germans fold either. If Russia were capable of learning from history, they would know that their extreme brutality will only make Ukraine fight harder.
On the other hand, had they been capable of learning, they wouldn't have started this disastrous war.
[QUOTE]Dmitry Medvedev, Russia's former president and prime minister, said on Wednesday that Russia will seek to occupy "remaining Ukrainian lands" even if Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky agrees to the Kremlin's most recent conditions for peace.
Medvedev, now deputy chairman of the Security Council of Russia, "reaffirmed that Russia would not accept or uphold any negotiated peace settlements with Kyiv short of Ukrainian capitulation, the destruction of the entire Ukrainian state, and the full occupation of Ukraine," the Institute for the Study of War, a U.S.-based think tank, said in its latest analysis of the conflict in Ukraine.
In a post on his Telegram channel, Medvedev said Zelensky agreeing to Putin's most recent conditions for peace will not constitute the "end of the Russian military operation" in Ukraine.
"Even after signing the papers and accepting defeat, the remaining radicals, after regrouping their forces, will sooner or later return to power, inspired by Russia's Western enemies. And then the time will come to finally crush the reptile. To drive a long steel nail into the coffin lid of Bandera's quasi-state," he said.
Russia will eventually return "remaining Ukrainian lands to the bosom of the Russian land," Medvedev wrote.[/QUOTE][URL]https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-peace-talks-medvedev-war-1923713[/URL]
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2929916][URL]https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-peace-talks-medvedev-war-1923713[/URL][/QUOTE]Dumbass, you don't even realize that Medvedev plays the good cop / bad cop thing.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2929505]despite Ukraine hitting a beach in Crimea with families and killing children. But that's okay in your book I guess.[/QUOTE]You guess wright. Sevastopol was and is military target, because of the Russian navy there and the close by military airport. Everybody going there on vacation at the beaches close by is rather stupid. Many better areas on Crimea, in this respect. Ask me, happy to give advice. I. e. Stormovoye. According to the news info, missile fragments hit the beach visitors. Either from attacking UA missiles, or Russian defense missiles. Not to be compared to a direct hit, like in Kiev.
[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2930294]You guess wright. Sevastopol was and is military target, because of the Russian navy there and the close by military airport. Everybody going there on vacation at the beaches close by is rather stupid. Many better areas on Crimea, in this respect. Ask me, happy to give advice. I. e. Stormovoye. According to the news info, missile fragments hit the beach visitors. Either from attacking UA missiles, or Russian defense missiles. Not to be compared to a direct hit, like in Kiev.[/QUOTE]Ukraine has been deliberately targeting Russian CIVILIANS in Crimea (And these people have lived there for centuries) and in the Donbas for years and years. But that's okay in your book because you are racist towards Russians and think Russian lives don't matter. And a beach with innocent civilians is not a military target, grow a brain.
Video of June 23rd attack in the middle of the article:
[URL]https://www.fontanka.ru/2024/06/25/73751654/[/URL]
To add faces to use of American cluster munitions against civilians: (run Google translate).
[URL]https://aif.ru/society/people/dvoe-detey-ostalis-sirotami-na-plyazhe-v-krymu-rakety-vsu-ubili-dvuh-mam[/URL]
99% of information on Ukraine in Western media is a mix of omissions and lies, mockery and debilitating paternalism.
The hardest facts are censored both in Ukrainian and Russian official media. I guess the sum of the above leaves the absolute majority of people in the West absolutely clueless on purpose.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2930365]Ukraine has been deliberately targeting Russian CIVILIANS in Crimea [/QUOTE]Obvious lie.
Quotation from fontanka. Ru:
Air defense forces shot down four missiles, and another one deviated from its flight path as a result of air defense impact. Its warhead exploded in the air above the city. .
No direct attack. Opposed to Russian barbaric attack on childrens hospital in Kiev.
Interestingly enough, even Russian politicians ask to close public beaches close to important military installations in Crimea.
Of course, after the accident, not too far from military airport Belbek, Sevastopol.
https://semnasem.org/news/2024/06/26/deputy-calls-for-closing-beaches-near-military-sites-in-krasnodar-and-sevastopol
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2929916][URL]https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-peace-talks-medvedev-war-1923713[/URL][/QUOTE]And why in the hell is Russia going to give up those lands? The only way it would not is if NATO goes to full war with Russia, but we do not have to wait for that. The guys here who are realistic about this was will chip in and buy all your gear myself included if you get off your ass from behind the keyboard and go fight the Russians yourself. WTF are you waiting for? Quit your griping and get to it soldier. You are asking the Ukrainians to put their lives on the line as opposed to trusting Putin. You should be willing to do the same you hypocrite.
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2930678]You are asking the Ukrainians to put their lives on the line as opposed to trusting Putin. [/QUOTE]Nobody is asking the Ukrainians. However, they are simply asking (begging?) for ammunition and weapons, not in small drops, like now, but in steady streams.
The (in-) famous Americans, who put their boots to fight onto Vietnams soil, or Afghanistans, are not even able or willing now to give such support.
But they can fight for economic interests, of course. Like in Iraq.
Similar for the Europeans, of course.
Both offering plenty of good words, though.
To trust Putler? Who broke the Budapest Agreement, after cheating the UA to drop their atomic weapons?
One more similarity of Wladimir to Adolf, BTW, who broke the agreement to the SU, not to attack.
[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2930572]Obvious lie.
Quotation from fontanka. Ru:
Air defense forces shot down four missiles, and another one deviated from its flight path as a result of air defense impact. Its warhead exploded in the air above the city. .
No direct attack. Opposed to Russian barbaric attack on childrens hospital in Kiev.
Interestingly enough, even Russian politicians ask to close public beaches close to important military installations in Crimea.
Of course, after the accident, not too far from military airport Belbek, Sevastopol.
https://semnasem.org/news/2024/06/26/deputy-calls-for-closing-beaches-near-military-sites-in-krasnodar-and-sevastopol[/QUOTE]Selective quoting. It's common knowledge that Ukraine has targeted Russian civilians deliberately, whether in Belgorod, the Donbas and Crimea.
[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2930765]Nobody is asking the Ukrainians. However, they are simply asking (begging?) for ammunition and weapons, not in small drops, like now, but in steady streams.
[/QUOTE]What you do not understand (Because you do not have a military background and believe the lies from the pathetic mainstream western media) is this:
The problem that Ukraine faces is 2-fold.
Lack of weapons.
Manpower.
The collective west cannot give Ukraine the weapons in the quantity that Ukraine needs, and I'm talking mainly about artillery here.
The most critical problem for Ukraine is manpower. The collective west cannot create soldiers for Ukraine. Sure, they can give it a lot of cash by printing money, but they can't print soldiers.
The 2 reasons highlighted above are the main reasons why Ukraine will lose this war.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2930857]
The problem that Ukraine faces is 2-fold.
1) Lack of weapons.
2)Manpower.
3)The collective west cannot give Ukraine the weapons in the quantity that Ukraine needs, and I'm talking mainly about artillery here.
[/QUOTE]1) is Correct. 2) is correct.
3) The West DOES NOT WANT to give Ukraine the weapons in quantity that Ukraine needs.
Producing artillery shells in huge quantity is no rocket science. Only question of money and WILL.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2930855] It's common knowledge that Ukraine has targeted Russian civilians deliberately, whether in Belgorod, the Donbas and Crimea.[/QUOTE]Since when are Russian civilians in Belgorod, Donbas or Crimea?
Occupied territories, so called "Russian civilians" there are simply occupiers or invaders.
Sent there to replace kidnapped Ukrainian children, or deported inhabitants. Good old Russian tradition, I. E. On Crimea.
[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2930860]1) is Correct. 2) is correct.
3) The West DOES NOT WANT to give Ukraine the weapons in quantity that Ukraine needs.
Producing artillery shells in huge quantity is no rocket science. Only question of money and WILL.[/QUOTE]I agree with you that the west does not want to give Ukraine the weapons in the quantity that Ukraine needs even if they had them. That's because they are cunts and want to USE Ukraine to make Russia weaker. And still you folks are cheering for this war to go on, think about it.
And if you read my post carefully, I said artillery, in particular the 155 mm shells. The west does not have the capacity right now to produce them in the numbers that Ukraine needs to match Russia.
[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2930862]Since when are Russian civilians in Belgorod, Donbas or Crimea?
Occupied territories, so called "Russian civilians" there are simply occupiers or invaders.
Sent there to replace kidnapped Ukrainian children, or deported inhabitants. Good old Russian tradition, I. E. On Crimea.[/QUOTE]Ummm, you do know that Belgorod is a part of Russia, or don't you?
There are ethnic Russians in Donbas and Crimea and Ukraine has been deliberately targeting them since 2014, especially the Donbas.
Remember Peter's denial and repentance? The West three times reneged on the agreements: in February 2014, the Minsk Agreements in Autumn of 2021 and the Istanbul agreements in Spring of 2022.
Three times Russia was fooled, and we won't repeat the same mistakes again.
In Autumn of 2021 Ukraine with the support of the US opted for Plan be which meant military action and breakdown of the Minsk Agreements. The negotiations stopped only close to February 8, 2022.
In fact, two UAF brigades crossed into Donbass at dawn of 24th before the start of the SMO.
As for munitions: no, Ukraine does not ask for them, it's a sales force within the belt and MIC and the sales people in Kiev who were hired for this war, they ask for more and more. It's a racket with 2% of GDP target and the rest of nations are stupid enough to pay up. We have a great proverb, 'If you don't pay for your own army, you are going to pay to a foreign one'. We produce 152 mm shells at 8 cents to the dollar compared to NATO, and will start with artillery production and purchase of 155 mm soon.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2930911]
I said artillery, in particular the 155 mm shells. The west does not have the capacity right now to produce them in the numbers that Ukraine needs to match Russia.[/QUOTE]In February: Czech President Petr Pavel said at the Munich Security Conference on Saturday. The president said the potential purchase concerned half a million rounds of 155-millimeter caliber ammunition and 300,000 rounds of 122-millimeter caliber ammunition.
The USA Is currently producing approximately 28,000 155 mm rounds per month, with a ramp-up plan to produce 70,000-80,000 rounds per month by the end of 2024.
Already sufficient for quite a while. Not counting European production, and South African.
Not only the numbers of shells count, but also the precision to deliver them. And here Western gear should have an advantage.
But, unfortunately, Western will is lacking. See the new American delays regarding F16.
[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2931010]In February: Czech President Petr Pavel said at the Munich Security Conference on Saturday. The president said the potential purchase concerned half a million rounds of 155-millimeter caliber ammunition and 300,000 rounds of 122-millimeter caliber ammunition.
The USA Is currently producing approximately 28,000 155 mm rounds per month, with a ramp-up plan to produce 70,000-80,000 rounds per month by the end of 2024.
Already sufficient for quite a while. Not counting European production, and South African.
Not only the numbers of shells count, but also the precision to deliver them. And here Western gear should have an advantage.
But, unfortunately, Western will is lacking. See the new American delays regarding F16.[/QUOTE]You didn't post the Russian production numbers.
The F16's won't change anything, just like the Leopards or the Bradleys or the Challengers or the Abrams didn't. The F16's will just BURN.
The corporate sponsored bonus for the first shot down F-16 has been set at 15 million rubles (or $150,000 plus).
The latest on the conflict from the official RF's POV:
[URL]https://mid.ru/en/foreign_policy/news/1962610/[/URL]
[URL]https://mid.ru/en/foreign_policy/news/1962428/[/URL]
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2930678]And why in the hell is Russia going to give up those lands? The only way it would not is if NATO goes to full war with Russia, but we do not have to wait for that. The guys here who are realistic about this was will chip in and buy all your gear myself included if you get off your ass from behind the keyboard and go fight the Russians yourself. WTF are you waiting for? Quit your griping and get to it soldier. You are asking the Ukrainians to put their lives on the line as opposed to trusting Putin. You should be willing to do the same you hypocrite.[/QUOTE]LOL, dude, "the guys here who are realistic about this" are Putin's trolls. They're lying here for money. If I weren't watching your posts for a long time and didn't know that you're just a crazy fool who's willing to believe in anything -- you could've fooled me. Good job -- doing the work of fascists and war criminals for them.
[B]'Useful Idiots'—Stalin's Then and Putin's Now[/B]
[URL]https://prospect.org/blogs-and-newsletters/tap/2024-02-20-useful-idiots-stalins-then-putins-now[/URL]
These fools come up with a new wonder weapon every 3 months and tout it like it will make a difference and change the final outcome. It won't.
We heard this same non sense with the Leopards, how it would help the Ukrainian counter offensive in 2023. How did that work out? It was a suicide mission.
Like I already said, the F16's will be shot down and burn.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2931691]... Like I already said, the F16's will be shot down and burn.[/QUOTE]Put your money where your mouth is -- how about betting your monthly FSB stipend? I'll guess I could cover it. How much do you get?
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2931691]These fools come up with a new wonder weapon every 3 months and tout it like it will make a difference and change the final outcome. It won't.
We heard this same non sense with the Leopards, how it would help the Ukrainian counter offensive in 2023. How did that work out? It was a suicide mission.
Like I already said, the F16's will be shot down and burn.[/QUOTE]You're hilarious. Your commanders are throwing their serfs in meat assaults 24/7. That's two years of uninterrupted suicide missions. You're burning through thousands of Russian bodies EVERY FUCKING DAY!
Just wait. The meat will run out soon enough.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2931846]You're hilarious. Your commanders are throwing their serfs in meat assaults 24/7. That's two years of uninterrupted suicide missions. You're burning through thousands of Russian bodies EVERY FUCKING DAY!
Just wait. The meat will run out soon enough.[/QUOTE]You still won't talk about the Ukrainian casualties. It's obvious why.
Until the last Ukrainian? Sickening.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2931775]Put your money where your mouth is -- how about betting your monthly FSB stipend? I'll guess I could cover it. How much do you get?[/QUOTE]You are a dumbass.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2931492]You didn't post the Russian production numbers.
[/QUOTE]Why should I?
Everybody knows, Putler is buying shells in North Korea. Which means, he is not producing enough himself.
May be, even more than the West is willing to donate to UA. Actually.
But the West is able to increase production much faster than Putler.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2931945]You are a dumbass.[/QUOTE]Just tell us how much you make and I'll stop asking.
[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2932025]
But the West is able to increase production much faster than Putler.[/QUOTE]Keep believing the lies being fed to you.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2931944]You still won't talk about the Ukrainian casualties. It's obvious why.
Until the last Ukrainian? Sickening.[/QUOTE]Talk about what? Ukrainian casualties are not anywhere on the same level. If you had favorable numbers from reputable sources, you wouldn't ask me. You'd already scream them from the top of the roof.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2932174]Talk about what? Ukrainian casualties are not anywhere on the same level. If you had favorable numbers from reputable sources, you wouldn't ask me. You'd already scream them from the top of the roof.[/QUOTE]Why are you afraid to answer a simple question? You quoted the Russian casualties (as per your sources that you believe), so it's only fair that you share what is the number of Ukranian casualties from your sources that you're willing to believe.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2932266]Why are you afraid to answer a simple question? You quoted the Russian casualties (as per your sources that you believe), so it's only fair that you share what is the number of Ukranian casualties from your sources that you're willing to believe.[/QUOTE]Because I don't make things up? How about that?
I don't know the Ukrainian casualties. The Russian casualties are well established. They're published by Ukraine daily and turned out to be quite conservative according to the latest Western intelligence estimates.
The Ukrainian casualties estimates, however, aren't available from reputable sources. So, be a good boy and fuck off.
Better tell us again how much Putin loves Ukrainian children.
Find it much more illuminating:
[URL]https://t.me/s/TrackAMerc[/URL]
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2932394]Because I don't make things up? How about that?
I don't know the Ukrainian casualties. The Russian casualties are well established. They're published by Ukraine daily and turned out to be quite conservative according to the latest Western intelligence estimates.
The Ukrainian casualties estimates, however, aren't available from reputable sources. So, be a good boy and fuck off.
Better tell us again how much Putin loves Ukrainian children.[/QUOTE]Dude, you make everything up. Ukraine has and will always lie about everything, why would they be honest about war or casualties. It amazes me how little you know about Ukraine people, that is probably because you have never visited either Ukraine or Russia. I visited both frequently, Russia was amazing, highly functioning and people were living a nice life. Ukraine had become a dump and was being over run by corruption, it was terrible. I am one of the few people that ever wrote about this. Why stop lying and making crap up.
The rate is 5-1 dead Ukraine's to every dead Russian, probably closer to 7-1 or even higher. You truly live in a fantasy world. This also does not count the critically wounded, guys and girls that lost limbs or worse. They will never have normal life.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2932394]Because I don't make things up? How about that?
I don't know the Ukrainian casualties. The Russian casualties are well established. They're published by Ukraine daily and turned out to be quite conservative according to the latest Western intelligence estimates.
The Ukrainian casualties estimates, however, aren't available from reputable sources. So, be a good boy and fuck off.
Better tell us again how much Putin loves Ukrainian children.[/QUOTE]Zelensky quoted some figures a while back. Are you saying they are not credible? Are you saying the very honest Ukrainian President is not a reputable source?
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2932530]Ukraine had become a dump and was being over run by corruption, it was terrible. [/QUOTE]You know, that Russias ranking in the list of most corrupt countries is even worse than Ukraines.
And you are not the only one, who knows both RF and UA. I worked and lived 5 yrs in the RF, and also about 5 yrs in UA. Corrupt were / are both.
In the previous Millenium, even possible to bribe judges in the RF for a few hundred bucks.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2932532]Zelensky quoted some figures a while back. Are you saying they are not credible? Are you saying the very honest Ukrainian President is not a reputable source?[/QUOTE]Is this what your employer is paying you for -- childish bickering?
If you have this information, why ask me? What's wrong with you?
In the meantime, Putin introduced a mind-blowing $22,000 signing bonus for Moscovites. Because, you know, the Third Rome is doing so great and there's no shortage of canon fodder, right?
The average monthly salary in Russia is about $1 K.
Per Wikipedia (considered to reflect Western POV. Always read the same article in as many languages as possible as content usually differs):
[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War[/URL]
As of February 2024 Russian source (run Google translate, don't read BM comments below):
[URL]https://topwar.ru/237277-ot-31-do-444-tysjach-ocenki-ukrainskih-poter.html[/URL]
As we follow obituaries and verify them, the UAF death toll excluding MIA, POW, deserters etc closes on a half of a million.
Again, I wish no one even get a scratch on a hand.
Zed of course lies. There are daily visual technical control measures to prove it.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2932594]Is this what your employer is paying you for -- childish bickering?
If you have this information, why ask me? What's wrong with you?
In the meantime, Putin introduced a mind-blowing $22,000 signing bonus for Moscovites. Because, you know, the Third Rome is doing so great and there's no shortage of canon fodder, right?
The average monthly salary in Russia is about $1 K.[/QUOTE]I just find it odd that you are quick to quote the Russian casualty figures but don't have the balls to speak about those for AFU.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2932530]
The rate is 5-1 dead Ukraine's to every dead Russian, probably closer to 7-1 or even higher. You truly live in a fantasy world. This also does not count the critically wounded, guys and girls that lost limbs or worse. They will never have normal life.[/QUOTE]Anyone that believes the Ukrainian propaganda is either stupid or delusional. The ratio of casualties you have posted is correct. Anyone that understands warfare, artillery, manpower, etc, or anyone with any common sense would agree with that ratio. To claim the Russians are suffering far more casualties than the Ukrainians makes no sense and defies logic. But then again, a lot of people are happy to go along with the propaganda and lies. That is, until reality catches up. And it will catch up soon.
Remember Afghanistan? Does anyone? The media doesn't talk about it anymore. NATO spent about 20 years there, and we were told the same lies, that they will stay until the very end, that the Taliban were being defeated, and does anyone remember what happened? Suddenly we saw NATO leaving with people falling off fleeing aircraft and we had the Afghan Zelensky, Ashraf Ghani, fleeing Afghanistan with suitcases full of money to the west. The same will happen in Ukraine. Wait for it. What a horrific, needless tragedy. NATO and the collective west are pure evil.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2932811] The ratio of casualties you have posted is correct. Anyone that understands warfare, artillery, manpower, etc, or anyone with any common sense would agree with that ratio. [/QUOTE]Where do you get your special knowledge from? Good connection to the GRU?
You often clame some so called "facts", without any (serious) source. Your private speculations (or directed desinformation? Presented as "facts".
And when you talk about Afghanistan: Didn't the glorious Red Army (and some East-German paratroopers, helping the poor Russians) retreat without balls from Afghanistan?
According to your simple arithmetics, the Russians should have won ...
Hasn't this "special military operation" shown the experts here that land, sea & air war has been incrementally changing? And isn't it it premature to be making predictions. Asshole Colonel Douglas McGregor has been claiming for quite a while that Ukraine would capitulate in 10 days or less.
[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2932882]Where do you get your special knowledge from? Good connection to the GRU?
You often clame some so called "facts", without any (serious) source. Your private speculations (or directed desinformation? Presented as "facts".
And when you talk about Afghanistan: Didn't the glorious Red Army (and some East-German paratroopers, helping the poor Russians) retreat without balls from Afghanistan?
According to your simple arithmetics, the Russians should have won ...[/QUOTE]
You can believe the numbers that Ukraine is giving, that is your prerogative. Time will tell who is right and who is wrong.
I gave Afghanistan as an example of the treachery of NATO and the collective west. I guess that one went over your head, not surprising really. But do try to put 2 and 2 together. Of course the Red Army lost in Afghanistan. No one can defeat the Afghans. But once again I stress, I'm talking about NATO treachery here. Ukraine will see that very soon.
[QUOTE=Beijing4987;2932901]Hasn't this "special military operation" shown the experts here that land, sea & air war has been incrementally changing? And isn't it it premature to be making predictions. Asshole Colonel Douglas McGregor has been claiming for quite a while that Ukraine would capitulate in 10 days or less.[/QUOTE]So, McGregor is an asshole but Ben Hodges and David Petraeus, that claimed Ukraine will have a highly successful counter offensive in 2023 are right? You don't know what you're talking about.
My point is that Douglas McGregor's predictions are premature. His information is from insider sources he can't disclose. The nature of war is changing. That we do know. Now back to the speculation about body count ratios. McGregor just released an address advocating isolationism and abstinence to constant foreign wars. A noble gesture we could all hope for, but wishful thinking. It's not over until one side blinks. Russia has some momentum at the moment.
[QUOTE=Beijing4987;2932991]My point is that Douglas McGregor's predictions are premature. His information is from insider sources he can't disclose. The nature of war is changing. That we do know. Now back to the speculation about body count ratios. McGregor just released an address advocating isolationism and abstinence to constant foreign wars. A noble gesture we could all hope for, but wishful thinking. It's not over until one side blinks. Russia has some momentum at the moment.[/QUOTE]I actually agree with you about McGregor's predictions, they have been proven wrong quite often and are premature. But overall, the man is right. About the current state of affairs, and as to how this whole conflict began. I agree it's not over, but I stand by what I have said from day 1, that this conflict will end with a Russian victory.
[QUOTE=Beijing4987;2932901]Hasn't this "special military operation" shown the experts here that land, sea & air war has been incrementally changing? And isn't it it premature to be making predictions. Asshole Colonel Douglas McGregor has been claiming for quite a while that Ukraine would capitulate in 10 days or less.[/QUOTE]Land, sea and air warfare has changed even more radically than Hitler's blitzkrieg into France changed it, Drones are a major factor. The USA suffered their heaviest fatalities in Aprtil 1945 when the Wehrmacht was on its last legs. Even though the Wehrmacht were being battered, they could counter attack, albeit with less force than previously. Don; t take all your knoweldge from CNN and the pro Ukrainian ladyboys who hog this thread.
Have you ever experienced a Russian glider bomb? A thing of beauty. Whoosh. Everything is gone. Nothing remains. War is a beautiful thing.
Russian literature can work as a mirror to understanding the psyche behind the current events.
Here is [URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Souls[/URL] by Gogol (not your caricature General Gogol from 007 franchise).
Quote 'Chichikov is revealed by the author to be a former mid-level government official fired for corruption and narrowly avoiding jail. His macabre mission to acquire "dead souls" is actually just another one of his "get rich quick" schemes. Once he acquires enough dead souls, he will take out an enormous loan against them and pocket the money. '.
Sounds familiar? The Ukrainian government collect money from the West to finance the number of the soldiers who are long gone. Dead souls. So comes your massive understating of losses at the battlefield. The men are long gone but they are still on a payroll on paper.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2932971]You can believe the numbers that Ukraine is giving, that is your prerogative. Time will tell who is right and who is wrong.
I gave Afghanistan as an example of the treachery of NATO and the collective west. I guess that one went over your head, not surprising really. But do try to put 2 and 2 together. Of course the Red Army lost in Afghanistan. No one can defeat the Afghans. But once again I stress, I'm talking about NATO treachery here. Ukraine will see that very soon.[/QUOTE]Another day -- another 1,200 Putin's liberators bite the dust.
Practically routine now.
[URL]https://www.reddit.com/r/RussianLosses/comments/1edzcgt/estimated_russian_losses_from_24022022_to[/URL]
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2933340]Another day -- another 1,200 Putin's liberators bite the dust.
Practically routine now.
[URL]https://www.reddit.com/r/RussianLosses/comments/1edzcgt/estimated_russian_losses_from_24022022_to[/URL][/QUOTE]And Russia is taking territory everyday and destroying AFU.
Ukraine is winning.
P. s you are a dumbass.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2933562]And Russia is taking territory everyday and destroying AFU.
Ukraine is winning.
P. s you are a dumbass.[/QUOTE]Have you given any thought to your future source of income after the collapse of the Russian Federation?
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2933562]And Russia is taking territory everyday and destroying AFU.
Ukraine is winning.
P. s you are a dumbass.[/QUOTE]Yeah, Russia's taking. Aha.
What Russia's taking is a few village streets per week while cheerfully destroying their so-called army in the process.
Anyone who might be thinking to themselves "gee, maybe those mighty Russians are really on a cusp of winning" can check this interactive map for their actual "progress". You can easily track their movement daily, weekly or monthly.
[URL]https://deepstatemap.live/en[/URL]
Remember Kyiv in three days, LOL.
In other news: 1,200 dead and crippled Orks per day with almost nothing to show for it. In other words, business as usual. Routine.
Woops, just checked again, and it's been corrected. "Only" 1,180 today. Sorry for overstating your losses.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2933619]Have you given any thought to your future source of income after the collapse of the Russian Federation?[/QUOTE]He'll have more pressing issues, unfortunately. The RF collapse will be anything but peaceful, and finding a country to take him might prove difficult.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2933760]
Remember Kyiv in three days, LOL.
.[/QUOTE]No Russian official ever said that, dumbass.
Do you know who actually said that? General Mark Milley. Google who he is if you don't know, and there's a lot you don't know.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2933764]He'll have more pressing issues, unfortunately. The RF collapse will be anything but peaceful, and finding a country to take him might prove difficult.[/QUOTE]Pure comedy.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2933912]Pure comedy.[/QUOTE]Yeah, they are a joke but I am not laughing. This was literally something that scared the shit out of me today.
Go to around the 12 minute mark in this video. [URL]https://www.bitchute.com/video/9gHlVNJ1Pu9P/[/URL].
You got a former American colonel saying a Russian supersonic bomber was destroyed by drones and the drones were launched from Finland which is NATO country. This is an act of war by NATO if it was in fact NATO that launched the drones.
He hedges his bet by saying it probably was Finland and doubts Ukraine could do it.
Peter Zeihan, who may as well be the spokesperson for the CIA, then puts this piece out about how great Ukrainian drones have become. [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlRNLCq4HWE[/URL].
It seems like he is trying to convince the Russians, "Yeah, it could have been Ukraine. ".
NATO blowing up a Russian supersonic bomber on Russian soil? Are you fucking kidding me? I listen to the Colonel and he makes the point that it is not NATO and the USA we are relying on to be rational but Putin. How fucked up is that? And yes, I have more faith in Putin's rationality than I do NATO or the USA right now because right now no one knows who is calling the shots with NATO and the USA. If you think it is Biden, you are as demented as he is.
Yet, the idiotic Dems keep using these Hitler analogies. Could Hitler push a button and destroy the USA like Putin can? How much more shit is Putin supposed to take?
Now we just have to hear the dumb Dems come in here and say it is good we blew up a Russian bomber on Russian soil. Yeesh.
Out of commedia dell'arte characters. I've met many and many are long departed. So, to put money on the table, here are examples of bonuses promised and already paid by Russian businessmen and artists for destroyed NATO equipment in Ukraine:
TANKS: Abrams (USA) – 10 million rubles, Leopard (Germany) - 1 million rubles; Leclerc (France) wheeled tank IMX-10 - 500,000 rubles.
Air defense systems: Patriot air defense missile system, USA – 10 million rubles; Himars air defense missile system, USA – 5 million rubles, Gepard, Germany – 500,000 rubles.
ARTILLERY: Howitzer 155 mm 777, USA - 1 million rubles; AHS Krab self-propelled gun, Poland – 1 million rubles.
ARMORED VEHICLES: Bradley (USA) - 500,000 rubles; Marder (Germany) - 500,000 rubles, International MaxxPro, USA - 500,000 rubles; Kirpy Türkiye — 500,000 rubles.
Not shabby at all.
Satellite images of the Olenya airbase after the recent Ukrainian drone strike attempt.
As you can see, there is no visual confirmation of the Tu-22 M3 being hit or even traces of the drone flying in the vicinity of the airbase, despite the stories being spread by the Ukrainian Intelligence.
[URL]https://t.me/milinfolive/127108[/URL]
Nothing came from Finland. Yes, drones can fly far. Hitting one such aircraft will be a major escalation, it's beyond the so called red lines. Yes, it's serious. When the previous time anyone here was at the nearest nuclear bunker?
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2933970]
You got a former American colonel saying a Russian supersonic bomber was destroyed by drones and the drones were launched from Finland which is NATO country. [/QUOTE]Wrong.
You are spreading desinformation, because the guy used the words "probably launched from Finland" .
Only a question of money, to buy a former Speznaz guy to sneak close to a Russian airbase and launch a drone to attack.
All this stuff is interesting as a goiter!
What about the lone pussies to fuck in Kiew?
No one dares to go and check it out instead spreading fake news?
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2933970]Yeah, they are a joke but I am not laughing. This was literally something that scared the shit out of me today.
Go to around the 12 minute mark in this video. [URL]https://www.bitchute.com/video/9gHlVNJ1Pu9P/[/URL].
You got a former American colonel saying a Russian supersonic bomber was destroyed by drones and the drones were launched from Finland which is NATO country. This is an act of war by NATO if it was in fact NATO that launched the drones.
He hedges his bet by saying it probably was Finland and doubts Ukraine could do it.
Peter Zeihan, who may as well be the spokesperson for the CIA, then puts this piece out about how great Ukrainian drones have become. [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlRNLCq4HWE[/URL].
It seems like he is trying to convince the Russians, "Yeah, it could have been Ukraine. ".
NATO blowing up a Russian supersonic bomber on Russian soil? Are you fucking kidding me? I listen to the Colonel and he makes the point that it is not NATO and the USA we are relying on to be rational but Putin. How fucked up is that? And yes, I have more faith in Putin's rationality than I do NATO or the USA right now because right now no one knows who is calling the shots with NATO and the USA. If you think it is Biden, you are as demented as he is.
Yet, the idiotic Dems keep using these Hitler analogies. Could Hitler push a button and destroy the USA like Putin can? How much more shit is Putin supposed to take?
Now we just have to hear the dumb Dems come in here and say it is good we blew up a Russian bomber on Russian soil. Yeesh.[/QUOTE]Yep, the Dem. Dumb Asses, do not realize that American and the Brits. Are running the sophisticated weapons. Letting them fight in Ukraine is one thing, but attacking Russia is insane. Putin needs to to turn the Generals lose and end this.
[QUOTE=Questner;2934015]Satellite images of the Olenya airbase after the recent Ukrainian drone strike attempt.
As you can see, there is no visual confirmation of the Tu-22 M3 being hit or even traces of the drone flying in the vicinity of the airbase, despite the stories being spread by the Ukrainian Intelligence.
[URL]https://t.me/milinfolive/127108[/URL]
Nothing came from Finland. Yes, drones can fly far. Hitting one such aircraft will be a major escalation, it's beyond the so called red lines. Yes, it's serious. When the previous time anyone here was at the nearest nuclear bunker?[/QUOTE]Good. Nothing would make me happier if that story were not true.
[QUOTE=Questner;2934015]Satellite images of the Olenya airbase after the recent Ukrainian drone strike attempt.
As you can see, there is no visual confirmation of the Tu-22 M3 being hit or even traces of the drone flying in the vicinity of the airbase, despite the stories being spread by the Ukrainian Intelligence.
[URL]https://t.me/milinfolive/127108[/URL][/QUOTE]"As you can see" says Questner and links to a pro-Putin Telegram channel, which is as "reliable" as Questner himself.
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2933970]Yeah, they are a joke but I am not laughing. This was literally something that scared the shit out of me today.
Go to around the 12 minute mark in this video. [URL]https://www.bitchute.com/video/9gHlVNJ1Pu9P/[/URL].
You got a former American colonel saying a Russian supersonic bomber was destroyed by drones and the drones were launched from Finland which is NATO country.[/QUOTE]Is there any bullshit story in this world that you and your Trump cult brethren wouldn't believe, sigh.
The Ukrainian drones flew 1,100 miles and successfully hit the Olenya airfield having damaged at least one Russian TU-22 M3 strategic bomber.
The end.
[URL]https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-july-27-2024[/URL]
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2933911]No Russian official ever said that, dumbass.
Do you know who actually said that? General Mark Milley. Google who he is if you don't know, and there's a lot you don't know.[/QUOTE]Before running away from that discussion with your tail between your legs.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2934302]Before running away from that discussion with your tail between your legs.[/QUOTE]You have an IQ of 22 so it is very easy to own you.
Here you go. This is the man who said 'Kiev in 3 days'. The Chairman of the you. S Chief of General staff, Mark Milley.
[URL]https://www.foxnews.com/us/gen-milley-says-kyiv-could-fall-within-72-hours-if-russia-decides-to-invade-ukraine-sources[/URL]
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2934355]You have an IQ of 22 so it is very easy to own you.
Here you go. This is the man who said 'Kiev in 3 days'. The Chairman of the you. S Chief of General staff, Mark Milley.
[URL]https://www.foxnews.com/us/gen-milley-says-kyiv-could-fall-within-72-hours-if-russia-decides-to-invade-ukraine-sources[/URL][/QUOTE]That's fine. If there existed a self-respect measuring score, you'd get a cool number of zero.
Alexander Lukashenko, dictator of Belarus.
[QUOTE]This war will last 3-4 days, at the most[/QUOTE]Vladimir Soloviev, top Putin's propogandist.
[QUOTE]We'll raise an eyebrow and Ukraine will understand everything.[/QUOTE]Artem Sheinin, Russian propagandist and executive of the state-controlled Channel One.
[QUOTE]And Kyiv will be taken so quickly -- 1.5-3 days [/QUOTE]Olga Skabyeeva, lead TV propagandist, AKA "Iron Doll of Putin TV".
[QUOTE]Two days, then the fall of the city. [/QUOTE]Margarita Simonyan, media executive and head of the Russian state-controlled RT and the state-owned Rossiya Segodnya.
[QUOTE]In a hot war we will defeat Ukraine in 2 days; what's there to defeat, Jesus -- that's Ukraine![/QUOTE]And of course, the cherry on top:
Vladimir Putin:
[QUOTE]If I wanted to, I could take Kiev in two weeks.[/QUOTE][URL]https://twitter.com/i/status/1649011513259175937[/URL]
[URL]https://time.com/3259699/putin-boast-kiev-2-weeks[/URL]
Then again, why let the facts stay on the way of your narrative. Carry on.
As Russia advances on the New York front, litte rat Zelensky is gwetting desperate. But how desperate are Ukraine's female "refugees"? How amenable are they to be buggered and do "things" to each other? Are their prices holding up?
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2934756]
Vladimir Putin: If I wanted to, I could take Kiev in two weeks.
[URL]https://time.com/3259699/putin-boast-kiev-2-weeks[/URL]
[/QUOTE]At the risk of being repetitive, the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights estimated the number of Ukrainian civilian deaths during the first two years of the war, to February 24,2024, at 10,582. The number of civilians in Gaza killed by Israel in 10 months is over 30,000. And Ukraine has almost 20 X the population of the Gaza Strip.
Russia must be going out of its way to avoid civilian casualties. Putin could capture Kiev in a lot less than 2 weeks if he really set his mind to it. Your estimate of 3 days is closer to the mark. It took 4 days from the time the USA dropped the bomb on Hiroshima for the Japanese to propose surrender. Russia has the largest nuclear armory in the world.
Hamas does not have sophisticated weapons to.
Shoot down jets bombing Gaza into rubble. But yes, Putin is trying to.
Make a point, regardless of the toll of blood & Treasure on his own country.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2934869]Russia must be going out of its way to avoid civilian casualties. Putin could capture Kiev in a lot less than 2 weeks if he really set his mind to it. Your estimate of 3 days is closer to the mark. It took 4 days from the time the USA dropped the bomb on Hiroshima for the Japanese to propose surrender. Russia has the largest nuclear armory in the world.[/QUOTE]While disagreeing with you politically on a number of issues, I used to considered you an intelligent and independent thinker. Well, too bad. Parroting such unfathomable falsehood after thousands of rapes, tortures, and executions of civilians in Bucha and other formerly occupied regions of Ukraine; after murdering tens of thousands of civilians in Mariupol; after knowing Russians' MO (bombing whole cities to the ground) is dumb, unconscionable, or both.
Your "nuclear" argument is also dumbfounded. First, yes, Russia has plenty of nuclear warheads, but it's not the only country that does (unlike America in 1945, so your analogy is faulty). Second, China -- the country Russia can't afford to upset -- has no interest in nuclear escalation. Third, god only knows how many Russia's warheads are fully operational, considering they're losing regular payloads over their own territory like pigeon droppings.
"Going out of its way," yeah, aha!
[B]2 years after the horrors at Bucha, some families struggle to come to terms with atrocities[/B]
[URL]https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/2-years-after-the-horrors-at-bucha-some-families-struggle-to-come-to-terms-with-atrocities[/URL]
[B]Russia obliterates Ukraines front-line towns with hacked bombs and expanded air base network[/B]
[URL]https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/russia-obliterates-ukraines-front-line-towns-with-hacked-bombs-and-expanded-air-base-network[/URL]
[B]Russia's devastating glide bombs keep falling on its own territory[/B]
[URL]https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/07/01/russia-glide-bomb-belgorod-fab[/URL]
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2934756]That's fine. If there existed a self-respect measuring score, you'd get a cool number of zero.
Alexander Lukashenko, dictator of Belarus.
Vladimir Soloviev, top Putin's propogandist.
Artem Sheinin, Russian propagandist and executive of the state-controlled Channel One.
Olga Skabyeeva, lead TV propagandist, AKA "Iron Doll of Putin TV".
Margarita Simonyan, media executive and head of the Russian state-controlled RT and the state-owned Rossiya Segodnya.
And of course, the cherry on top:
Vladimir Putin:
[URL]https://twitter.com/i/status/1649011513259175937[/URL]
[URL]https://time.com/3259699/putin-boast-kiev-2-weeks[/URL]
Then again, why let the facts stay on the way of your narrative. Carry on.[/QUOTE]Pay attention, dumbass. I said no Russian official ever said that. Lukashenko is not a Russian official. The links you posted are not proof that Putin ever said that, because he never did. Neither did any Russian government official. It's a lie the pathetic western mainstream media came up with that dipshits like you ran with.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2934869]At the risk of being repetitive, the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights estimated the number of Ukrainian civilian deaths during the first two years of the war, to February 24,2024, at 10,582. The number of civilians in Gaza killed by Israel in 10 months is over 30,000. And Ukraine has almost 20 X the population of the Gaza Strip.
Russia must be going out of its way to avoid civilian casualties. Putin could capture Kiev in a lot less than 2 weeks if he really set his mind to it. Your estimate of 3 days is closer to the mark. It took 4 days from the time the USA dropped the bomb on Hiroshima for the Japanese to propose surrender. Russia has the largest nuclear armory in the world.[/QUOTE]Exactly, Russia has gone out of their way to avoid targeting civilians. Look at what the Zionists are doing and have done in Gaza, they have FLATTENED the place, the topography of Gaza is like a pancake now. Kiev still has bars, restaurants and clubs open and people that can afford to are enjoying themselves.
That's right. Putin only occasionally bombs a church, hospital or school full of white orthodox Christians or threatens to use nuclear weapons.
[QUOTE=Beijing4987;2934956]That's right. Putin only occasionally bombs a church, hospital or school full of white orthodox Christians or threatens to use nuclear weapons.[/QUOTE]Got it. It's OK though to bomb mosques and hospitals full of brown Muslims thousands of miles away from your borders.
[URL]https://edition.cnn.com/2017/04/18/middleeast/human-rights-watch-report-syria-mosque-bombing/index.html[/URL]
[URL]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5930682/[/URL]
Or to indirectly kill millions with sanctions and the like.
[URL]https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/papers/summary[/URL]
[URL]https://www.tni.org/en/article/how-to-kill-an-entire-country[/URL]
That said, you have an interesting point. White orthodox Christians, who can speak the same language, are killing each other. It would be like the USA going to war against Canada, or France against Belgium. You would lay the blame entirely on Putin, and absolve the West. That's just not right. If not for neoconservatives and the like, Russia might today be a member of NATO and the EU. Yeah, maybe it would have a president who thinks more like Viktor Orban than Emmanuel Macron, but maybe that's not so bad. This war never should have happened.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2934910]While disagreeing with you politically on a number of issues, I used to considered you an intelligent and independent thinker. Well, too bad. Parroting such unfathomable falsehood after thousands of rapes, tortures, and executions of civilians in Bucha and other formerly occupied regions of Ukraine; after murdering tens of thousands of civilians in Mariupol; after knowing Russians' MO (bombing whole cities to the ground) is dumb, unconscionable, or both.
Your "nuclear" argument is also dumbfounded. First, yes, Russia has plenty of nuclear warheads, but it's not the only country that does (unlike America in 1945, so your analogy is faulty). Second, China -- the country Russia can't afford to upset -- has no interest in nuclear escalation. Third, god only knows how many Russia's warheads are fully operational, considering they're losing regular payloads over their own territory like pigeon droppings.
"Going out of its way," yeah, aha!
[B]2 years after the horrors at Bucha, some families struggle to come to terms with atrocities[/B]
[URL]https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/2-years-after-the-horrors-at-bucha-some-families-struggle-to-come-to-terms-with-atrocities[/URL]
[B]Russia obliterates Ukraines front-line towns with hacked bombs and expanded air base network[/B]
[URL]https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/russia-obliterates-ukraines-front-line-towns-with-hacked-bombs-and-expanded-air-base-network[/URL]
[B]Russia's devastating glide bombs keep falling on its own territory[/B]
[URL]https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/07/01/russia-glide-bomb-belgorod-fab[/URL][/QUOTE]I've taken another look at civilian deaths in Ukraine, and the number I quoted doesn't include people who are missing. If you add in those and other excess deaths you may be able to get to 30,000 deaths or more. Still, the number of combatant deaths is multiples of civilian deaths. And, with a population that's almost 20 X larger and a war that's gone on for 20 months longer, Ukraine may very well have suffered fewer civilian casualties than Gaza. Israel presumably isn't targeting civilians.
The probability Russia will use nuclear weapons is very, very low. But, obviously, it does have them. And if Russia just started carpet bombing civilians, the death toll would be much higher than it is.
The takeaway from your first link, which focuses on the death of a Ukrainian civilian combatant near Kyiv, is that war is hell. All the more reason to bring this to an end, which will require Ukraine to give up territory it's already lost. Hopefully Ukraine will have some guarantee of independence and security going forward. That would have been a likely outcome if the West and Ukraine had come to the negotiating table 6 to 18 months ago, when the two sides were in a stalemate. Now that Russia's making gains, maybe not. Too bad the neoconservatives in the West and the Ukrainian leadership weren't inclined to negotiate back then.
The takeaway from your second link is that Russia is trying to make Kharkiv unliveable for civilians by bombing. But then the third link kind of negates that. Apparently a good number of the Russian bombs are landing in Russia. In many instances, the Russians don't appear to be targeting civilians. Rather, their weapons aren't accurate.
Sorry for calling you a neoconservative. You're not. That term should only apply to politicians and people who work in the defense and foreign policy establishment. I try to only criticize politicians and the like and not fellow board members, and fucked up on that score.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2934922]Pay attention, dumbass. I said no Russian official ever said that. Lukashenko is not a Russian official. The links you posted are not proof that Putin ever said that, because he never did. Neither did any Russian government official. It's a lie the pathetic western mainstream media came up with that dipshits like you ran with.[/QUOTE]Every individual in my links is a Putin's OFFICIAL mouthpiece. Just because he doesn't OFFICIALLY have a Ministry of Propaganda like his idol Adolf, doesn't mean that his propagandists are not Russian OFFICIALS. They all are.
The final link I provided is for Putin's own words. Even his so-called "press-secretary" Peskov admitted he said that. Denying something that obvious and verifiable is just silly.
Finally, trying to cover your lack of reasoning skills with rudeness and personal insults never works. It only makes you look bad. If I were your supervisor, I'd fire you on the spot.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935038]I've taken another look at civilian deaths in Ukraine, and the number I quoted doesn't include people who are missing. If you add in those and other excess deaths you may be able to get to 30,000 deaths or more. [/QUOTE]30,000? Did you count Mariupol deaths in your estimate? Just add tens of thousands more.
We'll probably never know the exact number of Mariupol deaths because Russians are callously and feverishly building upon the bombed-out sites where thousands of bodies and body fragments are still lying entangled with the debris.
[QUOTE]The takeaway from your first link, which focuses on the death of a Ukrainian civilian combatant near Kyiv, is that war is hell. [/QUOTE]No, not the "death". Call it what it was: cold-blooded KILLINGS of Ukrainian civilians, often whole families. They were NOT combatants. Let's be more precise in our definitions, shell we?
And no! "Hell" is awfully non-specific. What Russia is doing in Ukraine is one special hell, a never-ending string of war crimes and crimes against humanity.
[QUOTE]The takeaway from your second link is that Russia is trying to make Kharkiv unliveable for civilians by bombing. But then the third link kind of negates that. Apparently a good number of the Russian bombs are landing in Russia. In many instances, the Russians don't appear to be targeting civilians. Rather, their weapons aren't accurate.[/QUOTE]First, it's not just Kharkiv. Every village, town or city that stands in their way is obliterated.
Second, while some of their weapons aren't accurate, others are plenty accurate. Gliding bombs are accurate. The KH-101 cruise missiles that they hit the children's hospital with is very accurate. You still can't get it into your head that that bombing was intentional, can you? Trying to find excuses where excuses simply don't exist.
[QUOTE=Beijing4987;2934956]That's right. Putin only occasionally bombs a church, hospital or school full of white orthodox Christians or threatens to use nuclear weapons.[/QUOTE]Gaza is not linked to Ukraine other than that monstrous and bloodthirsty Palestinian raid on Oct 7 (along with Israel's retaliation that followed) became a god's gift to Putin by taking some attention away from his own full-blown war.
In any case, this is a wrong forum to discuss Gaza or other areas of the world. You can always discuss those issues in the Israel or other related forums.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2935185]Gaza is not linked to Ukraine other than that monstrous and bloodthirsty Palestinian raid on Oct 7 (along with Israel's retaliation that followed) became a god's gift to Putin by taking some attention away from his own full-blown war.
In any case, this is a wrong forum to discuss Gaza or other areas of the world. You can always discuss those issues in the Israel or other related forums.[/QUOTE]This was supposed to be a reply to Tiny, not Beijing. Would appreciate some assistance from the mods.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2935185]Gaza is not linked to Ukraine other than that monstrous and bloodthirsty Palestinian raid on Oct 7 (along with Israel's retaliation that followed) became a god's gift to Putin by taking some attention away from his own full-blown war.
In any case, this is a wrong forum to discuss Gaza or other areas of the world. You can always discuss those issues in the Israel or other related forums.[/QUOTE]Come on Xpartan, don't do a Paulie and try to shut down the conversation because you disagree with me. You're better than that.
The neoconservatives have one set of rules for Vladimir Putin and another for Benjamin Netanyahu, George W. Bush, Tony Blair, Barrack Obama, and Donald Trump. They're collectively responsible for many more deaths than Putin.
My point is that the ratio of deaths of civilians to combatants in Ukraine is not out of line with other conflicts where western countries are involved. The ratio in the current conflict in Israel and Gaza may be around 2.4 civilians deaths to one combatant death. An estimate for the Iraq war was 3.4:1, although it would be much higher if you looked at excess deaths instead of casualties directly inflicted by the military and Iraqi resistance. Estimates for Vietnam range from 1:3 to 2:1. In any event, the civilian / combatant death ratio in Ukraine is less than any of those conflicts. It may be around 1:5 or 1:10. I don't believe Russia is trying to kill civilians. Yeah, shit will happen, like My Lai. But they're not engaged in anything like Dresden or Hiroshima.
[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio[/URL]
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2935222]This was supposed to be a reply to Tiny, not Beijing. Would appreciate some assistance from the mods.[/QUOTE]
I presume you mean you'd like the moderators to edit your post, not to censor mine?
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2935181]Every individual in my links is a Putin's OFFICIAL mouthpiece. Just because he doesn't OFFICIALLY have a Ministry of Propaganda like his idol Adolf, doesn't mean that his propagandists are not Russian OFFICIALS. They all are.
The final link I provided is for Putin's own words. Even his so-called "press-secretary" Peskov admitted he said that. Denying something that obvious and verifiable is just silly.
Finally, trying to cover your lack of reasoning skills with rudeness and personal insults never works. It only makes you look bad. If I were your supervisor, I'd fire you on the spot.[/QUOTE]The link you posted alleges Putin said 'Kiev in 2 weeks' if he wanted to way back in 2014, not in 2022. And there is no evidence he did even say that, it has never been proved. Plus, if Putin did want to take Kiev back in 2014, he could have done it easily in 2 weeks because AFU were much, much weaker back in 2014. It was after 2014 that NATO started arming and training AFU. Your dumbass wouldn't know about that. So don't post lies here because they will quickly be debunked by me.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2935183]30,000? Did you count Mariupol deaths in your estimate? Just add tens of thousands more..[/QUOTE]Yes.
Here's a UN estimate for all of Ukraine, 10,582 civilian deaths, with a caveat that real numbers could be higher:
[URL]https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293492/ukraine-war-casualties/[/URL]
Estimates citied in Wikipedia for total civilian deaths, which include Mariupol:
1. 11,000+ killed (confirmed) 24 Feb 2022 to 31 Dec 2023.
11,000 missing 24 Feb 2022 to 30 Nov 2023.
2. 11,284 killed 24 February 2022 to 30 June 2024.
[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War[/URL]
You appear to be correct, that civilian deaths in Mariupol may dwarf those in other places. The United Nations estimate was 1,348 civilians, but "the true death toll was likely thousands higher. " A Human Rights Watch study indicated there were at least 8,034 excess deaths in Mariupol. And yes, there are estimates thrown out by Ukrainian television, the Mariupol mayor and others that deaths may have been in the range of 20,000 to 27,000. One outlier which I seriously doubt is 87,000.
[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Mariupol[/URL]
I don't see how you could realistically get to 45,000 for all of Ukraine, which although tragic, is small compared to combatant deaths. And suspect the real number is less than 30,000.
Painting Putin as Hitler and Russians as bloodthirsty savages is not realistic. It is a way to prolong the war, which is the goal of the neoconservatives. Again, I don't mean you, but rather the military and political elite.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2935183]
No, not the "death". Call it what it was: cold-blooded KILLINGS of Ukrainian civilians, often whole families. They were NOT combatants. Let's be more precise in our definitions, shell we?[/QUOTE]
You're saying the subject of the story was not a civilian combatant? But yes, it's fine to describe his death as a killing. It's fine to say George W. Bush and his successors, including Barrack Obama, were cold blooded killers too.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935331]Come on Xpartan, don't do a Paulie and try to shut down the conversation because you disagree with me. You're better than that. [/QUOTE]Maybe you're better than to cowardly attack someone that left the conversation many months ago, but I don't know. I'm inside riding out a tropical storm and happened to check in here today.
All I've said is that you might do well to spend less time arguing for Putin over the internet. That especially applies if you are on in years where remaining time is more precious. I've also made the point that you are late to the party. Your whataboutisms regarding past US actions were answered ad nauseam starting two years ago by myself and others. I'm not doing it over again for a Johnny come lately that migrated over from the opinions forum. However for the record, I and the ICC disagree with your belief that Russia hasn't been targeting civilians. And since you like Wikipedia so much, here's a couple of links for the Cliff Note's versions. Scroll to the bottom for source citations.
[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_civilians_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine[/URL]
[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court_arrest_warrants_for_Russian_figures[/URL]
That was easy. Didn't take me ten minutes. Wink.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935390]Painting Putin as Hitler and Russians as bloodthirsty savages is not realistic. It is a way to prolong the war, which is the goal of the neoconservatives. Again, I don't mean you, but rather the military and political elite. You're saying the subject of the story was not a civilian combatant? But yes, it's fine to describe his death as a killing. It's fine to say George W. Bush and his successors, including Barrack Obama, were cold blooded killers too.[/QUOTE]Comparing someone like Putin, a cold blooded murderer who murders all his opposition and sometimes slowly, jails journalists, who starts a war with his neighbor that he claims has no right to exist based on a fanciful spin on history, who deports and indoctrinates their children, kills off their civilian populations while hiding the bodies, etc. To post 9/11 US presidents is absurd. And of course it all comes seasoned with the well worn cookie cutter buzz words and "deep state" conspiracy theories, that even those with barely a high school education can parrot online. You're actually a lightweight when it comes to making this brand of arguments. If one wants to just sharpen their iron they could find better.
[URL]https://effectiviology.com/false-equivalence/[/URL]
Nowadays I treat it like if I was seated on a bar stool listening to this from the guy sitting next to me. I go find a different seat. Though I and others have hammered it out thoroughly here in the past. Any here interesting can check the post history of this thread going back to the Spring of 2022.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935331]Come on Xpartan, don't do a Paulie and try to shut down the conversation because you disagree with me. You're better than that.
The neoconservatives have one set of rules for Vladimir Putin and another for Benjamin Netanyahu, George W. Bush, Tony Blair, Barrack Obama, and Donald Trump. They're collectively responsible for many more deaths than Putin. [/QUOTE]How am I trying to shut down the conversation? By pointing out that this is a forum dedicated to Ukraine rather than the last 24 years of the US and Middle East warring history?
If you really -- and I mean, really -- do not understand the difference between Israel's war on Hamas and savage Putin's war against Ukraine, start another thread in the Israel forum and I'll meet you there. Otherwise, it feels like a false analogy fallacy, which, as you probably know, is a favorite Russian propaganda trick designed to dilute a topic by claiming false equivalence between events that have nothing to do with each other except for one word: WAR.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935390]I don't believe Russia is trying to kill civilians. Yeah, shit will happen, like My Lai. [/QUOTE]Here you go: You don't believe! That certainly trumps facts and reason. Why didn't you say so before?
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935390]Yes.
Here's a UN estimate for all of Ukraine, 10,582 civilian deaths, with a caveat that real numbers could be higher:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293492/ukraine-war-casualties/
Estimates citied in Wikipedia for total civilian deaths, which include Mariupol:
1. 11,000+ killed (confirmed) 24 Feb 2022 to 31 Dec 2023.
11,000 missing 24 Feb 2022 to 30 Nov 2023.
2. 11,284 killed 24 February 2022 to 30 June 2024.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War
You appear to be correct, that civilian deaths in Mariupol may dwarf those in other places. The United Nations estimate was 1,348 civilians, but "the true death toll was likely thousands higher. " A Human Rights Watch study indicated there were at least 8,034 excess deaths in Mariupol. And yes, there are estimates thrown out by Ukrainian television, the Mariupol mayor and others that deaths may have been in the range of 20,000 to 27,000. One outlier which I seriously doubt is 87,000. [/QUOTE]Doubt whatever you want. Just do me a little favor. Turn off your Russophilia for 5 fucking minutes and read this:
[URL]https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-erasing-mariupol-499dceae43ed77f2ebfe750ea99b9ad9[/URL]
And if you can spend a little more time, watch 20 Days in Mariupol:
[URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvAyykRvPBo[/URL]
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935390]Painting Putin as Hitler and Russians as bloodthirsty savages is not realistic. It is a way to prolong the war, which is the goal of the neoconservatives. Again, I don't mean you, but rather the military and political elite.[/QUOTE]You're right somewhat. Putin is not Hitler. Hitler wasn't a coward. Hitler wasn't a thief. His Operation Barbarossa was far better thought out than Putin's "strategy" to throw lots of shit in all directions to see what sticks.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935390]You're saying the subject of the story was not a civilian combatant? But yes, it's fine to describe his death as a killing. It's fine to say George W. Bush and his successors, including Barrack Obama, were cold blooded killers too.[/QUOTE]I have no idea what you're talking about. Hundreds of civilians were murdered in Bucha alone. Men, women, children. Sometimes whole families. Did you even read the article beyond the first 3 paragraphs?
Although, I keep forgetting that you don't believe anyway.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2935345]The link you posted alleges Putin said 'Kiev in 2 weeks' if he wanted to way back in 2014, not in 2022. And there is no evidence he did even say that, it has never been proved. Plus, if Putin did want to take Kiev back in 2014, he could have done it easily in 2 weeks because AFU were much, much weaker back in 2014. It was after 2014 that NATO started arming and training AFU. Your dumbass wouldn't know about that. So don't post lies here because they will quickly be debunked by me.[/QUOTE]In my previous post I stated that you were a lousy PROPACONDOM (as your fellow Russians call you guys) because all you do is lie, then double and triple down on your lies; and these are not well-constructed, solid, plausible lies. Your lies are so foolish and ridiculous that a 10-second Google search can reveal them. That's lazy and unprofessional. I thought, you should certainly must do better. Don't your bosses want people to believe them?
I was wrong. Please accept my apologies.
You're not at fault here. You just keep up with Russia's venerable traditions. The thing is, Russia lies every time it gets caught in the act. Russia just doesn't care. When you downed MH17, when you doped your athletes, when you poisoned Navalny, when you poisoned the Scripals in Salisbury and got caught every single time -- what did you guys do? That's right, you kept lying.
Lying no matter what.
I thought it was silly on your part to deny that Putin said if he'd wanted to, he could've taken Kyiv in two weeks.
I mean this quote was all over the world, in all major media, and what do you know -- no protests, no demands for retractions!
Putin's talking lapdog Peskov confirmed that yes, the boss did say that.
Putin himself never claimed he hadn't.
And only you keep holding the last line of defense.
Bravo!
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2935447] when you poisoned Navalny[/QUOTE]Like I said previously, it is so easy to own your dumbass that believes all the lies fed to you by the collective west.
Navalny died of natural causes. Owned, again. Stop embarrassing yourself.
[URL]https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/navalnys-team-says-death-certificate-says-he-died-natural-causes-2024-02-22/[/URL]
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2935447]In my previous post I stated that you were a lousy PROPACONDOM...You're not at fault here...[/QUOTE]Yeah, don't be too hard on the guy -- it's his job. It is a lousy, meaningless, stupid job, but someone is paying him to do it. How dispiriting it must be to have to crank out this futile bullshit; however, it is his sole source of revenue. The real question is why does this forum allow this kind of spam? What a waste of bandwidth.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2935760]Yeah, don't be too hard on the guy -- it's his job. It is a lousy, meaningless, stupid job, but someone is paying him to do it. How dispiriting it must be to have to crank out this futile bullshit; however, it is his sole source of revenue. The real question is why does this forum allow this kind of spam? What a waste of bandwidth.[/QUOTE]You can't debate me. Walk on home, boy.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2935760]Yeah, don't be too hard on the guy -- it's his job. It is a lousy, meaningless, stupid job, but someone is paying him to do it. How dispiriting it must be to have to crank out this futile bullshit; however, it is his sole source of revenue. The real question is why does this forum allow this kind of spam? What a waste of bandwidth.[/QUOTE]Agreed. When he just started out, his fallacies were long-winded, passionate, heated, fiery even. Today he's all snaps, barks and snarls. The pay can't be good.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2935820]You can't debate me. Walk on home, boy.[/QUOTE]"Debate"? It's hardly possible or meaningful in this forum. However, I do have an interest in you as a person. Primarily, where do you live? What city? What are your other sources of revenue? What are your future plans?
As I've written previously, Russia is notorious for the skill and efficacy of their propaganda. Russia's economy is miniscule and yet they punch far above their class. Look at some recent political disasters in the West (e.g., US election of 2016, Brexit, the disinformation surrounding Covid vaccines, the extended hold of US arms to Ukraine) which derive from masterful Russian propaganda. I really admire the effort and the skill. You (meaning Russians) have achieved dramatic results with relatively little effort and resources. California alone has an economy twice as large as Russia's. Three US states (California, Texas and NY) individually have economies larger than Russia's. Imagine if New York had the same kind of organized and skilled propaganda as Russia -- absurd, right?
Why do I ask about your future plans? Ernest Hemingway wrote in "The Sun Also Rises", 'How did you go bankrupt?' "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." Nations fail in the same way. Everything looks solid, then poof! I wonder if you're made any plans against the collapse of the Russian Federation?
As a matter of general interest, how are you being instructed to deal with the Ukrainian incursion in Kursk Oblast?
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2935851]"Debate"? It's hardly possible or meaningful in this forum. However, I do have an interest in you as a person. Primarily, where do you live? What city? What are your other sources of revenue? What are your future plans?
As I've written previously, Russia is notorious for the skill and efficacy of their propaganda. Russia's economy is miniscule and yet they punch far above their class. Look at some recent political disasters in the West (e.g., US election of 2016, Brexit, the disinformation surrounding Covid vaccines, the extended hold of US arms to Ukraine) which derive from masterful Russian propaganda. I really admire the effort and the skill. You (meaning Russians) have achieved dramatic results with relatively little effort and resources. California alone has an economy twice as large as Russia's. Three US states (California, Texas and NY) individually have economies larger than Russia's. Imagine if New York had the same kind of organized and skilled propaganda as Russia -- absurd, right?
Why do I ask about your future plans? Ernest Hemingway wrote in "The Sun Also Rises", 'How did you go bankrupt?' "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." Nations fail in the same way. Everything looks solid, then poof! I wonder if you're made any plans against the collapse of the Russian Federation?
As a matter of general interest, how are you being instructed to deal with the Ukrainian incursion in Kursk Oblast?[/QUOTE]Blood Red was active in the Dubai and other forums years before February, 2022. He's a monger or, as Jackson used to say, "sport fucker," not a Russian agent.
Good to see you're debating substance, even if ad hominem, instead of arguing that I shouldn't post in this thread because I've never been to Ukraine.
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2935400]Maybe you're better than to cowardly attack someone that left the conversation many months ago, but I don't know. I'm inside riding out a tropical storm and happened to check in here today.[/QUOTE]The definition of "cowardly" is not "adjective used to describe someone I disagree with."
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2935400]All I've said is that you might do well to spend less time arguing for Putin over the internet. That especially applies if you are on in years where remaining time is more precious. I've also made the point that you are late to the party. Your whataboutisms regarding past US actions were answered ad nauseam starting two years ago by myself and others. I'm not doing it over again for a Johnny come lately that migrated over from the opinions forum. However for the record, I and the ICC disagree with your belief that Russia hasn't been targeting civilians. And since you like Wikipedia so much, here's a couple of links for the Cliff Note's versions. Scroll to the bottom for source citations.
[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_civilians_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine[/URL][/QUOTE]Your link says "As of 2024, the attacks had resulted in the UN-documented deaths of between 11,000 and estimated 40,000 dead civilians." How is that inconsistent with what I wrote? I don't believe the Ukrainian estimate that "only 3% of all Russian missiles, drones and bombs hit military targets, while 97% hit civilian targets." Throw out all the anecdotes you want, the ratio of deaths of civilians to combatants is lower than in Gaza in 2023/2024, Vietnam, or Iraq.
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2935400][URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court_arrest_warrants_for_Russian_figures[/URL]
That was easy. Didn't take me ten minutes. Wink.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2935439]Comparing someone like Putin, a cold blooded murderer who murders all his opposition and sometimes slowly, jails journalists, who starts a war with his neighbor that he claims has no right to exist based on a fanciful spin on history, who deports and indoctrinates their children, kills off their civilian populations while hiding the bodies, etc. To post 9/11 US presidents is absurd. And of course it all comes seasoned with the well worn cookie cutter buzz words and "deep state" conspiracy theories, that even those with barely a high school education can parrot online. You're actually a lightweight when it comes to making this brand of arguments. If one wants to just sharpen their iron they could find better.
[URL]https://effectiviology.com/false-equivalence/[/URL][/QUOTE]
Again, since Putin was elected president in 2000, a lot more people have died as a result of military and anti-terrorist actions initiated by the USA than by Russia. Should we start putting ex USA Presidents in jail too? Your argument is no, I guess because they're men of fine character. Torture of people captured by the USA in places like Guantanamo and Middle Eastern countries never occurred. No president ever sanctioned the killing of an American by drone in a foreign country. Killing hundreds of thousands with sanctions and disease is perfectly fine. As is occupying a country thousands of miles away where the USA has no strategic interests. If the USA weren't sticking its nose and guns where they don't belong, there wouldn't have been a terrorist problem.
The bigger concern is that painting Putin and other Russians as genocidal mass murders who will someday be subject to justice is no way to end a conflict that's killing hundreds of thousands of people. That may be fine with neoconservative politicians, who want this to go on and on, and with some of the posters in this thread. But it's not helpful for ordinary Ukrainians and Russians. Or the millions of people in Africa, the Middle East and other places who depend on resources and grain from Russia and Ukraine.
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2935439]Nowadays I treat it like if I was seated on a bar stool listening to this from the guy sitting next to me. I go find a different seat. Though I and others have hammered it out thoroughly here in the past. Any here interesting can check the post history of this thread going back to the Spring of 2022.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, well look at what you and others were saying back as far as November, 2022. Since then the lines of control have barely moved, and yet Ukraine was always on the cusp of winning the war. But, but the mass murderers need to be brought to justice! Ukraine can't negotiate! Well, since then hundreds of thousands have died and they'll go on dying until this comes to an end.
In other words, you gentlemen have been wrong about Ukraine's prospects for victory, and you still are.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2935441]How am I trying to shut down the conversation? By pointing out that this is a forum dedicated to Ukraine rather than the last 24 years of the US and Middle East warring history?
If you really -- and I mean, really -- do not understand the difference between Israel's war on Hamas and savage Putin's war against Ukraine, start another thread in the Israel forum and I'll meet you there. Otherwise, it feels like a false analogy fallacy, which, as you probably know, is a favorite Russian propaganda trick designed to dilute a topic by claiming false equivalence between events that have nothing to do with each other except for one word: WAR.[/QUOTE]Ok, we can make comparisons between Russia and Israel and the USA in the Israel thread, but not here. Fair enough.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2935441]Here you go: You don't believe! That certainly trumps facts and reason. Why didn't you say so before?
Doubt whatever you want. Just do me a little favor. Turn off your Russophilia for 5 fucking minutes and read this:
[URL]https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-erasing-mariupol-499dceae43ed77f2ebfe750ea99b9ad9[/URL][/QUOTE]I don't believe over 75,000 civilians died in Mariupol. For the sake of argument, say the AP article is substantively correct. What's your solution? More death and carnage until Ukraine is wiped off the map? Russia's not going let this go unless it can exit in a way that saves face. Short of sending NATO troops into Ukraine, I don't see how this ends the way you appear to think it will. And nobody wants to see the world's largest nuclear powers fighting face-to-face.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2935441]And if you can spend a little more time, watch 20 Days in Mariupol:
[URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvAyykRvPBo[/URL][/QUOTE]That's 1-1/2 hours long. Please ask Paulie to watch this and summarize it. He's got the time, he's retired.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2935441]You're right somewhat. Putin is not Hitler. Hitler wasn't a coward. Hitler wasn't a thief. His Operation Barbarossa was far better thought out than Putin's "strategy" to throw lots of shit in all directions to see what sticks.[/QUOTE]You may wish to consider whether your analogies are wilder than mine. Please see reply to Paulie below. Do you think Putin is going to end this if he thinks he's going to be prosecuted like Germans at Nuremberg? While you and I don't matter, the western politicians and Ukrainians who make similar claims are preventing this conflict from coming to an end.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2935441]I have no idea what you're talking about. Hundreds of civilians were murdered in Bucha alone. Men, women, children. Sometimes whole families. Did you even read the article beyond the first 3 paragraphs?
Although, I keep forgetting that you don't believe anyway.[/QUOTE]I read it twice and that's what I got out of it. I'm not reading it three times.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935940]Blood Red was active in the Dubai and other forums years before February, 2022. He's a monger or, as Jackson used to say, "sport fucker," not a Russian agent.[/QUOTE]So a monger can't be a paid troll working for the Russian government? What does one thing have to do with another?
Aren't you aware that Dubai is a favorite playground for well-to-do Russians? That was always the case, and today 100 times so since they're not welcome almost anywhere else?
The real tell, however, is not Dubai. It's his unquestionable admiration for Russia and adoration for Putin. Normal people don't talk like that. Even Russian "Zetniks" (look it up) can be critical of Putin and his army.
Him? Never!
That's some loyalty, LOL.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935947]I don't believe over 75,000 civilians died in Mariupol. [/QUOTE]Well, like I said I can't help you with "beliefs".
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935940]For the sake of argument, say the AP article is substantively correct. What's your solution? [/QUOTE]Solution? You're changing the subject again. I just reacted to your wacky and laughable statement that Putin goes out of his way to spare civilians.
While in reality he goes out of his way to target them.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935940]You may wish to consider whether your analogies are wilder than mine. Please see reply to Paulie below. Do you think Putin is going to end this if he thinks he's going to be prosecuted like Germans at Nuremberg? While you and I don't matter, the western politicians and Ukrainians who make similar claims are preventing this conflict from coming to an end.[/QUOTE]Putin won't get to be prosecuted, and he knows that. He won't survive the end of his regime. It's going to be a Ceausescu way: Arrested, sentenced, shot by his own henchmen. All in a matter of hours, with "sentencing" being optional (who needs these formalities, after all?
So Putin has a very solid reason to keep waging the war. As long as he can, he lives.
The question is how long he can. The economy is already circling the drain, new recruits are hard to find (despite the mind-blowing bonuses), and they lose over 30,000 troops a month with almost nothing to show for it.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935940]I read it twice and that's what I got out of it. I'm not reading it three times.[/QUOTE]Twice? And you still can't find the passages about civilians murdered by Putin's butchers in cold blood? Did you know that right after the discovery of the "cleansing", Putin awarded them the title of Guards?
Well, if you need help, I can always paste the quotes here. Just ask.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935942]Good to see you're debating substance, even if ad hominem, instead of arguing that I shouldn't post in this thread because I've never been to Ukraine. [/QUOTE]I actually agree with you on one point. These are free for all threads, so the admins can keep the relevant threads on topic and clean. Talk about whatever you want, while mocking you for migrating around these threads going in circles writing essay after essay for months on end pitching the selfsame "deep state" conspiracy theories and whataboutisms / deflections is allowed. In this case, the "give peace a chance" argument by appeasing a shameless murderous dictator whose forwarding a genocide in Ukraine has been made by you dozens of times already. You've seen the legion of responses which haven't changed. I think you are a fool wasting the world's most precious commodity, time, while it's fair to wonder about your mental stability at this point.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935942]Yeah, well look at what you and others were saying back as far as November, 2022. Since then the lines of control have barely moved, and yet Ukraine was always on the cusp of winning the war. But, but the mass murderers need to be brought to justice! Ukraine can't negotiate! Well, since then hundreds of thousands have died and they'll go on dying until this comes to an end. In other words, you gentlemen have been wrong about Ukraine's prospects for victory, and you still are.[/QUOTE]If anyone here said that Ukraine was "on the cusp of winning the war," then find the post, quote it, and respond to it. If you don't, then we can assume it doesn't exist, and that you are paraphrasing for your benefit, ie. Straw man. Ukraine has had some good moments that were mostly defensive in nature, but the counter offensive did stall. Reasons for that have been discussed ad nauseam while some excellent articles were linked.
Ukraine policy is difficult, but appeasement, by rewriting history and minimizing and sugarcoating Russia's atrocities and goals, while promoting an unfavorable peace, which just gives the invaders time to regroup and go again isn't the answer. And your false equivocations with post 9/11 US actions are not only no help but a joke, that make you look like a fool that needs to go find a new country to live in if you are among us.
Your reply to Xpartan.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935947]That's 1-1/2 hours long. Please ask Paulie to watch this and summarize it. He's got the time, he's retired. [/QUOTE]At least you said please, but you are the one with all the time to waste chasing your tail. Compare your post count to mine for 2024 and I'll rest my case on that. The real problem of course is that Mariupol is a real affront to your line of thinking.
Man up, watch it, and respond without misconstruing it or running back to whataboutism mode and "deep state" nonsense. I'm asking a lot, I know.
Thanks for mentioning my retirement. It's amazing, time for pursuit of hobbies, day trips to the beach and exploration of small Latin American towns, and once in a while the south of France.
Dropping the mic.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935940]Blood Red was active in the Dubai and other forums years before February, 2022. He's a monger or, as Jackson used to say, "sport fucker," not a Russian agent.[/QUOTE]Since you claim that Russia hasn't targeted civilians, hasn't deported and indoctrinated Ukrainian children, you might as well stick up for this guy who claims Alexi Navalny "died of natural causes. " No one can say you aren't consistent. And yea, I know these are very serious matters, but you bring it to the point of hilarity. The incompetence displayed is what invites the mockery. Maybe the clown is from Australia I don't know. Are plenty of people there dumb enough to believe that kind of nonsense as well. The US doesn't have the market cornered.
P.S. Dropping Jackson's name as an aside doesn't help you.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2935331] I don't believe Russia is trying to kill civilians.[/QUOTE]Do you now see why your aren't worthy of a serious discussion? Mariupol? Bucha? Etc, too bad. Too bad all these Ukrainian children have been deported and brainwashed. Too bad the ICC is picking on little Vlad. Too bad a young, healthy Navalny happened to get poisoned then soon die "of natural causes" in Siberia, after a long list of similar circumstances with other opponents. Poor pitiful Russia. "Give peace a chance. " All you deserve is mockery, then come whining when you get it. I have as much sympathy for you as I do Russia.
Dear Xpartan and Paulie "Ad Hominem" 97,
I do not believe you are mentally-unstable fools, as Paulie describes me. Rather, you're sadly misguided by the main stream media, including Fox News and the Wall Street Journal, and your neoconservative instincts. The truth lies somewhere between what you believe and what Blood Red says. I'd put a higher probability on the war ending the way he says it will rather than the way you say Xpartan, although both are pretty damn unlikely.
Blood Red knows more about the former Soviet republics than anyone here.
Your friend,
Tiny
Dear Tiny,
Thanks for the 100th helping of RF propaganda and otherwise sympathies. And thanks to them for disseminating it to the world, not only through their people but various online influencers, that take up the mantle and declare it facts and news. Since I'm re-invigorating my hobbies in retirement, I plan to tune into Radio Havana Cuba tonight over shortwave for updates on Venezuela. They after all, like Moscow, have a long history of getting out the real story. Your inspiration has been invaluable.
Your friend,
Paulie.
P.S. By extension I want to thank the many dentally challenged at Trump rallies that pass along not only this, but varieties of other truths they are privy to, not only though the grapevine but through their social media accounts and other online "sources" that specialize in truth. These, who are always quick to remind us we are reading in the wrong places are the real heroes here.
Seems like the Kiev regime is getting more and more desperate with the incursion into Kursk. As they say, desperate people do desperate things, and Ukraine is desperate to say the least at this point in time.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2935851]"Debate"? It's hardly possible or meaningful in this forum. However, I do have an interest in you as a person. Primarily, where do you live? What city? What are your other sources of revenue? What are your future plans?
As I've written previously, Russia is notorious for the skill and efficacy of their propaganda. Russia's economy is miniscule and yet they punch far above their class. Look at some recent political disasters in the West (e.g., US election of 2016, Brexit, the disinformation surrounding Covid vaccines, the extended hold of US arms to Ukraine) which derive from masterful Russian propaganda. I really admire the effort and the skill. You (meaning Russians) have achieved dramatic results with relatively little effort and resources. California alone has an economy twice as large as Russia's. Three US states (California, Texas and NY) individually have economies larger than Russia's. Imagine if New York had the same kind of organized and skilled propaganda as Russia -- absurd, right?
Why do I ask about your future plans? Ernest Hemingway wrote in "The Sun Also Rises", 'How did you go bankrupt?' "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." Nations fail in the same way. Everything looks solid, then poof! I wonder if you're made any plans against the collapse of the Russian Federation?
As a matter of general interest, how are you being instructed to deal with the Ukrainian incursion in Kursk Oblast?[/QUOTE]I currently reside in Dubai. I'm an electrical engineer from the you. S by degree. My future plans are to keep spreading the truth. The Kursk incursion will have no impact on the final outcome of this war, which is a Russian victory. Write that down. Have a nice day.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2936344]I currently reside in Dubai. [/QUOTE]Might not be a lie.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2936344]I'm an electrical engineer [/QUOTE]Might not be a lie.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2936344]from the US[/QUOTE]Total lie.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2936344]My future plans are to keep spreading the truth. [/QUOTE]Great comedy here!
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2936344]The Kursk incursion will have no impact on the final outcome of this war[/QUOTE]Right, because Ukrainians are "desperate", LOL.
[B]Putins Face Betrays Russian Panic Over Ukrainian Invasion Shock[/B]
[URL]https://www.thedailybeast.com/putins-face-betrays-russian-panic-over-ukrainian-invasion-shock[/URL]
[B]Video shows bodies on burnt-out Russian trucks in Kursk region as Ukrainian cross-border assaults rage[/B]
[URL]https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/09/europe/russia-lipetsk-kursk-ukraine-zelensky-intl/index.html[/URL]
[B]Panic among residents in Kursk, villages are being emptied, thousands of residents are evacuated[/B]
[URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDC-Yn-J59U[/URL]
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2936344]a Russian victory. Write that down. Have a nice day.[/QUOTE]Pure fantasy. The fate of Russia will be decided by the Russians, but the heroic Ukrainian resistance is going to give it a crucial nudge.
The Second Russian Civil War is coming.
[QUOTE]God save us from seeing a Russian revolt, senseless and merciless.[/QUOTE]A. Pushkin.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2936344]I currently reside in Dubai. I'm an electrical engineer from the you. S by degree. My future plans are to keep spreading the truth. The Kursk incursion will have no impact on the final outcome of this war, which is a Russian victory. Write that down. Have a nice day.[/QUOTE]Are you a U.S. citizen? If so, thank goodness you weren't around in the 1950's. If you'd gotten caught saying positive things about the Soviet Union, you might have been hauled before McCarthy's House Un-American Activities Committee. Or, if some of our posters' wild ideas about your identity were true, strapped to an electric chair like Ethel Rosenberg. Ethel's execution wasn't a pretty sight. She wouldn't die. They had to shock her two more times after the first try to kill her. At the end, smoke rose from her head.
Ethel was convicted by perjured testimony. She may have been innocent, and certainly her alleged crimes didn't justify the death penalty. Offered a deal by prosecutors, she said, "By asking us to repudiate the truth of our innocence, the Government admits its own doubts concerning our guilt. Our respect for truth, conscience and human dignity is not for sale. Justice is not some bauble to be sold to the highest bidder. " She left behind two young boys.
In the end, she was a stronger defender of American values than Joseph McCarthy or Roy Cohn, and many present-day rabid anti-Russian neoconservative politicians.
This article is dated but shows what I think is happening.
[URL]https://www.newsweek.com/2022/08/12/putin-targeting-civilians-ukraine-what-evidence-shows-1729463.html[/URL]
The Russians aren't intentionally targeting civilians with bombs and artillery. There actually are military targets near where the bombs hit. It's just that their missiles, artillery and bombs aren't accurate. Russia doesn't help its case in certain instances, like the excuse for the 22 civilians killed in an apartment building in Serhiivka. Russia claimed the Ukrainians staged the incident, when in reality the Russians were targeting an ammunition depot two miles away. If they'd fessed up, they would have looked incompetent.
In at least one case, a hospital in Vuhledar, the Ukrainians probably accidentally launched the missile that caused the deaths and blamed it on Russia.
So what about Bucha? That was a travesty. But certainly it's not unique. The USA has committed many war crimes, including My Lai which was similar in size to Bucha. I don't see how you can justify prosecuting Putin for war crimes in Ukraine if you're going to let Lyndon Baines Johnson and George W. Bush off scot free.
I'll withhold comment on Mariupol until I watch Xpartan's hour-and-a-half long video. Which may be never.
[QUOTE=Paulie97;2936200]
P.S. By extension I want to thank the many dentally challenged at Trump rallies that pass along not only this, but varieties of other truths they are privy to, not only though the grapevine but through their social media accounts and other online "sources" that specialize in truth. These, who are always quick to remind us we are reading in the wrong places are the real heroes here.[/QUOTE]
Paulie, Please see reply in American Politics thread
I don't know how military experts feel about the last week's events, but I personally salute Russia and its mighty leader for their generosity. I mean, to yield 1,000 square kilometers in a week and provide AFU with a thousand POWs for the Ukraine's "Exchange Fund" -- one has to be a truly benevolent fella with a big, throbbing heart. Bottomless even.
This good-will gesture goes way beyond multiple Russian retreats of 2022, especially since Russia's sacred land hasn't seen foreign invaders in the last 80 years.
Once again: kudos!
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2936634]In at least one case, a hospital in Vuhledar, the Ukrainians probably accidentally launched the missile that caused the deaths and blamed it on Russia.[/QUOTE]Not true, show the evidence. It was the Russians.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2936634]So what about Bucha? That was a travesty. But certainly it's not unique. The USA has ... blah blah USA blah blah blah USA[/QUOTE]Classic Russian misdirection. This is about the war crimes Russia is doing. Want to talk about USA, go to the USA forums.
The Russian war crimes are horrific, and says everything about the mentality of the people. This is why Ukraine will win, since living under those monsters is not an option.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2936843]Not true, show the evidence. It was the Russians.[/QUOTE]It's in the link. I'll quote here. Please note the writer, William M. Arkin, is pro-Ukrainian. He's penned pieces like "Moscow's Bloody March to Defeat," "As Ukraine Gets Closer to Victory, Nuclear War Gets Closer Too," "For Vladimir Putin, This is the Beginning of the End", "How Putin Botched the Ukraine War and Put Russia's Military Might at Risk," and "Yes, Ukraine Will Win the War. ".
He wrote those and a number of other similar articles in 2022 and early 2023, before it became obvious that this was turning into a bloody stalemate that Ukraine wasn't going to win.
Here's the excerpt:
[B]A hospital in Vuhledar[/B]
Since Russia invaded Ukraine in February, human rights monitors have been scrupulous in documenting Russian conduct. On the first day of attacks, for example, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch accused Russia of damaging a hospital in Vuhledar (aka Ugledar), a coal mining town 50 miles north of Mariupol in southeastern Ukraine.
At about 10:30 in the morning on February 24, a short-range Tochka missile (NATO SS-21 Scarab) landed in front of the Central City Hospital, killing four and injuring 10 civilians. [b]Human Rights Watch focused on the missile's cluster bomb warhead with 50 submunitions, pointing out the international convention banning the use of such weapons.[/b]
Establishing the facts in this and other cases is a meticulous process: taking witness testimony, documenting who was involved, establishing the weapons used, the damage, and deaths and injuries to civilians. In this case, Human Rights Watch interviewed workers at the hospital and collected photographic evidence. A photo of the nose cone of the missile, widely posted on social media, was the basis for determining the type of weapon used.
Amnesty International said the Russian ballistic missile strike on the hospital was "verified" by its Evidence Lab. "The Russian military has shown a blatant disregard for civilian lives by using ballistic missiles and other explosive weapons with wide area effects in densely populated areas," said Agns Callamard, the organization's Secretary General. "Some of these attacks may be war crimes. ".
[B]But there is a major problem with that narrative. Tochka is owned by both Russia and Ukraine, and though observers seem content to assume that Russia attacked Vuhledar, U.S. intelligence says that Russia probably did not fire a Tochka missile until March 6 about a week into the war.
Ukraine, on the other hand, is known to have fired Tochka missiles on the first day against a target in Kirovske in occupied Donetsk. Over the next 72 hours, Ukraine fired more Tochkas at Russian forces and against two airbases located in Russia itself, one at Millerovo and the other at Taganrog. On March 1, Ukraine also hit a Russian naval ship docked in Berdiansk harbor with a Tochka missile.
That photo of the nose cone, the one that identified the weapon that landed in Vuhledar on February 24? There is no photographic evidence that places it in Vuhledar, nor is there anything that proves that it is Russian.[/B]
The town of Vuhledar, in context, also proves to be an unlikely target. The Ukraine General Staff did not report the town or its surroundings attacked until March 13, raising the question whether it was an intended Russian target on February 24, when all of Russia's long-range attacks were highly choreographed.
On March 11, the independent investigative collective Bellingcat stated that Vuhledar was the only "confirmed example of this particular cluster munition type being used" in Ukraine, further raising questions regarding who fired the missile that landed there. [B]In other words, it was most likely a Ukrainian Tochka missile fired somewhere to the east, which failed in flight and landed in Vuhledar, causing the damage and deaths.[/B].
[url]https://www.newsweek.com/2022/08/12/putin-targeting-civilians-ukraine-what-evidence-shows-1729463.html[/url]
[QUOTE=VinDici;2936843]Classic Russian misdirection. This is about the war crimes Russia is doing. Want to talk about USA, go to the USA forums.
The Russian war crimes are horrific, and says everything about the mentality of the people. This is why Ukraine will win, since living under those monsters is not an option.[/QUOTE]You asked me to show the evidence. And I did. Well then, instead of trying to shut down the debate, please explain why Putin should be tried for war crimes in Ukraine, while American presidents Lyndon B Johnson and George W. Bush should not have been, in Vietnam and the Middle East, respectively. Feel free to reply in the American Politics thread if you wish, like I did for Paulie, although I don't understand why you gentlemen have a problem with analogies to other countries in this thread.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2936889]
You asked me to show the evidence. And I did. Well then, instead of trying to shut down the debate, please explain why Putin should be tried for war crimes in Ukraine, while American presidents Lyndon B Johnson and George W. Bush should not have been, in Vietnam and the Middle East, respectively. Feel free to reply in the American Politics thread if you wish, like I did for Paulie, although I don't understand why you gentlemen have a problem with analogies to other countries in this thread.[/QUOTE]I already explained in American Politics that the Vietnam and Iraq wars were nothing like the Ukraine war. They weren't criminal, unprovoked wars.
The Ukraine war is.
But anyway, why don't we take your brilliant reasoning even further?
In the 1863 Bear River massacre, the US Army murdered between 300-400 Native Americans, with 100 women and children among them. Yet, Abraham Lincoln was never indicted and prosecuted for this crime. Thus, I propose a posthumous exoneration of all so-called Nazi war criminals convicted after 1945 for crimes against humanity. Because, following your logic, if Lincoln avoided justice for mass murder that occurred on his watch, then [B]war crimes and crimes against humanity simply don't exist.[/B].
Or am I getting it all wrong and you only aim to protect war criminals you like?
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2936906]I already explained in American Politics that the Vietnam and Iraq wars were nothing like the Ukraine war. They weren't criminal, unprovoked wars.
The Ukraine war is.
[/QUOTE]You are one of the dumbest people I have come across on the internet. A million people died in the Iraq war. The country was destroyed. It was all done under the pretext of Iraq supposedly having WMD, which was proven to be a complete lie. The Iraq war was one of the biggest crimes of the last quarter of a century. The Ukraine war started in 2014. If you really want to go back in history as to when it really started, it was in 2008 when the chimp G. W Bush invited Ukraine to join NATO in 2008. Ukraine / Georgia joining NATO were Russian read lines and that's what NATO did, it provoked a needless war. Read William Burns' famous memo titled no means no. I feel bad for wasting my time and typing this post to a dumbshit like you. But others will read it so that's why I made the effort.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2937013] If you really want to go back in history as to when it really started, it was in 2008 when the chimp G. W Bush invited Ukraine to join NATO in 2008. Ukraine / Georgia joining NATO were Russian read lines and that's what NATO did, it provoked a needless war. [/QUOTE]Good joke. Germany and France strictly opposed this Amercan idea. And, probably you do not know, it needs all member states of NATO to agree to a new member.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2937013]You are one of the dumbest people I have come across on the internet. A million people died in the Iraq war. The country was destroyed. It was all done under the pretext of Iraq supposedly having WMD, which was proven to be a complete lie. The Iraq war was one of the biggest crimes of the last quarter of a century. The Ukraine war started in 2014. If you really want to go back in history as to when it really started, it was in 2008 when the chimp G. W Bush invited Ukraine to join NATO in 2008. Ukraine / Georgia joining NATO were Russian read lines and that's what NATO did, it provoked a needless war. Read William Burns' famous memo titled no means no. I feel bad for wasting my time and typing this post to a dumbshit like you. But others will read it so that's why I made the effort.[/QUOTE]Excellent short summary of the history of the Russian grievances Blood Red. I agree with you about Iraq, although I don't know whether to classify it as one of the biggest crimes or one of the biggest fuckups of the last quarter century.
I disagree with you on two points. Xpartan may be gullible and naive, but he's not dumb. Secondly, I believe you can trace the origins of the conflict back farther, to assurances by James Baker, Helmut Kohl, George H. W. Bush, Robert Gates, Margaret Thatcher, John Major, Francois Mitterand and others. See what Gorbachev had to say:
"Kohl, US Secretary of State James Baker and others assured me that NATO would not move an inch east. The Americans didn't stick to that, and the Germans didn't care. Maybe they even rubbed their hands at how well the Russians were ripped off. What did it bring? It's just that the Russians no longer trust Western promises."
[URL]https://www.bild.de/politik/2009/bild-medienpreis/die-deutschen-waren-nicht-aufzuhalten-7864098.bild.html[/URL] (You need to run this through Google Translate).
"The Americans promised that Nato wouldn't move beyond the boundaries of Germany after the Cold War but now half of central and eastern Europe are members, so what happened to their promises? It shows they cannot be trusted "
[URL]https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-Cold-War.html[/URL]
Here's a more detailed discussion:
[URL]https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early[/URL]
Since I'm as verbose as you are succinct, I'll provide excerpts here from a good article about William Burns, the current CIA director, that expands on what you wrote.
"It is hard to find Burns's finger-prints on Biden's Russia policy or on the conduct of NATO's war in Ukraine, where USA Policy has run headlong into precisely the dangers Burns warned his government about, in cables from Moscow spanning more than a decade. We cannot know what Burns tells the president behind closed doors. But he has not publicly called for peace talks, as Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Mark Milley has done, although to do so would be highly unusual for a CIA director.
In the current environment of rigid pro-war, anti-Russian orthodoxy, if Bill Burns publicly voiced some of the concerns he expressed earlier in his career, he might be ostracized, or even fired, as a Putin apologist. But his dire warnings about the consequences of inviting Ukraine to join NATO have been quietly tucked in his back pocket, as he condemns Russia as the sole author of the catastrophic war in Ukraine, without mentioning the vital context that he has so vividly explained over the past 30 years.
[b]In his memoir The Back Channel, published in 2019, Burns confirmed that, in 1990, Secretary of State James Baker had indeed assured Mikhail Gorbachev that there would be no expansion of the NATO alliance or forces "one inch to the east" of the borders of a reunified Germany. Burns wrote that, even though the pledge was never formalized and was made before the breakup of the Soviet Union, the Russians took Baker at his word and felt betrayed by NATO enlargement in the years that followed.[/b]
In the current environment of rigid pro-war, anti-Russian orthodoxy, if Bill Burns publicly voiced some of the concerns he expressed earlier in his career, he might be ostracized, or even fired, as a Putin apologist.
[b]When he was political officer at the USA Embassy in Moscow in 1995, Burns reported that "hostility to early NATO expansion is almost universally felt across the domestic political spectrum here. " When in the late 1990's President Bill Clinton's administration moved to bring Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic into NATO, Burns called the decision premature at best, and needlessly provocative at worst. "As Russians stewed in their grievance and sense of disadvantage, a gathering storm of 'stab in the back' theories slowly swirled, leaving a mark on Russia's relations with the West that would linger for decades," he wrote.[/b]
After serving various posts in the Middle East, including ambassador to Jordan, in 2005 Burns finally got the job he had been eyeing for years: USA Ambassador to Russia. From thorny trade issues to the conflict in Kosovo and missile defense disputes, he had his hands full. But the issue of NATO expansion was a source of constant friction.
[b]It came to a head in 2008, when officials in the Bush administration were pushing to extend a NATO invitation to Ukraine and Georgia at the Bucharest NATO Summit. Burns tried to head it off. Two months before the summit, he penned a no-holds-barred email to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, parts of which he quoted in his book.
"Ukrainian entry into NATO is the brightest of all redlines for the Russian elite (not just Putin). In more than two and a half years of conversations with key Russian players, from knuckle-draggers in the dark recesses of the Kremlin to Putin's sharpest liberal critics, I have yet to find anyone who views Ukraine in NATO as anything other than a direct challenge to Russian interests," Burns wrote. "At this stage, a MAP (Membership Action Plan) offer would be seen not as a technical step along a long road toward membership, but as throwing down the strategic gauntlet. Russia will respond. Russian-Ukrainian relations will go into a deep freeze. It will create fertile soil for Russian meddling in Crimea and eastern Ukraine.".[/b]
In addition to this personal email, he wrote a meticulous 12-point official cable to Secretary Rice and Defense Secretary Robert Gates, which only came to light thanks to a WikiLeaks diplomatic cable dump in 2010.
Dated February 1, 2008, the memo's subject line, all caps, could not have been more clear:[b] NYET MEANS NYET: RUSSIA'S NATO ENLARGEMENT REDLINES.[/b]
[b]In no uncertain terms, Burns conveyed the intense opposition from Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov and other senior officials, stressing that Russia would view further NATO eastward expansion as a potential military threat. He said that NATO enlargement, particularly to Ukraine, was "an emotional and neuralgic" issue but also a strategic policy issue.[/b]
"Not only does Russia perceive encirclement and efforts to undermine Russia's influence in the region, but it also fears unpredictable and uncontrolled consequences which would seriously affect Russian security interests. Experts tell us that Russia is particularly worried that the strong divisions in Ukraine over NATO membership, with much of the ethnic-Russian community against membership, could lead to a major split, involving violence or at worst, civil war. In that eventuality, Russia would have to decide whether to intervene a decision Russia does not want to have to face. ".
Six years later, the USA -supported Maidan uprising provided the final trigger for the civil war that Russian experts had predicted.
Burns quoted Lavrov as saying that, while countries were free to make their own decisions about their security and which political-military structures to join, they needed to keep in mind the impact on their neighbors, and that Russia and Ukraine were bound by bilateral obligations set forth in the 1997 Treaty on Friendship, Cooperation and Partnership, in which both parties undertook to "refrain from participation in or support of any actions capable of prejudicing the security of the other side. ".
Burns said a Ukrainian move toward the Western sphere would hurt defense industry cooperation between Russia and Ukraine, including a number of factories where Russian weapons were made, and would have a negative impact on the thousands of Ukrainians living and working in Russia and vice versa. Burns quoted Aleksandr Konovalov, Director of the Institute for Strategic Assessment, predicting that this would become "a boiling cauldron of anger and resentment among the local population. ".
Russian officials told Burns that NATO expansion would have repercussions throughout the region and into Central and Western Europe, and could even cause Russia to revisit its arms control agreements with the West.
[b]In a rare personal meeting Burns had with Putin just before leaving his post as ambassador in 2008, Putin warned him that "no Russian leader could stand idly by in the face of steps toward NATO membership for Ukraine. That would be a hostile act toward Russia. We would do all in our power to prevent it. "[/b]
[b]Despite all these warnings, the Bush administration plowed ahead at the 2008 Summit in Bucharest. Given objections from several key European countries, no date for membership was set, but NATO issued a provocative statement, saying "we agreed today that Ukraine and Georgia will become members of NATO. ".
Burns was not happy. "In many ways, Bucharest left us with the worst of both worldsindulging the Ukrainians and Georgians in hopes of NATO membership on which we were unlikely to deliver, while reinforcing Putin's sense that we were determined to pursue a course he saw as an existential threat," he wrote.[/b]
While Ukraine still has hopes to formally enter NATO, Ukraine's former defense minister Oleksii Reznikov says that[b] Ukraine has already become a de facto member of the NATO alliance that receives NATO weapons, NATO training and all-round military and intelligence cooperation.[/b] The intelligence sharing is directed by the CIA chief himself, who has been shuttling back and forth to meet with his counterpart in Ukraine.
[b]A much better use of Burns's expertise would be to shuttle back and forth to Moscow to help negotiate an end to this brutal and unwinnable war. Would that make him a Putin apologist, or a candidate for the Nobel Peace Prize? What do you think?[/b]
[URL]https://www.commondreams.org/opinion/cia-ukraine-war[/URL]
Well, I'll answer the question. That would make him a candidate for the Nobel Peace Prize.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2936906]I already explained in American Politics that the Vietnam and Iraq wars were nothing like the Ukraine war. They weren't criminal, unprovoked wars.
The Ukraine war is.
But anyway, why don't we take your brilliant reasoning even further?
In the 1863 Bear River massacre, the US Army murdered between 300-400 Native Americans, with 100 women and children among them. Yet, Abraham Lincoln was never indicted and prosecuted for this crime. Thus, I propose a posthumous exoneration of all so-called Nazi war criminals convicted after 1945 for crimes against humanity. Because, following your logic, if Lincoln avoided justice for mass murder that occurred on his watch, then [B]war crimes and crimes against humanity simply don't exist.[/B].
Or am I getting it all wrong and you only aim to protect war criminals you like?[/QUOTE]By your logic, yes, Lincoln should have been prosecuted for war crimes. The Bear River Massacre sounds a lot like Bucha. Maybe members of the American and Russian military deserved prosecution for both, but I doubt leadership had jack to do with planning either. Undoubtedly Sherman was responsible for many civilian deaths while he was razing Georgia and other southern states. You could argue that Russian commanders who didn't do enough to enable civilians to leave Mariupol were responsible for deaths too. But does all that reflect back to Lincoln and Putin? I don't think so.
Your other point is about the justness of wars. As you put it, criminal, unprovoked wars. Well, as Blood Red correctly says, Iraq qualifies on those scores better than Ukraine. Russia believed it did have justification -- see my post just below too.
As to your proposal to exonerate Nazi war criminals, I don't see how you could have done that back in the 1960s or whenever, since the ones involved in the death camps were executed. Painting Russians as subhuman Nazi murderers is not conducive to ending this war. That's not to criticize you, but rather the politicians and other neoconservative members of western governments who say that and who want to see this bloodshed go on and on.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2937077]By your logic, yes, Lincoln should have been prosecuted for war crimes. The Bear River Massacre sounds a lot like Bucha. Maybe members of the American and Russian military deserved prosecution for both, but I doubt leadership had jack to do with planning either. Undoubtedly Sherman was responsible for many civilian deaths while he was razing Georgia and other southern states. You could argue that Russian commanders who didn't do enough to enable civilians to leave Mariupol were responsible for deaths too. But does all that reflect back to Lincoln and Putin? I don't think so.
Your other point is about the justness of wars. As you put it, criminal, unprovoked wars. Well, as Blood Red correctly says, Iraq qualifies on those scores better than Ukraine. Russia believed it did have justification -- see my post just below too.
As to your proposal to exonerate Nazi war criminals, I don't see how you could have done that back in the 1960s or whenever, since the ones involved in the death camps were executed. Painting Russians as subhuman Nazi murderers is not conducive to ending this war. That's not to criticize you, but rather the politicians and other neoconservative members of western governments who say that and who want to see this bloodshed go on and on.[/QUOTE]What a bunch of hogwash!
1. After the horrors of Bucha were discovered, Putin gave the brigade responsible the honorary title of "Guards". The US jurisprudence would most likely classify it as an accessory after the fact.
2. Russian commanders not only "didn't do enough" -- they would bomb and shell civilians trying to flee Mariupol.
3. Just stop! My "offer to exonerate Nazi war criminals" was sarcastic, because [B]if a clear-cut war criminal like Putin shouldn't be prosecuted then war crimes don't exist anymore[/B].
4. I already proved using reliable sources that neither Vietnam nor Iraq war was criminal. They might've had disastrous consequences, but they were legal. Find my post here or in American Politics by making a simple search. I'm not playing a merry-go-round with you.
Putin's war is 100% criminal, no matter how your Russophile self is trying to paint it.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2937070]Excellent short summary of the history of the Russian grievances Blood Red. [/QUOTE]That's beautiful. Now go ahead and kiss him.
Look, I don't give a fuck whether there are 10,100 or 1,000 fake grievances the Kremlin butcher might use to justify this land grab. No one has ever given Russia any guarantees, oral or in writing, that Nato wouldn't move east.
And not just guarantees. There were no promises, no high-fives, no gentlemen agreements, no "understanding" that Nato wouldn't move east.
It has never fucking happened. I don't give a shit what Burns says. It's a lie, a myth, a nothing-sandwich.
And you know what -- I don't believe that you're a moron or gullible. Unfortunately, it can only mean that you're dishonest.
If you found THAT Gorby interview, then you've found the other two, in which he clearly states that no guarantees have been ever made. The links to those are also provided in that Wikipedia page you used for your research. Gorby was a political animal. He said a lot of things contradicting each other.
[QUOTE][b]Gorbachev sees no breach of promise in NATOs eastward expansion
Was NATO's eastward expansion ruled out in the Two Plus Four talks? No, says former Soviet leader Gorbachev. This is a myth. November 9, 2014[/b]
Former Soviet head of state and party leader Mikhail Gorbachev has contradicted the claim that he was promised that NATO would not expand eastwards during talks on German unification. This was not an issue during the negotiations in 1990, Gorbachev told the heute-journal on ZDF . He added: "The Warsaw Pact still existed. The question did not even arise at the time."
[b]The Two Plus Four Treaty of 1990 was about the territory of the GDR[/b], said Gorbachev. When asked whether it was a myth that he had been deceived by the West, Gorbachev replied: "Yes, that is indeed a myth. The press had a hand in it."[/QUOTE]Indeed, The Warsaw Pact (Soviet answer to Nato) still existed in 1989. It would've made zero sense to even discuss Nato expansion at the time.
If you were trying to discover the truth rather than prove the point, you'd mention it at least.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2937013]You are one of the dumbest people I have come across on the internet. [/QUOTE]Hey Igor, what's up? You've been awfully quiet lately. Still waiting for a metodichka, huh?
[URL]https://ceres.georgetown.edu/research/student-projects/russias-information-war-at-home-what-are-these-metodichki[/URL]
Let me help.
Kyiv now controls 74 settlements and over 1,000 sq. Kilometers in Kursk region while Putin's meat grinder is spinning nonstop.
Category Change 7 the 14 the 30 the Total.
Personnel +1240 1147.1 1162.9 1137.0 658.3.
[URL]https://www.reddit.com/r/RussianLosses/comments/1ersxh9/estimated_russian_losses_from_24022022_to/[/URL]
[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2937046]Good joke. Germany and France strictly opposed this Amercan idea. And, probably you do not know, it needs all member states of NATO to agree to a new member.[/QUOTE]I do know that and yes you are right about Germany and France being opposed to the idea. You have to understand that America controls NATO. They are the ones that call the shots. The rest of the Euros just fall in line like puppets. I said G. W Bush invited Ukraine to join NATO in 2008. That's what started this whole mess. Then the USA was behind the coup in Ukraine in 2014 that removed the democratically elected President. That was the last straw and Putin acted. He didn't want NATO in Crimea and control the black sea, hence he seized Crimea with no bloodshed as all the people there were Russian speakers anyways and it had always been historically Russian. Then the war in the Donbas started and that is when the USA aka NATO started arming and training AFU. Putin laid out his conditions for peace and to avoid war in 2022 just before the SMO started. It would have prevented this savage, needless war. But this is a war USA and NATO wanted, to make Russia bleed. The people of Ukraine were cannon fodder. The west does not give a shit about Ukraine. You will see how they abandon it, just like they abandoned Afghanistan.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2937070]Excellent short summary of the history of the Russian grievances Blood Red. I agree with you about Iraq, although I don't know whether to classify it as one of the biggest crimes or one of the biggest fuckups of the last quarter century.
I disagree with you on two points. Xpartan may be gullible and naive, but he's not dumb. Secondly, I believe you can trace the origins of the conflict back farther, to assurances by James Baker, Helmut Kohl, George H. W. Bush, Robert Gates, Margaret Thatcher, John Major, Francois Mitterand and others. See what Gorbachev had to say:
"Kohl, US Secretary of State James Baker and others assured me that NATO would not move an inch east. The Americans didn't stick to that, and the Germans didn't care. Maybe they even rubbed their hands at how well the Russians were ripped off. What did it bring? It's just that the Russians no longer trust Western promises."
[URL]https://www.bild.de/politik/2009/bild-medienpreis/die-deutschen-waren-nicht-aufzuhalten-7864098.bild.html[/URL] (You need to run this through Google Translate).
"The Americans promised that Nato wouldn't move beyond the boundaries of Germany after the Cold War but now half of central and eastern Europe are members, so what happened to their promises? It shows they cannot be trusted "
[/QUOTE]We will have to agree to disagree on Xpartan having an IQ of greater than 22 I guess LOL.
But yes, like you have pointed out, this war was provoked deliberately by NATO, despite the warnings by Russia and despite the promises made way back when the USSR was disintegrating. If you really want to know who started the whole NATO expansion, it was Bill Clinton in the 1990's, despite a lot of opposition from many Americans and Europeans.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2937070]
While Ukraine still has hopes to formally enter NATO, Ukraine's former defense minister Oleksii Reznikov says that[b] Ukraine has already become a de facto member of the NATO alliance that receives NATO weapons, NATO training and all-round military and intelligence cooperation.[/b] The intelligence sharing is directed by the CIA chief himself, who has been shuttling back and forth to meet with his counterpart in Ukraine.
[b]A much better use of Burns's expertise would be to shuttle back and forth to Moscow to help negotiate an end to this brutal and unwinnable war. Would that make him a Putin apologist, or a candidate for the Nobel Peace Prize? What do you think?[/b]
[URL]https://www.commondreams.org/opinion/cia-ukraine-war[/URL]
Well, I'll answer the question. That would make him a candidate for the Nobel Peace Prize.[/QUOTE]Ukraine will NEVER join NATO. Write this down. The collective west doesn't want Ukraine in NATO and they will never agree to Ukraine joining NATO. So what was the point of this needless savage war? To make Russia bleed. Who cares that Ukraine is destroyed, their country facing a demographic death, as long as the MIC thrives, Russia gets weakened (in their mind) and as long as it is Ukrainians dying and not Americans and Euros? I swear, these people are pure evil.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2937186]What a bunch of hogwash!
1. After the horrors of Bucha were discovered, Putin gave the brigade responsible the honorary title of "Guards". The US jurisprudence would most likely classify it as an accessory after the fact.
2. Russian commanders not only "didn't do enough" -- they would bomb and shell civilians trying to flee Mariupol.[/QUOTE]I didn't know that. If true, and I believe "1" is, it shows poor judgement on the part of Putin and some Russian commanders. It isn't an excuse however to keep fighting while many more die. All sides should be working to stop the madness.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2937186]3. Just stop! My "offer to exonerate Nazi war criminals" was sarcastic, because [B]if a clear-cut war criminal like Putin shouldn't be prosecuted then war crimes don't exist anymore[/B].[/QUOTE]How do you think that's going to happen? Putin's approval rating in Russia is off the charts high. Russia's resources and manpower to pursue this war far exceed Ukraine's. At the risk of being repetitive, Russia has the largest nuclear arsenal in the world. Your belief that Putin's going to come to the same end as Ceausecu or will be prosecuted for war crimes is a pipe dream. If that's the purpose of this war, to bring Putin to justice, the western politicians have lost their minds.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2937186]4. I already proved using reliable sources that neither Vietnam nor Iraq war was criminal. [/QUOTE]Sure you have.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2937186]Look, I don't give a fuck whether there are 10,100 or 1,000 fake grievances the Kremlin butcher might use to justify this land grab. No one has ever given Russia any guarantees, oral or in writing, that Nato wouldn't move east.
And not just guarantees. There were no promises, no high-fives, no gentlemen agreements, no "understanding" that Nato wouldn't move east.
It has never fucking happened. I don't give a shit what Burns says. It's a lie, a myth, a nothing-sandwich.
And you know what -- I don't believe that you're a moron or gullible. Unfortunately, it can only mean that you're dishonest.
If you found THAT Gorby interview, then you've found the other two, in which he clearly states that no guarantees have been ever made. The links to those are also provided in that Wikipedia page you used for your research. Gorby was a political animal. He said a lot of things contradicting each other.
Indeed, The Warsaw Pact (Soviet answer to Nato) still existed in 1989. It would've made zero sense to even discuss Nato expansion at the time.
If you were trying to discover the truth rather than prove the point, you'd mention it at least.[/QUOTE]I'll take the word of the current director of the CIA over yours, especially considering he was also ambassador to Russia and has worked on Russian-related matters at the State Department for the better part of his career. You conveniently ignore the National Security Archive/George Washington University link, documenting contemporaneous communications of western leaders that show that "Soviet and Russian complaints about being misled about NATO expansion" were well founded.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2937256] You have to understand that America controls NATO. They are the ones that call the shots. The rest of the Euros just fall in line like puppets. [/QUOTE]One more joke.
I do not remember, F or the to participate in Americas "Coalition of the Willing". Although being invited.
Then the USA was behind the coup in Ukraine in 2014 . < Obviously, you consider it a fact, that the CIA payed for the (tens of) thousands of Ukrainians on the Maidan.
And Putin acted. He didn't want NATO in Crimea and control the black sea, hence he seized Crimea < That was the beginning of his official aggression, correct.
And it had always been historically Russian. < To be specific, Crimea was Russian for about 250 years, since the first Russian annexion. And the forced exodus of the Tartars under Stalin.
Of course, you also say the USA is historically anglo American.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2937294]I didn't know that. If true[/QUOTE]I don't mean to be rude, but until or unless you say something new and back it up with verifiable facts, I have to cut our little interactions. Life's too short to waste even 10 minute a day trying to reason with a believer.
Why does Professor Blood Red always demand we write down his lunacies?
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2875229]I told everyone on this forum that Russia would win and to write that down. .[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2915933]Write this down: Ukraine will NEVER join NATO.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2937257]Ukraine will NEVER join NATO. Write this down. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2936344]a Russian victory. Write that down. Have a nice day.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2937333]I don't mean to be rude, but until or unless you say something new and back it up with verifiable facts, I have to cut our little interactions. Life's too short to waste even 10 minute a day trying to reason with a believer.[/QUOTE]
Well. You were rude. Not only are you cutting our interactions, but you used the "F" word in some of your posts.
Seriously, come on Xpartan. I agree with you about a valid point you made that I wasn't aware of, and you selectively quote me to make it sound like I don't agree. "I didn't know that. If true, [b]and I believe '1' is (true),[/b]"
I am a believer. A believer in reality. You conveniently ignore the verifiable facts I throw out. For example, the analysis in the Newsweek article, written by a very pro-Ukranian, anti-Russian journalist, the National Securities Archive/George Washington University site, and the writings of our CIA director who happens to be a Russia expert.
You probably realize this isn't as clear cut as you thought it was so you're looking for a way to bow out, none too gracefully. You should just admit it. "Tiny, you may be right, all sides in this dispute need to talk and work this out so the killing will come to an end." That's not hard to do.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2937337]Why does Professor Blood Red always demand we write down his lunacies?[/QUOTE]
Well. It depends on how you define "win" and "victory." In my book everyone's going to be a loser in this war. However, if you ignore all the dead Russians and Ukrainians and the damage to the Ukrainian economy and peoples' quality of life, then Blood Red may very well be right.
[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2937316]One more joke.
I do not remember, F or the to participate in Americas "Coalition of the Willing". Although being invited.
Then the USA was behind the coup in Ukraine in 2014 . < Obviously, you consider it a fact, that the CIA payed for the (tens of) thousands of Ukrainians on the Maidan.[/QUOTE]Don't you know about the history of the USA / CIA regarding regime change in countries? Have you not seen the videos of Victoria Newland in Kiev in 2014?
[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2937316]
And Putin acted. He didn't want NATO in Crimea and control the black sea, hence he seized Crimea < That was the beginning of his official aggression, correct.
And it had always been historically Russian. < To be specific, Crimea was Russian for about 250 years, since the first Russian annexion. And the forced exodus of the Tartars under Stalin.
Of course, you also say the USA is historically anglo American.[/QUOTE]Most of the population in Crimea are ethnic Russians. Why did Putin wait until 2014 to take Crimea? Because he saw the writing on the wall with the regime change in 2014 and what NATO was doing. Had he not acted, NATO would be in control of Crimea and the black sea. I for one am very glad that Putin pre empted it. NATO is pure evil. Ukraine will realize this very soon, if they haven't already. Like I said, Ukraine will NEVER EVER join NATO. So why was the neutrality that Putin demanded so bad? These are hard questions that Ukrainians will ask their horrible leadership one day.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2937374]
Well. It depends on how you define "win" and "victory." In my book everyone's going to be a loser in this war. However, if you ignore all the dead Russians and Ukrainians and the damage to the Ukrainian economy and peoples' quality of life, then Blood Red may very well be right.[/QUOTE]I think the definition of victory from a Russian perspective is very clear:
1. Russia keeping the 4 new territories + Crimea.
2. Ukraine adopting neutrality and never joining NATO.
Now, the longer this goes on, you can add Odessa and Kharkov to that list and possibly 2 more Oblasts. That's why Ukraine needs to sue for peace now as the peace conditions will only get tougher. Compare the scenario now to what was offered in Istanbul in 2022 March.
What will the Pro Ukrainians here consider victory once Russia wins? I am going to tell all here right now what the off ramp for NATO and all the neo cons and the delusional pro Ukrainian robots here will be:
1. Putin did not take Kiev in 3 days, so Ukraine won. LOL.
2. Ukraine still exists as a country and hence Putin didn't achieve his goal of wiping Ukraine off the map (he never wanted to do that, fools). LOL.
And yes, you may all write this down. We will see a few years from now who was right and who was wrong. If what I have said turns out to be wrong I will be the first one to admit it.
Cheers.
[QUOTE=VinDici;2749178]This is the reason why Russia destroyed the pipeline. Gazprom is in breach of their contracts for shutting down gas supply and can be sued because of it. The destroyed pipelines are supposed to be "force majeure" which would give them en excuse not to deliver.
They already played their leverage card by stopping the deliveries.
Try and live in reality, and not in clown world for a change.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=VinDici;2789099]Let me put it simply. There are long term supply contracts in place. If Russia simply stop delivering, they are in breach of contract, and every other country that has contracts with them will see that they are an unreliable partner who cannot be trusted to keep their word.
If suddenly the pipeline fails, then the result is same in that gas is not supplied, but RF is not in breach of contract.
This is why it is RF that did the bombing, so they could apply pressure on Europe without having to be in formal breach of contract.
As with most things, the simplest explanation is most often the truth.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2789192]That's right, but a small correction. It's not about their "reliability". Russia stopped worrying about their reputation a long time ago.
One irony of the attack is that Russias Gazprom potentially stands to benefit: it will no longer need to invent excuses not to supply Europe via Nord Stream 1. Now it can claim a force majeure, which will dramatically reduce the risk of compensation claims for non-delivered volumes. This logic, however, does not explain the damage caused to Nord Stream 2. On the other hand, the Nord Stream consortium companies and eventually Gazprom might even hope to collect some insurance for the damaged pipelines. Given that they already looked set to become a stranded asset, that would be far from the worst outcome for the giant company.
As for Nord Stream 2, it was useless anyway. It was never operational and probably never will be. There were no downsides for the Russians to blow it up.
[URL]https://carnegieendowment.org/politika/88062[/URL][/QUOTE]It turns out VinDici and Xpartan were wrong about the Nord Stream Pipeline sabotage. Ukraine did it. The effort was led by Valeriy Zaluzhniy, commander in chief of Ukraine's Armed Forces, reportedly against the wishes of Zelensky and the USA. The Germans are pissed. The Wall Street Journal broke the story in a lengthy investigative piece published today.
[URL]https://www.wsj.com/world/europe/nord-stream-pipeline-explosion-real-story-da24839c?mod=hp_lead_pos7[/URL]
The idea that Russia would have blown up the pipeline always sounded ridiculous to me. You don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
[QUOTE=ReinerOtto;2937316]
And Putin acted. He didn't want NATO in Crimea and control the black sea, hence he seized Crimea < That was the beginning of his official aggression, correct.[/QUOTE]That might've been a tetriary reason for Putin's aggression. Unlike his brainwashed electorate, Putin isn't scared of Nato. Nor did he really believe Nato would go into the Black Sea and chase the Russia's fleet out. Those're just scary stories for the masses.
The main reason he took Crimea (and started the war in Donbas at the same time) was to punish Ukraine for drifting away from Russia's "sphere of influence". He could tolerate Ukraine being a Russia's client like Belarus, but not as a truly independent country.
The second reason was his electorate that mostly rejoiced with the Crimea grab. They'd dreamed about it for years. The mythical threat from Nato might've been a distant third.
1. The war has officially come to Russia for the first time in 80 years. Over 1,000 square kilometers and 80 settlements in Kursk Region have been liberated by Ukraine, and the night is still young.
2. Nato has drastically enlarged with Sweden and Finland having added 830 new border miles with Russia thanks to one man's military genius.
3. Crimea is a string of empty beaches in the peak of the tourist season.
4. The Black Sea Fleet is reduced by over 30%. It's hiding in Novorossiysk and the Sea of Azov (and Ukraine hits them there too).
So it's safe to say the SMO goes steadily according to the plans of the best military strategist of all times: Vladimir Putin.
On a serious note, Ukraine was the beginning of Putin's downfall and it will be the end.
And oh yeah: Write that down, LOL!
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2937505]It turns out VinDici and Xpartan were wrong about the Nord Stream Pipeline sabotage. Ukraine did it. The effort was led by Valeriy Zaluzhniy, commander in chief of Ukraine's Armed Forces, reportedly against the wishes of Zelensky and the USA. The Germans are pissed. The Wall Street Journal broke the story in a lengthy investigative piece published today.
[URL]https://www.wsj.com/world/europe/nord-stream-pipeline-explosion-real-story-da24839c?mod=hp_lead_pos7[/URL][/QUOTE]I promised to reply when you come up with something new and not-laughable. Your link presents a persuasive argument. This qualifies.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2937505]The idea that Russia would have blown up the pipeline always sounded ridiculous to me. You don't cut off your nose to spite your face.[/QUOTE]And that one doesn't.
Amazing how little you know about the subject of your adoration. Launching a major war in Europe for no reason, which is PREDICTABLY going to destroy your own stability, economy, and reputation for tens of years if not centuries ahead, is a DEFENITION of cutting off your nose to spite your face. And this is what Russians have always done in the course of their history -- consistently and without fail!
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2937403]I think the definition of victory from a Russian perspective is very clear:
1. Russia keeping the 4 new territories + Crimea.
2. Ukraine adopting neutrality and never joining NATO.
Now, the longer this goes on, you can add Odessa and Kharkov to that list and possibly 2 more Oblasts. That's why Ukraine needs to sue for peace now as the peace conditions will only get tougher. Compare the scenario now to what was offered in Istanbul in 2022 March.
What will the Pro Ukrainians here consider victory once Russia wins? I am going to tell all here right now what the off ramp for NATO and all the neo cons and the delusional pro Ukrainian robots here will be:
1. Putin did not take Kiev in 3 days, so Ukraine won. LOL.
2. Ukraine still exists as a country and hence Putin didn't achieve his goal of wiping Ukraine off the map (he never wanted to do that, fools). LOL.
And yes, you may all write this down. We will see a few years from now who was right and who was wrong. If what I have said turns out to be wrong I will be the first one to admit it.
Cheers.[/QUOTE]Yeo, I have been saying that for over a year if Ukraine is not careful they will end up losing Odessa. What a mess, they should have been negotiating from day one. Now they will probably end up with next to nothing.
Ukraine joining NATO will never happen, Putin would Nuke them before letting that happen. Hopefully NATO will collapse after this disaster or if Trump becomes President, we pull out of NATO or make major changes. NATO is a joke, hopefully we will learn from this disaster, but I have my doubts.
Ukraine army is collapsing every where, but where they made slight gains into Russia, but at what cost. I think Ukraine will soon regret this stunt, yes, they made some PR gains, but at what cost? These were Ukraine best, they will never be able to keep them supplied. We will soon see, but Russia always has a plan and Ukraine / NATO is out of control. I do think that Russia was definitely caught off guard, but now they might be setting a trap for Ukraine, like they have done in the past.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2937337]Why does Professor Blood Red always demand we write down his lunacies?[/QUOTE]Xman you still have not answered my simple questions have you been to either Russia or Ukraine. You are one crazy and delusional person.
Russia's currently chairing the UN Security Council. And in their unfathomable wisdom they decided to use it to complain about Ukraine's incursion into Kursk Region. Because who's a victim here if not Russia, right?
So they convened an Arria-formula meeting, which is an informal meeting that allows Security Council members to air their grievances. Not that anyone gives a shit (this is UN after all). But it's probably therapeutic.
Well, not this time.
After presenting their "case" against evil Ukrainians, the Russians learned a lot of interesting tidbits from their colleagues.
[B]US[/B]: We are here because the RF has decided to try and shift blame onto Ukraine -- the victim of Moscow's brutal war and deflect attention away from the rampant devastation of Ukraine. The Kremlin must stop the war and stop using the Security Council to hide the truth about Moscow's own actions.
[B]Slovenia[/B]: We strongly reject any kind of political manipulation. Let me be clear: we will not recognize the aggressor as the victim. We denounce double standards. It is odd listening to accusations of IHL violations while the accuser is bombing critical energy infrastructure and children's hospitals.
[B]Japan[/B]: The aggressor must leave Ukraine. If the aggression stops, meetings like this won't be needed. Today's meeting is yet another example of Russian hypocrisy and the waste of UN resources. It is also another attempt by Russia to divert attention from what it is doing in Ukraine.
[B]Switzerland[/B]: Once again Russia uses an ARA formula to promote its biased vision of reality. Russia attempts to justify their military aggression against Ukraine will not convince anyone.
[B]France[/B]: France is today participating in this exercise of propaganda that Russia is deploying, with one goal in mind: to ensure that Russia's lies do not remain unanswered. Playing the same record of misinformation over and over again will not allow Russia to amend the facts or distort the reality of its horrible aggression against Ukraine. The maneuvers used by Russia to conceal these crimes come as no surprise to anyone. Once again, Moscow is adding to the indignity of killing civilians and children the indignity of lies and negationism.
[B]Korea[/B]: In February 2022, the Russian Federation invaded Ukraine in violation of the UN Charter and international law. We regret that Russia has called today's meeting an attempt to justify its illegal Invasion against Ukraine. Any accounts detailed today simply do not change the fact that Russia invaded its neighboring country in violation of its sovereignty, political independence, and territorial integrity.
[B]UK[/B]:
[QUOTE]Russia started this war. Russia has chosen to perpetuate this war. It was Russia's imperialist ambitions, which drove it to illegally annex Crimea in 2014 and cause an outbreak of conflict in the Donbas. And it was Russia who launched a full-scale Invasion into Ukraine.
Russia says it wants to discuss violations of international humanitarian law and other crimes. The United Kingdom welcomes such a discussion. As Russia reminds us all parties to a conflict are required to distinguish between military objectives and civilian objects. Yet Russia's destruction of energy infrastructures has wiped out 9 GW of Ukraine's power generation since March. And in July alone, 80 medical and educational facilities were damaged or destroyed by Russian attacks.
Since February 2022, OHCHR has recorded almost 200 cases of summary executions of Ukrainian civilians and prisoners of war and 263 cases of sexual violence, all perpetrated by members of Russian law enforcement and the armed forces. The independent International Commission of Inquiry established by the Human Rights Council has described Russia's use of torture against Ukrainian civilians and prisoners of war as widespread and systematic. 95 percent of prisoners of war report torture.
So let us be clear. This is Putin's war and the means by which he and his Armed Forces pursue it, which is the crime here. [/QUOTE]To tell you the truth, some UN members supported Russia, namely Syria and Belarus. A few others produced a lot of beautiful words without saying anything (Hello, China). So it's not like Russia was condemned by everyone -- only by those who matter.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2937582] is a DEFENITION[/QUOTE]I know, I should've checked, at least the word I capitalized. Apologies!
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2937622]Xman you still have not answered my simple questions have you been to either Russia or Ukraine. You are one crazy and delusional person.[/QUOTE]Delusional and dumb.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2937620]Yeo, I have been saying that for over a year if Ukraine is not careful they will end up losing Odessa. What a mess, they should have been negotiating from day one. Now they will probably end up with next to nothing.
Ukraine joining NATO will never happen, Putin would Nuke them before letting that happen. Hopefully NATO will collapse after this disaster or if Trump becomes President, we pull out of NATO or make major changes. NATO is a joke, hopefully we will learn from this disaster, but I have my doubts.
Ukraine army is collapsing every where, but where they made slight gains into Russia, but at what cost. I think Ukraine will soon regret this stunt, yes, they made some PR gains, but at what cost? These were Ukraine best, they will never be able to keep them supplied. We will soon see, but Russia always has a plan and Ukraine / NATO is out of control. I do think that Russia was definitely caught off guard, but now they might be setting a trap for Ukraine, like they have done in the past.[/QUOTE]It is nothing but a PR stunt, the Kursk incursion.
With regards to NATO, even a lot of the NATO members do not want Ukraine to join. And Russia will make sure Ukraine turns into a rump state that can never join NATO.
So once again, I ask the Pro Ukrainians here, why was neutrality so bad?
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2937505]It turns out VinDici and Xpartan were wrong about the Nord Stream Pipeline sabotage. Ukraine did it. The effort was led by Valeriy Zaluzhniy, commander in chief of Ukraine's Armed Forces, reportedly against the wishes of Zelensky and the USA. The Germans are pissed. The Wall Street Journal broke the story in a lengthy investigative piece published today.
[URL]https://www.wsj.com/world/europe/nord-stream-pipeline-explosion-real-story-da24839c?mod=hp_lead_pos7[/URL]
The idea that Russia would have blown up the pipeline always sounded ridiculous to me. You don't cut off your nose to spite your face.[/QUOTE]Tiny, you can just the gist of the story with these quotes:
It involved a small rented yacht with a six-member crew, including trained civilian divers. One was a woman, whose presence helped create the illusion they were a group of friends on a pleasure cruise.
But later, when the CIA learned of it and asked the Ukrainian president to pull the plug, he ordered a halt, those people said.
Zelensky's commander in chief, Valeriy Zaluzhniy, who was leading the effort, nonetheless forged ahead.
Armed only with diving equipment, satellite navigation, a portable sonar and open-source maps of the seabed charting the position of the pipelines, the crew set out.
Spending 20 minutes at that depth requires around three hours of decompression, and the person must then refrain from diving for at least 24 hours or risk serious injury.
Witnesses on other yachts moored in Sandhamn noted that the Andromeda was the only boat with a small Ukrainian flag hoisted on its mast.
End of quotes.
Now you have the Seymour Hersh version:
At the press briefing that followed, Biden defiantly said, "If Russia invades. . . There will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it. ".
According to the source, some of the senior officials of the CIA determined that blowing up the pipeline "no longer could be considered a covert option because the President just announced that we knew how to do it. ".
The waters of the Baltic Sea were heavily patrolled by the Russian navy, and there were no oil rigs that could be used as cover for a diving operation. Would the divers have to go to Estonia, right across the border from Russia's natural gas loading docks, to train for the mission? "It would be a goat fuck," the Agency was told.
Norway was the perfect place to base the mission.
The Norwegian navy was quick to find the right spot, in the shallow waters of the Baltic sea a few miles off Denmark's Bornholm Island. The pipelines ran more than a mile apart along a seafloor that was only 260 feet deep.
The Russian navy was known to possess surveillance technology capable of spotting, and triggering, underwater mines. The American explosive devices needed to be camouflaged in a way that would make them appear to the Russian system as part of the natural backgroundsomething that required adapting to the specific salinity of the water. The Norwegians had a fix.
The Americans provided one vital element: they convinced the Sixth Fleet planners to add a research and development exercise to the program. The exercise, as made public by the Navy, involved the Sixth Fleet in collaboration with the Navy's "research and warfare centers. " The at-sea event would be held off the coast of Bornholm Island and involve NATO teams of divers planting mines, with competing teams using the latest underwater technology to find and destroy them.
The C4 attached to the pipelines would be triggered by a sonar buoy dropped by a plane on short notice, but the procedure involved the most advanced signal processing technology. To avoid this, the sonar buoy, once in place, would emit a sequence of unique low frequency tonal soundsmuch like those emitted by a flute or a pianothat would be recognized by the timing device and, after a pre-set hours of delay, trigger the explosives.
On September 26,2022, a Norwegian Navy P8 surveillance plane made a seemingly routine flight and dropped a sonar buoy.
End of link page.
Here is the actual flight path of the plane: [URL]https://www.bitchute.com/video/v4yAPCqU22SG[/URL].
And then you have the British PM sending SOS Anthony Blinken a text on an unsecured line reading, "It's done. " [URL]https://www.bitchute.com/video/E22kNdO89rC0[/URL].
So you can see Tiny the WSJ article ranks up there with the lone gun man bit. Notice how the CIA, Zelensky, and Biden all tried so hard to prevent the blowing up of this pipeline and were made out to be the good guys? And then there was this idiocy proposed that the Russians had blown up their own pipeline. It flies in the face of the obvious question as to who benefits.
So you have one story where those doing the dive at 260 feet where you have 20 minutes to find and attaches bombs was done by a bunch of drunken Ukrainians and another saying it was Navy seals. To me, sure that Ukrainian team diving to 260 feet was possible. But finding the pipeline? You have Ukrainians using maps and sonar on a 30 foot yacht versus the Norwegian navy. Attaching explosives perfectly to the exact right spot and then having it detonate remotely sounds really hard. And the Ukrainians avoided all the Russian and European detection systems? All while diving from a boat with a Ukrainian flag on it?
The odds of Seymour Hersh's story being wrong and the WSJ one being correct I would put at 1000:1. Given those odds, the real question to me is why publish this now, and who is the target audience?
Doubling down against a house in a casino game to recoup losses is a proven strategy to get broke.
The June offer of a peace negotiations has been withdrawn.
Ukraine is a right arm of an ample body that fell and began to rot.
All the mechanisms, agencies and people behind the 2014 coup and the pathway to that disaster are known.
Now we have here old and impotent but not wise who try to justify it.
Hi Elvis, You have to subscribe to Hersh's substack to read the article, which I'm too lazy to do. He apparently based the story on a single source. The WSJ article is based on conversations with at least four "senior Ukrainian defense and security officials who either participated in or had direct knowledge of the plot," in addition to Germans and Dutch who investigated the case. Germany has DNA samples, fingerprints, and email, mobile and satellite communications linking the Ukrainians to the sabotage. It also has issued a warrant for the arrest of one of the Ukrainians, and several Ukrainians slipped out of foreign countries and returned to Ukraine to avoid prosecution or investigation.
I'd be very surprised if the WSJ article isn't substantially correct.
I agree that Zelensky may have been involved. I however also believe the USA Did indeed ask Ukraine to pull the plug on the operation. The sabotage was contrary to the best interests of the USA's ally, Germany and a number of other European countries. Prior to the attack, European natural gas prices were over $50/ MMBTU. Compare to around $2. 30/ MMBTU in the USA right now. Please recall the Nord Stream 1 pipeline, which was operational, was sabotaged, in addition to the new Nord Stream 2 pipeline. I don't think it made sense from the western European perspective to knock out the Nord Stream 1 pipeline. The loss of the pipeline was a blow to the continent's energy security, and along with the loss of additional supplies from Russia resulted in hardship and probably deaths. People were bankrupted by their electric bills in 2022.
I'm reading "Recreational dives typically reach about 130 feet, and technical dives often reach as deep as 260 feet." The group included four experienced deep-sea divers. The WSJ notes, "Ukraine has a long history of training top civilian and military divers. A naval base on the Crimean Peninsula in the past trained deep-sea divers for the purposes of sabotage and demining. It also kept combat dolphins trained to attack enemy divers and blow up ships, according to two senior Ukrainian officers." The Ukrainians wouldn't have been drunk when conducting the operation, and if they were partying in port, it was probably to provide cover that they were vacationers on holiday. Finally, although this was a shoestring operation, the saboteurs had the support of the Ukrainian military, including the commander in chief. The skipper and I believe other participants were Ukrainian military.
We both agree, it definitely wasn't Russia that did this. That was fiction spread by Ukraine and the neoconservatives. And Ukraine knew better.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2937889]
We both agree, it definitely wasn't Russia that did this. That was fiction spread by Ukraine and the neoconservatives[/QUOTE]Don't forget Russia is bombing the ZNPP as well LOL. So basically the Russians are bombing themselves. This fiction is hilarious. But what's funnier is that there are people dumb enough to believe it.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2937889]Hi Elvis, You have to subscribe to Hersh's substack to read the article, which I'm too lazy to do. He apparently based the story on a single source.[/QUOTE]Well, the flight plan was not a single source. The text sent by the English PM saying "it is done" was probably a Russian hack much like the infamous "fuck the EU" line was.
As for the Germans, they were the first ones who claimed the Russians did it. The USA exported a lot of natural gas so it benefitted us. Norway actually exports natural gas so they would have benefitted from the attack as well. There are two different groups in Germany: business which was likely furious at the bombing and the Germans in NATO who were happy about it. The countries that participated in the Sy Hersh story I do not believe were getting Russian natural gas. The other countries mentioned were England and the Netherlands.
Of course, patsies had to be cooked up. Yeah, there would be evidence, but I am not so sure how good it is.
We cannot know for sure, but I think that a lot of the pilots of "Ukrainian" unmanned drones are from NATO / the USA. The hardest parts of the operation were not getting to 250 feet but locating the pipeline, selecting the right spot to attack, and remotely detonating the bombs. NATO / the USA could have done the whole operation and had the Ukrainians involved as patsies.
The innocence of the Biden administration, Zelensky, and CIA is hard to stomach as is the yacht flying the Ukrainian flag. We agree the Russians did not do it, but I trust that Biden meant it when he said he was going to knock out that pipeline.
[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2937952] We agree the Russians did not do it, but I trust that Biden meant it when he said he was going to knock out that pipeline.[/QUOTE]OK Elvis, The spot price in Europe of natural gas is $50/ MMBTU. Gazprom is selling gas under contract through Nord Stream 1 pipeline at, say, $7. 00/ MMBTU, and Europe is building storage for the cold winter ahead. The price of imported coal is $400 a ton, up from $100 a year earlier. Europe is smack dab in the middle of its biggest energy crisis in history. So is Biden a big enough dumb ass to take out the Nord Stream pipelines? You bet he is. That doesn't mean the USA actually did it though.
Respectfully, your hypothesis that Biden's government would do it because it was in the best interest of the USA natural gas industry is wrong. He and his Progressive minders would do it because they're dumb asses. If they had their way, they'd shut down the domestic industry, throwing hundreds of thousands out of jobs, all in the quest to reduce carbon emissions. Which ironically would actually increase carbon emissions as coal replaced natural gas, but that's off topic. The only thing that has stopped them was domestic political considerations. If people in purple states and Congressional districts have to pay California prices for electricity, Democrats are toast come election time. Still, the Biden Administration has put a stop to issuance of permits for new LNG export facilities, figuring I guess that won't affect their party's electoral prospects for the next ten years or so.
Here's another example. When the war broke out, Europe and the USA impounded Russian sovereign assets, being dollars and Euros and bonds and the like, owned by the Russian government and held with western financial institutions. About $6 billion is held in the USA, and around $250 billion in Europe. With almost unanimous support from Democrats, and the votes of a lot of Republicans, Biden pushed through legislation that gives him the power to steal the $6 billion in impounded assets, sell them, and send the money to Ukraine. Now, assets held by USA Companies and institutions and individuals in Russia are far higher than Russian assets held in the USA. I imagine there are over $100 billion in Russian assets held by USA interests. So what does Russia do? It passes a law that if Biden actually steals Russian assets, then the Russian state, companies and individuals can go after assets held by Americans in Russia. And, again, the assets held by the Americans are much larger. Not only that, but if the Europeans and Americans actually liquidate Russian sovereign assets, it's going to make it harder to negotiate a peace agreement. Will that stop Biden from expropriating Russian assets? Hell no, because he's a dumb ass.
Anyway, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. You've pointed out circumstantial evidence against the USA and Norway. IMO the direct evidence unearthed by the WSJ reporters outweighs that, and I don't believe the USA played a part in the sabotage of the pipeline. The Ukrainians beat Biden to it. I would hope that if Biden did try to blow up the pipelines, cooler heads in the USA Defense and State Departments would have prevailed, but who knows.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2938065]... He and his Progressive minders would do it because they're dumb asses...Will that stop Biden from expropriating Russian assets? Hell no, because he's a dumb ass...[/QUOTE]Then, who do you regard as a clever strategist and as being intelligent?
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2938076]Then, who do you regard as a clever strategist and as being intelligent?[/QUOTE]Blood Red.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2938090]Blood Red.[/QUOTE]Excellent!
[QUOTE=Questner;2937872]Doubling down against a house in a casino game to recoup losses is a proven strategy to get broke.[/QUOTE]Couldn't agree more, but Russia is not the house here, LOL.
Russia is a bum who went into the casino, put every penny she had on red, and lost.
The end is coming.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2937668]It is nothing but a PR stunt, the Kursk incursion.[/QUOTE]How nice! Why can't Russians occupiers come up with stunts like this, I wonder. Just don't tell me that Russians don't like PR because they live for it.
Why have the Russians taken less territory in the last three months than Ukrainians in one week?
Why did Ukrainian civilians go against the invaders with everything they got: from axes to Molotov cocktails to tractors, while Russian civilians either flee or yell "Glory to Ukraine"?
Any way you cut it, this whole thing has been a disaster for Putin! He totally miscalculated and has gotten himself into far more than he ever bargained for:
[URL]https://www.businessinsider.com/maps-show-russian-territory-ukraine-said-captured-kursk-advances-2024-8[/URL]
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2938150]
Why have the Russians taken less territory in the last three months than Ukrainians in one week?[/QUOTE]Hi Xpartan,
Seeing that you have a third-grade education, I will answer this silly question.
The territory that Ukraine has walked into, occupied, whatever you want to call it, was very lightly guarded by inexperienced border patrol and not by proper battle hardened soldiers. There were also no fortifications really. The area that Ukraine has occupied or claims to occupy has no strategic significance. Now the reason why Russia has taken less territory is because the Russians are fighting in the Donbas to capture the most heavily fortified places where the fighting is ongoing. Starting from Avdivka and to its west, these areas are the lynch pin of the Bandera defenses to the remaining parts of the Donetsk that are still under Ukrainian control (Kramatorks, Sloviansk, Chasiv Yar). Remember how long it took the Russians to capture Bakhmut, another heavily fortified city which the actor Zelensky used to call Fortress Bakhmut. These cities have been heavily fortified since 2014.
Your lesson for today.
King regards,
BR.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2938297]...Now the reason why Russia has taken less territory is because the Russians are fighting in the Donbas ..[/QUOTE]Whatever the strategic objective of the Ukrainian counter offensive actually is, it has already acheived a great success -- discombobulating Russian propaganda. Oh, how wonderful it is to see the Kremlin shills squirm, sweat, obfuscate, twist, tie themselves into knots, back track and lie.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2938392]Whatever the strategic objective of the Ukrainian counter offensive actually is, it has already acheived a great success -- discombobulating Russian propaganda. Oh, how wonderful it is to see the Kremlin shills squirm, sweat, obfuscate, twist, tie themselves into knots, back track and lie.[/QUOTE]The Ukrainian incursion into Kursk will have no impact on the final outcome of this war, which will be a Russian victory.
[QUOTE=TheCane;2938235]Any way you cut it, this whole thing has been a disaster for Putin! He totally miscalculated and has gotten himself into far more than he ever bargained for:
[URL]https://www.businessinsider.com/maps-show-russian-territory-ukraine-said-captured-kursk-advances-2024-8[/URL][/QUOTE]Walking into a territory is one thing. Holding it, sustaining it is a whole different ballgame.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2938297]Hi Xpartan,
Seeing that you have a third-grade education, I will answer this silly question.
The territory that Ukraine has walked into, occupied, whatever you want to call it, was very lightly guarded by inexperienced border patrol and not by proper battle hardened soldiers. There were also no fortifications really. The area that Ukraine has occupied or claims to occupy has no strategic significance. Now the reason why Russia has taken less territory is because the Russians are fighting in the Donbas to capture the most heavily fortified places where the fighting is ongoing. Starting from Avdivka and to its west, these areas are the lynch pin of the Bandera defenses to the remaining parts of the Donetsk that are still under Ukrainian control (Kramatorks, Sloviansk, Chasiv Yar). Remember how long it took the Russians to capture Bakhmut, another heavily fortified city which the actor Zelensky used to call Fortress Bakhmut. These cities have been heavily fortified since 2014.
Your lesson for today.
King regards,
BR.[/QUOTE]So, the Ukrainians did build the fortifications in anticipation of Russia's attack, and you didn't?
In other words, Russia fucked up? Thank you for confirming this, since there is no other way to interpret your reply.
You're waging a full-blown war on a neighboring country for almost three years. All your Kyiv in 3 days (2 days / 1 week /2 weeks) phantasies are long gone.
You throw at Ukrainians all you've got leaving your own borders vulnerable.
And yet, instead of building an impenetrable line of defense, you allowed several thousands Ukrainian troops walk in, kill hundreds of your soldiers, take prisoners another 2,000, and capture over 440 square miles of territory.
And it's not like you have no idea how to build defenses. The Surovikhin line held up quite nicely last year.
And it's not like you didn't see the danger. Kursk received 15 billion rubles to build the fortifications. Of course, your rubles are just a pale shadow of what it used to be, but hey, 15 billions is still a nice chunk.
What happened to this money, pray tell?
So, once again thank you for confirming what I already knew, but I don't think your supervisors will be happy with your lesson plans.
And BTW, you've failed to explain why Russian civilians have no desire to fight against Ukrainian liberators. Could you insert this topic in your curriculum?
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2938419]The Ukrainian incursion into Kursk will have no impact on the final outcome of this war, which will be a Russian victory.[/QUOTE]In February 2022, Ukrainian civilians were out in the streets, obstructing, fighting, resisting. Ukrainian babuskas were cursing and spitting on Russian troups. The government was passing out rifles like mad. In spite of this, resistance to the vaunted Russian war machine was predicted to be futile. And yet it succeeded largely by will and spirit. My question is why do is there none of that in Kursk Oblast? Where are the partisans? Where is the Russian civilian resistance? Where are the Russian babuskas? To me, this says everything about the war.
This is less about Ukraine winning, than Russia failing. What do you suppose is going to happen then in Dagestan, Ingushetia, Chechnya, Karelia -- even Kalinigrad? Where are the foreign legionnaires currently fighting in Ukraine: the Dagestanis, Chechens, Crimeans, Siberians going to go? Do you expect them all to just peacefully return to their lands? Frankly, I don't see it.
Okay, so you're living abroad somewhere in Dubai, UAE or wherever. Maybe you have a dollar bank account, a girlfriend, and good wifi. You stream Russian TV and are reassured by it. But have you given any thought to what you will feel and do once the RF collapses?
The nature of belief is strange. Once you believe in a narrative it is difficult emotionally to let it go. Like any addiction, it is difficult, maybe nearly impossible to abandon it by yourself. The process of unbelieving is usually only started by a traumatic loss. I'm suggesting that's what is going to happen to you. Prepare for it.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2938420]Walking into a territory is one thing. Holding it, sustaining it is a whole different ballgame.[/QUOTE]It's not about that. It's not even about the strategic significance of the territory. It's all about the psychological significance. The invasion has lifted the spirits of the Ukrainians and further damaged the morale of the Russians. Invaders on Russian soil again! And as others have said, this display of weakness on Russia's part might encourage its other enemies to act as well. Not good. Not good at all! Putin has totally fucked up! Well, the world already knew that much.
[QUOTE=TheCane;2938497]And as others have said, this display of weakness on Russia's part might encourage its other enemies to act as well. Not good. [/QUOTE]Exactly! Stalin's catastrophic handling of the 1939 Winter War emboldened Hitler and pushed him to attack in 1941.
And it's not just enemies who're encouraged to act. Putin's "friends" are encouraged too, and for a good reason.
During the Second Opium War in 19th century a Russian diplomat inserted himself as a broker between a Chinese Emperor and Anglo-French allied command. He managed to convince both parties to funnel the negotiations through him and using the art of deception and blackmail annexed almost 1 million square kilometers without firing a single shot.
The Far East Russian port Vladivostok and its surroundings used to be a historic Chinese province called Haishenwai, and that's the name China still uses on their maps [B]even today[/B] despite their "limitless friendship" horseshit heralded by Chairman Xi. The Chinese leaders must be winking at each other and wonder: What the hell are we waiting for, LOL?
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2938431]So, the Ukrainians did build the fortifications in anticipation of Russia's attack, and you didn't?
In other words, Russia fucked up? Thank you for confirming this, since there is no other way to interpret your reply.
You're waging a full-blown war on a neighboring country for almost three years. All your Kyiv in 3 days (2 days / 1 week /2 weeks) phantasies are long gone.
You throw at Ukrainians all you've got leaving your own borders vulnerable.
And yet, instead of building an impenetrable line of defense, you allowed several thousands Ukrainian troops walk in, kill hundreds of your soldiers, take prisoners another 2,000, and capture over 440 square miles of territory.
And it's not like you have no idea how to build defenses. The Surovikhin line held up quite nicely last year.
And it's not like you didn't see the danger. Kursk received 15 billion rubles to build the fortifications. Of course, your rubles are just a pale shadow of what it used to be, but hey, 15 billions is still a nice chunk.
What happened to this money, pray tell?
So, once again thank you for confirming what I already knew, but I don't think your supervisors will be happy with your lesson plans.
And BTW, you've failed to explain why Russian civilians have no desire to fight against Ukrainian liberators. Could you insert this topic in your curriculum?[/QUOTE]Russia did let their guard down and fucked up, there is no denying that. But as I have already said, this stunt from Ukraine will have no impact on the final outcome.
P. S Pay attention to where the real battle is, in the Donbas.
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2938453]In February 2022, Ukrainian civilians were out in the streets, obstructing, fighting, resisting. Ukrainian babuskas were cursing and spitting on Russian troups. The government was passing out rifles like mad. In spite of this, resistance to the vaunted Russian war machine was predicted to be futile. And yet it succeeded largely by will and spirit. My question is why do is there none of that in Kursk Oblast? Where are the partisans? Where is the Russian civilian resistance? Where are the Russian babuskas? To me, this says everything about the war.
This is less about Ukraine winning, than Russia failing. What do you suppose is going to happen then in Dagestan, Ingushetia, Chechnya, Karelia -- even Kalinigrad? Where are the foreign legionnaires currently fighting in Ukraine: the Dagestanis, Chechens, Crimeans, Siberians going to go? Do you expect them all to just peacefully return to their lands? Frankly, I don't see it.
Okay, so you're living abroad somewhere in Dubai, UAE or wherever. Maybe you have a dollar bank account, a girlfriend, and good wifi. You stream Russian TV and are reassured by it. But have you given any thought to what you will feel and do once the RF collapses?
.[/QUOTE]The only collapse you should be concerned about is that of the AFU. And I am not saying it's imminent, but it's the only collapse we shall see, if there is one.
[QUOTE=TheCane;2938497]It's not about that. It's not even about the strategic significance of the territory. It's all about the psychological significance. The invasion has lifted the spirits of the Ukrainians and further damaged the morale of the Russians. Invaders on Russian soil again! And as others have said, this display of weakness on Russia's part might encourage its other enemies to act as well. Not good. Not good at all! Putin has totally fucked up! Well, the world already knew that much.[/QUOTE]Russia got caught with their pants down, there is no denying that.
The real Ukrainian objective in Kursk was to capture the Kursk Nuclear Power Plant, something they failed to do. Now as you can see, they are constantly changing the reason for the incursion. Sometimes they are saying it was to exchange prisoners, to improve their negotiation position for the future, and now this non sense about creating a buffer zone. The real reason was the KNPP, they failed to capture that, and I don't think they will be able to do so now.
The real battle is taking place right now in Donetsk and the Bandera positions are slowly collapsing. A very important battle is taking place in Pokrovsk, a very heavily fortified city and supply route.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2938782]The only collapse you should be concerned about is that of the AFU. And I am not saying it's imminent, but it's the only collapse we shall see, if there is one.[/QUOTE]Can you point to a single, correct prediction you have made in the last 2.5 years?
[QUOTE=JohnClayton;2938792]Can you point to a single, correct prediction you have made in the last 2.5 years?[/QUOTE]Sure.
I predicted the Banderite counter offensive in 2023 would fail and it did. It failed so badly actually that even I was shocked. I thought they'd at least reach Tokmak. As for the rest of my predictions, I have already listed them. I have only been active on this forum for the past few months or so. The most important prediction is one I have repeated many times, namely Russia winning and keeping the 4 new territories + Crimea and Ukraine never joining NATO.
[QUOTE=Tiny12;2936651]Paulie, Please see reply in American Politics thread[/QUOTE]There's plenty of content from my last several posts to you to reply to here, where everything is on topic, that you completely skipped over. Though we already have your mindset memorized by heart by now, give the posts a go, point by point. One is obvious parody. Or, continue to leave them alone, or cherry pick and attack your caricatures, shift to whataboutisms / false equivocations and "deep state" conspiracy theories, or type out another essay of Kremlin propaganda. I trust most here will notice when you fail to take on the content. If not then it doesn't matter, as the war isn't going to be settled in this monger microcosm.
P.S. Do you really think it scores you some credibility when you claim you aren't voting for Trump? LOL I suppose anything that helps you avoid defending the many dumb statements you've made is helpful.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2938419]The Ukrainian incursion into Kursk will have no impact on the final outcome of this war, which will be a Russian victory.[/QUOTE]We heard all that bravado the first week.
[QUOTE=Xpartan;2938671]
The Far East Russian port Vladivostok and its surroundings used to be a historic Chinese province called Haishenwai, [/QUOTE]The Chinese can capture even more land in that area, using Putlers words: Because historically Chinese.
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2937620]Yeo, I have been saying that for over a year if Ukraine is not careful they will end up losing Odessa. What a mess, they should have been negotiating from day one. Now they will probably end up with next to nothing.
Ukraine joining NATO will never happen, Putin would Nuke them before letting that happen. Hopefully NATO will collapse after this disaster or if Trump becomes President, we pull out of NATO or make major changes. NATO is a joke, hopefully we will learn from this disaster, but I have my doubts. [/QUOTE]This buffoon is the hands down winner in the failed predictions count. He's been around since day one, and hasn't gotten anything right yet. The sky is always falling in the US and the Ukraine, while he ignores all rebuttals that correct what he's decided from the start to believe. Check his post history. Russia is short on allies, while China is dead set against nuclear escalation. The world also isn't safe once tyrants realize they can get whatever they want by rattling the nuclear saber. The joke is YOU, but you're still too stupid to get it.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2938829]Sure.
I predicted the Banderite counter offensive in 2023 would fail and it did. It failed so badly actually that even I was shocked. I thought they'd at least reach Tokmak. As for the rest of my predictions, I have already listed them. I have only been active on this forum for the past few months or so. The most important prediction is one I have repeated many times, namely Russia winning and keeping the 4 new territories + Crimea and Ukraine never joining NATO.[/QUOTE]So you don't have any proof of any fulfilled prophecies. Or if you do, then post them here.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2938785]Russia got caught with their pants down, there is no denying that.
The real Ukrainian objective in Kursk was to capture the Kursk Nuclear Power Plant, something they failed to do. Now as you can see, they are constantly changing the reason for the incursion. Sometimes they are saying it was to exchange prisoners, to improve their negotiation position for the future, and now this non sense about creating a buffer zone. The real reason was the KNPP, they failed to capture that, and I don't think they will be able to do so now.
The real battle is taking place right now in Donetsk and the Bandera positions are slowly collapsing. A very important battle is taking place in Pokrovsk, a very heavily fortified city and supply route.[/QUOTE]When you say "they," I assume you are talking about the Ukrainian army. Link us to the sources where Ukrainian officials have revealed their objectives, and where the same have desperately changed their story. Even if available it could be a ruse. According to some sources the Ukrainians have blown up two bridges in the Kursk region, heavily damaged an airport and fuel depot, while there's some video evidence. These aren't official sources. Tell us more about the "slowly collapsing positions in Donetsk and Bandera," with links to your source material. Yours is an easy game to play. You come pontificating day after day while making predictions, but I've never seen any links, no source materials. There's no evidence of any fulfilled predictions while the outcome of the war, and perhaps the fate of Putin is yet to be determined. Where are you getting your information? All we see so far is an apparent fellow traveler for fun with a lot of unsubstantiated claims and predictions. Source citations are academics 101. Show us where you are getting your information. If you refuse, then it's fair to assume that you are embarrassed by it.
The "real war" is everywhere it's fought, and covers both the material and psychological. Heavy focus in one area leaves gaps elsewhere. And the Ukrainians despise you, and probably will for generations, while most of the Russian population seems indifferent. That's quite a contrast. Even if Russia manages to conquer Ukraine your enforcers will be looking over their shoulders for a very long time. Based on my many interactions the Ukrainian focus is on Russia, unlike the US that focuses mostly on Putin.
P.S. To the audience, take notice if he keeps talking as if he's an expert but posts no links.
[QUOTE=BloodRed;2938785]The real Ukrainian objective in Kursk was to capture the Kursk Nuclear Power Plant, something they failed to do. Now as you can see, they are constantly changing the reason for the incursion. Sometimes they are saying it was to exchange prisoners, to improve their negotiation position for the future, and now this non sense about creating a buffer zone. [/QUOTE]RUSSIA says the power plant was the Ukrainian objective, thus it's clear where Blood Red is getting his information. Afterall, he asserts that Alexi Navalny died of natural causes. Tiny has yet to tell us what he thinks about that, but completely dodged the question. But then we get this strident, exaggerated language, "constantly changing the reason" for the incursion, though a buffer zone, a move to draw troops away from Donetsk, plus gather prisoners are none mutually exclusive. Of course he believes and predicts it will all amount to failure, though some sources report substantial prisoner hauls and there's photos, while reportedly a third bridge near Kursk was just destroyed.
But Moscow has a very long history of getting the real story out to the world, so we should just believe them, right? Wink Guys skip the middle men. You don't need BR and Tiny. It's all in Google. Just comes here for the predictions, as the propaganda sources often don't include these.
P.S. I still want to see your links. You've never posted a single one best I've seen.